minutes of the regular meeting of the - Manheim Township

MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE MANHEIM TOWNSHIP BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS

MONDAY, AUGUST 9, 2004 – 7:30 P.M. Roll Call: The regular meeting of the Manheim Township Board of Commissioners was held at 7:30 p.m., Monday, August 9, 2004, in the Municipal Building. Members present were: Commissioners Ritter, Bledsoe, Downing, Simpson and Smith, and Manager-Secretary James M. Martin. All in attendance pledged allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, led by Commissioner Downing. There were 33 people in the audience. President Ritter said before they proceeded he wanted to read a Resolution that was passed on September 9, 2002. He said this was Resolution 2002 – 51, which was establishing the rules and regulations in order to conduct pubic meetings in an orderly manner and to provide public participation in such meetings. He read:

“WHEREAS, the Manheim Township Board of Commissioners hold public meetings to conduct the business of the Township, and WHEREAS, the Board of Commissioners, pursuant to the "Sunshine Act," Act of July 3, 1986, P.L. 388, No. 84 65 P.S. 271 et seq., as amended, by providing a reasonable opportunity at each public meeting for residents and/or taxpayers of Manheim Township to comment on matters of concern, official actions or deliberation which are or may be before the Board. THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, by the Board of Commissioners of Manheim Township, in order to conduct all public meetings in an orderly manner and to provide for public participation in such meetings, that the following public meeting rules and regulations shall apply: 1. There will be placed on the agenda for each public meeting a time for

residents and/or taxpayers of the Township to comment on matters of concern, official actions or deliberation which are or may be before the Board of Commissioners. Such time on the agenda shall be titled "Public Comment." The following guidelines are established for this portion of the public meeting:

a. Residents and/or taxpayers shall comment only after being

recognized by the President conducting the meeting, b. Residents and/or taxpayers of the Township shall announce

their names and addresses prior to addressing the Board of Commissioners,

COMMISSIONERS MEETING MINUTES MONDAY, AUGUST 9, 2004 – 7:30 P.M.

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c. The President may rule out-of-order scandalous, impertinent, and redundant comments, or comments the discernible purpose or effect of which is to disrupt the proceedings of the meeting. The President may have persons making such comments removed from the meeting, including forcible removal by the Police if necessary.

d. The President may allocate available time among individuals

wishing to comment. The time may be a period of time such as 10-15 minutes for a group or 2-3 minutes for individuals.

2. At the discretion of the President conducting the meeting, residents

and/or taxpayers of the Township may comment on issues being discussed during the meeting other than during "Public Comment."

3. In the event that there is insufficient time for public comment, the

Board of Commissioners, at its discretion, may continue the public comment to its next regular meeting or to a special meeting occurring in advance of the next regular meeting.”

He said it was resolved this ninth day of September, 2002. That was Resolution 2002-51. President Ritter said before they go on he’d like to make another statement. In the past few weeks, there have been some comments about remarks that he made at a public hearing about a handicapped permit. He said he did not mean to offend anyone. He was simply trying to learn the facts. However, he said if he did offend anyone, he apologized. He meant no harm and did not intend to invade anyone’s privacy. Approval of Minutes: Commissioner Bledsoe moved, and Mr. Smith seconded approving the Minutes of the July 12, 2004 Regular Meeting. President Ritter asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. A member of the audience said he would like to make an objection at this point under the Sunshine Act. President Ritter asked him to announce himself. He said his name was Ron Harper, Jr. He said he was making an objection under the Sunshine Act, which allows anyone, anyone at any time to make an objection at a perceived violation of the Sunshine Act. He said number one. President Ritter asked him if he was a resident of Manheim Township. He said he was Ron Harper of downtown Stevens, East Cocalico. President Ritter asked him again if he was a resident of Manheim Township. Mr. Harper answered certainly not. President Ritter said then he is not allowed to speak at this meeting. Mr. Harper interrupted him and said to let him repeat, let him repeat for him ... President Ritter said he was asking him to ... Mr. Harper interrupted and said no, sir, he was making an objection under the Sunshine Act, which allows anyone at anytime ... President Ritter used the gavel and asked him to ... Mr.


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Harper said it does not specify that he needs to be a resident to make an objection of the Sunshine Act. President Ritter said Mr. Harper could either sit down, or he could leave, or they could escort him out. Mr. Harper said or they could let him speak. He said other Commissioners, they were violating the Sunshine Act, and asked them to allow him to speak. He said they were breaking the law, if he couldn’t allow ... President Ritter asked him if he were going to sit down. Mr. Harper said he would like to address. President Ritter again asked him if he were going to sit down. Mr. Harper said he would, yes, after he talks. President Ritter said no, he wasn’t allowing him to talk. He said he was not a resident. Mr. Harper said he didn’t need to be a resident to make, address the violation of the Sunshine Act. President Ritter asked Mr. Harper to please leave the meeting; he was disturbing the meeting. Mr. Harper said he’d like to make an objection, this was a civil matter. President Ritter said his objection has been heard, then asked him to please leave the meeting. Mr. Harper said but he was allowed to make an objection of the Sunshine Act. President Ritter said OK, he was going to have him removed from this premise. Mr. Harper sighed and said he was? Mr. Harper said well, this was a civil matter, this was the Sunshine Act, which was not a criminal matter. President Ritter addressed a member of the audience and asked him to please remove this gentleman.

Payment of Bills: Vice President Bledsoe moved to approve the August 9th disbursements and to fund the appropriate accounts for the disbursements. He presented bills for the period ending August 9, 2004 from the General Fund in the amount of $76,470.42, from the Sewer Fund in the amount of $242.03, from the Capital Reserve Fund in the amount of $192,335.39, from the Parks Capital Fund in the amount of $1,381.68, and from the Golf Course Fund in the amount of $22,473.95, for a total of $292,903.47, and from the State Highway Aid Fund in the amount of $10,900.90 for a grand total of $303,804.37. Seconded by Mr. Smith. President Ritter asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. Consolidated Financial Reports: Vice President Bledsoe presented the Consolidated Financial Reports for the month of July, 2004. The beginning balance for the total funds which include the General Fund, the Golf Course Fund, the Sewer Fund, the Highway Aid Fund, the General Capital, the Parks Capital, Impact Fees and Fire Fees was $17,202,935.30, with revenues of $495,154.29, expenditures of $1,520,014.56, transfers or adjustments of $2,036.48, leaving an ending balance of $16,180,111.51. Vice President Bledsoe moved that the monthly consolidated financial reports be accepted and filed for audit. Seconded by Mr. Downing. President Ritter asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. Old Business:

President Ritter announced that the Spanish American Civic Association requested that an official of the Township attend the celebration of the 30th anniversary of El Centro Hispano’s founding Thursday, September 23, 2004 from


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5:30 p.m. until 9:00 p.m. He said if any of the Commissioners want to attend, to please notify Mr. Martin. President Ritter announced that for general information, the LIMC meeting for September will be held here in the Township on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 at 7:30 a.m. President Ritter mentioned another announcement that he said everyone had probably seen in the paper. They received notice from the Manheim Auto Auction and by federal regulation, companies that are laying off employees must notify the community where its corporate office is located as well as neighboring communities. Manheim Township has received correspondence from the Manheim Auto Auction regarding these layoffs. President Ritter said the Commissioners have also received a report of the Biological Nutrient Reduction information about nitrates being released into the Chesapeake Bay. He said this is from the State. President Ritter announced that in 2004, there have been a lot of drainage issues. In light of the rainy three weeks that we’ve had, it’s been more than three weeks, the Township Engineer has prepared a report highlighting about 23 or 24 incidents and recommendations to correct these. He said they will be looking at these 23 or 24 recommendations and determining what they will do with them. He said a lot of them are major items that will require the installation of storm sewers in certain areas, etc. He said we’ve had a tremendous amount of rain, in fact, he had just turned on the weather today, that this is the first time since April 6th that we’ve had four days without rain! He said he thought we were getting 100-year rains every week. Commissioner Bledsoe said he wanted to add to that, that the cost of those improvement projects amounts to almost half a million dollars; it’s pretty significant in terms of cost, too, to remedy those situations. President Ritter added and they won’t be done overnight. Some of them require a lot of engineering and planning, and then they have to send them out for bids. First they have to determine which ones will be the priorities, and how they want to do it.

New Business: Penns Crossing – Final Subdivision Plan, Cobblers Court/Royal Hunt Way/Millpond Drive, Zoned R-1 with TDR Option

Commissioner Simpson announced that this will be the first time that the Commissioners will make a motion regarding the approval of a plan in the shortened form. She said for those in the audience who used to listen to her read pages of modifications and so on and so forth, they were trying a little more streamlined way of getting these approved. She said she was sure nobody would miss the longer version that she used to read. Commissioner Simpson


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then moved to approve the Penns Crossing Phase III Final Subdivision Plan, Cobblers Court/Royal Hunt Way/Millpond Drive, Zoned R-1 with TDR Option. The approval is contingent upon the owner/applicant’s written acceptance of the conditions outlined in the Township Review Letter, dated August 9, 2004 and subject to the submission of information meeting those conditions. Commissioner Simpson said that’s how they’ve changed the procedure. Instead of her reading, or somebody reading the Township review letter, which can be very long and technical, they are approving it based on the applicant complying with that review letter. Seconded by Mr. Bledsoe. President Ritter asked if there was a representative in attendance from Penns Crossing. Greg Strausser with Strausser Surveying and Engineering of 2586 Lititz Pike was in attendance. President Ritter asked Mr. Strausser if he had any questions about the Township review letter. Mr. Strausser said none at all. He said he just had one comment, that he was honored to be the first plan using the abbreviated format. There was laughter. He thanked the Board and said it seems like a minor change, but actually keeps things moving along, once they get to this point. President Ritter thanked him. President Ritter asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. Commissioner Smith said he didn’t know if it was said, but asked if it did have Planning Commission approval. Commissioner Simpson indicated that it did. President Ritter asked again if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. Mr. Strausser thanked the Board. St. Peter’s Evangelical Lutheran Church – Preliminary/Final Subdivision and Land Development Plan, Lititz Pike/Delp Road, Zoned R-2

Commissioner Smith moved to approve the 60-day time extension request for the St. Peter’s Evangelical Lutheran Church Project for action by the Manheim Township Commissioners. The request will extend the time period in which to act on the plan from August 17, 2004 to October 18, 2004. Seconded by Mr. Downing. President Ritter asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. President Ritter asked if there was anyone in attendance from this project. There was no one. Motion carried unanimously.

Bid Award for Purchase of One (1) Single Axle Dump Truck

Commissioner Downing explained that this was a motion that they made at their June 28, 2004 administrative meeting where they authorized the proper Township officials to bid for a single axle dump truck, and he then moved to award the bid for one (1) single axle dump truck to the apparent low bidder, Five Star International, in an amount not to exceed $139,101.00. Seconded by Mr. Bledsoe. President Ritter asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously.


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Resolution 2004 – 48: Authorizing the Temporary Installation of a Banner for Landis Woods Art Show Commissioner Bledsoe moved to adopt Resolution 2004 – 48 authorizing the temporary installation of a banner across Lititz Pike at Stauffer Mansion for the Landis Woods Art Show. Seconded by Mr. Smith. President Ritter asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. A member of the audience asked the date of the art show. Commissioner Simpson and President Ritter answered September 25th. There were no other questions or comments. Motion carried unanimously. Commissioner Smith said he would like to say that this art show has been going on ever since he’s been Commissioner, and it’s an extremely outstanding production over at the Boettcher House. He encouraged everybody in the room to attend, if they possibly can. The quality of the art there is great, the ambience of being outside at Boettcher House, getting to see that facility and the surrounding woods is an experience that everybody ought to go through. He said they’ve put a lot of hard work into it and it’s a great place. President Ritter added that they have some nice trails there, too. Olde Hickory – Preliminary Land Development Plan, Oregon Pike/Landis Valley Road/Olde Hickory Road, Zoned R-3 President Ritter asked if there was anyone in attendance representing this plan. Joyce Gerhard from RGS Associates was in attendance. President Ritter asked her to explain to them how many extensions they’ve been given. Ms. Gerhard said she did not know at this point exactly how many it’s been. President Ritter said it’s been eight. She said excuse me. President Ritter said again it’s been eight. She said it’s been eight. President Ritter asked her to tell them why they did another one. Ms. Gerhard said the longest period of time that there was nothing being done on the project was that the hotel and Olde Hickory had an agreement that concerned the improvements along Landis Valley Road and Oregon Pike. When the Township would require that those improvements would be put in, and that being curb and sidewalk, mostly, that they would split the cost of those. But between the time that that agreement was written and now, the hotel had been sold to another owner, so it took some time for those new owners to come to an understanding that they had to actually participate in making the improvements that are being required. That has come to an understanding; it has taken them a little bit longer than they thought to work through the technical stormwater issues with the Township engineer, but they have, she thought they had a total of fifteen outstanding comments, and eight of those are technical, and the rest of them are administrative-type comments. They feel certain that they can address those. Commissioner Simpson asked Mr. Molchany, Township Director of Planning and Zoning, if the technical comments, did he have any doubts that they could be resolved between now and November, if they would grant this extension, or are they of a more serious nature? Mr. Molchany said he had no doubt that they could be addressed. Commissioner Simpson asked what guarantee they could give the Township if they granted this ninth time extension


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that in fact by November 8th they will be ready to move forward. Ms. Gerhard said quite honestly, it’s only been in the last three months that they’ve actually been working on this again. Most of this has been the gap of time where they were trying to come to an understanding with the hotel. She said they have been working and resubmitting to the Township. Their plan is to have the comments back to the Township next week. She said what she’d like to do is set up a meeting with staff next week to go over each of the comments individually and how they plan to address them. She said that was the assurance that she had to them, that they were working to work through this, quite honestly, she said she was hoping that they would be here for approval this evening. She said as much as the Township wants to get the plan through, they want to get it through also. Commissioner Simpson said so there are fifteen outstanding comments, which she asked if Ms. Gerhard said half were stormwater? Ms. Gerhard answered yes. Commissioner Simpson asked what about the other half? Ms. Gerhard answered that there was a comment that at final plan E&S approval would have to be required and the financial guarantee ... Commissioner Simpson said the administrative ... Ms. Gerhard said all administrative things. Commissioner Simpson said what about modifications, had the Township given direction on modifications? Mr. Molchany said yes, the Planning Commission did make recommendations to ... Ms. Gerhard said correct. Mr. Molchany said there have been some directions given ... Planning Commission ... but until the plan is formally acted on ... Commissioners ... formal action ... Commissioner Simpson asked Ms. Gerhard when she thought they would be in front of the Planning Commission again. Ms. Gerhard said actually the Planning Commission has recommended approval. Commissioner Simpson said based on a clean review? Ms. Gerhard said correct. President Ritter said he forgot to introduce the Director of Planning and Zoning, Sean Molchany; he’s the Director of Planning and Zoning and that’s why he has all the answers. Commissioner Simpson said she would reluctantly make a motion to approve the 91-day time extension request for the Olde Hickory project for action by the Manheim Township Commissioners. The request will extend the time period in which to act on the plan from August 9, 2004 to November 8, 2004. She said this will be the last time extension the Board will grant. Ms. Gerhard said she understood that. Seconded by Mr. Downing. President Ritter asked if there were any questions or comments from the Board or the audience. Commissioner Smith said if they say this will be the last one, he asked Mr. Molchany what would be the maximum length of time they can extend it? Mr. Molchany said the applicant can request ... Commissioner Smith said full well knowing that this is their last time, he asked Ms. Gerhard if she wanted to extend the date a little bit. Ms. Gerhard laughed. Commissioner Simpson said ninety days is typical. Commissioner Bledsoe said listening to the discussion, there was a lot of lapse between not that much happening and now moving forward. Ms. Gerhard agreed. Commissioner Bledsoe said so if they give that kind of stipulation, what happens if they don’t meet this? Mr. Molchany said they could request another time frame extension, or the Commissioners could act on the plan with the outstanding issues, either for approval or denial. Commissioner Bledsoe said he’d hate to get 95% of the


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way and all of a sudden there would be a blockade in front of this group, because it seems like they were getting to utopia, they are getting to the end. Ms. Gerhard agreed and said they are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Commissioner Bledsoe agreed and said that was what he meant to say; that was another way of expressing it. Mr. Molchany said typically the staff is not ... action for the Commissioners without ... technical items. The housekeeping items are typically always there ... clean review letter ... outstanding ... non-technical items. So, hopefully, if there’s another meeting with the staff next week, they can be well on their way to addressing those ... Ms. Gerhard said she didn’t think she wanted to extend it further. Commissioner Smith said OK, he just wanted her to be comfortable with this. Ms. Gerhard said she appreciated his thought. He said he knew she wasn’t comfortable with this, but that she would understand what’s happening with this. President Ritter asked if there were any other questions or comments from the Board or the audience. There were none. Motion carried unanimously. Ms. Gerhard thanked the Board. Commissioner Simpson wished her good luck.

Department Reports: President Ritter asked if there were any Department Reports this evening. Commissioner Downing said some of the residents might have incurred a problem at the Overlook Activities Center. He said the Township has had some pretty severe damage to the flooring in that center due to the flood waters. He said the Township is in a position now where it is being recommended that the floor must be replaced. He said he wasn’t quite sure, and addressed Manny, when that building was built, or when that floor was installed, and said maybe Manny knew. He said it will be extremely difficult he thought to replace that floor instead. He said what they were being told was that it was probably going to have to be replaced and they were now securing bids to get it replaced, but in the interim a lot of the activities in the center, namely the skating and volleyball, have been terminated or eliminated, except for one volleyball court, so residents ... And, he said that’s a heavily used facility. They looked at the numbers the other day. They have roughly 60,000 skaters a year that skate in there, both in-line and roller skate. He said he thought it was close to 20,000 volleyball players have used that facility. So, he said they were going to struggle with what to do with it in terms of number one, what it’s going to cost to replace the floor, and more importantly what they’re going to do to avoid it happening again in the future. He asked if anyone had been inconvenienced by that facility in the last month, the fact that it’s not open? He said Nelson. Nelson Rohrer said he had a question – that was installed new. They did it all ... sub-floor ... curious to know how it flooded ... covered by the Township insurance. Commissioner Downing said it’s not covered by insurance, and his understanding was it was surface water. He asked Mr. Martin if that was correct. Mr. Martin said yes. Commissioner Downing said it wasn’t water coming up under the floor, it was surface water that came in through the building; it actually came in from the golf course side, from what he understood also, not the tennis court side. Mr. Rohrer said something that was inaudible. Mr. Martin said yes. Commissioner Downing said surface water. Another inaudible comment was made.


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Commissioner Simpson asked if there was a date, and addressed Mr. Martin, for the opening of the skateboard park? Mr. Martin said no, he didn’t have a date today. They both agreed that it would be soon, very soon. Commissioner Simpson said it was exciting; it was a project where they had kids involved in the planning, junior and senior high skateboarders. She said that is an activity that a lot of kids like to participate in, and it’s so limited in public areas. She said she was excited about it. Commissioner Downing said the skate park is located immediately behind the Activities Center. It was at one time several tennis courts there which were removed in recent months and a concrete skate park was erected. He said they had originally scheduled an opening on August 8th, but they ran into some problems with the contractor in terms of some work that they felt was unsafe for the skaters. So, he said he thought the plans currently were maybe next week to open the park, and asked Mr. Martin if that was true. President Ritter said close. Commissioner Downing said so if anyone gets a chance, drive over there. It’s very unique if they haven’t seen one of these skate parks. He said many of us are too old to even think of using a skate park. There was laughter. Commissioner Downing said he was speaking of himself. President Ritter said there was a gentleman in the back who wanted to speak and he asked him to come forward and give his name. Commissioner Simpson asked if he was one of the participants in the design team? He answered no, but he lives near there. Jeff Kramer of 1932 Heatherton Drive asked what kind of measures will be taken in order to make sure something like this doesn’t happen again. Commissioner Downing asked something like what? Mr. Kramer said like the flooding. Commissioner Simpson said at the Overlook Activities Center. Mr. Kramer agreed. Commissioner Downing said they are looking into that now. Commissioner Smith said they were going to have a meeting with the engineer. It was previously a skating rink, as he understood it, underneath, it was built underneath it, then it was raised above it, the floor, the flooring was raised above it. He addressed Nelson Rohrer and said he brought up a good point, but he was led to believe that some of it was, there wasn’t a total seal underneath, that there are some gaps in the seal underneath, also. But, he said that was second-hand knowledge. Mr. Rohrer asked if he could speak. Commissioner Smith said sure. Mr. Rohrer said he remembered when they redid that center, they had quite an extensive discussion as to what to do with that floor, and to the best of his memory, they put in a whole new floor, because what was underneath there was not acceptable for a long-term, viable, level floor. And he said that was the big concern. He said the previous floor had trouble with ... coming up underneath. He said to the best of his memory they re-did the whole floor, so they would have a sub-flooring ... sub-flooring so they would have a good solid base for the new floor that they put on top of it. President Ritter said apparently it did the job, because as he heard, the water did not come up from below, it was running in. He asked if that was right and some of the Commissioners said it was surface water. He said it didn’t come up from down below and through the ceiling, or whatever it was put on there. Mr. Rohrer said it was an ice skating rink ... left in tact ... wooden floor put on it originally, and that was all removed. And they didn’t want to experience the same problems that that created, so ... floor put in. But the water coming in from the outside, that’s a whole different issue. Commissioner Simpson asked Mr. Kramer if he came here tonight to ask a question about the Overlook Activities Center? Mr. Kramer said no, he came here because he’s in Boy Scouts and he’s working on a Merit Badge.


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Commissioner Simpson asked him which badge he was working on. Mr. Kramer answered “Citizenship and the Community.” Commissioner Simpson asked him what else he had to do. Mr. Kramer answered he had it all done, he just had to attend a town meeting of some kind, take an agenda, take notes, and participate in the discussion. Commissioner Bledsoe told him they could let him help replace the floor if he needed to do more work! There was laughter. Someone mentioned an Eagle project. Commissioner Smith said he was about the first student that has stood up and come forward during the meeting and he thanked him. Mr. Kramer said you’re welcome. Commissioner Simpson congratulated him. Commissioner Downing told President Ritter there was another comment. A member of the audience began speaking. President Ritter asked him to please come forward and give his name. David E. Karr of 168 Buch Avenue said on the Activities Center, over the past years, there were a lot of things done to the floor, steamrollers ran over it, a lot of it had to do with the expansion of it. There were modifications the whole way around the perimeter, it was cut sometimes 2, 3, 4 times. That’s why the kick boards at the bottom are out so far. And he said it’s a maple floor; it picks up any moisture, it’s going to expand, it pushes against the concrete barriers that are around the outside. He said they used to have wood barriers, which would allow for the expansion, and then everything is all block wall now the whole way around it. It’s expanded and it’s got to go somewhere, so it’s going up. They used to take a ten-ton steamroller in there to level it out, once it dried out and flatten it out. He said he wasn’t saying that was the answer, but that’s a lot of the cause of the expansion on the floor itself, from his past experience. Commissioner Smith said that was good information; they will have a meeting with the engineers to get to the bottom of this because, like him and like the other questions out there, he said he couldn’t see going ahead with a fix, unless they are assured that it will have some semblance of fixing the problem. Mr. Karr said well, that’s it, when they put the new one in, it was in bad shape, it needed replaced, there was no doubt about it. But it wasn’t allowed enough for the expansion; it kept getting cut and cut and cut. He said like he said that was why the kick boards were out. Some of them were out as much as six inches. And it just doesn’t have the room to expand with those block walls that are up on the sides. It used to be just 2 x 4’s and plywood, years and years ago, and it gave it that chance to expand, that extra movement for it, so it didn’t come up, so it didn’t roll up. But that’s his input, because he refastened a lot of those kick boards and he knew what was under them, so he hoped it was some help. The Commissioners all agreed that it was a great help. Commissioner Smith said they were talking about possibly over $100,000 now for this. Vin Kneizys of 1653 Leona Avenue said RCA had used wood floors back in World War II and their experience with the wood floors was that if water gets on them, and this is why the plant changed to small pieces of wood, they can replace sections, but unless they fix the water seepage problem, they were wasting their time and their money. He said but they could repair that in sections, as they did. It depends on the length of the boards and how they were joined. So, he said they want to take a look at that. Commissioner Smith said they’ve done that in the past, and that’s why they are at the point now ... Mr. Kneizys said they’re beyond that? He asked if it buckled? The


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Commissioners answered that it cupped, in a number of places. Mr. Kneizys said oh, the wood cupped? Commissioner Downing said and they are telling them they can’t run the weight on ... Mr. Kneizys said yes, if it’s cupped then they will have a problem, but if it just lifted, then they could ease that as the gentleman said, they have an expansion/contraction problem. Commissioner Downing thanked him for his input. A member of the audience said Mr. Martin should answer this problem; he was sure he knew what it was. He said when they build gym floors, then he gave his name, E. E. Murry, and said he was a resident. He said again, when they build gym floors, in a school, he’s seen a building, many themselves, he’s seen many gym floors swell and buckle up. He said unless they can control the humidity, they’ll never be able to control wood floors. He said it’s just that simple. When they build a new school and they decide in the summer time they are not going to turn the air conditioning on and control the humidity, it’s guaranteed they will have buckled floors. So, wherever it’s getting the humidity from, he said he wasn’t that familiar with the installation up there, he guessed they were talking about the old roller skating rink, and asked if he was right. He said so unless they can control the humidity, they will always be subject to cupping, buckling, and as they know last week we had 96% humidity, and there is no wood floor made that will take that. He said here was a known architect that’s done many schools. Commissioner Bledsoe asked him if he was looking at other materials in some of his building projects. Mr. Murry said pardon? Commissioner Bledsoe asked if he was using other materials versus wood in some of these projects? Mr. Murry said he guessed there were some other materials; there are some other materials, and he said Jim would be more up-to-date on that because he’s doing schoolhouses all the time. Commissioner Simpson asked if that was for the state. Mr. Murry said but it is a real problem. He said on a two-story gymnasium, with a full basement underneath, in a new school down in Hanover, the upstairs floor buckled and it grew nine inches, because the school wanted to save the energy costs of turning off the air conditioning and not having the humidity controlled over the summer. And that was the second floor! He said unless they can control the humidity, wood will never hold up for them. President Ritter said they’ve certainly had humidity this year. Richard McKenna of 232 Cobblestone Lane said the residents of Cobblestone are looking for, they have a problem with four tractor trailers parking in and around Cobblestone Lane, two are up on Buch and two are on Cobblestone Lane. One they definitely know is a leased truck out of Texas, and he lives on Blossom Hill. He said the trucks are parked legally, so far as that goes, they are legally parked. He said his neighbors don’t want him up there, so now he goes down to Mr. McKenna’s neighborhood. He said they did circulate a petition, which he had with him. He said there are about 300 homes in the area and they have 300 signatures that will match that. If there is some way of marrying the community, whether it be zoning, isolate industrial and/or commercial from residential, to do the same with the trucks. He asked if the trucker has the right to do his living, then answered yes, he does. He said he is a commercial driver, and he didn’t think they’d want him bringing home a cattle truck. He said they are decent enough people. It’s not a question of bad people – they are good people. They are making a living, they are supporting families, young families. But he


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said some of the residents will come out, his phone rings, he’s the President of one of the two boards at Cobblestone, and they spoke with the driver. It’s a legal street and therefore he’s going to park there. President Ritter said it’s not a state highway. Mr. McKenna said it’s a public road. President Ritter said he thought the Police were working on an Ordinance. Commissioner Smith said yes, at the present time, part of the problems with the fix is that they can control if the trucker parks his cab, say on the big rig, they can have him remove the cab, but they can’t have him remove the trailer. He asked Commissioner Simpson if he was right, and said that the trailer is the issue, behind the cab, that he can take that and legally park it now, just unhitch and leave it somewhere. But he said they were working on that problem also. He asked Commissioner Simpson how soon they said they would have something. Commissioner Simpson said fairly quickly; they are working on it. She said she thought right now this truck or these trucks are parked on Cobblestone? Mr. McKenna said two on them are on Cobblestone, two are on Buch, right on top of Cobblestone. Commissioner Smith said there are certain streets the Ordinance applies right now that they can’t park on and he didn’t know if that was one or not. Commissioner Simpson said she thought if they got a complaint, which she would certainly think a petition signed by 300 residents would be, then what he must do is submit that petition to the Commissioners, and they must pass a Resolution to add that to the streets. There is an older Resolution that was approved back in the 80’s. Commissioner Smith said right. Commissioner Simpson said at the time it was approved, it addressed that issue but only on specific streets. She said what they wanted to do now, before they get the next Resolution passed, which will be a little broader, would be to start to add specific streets to this original Resolution. She said she thought by giving the Commissioners the petition right now, that they can then. Commissioner Smith asked Mr. Molchany if that would be helpful. Mr. Molchany said yes. Commissioner Simpson said they could now amend that 80’s Resolution, add Cobblestone, add their streets, and at least that would take care of part of the problem short-term. Mr. McKenna said the biggest part of the problem is where will that truck driver go now? He said he’s created one problem for the community. President Ritter said they have that same problem over on the Oregon Pike over one being parked there, but that’s a State highway. Commissioner Smith said there is nothing they can do about that. President Ritter said he knew, that it was a State highway, and they can’t do a thing about it. Mr. McKenna said right. Commissioner Smith said they cannot prohibit a guy from parking his rig over there at all. Commissioner Downing asked if there was any chance they could cut a deal with the commercial businesses on Lititz Pike, park there, he was thinking of the rear of Bubbie’s Bagels. He said he was not putting the problem on Bubbie’s Bagel, but. Ursula Hohman of 236 Cobblestone Lane said her significant other is one of the drivers of the truck that parks on Cobblestone Lane. She said they have from day one right when the cops showed up at their front door telling them that there have been complaints. They sat down with the police officers, they told them what they need to do, where it needs to be parked. She said they have approached different Lancaster shopping centers, Stauffers, various different companies where they see trucks parked, if they could park there overnight. She said the longest period, it never sits there for more than a 24-hour period, except for Friday night to Sunday morning. She said if her


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significant other was not able to park his vehicle there, he would never be home. She said she was pregnant; they’re going to have a baby. So, saying in six months when she has a baby, if he is not able to park his vehicle there, he will never see his child, but Friday to Sunday, because he is based out of Carlisle. If he would have to leave his truck in Carlisle, that’s where he would stay. She said she understood it was a big issue, but they are the only truck that parks there that lives in Cobblestone. She said like they said the other gentleman lives in Blossom Hill, and she didn’t know where the two trucks that park along Buch Avenue, she hasn’t seen in some period of time. President Ritter said but none of these other places would allow him to park? Ms. Hohman said no. Commissioner Smith said he knew the guy who lives in the Settlements parks in front of Quality Inn, along the highway. Ms. Hohman and Mr. McKenna said right. Commissioner Smith said he’s been doing that for a long time. Commissioner Downing asked how about the Amish farm behind them, and asked if they’d touched base with them. Ms. Hohman said they haven’t actually gone to any private residents, no, but they have, like she said, gone to Stauffers, gone to Lancaster Shopping Center, went to the K-Mart Plaza, where they have seen trucks parked, and there are specific signs there that say no overnight truck parking, to see if they could somehow cut a deal with them; they have huge parking lots. She said she understood that they don’t want commercial trucks parked there, but if it’s the difference between her seeing her significant other and not, they have done their homework and they’re not getting, being successful. Commissioner Bledsoe said he knew that this lady was bringing up a concern which she is in a quandary – what does she do? Her significant other – that was his living – driving a truck. Mr. McKenna said that was correct. Commissioner Bledsoe said he had brothers that were truck drivers. He asked if there was something in this Township they could do to designate an area where they could park trucks? He said maybe they would charge a certain fee or something like that. He said now they have a problem that there’s no resolution to. Ms. Hohman agreed and said they’ve approached the company about that and if there is a parking fee, that is something that they would pay out of their pocket, and the company would reimburse them for it. She said that was something that they were more than willing to do. Mr. McKenna said OK. Ms. Hohman said if it means her seeing her significant other or not and in six months, him seeing his child, because if he is not home every night, it’s going to be Saturday/Sunday. She said Friday nights, some nights he travels to New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, if he gets in traffic, he’s not home some night, Friday nights until midnight, and then have to leave out 1:00 or 2:00 Sunday afternoon. She said they have because they’ve been approached multiple times and on the petition thing, she as the homeowner, was not approached to sign it. Mr. McKenna said Drew was and he said they didn’t want it. Ms. Hohman said that he’s not the homeowner. President Ritter said he understood her problem – she needs a place to park the truck. Commissioner Smith said he’s the Commissioner that deals with the Police Department and they will take that to ... the Commissioners, and he talked to ... this morning and he apologized to him and said they’ve been working trying to find a parking place for a long time and haven’t been successful, but he didn’t accept that as a really good solution or a good answer, so he said he will redouble and see if they can’t as Commissioner Bledsoe said, come up with some area within the Township and maybe they have to get into some businesses, talk to some people where they have large areas. He spoke to


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Commissioner Downing and said he didn’t know if PPL has an old area down there, but there’s some way they ought to be able to work out this issue, because Manheim Township is a big area. Ms. Hohman said right. Mr. McKenna said thanks. Lew Kuhn of Buch Avenue said his ex-wife’s father drives truck and he used to park his truck over where it used to be Getty Markets. Now it’s Bubba’s, right there in the back, along the dumpsters, as long as it was moved within by Monday morning. He used to stay for the weekend. They had no problem with it. He said he didn’t know if Bubba’s. Commissioner Simpson asked if he meant there on the ... President Ritter said on Lititz Pike. Commissioner Downing said Bubbie’s Bagel? Mr. Kuhn said it’s on the corner of mostly Lititz Pike ... President Ritter said Buch Avenue and Lititz Pike. Mr. Kuhn said they can get in from Buch Avenue. He said he used to park his rig there. He used to detach sometimes and take the tractor to his house, other times he’s left both the trailer and the truck there. He’s also taken the trailer and dropped it off in Ephrata, up there by Wal-Mart. He took the tractor back down to what was at the time Gettymart and dropped it off. They didn’t really have too much of a problem with it, they just told him not to make a habit of it. Commissioner Smith asked if Wal-Mart still had a policy that they allowed people to park in their lots? Mr. Kuhn said Wal-Mart does, but he saw where Ms. Hohman was coming from, unless she can, he needs to get at least his tractor, at least he’s a resident. If he could at least, maybe his tractor could stay there; drop the trailer off in Ephrata. He thanked the Board. Dave Karr said he was just saying at the meeting that Keens Truck Leasing over there on Oregon Road is a large one; he has multi-trailers there, tractors there, he leases them out, he rents out trailers. He said that would be one of the places he would suggest. It’s right there off of Oregon Road. President Ritter said yes, he’s close by, right there near the airport. Mr. Karr agreed or said down by the fire station. A member of the audience said off of Flory Road there is Keen’s Leasing. A member of the audience said no, that’s the other one. President Ritter agreed that was the other one. The member of the audience said they would allow them to park their tractor-trailers there because they ... June ... as long as they didn’t block anything and they could get out, they could park there as long as they wanted. They would just have to let them know. Jim McCall of 1721 Crooked Oak Drive said tonight he was representing the Celebrate Life Christian Church and on the 29th of June they asked for an extension to complete the final submission for the Church which would have extended to the end of August. He said he came tonight expecting to be on the agenda, and his concern now was do they need to do a further extension? Commissioner Smith asked him to please stand by a second. Mr. Molchany said he indicated he had a request that should have been on the agenda this evening? Mr. McCall said when he talked to Lisa on the 21st, she indicated that it would be on the agenda. Mr. Molchany asked if there was a written request that came in. Mr. McCall said for the extension? Mr. Molchany said yes. Mr. McCall said yes, they got a letter back saying it was extended to the 31st of August. Mr. Molchany said OK, then it was extended to the 31st of August? Mr. McCall said yes. Mr. Molchany said if they choose to have another timeframe request, they would need


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to submit another timeframe extension. Mr. McCall said he would have asked for more if he didn’t think they would be here tonight, but they are not here. Mr. Molchany said well, he would need to do that formally and then it can be submitted for consideration at their next regularly scheduled meeting which would be the administrative meeting in August, in two weeks. Mr. Molchany had a few other comments, but they were inaudible. The Commissioners said it would be in three weeks. Mr. McCall asked if they would be receiving information about why it was not on the agenda tonight. Mr. Molchany said if they haven’t submitted something formally in writing, there is nothing to place on the agenda for this evening. He said just because their timeframe is up ... Mr. McCall said no, no, he’s at the final plan. Mr. Molchany said he’s at the final plan? Mr. McCall said yes. Mr. Molchany said the final plan, based on the latest outstanding review letter on June 9, 2004 ... Mr. McCall said yes. Mr. Molchany said there are seventeen zoning comments, and then there are ... Mr. McCall said he thought that was inaccurate. Mr. Molchany said there were three stormwater comments ... Mr. McCall said he thought they were all done. Mr. Molchany said well, the plan hasn’t been resubmitted by their engineer for re-evaluation, so, therefore, this June 9th letter is still the latest and greatest letter, until something is resubmitted to be re-evaluated. Mr. McCall said he would check on that and thanked him. President Ritter thanked him. Commissioner Simpson addressed Mr. Molchany and said if Mr. McCall needs to ask for another 90 days, when does he have to have the written letter in? Mr. Molchany said he should have it in as soon as possible, but the deadline should be Thursday before noon ... Commissioner Downing said their next meeting would be three weeks from tonight. Mr. McCall said he understood. President Ritter said it would be the 26th at noon. Mr. Molchany said that was correct. Patti McClune said she was a resident of Manheim Township. She addressed President Ritter and said she was the person he was referring to with the handicapped placard. She said two weeks ago she was there and asked for his resignation. She asked if he had made a decision on this. President Ritter said yes, he was not going to resign. Ms. McClune said OK, also, she failed to understand why he even asked the question in the first place, because he had asked her husband and her that question at the Grand Opening of the Overlook Golf, Mini Golf Course. She said they answered his question honestly and truthfully by telling him that she was the one with the placard and she was the one that had chronic asthma and a few other health ailments. She said he didn’t let it go. He had to ask the question and pursue it at a public meeting, and that was what she was having trouble understanding, why. President Ritter said he didn’t want to get into an argument with her, but at that time all he asked her husband was who was handicapped, and he just said she was, and he left it go at that. He said the first time that he knew what her problem was was after the meeting where he said that she came up after the meeting and told him that she has asthma. He said as he said in the beginning, he was sorry if he offended anybody, it was not meant to be that way. He said again he was very sorry if he offended anybody, he wasn’t questioning anybody, he said he would say probably he was more or less just curious. Ms. McClune said but to say he didn’t realize handicapped people could walk was kind of ridiculous, and as for his apology, it’s four weeks too late. President Ritter thanked her.


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Ed McClune of Candlewyck Road addressed President Ritter and said that President Ritter asked him that question. He said he answered it truthfully and he told him what was wrong with his wife. He said that President Ritter said who’s handicapped to him, and it was more or less in private. President Ritter agreed. Mr. McClune said that his wife was, and that President Ritter said “well, nobody looks handicapped to me, I’m not handicapped.” He said that President Ritter said that, and that he then said well, his wife has asthma. So, he said President Ritter brought it up in a public meeting and asked him the same identical question. He said President Ritter said he didn’t get the answer, but he did get the answer, because he had run into Commissioner Downing and he said what a wonderful this is, even though he opposed the miniature golf course. He said it was really nice over there, but he said President Ritter questioned him as to why he was parking in a handicapped place. And he said because his wife was handicapped. So, theoretically, he said President Ritter has no right to question anybody that hangs a handicapped placard up. He said only the people that own the facility, which he said President Ritter doesn’t, the residents do. If President Ritter thought there was a violation of the handicapped placard, then he had the right as a citizen to call the Police if they were taking his space or he thought they were using a space that’s not them. He said to let him integrate some, add something else to this thing. He said he went up to see the President in York. They had a handicapped parking space. He said it was a very humid day and his wife couldn’t breathe outside, so she sat in the car and she used her equipment that she used, with the air conditioning running. He said there was Secret Service Police all over it. The Secret Service man was doing his job. He came up, tapped the window, opened the door and said, “Madam, why are you running your vehicle?” He said she said “Because I’m handicapped.” He said he asked her if she had identification. She showed it to him. He didn’t ask what was wrong with her, didn’t bring it up before the President spoke. He said President Ritter had his answer there. He said the only thing he could say was he felt personally that since he speaks just about every meeting, some of them he has commended them on some of their products, most of them he has a difference. But he felt that that was brought on to more or less agitate him, because they know that he can put a gorilla suit on with anyone of them, or he could put a gentlemen’s suit on with anyone of them. But, he felt that that was a set-up, that President Ritter already knew the answer to that question, when it was asked. He said and again, tonight, he read the rules of a meeting. He said he’s sat in this thing and he’s had numerous times, when they were discussing the sewer, have a policeman, plain clothes. He said now, he’s attended some of the other meetings in the other Townships. He said now, when they feel it necessary to have an officer of the law in there, they have somebody in uniform. He said he thought Manheim Township was stooping to a new low by bringing Police in there that nobody knows they were in there. He said President Ritter read the rules and the riot act and “we’ll have you removed.” He said well. President Ritter said that was enough, they’ve, everybody knew that he read the Resolution and that, and he thought they were just going over things ... Mr. McClune said that was fine, he got his point across. President Ritter thanked him for his comments. Mr. McClune said he was ... Mary Carly of 1083 Whitemarsh Drive, and Mandy Ault of 1079 Whitemarsh Drive, said they were representing the four neighbors on Whitemarsh Drive that the Township sent


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a letter to for the detention basin. Ms. Carly said the other two neighbors were not able to attend tonight. She said in the letter they asked them to each pay $200 toward working on fixing the detention basin. She said there were a lot of things let unclear from her letter when she asked for the main pipe to be unclogged and they said they would unclog it, but they were unsure whether that meant that it would then be fixed. There was nothing about reseeding, regrading, anything that would be done if digging would occur. She said their other concern with this was that the eight years they’ve been at their home, it has never been working right. Either the top storm water, it took three years before someone came to regrade it. She said as she sat through the meetings the last two years and she saw developers and builders come through and they approve the plans, she asked if there was someone from the Township that when a project is done comes and inspects to make sure that it is done correctly? She said she felt at this point that for some reason this detention basin was left due to the fact that the original developer or whatever, left town. She said she felt that it took three years just to regrade to the specifications for the top stormwater system. She said she didn’t feel that that should have been something that should have happened within the Township. She said if a project is approved, she assumed that someone from the Township, and when a development is done, someone is there to make sure that what the builder or developer said is there is going to be done. She said it took three years and having to then eventually to go through escrow to get the top water system done. She said now they were working on an underground pipe system that was put in, but even the map with the plans isn’t accurate. She said it wasn’t what they were told when they had met with other people, of the pipe system that was put in. She said she was very leery right now that they’re being asked to fix something that has not worked in the eight years that they’ve been there. None of the four homeowners were ever told about the underground piping system, and that is not part of the approval of that development. No one has been able to show them that. It took two years before someone could even find the pipe layout for them. She said the Township came out last summer, Mr. Martin and Mr. Ritter, and tried to dig a hole to even reach the pipe. She said that two foot hole is still there. She said she just felt that it’s been an afterthought, that whatever happened in the initial dealing, whoever left, that they left this mess for the residents to take, and she felt that there’s a lemon law for cars, there has to be some recourse for residents who buy a house in good faith. She said she would assume that the regrading and everything would have been working for a couple of years before they were even asked to take care of something. In the eight years she’s been there this has not worked at all. Ms. Ault said she looked at their deed and she read over it really carefully. She said she knew Rettew did a lot of the plans initially, and it basically states that as part of the homeowners, their responsibility of the basin was basically to keep it clear, cut the grass, and keep it pretty well clear of obstructions to those cement things where the water comes in and out. But she said obviously homeowners, they have no inkling of how the whole system works, or what pipes are under there, or how it’s done. She said she thought personally, that the pipe, this map that they got in the letters that were sent to them, is the first map that they’ve seen of the underground supposedly piping in that basin in the eight years she’s lived there, and she said they’ve asked repeatedly for many years, and their response was always that the Township couldn’t find the plans of that original layout of how the pipes were. She said they were pretty


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much there when Flyway did the excavating or the finishing that the developer never finished when they took the money out of escrow. She knew that the pipe from where it comes in because, she said back up in third phase, they’re in second phase, when they did third phase, they hit a spring, so they were having constant water come in there, no matter what, whether it was raining or not raining. So, they devised, or somebody devised the plan at where the water comes in, they put one of those french drain things in the cement and they ran a pipe from there out to the other end of the basin, which then joins a pipe that then will carry it out through the other, where the water’s to leave the basin. She said that was the only pipe that she knew from what they’ve watched Flyway do, when they finished grading and everything there, that that was the only pipe put in. The other areas, where they have marked of piping that was put in, they didn’t put that in. Ms. Carly said or they were led to believe that was already there. Ms. Ault agreed. Ms. Carly said the only new piping when the regrading was put in was to help for this drain. She said she just thought there has been a lot of miscommunication; she thought for some reason that this detention basin got caught up in she didn’t know what. She said they would like to meet with some people and sit down and talk about really what needs to be done. She said she just felt that she was told after a couple of years an animal got in the pipe. She said she couldn’t replace the pipe every couple of years because an animal underground is getting in it, and for a couple of years that was what she was told. But she said their piping system, the top and the bottom, has not been working for eight years. And she just felt that that was not right. Ms. Ault said the other thing was that part of, if they look at their deed, they have an easement on their property, all of them have easements on their properties. Her understanding, and she said maybe she was wrong, but an easement is to have access for whatever officials, government, whatever, Township, but that’s their responsibility for the basin. She said their responsibility is to keep it mowed and clear and they do that as best they can. But she said she could tell them their yard and their neighbor’s yard, the Brulets, who live beside them, they have not yet this summer, and it’s before these last three weeks of rain, they have not been able to cut the bottom of that basin yet this year, not at all. She said they go down there and they walk in it, they better bring boots, because it is like a really full sponge, and now, it’s even, they go up maybe halfway on the sides of the basin, and it’s still wet like a sponge. Ms. Carly said and if they are expecting homeowners to pay for that and be charged, she thought if a homeowner moves in and there is something other than the proposed stormwater drain, she thought that the homeowners have a right to know what is underneath and she thought they also have the right to have it in working order before they are asked to pay for something that has yet to work properly. Ms. Ault said they’ve been very patient; they waited three years until the Township finally, with them being persistent, stepped in and took the money out of escrow to get it finished – three years they lived there. So three years it was not working anyway that it was supposed to; it was not graded, nothing. Ms. Carly said her question was, why wasn’t someone out to inspect? She said isn’t that part of the developer’s plan to say that they will regrade it and have all of that working? She said they met with Mr. Mellott for many years. Ms. Ault said and now they have the Landis Crossing development going up of however many homes, she didn’t know, 40 maybe, and now theirs dumps into theirs, too, so they not only have their second phase dumping into it, they have the third phase dumping into in and they have Landis


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Crossings dumping into it. So, it gets pretty full, and yes, within the 24 hours the majority of all the water will go out, the majority. But that doesn’t alleviate all of the water that’s still sitting there, constantly day in and day out, whether it rains or not. She said they have water on the bottom, they have not, like she said, been able to mow yet this year. Mr. Martin addressed Ms. Carly and said when a plan is approved, the Township engineers follow the construction on the infrastructure, which includes storm sewer, sanitary sewer and the road right-of-way. The inspections for the detention basins are also done by the engineers, and as they were well aware, in this case the original contractor went broke, whatever happened, and left the site. He said he thought that area sat there for a period of time. Then they came back and they did the construction. The Township engineers were out and looked at it and that’s when they said that there was some escrow money to take care of the other problems that were there. He said he thought they had talked to them about the drainage problem that was coming from upstream, too. He said and that’s why ... Ms. Carly said her husband had talked to Mr. Mellott. A member of the audience talked at the same time as Ms. Carly and said ... because at that point there were no homes up above. Ms. Ault agreed and said yes, there were no homes up ... Mr. Martin said OK, but the problem was the drainage then. He asked if that was at the spring? Ms. Carly and Ms. Ault spoke at the same time and said that was when they hit the spring. Ms. Carly said but that was just an extra pipe that was added, the main pipe was already there. She said when they had met with Mr. Mellott ... Mr. Martin said by the main pipe, did she mean the one at the bottom of the basin? Ms. Carly said yes. Ms. Ault said the one at the far end, the far end of the basin. Ms. Carly said but it went from here to here. The only thing that they were told that was added, was the part that she indicated, and Ms. Ault said right, but Ms. Carly said that was not what their drawings show. Mr. Martin said OK, that was after the ... he said he didn’t remember the phases that they were talking about. Ms. Carly said it took them three years even to do this, she just felt that the Township has dumped this problem on them because it was dumped in the Township’s lap that it wasn’t done, somebody else’s lap. Ms. Ault said that wasn’t their fault, either, that somebody up and left. Ms. Carly said and whether when someone is building on a retention basin or a detention basin, whatever the correct term is, then maybe the Township needs to have extra funds for when some of these things happen, because she just felt that they got dumped on for something that they’ve been calling, and she just wasn’t worried, because she had lived in another section of Manheim Township and every time her neighbor did something, an inspector was out to check it. So when they first moved in and it wasn’t done she said no, they’ll be out to inspect it. Well, she’s seen the other side of it and for eight years they’ve been calling, oh an animal got in the pipe. She said she was sorry, but if they were putting in a piping system, it has to last more than just a couple of years, and then to say that they need to fix up what was never done properly, for whatever reason, it’s solid rock, she didn’t know if something got hit with the regrading, she didn’t know how the piping system was put in, and all the things, but she really thought that they need to take that responsibility when they approve someone to build on those kind of things, that until it is in working order and it has never been. Ms. Ault said and she knew when ... Ms. Carly said they have called ... Ms. Ault said Mr. Martin and President Ritter ... Ms. Carly said and they have heard from them, they have been in and she’s met many times ... Mr. Martin said they have


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been out and they’ve talked to them and worked with them on this, yes they have. Ms. Ault said when they came out that was June a year ago, and they waited and waited all summer for something and finally in the fall then she thought they had Kline’s come out and asked if that was right. Ms. Carly said that was still in the summer and they got something, but then that didn’t work for more than a couple of weeks. She said she called and she was acting in good faith not coming back to the meetings because they were still working with the Township, but when they couldn’t get the machine to see if they could unclog it, and then they couldn’t, and then she talked to them in the spring, they weren’t doing anything, and she just felt that they’ve been given the run around. Ms. Ault said she just didn’t think it was fair. Commissioner Bledsoe said the issue, they didn’t think what they were proposing doing to solve the problem was the issue ... Ms. Ault said she didn’t think what they were proposing was going to solve the problem. Commissioner Bledsoe said she didn’t think it would? She said she thought there was a hole, there was a breakage somewhere in the pipe. She said she knew when they had to come out and regrade, they had to bring a piece of machinery, because underneath, a few inches or however far down, there is rock. And, in order to grade it the way they had to grade it, in order for it to drain properly, right over (she asked if she could use something and said she didn’t bring hers) here, where she indicated, which is about where they were digging the hole, over a year ago, right over in the area where she indicated, is where they were using it to get the grade right, because they ran into rock, but in order to get the grade right, the way they had their surveying stuff all set up, and the way it had to be graded, they were using that to go through rock. She said she guessed her question was how do they know that possibly they didn’t go through that, because when they put the dye through, if they remembered, the dye came up there. Mr. Martin said it came out in several places. Ms. Ault said right. Mr. Martin said this proposal is to take a camera through there, and run something in to look at it to see ... Ms. Ault said but will it run, when they, were they going to bring it in through the back end? Mr. Martin said yes. Ms. Ault said then will it be able to go down both sides to see that everything is ... Mr. Martin said he didn’t know if it could do a 90 degree turn ... Ms. Carly said in her terminology she just asked that they unclog the main pipe. She said she guessed some of their concerns were what happens when they get down and they unclog it, but the pipe is still broken? She said there’s nothing to address that ... Mr. Martin said they wouldn’t know that until they get something in there to look at it. Ms. Carly said so they pay $200.00, so they get $200.00 each to pay and they get halfway through and it’s going to cost more, who is going to pay for that? She said she just felt that ... Ms. Ault said they all met, all four families, two of them are now on vacation, but they did talk before they left, after they got the Township’s letter, and they all came to the conclusion that they didn’t feel it was right to set a precedent for them to have to help pay $200.00 a family for the four families each to correct a problem that they have been fighting for eight years to get corrected to begin with, and it hasn’t been right for them even to have to live there eight years and have it work properly. She said so now the Township wants them to help pay for their problem that the Township took over the responsibility by taking the money out of escrow to get it done right, but it didn’t even work six months, before there were problems. Mr. Martin said they weren’t setting a precedent. Ms. Ault said they’ve been fighting and fighting. Mr. Martin said this is private property ... Ms. Ault said she didn’t feel they should have to pay. Mr. Martin


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said and the Township has in the past, in a lot of areas in the Township, has assessed the abutting property owners, or the property owners and they have shared in the cost. Ms. Carly said but this has never worked to begin with. Mr. Martin said that’s not setting a precedent. Ms. Ault said it has never worked to begin with. Ms. Carly said what happens when they get in and they find that there are broken pipes ... Mr. Martin said they won’t know until they get in there ... Ms. Carly said and who will pay for that, but there’s nothing ... Mr. Martin said they won’t know until they get in there. Ms. Carly said then this is just a preliminary, so then when they unclog it, then they have to pay again to have it fixed. Mr. Martin said it may require the whole thing being re-done. Ms. Carly said she understood that. Mr. Martin said they won’t know that until they get in there. Ms. Ault said she guessed the other part of that was that they, it was not that they had a problem paying the $200.00, the problem is if they pay the $200.00, which the Township wants all the money up front first from all of the homeowners before they even begin it, then if they run into, find out that it is a huge problem, much bigger than what they first anticipated, are they then going to be forced to pay half of whatever the cost is to get it fixed? That was one concern, but number two, and forthright, it is an easement which they all felt, if it was an easement on their properties, it’s for other people to have access to that area if it needs repaired, or looked at, or whatever, and she wasn’t sure that that was right that they would have to pay for anything to make it right, when it hasn’t been right to begin with. Mr. Martin said the Township when they take an easement over, for example, the road, then they take it over for maintenance. The Township has not taken over storm detention basins like this for maintenance. There are a lot of them in the Township that are the responsibility of the homeowners. The Township has never taken them over for maintenance. Ms. Carly and Ms. Ault both spoke at the same time. Ms. Carly asked whose responsibility it would be once the builders come through? Ms. Ault asked what was the Township’s definition of maintenance? Commissioner Bledsoe made a recommendation to close this off, that he appreciated their concerns, that they would pay $200.00 and if the problem was not fixed they would still be stuck with a system that doesn’t work. Ms. Ault said she didn’t think the problem ... Commissioner Bledsoe said he would like to see the Township make a commitment that, they’ve looked at the problem, they’re going to fix it, and he thought they needed to put some assurances that when they fix it, it will be fixed right. If not, they will have to do whatever it takes to make sure it is fixed correctly. He said he thought the Township needs to take on that responsibility. He said they’ve asked them to pay for part of the cost; they need to assure these ladies that the Township will fix the problem. If it’s going to take more money, they should cap it at $200.00, and that’s it. If it takes more money, the Township will take care of the problem. He said that was what he recommended that the Township do. Ms. Ault asked what the timeframe would be, only for the fact that they’ve been coming off and on for several years, trying to get this correct, and they keep getting put off and put off and put off or they’re told this, and she said she was not saying that what Commissioner Bledsoe said was true, she was saying as being frustrated on their part ... Ms. Carly asked who would say when it is fixed right ... Ms. Ault said and what timeframe are they looking at to have it complete? She said she knew when they work with construction people, they need to put an end date on it or they will just take forever. Commissioner Smith asked if he could ask a question, and he said he knew they were not going to like his question. He asked if


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they would accept an answer, after they have engineers review all of this, and they would spend all of this money to try to fix it, would they accept an answer that possibly there is no fix, that there are enough springs underneath there that it will be wet forever? Ms. Ault said she didn’t think that’s what the problem was. Commissioner Smith said no, he was just saying, would they accept that if that were the ultimate finding. Ms. Carly said then are they going to take the pipe out, so that it’s just a natural ... Commissioner Smith said to wait a minute ... Ms. Carly said she meant if it’s a natural wetland ... Commissioner Smith said have they heard of draining the swamp before? Ms. Carly said it is the underground pipe that is creating the swamp more, because of the hole that was dug and the underground pipe is where all of the ground water is being ... Ms. Ault said she did think ... Commissioner Smith said she was making an assumption, that he didn’t know ... Ms. Ault said because there was a very, very short window of time, three to six months that it did work beautifully for all four families, so she did feel ... Commissioner Smith said but what period of time, there were ten years of drought, too, but we’re long beyond that. Ms. Carly said this doesn’t have anything to do with the rainwater. They’ve been coming in through the drought and through the other things, and they’ve still had the groundwater there. She said she was not opposed if there are different places in the Township that have the wet lands and fields, but this was not designed that way. She said there is an underground pipe to take the spring water up and out. Ms. Ault said when there was a drought last summer, they still had water in the bottom of their basin the whole time. Ms. Carly said it’s not, the piping system has caused ... Commissioner Smith said that was his question. Ms. Carly said well, and if that’s what it comes to be and they’re going to designate something, they need to get to their backyards somehow, up over the hill, so if they designate that a wetland ... While Ms. Carly said these last comments, there was murmuring somewhere in the room, but there were no distinguishable words. Ms. Ault said they can only get to their backyards ... Ms. Carly said they cannot get up and over the hill to the other ... Ms. Ault was speaking at the same time as Ms. Carly but her words were indistinguishable. Commissioner Smith said he’s been there, he’s walked the whole area, he knew how far this area was from their backdoors, and it’s a lot farther than his whole property is times two. President Ritter said they should let them again look at it and see what they can come up with, and they will be in contact with them ... Ms. Carly said they would appreciate that. President Ritter said to determine what they can do or what they can’t do or what the possibilities are, and they may do some more investigation, and may have to wait until it dries. Commissioner Bledsoe asked if they can meet with these individuals to see what they’re talking about to make sure there’s an agreement, a consensus of what’s happening where the pipes are located; he said he thought that was important. President Ritter said they may have to do something to find out exactly where they are. Ms. Ault said the other basins that dump into theirs, they work beautifully, and some are larger and some are smaller, and they work beautifully, even the one they did in the first phase, it works beautifully. She said there just seems to be something that just has never been right with theirs to begin with, because she didn’t think ... President Ritter said to let them look at it again, and they will be in touch with them ... to see if they can ... find out ... Ms. Ault asked if they will hear from them before the next meeting. President Ritter said he didn’t ... Mr. Martin said they could go ahead and look at it and again, if they have data, they were


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out there, if they’ve got personal experiences of locations, when they were out there they did spot some areas, if they know those are the areas ... Ms. Ault said they didn’t have those things there at those areas any more because that was over a year ago. Mr. Martin said but they know where they are, if they’re within this area. He said the real way to find it is to dig it out, but they can’t get equipment in there when it’s wet, or it’s going to ruin everything. Ms. Carly said it’s not going to dry. Mr. Martin said that was what he was saying. Ms. Carly said as long as that underground pipe is there, it has never dried. Mr. Martin said Commissioner Smith’s comment that if there’s a spring under there ... Ms. Carly said the spring isn’t under their yard, it’s down a ways ... Mr. Martin said at one point it was dry when they were out there, they walked in there and as a matter of fact, they looked at it ... Ms. Carly said it’s dry until they get to the hole. She said they could come down now to the hole ... Mr. Martin said OK, but it’s, they’ve got to understand that they can get equipment in there, but if they want to look for the hole, they have to dig it out. Ms. Ault said she didn’t think whatever equipment they do they will really hurt anything in the bottom ... Ms. Carly said there’s nothing they can do ... Mr. Martin said they didn’t want to hurt the equipment ... President Ritter said ... get the equipment stuck ... Mr. Martin said it’s just more than ... Ms. Carly said they could dig a hole, they already have a two-foot hole there in the marsh, and if they could meet to go over that they’d appreciate that. Mr. Martin said yes, they’d be in touch with them before that, within the next two weeks. Ms. Carly thanked the Board. Lew Kuhn of Buch Avenue said he knew exactly what she was saying, because he had the same problem. He said time and time again ... Mr. Martin asked Mr. Kuhn his address again. Mr. Kuhn said he lives at 170 Buch Avenue. There is a retention pond behind his property. It seems like there’s a trend here, these people here, there are four other couples that he’s talked to that the Township has allowed and approved various retention ponds throughout this Manheim Township and for some reason, he didn’t know how many of them don’t work, but the four people he’s talked to at separate locations – they don’t work. He asked if there was anything that they as the Commissioners can say and do as far as ... President Ritter asked him to please wait a minute because they have two conversations going on. Mr. Kuhn asked again if there was anything that they as Commissioners could do as far as to stop this as far as if it, was it the engineering was not looking at the situation as far as de-watering the property, making sure that the retention pond works, or detention pond, or whatever they want to call it, because it seems like everybody’s complaining about the same thing. He said these things are not working. Commissioner Simpson addressed Mr. Molchany and said weren’t they in this particular case gauging discussions with the builder? Several people spoke at the same time and no specific words were distinguishable. Commissioner Simpson said they are anticipating resolving, or requiring the builder to resolve Mr. Kuhn’s problems. Commissioner Smith said the other question is Mr. Kuhn’s works right now, from what he understood. He said even in the pictures he showed them it works. Commissioner Simpson said the issue had to do with the wildflowers and the vegetation. Mr. Kuhn said his biggest question, the weeds are four-foot tall now. He said he received the letter that was given to Mr. Collins and he had a deadline, which he said they would see what happens with that because he had less than a week. He said if it’s the same thing as last year and the year before,


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nothing will get done. He said there was not a single piece of equipment up there doing anything. He addressed Commissioner Simpson and said he understood she was up there and looked at the situation and he thanked her for that. He said what he was getting at was they basically, it was brought to his attention by Mr. Mellott that why didn’t he police this or pursue this as far as making plans. He said he didn’t think he should have to say there is a problem with it as far as complaining to the developer, let alone his neighbors. It’s the developer’s fault; it was probably the developer’s fault back there behind him. He said they’ve allowed them to do this. He said as far as the Township’s weed ordinance, he asked how much further high they have to be. He said they are already at four feet. Mr. Martin answered it is twelve inches. Mr. Kuhn said he understood that but it’s at four or five feet right now. Mr. Martin said they would send somebody out to ... Mr. Kuhn said they mentioned ... Commissioner Simpson said what happens, they were waiting to hear from Mr. Collins ... Mr. Molchany said they were waiting for Mr. Collins, he knew they sent out the letter to the property owners about future plant materials ... response back from them because after a certain period of time his commitment to the property is ... property owners’ responsibility. President Ritter said he thought it was October. Commissioner Downing said something that was inaudible. Commissioner Simpson said but not these folks. It’s the property owners ... Several people spoke at the same time and nothing was distinguishable. Mr. Molchany said that was correct. Mr. Kuhn asked why it has to wait until October? He asked if that was how long this will drag out? President Ritter said his responsibility ends in October, and asked if that was right; he said his, the builder’s. Mr. Martin agreed. President Ritter asked with the homeowners? Mr. Molchany said that was correct. Mr. Martin said then the homeowner picks up the responsibility of maintenance on the property. Mr. Kuhn asked if that was right. Commissioner Smith said yes. Mr. Kuhn said this developer comes in and digs up a 250’ retention pond and then turns around and says yes, there are wildflowers in there and yes, it is supposed to hold the water and all that, but according to the documents that he had, PA, which is the State Code, he said they mentioned last meeting about regulations, he said he understood it was supposed to be a 4 to 1 ratio. He said according to Mr. Mellott, it is; he showed him on the drawings. He said but it’s not doing what it says according to the drawing. The water comes in and goes right out, and from there it goes down to a future storm sewer which is in the process right now at Buch Avenue, then it goes down from there to Weaver. He said they will basically flood out at the very end of that pipe, where it will wind up as more of a problem. He said then he will have more meetings about how somebody’s getting flooded out. President Ritter said he thought Mr. Kuhn’s biggest complaint was the weeds. Mr. Kuhn said the biggest one is the weeds, and he’s still getting water on his property. He said nobody seems to believe him as far as that, but he’s got pictures, he’s shown everybody pictures. He said he was told that the pictures in the Township office, that they don’t prove anything, they can’t see anything. He said when it starts raining, have somebody come out there and look at it. He said they couldn’t miss the water, standing in the back yard, they can’t miss the water coming down the hill. He asked if there was anything they could do for the future, that the next time that a retention pond basin/detention basin gets put in, for Township to get more involved in seeing this, that this doesn’t happen again. Mr. Martin said the Township, whenever they receive the plans, as he heard tonight, there were plans that were submitted, they


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have to address the stormwater detention basin, or the stormwater problems, and he asked Mr. Molchany what the Township’s percentage of retention was, 50%? Mr. Molchany said they must reduce the peak flow of the ... percent. So based on that, if they were reducing that, where the water leaves the property, which is a study area, actually less water would be flowing off the property, based on ... Mr. Martin said that’s the detention basin, and that’s a requirement that the Township has been following ever since they started the developments in the Township. He said the Township Engineer looks at that ... Mr. Kuhn said and his photos show ... Mr. Martin said the Township Engineers do inspect that to make sure that the bowl of the detention basin can handle that type of rain runoff. Mr. Kuhn said the Pennsylvania Code basically states that it is supposed to hold the water possibly, there are clauses in there, hold the water for four to seven days, and then gradually flow it out. If anything, if it doesn’t stay in there within four days, at least it gradually holds the water and then gradually flows it out. It could do within 24 hours, but that water as fast as it goes in, is in less than five minutes it’s gone, and that’s flash flood downhill. Mr. Kuhn said but besides the point, what he was getting at here was if they were going to constantly flood out people downhill, they were allowing these developers to build whatever they want. Mr. Martin said no, they were building according to plan specifications. He said if it isn’t holding it for four or five days ... Mr. Kuhn said well no, it doesn’t hold it for four or five days but the Code says that it could hold it up to four to seven days. Mr. Martin said he didn’t know that detail, it may say that but the room in the area that they’ve got, especially of him, when they have a basin that large, it would be so big that they wouldn’t even build anything up there. Mr. Kuhn said it’s only 40 ... Mr. Martin said ... and the specifications that they have now require that. He said there are other basins in the Township that do work. Mr. Kuhn said that’s a 250-foot basin. All that water that was dumped on, that his photos show, basically got 2-1/2 inches of water in about a half hour to an hour. Mr. Martin said ... fast. Mr. Kuhn said at a rapid rate, that’s a flash flood, he understood that, he understood that there is a five-year flood program, what that’s based on. He said but that water never reached the very back of the basin so it could gradually flow back; as soon as it came in it was right out. He said and then they mentioned about the State regulations that say that now it has to have wildflowers and all that. President Ritter said it doesn’t say that, that was a request from the homeowners. Mr. Molchany said ... developer. President Ritter said the developer, that they wanted wildflowers so that they didn’t have to mow it, instead of grass there, and that can be a request. He said the developer did plant the wildflowers, and then somebody mowed it. There was laughter. President Ritter said wildflowers are only supposed to be mowed at the end of the summer so that the seed goes for the next year. Commissioner Simpson said she didn’t know if somebody’s mowed ... Mr. Kuhn said nobody’s mowed that. Someone from the audience spoke but it was inaudible. Mr. Kuhn said again nobody’s mowed that. President Ritter said they mowed part of it. Commissioner Simpson said well, no, not in the basin. Mr. Kuhn said they mowed from the peak down. Commissioner Simpson said not in the basin. Mr. Kuhn said because that was actually grass, nothing ever grew, right there from the peak down into the retention basin had the weeds. Commissioner Simpson said it is just weeds and things. A member of the audience said ... trees ... Mr. Kuhn said it’s also trees now. There were several people talking and their words were indistinguishable. Commissioner Smith said as he understood it,


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the developer was, together with a letter they saw, was discussing with the homeowners whether they want to continue with the wildflowers or go to a ... He said they have to make that decision full well knowing that it’s their responsibility come October ... to continue to maintain that area. He said so that’s where they are right now and he asked Mr. Kuhn if he understood. Mr. Kuhn said what, if it’s just weeds, they’re going to let that grow? Commissioner Smith said that’s the homeowners’ responsibility; they have to cut it according to regulation if it’s just weeds. Mr. Martin said if it becomes weeds, then it will be the Township’s responsibility to tell them to mow it; there is a height restriction. Mr. Kuhn asked how high ... Commissioner Smith said but if it’s wildflowers, it’s a different situation. There were a few other comments made, but they were inaudible. Mr. Kuhn said he understood that by this they would give them a deadline, but they’ve given him four deadlines, maybe not the Commissioners, but the Township itself has given him four deadlines, or better, to get this resolved ... property so he can get the tire tracks off, do something about the weeds, and time and time he has to call Mr. Mellott or bother Mr. Molchany or bother Ms. Greaves. He said he’s not getting any results as far as answers other than excuses. Mr. Martin said he wasn’t aware of tire tracks. He asked if they were driving over his property? Mr. Kuhn said they had bulldozers while they were digging out the retention pond. He said most of that has been covered over with dirt, but his back yard wasn’t as lumpy as it is now. He said they basically just threw dirt back there, took a track hoe and drove around on it, and then planted seed and said it was done. He said and then Mr. Mellott came up there and he had a sheet, a paper, he didn’t know if he was on a second page or first page, of stipulations that needed to be taken care of. He said he clearly saw that what was done was not done right, as far as blending the property. In this letter, he said he had one question, and that was they mentioned about dirt piles; there are two dirt piles on the vacant lot, and there is a dirt pile on his property. That dirt pile that is on his property was given to him basically so he could fix up the front of his place; he has chuck holes here and there around the yard that he was going to fix that with. He said he wasn’t going to fix a water problem, he was going to fix the lumps in his yard and all that. He said but the two dirt piles basically are diverting the water, and he was wondering if that was what they had written, what was written as far as saying that’s what needs to be removed, because if it’s his dirt pile, he’d like to know. He said he’s been moving it slowly out of there. Mr. Martin said he wasn’t aware of that dirt pile. Mr. Molchany said ... reference ... Mr. Martin said on his property? Mr. Molchany said something that was inaudible. Mr. Kuhn said OK. Mr. Molchany said the letters to the property owner of that lower property ... Mr. Kuhn said so when is someone going to come up and look at the weeds, tomorrow, Friday? Mr. Martin said he would put a request in and have them up in a couple of days. Mr. Kuhn said OK, was he supposed to wait until October to see if anything is going to be resolved? Mr. Martin said right now, since he’s been asked to do that, yes, they need to wait until they find out what he’s going to do, when he talks to the property owners up there. Commissioner Downing said October 1st is his drop dead date. Mr. Kuhn said October 1st. Mr. Kuhn thanked the Board. President Ritter asked if there were any other questions. George Duncan of 2260 Basset Drive said he just wanted to acknowledge and thank the Board for the Watch Children signs that have been placed on Bassett Drive. He said they do appreciate the


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action that the Commissioners are taking. He addressed Commissioner Simpson and said he had a question for her, that she spoke to his wife he guessed today, and, yesterday, OK, and she had mentioned about, she was talking to him and said something about when the main entrances on Fruitville Pike and Lititz Pike are completed, there will be a main entrance from Lititz Pike back to that particular area back there? Commissioner Simpson said there will be a connection from the Overlook Activities Center, and asked if that was where it was ... Mr. Martin said there will be a connection that would ... but there’s not, the entrance on the Lititz Pike is not to be a main entrance. It’s just an entrance primarily to get to the Golf Course. He said they were discouraging cars from driving through from Fruitville Pike to Lititz Pike, Lititz Pike to Fruitville Pike and from Fruitville Pike to Basset and go through there. The main intent is that once they get in the park, it’s going to be hard to drive through to three different directions. Mr. Duncan said OK, but ... Commissioner Bledsoe said ... they’ve talked about, they haven’t made any final decisions, but that potentially could be closed off just for traffic for the Golf Course ... they wouldn’t be able to come off the Lititz Pike and drive all the way through. He said that was under consideration as they complete the rest of the property. He said that’s not a very conducive area to drive through only because of the Golf Course parking, golf carts, traffic. Potentially that may be closed off longer term to through traffic from Lititz Pike; they haven’t decided that final yet but that’s always something under consideration. Commissioner Smith said unofficially, he knew they moved the speed counters as a result of he thought Mr. Kipphorn’s comments, and the second set of numbers from the other place, unofficially, he saw them this morning and the numbers jumped quite a bit over what they were over in front of his house. Mr. Duncan said well, yes, there was no activity that whole period. Commissioner Smith said yes. Mr. Duncan said back in that field back there. Commissioner Smith said except for lacrosse, they had some ... Mr. Duncan said no, he didn’t think there was even any of that back there. He said today was bad, soccer moms screaming up and down the road again. Commission Smith said he may be speaking out of turn, but probably the decision they were going to make would probably be not according to the traffic calming Ordinance, it’s probably going to be just by Commissioners, a decision of what they want to do there. Mr. Duncan said that was correct from what he’s heard, yes. Commissioner Smith said OK. Commissioner Simpson said they are working on a date to meet with these folks, probably the third week of August, the week of the 23rd. Mr. Duncan said OK. Commissioner Smith said whatever they decide, they will want Mr. Duncan’s concurrence on what do, and he asked OK? Commissioner Simpson said they were trying to think a little creatively about how they can best meet the needs of the residents of Basset Drive. Mr. Duncan said OK. Commissioner Simpson said as well as provide access to the park for residents. Mr. Duncan said OK, and they are also going to listen to their input? Commissioner Smith and Commissioner Simpson answered yes. Commissioner Smith said they won’t do it unless they approve whatever they do. Mr. Duncan said OK. Dick Kipphorn of 2278 Basset Drive said Commissioner Smith gave him permission to come forward and said Mr. Molchany did return his call today to give him the dates and he thanked him for that. He said he would also say that the dates 23, 24, 25, 26 that he gave of August, any of those days they will be available, but please try to tell them as soon as possible because they have four other families to deal with, and this meeting,


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was it going to be in the evening, was it going to be here, etc? He said that would be very important, because some of these people are going on vacation or coming back. Commissioner Simpson said he should know because he sent the e-mail out to all of them. Mr. Molchany said he should know as soon as everybody responds and he’ll send out a reminder to everybody ... Commissioner Simpson said that Commissioner Smith responded, she responded. Commissioner Smith said he’s had a problem ... Mr. Kipphorn said this again looks like they will be heading in the direction of what he said to all of them in a letter, that he addressed specifically to President Ritter, namely they want to have a functioning committee, and they want to have the Commissioners to hear some of the historical on this, and he mentioned Mr. Martin knows this, etc., but there’s a long history of it and it can be resolved with common sense and some good understanding of what’s going on. He said last week ... Commissioner Smith said he asked a question last week, how many sets, and he asked Commissioner Simpson how many sets of those things could they have, he guessed nine. Commissioner Simpson said eight, nine. Commissioner Smith said nine, they have nine of those sets, and he had no idea ... Mr. Kipphorn said sure, well their thought again was that if they can meet and discuss it and the Commissioners will accept their input, then act on what they feel is very, very important. The test that was taken last week was rather facetious, because there was no activity in that park, absolutely. Commissioner Smith said he knew, he drove over there three times and he never saw a car all the time he was there. Mr. Kipphorn said Sunday he saw some of our Commissioners he thought driving around and they waved, but the test that was taken last May he thought was the main subject test that they would like to stay with, and if they can’t authenticate something from that, in the way of whatever it is the Commissioners can do for them to slow down the traffic, then he thought most of the residents, and he could speak for them because they talk about it a lot, would say take another test. He said when they know and the Commissioners know that that park is going to be busy, because today the traffic was very heavy and it was not slow at times, not slow at all. Mr. Duncan said basically what they had today was try-outs, so they didn’t even have mothers and fathers that were going to watch their children play, they had mothers and fathers that were just running down that street as fast as possible, dropping off their kids, screaming on out of there. An hour later after the try-outs, they were screaming back in there, picking up their kids and screaming back out. He said as far as the issue of the count goes, they had pretty much discussed this two meetings ago, and Mr. Martin said they would use the information from the old study that was done, but yet they are still fixated on the new one, which shows them nothing. He asked if they’ve seen ... Commissioner Simpson said she didn’t think that was true; they are not fixated just ... Mr. Duncan asked if they’ve seen the old study, though? Commissioner Simpson answered no. Mr. Duncan asked Commissioner Downing if he had seen the old study, then said OK, perhaps maybe if they took a look at that they’d get a little bit more realistic ... Commissioner Downing said he’d like to wait until the soccer season begins, which he understood was in September, and asked if that was correct. Mr. Kipphorn said he thought somebody in the Township would know when that’s going to occur. Commissioner Simpson and Commissioner Downing were talking at the same time, and only Mr. Kipphorn’s comments were distinguishable. Mr. Duncan said he’s been telling them. Commissioner Smith said he would say right then that he thought they have the test, the


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one he talked about, the one they just took, he thought they were probably beyond the test stage and they will do something. Mr. Kipphorn said all right, and they appreciate that. Mr. Duncan said OK, thank you. Mr. Kipphorn said even in the interim ... Commissioner Smith said then they might do a post-test after they do it, to see if they slowed it down ... Mr. Duncan said that would be great, that would be great to have a follow-up. Mr. Kipphorn said even in the interim if the indicator that was used in May, that was placed on the street, on the policeman’s car who was in the driveway of his next-door neighbor, flashing as the cars came down, showing the exact speed that people were utilizing, and he was sitting in his driveway and he talked to the police officer several times, and it became a Groucho Marx show. They could see the people coming around and they didn’t see the meter, and all of a sudden, when they saw it, they’d feel it, they’d hit the brake, and some would say 26, some would say 35, that’s even a good barometer as far as they’re concerned to utilize now until they finish the study. He said whenever they put it in, someone in the Township has to know when that park is utilized by large numbers of soccer players or whatever it is, so ... program. Commissioner Downing and Mr. Duncan made comments that were inaudible. Mr. Kipphorn said ... an undercover police officer, he was very, very friendly about the whole thing, but he had a 20-year old grandson with him. He said they came around Delp Road, came down the street, and he said, “Hey, Pop, there’s a policeman sitting there at the stop sign.” There was a nice unmarked car, but his whole arm was visible. He said he chatted with the officer and said welcome to the club here, and he said yes, it was interesting here. Commissioner Downing asked how was the truck traffic lately? Mr. Kipphorn said they haven’t seen any for quite some time. They did see a few last week ... calm down ... Mr. Duncan said there was one today, but he was very ... Mr. Kipphorn said he wasn’t there today, so Mr. Duncan would have to speak to that. Mr. Duncan said one today, but when he saw Mr. Duncan’s video camera he wouldn’t go over three. Commissioner Smith said he talked to Mr. Neff, Director of Public Works, and he talked to the contractor, so hopefully that’s that. Mr. Duncan said OK. He said he would just reiterate what Mr. Kipphorn was saying, they have that machine that says their machine is “X” and according to Lt. Wagner education is the key, so maybe that is part of it. He said maybe they need to have that machine out there more often just to educate the people that they are going as fast as they are going. President Ritter said let’s get this moving ... hear from everybody and set this meeting up ... Commissioner Simpson said they’d see him the week of the 23rd. Mr. Duncan thanked the Board. Other comments were made that were inaudible. President Ritter said they had to hear back from some more people. Mr. Molchany said ... it could be anywhere, as long as they have ... a room that’s available. President Ritter said the availability of the people is the most important. Commissioner Simpson made an inaudible comment. Mr. Duncan said actually when they find out the date they will circulate another letter to their neighbors basically saying if they have something to say, they better show up, because basically everybody is going to be making decisions that are going to affect all of them, so they are going to understand ... Someone made an inaudible comment. Mr. Duncan said oh, absolutely, yes, they will try to physically not just send a letter, but physically hand-deliver it to all the neighbors and actually physically talk to them. He said because they feel it’s important for everybody to be involved, too. They don’t want to go slapping up a speed bump in front of somebody’s house and they have no idea what’s going on,


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so they will make sure that if that happens, it’s pretty much their fault for not participating. He again thanked the Board. Commissioner Downing thanked him. President Ritter asked if there were any other questions. There were none. Adjournment: There being no further business before the Commissioners, Commissioner Smith moved, and Mr. Bledsoe seconded that the meeting adjourn at 9:20 p.m., with all in favor. Respectfully submitted, James M. Martin Manager-Secretary

minutes of the regular meeting of the - Manheim Township

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Transcript of minutes of the regular meeting of the - Manheim Township