Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 4 AUGUST 1909

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Barron Falls Bill. [4 AUGUST.] Questions. 551

WEDNESDAY, 4 ACGFST, 1909.

The SPKiKER (Hon .• J. T. Bell, Dni!Jy) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

PAPERS.

The following paper was laid on the table :­Report by Mr. J. G. :YiacDonald on the lazaret at Peel Island.

The le llowing paper, bid on the table, was ordered to be printer! :-Regulations under the Navigation Act of 1876.

BARRO:'\ FALLS BILL.

QuESTION oP OnDER.

}fr. ·woODS ( Wonthnkntrt): I gave notice of a queetion to the Chi<'f Secrehtry, which was asked by the hon. member for Cairns yesterday. The question was-

What has become of the Bn.rron Falls Bill which was included in the Rockh'!Lmpton manifesto, for the oa.rry­ing· out of which the present coalition was formed~

The Premier, in reply, said-If the hon. member will con~mlt Standing- Order );o.

64, he will find that his quAstion is out oE order.

It is. news to me t~>t it is the province· of a Premier to occupy the po~ltion of SpPttker. Standing Order 64 reads as follows :-

In putting a question, no argume~t or opinion shall be offered, nor any fact stated, except so far as is necessdry to explain the rtnestion.

I would like to know whether you gave thrtt ruling, Mr. Speaker, or was it the ruling of the Pren1ier?

The PREMIER: The ruling of the Premier.

The SPEAKER: \Vhat prtrticular question ·dues the hon. gentleman refer to?

Mr. \VOODS : Entry No. 9 of ye,terday's proceeding>. The reply, no.t from you, but from the PremiPr, was-

If the honourahle member will con~ult Standing Order Xo. 64, he will find that his question is out of

·order.

I would like your ruling before we go any further. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Henr, hear !

The SPEAKER: I should like to point out to the hon. member that it is within the discretion of Ministers, within certain limitations, to decide what answers they give to questions a ked by bon. me m ben. They are entirely responsible for the >tnswers they give ; and if the Chief Secre­tary likes to reply in the terms be has employed to the question Hsked by the hon. member for Cairns on behalf of the hun. lJJember for \Voo­thakata, it is quite within his discretion to do so.

GovERN1!ENT :ME:I!BEHS : Hear, hear! Mr. JENKINSON: An extraordinary ruling.

Mr. WOODS: l arn not dealing with the Premier; I am de<tling with the Sreaker. I want to know who i" g<Jin<; to decide whether a question is in order or not-the Premier or the Speaker. I want your ruling, 11r. Speaker. I want to knnw as a member of this Chamber, with you in that chair as SpE' <ker--

The SPEAKER: Order, order !

Mr. ·woODS : Whether you are controlling this House or the Premier.

The SPEAKER: Order ! T c.%n give a v,;rv prompt answer to the hon. gentleman hy telling him that the Speaker decides que,tions of order,

and if the hrm. gentleman persists in the line he is now taking, I shall have io say he is out of order. GovER~MEN1' J'vb;i\IBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. ·woODS : Very well, I will get an answer from the Premier, in spite nf himself. I give n•ltice that to-morrow I will ask the Pre­rnier-

V\'hat has become of the Barron Falls Bill ::~s llromised in the Rockhampton programme?

The hon. gentleman won't twist out of that question--

The SPEAKER: Order, order !

Mr. \VOODS : With the assistance of the Chair.

GOVEl\~ii!EN1' 11Eii!BEHS: Ob, oh ! Chair!

The SPEAKER: Order, order ! I am sure that on reflection the bon. member for \Vootha­kata rrniRt qnite reali.:;e that no Speaker could allow "" ouservation of that kind to pass un­noticed.

HoNOCHABLE 11D!BEI\S : Rear, hea.r !

The SPEAKER : I am sure he cannot show anything in connection with parliamentary affairs which will sanction such a remark; and I, therefore, ask tbe hon. gentleman to be good enough to withdraw it.

:Yir. \VOUDS : In deference to the House I withdraw the statement. I will say this-that is the P'"ition we are placed in to-day. You will a~ree with me that the bnsiness-paper eub­mitted to us this afternoon goes to prove conclu­sively that t be Premier himself ruled my question out of order, and not the Speaker.

The SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. gentle­man must know that this is not the time to bring this matter up. If the hon. gentleman is not '.1tisfied with the reply from the Treasury bench hH rnnst follow the recognised par!iamen· tary c;mrse in order to express his disagreement.

Mr. \VOODS: Of coursP. I have to bow to your ruling. Probably. in the ne7r fut~1re we will h~tve an opportnmty of dealmg w1th the matter.

DEATH OF SIR FREDERTCK HOLDER.

}fESSAGE FROM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

The SP:EAKER: I have to announce that I have received the following letter from the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth:-

Commonwealth of Australia, Prime ~Iinister,

~Ielbourne, 28th July, 1909.

Sir -I have the honour to acknowledge with thanks the r~ceipt of your me:-sage of tbe 24th instan.t, e~m­veying- on behalf of yonrl'elf and the Leg-Islative Assembly or Queensland deepest sympathy at the sad death of the late Speaker ot the Honse of Represen­tatives.

On behalf of the members of the House of Repre'"en­tatives permit me to express warm appreciation of your sympathy.

I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant,

ALFRED D;:AKIN. The Honourable J. T. Bell, ~{.f,.A.,

Speaker) House of Assembly, Brisbane.

QUESTIONS.

\V AGES BOARD FOR SHORE E~GINE·DHIVERS.

Mr. BAHBER (Bundaberg) asked the Secre­tary for Pnulic \Vorks-

1. On what, date was the Order in Coun~il issued authorising tbe crr.ation of a wage<:. board for shore engine-driven; in the South-eastern division of the State?

552 Questions. [A.SSE:WBLY.] Questions.

2. Did a deputation of sugar-mill proprietors wait on the then Secretary for Public Vl'"orks, and request that sugar mills, juiC'e mills, and sngm· factories should be exempted from the operations of the board?

3. \VhR.t reasons were arhnJ..Df'ed in support of the ex­emptions being madP, and what was his reply or pro­mise thereto::

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. G. Jackson, Kennedp) replied-

!. 3rd June. 190\J. 2 and 3. ).ly predPces!';or in office, \fr. Appel, advises

me he was m formed by per~ons interested in the sugar industry that an application woulr1 be mRde for the constitution of a spedrtl board for that industry, and tha.t he dPP.mcd it desirable, on :tccount of the special conditions obtaining in the sugar inclnstry, that engine­drivers employed in c0rmection therewith should come under the determination of such board when consti­·tuted.

I may add that it is my intention to take the neces­sary steps at an early date for the appointment of a spechll board for the sugar industry within the South­eastern division of the State.

:Mr. WooDs: What about the North?

PLEYSTOWE CENTHAT~ SUGAR MILL.

Mr. BARBER asked the Secretary for Agri· cultnre-

1. On what date was the Pleystowe Central Sugar Mill taken over by the hank'

2. Has any dispute occurred between the canegrowers and the bank"now owning the mil I since the sale of the property by the Government?

3. Did he, as member for the district, and his col­league promise the growers to introduce a Bill em­powering the Government to repurchase the mill from the present owners of the property~

The SECRETARY I•'OR AGRICULTURE (Hon. vY. T. Paget, Macka!f) : The hon. gentle­man should have asked those questions of the Treasurer. However, I have obtained the in­formation from the Treasurer, and the answers are-

l. 3rd Jul:v. l9r6. 2. 9Xo information has been given of any dispute

between the canegrower~ and the bank. 3. Have no knowledge whatever of this matter.

GovEHNl\IENT TRAWLING.

Mr. BARBER a"ked the Uhief Secretary-!. How many sets of trawling gear have been secured

by the IYovernnwnt frJr the purpose of exploiting the fishing industry?

2. "lrVhat vessel is being used for trawling purposes? 3. What is the length of the trawl beam froUI head

to head? 4. If the" OttBr" sy~tem of trawl has bP.en adopted,

what is the length of the net across the head? 5. What rc,nlt has been achieved up to the present

time~

The PHEMI:ER (Hon. \Y. Kidston, Rock-ltampton) replied-

!. One "Ottqr" tra.wl. 2. Fisheries launch ·• O:;trea." 3. Department has no beam trawl. 4. "Otter" trawl, 25 feet spread, bo;:trd to board. 5. Four days' trawling in bay; no satisfactory

catche::~. Only a small number of fish taken, mostly ground-fish -namely, soleF, flounder, sea. prawns, and squat crHyfi.sh.

M~;TAL PIPES FOR IhmnGE Pr,AN1'.

Mr. HUXHAM (BriBIJane South) asked the Treasurer-

1. Have any metal pipes for the dredge plant been recently landed from ~otlthern States;.-

2. If so, what was tho quantity and cost landed at Brisbane?

3. 1Yere prke:~ for the vipes asked for from local makers?

4. If so. from whom were the prices obtained and their respective prices P

5. Wh:tt did the pipes cost thRt were made at the Government Dry Dock:

The TREASURER (Hon. A. G. C. Ho,w­thorn) replied-

1. Yes, for the tlo~ting pipe line of the dredge­"IIercnles."

~. 5-:tO lineal feet of patent loekingo-bar pipes \vere p1·o· cured from the patentees in ~cw South \.Vale!", 31essrs· G. and C. IIoskiw'. of :Sydney, at £1 5:-:.. per fnot, f.o.b· Syrlne.r; total hwded east, £762 12s . ..±cl. These pipes last about twice: a~ long as riveted pipes.

a. Xo: these pipes cannot be made in this State. ':1:, See answer to ~o. 3. 5. 60 feet of ri.veted pipe, for shore and pontoon, were

made at the Government dock at a cost of £l 3s. per lineal foot.

BHEACHES o~' LICENSING AcT.

1\Ir. ATREY (Brisbane South) asked the Home Secretary-

1. Is it a f:tet that a summrJns for a brench of the Lirensing Act in the Hamilton Hotel last Dceember was issned some months ago against one Jarnes Irvingr

2. Is it a fact that \V ben the case was en.lled before the court it was withdrawn owing to }Iinisterial inter­vention~

3. l'i! it a fact that on the same ilay that tbi& case was qunshed a man was found g-uilty of a similar offence at a Redcliffc hotel and fined-tbe licensee being fined also r

4. Will the ~linister kindly table all papers connected. with this case~namely, the c:tse of Jame;:; Irving?

The HOME SECHETARY (Hon. J. G. Appel·, Albe1·t) replied­

l. Tes. 2. Yes; at the instance or the Home Recretary, who

con:;:.idered it a case for l\Iinisterial intervemion. 3. :\o information on record in Home Department. 4. Yes, if desired.

CmrPLAINTs BY "\VAIPARA" hrMIGHANTs.

Mr. MURPHY (Cmpdon) asked the Chief Secretary-

Does the Government intend to hold an inquiry into the complaints made by the immigrants who arrived by the "Waipara," as to the laek of properly qualified medical attendanrb, bad sanitary arr11ngements of the vesset badly cooked food. lack of space formarriect women and children, aud the removftllrom tbe hospital of patie~ts suffering from m<<-tsleS~ before the proper perioll, whlCh removal mmsed a fresh outbreHk of that epidemic?

The PREMIER replied-A report havmg beeu received by wire from Rock­

hampton that measlt" hall appeared on the "Waipara,',_ the Health Department WHS immediately advi~ed and took prompt action. On the ship's arrintl in llri~bane the l;overnmenL medicnl officers found six ch1ldren sutl'ering from mr:l~le~, and one seriously ill from scarlf't feve~· and diphtheria. All the patients are under medlral tr~atment and m·e receiving every atten­tion. Some a1legations have been made as to the quality of tte food supplied on the "'Yaipara," which allega­tious are now bemg investigated, and if they are sustaine,l .such represcntat10ns will be made to the Briti.sll-Intlia Compar.v·as will, it is lwpcd, render it uLlikelv th~t there ,-\,ill br any grounds for similar complaint.s in 1uture.

TAxEs U!inEn CRHTAIN AcTs.

:Yfr. JI.IAKN (Cai1·ns) asked the Secretary for Public Lauds-

1-Vill he u~c his influence ~vith the Tr('asnrer to have the fol!owmg OlJ!HE'"lSive taxes removed from the primary producers:-

1. '!'he Live Stock and ::\1eat Export Tax ; 2. The Diseases in Stock Tax; 3. The Brands Tax; 4. The Diseases in Sheep Tax ; 5. The Db;eascs in Phmts Tax; 6. The Dairy Produce Tax, familiarly known as the:

cow tax.

(No answEr.)

Motion for AdJournment. [4 AUGUST.) Motion for AdJournment. 55:~

Mr. MANN: I ask leave lo give fresh notice of this question for to-morrow, as the Secretary for Public Lands is not in his place.

Mr. LESNON : Yes, he is; he is sitting there.

SUPPLY OE' POLICE lJSIFORMS.

Mr. LESINA (Clermont) asked the Home Sec­retary, without notice-

Whether any provision has been made on this year's Estimates for the supply ot' police uniforms P

The HOi\IE SECHETARY: In answer to the hon. gentleman, I would like to point out that, m replying to a similar question the other afternoon, I said that the matter was now being investigated. I am receiving reports on the sub­ject, which will be laid before the Cabinet.

THE MENU AT Dt:NWICH.

Mr. LESIN ... I\..: I \Vould also liko to further ask the Home Secretary, without notice-

Whether he is correctly reported in the Courier this morning as having determined tfl make an alteration in the menu at Dunwich, by the addition of cabbage to the menu once a.fortnight? (Loud laughter.)

I would further like to ask whether be intends to add blue peas to the menu as wen:-(Continued laughter.)

The HOME SECRETARY: I have no objec­tion to answering the first question of the hon. member, because I am in po;session of the facts-

Yes; I have given the necessary instructions. (Langhter.) With re.;ard to the second question, I 1have no know~ ledge of that partieular~class of vegetable. (Laughter.)

Mr. MANN : More dress circle.

MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT. FINANCIAL AHRANGEMENTS BETWEEN THE

COMMOSWEAL'J:H AND THE 81'A1'ES.

Mr. AIREY (BriJbane South): I beg to move the adjournment of the House, to call attention to the urgent need of setting apart a rlay for the purpose of rliscussing the financial relations between the States and the Commonwealth.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

The SPEAKER: I have received the follow­ing communication from the junior member for South Brisbane :-

The Honourrtble the Rpeaker, 4th Angnst, 1909.

Queensland Legislative Assembly,

Sir,-I beg to give yon. notice that it is mv intention this afternoon (4th August) to move the adjournment of the House, in order to drrtw attention to the urgent need for :;;ctting apart a day for the purpose of discuss­ing the financial relations between the States and the Commonwealth. I deem this a matter of nrgenc:v on account of the near approach of the conference to be held in :\Ielbourne on this question: also on account of the proximity of the date on which the protection of the "Braddon blot., expires.

I am. Sir, Yours faithfully,

P. AIREY. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

The SPEAKER: In view of the fact than notice has been given of the intention on the part of the Chief Secretary to move, on to­morrow, the suspension of the Standing Orders in order to allow of the passage of a Supply Bill, and as that provides any opportunity any

hon. member requires for discussing .my finan­cial question, I consider that it is my duty not to accede to the request of this letter.

GovERN:I!ENT MEMBJ;;RS : Hear, hear !

Mr. AIREY: I shall be under the necHsity then, Sir, of n1oving that your ruling be dis­agreed with, for the following reasons:-­

OPPOSITION l\IEMBEHS : Hear, hear !

Mr. AIREY : In the first place, the oppor­tunity which would be afforded of discussing the m:>tter is so lamentrtbly insufficient that thi; House might as well have no opportunity at all. (Hear, hec;r !) It is not a fitting thing that a question of this kind-a question of the utmost imJJOrtauce-the very biggest question, financially spe<tking, and in other respects too, that can be discuosed by this House-should be sandwiched into a motion for th6 suspension of the Standing Orders, possibly with a score or thirty or forty other liLtle adminibtrative details which ll1ay C01118 Up fur diRCUSEi\JD. rrhis is by far the most important que"tion that this House can have discusser!, and the very least that we cs.n do upon such an occasion is to have a suit­able time set apart for the specified purpose that I have mentioned.'

OPPOSITION MEii!BERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. AlREY: I'iow, I brought forward this matter last year, when it cannot be said to have been half so urgent as it is at the present time, and the Speaker of that chy might have said, "Subsequent opportunities may arise, there will be notices of the S'lspension of the Standing Orders coming on for Supply Bills, and there will be opportunity for discussion on. that occa­sion," but the Speaker on that occasion sairl no such thing. He recognised at once that ~matter of this importance should have a specified tune to itself, and he recognised another fact which apparently you do not recognise-which _I may say with all due respect to you-and that 1s that a matter of this kind is dealing with the House, and on the House lie;; the responsibility of accepting a motion of this kind if it i,;_ carried. I want to show the House how utterly rmproper it is that a matter of this kind should be discus,;ed in this hokus-pokus way on a motic•n for the sus­pension of the Standing Orders.

The PRE1IIER: I rise to a point of order. Is that in order?

Mr. MAI'{N: You are not the judge. LABOUR l\1E~JBEHS : Order ! and you are not

the Czar. The SPEAKER: Order ! I wish to hear the

point of order. The PREMIER: It is not whether it is the

proper line of action ; it is whether it is in ;:>rd_er. 1 underot~nd the hon. gentleman 1s quest10mng yonr ruling as to a matter of order. The pro­priety of the course of action i<' not in questwn. No arguments are required to shuw that this or that course is the better course. The only ques· tion is, Is the ruling given by you in order?

Mr. Mt:RPHY: You cannot bluff us.

The ~PEAKER: Order ! I should like fi rot of all to say that when an hon. member is epeaking to a point of order, it is highly disorrlerly for oth8r rne1nbers to interject. 1 gave the ruling, on reading the letter from the hon. junior member for Brisbane South, that the matter that he wished to move the adjournment of t 1;e House about-namely, that the question of the financial relations between the t:ltates and the Common­wealth was a dennite matter of urgent ]Jublic importance-that it did not warrant me to ass;nt to his proposal, in view of the fact that a motton stands un the busineo>-paper for to-morrow

Hon. J. T. Bell.]

554 Motion for AdJournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motwn for AdJournment.

which gives about as wide a limit to the dis­cussion as any motion does which ma.y be brought l:efore this Chamber.

Mr. \Voolls: It will be settled with the "gag."

The SPEAKER: That was my ruling. The ho~. membe_r thereupon rose and moved that my rulmg be dJRagreed to. I have been followin~ the hon. member attentively, and I understand he is about to give reasons wby, from the point of Yiew of parliamentary procedure, my view should he diS'ented from. I would point out that so far as the hon. member has "<me he is following out that puq•ose. "

0PPOSITIOX MEo!BERS : Hear, hear! Mr. AIREY : Another reason, and a most im·

portant reason, .why this matte,. is not being dis­cussed in the particular manner indicated is this: If we had ,;rrived at any kind of a definite con­clusion in this House, there io only one w.>y that I see in which it can be done, and it is this: In New Sunth \Vale., the Premier, ::\lr. \Vade tabled certain specific proposals. The House: from every point of view, discussed those pro­posals, and recorded their verdict upon them. Now, with all re,pect to your ruling, Sir, if we enter on a desultory di,cussion on the motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders, it may amount to this: i\femhers of the Government party, or members of the Opposition, may get up, and give their own individual opiniom, and the Premier ancl the ::\Iinistry will be perfectlv at liberty to criticise those opinions. They will be perfectly at liberty to either flout or jeer at them, or, perhaps, t(.) agree with thern ; and, per.h~ps:, a~ t~e bl,me tn;ne, they rnay express no d•·_fimte OJHlllo:'s of thmr own. They may give th1s House no 1dea as to what they intend to do.

OPPOSITION ::\IE1!BERS: Hear, hear !

::\Ir. AiltEY: That is the fundamental diffi­culty in a proposal of that kind. Xow, I have dealt with tlmt phase of the que .. tion, and I will de1tl n?": with one or two othc r phase" why I deem 1t IS all1mportant that this time should be given in the way I h1tve sp"cified. As every mernberknows, we are approaching the time of the exp1ry of the Braddon blot, and, if no arrangement is mad, within the next few months, we may be face to fece with a very great de1tl of financial disorder. The Premier himself has adm1tt.ed the urgency of this question by the fact that he wished to have power to go down to Melbourne. If, then, it is sn urgent that this House is to suspend its business so that the Premier may go to :Melbourne, then I say the case is sufficiently urgent for time to be set apart to have this important q nestion fully and thoroughly discussed 1tnd well thrashed out.

Nir. BLAIR: Before anything is done.

Mr. AIREY : If it i~ necessary that he, or any other member of th1s House, should gu to Melbourne to discuss this all-important questiOn then I maintain it is also absolutely necessary that the opinions and re,.,sons of this House should be heard before the House should pass the resolution.

OPPOSITION MEllrBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. AIREY : I venture to suggest that there were sufficient precedents for action in this matter last year. I then brought forward a similar motion, and I think the case at that time was nothing like so strong as it is now. Although months wem to elapse before any Premier or :Minister, or any represent.ative of this Hou,e, could go to Hobqrt or :Melbourne to rliscuss this question, still the then Premier thought it we.s sufficiently important to allow the motion for adjournment to stand. I might point out that not only was that so, but the Premier himself on that particular occasion, gave an opinio~

[Hon. J. T. Bell.

which is well worthy of note. The Premier's opinion was this-in discussing the very point we raise now, the suspension of the Standing Orrler. The Speaker gave his opinion on this m1ttter-

The SPEAKER: I do not see any point of order. What the Premier said is quite right. The Speaker is per­fectly powerless in this matter.

Mr. HA)1ILTON: He said you knew it was done for the purpm:e of wasting time.

The PREMIER: Anydne 'vho will read the Standing Orders for himse-lf will see that the Speaker is perfectly powerless in this matter. 1Vha.tever his personal opinion may be, the Htanding Orders-unfortuDately, I think-do not give him the power to exercisA his per­sonal judgment so long as a certain number of hon. members rise in the House, and advantage was taken of that for the purpoSr) of carrying on a purposele~s and useless debate in this House.

However, I will not introduce that matter now. I have to apologiRe, This was with regard to the application of Standing Ord'lr No. 13GA.

Mr. MANN: He was dealing with a point that it was a waste of time.

Mr. AIREY: The PRE~HER: When the hon. member !or South

Brisbane proposed the motion for the adjournment of the House the other day the members of the Opposi~ tion thought it was a godsend. Here was another chance of wasting time.

)fr. Rmv"1U.:'i: That is untrue. JUr. HAMIJ,TO::'l": Was it not an important subject P 'fhe PRE~HER.: It was simply a waste of time. 1\ir. BmY3IAN : That is not true.

And then the hon. member came to his point-~'he PRE~!IER: Anyone who will read the Standing

Orders for himself w1ll see that the Speaker i.s perfectly powerles~o in this matter. \Vhatever his personal opinion may be, the Standing Orders-unfortunately, I think-do not give him the power to exercise his per~ sonal judgment so~ long as a cerhlin number of hon. members rise in the House, and advant~ge was taken of that for the purpose of carrying on a purpmelfy~ and useless debate in this House.

That was the opinion of the Premier upon the functions of the Speaker in this particular matter. Now, this is not the first time this question has arisen in this House, and I would like to refer back to " dbcussion th1tt took place in the year 1901, when the hon. member for Locky8r, ll1r. ,\rmstrong, took the same stand that I am taking to-day, and moved that the ruling of the Speaker on a question of this kind be disagreed with. An

eminent anthority on questions re­[4 p.m.] bting to the Standing Orders then

in the House, the Hon. A. S. Cowley, the hon. member for Herbert, gave a most interesting summary of the whole position from various standpoints. The hon. member for Lockyer himself quoted a case that had occurred some years before in this House. The hon. member said-

The first occasion upon which this question was brought before the House was on a proposed motion for adjournment by an hon. member sittini.;" on the opposite side, )fr. ~IcDonald, the then member for Flinders. He wished to move the adjournment of the House on a definite matter of urgent public importancR, and 1\Ir. SpeakPr Cowley put the question from the chair. The then Premier, Sir Thomas )icilwraith, objected to the question being put, and moved that, the Speaker's ruling be disagreed to. After considerable discus:;;ion the ruling was upheld on the ground that l\Ir. Speaker had supported his rnlinp: with deeisions of Mr. Speaker Brand of the English House of Commons, one of which said-

It is not for the Spraker to say whether a matter is ot urgent public importance.

Then the hon. member for Herbert, in discussing the question, said-

Like most Houses in His l!ajesty's dominions we take our practiCe from the practice of the House of Com~

Motion for AdJournment. [ 4 .AUGUST.] Motion for AdJournment. 555

mons. The same practice had existed in the House of Commons as formerly existed here-that is, that any two members could move the adjournment of the House. They found there that a great deal of time was wasted. and they determined to amend the Standing Order, and that patticular Standing Order ·was debated for ~o:everal nig-hts. It was originally introduc.3d in quite a difft;rent form. AR nearly as f can remember, when it was introduced bj' the Government., instead of allowing two members thA right to move a motion for the adjournment of the House, it was proposed that it should devolve upon tlw House itself, as sn;.:,{ested by the Premier to-day, and that a majority of the House ~hould decide. After a very long :tnd intelligent debate 111 the House of Commons, it was cle:uly pointed out that if that pnrtic'nln.r proceclnre was adopted, the pro­babilities were that the adjournment of the House would never bf' moved, brcanse the Government, or the day, having a majority, wonld exerch:e that majority, and the probabilities are that the :tdjournmcnt of the House would never be m on !. Well, 'thls question was debait>d at very great length, and a c'1mpromise was .arri'i"ed at after ·very careful ccmsirteration, whi(~h was aceepted by ~Ir. Gladstone, and resulted iu the Standing Order which nr1v·: stands in the Irnverial Sta~1ding o.rders and in our own, which are practically a fac lm.till' of thf'm. At the winding up or the debate, :\lr. Glad~tone went into the ·whole .subject and surunmrised it. He said-

" I do not think I am entitled to addrf'ss the House again upon the first question lJUt to me by the noble lord, nor can I, as to the point involved iu the ques­tion, spl~'lk with authority. \nth regard tt> the second question, howeYer, it involve c.; a 1Jer~onal explanation of what it was that I di~ say. I will only re1Jeat that, as we framed the resolunon-" I may say that ::\Ir. Gladstonc is s.peaking of that par­ticular Standing Order \Vhich, aR originally introdnced, provided tbat a majority of the House should decide the mattLr of urgency. He said-·H it wns hased on tbe agreement of the m:~jor~ty of the Hcuse. and a decision by the majority of the House. 1Ye e;nsente1l in conformity with the amendment of my hon. frieml, the mPmber for \Yolverlunnpton (Hr. H. H. l•'m~ ler1, to substitute for an appeal to that rrwjority of the Hout.e a vrovision in which a certain number of member~ would ·be entitled absolutely and uncondllion· ally to authorise the motion for the adjournment." This was the debate in the House of Comn1ons in 1882.

That was 3\Ir. Gladstone's clear o.nd emphatic dictum. Then Mr. Cowley went on to quote a specific inst:mce where the Speaker of the House of Comnwns, in answer to questions, said-

That i..-; a matter which is entirely >vithin the dir.crr­tion of lion. memhers who may ch.oose to support the hon. member's proyosals.

I think that is pretty ch'''r. A little further on, the hon. member said-

! b"ve :-<hown what lfr. Gladstone·s opinion was, who was the leader of tlJC Government in tbe House or Commons at that tiniB-that rather than allow two rur.mbers 10 move the adjournment of the House, he proposed, and it. was decided, Lhat forty members in the House of Commons should have thP- absolute right to deelare whether a matt\ r was ur;;ent, or whether it was not.

And, of course, five members in this House represent the forty members required in the House of Commons. There wets a long discus­sion on that occasion on the point, and I draw your attention, Sir, to the fact that sinc0 that time, broa<Jly speaking, the practice of Speakers in this Honse has been to throw the responsi­bility upon the House for the action that is taken in regard to a motion for adjournment. \Vhat­ever may he said of its wisdotn. it cannot be said that this House has sinned very much in movin!' motions for the adjournment of the Hons8. I have only moved such a motion twice in the last nine year~, and I think I have sern sessions go by wiLh the adjournment nf the House having been moved only once, and perhaps not at all. The fir0t fault I have to find wrth yonr ruling, Sir, is this: The device you sugge,t-the discus­sion of this matter to· morrow upon the motion for the suspen,ion of the Standing Orders-is no solution at alt of the difficulty in which we find

ourselves. Before our delegate-whether he be Premier or not-goes to J\1elbourne, it is impor­tant that he should be apprised of what our opinions arP. If he is to go at all-there may he two opinions, of conrse, as to that-if he is to go at all, he should know what is t':Je opinion of this HouRe, and the opinion of this House c:.nnot be as­certained unless there is some specified, definite, proposal before the House, made by the Gonrn­ment, upon which the House can give its verdict. I suggest that you, Sir, in the rnhng that you have given-if I mrty say so with all rr;spect­nre acting unwibely. I r,hink you are going to put ns in the same predicament, if we do not n1ind oursel veR, as t.he House of Cominons was in England, when it all depended upon one or two rnen, or when the other propo.sal w HH n1ade to throw the whole responRibi\ity on the ma,iority in the House, which simply meant that the Go­vernment w:)uld allow a rn;)tlon for arljonnnnent if they liked, and would refuse if it they did not like it. I submit that your rnling tends to U]net the practice adopted, I think, by both 1\Ir. Spe!1ker Cowley and Mr. Speaker Leahy. I submit th•t it is unwise, and I think that you yourself, Sir, on more mature consideration, will find that that is so. A 'luestion of this kind­a ']Uestion that affects the whole deveiopment of Queensland, that may affeet onr autonomy, that may affect our financial ,;olvency-is undoubtedly the most important quF 4 tion that mLn be placed before thi~ Assemb1y. Nobody can deny that, and it ill becomes tile Premier, or the ruajority of this House, to refuse time to discuss so im­portant a question.

::Yir. BLAIR: Bludgeon it through.

::vir. AIREY: Le-';S than twelve months ago a new political cornbination was forrned in the country-sn we were told-for the express pur­po::,e of settling the finRncial relation~ between the State and the Commonwealth. So nnportant was the qutstion deemed that a new politic::tl combination wBs formed to settle it. Now it is w nnimportant that we cannot get a day to dif3CU~S it.

The SPEAKER: Order! I think the hon. member will fl-ee tha.t he iR going out~ide the question before the House, and is discussing the merits of the qmstion upon which he de;ires to move the adjournment of the House.

Mr. AIREY: That is so, :\Ir. Speaker. I regret having to tal<e np this stand. In the majority of cases I do not think it i;; altogether wise to challenge the ruline: of the Speaker, but on the prt·sent occs.sion there is an irnrortant principle at stake, and therefore I have to adhere to my motion that your ruling be disagreed with.

:Mr. KENN A (Bowen) : There are two aspects of this matter which I desire to lay before hon. members. One is the matter of fact-the plain, common-sense view of the thing. After all, in interpreting our Standing Orders, ur constitu­tional practice, one must always take a common­sense view of the matt~r, and in the ma,iority of cases, I think, we find that the common-sense view is the one that underlies e-ither the Standing Orders or constitutional practice. Now, what is the position? A motion has been tabled by the Premier asking for an adjournment of the House to en:tble him to proceed to lYielbourne to take part in the conference of Premiers to deal with the financial relations with the Commonwealth. The junior member for Brisbane South has raised a motion for adjournment in order to discnss the very ']Uestion for which the Premier wants to adjourn the House to go away to Melbourne. That is the plain fact. The Premier wants to get away without any instruction or opinion from this House. He wants to have a free hand to go

Mr. Kenna.]

556 Motion fur Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion for Adjournment.

to l\felbourne and impress his own \iews on that conference, and ignore any opinion which this House may entertain.

Mr. FoRSYTH : It will have to be ratified by this Hon~e all the same.

~Ir. KENNA: This House will ratify any­tbmg be does. As I have already said, common sense underlies our Standing Orders, and in common sense it seems to me that such a motion as that which the bon. member for Brisbane South proposes to submit should necessarily he in order, otherwise the right of this House to instruct or advise or offer suggestions to the Premier with respect to tbe more or less impor­tant mission be wishes to undertake will be restricted.

Mr. LESI:-;A: \Yhat right has he got to go there at all?

OPPOSITION l\JE~IBEHS: Hear, hear!

1\Ir. KEl'\N A: That is quite another question. That question will be decided upon the motion for the adjournment of the Hcm'e till 24th August. "\Ve can then decide whether he should go or not go, anrt whether he has any right to go.

Mr. THORN : The country demands it.

Mr. KENNA: I submit that your ruling, Sir, if given effect to, will result in a serious entail­ment of the privileges of members of this Hou.,e, in that it will prevent the House expressing its view on a most important matter, for the discus­sion of which with other Premiers the bon. gentleman at the head of the Government wishes to secure a special adjournment of the House. That is one view of the matter, but I purpose to dwell more particularly upon the Standing Order-the technical aspect of your ruling. :First of all I would point out that the right of hon. member• to move the adjournment of the Honee to call attentio'l to matters of urgent public importance is one of the most sacred rights we possess. It is the best protection and safeguard that the Standing Orders and consti­tutional practice afford to the minority. It is one of the hest means at their disposal for retain­ing what rights they may have.

Mr. BLAI!l : They have equal rights.

Mr. KEXNA: Yes; all members have equal rights in this House. The right to move the adjournment of the House to call attention to matters of urgent public impilrlance is the pro· teetion "'nd ,afeguard of the minority. I dtsire to Impre:-l.H that point upon tnmnberl:l sitting on this side of the House, and aho upon bon. mem­bers opp<mi te, because wheru we sit to-day they may sit to-morrdW,

Mr. BLAin: They will sit here.

Mr. KJ<;!'\NA: I wish to impress upon all hon. members that in allowing even the slightest frittering away of their undoubted right to move the adjournment of the House to call attention to a matter of urgent public importance, they are doing themselves a harm that will affect them and future minorities. I have always regarded this right of iudividual members to move the adjournment of the House as one of the mosc sacred right' in their possession. \Vbat does your ruling amount to, Sir? I venture to think that you will not find from a, study of the authorities a single authority that endorees the ruling- :von hR,ve given, and yonr ruling amounts to this~that the Speaker has the right to say what is a m:.tter of urgent public importance.

OPPOSITION 11EMBERS: Hear, hear! That is the poillt.

Mr. KENNA: That is the very kernel and essence of the whole thing. If you can s"'y that a matter must be postponed until to-morrow, you

[Mr.Kenna.

also have the right to say that it must be post­)Mned till next week ; and, if you have the~ right to say that it ml~.<t be postponed till next ...:eek, you al'o have the right to sc:ty that it must be postponed till next year. If the House endor,es your ruling~a rnling by which you inclirectly arrog.••,te to your~eif th right to say whether a matter is of urgent public importance or not~tben it will endor.<e " decision for which 1 venture to think you will find no authority.

An HoNOvHABLE l\fE~IBER: The Premier savs he will. -

Mr. KENN A : I do not cnre what I he Pre­mier says. I do not consider his opinion of any more weight in determining the proper interpre­tation of a St:'LtHling- Order than the opinion of the humblest member in this House. \Vhat dJes ":\lay " say? On page 25-!, he says~

Though the respJnsibility of bringing forward a matter, as a matter of urgency, rests with the member who desires to exercise the right given by the Standing Order-

There you have a clear and definite pronounce· ment, by an accepted authority, that the right to determine wha.t shall be a matter of urgency rests, nut with the Speaker, but with the m em· bers who support the proposed motion for ad­journment. That opinion has been upheld by previous Speakers in this Assernbly~by Sir Alfred Cowley and by Mr. ,John Leahy. Our Standing Order ou this subject is ju't the Stanq· ing Order of the House of Commons, with th1s difference, th>tt in the House of Commons forty members n1w't rise to support the Inotion for adjournment, while in our House, which is a much smaller body, we require only five me~­bers to rise in support of the motion. That IS the only diffemnce between the House of Com· mons Standing Order df';;ling with the right of members to move the adjourriment of the House and our Standing Order dealing with the same subject.

Mr. HA;IIILTON: The numbers differ, but the proportion is the same.

Mr. KENN A : I will now refer the House to ~' Denui~on's and Brand's Decisions, I-Iouse of c.nmnons, 1857~1884." On page 8 of that work will be found this decision of !11r. ;:)peaker Brand~

An hon. member who seeks to move the adjonrnment of t,he House is bnund to state to the House the definite matter of urgent public importance whieh he de:siret~- to bring on. It is not for the Speaker to say whether the matter iR Of urgent public importance. rl'llC hon. member states this upon his own re~ponsibility.

When this matter was being discusEed in the House of Common•, iu 18:3:!, !llr. Parnell is re­ported, in the House of Commons Hansard, 14th November, page 1448, as saying~

\Vould the Speaker himself have to decide whether the matter was of urgent public importan~e, or wonld the declaration oE tile member ri;;;ing' in hi::; pla.ce, and snpported by forty other members, be acc0pted as to the fact.

They were dealing with an amendment of the Standing Order in regard to this matter. The Speaker, in reply, said~

The construction I should put on the amend1nt=<nt as it ~tands is thnt the question of nrg-ency should rest not 'vith the Speaker, but with the member desiring to bring the question forward.

The SPEAKER: The hon. member will for­give me intP.rruvting him, but I Rhould like h~m t<> hear in mind tlmt I have not questioned the mat'er as to whether the subject is uf urgent public importance at dl. 1\ly ruling is based mainly upon the assumption that I do not con­sider it my duty to accept the motion, in view of the fact that a full opportunity for diocussion on the matter will occur to-morrow.

Motion for Adjournment. [4 AUG-UST.] Motion for .Lfrljournment. 557

Mr. KENN A : I am thoroughly aware of the nature of your ruling, but underlying it is the very principle that I am enunciating, because if you, in your capacity as Speaker, are allowed to have the rig-ht t' determine whether a question of moving the adjournment of the House is of so little importance, or is of such importance only that it can be discuF-;ed to-morrow, then we must admit that you also have the right to say whether it will be discus•;ed next week; and, if you admit the right to say tlmt it will be dis­cussPd nPxt week, you must admit the right to s:;y that it will be discussed next ye- tr. I adn'iit that your ruling dues not directly bear on the point I have indicated, but it does indirectly.

OPPOSITION l\IgMBEHS: He-,r, hear! Mr. ALHEY: 'fh,,t is the point.

Mr. KEN;"\fA: Tbe,t io> the danger of it. It is an jndirectruling which, if given effect to, would und rmine the right which every member in this Houso:.: und,iUbtedly has, \V ben he wi~hes to move the adjournment of the House, to say whether the mattr:>r i~ of urgent public import:mce, or whether it is not. Tllat is the point. I wish to impres' ngain upon hon. mernber ,,, that one of the bt:,~t alld fin'C:~t privilt,gesthPyhaveisthe privilege to li~\~ nv ~l,t ai_ly time ~lnd bring any !natter they de?.In of Fmflicient nrgent puhlie irnportance bdore the notice of the Hou,e, and before the notice oi th,-· cc~nutry ; and if t-he hon. merr1bers will alluw their right to lk fritt~red t.way, as this ruling of yam:~ i ,y1 indirec~~I w,)n'L t~a,y attelnvt-but,it wcmld indirect!} nnck tllirh-J a. privilege \' Lich is SUP!HJrtui hy the LH~..-;t a,nt!lorities ti:u.tt one can po~-·;ibly get~then thF cont--:eqner:ce~ rr1ust be \.ll1 their O'-\ n heads. I hope hon. n1en1har~, in d.eal­in:~' with this rna.tter, will see the importane~ uf it, anrl that they will record their votes accordingly.

HoN. R PHILJ> (1'ownsvillc) : I regret very much, t;ir, that your ruling ha~ been questbned. I retuember Kevera,l occa,si1.)ns 'Nhen similar rnution~ haYe been nwde, and the Speaker baR pointed out that on the Ji~stimates there would be an ample opportnnity to }Jave a, di'lcussinn on the particular malter. It m1ght n.,t he within Oll'' wt·ek Ol' one rnonth-it tnight not be at all~ hut the Sp, aker distinctly 'aid that thiii i em could be diRr·us~ed on the E"·timitte', l\nd ruled

y~)u, Sir, have ruled to. day. I \Vould like to pmnt on1~ thn,t I take the c' nnmon-~ense view. \Ve are to hrvve tt di·cn.ssion thi; afternoon, and if n1en1hers are honeRtly desiron~ of giving an inRtrnction to the Prernier, there i~: nmp]e timP to-day and to-nwrrow to di·"c I;;:S the lna.trer'. I thir~k i1: t\VO da,yH we shoul·-I know t:,e opiuiou of the Hnme as to what oucht to take plaee in :\:Ielbo\1rne.

!Hr. LESINA : \V e cannot give &n instruction on the 1uatter.

HoN. R. PHILP: I wish to pomt out that it is not more than two yearN ago that the hon. memher for South Brisbone was a. col:cague of the Premier. He voted for the Premier to go to 1\1< lbonrne, then allowed the House to be adjourned without raising the question at all.

Mr. AIREY : It was not urgent at that time. (Government laughter.)

Ho~. R. PHILP: It has been urgent for the last seven or eight yea!",

GovEH~}IEN'r MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

HoN. R. PHILP: Unless we come to terms very very 'oon, we shall not come to terms at all. I say the motions for to-day ancl to-morrow will give this House ample opportunity to discuss Federal finance, and to give what instructions they like to the Pr, mier. If the hon. member for South Brisbane is honestly desirous-I believe he is-this session he ga1·e a very interesting

speech on Federal finance, and dealt with it as ably a~ anyone could have done. I am satisfied thrre are not half a dozen men in this House now whose opinions would be worth listening to on the matter.

0PPOSI~'JOX :\:IEMBEHS: That is a libel on the House.

Hox. R. PHILP: If the hon. member for South Brisban,, really wants to get a full discus­sion on the questi'Jll of the coofPrence in 11!:1-bonrne, I say we have the whole of to-day and to-morrow, and thac is quite amj,le time for any House to discuss the IDi::\ tter.

GOVERNMENT MKHBERS : Hear, hur!

:i'vlr. BOW:YIAN (Fortitude Valley) : I rise to Rupport. the nwtion of thP junior rnen1 ber for South Brisbane. I think, my-celf, thRt tht' reasons that have heen nd<.:tncerl, both by thP hon. HlPmber for South BrLhane n.nd the hon. rneP1ber for Bo,\·en, are sutE.cif'nt to warrant my~eH ~n rlisa!!'rreing to the ruling you, Sil', have la1d down to-1lay. I see the danger- I do not wish t.o hnputc any n1otives to yon at all Speaker of t.he House--I think you have given your rul­ing believing it is right, bnt I, ~;s a n1ernber of this HousP, recogni~P. that yon are. tn-d.a.y ex; r­cisin.{ a -pow8r that might Le detl'irrwntal to any member of thi.< House in the fntnre.

0PPOSI'l'IOX ::\IE:\fBEHS: Hear, hear!

Mr. BOW:\IA='J: My own opinion is thitt t.he opportunity that yr>u suggested of di,cussinY this mat~ ::n· nn tht Appropriat.i11n Bill to-nlurro\oV H3 not .ufilcient. I do not think there will be suf­fir"ent time, nnd I honestly rhink that a matter that has engaged tlw attention of the Prmniers of the Conmlonwt..tlth now during s Vt'H con­ferencPR, and a n1atter on which they b~tve Tl8'J8r b n '1 hle to come to any defini t.'"" eonclu:.ion a:,, to what :.:honld he b,id do\Vn in the interee.ts of the ConanOn\vPalth and the StatPS-<!n:l it is the very question that when the conference takes place--

The SPEAKER: Order, otrler! I think the hon. 1nen1hJr is getting away frorn the qne~tion.

:\Le. BOW~\IAK: They are so cl''' ly allied that nne is ap!; to ~_,et c•ff the track. Tt1e chief point I rai~:_, iH thi~: I think it l~ '1 d8-ngee to hon. mnnlJel's of this .. A.ssetnLly if they agree to ytnu rn1ing.

0PP08ITION :\IE}!BERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. TIOWMAN: A mat\er of very public impq1·~ance rnay f!.riRA in the opinion of any l10n. rne1nber of thi,-J Chmuher, and ·it restB entirely with you, a< Spc·>ker"-if your mlin>( is upheld to-day-to Ray whether an hon. memher is at liberty to move the adjournment of the House. 0PPO~ITIOX ME}!BF.HS : Hear, hear ! That is

the point.. i\'Ir, BOW MA~: That is one of the privileges

that I, as long as I am in this House, intend to defend.

Mr. Sn!NER: Should five hon. members rise in their places they c"•nnnt obje•ct to ir.

Mr. BOWi\IAl'\: I think the case, that have been cited by the hon. member for Bri,bane South and the hon. member for Bowen should even cau;;;.e you to waive the decihion yon have alre>.dy given. I think ample evidence has been given, and I am sure the spirit in which those remarks have been made by those hem. members ha'~ not been in antagonism to you; it has simply been a question of lJrPserving our rights. (Go­vernment laughter.) The Premier may comile, but let me remind t.be hon. gentleman that when he sat in Opposition there wa,s no man that safe­guarrled his rights more than the same hem_ gentleman,

OPPOSITION li1Eli!BERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. Bowmrr;c.1

558 Motion for Adjour·nment. [ASSEMBLY.l Motion for AdjoUJ·nment.

Mr. BO'.VMAX: And to-day I feel certain that he will uphold you, Sir, rightly or wrongly, so long as he can defeat the object of any hon. member sitting in Opposition.

The SPEAKEn: Order! I am afmid the hon. gentleman's observations at present are not quite in nrder.

Mr. BOWMAN : T will not delay the House, Mr. Speaker. I don·'" think better reasons can

be advanced than have already been [4.30 p.m.] given, and I intend to support the

junior member for South Brisbane in his opposition to your ruling.

Mr. BLAIR (Ipswich): This, Sir, is a very serious matter, and it is a maLter that ought not to be allowed to go without the most ample dis­cussion. It is ahvays a matter f1)r regret when it becorne~ neces!:'lary to rnove that the 8peaker's ruling be di.:-agreed with, though, I an1 Rure, you recognise that the motion is moved simply and solely with the view of ascertaining whether or not the Standing Order has been complied with, and whether or not your interpretation of the Stand­ing Order i~ correct. The motion of the junior member for Suuth Brisbane is to thiR effect: He moves the adjournment of the House in order to riraw attention to the urgent need for setting apart a dlty for the purpose of discussing the financial relations between the States and the Commonwealth. The Standing Order under which his action is taken is Nu. 130, which provides-

A motion for the adjournment of the House other than the nsual motion to terminate the sitting of the House at the end of the business of the day shall not be enteri·tit1ed, except for the purpose of debaiing n definite ma-tter of urgent public importance, the subject of which has been fir.:;t stated to 1\fr. Speaker in writing.

Any such motion shall be proposed by the mover without debate in the first instance, but shall not be put by Mr. Speaker unless five other members at least ri~e in their places to support it.

And this important pabrtge occurs-If five members so rise in their places, the mover may

proceed. The junior member for South Brisuane has quoted the utterance of the Premier on another occasion, which was to the effect that this Shnding Order did not allow you to exercise your personal judgment on the question; and I am inclined to the view that if five member" so rise in their places the moHr would have abso­lute right to proceed withont any recourse what­ever to your judgment on the matter.

OPPOSITION ME~JBEHS : Hear, hear!

:i'.fr. BLAIH: I remember another occctsion when the Premier used words which seem abso­lutely appropriate on this occasion. He staV·'d that" they only have rights who do.re maintain then1," and I think those word~ are peculiarly appropriate at this juncture. (H· u, hear!) H cann()t, f'eriously be contended that this i..; not n,

rn·--~,tt,~"~' of nrgont pub1ic importance. Indeed, you, Sir, have already pointpd out th>tt in ynur opinion it is a rnatter ot urgent public import­ance ; but I venture to say, with all deference, that your ruling is a begging of the question, Lec~use in your interpretation of tbe Standing Orders you have tcld us thttt ina•nnnch as an opportunity will be vouch;mfed for the discu'­sion of the matter, it is not within the rights of the junior member for South Brisbe.ne to pro­ceed tn-day. ThH.t, I take it, in plain lHngnage, simply postpones the urgency. While admitting that the 1Y1atter iH one of urgent public inlJJOrt­ancP, you deprive the member who has risen in his placed his undoubted right to move at this juncture. I put it in this way: '.V hat guarantee have we that the notices on the paper wrll be followed?

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

[Mr. Bowman.

Mr. BLAIR: \Vhat guarantee have we that the order of procecl ure will be followed to­morrow? It is ouen to the Premier, as lt"ader of this House, to decide the order of busine.s~, to say what shall be on the busine's paper, or to decide whether the mattprs which appear now shall be postponed, or whether'· they will he withdrawn altogether.

OPPOSITION 1\fE;I!BERS: Hear, hear !

?vir. BLAIR : Putting it nwrely from an argumentative point of view, that cloes t>way with the ground you have given for yom: ruli:rg. Unle:-.s we protest Rtrongly on an occasion hke this we are whittling away the rights given us under the Constitution as embodied in Standing Order No. 130. An almost identical point was raised some time ago by the hon. member for Lcckyer, who moved that the ruling of the then Speaker be disagreed with, practically on the same ground, and 1nade a Ktrong- f'peech-a good speech, a relevant speech, and full of argument on the matter.

Several HoNOURABLE l\1E11BERS conversing in loud tones,

The SPEAKER: Order, order!

Mr. BLAIR: The question before the House· to-day is one of even n1ore serious nwrnent than the one he raised then, though the arguments he used then are relevar,t to the position to-day. It is idle to contend that the matter i' not one of urgent public importance-w much has been conceded. There is a motion on the paper under whicl1 the Premier is going to ask l<'ave to go South. For what? To discuss this matter of urgent public importance. He is going down there, and he is going without the inf<;rmation which a motion of this kind, properly d1scu"sed, would elicit, and which would enable him more justly to put before the c.mferet•ce the aims and ideas of members of this Hou~e. The bon. mem­ber for 'l'ownsville has stated that he does not think there are more than eight or ten men--

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Six.

Mr. BLAIR: \Vhose opinions are wortb any­thing on finance. Admitting, for the sake of argument that he is the arbiter on the question, and that his ios• dixit settles the value of the opinions of merf1bers on any particular qnestion,. whv not alluw those six or eight members to give the.ir <>pinions for what they are worth ? Why stifle six or eight?

Mr. '.V RITE: There is plenty of time.

:!\Ir. BLAIR: '.Vhat is proposed is in absolute accord with the procedure adopted inN e\v S•mth \Vales. wh'!>J Mr. \Vade tabled propm•als which wer J di, cussed. in the House ; and I say tha.t, if this ruling is follow~d, we shall be deprived of anv voice or sk1..re in di~cn."sing in a proper 1vay­on·a specific motion-pr>po.<als which should be discnssc·d befme anyone goe,; to represent ~~ueer~s­land at the fonhcoming conference. If the dls­cm;sion is brought in on a side tmck when d<<tl­ing with a differt'nt nu~,tter, it will be worthJE:·.,s, because it will be, ob>mured br othernmtters more or lt -,s irrelevant. Though [ do .so \vith a great deal of reD'ret I subn1it that your ruling is one which if ;doyJted, wiil tn a certain extent fritter away' onr privileges-will to a certain extent prevent the matter being rliscuss'd in the way in which this order, properly mterpretc-d, was specially framed to provid~. . For these reasons, if the matter goes to a drv1swn, I shal! be com­pelled to vote for the motion that your rulinv he disagreed with.

The PREMIEH: Although I do not wish to prolong this discussion, I W<!uld_inst }ike to say that my opinion of your rulmg m thrs matter-

Motion for Adjournment. [4 AUGUST.] Motion jol' Adjou?·nment. 559

or, to be more correct, your decision in this matter-will appeal to the common sense of members of this House.

Mr. SUMNER: To yourself.

The PREMIER: And to people outside of it. It will appeal to the common sense of members on both sides of the House.

Mr. J J<JNKTNSON : You are afraid of discussion.

The PREMIER: There is an allegation that there has been an attempt, or that there b an attem]Jt, to stifle diwussion on this important matter.

Mr. MURPHY: So there is.

The PREMLER : For five weeks back there is not a member of this House but has bad the most ample opportunity of discussing this question from A to Z.

Mr. MuRPHY AND OPPOSITION ME~!BERS: No, no!

The PREMIER: Anyone could have dis­cussed this question if they had wished to do so.

Mr. MANN: No. The Speaker ruled it out. The SECRETARY FOR MINES: He would never

shut down that.

The PREMIER: But it was not en that basis or that gronnd that you gave your ruling, l'd.r. Speaker. You gave your decision that there was no need to adjourn the House on this matter to­day, bec:mse members would have to-morrow most ample opportunity of discussing it.

Mr. MuRPHY: But you have decided to put on the "gag."

The SPEAKER : Order, order !

The PREMIER: No man has claimed, and no man can claim, that this matter is so urgent that to-morrow will be too late.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

The PREMIER : That is the whole case from the common-sense point of view.

Mr. JENKINSON: \Ve will have no chance to­morrow, and you know it.

1\Ir. RYLAND : There is no to-morrow.

'fhe PREMIER: The members who speak about the limitations of members' rights in this matter will see that if your decision be a bad one -if there is no check at all upon the power of six members-that is, the mover of the motion and five members who support him-if there is no check at all upnn six members who wish to move the adjourr.ment of the House and discu>s any matter, then there is no nRed of any rational attempt to carry on business in this House.

OPPOSITION 1\lEMBERR : No, no! ;\lr. HAMILTON: That is a different varn to

what yon had bst year. ·

The PREMIRR: It does nut matter who is in office, if your deci::dnn, S-ir, js a had one then any six members can n1ove the adjonrnrnent of the House and discuss any matter within the Stand­ing Orders whenever they please.

Mr. ~WooDs: Quite right, too.

The PHEMIER: They cctn do it every day if they please. 'l'he Speaker must sit. he 1plesc in the Chair, and he must see the business ob-8tructed-pnrely obstructed-by six members, who can g-et up a di>cu,sion every day and pre­vent bmine"s trom bt ing done at all.

Interjections from OPPOSITION ~MEiiiBERS.

The SPEAKER: Order, order!

The PREMIER: Tbis i' a matter which I think is much better di>cus;;ed without intPrjec· tions. Every member of this House has equal rights.

Mr. KENNA : You admit that ?

The PREMIER: And if any six members of this House have this right to interfere with the business of the House without rhyme or re~son­no reason would ha.ve to Le given--

1\Ir. HAMILTON: The r~asous are given.

The I'RE:YIIER : Merely their assertion--

1\ir. BLAIR: 'IVhy don't you answer the argu-ments?

J\Ir. JENKINSON: He cannot.

The SPEAKER: Order, order!

The PREMIER : If merely on the assertion of six membPrs uf this House they can adjourn the House day after day, how are they going to get on with busine~s when they get over here? Very often the rilen in Opposition cut a stick to break their own heads later. I venture to suggest to bon. members opposite that that is what they are rloiug to-day. They are cutting a stick which will n1ake the carrying on of the business of tbi' House an impos,ibility. That is not the case tl.at :~ppeah to me altogether. As the bon. member for Bowen pointed out., in this respect our Standing Orders are nearly the same as those of the House of Common', except with a numeric ,1 difference that there they require that forty members shall rise iu their ]Jlaces, and here we only require five members to rise in theil' places. ~\V hat do they do in the House of Com­mons under exactly the same Standing Orders ? I have here "May" for 1906, eleventh edition--

1\lr. Bowl>!AN : Chapter and veroe?

The PREMIER: Page 255. It says-In accordance therefore with this principle, when it

was proposed to call attention, on a motion for adjourn­ment, to the eoniinct of the GoYermnent in deferring a statement of their intentions regarding tl:-.e course of business, the Speaker declared that he should decline to put the motion, because it wonld anticipate an announcement of which notice had been given--

OPPOSITION J\lEl\lBER:S interjecting,

The SPEAKEJ:t: Order, order !

The PREiiUER: This shows that the SpeakeF in the Hou -e of Corrnnons has a dibcretionary power as to whether be will allow a motion for adjournment to be moved, and here is another example of the same discretionary rwwer (ln the part of the Speaker which i8 exactly on all-fours with the decision of our Speaker to-day.

Mr. LESINA : Finish the quotation.

The PRE::\IIEJ:t : It goes on-\Yhile motions for adjournment re~arding mattprs for

tbe di:scus;sion of whkh the Committee of Supply or other appointed bn~inc~s would afford au early oppor~ tunity have been ruled to be out of order.

Is there any intelligent man in this House or out of it who does not see that, "ith exactly the same Standing OrJers ~s W<:: h:"ve b,~re, the pnwtiee uf the Houoe of C' >m mons has been followed by our Speaker this afternoon ?

GoVERX>!ENT ME>IBERS : Hear, hor :

OPPOSITION i\IEo!BERS: No, no!

The PHE:VIIER: The man who says" No" to that, I think, is beynnd reason. This is exactly the reason that the Speaker g:tve.

Mr. BLAm: It is not a cc.se in point at all.

::\1r. HARDACRE: The circumstances are dif­ferent.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: You admit the Speaker has discretionary powers.

OPPOSITION :iY1Eli!BEltS : No. Mr. AmEY: The Premier denied that last

year.

Hon. W. Kidston.]

560 Motion for AdJournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion for AdJournment.

l\'Ir. HAliiiLTO~ : Read your own statement last year.

J\Ir. MGRPHY: Quote the Secretary for Mines in 1901.

The PRENI:IER: No hon. gentleman has called in question the statement tbat the matter for the discussion of which it has been sought to move the adjournment of the Hou,e can be diRcussecl amply to-morrow on going into :Supply.

:ur. HAI(])ACRJ<;: Yes, that is questioned. vVe qum:;tion it.

The PRE::YHER: No one has questioned it. l\Ir. AmEY: Yes, I question it very much. Mr. BO\nrAN: \Ve dispute anything y JU my.

(Government bughter.)

The PRE:\IIER: I. vonturc• to say that there is not a Hingle Inentber of t~i~ fi0nse who re-dly believe~ that his righto are being interfered with.

JI!Ir. Jg~KINSO~: Yes; plenty of us.

The PRK\ITSR: Then is no hon. member of this Hou'e, who horlf"'tlv believes that. [ chim that, nn the contrary, !:o nullify yoor ruling, as st>tted from the Srwaker in the ehair. all control of proct.>dnre atll1 bn.-;ine:;s in the Hous~ is T_)Ut into the hands of six memb~rs who c:w blvck bn~if!.P~K at any rnmnent tht>y wish. I beli(~ve, ~Ir. Sp~'tker, tha.t your dPci~ion is not only in acc·~rda,nce '.'-ith the con1lll('TI sense of thP itua~ tion, l•nt (}or,-, nn invalidate the individual rights of 111e1nbers in thi.-: House in the ~lightf-..t degree, Rnd it i..:, I have shown unmistakably, in accordanee with the practice in similar cases in the l-Ionse of CJmmuns.

1\Tr. .TE:'\KIXSON (Fass,fcrn): The argu­mPnt-. of ;:.he PrrnJiPr are uot only vuerile and trivial, but they show that be ba-; not the slightest knowledge nf whctt he is attempting to put b8fore :he Honse.

OrPOSITIOX ::'IIE~!BERS : He:u, hear !

:\fr. J1C'iKI:'\SON: It i., qnite a mual tbin;; for tht; PrPn 1ier, whenever he gpt:; beym~d a sub­ject t.h;:.;,t, he 1\.110>\'S no(hing R.bor:;t, to go flounder­ing ahout "'nd 1.tternpting to rn]..,lead lnt•rrtbers of the Honf=1~. fie se~-'IHS tn be afraid that the ruliug you lu,~,·e given thi~ afternoon i~ likely to leqd. to an immense r~mount of abuse. \Vhy shonld he think thn.t a, Standing· Or1if'r which has been in existenc no\Y in connect.ion with the AP3Pmbly for oYer twen~J :venr~, !l.nd h~~ never yet been alHn:;ed, i::; lilv:ly to be abused at the pre-,ent juncture, or at anv Rulm>"quent thne? He is sin11Jlv ert•cLing an _._-\unt S;;tl~y in order that he 1nay kn(J~k it do\vn, and hot\·e some apparently v did reaF:on f 1r .-;upporting the ruling you have t;iYen.

The SPJ<~AXER: Order! I think the hon. ll1P.rnber will b~ spuaking much more in :1ccord with th<: sl1irlt of a di .. cus~ion u~10Il the technical correctnes< or otherwise of the Speaker's ruling if he refrains from >tttributing motives to the hon. me1nber.

GoVEHX~rE!\'T i\IDIDERS : Hear, hear!

M:r .. JRNKT:0ISO:;\f : At the time you stonped me, Sir, I was referring to the fact th~t the Pre­mier bad been attributing motives.

0PPOSI1'IOX ',IE1rBEHS: Hear, hear!

Mr .• TBXKIXSON: And I was rebuking him for doing sn. I was not attributing rnot-ives to anyone. (Opposition hear, hearB! and Go­vernment laughter.) I was just leading up to the questinn of yonr ruling, and I atn very glad indeed, although I was the humble instrurr.ent you used, that you have administered a rebuke to the Premier for having imputed motives to members on either side of the House. I thank

fHon. W. Kidston.

you for that. \Ve are told, from the decision you have given, although you recognise, inferen­tially, the extreme urgency of the motion sub­mitted to you by the hon. member for Brisbane South, that you think an opportunity will be given to members for discussing that most urgent matter of public importance on a subse­quent ocnsion. Now, it has been pomted out by other hon. members that we have nothing to guide ns whereby we c-•n gnarantee that we are going to have an opportunity of discussing this matter at t1ll to~rnorrnw ·within reasonable lilnih1, or ttt a re,'1sonahle hour.

OPPOSITIO~ }fg}JDERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. JE~KINSO~: We know that Rule 58 i'3 as follow." :-

The right is reserved to His 3Iaj~,~ty's l\:Iinisters to place any uo1i~cs of motion or orders of the day, whet her relatin~ to Government business or not, upon the business-paper in the rotation in 'vhich they desire them to be taken on any days on which Government business has precedence.

That is the !:bmding Order under which the Guvernment ·.vill he guided in placing the ques­tion of di,cnssing Supply before this Assembly, and it i, q11it" wichin the hounds of possibility tho.t that motion will not come before us for dis­cussion nntil a, la.te hqnr to-rnorrow Pveuing, and to-n1orrow i..::: the last sitting day of the wedc. It i.-, propt~::;ed to-tnorrow, according to the business­paper, to n1ov0 that thi::; Hons,; do adjourn for nineteen da.ys, so what lJossible chance will hon. rnernbcrs haYe of di~cn~:-~ing it if the Government attempt to Lake up tha~ matter and place the order of bu.-;in':',,~_, iu such a \vny that we cannot diRCUSti thi~ rnatter until a late honr to-n1orrow evenin:;.

i\Ir. HA~l!LTOX: Ha;·e the Government the pn,yer?

:\Ir. JEC\KIKSOX: I arn not discussing the que-o:tion of wbether the (}overnntt-~'nt have the po\V~r, tecan:;e I nnderstand that they have the power. Ttwy 111ay withdtaw the question of Supply. \Ve have no guamnte that it is going to Lle 1Jlaced btfore us.

OPPOSITIOX l\IE}fflERS: Hear, hear!

:\lr. J ENKI~SO~: To-morrow afternoon will he devnted to privnte rnen1bers' buRine::~, and con~equently we cannot ~ornrneuce a discus­Rion of anv Governrnent. bnsiness until after 7 o'clock in the evening. So that not onlv is our time limited, but if the member" of thio House­whether they are cornuet•'nt to di.-cms it or 110t has nothing to do with it-ther--, rue seHnty-one 1nembers in this Hou~e representing the various constitnencies, and they have " perfect right, if they like, whether they have any kn->wledge of linance or not, to get up and speak on that ques­tion, and nobody ean challenge th"t right.

?llr. LESINA: Hear, hear ! That is why we want a definite motion before the Chamber to deal with it.

Mr. JENKINSON : I come tu this point: There is no doubt that we have an opportunity of dicicussing g1 ievances before Supply 1s granted, and this extremely important matter to every taxpayer in the State is to be obscured by other matters which may be brought before this Cham­ber. To my mind, therefore, it is absolutely necesstuy that there should be a definite and. a concrete moLinn submitted, whereby we should have full and free opportunity of discussing this particular mat,er. Although I do not intend to deal with the subject matter of the motion of the hon. member f<>r Brisbane South, I would point out that the urgency of the matter must be apparent to every member in the House, because it is not a party question. The questwn of

Motion for Adjournment. [4 AUGUST.] Motion for Adjournment. 561

adje1sting the finances &ffects every taxpayer in the Stat~:., and every repreeentative in this Cha1nber, and surely the urgency i:;; 1)lainly appau'nt when the Premier hhnself nsking this House to whole of busi-ness the days! jn order hc that notice on the cient to appeal to Chamber. As hr.c; the seo1or have

to in your WJsdr>m-and to support you-would have

was out of order. I believe that would be natural conclw<ion to come to.

Mr. HARDACRE: The Speaker did it la3t session.

Mr. JENKINS0:01 : Exactly. I believe the Speaker wn.s correc:~ in his con centi,Jn, and you, Sir, would have been correct on this occaRion, RO that nothing comes of that argument. \Ve are forced back on thb point: Are we likely to have sufficient time to discuss this exceedingly urgent matter

Mr. LESINA : If we had mfficient time, what would happen?

Mr. JENKINSON: I am not prepared to discuss that question, although I have a good many notes on it, because I am afraid I should cnme into conflict with your ruling, Sir, if I attempted to deal with it. If I understand your ruling at all, it is this : That there is a Supply Bill to be submitted to

1909-2N

this Chamber to-morrow evening, and you think there will be sufficient time between the hours of 7 aud 10 o'c!ock---

Mr. LESIXA: () o'c:ock in the morning.

Mr .. JE:\KIXSON: Our ordinary hours of sitting-roHnwing \vhat ha:; been dof1e this ses~ sion-and I haYe no rea1~on for believing that there i-s going to be n,ny altera,tion in that par­ticul8.t ru)e. I nr~derstand that you consider that between the hour;; of 7 and 10 o'clock there will

ti1ne for teventy~onH njember.s to with rAgard I o this important

htughtter.)

The SPKAKER : l to say, if I may in~drrnpt the l1<:1n. rnen:ber, when I was briv-ing my ruling I intended to r<2ad the quotation Low '· 1\Ia,y ' 1 wh·lch was re~td by the Prmnier.

Mr .• JENKlNSON: It was qnite irrelevant.

JYir. JENIClNSON: Yes, Sir.

B11rrcnvs offering to move the ad~ournment of the HOUS';:;,

The

OPPOSITION MEMBERS :

The SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker Morgan went on to refer to a still later case, when, on a motion for adjournment offered by Mr. John Redwood (\Vaterford), he refused to accept the motion on the ground that the matter it pro~osed to bring before the House was not one of definite and urgent public importance.

An OPPOSITION MEMBER : That is against your ruling.

The SPEAKER: This and the other enmple I have quoted show that the Speaker hae di<cre­tion in the matter. The eleventh edition of "May" is the very latest authority on the sub­ect. It crystallises all the precedents of the

Hon . ..J. T. Bell.]

562 Motion for Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion for Aqiournment.

House of Commons on the Hnhject, and it. embodies the whole question in that one sentence from page 205 which I have 'lunted-

Motions for adjournment regarding matters for the discussion or which the Committee of Supply or other app0inted business '''ould afford an early opportunity have been ruled to be out of order.

I therefore wish to point out to hon. n1embers that the contention that I have been making a new departure in exerciRing this discrdion on the proposal to move the adjournment of the Hou"e is not really borne out by fttct,, I must apolo­gise to tb" hem. member for occupying so much time.

Mr. \VooDs: It is for the House to decide.

Mr. JENKINSON : Personally I am thankful that you, Sir, have thought it advisable to make that lengthy Interpolation at this juncture. It is establishing a new practice that I am not at all inclined to cavil at, and I am delighted that it has pleased you to give the opinion of a pre­vious Speaker in connection with this matter. But I would respectfully point out thaL it practi­cally cuts the ground from under your own feet.

OPPOSITION >VIEMBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. JENKINSON: Because you previously admitted the urgency of this matter when you gave your ruling on another point altogether. The ruling that you h"ve read to the House dealt purely, simply, and only with matters of urgency, which the Speaker himself decided were not of sufficient public importance to be described as urgent. I do not think any member of this House, no matter which side he sits on, but will sub­scribe to the doctrine that the question that we want to discuss is of the most extreme public importance to the people of this State, It i• absolutely urgent that the matter should be dis­cussed at the earliest possible moment, and, if I am within the limits of the Btanding Orders and your ruling, if you will give me a few morr.ents to show why I believe it is urgent, I think I will convince you, and, even if you felt inclined at first to rule tht• motion out of orcler, I believe yon will alter your decision. I will go on until you say that I am out of order.

The SPJ<JAKER: May I say to the bon. member that I admit the u1 gency, and I based Iny opinion on those wordR fron1 "1\:Iay ," as an early opportunity-that is, to-morrow-is pre­senting itself for the discussion of this matter. I consider I am quite justified, on these prece­dents, in rejecting the rnotion.

Mr .• TEXKII\SOX : I thank y m, Sir. I underMtnod frorn you at the t,ime you ruse to deliver that jnr 1gment, that that \Vas yeur ruling-. Now, I deRire again to point ont-if I a\'Cnrcttely under1:1tnorl yonr ruling-tlw.t to~n1orTOW thel''' will be given to hon. rnt:rnbt>r·, an 01lportnnity to iliscuss this qnr,Rtion 'vhen ~Hl .. ..\pvrnpri ~tion Bill is brou?hG dow~. ~c\..~_;·;_:dn I deRire tn pnintout, :md emphud.<e with all the eln'luence of which I am c~pable, that to~n1orrow aftt->rnnnn will be en­tirely given up to the di:~cu~sion r.f ltrintte n1emR bers' bn~iness, and that weco.unotatten1pt to touch anv GoYernn.lent hu, ines--l until :.ftex 7 o'c~ )Ck. Fo'il:nving the pnwtice which has been adopted by the House thiR ses-Lm, I presume we shall adjourn a.t 10 or 11 o'clock. If we adjourn at. 11 o'clock, that wil! al:cnv7 only fnnr hrmrs for t:w diocuS<ion "f !his f!Ue·cti<m. Only four hour" will bn avail :ble for ~e\'enty·one member~ of this 1-Iouse to givd the euncet·tratPd u~.:;;ence of wisciom whi~h they P"""'-'" to the House and the country. Is that n r·~'a ·onable leng:h of r.in1fl for the di~cnl'sion uf ~uch ;:tll important >nbj,~e:? Do hon. rnelnhers honestly think that jc; 'uffi­cieut tirne forth~ di8cnssion of a matter which the PrHnier cnn~ide!·s E-O important that, in

f!lnn . .T 7'. ReTl.

order to deal with it, he is going to suspend the whole of the busine,s of the country for nineteen days?

Mr. WHITE: Six sitting days. Mr. JE:\KINSON: Nineteen days. The one·

man in Queensland who is running the Govern­ment of the country is going to suspend _the whole of the business of this House for mne­teen days, and I ask, in the name of all that is good and all that is true, is it reasonable to ask us to discus that matter in three or four hours? I cnntend that that is a limitation of speech which practically amount' to gagging members, who are to voice the opinions of their consti­tuents on this particular matter. It is nothing short of a scandal that be should prevent us giving utterance to our views. 'fbe Premier should, without any intervention on your part, Sir, give every opportunity for the discussion of this important question. When the hon. menl­ber for Brisbane South asked certain questions­on this snbject two or three weeks ago, the Pre­mier should have realised the urgency of the matter, and have taken the people into his con­fidence, and, if necessary, be should have got the opinions of membHrs of this House, so that he might go down to the Premiers' Conference with more confidence than he can do, if be is not assured of tbe support of this House.

The SPEAKER: Order! 1 hope the hun .. member will not continue that line of argument.

Mr. JENKINSON: No; I will not. I think hem. members know that I have been laid up,. and that for a week or so pri<.r to going to bed my bearing was affected. \Vhen I stated the· other night that I was a little deaf, you, Sir, did not seem to think th!>t I was telling the truth exactly. T therefore wish to explain now that my hearing has been very defective since I have been laid up.

The SPEAKER: I may tell the hon. member that any doubt I may originally have felt on the subject has now been entirely removed. (Laughter.)

:Mr. JE::-IKINSON : Coming back to the question before the Hou~e. I honestly and sin· cerely hope tb"'t there will be no necessity to proceed wich this motion. I would like the Pre­mier and yourself to consult together with a view to you withdrawing your ruling, and the Premie~ ~~grfeing to give us an opportunity to discuss this particular matter. I spoke on the rnotinu <ubmittcd by the bon. member for Bris­bane South last year, because I realised that the destinies of the reople of Queensland fur the next f•'W years are vitally wrapped up in tbi' ques­tion of the financial relation" between the States and the Corn men wealth. Are we to believe tlvt the p, emiel' ]JL3oeoS,'3 a monopoly of the whole nf the intelligence of thi.., H(JU~e? Seeing th et there l\aye lJt-en f,t lea~t ~1:.""\'PU ,tbnrt.ive COTI~ ference of Premit'l s, \\ onld it not havo been better to all11W Uktliber~ sufficient time to disR cu.~.s thi~ important~ tnntt"·l '? "In the multitude of councillorfi," sa-;·s the P.sa1niist, ''there is widow," and if the bon. gentleman bacl heard t~e opinions of members on this great question he wonld. have gnne down to the conference better fortifL.l than he ii:i llO\V,

The SPEAKER: Orcler! I hope the hon. n1en1L;:>r '.vill ·uot continue on that line, Lnt that he wil! din:c'.:. his renwrJ...s to the tPchtJic"tl ques­tion, winch is the subject of my ruling,

:'.fr. ,Tl:XKI::-ISO::"i': I only wanttour~eunon ynu and the Prmn~er the advisab],.neso; of giving us Rnme time to discu~s tbis matter, in order that tho>'e memb,'rs who have taken an intelli­g<·nt, u.terest in tbe que'>tion of the tinancial relations hetween the StateR and the Common­wealth may submit their views on the matter,

_i_Wotion for .AdJournment. [4 AUGUST.] Motion for AdJournment. 563

and practically strengthen the hands of the Premier when be goes to the conference. The time at our di,posal to-morrow will be of such an exceedingly limited nftture that it will be practically impossible for us to give our ideas concretely on the subject, inasmuch as some members ara bound to introduce extraneous matter. 1.V e cannot even pass a resolution to-morrow. No specific pr•Jposal can be made, Lecause we shall be subject to the Stand­ing Orders, under which the Premier and his followers can closd the debate at any particular juncture. That is a point which is likely to be lost sight of. I trust that after all there will be no necessity to go to a vote on this motion, but that the Premier will see the ad visableness of carrying out the very reasonable suggestion of the hon. member for Brisbane South, and give members an opportunity of discussing this most important question. Should the motion go to a division, entertaining the opinions I have given utterance to, I shall feel impelled very regretfully to vote in favour of the motion.

The TREASURER: 1\lr. Speaker,-! shall certainly SU!Jport your ruling, aud I think the sense of the House will be with me when we go to a division. I think you have acted entirely within your rights in ruling in the way you have done.

Mr. KER!l: He did not give a rulin!l'.

The TREASURER: If the Speaker did not give a ruling, why did the hon. member for Bris­bane Snuth move that the House di,agree with his ruling? There are two grounds upon which a motion for the adjournment of the House can be disallowed. :First of all it can be disallowed upon the ground that it is not made to discuss a "definite matter of public importance." You, Sir, are not in any way stating th<Lt the matter in respect of which it was proposed to move the arlj,Jurnment of the House is not a " definite matter of urgent pnhlic importance," and I mer~ly mention that fact to show that it is one of the grounds on which a motion can be dis­allowed. That shows that it is not an absolute certainty that if six members get up in the House they are able to brin;; on a matter, whether the Speaker thinks it shou!r1 be brou~ht on or not. But, apart from that, "l\lay "says at !JRge 2-11-

The Speaker also is bound to apply to these motions the established rules of debate-

That is another reason which the Speaker could give for disallowing this motir n--and to enforCP, the principle that snbjectl" excluded bY those rules cannot be btought forward thereon; such as a mH.ttcr under adjudication iu a, cotnt of law, or matters alre'tdy discn~·,ed during the eurrent se~sion, whether upon u previous motion for adjournment, upon a sub.:-tantrvc motion, upon an amendment, or upon an Order of the lHL~". Equally, discussion cannot be raised on a motion fr:.r adjonrnrnent on any matter alrrady appoinh:d t'or cvnsideration, or of whi<',h notke has been gi,Ten; nor cq,n exemption frolll thib rule lJe ob­tained b·, a withdrawal of snch matter from tlle notice­paper atv the commencement of the sitting on which the motion for adjournment is sought to be m·1de.

I hold th"t under that ym1, Sir, ar<> perfectly en­titled to rule a~ you did. You said that bun. mem­bPr.s \VonJd ha\'e an opportunity to-morrow on the Appropriation Bill of di,cussing tbe question uf the financial relations between th8 Common­wealth and the States. I Wo>nld point out that in addition to that they well have ample oppor­tunitv to discu~ i the matter on the mntion w hi eh is cc,ming- on as soon ~s this rnatter i~ disposed of.

:\Ir. lifcRPHY: Will you guarantee that? The TREASURER : The Premier has a

motion on the !Japer whJCh reads-That the Hmr,P, on its risin~ at the termination of the

sitting a)JPOinted foe Thursd:-ty, the 5tu iu~tant, do adjourn until 1 ntsday, the 2Jtb instant. In order to get that motion through the House

the Premier will have to give some justification for proposing it, and set out the reasons why he wants to adjourn. Hon. members know that the Premier wishes to go to the conference at Melbourne, and he will have to give a sufficient reason for going there.

Mr. \VOODS : I rise to a point of order. I want your ruling, Sir, as to whether the hon. gentleman is in order in discussing a question on the busmess-paper of the House?

The SPEAKEH : I understand that the hon. gentleman is pointing out that on a question on the business-paper for to-morrow, in his opinion, an opportunity will be given for a discussion of the question which it is considered by certain members should be di,cussed under a motion for the adjourument of the House. I therefore con­sider the hon. gentleman is in order.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

The TREASURER: I am pointing out that, in addition to the motion you speak of, as on the business-paper for to-morrow, there is a further motion on the paper to-day, which will come on immediately this present discussion is ended, which will give full opportunity for members to say whether or not the Premier is entitled to go to the Melbourne conference.

Mr. MuRPHY : That is not the question.

The TREASURER : In order to get that motion through this House, he will have to give reasons which will justify thiS House in voting him the right to go there.

Mr. MANN: Order, order! Mr. MuRPHY: The reason he will give is that

he has a majority of one. (Opposition laughter.)

The TREASURER: On that motion an opportunity of discussing the matter will be given, and material may Le elicited on that dis­cussion which may be of use to the Premier at that conference. Every opportunity will be given for that discmsion.

Mr. McLLAN: You will put the "gag' on. The TREASURER: I do not think the rights

of this Hou'e are in any way abrogated by the ruling you have given. \Ve will have the whole of to-dav and the whole of to-morrow, if neces­sary, an"d I would puint ont to hon. members that to-rnorrow's sitting can, if necessary, go right up to Saturday.

1\Ir. ,J EX KIN SON : \Vhat about the ''gag"?

The TREASURER: There is no necessity for the Thursday sitting to close at 10 o'clock. If hon. members desire to have a discussion, they can have right up till Saturday night.

Mr. BmHIAN: \Vhy adjourn the House at all?

The TREASURER: Every cpportunity will be given for the discu;sion of any facts and sng­gestionR, bon. rnembers oppo~ite, or on this side of the House, may be desirous of giving to the Premier.

.Mr. :YicHPHY: You will want to adjourn at 10 o'clock.

Several HoxOURABLE J'viE}!BERS interjecting,

The SPEAKER: Order, order!

The TRJ<:AS1:rRER: I think you, Sir, h"'·e acted entirely within your discretL:m, and your discretion has been rightly exercised, and I ;hall certainly support your ruling.

i\Ir. BO\DIAN: \V e could not expect anythi1og else from you.

Mr. MANN: It is always a matter of regret when a Speaker's ruling is di,agreed to, and I should feel a good deal of reluctance in voting for the motion moved by the junior member for

Mr. M ann.]

564 Motion for AdJournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion for AdJournment.

South Brisbane, unless I was clearly of the opinion that he was right in challenging your ruling. To r~ Speaker who has the confidence of the House, [ think it would seldom or never arise durill[( his tenure of office, that hi8 ruling should bE- c.lallenged. But I can quite imagine a Speaker ;a the House being a mere,tPol in the hands of the Government. He may give his ruling at the dictation of the Government, and under those circumstances I think the House, in order to preserve its privileges, would be well advised to challenge hi8 ruling on every occasion in which they thought it was given ut the dicta­tion of the Government. I do not wish to insinuate for one moment that you, Sir, are doing so in this House, but when I heard the arguments advanced to-night from the fcont Treasury bench, favour of upholding your ruling, I had to that I never be:<rll the Premier to less than I heard him this afternoon. lie got Ul' and sought to convince members on this side of the Rous·~\ and on his own side, that your ruJing does not in any way curtail the right11 of members of this Ifouse. And he sctid in the ruling you had given you were following the preccd,.nts of the House of Commons. I would just like, for the informa-tion of hon. and for your information, to quote the Prenlier gave la~1t year in regard tn had in tbe matter of be the> alleged that had last House

carrying on a nn1•nr.selless House. I have nu reason to think tbat the Premier was less acute in his judgment last year than he is this year. The position has changed. At that tin1e, to suit the purpose of his argument, he alleged that six members at any time could move the adjournment of the House. I am inclined to think that the Premier was right. That six members at any tirue, if an hon. rnembrr can convince five other members that the matter he is bringing before the House is one of urgent public business, then this House should be adjourned to allow nf that urgent public bnsinees being discussed. You, J'vir. Speaker, may claim that the Speaker should be the judge of every­thing, and just to show you that that is not so, I may mention that I had a private conversation with your predecessor, the late. Hon. John Leahy, over the m"'tter of moving the adjourn­ment of the House, to call attention to the fact that a certain loan had not been given to the Cairns Shire Council for the purpose of rail· way construction. He asked me "was it a matter of urgency," and I claimed that it was, because the rails would be landin!l" in a few days, and the council could not take delivery of the rails bought for the tramline unless they had the money to pay for them, and the rails would be left on the wharf until such time as the shire council had the money. Mr. Speaker, I, in that case, was the only judge of the urgency, because I was the only member of the House, perhaps with the exception of the Premier and the Treasurer,

[Mr. Mann.

who knew how urgent the matter was, and I convinced five members on this side of the House that my case wl.ts an urgent one, and in that case, the Speaker said he would allow me to move the adj:oumment of the House. Fortu­nately I had not to do so, becau.se, owing to pressure b::ing brought to bear, the Treasurtr yielded, and grc>nted that loan.

Mr. MAXWELL: You did not know it had been granted.

Mr. MANN : I went to the Treasurer and told him distinctly that if the loo,n was not granted the adjournment of the House would be moved.

Mr. MAXWEU : That will do.

'rhe SPEAKER Order, order !

Mr. MANN: If, as the Premier has claimed to-night, and you have ruled, you are to be the sole judge of urg•,ncy in this mcttter, as I daid earlier in the evening, if a Speaker is entirely dominated by the Govermnent, it might mean that no matter distasteful to the Government could be discus,ed in tbis House at all. Th~ Government refuse to answer CJU'cstions, and if a Speaker, dominated by the Government, rdu,es to allow the llouoe to di~cu&s an urr;ent public 1na.tter, then private rnembers-in fact, the leader nf the Opp:1dtion, backed by his party, if he h~ in a n1inori ty-'-cannot any rrJatter of

importance, by the ccmsent ; <lnd, so, it. entirely House ti1e right of free

rrction:-:. 'rhe Go* immigration,

" tbe disappro-were known <:tnd

a. uestion to

this to riiscu~s thr~se

you (jUoled some [5·30 p.m.] your predece,sor

in 1'\ir Morgan. I ad-mit that on one occa,ion he refu,;ed to allow the hon. 1nen1ber for Lockyer to rnove the adj,Jurn~ ment; and I will qth;te the reaEon he gave. This will be found on rncge 17$JG of Hcmsard for 1901-

The SPEAKER: I beg to to the House that I have received i.he follovving letter the hOlJ. mem-ber for Lockyer

7th November, 1901. The Honourable Art bur ~Im·ga.n,

Speaker's Rooms, Parliament House.

Mr. SPEAKER,

I beg to give you l10tice that it is intention to, on \:Yednesday, 1i5th Xovernber, move adjourn-ment of the House upon a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely-'l'he action of the Lands Depnrtment ~<vhen, in throwing open to selection cqrtain land~ in the Burnett district, in tbe parishes of }fon­dure and }1cEuen, the said lands were not proclaimed open to agricultural homestead 1wovisions oi the Land Act of 1897.

Your obedient servant, W, DRAYTON AR~ISTROXG.

This is not a matter on which, having regard to all the circumstances, I think tbe adjournment of the House ought to be moved. It is not a definite matter of urgent publit\ hnport~mce such as is contemplated by the 130th Standmg Order. I understand the lands re­ferred to in tbe hon. member's letter are to be thrown open to selection next month. Quite apart from all considerations as to the definiteness and urgenoy of the question proposed to be raised, there was ample oppor­tunity for the hon. member to take the ordinary course of proceeding by notified motion. The time allotted by the Sessional Order for the consideration of private business on Friday next, the 15th instant, on which day notices of mot1on will take precedence, was

Motion for AdJournment. [4 AUGUST.) Motion for Adjournment. 565

unappropriated up to the meeting of the Honse this a~ternoon, and i~ still nnappropriated, and was at 1 he d1spo~al of any me_;nber who desired to bring any questiOn forward. tnder these cirenmst~lnce:_,;, I think the motion for adjournment ought to be refused.

I\fr. Speaker Morg"n ruled that the matter was not one of urgent public importance; but you hav<> not ruled to that effect this afternoon. I thin~ the reason you gave for refusing to allow dis­cus~JOn was,_ that we would have ample oppor­tunity to d1.scnss the matter on a 1nntion to suspend the Standing Orders to go into Com­mittee of Snrpiy .. I think that you, as well as every other mtelhgent membet·, will admit that the liiO':>t _Hnpor.tant public que~;tion ~t the prFsent tnne Is the adjustment of the financittl relations between the Common­wealth "nd the States ; and, as an old member of this Hon.;e, it will be within your n1ernory that often on the 111otion to sus­p_end the Standing Orders to allow an Appropria­tiOn Bill to go tlu o·.:gh all its stages ;., 0'18 day, each and every member may ventilate little parochial grievances. And if the Government do not wish to hf ar anything said on the finan­cial relation.< between the Commonwealth and the States, they may agree with their supp~rters to get u~' and tai!r at inordinate lergth, over any petty gnevancP, m order· to prevent f11'l discus­sio'! on the most imp•Jrtant q 11estion of the day. It 1s well known that there are only a few men1ter.s who can discns.s the questiOn in the way it ?ught to b<e discllssed; but, as the ~retd!Pr 1s utterly unable to reply to the criti­CI~ms J)a~:;:wd on nim by the jnni1lr men1ber for Sonth Bnsbane while discu.•··-ing the no confid­ence motion, the Government do not want this m~tte~ brought forword. And if we had " pro­mrse '!Ignetl by yourself and the Premier that we would have an opportunity ,,f discnssino- this matter on the motion for tbe st1spension Zf the Standing Orders:, we have lli) guarantee that me1.noers on the other side will n0t speak at in­ordmate length until the time for reporting is past,, _and the:> the debate on this most impor'ant flUt?Stton would not appH:lr in HrJ,nsard or in the daily Press, and people outsicle would have no oppor_tunity of seeing what policy the Premr<:r mtended to purs11e in i\Ielbourne in urging the claim:~ of the State. I think it has bem ck<trly 'hnwn by the hon. member for F_assifem. that it is impm,sible to get time to d1scuss thm Important quPstion except by means of the motion proposed by the hon. men1ber for ~outh Brichane, and I think you would he wi>e ~f you were .to withdraw your 1·nling and u~e your mfluence wrth the Prrmit'r to allow a day to be set asrde to discuss the matter in all its bearings. {Gon'nlln~~nt laughter.)

0PPOSITIOX ::\lE>IBEHS : Hear, hear !

The SPEAKER: I hope the hon. member will keep entirely to the te0hnical aspect of the question before tl:e House.

:\fr. :\I AT\ X: I am keeping to the question as ?tosely ~~ I cn.n, :\fr. S12~nker. _Though I called

Order three or four t1n1es wln1e thP- Treasurer was ,...peaking, he went on dea1in!5 with rnod;ters that had n0 ben ring on th8 qtle;;;~,inn; and if one member i' allowed t" strav aw:.v it tends to encourage other metnbers tO do t}~~ same thing. I have alwa.y:-; ~.tnck up in thiR If(mse for bein-g allowed to clo ex;wtly as any other member has been allowed to d''·

The SPEAKER: Tbe TreasUJer, whe!her C'Jrrect or nnt in his interpreta'ion of the t:ltand­ing. Order, did not say anything that was not entu".Iy apr·opos of the point nf order.

I\Ir. :\IAN:'J: I was listening very carefully to the Treasurer; and you will purdon me for saying that, if my ears did not decei re me, he devoted

half the time he wa,, on hie feet to d~aling with a measure on the busine:;;s papPr and assuring us that under the,t nw tsnre we would hare ample time to discuss this matter. I do not wish to get into conflict with vou, :Mr. Speaker, for obvious reasonfl. Your" good :;;ense will make you understand that I do not wish in any shape or form to be unruly when I have no reason to be so. OPPOSITIO~ ME}lBEilS' Hear, h"ar l Mr. MAN;:\: But if I think I have jnst rea­

son to go against your ruling, whatever rr1ay be the consequence, I will have no hesitution in doing so. You have bean fair this af~ernoon, aml I intend to ob,erve y<>ur ruling and keep as closely as I cm to the qutction. If the Premier's ruling that he attempted to give thi'l afternoon was correct-th(tt if six members of this House were allowed to get up and moYe the adjqurn­ment of the House no bu~inrss could be done, and a vigilant and active Oppositiun would, every sitoing d"y, get up and move the adjourn­ment of the Honse in nrcler to obstruct Govern­ment business. Now, I claim that though this Opposition is active enough- wP havA been blamed by the morning· IJress with b ·ing malig­nant-I ask :yo1J. t,o cast yonr memory back nver last session and this ~Gss:ion, and Ask yourself if 've liave availed ourselvPo;; of th~ privi!Pge of rnO\·intr the adjournment of the House. It was moved 011ly upnn two occasion:-:.

The SPEAKER : Order! I really think that the bon. memb<>r's remarks have not.hing to do with the question before the House.

Mr. MAJ'\X: I am pointing out that we have in no way unduly hampered Government busi­n' e' by moving the adjournment of the House. That has been done only upon two occasions­upon rnre occasions-and you must admit that upon thic~ C'Ccasinn the matter hM been a very urgent one, and I need only refer you to the fact that your predecessor thought that e\·en when the expiry of the Braddon clause was twelve months further off than it is now, tlnt it was of sutficient importance to a11ow the hem. member for South Bri,-bonf' to move the adjournment of the Houc<e and discuss the matter of the financial relations between the Commonwealth and the States. Now, I have no wish to unduly prolong this d"bete.

A GovERX)!EXT 1\lmrmm: Go on.

I\Ir. l\IANN : :!\' o : I have no desire to do so. But certnin quotations have been given this even­ing in this Hon.'e in which it was attempted to shnw that in the HmBe of Cmmnon'' the St,eaker is the judge of the matter of urgency. I would just like to show that that is not >O, and the <(uotntion I shall give is one given by a late Speaker, Sir Alfred Uowley, a man whose know­ledge of the Standing Orders I sc::trcely think anyone will question, ftnd he gave thiR quotation during a debate in 1001. You will find this on page lSOO of Jiansard for 1901, in Sir Alfred Cowley's sprech. He ''aid-

Tllere 1vas another sug-gestion, that a mujority of the Hon~e should decide it, antl also fixing the number of memhPr~ reqnired to form a. quorum »Bd not a11 nbso .. lnte majority of the House; bnt both those snggf'~tions were ab:mtloued. and the practic,, "\Vas adopted of placing absolutely nnd•nnconditionally in the bands of fortY m em hers of the Ilonse of Commons the right to say '"het her a question wns :m nTgent one or \Vlwther it was not,, 'fhat Stan11ing Order was ])2-'ilREr'l. in lbe Honse of Commons in 188~, and from 1882 right on through fL series of ;p-'ars tlmt practice was ab~olutely adopted and. follmYed without any varintion. Even as late ,l'-' 15398, in the Honse of ('ommons, and on several occasions sin<'f', tbat 1vas the llrocedurc. On 3rtl Jiarch, 1893, l\Ir. Russe~l, member for t:;outh 'ryrone, rose iu his viacc-" and a:-:,ked lcnxe to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public i.rr,portance . . . . .

Mr. Mann.]

566 Motion for .Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion 'for .Adjournment.

"Mr. SPEAKER called on those members who sup­ported the motion to rise in their places, and not less than forty members having accordingly risen,

":\·Tr. SEXTON: On a point of order, I \Yish to ask whethe1·, h::tving regard to the statement or the learned judge cited in the House to-day, that the nrnount or crime in Co::mty Clare during the last year was less than in the preceding year, and having regard also to the statement . . . . this is such a 'definite matter of .mblic importance' as can be properly dis­cussed on ~motion for the adjournment of the House.''

This was the Speaker's reply. Now, mark this-

If ~'fr. RPEAKER: That is a nutttPr which is entirely within tlle discretion of hon. members who may choose to support the hon. membm '::; proposa18."

That is how it is laid down clearly in the House of Commons, tlmt a matter o( urgency was decided by the nnmber of membPrs who rise to support the member moving the motion for adjournment. I think that that appeals to the CJmmon sense of every member of this House, because if a matter is tridal, or if it is ridicu­lous, or if it is fooliob, how can any one member get five other members to support him in moving the adjournment of the Honse? If it were a foolish motion, it would make the members sup­porting it a laughing-stock. The number of members who have to rise in the House of Com­mons to support the mover of the motion is forty, but it is impossible to get forty member.s to rise here unless they are followers of the Government--

An 0PPOSITIO!'> MEMBER: There are not forty followers of this Government. (Laughter.)

Mr. JENKINSON: There are 600 members in the House of Commons.

Mr. MANN: Y cs ;. 672 members. As it is utterly impo5Bible to get forty members in this House to snpport such a nwtion, it is wise to limit the number who h"'ve to rise in their seats to five. To my mind it is perfectly clear that in doing that-in putting that number in the StanJing Orders-thJS Houee decreed that with these six members should lie the decision as to whether the matter was of urgent importance or not. Sir Alfred Cowley then s:tid-

What can be plainer than that? 1\.lr. BJ<::.I.L: \Vhat date is that? HoN. A. S. COWLEY: 1893, in ~ir. Speaker Peel's

time. The reason why I have quoted it is to show that rightaway from 1882 to l"m:i t11at wns the practice adopted m the House of Commons. If fortv members rose in their place 10 snpporta motion for adJournment of the IIow~e, the Sveaker immediately put the motion, and :;;tated distinctl.Y that they were tlle whole ~md sole judges of urgency.

That shows plainly to my mind that in exercising your rights as a t'peaker this aft~rnoon you erred against the best traditiuns of the British House of Commons.

Mr. LESINA: He has not said that this case i,,, not an urgent one. That is not the point.

Mr. ;\fANl'\ : I know that the Speaker did not ~ay that this CRse was not an urgent one. He said it was an urgent one, but he refused to allow the adjournment for the reason, he says, that we have plenty of time to discuss it to-morrow, and he arrogates to himself in this case the right to say whether it is urgent or not. He says that it is urgent, but not Bufficiently urgent to discuss it to-day, but you can discuss it to-morrow.

Mr. AIREY: He fixes the date of the urgency.

Mr. MANN: If he gives this House a guarantee that we can discuss it to-morrow, then I do not think thRt I will c"'vil ac his decision. But the order of the business Ji~g with the Minister, and the Speaker has no control over the business-papAr, and so, to-morrow, the Government may come clown with some other

[Mr Mann.

motion and entirely defeat any discussion UJ"On an important matter such as this. They might apply the •• gag'' and "guillotine" to-morrow. We can get no assurancE' from the Speaker that they will not do so.

Mr. KERR: They are going to do it all right.

Mr. MAXN: It lies with fhe Speaker to say whether a matter has been sufficiently discussed. :Members can understand that no Speaker will want to remain longer th:>u he pr ssihly can in the chair, "'"cl the Spr>aker may be guided by his own physical di-comfort when he is deciding whether the question has been sufficiently dis­cussed ; and, "'' he may wish tu get out of the chair, he may decide thnt the m<tt.er has br en sufficiently discuS<erl. ]'or that reason I do not want to trust myself either in the hands of the Spea.ker or the Government. I claim that the whole of the traditions of the British Houqe of Commom, :tnd the whole of our Standing Orders, as laid d.J\vn in the quotation which I gave, show tha' ic is left in the hands of the six wem­bers who rise in their places wholly and solely to say whether the matter is of urgent public im­portance or tJO". As I said earlier, I very much regret having to disagree wilh your ruling, but I think that If you are to be the sn]e judge of urgency it wilt'very seriously cnrtail the rights and privileges of members oi this House, and I shall be reluctantly compelled to vote against your ruling if a division Is called.

:\Ir. HARDACRE (Leichhardt): I believe that in matters concermng the Standing Orders of this Horusc, members should rise above all party c-Onsiderations.

Or POSITION .iY1E:UBERS: Hettr. hear!

Mr. HARD ACHE: No matter what side of the House we are on, or however it may affect the int<ert'••ts of parties, we sho·uld con­sider that one of the supreme things of this House for the protection of members is the maintaining of the Standing Orders of the House. During the discu'"·ion that has been going on, I have been trying to find my way to a c-anclusion that would satisfy my own 1nind. I agree with you, t'ir, in the mai:r: of your contention, and I beiieve you are nght in following the procedure Df the House of Commons. and also the procedure of this House in the past. with regard not to the question of urgency--not to the questwn of the importance of the matter, but to the t1me when the urgent matter of importance 1s dis­cussed. I believe you are also right-i11deed it has been made clear this afternoon that whilst that discussion, within the limited de­gree rests wilh yourself, it certainly does not rest with the majority of this House. It only r<:>sts between yourself and the five mem?ers of this House who rose in their places w1th re­gard to the bringing for:varcl of '!- motion for adjournment on what tlley consider matters of urgent public importance. This seems to me to exclude the two reasons laid down, one by the Premier and one by the Treasurer. The Premier said that if we allow five members to rise in their places and move the adjournment it would lead t-a chaos.

l\Ir. ArREY: It never has done in this House.

:\Jr. HARD ACRE: That is not the ques­tion. I admit it never has, but whether it would or not, our Standing Orders give the five members the right t-a rise in their places.. It is clear that private members have the nght to rise in the House and movG the adjourn­ment of the House, even though it means the delay of Government business. I think a perfectly good reason has also been made

Motion for LldJouJ•nment. [4 At:GUST.] Motion for Adjournment. 567

'1l.pparent, that it would not be in the in­terests of the public to allow a majority of the Government to prevent a matter of urgent public importance being raised for discu"sion in this House. As has been laid do;, n on one occasion, it might be the question of the reprieve of a man condemned tc be hanged, a.nd some Government majority might prevent its discu'.,ion, if we allowed the Premier's reason to be arlmitted as a good reason that five members should not have the right to move such motions by risin7 in their places. The Hon. the Treasurer said tha.t we haYe this afternoon, on the motion already announced by the Premier, to move the adjournment, to ·discuss this question, but I would like to call attention to the words of the re elution. Th<e resolution draws att€'ntion to the ur-rent need for setting- apart a clay for the disc.u··,ion of the financial relations between the States and the Commonwealth. Now, if the Trea.surcr's reason is a. good one, his majority could pre­vent us discussing that particular matter.

Mr. BowMAN: \Vhich they ha ye done in the past.

Mr. HARD_\CRE: Yes. Those tw<J rea­scns are not good.

The TREAScRER: You have already lost two hours.

Mr. HARD ACRE: It was pointed out that vou should allo'.v the discussion within certain limits. Those limits are laid down in May, on page 255-

In accordance, therefore, with this principle,·when it was propo~ed to call attention, on a moti'Hl for adjoun1meut, to the tfllHlnct of tllc G-orenuuent. ill deferring,\, statement of their intentions n•;;ardin~· ihe cotnse orbusiuf'l;;b, the Speal\ex dechlred th-at he should declLI£ to put the motion, because it would antic\patc an announcement of which notict~ had been given, while motions for adjmunment regarding !;Jatters for the dbcu:--.,ion of wllieh tbe Committee of Supply or other appointed business would a11'orc1 an early oppor­tunity havt;; been ruled to be GU~ of ordt~r.

If the present circumstances were on all-fours with the circumstances laid down in ":!\lay," I would agree with your ruling.

Mr. J ENKINSOK: They are not anal060Us.

Mr. HARDACRE.: The whole question, to my mind, is a question of fact---,Jwther to­morrow we have an early opportunity of dis­cussing this matter. \Ve have not even had this motion discussed. because the motion is that the House be adjourned for the purpose of urginf{ the nece ,sity of setting· apart a sepa­rate clay for the discussion of the financial relations between the State and the CJmm<Jn­wealth.

:Mr. JENKINSON: The Premier wants the House to adjourn to-morrow.

Mr. HARD ACRE: Now, if we had ample time to-morrow for discussing this matter, and then setting aside a. day, I think your ruling would be right, but we know that the leader of the House has alreadv announced that he will move to-morrow night that we adjourn for nineteen days. 'i'ho motion comes on to-day, but the majority can exclude us from coming to this particular resolution which the hon. member for South Brisbane has the right. to bring before the House. If they bring· the motion this afternc·on, and carry it this afternoon, despite what you say about to-morrow's Supply, our opportunity will be gone. 'We will h-tve no opportunity of discussing the question if to-day we res<J!ve that to-morrow we shall adjourn. \Ye will have no opportunity Df setting aside another

day for discussion of this matter after to-day if we decide to adjourn to-morrow for three weeks.

The SECRETARY FOR ~liKES: The motion is that the House discuss the financial relations between the States and the Commonwealth.

Mr. HARD ACRE: That is not the motion of the hon. member for Brisbane South. The question is not that we discuss the financial relatior:s-th€ qtwstion is that we have a. sepa­rate day for discussing the financial question.

Mr. JENKINSON: The urgency of fixing a da.y.

Mr. HARDACRE: Yes;.and the whole ob­ject behind that motion has rderence to the special political circumstances of the State at the present time. The leader of the Govern­ment is going to adjourn the House for three \Yetks in order to go to the Pren1iers' Con­ference. and they only have a majority of one. He has gone do"'n there year after vear "·ithout result, and, under these circum­~tances, there should bc set aside a sp.-cial day to discuss this matter, with the view of giving definite instructions from the momhcrs of this 1-lmtse. That is the ulterior purpose behind the resolution. Technically, we have the right and the power to-morrow. but prac­tically we have no opportunity to discuss that matter to-morrow on the question of Supply. Therefore, Dn these grounds, I an1 in favour of the m<Jtion. I think the circumstances are noL on all-fours with those laid d<Jwn in '' l\1ay'' ; in other 'vords, there is not ~n adequate opportunity to-morrow;-thero w1ll not be sufficient time, and even Jf there was sufficient time we ahould have anticipated the power tc> •.et aside a sopa.raie day by resolving that the House adjourn for three weeks. If we reS<JlY<e that the House adjourn for three ,,-.eeks. how can wo to-morrow pa.ss another resolution? The two resolutions would be contradictory. \Ve would have to ':ndo to­morrow what V."{) have doi>e to-day. rhere IS

not an opportunity for discuoiing this matter. ;\1r. HAMILTON: N'o time to discuss anything

at all to-morrow.

Mr. IIARDACRE: There will be no time.

Mr. BowMAN: \Vhy shouid he go, any way? Mr. HARD ACRE: For these reasons I shall

have to vot8 for ihe motion that your ruling be disagreed with.

Mr. COY?\E (Warrego): I desire to give, in as few w0rds as I can, n1y reasons

[7 p.m.] for Yoting against your ruling, Sir, on this occasion. After

listening to the speeches which have been made, I have not quile grasped really what the ruling is that you have given. I haYo heard some hen. members contend that you agree as to the urgency of the n:'otion submitted by the h•)n. member for Bns_ba:'e South while others tell us that vou admit 1ts importance only. I am rather' inclined to think that vou believe in its importance, but not in its urgency, because, if you believe in its urgency, then you would have allowed it to b~ brought on immediately, instead of saymg that it can be discm.,ccl to-morrow. As to postponing it until to-morrow when an.Appro­priation Bill ''ill be broug·ht down, It must be patent to any person that there will be no opportunity for dealing in a sensible mam':er with this important question on an.Appropna­tion Bill. Everv hen. member has the right, when an Appropriation Bill is brought in, to discu •s all his grievances. This question is of sufficient impoTtance to have claimed the

Mr. Coyne.]

568 Motion for AdJournment. [ASSEMBLY.] .ZJ,fotion for Adjournment.

attention of all the Premiers in the Common­WAalth for the pa ,[ nine years, so that it can­not be expected that it can be dealt with in a sensible manner, and that the House can come to. a ;:...:_.n -.ible conclusion, on an Appropriation BtlL It cannot be adequately discussed unless a CGi cain time is set apart bv the House for its discussion. I haY€ heard various authorities quoted, and, after listening to those authori­tieo, I have come to tho conclusion that your ruli11g was not a. good one, and that it \Vas

not in accordance with pro, cclent. V>o have pr'-'c .. :dents of our own to ~-ovcru the actions of the Speaker on ,'uch matt<'rs as th;s, and I think you have go:Je agaimt the rulings given on preYious occa~io11s. The 'l,rcaFurer quohd some aLtthorities for your guidance, Sir, but I do not think they ''ill guide you vory n1uch, bt ··;au·: .. ·, although he rrmv have dBlvod dc{'p dm.n in~,o the recesses of t, :\fay" for thorn, they do nnt apply, as we have pre­cedents of our own to guide us, and all these things are COYL reel by our Standing Orders, 'fhe authorities quot<d by the Premier and the Treasurer al'D not applicaicle to the quu­tion W<" are ckalincr with at the presc•nt time. They referred to casu where an Opposition or some section of the HoHSe tried to take th<' business out of the hands of the Go,-ernmcnt. That is not the ea ,e in this in•tance, or, if it is, then CY c;"-'Y arnendn1cnt 1noved 'in a Bill by a member of the Opposition is also an att<empt to take the busines" out of the hands of the Government. Bnt that, is not so, nor is it so regardecl, and ncith0r \s thP motion proposed by tho hon. n1cmber for Brisb1nc ~outh an attempt to take the businu,s out of the hands of the Governmcn:. On the other hand, it was intended to a'-;:-;i:,t the Govcrn1nent--to assist the> Pr<emicr, 'if n<:'CC:,;_,ory_ or assist 'ivhatc \'Or delegate may be sec1t to }Jolbou--ne~if any i•, to bo scnt.

1Ir. I{~_x:-JA: Tlwy will not take assistance­that is the trouble, They scorn it.

Mr. COYl-JR: No. If the matter is deferred until to-morrow, we shall han' two or three motions crowcl<:'d 011 top of each other, and it will be in1pOHib1c to discuf.:s the question in a scnsiblu rnanncr. I disagree 1vlth the bon. membLr for I cichh::1rclt in one thing. I under­stood the hon, member to eav that ho thov::;ht it was the ccr-rcc1; thing to \~C' ~ p011 .- r in 1h} hands of tho Spf•aLC'r to say 1'.-h{1 thcr a rnattcr is or i,- not. one of urgont public ir11portanr'~· I do not. think it woulrl be \Vi;,t? to YPst such a po\vcr in th hands of an:v Speaker. \V c can take a ca~e li 1 P thj,;;;: Ill thi.s J-Iou-"-- there aro so many political shufrlc J that o:lC' neyer knows 1 ~·hc) 1vill L:_• in the Sp( tker: chajr in a short time. \Ve "'ill ·av that there is a genHral election in a. n1-onFh or a couple of monthA, and that, v hen the fiou.sc n1ects again, some other n em her is appointed to fill the chair. He may ln vc been a :\lil,i,ter, a.s you rcccEtly \\'01'< : e:nd, if this power \Y(~re vested in the ho.nch of tlt0 Sp,·akcr, he vvoulG bo al--·lc to refu d? to a 1:ow Unv n1erDber, or an; ~~x n1eml ,,rs, to discuss tl~e ma.la.dminis~ tration of the department lw had j·,st lf'ft. So you S{'·e -,·hat a Yery vicious an(_l d2 .... n~"erous power it vvonlcl place~ in thE_' hands of a Speaker. I do not kno1· 0f anv au~hori-tv nr of any Standi:J,<, Order of th;," Honce Dr of the Ho1.:·-e of Con1n1o11 vvhlch uin"s such a power to the 8·1l•aker. So far as~ I have boPn able to discover--and I havE' lookc,l into the matter~such a power is not vesh:•d in the Speaker of am Parliament, in the British Dominions, and I hope it will bo a long Jime bdore su~h a power is so vested. I regret very much the ne,eossity for disagreeing with

[Mr. Ooyne.

your ruling, Sir. It would be far better if the House could carry on amicably with the Spnaker, in·)toad of h:tving to disagree with his ruli11gs; but we know that, if an hon. member thinks himself ag"neved by a clcci­siou of the Spc~lccr, he, is justly entitled to moYe that hi,, ruling be dioagreed with, and test the feelirw of the House on the matter. I ara Yery sor~y that the occ.l.sion has arisen for puUi11g us to thi', t''st. However, I con­scicutiously bolicYe that your ruling is wrong, and that it ,, ould be establishing- n bad pre­ccclrnt if we unhold it, anrl for that reason I intend to .-ote 'for the motion moved by the hon. nlCntbor for Brisbane South.

Mr. FORSYTH (Jio1'•lcn): Personally, I seo no rea'.'Jn .,8h ,' we t..tnnot discuss the question of Federal end Scate finance on the propos8cl adjournrn nt of the House till the 24th instant, \Y c o.ll know that the Pr0mier prvpo?:e·~ to go to the Pr-ciniBr::.' Conference­to protect H.e intemsts of this State as far as possible, and the wlwlo qeestion of the rela­tions batwPen the States and the Common­' eallh can be raised when tho motion for the spec'al adjournment is before the House. The object of a.djourning the House is to allow the Premier to go to J'.'Iolbourne to discuss that Yery question; and. that bcin<; so, I fail to sc0 that th 're is anything in the Standing Ordors io prevent n1e111bcrs frorn discussing the financial oucstion D'i soon as the motion for acljournnwt~t is 'ubmtttecL

JHr. :i.IHEY: The Gov,_>rmncnt may fold their arms. say nG~hing, u_cl Inake absolutely no proposaL

:'Ir, FOHSYTH: The hon. member knows as '''ell as I do that when the qu<'stion IS

before the Hous,' they must say something. OPPOSITIOX :\IEiiiBERS: N 0, no!

:\Ir, FORSYTII: They are not likely to pro, pose to adjourn the HousP for a fnrtmghi; without giving f,·>n1e roason for that proposal.

ThP Pn1 :'1-IIE:t~: In any case that won't pro~ Yent the Opposition expressing their views.

::\1r. Fom:;YTH: 2\o, it will not. When reasons are given for tho proposed adjourn­ment, the rhole question will be raised, and it can bo fullv disc 1uod. At anv ratP. I kno\..­of no StanJ~~lg' Order which ,,~oulcl preclude any rncn1bcr £fon1 discub-;lng it. Under these circun1 .tanc?s, l t.hink the hon. ill(lnbcr for l3ri~bano 8outh v,,)u]d be wise if he ,vithdrew his rnntion, an cl allo\Yed the bu ~,ine ,s to pro­ccccl, becaus' as f'oon as .it i> disposed of wo shall ha :c ,, motion · ubmitted on which he can di 2ms the LJLW lion of Federal and Stato financ{;s '\Ve have no\v been talking from half-p1"t 3 till a quarter past I o'clock, and it is about tin;c that we proc-~eded wilh busineDs. If I atu rong .in my opinion that the question of th,_· fly l.H(:ial relat-ions between tho States and lhe Co-,mom\2alth ca,n be discu"cd on th<:' motion of which the Premier ha" given notice, I shall bo glad £m' any hon. member to corr-ect me.

~VJ:r, :\HTCHELL (.1lr;J'ybor011(!h): A pro­no~al to disan-ree with tho Speaker's ruling ~s one that denmnds the graYC'st con:.oidera~ tion. bnt I am vcrv c,•rtain that the hon. rne1nber for Bri:-~anC 8onth \vould not have propose:] hi, motion unles, he f<'lt justified in doi~~'1" ~0. r_rhe hon. DVJlnber for ~foreton has tried t~ iGdnce meml1ers to di cuss the very important matter of the financial re!Dtions br twecn the States and the Commonwealth on the :notion that is likelv to come on after this matter is disposed of. · I understand that

Motion for Adjournment. [4 Al'GUST.] II!Iotion for AdJournment. 56(}

it is the desire of the hon. member for Bris­bane South that we should not discuss such an important n1atto?r in a df'stdtory rnannc':', but that we should be prepared to bring it to some concrete "o that the Premier, or anyone who may sel(;ctcd to repre~~?nt Quec- n_,land at the Prc nicr-' Conference will no~ ?nly nprc;sL'nt hi~ own opinions, bu't. the oprmons of l no Parha_,JOnt of Queenslancl. For th.tt re·son he suggested that a dav should be set apart for the discussion of th;, matter. You. Sir, ag-roecl that the matter was urgent, but ·'·.id th·,_t it migl-:t be dis­cussed to-morrow. Tho very same objection appla's to that coursB as I have iiJc1icated with regard to tLe proposal of the hon. member for :Morcton--nameh-. that such a discu~sion \Yould be r1osult,or\'. and that at the enc! 9£ it: it woui.d b~ imPossible to gain any d,·hmte mfor:rcatwn that would be avail­able for the go ntleman who is to represent Quf-1 ~~·:nsland at the conLrQnCP The Prmnier referred Lo the corrunon-senso viaw of this matter. If ,,-e look a~ precedents we o.hall find that they arc not at all tim~s ex;ctlv ':Yhat vve \\.tnL \Vc arc hero as mcn1bcrs 0£ Parliarnent discnssing a matt'-r in connection vvith <:'" cornpara.tivoly new State, anU \YO ~xant to btn!d up ;Jrcccdcnt-, of our own. \Ye want to feel that '> D aro rc~p!:;:nsibk., for th0 action we take in mat.t_ rs of this kincl. and, if we take the connnon-<.:<;nse YiCIY of thiJ rnatter, we shall find tint WD aro jmtified in opposing your ruhng, brcau.se, nob:vith~tanding the statement of th,, Premier that there is a pos.-;;ibility of six ITIC'In}1crs taking control of the Hous,•, .ar,cc1 forcing motions throu:;h the H~us~, I ~hn! the con1n1on scn~_,u which pre­vmls m thrs House would at all times prevent anything of th~t kind oc·curring. \\.,e have never had an 111:-::itance of anv matter being brought before the House and cli-.cJssod in a ~aurw_r vvhich \V~s disparag.ing to the House. J..JOrncbrr1es 1nen10( re on the other side, and occasionally n1crnbcrs on this side, have engaged in a kind of guerilla w.ufare: but, takmg the House as a wholr we shall find th.at in ih pror ;:;ediugs it be~rs co~nrarison w1th ahnost any other IIm.-4-:': in the Coinrnon­wcalth. If ~- " submit to yuur ruling without P.roh'"j.', 1t sn11pl: rnean.s t.hat. at sorue future tnno .~"")l11e Sp< J.k'•.r, perhaps not. yourself, 1nay tu1:n up your ruhng, and quote it as a pre­cectent, _·Jnd so prevent us brjnging forward some nlattcr equally as irnnortaf1t as the matt.or the hon. member for Brisl·.anc South wishe3 to di~cu~,'·. I am sure that thE' Premier, and mnst mrn1lwrs on that sicb of the House will agre(; \'~·ith L,2- vvh011 I <lY that pC'rhap~ no 111ore unpor·tant QlK·"'t.on cm~\_1 be brought before tho House than that of (.he financial relations betweGn the Common caJ+h and the St<:1tc·c. \/'le are reaching now a point--

The SPEAKER: Order ! I hope the hon. menJ-,c'' --ill not pur,cne th. t lino of argu­ment, but that he will confine himself to the question befe>r;' tlw House.

:\Ir. J'vliTGiiELL: I merelv wish to sav that we are novv reaching a ~point \vhc1~ the problem of the Commonw<. lth and State finances must be >Ooh-ed, and l think memlcers are quite jlur~ifiLd in a;:.·kinr that ·vye should ~avc an opport mity of cliscu:~ ,ing the HlLH(T 111 such a manner as 1vill ena.b1e us to arri~;e at so::..ile co

1ncrete. conclusion _resp-rcting· what

should 1-~ ctone at the Premwr,' C'-mference. lf we do not do thaf, it does not matt<cr who goes down thoro: h€ V' ill sirnply repre,"C'nt his own ?Pi~1l·?n. I think it is an unjust t1Iing for any mchvrdual to take such a responsibilitv at such an important period as this. _.\s h,i's

been stated, v, 2 hav-e had seven or eight con­foronc 'S, and very little h_,s resul~ed thal has been of any special permanent bcn<'fit. \Vo have had the financial relationship l,•tvveen the Sta.t-es a.nd the CDnlmon'--.,.;alth discussed from aJl standpoint,,, hut it has a1wa.ys t-'en such a desultory c]i ... eussion that there ]1,~ ._been yory little concrete work done-work that cm be trr.ken an eviclence of the car{':ul n;a.nner in which 1natier has toen considered he fore the Prcrr1iers n1et.

The SPEAKER: Order! I should like the hon. nwmber to ~hov,r Y\ ha.t hi--L ren1a..Tks ha Ye pr· cisely to do with tho particular quo:otion ! f'fore the Homo-the question thnt my rulinc; bE di d~£reed to.

:0lr. :'JlTC11ELL: 1n referring to the ques­tion tha.t your ruling be disa.grced to, I think 1he reascn that you gave for your ruling­tha.t vou rcfuood to allm,· the motion to go l'+_·ior~ the lion~·· notwith~t...J..nclin.~· \\.G con­sidered the ur:,encv of it, aml also its im­port··.nce, was that· it might be discussed to­m,...Trow. If we tak-e ~-}-n1ortDY:, '"hat does it ITlf'"Ln? Suppos·e we take this eye;ling. Ta.ke thD crdinary sittings of the House for this session: 'Vo ha.Ye adjounHJd a. few minutes after 10 o'clock. buppme we taJw up till a fe\v minutes after 10 {/clock to-night to dis­cuH the motion for the adjournment of tho ]Jouso for ei~hte-cn or nineteen days, ''-'e shall discuss that for fnur hours to-ni~ht, +hen we have only four hours to*mor-row. That is eio·ht hours that we ha,-e left befcw the ad­jz.'UrnnH:'nt. TLat is a r-easonable' view to take oi the rnattcr, be -_a use that i~ the tirnc occu­pied each cycnin.L, durin:.., the pn ,..::>nt s·cssion. Say c'wh member of the !Iouse wanted to say s,nnethi110" on the ri:-.-ht of the GoYernrncnt to adjourn the Ilou- c ~for ci chtccn or nineteen davs: then I understand that there IS a pro­po~al to bring forward a Bill a:-:ikint:., for Supply. If "e talm thc,e two motions and divide then into se'.renry*ono portions, "\Vha.t tin1e 1vill there be for discussion on those n1atters without introducing a su\)ject 01. such importance a- the financial relations betwe-en the Cornmomc callh and the States. I think the rea' on giyen y. a., ~o weak that it is im­possil~le for this 1-Iouse to a"~cept it as one su~­cientl\ CDJn·irJcin,~· to -enable thmn to srt quiet:~y and r ,,;pt your ruling. I will be con1pcll0d, froHl ihe , :;.,y in which I ~0?~ at the n1a .. ttcr, when it d{ rs come to a d1YI~·1on, to he with tho:. ·who ar-· votin'): ngainst your ruling. Th-ert: ar-c one or h' o other things I w-ould like to haYe said. but "·et::ing :you arG keeping up so clo::-Ply to Jcho su>ject~which is quite the prJpDr thin~:: I do not wish to depart from that nrinciplc at all-it will he necessary for n1o to ;..bstain fro1n makin~>, any r-2£-er,-,nces to those matters l.mt to simply say that 1 must oLject to your ru1ing.

IITI'. Alt:\!STR-0-;\;G (J:or'cy r;: This C[Ueo­

tion has l c2onTc son1ewha.t cloudr(l. I have, as you know, and hon. members who have dis­cc,,sed the questicn will se0, from the T-ee .rds

this Hon'"• that I have taken a- very ~·reat in the qucstiou as to wbether the

Speaker has the right to be the onl:· one tv scty rnai.tcrs a.rc of ur'")<:m.t puLlic iruportance­or not. But y 'Ur ruling t.his afternoon places that ma.ttcr cutircly on one sid "'· You ha.Yo uot taken up a position of dictc.tin2: to this Iioui3e as to whc-t'hcr this is a question of urgent public irnportauz._e or not. GOYEHN111E~T 1fE:\1BERS: Hear, h('ar!

i\Tr. AR-:IlSTROl'\G: That is the wholo position.

Mr. KENNA: Indirect1v he has.

Mr. Armstrong.1

.fJ70 Motion for AdJournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion for AdJournment.

Mr. ARMSTROJ';"G: l'<o. to whether this is a matter importance or not, is not at sent time.

The question as of urgent public issue at the pre-

An OPPOSITION :\lEMBER: Yes, it i8.

;\1r. ARi'.ISTROJ\'G: Ko. The i"ue at the present moment is whether, if you allow this discussion to take place, you will be antici­pating a dis."'UsE-lion upon a motion \vhich we all know is in front of us. and in front of us in the very very near future.

GOYERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. ARl\lSTROKG: That is entirely and solely the position. I may toll you plainly that if you, Sir, give a deci~;on at ::1ny tin1e while you are in that chair Tf"Serving to your~ self the right t.o say that this or that, or any other question, is a quc,tion of urgent public liTlJ?Ortnnoo- or not, I shall voi,e against your ruhng.

Mr. AIREY: Practically, he sa.ys so.

Mr. ARMSTRONG: I have always done so and I am not going to stultih anv vote I have given previously by voting· ai;y other way. Precedents have Leen quoted in thi. House this afternoon. The orioinal dictum was laid down in this Chamber by J\Ir. Speaker Cowley, in 189·3, "'here he said and I believe rightly-and the authorities 'upon which he based his decision are in the records of this House--he said he would not arrogate to himself, nor did he consider it wa' ri<"ht of any Speaker to arro<~ate to him,elf, th~ sol<e right to say whether any quc,tion is of urgent public importance or not. I say that question IS removed from the present discussion.

GOVERNMENT l\IEMBERS: _Hc_ar, bear!

;\!r. AR:,fSTRONG: Entirely removed, and, therefore, upon this qU(".tion I feel dis­tinctly inclined to obey your ruling. For this rea8'}n I ask hon. members, noC only on the other side, but on this side--

Mr. 1\IGRPRY: Shall we have a guarantee of that opportunity? That is the question.

Mr. ARMS'l'RONG: Ko. You have only the faith of your Parliament here and the good '3nse of your Parliament to ~upport it. That is all you ha Ye, and is all that any legislative body eHr has.

l\lr. HARDACRb: interjected.

;\fr. ARMSTUOKG: When he does that sort of thing, he will get his answer from this House. But at the pre,ent at any rate. that ig not the question we have to decide. I am one with eYery hon. member of this Ho•1se who would like to 'e" a full and extensive discussion on this qu<Jstion of the finan0ial relations between the Commonwealth and the States. I take a deep interest in this matter. Although my o] .. i loader, the hon. member for Townsvill€-(Opposition laughter)-said this afternoon there were only five or six members whose opinion might be of any possible benefit or use b this Honse, I think if a discussion of that sort took place it would be found that a very large number of members have taken a very deep interest in this matter-(hear, hear) -and they would gn·e a very large amount of information in a discussion of th,,t sort. But the time is not with us. Then the next ques­tion that reoolves itself in regard to this mat~r is this: \Nil! any discussion that we may have 'in this Chamber at the present time -will it have any force?

Mr. AIREY: Why send a man down there? [Mr. Armstrong.

Several HONOURABLE :\lEMBERS interjecting,

The SPEAKER: Order, order !

Mr. AE'MSTRONG: May I answer the hon. member? V'ihv send a man down there? Is there a man iri this Legislature who does not wish to see Queensland rcpr0sented at that oonfer~ence?

GovERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. ARMSTRO::\G: Is there a single indi­vidual?

Mr. MuRPHY: Yes, plenty of them. Mr. AIREY: You are arguing against the

nececsity for it.

Mr. AR:\ISTUOKG: It may appear so in the mind of the hon. member. But the ques­tion i3 this: If we have three weeks' discus­sion on this question, wili that discussion here lend any force to the action of our repre­sentative at that Conference? Absolutely none. I may go further, and say that I ques­tion very much indeed, although it is right that we should be represented at that Con­ference, I question very much indeed--

~llr. MITCHELL: I rise to a point of order. Is the hon. member in order in discussing matters outside the question before the Honse.

;\lr. KEnR : It is on the other side of the House.

GOVERN>IENT ;\fEliiBERS: Shame, shame!

The SPEAKER: Order. order! I should like the hon. member to adhere more strictly to what I call the technical merits of this question.

Mr. ARMSTRONG: I shall endeavour to do oo. The hon. gentleman who asked whether I was in order wcrs himself C\~lled to order

whc>n he was going a long way l7. 30 p. m.] further outside the bounds of the

question than I have gone; and I think it was distinctly ungPnerous of him to raise a. point of order when I was, as you say, dangerously nPar the boundary line. Having been in this House a considerable number of :-;·ea.r;, I may be permitted to say that this epidemic of ahme from one side to the other tnat ha~ been manif,),t. during the last five weeks is something which every member should deplore. (liear, hear!) If we have anything to SfltJ, why not say it without in­dulging in personal abuse 9 (Hear, hear!) Coming agai!I to this question, I believe you are right in your ruling, and for the reason I have given I intend to support that ruling. \Ve shall have an opportunity of discussing the quesLwn, etnd we can then say anythmg we wish the Premier to take cognisance of. It would be a deplorable thing for Queens­land not to be represented at the conference.

GOVERNMENT 1\fEMBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. MURPHY (Croydon): I consider this case is on all fours with the case that occurred in 1901, when the hon. member for Lockyer moved that the ruling of the Speaker be dis­agreed with. He did so because Mr. Speaker Morgan had refused to grant him permission to move the adjournment to call attention to certain land matters which he considered o£ much import :wee, not only to his own elec­torate>, but to Queensland generally. On that occasion the Speaker refused to allow the motion to be moved, because he considered it \\us not a matter of urgent public import­ance. On this occasion vou have admitted that it is a matter of urgent public import-

Motion fo1• Adjournment. [4 AUGl"ST.] Motion .for A~journment. 571

ance, Mr. Speaker, but you refused to allow the motion to be moved because the junior member for Brisbane South would have an opportunity to-morrow of discussing the ques­tion as to the financial relations between the States and the Commonwealth. In 1901, when the matt:r . was b. ing considered, you took a stand similar to that ,,-hich vou have taken to-day. You supported :'IIr. niorgan's ruling; and I propose to read an extract from vour speech on that occasion- '

.:\fr. BELT.J (Dalb!!) : I agree with the last speaker that a matter ?f this kind is purely one of procednre, and may be_discus~ed in a ::-plrit which recognl~es th:tt pro­eed~re IR above party mfinene'-\ and that the particular merits of the motion which is the Rubjt<;Jt of discu.ssion sll~nld ~at. en~er into the ttn ~-stion as to whether your rulmg, S1r, Is right or wrOIJ,I:. In 1 c;:ard to the hon. member's general conteution on the merits of your rulin~, I 1~1ns.t eoufess thHt. I find my1-elf in the position {)f 11ot bemg able to agree wi1 h him ~ow. tlle hon. n:emhor fo1· I~oekyer. who moYe<l this woiion, ques­twn~d your l'Igl1t t1~ dccicle a~ to Vlhether a proposed motion was a rlefirnte matter of m·gent puh1ic im­portance. If that is not the ~·ase, I should like to know whose voiC'l is to be 1he determining one as to whether a rno~ion cnnw;..; under those explidt wut ds of the ~tandtng Orfl.er·-''n definite matteJ' of urgent public 1mport~nce." H it is not yon who have to determine that pomt, I want to kllO\Y who it is.

po~~r~;'~~~5~~Jt7~~~. The five members who rise in sup~

Mr: ~ELL: '_fhe hon. member for I.~orkyer interjects that_ It Is the fiYe members 'vho ri!'ie in snrport of the 1notwn. I venture to think otherwise. I venttp·e to ~bink that tl~i~ House, neither in its ~t·mding Orders or 1n any tra(htiOnal 1-)rocedure, has li~tndcd over to a small s~C'tio? of i.t~ members the in 1:et·pr~tatwn of any one of 1~s SUm<lmg Or·fler-. Ont~ide of 1t .... own domi­nant vmcc. the onl} md1vidna\ who has the right given to him to interpret the proecdnre of the IIous8 is the member who for. the time being occupit'S tbe position ?f Spe~~ker. If 1t IS contended that you hhve no voice 1n commg to a der~i!:'ion upon this rnatt~r, I slwnlU like to.know why it is thnt the motion has first to be sub­mitred to you in writing.

If, when you gaye your decision to-day, you had declarod that this y, as not a matter of urgent public importance, I oonsider that this H.ouse would ~ave been justified in agreeing With your rulmg-; but you pointed out that you a~reed it \Vas urgent, and you only took exceptw:r: to the motion being moved because YO';' considered the junior member for South Bns):>ane would ha.ve an opportunity of di'­cussing the question.

The PREMIER: Because it wa.o unnecespary.

Mr. MURPI-IY: It has been laid down in tlw British House of Commons, by ~1r. Speaker Brand and ?ther Speakers, that it does not come wlthm thC" province of the Speaker to determino whether a matter is of urgent public in1port.ance or not.

Mr. VVInTE: The Speaker has not decided that.

Mr. MURPHY: He stated to-dav that it was of urgent public importanc.3. Ir; 1901 the Speaker pointed out to the hon. member for ~cky(lr that he had ample opportunity of discussmg the questwn he wished to brin~ forward when the Lands Estimates were bein~ considen·d; also, that there was what I may call an empty private members' day on which he !lJight brmg the matter forward by giving not!C(l of motwn ; and, that being so, he ruled ~ha.t It was not a matter of urgent public 1mportance. The hon. member for Lockyer moved that the ruling- be disagreed with and spoke about the rights and privileg~s of member~.

Mr. ARMSTRONG: On matters of urgent public importance I a.m with you still.

Mr. J\IURPHY: On that occasiOn the Speaker refused to con"idor it was a matter of urgent public importance.

The PREMIER: You are now blockin <; dis­cussion on the question.

Mr. J;IURPHY: The hon. member for Lockyer would be justified and consistent if he voted in favour of the motion for disagree­ing with the Speaker's ruling. For that motion I intend to vote. The Secretary for Min< s this evening, by interjection, asked.who really had the right to say whether a matter was of nrgcnt public importance. If it were not the Speaker, he interject-ed, what necessity was there to send the Speaker a letter notify­ing him of one's intention to move the adjournment of the House? I looked up H<msard, and 1 noticed that in 1901 Mr. Jacbon, tho present Secrehry for J\fines, who is an admitted constitutional authority, and an authority on the Standing Orders of this House, a gentleman who was afterwards appointed Uhairrnan of Committecs--

1\h. BOW11AN: And a candidate for the Speakership ·;

Mr. C\ll:ItPHY: Yes, and a candidate for the Speakership, and he pointed this out-

1fr. JACK:-50X: !'should be im~lined to sny th~tt the object ot stating the subject to the Spc~'lker in writing, is that he may see that it is not au abt'Hrd motion. 1Ve always tnke itfqr granted that. the Spr:tkor, or the Chair­man of Committm·~, hat> an inherent right to refuse a motion which is nnbecJmingly 'vorcled, m which is on tbe face of it absurd.

So that when Standing Order No. 130 was pa·-scd, I take it that it was ao;reod that notice should be sent to the Speaker of one's inten­tion to move the adjournment of the House in order tha.t he might say whether it was a n.otion which should come bofore the Ass•rnbly,

Mr. ) .. R~I~TRONG-: That is right. Every other Standing Order that requires the Speaker's decision has the Speaker's name mentioned in it.

:\Ir. ~IURPHY: We are told that v:·? will havo ample opportunity to discuss this ma.tter at some other time, but the House is to be adjourned to-morrow.

The PREMIER: You might be discuosing it now.

Mr. JUUHPHY: The Premier has nothing whatBver to do with this question. We are dealing with the Speaker's ruling just now, and not with the Premier, and the Speaker says that we will have ample opportunity of discussing this matter to-morrow, when Supply is brought forward.

Mr. 'WHITE: Take his word for it.

J\Ir. :\IURPHY: The Speaker cannot say what the Government is going to do to­morrow.

OPPOSITION J\1EMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. :\IURPHY: As soon as we start to dis­cuss this question of -fedora! finance, the Pre­mier can move that the question b~ now put, and we might never get an opportunity of dis­cussing it I consider, 31r. Speaker, that in your decision to-day you have takon away certain rights from members of this House. As you yoursl'lf pointed out, in 1901, this should not be a party matter. The right' and privileges of members should be preserved by the votes of members themselves. In 1901, Mr. Cowley went very fully into this matter, and h<~' pointed this out-

Hox. A. S . .;Q\\~LEY: 1Ve have nothing to flo with t.he practice of the House of Commons since 1801, bec~usa

Mr. Murphy.]

572 Motion for Adjournment. =ASSEMBLY.] Motion fur Adjournment.

our St.an(1ing- Order.'" ha vu been p~.~"'·Cll since that date. vre ha.....,e onr own S~andingOrdu·s to guide us now.

Mr. SMITH: 1Ye have formed precctcnts. HoN. A. S. 00\YLEY: Yes; hut the Speaker's rnLng

ha~ been clutllengt'd. Si!JCe that ruling was given, the matter w.-,· .. lli~YE'r dl."CUsf'Jed t1ll the quP·tion was raised by the late }J(•ll m em her for f~ympie, :rt·. P:shcr. But ~hat \Yas an entirely t11ffercnt. r ·.·le, for that hon. mem­ber h,Jl two 0c·m·tunit.ies of hrbgh~g tlle uatter for­W;!rd <tnfl h;tYiq,{ the matter deh:ltcd, mHl he failed to tltke aaYanta~e Of tho;:.e Oppnrtunitir • 'J1hat is the clif­ferenc.-· I!o1.v;:·vu·, 1 bnvo nlw:1ys hFrn -oppr ·Ctl to the l11'af't1re of an.1· hon.l!.f"llt. ·rin this IIon'e risiug in his place H!Jd lnO'.ing that Lhc Spt;ak-..r'· ruiiu:.: lJe m~agreed with on tl1c i 1npnh;e of tlJn momen1 lil<e this Without. giving cv.1·.v hon. rmb. ~": n opportunity of in\" :.-lti.-gatil!l!, the Lr himsdf. 'I'll ~is a matter which should b0 aJl party e0!1:3illcl·ati. ns. Ho.xouR.~BLE ::\h:.urnms; lien·. hear: Hox. A. S. CO~I·r,I:Y: .4nr1 ai_O\'C nll }1( 1 ty jealon:;;ies

or s.n, thin~~ of th<Jt ,, n·t. ·we ha Ye to lay flm'i'n n <'Cir­rect inh~rpretaticn o~ onr Rtnnding Orders awl say what is tbe emT('n! 1 ·H·et:urc in all;. a.tter.-~ r rtairdng to the bu::;irH'SS o[ tltc Hou:1e. I alv; ·tys l>ee;l of opinion that nnr StatJ,~irg- Order any lwn. mem1X'r the right to mrn:e tl lt t ]J~! .lHLng- b(~ dis·~-'Tl'f- d with is l'rld, mtd I think l'r!me .:\Iini···tn sllnHld see tlutt the H·anrHng Or 'm· in quc·.Uonrhoulcl he amended. ns & on a~ yo::-sihln. I do nN knm;; ti1at any such Standing Orller exL.t~ in !Lny l'arJj~uncnt ln t1 e Drit;~h dominionF;, nncl ~orm ~ts 1h!:t Order is c1otJ£ away wit11. tllc 11Atlcr. I \Yi~h to S!J.V t.ht~t tl:e pmctlce I refern 'l to is nn:.tir not Ollly to yon. =-lr. f flCaker, but to eYrr.r ltnn. mcrnbor \Yho wi-"'hes to get ~Lt the trnth of an_v IJ<:riicnlar mat1e1·. I am sorr~· thnt the l1on. memhr:r fm· Loekyroy dtd 1101 give notice of thi,-_-, motion, so thnt members l'ouid hunt np tJr certcuts wbich would Iuui tn t.be Hon~e coming to a rjght ronc1n:o-.ion. But htking- into eo ~irle'~'ntiou the praetir~e whieh hns existed in tl1is Hou .. ~c in days gone by. antl taking il"!to com;idPratinn tl18 nnd tbe speeches whiell have been mrHh~ hy of the St~mding Orders Com-mittcf'. who introtiw~ed this ~tHTidir1g Urder, not only into t1Jis Honse, but" \vhen n cone~pouf!ing- Order was intrcdncGrl in the Hon~e of Common.s-whpn it was distinctly stated that. this alteration W<t~ to preYenl the very gH:.ve 1vaste of time which batl occurred under the predons :-;tauding Order.

J\[r. \VHITE: I wish h8 \vas here now to pre~ vent the wa,tc of time. (Laughter.)

Mr. J\IUHPHY: He went on-And wllcn the 1n11tter of curtailing the rights <md privile.!::'es of individnal members is in question, I tbiuk the matt;_t· of trrgrncy should be Vt-:' tell in tlH~ tive mem­bers l'l'il;g. F1)r the ret!:sons I ha Ye given, I am going to suppol't t:10 motion.

It is for this very n-a:;on, acting on the judg ment of an admitted authority on the Standing Orders like Sir Alfred Cowley, and acting on the judgment of an admitted anthority on the Standing Orders like Speaker John L·cahy, that I consider that I am prefectly justified in b ;rrccin;; to the motion that your ruling be disw"eed with. \Ye aL' hld that we ca.n discucs this important matter when the Pre­mier giYes us permission to discuss it. He say," t'h 1.t \\8 might be discussing it now. 1\-c are told a.bo Gy the hon. member for :i\Iore­ten that .ce u:n di ,.cu ~ it on tl11; questiou 'that this 1-I ou;., do no> adjourn until the

~"ith of :\u~.u.sl.," but what authority has the hen. nwmLer for :\lorcton to t0ll us that we can disulS thi c matt"r \Ylten the motion for the adjournment i ~· bf-:;fore the I-iouso.

lln OrPOSITIO~ ~'.LJ:~JBEH: None. ~lr. :FonsYTII: \Yho ca.n stop you?

:Hr. :TCRPil Y: The Speaker can stop us i'.lr. FonsYTH: He cannot stop you.

:\Ir. MURPHY: I do not re ~m·d the hon. meml -r for 11oreton an authority on tho Standi;, ,. Orders.

:\Jr. "oHSYTH: I am sure I do not regard you. a" ono.

Mr. :\IURPHY: Since I have been m this Home I havB discm·ered that if you let an

[ilfr. i1f urphy.

opportunitv pass to discuss matters. when you really wa.1~t to come to .the pDint and deal with them vour opportumty has p:one.

Orrosrn;x }1KIIBERS: H<ear, hear!

:\Ir. :\IG"RPHY: \Ye know that Standi>:g Order No. 135A is a very effective weapon m the hands of a majority.

}lr. AR11ISTROXG: It rests with the Speaker.

}1,·. :\lURPI-IY: Yes; it rests :'ntirely with th8 Speaker, and the Speaker m1ght _cons1~er that V\'D are not. justified in di:sagr(:·mnf, w1th him. \Yha.t happens 1.hen" 'l'vdl, 1t has g·ot to go. It i:~ the duty of the members of ,:hls 1--iou:--..e. ,\·hen a meml'cr c:--~n. cc~ five ~ernl,;€rs. of the Hou·e to support h1m '': movmg ti:e adjournment to discuss a question o,f pu~JllC irnportanc<> to dJ·CU'S that mohon. Sta,ldmg Order 1'\o.

1

130 provid;::·s for that, and ~1vss hin1 ever..-,- opportunity of d'?ing f-0. a.nd 1£ _we allow th,; Sp~aker to ovec·nde that Standmg Ordor or if v: c 'l'ermit the Speaker to my to any ",~em'x·r '·:I do not intend to allow you to rnov,· th~ ~djournrnent o£ th~ ~Touse," then \Ve ('i\·,-: away our rights and prrnlo~'€S.

OrPOSI'I'ICJ); :\IE~IBETIS: Hear, hear!

}lr. l\fURPHY: It is Lecause of th~t that I intend to vote for the mohon move~- uy the hon member for t:louth Bnsl a.ne. \1 o have bee;, told that this question of Federal finance has never been di"cussed here. Has there ever be •n an opportunity? The Premwr has bocJl to several confer .>nee·, bu': has the Pr<e­lnicr or a.ny member . of the ).luustry ever given us any information as to ¥.-..-hat trans-pired a.t tho::G conferen-ces? .

The PRE'IIER: Y os; full particulars.

Mr. ~fl'RPHY: No. } lr. BOW}lAK : \Yhat about the last Pre~

n1ier.s' Crn1forence. ~Jr. FonsYrH: It was all published.

Mr MG"RPHY: I was out of the Rous<; for a ~tin;e and the Premier might have glven ~omo i{Iforrnatiou th0n.

:\lr. \'rooDS: i\o, ho did not.

:\Ir. :IG"RPHY: While I have. been in the House I never heard lmn cJ~~al with the ques­tion at all. Ho simply comes a!~ng, and h<ays), '·I want to go to MelbourJ'e. . (Laug tor. ' I want to meDt the other Irmmers. \V e are oing to have a row with the Fc~cral (_io;'err;;

~10nt. \Vc have got to conserve State r.gnts.

The SPEAKER: Order! The .hoD. gentle­man is getting outside the particular que.st1on before the House.

l\Ir. MDR'PH'i: Yes, I thought I was getting awaY from it. (Laughter.) I only wanted to point out that I thml, that an oppor­tu;1ity ,houid bo l;(lvcn for the d1scus"on of this Federal quostwn, m order that the Pre­miN uight be able to go to :1\Ic·lbourne and sav that he has got the State of Queensland at hi~ back.

Mr. ArmSTRO);G: Half will tell him ono thing ancl half will tell him another.

l\Ir. ::\HJRPHY: If half of the m em bors to;d the Premier ono thing, and tho othe_r ~alf to_d the Prdnicr another, ho has the maJonty, and he CJ.n gi YC' the casting vote.

~Ir. HARDAC'RE: Ho would know it.

:\Ir. MUPvPHY: Yes, if the matter we,re discnssed. tho Premier woulc! know what t_ae House thought of the quostwn, and. I quite agree with the hon. member. for Lewhhardt, that if this matt<er were d1scussed sev3ral

Motion fur AdJvurnment. [4 AuGusT.] .Motion for .ddjuurnment. 3

members here might be able to deal with :Federal finance. I do not profess to be an authority on it myself. We might have the hon. member for iVIoreton enlightening us.

Mr. FORSYTH: I think I know as much abo;lt it as you, and a little more probably.

Mr. MURPHY: I only wanted to point out to the hon. member for iVloroton that I have never professed to be a financier.

Mr. BowMAN: A lightning financier.

The SPEAKER: Order ! I hope the hon. member will confine his remarks to the motion that my ruling be disagreed with.

Mr. :\itJRPHY: Don't get Bxcited. Mr. WHITE: I sincerely hope that the

House will co1ne to a sense of the wants of the country, and will agree to the ruling without division, and we can then go on with the business of the House without further waste of time.

An 0PPOSI'rioN ME1iBER: And adjourn the House for a fortnight?

Mr. LENNON (Herbert): I do not 'ntend to take up the time of the House. I merely rose to say that I intend to· support the motion of the hon. junior member for Bris­bane South. I cannot see any sense in the argument of some hon. members on the other side when they say that we arc rega" ~loss of matters of public importance-that, although it was of public importance, it was not of

it for a ciay. to~nwrrow. '' "To~n1orrow

in tL.is in~ as regards

to-rnorrow is is occupied

\VC have already

l\lr. ILuiiLTOX: Tho Prarnier's wcn1.

: Exactly. 'fhat is simply on rule of the House of Com-

mons in England~fiv-e here is equivalent to forty there-and five members rising in their places to support a member proposing such a motion as vvo are discussing constitutes--! won't say a sacred privilege, but one of our most cherished privileges. I think it is the duty of a comparatively young member like myself to do what he can to preserve these privileges. I think very good reason has been shown by the authority of the most eminent Speakers in England, and the greatest con­stitlltional writer known, in support of the arguments of the hon. member for Bowen, the hon. member for Ipswich, and others, and I think that the argument is wholly in favour of the motion to disagree with your ruling. Although it may be the proper thing to express contrition for taking that view, I should only be acting the part of a hypocrite if I said that I felt very sorry. I trust that the good sense

Mr. Lennon.]

5i4 11iotion ./01' Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion for Adjournment.

of the House, and the desire to retain its privileges, will result in the carrying of the motion by a substantial majority.

Mr. I~L\lviiLTON (Gregory): I must con­gratulate you, Sir, on so early in your career as Speaker of this Cham her being confronted with a motion of this sort. I am going to olier no apology fo · supporting the motion that your ruling be disagreed with, because I think that, taking all the circumstances into consideration, and from my knowledge of your attitude in the past in these questions, if you were a private member in the House you would be supporting this motion yourself. (Hear, hear !i There is no doubt that when you were a private member you were a great stickler for the rights and privileges of mem­bers of this House.

Mr. WHITE: So he is yet.

1\lr. HAMILTON: Not at the preoont time. I am quite certain that if you, Sir, were a private mBmber at the prBsent tim€ you would be supporting a motion that a ruling of that sort should be disagreed to. The hon. mem­ber for Lockyer seemed to be labouring under the impression that this is not a matter of sufficient urgent public importance. I under-

stood you to rule that there would [8 p.m.] ce sufficient time to discuss this

question to-morrow. Well, even if we harl the guarantee of the Premier that time would be given to-morrow, we know that it could only be for a few hours, because pri­vate business will talm up till 6 o'clock, and our experience of the Premier in the past is such that we would not take anything· on trust from him.

The SPEAKER: "Order, order!

Mr. HA:".ULTON: Even although the Pre­mier might say that he would give us sufficient time to-morrow, we can take nothing on trust from him. How do we know, as other hon. members have pointed out, that the mder of business would not be altered 1 Besides, a questiOn of this sort is of more urgent im­portanc<> than any qu<:stion which could be brought before the House. In the past the Premier has gone to Premiers' Conferences without knowing, so far as I know, what the opinion of this Hous€ was. Unless amp!€ time is given to us to discuss the )llatter, how can the hon. gentlBman know what is the opinion of this House, or even what is the opinion of the people of Queensla.nd 1 He has never asked hon. members for their opinions, nor has he given hon. mE><nbers an opportunity of oxpres:c:i.r1g th-nir opinions. Th-ere is a vital principle at stake-that is, the rights and pri­viler. ·s of minorities in this Chamber. It is the duty of every hon. member to uphold tho''·' riphts and privile.c;es, and for that reason I am going· to vote with the hon. member for Brisbane :South. \Ve ought to havo time for the members of this House who have experi­enc-e in these n1atters, or who wish to discuss them, to niv" th<eir views. But we have no guarantRe that the question will lee discuHcd tD-rnorrow, because we know that there is a motion coming on this CV{minv to adjourn the Hou•.e in ord r to allow th€ Premier to go to l\Ielb{lurne. If a day were set apart for the disc.us~"'ion of the question, the IIouse might demde that some other member should go to the conference inst?ad of the Premier. 'Ihey might send down tne hon. member fnr Cam­booya or the hon, memher for Fitzroy. or some other member. I shall hav€ much plea­sure in voting that your ruling l::e disagre-ed with.

[Mr. Lennon.

Mr. PA YNE (Jiitchell) : If your ruling is. correct, Sir, then Standing Order 130 is not nBcessary, because that Standing Order lays down clearly that undBr certain conditions any hon. mcml>er can move the adjournment of the House. The Premier said-and if what hB said was Correct, hP would be quite right, but what he 1said was incorrect-that, if our Standing Orders permitted any hon. member to mov€ the adjournment of the House, it would upset the whole business of th€ House. But this House has protected itself against that in two distinct ways. Although an hon. member is privileged to move the adjourn­ment of the Houoo, he cannot obstruct the business of th€ House for very long, because the Standing Order limits the length of sp€eehes, and under Standing Order 135 the Premier can stop discussion if he thmks it necesc,ary to do so by moving, "That the question b€ now put." As a matter of fact, I believe that any hon. mBmber can move, "That the question be now put." I feel it is my duty to vot€ that your ruling he di>agreed with, and I do so in an honest way too. I remember last session the hon. member for Brisbane South moved a similar motion, and your predee€ssor, the Hon. J. Leahy, laid down very clearly that he was powerl-ess in the matter so long as five m<Jmbers rose in their places in support of the motion; and I think it would be a pity to take that privi!Bge away from hon. members in view of the protection that is afforded by the two Standing Orders to which I have referred. I can, therefor€, conscientiously vot€ with the hon. member for Brisbane South,

~Ir. RYLAND (Gyrnpie): There is one point which no hon. m<Jmber who has yet spoken has alluded to. Anyon€ who takes up Hansard in connection with this d-ebate will want to know what Standing Order 130 provides. Now, no hon. member has yet read that Standing Order, and I propo,e to do so to put it into Hansard.

The SPEAKER: I hope the hon. member will r.ecogni·'B that this is a discussion in this Chamber. It deals with a matter of procedure, and instead of attempting to elucidate that, the 'hon. member is about to address his re­marks simply with a view to giving• the pub!io information. This is a House matter, and we are discussing the question for our own en­lightenment.

Mr. RYLAND: For that reason I would like to put before the House what the position really is. The Standing Order reads-

.\. motion f'or the adjournment of the House, other than the us.r .. al mot.ion to terminate the sitting of the House at the e11d cf tbR bu~ine.ss of the d:~y, ioihall not be entertained, eYrept for the pnrvo~e of debating a definite matter of urgeut public importanc~, t~JfJ :mb­ject. of whicl1 has beP.n first stat0d to .:\lr. :Speaker in writing.

Any such rnotion slihll be proposed by the mover without debate in the first instance. bnt shall not be put by :J.lr. Speaker nnle~s five other members at least rise .._n their places to support it.

If five members so ri~c in their places the mover may proc-~ed, but may not speak for more tlmn thirty minutes to de 'bate the mation, and any other member deba.ting the motion, or the moYer S}Jcaking in reply, m:ty uot speak for nJIH'e than t\Yenty minutes, ;.nd every nu·mber making or debating an\· snch motion slmll confine himself to the :single l11P..Lter in respect or which the motion is matle.

Inlhe debate on a motion ior adjournment referPnce may b0 m~ de to facts Llisclo~cd in answer tn <JllCStions put to members either on the same day or on a preyious d:-ty.

The object of the hon. member for Brisbane South in proposing his motion was to give members an opportunity of discussing the

Motion for Adjournment, ['1 AuGusT.] Motion for Adjournment. 575

financial relations between the States and the Commonwealth, and if the motion had been allowed, he would have had only half an hour in which to spea.k, and the speeches of other members would hav::> been limited to a shorter time, so that_ we should havE> had short, crisp speeches, whwh would have been a very good guide to the opinions held by members in this House. I do not care about putting off till to-morrow what we can do to-clav. This matter could ha•e been discussed to-day, and had the discussion been allowed in the first instance, it would probably have been over by this time. The privilege that members have of discussing grievanc0' in this way is one that should be preserved, and I hold that it is our duty to maintain our rights in this respect. As the Premier has said on more than one occasion, "They only have rights who dare maintain them,"· and I shall vote for the motion that your ruling be disagreed with.

* Mr. MULLAN (Charters Tou·,·rs): Before the question is put, I should like to give the reasons why I feel bound to vote that your ruling be disagreed with. I realise that it is a very delicate thing for any member to vote deliberately for ouch a motion, because l hold that when a Speaker has been elected to his exalted office it is the bounden duty of every member in the House to uphold the Speaker and his cloings, so far as is consistent with honest dealing in the House. This is not a party matter, but it is one in which I think I am right in differing from the Speaker. It will be within the recollection of hon. mem· hers that a few weeks ago the Speaker, in giving a ruling on the question as to whether we could discuss Supply during the currency of the want of confidence motion, fortified himself by referring to precedents of this Parliament, and even quoted precedents of last session. In this particular case we also can quote precedents of this Parliament. We have rulings of Sir Alfred Cowley and Mr. John Leahy, to the effect that the Speaker has no alternative but to allow a question of this kind to be cliscusscd, so long as there arc five mem­bers in tho House prepared to support the member who moves the adjournment of the House. I am not a great stickler for pre­cedent; l would rather make a good precedent than follow a bad precedent any day, but I feel sure that trw precedents that have been laid down in this particular matter are sufficiently sound to follow on this occasion. ThB Speaker first gave his rnling, and then at a la tor siagn sn.ndwichcd in the rr- :1sons upon which he based his ruling. In stating those ree ~ons h ' en1phasisPd one thing moro than anything cLe, and that was-first, that he recog­nised that this was a question of urgency, and, secondly, that he was not the judge of urgency. I hold that his po.,it.ion is untenable and illogical in stating that tho question was urgent, and yet ruling that it could not be discussed until to-monow. \Yhat is the effect of that ruling? Suppo,e a man was to be hangPd to-morrow rnorning, and a member of this HGuse vvished to rnovo tho adjournment of the Hol''0 to consicler a matter of "urgent pul1liu importance," namely, the aclvisability of gfantjng that rnan a reprieve, the Speaker. according to the ruling ho has given, would get up in his chair, and sa:;) "Yes. geutlernen, this is an 'urgent mat10cr of public import· ance,' but wo sh,cll be dealing with an Appro­priation Bill to-morrow some hours after the m'm is banged, and upon that you can discuss the question." Again, suppose there was a

flood in the Brisbane River, and a member mo.-cd the adjournment of the House to suggest that immediate steps should be taken to secum the lives and property of the citizens of Brisbane, the Speaker, following !he ruling he has given to-day, would get up and with due sokmnity say, "Yes, I agree that this is a question of ' urgent public im­portance,' but there will be an Appropriation Dill coming before the House to-morrow after­noon, some hours after the lives of people have been lost and property swept away, and that will be the most appropriatB occasion on which to discuo;s the matter." The cases I havo cited are absolutely identical with the ono before the House. The present is an opportune time for the discussion of this matter, because we know that the executioner is sharpening the gag whereby members will be absolutely prohibited from giving this or any question the consict.cration it deserves. The Premier stated that this matter could have been discussed during the la't four or five weBks. I deny that it could have been cliscussed during the last four or five weeks, because I have a vivid recollection of having been ruled out of order by the late Speaker when I attempted to discuss the financial rela­tions bBtween tl10 States and the Common­wealth on a similar motion. I presume, therefore, that the present Speaker, followmg precedent, would also have ruled me out of order had I attempted to mscuss that question cluring the recent debate. The hon. member for :\oioreton stated a while ago that there was nothing whatever to prBclude m,cmbers from discussing this particular question on the motion which is to follow this. Surely it is self-evident to any hon. member that such an important question as the financial relation" betwc'Gn the States and the Commonwealth should not be mixed up with various other State questions. If there be one question more than another which requires careful and &eparate treatment, it is that momentous ques. tion of the financi1l relations between the State and thc Commonwealth, and this it can­not receive. if it is discussed on a motion which admits not only of the discussion of that question but also of the discussion of cverv other conceivable question. It is pre· sun,€cl a. delegate from this Parliament will attend the forthcoming Premiers' Confcreuce. I do not believe it is the wish of this House !hat he should ,o att,.•nd. But that is not the question. Th-· fact is, he is to attend. In anv well-rDg·ulated institution in the world, in "Parliam~nt or outside Parliament, does it 1eot appc>a.r rDasonalllc that wh~n you send a del<'o-ate anywhere. or when a deiegale goes a.nywhere on behalf of any body, that that delegate has so1ne specific'* \vork to do? ~n other words, that he is ck legated to do certain t,' ark, and receives sp(;_'cific in~tructio11s ho\\ to carrv ont that work. Dnt the Premier of this St"t"e cxpedo to s;-o clown to :\J.ell,ourne~-

The SPE~\KER: Order! I must point out to the hon. member that how·ver valuable his oLR.r•ryatim:.s are, they are Hot in order now. They haw nothing- to do with the distinct question as to ·whether my ruling is in order. in thn li,~ht of the Standing- Orders ancl the prucedent'l that are to be found in" :.Yray," or 1n any oi her rccognisc:>d authority.

:\Ir. ~Tl'LLA:'\: If vou allow me to com­plcio .w.:- ;.,;ntence-- ~

The bPEAKER : I shall be v2ry loth to allo'\v the hou. men1ber to colnplPto his scn­icncc>, as I think I have allowed him to go on 1nuch longer than I ought to have.

Hon. J. T. BeU.]

576 J1otiun fur AdJournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion .for Adjournment.

Mr. MuLLA~: I hope to be able to prove that they aro in order. To restate the ques-

I was leading· to-that any institution

:YOU are c<ll11D.~r·i·,An Speak€rs, you like.

it to give going to and yet,

to the work is

we are not pre­and separately,

discussed, as you other

Mr. KERR: It cmates a precedent. Mr. MULLAN: That a question is not of

urgent public in1portance and that it cannot be diB{mssed.

Mr. KENNA: That is the point. Mr. ~v1ULLAN : It amounts to this: A

Speaker who disregards his own reputation­who pays a great dBal of attention to the dictates of the Premier of the. day-and we know there are mBn weak enough, and it may be possible that SpeakBrs may bB contemptible enough, to be dictated to by the Premier of the day. The danger therefore is-and it is a real danger if your ruling is supported-that taking advantage of the precedent this estab-

[Mr. N ullan.

lishes, other Speakers may give rulings of this kind to the serious curtailment of the privi­leges of members of this House. The hon. m€mber for Lockyer supported your ruling,

say, and appeared gr,ossly incon­own attitude on a former occasion similar circurnstanc·es_ 1 he n1oved

of thB Speaker b<e disagTeed cas£ in question is practically identical

there is a very long speech by read present-in which he

Question stat'ld.

if a.nybody is incon­hon. membe.r for

supp-orting your on that occasion, :\lorgan. I hope, of this House will, sake of upholding vote aga.inst your

or of

to. have gone to the of those decisions, and I

in or six cases the Spouk~r _ru.led matters were not of urgent pubhc rm­

In this instance you have demded is a matter of nrgent -pub;io import­

so that point does not operate on thrs The question then arises. _whether

it is your authority to set aside a drs­cussion on a qaestion of urgent pubhc rmport­ance until a future day. You stated that we would have an opportunity of discussing the question to-morrow. Of course you, no doubt, anticipated that the GoYornmBnt would be able to go on with their business as set down on the paper for to-morrow. I do not kno;-v whether it has occurred to you that there rs a probability of the Government being de­feated before the motion for going into Supply comes on. \Ve know that the Government are hanging on by the skin of their tee~h, as the jnnior member for Rockhampton sard the other day; and I do not know whether it has occurred to you that, in the event of the motion to be proposed after this discussion comes to an end being defeated, the Govern­ment cannot go on wit'h the motion asking for Supply; so it would appear that the opportunity

1Wotion for AdJournment. [4 .A.uausr.J Motion joT Adjournment. 577

for discussing this matter of urgent public nnportance-tho financial relations between the Commonwealth and the i:ltatos-will have passed. I do not think there is one hon. member who desires to see C'uecnsland un­represented at the forthcoming conferenccc of Premiers. The motion of the hon. member for South Brisbane does not propose to pre­vent a representative being sent to the con­ference; it is merely for the purpose of enabling n1ember~ to givu tho reprcsentatiYe of this i:ltate instructions--if I may put it that way--as to how to acl in reprc ,onting this i:ltate at the conference. It is true that, accordmg to some of the authorities in Sir Brskine :\1ay's work, there aro cases in 1vhich the ::lpeaker has n·commonded that a motion for adjournment should be allowed to be dis­cu·.-··ed at a later stage.; but if vou look into them you will fine! that thcv aro matters of n1inor importance, 1vhich might bt~ discu~~ed on the Estimates. Ono referred to the appointment of a certain gentleman to a military command; another to the release of a prisoner from gaol on account of his physical condition. In the case of the prisoner, who was seriously ill, the then Premier (Hon. A. J. Balfour) undertook thut tho item under which the matter could be disc UP .eel should b~ the first item on the Pr~sons' Estirnatcs for Lhe cvf nint_~· I am not gorng io quote all rhcsc cas cs; but it. is inter~ esting to look up the authorities which mem­bers on tlw oth T ,.idc have quoted as pro­c:_•dents in rnattcrs of this kind. In deciding that I rnust object to vctur ruliuv, ).[:r. Speaker, I arn convinced ·that on a- future occu.>ion, when it may be desirablo to have another matter of urgent public importance discussed. this may be rcfc:: red to as a pro~ cedent for ruling tllf' proposed motion out of order. As to the opprrtuaity 'I o are told there will bo for disc;ussing lLis ll!aitcr later on, how do we know that during the interim between now and the time for discussing ::iupply certain :\Iuusters or members on the other side may not have a Inisunden:;Landin&, on matters of policy of supren1o in1p:J!'tanc i:o the country? That may possibly occur, and thn" may think it their duty to c ,)nle to this side, and cease supporting the GovernildDt now sittjng on the Treasury bench. .How do vve know that Ministers may not he~vo off• nclecl some mem­bers, and that there may not bo a member now wavering in his support on matters of public importanc'€? Since heJf"past 3 o'clock wo have been discussing your •decision, l\1r. Clpeaker, when we might have been devoting the time to a better purpose by discussing the financial relations between the States ancl the Cmumonwealth; but, seeing that it is a matter affc'cting the rights and privileges of members of this House, the time has probably been well employed.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

I\Ir. DOUGLAS: I shall make way now for others, who may wish to express their opinions on the matter ; and, though I regret having to do so, I think my duty demands that on this occasion I should vote against your ruling.

* IIIr. SUJ\INER (},-undah): I think there is no doubt that if this matter had been left a non· party question there would have b<een an almost unanimous votG against your ruling. If there is one Standing Order more than another tha.t safeguards the rights of the minorih it is this Standing Order No. 130. It has never been abused during the existence of the Queensland Parliament. No one can say that ever during the existence of the Queensland Parliamont has this Standing

1909-20

Order been abused. If you look at the records of the New ::louth \Vales l'arliamcnt vou will see that .scareely a -:.~'eek pa.~s·e.s -\Vithout a motion to adjorn the House, but in the ~lueensland Parliament I say unhesitatingly, without fear of contradiction, that this Standing Order has never be•m abused.

:\Ir. AIREY : It is only used once a session.

Mr. S UMJ\iER: Scarcely once a se>sion. If there has been one matter moTe than an­\.lther on which it was necessary to adjourn the House to have it discussed, it has been this matt<er montion<ed by the hon. member for Brisbane South to-day. No matter of more pres~ing in1portance has z, V€r -exist.ed in the history of (,jueensland than this matt<er which has been brought forward by the junior mcm­[,{)r for Brisbane South. (Hear, hear!) The vf'ry .Standing Ord€r it~elf saf£>guards any abuce. Tbe mO\-cr of the motion c:tn only speak for thirty minutes, and every other speaker can only speak tor twenty Ininutes, and if this motion had been allowed to come on to-clay and discussion taken place upon it. even if every member h:,d spoken upon it, it \~·ould have been through. The Standing­Order safeguards a11y abu.-e, anJ it is the only Stauding Urd;:;r which safeguards a private n1emLcr ~11d a.llO\VS him to ventilate his ~rieva.nce"'. l Cf_:rtainly think that you ruling 1··iil have a bad dl'ect in future. l am quite c;ertaiu tha.t were it uot fDt' party Jiffertnoos Jour ruling 1\,~)uld be· disagrD-eJ ,,,ith to-day. (Hear, hear!) The hon. member for l\loreton, in speaking to-night, said that thi<· rnatter could be di:3CUS;:J{-'rl on a n1otion for adjournm€nt; l•ut this i§ a matter of such public importance that it could only bo discu.' 'cl properly on a. special n1otiou, ··xith special instr~1ctions, and a sp' cial issue brought forward. lt might bo die,'- :.::.ssed generally on a. motion t-0 go into Cordmitte<~ of Supply, it rnight be discussed gc nerally on the Address in Reply, and it 1night l'e discu~sed g'(:nerally on a. motion for adjournment; but this 1s n critical period \Yith us, \vhcn '''e are approaching" the expi­re.ti on of the p<eriod of the Bradclou clause, when ihe State Premiers aro going to 1ne-et in ::\felbourne. a'.ld m<"et the Federal Prime ~!inister. and it is n•'Ct•,sa.ry, therckre, that a day should be set apart to discuss this matter, so that our repr{' .cntative \vho _g·(-...es dovv-n, whether it be the Premier or anvone els0, should know what are the opinions of this As•.,embly bofore he goes clown. If a repre­s~nt 1-tivc go-es do',·,rn without first getting the opinion of this House, then the whole time spent clown there would be wasted. They hav€ alrea,dv had fivf" or six Premiers' Con~ ferences, a~d they have been fivo or six plC!llCS.

::\Ir. AIREY: Seven altogother.

::\1r. SUMNER: They have had seven picnics altogether.

The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. gentle­man mu ;t keep to the point.

:Yir. SUMNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am sure you, too, must recognise that thero wore seven picnics.

Mr. 'vVHITE: Don't you believe in having a representative?

Mr. SUMNER: It does not matter if we have 100 repre,ontatives thero, the Federal Parliament will do what they like at the end of it. The Federal Parliament is elected by the people, just the samo as we are. This is a subject of urgent public importance, as you practically ruled this afternoon, and, having ruled that, you should have allowed the d<ebate

Mr. Sumner.]

578 .11£otion .for ArUournment. [ASSEMBLY.] -'-Wotion .for Adjournment.

upon it. That is the conclusion you came to from the Standing Order it~clf. But, when _you tell us that it C(•mplies with the Standmg Ord"r. you sa,y, "Y on can discuss it to-rnurrow." There is ono ea d v,'hich occurred in tho Queensland Parliament, when th\i hon. m":mbor for Clermont, J\Ir. Losina, moYed the adJournment in connection with the l\Iac­donald case, and I thinl, it is within the recol­lection of many membms of this House that he was ruled out of order similar to the ea-A we have here iJ-day. T!{e Addrecs in Reply was on at that time. and he was told that he could bring tho matter up on the Address in Rep!:·. \Yo haYo no guarantee that we will be able to discuss grievances before Snpply to­morrow, or ihat we y;-ill bo able to discuss anv­thing at all. We know the critical position of parties in this I-Iouse, and, as we know what is on tlw hoards, we know what to expect. If ever there was a ca .• ·e when the House should bo adjourned to disc!: ,s a matter of public importance, it is the present case. The matter of the financial relations betwe' n the Common­wealth and tho States should be properly dis­cussed, so that our repre,entatiye or repre sentatives may knovv the opinion (,: th" How,-:­bcfore going to ~Ielbournc. Because there are thirty-six m cm bers sitting on that si do of the House, That does not say that the thirty-five mombors sitting on this side shall have no say at all. Tho positions may be changed alto­g0thcr to-nwrrow, and that will change the opinions Df the representatiYe or repre" scntatives who gD down to :'delbomne. It. is only fair whoever goes down that they should represent th'l opinions of every member of this Chamber, so far as it can be gained. Last session the hon. member for South Brisbane asked the Premier to set apart a day to di·-cuss the question, but the Premier would not allow a clay to be set apart to discuss it. No, he refu&ed to allow it to be discussed.

The SPJ<:AKER: Ordcrl That is not the point. The point is whether my ruling is correct or not. I hope the hon. member will deal strictly with that point.

J\lr. SU:\ll\'ER: I was only pointing <Jut that the Pnemier refused last session to set apart a day for the discus~ion of an i111portant question like- this. The hem. rentleman wants to go himoclf. He wants to r<'present Queens­land himself a>t the conference.

The SPEAKER: Order, order !

l\1r. SU;'.lNER: I hDP'" that when the next motion c.an1os on I v-:ill not only get five or ten minuteo to mycelf. which is all I wanted on this ma.tter, but that I will get four or fi.-e hours to my,;elf. (L t.ughter.) I think this a very ur;ent public matter, and it should be discLF.•-,ed. Wo are told in the loading daily raper to-day tha.t the rcla.iions I ·etween the States and the Cc :nmonwccJ h-~-

The SPEAKER: Order! Surdy the hon. me1nber's sense of things will tdl him that his n~ma.rks are not in order on the question rrr:!;'ardin~ the interpretation cf tl-te Standing Orders under the 1notion that 1ny ruling bo disagreed with. I hop<J th€' hon. member will lr"ep strictly to the point.

HO)lOCRAl3L:<: :\Ic:;.nE!lS: Hear. hear! Illr. ST;:\r:~ER: ·well. most hon. memtcrs

who spokG to-day dealt with this question, and we \·-ill lHtYO r) opportunity of discus~ing it if you refuse us the opportunity to do SD, and that is where the clang"r lies. \Ye might hav" an oppcrtunity m·{en on the motion for adjournm,mt. hut ' e do not know what is going to happen whon Supply comes on to-

IJfr. Sumner.

morrow, and we may not have another oppor· tunity of di~Jussing it. I was just pointing out that the keadinr~- daiiy paper -,avs that this io an important m;,ttcr, and it should be dis­cus.-c.••l, and it h :>..s nev-er he n discussed.

The SPEAKER: Order, order! The matter before the Hous-e is that my ruling be dis­a~-rccd wirh, and in any remarks that th+• hon. wember makes he has gDt to address himself to the point. The point is wheth:r the ruling I gave is in accordance with the Standino­Ordcrs of this House or not. "'

. :\ir. SUMNER: I do not think your ruling IS m . agreement with the Standing Orders. Stanchng Order 130 r-eads as follows:-

A mot,i;_ '1 for the adjournment of the House other than the usual motion to tPrminate the bitting' of the House :~t the end of the business of t!JC day shall not be ent.er_ta.med 6\f~ept for the purpose ot" debating a­defimte matter of nrgent public importance, the f<Ubject of which has first been stated to Jir. Speaker in writing.

That ha,, been complied with. Then it goes on-

Any such motion shall be proposed by the mover ·without de hate in the first instnnc , hut V shnJI not be put h ~•lr. Speaker nnle~s five other membt>,rs at least rise in their vlaces to snpport i1.

I tak-' it in all s~riousnc,,s that if your ruling is ~pheld to-daY, and it is quoted as a preccd<:~nt 1n da.ys tJ COlTif', it \vill bo a vcrv bad thin.rr for the mi~Iority in this House, wh~ever they c;,ay be. \\ <:~ do not knm,- but what the position to­morrow may not. be changed, and I oay un­hesltatmgly that If members voted irrespective of pa.rty to-night your ruling would never stand a show.

~Ir. KERR (Barcoo): The hon. junior mem­b<>r for Brisbane South mov<>d that this House ?o a.djourn on a matter of urgent public Importance, and I noted that yDu, Sir, did not s!ate your ruling. but you gave us your deci­sion that the matter could be dealt with to­rnorrow, "\vhen \V€ ot into Comrnittec of Supply. ~\s one who has been in the Cham· bcr for a !lUmber Df years. and clowly watched any motion for a.r!journment. I can state, with­Dut fear of conti adictiDn, that the acljoiurn­ment of the Hou'e ha., not been abu,ed. Soo­sions have l a,- ... ,d when the adjournment of the I-1<1 use has not been moved. As has been .;lwwn by Hansard and by'' May.'' the rnnon­sibility daes not rest upon the Speaker, -but upon the member whD proposed -the motion, and the five 1f10rnbers who ri~'·3 in their places to support him. The lwn. member for South Bris! a.ne moved the adjournment of thD House last 'c ,1ion to C'Jnsider the financial relations boh\·con the FNlcr,•J and State Parlia1,1ents, and it ba.s ht'"2ll sho1.vn this afternoon from I-Ianst. rd that the Pr{'n1icr quite a;rre:Jd \vith the attitude t(l.lrcn up by the Speake" then, and that the rcqxmsibility rested on the five rnemL~· ·s "",Yho ro:3c in their plac~?s to RUpport the rn°m1-3r \vho n1ovcd the adjournn1ent of the llouse. As m-emb'f'rs, w,g_ ought to con­<?r, c our rights in this Chamber, and \V€ con­sider thos-e rif:-hts are being interfered with in the dcc:_,ion you gave this afternoon. The point is that if a nwjority in this Chamber carries the vDt<' which will he taken on your ruling·, future Dccupants of the chair will quot,P tl1a.t r~ a rrec.er1cnt for ta,king- upon th€mceln's th0 responsibility of deciding -vheth •r a, 1nattcr is of sufficient urgent public ir:"''nrtance or net. But you d·o nQt take that posihon. Y on shelter ycurcelf hehind another position; you get behind a kopje like a Doer. You quite agree tha,t. it is a matter of public importa.nce, and no 1wn. member, on what­ever side he is sitting, can come to any other

Jl£otion for AdJournment. [4 AuGusT.] JJ.Iotion for AdJournmtnt. 579

oonclusion than that it is a matter of vital importance to the people of this Sta.te that we should dis•!m-3 the financial position as be­tween the Commonwocdth and the States. The hon. member for Charters Towers asked, \Vould not our Premier be in a ridiculous position if he \\as sent down to J\lelbourne without having· first heard the opinions of members of th'B Chamber? Parties are very evenly divided', and it cannot be said that any party in this House, whichever side they are on, can claim to have all the knowledge on those matters. a.nd I claim that wB have mem­bers on this side--

The SPE i.KER: Order ! I wish the hon. mernbor '""''Juld n1akA n1oro clear the connec­tion that I suppose exists bot·,, 30n hi' remarks and the question before the Rous\). (Laugh­ter.)

Mr. KERR: I will make it clear that I think your ruling ought to be disagreed with.

The SPEAKER: Orclter ! I hope the hon. member will do it at thA 'very earliest oppor­tunity, hoco,uo.e I have certainly had a vor.v great deal of difficulty in percBiving the. con­nection between his remarks aad the motwn.

GoVERXMEKT MEMBERS: Hear, hea,r! and laughter.

Mr. KERR: l maY han' to repeat it again for vour benefit but' I was pointing out, bir, that" it was 1wcc~sary-and that was the reas?n for the motion of the hon. member for Tins­bane South--that the financial situation chould be discussed, so that the delcr;ate from this Chamber should be, seized with the opinions of the representatives of the people -of t~is State'. You, Sir, have qUJte agreed w1th tne urgency of i he motion, but no!nted out that there would be ample opportumty to-morrow. But tn-morrow may never come. Then there i'' this dang·cr in your decision-you _are creating a precedent. In a very s~ort tn;w v.e may have another Speaker in tne cha1r. \Ve mav have a general eleot;on shortly, and you ma"y not occupy that chair, but you are crc.•,tinrr a precedent that will be on the recordsh of the House for all time; and, there­fan', I V·''l'Y strongly object to you~ ruling.. I have :no apolo,:i(-L, to rnake for voting _?-ga1nst vour decision beca.u,e I c0nsider that y,,mr ~ulinq- j,, \VrDI~g-. \V,, hav':: had. the rulings of :Mr. ~ucaker Co•dm and the ru!n'~s of the late l\Ir. Sp-eal~2r Leahy, and your ruling i~ in direct opposition to the rulings of prev1ous Speaker . I shall,. therefore, h'.''Y much plea­sure in voting agu1nst your decl' Ion.

Mr. LAXD (flalo,me}: I wish to say a few words on this question. I intend to support the motion of the hon. member for South Bri.-bane, and I do not apologise for ,o doing. I think if there is ono man in th', House more than anoth,•r who ought to kn•)W how to admini~ter the Standing Orders, it is yo~rs0lf. I c::n~:::ider vour decision is \vrong-, ano you have admitted it. You allow, in the first pLce, that thi·, matter is of sufficient public irnyort.ance, and th~:·n you say we can. dcba~e it to-morrow. That in it>e!f. I cons1dcr, ,, quit.o sufDcient roason for me· to support the motion. I think we should stand up for our rights in this House.

::\1:r. Bow•,rA;;: After the rragging experience we have had in the past.

J\Ir. L~\ND: There is no doubt, that the minmih- should look aftc:' their

[9 p.m.] own interests, because. if they rlo not, tho majority will soon

show them that they are in a hopeless position. The Premier stated that thB Standing Order

could be abused by fivo or six members. Now, I consider that the hon. gentleman himself was trying to override tho Standing Order.

J\lr. BmnrAN : It has never been abused yet.

:VIr. LAXD: Ko. it has never been abused yet, but whether it has been abu·ed or not ha, nothing to do with the question at present beforo the House. You have given a ruling that I disagree with, and I intend cheerfully to vote that that ruling be disagreed with.

Mr. WOODS: I am not going to take up the attitud,, adopted by several hon .. members who have opoken. The hon. member for Faqsifern, the hon. member for Bowcn, and the hon. member who moved thic motion, all expreeoed regret at, hanng to vote against your ruiing. Now, I have no reason to regret tho vote I intend to give. I am Snclined to think that this motion ha' not been mm·ed one moment beforo its time. The motion that was sub­mitted to you hy the hon. member for Bris­bane South reads as follows:-

I beg to move the adjournment of thr~ House in O!'der to draw attention to the urge.,t nP-tld of~ 'tti:ng apart a day for tile purpn:,e of discu.:;.sing the timn1chl relations between the States and the Oommonwe;~Jth.

Upon that motion being submitted to you under the Standing Orders, you agreed-you must have agreed-you must have been per­fectly satisfied in your own mind that it was in order, otherwise you, as Speaker, wonld ha\"O notifit cl the hon. member who gave you the notice in writing of his intention to move it that you would bo inclined to rule it out of order. But you did not do that. From your pla-cB in the chair, as the hon. member for Barcoo said just now, you did not shelter your-df behind the Standing Orders-you sheltered yourself behind the statement you made to this Chamber. You admitted that the matter was one of m·gent public import­ance, and, if you were prepared to make that admission as Speaker of this AssBmbly, then it was your bounden duty to allow the motion to bo moved, and to allow five other members to risB in their places in support of it. According to our Standing Orders, I claim that that was your bound on duty. If you ·,,ere prepared to admit-as you have done in your own defence on one or two occasions during the debate­whether that is the right proceduro for a Speaker or not 'is a rnatter for your ow·n con­sideration~during th~ ten years I have been in this Chamber, it is the first time that I have ever heard a Speaker, after giving ~ ruling, get up and attempt to defend his action with members of this Chamber. The reason that you gave for your ruling was one that I, at all events, cannot understand. You have told tho House that the reason you ruled the motion out of order wn s for tho purpose of allo,,·ing it to be di:;cu~··,r:d on a rr1otion that stands on the bu .. ineFs-pa.per for to-mm-rm•r. The hon. member for Charters Towers gave two or threo very pertinent il!m,trations, and I want to give a.nother. Only to-day a deputa­tion came from the electorate of the hon. membGr for Lockycr to intervievv a certain Minister. The member for the district declined to introduce the deputation. and they had to fall back upon the hon. member for Rosewood. Had it not been for the hon. mcrnher for Rosev .. ood, that deputation might have been told "Leave it over till to-morrow." That is just' the position. Your stand in this matter is to "leave it over till to-morrow." But how do 1"C know whei,hcr those hon. g-entlemen will be on the Treasury bench to-morrow? How do we know whether you will be in the

Mr. Woods-]

580 Motion for Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion for Adjournment.

Speaker's chair to-morrow? How do we know that a cho nze may not take place in this Chamber: How do we know that the hon. member hr Fitzro) may not be un the Speaker's chair, or a weak Speaker-a Speaker who mav be under the dominance of the Pre­mier? i would not like to say that you are, Sir.

The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ber is making- a speech in a tone that ehould not be adopted when an hon. member i" re­ferring to the Speaker. I do not care tD interfere when an hon. member is criticising myself, but I feel it my dnty to tell the hon. member that it is a speech which dDec not re­flect much credit upDn him as a. member.

Govli:RNi\IENT 'H~;Mmms: Hear, hear!

The SPEAKER: If the hon. member in­tends to imply, by his suggestion, that a Speaker may be under Hw dominance of the Premier, that I am under the dDminance of the Premier, then I can only tell him that thero is no justification for uch a sug'_ €stion.

GoVEH:-;r?IENT ).1EMBEHS: I-I oar, hear!

}.Ir. \YOODS: I have made no such -ugges­tion; and. a.s far as my tone a'1 a men1ber in thi:3 Chamber is collccrnt-d-_:_

~lr. I(EXNA: That is your O\Vn businc', ,.

01r. \YOODS: I am not c:oinc. to a.sk either the Speaker or any other member of the House vc;mt tone I am to adopt as a member of this H-ouse, c_~> lon~;· a3 I conform to the Standing Orders.

The SPE~\I(ER: Order! r\~ ell. I am lJound to tnll the hon. member no•- that he i.s not complying· with the Standing: Orders, and that he will have to addre,;s the Speaker in a suffi­ciently r<o)ectful way.

GOVEcKldcXT :\IPIBERS: Hear. hear!

The SPEAKEH: If tho hou. member does not do I shall have to give a ruliw,·. Of cour~e, hon. m-c1n~ "'er 1nay t-.Jce hi:J O\vn cour:·.i_' v;ith re·.l,arcl to that ruling; but vvhat I dccire him to do now is to confine himself strictly to the question before the House.

"'lr. KEJ',"XA: I rise to a point of order. I de -ire to understand clearly whether you object to the tone in which an hon. member may a.ddrc''s the House 'I Is it necnssary in futuw that a member, to be in order, must adopt a. c.!rtain tone when addres:ing yDu? I ehould like a definite ruling on that point, Sir.

The SPEAKER: I call upon the hon. mem­ber for \Voothakata to resume his speech. {Laughter.)

GOYERKolENT i\lE1iBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. WOODS: I sincerely hope that what­ever remarb I may make during the rest of the time I may speak will not ruffio your feeling·. I have no intention to ruffie your feelings in i.he f lightest degree, ":nd I shall endeavour, as I have end0avoured smce I have be0n a member of this Hous<', to keep within the Standing Orders. \Vhen I get outside the Standing Orders, it will be your duty to pull me up; but I feel sure that so far I have not gone outside them. I am giving reasons why I am in duty bound to support the motion that your ruling be disagreed with. Your ruling practically takes away the individual rights of members as representatives of the people of Queensland, and I maintain that it should not be in the power of the Speaker to go against the will of the people's representa-

[ .M r· Woods.

tives in determining whether a matter is "a matter of urg-ent public importance." You yourself admitted that this particular matter was a matter of urgent public importance; but you wanted the hon. member for Brisbane South and this House to defer discussion on the matter till to-morro\v, and to mix it up with another motion which may crop up to­morrow, and which may not come on at all. The public Press has stated that this House is going to adjourn on Thursday night for a fort­nig-ht--practically nineteen days.

An Hoxm-nABLE MR;mER: Make it three months.

Mr. \VOODS: The hon. gentleman who occupies the position of Minister for R.ailways says, " 11ake it three m on the •. " If your ruling. Sir: is going to be upheld by this House, then the sooner Parliament is wiped out the better. It is the dutv of hon. mem­j~ rs-it is n1v dutY, at anv rate-t,o endeavour to prot0ct \Yhat little rigllts representatives o£ the people havE' in this Chamb"r. As the House is at prc ,ent constituted. the members of the minorit~ have very f.e"\v rights and very littl0 power: and I hole! that it is our dut.:v to pres~ rvo those rig·hts and that power, and I. for one, shall have very much pleasure in supporting· the n1otion that your ruling be di•<tgreed with.

Questio;;-That the rdinq: of J\lr. Speaker be disagreed with (J:lr. Aircjl'.s motion)-put; and the House divided:-

:J'I:r. Ail'P't Allcn Bar her

, Blair , Bov:Jun.n , Ooyr' , Don :las , Han~ilton

II:u .1aere , Uerhert~on

AYES, 32.

, Hnn~cr~ .T. ~:T. , Huxham

.TODfl'~

]!Ir. Leunon ,. Lf'"ina , )fann , "J'Iau-lmn ., 3Iav , ::\IeLarhlau , ::\Iitchell " srulcahy

2'Inl!an , 2\lnrphy , XcYitt , Paynb ,. RYland

Kenn:1 , rt'tllln8r ., Kon \Ym~tanleY

Land , '\\-cods ~

Teller, : )Jr. 31urphy and ~\lr. '\Yoods.

XoEs, 33. ~ir. Appcl

, , Annstrong , Bcu"if'·, G. P. , JJiirncs, "",'-.H. , J.,trto11 , Brennan , Oottcll " Cowrtp , C:ribb , Den}mm ,, Pm·syt.h ,, Fox ,, Grant , Gray'-Oll n Gnnn , IIam·an , Hawthorn

:l-fr. Hunter, D. , Jack,:on , 1\:idston , 3J~tckintosh , 1Iaxwcll ,, )ioore , Pagr>t , Petrie , Philp , Rankin , Somerset , Stodart , Swayne

Thorn ,, '' nlker , ·white

Tellers: "Ir. Swayne and :lir. Walker.

PAIRS,

A.yes-11:r. Jenkinson and Mr. Redwood. Noes-11r. Keogh and Mr. Roberts.

Question resolved iu the negative.

The announcement of the numbers was received with Government cheers and Opposition counter cheers.

Special AdJournment. [4 AuGusT.] Special AdJournment. 581

SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT.

THE PREMIERd' CONFERENCE.

The PREMIER (who on rising was received wrth Government chr ers) said : I beg to move-

That the Ho ... tse, at its rising at the termimLtion of the sitting appointrd f<~r Thursday, the 5th instant, do adjourn until 'l'ue~<1ay, the 24th instant.

In moving that motion, hon. members know quite well that 1t has been agreed Letween the Fedenl Government <tnd the severs] State Go­vernment, to hold a conference.

Mr. CoYNE AND OTHER OPPOSITION l\IE)IBERS: No, no!

Mr. McLOAHY: \Ye know nothing about it.

The SPEAKER: Order, order !

The PRE'YIIER: In an important matter like this it might be as well if therA was aR lit~le interruption as possible. I won't detain the House very long.

Mr. BLAIR: Stick to facts. Mr. MuRPHY: As long as yon like. Mr. FORSYTH : He'll take his own time.

The PREMIER: It would be as well if I was allowecl to make just an ordinary padi>1mentary statement of the position. It has been ''greed by the Federal Government and by the several State Governments to holrl a conference to dis­cuss and, if pos,ible, to come to a mutual under­standing concerning the rearrangement of the financial relations now existing- between the Commonwealth and the St,tes. \Vhatever other things we Ina.y di'<lgree ~tbont in this Hmwe, I think it will be admitted inside the Hou'e and outoide thA House thao the importance of the subject will amply justify any trouble or any inconvenience inevitable to attain or likely to result in a settlement of thi' important matter. Unquestimnbly no AustraJin,,. public affair so involveil the solvency, the etticiency, and, in my opinion, the very continuance of the State Go­vernnlents.

GovERNi\JENT l\h;MBEllS : Hear, he~r!

The PRE:VIIER: Of home rule. (Loud Opposition lctughtAr.)

Mr. BOW)!AX : That was your cry at the last elections.

Mr. Mc:LOAHY: You had us on that once before.

The SPEAKER: Order, order !

The PRJ~Y!IER: Indeed, there is much more in this question than just the position of the States. In my opinion it involvPs the develop­ment and lasting prosperity of the whole of the c(Jmmonwt,alth.

GovERNMEXT MEi\!BEHS: Hear, hear!

The PREMII~R: The matter is not only im­portant, but it iR urgent that a Rettlernent of the question should be • oon brought about. Some eighteen rnonths fron1 now, if no rearrangen1ent is come to mettnwhile, the whole matter falls into the bands of the Federal Parliament. That is, one of the claimants t<> a puticnlar fund be­comes the supr.Jrne judge as to the disposal of that fund.

Mr. MuLI.AX : So they "hould. They <tre the maRten;.

The PREMIER : I say that is an outrage on every f~ense of f~t.irness.

GovEit:\MEXT ME"IBEHS : Hear, hear ! Mr. i\IA:-.:N : They are elected by the people.

'l'be PREi\1IElt: It is at varianc'' with all the traditions of the people. Our S811'8 of pcopriety would be shock· .l. (OppoRitinn l:tughter.)

An HoxouRABLE lVIEMBEI\: Impossible.

The PREl\:IIEH : Our sense of vropriety would be shocked if a judge-the snn11esc judicial officer we h.i.ve, ar jn~tice of the V ·:we-should sit on the bench and adjudicate on his own case,

Mr. AIREY: The people adjudicate.

The PHEMIER : Every person would cry out against it.

Mr. Ll'cr\'XON : Clause 87 of the Constitution provided for it.

The PRBMIER: I consider th:1t it would be a calamity if in this important matter--

Mr. BI,Am: You did not get down.

The PREMIER: So grossly unwise a prin­ciple should prevail. The resul~ ,w<~uld be th":t the Australian Stated would SlllK mto a conch­tion of !llere mendicants on the bount.y of the Federal Parli<tment-a Parliament tbat they themlel ves ere a ted.

Mr. MANN: Most injudicious language to use.

The SPEAKER : Order, order !

The PREl\IIER: While I claim that the Federal Parliament, as one of the claimants on this common fund, should not have the right to settle the problem just according to thPir own wishes-accordu>g- to their own Ideas-I do not claim that the States should have the right to settle it. They also would be in the same position- judges in their own case. . In my opinion, the right peop~e to settle this ma,tter are the people of Australia. (He>J,r, bear!) The only sound or fair or rational way of "ettling this im'JOl'tant matter is to remit it by referendum to the ;~eople at the coming ]'ederal elections.

GovERNMENT l\IEliiBJms : Hear, he '.r! Mr. KESKA : Trust the people. Mr. RYLAND : You cannot do it.

The SPEAKER : Order, order !

The PREMIER: My idea of seeking a settle­ment is for the several Governments, if po•­sible, to come to an understanding on the matter and 1 metJtinn this 1 o show the nrgency of the :natter now, because if the queRtion is to be remitted to the people-if the people of Aus­tralia are to be given a voice in this 1natrer, the ::tO'reem~-nt n1n.;:t be come to no·v, to enable the }~deral P::1rliament, in the pre<:.ent session, to carrv a Bill to talw a referendum on the sub­ject at 'the coming elections.

GovEHNMEXT l\1E11IBERS: Hear, he<tr!

The PREI\IIER: Therefore it is of the utmost importance. The question i' not only one of the greatest importance, but the urgency .of the matter if it i8 to be ,ettled in the only WIOe and impa;tfal way-settled by the people i.hem elves --the urgency of the queotion is therefore appa­rent, became if it. is not settled b0tween now and the coming :Federal e!tctions, the Feder.~l members who are then electeJ, the P"" er wd fall into their bands on the 1st ,Jannmy, 1911.

i\Ir. iHANX: The power is given to them by the people.

The PHEi\liER : 'fhel'e is only one oppor­tunity of the people of Austn1lia being con­suite j,

Mr. 1\Iur,r,AN: They represent the people.

'rhe l'HE~ITER: Only one onJnrtunity of the people of Australia being consulted before the evil is done, that is at the coming :Federal election e.

l\Ir. HAHDACl<E: Connect this with the Pre­rniers' U(mference. How doe") it brar on it?

The SECRETARY FOI< ::\liNER: Let him make his own speech.

Hon. W. Kidston.]

582 Sperial Adjournment. ~ASSEMBLY.] Special Adjournment.

The PREMIER: So that I claim, if a wise and equitable roettle!nent of this important

mattee is rl.Pf.lired, the urgPncy f,f it [9.30 p.m.] lies in the necbsity of coming to an

af!re,-rtwnt in time to enable the Federal P:uli><ment to p::ss a Hill to l>l'Ovide for H refPrendum at the conting Federal elE'ctions, andt<o give the people of ~1.nRtraliann opportunity of R ··tt,ling it. I -:;ubrnit that under the circun1~ stancl:'s no one \V~ll H~riously question that it is desirable that a cnnference shnuld be held.

Ho~OURABLE ::'11BllllEHS: Hear, hear !

The PRE:\liER: 1 admit that it may be diffi­cult to cDme to [{,11 agree111eut; I tven admit that the conference tnay nnt come tl) an agree­ment; but it cannot be dc>nied tha•. if it be pos­sible to corne to an agrPemeut in tbe way sug­gested, it is rnanifestly a desirable thing-not in the intere.sts of the Stn.te, not in the interest8 of the Commonwealth, but in the interesls of the whole of Austr«lia.

GovEm:;\JE~T ~IE>rBEHS : Hear, hear !

The PRE:IUER : 1<;ven the Labour party admit that it is " desirable thing to come to an agreen1ent,. bt>c tu~~e thny then1sdvt's have pro­po;;ed a Las1s for agreement.

An OPPOSITION J'.1E~!BER: A fair basis, too.

The PRE:\liER: I think it will nlso be nd­mittAd tha.t., in spite of the prcwtical difficulty in matters of detail-it will also be admitted by those who are intimate with the questioll that the prospect of a set.tlement is more hor>:.ful than ever jt was bt-fore. The desire fur agr\-e1n~nt b3t\"veen the State3 and the Oummonwt<:Llth has bet~n growing-Rlowly growinp; at fir~t; but any­one who ha.s atter.ded as ma.ny conferences as I have clotH-', and anvonn who has paid attention tc: \vhat those conferenc.::-.: have cbne, will recog­llis,~ that there ha~ bet n u, gTowillg desire to attain" ~etlement.

1Ir. OoYNE: Th' Ccmferences hnve done nothing.

The PRE:HIER: Tbe conferences have done a great deal. A simple man like the hon. mem­ber for \Varrego may "'Y they bave done nothing bec",use thP.': have not done everythiu;;. That is a very hasty uud in·\dequ[lte jurlgme~1t on a mat.'er of this kind. \V here sevvn c;eparate p~rties have each a clairn on ~L com1non fund, \V here the matter h .s exercised the ingenuity of the ablest financioJ men in Australia, it is not very remark­able that an a(ireement was not come tc> at once. The v,tlue of the conferences alre1dy held has been the attention they b we called to the mtttter by the discussion over >md over again of the diffi­culties that. rc.1lly stand in the way of a settle­ment, and it is because the repeated discussion of those difficulties has thrown so much lir:ht on the matter that there is now a very fair hope of,, settlement being a.rrived nt.

1Ir. KENNA: Upon what lines?

The· PREMIER: And knowing intimately most of the men who hnv" tftken part in reeerit conferences, I do not he,itate to say that there is a growing desire-I think an ·honest nnd sincJ~re desit'e~to have this matb:•r settled on a fair and perm·tnent footing; because I think everyone begins to recngnise how n1uch it means to Australia. I say that public men diBcnssing this question with an hone"t and sinct·re dhire to agree on the matter i:; the first step towards that settlement-becnu.se everyone rec< guises that thA re"11 Sl'•tt1enlmlt of this que:-Jtion n1eans the consumrnation of ferleration.

GovEHN:IfEXT :\IEcHRERS : Hear, hear !

(Hon. W. Kidston.

The PRE:\IIER: It will put federation on a sound and las~ing footing; all the little troubles that take place betw.·en the :Federal Govern­mRnt and the i:ltate Governments will be small things once this large trouble i:-:: satisfactorily settled. I think, further, that it is eminently desirable that. Qn:eensl:.md .hould be represented at that conference. GovEncs~IEXT J\IEMBERS: He.1,r, hear!

0PPOSI1'IOX 1IKUIBEW3 : By a good rnan. You were an anti-fPcl.

The PREJ\IlER: I chim that the people of no State in the ci)CiltrlOrnv~~alth have so much to gain by main taing their right to home rule.

0PP0SITIO~ :MEMBER~ interjecting·,

The SPE.\KER : Order, order !

The PHE~IIER: Or 'o mnch to !o'e by feebly letting their right tu home rule be filched from them.

OPPOSITION l'viE}!llEHS: Oh, don't! Spare us !

The PREI\IIER: 1 do not wisl], in moYing a motion uf tbis kind, which is in its form si1nply a mo~ ion: to provide ftlr the ctdjournment nf the House--I do not wish to raise dicputable or acrim~>ninus a~pects of this nmtter, or I could show tlw,t there is very serious danger to onr ri~hts b;.•ing invarl~"r1 and nltin:atfJy d~stroy.ed unlt'.">:~ we (' ,n fl.!:-~l~t<n' thern-If our hnan01al solvency }tnd indPpe'!ldence are dp:,.,troyed.

J'.'Ir. KE:>;XA: Can't you tell u" the lines you are going- on ?

Mr. MAK~: J\Iore champagne.

Other Ho~oURABLE ME:IIBEHS interjecting-, The SPEAKER : Order, ,,rdcr !

The Pl{E:\IIER: An'l I say tlwt no State in the Co1nmun we'"'tlth-if I, p~:-rbap3=, except \V hat I believe to be the gre11t coming Sta,>e ,,f \V,_stern Australia~ I s.rv tlJat no State atHi the people of no State in thP ·cnrnnwn 1:,·eaLb ha.ve 80 much to gain, so much to profit by f'flicient loc-1l self­government, as the people nf QU\ ens land. I exceedingly regru; in a rnatter of this kind to notice the t>me of some of the interjections.

Mr. BLAIH : J'IIore tone !

The PRE:\IIER: Surely if ever there wns a time in the history of Queensland when faction should be rtshn.rned to lift its hend, it is now.

GovER~MENT J'IIE}fBERS : Hear, hear !

The PRE~TIER: If ever there was n t.irne in the history of Queensland when tbe public men of Queensland shnnld 1mdre an earnest attempt to get abnvp. n ll perf'onal feeling, :\nd even all party feelinc:, I s>ty that time is now. And the people of Queensi.Hlfl, if they are knocked out in this matter through personal and party feel­ing, will bav v,·ry much reason to curse the present Parliament of Queensland.

GOVER~MENT ~V1Eil!Blll\S: Henr, hear!

J'vir. BoWMAN: You engendered that when you came from the old country.

An 0PPOSITIO~ Mic:lfllEll: They will have good rea:ion to curse vou.

I\fr. KENNA :-Yon won't agree to :mything. Mr. BLAIR : No chance.

The SPEAKER : Ord<·r, order!

The PREMIER : I claim that however we tnav difft-'r on small matters, however much \VB

may differ even on gre,,t matters, either poli­tically or persnnally, howevr,r we may differ ns to the details of tl1c• ,;ettlement tb~f. we individu­ally would like to "e", there shonld be no differ­ence as to this point : that it is desirable tba t

Special AdJournment. [4 AUG!JST.] Special Ad;journment. 583

·Queen-land should he represented at the confer­enc", and that we should tJ y to g-et some rational and b'lsiness-like s•cttlement of this important matter.

Mr. LE:s'NON: You have been offered several settltrrwnts.

Mr. BLAIR: This is the seventh.

The PRg:\HER: There is an impnrtantaspect which-I hop,e hon. members will not be offended at mv Raying- Rn-hon. m em her-: n1ak,• a. mistake abou't. \Vhile I will be only too delighte<l to 'hear opinions of h1m. memb-r~1 ~1s b, wl:a~ they think is the bu;t basis of a ~ettlement, l think they will readily under.<tand that this i' not the ioime nor the plac0 to atte•npt to settle the ques­tion in nny hqrd-r~nr1-fa-4t, way.

HmWL'RARLF: }fr;)rm;Rs : Hear, hear !

The PREMIER: And 1 wonld like to soy something- more. This C()nferenc~~ cannot settle the que-tion.

OPPOSITION :'\IEJIBERS : Hear, bear!

Mr. BLAIR: Then what is the use of it?

Mr. HA11ILTO!' : You ought to give us some inkling of your ideas, and see what you can do.

The PRE:\HER: You hrwe sat there all day to-day, ~fr. Speaker, and y<>u have heard it said that this House should give instrnctions to the M:inisters who go clown to the c mference.

l\Ir. KEXXA: Certainly.

The PREMIER: Some members seem to think that they should not send "' representative thPre, hnt that they should send a delegate there.

0PPJSI'l'ION Mic:IIBERS: Hear, bear!

The PTIE:\IIER: And tie the delegates' hands and feet.

OPPOSITION J\(E)!BERS : :Hear, bAar! :'VIr. BLAIR : That is the only way of making

sur'' of you. (Laughter.) The PRE.\UER: And they will be able to

me~t rer:re:-;·'nta.tives frorn the other Stated and gh·e reasnns and listen t(J rea.--on~, Lut, having their hands and feet tic·d, ttJ-,·y c~nnot do any­thing except as they are instrnc•ed here.

Mr. BLAIR: 'What right have you to do it on your own?

The PI~E:'YliER : I do not hesitate to say that if th tt were dnne by the whole seven Parliaments from whom representati\'es were sent then it would only result in a ridiculous fiasco.

Mr. BLAIR : \V by should you do it ?

The PREYI:IER: If any settlement is to be hope• l f,•r, it c:1n ouly be by the repreo,entatives of the different St:~tes anrl the Commonwealth giving anrl taking with one a not her anf1 attetnptw ing to arrive at a c nnpromise likely to be accept­able l>y the people of Australia.

:\Ir. BLAIR: \V hat constitutes a representative? Mr. D. HUXTER: Yuuarenotajudge. (Govern­

ment laughter.)

'I'he PREMIER: I think thnt anyone who nnrlerRtands the matter at all understands this quite well: that representatives who meet in lVIelbrmrne :tre rneeting there tn reas Jn \Vith one another and to be re:>~oned with.

Mr. BowMAN : That was not the attitude which you and Oarrut hers touk up.

Mr. CoYNE : ]\;fake suggestions.

The PREYUER: They can only agreP upon some propc-,·tl that is likely to meet with the ap;mw;,l of the people of Ar·str-nlia. They have all go~. different opinions. The \Vhole seven Parlhunents, and se\'en Goverrnnent.-. repre~~enh~d .there, have, in a n1easure, separate interests,

and the difficulty of agreeing i,; done away with by giving and taking with Pll8 anoth,.,r to come to ::t cnn1n1orj (;'(Jinion. I think if they can succeed by reu.soning \vit.b onfl annHtPr, nnd ~n gi \'ing and taking, so that in the end they will comA to a cnn1mon ngref'lne-nt as to what, tm the whole, will he the best thinv, then it will go a very lon(T wr1y in g-et· in~ the .Fer1Pral Par)iament to adopt it. And, more than tll'Jt, it will go a very long way with thP peoplP of Auscralia.

GovEHNM!INT ME)!BEI;S: Hear, bear!

The PREMTEH : If that c•mference can come to a.n 3greement a:-~ to th9 be~t n1Pthod, and the Federal Par:iament passes a Bill and remits it to the peuple of Atl'tralia to finally settle, I have no rlonbt at all that the v'l.<t majority of the wnp1e will be heartily glad to accepc such a settlement. (Hc,ar, hear!)

Mr. BLAIR : What sattlement? \Vhat kind of settlement?

The PRE:'\IIER: Hon. members twit me with what kind of settlement I want.

nir. BLAIR: Surely we are entitled to know something?

Mr. KEXNA: Give us your idea.

Mr. MuRPHY: Speak frankly.

The PREMIER: It is not knowledge that these h(m. gentlemen are tbir>ting for. \Vhat they want is some proposal so th"t they might discuss it and "":V th·lt it is a very had proposal. (Laughter.) I kuow the hon. £ ent!.-men.

1\Ir. BoWMAN: And they know you. 1\ir. HARDACRE: It proha'>ly would be a bad

proposal. The PRE:\riER: I could lay somr, nf the hon.

gentlemen ont quite well, because I could say that the propos"l they moke is an excell•cnt one, and put them in a quandary. But that would not matter with the hon. gentlemen ot all. It would not 1natter what I propoRef~, tlwy wnulfl. say that, it was a, very lead proposal. They have no propooal about this or anything ebe.

l\fr. ,J. M. HUNTER: \Vhat is yoar proposal? Let us have it

The PRE:\IIER: I am getting away frol_ll m:v pnint, a.nd I do not want to get away, but I t is 'difficult to ke•-p to the point when there are so many interjections, particularly when a man likes interjection,. -while I am not going to f-'ubn1it to this House any ent-n.nrl-dried. vropo~al, I am gc>ing to sngge.:t to tbe Home, as most people know quite well my ideas on the mat­ter--

1\fr. HARDACRE: You have got so many.

The PREMIER: \Vel!, I am not going to say what I will have-that I will kwe tlmt and nothing but that-but I do '"·Y this : That from the knowledge we have of the working of the present system, the ideal that we ohould SfJek to attain in an:v rearrangement of nur different relations with the Commonwealth onr;ht to be based on thi3: It ought to trT to get security for the States. And it ought to give the lcrgest possible measure of liberty to the Common­wealth. (Hear, hear !) I louk on this matter not only as a member of a State Parliament but as an Austr:.lian.

GOVERcDIEXT ::\IEMBEHS : He>tr, hear !

The PRK'tiiER : I have :irl everywhere that it is my dr·,ire to RC'' established in Aus­tralia a strmJg central GovPrnn1ent. Anrl 1t 1s alw my desire to see financi .lly strong States. (Hear, hear!) And you c:tnnot get that unless

Hon. W.Kidston.]

584 Special ArJy'ournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Special AdJournment.

the States have some measure of security, and the present unrle,irahle restrictions of :Federal financ­ing are removed. (He.,r, hear !I

Mr. ]\TANX: You nn get tllat under the Braddon clause.

The PRE~IIER: The pr.'sent arrangement does not give the Conn11onv'lt>;.d1,h liberty. If the CotnnJun\vealth, uuder the pres•~nt at range~ ment, for thn most desirable purpose, wants to rais.... £250,000, it ha.; of nece~sitv tn r,1ise £1,000,000 before it can get that £2~0,000 for its own plupo::t"3.

Mr. 11IANN: If they raised it by a lanrl tax they would not.

'rhe PREYriER: At the pr'sent time the State, never know where they are~ or what amount of money th(·y are going tn rt-eei\e, until it is actually paid into tbe Tre~sury. In the fourth week of .Tnne tbi,, year the Qoeenshnd Trt:>asurPr did not know wln.t he was g(1ir1g to get from this fund.

:!Yir. BO\DIAN : But he got a pleasant surprise, all the sam<e.

The PRl~i\IIER: He dirl get a plea,ant snr­prise, and t.he year before that he got an unpleasant snrpri,e. It is not the amount that is the chif>f thing at all in this matter; it is not the amount that give4 the States security-it is the knowledge beforehand of what they are able to depend on from every sonrce of revenue in framing their Estimates. There i~ nothing of that kind just, now. The present arrangement, although it has had many advantages-and although I admit that unrler the circumstances in which it was instituted it was probably about the best that could have been madf'-is riot such as to recomn1eud a continuance uf it.

Mr. HARD ACRE: And you proposed to extend it ten years yourself.

The SPEAKER: Order !

The PREMIER : Bnt bad as the present arrangPlnent is it iR an infinitely better arrange­ment than the arrangement that will come into operation on the 1st of J anu,.ry, 1!!11, unless something- is donh 1neanwhile. 11he greate'"'t evil of tbi" present arrangement is the tirue limit in it-that it st"P' at the end of ten years. After that time, unle's some other arrangement is made, the States will have absolutely no secu­rity at all. The Federal Parliament from year to year or frorn tjme to tin1e 1nay increaRe or decrease the amount they give to the States without the States having any voice in the matter at nll, or any means of mal,ing them­selves secure. Kow, I think that the thing we should try to accomplish in this watter is to try to get a rnea,ure of 'ecnrity for the States, and to try to give the Connnnnwe t.lth Par­li~r:1ent a much larger measure of lib. rty in pro­Vldmg for the1r o"n financial needs.

GovEitKMENT ~IE:IIBERS: Hear, heart

The PRR:YIIgR: And afte" much d1scus,inn, and until l eee Flotn':.-'thlrg bf·tter, it i,ppm~ to me that a fixed pavmer:t per capita by the Common­wealth would give the larg<'t measure of security to the States, and at the sRrne time give freedom to the Commonwealth Parliament.

:!Yir. HAHDACHE: That was my proposal two years ago, and you would not have it. (Govern­ment. laughter.)

Mr. MGLCAHY: It is where he got the idea.

The SECRETARY FOR HAlLWAYS: A very good one.

The PREMIER: This is not my proposal at all. In ig not that I claim any originality for the

[Hon. W. Kidston.

propoRal. I have discussed, I think, all the propos--tls tbat have been mad·,.-at, least, tried to understand them all-and I arn quite williPg to gr->t more infonnntlon on tbe 1nat1er. I will be 'dt'lic;hted tn have more light on the matter, but, ~{\L far as I can 8e£', an undertaking by the Corntnon\n'n.lth tn pay a per capit:t amount to the State.:. vvnuld ~Jve f-ecnrity to thP States~ Am• m,., can >e at once that it will give secirrity to tr1c t\tate.s sn far a> it Qoes. .The amount may not \le lerge. I do not hesitate at all 1 o sav that I value this matter nf si cu­rity to the ":-;ta.tes so great),. that I wonlrl. be prepared to L,kA a much ~n·alJer snm pPr crq flta,. and settle our financial difficulties at once. ltJ would be a much wiser thing f<Jr Queensland; we would ((et ov·er onr difficulties and go ahead then. But that is n>>t tl,e uuly reconnuendation of it. The recuUJlll·dldatiun, fr0rr1 a. ~Federal point of view, is that it make·, the :Federal Parlian:ent comphJte m.tstertl in regard to their <>Wll finance,. They accept a fixed responsibility, just as the States have a fixed H;spollsibility at the present time in the interest on the pubhc debt. \Ve have a fix<·d responsibility which we c:umot escJ pe fron:, and the :Federal Govern· ment ,hould agne u[Jon alld accept a fixed respon­sibility. And after they r&i,e that amount then thPY will do 1 heir own financing without any consideration for the States at all.

:Mr. HAHDACHE: It. has taken you eight years tu come to that.

The PREI\liER : I claim that if 'orne such arrangement can be made, it will be a good thing for tbe States and a g< ocJ thing for the Cornmon­wPalth, and I will go a long way in the matter of amount--

Mr. ]1.1ANN: All cant. The l'REMIER : To secure such a satisfac­

tory settlement. Some people speak as if it is just a matter of amount. There are many people who ought tu know much better who speak as if the basis of the discussion ought to he how much can the Ccmmonwealth afford to pay to the State'. Kuw, I claim that that should not he the ba,is at all. I think the basis should rather be an honourable carrying out of the understanding on which federa.tiou was agreed to. GoVERN~mNT MEMBERS: Hear, hear

ThP PRE:viiER: At the time when the Aus­tralian States agreecl to federate, each one of them had the view that they had a fixed respon· sibility-the interest nn their public debt-and each one of them knew that thev nquired their Customs debt fnr the pnrpose ,;f en' blir1g them to meet that fixed redponsihility, nnd none of thell1 could hav8 nff1 n~ed at that time tn snr~ render their CnRton1s rlutiet-~. A;.: ~L rnattfr of fact, there i' not one Stnte in the Con nwnwealth which if they hod been told, "1f you federate YOU win lnse'the whole of your CustntnR dntiel:l," would have agreerl to fillY snch arnmgemPnt. GoVERX~JEN1' MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

The PREMIER: It wa·< 'imply imprac. tieable in tbe then financial ccndition of Ans­tr:Jia, aud it i:-> Equa.]Jy hnpracticable to~day­At the same tinw, thev did surrender exter_I· sive powers to the Commonwealth, and rt was necessary to do so. If the eentral Government was to be a stronp:, ,elf-existing GoYernment it hnd to have the exclusive Tight to dm!' with Cu>toms and Excise. _Even if we ·were to have inter-State freetrade, 1t was an absolutely neces·,ary thir g to hand over the exclusive prJWE'f'* of ( 1U.stnm:-; to ~he Feder:1 1 Go­vernrn• nt. There wonld have been no true federution with(1ut that, but under the circurrt­etances tho,t no State cnul<l do without its Custome rennue, and that the Commonwealth.

Special AdJournment. [4 AUGUST.] Special Ad_journment. 585

could not properly exist without complete con­trol of the Customs, the understanding was tha\ the States were to continue to get a share of the Customs duties. It was fir>t fixed at three­fourths of the Customs duties, and I think that the basis of di?cossion on this matt.~r should he what is a fair division of the Customs duties as between the States and the Commonwealth, remembering the understanding on which the States agrNld to federate.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: There are six States to one there, you know.

The PRE:\1IER : It was necessary that the CommonweaJth should ha\e the exclusive control over the Cnstoms duties, and it was equally

necessary that the 8tates should [10 p.m.] be assured of a share of those

duties. Various suggestions have been made as to amounts. It has been sn~gested that the pre'<ent three-fourth" of the net Customs duties which are paid over to the States should be altered to thre '-fifths, and I think it is some­where about that amount that agreement is likely to be come to. I suggested some time ago that the settlement might be on a P'r capita pay­ment to the Stateo. of £110s. per head.

Mr. LE:<>NON : That is too high. Mr. BmnrAN: Old-age pensions have to be

paid out of that, you know.

The PREMIER: I find that the average payments made tu Queensland by the Common­wealth during the last three years amount to £1Hi<. 7d. per capita, and it is curious to 'notice how steady the rise has been per head.

Mr. J. M. HuNTER: Is that for all Australia, or is it confined to Queensland.

The PRE::VIIER : I am only dealing with Queensland.

Mr. AIREY : That is unfair. Take the figures for all Australia. It will be the other way if you do-you know that.

The PREMIER : If I were to take the fiaures for all Au,tralia, it would not make" any difference.

Mr. J. M. HusTER: Oh! Yes it would. Mr. AIREY: It would make a big difference. The PREMIER : I am only pointin~ ouL that

the average amount returned to this State by the Commonwealth during the last three years was £116s. 7d. per head, and it would mean a very big reduction if we were only to receive £1 10s. per head.

The SECRETARY FOH RAILWAYS: It would mean .£280,000 per annum.

The PREMIER : Every shilling of reduction means .£225,000 on the population of Australia.

Mr. J. JYI. HUNTER : The old-age pensions have to come out of thab, you know.

The PREMIER: I do not want to be mis· understood in this matter. I do not want to be understood as putting forward a claim to £116s. or a claim to .£1 10s. or a claim to £1 5<. per head, and I would rather this House wnnld not attempt to make a hard-and~fast limit. It is very desirable that we should get a settlement because I do not heeitate to say that the worst settlement we are likely to get to-day will be much better than the best cettlement we are likely to get ten years hence. (Hear, bear!) So that I do not want to have anything that I say understooil as implying a fixed determination to stand np for this amount or for that amount. It is manifest to everybody that the representatives at the conference will have to give and take with

one another, only too happy if in the end the,­can corne to a n1utual underst~nding 'vhich will be approximately fair to the whole of Au>tralia.

JHr. TIIITCHELI, : Can you give us >tny ide<l of what you would be prepared to accept per capita?

The PRJ~MIER: I have told hon. members that I think it should be about £110s. I under­stand that the Premier of Tasrnanift io making a proposal of .£1 lh. 3d. per bead, which j,; a bout three-fifths of the pre,;ent collectiono per capita.

Mr. Bow:~rAN: They want some better con­sideration th>1n the other Statee.

The PRE11r:BJR: I do not sa,y that that would be an unreasonably hrge amount.

Mr. HARDACRE: You could not make it· the same for all the States, either. It would have to be a different amount for each State.

The PRE1HER: I think the onlv settlement possible is a oettlement which will.bo eqnal for all the States, with the exception of IV estern Australia. At our last conference it was agreed that \Vestern Australia should get an extra ,;urn of £250,000, and I very strongly supported that. I need not discuss the full reasons for it; but I think it is an equitable proposal. The extra payment was to be gradually reduced by £10,00(} per annum, giving time for the present abnormal conditions with regard to population in \VHt.;rn Australia to assimilate more with those of the Eastern States. The delegates from \Vestern Australia wEre very well pleased with th<l pro­posal. \Ve discussed the matter of Tasmania; but it was ultim<otely agreed lly 'fasmania and the other States that, with this provision for an extra payment to \Vest,rn Australia, it was approximately a very desirable thing. I would just like to remind hon. members that there are seven parties, each clajining a ::>hare out of w common fund.

Mr. HAMILTON: Two parties-the Common­wealth and the 8tates.

The PREMIER: l\' o. In the case of Western Australia they would not care to take the s~me share as the others-there ought to be a special arrangement made-and each of the States has some interest in the matter one way pr another. \Vhen you come to discuss the matter, the repre­sentatives of each of the States look at their own figures to see how this proposal is going to suit them and how the other proposal is go:ng to suit t'bem, and there must necessarily be sev<n different intere,ts to be met out of a cummon fund. If men a re to be loyal to their respective States, there mu't necessarily be a great deal of difficulty in con;tin~ to a mutual agreement. There is a growing recognition that the general interests of Australia as well as the interests uf the individual States are bound up incoming to an equitable settlement nf the matter, and that grow­ing recognition is paving the way fur a RettlemAnt; and I sincerely hope that whatever the details may be, the settlement will accomp1ish two things-that it will give security to the St<ttes, »nd that it will give a larger mr am re of liberty to the Commonwealth Parliament. in dealing with their own financial nefds. There are a great many detai!R in the matter as between the States ond the Commonwealth that I have not touched upon. I refrain from toucbinf( on them for the reason that the great question of the equitable division of the Customs revenue be­tween the States and the, Commonwealth Htands at the door of the settlement ot all the other questions involved between the States and the Commonwealth; and, if we can come to ~n aQreement about this-an agree1nent that will b~ accepted by the Federal Parliament, and will be submitted to the Australian people- all the

Hon. W. Kidston.]

586 Special Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Special Adjournment.

other difficult.ies that have attended the inaugura­twn and the early years of fedeuttion will easily be gut over, and will disappear.

:Mr. MDRPHY: \Ve have no objection to your going down.

The PREMIER : I am very sorry that we cannrJt diH.~uss thiS matter in this IIouse without those remarks, or rath8r without that class of remark. I would very n1uch rather that the leader of the Opposition, Mr. Bowman, was g?ing d0\Yn in my plac~~, if his going duwn would giVe a greatPr chance to secure a fair settiement of this matt or.

Mr. 111ANN : \Vhy noo send your real boss?

The PREMIER; Going- to Melbourne is a very trifling matter, but the settlement of this question is a very important mAtter not only for ~ueensland but for all Australia. It is a very Important matter for every one of us in our individual capacit.y as well as in our capacity as men::bers of this Honse, and that being the case, I tlnnk that every efiort should be m<tde-that no trouble should be spared to come to a fair and satis­factory settlement of this important matter. I shall not say much more on the subject. I have tried to explain the reasons wbv the conference is being held, the importance ami the urgency of it, and I sincerely hope that this Hou·.e, no matter what the person11l or party feeling of the moment may be, will not attempt to interff,re with Queensland being represented at the conference:

GovERNMENT JI.IE1!BERS : Hear, hear!

The PRE:\HER: Some hon. members may say that r.lthougb the Premier and the Treasurer have got to go to ::\felbourne, there is no reason why merrobers generally should not go on with the business of the country.

OrroSITIO~J :'tiE~!BEllS: Hear, bear !

The PHE:\HER: I :tm delighted to hear the welcome r bouts from the other si db of the Chamber-they havr shown such an anxiety to get on vdth husiness during the last fivP \VeP.ks, and I am sure they do not want a holiday for the show.

Mr. lYIGRPHY: \Ve ·,:ou!d take one if we wanted it.

The PRE:YIIER : \Vithout rliscmsing the matter at length, I may say th<>t the !•resent position ~m ply justifies the propo"al I have made to adjourn. A8 a matter of fac•, the other States and the Commonwealth propoRe to adjourn.

:Mr. Bow~fAN: For how long?

Mr. FoRSYTH: .A. fortnight.

The PREMIER: The Southern States are to adjourn for a week.

An HoNOGRABL!! ME~mrm: New South \Vales is ccdj ourning for a week.

The PREMIER: They can adjourn for a week quite well, but anyone from here attending the' conference, which HJeets on Friday, would have to leave on a :\:Ionday or Tuesd:w. The ~onference goes on into the next week lHr. Deakin, the Federal Prime :Yiimster, will meet the conference on the 1\Ionday, so that it will be the following Tuesday or \Vednesday before Ministers will be able to leave :Vlelbourne. It will b0 seen, therefore, that the minimum length of an adj:mrmnent has been asked for to permit the (.;\lleensland repre,·entati ve" to go to the con­ference. However members may resort to the old gag about cutting off King 'Chadh's h".1d. and •.vhatever party differences 1uay arise, I sincerely hope that members will show that they have r>n hnnest desire to protect the interests of Queensland in this mfttter, that they will think

fHon. W. Kidston.

it is a desirable thing that Queensland shonld be represented at the conference, and that they will agree to the motion which I now move.

Hol!OURABLE YIE}IBEHB: Hear, hear ! Mr. BOWMAN (Fortitude Valley): I am

opposed to the motion the Premier has submitted to the Chamber. The hon. gentleman has told us that this conference has been agreed to by the Federal and State Governments. One is entitled, after the remarks be has made, to criti­cise the relations between the States and the Commonwealth, and the experiences tlw various States have b:,_d in connection with the con­ferencc>s which have already beeu held. This will be the ei~htlJ conference held for the settle­ment of this financial trouble. One was held in :Melbourne in June last, and another was lleld in Tasmania in March last, and after their delibera­tions had ceased we ·were just as far from a settlement of this difficulty as we were when the first conferent:.' took place. The Premier has laid gre:~t strees upon the dEsirability of all parties in this House combining in order to try and get a definite settlement of the question. \Ve on this side of the Home are just as anxious as the Premier that this quesLion should be definitely settled. But the Premier has told us to-night that be can give no as,urance that it will be settle:\ if this conference does take place.

The PRE>fiER : How can I give yon such an assurance?

·Mr. BOWMAN : I think that after seven confere,>.ees have been held, the eighth conference should definitely settle the qm·stion. The Pre­mier, however, admitted tilat the conference bad not the power to settle it. The hon. gentle­man also told us that the object of the con­ference is tn give an opportunitv to the State Pre­miers and the Federal Prime Minist.er to discuss the matter, and to secure legisla­tion in the form of a Referendum Bill passed by the Federal Parliament, so that the people may decide the question. 'l'be hon. member for Townsville staterl this afternoon that there was no necessity for discussing the motion of the junior member fur Brisbane South. He said, if you take the House as a whole, there are only about six men who are competent to deal wit.h this financial question. I want to say from the outset that l do not nose at all aR a finaucial authority, but there are men in this Chamber that have borne fin:wcial ability, and if not more than six men in this Chamber can satiofactorily criticise the financial r~lations bet.w0on the States and the Commonwealth, I want to ask bow the rank and file outside are going to determine as to what is a fair thim' by the referendum the bon. gentleman has spoken of to-night?

'l'be SECRETARY FOR Mna~s : The object of the conference is to give a had.

Mr. BOWMAN: Give a lead! \Vhy, you have been six years giving a lead.

The PREii!IER : I hope you do not object to a referendum.

Mr. BO\VMAN: My vote in this HouRe has always gone in favour ot the referendum. I was replying to the argument used by the hon. mem­ber for Townsville tbib afternoon that there were so few men in this Home-not half a dozen-who were capable of discussing the financial relations between the Cammonwealth and the States, and yon are now going to depend on the verdict of the people as to what they think is right.

Mr. RYLAND: You will want two referendums -one to alter the Constitution.

The PmlmER: They are only going to deter­mine what they think is a fair and equitable thing.

Special AdJournment. [4 AUGUST,] Special AdJournment. 587

Mr. BOWMAN: I think the avarice or the greed of the Premiers that have met from time to time ht-'' been largely responsible for a settle­rrlent not being arrived at years ago.

OPPOSITION MEMBEHS : Hear, hear!

Mr. BO\Vl\IAN : There was a proposition put iorward by Sir George Turner. There was another one by Sir \Villiam Lyne. There was another by Sir John Forresc, and yet another by the ex-Federal Prime :\lir.ister, 1\lr. Fisher. And yet not one of those proposals w·1s at all satisfactory to the hon. gentlemen who were there in the interests of the 8tates.

The PREMIER : They agrel'i to Sir John Forrest's propmwJ in Brisbane.

The TREASliREH : And they afterwards with­drew it.

Mr. BO\V:YIA?{: There is evid~nce that there was dissatisfaction between the Stu.tes and the Con1ffi(lll\Vealth. I waR Romewhat amutled when I heard the Pnmier referring to the qn'''tion of home ruk-(Orposition laughter)-this cry of home rule for Queensland. You, Sir, will re­member how, during the lo.~t election, the cry of hotne rule was raised. How the hon. gentleman, from every platform, used the cry for all it was worth.

Hon. R. PHILP : And so did you.

:\Ir. BOWMA::\' : And so did I, and the hon. 111etnber \Va:'O) the one tnan who ~regretted that that cry was raised. The one man ! But after that cry had been r:tio"d-after tbe fight had been won-where did· the bun. gentleman come in?

Mr. HAnDAORE: Sold hiE party.

Mr. BO\VMA:\' : His subsequent aceion is evidence to us of what occurred. The great cry on tbe constitutional queiition-the fight was against the hon. member for Townsville, with whozn he is now ~tllied.

::Hr. :\{uLCAHY: Thirty pieces of silver. The PHE:IIIER: \Ve settled it. 2\Ir. HARDAOIUTI: You wonld not settle it.

:\Ir. BOW.!\L\.:\' : The Premier stated that eighteen months from now the whole matter would be in the hands of the Cc>mmtmwealth if it were not settlr.,d, anrl there v"· as, I think, an insinuation in the hon. gentleman's renmrks that the Commonwealth hal: not been as generou" as it might have been to the variuns States.

The Pm~mER: No, no! I did not even hint at such a thing.

Mr. BO\V!\IAN: \V ell, there was a dread in the hon. gentleman's remarks thctt if this matter is not settJr,; now, there is ,,,Jmething to fear from the Commonwealth in the futnre. I want to ask the bon. gentleman has he, or has this -State, as well as the other States, not been treated exceedingly well by the Commonwealth?

The PR:;l\mm ANll Hon. R. PHILP : No, no !

i\fr. BOWl\IAN: There was a stipulation laid down tlnt so nmch would be retnrned, and, over and above that amount, the s~ates of the Oomrnonv e"lth h. ve received between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000 more than they were entitled to.

The l'RR}!IEH: They bav<J not received a penny more.

2\Ir. HA}!IL'l'0:-1: And neglected their own departments.

Mr. BOWMAN: They have starved their departments, and bad they kept what w:1s due to them they would not have been in the position they are to-clay. They were over-generous, in my opinion. I expre8sed that opinion on the last :Financial Sttttement that W.J,s before this House, and I repeat it again to-night. The

attitude the Premier took up to-night was a fear that the States would not be tren,teJ fairly-that it was entirely in their own hands.

The PREMIER: I did not take up that attitude.

Mr. BO\VMAN: The hon. gentleman stated if this matter was not Hettled, that after 1911 the Commonwealth could reserv·' tn themselves the right ao to whether they would give the States anything or not.

The PnmnER: That is a mere matter of fact.

Mr. BOvVMAN : It is a mere matter of fact, but there i:;; an insinuation that \li.- e h}tVd some­thing to dread after 1911 from the Cummon­W<•ahh that I do uot think will exist at ail. \Vhat ;-uu hav,; to do is to take the p;,st experi­ence of the Commonwealth. How has i; tr~oated the States in tbe paot? I think tille evidence th»y have gi\~en fron1 titne to time is the trut<>t indicatit•n that thc•y are prepared to tn-a.t the St:ttes fairly, and come to a c01nprnmise. Now, the hon. ;;entlernan "eems to fear that if those six Premiers do not meet in .!\Idbourne the States are g<)ino- to suffer, because there is no one in Melbou':-ne who will look after their interesto. I would remind the hon. gentleman that the States bttve direct representation in the Senate to look a her their mterests. New 8outh \V ales and Yictoria, as we know, have the largest pnpulations, as compared with the other four State,, but little Tasmania has equal representation in the Senate as either New Soutb \Vales or Vietoria. That is the safeguard of the StateR~thP fqual reprecl~:nta.tion that they have in the S•·nate at the prPsent tnne, and this bogey that ha>' been hurled uu from time to time, not only by the Prem•er but by many other State Premiers, I think myself is purely a myth. \Ve have had no reason to doubt the sincerity of the Commonwealth up to the present in giving us a fair dnl. They have given UR even rnore than we were entitled to.

The PREii!IEH: I want you to understand that a proper business arrangement should be come to.

Mr. BO\VHAN: I w,mt to ask the hon. gentleman, in the event of this conference not taking place this year, does he think that t~e Connnonwealth is going to dn aHyt!•1ng unfa1r towards any of the respective State,;? I b _lieve that if no conference takes place, the Comm·m­wealth are just as desirvus of having this matter settled a' what the States are. Jnst ab desirous.

The SEORETAHY FOR ill!NEH: That is a ques­tion.

Mr. BO\VMAN: Of course it is to a pre­judiced mind.

The PREMIER: It is not a question of ill-will between the Commonwealth and the States.

Mr. 1\L\.NN : I rise to a point of order. Owin(i to the interjections made by tbe Premier

and the Minister for Mines, I can­[10.30 p.m.] not hear the speech of the leader of

the Opposition, and I desire that you will call them to order, Mr. Speaker.

The SPEAKER : I am very ghcl the hon. member for Cairns has drawn attention to these interjections, and I hope the hon. members to whom he alludes will refrain from interjecting. And I hope the hon. member f<·r Cairns will follow in the same direction. (Government laughter.)

Mr. BOWMAN: The Premier told us that the real settiement of this qnestion would mean the consurnrnation of federation ; but he care~ fully omitted to refer to the increased •·xpendi­ture of the Commonwealth Government. \Ve know that since the :Federal Old-age Pensions Amendment Act was passed, making provision

Mr. Bowman.l

588 Special Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Special AdjouJ'nment.

for at least 6,500 in our own Stare, they can, by an J~xecutive rninnte, increase the exr"nditure in reference to invalids a.nd won1en RiAty years of age; and it i~ estimated that eYtm on the presenL baei.< it will cost about £2,000,000 a year. Then hon. members S·•Y they are anxious to o·ee defence carried on to a greater extent; and that cannot be done without money.

An 0PPOSITIOC'{ MEmmm : There is also the Post Office.

Mr. BOWJ\IAN: The Post Office has been in their hands for some considerable time; I am de•lit•g now with the increased ex]Jenditnre in connection with new servico~. If they c.:trry out their nriginal intention in regard to old-age pen­siom, it will proba.bly run to u,bout £2,500,000"' year; and I qtwstion very rnnch whether anyone will object tot hnse people getting that relief. Still the lcederal Parliament have to find the money; and 1 think it would be well for the Premiers of the Stal cs to realise the fact that there is an increasing exvenditure on the part of thP Federal Government, for which they will require additional revenue. I don't know whether the hon. gentleman favours tbe Federal Government undertaking the imposition of a land tax. That was one of the proposal" of the late Prim· Minister, and the present Prime 1\finiRtE'r Ptated, when addre"'sing an audience in the Exhibition Building in Brisbane, that land taxa• ion was bound to come, and if the States did not take np the question of land value taxation the Federal Government would have to do it. If tha\ is done, probably we shall have u,n outcry by the various Premiers that the Federal Gnvernrnent i~ encroaching on a means of taxation that belongs to the States. But it may not apply so much to the other States as to Queensland, because this State has not yet undertaken that mode of taxation. The Premier stated that there should be a common agreement with the conference and the people. So far as I have read the proceerlings of the various conferences, there. is just as great difficulty for the permanent settlement of the que,tion at the forthcoming conference as there has been in the past. The Premier says they are more ripe for it to-day than they were some years ago. If discussing the question should ripen them, they should b" almmt overripe to-day. Still there seems to be jealousy between the St<ttcs, and antir.mthy to the Comnwnwealth on the J nxt (A :;ome of the State Premier,:.;,

The PREJ\!IER: I don't think th<>t is true.

:vrr. BO\Vl\1AN: There is thescareaboutHob Roy tinancf'.

'.rhe PREMIER : I had good reason for mying that.

Mr. MAKN: Order, order !

Mr. BOWYfA:c\': The Premier states that it is necessary that he should go to MelbournP, or he wants this Honse. to adjourn th>1t he may go to lYic·lbonrne to attend the conference. If the Pre1nier desire~ to go, or if the J--louse detern1ines that a representative should go, then it is for the hon. gentleman to go; bnt to shut up thif; House for a fortni~ht is asking too much of this Chamber.

The PRE~liER : \V hat are )Tnu to do with your­selves?

Mr. BOWMAN: \Ve might ha.ve sorne chance of doing husii1es~ if the Lon. gentleman were to go and give us a chance. He can go if he likes. On three different occasions within the ]a,t six weeb--the last divi,ion was taken an hour and a-half ago-we have had the hon. gentleman hanging on by tbot slender thread < f one. He goes to that conference and poses as the repre­sentative of the people of Queemland. I think

[Mr. Bowman.

if he fully realised his true position he would not b0ther about the c0nference at all, but would hand in his resignation and go to the country.

:!\1r. ::\iuLCAHl': And give someone else a ch:tnce.

l\1r. BOWMAN : And try to get something m Jre satisfactory than going to }lelbourne by Ineans of one vote.

The tlECRETAI\Y POR lYIINES: One is as good as ten.

l\Ir. BOWMAN: I think the Minister foe 1\Iines would feel more secure if he had a majcrity of ten mstead of the slender one the Government arP depending on at the present time. The Premier, in spe<tking of the arrange­ment he thinks would be s,.tisfactory to the Stat.e, spoke abo"t a fixed amount per capita. I don't know whether the hem. ge11tlernan got his idea from the Labour financial scheme laid down by the Federal LalJour Convention held last ye:tr. I propo"e reading a paragraph fron! _the official report of the Commonwealth Pohtwal Labour Convention, held in July, 1008, to show what the proposal of the Labour party is with respect to the distribution of the Customs and Excise revenue. It reads as follows:-

That this conference expres~es its approval generally of the following seheme as the basis for an adjustment or the financial relation8 between the Commouwealth and States:-

1. That the States should continue to receive a share of the Federal Teven ue.

3. rrlmt such annual share be paid to the Stl.ltesin the form of a fixed sum per head of the po~mlation. such ~urn to be :tscertained during or before the year 1910 on the Uasi.s shown in the fourth paragraph.

3. That the proportion of revenue allocated to the Commonwealth must be snfficient to cover-

(a) All existing expenditure apart from reproduc­th·e services;

(b) Old-age and invalid pensions throughout the Commonwealth ;

(c) An additional sum, not to exceed £1,000,000, for t be expanding neeessities of the Federal Government, such as the creation of the FedPral l'apital, railway UPdertrtkings. and the development of the Northern Territory.

4. That the amount of the fixed payment per capita to be r~,turned to the State"' be ascertained by-

(a.) Taking the average total ot' the Customs and }~xci-;e revenue of five representative years be­fure 1910;

(b) D~clucting therefrom the average total of Com­monwealth expenditure, for the same represen­tative years, under tbe three heads enumerated in the third paragraph ;

(c) Dividing the amount so nrr~vrd at by the.aver­age number of tho populiltiOn of Australia for the same representative yeari'l.

5. That in view of the exceptional position of \Vc-:tern Austr:-J.lia a further capitatiou graut sbould lJ'· made to that State, to gradually diminish upon a sl~dil~g scale until its share of the Fcdera.l revenue coiDcides per capita with that of the other S~atcs.

The T!lEASliRER: That works out at £1 Os. 9d. per head.

Mr. BOW:\IAN : The ban. gentleman in speaking to-night said tbat, ~~e cvnfddered that £110s. per Citpita was a fa1r tnmg fnr Queensland, and he told us that for the last three years the average per capita was £11Gs. 7d.

The PmmiEl\ : That was the money we actually got.

"'Ir. CoYXE : Order, order!

Mr. BO\ViviAN: I hope the Treasurer will rPalise tb>tt if the Commonwealth is going to increr:,::;e its expenditure, it must have more revPnne. If it is the desire of the peop1e of Australi-1-t.he s<>.me people who send us to our respective Parliaments in the Stat.es as send the F~deral representatives to the Federotl Parlia-

Special AdJournment. [4 AUGUST.] Special Ad,fournment. 589

ment-that the expendit~re must be increased, then it will be incrcaHed. They have stated, by the action of their re!Jresentative,, that the pen­sions must be increased, and that the defence expenditt1re n1u:-<t be increased al-;n, \Ve know that the latr> Prime 1'\linister, :\Ir. Fisher--

'rhe PnEi\l!Ell: The State Parliaments will have to raise the revenue to pay that. That is the real question.

Mr. BO\VMAN : It was generally understood when they dct.f•rn1intd to bring in "'n old-agB pension in tbe Federal Parliament that we would be relieved of th>t ''mount of money so far as the payment frurn the State was concerned. If it is ir.~cr-eased, I snp}wse Queensland vvill rtcei ve perhapH (JVel' £250,000 in IJ811SiOllS, rrbat is the estinmte, any bow. Surely then the Goverument will not expect to f;et the sarne amount. of revenue from the Federal G"Yernment, seeing tbat they have been relieved of the an1ouut they had to pay the old-~ •. ge p~msi,mo·s in (lueen:-sland during the last twelve month,,

The TnEASUHER: \Ye don't expect lo get that much.

11r. BOV~-~~,TAX: \\.-ell, you cornpJain, and you ar,e in dread th "t tlw Fedexal Government is Ih1t guiug to ;;ivP- you <1 lair deal after the tern1.ination of the '' Hr.c~ddon blr,t" peric-L

The 'l'REASVRER: The,· would hc,ve to spend all the money th• y propose to spend.

Mr. BO\YNIA:C~: They cmmot spend it :,nd have it too. lf you are relieved of the ruoney which you haYe i:Jeen spending on a certain .ser­vice, ti~ n ,\ uu n1u.-,~ LXIH·ct to get lt:..,~ fn;n1 the JJ'eder~l Gove:nnuent-:.t gn-l, t deal lefJ>.

The THE.\SL'BEH : Ye::;; on the old-age pension-'·

Mr. BOIV:\IAN: And on the defence, too. Y on sure!:· believe in clefencP. As a young Australia.t, or an old ...:-\.nstralian, the hon. gentlt-rrHtn HIU3t h.Jieve :in the d··ftnc·· of ... ~usw tralia. \Vhether the lv-n. gentleman wants the ~,eder,.l Governrnt·nt to go in for a borrowiug­pnliey nr not I do not kH'~W. lf he ,.., a.nts that, well it i~ tbr hn:.:oine<; of the :Fed,_ral Parli~.nnent, and tbi~ S•at) hns oo right. to ir:tsrfere with how they grt chPir woney. The Federal Parliament r-et the hn1k of their ll1oney frorn C·~ston1s and J~xci-:;e at the pre,~ .:_mt time. .1.\. proposal was n1ttde in thP Eederal Parlia.rnenc h~t ses:;ion to try to ~et a. further stun of nloW-J by nwans ()f direct taxatim1, for in addition tn tl!" cxtr._t. money r(;quired for tht-:-::~e t'NO s.:n-ief:·", nld-ag•:'l per._qon::; and ddenr", the Cornnwnwr lth have ta.ken over two other TI).)tters fron1 the Stateq. 'They have trken over the lighting' of our cnrst, a big itt>m uf ext" ndit.urr, and th~.::y h,u e ' 1btl taken over quarantine, which i~ anc ther big it.ern of expenditure.

The P HE:IIIER : No; they have not taken them over.

Mr. BOW.l\IAX: 'Why, your own Home Secrdary sent Dr. N orris, the connnis::;ivneT for quarantine, clown to Peel Island last week to make an inspection in connection with the lepers there.

The PnE:IUER: But they have not taken over the lighting. 'l'hat is not profitable. They have taken over the quarantine.

Mr. BOWMAN: It would have been better if we harl been allowed to go on with business, especially as there has been a good deal of legis­lation promised by the Government in the Governor's Speech, as well as the legislation which was promiiled to a cler•utation last week in connection with the amendment of the \Vurkers' Uornpensation Act.

Mr. MULCAIIY: That was promised last year.

Mr. BOIVMAX: Yes; it was promised ]-."st year. I want to-night just to mention an in­accurate statement that was made by the Pre­rnier in Gyrnpie h~..,t Satur~lay nig-ht. J \Vant to show tlmt the Premier has not been fillr at all. I will quote from the Gympie 111 in er of :Monday, 2nd August, 1009, to show what the Premier said on Saturday night. This is what he e,•id-

He was sorry he V."1'> detaining lli~1 hearer::; longer than lle had originally intended, but there wer,_, ::.till one or two things which h._: would like ro wention. He told a devutation on tlln previous da3· that he \Vas :prepared to ~Lmencl the "~ ork8l ~' Coru11ett.~ation Act to proyidc for 1Ja}ment from the first day of the accident. lie had nlways be\ievccl that th:-tt wnr, a desirable thing. .As a nlntter of fact, it woul•i lwve lJrnn carriml out last .Year only lvr the obstruction lu tlH: House by the LalJour pat'ty.

GovER~~!E:-<1' j\,IEMimns : Hear, hew J

.Mr. BOW:\L1X: Do yon Eay that that is a true statenH:•nt?

Tile Pim;lllrR: Qnite trne. (Laughtt•r.)

Mr. BO\Vi\IAX : I ha\ e here eomethi1 g I will quote from. ~Che hon. genti m:tn 1u~de that statEnwnt in Gympie on 8:1tunJ ,y n1ght. I asked him on the ±lour of th:' House if \t is true, and he t':JYR it i.:;. :Now l wHnt to re111iud the hon. gentl(:•BHtrl t!u.t ,__, d iJHtu.tiun wait~ d on hin1 l·-;':-7, and 1 ~Jrcpose re. ·ling ~he aCC 1 'l1_lt of that. to sLww th ,t the hon. -,en~ h~tnan wa..; sve ki,;g- in act> 1'd!1TIC" with fac' f' ~ t Gv1nui:=.l on ~-,.,tuL.a\~ ni:"ht. _\_nd I Lr1Y(; anqt~lf<r objec't-tbat, in:-sie:t~i of\his Hu~se bt;ing r·;1 ~.ed, we 1:' a 11,,rty Lrc vny anxious ~.o see an anlend­rncnt o;:_ th~· t Bill brougbt ln and pas-:?d irnwe­diately to give rt::;lief ton HUlH!'"''r of pc)p:e who 111 ,;end~, r~(ll1ite it..

j\,Ir. IlYLA!m : It io be'.tm· the,n the acljourn­rnent of the llon~e, anyway.

Mr. l>. HUNTER: Js that the Co11r-ier?

)fr. RO\\T:\_L',:'<[: Y"', t': Courio·, yonr pn.~>er. Thi::> L; the Br:',li£tnc Courier, \Vcdne ... -clay, 2Hd December, 1008-Ai:\.xlrcsciDli::-.:r nY Tn~; Pnunr-:R~"\rmtKru,/ Cr-:\IP.EX­

~.\TtO:-i .AC'l' H\ U i'UlH,lC ..t Deputation to "1r. trn1.

A eh plll:ttlon. C' a~htin r of 11c· ,r~. 11. Bowman, RvhLJd, Jlnll:ahy, I· nnnn, \Yin~t::J,ley, ::tml J.lnlla.n, Ji:,r.r~ A .. \YHitt 1 C•U ': 11e l':,•.mier \:l~t night to ::"k llim to intrr il1ce an hll1Cncling \ill to the \\rorher:o' ComlJCn­sntion A et..

Jf!'. BO\LUA.\J remitl'1ed :llir. KV.~ton that tHJ ~Lucncl-il:.r_;- lJill wH~· lJIOJHisc~d in l.tH~ G-O\'C-n'Iwr's .:-'/'-11 iu tlw la~t Parliarnont, aucl drew lli : attt;JJtion to !';;et that dnnng tt;e dc';·:tc C1n the AUdru_.: in lte,.<iy lll;tny of the Labour membf-!r::i had HSl<ed for an early amenchm 1L of the Act. OnJ of tlHJ mneudment\ l"_ '!Uin:d wu-; 111 thtj din~eoon oE paying injured men cem~Jensation fr.Jm the d;Lte of the aceilient, iustead of their h1.vjng to ~<.: with­out payment for tbf\ first f'.trtnight, and thus: bring the worl( l'S into line with civil ser"Vants. )Ion tl'ihnUng in mi11es v;cre compelled to ac·- &:3 contractors, and were thus removed from the benefits of compensation.

l\11'. RYiu\.ND supported :.nr. Hnwmau's re(lUCst, and asked that a schedule should be inserted in the Act defining the ~~mount or com!JCH·'·H.tion wocl\:ers were entitled to for the loss of various limbs, etc. He also asked that men who were incapacitated b.\· disease in­herent to their particular calling 8hould abo be entitled to eompen~ation, as w2.N. the ea:-:e in the En~llsh Act; also that men 1->ermanently injnrc.l, or killed, even H lly contributory negligence, slJould be entitled to compensation, ana tll?t where a. worker had no depend'.nts the compensation !'hould. be pn.id to his nearest heir: also that in the case of inf.;olvency or the emvloyer compen~ation shoulfl be th(j first clalm aiter wag~·~. He asked also that a system ot ~tate insurance should be in troUnced.

Mr. }[l:LO \IIY said he thougllt that in most of the dangel'ous ocCLH•ati{JllS, almo ... t without exception, men were employed under contract. so that they ~hould not come under the ·workers' Compensa-tion Act. The Government was not free from blame in this respect, as a case had come under his notice where a serub­feller at Gympie had contracted wHit the Government,

Mr. Bowman.]

590 Special AdJournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Special AdJournment.

lost his life and his widow hacl not received a penny of cam pen~ ·ttion. rrhis tendency to escape the pro­v1sions of the Workers' Compem"ttion J ... ct hy letting work on cont1·act wa~ increasing among employers. In rega.rtl to the claus,~ exemvting men 1rom payment during the first fortnight after acciUent, he vointed out that in a great many cases men were incapacitated for a few U.ays only.

)1essrs. L:KX.XON and IYINSTANLEY ~1lso supported the re<tne•;ts of their colleaglk·~.

l\fr. KIDSTO:\, in rf';l ,;·. said that. as 1\Ir. Bowman ha<l remi'::.Iked, they had ;1 11d rt.;ason to suppose he was sympathetic to thedeplluttion. He had been ,..,poken to by suu.e of his own supporters who desired an amend­ment of the \Vorkers' Compensatioll Act in the direc­tion of abol)shing the fortmght's int -rregnum before the compem;ation r'ell due, and a Bill had heen partially drafted for that purpose That was a eomparati rely small amendment, although it would ~:.ff1 ·-t the rate of insurance anU the position of the insurance c:)nlpanies. He did not hesitate to sny that he thought three days' interval woultl be a fair thh:;g. Then~ \Vas always a little danger in malingering, and if it was not for that dangPr he did not kuow that there 'Yas any justification for even three days' intm \ al, bee~1nse he saw no reason why a man should not be compen·,ated for one day's lm;s any more than one week.

)Ir. BO\v:llA~: The number of caSF·s of malingering is very small.

1Ir. KIDS'rOS: Oh, yes, there are very few; it is jm~t the temptation you may offer to malingering. Friendly socictit:s, llfl '·Aid, had u. three days' provis.o. Thr- mem~ bers of the deputation had shown tha.t there were nnlnerous mat,ters rel{Uiring- attention in con11ection witn tllis 1·eally very beneficial measure. lte~ardmg contractors and tributers, he thought he saw~ method of getting over that, although it was a very difficult question. rrhe price to be paitl for the work should in­clude <1.. p~em1um for instuance nnder the \Vorkers' Compen'<ttion Act, and the whole In:ttter wonill be ended in one net. As for tile proposed amendments, it was not desirable to amend an Art lilw that every year. "Jir. Kids.ton instanced a t':Lsc in Croydon, where. he said, a young fellow who bad met with an a('·~ident h:=td been bounced ont or an award of £:3.JO, and was apparently glad to settle the case for £60 or £70.

~1r. :vruLCAHY: That frequently happen<o;.

:llr. KIDS TO:\: It was in order to prewmt a repetition of such ea~e~ tlutt the Act. was introduced. The lJes:ita­tion t.hat. men had in fighting their emplo1.'er·~ was, he continued, a basic reason for Llle ... \.et. \\'hile he should like to sec some of the suggested amenc.1ments incor­porated in the Bill, he did not think there was much prospect of introducing it this year.

The PREMIER: Henr, hear ! Because you are stonewallir.g. (Laughter.)

Mr. BOIY:\IAN : Because, added :J.:Ir. Kiclston, laughingly, you fellows won't ~ive me a. clutuce.

~Ir. Bow1.IA~: You can get a chance after Christrr.as:. }fr. !\tDSTO:S: I ,.~n just as well intentioned in the

matter :·; you arc, bnt there are otl:.d' things, and it is reall,:. desi.rabJe that 2.1inisters shonld g8t into l'eCfH. (l:tu){hter.) Thel'C are 11 numbc.' of )thcr mattr 1·s of verY grr~J..t importance that i\-Iinisters shonid attend to in the early part of the year. Thereareurge11t matters of public Uusine~.-, that, in my opinion, u-ould not justify us keeping Parliament into the new year, or at k'-J.St any lcngtb of time into t1w nmv yc~r, and what 'iTC are going to clo Wf> will have to do between now and the end of the yc:tr- at l1 aA, l hope so.

3ll·. Bmv:U.'\X: Th0re is no matter so urgent as this. ;.Ir. KIDSTO:'\ flaid the Act had beAn in oper~tion only

two yettrs, and. l••td tlorw a. vast amount of good, and he thou~ht they wonlr~ w.ree t11at it was not dt sirable to amend it LTery yt AX like the Land A et. He thought it was the ~oundc.:>t way to put the whole thing us a genfr<ll co",t on the in<lnstry. At the same tin:.e it was not wi~c to bA C·1ntinna1ly worrying and :::t,irrin:.r up objection toth::, cla~~1 of legislation. \Vhile he thunght that many of the amendments werf~ de"•irahle, be did not think that th'~l\ wonld lJ!) time to iBtrodtH:e an amenlling Bill this s~,~siou.

Jit. }~J'iDIAN: D,1n't you intend to sit in tbe new year, the•1;..

:\Ir. KIDSTOX: ::\'o, not if I can help it. It is not a matter or any personal convenience. I am as good a sit .er us a1~y of you. Heferring tu State insurance, ::\Ir. Kici;_..;tnn said he W:t" Yery tle~iron:-: of giving effect to it, because in the passing of the V{orkers' Compens .. tion Act he reeognised they were ulacing a fresh burden on

rMr. Bowman.

the employers of labour. He thought it wa'\ quite fair to minimj~e that burden as far as po::'~ible by a system of State immralll:e, which would lessen the cost to em­ployel's, and also obviate cases being.~ 1 ofte11 foubllt.

l\Ir. Bow~IAX: I have spoken to many employers, and they don't objr-ct to paying eompen~ation, but to being fleeced by il1stuance companies.

~lr. KIDSTO~ said that the heavy stamp duty fell he:-tvily on small employe1s, and he thought that in pa~<­sing such legislation tluy should make the burden fall as lightly as poF"ible.

Mr. Bow1IAN: You will do tbat when you introduce the amendment.

itlr. KIDS TOX: I think so; I hope so. I have a rathBr exten~ive idea about State insurane~·, and intend to start it by the sy~tem fo1· publie servnnts and by insurance under this Act, and If we can work it slwcessfully I intend to extend the principle. (!!ear, hear!)

The PREmER: \Vill you let me say how much I am obliged to you ?

Mr. BOIVMAN: I d,, not care whether the hon. gentleman is ohliged to me or not. He distinctly stated last s, .. ,,,ion tbat he w"s not

going to introduce that Bill, and yet [11 p.m.] he told the people of Gympie-

app<trently for electioneering pur­poses, as he ha' circubted the same kind of statement from one end of Queensland to the other when he ha8 been on dectiontering tnnrs -and if there is one thing that a man 'houid confine himself to when speaking on a public platform, it is the truth. Tbe hon. gentleman might have stated that the time was limited; but he blamed the Labour party, a!ti,ough alrnost up to the cln"£.e of la~t ses::'ion, PXCept for the Limitation of Statutes Bill, which came to us from the Upper House, and two railway Bills, the only Bill that was brought before us was the \Vorkers' Dwellings Bill, which waN introdum,d by the 'I'rf:asurer. The Premier told his Gym pie audience that the Le~bour pnrty wr·re re~ponsible fnr an amendment of the \Vorkers' Compensation Act not bei,,g phc,d on the statute-book last session. I ab,olutely deny that, and hi,< own statement proves what l am saying. His chief desire was to get into recess, and then he comes along with n statement that is altngethPr nnfair and unjnf't and untrue-, and tells the p~ople r>f Gyrnp!e : "I would h' Ye done this for you had it not be0n for the Labmr party." Tv1iuing membr•r,, on botL ,;d,,, :Jdmit the treacherous nature of the miner·s occupation. 'l'hat is one of the reasons why I object to this House being closed down. \Vhen speaking on the Adc!resd in Reply, I calJe, l attention to the abeencc from the programme submitted to us in the Governor's Sneecb, of a Sta,t.e Insnr:) nee Bill anrl u \Vorkers' Compt-usat.i(,n Ae1; _.:\rnendlnl-'nt Bill. They \vere bc~h contained in the ]WO­

gramme promised for the first Sf' -ion of 1908. Now, I D. m prepared to test the sinc,>rity of the Government by asking them if they are prepared to introduce and t·a--s those Bills during the absence of the Premier in ;\Ielbourne?

Mr. 1IULCAHY: They are nut in this year's progrmnrne.

J\Ir. BOIVMAN : Of ~ourse, thev are nol·, but he has promiBed a deputation within the last week that he will intwduce an amendment of the latter measure. Now, is the hon. gentle­n1an sincere, or are we to n1intrust his ·word, as we have had to do for years in this Honse?

The SPEAKER: Order! The hnn. member will realise, I am surP" that this is a parlia­mentary debate, and tluct he must not use expressions like that. If he wants to convey such an idea, he must do it in different langua;;;e.

1vir. BO\VMAN: It is well known that most of the Premier's promises are altogether inaccu­rate. That is known to those members who are

Special Adjom·nment. [4 .A.TJGUST.j Special AdJournment. 5~1

sitting with him to day; and those of m who have had personal contact with him know that his word is not worth that (snapping his fingers).

The SPEAKER: Order! The hor. member surely must re.dise that statements like that can­not b:" made in Parliarnent regarding another hon. member. I must really ask the hon. mem· ber to withdraw that statement, as it is quite contrary to our Stn.nding Orders.

Mr. BO\VMAN : I withrlraw the words, and just snhstitnte that when the hon. gentleman makes a pronriRe von are a1wavs lot.h to believe that it will be c 1rried out. That has been my experience. On" is tempted at timt' to ,;ay fairly strong things in this Honse when you know that a man has tried deliberately t.n place this party in a hhe po·ition by making false statements.

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. BO\VMAN: I suppose it is within your memory, Sir, that in the second se,;sion of last ye"r we only sat for about five weeks. \Ve had a want of confidence motion; we had also the Address in Reply, and the legislation that was introduced-of course it was never intended to carry it.

At six minutes past 11 o'clock,

The SPEAKER said: I call upon the Chair­man of Committees to relieve me in the chair.

Mr. W. ,J. R. MAUGHAN (IpSI"ich), Chair­man of Committe""' took the chair accordingly.

Mr. BOWi\lA~ : I am remiHded by the emior member for GynljJie that bot year the Premier had what he described to the country as "a strong, coherent p;;;rty." He httd "' majority of twelve last session, and he did nothing. And I want to ask what hope ha' he of doing anything now with his fl msy majority? 'l'he re1l secret of the hon. gentleman's desire to geo to Mel­bourne a;;d to adjourn this House for a fortnig-ht is that he cannot leave any of his colleagnes in charge. B> has to carry nis majority with him in hiH own rwr,on. (Langhter.) 'l'he bon. gentle­man knows that nothing can be done while he i>J away, and he is anxions that nothing should be done. \Vhen certain Premiers have gone away they have left one of their lieutenants in charge durmg their abs,·nce. T!1e :Secretary for Lands was Acting Prernhw tor a Hhort time on one occa~ sion, when he was in another Cabinet of another colonr. \Vhen ~Ministers have been tmvelling all over the conntry, they were al::le to lenve the ship of st11te in eharge of tbat old \'eterau who belongs to another Cbaruber, and that hon. gen­tleman used to boast, "I can rnn the whole of the devartrnent.':l." Kow, if the Governn1ent are desirous of ?etting 011 with legislation, let them go on. 'Ille House may determin' by a na.rr<;w n1:1jority-a, rnajority of une-tha.t T,be hulJ. g~ ntit_•rnan shall go to i\lelhourne; :mt if b8 gOt"b, l t!Jillk this Honse shonld contlnue tu ,it and do it-; business.

OrPOSl'l'ION nlE}!BERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. EO\VniA~: It is outmc:eons thr~t the Government shonld ask for an adjournment for a fortnight. \V by not close up altogecher?

l\1r. D. 1-ITJNTEH.: V¥.,. f-~ are not doing- business.

Mr. BO\V:<IAN: \V!ry are the:v not doing business? Does it not show t.be weakm'" of the Government when they are not cavablo of doing­bu:-:ine3s? Th1.t is one of the werLkneRsec, of the present situatinn.

Mr. D. HcNTE!l: 'l'oo much talk. Mr. BO\V:'rlA~: The hon. member is one of

those individual> who have to be obedient to their rr.aster. He was let off the chain for one night, and was enlog-ised very highly for t!:e

address be delivered, the Scotch humour he in­dnlged in, and his description of the dream he had. But be does not often get off the chain. It is not often t har. the Hou. the Premier will let his follow<>rs off the chain. They have got to do just exactl:v as he tell• them. Yet we have been toid hy hon, msrnbers sitting opposite tbat this part) are not free-that we are bound by some c"ncns or trinity. I claim that this party are as fred ~s any party sitting in ~ny Parliament-free to criticise and to vote wivhout any intimidation, and without fear of ny pressurf\ being brought to bf'ar on fl.ny of our rnetnlH:~rs. It is -.;,veil known that some hon. member3 opposite have been squeezed, that ti·ey h:>,w been chained up and locked up, so tbat the Government majority might be saLJ. \Vhat position do the Govern­ment find then <elves in at the pre.-Jent time? On the occasion of the election of Speaker, they had a nujority nf two. Taree divisions have been taken since then, in t1ach of which tbAy had a majority of one. Should they not be proud of earrying on th·~ busine.~s of the country with snch a majority?

A LABOUR ii1E1IBF.R : They are not carrying it on.

i\lr. BO\Vi\IAN: \Vdl, attempting to carry it on. I ''"Y thdr ph<'n duty is, not to bother abont a conference in :Ielbourne, but simply to tender their resignati ,n, and let tb8 people deterrnine \Vhich ['at~:y shall 1n1V8 a grPater n1ajority than one at the forthcJnYing electjor;:;;,

The TREASURER: They will get their chance in due courRt1 • \Ve are ready tn go to the country at any time

M:r. BOiVMAN: \Vhy don't you i/:o, then Z If the GovBrnment had any self-res]WJt tbey would retire at once, and wonld not sit there holding on to office like o, leech.

The TmlASl:RER: \Ve will go when we are ready.

l\Ir. BOW;\IAN: I do not know that any­thing- the hon. gentleman can do inside or ontside the House will influence any electorate. \Ve are not. much troublerl about the opposition of the hon. gentleman in either the House or the conntry.

The TREASURE!\: \Ye ar J not troubled abont yours either.

:\Ir. BO\V:\IAN : I have had to fight m~ way a gTeat deal harder than the hon. gent.leman has had to rln, and I have never ado[•ted the tactics thr:,t he has done to get into Pariiament.

The TnEASUHF.R: I have a! ways been straight, at any rate. '

l\Ir. BO\Y11L\.J'\: The bon. gentlemar< is one who ha~:; :lh.·av:' had to rely upr_ n Romebod .,. eltie to help hltn t 1 ge~ w h2re he i~~. I think that tbe conference which i; to be held in Melbourne will prove as futile at3 previous confPrenceH have done; and, becaub8 I bavt3 no faith in th ,t con~ ference, I shall votH ag,.inkt the Huu.,;e being adjourned in order to annv the PrelniPr to go down to Melbourne. No Premier atr.cnding that CI)Ilf," rence will be more demeaned thaa the hon. gentleman,

Mr. MAXWELT,: \Yhat about the Premier of South Auocr.lia?

:\ir. BO\VMAN: The deb~te on tbe w,nt of contirlencG in South _A nstralia h.t."' not yet termi­nated. Bnt I may 'c'Y that the one rnrtn who has sl;<1od pre"ernint·n'}y over all others iu previnus conference 1 \";\. i the .Prernier of South .. Australia, the !ttte :Mr. Thon.u" Pric", a rr.an who went there in the intecest of the workers of Aus­tralia, and not in the in~Prest c)f c''Pitali:stic rings. as the major poetion of the Premiers have done.

Mr. Rowman.]

592 Special Adjou1•nment. [ASSEMBLY.j Special Adjournment.

'l he Premier of this St,te will not go down to the forthcoming conference with the consent of this side of the HousP. The most recent thing we have heard from tbe hon. gentleman in con­nection with this matter is that the S;cate Pre­n1ier~ are going there to urge the Federal Go~ vernment to introduce and paRR a Heferendum Bil1, nnder which the financial q:1estion will be left to the people to decide. It is very nnhkely that the Commonwealth Government will do that. \Ve know that the Pronier is going tn that coufarpnce, not a.s the true friend of this State, as he professros to be, but for another purpose. \V e know what he said when be put hts foot on the shores of ·"us­tralia on bis return from the old country. He threw dcnm the ·; 1t1ntl o,t on that oc­c<ts;on, and the Labour £> .rly of Queensland touk it up. \Ve kwnv that be n1ade a f.1lse statenH nt rr~arding the ex-}'edernrl Prin1e ~Iin­i~ter. 11r. li'i;o5her, and n1yse1f, n1erely tn try to brePrl. discontBllt among the v.-age-earner8 of Qu<'enshnd, and that the said he was going to fjght the Labour Senators. Any rrmn expre~!-3ing hirnself as the Pr~~nti-(~r ha~ done shall nw, er gF:t a \ ote frum rne to a:;;;::;i~t hin1 tCI go do\vn to 1 he Pn 1nier:-' Confer­enc-. The hcJlL gentlen1an i:; 11:1t, in my opinion, .<nxious to get·" c\-diuit-? -.,flti.lement of the fin ·ncial que.;;tion, bn~ 11 : .. :-1es td go :.o :VId­bounw bec..anse he reccgni·· , that he i in, tight conwr her<, and he \V aut tn prolong bi:...; l:fe, r¥s Pr'-_·rnLr, a:) }>;ng ~~she po:~--:~biy ea~. I-L "~ks thnt thi" H.111Se:-:bould be c~o_c:cl frnrn to-r.ucn-ro~\ till tbe 2-Hll instant, merely , ~ify hirn:-elf tlld

tile lwn. ltlt:HJhurs who ale nn +-~le fruHt bench ·with hin1. I do not know v;ht~ther t,h,3 Treasurer is gc,ing ~Nith hiln ag Lin. Of C')Ur e he may be a sotuc;J of strength.

Mr. BLAIH: \Vhy should he not?

Mr. BOWMAN : He may be a source of strenccth to the PrelHier if he do" go, but we have ah~ ~1., H been letl to bAJieve that, as fi2a­

sul'er, he wu~ rnereJy a. figurehe-cCl.

l\lr. R~LA:>n: He can ntrry a port m 'nteau. (Lau"hter.)

}\ ~ r. BO \V ~I AX : fie wnnlrl 1~e (1oing practical v. ork if be \Vas c •.rr.l·iu)-4" tbe Premit.: 's portn.an­teau, but I LUk2 it the hon. gc ntlt:rnau will take his 1ne"sunger, :_.s he ln._ fonuerly Gone. I think n1y:-Jelf t~L~ t Hll tl1is ktlk a, o~:.t the l1'edt-r tl Go­verrnnerj t--~tll tLis wr 1ngling about the Federal Govt; nuH~nt for ~· t~ars-un thu part c,: State Prenli r~, ha·t be ·n t) 111110~1 envy :...nd bite-ernes::; agn,in·, t!1e Con:.mmnvea1th. They have raised thA cry of State rights. They l1ave raised the C'ry th·1t ihe }?ede"'ll G :)vernmrnt were not going to do the Ltir tlnng by tlwm. I arn prepart-d to trust. the Federal Governrnent to do a Lcir thing by e1.ch of the St>1t' s of Austmlia, ,w,] I am quite s;tisfied that no State in Auotralh will sccffer at their hands. The hon. gentleman thinkf. otherwise. He thinks if he is not there as the "great I <tm" of Queens­laud-if he is not there in conjunction with thv other Premiers, that everything will go to ruin. Up to the pre,ent we have had no anxiety about ruin. We have been more than fairly treated, and if there is one State in Australi" that owes a debt of gr,ttitucle to the Commonwealth Parlia­ment it is Queensland.

0PPORITJO:" ME}!BERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. BO\Vl'IIAN: They have done more to push Queensland along, and I suppose Queens­land has received greater benefits at the hands of the :Federal Government, than any other SLate. \Vhere would the black labour question have been to-day ha,d it uoc been for the Federal Parliament? Where would the bonus to white-

[Mr. Bowman.

grown sugar have been had it not been for the ]'ederal Parliament? And one of the Labour n1en who was instrumental in formulating that scheme is the pre~ent leader of the Labour party in the Federal Parliament, l\Ir. Fisher. \Ve he,ve had more from the Federal Parliament than any other State, atld we should be the last to endeavour to belittle that Parliament, as the Premier and some of hts colleague>· have done fr,r some years. I say for the position of our sugar industry to-day we are deeply indebted to the Federal Government.

OPPOSI'l'ION l\IEMBEI\S : Hear, hear !

Mr. BO\VMA:;o.<: \Ve are also deeply indebted to the Federal Government for tlmt which every Anstraltan and every adopted Australian is proud of. Tltat ;,_ we have laid clown tlte prin­ciple that I believe will work out successfully before very many years are over our heads--that in tllis country that we boast of we have the principle laid down that, so f ,r as possible, it shall be for a \vhite people, and :,;, white pLople only.

OPPOSITION ::IIEMBEHS : Hear, hear !

Mr. BO"\VMAN: That we will not h<Jve any need to fear t!mt there will be a racial difficulty snch ?9 1nay iJB experi8nc<>d n..t any ti1ne ir: the ·united Starr-•; of Arnerica. Some of the vif'Itors we have had from -L\Dl'_ riu·\ have complhnented man,· An~tr~dians, and IY:any of those .vho took part in bringing ahcn.r;, the \Yhite. Am ~ralian rnovement-they f<1,ve c In)Jlimentt:•d t,hern on dealing with tbe qqestion in it, Htrly gro\vth, and I iJpJie\·e thev bave settled ~vlw· rnig!:t have b8en a danger to .._-\.ustnllia had it bet·n dependent on the old euntlnnous GovernmPtt tlw•. so lo·ng ru]i d (2ueen~land; and they are the n1en who to-rhv an'l ::tl'l·,oeiatcd w1th the prr- 1ent Prernier of queen~land who w.tnts to gr1 to th.-tt con­ference. It wa· ne~ the \Vish of tho,.:;e hon. rr1embe.rs tha,t we.· honld u,et ri(l of : ~ack lal1onr, hut it was th0 ~,gitati~·n of the .Lnbour part.y throu~hout (/,ue'•n,Lmd o.nd the Lahl'llr party thrl)ughout the Cornrnmnvc:1hh-hacke l. by a nninber of democl:' •b; in e?Jch Cl the ;:)nntbcrn Stn,teR-t1m.t h:1-.s n1:'.d.e .Austr _di wh:-tt tbey de::;ired iG to he-nnroe)y, a white rn~n\; Ci'Untr.r.

J'vir. D. HuNTJm: \Vhat were the views of the Prirne ~Iitlister on th<1t qnetltjon?

:;Ir. BO\VMAN: Y on mean j\T r. IJeakin. I think he was in fJ.vour of a \Vhite "' .. _\ustrt:J.Jia". I referred to thl ma''Y democrats throughout the Southern Sthtc.s, [lnd also the agitalion of the Labour party to bring that about . .But du r,o;, for­get th9.t we had many, many years of h rd fighting in Quet"'l"land. \Ve b d an Act pas,ed that was going to stop it-as far back as 1802-alld we had a Prernier who went baek on hi;-. pror1iscs, merely to please the power, tbat existed at that time­the sug<tr industry. You know at that time what an agitation "' .JS created right throughout Queensland-ye~, right throughout Australia. How men and women were betrayed on that occasion by the man they placed implicit confidence in-who was guing to do a fair thing by them. They returned to the old order of things, and we know what a dis­gr<>ce it has been to Queensland, and that is a page in our history that is not pleasant to look back upon. But the history that has been made eince, through the instrumentality of the Federal Parliament, is, at any rate, something to be proud of. The Labour party, m conjunction with other democrats of Australia, were instru­mental in improving the conditions, so far as the sugar industry is concerned, and a number of other matters that conld be enumerated here. We have a very ~reat deal for which to thank the l<'ederal Parliament. They were the first in Anstralia to give as adnlt

Special Adjournment. [4 AUGUST.] Special AdJournment. 593

suffrage. We copied them, after the Federal Parliament had granted adult suffrage to the whole of Australi:t. Then the<e strong forces, that have been in the House for vears, tried to amend the legislatinn introduced, hut they to-day admit~some of them <>ven admit that it would be a g.lOd thing to have women here as members of Parliament. I think it was the hon. member for Townsville, in ,;peaking at a meeting the other night, who snirl that be had bad his doubts about the wisdom of giving the women votes; but, after his o>:perienc , he uow thought it would be a gnoj thing that they should enter the Huuse of Parliament as representatives of the penpl~. A mighty change ha' come over the hon. gent!em<tn. Another rea<on why this Rous,, should not adjtmrn : There are v·arious matters in oonnecticm with the Government pro­gramme that are earnt'stly looked for by the electors of Queensland. There is the question of the newi,icensing Bill.

::\Ir. 1\luLC.\HY : It is not in the programme.

Mr. BOWMA::f: Yes, it is. Mr. -:\IULCAHY: They do not mean it.

.Mr. BOW:\IAN: I have already expressed n1y opinion as to wha.t I thiuk of ttJe prmniSt'S of the Prexnier, and it is unneCeJo'8ary to repe.tt tbeUl. rrtlere are HlUl Oil both t~IdeS uf the House who are desirous of licen~ing refonn-rnen who realise that the drink tr attic is one ot the very 'vorst curse.:; the pLoplr- have to contend wit11 to-day. ~\ o lll11n in public lifA will fail to reali>e the difficultie; that stawl in the way regarding- thi;.;; drink que,.ti1m ; and, if the Guvennuent are desirous of getting on with this legislation, I am sure that the 'secretary for Puhlie Instrucci,m~ I do not know thttt it could be in uetter haods~because I believe that hon. gentlerrwu is sincere in his ten1perance principles, aud wuuld d11 his bPst to rn. ke that Bi!l as stnngent aJ fJOc~sib:e, Rn as to le-.sen the trouble that exists at the JH'f,,e l'u tirut-- thl'oU'rh that curs-:-', Tiw.t iti not puH~i I.J1e, bee._.. use the hon. geut!en1~u1 h~;:::1 not dJ;J,rgo of tlo(~ dtpart­ment, but if the H·•rne Secn-tccry, l\lr. Appel, or any ot,her 1\liniHter, intruducf-' i this legislt­tiou-let us havt-: a look as to tl1A nature of the Bill, and if the provi::-.idnS are sa~isfactory, then we could detennine :..t.bont getting 011 \vith the legislation that they have sta· eel they are so anxious to place on the statute-book.

Mr. RYLAND: There is no need for the Pre­mier to be here at all.

::\lr. BOWMAN: My opinion is that we could get along all right without him. While there may be equal numb<'rs on both sides, the party opposrte can depend on the ca,ting vote of the Speaker or the Chairman to carry them through~ they still have that hope left to them.

(Opposition laughter.) I do not [11.30 p.m.] intend to spe:ck at greater length.

I intend to oppose the proposed adjournment for so long a time. I do not think any good n·.mlt will accrue from the conference. I think the Premier is going down as no other Premier will go-with a majority of one. The hon. member for Burke has interjected that South Australia may be in a similar position; but they do not know yet, because I do not think they have taken a vote on the no-confidence motion. The Premier has narrowly averted three defeats, and I don't think he can feel very proud of the position he may take up at the conference. Anything I can do to prevent the adjournment asked for will be done, and I trust that the same stand will be taken by every hon. member on this side of the House.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: He.ar, hear! 1909~2 p

Mr. HERBERTSON (Port Curtis): I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Question stated.

Mr. AIREY: I think there are good reasons why a debate of this importance should be adjourned at this hour. It should be fully discussed, and should be discussed under such circumstances that every member who speaks can get a full report of his speech in H ansard, which is impossible under present circum­stances. As to th<o importance of closing up on Thursday or Friday or Saturday, I do not recognise the force of any such propnsal. \V e are. prepared to sit here as long as the business of the country demands it, and the fact that the Premier wishes to go away has no bearing on the question. I sincerely trust that the Governm<'nt will not insist on going on at this honr of the night.

The. PRniiER c This is a beautiful ex­ample of the folly of those people y:ho first eat their cake in the afternoon and then ex­pect to have it in the evening.

:\Ir. COYNE: I think there are very good reasons for the motion moved by the hon. member for Port Cnrtis. During the last three or four weeks we have adjourned before 10 o'clock on some occa.sions, and I do not think we remained till after 11 o'clock on more than one nccasion, and then it was only a iew minutes after 11 o'clock. And during the most of that time we were discussing very important business~the want of confidence motion. I think it is only rod.sonable now to adjourn the debate and allow members to get rrop·cr rt"t, so that they may oome back to-morrow with all their faculties ready for business. * :\lr_ :\IA:\1\: I think the reqneot fer the adjournment of the debate is an eminently rPasunable one, and I can see no valid reason why we should stay to-night to a later hour than usual. I think the House has adJourned every night since we met this session before 11 o· clock. \V e havo soen no anxiety on tho part of the Government to do business. If the Premier were in earnest in this matter, we v. ould have been sitting later several nights ago, and he would have given notice of motion to sit four days a week, The Government do not de -ire to pass the measures mentioned in the Governor's :Speech; they simply desire to waste as much time as they can over the Estimates, and pass such railways as are. nccc--.arv to bind to them the followers who object t; their present tactics. At the end of last session tho hon. member for Cambooya receiYed a promise in writing, I understand, that he would get a railway from Pittsworth to 1\fillmerran. It was asserted on the floor of thrs House that last session the hon. member for ..t-\ubi,rny went out of this I-Iouse making threats that if a certain rail way proposal he wanted wa,, not tabled within the next day or two h<' would withdraw his alle!l"iance from the Government. ln the inter<>sts of the State the House should adjourn, because there were several members on the Opposition side who wish to study the question, and see what would be the best possible scheme for the delegate from tho Queensland Parliament to lay before the conference. It has been alleged by mem­bers on the Opposition side that these confer­ences served no purpose at all, but were simply champagne-swilling picnics.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, orderl Mr. MANN: My language may be strong,

and might be considered unparliamentary, but

Mr. Mann.]

594 Special Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Sperial AdJournment.

I believe it is true. These conferencBs are rothing less than picnics. Th€ main dBsir€ of the Premier to go to l'llBlbourne is thB same as that which actuated him when he went to the old country. He wishes to go to :\1€1· bourn€ and po'o as the ·big strong man of QuBensland. He wishes to exhibit his portly figure in Melbourne and say, " Alone I did it." He wishes to give the people in :\Iel­bourn€ the imnression that h€ holc!s Queens­land in the pafm of his hand, and that, if 1\Ir. Deakin will not agrBe to his proposals, he will wipe out the Fcd•ora.l Parliament and rul€ Australia as a dictator. He wishes to convey to the people of Melbourne that he is the Cromw€11 of Australia.

Mr. MURPHY: The la.te Secr!:'tary for Public Instruction called him the Cromwel! of Aus­tralia.

:\Ir. MANN: I understand th>Lt tho late Secretary for Public Instruction referred to the Premier as "Our Cromwell." He referred to him as the Cromwell of Australia, who was going to curb the member for Townsville, and he was going to offer to the hon. membei· for Townsville the same treatment that Oliver Cromwell mBted out to Charles I. The Pre· mier always wants to ram his policy down the throats of everyone associated with him. I understand that in his early days in Rock· hampton he was an officer in one of the volunteer regiments, and because he could not get his own way he burst up that regiment.

Mr. CovNE: 'rhey drummed him out.

:Yir. MAKN: I supposo it is because he tried to make the people. of Falkirk swallow his opinions that ha was drummed out of Falkirk, as "as so grandiloquently described by the hon. member for Bulimba. The Premier has alwa~T;;: ain1'E:'d at being the dictator in eve.ry v1alk of life in which he is engag€d.

The DEP1JTY SPEAKER: Order! I would point out to the hon. member that the question before the House is the adjournment of the debate.

Mr. MANN: I am pointing out that the Pre· micr attt mpted to dictate to this House, and I wo..s showing that members of this House wanted to adjourn, so that they could consider this question carefully and d€bate it to­morww. I want to go into the whole matter of the financial relations of the States and the Commonwealth, and see if the States can afford to be generous, or if tlw Commonwealth can afford to be generous to the States. If the Commonwealth has not got sufficient money, they cannot spend the money that is needed in the Postal Department. In Cairns they have a little miserable post office. and a bir-g:er one is required. \Y c also want better telephone ser­vice and U<'tter delivery of telegrams.

The DEPUT'Y SPEAKER: Order! I would point out that the question before the House is the adjournment of the debate. I hope the hon. member will keep to that.

i\Ir. i\IANN: I was pointing out that my ekctorate would suffer if the Commonwealth die! not get sufficient money to spend. i\Iorn· bers haYe been discu~.~ing tJ1is question since half-past 3 o'clock, and I think we should ad­journ. The Government members arc supplied with beds and hot suppers. (Laughter.} They get all the conveniences of a hotel and free cabs. (Laughter.) But we get nothing. And if we go on to the veranda, we run the risk of getting pneumonia or some other disease. For these reasons, I would urge the Premier

[Mr. J.11 ann.

to come back into the Chamber and announ­that he is willing to adjourn the House at a reasonable hour, as he feels that t.hG interests of Queensland and the Commouwea.Jth should be propertly attended to at the next conven­tion-that he is willing to give the matter most eamest study, so that financial experts, like the hon. member for Fitzroy, the hon. memher for vYoolloongabba. and other hon. members of that calibr€. may give their views on that matter. If the hon. member for Fitzroy had been at the last conference, he would. have acC€pted the proposals of Sir John Forrest, and we should not have been a.sked to prorogue ParliamBnt for nineteen davs to enable the Premier to go down to M~lbourne. The whole matter would have been settled, and we should have been dis­cussing useful Bills. 'Ve have had six or scv<'n ,, conferences already, and no good has resulted. I think the Premier is ill-advis<;'d in the action he is taking. The people m :\Telbourne will .say that he has only got awav from his own State by prorogum[\ Par­lian{ent, as he could not trust Parl~a· ment while h~ was away. If the Prem1-;r or his colleague goes down to Melbourne, 1t is quite evident they will only reprcser;t the views of members on the Government s1de of the House. As I like a good audience when I am speaking, I call attention to the state of the House.

:\Ir. \VOODS: I call attention to the state of the House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is a quorum. (Government laughter.)

Mr. MANN: The Bmpty, hollow laugh of m<Jmbers on the other side is a presage of what is goinrr to happen in Melbourne. I am so;ry hon. m:mbers on the other side have nothmg better to do than to indulge in noisy laughter.

Mr. D HUNTER: You take politics too seriously.

:\lr. MANN: I believe the hon. membBr is referring to a conversation which took place betwoen himself and another member--

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I shall b€ glad if the hon. member will keep closely to the question before thG House.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: The fourth tim '· (Laughter.)

i\Ir. :\IANN: The hon. member for Wool­loongabba told me on one occasion that i~ I remained with the Government party. w1th mv friends on this side, it was the desue of the Premier to kick out. of the party the hon. member for To'l.nsville, the hon. member fo':, Bulimba, the hon. member for i\Ioreton, and one or two other members.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order!

~lr. MANN: I trust the Premier will see the wisdom of adjouming the debate till a n1ore opportune hour.

Mr. WOODS: I think it is desirable that this deb,1..te should be adjourned. 'rhe Pre· mier gave as a reason for the motion that Queen'sland should be represented at the con­ference. I do not think any member objects to this State being represented, but the ad­journment will allow the House to get into a calmer mood. The Premier told tho House that there was only one man in QuBensland who had a right to go to that conference, and that was the senior member for Rockhampton. If Qu<"ensland is going to be fairly represented at that conference, the opinion of this ChambBr should be given to the man who is going as

Special AdJournment. [4 A.UGUST.] Sper:ial AdJournment. G95

the delegate from Queensland. The hon. gBntleman knows the difference between a delBgatB and a representative.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I think thB hon. member will see that his remarks would be mm-e in order if made upon the previous discussio-n. The q'uestion before the House is the adjo-urnment o.f the debate. I shall be glad if the hon. member will associ­ate his remarks with that question.

Mr. WOODS: Hon. members should be al­lowed time to consider who should go to Mel­bourne to the conference. This should not be a party question-it should be a question for Queensland.

Mr. COTTELL: vVhy make it a party question?

Mr. WOODS: The hon. member will have an opportunity of speaking on this question if

he dare. It is evident to every [12 p.m.] member in the Chamber that dur-

ing the discussion of the previous question the Premier did hi• level best to get the Speaker to o.ccept a motion, "That the question be now put."

The DEPUTY SPEAKElt: Order ! I can­not allow such a statement to be made. It is highly improper to impute motives either to the Premier or to any other hon. memb"r; and I ask the hon. member to be good enough to withdraw the statement.

Mr. WOODS withdrew the statement, bnt hon. members werB justified in drawing their own conclusions from the frequent visits from the Premier's position to the Speaker's chair. Seeing the Premier admitted tbe param<'unt im­Portance of settling- the financial relations between the Commonwealth and the States, it was abso­lutely nece'Sary that the Hon"e, in its present mood, should adjourn.

Mr. ALLEN (Rulloo) thuught the Premier would be well ad vi sed if he allowed the debate to be adjourned. During the rest of the session the House had adjourned at an early hour, and there was no reason why that practice should be departed from.

At 12.25 o'clock a. m., The SPJ!AKER resumed the chair. The debate was continued by Messrs.

KENNA, HARDACRE, BLAIR, LAND, MITCHELL, WINSTANLEY, HUXHAM, and MULCAHY.

At ten mim.tes past 3 o'clock a.m., The SPEAKER said: I call npon the hon.

member for Ipswich, Mr. Maughan, to relieve me in the chair.

Mr. MAUGHAN thereupon took the chair accordingly.

Mr. MULCAHY, resuming his speech, argued that it was unreasonable that members should be compelled to remain at their posts till that hour of the morning, w!wn the.y were so drowsy and fatigued as to he really ,mfit to transact pnblic business in a ~a.tisfactory manner.

The debate was further continued by ~fessrs. MAY and MURPHY.

At 4.30 o'clock a. m.,

Mr. WOODS asked the Speaker's ruling as to whether hon. members were in order in placing their feet on the benches, and thereby damaging the property of the House. The Buildingil Com­mittee appointed by the House had drawn atten­tion to the matter early in the SeSsion.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I rule that, under the epecial circumstance,, hon. members are in order in using the benches as they are doing.

Mr. MURPHY, continuing his speech, argued that hon. members, if they were kept in the

Chamber all night, would not be in a fit condition to discuss the important financial question which would come up at a later hour of the dav.

The debate was further continued ;n similar lines by Mesqrs. DoUGLAS and LENNON.

At 5.50 o'clock a.m., The SPEAKER resumed the chair.

Mr. LENNON, continuing, argued that the . House should be adjourned to allnw hem. mem­bers who had been appointed delegates to the Local Authorit.ieR' Conference an opportunity of attending that conference.

At two minutes to 6 o'clock a. m., The PREMIER : I beg to move that the

question be now put. The SPEAKER : I think the question has

been debatec: at sufficient length.

Mr. LENNON: I do not understand the hon. gentleman.

Mr. HAMILTON : He has honoured you with the ''gag," that is all.

Question-That the question (that the debate be adjourned) be now put-pnt; and the House divided:-

AYES, 32. Mr. Appel Mr. Hawthorn ~· Armstrong H Hunter, D. , Barnes, G. P. " Jackson , Barnes, W. H. , Kidston ,. Barton , MftXwell , Brennan , Moore , Cottell , Paget , Oowap , Petrie , Oribb , Philp ,. Denham , Rankin , F01·sytll , . Somerset , Fox , Stodart ,. Grant ,, Swayne , Gra:rson , Thorn

Gunn , ·walker , Hanran , White Tellers: ~fr. White and Mr. Somerset.

Mr. Airey , Al1en , Barber ,, Blair , Bowman ,, Coyne , Douglas ,. Hamilton " Harducre H Rerbertson

NOES, 31.

, Hunter, J. M. ,. Huxham , Jones ,, Kenna ,, Kerr , IJa.Dd

::\fr. Lennon , Lesina

llfann May

, 1\fcLachlan ~iitchell Mulcahy MUilan ~1urphy Nevitt Payne Ryl~nd Sumner Winstanley Woods

1'ellers: lllr. Allen and Mr. 1\olann.

PAIRS.

Ayes-~ir. Keogh and Mr. Roberts. Noes-Mr. Jenkinson and Mr. Redwood. Resolved in the af!irmative.

Question-That the debate be now adjourned -put ; and the House divided :-

AY.Es, 32. Mr. Airey Mr. Lennon

Allen , Lesina , Barber Mii.nn , !Hair Maugban , Bowman , J.VIay , Coyne ]IJaLachlan , Douglas l\litchell

Hamilton :\iulcahy , Hardacre Mullan , Herbertson Murphy H Hunter, .T. M. Nev1tt , Huxbam Payne , Jones Ryland , Kenna Sumner ., Kerr Wim~tanley .. T,and ,. Woods Tellers: Mr. Barber ana Mr. McLachlan.

596 Special Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Special Adjournment.

NoEs, 33. ~Ir. Appe! , Armstrong ., Harnes, G. P. ,, Earnes, W. H.

J?t1rton ,, Hrennan , Ootte!l , Cowap

Oribb Denbam

, Forsyth Fox Grant

,, Grayson Gunn

,, Hanran , Hawthorn

Mr. Hunter, D. , Jackson , Kidston , :Vlackintosh ,, Maxwell , ::\lloorB , Paget , Petrie , Philp ,, Rankin , Somerset , Stodart ,, Swayne ,, Thorn , Walker , White

Tellers: Mr. Oribb and 1\Ir. Moore.

PAIRS.

Ayes-Mr. Jenkinson and Mr. Redwood. Noes--Mr. Keogh and Mr. Roberts. Resolved in the negative.

Mr. HARDAORJ<J continued the debate, and prefaced his remarks by a reference to the "gag."

Mr. Woons: We will havetogagtheSpeaker.

The SPEAKER : Order! I heard the hon. member for Woothakata use these words, "We will have to gag the Speaker." I ask the hon. member to get up at once and make a proper apology.

GovERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! Mr. WOODS : I was referring to the speaker

on the floor of the House, the hon. member for Leichhardt.

The SPEAKER: I am bound to ta.k8 the hon. member's If he assures me that that is so, I accept assurance.

[7.0 a. m.] Mr. HARDAORE continued his remarks. Several HoNOURABLE :MEMBERS interjecting, Mr. MANN rose to a point of order. Was it

in order for members to cross-question the hon. member for Leichhardt during his speech?

'l'he SPEAKER: As a matter of fact, it is not, an C. I hope the hon. member for Cairns will remember that. (Government laughter.)

Mr. HARD ACRE continued his remarks. In conclusion, he expressed his opposition to the motion.

[7.30 a. m.] The SPEAKER : I shall resume the chair at

a quarter past 9 o'clock. The House resumed at the hour named.

The debate was continued by and MANN nntill1.25 o'clock a. m.

The PREMIER said: Mr. Spenker, as we have now been discussing this rrHttter for the time of three ordinary sitting days, I move that the question be now put. (Opposition diesent and interjections.)

Mr. BOWMAN: You ought to be ashamed of yonnelf.

The SPEAKER : The motion before the House, in my opinion, has been debated for an ample time. I therefore put the question-

Question-That the question be now put­put; and the House divided :-

In division-Mr. BOWMAN said : I desire to make a

statement respecting Mr. May, the hon. member for Flinders. He came to my room about twenty minutes ago, and told me that he had arranged with the bon. member for Wide Bay that for an hour, in the event of a division being taken, they would not vote against each other. It was five

or seven minutes past 11 o'clock when he came to me. In justification of Mr. May's absence I make this explanation .

Mr. MURPHY: I heard him say that he made the arrangement.

Mr. WALKER (Wide Bay): I ibink it is only fair, in view of the statement of the leader of the Opposition, that I should make one, too. (Hear·, hear!) Mr. May and I did haven talk, and he said he would go and see his leader with regard to pairing for one bour, and I said I would go and see my "Whip." I had orders not to pair; I \old Mr. May, and he then went away. When Mr. May comes back he will be able to confirm what I have said.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Division declared-

AYEs, 33. Mr.Appel

, Armstrong , Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, W. H.

Ba.rton , .Brennan ,) Cottell ,, Oowap , Cribb , Denbam , Forsyth ,, Fox , Grant , Grayson ,, Gunn , Hanran , Hawthorn

~r. Hunter D. , Jackson

Kids ton Mackintosh Maxwell JHoore Paget Petrie Philp Ran kin Somerset Stodart Swayne Thorn Walker White

Tellers: Mr. Forsyth and .Mr. Moore.

];Ir. Airey , Allen , Barber

.Bluir

Kenna ,, Kerr ,. Land

NOES, 31. 1\ir.

, J~ayne

, Ryland , Sumner , 1Vinstanley ,, \Voods

Tellers: ~fr. Mnllan and 1fr. ::lfulcahy.

PAIRS.

Ayes-l\:tr. Keogh and Mr. Roberts. Noes-Mr. Jenkinson and Mr. Redwood.

Resolved in the affirmative. The announcement of the division was received

with Government cheers and Opposition counter cheers.

Question-That the House, on its rising at the termination of the "itting appointed fur Thurs­day, the 5th instant, do adjourn until Tuesday, the 24th instant-put; and the House divided :-

AYEs, 33. !t1r. Appel

, Armstrong , Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, W. H.

Rarton , Brennan

Oottell , Cowap , Oribb n Denhnm , Forsyth , Fox , Grant , Grayson

Gunn ,, Hanran ,, Hawthorn

l1r. Hunter, D. , Jack:son Jl Kidston , Mackintosh , Maxwell , J.Ioore , Paget , Petrie , Philp ,. Rankin , Somerset n Stodart , Flwayne , Thorn , VValker , White

Tellers: Mr. Oowap and Mr. Rankin.

Adjournment. [5 AUGUST.]

Mr. Airey , Allen , Barber

Rlair Bowman

, Coyne ., Doug-las , Ha.milton

llardacre , Herbertson

Nmos, 31.

, Hnnter, J. ~L ,, Huxham

Jones Kenna

, Kerr ,, Land

:lfr. Lennon Lesina

, .l:Iann " liaugban

:V[cLachlan Mite hell

, Mulcahy " )fullan

}lurphy Nevitt Payne Ryland Sumner Vrinstanley ~~oods

Tellers: 1fr. Hamilton and Mr.llardacre.

PAIRS.

Ayes-:\fr. Keog-h and :Mr. Roberts. Noes-}!r. Jenkinson and l\Ir. Redwood. Resolved in the affirmative.

ADJOURNMENT. The PRE:\liER : I move that the House do

now adjourn. The SPEAKER: The question is that this

House do now adjourn. Those who are of that opinion say'' Aye"; on the contrary, "No." I think the "Noes" have it.

OPPOSITION MEli!BERs : Divide ! The PREMIER : I claim the votes of all

those members who called "Divide." (Loud laughter.)

The SPEAKER : If the voices of those who called "Divide" are counted with the "Ayes," I think the vote would be un~tnimou8. (Renewed laughter.) I will put the question again.

Question again put ; and the House divided :­

AYEs, 33 ~Ir. Appel

, , Armstrong , EarneR, G. P. , llarnes, 1V. I-I.

Barton , Brennan

Cottell , CowHp ., Cribb

Den ham , Forsyth

Fox , Grant

Gray son Gunn

, 1-Ianr:.tn Hawthorn

)Jr. Hunter, D. , Jackson

Kidston :\1 ackintosh Maxwell :lVIoore

,, Pagct l'etrie

, Philp Ran kin

, Somerset Stodart Swayne Thorn· Walker White

Tellers: :J.1r, Armstrong and )Ir. Grayson.

~lr. A irey All en Barber nlair

., Bowman ,. Ooync , Douglas ,, Hamilton

Hardacre HP-rbertson

X ems, 32.

, Hunter, J. lL Huxbam Jone:'l

, Kenna , Kerr ,, Land

J:lr. Lennon Lesina l\lcLachlan J.\:Iann

, Maughan }lay )iitchell mulcahy l\:Iullan ~furphy ?>evitt Pttyne

, Ryland :sumner Winstanley Woods

TEllers: )fr. Allen and ~Ir. Lennon.

PAIRS .

.Ayes-~Ir. Keogh and 1'fr. Roberts. Noes-:\Ir. Jenkinson and Mr. Redwood. Resolved in the affirmative. The House adjourned at fifteen minutes to 12

o'clock a. m.

Standing Order No. 76. 597