Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 20 OCTOBER 1931

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1414 Questions. [ASSE:.\IBL Y.] Questions.

TUESDAY, 20 OCTOBER, 1931.

Mr. :"-PEAKER (Hon. C. Taylor, TVinclsor) took the chair at 2.30 p.m.

QCESTIONS.

GovERK'IlExr GrARAXTEE TO PEAXUT BoAHD.

Mr. DUNLOI' (Rockhampton) asked the Secretary for Agriculture--

" 1. \Vhat amount did the Government guarantee to the Peanut Board of Queensland, and what amount has been paid back to the Commonwealth Bank?

" 2. What was the total cost of erect· ing silos at Kingaroy for peanut pur· poses?

" 3. W"hat amount has so far been paid off these silos?"

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. H. F. \Valker, Cooroora) replied-

" 1. £42,455 4s. Id. was guaranteed by the Government on account of the Queensland Peanut Growers' Co-operative Association, Limited. The association has paid back £16,578 19s. 4d. to the Com· monwealth Bank, leaving a balance out· standing of £25,876 4s. 9d.

"2. Approximately £55,000. "3. See answer to No. 1.:)

EXPENDITcRE OX BUFFALO FLY IXVESTI· GATIO:K;).

Mr. A. JONES (Burl.·t) asked the Secre­tary for Agriculture-

" 1. \Vhat expenditure has the State incurred in connection with the buffalo fly mYestigations to date?

"2. From what source was this expen­diture met?

" 3. \Yhat i<S the estim'ated cost of providing spraying facilities at Kajabbi?

" 4. \Yhat additional plants, if any, is it proposed to erect, and in what locality are these to be situated?"

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. H. F. Walker, Coo>·oom) replied-

" 1. £1.415 Ss. 9d., exclusive of salaries.

lHon. W. H. Barr~oes.

" 2. From the votes of the Department of Agriculture and Stock.

" 3. Tenders will be cdled for the p]a!lt, and it would therefore be injudici­ous to publish the departmental estimate for the work.

" 4. :!'\ o other plants lu1 ye, as yet, been decided upon."

\VHEAT AGREE}IEKT AXD COST OF BREAD.

).1r. BULCOC'K (llarcoo) asked the Secre­tnry for Agriculture-

" In view of the fact that the wheat agreement has ]eel to an increase in the price of bread, ''ill he make such papers as bear on the matter available for the perusal of n1en1bers ?''

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. H. F. ·walker, Cooroora) replied-

" As prcviomly intimated, the agree· mcnt is between the millers and the \Vhcat Board, neither of whom represent the Crown. There is no objection to any honourable member perusing, for his own information, any papers my department has relatiYe to the matter. Bread to-day can be obtdned in Brisbane at a price lower than that prevailing at the time the agreen1ent \Yas entered into."

DETAILS OF ExPEKDITcRE OF STATE CREDIT BALANCE IX COJI:\IOXWEA:I.TH BANK, Lo:-iDOJ'i.

Mr. PEASE (Hub, rt) asked the Trea-surer-

"The Auditor-G0c1eral's report for 1929, page 26, stated that on the 30th J unc, 1929, there was £3.045,149 to the State's credit in the Commonwealth Bank. London; will he supply details showing how this amount was expended, and the dates of each withdrawal?"

The TREASuRER (Hon. W. H. Barnes, TVynnum) repli<:d-

" Of the sum of £3,045,149, £538,154 was expended in pavment of discount and charges on account ~f the conversion loan floated to redeem the loan of £12,403,734, which matured on the 1st July, 1929. The balance >Yas expended in meeting com­mitn1ents in connection \vith interest on the oyerseas debt and ordinary disburse­l11Lnts by the Agent-General."

FEES TO 11EliiBERS OF PHARMACY BOARD, AND· RECEIPTS AND DISBcRS::"rENTS OF BoARD.

Mr. KIRWAN (Brisbane) asked the Home Secretary-

" 1. In connection with the payments made to members of the Pharmacy Board, under ''hat section of ' The Pharmacy Act of 1917 ' arc these pay• ments made, including the amount paid to the president?

"2. If there is no statutory authority for the payment of these fees, what action, if any, does he propose to take?

" 3. \Yhat is the total amount received bv the board as license fees for each of the years from 1918 to 1930, inclusi>'e?

"4. \Vhat disbursements have been made by the board for each of the years

Questions. [20 OcTOBER.] Qurstions. 1415

1918 to 1930, inclusi,·e-(a) (b) extra donations; (c) honorariums; and (d) rent?"

donations; gifts or

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. C. Peterson, cTonnanby) replied-

" 1. Payments were made to members of the Pharmacy Board and allO\Yances to the chairman since the inception of the board under the belief th".t such were authorised by law, but since the board ascertained from its legal ad,-isors that such payments w 2re not sanctioned by law they haYe ceased to be made. There is nothing wrong in the principle of paying members of boards of the

[I (a) \ Donations. j

--------------~------~

, £ s. d. 1

m8 • ~ 1919 I Xi! I 192o ' zoo o o I 1921 fl50 0 0 • 1922 58l 6 8 j i2~r m 1~ 2 1 1925 677 6 8 !

1926 818 2 () 1927 41fl 0 0 1928 1,160 0 0 1929 566 () 0 1930 l ,OGG 0 0

nature of the Pharmacy Board, and, glncrally speaking, it is of common appli­cation. The payments were never ques­tioned by officet·s of the Audit Depart--ment.

"2. An amendment of the law to cmpmver the board to make such pay­:mcnts is under consideration.

" 3. 1918, £42; 1919. £279 6s. ; 1920, £246 15s. ; 1921. £583 16s.; 1922, £638 Ss. ; 1923, £705 12s. ; 1924, £716 2s.; 1925. £785 13s. ; 1926, £808 10s. ; 1927, £821 2s. ; 1928. £921 18s. ; 1929, £892 IG;. ; and 1930, £966.

"4-

E~{= ·--:~~~r--~~~~-~:~2t. __ Donations. Honorariums. _ __

£ s. d. 1 £ 8. d. £ 8. Nil Nil Nil l\il Nil Nii Nil Xi! Xi! Nil ::'i'il ::'i'il Nil

d. ! Xi! 31 10 0 Xi! 126 0 0

Nil 'I 146 10 0 Xi! 398 13 4 Xi! Xi! Xi! Nil

Kil I Nil l\il Nil Nil Nil

5 5 0 Nil

n ii g 1 ~n 18 18 0 Nil

·--~~-------~

ARE-\ OF LAXD FREEHOLDED IX 1930-31.

Mr. BUL\'OGK (Ba,·coo): I desire to ask the Secretarv for Public Lands ,vhether he has answers to the following questions which I addressed to him on 8th October:-

ExTEXSIO){ oF LEASE oF ALrcE DowNs, BLACKALL DISTRICT.

" 1. 'What area of land was frceholded during the last financial year?

"2. What was the average price per acre in respect of the various tenures freeholded'

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. W. A. Deacon, Cunningham) replied­

" I now table a return giving the information desired.

1. Area.-Selections, 221,147 acres; other lands, 4,942 acres-total, 226,089 acres.

2. Average price-Agricultural farms. 13s. nd. per acre; unconditional sdections, £1 Os. 4d. per acre; prickly­pear selections, ls. 9!!cl. per acre ; town allotments, £109 per acre; suburban allotments, £14 Ss. 6cL per acre; and country lands, 17s. 2d. per acre.''

' '

Mr. BULCOCK (Barcoo): I desire to ask the Secretarv for Public Lands whether he has answers to the following questions which I addressed to him on 8th October :-

" 1. Has the lease of Alice Downs, in the Blacka 11 district, been extended, or is it proposed to extend it?

" 2 If so what are the details of such . extension ?

" 3. \Vhat leases, under the jurisdic­tion of the Barcaldine Lands Office, have been extended since June, 1930? "

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. W. A. Deacon, Cunningham) replied-

" 1 and 2. The lessee, the executors of the estate of A. H. Whittingham, deceased, mc.de application under tho Government's wool relief schem., for an extension of the lea· e of A lice Downs Holding, Mitchell district. Particulars of the holding and Government';; decision on the application are as follow:-

Area. Present Le1se I Extension of Expire~. Lr~L~e Granted.

188} s~uare m;~ ~l Decem b:, 1933~~0 years

Resumption Rights Resen·ed to Crown.

I Half of the present area of the holding on

31st De,•emher, 1933; quarter of the present area of the holding on 31st December, 1038.

Kew reassessn1ent l)eriod to conunenre on 1st January, HJ3-1.

" 3. I table a return giving i>he infor­mation desired.

Return showing the pastoral holdings in the Barcaldine land agent's dis­trict which have been extended under the Government's wool relief scheme,

and the pastoral holdings in the same districts the leases of which have been adjusted by the Government since June, 1930. All extensions and adjustments have been made on the recommendation of the Land Administration Board.

1416 Quectio.1~·. [ASSEl\IBL Y.] Questions.

PASTORAL IlOLDIKGS IK THE BARrALDIXE DISTRICT EXTEKDED cKDER THE GOVJ<'llN>!ENT'S WOOL RELIEP SCHE"!E. ____ , __________________________ ,

I ' I i Extension I

Ho1dir.g. of Lease Resumption Rights Granted Reserved to Crown.

(iu years).

' Area. I Present Lease ! Sq. }liles. Expires.

A de long .. I \V. H. Langdon

Anthony Xorth A. H. Whittingham, deceased

:BarcnlnhH F. IL Doxat and E. Y. Reid

lOt 30 June,

H8 30 .June, (ex stu 1

mu)

I I

193J

1985 10

10

I

i 19~± 10

I

i Present rrsum}Jtion

right of seven­sixteenths of the holding to be Ltken at any time, to stand.

Nil.

Half of the present area on 30th .J unc, 19~4; one-sixth of present area on

j 30th June, 1939.

}~.n area of G5,500 acrt·3 of this holding is to be grante-d to the lessees as a stud holding, the particulars of 'Yhirh are set out hereunder.

Barcoorah ..

noongoondoo

Evora

EYora Exchange

Home Creek

J~anre Yale ..

Spurway

Stainburn Do,vns ..

Strasburg

The Scottish Aus- :

I

tralian Invt·i{tment : Co., Ltd. :

·

1

· The Enniskillen 1

Pastoral Co., Ltd. Evora Pastoral Co.,

Ud. : Evora Pastoral Co., i

1

I Ltd. I P. R. Doxat and !

E.Y.l-teid

· A. H. Whittingham, dre~::ased

, The Enniskillen : Pastoral Co., Ltd. 1 M. M. L. Steele

' The .Enniskillen Pastoral Co., Ud.

131}

13Gl}

145~-

37

73

51~-

30 June,

30 June,

30 June,

1, 30 June,

30 June,

30 June,

30 June,

! 30 Sept.,

30 June,

1940

19J9

1934

1031

1934

1939

1929

193±

10

10

10

10

10

5

10

Nil (mostly desert country).

Nil (desert country).

Nil (very heavily improved).

Nil (very heavily improved).

Half of the preoent area on 30th June, 1934 ; one-sixth of present area on 30th June. 1939.

Nil. .

Nil.

Nil.

Nil.

In all the above cc.scs a new rental re •sseo,ment reriod commences at the expiration of the present lease. The Land Court will redetermine the rent for the period of the lease as exterderl.

PASTORAL HOIDINGS IN THE BARCALDIKE LAND AGENT'S DISCNIICT THE LEASES 0}' WHICH HAYE BEEN AD.TliSTED BY THE LAND AmiiNISTRATION BOARD SINCE JUNE, 1930.

------- --- --;-----;-----------;-------·--·

Holding. Lcs..::~ee. 1 (Sq. i\11.)

1 Lease. Reserved to Crown.

I Area. I Term of New I Resumption Rights

_B_o_" __ e_n_D_o_w-·n-s -s-•-.t-td ____ i The Scottish Australian 1

1

' 76 130 years from ,

1

1 Nil. (Stud conditions-Investment Co., Ltd.

1

1st July, 1930 4,000 stud Merino ewes i I to be maintained and

I 1 I 750 pure Merino rams

Coreena Stud

Gray Rock ( ron1prlsing former Gray Rock and Pittsburg Holdings)

Rodney Downs Stud

I 1 1 to be sold each year to

' Coreena Stud Sheep, G9 I 20 w 1rs from Nil. (Stud conditions-I

. grazing selectors.)

, Umited I 1st ,Tuly, 1930 2,500 stud Merino ewes I I to be maintained and

Goldsborough, and Co., Ltd.

Shannon Ltd.

and

Mort,

Sons,

1

1

1

500 pure Merino rams I to be sold each year to

, grazing selectors.) 55 j' =o years from Quarter at any time ;

1st July, 1931 further quarter after

I i 30th June, 1946.

55 30 years from Nil. (Stud conditions-' 1st July, 1930 3,000 stud Merinos ewes ': to be maintained and I 500 pure Merino ran1s · to be sold each year to : grazing selectors.)

Texas (Pastoral Dewlop- Members of Brookes 152 ll 30 years from

1

Nil. Holding is subject ment Lease) family

Widgeman (Preferential Pastoral Lease, compris­ing former G.F. 183 Bar­caldine and Clnnie Creek Holding)

L. 1\. llfciver

1st Jan., 1932 to improvement cc>ndi-1 tions.

90 ! 30 years from I Nil. I 1st Oct., 1931 1

I I I

Vag·r-:znls, Gaming, and [20 OCTOBER.] Ut her V ffences Bill. 1417

New leases hwe been offered to the lessees of the following land•, but the J•r •posa's have not yet been finalised:-

Holding. Lessee. Area. Crown's Offer. -------------------------------------

1 Barcaldine Stud

Acres. [ F. R. Doxat and E. V. : 65,500 Stud Holding Lease; term, 30 y.~rs. Stud

Reid 1 conditions~G.Ol,,) stnd l\L rino ewe.-:. t'l ! be nwintained aud 1,2:JO pu1 :~ :Merino

I Garfield and Hollywood V. G. Harrison, P. \Y. J.

and B. N. Belun, and J. M. Hoblcr

Lake Dunn and Dunn E. Tamblyn JSo. 1

Rosedale A. F. W. Grambauer

' rams to be sold to grazing e:·;;icetnn

I annually. No resun1ption rights through-Sq. mls. uut term.

91 I Pastonl Leases in two lots with Grazing

72

56

Selections 3M•2, 3493, and 3513, Bar-. caldine District ; ttrm of lease, 30 years I in each rasP ; subject VJ nPtting

I conditions.

Pastoral Lease as one lot for u tetnl of 30 ve.~us.

Clare I Preferential Pastoral Leace for a term of

30 yt us. , H. C. S. Griffin . . 104 Pastoral .Lease for a term of 30 ,-. "rs.

----------------·-----------------~-------

YAGRA~TS. GA:NII"'G. AC\D OTHER OFFE:'\CES IHLL.

SECOND RE.\DING.

Th,, HO'\IE SECRETARY (Hon. J. C. Peterson, Xormanby) L2.39j: The object of the Bill i' to extend greater protection to socie:ty. For many ye:; rs the police ha,~e been hampered in the discharge of thmr dutiP:;; bv deficiencie;;; in the la\v; and it i3 -considerCcl that these extra powers are ncces­oary to extend the re[[uisite measure of pro­tection to societY. The need for this measure iws bl)come n1o·;.c u pparent in recent year.::;, and particular!,- since the passage of the Consorting Act by the Parliament of :::\ew South \Vales. EYcrvone admits that New South Wales h>ts a" perfect right to take \vhat steps are nect)ssary to clean up the criminal classc< in that State. Unfor­tunately, in the cleaning up process, the criminals in that State have been hunted oYer the bord<'l's to Victoria and Quecns-1and. So great has the menace become in Victoria that only yesterday the newspapers' cDntainecl thP statement that the Victorian Government have been compelled to give notice of the introduction of a Bill framed on similar lines to the Consorting Act of 'i\;ew South \'i~ ales.

This Bill also is founded mainlY on that Act. As New South Wales has felt it incum­bent to pac'-; a rrw>v .. ure of that kind, and, ns Victoria has been compelled to take "imilar steps. if this Parliament refuses to adopt similar leg-islation, it simply means that Queensland will be the dumping ground for most of the South01·n criminaL. I\1y DWn opinion is that drastic rcmPdies' are ,,,, "ntial J,o dc1l "·ith drastic situations. It is no plea;;;nrP for a Government or a l\1lnister :o introcluce a n1easure containing principle~ Y:hich take .avvay ally liberty o£ the suhjr. t. \Yhen we discuss the term "'liberty," \VO rnust take into c:ons'ideration thg rreatest go0d for the gre-atest number; end in those cases .,-here libertv becomes "!iccn~c, it is ncces,·ary, in the i1ltercsts of society, to protect society fron1 encroach~ rnenh. Tho duty of the Legislature is not to harass the police. I am not sa:ving for -one moment that Parliament has harassed the policE' of Qu 'ensland; but I do say that Parliament, through its inability or 'SOme other cause previou,:-ly to pass' rncasurcs ·to g-i-Ye certain necessary IJOYvers for \Vhich the police authorities have asked, has un·

knowingl} actually .:tssistcd the crin1inal clabq of this State. The iuaclivitv of past Go­vernments right back to 1908 has simply rneant thP- gutnting of greater liccn:~e to criJn1na 1s congregating in Queensland.

The Lc·adcr of the Opposition '<ill -,gree with nw lb.1t a Bill of this naturt> i, one that should be clf'alt with b, Parlianwnt on non~party li11c3. It is o{ no political signifir~ll1CL~; and all sections of th0 torn~ munib' should be actuated bv a desire to purge. Queensland of those eien1ents which 1~1ake for the creation of a crl1ninal cla s·s. The Bill is purely a Committee one. Some of the clauses may appear to be dra:ltic; but when explained, I feel sure hon. mem­bers will agree that they are only drastic on the snrfac0, and a.re not nearly so drastic as they appear in <old type.

Too Jnuch consideration has be0n given in the past by Parliament to th~ argument that certain legislation has interfered with the liberty of the subject. Certain claus'cs of this Bill give explicit powers to the police to deal with tho" .... e who consort with crimi­nals and prostitutes. ~'- section of the pre:;s and some hon. members argue that the police powers contained in his Bill encroach on the liberty of the subject. Libertv. after all, is a term which can be us'ed on]~ in the right direction. ·where people •s :, whole are gove-rned under circumstances "Which make them do that which is t·ight. the;- have a right to demand that the libertv of that section of the con11nunity '\vhich y}c~s n1atters from a criminal st~ndpoint shall be re­strained. It may be also argued at a later stage that the Bill is of an inquisitorial nature, that it aims at too much, and that, if its' provisions are enforced, it will react against th0 best interests of the people: but I would remind hon. members of our In­come Tax Acts. There is no more inf[uisi­toriai law than that.

I\Ir. \V. FORCAX S}JITH: Your Treasurer made iJ, more inquisitorial, because he took to himself cntain rights.

The HOME SECRETARY: That hears out my argnme"t that that law must neces­sarily be inquisitorial in order to ensure that all taxpayem pay their just due"· to the Government. Extreme povver":,-almost unlimited in certain respects-have been giyen to the Commie,,ioner of Taxes to search books, etc.; and Parliament has had to give those powers in orcler to deal with tax­payers. If it has been necessary to give

Hon. J. C. Peterson.]

1418 Vagrants, Gaming, and [ASSE::\1BLY.] Other Offences Bill.

such powers in order to ensure that people shall play the game so far as the payment of incom'e taxation is concerned, is it not more necessary that greater p:nvers should be given to the police in dealing with criminals, especially so that the women and girls of the State may be protected, and life generally safeguarded?

A somewhat similar Bill to the one now under consideration was introduced in 1909 bv the late Hon. J. G. Appel; but, for some reason, that Bill was not proceeded with. Whatever those reasons may have been, it is dear that there is no reason why this measure should 1nt be proceeded with '!lOW, because the growth of criminality makes it incumbent upon the Government to assist the police to do their duty thoroughly rrnd effectively. ]\,fuch as we ma,· differ as to the component parts of the police system, we hrn·0 to recognise that the police are the bulwnrlc<> of society. The appe-arance of a, policeman patrolling the streets, late at night particularly, engenders a feeling of securitv in the heart of <:'verv ritizcn. To the m'otorist the tra.ffic policeman· at the street corner is the embodiment of author­ity; and at all timee Pa~liament has recog­nised the.t the police are the guardians of the co,nnnmity and that they should have reasonable powers whereby they can preserve the rights of the people against persons of criminal instincts.

Although the Bill which was introduced in 1909 was not proceeded with, we have to-day a different Fet of circumstances operating. In the other States there is legislation of a similar nature to that now being considered. In this Bill we are not only protecting the people of Queensland, but we a re assisting the police force in the discharge of their general duties, The 1909 Bill >Yas subsequently submitted to the police magistrates of the daY for their considera­tion. These gentlemen cordially :recom­mended the Bill, and in 1911 another com­prehensive Bill was submitted t<:> the Legis­lative Council. 'I'hat, however, was dropped; and the result has been that from year to year we have been going along with our present inadequate powers, crime has been on the increase, and in 1nany cases crim­inals have been able to laugh at the police. To·day we are forced to the position that we mu~t a'oist the police in eYcry possible way to stan1p out the crime which is ram­pant in the State. The police up to the preeent have done their duty faithfully and well so far as the limited powers given to them would permit; but, unless Parliament gives the powers now sought, it will be difficult to stamp out crime. Time and again the police have apprehended criminal'. but have been unable to have them committed under the existing hw, and the persons con­cerned have wandered at random through­out the State. At a later stage I shall give evidence of these things. The police have been considerably handicapped in dealing with the various offences enumerated. and I shall deal with the particular cases later, because this is mainly a Committee Bill.

The chief function of the police force is to ensure rhe prevention and detection of crime. If you 'end a carpenter to do a job, and you hide his tools or you blunt his chisels and saws, he cannot possibly do a good job. So it is with the police force. Unless thev have powers that are sharpened by Parliament. they cannot effectively deal with the criminal

[Hon. J. C. Pete1·son.

c]a,_:, or, at least, not as effectively as they should. Some people say that the powers giYCn in the Bill are inquisitorial. In most Acts of Parliament there are inquisitorial powers; and particularly is that so in the case of the Income Tax Act. I ask anyone who is inclined to criticise the Bill on that ground this question : Are they prepared to allow bludgers, prostitutes, and thieves to be subject only to the limited control of the present law? Are they prepared to allow present conditions to continue-it may be for years? If Parliament, in its wisdom, does not grant these powers, crime will increase, and the police will have a more difficult taFk than they have had previously.

In coancction with the Bill. there have been sorne ..;nnun0nts b~ correspondent~. in the pr"- 3S about British fair play. People who say that any claucc of the Bill does not conform with tho idea d Briti~h fair play should thorou~hlv arqu.•int themselves. with the preamble "of the Bill, and with each clause; and in every case they will find it is always clearlv dcfinul exartly \\·hpn anything becomes an offence; and, that being the c tse, it is on a ll-Iours with British fair play, \Yhen re, trictive powers are granted, some hardship mu't occur. Every Act of Parlia­ment hurts somebodv. No matter what Act '"e pa··_S, so1ncbody i~ts hurt in the proc~ss 1 and so it is with a wcasl.!re of this descrip­tion. I make no ap,logy for that. under certain circum_,bnccs the police will have to do some very drastic things.

The Bill is drsigned to give the police greater pO>YCr to deal with crimin!lls and faci!it,te their work in the preventiOn and detection of crime. I am prepared to hear argument from hon. 1nernbers oppc:site, and, if thcv can show me whore the BJil can he bettered I shall be prepared to receive and giYe fa~ourable consideration to t'heir sug­gestions.

The present law relating to vagrancy ar:d indecent advertisements is repealed, and, m lieu thereof. the Bill p1·ovides for more effec­ti ,.e proceedings beir:g .taken in r~gard to matters that come wJthm the amb1t of the Bill. The Bill >':ill be read and construed with the amendments and additions to the Criminal Code and the Gaming Act; and it is provided that nothing in this Bill shall limit or prejudice the Criminal Code or Gaming Act. It is divided into five par.ts. Part I. is preliminary. Part II. deals w1th vagrants and disorderly persons; Part III. with gaming; Part IV. with other offences; and Part V. is general.

In the time at mv disposal I shall explain ,Ll far as pn'.oticable the provisions contained in the Bill. The interpretation clause con­tains many definitions, tbe principal dealing with " Indec, nt advertisements or picture Ol'

printed or written matter " ; "Instrument of eanling "; "l.Tnlaw£ul game"; "Obsce~e publication"; "Ovn1er ''; and "Public places." ''Indecent advert-if'Bments" ~are one of !he mattt'rs that have been brought under the notice of the Police Department. The police haYe very limited powers in this dire(~ ion.

The interpretation of " Indecent advertise­nlents" is-

" Indecent advertisement or picture or printed or written matter " includes any advertisement or picture or printed or written matter relating, whether directly or indirectly, to pregnancy of women or to

Vagrants, Gaming, and (20 OCTOBER.] Other Offences Bill. 1419

sexual intercourse or sexual abuse or to any complaint or infirmity arising there­from, or to impotency, or to nervous debility or female irregularities, or w,hich may reawnably be construed as relating to any illegal medical treatment or illegal operation."

The pro\-ision in that direction is very adequate, and I am confident that no hon. member would sanction anything that would permit of these indecent advertisements being circulated throughout the State. At present there are advertisements in our newspapers which can be read two ways by those con­cerned, although I do not expect that any immediate censorship will be exercised where the need is not plainly shown.

::VIr. \V. FoRGAN SMITH: The section relat­ing to pr<'gnancy is only applicable in refer­ence to abortion, is it not?

The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. member knows that there are advertisements in the press which evidently refer to abor­tion; but they are so worded that only those who are looking for that sort of thing can understand what they allude to.

Mr. BEDFORD: Would that definition apply to contraception?

The HOME SECRETARY: No, because that is provided for in the Health Act.

The next definition I wish to refer to is that of "Instrument of gaming." The term " Gaming Acts " is defined thus-

"' Gaming Acts '-The term 'Gaming Acts ' s.hall mean the Gaming Acts as defined in 'The Art Union Regulation Act of 1930.' and shall also include ' Tho Art Union -Regulation Act of 1930' and also sections two hundred and thirtv-two to two hundred and thirty-five" and section six hnndred and thirtv-seven of ' The Criminal Code,' and any other section or s"ctions therein dealing with gaming. gaming-houses, betting, and betting·-houses.''

The term " Instrument of g-aming " is thus defined-

" ' Instrument of gaming ' includes li<ts, sheets, books, tickets, cards, coins, kip, dice, dice-boxes, dominoes, croupiers, and all documents and writings used, or apparently used, or capable of being used in carrying on or in connection with rt lottery, betting, or gaming."

Mr. BEDFORD: Does that include dominoes?

The HOME SECRE'l'ARY: Although the hon. member is an authority on dominoes in a legal way, he will fine! that he does not come under the Bill at all. He will be quit~ free. Of courre, if anybody runs a gammg concern with instruments of gaming, they will come within the purview of the Bill. The next definition to which I wish to refer is this-

"' Unlawful game' for the purposes of the Gaming Acts and this Act and without limiting the meaning of the term 'unlawful game '-The games knmYn or called respectively ' fan-tan,' 'fan-tan troy,' 'troy,' 'pak-a-pu,' 'fruit m.achines' of cyery description."

An amendment will be submitted later deal­inc: with the "fruit machines" section. The dc~;nition con6nues-

,, and any mechanical contrivance in the natur<' of or similar to a fruit machine, 'hvo-up,' 'heading them,' 'sin-ki-loo,'

'tray-bit peter,' 'Yankee grab,' and 'hazard ' and all similar games arid machin~s, and the disposal of money or other property by lottery or chance or by mixed chance and skill; and all g-ames with cards, dice, or other instruments wherefrom any person or persons derives or derive a percentage of the amount wagered or bet."

Mr. FoLEY: I hope that, when we are in Committee, you will describe what those games actually are.

The HOME SECRETARY: I must cndoa vour to have a Chinese interpreter here.

Mr. KIRWAN: Can you arrange with the Commissioner of Police to give an accurate demonstration so that we can see whether it is justified or not?

The HO:VlE SH.CRETARY: Those words~" or other instruments 1rhereupon any person or persons derives or derive a perccnbp;o of the amount "at;ered or qet "­govern 1hc whole definition, so that the person who gets a r,crcentage, or who "runs the school " or who " runs a house," is covered.

l\!Ir. DASH : \Vhat a.bout an innocent game ?f r~ridp;e or cuchre for the benefit of public 1nshtntJons?

The HOME SECRETARY: In that ea so the,, get the whole of the profits. They do not come under this at all.

Mr. n,,sn: According to the Bill, they are not legal.

T:,e HOME S 1WRETARY: They are not illegal. The hon_ member asks me \V het her an ir>,nnoc-::: nt gElTIC of bridO'e v;ill be illecrrl. It will noL "

Mr. D1sn: It will Le illegal under the BilL

The HOME SECRETARY: Not so far a'J I C:l.ll ;;;;c,-_'. rrhf'SC TlOIVers are asked for bccaa -\ at present the police cannot enter thee phccs ,,-ithou1 a warrant. We get ln'!ny cornpl~,inh alcout gambling schools from mjnieters of rc>ligion. the pre·.'Js, and othc'rs all oYer Queensland: but these people fail to r<_'ali,c· how difficnlt it is for the police to obLin entc·y under the nrc-ent law. We aJ~e i ntrcdu~iup: a, cL· use to- rnakc it possible for the pohcc- to enter -uch a nlace.

"'" r. STOPFORD : Can they e'uter church grounds where there is a ra.ffie?

The HOME SECRETARY: Since I haYe be-•n in tho chair of the Home Denart­ment the Attorney-General has been in charge of raffiee. If the police have informa­tion that a gaming school is being con­ducted, the:' have fir2t of all to take out il warrant. and t:her can only prosecute by securing inside ovidE:ncc. Hon. members will undereLnd how difficult it is for the police to gr--t such inside evidence. In many cases they h:we to employ agents; but the people who run these school know them at once as str,ngers; consectuently such people are able to play unlawful games and gamble ad hlntum.

~-1r. STOPFORD: Th,, police <"ln come into one's hon10 under this provision.

The HCl'\1E SECRETARY: No. The hon rnemucr knows that the police at pre­-~nt h:we first to get an agent inside.

:\fr. STOPFORD: I know the old law, but tell me how this will protect people who are not gambling.

Hon. J. C. Peterson.]

1420 Vagrants, Gaming, and [ASSE:\IBL Y.] Other Offences Bill.

The HOME SECRETARY: I am 'going to deal with one thing at a time. People say that the Government are allow­ing gambling to go on all over the State; but they fail to recognise the difficulties which the police have to overcome in get­ting eviuence; and that is wh:, we are asking Parliament to give the rolice the neces­san power. At present, when the police get. the necessary inside evidence, they have to get a warrant. \Yhatever hon. members may say, and hmHJver they may endeavour to get away from the main question, we have to remember the important fact that at 11rcsent the police arc hamstrung in deal­ing ,-:ith gambling schools. First thej ha.ve to get a.n agent in, and then thev have to get their warrant, with the result that it is very difficult to launch a prosecution 'lt all.

JV[r. STOPFORD: There is no protection what­ever for the householder. lTnder this Bill the police could even enter the house of the Treasurer.

The HOME SECRETARY: I did expect such a cont•mtion to be raised ; but, if a gambling echool is being conducted in a private house, then it, too, should be subject to the utmost rigour of the law.

Mr. STOPFORD: lTncler this Bill, the police will ha vc power to enter any house on the plea rhat they have a reasonable belief that gambling is being carried on there.

The HOiiiiE SECRETARY: No. Under this Bill, "Obscene publication"­

"include"' any obscene book. paper. ncwopaper, or printed mat1 er of any kind ,,~hatsoeYcr, and any obscene "\vriting, print, picture, photograph. lithograph. dnn\Ting, or representation.''

The Bill also proYidcs that in any prosecu­tion for anv offence under this Part the buruen of pt:oof that a publication is a bona fide medical work or treatise sha 11 lie on the defendant.

Mr. Kmw.u; : Is that not a reversion of a well-known principle of British jurispru­dence?

The HOME SECRETARY: Ko.

Mr. KmwA;,: The Bill provide" that a person shall be considered guilty until he establishes his innocence.

T_hc ~Ol\lE SE9RETARY: An oppor­tumty wtll be provtded to enable the defen­dant to establish his innocence. The defini­tion of " Owner " is-

" Ovvner of rr hou3e. office. roon1, or other plac,J, or of any land of whatever tenure, or builcllng, includes eyer:v per­~on, con1pany, or corporation vvho is, whether at law or in equity-

(a) Entitled to the same for anv estate of freehold in possession," etc. '

The definition of "Public place " readc-" Public place inrludes every road, and

also every place of publi~ resort open to or used bv the public as of right; the term also mcluues-

(a) An:7 wssel, :-ehicle. building, Toom. llcen,.,cd pr0m1ses. field. g-round, park, reserYe, garden, walk, pier, jetty, platform, market. pasoage. or other place for the time being used for a public ~m·pose or open to access by the pubhc by the express or tacit con­Bent· or sufferance of the owner . ... ''

[II 011. J. c. Pffe7'S01!.

Any place declared bJ the Governor in Com:­cil bv Order in Council mav b • a nubhc place' for th,· purposes of this Bill. In the past the police have been hampered by restricted powers of entry. " Public place" is- now defi11cd in such a r1anner as to makE-' the lcg.tl position clear for magistrates and judg('s.

Part II .. which deals with vagrants and dison.lerlv 'persons, contains eight subclauses dealing 'with ordinary offences, and eight dealing vvith " intent to commit an indictable offence." Hon. members will r< disc that a certain type of crirninal frequents raihYay platforms, wharves, and other places where people congn~gatc. Instances occur day a.iter day of loiterers ;·ound wharves am! other places for no good purpose. their idea being to work the confidence trick on the "mug." A l the present time the powers of "the police to deal with these offences are lamentabl.-: restricted. I1•dividuals may be chuged with what is popularlv knovvn as the "confidence trick," and n1a~7 be commjtted for trial. These men, together with others, may hang around the wharvn for no good purpose, and it is ncces,at-y that the police should haw ample 12ower to deal with any situation that rnay anse.

:Mr. IV. FoRGAK S'IIITH: A number of con­fidence mcn must have been employed by your party during the last election.

The HOME SECRETARY: I do not know that, but all pm·tin go round whispering. The pcople alone can judge vvhcther it has been for good or evil.

Take the case of a couple of men fre­quenting the wh,,rves or ,,aih·a:: platforms to work confidence trick,, on travellers. At the present time these confidence tricksters can work thc•ir little trick on the unwary and get c!Pan away simply because thn polic have not the pmvcr to apprehend the;;p men on the snot unless thev arC' caught rf'd­handed. ~Th0 police rnU.~t be givP:n a cer­tain amount of latitude.

l\fr. STOPFORD: ~\ot lic0n~r

The HOME SECRETARY: Wc say that the police shoulu have power to arrest and bring before a magi:~.trate in the u~ual 1nanner any pcr,;;on or person:s' frequenting wharves or railway otation phtforms and .acco~ting tra veller.s in or-der to work a '"·indle on them. Parliament should recog­nise that the police require some additional powers in this direction in -order to prot _et the tranlling public. It may Le said that. if a p 'rson is taken down in this manner, it it'l his Lusint ·3; but we rnust remember that laws arc made to protect the "'-"eak '" well as the pcopl0 m a whole. That being so. no tunbragc can l-1e taken at the g1Ying of this po·wer. Any person con11nitting an offence pro,-idc.l for in this Part i> dccn1Pd to l_"'-~ a Yagr'l,nt, and is liable to a fine of £50 or six rnonlh:-;'' :in1pri~onrnent. Any p0r~on \Yho cmnes within the a1nbit of this Po.rt may be arrested. despite any· thin~; contained in any other Act. ~~o honest man need be ahaid of the provisions of this Bill. Tn face. no hone,;! man need be afraid of the police.

l\'h. STOPFORD: I ''"'" SC'YC'll years in the Home OfEcc•. and I knew of c,HC'S' of honest n1011 bcirg v],;timised by the 11olice. You f'annot :::ay that is not ::-o.

Tho HOl\fE SECRETARY: I woulcl '"k the ex-IImnc Secretary. if th0 police are no';;

Vagrants, Gaming, and [20 OcTOBER.] Other Offences Bi'l. 1421

emj1owered to prole d the people. to who:n can the p(·oplc look fDr protection'?

l\fr. \YELLIXGTO!\ : 90 per cent. arc honest.

The HO;>.IE f'EC'RETARY: Then 10 p•r c:._•nt. arc Ji"·honcst. Doe" the hon. mcn1ber for Charters Towers rdcr to the people?

:\Ir. \\-nu~~orox: I did not say that. You nmlerstand what I mEan.

Th" HOME SEC'RE'L\RY: The hon. member either rdcrs to the police or to the peopk. If he refers' to the veoplc, then the average) is a ycry gDod one; but, if he refers to the police,· then the position is a ,.,,rv grave one. If the hon. member does refer to the flolice. I still say that the other 90 per cent. of the fore<> are entitled to the additional pawNs soug-ht for in this Bill in order to protect the ·peDple.

ThP Bill will not in any way vitiate the present powc r anJ authorit;· to 'proceed agaimt oftenJers by way of complaint and summons under the Justices Act.

Included in the Bill are two clauses known as tho consorting provisions. Thoro has been a lot of talk. and manv articles have appeared in the newspapers. recently, in regard to the Consorting Act of ::\ ew South \Vales, but some people have clouded the issno. Hon. 1nembers' will notice when pdusing the Bill that the clauses relating to consorting are sin1Har to the provisions 111

the :'-Jew South \Vales Act. :Ylr. STOPFORD: They have not cleaned up

crime there.

The HOME SECRE'fARY: Crime may nor have been cleaned up in New South \\Tales by reason of the Consorting Act, and l will not sa v that this Bill will clean up a 11 the crime in Que<>ns'land, because, as hon. members know, even laws of Parlia­ment arc not invulnerable. It has been eaid that a coach and four can be driven through any Act of Parliament. I do not claim for one moment that this measure will drive all the criminals out of the State;

'"'uut I do claim that it will make the work of the police errsier. Those who complain that the police are not doing their job must remember that they have not the nower; but, if given that power. they sho~!ld do t.lw job thoroughly and well. Once the police have the necessary po\ver.s, it 'vill be the dut.T of the Government to ask why the police are not doing their job, if thoro are an::,r con1plarnts en that score.

VVith regard to the question of consorting, clause 4 provides for inclusion in the defini­tion of " V-.- agrants a.ncl Disorderly Persons " any p< rson who--

:' (v.) Habitually consorts with reputed cnminals or knmYn prostitutes or persons who have been convicted of having no visible lawful means of support;

"(vi.) In a house or place frequented by rqmtcd thieves or persons who haYe no visible la'.;ful means of support, is found in company with reputed thim·es or 3uch per,:ons) and does not, on being charged before a ccurt, give to its satis­faction a good account of his la wfnl n1oans of support, and of his being in such house or place on a lawful occa­sion."

If any honest man deliberately goes into those plac(·', he is looking- for trouble. If he is prepared to consort will! criminals and

persons of that kind, why should he not be prepared to put up with the consequences?

The term also includes any person who-" (vii.) Plays or bets at any unlawful

game or pla0 s or bets in any street, road, highway, or other public place at or with any table or instrument of gaming at ·any game or pretended gan1e."

In the past no responsibility was cast upon people who let their properties to persons of the class mentioned in this clause ; but the Bill now provides for the term " V ag­rants and Disorderlv Persons" to include any person who- "

" Is the occupier of a hoLlSe frequented by reputed thieves or persons who have no visible lawful moans of support."

Mr. PoLLOCK: Will a single man living on rations and camping in the Domain be con­sidered as having " lawful visible means of support?"

The HOME SECRETARY: Yes. Mr. PoLLOCK: They may be iawful, but

they are not very visible.

The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. member is quite in order in asking that question, but at the same time he is drawing a very long bow. The police have a, system of telephoning when certain criminals are wanted; and they have every opportunity of knowing whether a man is a criminal or not. I do not think it is fair to suggest !hat the citizen who is unfortuna,te enough to be out of work will come within the pro­visions of this n1easure.

L nder cl a use 19 prm+cion is made ensur­ing protection to wives and husbands of habitual drunkards so far as the property of the drunkard is concerned.

The Bill also provides for the police deal­i•Jg with persons who have Jelcterious drugs l!l their posscR,ion, such drugs being those· mentioned in the Health Act. It is necessary that the Bill should also give the police power to arrest persons having these drugs in their possession.

Mr. STOPFORD: That will be a great thing for the lawyers.

The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. member is trying to show how difficult it will be to administer the Bill when it becomes law; but I would remind him that Parlia­ment has alwavs the power to repeal. Before criticising the drastic provisions of the measure. hon. members should at least giYc it an opportunity for a try-out in the iutcrests of society as a whole.

:!\It. PEASE: You are speaking now as one Home Secretary to another.

The HO:\IE SECRETARY: The hon. me,11ber for Mount JYiorgan has certainly had a Yery long cxoerience in the Home Depart­ment.' :'\'o do~1ht we both wis.h to do thfJ best, but we ha Ye a different method of doing it. The old method has not been successful: consequently \Ve are introducing new methods. and, if the new methods fail, then \YC shall have to try something better.

The next matter the Bill deal3 with is the question of imposition by fraud and mis­representation with a Yiew to obtaining mone~'· The clause is fairlv exten~ive in its pow0r~. Hon. members l;no\v i.hat, just as you find "mugs:' in the city, there are

Hon. J. C. Peterson.]

1422 Vagrcmts, Gaming, and [ASSEMBLY.] Other 0 ffences Bill~

people who come down from the countrv with a few pounds and who get caught by bogus advertisements. A severe penalty is provided in the case of individuals who trv to make a living in this unlawful way.

The Bill also makes provision that, where persons are convicted of a broach of this cl a use, they shall be " deemed to ba vagrants," and shall be liable to a penalt~ of £50 or imprisonment for six months. Before they are " deemed to be vagrants,"' they have to be brought before a magistrate, and the clauses in the Bill amplify the posi­tion as far as " deeming them to be vagrants" is concerned. As I said at the outset, these powers are nece~sary, and will give magis­trate,, and judges an opportunity to do some­thing that will go a long way towards clean­ing up the streets of Brisbane and other cities and towns. The far-reac,hing effects of these provisions are deemed essential owing to the fact that so many southern criminals are here in our midst. When we get into Committee, I hope to submit to hon. members specific cases where such crimi­nals have come into this State, and where they have been able to evade just punish­ment because of the limited powers of the police. At the present time a criminal who may be arrested is let out on bail, and the police can do no more. Subsequently, he may be charged before a jury, and if he be found guilty, he is immediately sen­tenced. But the judge does not know his past record. The police may not be able to get his past record because he may have served sentences under different aliases. Some of the criminals coming from the other States have served dozens of sentences in various gaols of the Commonwealth under different aliases; and it is essential that the police should have power to deal with this class of criminal on the spot, instead of wait­ing until they get into gaol. I hope that the Bill will aesist in driving this class of individual out of Queensland. Speaking at random, I think that at the present time we haYe about 400 prisoners in gaol in Queens­land, and, ta~ing the whole population, it must be admitted that that is not a bad record. \¥hen the consorting provisions come into force, the prisons will be fuller than they are at the present time; but I am hoping that, instead of these people being a charge on this State, they will be afraid of t.he powers conferred under this Bill and will clear out of Queensland, and th~reby save the police the responsibility and dutv of chasing them up and putting them into gaol.

Mr. STOPFORD: They did not clear out of the other States.

The HOME SECRETARY: Yes they did. If the hon. member will peruse yesterday's papers, he will see that General Blaney, the head of the police in Victoria has reported to the Victorian Government that there has been a large influx of criminals from New South Wales; and, as a result, the Chief Secretary has introduced a Bill into the Victorian Assembly similar to this which I am introducing here to-day. The hon. mem­bn says they are not going there. I sa v that is not correct. - •

Mr. BEDFORD :.The New South Wales police aro congratulatmg themselves on the fact that their perverts are going over the border into Victoria.

The HOME SECRETARY: Now we are coming to another matter in connection

[lion. J. C. Peterson.

with perverts; and I tlnnk the hon. member for VYarrego ,,~il: bear rne out in this. I ha vo watched sLmo of the prisoner·. in gaols, and studied them so far as my limited powers would allow me, and I think that a great number of our prisoners get into gaol mainly be' al '" thny are m,·ntally deficient. These porve1 ts, instead of being sent to gaol, should be sent son1e>.vhere "\Vht.rc they can receive neCE"'sary treatment.

Mr. BEDFORD: Such a.s sterilisation.

The HOi'IE SECRETARY: There is a lot in that. I now want to dPal with olause 8, referring to proetitution. The clause rcads-

''(1.) Any person who-(ri) Keeps or manages, or acts or

assists in keeping or managing, any premises for purposes of prostitution;

(b) Being the tenant, lessee, or occupier of any premises, knowingly permits such premis<:c- or any part thereof to be used for purposes of prostitution;

(c) Being the lessor or landlord of any premises, or the agent of such lessor or landlord, lets the same or any part thereof or collects the rent with the knowledge that such premise" or some part therco [ are or is used or to be used for the purposes of prc'>titution, or is knowingly a party to the use of such premises or any part thereof for purposes of prostitu­tion; ''

Last session the hon. member for vVarrego asked mo a question relating to a house of ill-fame in Fortitude Valley, and it was proved conclusively in the answer he got to his question that a Brisbane solicitor owned that property. Under !his Bill. with­out fear or favour, whether the owner of the property be a leading solicitor or any­body else, he will come within the ambit of the Act, and will receive the treatment meted out- by this measure for such an offence.

Mr. DrKLOP: vYhat- about the women who are in charge of places like those I have mentioned in Rockhampton, who are living on the girls and charging them £5 5s. a week? \Yhat are you going to do with them?

The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. member has referred to this matter over and over again. He will find that there is ample and explicit power given to deal with such cases as that.

Mr. DunoP : Will the police take action when the Act is put into operation?,

The HOJIIE SEC'RETARY: The hon. member vvill recognise, as an ox-mayor of Rockhampton, that there is a conflict of opinion as to the power of the council to deal with brothels; and we have, therefore, definitely stated the position in order to clear the ground. It will not devolve upon thrse chal·ged with the responsibility to put the law into operation; and it cannot be laid at the door of the Government that we have failed in the matter.

Mr. POLLOCK: Are you taking the power in this Bill to a.bolish brothels?

The HONIE SECRETARY: I cannot say we are taking it, because I am one of those who believe you can never quite abolish them. The hon. member knows as well as

Vagmnts, Gaming, and [20 OCTOBER.] Other Offences Bill. 1423

I do that many provision' are placed in Acts of Parliament-not necessarily to be used but to ha vr,, them in reserve in case Df r:cceositv. The hon. member suggested that such provision should be in the Crim­inal Code; but we ha Ye to realise facts as they are, and I Jo not see h·?.w it is J2DS·

siblc to widen th2 matter. \"hthout gomg into details, th., hon. member will realise that the powers that are give:~ here are E>.sentinl in case of Uire necce.~ ity.

Ivlr. POLLOCK: I an1 not arguing the case, but I an1 a~king for inforrnation.

The HOME SECRETARY: 'l'he membf r is asking for information. when it is given to hirn, he is never fied.

hon. and,

satis-

Mr. PoLLOCK : I asked you for this informa­tion at the initiatory stage of the B1ll, and vou refused to gi vc it ; you said you wouki giv~ it now.

The HOME SECRETARY: I have not finished with thE' Bill yet. The hon. mem­ber wants me to jump from, bay, clause 1 to clause 20 and then come back again. I am trying to deal with the questi_on on which the hon. member wants enhghten­ment and I am prepared to reply courteously to dny questions put by hon. I_Ilembers whether at this stage or in Committee. I realise that the lion. member has a right to ask the question.

Mr. POLLOCK : I asked you a plain ques­tion on the subject you are now dealing with. I asked you whether you proposed to abolish b.rothels under this Bill?

The HOME SECRETARY: I gave the hon. member my answer, and he knows perfectly well why I gave that answer. <.rho clause continues-

" shall be liable for the first offence. to a penalty of twenty pounds or h lm­J1risonment for three months, and for the second or any subsequent offem;e to a penalty of fifty pounds or. to Imprison­ment for six months, and In case of a third or subsequent conviction may, in. addition to such pnnishment as last afore­£aid, be r _q~ired by tJ-:e court to . enter into rr·cogmzance, With or without sureties, to be of good behaviour for any period not exceeding t>yelve. months, and in default of entBnng mto such recognizam , forthwith, may be ~m­prisoned for any perwd not exceedmg three months unless such recoJl;mzance is sooner entered into in addition to any such term of impri5onment as aforesaid."

Dn the face of that it looks like extinction. hut it is a power _,-hich, I take it, will have to be used with discretion.

Take the case of a brothel in a residential area in Rockhampton, for instance, which ma.y be a sourco of annoyance, with cars going night and day, and even on Sunday. The City Council say they have no powe:·· At present the evidence of somebody Is required to prove the actual act. That evidence cannot be obtained, and the result is that such places continue. Although this dause looks drastic on the surface, hon. members must remember that it must be administered wisely, or it may do serious injury.

Mr. IV. FORGAN SMITH: You mean that you are taking power to regulate these places?

The HOME SECRETARY: To a certain Bxtent. I think the Leader of the Opposition

realises that \YO 1nust have ·:::On1c po\vf'r to de-o_l with a brothel near a school, for instance, \vhich bec01nes a nuisance or a rnenJ,ce.

':.1r. Dc;.<LOP: \Vhy not c.Jmc right out in the or n and be hor::est, and rcgistei· th::rn instead of backing and filling?

The HOME SECRETARY: TherG is no backiP:; and filling·. I cannot dul with regis­tration. That is a matter which has pro­voked eternal discussion in different places in Australia, and it does not come within the ambit of this Bill.

Mr. PoLLOCK: Tell us what the Gon,rn· rnent policy is on the whole rna tter.

The HOME SECRETARY: I have alre-ady explained that the Government's policy is contained in the Bill; and that it is to give the police, the lonl authorities, or those concerned power to carry out the lav.-. Any per,on who keeps premises in the way I h:,ve described is liable for a first offence to a fine of £20 or imprisonment for three months, and for the second or any subsequent offence to a fine of £50 or impri­so:Jmcnt for six months. That is based on the English law, and, if it is good enough for England, it is good enough for us in an enclea vour to reg-ulate the trafiiD or get some sort of control over it. It is not possible to extinguish it, and it is, therefore, necessary that we should have some measure by which we can control it.

·The next prm·ision dealiag with tho sub­ject is to the· effect that the owner of any premises who knowingly allows them or any part of them to be used for purposes of prostitution shall be liable to be prosecutod. and punished as the keeper thereof.

It is also proposed to provide that a brothel shall include a place used or kept for the purpose of prostitution with one or more per­SOils as inmates. At the precent time such a place is deemed to be a brothel only if it has two or more inmate,; so that the Bill provides for an alteration whereby a place used by one prostitllte will be deemed to be a brothel. The existing law is lax in this respect, that one might find a street where half a dozen vro1nen wore occupying houses singly, and were thus contravening the hw indirectly.

The next thing with \Yhich we propose to deal is the use of lodging or boarding houses for purposes of prostitution. It is provided that any boarding or lodging house keeper who knowingly permits his boarding-house or lodging-house to be used for prostitution is liable to be dealt with, and to a fine of £20 and to disqualification for such period as the c011rt may direct "from keeping or having or acting in the cure or management of a lodging-house in any place."

Mr. STOPFORD: The onus of proof is on the accused-not on the police?

The HO::YIE SECRETARY: Yes. It pro­vides that, if any lodging-house keeper " knowing-ly" permits the house to be used for the purpose, the onus is on the person charged. It is very difiicult to get at the root of the matter; but by these provisions we are trying to cope with it, and I hope hon. members will support us.

Clause 10 is an important provision, and rt' ,lly goYerns the remainder "of the Bill on this question. It says-

" On represm;tation made by any two respectable residents that any prem'ses

Hon. J. 0. Peterson.]

142-! Vugrarda, Gaming, and [ASSEMBLY.] Other 0 .ffences Bill.

near to the residences of such persons is a brothel, the Commissioner may cause the occupier or person 111 appa_rent DC~u­patiun of such premises to furn;sh to hnn within twenty-four hours a hst of the narnr~, ages) s~xe~, and occupa~!on~,of all the inmates w1thm such premises.

" AG.;' person . to whom . such notice is ,.iYeE who fa1ls to furmsh such llst witnin the time specified, or who fur­ni~hes a lis't ''"hich in any material par­ticular is fah0, shall hP liable to a penalty of fifty pour;~s or to Impnson­lfient for .::. ·x n1onths.

This d.d1Se has bC"eu designed rnainly to preve:n,r brothels fron1 becorning a nui:Ltnce in tc~~clential areas.

Clause• 11 deals with male person.·. iiYing wholly or in part on prostitution. The clause proYides-

' · Any police magistrate or any t\YO

i u~tict ~. upon information on oath that tlJere is reason to suspect that-

la) Anv house or part of a house IS used bv ·a femalo for purposes of pro~­titutio;;, und that any male person residing in or frequentmg the house' 1s living wholly or in part on t_he earn­ings of the prostitute,. may Issue h1s or their warrant authonsmg any pollce o!f\ccr to enter and search the house at any time and to arrest that male person."

I am sure that eYery hon. member agrees' that this additional power is necessary; and I am 'ure that they all agree that no male person living on the earnings _of prostitution I:'i ,\~orthy of any consideration or respect v;hatcYer.

Mr. W. FoRGAN S~IITH: He is the worst form of parasite.

The HO:NIE SECRETARY: There is' no doubt abom that. It is es••ential that this power be granted so that the police may d·_al "tih this kind of parasite. The claw,e alw prcYidcs that where-

" A 'a grant is harboured or con­cealed in a house, tent, premises, or place kept or purporting to be kept for t~e lodg~ng or ,;ntertainment of travellers or othe1s ...

a wan ._u1t 1nay issue giving the poli-ee po\ver of entry and arrest. Such a person becomes a vagr.mt under the Bill, and is subject to that part of the Act dealing with vag­rants. There has been considerable diffi­cultY in dealing with prostitute' and houses' kept for the purpose of p1;ostitntion. The police have r:ot been armed '.Ith sufficient nower. and the local authoritiPs have con­tended that they ha Ye not sufficient power, to eh .>l with the matter. The Bill will enable loeal authorities to take whatever action is deenwd necessary.

Clnnse 12 contain, drastic penalties fol' the pr·inting and publishing of obs'ccne rnattcr, lJarticularl.v post cards. This pro­vis~oll js nrgcnt ly needed, because the pre­sent ir,w j, deficient and is difficult to operate. The penalti~-s include ~· flne of up to £50 or imrn·isonmcnt. As I stated cmlicr. in any ]H' ~ecution for an offence under tLis ,_art the burd; n of proof that a publica+io.l i., a bona fide modiu1l work or tnatis·c sh,,]] lie on the defendant. I know that some ohjccti'ln will be taken to that pro­visio:o on the ground that medical works arc published in the interests of humanity,

[!Ion. J. C. Pcterson.

and that certain books on s'exual n1atters should be published became they are iu the· intcrcds of c•,·tnin P' ople; but W.· have evide-nce to the effect that obscene publica­tiofls' ha vc been sold under the guise of medic -1 works, and that thee· have had ]JE'rnicions influence on young people. \V0 ~hould c•ndcaYour to keep these things fro1n tl1c voun~r pc:ople as n1uch as possible. Quite a nlimbe~ of pcopL; in the con1111Unity have made qnitr: a gor-d Jiying by tho sale of indc·: nt lJOo;;t cardf and indecent books. It is c'scntial that thii power should bo prm-idecl so that the police may deal with thr matter, It mav be contended that a prm·ision ,,_,hich thro·.rs the onus of proof on the d€'f0ndant i2. draRtic, but I a1n pre­l a red to hear argument on the subject.

Clau•o 19 deals with drunken personc, aud extends protection to wiYes or husband,, a> the case may l.n. I haYc already referred to the matter, and need not enlarge on it again. I am sure that this provision will be wckom8 to those who suffer the mental pain of having a drunken father or hus­band. or a drunken wife or mother, as th<l' case n1ay be.

Clause 20 deals with gaming. At this­stage I may s'av that the gaming prm·isions nnder the Criminal Code arc not idcr­fered with. The Bill extends the scope of those provisions.

A very extensive definition of "unlawful gaming" is provided. One great difficulty of the police at the present time is in obtain­ing f! ccess to gaming sa loons. I 'vant to refer to that matter again, because no doubt there ,,-ill be considerable discussion on that subject. The difficulty of the police at the· present tim' is that frequenters of gaming schools have various means of escape. That is why Ycry clear definitions are given of " own<?r " and " place." In some cases acce3s is obtained to gaming schools through adjacent buildings. and people are unable to get awav from these gaming bchools except by lanes or doorw<tve leading into adjacent properties. This difficulty is provided for by bringing those properties also under the purview of the Act. This clause include& any place used as a means of access or escape.

There is also provision in the Bill for the three-card trickster or " spieler " class who take down "mugs" bv card tricks. This is a class of individuals \\:ho frequent trains and boats.

Clause 23 prescribes the necessary power whereby any police officer, if authorised in \niting by an inspector of police. may. if he suspects that an indictable offence has been or is about to be committed on board any vessel, enbor on such Yessel and arrest any person suspected of being concerned in the offence, and take charge of any property susrected of beir,g stolen.

.c\lr. STOP FORD: Doe3 that cover a strike?

The .HOME SECRETARY: No. Clause 24 reads-

" _\ny police officer of the rank of a 'Cl'ge~nt of police or of hig.her rank may scareh ~·--

\V c are net cmtferring this po-wer on the lcrwer poEcP ranks-

" (a) Anv vessel, boat, or vehicle in ~,,. upon which there is cause to suspect that anything stolen or. unlawfully oLtained or suspected of bemg stolen or ''"lawfully obtained may Le found; and

V ,grants, Gaming, ancl [20 OCTOBER.] Otlwr Offences Bill. 1±25

(b) Any [Jerson who may be reason­ably suspected of having in his posses­sion or conv~ying in any manner any­thing stolen or unlawfuly obtained or suspected of bcmg sto ]en or unlawfully obtainfd, -and may arrest such person."

Any vrson charged under that clause who c<,mcot give a satisfactory explanation of how he came by such thing may be liable to a penalty of £25 or to imprisonment for six montho.

Mr. STOPPORD: That means that a person charged with pilfering has the onus thrmvn upon him of proving that he came by the goods lawfully.

The HOME SECRETARY: Any person found in possession of goods suspected of being stolen must prove that they were acquired legally. Surely it is essential for a person to prove that he came by goods honestly'

Mr. STOPPORD: _That means that one per­son can " frame " another by secreting a watch in his pocket, thus making an innocent man a criminal.

The HOME SECRETARY: I know that there are dangers, but we must legislate to protect the majority of the people. Prob­ably there have been " frame-ups'' in the past.

Mr. STOPFORD: A man can be " framed " under that clause.

Mr. BEDFORD: It is a basic principle of British justice that ten criminals should escape rather than that one innocent man should be convicted.

The HOME SECRETARY: The onus of proof ahould be on the individual found in possession of the goods. The hon. member may b2 able to give us either at this stage or in Committee concrete examples where that has occurred.

~r: STOPFOR_D: ~t is a well-recognised prmc.1ple of British JUStice that a man is not guilty until found guilty before his peers.

The HOME SECRETARY: Anv officer of police who would incriminate a' man as suggested should he cleared out of the ser­vice.. The difficulty is to prove such cases, but 1t has been admitted alreadv that the police are just as honest as any other section of the community.

The police can be depended npon to give a fair deal in this direction. After all. they have nothing to gain by putting imwcent people in gaol. Many reports ha.-c come to han_d of pilferinl; that has taken place in various places, not only on boats, but in shops, etc., and it is essential that son1e action should be taken to put the onus on the person who is suspected of having stolen goods in his possession.

Another provisions is that >vhere a motor car is stolen the offender, on conviction, shall be liable to imprisonm' nt with hard labour for a term of from six to twelve months without the option of a fin:, Further, the offender may be held responsible for any damage ihat has been done. The damage will be assessed by the court, which may order the offender to pay the amount of damage so assessed, or, in default, suffer imprisonment for a further period not exceed­ing six months.

Clause 31 gives power to any police officer to detain any trainer or jockey who may

1931--4 T

reasonably be su::;poct;'d of haying in his possession any galvanic or electric batterv or any narcotic or poisonous drugs. Anv such persm. \Yho is arrested who does not give a, satisfactory account of the posser-sion of these a pplianCC" or drugs shall be liable to a l>enalty of £25 or to imprieonment for six months, At the Committee stage it may be necessary to c:mrlify that portion of the Bill, o,nd at that stage those hon. members who haYc a thorough kno\Yleclge of racing and of rho djfficulties encountered bv O\Yners in deal­ing \Yith dishonest people wiil be able to give the Committee more informat'on than I can.

Mr. POLLOCK: The trouble i' largclv caused by Llishoncst owners. '

. The HOM~ SECRETARY: At any rate, tt 1s ncce;;-_ary to havo po,vcrs to deal with persons who haYe dishonest i:notives in tha.t nc.pect. "' considerable number of cases have been repcrted.

Mr. POLLOCK : Did the Queensland Turf Club ask you to take that power?

The HOME SECRETARY: I could not say that directly.

Clause 32 deals with the prohibition of publication in newspapers of photographs of parties in divorce cases. That is a matter \vhich is open for discussion, Rnd I am pre­pared to he-ar argument upon it.

Clause 33 prohibits the publication of photographs of witnesses or complainants m sexual cases.

Clause 35 deals with disturbers of public mpetings. I am introducing this for the bene­fit of hon. members opposite. (Laughter.)

I understand that the Lang Party are up here, and that they are going to give hon. members opposite fits in the metro­politan area. I have addressed rowdy meet­ings, and have had to stand up to abuse of c YPJ \ cleecriptio,r, and T shall l10 able to stand up to it again. Hon. members will realise that, when a candidate hires a hall, he is entitled to place his views before the p0ople without interruption. That is a fair thing to ask of the corr,munity. Hon. mem­b-:rs opposite :will find that this provision w1ll be a blessrng to them at the next elec­tion when they are on the hustings. If a man pays £2 or £3 for a. hall, he wants an opportunity to place his views before the people, and the people are able to express their disapproval through the ballot box. The clause provides that-

" An5- person who, by noise, obotruc­tion, or other interference wilfully pre­v<;nts the holding of a public meeting, or wrlfully so distnrhs the proceedings at 11 public meeting as to prevent the orderly conduct of such meeting, shall be liahlo to a penalty of £10 or to imprisonnwnt for three months.

".The offender may he arrested by a. pohce officer eit!:tcr at his own disc re. tion or upon th-" oral or wrihcn order of the chuinnan."

Provision is also made to prohihit anv liquor being- brought to an institution. Thi's has reference mainly to Dunwich and other charitable iP~titutions, where we have had a little trouble during the past twelve months

Speaking gc•ner·ally, all prosecutions under, this measure shall be heard or determined by the court in a summary way. Hon.

Hon. J. C. Petason.]

1426 Vagrants, Gaming, wh' [~\SSE:\IBLY.l

n1ernbcrs n:r:..-t no-~ get it into th~-11· hcuch that the police >!re to !Je ihc .inclge· in these

All i'erous arrcst,•d "·ill be dealt \Yitn ~L Ltagi~trato or a judge.

It i J ~ lso ]Jl oyiJed tltat. \Yhere any person is l'CCJuire"-'- to ~<:u---<) hi3 O\Yi~ < r an:· other J1Cl'~mn'::; n.;"nlC' or address or place of resi­dence and ref~1ses to give the infornration, sur h person n1ay he arrested, and, on con­yiction, bv.omes liable to '" penalty of £20. That. deals ·with tho ""agr~tnt provisions. An offender who is belieY<>d to bo abont to abscond rn _ v be arre•·tcd without vva.rra.nt. \Ve haYc in-stance:; \Vhen) a person ·who is expecting arrest a'_ n_y rnoment ah~co!lds. and, although a po1lccrna.n may catch :31ght o£ him, he cannot a1·rc·.3t Sllth pe1~-on under the prese•1t ]:,.\'~' bcc:uL'" he has no w,:,rrant. 'ThiJ rnoYision. give~ hP police power .to arrest hirn, and brinf,' hl1n before a 111<:· grs~

trate. l\Ir. DASH: You say that a person may b,:

fined if he refuse'~ to ciYc his o',\'n nan1e or the name of any other person. He ntay not kno\v~ the other por·Bon)s namf' 1 and cannot give it.

The HO:\TE SECRET.\HY: That P.ro­vision 1vill apply to persons consorting togeihc '', uch a.s prcstitutes, and they ·,,ill kno·w ea\:h other's nan1es.

Thoro are al'3o provi.:::lons in regard to a person co'11mitting an offenc0 acting under the orders or with the sanction of his mast<'r.

If there is evidence of an employee doing an illegal or criminal thing at the instiga· tion of his 1na".ter, vve have inserted a provision whereby the nnster will be liable for the mistake or crime of his employee. When a penalty is imposed upon an offender, unless there is express provision to the contrary, the court may, in its discretion, impo:o a penalty not exceeding the stated amounts.

There is also provision for a moiety of the money collected to go to the Police Reward Fund and a moiety to the consoli­dated rcYenue.

There are also provisions which give cer~ tain directions with regard to the facilitation of proof, more particularly in connection with articlc3 supposed to have been stolen, the age of offenders, proof that a person is carrying on prostitution, or that any house is used for that purpose, and with vagrants having money in their possession. Some people argue that, if you arrest a man and find £5 or £10 on him, he is not a vagrant; bnt the Bill makes provision that, whore it can be ahown that a man is living on prostitution or the proceeds of other illegal occupations as described in the Bill, he is a vagrant; consequently it r,pplies to him in th~t clirection. There are also amendments dealing with limitation of action, with the destruction of seized publications, and so on.

The Bill further provides that there shall be no restriction in regard to the length of barrel of any firearm that may be earned or concealed on the person.

There is no necessity for me to enlarge further on the BilL I have endeavoured tn giYe the House a fairly full explanation, particularly of its most drastic powers, and at the Committee stage I shall be only too willing to meet the wishes of hon. member8 for further information. I have much pleasure in moving-

" That the Bill be now read a second thne."

[Hon. J. C. P.eterson.

}lr. PEASE (Hcrbert) [3.58]: I have li,tcaecl to the informative speech of the }linister on this Bill, which will be welcomed by the people of Queensland., So far as the Op11o;;;ition are concerned, 1ve have no de _,ire to a "ist the criminal class. but wc wi h to protPd th public interests~ in every possible \V ay.

The Dill deals with a number of matters with regud to Yagrants and suspected per­sons. consorting \vith kno\vn criminals, inde­c~_·nt adYorti~.,·r:ucnts, and gaming. VVe certainly have to tl:ank the Minister for dealing with the Bill at this stage in such an cxhaustiyc n-:.anncr, and giving us infor­ll1'ttion nn w·hich 1ve can base our criticism of the BilL

As a member of a lo,al authority, I have had good deal to do with "Chinatown," in Cairns. When we tried to clean up those place··. we found the question of ownership was a gnat ol,stacle. In many cases well, kno\Yn citi70ns owned ihe hou:;.cs; and. when the council tried to do something in the matt r. the v,,,ted interests prevented the council doing so. Every hon. member who has had anything to do with local autho­rities in the North knows how hard it is h do anything to clean up places like China­town. The dangers of Chinatown in the North are much more drastic than the clangers of brothels in the South. If the Minister' c explanation of the Bill regarding the owner,hip of houses of ill fame is going to have the effect he sas o it will, it is going to be one of th2 best things ever done for the young· people of .'\orth Queensland. We know the danget which exists from China­town, in Cairns. The only Chinatown which has really been cleaned up in North Queens~ land by the lo<'·1l authorities was in Flinders lane, Townsville. They cleaned up China· town there by resuming that particular pro­perty for street purposes.

The HOo!E SECRETARY: That is very costly, though.

Mr. PEASE: Still. it had that effect. The Tocvnsville local authority has the credit of being the only local authority in North Qu0cnsland which has successfully dealt with the eYil known as Chinatown. Such places petered ont, and anyone who knows Towns­yilJe knows that, so far as prostitution is concerned, we have no Ghinatown.

The Minister also toid us that the Bill includes a new definition of "public place." That is a good thing, because the existing definition is probably looce, and an extension of the meaning is going· to do a good deal of good.

I recognise that it is necEssar~' to deal with the influx of criminals from the oth')r States; and, in proof of the ::\Iinister's contention to that effe,:t, let me quote from a newspaper extract something that happened in Sydney a few day;, ago. Mr. J'ustico Armstrong, when dealing with a female criminal on 13th October, took the course indicated below-

" Judge Armstrong has lately adopted methods to rid the State of bad charac~ ters who are constantly before tho courts. Describing Gladys Brown as a pest, who must be got rid of, His Honour, at the quarter sessions of the appeals court yesterday, ordered her to leave the State,

" Her appeal against a conviction for consorting failed. She has a lengthy record dating back to 1921, has been convicted 163 times, and has paid over £500 in fines."

Vagrants, Oaming, and [20 OcTOBER.] Other Offenc<s Bill. 1427

He did not her to prison, but .imply ord~·Td h·er avc New South vVales. Perlups we have her hero now; and the inricknt justif:es the Minister in introducing the provision to prc vent tho overflow of criminals from other States to Queensland. Incic~c·r,tally, the ca2 c shows that we should have a uniform Commonwealth law on the matter. \Yhat is the good of State after State pa siLg its criminals on to other States? \V c shall g·et no finality, and, in any event, it is not a proper way to d"al with the ques­tiou. Such matters should be dealt with by Pren1iers' conferences. In any case, vve should sec to it that we are not the dumping ground for criminals from other States; and, when 3 ou sue a judge ordering 11 person to leave another State, it is time to take action.

\Yhilst on this question, I am reminded that tho '·Daily Mail" of 8th October printed this paragraph-

" Within the last eighteen months there has been a noticeable decline in the num­ber of arrests made by the police, culmi­nating in last 'Wednesday's 'unique occasion,' when the chief police magis­tra1 ' (:;fr. H. M. Archdall) commented on the fact that thoro had been no arrests within the preceding twenty-four hours.

" It is all a sir::n of the times, according to police officials, who S;LV that the dearth of spending money among the general public is having the effect of improving the mol"lls and conduct of the com­nlunity."

So that, if the pro,cnt Government have deflated wages, they ha,•e alco restricted the operations of criminals and others, and I give them credit for having brought that about. Thero is no spending power amongst the people, so that one thing to the credit of the deflation policy uf the Government is that it has had a beneficial effect on the moral conduct of tho community.

The Minister p:t ;sed lightly over several matters with which we ar<> concerned. One is the provision in the Bill dealing with obscene publications. An obscene publication is defined as including-

" any obscene book, paper, newspaper, or printed matter of any kind whatso­ever, and any obscene writing, print, picture, photograph, lithograph, drawing, or representation."

I turned up the meaning of " obscene " in the dictionary, because I suppose a court would give the dicticnary meaning to the word. I find that it is defined as-

" Impure in language or action, inde­cent, offensive to chastity and delicacy; inauspicious, ill-omened.''

Thai' covers very wide ground. I am inclined to think that something may be done by an official which may not be alto­gether in the public interests. vVho is to be the judge of what is obscene? One of the greatest Australian artists, Norman Lindsay, wrote a book entitled "Red Heap," which the Commonwealth c0nsor decided was obscene, and refused to allow its admission into the Commonwe,1lth. ·would any sensible man suggest that a person of the intellectual attainment-. of Norman Lindsay would do anything, or would write anything, that would come under the ban on obscenity? I think it is stupid for any censor to suggest

that a genius of the c ~ librc of I'\ onnan Linduy >vonld do anything to tht' detriment of the people as a whole.

The Ho=1IE SEC~:ETARY: \Vould the hon. member argue th<tt a nudo fi, urc painted by Lindc~ay woull bs le··~ ob:<c ·np than .a nude figure pain•d hy an th_r person?

l\-lr. PEASE: To the pure, all thing~ are pure. A ~ udr figure of itself is not obscene. A painting of a nude figure can be one of the greatest pieces of art. It depends entirely l.Jpon the menhl outlook of the P'~r­sou viewing the painting. Ccrt~1in people 1n; y look ,,Lt women and worncn con1plain; but in the case of a proper mental outlook such a cornplaint does not exist. I an1 just afraid that the Bill is going a little too far. I refer e,pecially to thP case of Norman Lindsay, because he is reJarded as a genius by e1 erybocly. Apropos of this subject, the Sydney " Bulietin " s:cys-

" In1:t0"1d of a crude forn1 of prohibi­tion, which is what all Government cen­sorships con1e to eventually, Lindsay argues for cornpron1ise. Australia's writers and arcists should be allowed to make their appc·1l. as th•' masters did, to the whole gamut of human emotions, and the public should bo their judgPs. Shakespeare's sonnets and parts of the Old Testament they rightly insist would have been banned if Enilland had had a censor when they appem·ed. Assume that .. \ustralia decides, incongruously, to put on what the Chartist's daughter in Mere­dith's poem called 'a Sunday fade,' and perpetuate its inquisition of films, book'", and pictures with a view to the discovery of improprieties. It may save the fee]. ings of a few innocents, but it must rob the pe?ple,as a whole of pricelec3 com­pens~t1Qns.

That will probably bEl the effect of the rele­vant portions of this Bill. Already we have a Common" oalth censorship in operdion to deal with books entering the Commonwealth; but I do not think '·' e should have .1n addi­tional cc-1sorship in ~-his St~te. In referring to a sin1ilar mat.,2r, the "Courier" pojnted out that the danger did not lie in the truth, but mo•tly had its roots in ignorance. I do not believe that any person would buy a book, a picture, or anything else unless it appealed to him, Wlut might be regarded, b.u son1e people as impure woul·d be regarded b3· others as the product of a genius. I think it would be better to allow the people to be the judges. No person is compelled to buy an obscene book or an obscene picture; he purchases it because he desires it. These articles are certainly not purchased by poor people, because they are not in a position to make such purchases, They are purchafccl by people who have certain ideals dthough their ide.als may not appeal t~ everybody, I do not think that certain officials should be armed with the power to say whether certain books or pictuns and such like shall be banned. There are books in our librarv which hon. members read with very much interest, but which accord­ing to this Bill, would be regarded a~ coming under the ban, Such books as "Jew Suss" and others might be described as obscene.

The HOciiE SECRETARY: How would you deal wi h individuals who sell indecent post-cards?

l\'Ir, PEASE : Who buys them?

The HmiE SECRETARY: Young people.

Mr. Pease-1

1428 Vagrants, Gaming, arul [ASSEMBLY.] Other 0 ffence& Bill.

Mr. PEASE: Young people do not buy them. In my opinion, thE'•o things are pur­chased by elderly people. There is no market for impure books or post-cards in Queenslrcnd. The people do not want these things. The people of Queensland, as a \Yhole, arc as clean IiYing ·and as pure minded as any people. I do not think that our people should bo subject to the censor­ship th•tt i~ here proposed. The censorship provided in this Bill is not necessary and the Minister would be well advised to or;1it it.

Provision is nutclc dealing wlth books on sexual n1utterR. does· the }iinist;r iu-cludc under headiLg of " s,:xual

rs "? I that th .-';Sunday l\iail" not accept a lvertis~n1~ntB opposed

tc the morals of young people. Yet I rc.·d in last Sund·1 v's ]-;sue an atlverti~en1ent by Victor Wawn offering a book on birth control. rrhat would conle under this ban. Again. in the s'a! 1e issue of the " Daih JI.Iail" is aa advertis"ment by Mr. and Jlfrs. L. Gordon offering a bo~k on " Birth Control and Hygienic Counsel," v.hich the,~ eay 11 of extr _me value to people who are Inarried or about to rnarrv. This j, not a medical book, and would,· therefore .come under this ban. '

The H01lE SECRETARY: So it should.

Mr. PEASE: ;\o one compels people to buy thc"·'e books; people only bn!' them be­cause they haYe a reason for doing so. That cens·orship should not apply to books of that sort. The Commonwealth has a censorship law in regard to books imported from oYeneas, and that should be sufficie!Jt.

The Bill defines "unlawful gaming." "What we want to know is how that clause will affect euchre parties and dances? Many of our Austrahan J;.abour Party branches organise euchre partres and dances to raise funds n1orc e"pecially f'ince the present G overnn1eHf deprived our or;;anisations of the right to hold art unions. Cnder the Bill the Minister can say that our organi>::,~tions shall not carry on these entertainrneLt;:;. \Vc must then apply to the AttorrH'y-General for a permit for ''· cuchre party and dance ; but the h~n. gentleman will not grant any such per­mit to. us because he IYill not "anction any·· thing that will bend1t our political funds.

The I-Io:.m SECRETARY: That is nonsens·e.

Mr. PEASE: Here is what the hon. gcntlel11an's clause 2ays-

" The t~rm shall not include anv game of ch,n1co or game of mixed charlce and skill in respect of which a permit has been issued bv the Attorney-General or other i\finistp-r of the Crown for the time being charged with tho adminis­tration of 'The Art Union Regulatioa Ad of 1930' and nndor and subject to 1 he prDvis'ions of ' The Art tJ nion R~~n-u~ la! ion Act of 19ZO.' " '

The Minister will not issue a permit for that class of entertainment because lvc has decided thct he will not ies~e Dormtts for entertainments to raise political funds for Labour. In Rddition to preventing our or?f1'1Is.utions from holding art unions, by thts' Ildl the GoYcrnment will take aw&y from the Australian Labour Party the righ"t to hoJd Puchre parties and dances.

The HOME SECRETARY: Show mo whore !he clause say~ so.

Mr. PEASE: This Ilill provides tlwt anv game is ill~gal from which any person o"r per>ons cknvo a pcrc<>nhge of the profits.

[Mr. Pease.

The Hmm SECHET.\TIY : This Bill rloes not prohibit you fron1 holdinv ~uchre parties and dances.

~\Ir. PEASE: Lately our organisations ha-.;,-e been raising a fair an1onnt o£ funds b~.7 euchre parties and d tnccs. \Ve have no Lig squatting iEtcrests, nor ran 1,1'C grant .anv extensions of lea~es' or giYc anJ- big conR ces'sions anybod~'· "\Ye nn1st raise our funds tho wa:>' we can. I am quite pre-pared to ac"cpt the statement of the Home Secretary, because it means a big thing to us. \Ye shall win next election. no matter what obstades arr put in our IYay, but we must have a little monev to offset the thousands which the pastoralists give to the Government.

l'v1r. BR.\XD: You get more money than we do for election purpose'~.

~,lr. PE_._<-\ SE: I shall be sari~fied so long as we r 111 continue t,) hold our PLh.-h::·c parties 1-nd dances.

The Home Secretary has made matters much clearer regarding the definition of " V a grant and Disorderly Persons " under clause 4 (iv.) (bj. \Ye haYe no desire to returr.t to the clan when the curfew bell was tolled; nor do we want to see persons arrested merely bcca.nse their faces are blackened or masked. After all, quite a number of people disguise their faces although they haYe no criminal intent. However, the ·explanation given by the Home Secretary is satisfactory.

Vve are more especially concerned with the unemployed, of whom there is a tre­mendous number in Queensla.nd because the Government have failed to redeem their promises. The GoYcrnment have created thousands of what are known as '' bagmen," and we are concerned to see that the police do not put these people into gaol. I desire to read for the benefit of the House a very human letter which was written by one of th;,t dass. The writer, who is a. returned soldier at present camped at Babinda. has tm;·elled the Siuto in a fruitless search for work. He is a man who served his country -the type of man who was told by the patriots who sta:·ed at home tha.t nothing would be too good for him on his return, He certainly got nothing.

JVIr. BuAND: You were in power when he came back.

Mr. PEASE: This unemployed soldier who fought for the great patriots who pro­mised him so many things cannot even get a jol]. My object in reading the letter is to show hon. members the class of person we want to protect under this measure. This is \Vhat this returned soldier writes-

" I tra vellnd 21 miles yesterday, to be here to draw my weekly sustena.noe (5s.) to-day (Tuesday). Part of the way I got a car ride; !he rest motor-truck and foot. Getting about on the track reminds one of the old lorry-jumping days in France. Only now 1ve are not quite so well found."

He has to tramp t!10 country looking for rations. He cannot get work because the­people who promised him work on his return from the war would not give him work.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order ! I would sug-gest that the hon. member connect his remarks with tho Bill.

Vagrants, Gaming, and [20 OcToBER.] Other Offences Bill. 1±29

J\;h. PEASE: I am cioing so, :Mr. Speaker, beeause this type of man will be classed as a vagrant under thi; Bill.

The H Q:llE SECRr:T \RY : He will not.

Mr. PEASE : The letter continues-" Coming i:1to the tov>:n I s~nv the

main bagmen's camp. It is a disused brothel. There were four or five fellows there. One other was out at the back. doing something to a fire and talking to one of the women from the place 1wxt door. !The place next door is the new brothel.) 'Don't camp in the old 'un,' so1neone \VP ... rned me up at M.oss~ man: ';-ou'll get all lousy there.' So I and my ma~ 1 pitched ou1· bit of a fly further on-on the bank of the river, where there is clean fresh water and a 1'rofusion o£ tropical foliage.

" In the eYcning <Ye walked up town. Outside the picture-show there were a half-dwcn other bagmen. \Ve all stood there wab"hing a few prosperous folk paying 2s. 5J. each to get in. At eight o'clock oue of us pnt the acid on the girl in the b0x. She said, 'Yes, you can fill np the empty seats.' The prin­cipal film was about the French Revolu­tion. The moh clamouring for bread at the gates of the 'l' 11ileries somehow made one feel wondrous kind-towards the revolutionaries.'

'l'he ATTORNEY-Gn:ETIAL: What has this to do '.l'ith the Bill?

Mr. PEASE: This is the class of person who will be classed as a vagrant.

The Ho;uE S• :nETARY: No. l\1r. PEASE: '\Vhcl'e arc that man's law­

ful visible mean,, of support? The letter .continuf~s-

" Next day w,_ gave in our cards. At most stations vou have a chance of getting your rat.ions before midday. But here you leave your card in the morn­ing and cow<e back in the afternoon for the tickets. It was 3 o'clock before we were clear and 5 o'clock before we had drawn our !'ations. :Most of the mob had nothing to eat until the evening that day.

"On ration day, in a police station, one has a fair insight into humanity. 'l'here's very little bounce about the mob here. Those very fellows who, when far from the statio!l, arc heroes of their own encounters with the 'J ohns' are abjectly servile in the actual presence of the uni­form. While we were at the station 1he sergealit turned on a few of them. 'You're becoming ~~ residents round here,' he barked. ' Yon better take a walk, some of you. I won't give any of you rations Lero a.;;ain until the end c,f this nwnth.' ~'

Mr. K;::-;:-;y: \Vill yoa lay that letter on the tllble:

:dr. PEASE: I will give it to the hon. member. All we have to do is to tell the truth about the pariy opposite. This is the way a m<tn is treated who has no lawful visible means of snpport. If the Home Sec­reta.ry says he will protect him, then I shall be 'atisficd. Surelv a man who has fottgLt for his co;1utr.~ (, g'ood enough to have his C[,'Se placed before Parliament l

The ATTORXEY-GEXER_\L: \Vhat has that to <:lo with the :Dill?

:'vir. PE"\SE: The Bill deals with men in his posjtion. The letter continues-

•· ... \Vhtt some of them said in reply to him was not heard until we were ,-ery far away. Such is the wisdom of the mob.

" \Ye filled the store. Some of them beguiled the time by transferring tins of jam, etc., to their nosebags. Cer­tainly the tins were temptingly laid out on shelves-and the mob were hungry, Their last five bobs' worth had prob­ably been cut out a day ago. Besides, this storekeeper would not allow them to draw any tobacco.

" This is a g·ood-looking town. But it is not a good pla-e,c for bagmen. 'l'he sergeant does not like them. And I don't know whether he's right or wrong.''

This returned soldier goes on his way with 53. worth of rations in his l)ag.

The HOli!E SECRF.T.\RY: This is not a Re­turned Soldiers Bill.

Mr. PEASE: It is a Bill dealing with vagrants, and this man had no money. All he had in his bag when he left Babinda was 5s. worth of rations, and he had to travel 21 miles the previous day to get that. He has no money, and he can get no more ration; for a week. \Vhat is his position?

Mr. PoLLOCK: He will have to explain to the court.

The Ho~IE SECRETARY: I\o, he will not. If he is found consorting v.-ith criminals, then he has to explain to the court.

Mr. PEASE: 'rhe only person who was charitable enongh to do anything for this man was a poor unfortunate prostitute who lived next door.

The ATTORNEY-GnmRAL: Do you say he dept in a brothel ?

Mr. PEASE: \Vhere else could he sleep? 1 want the Home Secretary to tell me that that man is not going to be classed as a vag­rant. 'The Bill says that, if a man has no visible means of support, he is a vagrant.

A GOVERNMENT MEMBER: You are drawing a very long bow.

Mr. PEASE : A vagrant is described as­" Any person who-

(i.) Having no visible lawful means of support or insufficient lawful means, does not, on being charged before a court, give to its satisfaction a good account of his means of sup­port.''

All his means of support are the 5s. worth of rations, which has to last him a week.

ThB ATTC Rl-:EY-GENERAL: You say he slept in a brothel.

Mr. PEc\.SE: The Attornev-General knows that you get the best charity from the poor people. A poor unfortunate prostitute was the only pers'on to speak to that individuaL

The ATTORXEY-GE:-:ER.\L: Do vou sav he had nowhere cbc to sleev ·~ ~ ~

Mr. P},;ASE : \Yllcre could he sleep? He could camp on the bank of the river. Those rations haYe to L :-:-t a week. 1Jncler thi-; Bi.;l that nutn could be arrested s d.

vagrant. 'fhat is the l)Oint we want to make. \V e think the 1\iinister will be \\-ell advised to have that clause redrafted. \Ye

Mr. Pease.]

1430 Vagmnts, Garning, and [ASSE?.IBLY.] Other Offences Bill,

'"ant to see that cla3.'~· of pr~rson protected; there re no·: only one or tn·o, but hundreds of them. When ·r was up North recently I met about hvcnty rnen who, going over the range frorn Cairns to Ynngaburra: can"lpe.d at the foot of the range, washmg their clothL.. Those men had no visible mean., of support. Thev had w.dked from Atherton to Gordonvale ·to get their next week'·· ratiom, and all they had to do was to go to the show grounds; and that was where they were makiug for with a lou+ o£ bread and a tin of jam in their hands'. They wm·e all decent men. l asked them where they can1e frorn. I\I ost of tlien1 ''ere farmers' emplovees and farmer} sons who came from the D·O\,·ns. there being no work for them there, owing to the cancellation of the rural workers' award. They had trekked to ""orth Queensland se0king work in the Bugar di~tricts. but had been unable to obtain any. Thev had then vone to Atherton to try to get work at maize-pnlling; but the Hindoos Fere doing all the work needed in that re~pect. Then they had to come dO\\Tt OYCY the range again to g-ot more ration '. Vi/ill those men be treated as V\ag­rants unclC'r this Bill?

ThC' HOME SECRETARY: I will stake my reputation that reputable young men who arc travelling about the State will not he arre!'tcd as vagrant ..

Mr. PEASE : I want to pin the Minister down, because this is a matter I am very much concerned about.

The HmrE SECRETARY: If the)· go around cadging and becorning a n1enace to the com­munity ·by mixing with thieves, or perhaps acting :1s bluclgers, that will be different.

Mr. PEASE: I have said all I " mt to say in regard to that matt<'!'. I am quite s'atisfi<·cl to haYc the Minister's ~tsiluranco that he is not going to penalise those men.

At 4.27 p.m.,

The CHAIR:lJ\X OF COMMITTEES (Mr. Roberts, East 1'oo1;·oomba) relieved Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Mr. PEASE: '!'here is another matter I want to deal with. Paragraph (xvi.) of clause 4 reads- -

" Pretends or profeeses to tell fortunes for gain or payment of any kind."

That is done in certain cafes', where they charge a certain amount over and above the price of' the tn and give a teacup read­ing. They include it in the price; and, instead of Is. for a cup of tea and cake. they charge Is. 6d. or 2s. 6cl. Tho penalty is £50 or six rnonths' irnprisonment.

There is .another matter regarding prostitu. tion that I want to know a little about. We are afraid that the r:ction to be taken linder this Bill, if properlv carried out will drive prostitution into h;les· and cor~ers. whicl1 is a very bad thing. I agree with the Minis'tcr that it is absolutely impossible to stamp out prostitution altogether, which was in the world long before us or anv of our forefathe_rs .. Th9 present policy in regard t<J prosht,ut10n m nearly all Governments Is what IS known as '· tolerated houses." It .is illegal, bnt it is tolerated. The ex­ammation bv the authorities is, I think, very es'senhal. The Government Medical Officers in C':1 irns, Innisfa il, and places like those, see to it that t~ese wo:nen. come up for ;a \Veekly lllSIJCCtiOn, \.Vhich 1S Yery 11€C€Sw

[M1·. Pease.

••arv. I hone Minister in vintroduCing \viH 11ot do . WJ.v ·c·ith J·hQt There is no doubt that onn of proYisions' in regard to prostitution is the examination of these poor unfortunates. It is a very good thing, and I understand the records show that Queensland is very free, indeed, from venereal diseases caused by prostitution. When I was on the council in CairnF, I know that e\'ery week the Government officer yarded up these girls, who had to go through a medical examination.

Prostitution is an evil which will not be put down, and I believe that the provision of toleratfd houses is the best means of dealing with the matter. In any case, we hope that the effect of this Bill will not be to drive the evil into holes and corners. I hope also that the present depression in Queensland is not going to aggravate prosti­tution. Hundreds of girls who are unable to get jobs may be driven to prostitution. We have thousands of them in Queensland. Go to Cairns. The hon. member for Cairns will tell you that you can drive through Chinatown and see them there-young girls more particularly.

Mr. KENNY: Cairns is no worse than any other city in Queensland.

Mr. PEASE : Cairns is. because this is right in the heart of the city, and it can be seen. There is only one thing that will have the effect of curbing it at present, and that is that there is not enough money in circula­tion to give them the inducement tpey have had in the past. I hope there Will be no aggravation of the evil.

I quite agree with the clause regarding keepers of houses for the purposes of prosti­tution. I know that in Cairns well-known people owned such houses and charged £2 and £2 10s. a week rent. The council there tried to proceed against these people, and took counsel's opinion on the matter. I think we paid £100 to Mr. Feez, and we found that we could do nothing. The first part of his opinion told us to go ahead, but the second part-the part for which we paid the money-told us that we were up against vested interests. We could not do anything. We started off by trying to make it public. Some of the owners had sons and daughters, and we tried to shame them into doing something, but they got China:nen to dummy as the owners of the premises. To-dav in Innisfail conditions are similar. In Chinatown t.he bulk of the premises are owned by people who do not appear, whilst dummies are registered. If the Minister can counteract that evil, it will be a good thing. Only to-clay I received a letter from Innis­fail asking me to support any portion of the Bill which would have the effect of doing away with the Chinatown evil, and I intend to do so.

I agree that the people w.ho wilfully exploit prostitution should be punished. Amongst other things, clause IO provides-

" Upon representation made by any two respectable re iclents that any pre­mises near to the residences of such persons is a brothel, the Commissioner may cause the occupier or person in apparent occupation of such premises to furnish to him within twenty-four hours a list of the names. ages, sexes, and occupations of all the inmates within such pre1nises."

Vagrants, Gaming, and [:.:0 OCTOBER.] Other 0 .ffences B ;u. 1431

So that people \Yho have occasion to believe that iheir n<oighbours are not as good as they ought to be are enabled to m:~ke representa­tions to the police. Possibly we may be able to deal with that more effectiYely in Committee.

Reverting to the question of indecent publi­cations, I notice that in any prosecution for an offence the burden of proof that a publi­cation is a bona fide medical work or treatise shall lie on the defendant. We really object to that. We think that the clau•e is a little too drastic, and that the proof that a medic.tl work or treatise is valuable and neccseary should not lie on the people < harged. One can go into our own library and find 100 books which would come within the definition of this Bill. I do not believe in this ·.ort of thing, and I think it is going a little too far. The censorship clause is too drastic.

Chnse 32 deals with the prohibition of publication in ncw.;papers of the photo­graphs of parties in divorce case'. The :i'lhtrimonittl Causes Act gives judges discre­tionary power jn t.his n1atter at th(;" present time, and we consider that power sufficient. The Bill will practically have the cftcct of depriving judges of the Supreme Court of this discretionary power. There is no objec· tion to clause 33, which deals with the prohi­bition of the publication of the photog·r<cphs o£ complainants or witnesses in sexual et '"it-·'!.

Clause 34 deals with persons practising fl'auds on the Com1nio:'3ioner for Railways, which. in dJ'ect, mcans that it deals with pe ·sons .,, ho "jump the rattler." The people of Qnccnsland have become w unfor· tunatelv oircnmstanccd as the result of bad goYerninent that hundreds of persons are now f'On1pelled to ju111p tr.dns. '.1·he:..eas in the past these instancb occurred very rarely. The penalty is a yery ~",_\vere one, proYiding, a3 it does, for a fine not exceeding £20 or six months' irnprison1nent in addition to pay­ment of the proper railway fare. \Ye con­tend that the Government should issue free railway pas.es to people in search of emplov­meni. '!'here are hundreds of people traye]­ling the State through no fault of their own in S•?arch of cmployme•Jt; and it ,you! cl be preferable to is~ue frf'e raihvay passes rather than tighten up the law as it is proposed to do. The 1·ailvmy passes co,t nothing; goods trains arc traversing the State day and night, and it would be a simple matter for cc station-master or a police officer to i>sue a railway ticket to the people concerned. Recently I had a lett0r from Innisfail point­ing out that a man and wife had become stranded in that tmYn and were compelled to jump the train so as to return to friends who might prm·ide for them. If these indi­Yiduals al'f' discovered in the act, tlwn the·.· are to b'' cubject to a fine not excecdin~­£20 or six months' imprisonment. The ~finister would be well advised to withdraw the clause from the Bill. Onh- last year a returned wlclicr jumped from a train at Tully and was killed. However, it does not real!} matter •hat the Bill contains, becausr,• clause 53 giYes the Government pmYcr to isr,ue H :~ulations enr; 11ling them to do an \7

*

thing they like. We aro asked to discuss Bills in Parliament; but, when we come to the end of Bills. we find a clause to the dfert that. it doc•s net matte1· what is in the Bill the Goyernment are going to do Di' the;\* like'. If there is any Bill in which such a clause should not appear. it is certainly this Bill. It contains very drastic power~~ but clause

53 prm·ide>. in effect, that, whether Par!ia­lnc;nt is sitting or not, the Go..-ernn1ent n1ay do anything they like. So, yvhat is the use of debating the Bill? The I>linister has told us that the Bill is e. Committee Bill, and that he is prepared to accept reasonable amcnrlmcnts. The Opposition will endeavour to assist him by moYing amendments calcu­lated to be in the public interests.

\Ye certainly are not going to stand up for \he criminal class. \Y c do not stand for them at all. Anything that will tend to tighten np the la·,;s to combat the real criminal class will have our support; but we arc out to protect the public interests, a.nd in Committee we v:ill endeavour to make ugq·2.tions which will improYe the Bill in

the intcreeits of those for whom \Ye stand.

Mr. BEDFORD (1Varreqo) [4.40]: Almost everybody welcomes any extension of the law which is likely to prove to the criminals that crime does not pay; but with that also goes the necessity of believing, and forcing action horrr that belief, that it is better that five criminals should esc1pe than one innocent man should be convicted. There is in this Bill quite too much power taken b- Dogberrics <nd quite too much onus put on tlH; person charged of proving that he is innocent. All social legislation has a danger, as all legislation has, of making too much a machine of itself without con­sideration of the differences in the human cqu •lion. The more tha-t laws have of that Jl• ;uliarity the more they are bad laws, and tend to get themselves repealed by getting thomseh-cs broken. Quite a number of ferocious penalties in this Bill are already part of the la.w.

The Hm!E SF.CRETARY: That is so.

:\h. BEDFORD: Under this Bill a prosti­tute can bn 11ned up to £50 or giYen a long term of imprisonment for soliciting; but the b<td part of this Bill is that half the fines in o rtain nses are to be given to the police reward fund. That has always been part of the la.w; but it is none the less objectionable because it has dropped into dPsuctude, The danger of th( bad parts of the law~which have been rctued by time but are being re-enacted--is that bY re~enact­ment they get another lnse of !if~. Certain card games and dice are illeg-al. It would· be far more honest if the Government were to recognise that Australians arc for the­most part inherently gamblers. For instance, m·cr. person who goes to bed at night quite 6atisfiul that he m she will wake up in the morning is taking one of the most doubtful risks ever known; but it is a risk which seems nothing bP eau,_, it is done 365 times in the year. _An insueanr:o policy is a gamble, because the insurance company bets the policy-holde,· that he will live, while th€' poiicv-holder bets that he will die. A man who takes out a iiro insuram··" policy is a gambler, 'boca nse he bets the insurance compan;.- that his house will be l:mrnt down, and the insurance company bets him that it ·:ill not. It would be im:mea6urably better if the Government would admit that gambling was inherent in human nature, dnd doci de cl that the best thing was to respectabiliso and commercialise it by ma.king it a Government monopoly. Before the Trea­surer won to the Treasury benches, he and (1uite a number of other people were satis­fied that the " Golden Casket" was an in­wntion of the devil. To-day the necessity

M1·. Bedford.]

1432 Vag1·ants, Gaming, and [ASSEl\IBLY.J Ot:1er U Jfences Bill.

for that uonev for our charii•ble institu­tionR <'(;mpcls ·~ hirn to recogni~c that rhc pro.iit, aftet· a11, do-:s a'\v<ly 11virh a great deal of its depra,·it.v. During the pa't few da~·" a Yi~itiug philrrnthropist frorn Sydney lLcve offered the GDYornincnt to take c·hargc 6f the financing of tlw hospitals. It is shted that Jmrt of thio gentleman's fun<'­tiom was to run art unions for hospitals i;1 New South Wales, but it is alleged that they returned only 7s. or Ss. in the £1 to the hospitals, the admitted :' ctual cost of administration of the lotteries being 34 per <eent.

'l'ho fuct that Goyernmcnt control of garnbling can bo a dec~nt, wise, and prudent thing is proved by the fact that the Gm·crn­ment' control of the "Golden Casket" onlv costs 7 ~ per cent. for administration, and a't <me time it cost but 5k per cent. So also with the totalisator. If the Government were serious in taking all ways t'o abolish gambling, they should make the totalisator the only medium of betting on the race­course. I thoroughly believe that shop bet­ting is bad, bqt that would be met' by having a totalisator in the city for the people who do not want to go to the races.

The definition of " vagrant " as being a person having insufficient· means should in­-dude certain insurance companies, including that thing calling itself the "Equitable"; but it is borne in on us that the desire to abolish the vagrant in this way has distinct reference to unemployed or to men who are out of work in the back country areas, as happened in 1891.

There is a comic opeea clause which refers to being " found by night having the face blackened or masked, or wearing felt or

-other slippers, or being dressed in disguioe.'' I remember once seeing a cm·ate going to a fancy dress ball as "Othello." (Laughter.)

The HOMll SECRETARY : Did he go there to commit an indictable offence?

M1:- BEDFORD: I do not kno\>', not being a mmd reader, as the hon. member is ! It might have been an indictable offence so far as wowsers were concerned, because he was going there to enjoy himself. {Laughter.) Who has to prove his intention? Is he to dis­prove his intention himself, or is the arresting policeman to prove that he has an intention? If so, why do you expect the policeman to do fortune-tolling in one clause of the Bill when you 1nake it a criminal offence in another clause? Supposing, for instance, the Treasurer were disguised as a Christian. would he be subject to arrest? (Laughter.) In the case of the Secretary for Labour and Industry being dis:r,uised aF an Australian--

The THE.\SURER: I don't' know what would bappen to you if you were disguised. (Laughter.)

Mr. BEDFORD: If the hon. gentleman means my being disguised as a Christian, I would have to have a hypocritical smile very reminiscent of the grin of a trapped fox.

\Vith regard to the definition-" Being a suspectPd person or known or reputed thief or cheat. is found in or ou any river or stream." it\ it suggested that the 1nan i.~ capable of stealing the ri\ er or en1b~·z:.diru~· the tide? (Laughter.) ·-

The H01!E SECHETARY: That is already in the Vagrant Acts.

Pfr. Bedford.

Mr. BEDFORD: R ally ! The reguhtions against the use o£ firearrns

and the CJllficlence trick are good; but, when you include also an indi \·idual who " solicits. gather~, or collect alms, subscriptions! or con­tributior:s undr:· any false pretence," you are likely to bring in quite a lot of respect­able people who have been canvassers to the Charity Organisation Society and had the p]eemrc of seeing 16s. in the £1 go to over­head and the LJance of 1s. t'o the allegPd char it.,·.

There are penalties for fortune-telling. which mean taking away from quite a lot of silly ,.,·omen the only pie -.,ure they have in life. When there is nothing much ahead but £1 7:. per we<"k un.dcr this Government'·; trc1nc~Jdous ~chcn1e for the relief of unonl­ploymcllt. it' would be almost cruel to take awav from a woman the fortun0-teller's prm;1i~e of " large GUantitics of Inoney earn­ing ,Yith a dark rnan from oyer the E<ea/' althoug-h the promise will never be realised. (Laugl1ter.) The fortune-teller certainly wants getting to, but I believe in this c1so th<' penaltiPs are again too gTeat.

In the matter of prostitution, the Aus­tralian prostitute is very much like her English counterpart. Any man travelling or li,·ing in Europe knows that prostitution in France and Italy is almost respectable by reason of the fact that the prostitutes are not alcohol or drug addicts, as they are in Germany, England, the United States of America, or Australia. Japan has made the prostitute most respectable. You find cases where the excellent scheme of collection and registration has produced less evils from prostitution than in any other country of the "oriel. The~· haYe made the business respect­able and even artistic. The colour scheme and schemes of decoration in the settlements known as "Yoshiwarra," especially that in 'l'okio, are conducted on such lines that the artistic eye is pleased. Yet behind that is lurking the worst form of slavery ever known on earth. In 1872, Japan, which has always licensed prostitutes, proclaimed the libcrtv of these women. From 1872 to 1931 is a long time, but they are no more free no'i\" than ever they were. The peculiar hypocrisy of the Japanese enables-not all of them but a fair percentage of them-to regard it as quite a respectable thing that a man should sell his daughter or his sister into vrostitution, and take the money and leave it as her debt to be worked off by herself. Like most men he is able to salve his soul by writing bad poems in which he sh·lcs the fallen sister "a lotus fallen in th.e mud," without any reference to the gentleman who took the money and threw the lotus into the mud. As the result of going into prostitution under that debt in the ratio of her attractiveness, so is her trouble of ever coming out of that place again. In 1930, there were 48,000 licensed prostitutes in Japan. The statistics, which are carefully kept by the municipalities, showed that there were 22,000,000 visits to the "Yoshi­warra "-an average of 536 '>'isits per woman per annum. Girls who have escaped-they are rare-a·re capable of being arrested by the pdice. and again taken to the "Yoshi­'"" rra " to work out. the debt. I agree with the hYo preYious speakers that prostitution is an apparently ineradicable- evil, anrl the best thing- is that it should be regulated, and disease should be made almost impossible of being transmitted : and to that extent we ~hould get away from this stupid idea

Vagranta, Ga:ning, and [:!0 OCTOBER.] Other Ojj'ences Bill. 1433

that an evil does not exist if it cannot be seen. There should be a district or districts provided for these people ; and any means hy which they aro retained longer in that business by debt or any other such considera­tion should call for the most drastic penalties.

The Home Secretary has mentioned that last· year I brought to his notice the case of a brothel in iho Y alley which was parti­cuLrly objectionable because the nurses of the Valley crcc'1e lived next to it and \Yore contimv lly being accosted. The J1osition in that case was that it was owned by a solicitor -a man who could not be got at under the la\Y. l\iany years ago ·whrn I \Va-;: on tho press in 1Lelbounw c• rtain revelations made during the course of a polic8 court c"Lse sh.owed that four brothels in Napier street, F1tzroy, were owned by the very respectable w1dow of a very respectable and very dead parson. For purposes of reporting, I mad~ the round of these brothels to get particulars of the rental conditions under which the .girls >Yere kept there; and in tho'e r',,,,es It showed that by a very ordinary manipulation of accounts any girl who was attractive enough to be a desirable inmate of these houses was kept there until her attractiveness passed. After having a tre­mendous amount of this evidence collected, it was subsequently discovered that the solicitor for the newspaper, who was also the Chief Slecretary of the State of Victoria, was lend­mg money to the brothel-keeper at 12~ per cent., the overdraft rate being 5~ per cent. All my researches were then dropped with a loud bang ! (Laughter.)

. Th~re are penalties of the worst kind pro­nded m the Bill for obscene publications and there is a ridiculous clause ruling out the defence that the accused did not know the obscenitv 01· indecencv of his act and unle''l he ha·d an~· reasonabl.e opportur:ity of 1n1ow1ng rt, hrs rgnoranC'e rs excusable. It is too much for any sensible community to be aoked to pass a law of censorship which is to be decided by a policeman or other official. ln many cases that which is indecent to one is quite decent to others. Leadin<r un to the general fact that to the very pur~ all things are Impure, there is the fact that, if this ban \Vert• pcrn1rtted as proposed, 've could rule out the Bible with its indecent story of the claughters of Lot, the stm-v of Amnon and Tamar, and the story of Abraham the pan­·derer to Abimelech. \Ve could rule out one of the finest authors of satire-the French writer, Rabelais. \V~ could rule out one of the best of Italian authors-Boccaccio. vVe cou~d rule out f'YE'n "Popys' Diar;;.~." \vhcre that very honest gentleman-one of the most honest men who ever breathed, although he did not think his diary would ever be pub­h~hed. confided to his diarv the trouble he had with his wife through looking too long on the charms of "Deb." \Ve could wipe out Laureuce Stcrne. We should decide that " The Sentimental Journey " was immoral because of its t\yo lines of asterisks. where, after his adventure with the midinette the vYriter ~aid- '

" For the Lord made us and not we ourselves."

the bookseller arrested. To many people Rabelais may be frankly indecent; but he does not become any less indecent because his books are very old and were not written yesterday.

As to the cheme of immediatclv flt th? Yendor·"· of filthy pO;:,t car-et,, ihat tho icL 'L is prlf 1 ·th co1recl, 1nust bf a limit io ~cem:lor:-hip t1_1re or art. Thr'rc one ,_ .1-"·0

'YOWSCl'ish old f{E'lltlernan wac; fo:1cl ing filthy po'3t earth under coYer ... \ YPndor \'arr10 to hi1n on a ~till HlL;. t.::l L.ic night, and n.id. '; G)Yc nh a qul'""'l, lr_n don"t cpcn tht:-s~ until I ~- 1 r-·o~:c, Ot' the poLco ·will get mol" And, whE-n that lrchcrous old geut1enJan got a lir;ht nd looked t.hcm, ho di ,·ow·rccl that the c:-Yelonc ·on­taincd a tract r-~1titlccL •· The .._._. ge•/ of ::'in i~ death." (LuEghtcr.)

The Eo· rE SECIFT.IRY: Ho gol tlw qc;id under false pretences.

Mr. BEDFORD: Yes. awl pcd·:; t:., hon. gentL•n1an could get hnn on that. Vl·] ha,vc not got to thnt forrn of \Vow·.:.:risnl "hich thinks that all statues are obcccn<> because they are naked, and the tolerant Flon'ntinc.: haYe ono of the fin· ·t ltalicries in th; world. the l:fiiooi, llllod ,.ith ctat1· s of :men of hero!<:: cast anJ \'en uses as naked as the day they wero born, but looking none the worse for that. The story goes that on one occasion a collection of Cook's tourists, who represent a fair amount of money to Florence, came to the mayor and asked whether steps could not be taken to make the statues decent. So they called in the local tin­srnith, \Vh 1 was son1cthing of a htunorist . Some of the statu '· were 3 feet high. ,md some of thc•m were 12. Ije cut out a number of tin fig-leaves, all of the same size, and placed them in position, with the result that some of the statues could not be seen, and the salient features of the statues of heroic size wore the fig-leaves coyly so that they concealed nothing. (Laughter.)

c\t 5.2 p.m., Mr. SPE,\!l:ER reSumed the chair.

1\Ir. BEDFORD: i-Ve certainly do not "ant to g·ct back to re-enacting the old Gad laws to the extent that is po>SiblL• in England. There the:· have got their !awe doY>n to .such a fme art that thev contain como of the objectionable feature's of this Bill. I li ,·eel three years' in Europe, and ne·:( r sa\v anything \'Cry wrong there. l think I ~n.id on a previous occasion here that I on! v saw one drunken man in lt<l v in tbree vc~ars. and he was an En.:slish sd.ilo~·. On the other hand, in London people can· be fined trenH~udons an1ounts for 011ening theatre9 on Sunday. In such cases, the la'' pern1it;:; the informn to f;'Ct half the fine: and it was only on appPa 1 in a recent cas'" that tL• woman who had informed ,, g a tll"atro cchich hrd shown pictures on di>'co,·ercd that she had no possiL!e chance of getting ihe £5,000 which repre,cnted half the fine for the alleg"d offence of opening t11c theatre~ on a Sunday. J.\s,,,un1.ing thi~ consorship of ar~ to go on till jt gets to its >YOrst. we would fmd t 11at no statue ol the human bodv b·:· CanoYa or other master,

V\T c would rule oa'. all thrs • fine thing•. in or somo of the- rather gross women of hterature. and \Ye 1you1J cJo it even as badly :\urruan Linclsay; \VOtdd be p0rmitted. -it would bo quito possible to do that- I do agree with the censor who cen· as if a new policmnan suddenly ca:no across so red '; r:ed Ff ra.p " becrtu:3: it is a stupid

·----a--n ew··writer -·named -·Ra b elais;--of -whom- ·he , ... ·book-;···· and -stu pi cl--hooks. sho ul d-be-censo red, had never heard before, and he could have but the general public should be left at

J.l[1'. Redford.l

l43f [ASSK\lBLY.] Other 0 if· .tees Bill.

liberty to do that. The general public would never havo read to the extent of 1,000 of Lindsay's book, but for the fact that nasty people were falling over themselves to get it because they were told they could not get it. It was a simple, dull, and stupid thing t.hat should nenr have seen print. But this does not in any "a' get away from the danger of permitting public opinion on any subject to be trammelled. The opinions of people on politic;; are free, and the opinions of people on matters of art-which are matters of tt:ste more than anything else-should be equally free.

There is a ver:y ba.d provision in the Bill which tends to bring into exi•.tence, even to a grectter extent than before, the agent provoca.tcur or th,. police agent. It must be ncognioed that, even if a tremendous amount of la •; i < required for the purpose of protecting the decent public against the criminal element, it has alilo to be remem­bered that a tremendous amount of law was required to protect the decent pul)lic against the police. At the beginning of the police S\ >tPm in England we had the thief catch or, such as Mr. Jonathan ·wild; and it was Wild's genial habit to let the big fellows escape and saYe them from the gallows beca-use the amount they could pay was commcnslP'ate with the enormitv of their crime. It was also his habit to keep in with Bow street by eending the little thieves to the gallows, from which I assume this old proverb arose-" Little thin·es are hanged by the neck and great thieves are hanged by the purse." Th<· agent provocateur and men who " frame " others are all bad in themse!Yes. They a.re wrong, and cannot be defended in any possible wa~·. The defini­tion of "Yac:-rant" in th8 Bill n1av include idle rich men. no matter how much money they carry. The idea of converting loafers into decent men is good, if practicable, and if th~ means adopted do not place innocent men in danger of the police. I do not know whether it is intended or not, but by this Bill we can easily return to the conditions of 1891, when Sir Samuel Griffith stated-

" I gave instructions tc Colonel French in the afternoon to send, by a steamer advertised to leave at 5 o'clock, the men of the permanent force, with a Norden­feidt !:JUn and a licld-pieu~."

When that order was giYen, there were great doubts whether they would arrive in tirpe. In opening the tenth Parliament of Queens­la.nd, the Governor caid-

" I deeply rep·et that, notwithstand­ing the bountiful provisions of Provi­dence in the form of exceptionally rfavouraqle se:tsonc, the prosperity of the colony has been most injuriously affected by an organised attempt to ovenir1e the reign of law and order, and to preYent the carrying on of one cf our Inod important producing industries cxu pt in accordance with the dictates of an irre;ponsible tyranny. The opera­none of this org·anisation (now the Aus­tralian ·workers' Union) which some­iln1es see1ned to assu1no an insurroc6on­ar~· character, extended over a ver0 large area of the interior, and for a time there appeared grave danger that th,p freedom of men to pursue their lawful a v x:1 tions under the protection of the lcnY ,,·oultl be seriously in1paired."

" My Ministers recognised that it is the first duty of every civilised Govern-

[MT. Bedford.

ment to secure this freedom to its citi .. z•-ns, and took prompt measures accord­ingly. 'The ordinary police force being naturally insufficient to deal with so extensive a combination, it was found necosss.ry to cdl out large bodies of the defence force in aid of the civil power."

The " other offences " clauses of this Bill can ven· easily be used for strike breaking if the continuous lowering of wages grows to such an extent that men have no other recourse than in direct action. If the prin­ciple of arbitration is taken away from the workers, they have a right to resort to direct action. T,hat is the only other alternative. It is brutal and clumsy, I admit, but, at the same time, no other course is open to them. This new vagrant law could he used as a means of putting every ctriker into gaol. Being on strike, he could no longer get any sustenance from the Government; and, not being· in a position to get sustenance from the Government, he would then depart from safety from arrest, and be classed as a man having no visible lawful means of support.

The HOME SECRETARY: Tha-t clause is already in the existing Act, and has been t.herc all the time.

Mr. BEDFORD: I know that, but. if it has not been used in the past, why put it in this Bill?

The HmiE SECRETARY: Why shouldn't it be re-enacted?

Mr. BRDFORD: Bad laws that are re" enacted live only until by their very rotten­ne~s they are repealed without, in fact, being put into operation. ·when the Government re-enact a new bw in vvhich are many sec~ tions of the old law, they immediately give those sections which fell into desuetude beeause of their rottenness a new lease of life.

The HOME SECRETARY : ="o one has been arrested under them until now.

Mr. BEDFORD: Persons were arrested under that law in 1891, and we see some danger of returning to those conditions. We· haYe alreadv returned to the economic con­ditions of those da~·s, and no doubt sooner or later we ·.hall return to those conditions by which the Gon'rnment of the day justified themselYes in putting that law into operation.

Mr. COOPER (IJ,.erne,.) [5.12]: It is very eYiclent that the Bill we are considering is by no means the Bill that rumour, hints, and dark allusions h -:1 u .. to belien· it would be. It has by no means the drastic power that it was supposed to have, nor do I believe that it will have the general effect­iveness which the Home Secretary desires.

The Bill has three main sections­" Yagranev," "gan1ing." and " other offen­ces." In the past there was a general grouping of these three sections. "Vag-1::-anc:v, and "other offences" \Yere always grouped togeth0r, and there is no reason why that grouping should not be continued. Ono c-ains impres·;ion from a perusal of the Bill that the provisions dealing with gaming and crime have been brought some­what up to date There is a demand from the police and departmental point of view for effective legislation to deal with those off ePees; but the GoYernment have re­enacted a clause dealing with vagrancy that is almost 100 years old. No one could con­tend that a definition of vagrancy which was

Vagrants, Gaming, and [20 OCTOBER.] Other Offences Bill. 1435

effe ·rive over 100 years ago would meet the conditions of to-day. If there has been a general advance in our condition~. as there has been. surely the Minister has some means of dtfming a vagrant without going back lOO years!

The HmiE SECRETARY: \Ve are just carry­ing forward the definition.

:VIr. COOPER: That is a great defect. The Minister is merely carrying forward an Act ,,-hich was passed in New South Wales in 1851.

The Ho~m SECRETARY: The clause you mention is alreadY in force. We have not rescinded it. ·

JHr. COOPER: It will not be rescinded until this Bill is in force. That part·icular Act of 1851 was passed before Queensland secured separation from New South \Vales. That provisio:1 was taken from an Act passed by the Imperial Parliament away back in 1822-o er one hundred years ago. It is remarkable to think that the provisions which applied to the vagrant long before 1822 are being allowed to apply to people who could be more correctly clc,cribed to-day as the indigent poor. Long enough ago Blackstone commented upon the fact that an ancient statuto de.;cribed the vagrant as such as "wake by night and sleep by clay, and no man \YOt by whence they come nor whither they go.'' That gets Yery close to the vagrant of the day, because it was only a little time after that was the position, as pointed out by Blackstone, that vagrancy consisted in sleeping out, refusal to perform tasks, such as tasks sef in the poorhouses, and destroying the clothing given to people in the poorhouses. Those were considered to be the vagrants of those days, and it is remarkable that the ven· same law operated more than ono hundred years ago-probably t\YO hundred ye:us ago-that is being incor­porated in this Bill to-day, because, as' tho Home Secretary sa:; s, there may bo some need to use it on some special occasion. No doubt the hon. member for \Van·ego supplied the reason.

The HmlE SECRETARY : It will not be used ally more than it has bec>n used ·during the last hundred years.

::vir. COOPER: It has been used during the last hundred years on many occasions when it ought not to have been used. It has been used to arrr··.t people.

The HO:\lE SECRETARY: That dC'finition of vagrant in the old Act refers to a person in normal times.

::\Ir. COOPER : The Act refers to people at all time c. There is no such thing a& normal or abnonnal in the.;;o n1attcrs. In

the Minister has not a clear idea a~ to clrfinitions. mav I read them? The 1822

Impcrirt! Act and i:he 1851 ::\"ew South Wales Act tu!\·e thi:~ description of "vagrant"-

" EYery person who, having no visible lawful means who shall not, being duly sqnnnoncd for ~uch purpose, give a good arcuu'lt of his or her means of support ro the satisfaction nf such justice.''

The clause included in the Bill we are now discu~sing describes a Y-".grant as any person who-

,, Having no visible lawful means of support or insufficient lawful means, does not. on being charged before a {:ourt, give to its satisfaction a good account of his means of support."

The Home Se~retary suggested that the Yagrant must be connected up in some way \Yith some criminal intent. That is not in the Bill, nm· can it be found there. A vagra qt is cleady defined as a person who has no lawful me;,ns of support or no visible rnean;; of support; and, whether he is con­necLe-d up >Yith a crime by intent to do a crime or consorting does not enter into the question. Th~ Hmm SECHETARY : But the person you

mention has visible means of support-that is to s :>, he gets rations.

Mr. COOPER: The hon. gentleman may ,,ay so, and I hope that the person getting r~ttions, insufficient as they may be, has some means of support; but it is possible for that insufficient means of support to be cut away. It ne, d not necessarily bo cut away by the law ; it' may be cut a way by departmental action; and that immediately causes all these people who aro now exelttded from the vn grancy law by reason of a departmental act to be made vagrants also by a depart­mental act. To make it possible for the department to make vagrant,, out of people who are to-day not vagrants is worse than the right to amend the Bill by Order in Council after a Bill has been passed ; and the Minister, in drafting this measure, could have found some means for describing a vagrant other than by going as far back as 1822 to get his definition.

The vagrant in th0 old clays was considered to be a menace becmse he might not accept work that was offering. If a man was kept at the poorhouse and refused the duty allotted to him the next morning, he could be ea lied a vagrant. If he slept by day and waked by night, he was not conforming to the general law of the State as it was ii' those detvs, and he had to take whatever remplovment was offered to him, irrespective of the' "ages; and the man not doing that in thos• cla:.s was liable to be whipped 'ram the plac,, where he refus'ed the work back to his own parish, and tD be whipped through evcr.v coun(· through which he pac.sed. Tlw provisions in this Bill, although they arc not '1 Xprcf.~ly as definite as that 1

co1·e still framed with the s·tmc idea of con­trolling the inr! igent poor; and that is not in accordance with the definitions that have been given in connection with other claus·es of the B;!l.

The sections df_ ding wjth f an1ing arc much mor,' to tbe point, aitbmn:h the;<- have with t ~1em t'w t '_int thnt '' cb w-;•;c>ci-.t--d vvith the law one hundrN1 yca1·s ago. Early English ~tatutcf fhO''- that g,trning \Yas snppresscd because ;t interfered 1· ith number of thing-~'. J.- j tcrfcrcd with pr~Lctiee of archcn·. far bnck as tLc dav·s of Edwa.rd II.: ;:~ncl c0rtainlv in the rl-i.gn of IIcnry Y IT I. football and f'inJilar ganh_ , 1Y<- -·c pro­hibited ou th0 petition of tho ~trrow-head 1nakc1·,. ..... bc•~nu:e it Y as fo<~nd that archcrv WQS falling into decay. \Ye loave arri,-ed a't the t-i:me 1rh<'n nuu y g-rtrnes an pern1issiblc; aul the only ones not permissible arc tho"e \YhicL arc ass'oc int~d with the sh-;_king of ;JJonc"·. GaJnPs that ,,.Pro w ,oriated with the f-takjng of nlon(•~· one hundrt. 1 years a;-o were prohibited b~cause the:· dr"'"N wm~kmen :n1d from their work i:o play, and L ,·Ln'-'~' and Inanv snbtlc and craft.v persons found :mnny ne\v and crafty g-an1e8, to wit. slide-thrift and shoYe-groat," and kept hons'es and aJ1o:-s whereby these games might he played to the detriment of thE>

Mr. CMper.l

1436 Vagrants, Gaming, and [ASSE1\IBLY.J Other Offences Bill,

gentlc<r1en of England, . nrl be-cause their servants a::.1d 1Yorkn1cn dcscrtrd their work and their service that they rni-;ht play these g·amn. The Bill still has tint taint in it. It still pro£ .:sse::> to be concerned .a bout th~~ ~-mall games tl.• 1t may be played, whereas' :it rccoJni~cs the larger games that are pla~. ed for big stakes, w hi eh a re allo1ved to go on.

Then it has bee-n condemned, not so much because there is an clement of chance <'lbout it, Lut most!:· bcc:msc it is' to the detriment of the payment of just and 1 ·. wfnl debts. People arc liable to wnstc thf ir s:· 1: hnco by g1mbling, and apparently, so long as '1 man can pay his jmt and lawful debts and at the same time is able to gamble vvith the surplu:-:·, there is no crl1n8; 1Jut anybody who pl ,ys these small games men. tioncd in Llw Bill ancl is liable to '::astc his substance comes within the ambit of the law.

There wn,s a time 11 ht~n wagers 1vcro rC'· co-.·erable !Jy law. To.Jay thet is not so, :and w _, £rers· arc not recover · ble nor does this Biil me>l<e them recoverable. 'The courts rather dodged the issue, if they could possibly d'?dge it, and it was a very eminent writer, w1th whom the hon. member for GreiTory may claim some connection-a gentlema~ by the name of Poilock-who pointed out the ;:ay in which the gaming- laws might be overcmnc. He po-inted out that iusticPs could 1·efuse to give decisions on wagering because there were contingencies' on which thev de· }Wnded that wore likely to crc.tte interests contrary to the• common FeaL That is the basis upon which garnbling re _ts to-·da\·-· that it is lil1ble to create interests contr~rv to the common weaL I admit there is a '\'Cry wide difference hc·tw en the instance ,tated by that learned gentlccnan and that <'Ited to-cla:·. The Pollock i:v whom I am referring 'tatcs thrt a bet was· made between t•' o !'Oni!emen as to whether the Emperor Napoleon would die, and a learned judge cancelled the wager becans'e the man in· torcste~ in the Emperor's cl ath might do soudhmg to bnng about the Emperor's death, and the mfln 1,.·rho was interested in kef~ping Krq~wleon a]lyc 1night k1Y•p hin1 alivo to the dctnment of the KiniT of England who _,·as at that time his nat~ral enemy. '

The gambling clauses in the Bill have been broug~t up to date in many respects; but there IS no reason why the old law relating to the ve.ga.bond should be left in the Bill as it is. There is not the slightest doubt that t,he vag~bond in olden times was a person who found hfe har~ and attempted to live along ~he easiest poss1blc hnes. The gambler to-day 15 & man who. seeks the easy way of life; and there IS JUst that connection between those two people that the vagrant seeking an easy way by refusing to work is closely related to the man who refuses to take the w~y of hard work and decides to live by his Wits as a gambler. That connection no longer exists. The indigent poor as we know them to-day are victims of rt system that insists upon. a certain _amount of· surplus labour at all times. It 1s due to an ancient fetish that is gradually dying, but nono the less holds a certain amount of sway-the old fetish of supply and demand that, when there IS gre.:1t supply and little demand, things must be cheap; and. when there is great demitnd and little supplv things must be dear That was applied to labour in the ancient days; and. when there was little demand and a large supply of labour, labour was

f lVIr, Cooper.

cheap and mnployment was not obtainable; and the man became a vagrant and possibly a menace to the State by roa,son of the fact that in his wanderings he might deprive some person of that which he had accumu· latcd.

To-day we have made other pronswn than that. The St&te now recognises that it has some duty to perform in looking after people who are so unfortunate as not to be able to get work under the system that is in vogue to-day. That being so, the great cry against the vagrant "·hich existed 100 years ago Jocs not exist to-day. I think that if the Home Secretary has time to alter that clause ho might definitely exclude those people from the operation of the BilL

A Gov;:R:-I211ENT YIE'IIBER: 'They won't be hurt at alL "

Mr. COOPER: If that is the case, why not withdraw it from the Bill? If they are not to be hurt, then I would suggest to the Minister to put an amendment which will make it plain that they are not to be hurt. The Minister knows that that provision is well over 100 years of age. The young policeman---the man fresh in the force who reads the Act--will come across something of which ho does not know the full meaning, and he will be keen to use it. I can see much abuse of thi.> portion of the Bill because of its misuse. I fear that the por· tion to which I am objecting will be used greatly to the detriment of the people of the State.

In regard to the crime proYisions, a definite improvement has been made in that regard. There has been an attempt to bring those provisions up to date. A crime has been defined as a failure or refusal to live up to the standard of conduct deemed neces,ary by the rest of the community; and, because the Yag>·ant rcfus_s to live up to the standard of the community, and because the gambler seeks an easy method of living rather than honest hard toil and is not living up to the standard of the community, I suppose those are the reasons why the vagrant, the gamc~ter, and the criminal are all included in this one n1casure. But crime varies. \Vhat wa·s a crime 100 years ago may not bo a crime to-day; and many things that were not crimes 100 years ago are crimes to-day. Ono hundred years ago family feuds 'Ye re not regarded as crimes ; and a man was supposed to forfeit his manhood if he refused to exact that justice which he thought ought to be exacted horn people who had injured his familv. To-elM· it is a crime for a man to take the law into his own hands, whereas 100 yearo ago he was regarded as not worthy of the name of a man if he did not himself avenge the death of a kinsman. Heresy was a crime less than 100 years ago, and people ,,~ere se,~ercly puni~h~.:d for diff'.•rjng from thP belief >Yhirh hn.ppenocl to he current. That rloe>:; not apply to l' 1iglons heresy to~day, although I think it applies in a great measure b1 political heresy. I know hon. members in this House ha,ve frequently heard the cxpres· sion applied to nnious people who have certain political views-particularly the communists-that they ought to be shot, and that that would be the best way to got rid of them. Communism is not a crime.

A man mct:v hold whatever particular viP>n he likes. hut he ought not to be punished for it; yet the l\'Iinister attempts

'Vagrants, Gaming, and [20 OCTOBER.] Other Offences Bill. 1437

n m. ke the Bill apply to ·what he might regard as political heresy. Ono hundred ye:us ago science ran counter to the accepted doJmar of the day, to-day it is dilrercnt. I wtwt to point out that the },Iinioter has gono as far back as the 1822 Act to get some of the clauses for his Bill.

The Ho· m SL,'RETARY : It is nec-?ssary to ha vo these powers, but it does not mean that they will always be exercised.

:\lr. COOPER: The Minister must remember that, although he says that in practica-l administration these things will not be done, at the same time they can be done; a:1d I ask him to ri '9 above his own environment and to include in this Bill clau-d which will protect the indigent poor who may be declared vagrants.

The Hm!E SECRETARY : I will tell you why it is necv,sar:: h have the provision. The polin in a country district may be looking for a suspicions character. There may be a stranger in t~IG locality under suspicious circc1mstances. The only thing they can do is to arrest him as being a vagrant so that they can make inquiries. That is all the clause means; but you say the police should not h"ve this power.

Mr. COOPER: No. I believe that the polic0. should have the power; but I say that there are people who, through no fault of their own, find themselves within this definition of "vagrant." I grant that a man who is idle and disorderly ought to be classed as a vagrant, but a man who is merely idle and has no means of support, who is idle by reaBon of the fact that he cannot g<'t employment and has no visible means of support by virtue of the same fact, should not be classed as a vagrant, and therefore liable to arrest. That is the weak spot in the Bill, and I point it out to the Home Secretary. Some of the provisions of the Bill have been the law for 100 years. If a man w.1s found in a house of ill-fam·e 100 years ago he could be classed as a vagrant. That provision is ta-ken word for word from the 1851 Act, an Act that was not even passe-d by the Queensland Parlia­ment. but which was taken over as one of the 'statutes of New South \Vales when Queensland was constituted a separate co!onv. That Act in its turn was taken from "the Imperial Act of 1822, and the hon. gentleman oug·ht to remember that the law that suited the circumstances of a period as far back as 1822 does not suit the cir­cnmst.·.nces of the year 1931. I know that one of the difficultics in dealing with crime lies in giving the police the necessary time to make their investigations; but, unfor­tunately, powers such us this Bill contains ma v be used in a way which is not for the geJJeral good of the community, and people may be injured beca1be they are suspected of crimi:.ality. As we know, criminality may arise fron1 any one of three n1ain causes.

The main one is greed, and I understand that greed represents something like 75 per <'•"nt. of criminal cases, malice 15 per cent., and lust as low down as 10 per cent. Greed is recognised by people who have written on the subject as being the main cause for crimes. So the Home Secretary will be doing something to wipe out crime, or at least something- to lc,son crime in the community, if he will do something that is likely to lessen the greed of the average human

being. Tw only way in which that can be lessened is by making better provision for the people living to-day. There is a big section of the community who, by reason of economic circumstances, are compelled to 1Yalk the country day after day, week after welk, month efter month, in search of employment; and, whilst these circumstances exist, there is a greater likelihood of the recurrence of crime. The Minister stated a moment ago that people wandering about the country can be arrested for vagrancy so that the police may be given sufficient time to make other inquiries. Why do the police arrest a vagrant? Because he is a man without any lawful means of support, and, being in that particular situation, he might be forced to commit a crime so that he might have some means of livelihood.

Th' HOME SECRETARY: He is arrested only when he is suspected of somo other crime. The hon. member does not know of any young man who has been arrested by the police in different circumstances and c.harged with vagrancy.

Mr. COOPER: The Minister has stated that these people are arrested so that the police can make further investigations into crimes that have been committed.

The HOME SECRETARY : Yes; but such cases arc few and far between.

Mr. COOPER: They are not. They are very frequent indeed-much more frequent than the Minister supposes. A man is arre•ted and sometimes taken long distances. He is locked up for at least seven davs. He is charged and remanded for seven da~'s, brought before the court again, re­manded for another seven days, brought before the court again. and then probably discharged. '

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Can you give one such instance?

Mr. COOPER: I can give a number. ]\.fr. Km wAN: The Gatton murder.

Mr. COOPER: I was going to refer to the Gatton murder. A man 100' miles from Gatton was arrested on that particular occasion.

The HOME SECRETARY: There was only one man arrested-a man named Burgess.

Mr. COOPER: More than one man was arrested. Practically every swagman was arrested and taken to the court for inter­rogation. That is common know-ledge. The old law, which is _well over 100 years old, perm1ti<'d the pohce to arrest a man in suspicious circumstances, or to arrest a swag~ man, or what was known as a vagrant-a man who had no lawful means of support--­but those circumstances do not obtain to the same extent to-day. There is no need for that particular provision to-day. I have a!r~ady stated that _there I!lust be some pro­VlSJOll to control 1dle disorderly persons, but, unless people are disorderly·, I cannot see that there is anything in the nature of a crime or any reason why they &hould be anested simply because they are idle.

There is quite a lot in the Bill which the Minister has not told the House. Prac­tically the whole of the vagrancy law, except perhaps the enactment of the provision deal­ing with consorting, is contained in the old vagrancy law. There is really no improve­ment whatever on that law.

The H01.1E SECRETARY: When whv object to these powers? -

.lrl r. Cooper.]

1438 Vagrants, Gaming, and [ASSEMBLY.) Other Offencos Bill.

Mr. COOPER: The Minister has had an opportunity to bring in a Bill more in keep­ing with things as they are and more up to date. \Vhen I refer to the old vagrancy charges, he will see how inapplicable the provisions are to a man having no lawful ineans of support. The provision dealing with a person wandering with an aboriginal or a child was in the 1851 Act.

The provision declaring a hal:litual drunkard a vagrant was in the 1851 Act. The provioion respecting consorting or fre­quentiDg a hou2e where thieves associate, and the provic:ion relating to p~rsons having no lawful visible means of support "were also in the sa1no Act.

One of the few things that are new is a proYision which c}_:flr~s any mj_ne or clai1n taken up under " The Mining _\et of 1898 " as a place whore a man or men can be found without lawful excuse. It is just as well if I inquire why a mine was inserted in this measure? vV as it inserted to make provision in case of a strike at a mine? Has it been found that the vagrancy law is not applicable to a mine? Under certain circumstances a miner would simply be a vagrant within the scope of this Bill, and conoequcntly would be liable to apprehen­sion because he may be found m or near a mine.

The Hmm SECRETARY: If the hon. member would only 1-ead the opening words of that provision, he would see the ',vords " with­out la,wful excuse," which would show him the real meaning of the provision. Surely that is fair enough !

Mr. COOPER: That covers such a. lot, and, if the old vagrancy lo.w was good enough in all other re ·.pects, why was it found necessary to make that specific pro­Yision in this Bill?

The HoME SEC '!ETARY : It might happen that a person would l;e found about to .descend a mine to blow it up.

Mr. COOPER: The old vagrancy law would provide for that. vYas the definition of a " place " not sufficiently large to cover a n1ine? The I\J:inistcr must have son1e better excuse for including a " mine" as a place where a person can be apprehended "Under those vagrancy clauses.

The HmrE SLCRETARY : A person could run a two-up school down a mine, or in the bounds of a mine.

Mr. f'OOPER: The Minister now has all the wide powers which he seeks in this Bill to define a " place," but if he finds that his powers arc not sufficiently wide he can take pov,er under an Order in Council to further define it. The long-standing con­tention regarding what is a place, and what is not a placn, and what is a public place, and what is not a public place, have been completely swept away by this BilL

The Hmm SECRETARY: A few cases con­cerning mines have been upset because " place " was not sufficiently specified.

Mr. COOPER: I hope that the Minister will give this House a specific case, but at present this clause creates a suspicion that it has been inserted for a specific purpose. If it is just for the purpose of dealing with two-up schools then that difficulty could be overcome by the draft.sman including a mine as a place.

In conclusion, I desire to pa.y a compli­ment to the Parliamentary Draftsman. There

[lflr. Cooper.

ha.-.;;e Le ~n nunltrous occasions when cruel things have been said about draftsmen. 'When we find an occasion thee! the drafts­Jnan is 1.vorthy of our con1n1endation we chould give it to him. The 1851 Act is a most interesting Act, and some of its pro­vi,,ions v;cre tal: en frcm the l822 Act. Let 1ne rncHtion Dne paragraph in this Bill which is re-enn cted from both those Acts-

'{ EYery in1plen1ent~ offensiv....: vveapon, ins:t'·ument., drug, ~ubstance, and thing referred to in pnr '6-rapha (viii.) to (xi.) hereof, both inc],sive, shall by the con­viction of the offender 1Jecon1e forfeited to His Majesty."

'That is a fairlv comprc•hcnsive definition. The ·draftsman of the Act of 1851 had to

be much more definit. . I'l that _\et we find this-

" ... Every >::Uch picldock key crow jack bit or other implement and every such gun pistol hanger cutlass bludgeon or other offensive weapon and every such instrument as aforesaid shall by the un­viction of the offender become forfeited to the Queen's :Majesty."

The Ho"IE SECRETARY: That will come under the definition of " implement of house­breaking."

Mr. COOPER: Yes. It shows much more skilled drafting on the part of the pn•,ent draftsman than was the case in the 1851 Act; and, considering th,,.t the main por­tions of the Bill were taken from the Act of 1822, I am rather surprised that the old phras~ology waJ not kept up. It is rather a pity to destroy the continuity in th.at way. If we have an Act passed by the Imperial Parliament in 1822, incorporated in an Act passed in New South :Wale·' in 1851, and rein­corporated in an Ac'. passed in 1931, why destroy the continuity of the thing? Why should not the Minister have retained that. as he retained the Ycl.grancy clausco,? Rurely there would be as much renson for the one as for the other! I grant that times have changed. It has been shown by the Minister that times have changed in regard to the implements and firearms used. Going back to a statute quoted by Blackstone as to the instrum nts used, we find this provision with regard to the carrying of eapons-

" And ono hath a bow with taut gut that twangeth and likewise a trusty nrrow, also ye sling from which an heavy stone sli ppeth silently yet surely or ye hefty stick with heavy knubblcs that sinketh in when the strong arm bringeth it with might and main upon ye pate''

Those were the instruments and implements that were defined as illegal for a man to carry in those days. It \\as found in 18§1 that they ought to be brought up to date; and in Queensland the Mini,tor has brought them up to ·date by bringing these matters under the Fir.,anm Act recently pass,d. If the hon. g·entloman can amend the portions relating to crime, to the carrying of fin· .arms, and to gaming, in ordor to brjng these matters up to date and recognise things as they arc, I cannot uLdorstand why he felt it incumbent upon himself to include in this Bill the vagrancy laws which wore in force over one hJ<ndred years ago.

The S'CRETARY FOR R\ILWAYS: 'What are you trying to prove?

Mr. COOPER: 'rhat there is a desire to retain the old vagrancy laws of over one

Vagrants, Gaming, aml [20 OCTOBER.) Other Offencc9 Bill, 1439

'hundred ve:tr~ that they :rnay be used in spcciaf as occa:sion arises. I honestly they are to be used for the suppre~ si on of strikes, for the arrebt of leadrrs of industria.l rnoYcnrents, and for the arrest of any people who may be considered by the people jn au: }wnt:· as a nronac(~ to then1. l;c:Jplc out of work are not a menace in the ""' v that the old vagr::mcy law made then1 a 1n~ena('0: .::tLLl. if it not a n1enacu in that direction. then it a crime to include in this ·Bill a description of a vagrant that v ts a good and lu,wful descrip­tion one hundred or one hundred and fifty years ngo.

:.vir. POLLOCK (GrcqHy) [5.49]: Un­doubtedlY tl1i. is a very conientiouc Bill. It must bo contention.; Bill becrructe it has been flirted with by so many Governments, brought almost to the doors of Parliament, and then dropped. As a matter of fact, 1t was actually introduced by a previous Go­vernment and then dropped.

The ScCRETiRY FOR RAILWAYS: The Govern­ments were afraid to go on with it.

Hr. POLLOCK: No; I think Govern­ments in the past recognised that it was a dano-erous Bill to go on ·with-not that Gov7,rnments w2!'e air cid, but that they realised that some of the evils the Bill sought to cute would not be so dangerous as the Temedy it was proposed to apply.

\Vhn1 I t~," th tt Hw Bjll j~ n contentious Bill. I clo not mean thrrt ev, e:·thing in the Bill should be · nor do I belieye oe sav th~t there not plc 1ty in the Bill that 1s v;o ·thv of cornnH'nchtion hy e,-cry hon. member.· I belieYc tbaJ thr .e are many good provisionJ in this Bill; but there c-:nnot be the slig-:1tc't possible doubt that there aro c 1 JYious dangers' in it.

rrho ::\rini~1·er did not tell th0 1-Tonse th..) first princ;plc upou '· htch the Bill is to bn a,(hnlnist,- rl d. 1-f c 1eft us to draw the In­fcrcnc~J. No daub-:- ho rccdi~ef!. that. 1.':o ere all av-·,lre of the ba is 11pon which i:his Bill ,., ill \; administnrcd: but it will not bo administered !r the Minister w muc;, as it .,.,ill be adoinis'tored by the police, who are aw.lY from tho control of the :\1inister most of the time; and th'lt i, the reason why all fH'f:'Vj01l8 c{)~,-crnrnents dropp"d this Bill -nol Lec~mso the police, generally speak­ing, were not reliable people, but because some of them were unreliable. I think we all knew that, as c, general rule, the police a.rc reliable nnd de"cnt people, but \ve all realise th .. tt there arc some policemen-the Minister Till not denY tbi .. either-who can­r:~t be trusted with tho drastic powers that ar' being given under this' Bill. While :;·cu mi~ht a .;ne that 80 per cent. or 90 per cent. or a l1iv,her porccJ1tago of thB police are conscientions, capable, and willing to adminster the Act in an impartial and proper manner, you cannot say that all of the police are capable and willing to do that; there­fore, the powers that are given are so drastic that it hr,s L,cen feal'Nl in the past to give those all tlw policP. Th.ct is re; llv the reason the Bill has been dro:1pcd Oy 1Jrt vions Govcrnn1onts. \\Then the ~'\Iinister S·a,-,~ that he ,,,jl} give that the police will not take under this Tiili he talking chec•lc He know will take that or not.

The SECRET.\RY FOR R \IL\V ·,ys: That o.pplie3 to every Act they administer.

Mr. POLLOCK : Of course it does; but it <:pplics n1orc so in this c1se than in the other case-, bcl.auso in this case sunuuary pO\VCr is ~;ivcn lo tl1<: poEcc to enable thern to act without l'v1inisteria 1 authority or with­out the autLority of ·their immediate superiors-the Cmnmissionor, the insrwctors, and the scr:. :ant; of police. It is because c \·ery policernan in the force is' giv-en thiB lYlYYer to act that the danger will arif: :. K J :=.lini6ter can gi' o an assurance that PYer .. ' member of the police force ie so loyal and honest and so thoroughly trustworthy that he cm l.o relied on to admini,ter the Act without instructions from his superior offic2r; consequently, the individual police· 11Hlll Wjll have to e";:erc]so authoritv and US'Q

his O'Yn jud,;mcnt. Where that ·authority and where that judgment are good. and where the intention on the part of tho policc~man is good, the 111' astfl:'e will be fairlv administered;. but where the intention on the part of the policeman is revenge. where it is a desire to harass-and therp haYa been such cas(JS in every police force in the world-then that pm>, r becomes a great danger.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTIOX : That is' the exceptiou.

Mr. POLLOCK: I hope it 1s the excep­tion. It will be a pitc for the State if it should pro'. not to be the ex,:e11tion.

2lly spo.Lking, :vou c~,~ tho police ".: ide PO'• · ·~··,: bnt. in desire to

thi' law propcll,,, lot of in-people ma:; be made to ••ffcr. l

,vh0 thcl' the bnrassing of innocent l)l'oplc is rnore dusir-1ble than p~ nuitting a fr- ,, odd crimiLals' to The :motive 1Jeh1ncl tho intro:luct~on B;] is o¥ itself sound.

Tho Minister says that a largo number of criminals have been driven by the Criminal Consorting Acts of other States into Queens­land, and that in order to deal with those criminals, to mable the police to have the authority and power to apprehend them, it is necessar:· to gi>·e these drastic powers to the police. 'Vith that none of us can find any fault, no matter on which side of the House we may sit. It is not my intention to codeavour to put up a case for criminals -they are the last people for whom I would endeavour to raise any plea-but every per­son who will be apprehended under this measure will not be a criminal. Grave abuses can occur here if the individual policeman is not thoroughly reliable. They have taken place to my knowledge without this type of legislation at all. Anv number of instance: have come under my' notice where individual policeman have abused the trust that has been placed in them. While I have had cases brought before me that were no doubt water-tight and true in every detail, s.howing unnecessary persecu· tion by the police, still I have been unable to prove those cases to the satisfaction of the Commissioner or the Minister, and the cul­prits have gone soot-free. That has happened without the police havin;; had these drastio po.c·ers. Under these drastic powers no doubt greater abuses will Ltke place among that minority of policemen who apparently are as much concerned with harassing people as with presen-ing law and order. There cannot be a shadow of doubt that these policemen exist, and an examination of the records of the Home Department will prove it.

Mr. Pollock.]

1410 Vagrants, Gaming, and [ASSElllBL Y.] Other Offences Bill.

In rcgrrrd to the question of -vagrancy, the Minister has given the House an assurance that men who are travelling in search of y,rork-men \vho arc receiving travellers' rations 'in one town and are compelled to walk tJ the n~''t before they can get a further supply of rations a, week later-will not be penalised by the police, and the hon. gcntle­mryn says he will stake his reputation on that.

The Hol!E SECRETARY: I said they will not be de"ned ve"grants under this Bill.

Mr. POLLOCK: The Minister said that he would stake his reputation that the police would not haraes them as vagra,nts.

The H 0:\IE SECRETARY : Provided they are honest men.

Mr. rOLLOOK: How can any Minister stake his rnputation on what a policeman in \Yinton, Boulia, Camooweal, or any other out-of-the-way place will do?

The HOME SECRETARY: He will know how to deal with the matter.

Mr. POLLOCK : Tha,t brings us to the crux of the argument, which the Minister ought to understand-perhaps he does not. The point is this : If a, charge is made by a policeman under the vagrancy clauses, you have to take the word of the man who is down and out, without friends and without a penny, a,gainst the word of the policeman. Our experience, as legislators and as men of the world, ia that, even if a, man is an influential citizen with friends among member., of Parliament, or even if he is a member of Parliament, it is difficult to have his word taken against the \\"Ord of a, police­man.

The HOME SECRETARY: Constable Kyle was sacked by the then Home Secretary on the word of a prostitute.

Mr. POLLOCK: I do not know about tha,t. I know that experience shows that the average man who is down and out will not have his word taken against that of a police­man if his case is tried.

It is unfortunate that at this time, of all times in the history of Queensland, we should be passing a Bill dealing with vag­rancy. I suppose that at a, conservative estimate there are at lea,st 40,000 men in Queensland to-day who have no lawful visible means of support, I accept the Minister's assurance that he does not propose to deal wit,h workless men simply because they are out of work.

The HOME SECRETARY : This is merely re­enacting the old law.

Mr. POLLOGK: That does not alter the fact that a law re-ena,cting an old law, as the hon. member for W an·ege pointed out, gives to that old law a fresh lease of life, and in this pa,rticular cl a use we are dealing with men who are out of work through no fault of their own. The Minister says he will not deal with workless men simply bt cause they are out of work, but he will not have control of every policeman, nor will he be able to w&tch every policeman, or foretell the extent to which workless men may have to go to get something to eat. Let me put this case to the Minister-and in all probability this sta,te of things will continue to grow as time goes on unles' this depression lifts very speedily. Every single man gets Ss. worth of rations once a week. He iB compelled to travel to the next town or police sta,tion before he can get another

[Mr. Pollock.

Ss. worth of rations seven days la,ter. That Ss. worth has to kee;1 him seven daye, The average 1nan who is out of work can consume that amount of rations at the very outside in tl11"e•· days. What is going to happen to him at the end of the third day? He ia forced to adopt one of two alternatives. If he cannot get work-and it is almost impossible for men to get work to-day­he must either beg or steal. The Minister says that he will not have the police arrest these men merely because they are workless unless they start cadging. B·~,gging is cadg­ing; and as, after three days, they will be forced either to cadge or steal, every single mnn receiving rations can be declared by the police to be a vagrant.

The HOo!E SECRETARY: He can be under the present Act, but he is not.

Mr. POLLOCK: He was never, in the previous history of this Sta,te, driven to adopt the measures he is driven to adopt to-day in order to get a living. He is being driven to adopt the most extra­ordina,ry subterfuges in order to get a living. I have been down and out on more than one occasion, and I know the difficulties of men in such circumstances. These men ha,ve to get a meal somehow or other-men must live, and will live. Self-preservation is the first law of nature.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: These men tra, vel, and they can get food.

Mr. POLLOCK: A ma.n with Ss. worth of rations has probably sufficient rations for three days, after which he must obtain sufficient food to keep him going until he rccci,·eB the next 5s. worth of rations. If the ::\Iinister •,,·ill say there are other metms of enabling him to live apart from h.egginp; or studing, then he will remove the danger thao exists. I ma,intain that under the present system of granting ra,tions every single man in receipt of rations will be a, ,-agrant within the strict meaning of this Dill four da,ys per week.

The HO}!E SECRETARY: No.

::\Ir. P0LLOCK: 'l'here is no getting awr·.· from that. Let us consider the case of ai1 unemployed single man in the country who, under the present ration scale, receives 5s. worth of ra,tions to take him to the next tm..-n. In the Winton district the next town is either Lor;greach, 130 miles away, or Hughenden, 130 miles away, both dry shges. The dista,nce from Winton to Boulia is 240 1niles. 'l'he distanc-es bet,i\:·cr-m towns in the \\'e~t arc lollg, and, although people are hospitable and will give a, man a feed if thev can manage it, the country is inhos­pitable. It is bad conntrv for men to travel on foot; so that it ca,n l)e seen that a man starting out from Longrcach to travel 130 mi]r-.. on foot with 5s. worth of rations in his tu "kN hag is forced into the position of stealing along the road or of begging food in places. Hon. members must know that quite a large nun1ber of selectors in V\:'estern Qneemland to-rhtc- are being rationed by the banks, and a1·e unablo to provide tho neces­sary rations for the large number of men travelling Y,'i th their swags in those districts; so that. where there is a. sheep along the road and a hungry swagman, there- is very soon a, slaughtered sheep. That man is not a, criminal. but this la,w makes him one straight away. That brings me to the point that the man who is down and out has no friends. There are a large number of men.

Vagrants, Gaming, and [:20 0CTOBEB..] Other Offences Bill. 1441

tra veiling long stages in W estcm Queens­land who find great difficulty in begging their way from day to day and from door to door. If a man in the city is out of work long enough and has no friends, he eventu­ally finds himeelf in the Domain. I am not concerned with the Minister's theories; I am concerned with the facts as I see them; and we as l2gislators should pay regard to t:_,_em.

Th Hm-T SECRETARY: He mu6t solicit under false pretcnccB- before \\7 C c,-l.n charge him.

l\11·. POLLOCK: THat is what the ::.'din­ister says he will do; but that may not be wLat individual policemen will do.

The Hmm SEC.<L1ARY: Mv remark is b~sed upon the me ,nine; of the Bill.

]\fr. POLLOCK: \Vhen a m;cn is down and out, he ultimately finds himself in the Domain-sleeping anywhere he can lay his head. Not only does he not know where his next meal is coming from', but, in con~ formity with this law, he cannot satisfac­torily explain to any court in many cases where his last meal came from. Any man who has battled round the country out of work for any length of time knows that he cannot satisfactorily explain to the court whore he got his last meal. He may have killed a sheep; he may have stolen' food; he may have begged it; or he may have got it in a hundred different ways. He got it; he had to get it. 'I'o explain to the court the means hy which he got that meal makes him under this Act a vagrant, whether the Minister likes it or not. That is what we want to avoid, if we can possibly manage it.

That brings me to the question of just how far the word of a down-and-out man is likely to be taken in preference to that of a policeman, if the policeman wants to be nasty. In this case I am not putting myself on the side of the criminal; but a man who, through no fault of his O'm, has Leen months out of work cannot be classed as a criminal. Anv man who is without the means of obtain­ing a meal must get a meal by the br-t m-,ms possible. It would ill become any of us to class such a man 's a criminaL

The HO~iE SECRETARY: If he stole your fowls, would you defend his action?

Mr. POLLOCK : I admit it .,-ould be very dif!icult to defend such an act; bllt I ques­tion if any man with any decency would object to a fowl being taken if the man who took it vas starving. The point is that these rnen arc willing to work. 'Vc have not pro~ vidcd wcrk for then. They cannot g<. t work. The alternative. apparently, is to create them vagrants and give them six n1onths in gaol.

The Ho~IE SECRETARY: This Bill has noth­ing whotever to do with the uaemploycd ot· with gaoling m' n. It has to do >vith crin1ina1s.

Mr. POLLOCK: I have heard th- :'\Iinis. ter sc•y that dbzcns of times, but I will prove that thcn·o is a provision in this Bill which doe" not doa.l '' ith criminah at all. The people I speak about n1ust becorne crirninals if they arc not getting enough food. I£ a man is to be made a criminal because he gets food by tho best means at his disposal in order to keep body and soul together, then I do not stand for that policy.

This Bill attempts to deal with the age-old question of "jumping the rattler." Under

1931-4 V

iu proYi,ions the court will be able to fine a nw n guil; y of the offence £20 in addition to his farE•, or order a term of irnprison­Inent. It also adopts a very quc~tionable ~~t",_itudo bf rnaking all railway employees ,, pecia 1 policcrncn for this purpose-a thing \vhich i·· a .-cry dubious policy on the part uf any Government. 'Will this legislation be l'esp'Jn.sible for preventing rr1cn from stealing '' ride on th' train? I would not argtre fo1· a rnot11cnt that V>'C ought to say that rneH

\Yho jump a train ouq;ht to get off scot free. If that were '·J, very few people would pay rheir fare·, as they would expect to travel for nothing. But who are the majority of these men Y:ho "jump the nttler "? They nro n 'lt in the cities; they are in the country distrit ts. They arc no:. married n1cn; they are mostly single men tra1npir:g from city to city. from t·lWn to town, and from police station to police station in search of work.

The Hm!E SECRETARY: That' class of man has bee,! prosecuted for the last twenty years.

1\Il'. POLLOCK : The Minister is not going to draw me off the track.

The HO:I!E SECRETARY : That is a fact.

:'\fr. POLLOCK: Let me instance again the cc se of the single man in \V c.,, tern Queens­land who leaves Longreach '•'-'ith 5s. worth of rations to journey to \Vinton, 130 miles away. He cannot get any more rations until h .. , arrives at \Vinton.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : That does not mean that he starves on the way; you know he gets rations.

Mr. POLLOCK: I know quite a number of selectors near that road who have been forced to discontinue giving them rations. In any case, the majority of the selections are not on the road at all, and a person would have to be acquainted with the roads in order to know where these selections were. However, that is beside the point. The legal right of this man to rations ends at bne town and begins at another. He gets 5s. worth of rations to take him 130 miles. That distance is ordinarily a six clays' jour­ney. Can you expect a man to walk 13() miles on two or three days' food when he knows the journey will take him six days? We have to face these things as men who re-tlisc the implications. Is it not a fact that, in order to save that walk over dry inhospitable country, in order to avoid perishing on the track, men will jump the trains, knowing that the worst they can get nt the other end is the lockup and a decent feed? Does the Minister think that this clause to gaol men for " jumping the rattler" is going to prevent men from doing it in tl )se places? It obviously will not, because the men .have no alternative. If a man is facing three days' starvation on a dry track and a week in gaol if he jumps the 1l.tln, tben if he has an~- brains at all he will jump the train. ·we must realise, therefore, in handling this problem. that men are not jumping the trains deliberately to flout the law or to set authOl'itv at defi­ance. That i,, the last thought in their minds.

The HmrE SECRETARY: Supposing you were­living at Longreach and had :::oods sent there by train, and on tlw journey those goods were pillaged, what would you do?

Mr. POLLOCK: In the first place, the hon. gentleman assumes that every man

Mr. Pollock.]

1442 Vagrants, Gam:'ng, and [ASSE:\IBLY.] Other 0 !fences Bill.

who jumps the train is a potential or actual pillager of goods.

The HmrE SECRET\llY: The Commissioner for lLJ.iJI;yays ha3 good eYicledcc thnt n lot o£ thern are.

Mr. POLLOCK: I do not believe that "<Yery man who jumps the train pillages j;Oods, so that, if a question is asked me which is based on false premises, then the value of the que ;tion is destroyed. ~-"ll occasional 1nan ·,vho is starving ~:ill pillage goods, but I \vant to get to the point that I set out to make-namely, that these men are rrot f' 1deavouring to set the law at defiance. They are not criminals or potential cri1ninals, but are men vv,ho are lllGr8ly try­ing to live. An Act of Parliament will not prevent men from jumping u train and getting a few days in the locku;J when they know that tho.o fe·; days will g·et them a decent meal. My point is that this state of affairs can be remedied without such a clause as this. 'l'he best remodv for it is not to compel single men to walfc in search of work when there is no work to be got on most of the tracks they may go on. It would be bctLr not to force these men to travel on 5s. worth of rations when travelling means starving before the end of the journey.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOt:R AKD [;.;Debr:RY: It was your own policy.

Mr. POLLOCK: What does it matter whose policy it was or is? We are con· corned with remedying this matter. Surely the Minister is not endeavouring to shirk his responsibility b;' saying that it was the policy of other Governments! What does that matter? The thing has grown to such an extent that, if you continue to compel these men to travel on that amount of rations in places w·here you know there is little or no likelihood of them getting work, then you are almost forcing them to take this method of jumping the train even though it will put them in gaoL I put it to the Secretary for Railways, if he had 5s. worth of food to take him from vVinton to I-Iughendeu, and there was a train going there, would he prefer to jump the train and take a week or a month's gaol at the end of the journey in the shelter of the police gaol, or would he take the track on foot with three davs' rations for a seven davs' journe?? The Secretary for Raihni:ys would be one of the very first to " jump the ra tt!Gl·." If you cannot give a man work, why should he be made to walk for rations? Vvhat purpose is being served by making him walk?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : 'Why didn't you alter it when you were in power?

Ivlr. POLLOCK: 1'\ot n1::1ny men ~,-erc­\valking lo:_)king for "\'.-ork in" tho:--c tilllC-3

con1n reel to th<~ nun1ber to-dav and thev a]w~v> had the chance of gettil1g a job ~·t award rates when the Labour Government were in office. (Government dissent.) The conditions of work were not as lean then .as they are to.day. The reduced prices have been responsible for some of the depression ; but the fact remains that they had a chance of getting work two years ago, irrespective of what Government was in power. Why does the hon. gentleman want to bring party s,hibboleths into this thing? It has nothing to do with it.

The : You \Vcre very slow in

[Mr. Pollock.

.1 1r. POLT.OCK: An:c politiol trickery l know I learned from the Treasurer, who is a pastmaster at it. There must be one of two things done by the Government if this indis· crin1inate train-jumping is to cease. Gaoling them and m.tking criminals of them will not stop it. It can be stopped either by providing food at stations along the road where the tracks are dry and inhospitable, or you can preYent them from having to walk in order ro C'Ct fJo\..t "\Y~JDt narticn1ar va]u; is ther..._~ jn '-'forcing· - frorn OllP tovnt to nnc l~l'-r H••

cnt it led the across 20G Oi_'

to tL;" Tlw,·c the Bill th- t

<1 re '" cl• al be ont of a ctualh- dirl \Yi:h the r method. T'oc c

tho I\1inister Still it is rliffir:ult to deal

nnlc_ ·s one adopt-s th,J t in th·"\ Bill a provision

\Vho i"-:.- tho orcupier or frequented bv m·o' tituL

to Le a var;r.a11't, j_ [!LJ shall to a pf'na lty of £E0 or in1priscn­six: n1onths. Ouito a nun1ber of

p-O}Jle the city h1ve ·lived for vears in I Jdf!ing-housc.s nnd Huts where pr.o; litutcs' nrdnunil,v li, :=-. They ar~ not to be cxpccLd

the lrado or calling of other in the- plD.c ~. For inst'lnt stn> , IYh',:;h is one c£ th~

-l qu<H1Cr.:> in Dl'i.-;ballc, th..::re a1) ma11v· ,., nuful'"UIHLb~ \\'OlTICJ1 li-ving ln fiat~. arc not plyiug- their calling there.:

tlw occupicr.o; or othe1· 'o11- re,,jding 111 the flr:Js-ale' ~m eh residing in :~ 'l)~tratr: fL~ts--n1a\· La Ye · eeu thcs_: p r ems; th<•v" blo to be call< cl \·agrant;:: <-:ausC hrrppen to rcsic1 J

in the i'amo building. That is tlw wordin;; of lhc Bill.

The I-IO:\IE SEer. ~L\RY: Read it.

lVIr. POLLOCK: I have read it. The que~nion j:;: r<ljsecl as to whether my inter­pretation is correct, and I thiuk it is, so I am responsible for me· fellow lodgers' nwrltls: in fact, under this Bill, I am my fellow lodgers' keeper. I think that is a h urd ; and I hope the Minister will agree to delete th "t proyision from the Bill. I do not know v. hat construction the ~1inister or the polic2 may put on it; but it states that-

" Any person who is the occupier or nw,ides in a house frequented by prosti· tutes, shall be deemed to be a vagrant, and shall be liable to a penalty of fifty pounds or to imprisonm·ent for six 1nonths.''

That is dear enough. What the Minister me ens to do may be another matter; but the question of what he means by it and the mterprctation which will be placed upon it by policemen '" qu,lte another matter. \Yhen we come to the Committee sta.ge, I hone the Minister will see his wav clear lo accept an amendment which will at k.cst make the meaning that we want put on the cl a use as clear as possible.

There n ro mnn~v other proYis-ions which could b-, dealt 1.-ith and which will be dealt with b-:. other hon. rr1e-mb0rs. In my opinion. the objects of the Bill are good; but whether those ob.iects \ ill be attained in administrrrtion-whethcr the Act will be

Vagrants, Gaming, and [20 00TOBER,] Other Oj}'ences Bill. 1443

administered by all polic·emen in the spirit in ,~·hich Y\ e desire it to b ~ admiuistcred, is quite another matter. I _cm afraid that rnany of the provisions of the Bill will not be ndmini..,tcrcd ·c s irnpartia1ly or sym­paihct;· --Llly in son1e cr1:~cs as iht•y ought to be.

:\Ir. DU:"i"LOP 'ham2 ton) [7.27]: I 1nusL coreTatnlatf~ Ho1nc Secretary on the lntroUucLion of snf ~l an in1portant mea­sure, although I think there are a few clauses ·which ,,·ill rcouire moderate an1ond­n1ent in Cornrnittoc . .._

I hwo listened to f e remarks of previous spc.d;;:ers on the djffcrcnt subjects covered by the Bill. I ha,-e not ri6on to make any .rolitical propa~anda out of the Bill; but 1t appc:crs to me that the last speaker devoted the ~Jest part of his pcech to IJOlitical propa­gcm• ~-

Before I corne io tlw important points in the Bill, in regard (o which I hav,, verv decided Yie'"~), I IYish to place Iny opinion"s on record iu a, tactful aud becoming manner as I bcliov0 in being fair. Although no on~ hns cnhc!ccd the present Government more than I have done, llnve never given thought to. rru1~ing politi,,al p;;~paganda out of any­thmg ~ have sard. .dw hon. member for Gregory knows that during the fourteen years !he Labour Government were in power they lS''ued free passes 1vhen there IYas no neces­sity to issne them, a.nd I will give credit to the present Socretac· for Labour and Induetr.;· for having stopped that· practice. I have ahvays r''ceived every consideration from the See1 't.n-y for Labour and Industry; and, if I could prove to him that any person had a reasonable prospect of obtainin"' em­ployucnt, lw has always issued a p,:,'ss to such person to help him to obtain work, I go so far as to S,'1y that one or two cases have Lcen brOUi(ht uader my uotice where passes were issued by the Labour Govern­ment to enable men to get to New South Wales.

Mr. STOPFORD : I sent plenty of them over the border for cancer treatment.

Mr. DUNLOP: The ::Ylinister says that the clause, to which the hon. member for Gregory refers arc msorted to deal with criminals, and I do not think this or any other Govern'­ment would a,rrest men who were travelling from point to point for work. I could instance two cases which I have brought nnder the notice of the police in Rock­hampton. In one of them a, man was described as an " urger " on the racecourse and was afraid that he was going to b~ arrected. I took him to the head office in fl:ockhaml?ton and Inspector O'Hara gave hrm a farr deal. Although I may criticise a man, I am prepared to give credit where credit is due, and I think any police officer worth his salt would do the same.

Too much has been made of the effect of the Bill with regard to the unemployed, The hon. member for Gregory said that possibly there were 40,000 of them, but I do not believe this Government-for whom I hold no brief, beca,use of their broken promises­would use such a measure against the unem­ployed. I have differed from the Home Secretary strongly; but, although I have not got everything I wanted from him, I believe that he is following in the footsteps of his pre­decessor as a very humane administrator. He would not like to see anyone in my electorate,

his own electorate, or in that of the hon. 1nen1bcr for Gregory or elso"\Yhere, arrested undel· the conditions tho hon. member for Gregm·y hocs described-nor do I think the prc3ent ConHnissioner~who is a very strong man. and \Yith whom I have also differed­would lend hims •If to anything of th8 sort, He holds himself pretty well aloof from every­thing but his daties, and he demands effi· ciency. If a rnan ~s not efficient, he is sent to some othcr job. I am perfectly satisfied that, if he found any of his men exceeding just limits in administering the Act, he would be strong eroongh to put them in their place.

:\Ir. O'KEEFE: ·what about Inspector O'Hara?

Mr. DU'\'LOP: In.opector O'Hara is all right. I stand or fall hy what I have said of him; but I am Lir enough not to wish to drag in now differ-cnc< . I have had with hirn on other n1atters.

Mr. O'KEEFE: ·would you entrust him with the administration of this measure 1

Mr. DUNLOP: Certainly I would. I \Vould trust him to do the fair thing; and I go so far as to say thet he is a very smart officer, notwithstanding the fact that I have had differences with him.

l\1r. O'KEEFE: You want to "square off" with him.

Mr. DUC\LOP: I do not ant to "sguar.e oft' '' ith an::;-orw, ,.., hatc\-cr his pos'itioi-.1. n1ay be. I that the hon. n1ernber for~ Uregor,v rcasorut ble in h·Is contention regarding ·· jumpiLg thu rattler" to some C'XtCllt. lt IYaS SUt:;'~l')ted b:,T SOillO hon. lllCill­bers opposite thaD tlw unornployed worker;;; i '1ou Id be permitted to travel free on the train.::. if repr~sentations ·were made on their behe.lf by o. bona fide society interested in th- se _matLrs. Unemployed v,orkers \lill c-ontinue to ''jump the rattler," d :spite all penalti~_s, I arn sure that there are a nun1-ber o£ respeciablr• persons to-day who ha,-e "jumped the rattler," and against v-vho1n !he police cannot rind an:·thing previously wrong. Penalti("S arc in1pose.J for a breacl1 of the la'.i; and l take it that the penal­ties provided in this Bill are to be imposed upor, tho3o \vho unlawfully ride in trains whilst other peopl.J are compelled to pay their fares. \Ye as politicians tra1·cl at the expense of the State, taking up space in the train·"· and I reg~rd myself as a " dead­head " whilst so travelling. I feel that the maximum penalty oi £20 is too severe in view of the number who have been cha1·ged with thjs offence, and in y iew of the fines irn­posed. The Secretary for Railways knows that the impos'ition of lines in the past has not :1eted as a deterrent in the matter. I remember on one occflsion seeing half a dozen unfortunate people with their ssvags sitting in an open truck on the train Oil"'

which I was traYclling. The ticket inspec­tor saw them, and out they went. They left smilingly, and sat about 40 yards from the line. intending, perhaps, to join the next train. The law prohibiting unlawful riding in trains was in operation during the regin1o of tho Labour Government; but I have ,-et to learn that the hon. member for Greg~ry or anyone else has defended the action of vcoplo in breaking thi,.,· la \V. The hon. rner,o)Jer for Grer,ory merely indulged in political propaganda, and I am not going

Mr. D1mlop.]

1444 Vagrants, Gan.ing, and [ASSEMBLY.] Other Offences Bcill.

to s~and for that. lthon:ch the fine of £20 jp, bJo severe.

Tbc liO~\IE SECRLL\HY: That L the n1axi-lTIUn1.

1\Tr. FoLEY: \Yl1erc do :yon ~tand on the 111. tkr?

Mr. DC"<LOP: The hon. member will ha Ye an opvortunity of speaking cat a later st:tce. I undPr,_,tand that I an1 to bP shown no rneny L.v i he other idc, so l arn quite pn·]wred to defend mys'elf.

Mr. PoLLOCK: The Indcvendent Party.

Illr. DU)JLOP: An Independent memb··r is freo to vote according to his conscience. 1\1ark rn-- word,,, l\Ir. Spcak,-r, there ·will be n1oro inde:)endcnt views expressed at the next p]cct.ionL than the hon. n1ernber for Gregor.v anticipaL_-~.

I propose to deal with the importa"~ m'atter of prostitution, ·· hich the Home Sec­ret>try hrs tackkd in this Bill. The Deputy L0adm· of the Oppo .. ition-" man with Iocai authority experience-referred to the trouble experienced in dealing with Chinatown in Townsville and elscwhr•re. I do not know whether the hon. member for Toowoomb>t is pn·sent, but I understand that the Too woo:,J.ba City Council had sufficient courat;e to tackle this important and delicate ques­tion, and handled it with such effective results ns practic~lly to wipe out prostitu· tion in Toowoomba.

When I was mayor of Rockhampton, I had a considerable amount of correspondence with the Home Secretary on the question of dealing with brothels. No doubt, he has had a shot or two at me at times, and has con­tended that the necessary powers enabling local authorities to deal with them are con­tained in the Local Authorities Act; but the local authorities have found themselves unable to deal with this question. The police ha'<e recognised that a local authority cannot tak" proceedings unless it has witnesses to prove a case. Let me take the situation at Rockhampton about which I have written and spoken most strongly, as well as asked questions on the floor of this House. A rotten state of affairs exists in this connection in Rockhampton; and, whilst I represent that centre, I will hke every opportunity of advo­cating the instih.1tion of methods to wipe out this evil. not only in Rockhampton but else· where. The state of affairs that exists at two places in Rockh lmpton-a place at the Black Bridge, near Depot Hill, and another place on the Port Curtis road-is an absolute scandal. Sly-grog selling goes on there. I have proved that a young man went inLo one of these housPS a ne! learned how to make skeleton keys. I brought under the notice of the Home Secretary the bludgers who lived there, and mentioned the names. The pro· prietreeses of these houses charge the five or six girl inn1atcs of each place a rent of £5 5s. 11 week each; so that the keep us uf these undesirable houses make a pretty good thing out of it". I also believe that they chan;oe so much per bottle for grog which is sold there, and no person is welcorne unlco:;s he can drink well. The bludger is the liquor runner, as a ntle, for these unfortunate g;rh. Fines nf £200 have been ir<lposed on two ooc,, ,ions for sly-grog selling; but this hns not deterred the sly-grog 'ellcrs in thew places from continuing the practice. Quih a number of clauses in this Bill deal with pro<titution and undesirable housrs, but l desire to obtain from the Home Secretary

[lVlr. Dunlop.

information as to whether it is intended to foist the responsibility of administering those clauses upon the local authorities, or whether the police will be empowered to take the necessary action.

The H01!E SECRETARY: There is power for any two reopertctl,lo residents to p£tition the Commissioner of Police.

Mr. DU::\'LOP: Will the police bave power to deal ,,-ith a brothel such as exists in Alb"'rt street between two importe.nt business places? \V ill such a place be allowed to exist in one of our mrst important streets, along v. hi eh young people must pass to get to the Botanic Gardens?

'Ehe HO}!E SECRETARY: The object of the Bill is to deal with such houses.

Mr. DU0JLOP: That is not' specifically etated in the Bill. Clauce 10 states-

" LTpon represent,_ tjon mado by anT,' two respectable rcsidc•nts that any PrE'n1ises near to the rE osidenccs of such persom is a brothel--''

Those are business pl>tces. How are these disorderlv houses to be removed?

The HoME SECRETARY: The owners may be prosecuted for keeping them.

Mr. DUNLOP : Is it the intention of the Home Secretarv to leave the matter to the local authorities?

The HoME SECRETARY: No; the police will have a lot to do with the matter.

Mr. DUNLOP : I do not intend to minc9 matters, and I put it plainly to the Hom9 Secretary: Is it not a fact that the majority of the police officials, including the Com­missioner of Police, believe in the existence· of thcce houses of ill-fame? If that is so, they are not going to see them removed, even under this measure. My view is that the Government are only playing with this subject of prostitution by adopting a " Yes­No" attitude on it. If it is a fact that police officials believe in the existence of these places, how can they be expected to take action to remove them?

Mr. O'KEEFE: Vv'ho told you that?

Mr. DUNLOP: I know their views from conversations I have had with different police officers. Recently I pointf'd out the disgrace· ful state of affairs existing in one of these places, where a woman with a child was. doing waehing for one of these houses, and intermingling with the inmates of it. I cannot understand why the Pohce Depart­ment cloes not give attention to thes9 importar:t matters, becauce so far I have not received any answer to my query.

' I hold strong views on the nec,'ssity for the abolition of prostitution. and I giYe other hon. members credit for having diametrically opposite views, those being that, if it were not for the existence of these undesirable places, " r~spectable girl would not escape molestation. Certainly the examination of the girls in these hous£,o:-an ex.tmination which costs the conntry £1,500 a year-dis· doses the fact that the percentage suffering fr0m venereal disease is infinitesimal. Even if tho Homo Secretan· was desirous of deal· ing drastically \Yith these places, I understand thut he is likelv to cla!'.h with Commonwealth Ia,,· on the subiect, which deals amongst other things with shjps arriving at the various ports. Pe1:haps the Home Se~retary may be able to give me some infor:nation on that point. At any rate, there 1s a school of

ragrants, Gam'11g, ancl [20 OCTOBER.] Othu· Offmc·es Bill. 1445

thought which holds the view that, if it were not for these places, a respectable girl could not go about the streets without being molested.

I am sorry to say from my own knowledge that not only single men but married men visit tlwse places. Fhich is a regrettable state of affair'. \Ye have daughters and sisters of our own ; and, if anything unbe­coming took place in connection with them, what would W<' do 'I If we had a revolver, we would shoot those who molested them there and then. As was pointed out by the hon. mcmlwr for \Y a.rrego, there are 40 000 licensed girls i11 Japan. Coloured races J;ro­bably '!re different from the white races. 'While I aru here. I am going to do mv best to uplift girls of this type. While I was mayor of Rockhampton these girls were received bv me the same as I received anyone else'; and I am pleased to sav that I assisted at least one to giYo up an lrnmoral life and lead an honest life. All these girls are daughters and "!istPrs of so1ne one. l\fen V.'ant their own daughters and sisters pro­tected; but, so long as they are protected they say t.he:Je other girls can go to Hong Kong. I commend the Sah-ation Army for trying to uplift these unfortunate girls; and the Gm·ernment should be strong enough to irnposf' a penalty on any single or 1narried man who visits these places. The penaltv should be ,mfticient to put the wind up then{, and then they will not want to go to such places. It will be very interesting to know how far the police or the Home Secretary will go in tr:-,ing to put down this tradE'. It is rampant throughout the world; 'lnd, ac{'orcling to a book lent to me bv the hon. member for Btn1dab0rg, the J)vosition is astounding. bL'caw'e there has not been one Government "'hich has had the backbone to tackle the question. If the penalt: clauses are carried out. cverv house of ill-fame in Que.-nsland \vill ulti;,1atcly bo eliminated. IT the police, do their job, there will be no possibilitY of any of these houses existing for another h:Plve lnonths. But the provi­,.ions "'ill not b0 carried out. The onus will be thrown on tho local authority; and the local authoritv '\\'ill do verv little because BOillE' of the cm cm berr have verv decided opinions. ,\ poll has to be taken 'under the Liquor Act on local option questions, and !hi~ quc.,tion should be put to a referendum. I' i, jnsi~ as important w the question of more license~; and I am satisfied tl1at a majority of the fair ; ·x of this State would not toleratr; allowing· their sictcrs to live this rotten life. While I am in pnblic life. I shall always do my best to prevent this trade. I am up against it but apparently the Government are in favour of it. \'iih:;, not segregate the· e unfortunate women. where the;c can have proper medical atttndancc and nurses, as is the cas(' in other parts of the world'? 'When I a' ked f)uestions about the matter, the answer was that they are not registered, but are subiect to exami­nation at a cost of £1,500 a' year to the country. Any Government, worthv of the name of a Government should be hoiJCst about the matter. The action of the Government is tant~mount to c·aying that they cannot put tho ev1l down. The othe1· alternative. then. is to treat it as a necessarv evil. if the :najorit~- of the p0opl0 (lYl' 'ln fayour pf 1t. although per::.onally I a1n again ,t it. Then do th0 next best thing. bec~ucc the :tnajority rnle~. and Sf'~..;rf\· at0 thPse pcoplP,

ancl Id the calling be carried out in a proper n1anner under the law of the land.

There are n1any othPr in1portant clalFC'S in the Bill, c,n onP or hvo of which I shall com­ment vcr,v briefly. I have stated previously in thi.o House-and apparently the Home Se~·retary and the Police Departn1ont agree with me, and the nev,'spaperB have also tak,,n the matter up-that we have a c,1.pable body of poli<'emPn of whom we are a]] proud, aithough there are black sheep in every floc!<. I am one of those who can haYc a d1f1'er:_•ncr- \vith a n1an and be good friends with him to-morrow. I cannot understand why, seeing v e ha.ve RUch a capable police force. we have' to employ agents or inform­er~.. \rhy cannot thP ordinary policem·an act in thc,e matters and do what is now done by agents or informers? If there is a case brought before the court as the rc,ult of the investig:ation of an ag,ent or informer and the person concerned is found guilty and fined £10, £5 is handed over to the infornlC'r. \Ye haYe had some of the worst t,vpc of men p0ssible a·,ting in the position of agents or informers. I hope that the Home Secretary will have the courage to abolish !he employment of agents and informers. and thus relieve the consolida.ted revenue from the charges incurred in that dircr:tion. I arn pleased that one or two police m'ngistrates have refused point blank to o;i ve any consideration to these agents or in!onners. and the Home Secretarv <Should commend them for that. ,

The Deputy Leader of the Opposition alluded to the abortion which is going on; a.ncl it is geatifying to know that the Bill deals with that evil. It has been rampant for some timL, and a regrettabl8 state of affairs existed in this regard quite recently. It is a f!OOd thing that the Bill will put down that sort of thing", and that girls will not be in clanger of losing their lives by resorting" to these women who earn their liYoli!tood lly thee• dc·picable means.

Xo doubt hon. member, on the Government side cepecially will be pleased +.o find in the Bill the proYision regarding (,Jsturbanccs at public meetings; but I am afraid that at the next election the chairmen of political meetings and the police also will have a heavy job on their hands.

A clause on which I would like the Home Secreta.ry to enlarge, either when he replies or in Committee, is that which deals with the introduction of liquor to public insti­tutions. That reminds me that a most serious staio of aiiairs exists in connection with wine shops. I give all credit to the capable ,-.;,-omen who 'Yero appointed as police, who the Home Secretary told me were attending to the matter: but I believe that, if we arc to h>tve a liquor trade, then the licensed victcmllers sho t!d rondnct it. \Vine shops haYo been the downfall of many a young girl and woman, and I "'otdcl like to know from the Home Secretary why he does not tackle the question courageously. \Vine shops have

more girls into trouble than anything ~-\~ain, \Yhy de>c-' 110t. tho IImne Secre­

tary endeavour to put down the cocktail and claret cup drinking- that goes on at dances and card parties. It is degrading to our young \Yon1cn, and I hope the ·Governn1cnt will haYe the coul'ag0 to deal with it.

There aro n1any other interesting clauses in the Bill. I ag11in congratulate the Minis­ter on introducing it. but I shall wait with

Jir. Dunlop.]

1446 Vagrants, Gaming, and [ASSEMBLY.] Other Offences Bill.

interest to see w,hether he is going to adminis­ter the provisions which deal with prostitu­tion, or whether he is going to foist the responsibility upon the local authority. The Bill is largBly a Committee Bill, and in Committee no doubt amendments will be moved. Some of the clauses are rather drastic; and I hope the Minister will see his way to amend them. In conclusion, I say definitely that, so long as I am in public life, I will not tolerate the existence of brothels, which is against the interests of the women of Queensland.

BRASSINGTON (Balonne) [8.5]: The is indebted to the hon. member for

Gregory for disclosing that after two years the hon. member for Rockhampton is, accord­ing to his a<lmissions to-night, a good Tory and sits the right sic!e of the House. The ban. for Rockhampton had quite a lot to say the suppression of prostitu-tion; but. expressing very ddimL>J views on the matter, he did not suggest any means whereby the problem could !:le tackled in a n1anner s:atjs£actory to tlw;;. gDneral corn­munity. The problem will be accomplished only by an application of sound prvgressive principles. The Bill is good and bad in parts; and no .doubt the Minister is sincere in his desire to dcal"with the crime position of the State_ One is compelled, however, to ask this very important question: Can crime be solved by the introduction of legislation? I hold the opinion t'hat, no matter what legidation a Government may introduce, the problem of crime will be solved only by a reorganisation of our economic system.

The HOME SECRETARY : The regeneration of mankind.

Mr. BRASSINGTON: I admit that the proble1n of crime is to some extent a 1noral problem. I should say that it is a moral problem t:o the extent of 5 per cent., but to the extent of 95 per cent. crime and prosti­tution arc economic problems; consequently, any definite reform can come only by way of offering SltCh economic conditions as will enable those connected with crime to reform themselves. In applying some thought to this problem, the fact sta.nds out that people do not commit crime, and women do not undertake prostitution as a profession, unless fer very good and ·definite reasons. It is idle contend that a man commits. a crime for pleasure of going to prison or of being punished for the crime. That means that come back to the point that the

force of necessity is responsible to for the bulk of the- crime world to-day.

~\Ir. KENNY: Lew mentality,

BRASSINGTON: factor; but, position is

The Prm:mER : Thero there was any

BRASSINGTON: Even in those far­economics had some bearing on the

The hon. member for Cook has to low mentality. I have no desirE>

his contention. Only to-day I one of the metropolitan newspapers

a report of a case in which a young person was punished for the crime of stealing. The father of that person pointed out that his son had no to commit the crime and that he was provided for. Consequentlv, the contention the hon. member for Cook

U!:fr, Dunlop.

is sound, evidently the person referred to a weakness, and could not resist stealing articles when the onportunity offere-d. Despite what the Government may do in this ·direction, the fact stands out that under our present economic system the manu· factUTe of criminals will continue in the same· way as the svstem manufactures millionaires. On the other hand, a study of the economic problem shows that' at all times there must be a proportion of the population unem­ployed; consequently, that proportion of the" population, being .denied the right or the opportunity to share in the distribution of wealth, must necessarily, by the force of want, resort to other means to secure the· bare necessaries of life. As a result, they are driven to practise crime; consequently, the economic position is to a great extent responsible for the crime position. That position can be recognised in Queenslan-d. It is a fact that, owing to the economic con­ditions. we have a. large number of people unemployed. The Government promised those people £2,000,000 to create 10,000 jobs. The honouring ef that promise has not been carried out.

Mr. FRY: Propaganda again.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I would ask the member to confine his remarks to the

"-ill do that, m·oc<'CCHIJc£ to say that

Government towards is to introduce this

to a great extent, brings of unc1nployed under the' with Yagrants and so forth.

The Hmm SECRETARY: That is absolutely untrue.

Mr. the Homo noarks. So of the Bill. the Minister that it will not

The Jar to

SECRETARY: That clause is simi· section in the 'Act now.

Mr. BRASSI~GTON: There is a real necessity for seme reform in so far as the treatment of criminals is concerned. Our social svstem contributes· the cause for the committal of crime. A large number of persons commit their first offence by reason of economic circumstances. After they are convicted they are usually sent to prison. There they serve their sentence, and emerge frem prison marked men. SO' much so that social

that,

'fhe that.

Mr. BRASSIXGTOX: be compelled to of the qnc3tion, prevente-d frorn road of crime. the fact that the economic

quite .agree with

will nhase

men will be along- the

considering about by

worthy of

Vagrants, Gam-ing, and

system is not is not o"

countries like where industry

[20

crin1o has becorne an enormou~ fact, it has become an appnllinrr

vVhen considering this problem, can be learned from the United States to-day.

a very good leeson we can realise still further

absolute necessity of bringing about the reorganisation of our economic system.

In dealing with the position of crime America, I crave the indulgence of House to cite the position in the city Chicago. A few years ago that city had a crime problem somewhat similar to that in this and other States. In that city there were burglars, thieve.~, confidence men, etc., but a definite problem was created with the influx of a. large number of foreigners from Italy and other countries. On arrival in Chicago and other American cities these foreigners introducod some of the systems

·used in their own countries. For instance, secret societies such as the Mafia and the Camorra were introduced. The control of those societies by powerful figures in the Chicago underworld laid down the basis on which has been built up the most remark­able system of crime existing in the world to-day. 'fhe leader of crime in Chicago dominated the position to such an extent that eventually he found it very dangerous to carry on without the protection of expert gunmen, and he imported from New York prominent members of the underworJ.d there, two of whom were the notorious Al Capone and a man named Torio. After they came to Chicago these men deliberately set about, building up a. crime )rganisation and securing control of the city. I shall have more to say of their activities later in n1y remarks.

I now desire to touch upon another im­portant phase of American crime that was introduced by a. man named Murphy, who was a member of the House of Representa­tives for the State of IUinois. This man, having been associat.ed with crim·e in that State, introduced the system which is now known as " racketeering," and obtained con­trol of industries, labour unions, etc. On introducing this system Murphy proceeded to organise those engaged in the different activities throughout the cities, organising them, so to speak, at the point of the gun, and guaranteeing them protection from com­petition on the understanding that they supplied cash. This system extended rapidly, and in the principal cities of the State of Illinois labour unions were practically dominated and controlled by this type of criminal. The illustration which I am about to give will draw attention to the necessity for guarding against a similar state of affairs heing brought to this country and the need for a dose watch being kept on ·criminals gener­ally so far as their association with trade unions is concerned. It is on record that at a meeting of an American tra·de union,

of the members, being dissatisfied with way the funds wore being used, aslwd a statement setting out. the financial

position. In reply he recei Yed a bullet from the gun of a gangster in control of

Other Offences Bill. 1447

In connection with the control of criminals Chicago by Al Capone and his associates,

in that city advanced to another and definite stage with the introduction prohibition law. It was believed

prohibition law would effectively suppress the use of liquor in the United States of America. Under cover of a pro­hibitionist law, Al Capone and his associate&

to organise a gang to engage in the of liquor ; a.nd it is on record

as a result of the drink traffic in the of Chicago, something like 60,000,000

year went into the pockets of these The position was such that

sooner or later things had to come to a. crisis, and eventually the Capone gang was challimged by a man named O'Bannion. This man organised another gang, who set out seriously to challenge the position held by the Italian gang led by Al Capone. As· a result of the competition, the system of "hi-jacking," or forcible seizure of the other gang's liquor, was introduced. This paved the way for the wholesale slaughter, and the worst period known in the history of Chicago commenced. Reprisal followed reprisal, and at the end of twelve months something like 250 men had been slaughtered. T,hese facts show that the problem of crime is economic, and so far as the United States of America are concerned, they have tried everv method to deal with crime, and every one 'has consistently failed. Carrying my argument a little further, the worst feature of crime in the city of Chicago is that a definite attempt is being made to get con­trol of the administration of the city, and as much as possible corrupt public men throughout the Stat8 of Illinois. That is a very serious challenge on the part of the criminal element to constituted law' and order. How far that challenge has suc­ceeded can be seen by the fact that more than one Attorney-Gene1•al for the State of Illinois has been slaughtered by the gangsters, and we find this remarkable state of affairs: .A noted criminal in Ghicago-a man known to be associated with the criminal element in the city-gave it out that he was giving

banquet to his friends and supporters. WC)U!d naturally have expected those

engaged in crime in that city to have ~ttended that function, but the surprising thing ·we,s that amongst those who attended there were at least one State judge, several Senators, and several representatives from th13 Stahl of Illinois showing to what extent crime has control in the State of Illinois. The power of the gangsters has reached snch alarming degree that even publio

been corrupted. A very fine of the power of these gangs is fact that during the year 1930,

250 people were placed on crime of murder, only five were

and paid the penalty, although the very clear. Those five were

negroes had no political pull, conse-they went to the electric chair. Crime

spread so much during the past two :;"ears in America that it is seriously chal­lenging the forces of law and order. The authorities in various States are attempting

lif.r. Brassington.]

1448 Vagrant~, Gaming, and [-~SSE:\IBL Y.J Other Offences Bili.

to deal with the position. and they are 1neeting force 1Yith force. Thev are n1eettn0" the u~e of machine gun with ~machine gun~ and they have also introduced the system of third degree in order to make criminals speak. I hope such a system will never be introduced into this countrv as it certainlv is no advertisement for the United States. ·

At 8.25 p.m ..

The CnumrAx o::- CO)T:\IITTEES (Mr. Robuts, Eru;t 1'oou- ·am Ua) relieYcd :;\ir. Speaker in the chair.

:Mr. BHASSINGTO::'\: Under this svstem of the third de"rce as used to make Am~rican ·cri1ninals :,pea'k, a man is not allowed to sleep. Directly he shows signs of dozing. he recPives ice cold water in his face, and so on. Ho is qnestioned for hours at a, time b.".· several detectives, until, we have it on record, in the end a, large number of men have broken clown and gone in.sane under this process of cross-cx1.n1ination.

I conclude 1ny rcmnrJc,, in C'OnnPction with this phase of the crime position in America by asking this question : In view of the fact that Americ'1 is the most highly organised country industrially, and that every method has been used for the purpose of suppressing ·~rime there. how is it that crirnc continues to flourish? It would appear that, no matter what legislation is introduced or how it is administered. the problem of crime cannot be ··olwd. vVe again reach the point that I made earlier in my adrlrf'ss-that the problem o£ crime will Jwver be so!Ycd until the econo­mic systc~m nndcr v.Thich we work is altpreri to provide that everv citizen shall be entitled to the llCCCS M'ies of Jife, and will not be forctd to C'ornn1it crin10 in order to .-:ecure a living.

Mr. KEXNY: That means that even man must be JHOvided for whether he >vo.eks or not.

:\fr. BRAF;Sii\'G'I'ON: N:>t neces,;arik. \Ve on this side ha vc asked that the econom.ic ·system should provide thal every person sha I] be a, producer. and that if people desire to work they shall be gi,·en the opportunity to work.

This n1casure contains some vital prin­ciples, in so far a,s the liberty of the people is concerned. There is no doubt that the Minister desires to cope with crimP, a,n:l i· ·doing so with an earnest desire to mef't the position ; but, when the provisions of the Bill are applied, I fear they will reari1 fa1' beyond the point intended, and will rope in thousands of innocent citizens. \Vhen this measure becomes law, it will be difficult to determine who is not a vagrant. As I said earlier, the literal interpretation of tl; :· 'lau'e relating to vagrants prac< ically ro]ws in eYcryone "'rYho has not visible n1ean'3 of f:up­port, meaning. for instcnce, the larg.; number of unemployed who are not in a pos~ti )D to sc-:-rure ration.~. principally single 111Cn, and a ·lot of people who for 'aTions 1'0asons do 110f r,~g-i:;:ter fnr \York or dain1 sust0nancc or LtJion~. T tbink li- ·will he fc1mrl tlHtt. if the prm·i:ions I refer i·.> are enforced, these people \•1ill haYf; con2>idcrable difficulty in proving Hwt they are not ,~agranh \vithin the meaning of the Act.

\Ye have a1wavs bo2stcd that British la·w plar~s thr> onus .of proving rcsponsibilitv of guilt on the Crm.-n. Under this me,'c'"''''' the re-~lJOn3ibility of proving their innocence

fllfr. Brass;'ngton.

will be placed upon the shoulders of the people charged, instead of the Crown b0ing forced to prm·e thcir guilt. That, I under stand. is a, direct negatiYe of the principles of British la \L

There are, in n1y oprnron, son1e very childish Joro.-isions in this measure-those, for instance, which have reference to people with . blackened faces and those carrying electnc torches. I haYe studied the Bill, and I feel that any person who goes out after dark and .,--a,rs slippers, for instance. runs the risk of bcins arreotecl and questioned as to his intentions.

The IlmiE SECRETARY : If vou see a man with a mask and slippers ~n, and with a rm·olver in his pocket, it is prima facie evidence that he is going to commit an indictable offence.

.l\Ir. BR),SSI:-.:UTOX: I accept the a"'m­anc<' of the Minister on that point, but I would add that the existing law covers the circmnstances mentioned by the Minister. Fnrthe1·, cr~minals about to commit burglary are not likely to parade the fact for the benefit of the police. I desire tJO•.c· to rdu to those pnrts of the Bill which eieai with gambling. I believe that sumP of Lhe- 1wnaL i("' are ~,mncwhat. harsh. B~· \V a';" of illustration. l":t rne quote the case­of the large number of n1en "·'ho ·work <Jn .-:.tations and in shearing sheds in the \Yest They >York hard from chty h da,·. "'1d t the end of the week one of the little tailing-. .;; of -;mne of thcrn }.-; to conH? into town and ha Ye a bet on a, racehorse or d drink after honr~. or in sorne cases ta.~:L' a hanJ in tlH' national gmnc of " hvo­np." If one of them happens to pick up tla~ kip and spiu the pennif'--, he is' liabL: 1~ot onl,-;,- to a hPaYy llCIHtlty, but also to br· drchtrl'd a ,-,;lgrar t. I--Iow can he be a va.u> r, nt if he ha~ be-en workino· all thP '.'reek anU at the c11d contes into t~wn for ~ ]-itti hit of p1f-1~:;urc'. Surel\· that i an anon1alv. and I hopL' thaL in Covmmittce the l\IiniE<tZ'·l' \'i·ill nutke the cLnbc ,:Jeart'r and less drastic,

_\. frank discussion of gambling is neces-sar If form of gambling is wrong-. it fo]]m, s thct all other forms are ·wrong. If it is \\Tong for the •vorking­lnan to pla._,- '· two-up " or au-..: other illegal ~ n1c. it is no lee)~ a crinll fOr the WE-·'lllhv man to h'1 ,.<' a little flutter on the stock Pxchu1g0 or the n1cr-cour,_•. There rnus·~ be smnP c0n~i..-tenc.,:. and I ( Hlnot ~ce ·wh•.; allY diH'en•ntiation "should be rnadc. · ·

:Vfr. PoLLor" : '· T·c o-up" is the fairc•t gcunc played.

;,fr. BR\SSI:-.:CTO?\: That rs an lm­portallt point: bu1- ju a11v cv0nt I have a\v.·.-"1:; hcic1 tbc vi0w tht~t- if one forrn of gan1bling i. y·ronf:. n1l ar~ ·wrong. _\gaiD. in the fir~t p1ncp the UoYPrnment providt> that pw1hling 'hrrll lw prohibiL"d. anrl in the 'econc' that people fnnnJ cheating at --rambling shall be puni~hcd. If ganllJling-or pla:·ing a trick,v i:<.' nbsolntelv pro-hihitPd. if thP ~\t t is , whv the 'ne{'c>..-:.-itv for plntid1in? people who ch0::tt _ t thf';;:£'

I concl,rle. T .,.;,h to say a few pro.'<titution and ih rriahon to

(lnrst1on of publir h0altll. Go\·t"rnment- nlnY bt' c:;inccrc 1n th0i1·

dn."il'P to dt a 1 1vith thL~ prolJlPin. l:nt rnay v:C' r?t. '"'' onr,dve< the question: \Yill the pro­Ylf'IOll5 111 th1s n1easure secure the result

Vagrants, Gaming, ar·[ [20 OCTOBER.] Other Offences Bill. 1449

which the Government intend? The Bill lays it down th:~f- a prostitute shall not Eolicic in ~:, pubLic place or carry on her cccupation in a housd. Such women, there­fore, >Yill be fm·ced to carr;.· on their pro· fession under tiw cover of darkness·. The hon. member for Rockhampton has railed about the uecesslty for suppressing this evil.

l\11·. D-c~LOP: ] a:_;_l quite sincere•.

:VIr. BRASSINGTON: The hon. member may be, but one has to face facts intelli· gently. Hon. members must rh1lise that, if these women are compelled to carry on their profession under the cover of darknr·ss. the danger to the public health will be increased. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition has pointed out that under the present system these women arc compcllnd to submit periodi· cally to examination. and by these means venereal diseases ar,, kept in check to a g1cat extent by meclic.cl practitioners. There is no guarantee that. when the Bill become; b w, venereal diseaRc will not spread in thi~ State.

The HO}!E SECRETARY: \Ye ha Ye made pro· Tision for !hat in the amendment of the Health Act,

:\fr. BRASSE\GTOX: How will it be pos­sible to discover the won1en who are carry­ing on this profession'! It will be more difficult to do so if they are compelled to .carry 0.1 ':lnder cover of darkness. Tpe prob· lem will become aggravated, and there will be greater clanger to the public health. l hold Ycry defimte views on this important problcn1, and, spe1-king for Inyself, I wr,l~ -come a system of registration of prostitutes and houses of ill·fame. That system would at lea't give the Government a greater tncasure of control and an opportunity to keep a close check upon the activities of the :people concerned. It will enable the Govern­ment to assict in the prevention of the spread ·of wnereal disease to the detriment of the people of the State. I believe that svstem to be preferable to the one now proposed, which ,,-ill force those engaged in the pro· fession to rarry on their activities under cover Df darkness. I can onlv assume that the system will defeat its om; ends, and that the Go•. ·rnment will cventuallv be forced to introduce "' sane sy,tem to cope with the problem. As Y1ith pro,titution, so with crime. When the Bill is applied to a criminal popu· lation, they will be compelled to leave the State and to get under cover. If all the States of the Commonwealth pass a similar measure, we shall still have the prob­lem of crime before us. The passJge of this n1cJ~ure n1ay result in tbe ren1oyal of a number of undcsimhles to other States; but if the other StatF, adopt a simihr measure' wcl shall still ha vc the criminal element m~ our hands, and crime ,,-ill be continued a­in the pust. Those circtunst'ances prove the contention of hon. 1n 1n bers on this side that this Bill will not sol.-e the problem, and that crin1v wil1 endun-.. ~o long as our present ec-onomic svstem continuci. \Vhen the Bill becon1e·<, la~', 1nost o::. the criminals vdll g·o into -cnolu. ::\o doubt the Government are sincere in their desire to assist tho police to carr)· out their dr,ty in coping with crime; but I believe the position will be made more difficult. because the police •··ill Jhcd it hnrdPr them at rrcscnt t'o d· tect crinw under the altered circtnn;c;,utnces creD ted bv this measure. I expl-e-'s the hope tl;at the measure wiil accomplish all the, t is desired by the Government, and I express the fu; .her

hope that where the Bill is capable of nnprovement it will be in1proyed in Coin­mittee. The Minister has intimated that he is prepared to accept any sound, sensible suggestion which may be put forward from this side of the House.

Mr. BARBER (B '-Jdabe>·g) [8.40]: The pronsions of this Bill bring before hon. IrlClnbcr~ a Ycry serious problc~n., The IIon1e Sccrotar,: and the Go- <~rnn1ent gcnerallv before introdueing a rncasure of this kin~1: might hn.Yc curied out a scheme which !hey Jhould have done in all fairno"; to our friends the police. l£ the Governmo11t expect the police to handle all the-w amendments oi the presrnt Ya.;rant Act and the Police Act, they naturally expect the a Ye rage V?lice!nan to h" a clair' oyant, a p:;ycholo­gtst, and all the rest of it, and at len,t thev should have allowed them a few month~' otndy in psychology and its allied sei·ences.

N"o ono more than my 'elf appreciate•> the fact that it. js Yery nu:ess;uy for the pro­tection of not only property but life to have our legislation rnorc watertight than it has been. I mm( candidly admit that the pro­VlSJons of th1s Btll make it im!·Ossible for the police to cMrY out what the Govern­ment expect them to do. They are practic­all:: asking r:H' po]jec to be supermen. I nnclcrstancl that at the present time in addi­tion to their LFnal duti~s, they h~ ve about nmet.v e_drancons rlnt;~s to perform. This Bill imposes an increased arnount of work on th0m, for "hi eh many of them will not thank the Go• d'mnont. I am satisfied from my knowledge of the police force that they are a very fine body of men. Some of them, of ccur ,e. an' like members of Parliament -verv hum,cn. I admit that I am. There arc t;xo hou. membc·rs of this Chamber who do not consider tlic-nl.3elvc" human. Thev arc the Trcasur.·r \lld the hoa. member for Rockhampto 1.

This Bill ha.s giYen 1110 considerable con­cern. The Bmidaberg district is essen­ti!'lly a sugar district, and, as such, is typical ot mo~t sugar districts. To these f'.ugar centres gravitat . .:; year after year a large number of men, not only from the various confines of Australia and New Zealand, but fr'lm other parts of the world. I do not know how far the• Home Secrotarv intends the vagranc;· clausE·> of the Bili to operate.

Take the Bundaberg district, where there are probabl_y 100 men who have worked in the sugar industry for years. The majority of those men are bachelors. some of them arc widowers; but the class to which I wish particularly to draw attention includes men whose age range from fifty to srxty years of age, and ir ... a number of cases men between r.ixty and sixty-five. Because they have vrown old in the army of industry, these men are no longer required in the sugar· mill; and, as they are unable to do an !'verage day's work in the canefield, they are m many cases absolutelv stranded. On one o,r two occasions I have made representa­tions to the Department of Labour and Industry that these men be provided with rations. I claim they are entitled to rations because they cannot get work, and in a considerable number of cases, through infirmity, due to rheumatism or t.o accident of some kind or another, they cannot tramp the 30 miles that they s,hould tramp to the next town-namely, Gin Gm, in order that they may be entitled to a further issue of rations. As these men are not eligible for

Jlr. B·;ri;cr.]

1450 T'agrants, Gaming, and [~~SSKIIBLY.] Other Offences Bill.

the old-age pension, their lot is a very hard one. Yet the Government expect these men to walk 30 miles! I take it that under the Bill those men, having no money, can be classed as vagrants. I f.hould like to know "-hat the term vagrant includes. From press reports which I have read for the last few years, where men have appeared in the police court to answer charges of vag­rann-. I ha.ve come to the conclusion that it is .c ·very difficult matter to get a clear-cut definition of the term from any police magis­trate or acting police magistrate. I have bun told that hitherto a man who had 3d. in his pocket could not be arrested on a charge of vagrancy.

:VIr. PoLLOCK: He can under this Bill. No matter w-hat amount of money he may hav: a man can be declared a vagrant if he cannot show to the satisfaction o£ the court how he got the money.

C\Ir. BARBER: That is what I under­stand. In most cases the so men have seen better clays; they are men who have been honest, hard working, clean living, and tem­perate 'vorkers, whose savings of mttny years haYe become exhausted in the last few vears, owing to th~ s,hortage of employment. I had a conversatiOn with one of these men at the week-end. \Vith the last £14 he had earned on relief work that man returned to Bunda­berg. He lived at the rate of 6s. 3d. per week, so that cvcr_v £1 he took back has kept him going three weeks. He asked mo how mnch I lived on. I mid that I was sup­paLed to be a pretty good cook, and knew the Yalue of food, and, without paying rent, I would think it pretty hard if I had to live on less than 15s. a week. That is the class d mo.n I am concerned with. Under the Labour Government the average young fellow could battle for a crust; but since the present Government have come into power even the single man finds it hard to earn a crust.

There aro ono or two clause;; in this Bill that J osh Billings would describe as " in­tensely amoosing." One clause refers to a man breaking gaol. I ask in all seriousness: Is there a member of this Chamber who "'vonlcl not s0ize the chance to break gaol if he were incB.rcE:ratecl in I-Iis ~Iajesty's " jug "? I would; and the man "\vho atternpts' to get out of gaol is sport enough to take what i.< coming to him if he IS

caught_ But whv mention it~ It is absurd. It is just the s~an1e ns a person suffering ffo.n1 a serious In,-dady: and "';ho has been C<nng for yhtrs. taking a dos0 of poison or something. If it does not kill him he is placed in a hospital, fed up, and restored to health, and then they bring him before the police magistrate and give him six months in gaol. It is ridiculous.

Then we come to the (]Llestion of g-ambling. It is hn rd to think that then' is a human being, pnrticularly an Australian. who does noi gamble' to some extent. It is a verv difficult L!attor to deGne. I have neYc·;. heard of the QnPensland Club or one of the sporting clubs here being raided. People go to places like tha"t to gamble. Why pull c;nr O\Vll lc3s ·: \\~e kno\Y n1cn congra~ go tc m those places, and the·- ha vo a gamG of nap or bridge or poker, 'bluff or other­wi~c---ancl are \YC soft enough to believe that they do it in a spirit of friendliness? They have their little bit on; and if the Go,-~rnment are going to tighten 'up the g•-mmg laws, let us have a fair deal all

[ }11 r. Barber.

romHL I do not go in for horse-racing. l admjt that 1 have u tick . on the :;\lelbourne and Caulfield Cups, but that satisfies rne for tht? re:.;t of the :V(~ar. There are rnany ~rraYe dang-ers \vhich ;::,ccur- frorn allowing these betti~1g shops to exist. Quite rec<mtly I "\rent to (J"lc of our larb-' in1porting firn1s. and had a chat ',Yith th.; manager, who told me that some of th'c worst feature" of theso betting shop' .'O far as' the:- affected his firm was that ~he bo:-'s who ran to tlw :oast offic.J with th,e mail would sometimes-when the mails \VC1'0 bit lnt::: -·a~k the cashll'r to give thPnl n1oncv so that th,;v cou Id put on the "!ett~rs ; and i't wa·:; ·.Jtnrtin1c< that t hP boys put the idtcrs in th- bnx an l lwld on to th0 3'., 4 .. , or 5.;;., ns th~~ ea· . .-" n1it:-ht be, and '"-e11t to 8, b...:tting shop and pnt the rHonry on the race on the foJlowin~ Saturday. If one of tliellt \Yn3 nrJ. abl0 to rake up enough money during the week, two or three of them would chum in, and make up the amount for a decent bet. To me, that is one of the "vorst evils of the betting shops.

There arc various other things jn c-annec~ tion with the gambling clauses of the Bill to which I "\Yould like to make some refer­ence, but my time is short.

At 8.57 p_nJ.,

Mr. s~E\RER resumed the chair.

Mr. BAHBER: I ant to get on to a sub­ject which is rather a strong theme of mine, an _1 one which I would like to discuss in its Yery wi dcst" aspect, but I know that I shall ha vc to confine myself prdty closely to the Bill. and rightly so. · The hon. member for Rockhampton udmitted that I had lent him "'me ,-q]uahle books on the important ques­tion of prostitution. All I have to say is that I am very sorry I lent him the books, bee a use he has made such a mess of things that really he does 1•ot seem to understand what he rc~cL I think I shall have to rope the hon. m<'mbor in to spend a few after­noons in reading up the subject. He did not make the best nse of the books I lent him.

Mr. DuNLOP: It is stupid of you to make such statements, because I did not agreP. with them.

l\Ir. BARBER : I lent the hon. member the hooks, because, after his utterances last session and tho previous sc·,,ion, I thought, h-e required some information on the matter; but he showed b_v his speech that he rccei ved no benefit at all from the reading of the books, and I am sorry I lent them to him.

I know there are very few hon. members who like to discUS· this subject. I have been through many places 1vhcre this problem exicts, a•;cl the pcsition in Brisbane is merely a flea-bite compand with other places I h:-tvc been in. \Vhc'n I see these \VOmcn, there is · hvays one thought which occurs to my mind-that is. that they arc some n1cthrr·~ girls or SOIIlf' IIL1 u's daughter". l\"o 1nan li\-ing, \Vhcthcr ho bG the I(ing in his cas'lc or tho lowest wage-earner in the land, knmn bnt what his daughter may find her· sc·H in the ~run<; eny]rontnent.

:'.lr. Dr;-;-r.op: Then you should try to uplift them_

:\Tr. BARBER: That is what I have been try'ing to do.

:\lr. DL:\"LOP: Then you are agreeing wii'h n1c nov.~.

Vagrants, Gaming, and [20 OCTOBER.) Other Offences Bill. 1451

::\Ir. BARBER: The method advocated b,· the hon. member would not do much 11\1lif :ag. He has evidently not seen as much of the world as I have. If the hon. member wiahe- to stage a full di.•-cussion on this subject. let bim look up volumes n·n1., cix.. and rY. of the debates that took pl~cc in i he Chamber and the Legisla­ti,·e Council in 1911 and 1912, wbcn the late Dr. Dads, and I ihink Dr. Jackson, gave eviur nee at the bar of the Legislative Council, and the debates included contribu­tions by the late Dr. Taylor in the Council and the then Home Secretary-the late Mr. Appel·-one of the kindest hearte-d of men, \Yho I arn sorrv to sav is no n1ore. Hon. members will And the1;·e and in the library Yolun1l3 of information on this matter as it is dealt with in various parts of the world. I have seen otlwr s sten , operating else­when': and I fear that the very same mis­take is likclv to be made here that has been made elsewhere. Pr;or to 1910. 1911, and 1912 these girls yccre confined to the side streets; and then th .v concenirated in pre­n1ises in the inun0diate vicinity of this House. Any mccn of the world who is pre­pared to be hone··t and candid about. the matter lmowc that, if they are huntNl from pillar to post, they will only be carrying on their actiYitivs in other pa.rts of the city and suburbs. In confirmation of my remarks, I '-:ant to quote the effect of pursuing that policy in New York and elsewhere, as I saw its results when I was travelling the world years ago. This is a book written by prob­abh the most eminent sexologist in America -Dr. ;__ J. Rohinson-- :ho has written prac­tically a whole librar;: of v orks on the oldest profession in the world. In a ;chapter <>ntitled, " vYhat. shall we do about it and the fnturc- ?" he quotes from a report to sho> the e!Icct of this hounding business in :\"e\· York. It. is a report by the New York headquarters of the Salvation Army­an institution \Yhich ~on1os 1nore iuto con~ tact with these pr1r do,;;n-trodden 1vomen !han any other organi~ tJion. This is a. fairly !en;-th:c report, but it is worth space for 0ducotional purposes. not onl3~ in this Ho1ise, but atw outside. The report states-

.; I\vcnt~- years ago our re.scuc homes, as they were. then called, \Vere always filled y.·ith women of mature age who had clclihcratcly degraded thems 'lves. :\lam· of them were found in establish­Ll<'llts in the so-ea lled red light districts and \\·ero induced to enter our institu­tions as th-, first step towards a new start in life. Oth0rs we used to find and plead •Yith in the back rooms of saloons, and still others were tak n out of nolice courts ~frcr the: had be •n 'lrre,tcd for soliciting on 1 hC' strr ots. Fr0m wl1-:t'~ver source v<r" found the.s-::::! 1von1en, ho\vover, they ,,-er,, ' ith onl~~ a fe\v cxc> ptions. \YOn1en

ho had dcliherat'ly and consciously f·hn'''" what has mist a kcnlv been called 'rh, 0asiest way.' V

" This is not the situation i o-day. Red ]ig·ht districts have been done awav ,-.-ith largelv, and so haYc the saloor1s ·· ith back roomc, ancl, between the police auc1 thl' actiYit1c.; of citi?-ens' co1nmittces, "·c have practically eliminated open rro,;:;titution on the ~trc0ts. In spite of thC>:::<~ n"fornl:::. the Salva6on Arrnv in this one tt"rritorY, no\v has twice the~ nurn.ber of maternity homes that it operated in tho-c 1urid days of the past, and they

nre all filled to capacity-by whom? Not by professional, deliberate, and conscious violators of the social code, although we still work among- that class, too-but by school children, many of whom have been obliged to leave their desks in either the high or elementary grades to go direct to our institutions for the ordeal of motherhood.

"I, myself, have been amazed during the survey just completed, to realise the great percentage of our inmates during the last two years who have been school girls. I have known for some time that the number was increasing, but not until the completion of this survey did I realise that it had reached the appalling figure of 42 per cent. of our entire work in these institutions.

" The average age of these girls is six­teen years. Any intelligent observer will see instantlv what this means. To have an a 1·crage 'of sixteen means that we must haYc an astounding- number of girls who ore becoming- mothers between the ages of eleven and fourteen.

" The matron of the J crsev City Home rcpodPd one CflSC. as an eXan1pie, of a thirtcen-vcar old girl who was to have been gra~luatcd from grammar school this month. Intensclv interested in her school work. ,he brought her hooks with her and asked for permission to devote her even· ings to studv in order that she would no't fall behir';d her class. She continued her studies as requested until the birth of a baby boy."

He goes on to ask this question-'' Can stronger proof be adduced in

support of our contention that the hound­ing- of prostitution has no other result except that of aggravated conditions?"

That is an alarming report-a sad and heart­breaking report-but, coming frol? the authoritv it does it is one that ments full cognisa1lce. bcc,,usr the:::;e people know what they are talking about. That has been the experienc<' of practically every part of the world. 'C nder our present system I see no possibility by just one ordinary sweep of the hand of doing what the hon. member for Rockhampton desires, because you ca_n';lot wipe out this evil by just taking the pos1bon in Queensland and dealing \Yith it.

~,rr. Dl'XLOP: You can do it gradually.

l\Ir. BARBEH: ITor tl ·~ la-..t t.,~·enty cen­turies rn:l.U',' rcforn1er~, consisting of tho best of peoplc.:_Chr-isti·ms and other.wiee-have l-wcn attempting to do so. R1ght. down through the ccnttn·irs' there has alwa s been a certain ''ctio<t of the people who have subjected prostitutes to the g ·c.c tr-t insults and contumely imaginable. In fact, there \Yere tirncs whrn thcv were subiectcd to treatment ruch ;.s the writer I have just quoted points out in his book. He says-

" Prostitution, hcnY~vcr, is grounded in the most powerful of onr elemental instincts: qnd all atten1pts at ropressron, pr -.'-'tiscd during centuries, ~ave not ~uc­CC'cdcd in nprootin7 it. Lot us J,nst spend n n1on1ent and se<; what punrsh­mcnt gcntk Christians inflicted on the prc·,titntc in rrn endeavour to make her g-jve up her profes'sion. Here are a few of them : Thcv were expo .od at the pillorv; thev we're made to wear a special dress" and ;hameful insignia; with their

Mr. Barber.]

1452 Vagrants, Gaming, and [ASSElVIBL Y.] Other Offences Bill.

hands tied behind them and dress,,d in a ridiculous costume, they were thrown from a rock into the water and ducked three time' as they came up. They had their hair burned off; they had in some places their hands or feet or ears or no~,;) cut o.ff; in son1e- places the,-· wero 'BYCn subject to capital punishment l>y hangino- ·beheading or burning at the stake. dAdd to this ~he loathing, the dis­dain, the complete social ostracism which the women encountered on all sidec., add the fear of eternal hell fire of the realiL· of wlJich thev were thorough!:.· ronYincecf alJ(l you wi'!l admit that the dis-eotn~1,i~n1ents' ~to prostitution in years p·ono bv \Yere sevcre enough and ~umerouS enough; and yet prostitution was not exterminated, but has kept on flourishing to the present day."

The problem is how to deal with this ques­tion. It is one that has challenged our see1.3 and st;ttf:::'meu in the past. To those who condemn these people I >Yonld say that Dnr ~ocial and cconotnic s'ystcnr is largel :,­rcsponeible for the majority of the girls who are to be found 011 our pul>lic strecto. It is no good hon. members gettiug up in this House and quoting paragraphs from the report of the Department of Public Health. that something should be done. I have called attention oYer and ovPr again to the fact that wcietv condemns thcs'o unfortunate \Y0!11Cn. Th~ere is al \Ya Vf the · · social gin1l et'' brigade, who pour .sCorn Ul)OJl the head~ of that unfort una to cl as, of our societv; but l<'t tho'•e pbari'·ees go down the street.''. take thcoe wa;.-v. He! sister. by the hand, and try to help them.

I knew the exceeding kindness which was shown to tho,e g·irls by the late Dr. Moore when he was Commissioner of Public Health. On various 0crasions ·when a ~Small percent­age of these girls did not turn up for inspec­tivn, he sent a note r0mincling them of the fa-ct, and even on one ot· two occasions he actually Yisited the girls himself and asked them to come up fo,. inspection. \Vhen I hear th0 so-called " goody-goo.·ly " ~Section of the cornmunit,-.7

• ('01tdelnninq· these women, I am excoerlmgly angry. Let those people titke their minds b:\ck to the time when the late ·w. T. Stco.cl waf put in gaol for the work he cnde. You reel to do in drawing public a itontion to the " white slave" traffic. At that time I was in London­" Moclcrn BabYlon "-and the column~ of the London " Times ,. can he consulted in the library to shm;- >Yhat happened many year, ago.

In eYcr city in I he. world that class of "·oman is, to he fonnd. Thcv Fhoulcl be com­pelled to live in certain loc-riitir·J, and should nol be hounded fro.Jl piliar to post, which is the n1ost 1111VYi~c action that any Govern­n1cnt. rnn takP. l c '11 'i ako rnv 1nind back to the when vY. T. Stead was facing

for his wade in the matter. llHFt a toni~hing· fact was that in Bat­

tcreca the houses of 1Jl-fame belong,ocl to one or other of the church',~s in London. ]1~ven within the 'ha den of the Houses of Parlia­ment di~.:;orderly hon~es were carried on in properties in rc.spect of which rackrents ,,, Ct'e extorted by good church people or by tlw trustees of churches. I know that vears ago in Bundabcrg I -was nearly arre-sted for dofnmation. bcrauSf' I drew attention to the fact that a gentleman with whom I dis­cussed the matter on the public platform

[ Ji r. Barber.

had let three of his nroperties which, undo~· ordinary circumstanc~s, would not yield him more than 15s, per week in rent, for £3 per ,,...f-t)k to .] apane)c pl·L·-~6tutcs. That. rnan. wn.s a. good rhurchman and a pillar of the church. It >roukl be a very graye mistake to hound thuo 11·omen from pillar to post, as it will have a Yery ill effect in other directions in the community.

Mr. I-IYNES (1'rwnsville) [9.20]; I agree o-:ith the pr~vious speakers who have expressed the opinion that an up-to-date Police Offences Bill has iong bee•1 overdue in this State. There is 110 gainsa~. ing ~he fact that the existing Act is mo,t'. ineffectn·e and unsciC'ntific in dealing \Vith crirnc and in the endeavour to prevent crime. I am one of those who think Parliament should concern itself rnore over the n1att'er of crimn preYention than the punishment of criminals. The Bill before the House mains no Yery serious oifort to prevent crime other than by deten·ino· criminals on account of the severe punislnn';,nt they will recoi.-e if they commit crime. It is worthy of note that most of the Bill is taken from ,\.cts which were passed as far back as 1851-before we had respon­sible goye,·mnent in Queenslancl-indicating that, nob,-ithstanding the r,-rcat progress that we a~ a ciYilisE:-'"1 connnunity have rnade 1n n1ost 1natter~! the preYention of crime stil~ follows the ol-d primitive method•, . that obtained near! v a century ago. That ts the worst feature of the Bill. I admit that it is an improvement on the existing lttw, but it does not go far enough. It is a comincnt~ry on the intr lligencc of this House to thmk that the Bill is taken from an Act that existed :::ornething ]iko eighty years ago.

The Hmm SECRETARY: \Vc haw takf'n the best portions of the old .'\.et.

::\lr. HY~ES: Most of it has been taker, from old Acls, and the Government have gone us far back as 1851.

The SECRE1'ARY FOR Pc::BLIC' IKSTRCC TIOX : I--Iuman nature has not changed.

:'l·lr. HYl\ES: Human nature ha' uot char1gc·d a great deal; but the methods. of de .. Jing with crime n1ust have changed dunn~ that time. Our alienists have taught u .. that our methods of cl ea ling with crime are wrc.n6·· HaYeloc\ Elljs and other sci?ntists have giL•n a considerable amot~nt of time to the s~·udv of criminals, and therr suggestiOn.; should !)",. incorporated in a _measure of tl~is nature. ·while we haYe all that sctenntic data and the result of the research work that has bLcn clone, it has been ignon d 'I'hc IIorne Serrrtarv is not altogether to blame in this rnattC'l~, as all civili::;ed cou1~~ tries h 'Vll ignored s·'ientific methods of deal­incr rith crirne and crinT1nals. That is one of th~ thing· I deprecate in connection with the Inoa::--nre~ It ~ho1Jld be more rnodern, anLl should clcal yy·ith the pc•ychology of crime; and that. is so-rnothing the Bill does not d~. I lJ lit',-c crirninaJs are caused throug·n F:CO::lOHlic conditions. C.ciJnc is cconOinic.

Tho HoJtr: S=cRETARY: Is the bootlegging in ... ~ 1ncri< J. due to econon1ic conditions.·:

::Vlr. IIYNES: There is no doubt about it.. In the last an'l]-,-,is. n1o,t of the ::rin1in..1ls are cri1ninals thrOugh 0conornir circurn stan,_:e You ·yerv rarclv see the daughter," of ViTrrlihy cibzc1~-. in :your "Reel lighr ., di:::tricts. ·You rarelv the sons of \\-etJ.lthy people, unlu;;; therC a herr·dHary taint;, aC'cUS\.'d of cr1nl.~s again~t the pr~r:.c,:1 o-r Gt

Vaqrants, Etc., Offences Bill. [21 OCTOBER.] Qmstions. 1453

theft. because the incentiYc to commit these crinJ('S dof;;.: not exis-._ in those cases.

The PRE'.:.IER : The feelings are the same.

J\lr. HYKES: The feelings are not the same, and I am surprised at the Premier making such a st.ltement. He evidently has not giYen much thought to this most important matter. I say that environment and economic conditions have a tremendouc influence on crime and on criminals. All the ureat authorities in the world agree that tlut b is so. It is only necessary for the Premier to go into tho library and read the cxc client works there by men who have made <l lifelong studv of this most important pro, blem. I Yen hire to say that crime against property and ag·ainst persons is more preva­lent than it was in the golden ago-the fourteen Years in which Labour held office in this State.

::\Ir. YlAXWELL: 'fhat is not so.

Mr. HYNES: My troglodyte friend from Toowong states that there are fewer cases in court.

Mr. 11AXWELL: I did not say that.

Mr. HYKES: In my opinion, drunken, m:ss is not a crime. I am not classing that as a crime at all. At onH time there were more cases of drunkenness before the magis, t!·ates, bnt to-day the people have no money to spend in "booze." Th3 little money they have has to go to sustain life. There is no money for " bung'' to-day, and that is the reason why th~re is a dearth of " drunks" before the metropolitan courts every morning.

In connection with prostitution, I am satis, fied that more young girls have been forced into the " red-light " districts in the last few years than was the case before.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: No.

Mr. HYKES: I say it must be so, when no provision is made to feed, clothe, or care for the unfortunate girls who are out of work. Thcra is the incentive there for these girls to drift towards the " red,Jig.ht " dis, tricts, and to sell their bodies in the oldest profes,ion known to civilisation. Those things are going on uncle!' our eyes every day. Every man in this Chamber has had knowledge of some family with an unfortu, nate sister or daughter who has been forced through economic circumstanres into the "red-light" districts of the city.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Nonsense!

J\Ir. HYNES: This is the phce whore W<' Bhould be co.ndicl about these important !natters.

Heredity, of course, plays an important part in uimin,dity; but no effort has been made even by those v ho know something about it to tackle this ph>tse of crime. The imbecile, the congenital criminal, are allowed to rep rod m 2 their kind.

The Ho>rr SECHETARY : '\Vould you vote for sterilisation?

Mr. HYNES : Undoubtedly on congenital criminals and imbeciles. For that class something should be done in the interests of the future of the r ce. Unfortunately, this is a subject to which no scientific atten­tion has been given by most Governments, or at any rate hy very few Governments.

Some exception has boon taken to the police having" greater powers than hitherto in dealing with crime. I do not think it is a good thing to giYe ever, policeman

unlimited powers, but my experience teaches me that the members of the police force are above the avorag"o in intelligence. A man 11ho gets into the force has to be over the average in both physique and intelligence; and that fact puts him in the position of pcing able to admini ter the Act conscien­tiously and effectively; but there arc pro­visions v:.,;hore too rn·ueh power may be given lo tho Government.

'l'he Pr.E~II~R: I can see that you are taking out an insurance policy.

],fr. HY:;;ES: I do not. require an insur, ance policy, such as the Premier and his party will ne:"d at the next election.

The Houce adjourned a,t 9 . .30 p.m.