I TRIAL BI MILIWlr COORr FOR TliE TRIAL OF WAR CRIMDAid

of

*ll'!!W'· 5th JUD· 1'lt6

•

I

ot a

!T!,'!TA!l! COUW R>R THB TJUAL OP !AR CRI.Mllf.AIB

!!P!FAle 5th JUIB.191t§

PDJIJaff a

Lieutenant G«Ltra1 O• 1"'_. ,0 Corpe Dldriot. Dated 16th Jlq, 1946. MOL

Lleutenant-oolanel "· LIVm:m!, Boy&1. Arrq Meclioal Oarpa.

XBMBJl!S ~

Jlajcr M. 0. HASl'IlfGS

J.fa.1or H. P. RAWXDS

Lieutenant B. GUJilACJa

JPOOB .AlifOOilB a

The Devmllhire RegSllMlt.

The Green HO'Al"d8.

Polish l'oroee.

R. G. DOW, Baquire, B&ni.~t--Law.

1

....

•

at a

!IILITARI cougr FUR THB TRIAL OF WAR CR.IMJJW:.S

an

upon the t.rial. ot

P.1F3IJm1

Lieotmant GmjNJ. O~er 30 Carpa Dlatriot. Dated 16th J.fq, 1946. BAOll.

Lieutmant-oolane.1 P. LIV'ESft, Royal Arrq Xe41oal Ccrpa.

Kii1mBRS s

Majer M. C. HA.sl'IlfGS

lfa,jor H. P. BAWXDS

Lieutenant B. GLO\'fACKI

JUlX!B AIJYOOilB a

The Devonabire Regiment.

The Green Howazda.

Polish Foroee.

R. G. DOW, Eaquire, Bani.at.-at-Lmr.

--ooOoo--

PIP'l'KllfTH DAI

1

,.

PIFTKWTH DAY. !,!IDl~Y I 5t h JUNE . 1946 .

( At 0915 }-.ours t he Cour t r C'.aaacr.1l>los pursuant t o adjournmoot, the 3a!l\O President, !~embers and J udge Advocate being preamt.)

(Tho Accusel tlrc agaj.n brou...;ht bof'or c the Conrt. )

( Dr. Will is not preaent Md tho defence of the accuae<l Ohl i 3 undertaken by Dr. Drooltler.)

TIIB ACOUSW G. TYFOLt again to.kes his place at the w1 tneaa stand and is f\lrther oroaa-eammined by DR. VOLlmIDiirG as followas-

Q Dr. Tyrolt, do you lmow wbetner Dr. Korbel received 8J'\Y special gratuity tor his work in the children's home at Wolfaburg or at 'l'heuen ? A. No, Dr. Piech, as managine director, gave him the order to take over the ohil4rSl' a home, and he did not get azq special grant for this .

Q You 11&1.d in hi• capacity aa managing clireotora do you not mean in hi• oapaoi ty as managing doctor ? A. Ye t", I mean the -.orlca dootor.

Q Were the premises a t the Schaohtweg uoed f or t he children only tor t he time being, and bad &l\Y special nn buildings been planned for them ? A. There -.a being planned a complete tranatc- of all the oamp in whioh foreign work.-s 11nd to the lageraburg, whi ch waa about three ldlometrea a-., and whioh was just going t o b e reat\Y.

Q Wb\r waa thie n• building not undertaken? A. Because the end of thewar oame.

Q Have you not. heard about any special plans about t he ohildren' e bome at the Sch&ohtweg ? A. I think that Dr. Korbel wanted to transter the oamp near to lleudeok, but I do not know aJlY details ahout thia. These were agreements betwee.11 him and t he works building d-i>artment.

Q I am going to produce to you n002e drawi ngs. (handed) . Have you ever seen them betore ? A. Yes, :t: have seen theao drawings; I saw them in the offloe of the works building arobiteot, Otto.

THI JUOOB AD'IOCATEs When ? a. It llll.8t have been in the year 19,.3·

DR. VOTJrnRDillG: Is t here a date on these drawings ? A. Yes, at the bottom th•e is the date, 8 th February, 191+1..

Q Oould this date be oarreot ? A. Yes.

Q Coul d yoo give a:ey explanation with regard to this drawing ? A. Yes , 1 t oan be aeen from this blue print that two buta, each containing l.00 children, ahould be eatablllhed in tbia plan, and that tor these huts which were to be bull t by modern standard.CJ, German children' a clinics were taken as an eumple because besides having a kl~hen, ablutions, ironing I'OOll8 and isolated rooms, there are romna tor the pr9P81'&tion of delivery and a separate nw.terni \1 hut was planned. Now I remember t hi s plan better. Four huta were planned in t he inrnediate vioini ty ot t :1e Baat~rn workers oa119; two each t or the aooomi o&ation of the chlldreo, one f or the materni ty hom and one to aoconmodate nuraing s taff, as well as the visiting room and pla_y roomftor the ohil4ren. That had been planned at the time; that ia OOZTect.

Q Will you l ook at t he s econd draTring '? A. Thia second blue print I do not kT'ow and I haTe never sef:n 1 t .

QR. VO.i.Kb'&>ll.G: J!ay I i)ut i n tho f irst pl.111 a s M exhibit.

TUE JUOOE ADVOCATE: Tho.t will b o cxhibi t 48.

2

.... Ttn~ J UOO.E AIJV'OOATE : Uo ~u know what t he fi(lurcs at the bottom, under thC' plnn ,

represent ? A. 1'ha t woulcl be t he 'aoale.

Q What does it represent, metres or what ? The numb ers refer to centimetres with regard to the number written a l10Te the plan. Ab ove 2.50 t here i s a part which ie 250 centimetres ; that is two and a halt metres; at the tide there ie 1,000 centimetres, 10 111etres and the tor>, t he nwnber 5, 000, tha.t in th~ whole length, 5000 mentimetres, 50 metres.

DR. VO~G: Can you reoogni s e the signatures ot Prof'essor Porsohe, Dr. Piech and Dl' . La.f'terentz ? A. Yes.

Q Oan you reoogniae this which represents the photo C"7''0t the ai@'l&turea ? (handed) A. Yes, I do recor.nise them.

Q Can you tell the court from what document thia represents the photo copy ? A. That is the pronaion, signed by the main work• man&g•ent, t hat they are allowed to spend 12 million marks on acoomMO<.lation, i nventory and artiolea of equipment for the huts.

Q Vlhat was to be built according to this order ? A. On this list it ~· 25 huts at the oamp Sandart.

Q Vlhat was to be built there ? A. The ,Jand oamp, juat like the camp I.agerburg was bei ng built and the buil<ling wes not f'inis)\ed because the war ended.

Q Was 1 t a foreign workers camp? A. Yes, 1 t was planned as a cmmp f'or f oreign • worker•. Ten huta are approv&d tor the Lagerburg cnmp, 10 huts tor Narak, tiTe huts in the hospital and four maternity home huts.

Q You think that this may refer to the huts wbioh are shown on the blue print ? A. ~dently, because the date ot the plan i• February l94lt.. Thon there is a hut tor t he purpose of using aa an inn, three huta for unmarried peopl e and two huts for married couples without ohildren. The estirnatro coat of these plans are 12 llil.lion raarke, signed on 8th Maroh 191+4 by the three mani.ging direotora.

(Plan dated 8 t h i.~ebruary, 194J+, i s l111U"ked exhibit J.B, signed by the President and attached to the prooeedings)

(Authority tor the sxpendi ture ot 12 mil 1.ion Reichamar1'.& is marked exhi.bi'\ 49, •iS!led by t he Preaident and attached

to the prooeeclings)

Q Was there a large scale air attack on Woltt1burg on ~th April 191t4 ? A. Yea.

Q Were the plane which had been made to _.eot the nn ohildren' a horpe in the vio!.ni ty ot the oailp smashed by this attack ? A. Yea, I remember nO'tf that wl\f these tour huts were not erected wae beoauae the whole ot Woltsburg, especially the hutted camps, mre under great dnnger from air raida. The children were thC!l'l to be taken to Burgneubau ('?) .

Q You said that same of the children at the children's home at the Schaohtweg had auttered from Scabies ? A. What I meant to say was boils.

Q Do you mean to say then that this was the akin disease that you could not judge from a medical point ot viaw ? A. I cannot pass an:y jlJdsnent on this becau3e I did not actually aee the skin die"'4Be as the children were bandaged up. I only aslced whether 1 t was a contagious disease and Sister Kat he said it was. r

Q "td you see any children wt thout bandages who had wotmds ? A. Are you ret'erring to the sick children ?

Q Children 't'fbose wo·md8 were not handaged ? A. No, I have stat ed before and eq;>haeioe.i the fact th" 'ti I did not see t h.at.

Q Do you know the name of t he Kreis doctor tor Wolfsburg ? A. Yes, I know him by his penal reoords.

' ~---/-'

_,

Q What i s his name ? A. Dr. Francke .

Q Do you know whether Dr. Francke had ever been to the ohilicJren' s hane at t he Sohaohtweg 'I A. Not from anything I Cound out IJ\YGOlf.

Tim J\®E ADVOOlTE: What do you mean b,y kno\'iing him by hie penal reoard ? A. In tho penal records t here is o. stat ement by' Dr. Francl:e aaying that he was the Kreiaarzt 1

DR. VOLKERDlltG: Are you ref'.-ring t o the dooumen ta i n t his case ? A. Y cs.

Q l>id Sister l.'orparetta ever tel l you wbat was t here i n t he ~ ot medicines at ~he Sobaohtweg ? ~. Yes , she must have named ma these medicines but it did not mean an.y thing to me because I am a l~, but I oan remcmbor, and I remember this very well, t hat suoh medioal oupplies and e~rengthing extracts were availnble to childrP.n that were no longer available to the homes run by NPV, and she asked wh_.e we had reoei Ted this from.

Q Wae Sist er J!arr aretta in a poai tion to give y ou an exr>lanat i 0n nbout t he cause of death ot children '/ A. .No, I cannot rez.-itmbcr this •

. Q Did s he not anoe te11 you that 8he waa oompletely pusaled abou~ tbia beoauu

all poaa:t.ble methtda were being ellllpioye4 and th~ bod no resul tT A. That -.y be ao.

Q You do not remember any dataila, 4o you t A. I did no t daouaa these meclio*-1 detatls with 89..ste-r ~targM"etta but talked raore about th3 employmcmt of d.ootore and nuraea.

\

Q Do you k now an.ything about other dootora v1•1 tin.'! the home at Tuehen 8\Joh aa Dr. Humes from Hamburg and Dr. Rif'elmaoher trom Wolf"aburg '/ A. I do know this in the oaBe ot Dr. Ritelmaoher but not in the oase of ))i·. H'lrnleo.

Q I wil 1 now a sk some question roan behalf ot my client Kuhl roann. Wh.,y" was JOahJMnn appointed ohief oamp comandant '/ A. KubllllfUlJl wilt up the Baatern workers camp and by WtfTOf thankil)g him tor bin iruooess he waa appointed ~ chief' oamp OOlllD8J1..daJit.

Q What was your personal attitude t ow¥ds Kuhl.Jiamm ? A. One could oo-opero.te with Kuhlmann, one could be sure t hat he ·obeyed order• and that he toolc up 8:n:f auegeaUons, and that he alwa,ya uaed hi• own init iative in car1-ying out these taslts. It wu not n POessary to tell him everything; he td.maelf startod m&r\Y renovat i ons whi oh were v«cy useful.

Q Do you know roughly when he waa appoi nted ohief oamp ooomandant ? A. Yea , at the end of' the period ot' r"90netruotion of the Eastern vrorkera oamp, at the tille when I bad withdrawn from my position agair. t o t hat ot per.aonnel chief .

Q At what time was t his approximately ? A. ~'be end of May o1' t he begi m ing ot JW>e 1943.•

Q What were hi~ duties as ohief oamp. oonaa.ndant ? A. Ke was entlluat ed to aee that t here was good order, oloe.nliness e.nd quietness in all acoom odatian.

Q T)id he have an;y speoia.1 duties with regard to the children' a home ? A. After this tirDt o ildren' • hcile, whioh 'li9.S used for t he purposes of t he ,.. 110rker a only, had become the Kreis ohildren' • ha,e, in my opinion he1bad nothing t o do with t he ~hildren' a homo after that date.

Q Vo you know whether i t "8.B bis job to provide oot fins for t he c hildren' o home ? A. I never heard a.nyt hL"lg aboat thi s.

r

Q You do not understand ny q..testion properly. You knew tho spheros of duty whidl. wero ~ttributcd to Kuhlmann. Do y0u lmow i f it was his j ob to aee that t he ohildron's hane waa provided wl t h toffi na ! A • . 'o, I am not qui t e wrc about all those details but I do lmow that if anyboc\v died i n the Km' town t hen the bUX"ial. was undertaken by tho mmiopil undertakers. Thero muat have been sane contract nade between the works and t ho municipal undertakers. '.lbc peramol depo.rtnent i n tho name of tho man~ direato r usually ordered a wreath and sent i t on to t ho burial.

Q You said that XuhJmann had boon arrested beoauae of Praud, embezzlement ? A. \fhen did I s~ t his.

Q In your wri t tcn statement vhi oh you made about nine months ago ? A. 1hat 1a suppoaed to nean suspected of c:mbow ement .

Q Do you mea to say by that t ho.t you have no proof yourself' that this e.1spi oion was j uaUtied? A. I wu not i.1 oharge of thia investigati on and I have no proof.

Ol'Oaa-o!!aj.qed by DR BHO@.E.~

Q Dr. 1'yrolt, I haw sane ques t i ons whi oh could moat oaai]\y be annercd trcm the organisation plans. (E:dlibi t 9 handecl) • I 1111 J"9ferring to the organisation which i s here oontained in four parts A. Yes.

Q Have you not pap one ot exhibit 9 ? A. Yea.

'l ihat goea up untU about themiMle ot 14aroh 19'..', then you have organisation plan, page 2, wbioh lute until Deoeaber 1~, and then p96e throe ot ubibit 9 which goes on until about the middle ot 19'tlt. and then theomoem pl.Ill, pa,ge 4. Havoyou got all t '1eae oopiea ? A. Yea.

Q First ot all I shall put nr:1 queationa u detenoe oouuel tor clireotor u.a,r. Be ia aoouaed beoauae he hel4 the position of iaanag:1ng direotor. MoozC.ing to pasc 1 of the plan, who-.. ma~ine dinotor - I m not reterr.i.ns to ~ deputies or anyboc\Y like that - witil l.tal"dl 191..3 ? · A. Profeesor Dr. Pc-aohe.

~ a.terting to page 2, 11ho as until December 191+3 ? A. Dr. Piech.

Q And aooording t o plan3 who held this poai tion until the micklle of 19ftlt. ? A. Al8o Dr. Pi coh.

Q 'lhus until that tile, that ia to uy the time when thehaM ,.. tl"lUltlternd to Ruohen Uqr na not managing director ? A. Yes , 1£ the aaatmption 1• oorreot that tho time of' the ohange to oonoerna waa t ho &Ee t ime aa when tho heme wa tn.n.terred to Ruehen then this Cf10st1on qi.t bo annu"8d ye1.

Q Did you not aa\f before that tho air NI. d attacks on Woltaburg oaulil (a) to tNUllf'er the oanpa and toim oonoema .ml (b) to take the oh1J.c1ren to utet7' beaicle the point which meat t to separate ti. heat~ rrm the aiak ohilclren? A. Yes, I didi~ thlA.

Q Did t he tomation into conoema not take part aooorting to your memory in tho middle of 19ltAJ, ? A. Yes, this fomation into oonoerna waa in the m1c14le of ~wt I oan.iot rmanber t he exaot date. I know that acme c1eo1a1ona were raac1o with regard t o this by the oain llWUl8erDODt and I think that the f'i rat deaiaion wbioh the main managa;1ont took with rogazod to the tomatlon of ocnoema might have been taken in Jul3 or even the end at June. In sq oaae t ho air raid attaca whioh took place trcm 2lat to 29th JUne were the mnecliate cause af t he fomation ot concerns.

Q Therefore, it I undorstan4 you r.Lghtly, one oan a88\llle t hat round about 1 Ju.13 t}\o ~omation into oonoerna started ·? A. Yea.

Q \th en did tho traan:f'er to Rueben tako place ? A. 7hc middle of June. A oonferenoe washeld on 13th J\ane end t he trmafor was effected imnediately atterwards.

5

,.

Q Thus we oould s ay by y JUI' statc:ne."lto tha t tho formation into ooncerna on t he one hand and the tra.l'lafer on tbc other took place a t roughly the aame time ? A. Yea.

Q Unt il lhis tale D1.rector ~ >m!l not managing director of the Volk817agcm work3 ? A. Uo , he T1tl.s not nana.ging director.

Q Whan t his for mation into co1 oerno t oo!c plaoe, you can aoo t hia trom plan number 4, director i"an wna put i n oharge of the main V10r ko ? A. Yes, be b ecame gmarnJ. ronno.gil.g di r oot or of tho 1n:.1'n works.

Q Thun, t UG if:: t he fi r nt time t ho.t db eo t or I~ rooei v od the position of managing director ? A. Yeo.

Q At the s ame t ime t he variouo oor.cerns and vo.rioun r.orlca were put together in t o oonerns, were they nJ t ? II . Yea.

Q What were the conurns with reterenoo to tke organisaticn plan ? A. Tbe oo!lOern ot t he preparatory taotory at Brunmrl.ok.

Q Did this canoern have 1 ta oTYn 1!1lllaging dirootar or did 1 t belong to the sphere of Director J:ayr ':' A. I want to ompho.sioe t hat a concern " as managed by an i~dependc 1t re~eiblc anna.ging director ar~d in the oaae of t he -..1or ks at 1ol f sburg it mw director ltWlt&e .

Q WM.t i s t he next concern ? A. f'he wool spinni ng faotor.r at Ueude;;: w-.i tb director ll. Riedel as r~il~e dirco tori t hen oomes t he A::qJha,lt company and di.rector Hans l?iedel as DWUlgi "'B dirootor, then t he main wor ks with d i rec t or Uo.yr as mru"la(;i lg director, t o wolf'o.rc ::icrvicec a.rul the llllll'la.gi ... ig dire<*>r, d irect or Dehrs , thP.n the :ara,e.:..ig f a.otocy a.t Us tran, that io i . U per Siles ia, m. th ianagi c dir~to.c, directol.' l'i..1ck~.

Q !'hus t he welfare servic es wilich had f ormerly been a department of the main works of the Volknagen. works P O'l'Y became an independent oonoern, di·~ it not ? A . Y "'a.

Q At t he time 'f'fhen thi s orga."lioati on plan, nmber 4, •s in t an>e who t'rom ta. administrative a ide l!O.O 1 ohnrge of public hMl t h mat ters ? A. I woul d lik~ thin quc:it ion t o b e B.Ll'ced m rt' o""alC t \7.

Q Who was in charge of Rueben ? Was it the mo.i • Wat"ka or was it tho nJ.t are • ervices ? A. ~he oor-p nt Ruehc.n from ~h,. adrri.n.13trntive point of vi• oame under t he welfare services.

Q Did the main works !lave anythine at all. to do with Bllehen a t U11o time ? A. No. .

Q Dld Direotor ~ at tbie tif'lo llWlAging director of the mi.an warlcs, have anythln,s a t all to tlo m. t h Ru"h"ll ? A. Ho.

Q I t' ~ coq:>la int s have to hf' 1Mde t o o.ny mar.aeir.J di.rector , aea :i.Jwt nhom • hoi tl d th<;>y b e •no. e ? 11 . ·: ,. r nna!?J>g dir '"'O tor of the wolf are oervicea.

Q Who we.·; t .mt ? A. Dir ot 0r '1 hrn.

Q JbJ.y I ju-:tt short !,•, mun u: o -n ·c quite :ure t hn.t I ur-der3tand you ri r;htly. Un t->.l t he t ir:ie r: "h~ "' rra' .. i~ of tho 0011oer n.s the ac~ueed Director I.Ayr W!W never m:magine di r ector ? .\. o , he r.no r.c t l"!lB...'1ar,L 1r, director.

Q After the f ormo.tion of c o r.cen"S h,. been...,,. n!l..YIAO~ director of t he m in works but had no~hin tthatsoever to clo w" t h the iTel f c..re r:d.rvice~ , and 11.1. pertio111 or tiothi ! q -10 rlo ti t h t h<' oo.m: e.t lhl,.!1si, b ecause it~ on iJ"depcndPnt co tc,.r -- t • e· e ~l. f're OCl.~ocn - and had i t n mm independct rnanagi.J'\g director ? A. Yea.

Q Mow in your oric L"lAl statement Tth toh baa b een pr od.uceJ. by the proaeoutian you sa.y -- ! am refer r i..Ag t o exhibi t nwnber IO -- that Director Behra oould not be held r es:pon.si lle. lie undortook only t he construction and f urniahina ol ' the new builclbL;:; o.:-d ho :1.0.d to ""lsnr e t !ult r a. ti :ma uerc O\Jl':rlic...l o.nd

6

(

reaoBed the home regularzy. That waa all for wlrloh he was reapons1ble. Dr. Kori>el w.a cllreotly re8p0ll8ible to the gsieral manager, Lir. J~, or tbe 1-dre.11 ar xreiale1ter. The olllldren 1n t he bane did not oome only trm '11e taotory ? A. Until the formation of' oonoema whi oh took plaoe in "Ile Id.dale of 1941+ Dr. *"'el •• ~ rellJ)(>naible to '8e deputy managing direotor and via bl.a to the managing direotor IWuelf. Wben I aid 1n 11'1 •te.11emen11 tbat Dr. Korbel aa direoUy responaible to Dil'eotcr ~I meant Dr. ~ -.a at tlaat time dep.at_y managing direotor, who took t he plaoe of the wnaalng director whsi hew.• abMnt.

Q You 1'91'.-red to tile managiDg 41reo~, Direotar Mayr, and this man&aina 411"eetar, Dinotar u.a,yr, oan only be tomid atw the f'onat1Clll ot the eo.:>ema, an4 thm in tlae main ftl"D and tkia •tatemeut NfC'S to what bappmed 1n Ruell•. Qae oould tlaeretore dns 1ilMt oanolusicm that JOU 1111at ban made a ldatue in your aatemeat AD4 70u cU4 JIOt meu Direetor ira.Yr but Direotar Bllln, la tbat rigid? A. It Dr. ~was reepouible to ma.Jboc\Y tMn u .. re..-.Shle 1;o Dr. Piech, beoauae Di-. Im1>el waa nner pl.aced undAil' the c:n.ra ot Dinotor Bellra.

UAJOR DIAPD DRAPllla The tint ~ in tile auwr to tbat ciu•tic:a aa •no•.

!KB lrrMEBa Dr. Kol'bel na reapcuible to Dr. Pleoh and not at errs time to Dil"eotar Bellra.

DR. JllJCKLD1 WW 30'1 look at crpniaUaa plan ,., tb&t i• tile oOllOC'D plan. It I u.18r8tand JOU rl8Jd17 then tile mecUoal d.,artmeat, the rmaian 4.epartllaat and the pencmnel ci.partment bel.onaed lmmediat~ 1;o the manaa--11 ot tb.e oonelll'D' A. One muat remember tile clevelopnst ot the wbole •tt... Dr. Korbel reoeivu a apeoial or4a- by the mana8iDg direotar, Dr. Pleola, and tlaia apeolal taak-. not obaqed by the taot tat an, orpniaa•ic oMnpe are brougllt about. Dr. Korbel remained an ~ part of tJiae ma1A worka to tile mnaging direoW-, an4 b•i4e• that he -.a in olaarge of the publio Mal th cpeeticaa and tu aiok bap. Alao w1 talin tlae oonnm he .. an a4Yiaar, witllout uq power, t o the managing d!reotor ot the OODGl&"ll. Aa wtrka 4ootor Ile _. not r89pCll18ible to tbe managj ng clireotor ot the weltare 8C"rio• beoauae iib.e welfare Ml'rio• or 4.,artment did not h&Te a llJlll cieparimaat whioh-.. oalled tu worka meclioal depu:"tlDent.

Q Yau mpake before ot Dr.Jtarbel being wark8 a.r.otar. You 11118t aTe meant worka &>otor, did you not ? A. It I aid 1IOl'k8 mnagc I mMDt to 93 worb daotor.

Q Tllua b7 wbat JOU llave atated Dr. Eorbel waa rMpemaible with reprd to Blleka by tat taot taat be had reoeiTed a 11>90lal om.- ot the management at-· oe11oern1 that ie to 8"1, Direotor Pleoh ? A. Yea.

Q nat nre Dtr~tar ~ • duUea uatll the time ot the tarmation ot the ocnoeru? Tllat i e in the Volinagen worka, nat ,,... Ida apheree ot 41.lily. Wu h.e on the teoa'oal or on the oc••0erc1al aide 'l A. Diftotor ~ waa 1n oMrp, .. OYe all t.hingw, ot t he teolm1oal maMaement at tile worJm.

Q · Did W. etteot at 8.1\Y time +.he otallc!Nn' a bcme, el ther atllleben or 1n tu Valk pn worka ? A. The *lallioal mnaaanent had nothing 1D 4o with tlae oldldrm'a Jac8e.

Q Do yoo tldJak that ~lung WU 1;old am reported to bim about the mor~ity rate of' ta.. o.u.4ren ? A. By wbalJ me ?

Q Y .. ? A. It WBJJ Dr'. Xorbel'o job and not IV job t o report about the ohilc11"9' a hale. Wlaether be reported abut it I 4o not know.

Q Did Di-. KorWal then have to report to Director Uap or wban? A. I 8houl4 S,magjne that he would bave reported to Dr. Pieoh.

Q Did you lmOlr at any time that Dlreotar lJ~ bad found out trom aeyboc\y else about the mortality rate in the home ? A. It 1a not know to me.

Q Do 70u tkink it pouible that the managing clireotor was ao buay with tranater matters and general t eohnioal mat t_.• that he mi ght not have heard anything

7

'

I"'

•

a11 all about Wa ? A. That ~ be qui te possible; t hat hia mind waa full with oompletel.y ditterent matters.

Q Do~ know 1'hetb.- at that time that Rueben waa installed and the ooa.oerna nre f'armed there bad been beavy air raid attaoka, and that at that tiM tbe tnnafer ot the main worlca waa undertaken ? A. Yea, I kn.ow this.

Q wao ... 1n oUrge :f'ran the teobnioal point of vitnr of this U-anat .. ? A. Direotor Mqr.

Q Wu there Ill.loll work and worry oonneoted wth this ? A. Yea, there was Vf!lrY mca work and trouble about thia because I had to o<>-opS"&te w1 th bill a lot 1a tb.ia matter.

Q If Dtreotor ~ bad beard about Wa intant mortality, by the argaaiation • plaa, would Ile baTe Md aJJ:f authority or a.Y pe>aaibility to ilake ~ atepe

ar to glTe any ordera, ar llbo 'I A. He oould haT9 reported to Dr. Pleoh and Dr. Poreolae to uk tkem to olaange matt ....

Q But it WU not part ot lli• spla.-. ot duV to aq>eniae thia Wng, waa it? A • .la tar aa the o1dldrea'• llone at Ruelaen i• OOllOS"Ded, no.

~

Q Bow long AaTe you Jmam Dr. Pleola ? A. Sina• 19'8.

Q How cl1d you get to lcnOW' him and aere 'l A.Dr. Piech -.a a lawy_. in Vienna ua4 t.rom 1938 until 19U I -. his legal deputy.

Q l• Dr. Pieola a rela111Te of' Dr. Poraolle ? A. Yea, he is the •cm-in-law ot Proteuor Ponobe.

Q Are you in f'Y w.y, wen in a clistant ft\f, related to Dr.Pieola ? A. Yea, we llaYe a oommon p-4 gl:'&D4 tatiaer. I •related to bim in ~e aix'Wl degree.

Q Direotor *31" m!.n11aine4 that right from t he beg1nn.ing, all the ti.lie, he waa 11114_. 111ae orc1.en ot Dr. Paraohe and Ir.Pleob; ia tbat rigllt ? A. I clo Dtt Jmow UV agreement • wllioh twe gentleme ~bed bet.rem ~el.Tea, but trom tut U.. in whiola Dr. Pleah wu prool•imed one ot the alaitlf' Mnqina dizoeatara and ,._ it w.a notified pubU.oly that he was one of these ohiet •nagj•g direo~r• Jae .. the auperl.or ~ Direotor ~. Tlli a Jae .. hom tlae lepl point o_f' Tiew •

.. Q I wUl 'llDfl uk aome eieat1- on bellalf' ot SnC"in. Do you know Senr1n

an4 ft.at were Ilia 91>h_.• ot dut7 in lbleben ? A. I l'emember SeTeri!l from the time wllm he wu oup lemder ot the Poliaa camp in Woltaburau th• I .... Ida &pin in a&ehen.

Q ft&._ wwe ~e duties at Sever1n1 c1o you lmow ~ about tlaat ? A. Snerin w-.a oamp lellder at Rueben.

Q Tb& t ia ~uat th9 term. Tell us ezaotq what were aia dut:J.e• ? A. .A oaq» le&dC" i• in obarge of ol eanlineaa, good cmler and quietneas in all aooomodatiaa.

Q Diel he b&ve any auperviaory du ti• With r etG'enae to these two r.Dl(U.oal llut• ? A. A.a tar u I lmow I tkink a ditterenoe D1J.St be made between tile oamp aiehen and the otaUdren' o lLome lhlelum.

Q Wba t ditt'erenoe ? A. The oamp a&ell• waa under the arders ~ Swerin , wi tll referenoe to oleanlineu, good ol'der etc and the oaildrm' a hcAe at atehen wu not under the orura ot Severin 1n ~ op1n1&1 beoauae tbis otaUdrm' a llome ••under the orders of the home'• aanagement.

Q OrigSuJly all the Jauts at the 08Jll> at Rueben had been under the oro._.. ot tlae aocuaed Snerin and tbern two huta were aupplied far the children' a

. laome, ·were they not ? A. Yea. ·

Q And you believe from t hat manent onwards they did not any long_. ocne w1 t hin the reaponaibilityot t he aoouaed Severin in his oapaai ty as oamp oaamandant, is tbat right ? A. Yea.

8

/ .

Q Did Severin have aey authority or any right t o s u-pervise t he ~me at Ruehen ho:n t he administrative point of vin with regard to personnel eto ? A. I said before that tM home did not belong to le sphere ot duties of the oamp commandant and that the home management was a different department and that therefore the aocuaed had no right to give orders or t o i nterfere wi th t he homes rnan&g8'0ent in aey- personnel ox- other matters. That is aasum1ng no ditferent arrangements W9X'o ·agreed to between Dr. Korb8J. and D.l.rec tor Behra, but I never heard 8.1'\Ythi ng about auob an agreement.

Cross-examined by J>R. DlWfDES.

Q Dr. ~olt, did you once visit the children's haae in t he Eastern worke1·a oamp when Sister Ella waa working there ? A. I cannot remember that.

Q Pirat ot all you seat Fraulein Wieohera there t o vark there 7 A. I aent Fraulein Wieohera there to Dr. Korbel so that she could 00-01,orate with l:dm. She received her job trom Dr. Korbel.

Q Can .JOU remaaber that Siner Blla made rep•ted requeata BJ" J'rtuilein Yiechers an:l Christoph Bar tba t Dft' linen and baby clot hes ahou14 be puroJlued or repaired 'I A. Y•, both Hlft" kr ud P:raulein Yieoaera told me tba1i Sister nla Sobm14t bad ~proaohed tile oompetent people about purolaasing chU"1"tm' a lineia, olothing etc.

Q Tnat was at the time wtum the children' e home -.a still i n the Eaatel"n wormer• oam;p ? A. Yea.

Q Can you confirm the stat..nt ot Chri&°'CJ.PA Bar whMR ;e made ba court tiMlt round about December sheets and Turkish napldna were au:.-plle4 e A. Yea, there 1n1re al~ 1mppliea ooming in but I do not knoW ~thing about details.

Q You said in 7our etatemant that large amounts ot ohildren' a linen •a aupplioA f'rorl Holland. Are you not mi•tak• there. It is alleged that tbeee amounts oonaisted ot quilt s and mall f'l.&nnel towel.a ? A. No, when I paNonally Tlsited t he Sohaohtng I saw in Sister Kl.la's ottioe on the . tables some oardboard boxes whioh were tull of ohildren' s 11.nan and children's clothing. Thie l~ "'Ion and baby clothing had oome trcm Holland.

Q How do you lmow this because I oan produoe to you a dooument ia8Ued by the peraannel department 1n Jan1.1&r7 l9JM wlaioh 8'Y8 iillat large amot.mta ot vests, b~• e1io. ftl"e supplied by the tirm Herd.- and C~ ? A. Yee, oh114rtn' s linen and ohildren' a olotldng ._. also purobued trom the firm ot Herder but that ia not hing to do w1 th the aupptiea tram Holland. I oannot remember that Bar reported. to me that the neoeaaary items had UTived trom Boll&Dd.

Q Did t hat not refer to an amount of 16 to 18 1 t ema ot bedding wb1oh -.a suppled i.n October 19lt3 ? A. I t hink not.

Q When you visited the bcllle at the Sohaohmg a:tter returning trom Franoe, was 1 t b good oondi tion 'I A. I did not notioe ~hing about which I ooul4 have oomplainecL

Q Can you r emember Sister Blla repeatedly complainging that beddin~ and 1 tema ot 9C11ipment 0C11t1nuoual.y ~? A. Dr • . Korbel told me t j•t Sister 'Bl.la was o~ about t his.

'

Q In spring 19Z.Z. the pl.an whioh waa diaoussed before to erect new buil~1s, children' a huts, had to b e po$anod. Wu i t not the intention to OU"rl' out ,.. further building in the seoond hut at the Sobaohtveg ? A. The welfare department bad at the time placed three buts at their disposal. Only one hut was originally used f or ohildran , while as tar as I remsnber, there was enough aoccmnodation tor atatf and tor mothe.J.'8 e1io in the seooncl and third lwt whioh had been established.

Q Do you remember th.at a t thia time, t hat is when the piana tor t he building of the new huta had to be postponed for some time, Ill". Korbel and Sioter Ella were trying h.ard t o get nursing s taff "I A. Yes, even before that they hwl tried very hard.

Q Do you rember a copy referring t o an appli cation ..m6oh Sis ter Ell e. Made asking that three nurses b e made imnediately availabl e because of the extension of the children's home. Thia must bave been the end of 1.!aroh and the application we made to the so-called MOB department ? A. I remember t elling on c of t he heads in my department, Herr Freiburg , that he would have to get come nurses trom wi. thin the taotory .

Q Do you think that this waa done beoause of tbe appl1oation which Sister Bl la sent t o the J!OB department of which Preiburg waa in charge' A. Nol l tla1.nk that Herr Frei.burg must have approached me to tell me that t he labour embange woul d not plaoe a~ our diepoaal 61\Y atatt tar thiis purpos e and there was a terrific laok of etatt and I told llim t hat 1101Dething must be done in 8ZJ3 oaae.

Q Do you lmaw that these attempts resul ~ in nothing at all ? A. I know that Herr Herr Bar and Herr Freiburg, on ll'\Y orders, aaked everyb~ 1n tbe taotocy whetber tba-e wao ~ t..ie labour 1'h.os laa4 &lV ezp9rience in nuraing and those people we found w act on to tlle workll metioal ~t to be teated th.re u to their qualif io&Uona. I wu at the opinion tba) theae caq>aifP18 bad mome auoooas1 otbenrise we could not have toUDd 11me aWi' tar tile home. Wlletaer l'reiburg ao~ a upplied tile atu>t beoauae of thia very application f ar taree nurao• I do not know.

Q OJl the lliih June l31e4 you had a oc:utermoe wiiih tile ftrioua gentl•m ocmocnod and mde a memo. The laat parqrapla, that ia pangr11ph 5, rea4a "Tlle foreiF ohildrm' a Jaome will b e Plao-4 Ull4mt the ord_.a ot tbe 4Alplty O&lll> oaweme Kaiull". W .. that -.n'ied out ? A. I 11Uggeate4 in tlle oourM ot tltla oont'9Nlloe that eomebod;f ahould be mde respmaible tar tlae obildrm' a bcme w1 tk reprd to tile bullcllnaa etc, ao that 90mebod.J could be Uld ro&pQUibl e if' orders in tllat reapeot were not oarriecl out. It <lid happen that in vq urgent matters aomeb oi\Y •a teniporar113 appointed tar a 08ri&iD job and aa thi• matt• did not aem bl good order to me at 1ibat Ume I auga•tecl tbia method and Direotcr B*'8 named MatWl.1.

Q Thu.a from that time onarda the ohUd.ren'a heme aa tar u teohnioa.1 matt.-s were oonosnecl were tmder the charge ot Yatull, 'tire t herJ ? A. No, I would not like to aq t ila t.

Q WU.t do .. it mean then ? A, I wae under the impreaaion at tbat time that Siater Ka.tile aaid it waa all HCT Hom'• tault ud in 19 opinion Dr. Harn wu at ~is U.me ua4ll" the ardere ot Dr. Korbel and beoauae thc-e •81'9 si-oun4a tor o:r1 tioia I augaoa'Md in ~o oourae ot the oontsr«JOe to Director Behr• that 1n order to get ~ae huta done u quiokl,.y aa poeaible someboct.Y elae llAould be appoiAtecl r eaponaible, beoauae 9pJ:G'"Clt13 Herr Horn na not oan71ng out attar• proper]J. Gm~ apeald.ng, tAia aa the aame method 111'. tbat waa uaed in the reorganiaaticn ot the lutc-n workers oup, where B.-r JCnhJmenn, a single perecn, •s appointed reaponaible tar thia job. In ~ Ver:f. urgent and reaponaible work it often blppend that aome peram ._. siDglecl out and made rupcm•ible tor tho j ob, nen it i- 414 n°' oome within bia apbs-e ot duty no1WJ.ly.

Q Tbus you mean tU.t the appointment of Herr Ma~l wa.a only a temporary on e ? A. Jlatur&lly.

Q Wu W.S oarried out ? Waa JJatull gi.Yen orders ? A. I do not know. The oarryb.a out of t hia matt• would b&ve been the reaponalbiliV ot Direotor Delara and it was laid cloml like this dJJring the oan.terenoe.

Q Thia appointment of Herr Matull' SJ did thia refer to the oamp at Iru.ehm only ar also to tne acme tbat; r emaiJMd at the Schaohtweg ? A. I never understood it tn 8ZJ3 ot her way than that it referred only t o t he homo at the Soh.aohtng.

Q .An organiaation plan has been handed t o the court dated 27t h December 1943. I read out the paraaraph about t be J.>ublio heal.ta t o tho witneea, Chris toph Bar. I tbink it is ezbibi t lJt,. lhen4e4) Will you look at the paragraph wbioh runs aa t ol l ows 1 " The department Publio Heal t h is in oharee of ita siok bays, t he mat ernity home, i nfWltS aooommodation Trith r e"'ard t o t he .oconind&Uon detini te oleanlineas, law ai'ld order. It 1a t he

10

Q Do you reniler a copy referring to an applioaticn lfhich Sister Ella made asking that three nurses be made 1.mnediately available because of the extension of t he children's home. Thia must have been the end ot ?.!aroh and the application was made to the so-cal.led MOB department ? A. I remember t elling on o of t he heads i n lI\Y department, Herr Freiburg , that he would have t o get come nurses from withi n the :faotory .

Q Do you think that this 1'19.8 done because of the applioation Trbioh Sistor El la sent t o the UOB dei.>artment of whioh Freiburg was in charge? A. Nol I Wnlc that Herr Freiburg must have approached me to tell me that t he labour Pllhange ll'Ould not place at our disposal ~ etatt tor th113 purpose and t here wae a 'terrific lack of etatt and I told llim thnt aomething must b e done in an;sr case.

Q Do you lmaw that these attempts reeu.1 ted in nothing at all ? A. I know that Herr Hm-r Bar and Herr Freiburg, on D\Y orders, aaked eTeryb~ in the tactocy whether there wao U¥ t-1.e labour whos laa4 aiv experience i n nursing and those people we f'OWld w act on to tile 1I01im NMlioal ciepar'-nt to b e teeted til.-e u to their qualifioatians. Ina at the opinion tba) th•e campaigns had ~ auocua; othenriae we could not baTe found 8Clle Baff' tor tile holu. Wlle~er J'reiburg ao~ 8 upplied 'ibe ab.ft beoause of this very application for tree nurse• I do not know.

Q On the l.31ih June 13"4 you had a OOD.t.-enoe wi1iA the ftrioue gentl•m oonocned and mde a memo. The last paragrapla, that i• pan.graph 5, rea4s "The foreign obildrm' a lacme wUl b G plaoe4 \Jll4at the ord_.• ot the deputy CUI> oa-en491' Katull •. W ... til.&11 -.n'ied out ? A. I auggeete4 in tlle oourae ot tbia oon:f91Wloe that~ should be made reepma1ble tar tu okildren's home wita reprd to tRe bulldinga etc, eo that aomebod.Y could be Jleld respoasibl e if orders in tllat reapeot were not carried out. It did happen that in vq urgent matters aomebod.v •a teruporarizy ap_pob\ted tor a ocrt&in job and aa •hie matt• c11d not s .. bl good order to me at that time I •uga•ted. thia method and Direotor Belare named MatWll.

Q Tkwl trom that time onarda the oh114rsi's bome aa hr u teohnioa.1 matt.-s were oonoemecl were under the oharge of Matull, Ware t he'J ? A. No, I would not like to ~ t i•t.

Q WU.t dou it mean then ? A. I •• una.r the blpreaaion at tAat time that Siater Ka.'1lo Mid it n.a all Herr Hom'• tault and in JV' opinion Dr. Horn w.a at ~ time uadll- 'the orct..re ot Dr. Korbel and beoause there 1'81'9 srou.nAa tor ar1 ti.Gia I augaMW. in ~e OOUl"M at the oonterenoe to Direotor Bebra tbat in order to p'i ~,,. hu11• c!Dne u quiokl,y aa poaa1ble somebod\f elae abould be appoiAtecl r eaponaible, beoauae appa-en'i]3 Herr Hal'n ftD not oar1:7b\g out m.ttera proper)3. GmerraJ.l3 speaking, tbis -. the aame method ti' that aa uaecl in the reorgan1 ... um ot the Baatcn workers oamp, wb81'9 Hwr Kuhlmann, a single perem, as appointed responsible tor th1• job. In ~ very urgent and responsible work it ot11111 bappend tat mome permn wa siAglecl out and made re11p<maible tor the job, even it it 414 not oome within hia 8J>Mr• ot duty nozml.]3.

Q Tbua you mean taat the appointment of Her Matul.l waa only a teq>orary one ? A. )fatureJ.]3.

Q Wu ~a oarried out ? Waa Uatull given orders ? A. I do not know. 1'he oarrytaa out o£ t hia matt.- would bave been the reapcmatbiliV ot Direotor ~a and it was laid cloml like thia cJuring the o~erenoe.

Q This appointment of Herr Uatull' •J did thia refer 'to t he camp at lllehen onlJ or also to the acme that r emaiJMd at the Schaohtng? A. I n ever understood it in 8:n(f ot her wa;y than that i t referred only to the home at the Sohaohtweg.

Q An organisation plan has been handed t o t he- court dated 27 t h December 19lt.3. I read out t he p&ra&l"BPh about t he ~ublio health to the witneea, Chris toph Bar. I tbinlc it is exhibit 14· ~hande4) Will you look at the paragraph whioh rune aa fol l ows a " The department Public Heal t h is in charge of ita aiok b~s, the maternity home, i nfo.nte aooonunod.at ion with r e -;ard t o the aoc®*riation definite olea.nl.ineas, law and order. It is t he

10

,

reapcns1b111 ty ot the department t o oalTy' out all p olioe instructions about r et,istration and 1.,ublic 1.oal t h m.a'tt ere ~ncl ot her orders given out byihe authorities ab()lf t t hese or ot her 1nt erna.l matters. " You see t hat this ardor i s dated 27 Dcoembur 194}. Do you kl1ow t hi s order ? A. No, I do n ot knO'l'I' i t .

Q Publio,i hoalth departmenta does t hat oonvq anything t o you, about whi oh t his order talks ? A. 'l'hi s i s an ord.- about it by Direotor Behrs atam l:eada of the clepartmcnt r.hich was a t t his time still under him, so that I know notbillg1 and whOh obviously is baaed on an agreement beWHn kimselt and Dr. Korbel with regard t o the publio heal. th department beoauae I waa al'aJB UJLder the impression that t he siok bay•, the naternity installation, W ants a.cco~.o&ation eto. cam e undell" the works medical d epartment, wider 1rhcia Herr Horn aleo owne.

Q This departmeut Public heal t h and t he spheres of duties as laid down in tbi• order; did t hey not oome within t he spheres of dut ies of Herr Horn ? A. I think so, y ea. I woolc not ?mow llho els~ could be reaponaible tor tbia.

Q And trca taeae tlainga, oan it b e gathered that HCT llom came under Direotar Bebrs ? A. Yes.

Q U Siat.- Kathe comwained about tno a.oooJDOdatian and oleanlinMS and sa14 it was Herr llorn's respan.Aibil1ty, was •he not right aooording to tlaia pl.an *1oll I ban •hown 70U ? A. Yea, but that does not mean very moll beoaua• D1·. Korbel would have t o got ascistanoe and help e i tl\er trom one department or t ho other. I know that at all timea t here was between Dr. Korbel and the management, Herr U.n. For inatanoe nen Dr. Korbel paid a viait to the varioua sick ba.7D then he was accompanied by Herr Horn. I oaw that ~aelt in t~e s ick ba_y in the f or e ign workers' oamp, and i f aay 9t1ppliea had to be purob.aaed Dr. K.arbel eated what waa necessary and Herr Hom got it down and then tried t~ recei ve tbne s upplies trom the competent department, Wither of t he wor-ks or ot the welfare department, and aooordi ng to this arder dated 27th Deoe::nber Ui.3 Herr Horn is givm hi.a ms department, tba.t i :J publiche.alt h, and i e t o b e under tlle order s of the welfare clepartment. That miajlt have b een due 'bo an agreement reached b etn'een Dr. Kor bel and Director Bibro, o.nd evident~ to make t hingo mare easy and aimple.

Q I apeoial.l.,y asked you tb.ia question beoauae you maid here in JOU?' atatemont t hat fJ iater Kathe had. Giad t hat i t rro.s all Herr Horn' 8 taul t. Now a.ocording to t his orpniso.tion pl a.., which I have placed in tront of you you can see i ~ tm'I definitely :r err Hom' a job to look attar auch nat~ ... as accoumodalon, cl eanlineBS etc. Do you confirm naw in this •t&tem«mt tbd s :.ster Kathe was r i eht i n oaying that HerT Horn YllS r es pons ibl e ? A. Yea, from the or ganiootional point of' vieTT.

Q WJac 70u v1a1 ted Ruehen did yoo find t he llome 1n good ocqll tion and the cltlld>:en a l s o ? You wero pr e sent when the witness ~' who tool~ he" child to the home on 26·th JW\e 1944, mnde her s tatement to t he oourt. Uad tlae home only reoentl_y b een opened ? A. It bad either juat been openod or was not r ead3 yet; I oannot i t!lagine how i t could be rea~ by t hat time.

Q The rl tneaa stated tbat she had s een traces of bugs and that tbe ohUdren had been bi t ten; is this a t all pos~ib1e according t o what you ll&W the oomp to b e l ike when i t 1'8.s f irs t openfld ? A. I t hi i.k 1 t i s impoaaible.

Q The w1 ~eas further stat-'. t hat t he clothing ot the old.ldren was not olean and tb.at t ho linen""8.a not clean e i t '1er. \'lhon you visited t he home did you see tha t too ? A. I can only af1' i rm tha t during IJ\Y f irst vioi t a t o rueho;, the ham'l made an mtetJplal".Y i mpr e'cai.:m and that t he i.."lf'ants were cl eanly clad.

Q 1be.'1 you ~id y o•.r unexpect ed vi s its did you see Sister Kat he being 'busy 1t'1 th the children or uS"s you u:ider the impressi on that she did not oare about t he children ? A. ,/lien I ent~ed the hme t he nurses and Si s t er 1Jl tl.e uer e tJ.~s wor1'.ing .

( At l l OOlaurs i;hc court i o adjourned until lUO houro)

11

Q Def endant Tyrol t, have you any chilW.' en 7 A. No.

Q How 'l'Al\Y children do· you estiu.te died in all at Wolteburg, that ia the East lager and the Sobachtweg, roughly ? A. I e::.1tiwate betwem 20 and ](). ,

Q Do you oq t hat is the total for tho whole perlod a t t ho East lager and the SchoohtT1eg ? A. J. t hink t r.ta t. the outbreak . 01 boils a t the Sol.aaohtweg was t he chief cause t or most of t be deaths there. I never heard of a oonsiclerable number of death.a before at the East lager of the •JCb&o.1tweg.

Q Would it not have been a good idea tor you to have f0Wl4 out how rna.n;y at t he time ? (Ito an:mer).

Q Would 1 t not have been a good idea tor you in your oftioial oapaoi ty to have toun4 out hol'1 many children d i d die at t he time ? A. 11hen I discussed th:l.ngs with Dr. Korbel t here was never a.ey mention ot a oonaiderable unmber ot 4ea.ths ot obildrorn.

Q 1;'lb.y did you not nsk him ho17 ~· died ? A. It did not come Within D\Y proYinoe nor did I as'c the number ot ordinary dee.tha of people in the sick b~.

Q 'f ere you in 1943 o.cything to do Tri th ti e welfare of the T101·kers ? A. I was ohief of p ersonnel, and I ml& 1n charge of welfare for the whole personnel.

Q Do you not think that welfare inoludea wbe'thei· obil4ren in your hane in your worka are living or dying ? f ... Thero wao not ~ a pos i t1on tor welfare in the Volknagen worka; t here was realzy onl3 the position far chief of all ~sonnel.. Tho welfare of all anployoea and worker s 1n the f~toL7 wu the taak ot t he 4eput,y of the Doutaobarbeits front who had to report on these matters to the manageulmt, but beoauae I apeolally l ooked into mo.ttera oonosned with tareign workers tlhen I became ohief ot peraawlel I beoanme known eoemget toretari worlcera tor t he interest I took and that ls ~ .~bey came to me when thtlr wanted somethlng.

Q But you took so li•tle intorezt 1n th• you did not know haw mn;r ot their ohil drcn died, is that ril')lt ? A. liad i t oome a.t all t o 11\1 kno11'.l.edge tUa.t ao many children died in tile kinderheim I would have diaouaaed it with Dr. Korbel, suoh as I did la•.

Q Wculd i t not have been very oasy for you to find out , 'l'Jrolt, by one question haw many had 4194 ? A. Tbore 11aa no reascm toput that Cl'lo•ticn.

Q And y ot you had some interest in t he welfare o'£ the forei&Jl workers, had you Tyrol t ? A. Yea.

Q You w.-c pers<XllUl.y aJ:nayo t rying to do your beet for t he toreiwi wor kers, 1Nl"e you ? A. Yea.

,, Q And you did no t even know hOlt many of their ohlldten died, is that right ? A.

I waa only inf'onned of tho exact number of dea t hs i.n t he ;.;ohaohtweg ancl l)aat l~ger af'ter.

Q Who seleoted thfl barracks t or t he ba.biee ·in the ~t lager ? A. The f irs t barraoka in the Bo..;;t l a_sor were chos en by t he oamp l eader. Kuli.l.manrl. He suggeoted i t to me and I agr-ced.

Q Di d you actually go and aeo the be.JTaolca b otore the babies w~·e put in them, in the Ea.et lager ? A. Yes.

Q And were you personally oatiafied, Tyrol t, tll.o. t i.bey were pe:d 'ecu..Y ade~to tor infant babieo ? A. Yes , absolut~.

Q Do you think that wooden barracks aro the beat t.VJ>e of aoooaanoc1at1on t or intant babies ? A. Ho, 1 am not of tha i; opinion.

Q But t noy are good enough ~or forei gn workers' oh1lllre.n , i s t hat ri~ht 'l A.No, that ia not oorreot because German oh i ldre l too were a.oooau:Odat ed in

11

Q Did you ner reoe1Te a copy of the oiroular which 1IU put 1n to this court aa an eddbit by Grunhage, set t ing out the requirements of Ge.uleiter Soulcel

.for tbe establishment ot theee homes. That would be nhibit one. It 1• hea4ecl, Berlin,trom the Re1oh Assooiation ot county aio1:tun4s. The aubjeot la the repe.trMiton of pregnant toreign workers. (handed) Io th.at the c!oouaent yotVJOf f A. Yea.

Q Did you ner •eaei ve or see a oopy ot such a document in the Wolknagen TlorkS? A. No.

Q D1d you nc- aee it in the medical ottioe ? A. No.

Q Did 10'1 kDo1r what the ottiolal policy of the German GoYernment -.a toar4a lutern WOl'bn tn 19A.3, Tyralt' A. Not in detail.

Q D14 JOU Jmw that there,.. a d111C1l"la1natlontn .._tment ot the Butern workers trm other toretwi wadc91"8? A. Yee.

Q And that the Butsn workers wwe to get leas good treatment than other toreip wort ... , is that right ? A. That ia not known to me aa anorder by the laloh gcnenment but they,,_.. aubjeot to oertain reatrlotion u regards aooomodatlan an4 food.

Q Dl4 they get the lmreat food ration in G«rmar\Y ? A. They received lonr ration ecmlea than other foreign workers, but I do ~t know whether tbe,y ,.... the lotrest.

Q Do JOU know ot 'aqy other b~ ot people in ~ during the war wbo got a lower eoale of foo4 than 11be Butern 1fW'bl•a ? A. Yes, I beline that intermaent Ollp• and puniehment oampa bad lORr ratee.

Q And, ot oourae, ooaoentratton oempe ? A, I do not know ~ oonoentration ...... Q Who aeleated Dr. Korbel to be the warlm dootor 'l A. When I ent_.ed the

1IQl9 Dr. x.bel bad ~ been the 4ootor thtn1 I do not know.

Q Wbo ..a. U.. 4eolaion that tta work 8boul4 tnolude the ..U.oal ...noes ot then• kl,,,,.,. beta 1n the But lager? A. Dr.Piech, the mw.pr.

Q At that tiM who waa the d11J1Ut:1 tor Dr. Pleah, wbm lorb.t got the meclioal n-n'ng ot the ldnamilela t A. That wu Director II.Qr.

Q D14 10'1 haYe oonVC"B&tiona with ltnlaleiter Luedt.ke about the setting up ot the bale betore iii waa actual]J started f A. There la a 41.tt_.moe to be Jlilll!e b9'ween the first bOllMt tor the lftla an4 the one tor our own use.

Q Por the ane th& t waa made in the a.at 1apr ? A.. TbC"e had alretM\Y been Sn niatenoe the bo•e tor the wm1ca, with atx or eight intanta in it, 'l.Dcl that Md been ea111Lblimhe4 by ourHlna witbaut t.he lmow'le4ge ot the Kreiale1 t• er mvb~ elae.

Q Did JOU ner talk to the Kreialeit_. about the eatM>liahllent of U3 babies hOIM ' A. No, but th_.e waa the home w had al.r~ eetabli•he4 wbm he Tiaitecl the camp.

Q That WU the .S.alt tbat Oriatopb Bar ret.-red to in hia eYidmoe, ia it ? A. I 4o not rmember an;r ret..-ioe to a Tiait by the Kreiale11-" in Bar'• m4enoe.

Q Wu 1 t a "f'l•i t ot the ltreialei ter and you and others ? A. I do not un4c-atan4 the queatian.

Q Do you raaember Gnnhage'• deaoription ot a Tiait when a mother complained to the Kni8l.e1ter ? A. Y•.

Q Wwe you on that nait '1 A. Yea.

13

· Q What stops diet you take to f i nd out; i f the n.other ' s ooq>l aint Y1a.S justified about t he ntilk 't A. I aGk od .r'raulein iiechers, a aoc i ::U. ·:rork er, to contact Dr. ltorbol and ask: for hi n £HJoiotnnce .

Q About this specific cav e of tni s mottler 'I A. That l /9.3 t n" reas0:1 vii\)' I uked Fraule1 1 W'i.echere .

Q What ansYfer did :/OU get l>aok 88 a r eeul t 01' your enq..ii ry 'I A. l he: e \,as no enquiry made by m3; I onl o.31:cd E'raule!i:.u 1leohcro to contact Jr. 1.0J.'b c..1. The cnquiey, as far a s l rcmc>M~·er, was clU.'l' icd out in tw.t c.num er t lut.t tbe atat e11ent by t hnt one 1ti tneec was ohallmged by the nursing atatt.

Q You youraelx" never r ound out whe t he.c the 1IOlllall was telling t he tru•h or not ? A. I aaked Kuhlmann t hen Tlhemer he knn anything of 1 t but I cJannot remember that he wa.<J in a posl tian to gi ve me an ~t a>w.ter.

Q Did ~boezy teat the milk a t the t ime o~ tile ooi:iplo.int ? A. I do not think t hat rail<was still there abo•t whic h t he complaint hod b een wade.

Q Did t hey ten &rr:f 1ld.lk at all ? A. At tbat ti.me the home was run b;r t orelp wanen and it was certainly ver;1 diftioul t to 1tiake enquiries.

4 I take it t hat th~ milk wao n9 t tested then ? A • ..[ could not :form O.ll:Y

juds:guent on i t a t tbat time. I was anl.,y angi.·y a'bout t he co rrpl aint having b een made at all.

Q How IDUl1:f viei to did .vou ~ t o the hast lag_. in the kindad1cihl, i n all ? A. Th& t I oannot M.Y toda.Y •

Q ~y t A • .L t uepenciB what you moan by :tlll\Y• 1ihe1. I vioi ~,ed the Ba.:;t lager I wa::s eomet i mos ~ busy a t the kin<lorhci.ul. l'hat was not v ery pl ee.aant .lo-,:- a e because inside it the mothers nursed their babi es .

Q What wa.o so unpl easant about tbat . Co.n you not stand the ni ght of childrau be~ · wrsed ·? A. No, not that but I nm .tot a doctor.

Q Who '1!ls responsible, 11yrolt, f ur the a.dmini s tre.tion of t he home in the 'Jast lag.-, exc:i.uuinq t ho medical handling of t he c11i l drc1 t ? Jtot dopart ment ; names of p eople I am referring to ? A. 'the kin.derheim at the East l ager wo.s, a s soon a e tho :first bi rths occured, put i n t he medical care ot Dr • . l'orbel.

!HI J UDGS AJNO::AT~s '.die CJ.teation was omit-ting t he medio&l care 't A.. All cpes tiana relating t o the home and to the social work of the oaop were tranarerret to the medical d epartment by Dr. Piech.

llAJOR DRAPER: 'Who would be responsibl e for seeing that there were no inoeote in the b arra ck8 , for exampl e, 111 the l!:ast lo.g er ? A. '.i'he s ame person wno wo1fld b e .respoT's i ble for ueoing 'L11ero were n J l n aected in '.;he s ick be.;y.

Q And You as a la"":Y'el' v.orking in the T/Orka are not in a -poei tion to uy who ·t hat wa· , o..re you 't .A . l.'Ot' foe tlisln.feoiiu.a and '1doueilig o.~ the .;as·~ lager I eat1 thc;r were c urried out, but t he ~eoui.ioo ol t h i.e disi .1tec"liiob in the Iii.ck b'y was not initiated by '~elf but by the modio&l aide. I ffll t responsible f OL' tile oleaziline!ls in the Zs.at l ager -- for t ho. e par to that were in "W° charge.

Q Do you ngree that i;i1erc are ... J .1.·e t.hls~ thai.1 puc~ uedic.U 'lUtlst i..Jns that have to oe a.cal t Tli. th i."'l runnir1g a baby 1 a....o ? A. C e.1.~tainl,:,r .

Q And JJr. Korbel• o l\mction \ftW always ll..ii too to ·the roed.i ou·i ai de or tl~o runn i ng o'!: the houies throughout , v a.a i t JJot 't • I have • oin.t eU. out ucco 1 &tore t hat tho a acignment wtnoh T7&:l 81.VC'l to J.Jr • • ~orbtjl wiw uot only t :ie me.l.ical side ot t he runniN! of the nome i..icon1.1ne ile aloo c l10ze t nc stru:f ar 1 a11?oint~ l thet.'\e

Q Jlid Dr. J<or bel have a f ree hand i n neleot1ng botn German sist ers .end foreign Sisters tbroup:hout the whole history of the babies ' hOlle ? A. Yee.

Q W~e vou satia1i cd nt a.11 vimeu 'i i1.n the OOillU ticna that i)l'OVO.iled in the baby homo in t he J,uat laget', '.1.117olt •. A. l eo, ftlth ta< ~:..c t.'Ption of t he one

14

cp.ae which I heard of t . ose co•r.plnin ts about the .nil!: rud nothiag 1.~ lmown to 1.•e abo:.it dirt an cleD.1"11.neos . r Ol'll.J knotr t l'Ul.t ooo;•l aintc \'lore I £lode about the nuroin~ :;t~4'f ; nb o11t tl c> forcif~ t m8.r'o.gc:nen t .

' Q I n tho .J::lot l aser ? l'I. Yoe.

Q Pi el you have t o 'mi t w1t i1. tho co npla.iJi t G cn;Je i 1 be:fore you ':nefT or hod you alrea<\; f'ountl out for y , ur:lolf 'l A. Kuhlmo.nn told 0 -3 t hat.

Q V'ao it a thinR tr ... '\t you. coul d 1::.wo u.ixovor cd, and ca::iil.Y , youroolf if you bad ever g()no i11to t ho hor::c and :'\&le a t.hoA.-ougll in:.>peotion ? A. I talked to Ure Jtori.>ol a bout ruch thin~ all .then I viai tc .. t i.h.c oacrp a...d t he East lager and I there heard Ca:Jpl:d.n t c a:.1d I :.iaw t hin$S l.heb were not right and I o.-tainly talke4 to Dr. :orbel about t hED, and furtbennore the staff at the oanr,t> tal.k8l to Dr. Korbel abou t t hese thiuP,e cj,w·tna hio vioita.

Q V/ll.'l.t t h inE;S did you :;ce t or yvur:Jcl f ''ere wrong in the ~ast lager, i n t i1e Jcindorbeim ? A. :.one.

Q So y 0 u. had to rely on llhat other people told yoo. ? A. l~o, I aa14 I went to the ho.'no now and ag:Un and >1hcn I mo there I did not oec anything \ll"Ong. I alzo bcl.ievc t ,at a. 'lllOOWl aooi:ll wackor io i n a much better position to get a p icture an to r:hat a kind.&·11eit.J ongbt to b e than I, o. bncholor .

Q As a baohelor you could gp uud ooe whethor t here were bugs in the barracks or DIDt , could you not 'l 1 ... I said befor e that I had no businecs in the iufanta hooo, cor ::.n the oick b o noro hoapi ttU.::; ond I oould n6t do mor e than to aak tho ~ social fJOrker »o.trparu>ible for tllooe thiugG in the \70rka 1.o aok into t leSO things .

Q Do you I'01.::t1bcr the v i s it ~ou 1:.adc r1i tn 0rintoph !Ku' to the hotne in t ho Scho.cntweg, 1;hioh you told us u.bost in your evidence in chief ? A. Yes.

Q When you wen t thRt day hal-1 you n.ll~ea.Uy received compl ail1ta ::tl)o .r~ '!ii1e toran, or not'/ . A. I !lad henrd about liffi cul tic.; in tho ho·:ic .

Q You h~d heard 1 t :from Prnetoriua ' Jt . ?lo.

Q Had ;;-ou heard . i t _'ro:. .. Ud 41w IJri:::tph Dar ? A. rio.

Q lfere you tlid a.bout the LUaoian girl who wnted her child to sto.,y in the oamp ? She did r.o·t war.~ i t t o 0 o mto t l c ho 10 and d.i.e ? 1\ . Yes, through Bar.

Q Cristoph Bar ? A. Yes.

Q Be!'oro you 1aade the vic1.t ? J~. I t ;;i:u1 an tho day of the visit; a. fev. hours ' bef'ore .

Q Was it b ecause or ::nat report you 1tiado tlu; visit ? A. 1»or that reauon and because li'rau l'Tietholllnor tol d mt' about the out break of boilu .

Q ff£\c.l ;fOU heard lUlY 0 thor CV"i\>l.OiJl tC o.r.rt from l•l "UI 11iethanr.1er and ,,ristppll Bar ? A. ?Jo t ooJ:rpl.ainto but d11'fioul t ies.

Q Uow l ono \783 the occasi on of your l u:;t vi31 t before the one vrl th Criatoph l3af '? A. Sevc~'""Ul t :o. k c bo:.:or c.

' • Yee.

Q And w..i.s all i.?•ordcr ncvor u \7oe!<0 b cf'oro ? alr~y.

A. I SllW cic" c h l l d.r('li t11cn

Q Wa.o t 1.i::; clJcut .... u:i:o o ... 19li4 ~ . • ~ o, th.n t Tir.o l1cforc.

Q Did you oce nnyt hi.n g 'trong 1n i ho home on that vi.at t , acept the aiok ohadranJ on the one oavcral r.cckc tGfore ? A. Uo you r ef'er t o t ho chiltlren or oontll'.; ionc ?

Q The ' :hol e ho:ao 'I .~ . ~.o , I co.1.not IJt\I t u t .l wo.u a~..;ruok by n 1ythi.ng .1hi oh

15

·'

r:n:; a,:>ocial~/ bad. .hero T.Uo u ovcn· &00<1 ni r in ".;he kinclcrhein and I :law then !.hut a"' il far.~ ~7:l.~: l L tcd w1t of s. ba t h t ub in Tlhich i ,..rneilntel;v i,et or o ano'Gher it.f~t had been hathcd.

Q Diu you 1;akc c ooplaint:; to the ' i ot e.cc on thi o vis i t ; the three weeks botare visit ? A. I did not s~ t brco weok3.

Q J\f 'ter :Jcverul woeko ? A. Ye~J .

Q 1Tho fro:· tlUtt, .J i r.tcr 1;a thc '? A. :Len.

Q Di u she burs t into to::t.rs ? A. ?10 t i en, but in J w1c ::::he did.

Q Vle.ce you dis sa t i sfied on t his visi t Ylhco nh e did ntt ary ? A. lo, t he ho11e was not a.:. n i ce and a o clean ~r; 1 t had been oriui nall y .

Q Did you o.s!: Sis tar Y..at he for oxplo.nn.t ions nt that time 0 h . Y~s.

Q Wero you sa~isticd by her el.pl ana t i ons w t iiat visit ? A • .&.be explanation she gave me wa such tho.t I a :::: a lr.yman and non medical mon ooul.d not 8f13 Mythi ng against 1 t .

Q D.i.d you -nkc t i.e ~..:l ~tcr up i n:-:i di:ltcl.7 wi th Dr. Korbel ? >. . Yas.

Q But you l et wevornl \Voeks go by before you visited the homo ni;o.in, i G that co1Toot ? j,. 13eti1ecn one of thoco visits and the next several wceka paa•ecl.

Q Wo.s i t a smprise to y ou that the hon1c 11as in no bet ter conditi on whC'n you came •Ii th Cri~toph Bur ? A. I \\'llO var.)· wuch surpriGed.

Q ,, uo i t v:or~e or Tm:: it the cru-:c ? A. I t \ lt\s \~Se.

Q ~;uch worse ? A. Yes.

Q '1.'yrolt, on t his visit TT.ith Cr1ntoph Dar , was not that hane a dreadtul diegnae t A. You coul<! no t quite say a disgrace but :l:t ll'!l.S in such a condition that I t'el t I had "!;o toke i1redio.tc otcpa.

Q ''iru:. i t ::uch ttu·~ you \011ld have l ik('< o.ny child of yours to havo r emained 1n that home f ar one day ? ).. I put t he sa.~e sentence in the 8lme 1POl'da aa t he prosecutor ba· n oY. uoed. to t he ut atf , and the onswcr they r>ve to me \'ID.n ".le have ow: chilfu' •.m here '' . Cf c -:>uroc Si ster Kathe had h or otild there • .

Q To vlhich German Siaters did you uso the worda t h.at you nhd I both used 'l A. Sioter . .at he .

Q Th· 2 time '\1erc you sa t 13f1ed. T1i th her explano. tions, Tyrol t ' A. J'Jo, I was di::;oa tisf'ied T.'i t h her cs..""Y.:plenations.

Q Wa.e 1 t a tact t hat :i•ou found thn.t not r:me of t he"\ ims a ju~tif'ied acuee ? A. I co.r.not oo::; nolle of t he:::1, but the ~otal i t"Tr e '" s ion Tm.S G" Ch t hat I was d i o.JcatirJficd.

Q .Jid you a.ci'.: a t tho.t tine hoYT oon:/ had di~l up t o tha t cl.at~, 'l'yrolt ? A. I o.2kcd ,..,. .ether chi l drrn did die e t all d l'1hether thos e boil3 we-re not the rca ::.on fer 3..~-:h,nnd \-r.~c."1 he ruwwer 1m.·~ "Yes, t he cause of deat h Tro.G i>rlnoi­pa:.iy t l.OSC boils11 t}1en J ot arted t o t ell tbeu <1tt •

Q =:>id it not seem illportant to you at that t1*, Tyrolt, to kow how mny ha:l died ? .. • I n:i.'!cal ~h<- (!\lestion hem" 1iwny hnd. died 1 ut no ar.D"Wt" 'nllB giTm. ,._

Q \ lo.:J that trc:l Sister Y'..L'.t .e ? A, Yei, the converaati on ms chi ef'ly "1th Stst.r Ya.the.

Q Uo , this portic1!lar t].!03t ior of how ''18.!:y ha.J. died, whi ch yo11 acked ? A. I e.~:cd Si3ter l'..at h e d:i l ch1Mren die.

Q And -;·mat r cpl.y did .,,,,.1 uet ? " . :.cc .1cm11or the uC.. .!" e or th" r c )1. •

I oannot r et"M'r.lbcr t ho em.ct r eply; ! cannot " l')u oai not ~oo t t o rc"'lenber thnt after

16 -

'

THI Jl:DG · AiJVOOXL'l' : o.t: H :.ot ,i, ort r .. n1; t .... .Lind m t hoTJ !::u'W p oop ibe lu~d d ied and :ould ths:·~ nrn.?er wt iniprec::; itsel f on your .:iind eve af"ter tuo yco.rs ? A. All I r e.-:-eober i3 t ho.t I "\Y~olt .fol t the uree to ask whether i t tms the boil s caused the mnny deathG, n. d t '11-. Hl'l3"7er '7o.3 not a :;~t i::;fnctor; CJnc but I uo not re-:· .:-inbnr •,1:1ctb1..'l' i: ask-· f o·c tho .mmher and I do n')t ta.ow whethor t ho s ister ':'rou.""'.d have h een il o.1Jo:•i ti on 1.o :;ivc me a number..

MAJOR DRA I"ER: v l U. you ns!-;: to s ee t he death ccsrtU'icates or cop1.ea of them? A. ::o.

Q Wher~ uere the dea t hs ro&ictcr cd ? A. ~hat I do not kno>'I .

Q Did you never even toke t ho trouble to f ind out whether t he sistern wore regi stcri ""!:. t he dcntn~ '. A. no, 1or ::.~ the s ick bay; t hat uas uot ~ task.

Q Did you give Sister .{ath c- a ..?i cco of y<Xrr mlnd on this vis it and "ell her exaet1_7 what you t honght ot hor ? A. Y co.

Q Dit1 you have the i -:;pr~colnn -:.1~ t uho ,mo complctoly i ncapabl t.. a.Yld unoai table tor t he j ob ? A. :ro.

Q Di l you think :J. t ·-m.o a ~ood i dea f or her t o s t ay an in t hat jol> nftar w"uat you had seen Ti l th Crriooph :Jnr ? A. In norr10.l t il.2es she Y~uld hnve been r c.!)laoed.

Q Dici y ou f!P t o Korb el and sugcr::; t oho had b et t or bo re_placed imit1ed.iateJ,y ? A. Yes .

Q Did she crver 3e1 t ho saok ? A. 'l'here Tms i'lO i)osoibili ty f or tb&t 'beoaw1e nobody uas t hm-e; Si ster ID.la 'i19.S ill.

Q Doe3 not the ;rsv c cmtrol a l urgc nwnber of childre.--i ' s nu.csoo ? A. Yos, the nurstns <lep3.rtme."lt of t he usv.

Q And this uor1'..s Ttn.:J i.-l a str cncth through joy co uunity, ,,.a s it ? A. j,o.

Q Wol f'sburg WllS n DP Stadt , ira9 it not ? t • • Tho name was the oi t ,, of the JCDF Oar .

Q Which was the object '".1hich we.::: mo.de in the Volkswagen 1r01"cea, was 1 t not ? A. he. oar.

Q Co:ll.d not the !BlEl.gcrnent of the Vollc::~:o.gan ·1orks have been in o. postio!l to appl y t o the l.SV f'or bet ter nurne :J ? A. I do r~ci1ber that Dr. ltol'bel apoke to Dr. Pioch, a.r.d mnybc ·to Dr. Porscho -- T do not la.ow f or c~in - .. A.bout so~c .xliool -:ro.ined i.urac::: buL it ..,.~ not poosib1.e at t hat t ime to get any beoause t hl'y vrer e allin the i.J.111 L£lrY hospitals.

Q Did ~rou 1~,u.1 t>.at r..utior.i.:J. nociu.li3t orga. .i:Ja: .. i ur..:; uare 1.ot ;;ie;mt to h <>lp forelgn ' rorkcrs cLildreit ' ... hcac:J ? A. I ~salt Tlrote to the Gau oi"f'loen ot the ! SV end I ad:ed l'or o. :::i .Jtcr. I c o .J.J. rc.!'ei.· :l.l . ti10.~ .. to a yorr.;f'lnal aoqn1.c::::ie~1c0 bcoat:~ the r:A"i:X'Ol! of till 1~3I>i -~al, " i::: ~J eJ.' l'argltrattu., ki.1ea th!. di::;tr'.ct lead.or DY :Lc- t .. r, a.ncl no .-.'<.W r.n.z rccoi v ed.

Q Wo.s Si s !.er /"..a t he very ".pi:et fthcn :'ou t ol d hci· off ?

Q • Sho , ,.~t ? } .. ,,,.. , . .... . . A. I t hi1 k oho TTBS.

Q Did ~/OU t hi ·,•: the co ,'l.i t:'.o!.S in t :2 ~ hoil!c a t ·~l!C.t t L .e ~are .:o bul -:.:'\at aor.lc·ti•irig 1eed.ed t'> ,, e clc•· e ver ick~ ~o u t i t r i c t ? ,\ . I me of the opini on that t he epidemic had to be f"ought 11111ecliatel.y.

TUB .rorx~r ATWCC:\~E~ !>5.d you :Je. !'i ~tcr Kathe' s child a t t hat vici t ? A. Yes.

Q How w!lr: it l ooked ~f~CL· ? A. I t ~ ·.iOll lookc-.d a.:'ter.

MAJOR D.RtiPml: 1'aa 1 t in the 90.'"le r o<,.'l a::i the ot her childrtm ? A. Ye u.

17

r

Q Was it the only Geiman ohild in that home ? 11 . That I caru1o t ~·

Q Did you t ake s t eps t •J enquire ho'l7 i. t TI:ts that on e caild rm~, well anli •l\alW othe.~:s were sick 't A. I t t1a3 not only thi n one c hild \7ol l a.nu the otiiers :1ic:k; t here "'Tere rnany children well.

Q Bu b t h i s c hi.ld bel onged t o Giater J\Atho, the nurse i n char~c, di d i t not ? A. Yes.

Q That did not s trike you in any way as unuounl or peculiar tha~ Slater Kathe' a obi ld was well and you haA an epidemioa of boils and skin ~liJ'Oublea at ~he same time '? A. All t he older ohildrm were ab solutely heal '1iY1 it was on the smallest tthildren that r no'dced clress~.m;s and 3istel.· Kt.the' p ohil4 was also b eyond the age of un infant. It was not a ver y early date.

Q lfaa i ·i; your duty 1.0 go i n to Gbat home Mild tell Sister Kathe of t ? A. No.

Q Were you going in the cour se ot yu1Jr duties ? A. rro. ,.

Q Had you •10 right to do lThat you vrere doing in tel ling off Sister Kathe ? A. Not reUly.

Q Apart troua })r. Korbel who else was there to do it ? A. Dr. Pieob.

Q But you acted t'or l>r. P iech, did y 0t1 ? A. ?fo.

Q In the matter of the weUare ot the workers did vou not represent Dr. J:'ieoh ? A. l!:aoh IM1l in ~he works who WBR given a apeoia.l duty acted on orders of thr rMnar er.

Q ~t you bad been oalled to order by Dr .Piech f or going in to make this r OtT With Sister Kathe would you haTe got a rOfl <r would taere have been no 1111..- ? Could you :i'or an ansrrer'8.y you were doing your duty or ,,a s t l.ere not an anm7°r '( A . J. woul.U. havo t old hiw tho.t I 118.d a des ire to holp N'ld t h1d , ill <wing ao l did not i nterfere with the 4llties ot anyb0<~ elae. . •

Q Not evC!"I with l)r. Kor bcl ' o uut i P.:J i .11 . l ea , Lhat inf antG' i1ome '7aS in t he obar~• of ir. Korbel. ·

Q D() you tell this court that you were in that hO'!!e on t hat day ,j tiet t or ~oml!IWlg to do and not in tb.e course of your ..ork ? A. 'Yes, that is ·#hat I wo.o.t to sq.

Q It wac a oort of bobby ot' yours wherJ. 70u had nothing Jfls e to do, •• 1t ? A. This is hOlf 1' was. We were Vf!lr'Y 1n'ereated 1n the welfare ot the foreign workers and it was our polioy in the l/olk8"Uget1 works to s ee that the tomgn workers were f'airl,y oontmtod an4 aatist"ied and it was the use of all our <-1~1.'orta t 'or the f oreign workers. l'hey theillselve e have tal ked about so m&J\Y deaths in ihe ldnderheia in the Be.stern lager. There you have the reaacm why 1 viai ted t he hor11e and told oJ.'f tiie s t aff.

1'BI J IJOO.h WVWN.1.ill: l.>i d you eve1· ~hinlf.t oi' asking tho man ·.mo was 1n obru:';,;e ot • t he holte to ro m t h YQU and investigate tbe oomplaint 'I A. Yes, I tried io oontaot him but he waa a boe.1t . 'fhat i b m~ we aad a ootiforei.oe later on : ttl.a.t wa a sevAt'aJ n.ours al.' t e r 0 .1: .Per~uips iuiout.d i ately af·ter.7&.4'dG.

MAJOR O'RAT'ER1 \tho called taat oon:t'er.-ice ? A. I.

Q wtio madf" out the notes of the meetirut of the oonf er enoe ? A. 1.o notes .. _.. l'!ade.

Q r1ho l'\8.n o out t i"ose doooillents dated lJth J une 191+4, r eference d.ifiOUS31oo about s ters to be ta1001\ e tc 'I • ...'he ... o ore HO iie... to :it:.11' •UJ 11.~;Jor,y- \l'..Ucll J.. rr.Atlo at'terr.ard in ~ of tioe.

Q I s t hat why you dist r ib ut ed t 111.!ll1 rouud. t o about eight people ? A. 'j:hat m.a a custom a t t he ~lkmvage11 worke, to make not es on t he results ot conferences and to s end t hem them to t l1e :orople ooncenned, and 1. t \'las apreOO. a t 'toha t oonnronce who \VOulu bo muld.t•g t iose noteo.

18

(

Q Are t hose noten not m'itton i n t he f or of o. 1'0Ve"lcnt order ? A. Ho.

Q Road pnragraph ono ? A. "All henl t2~y children - about 80 - '7111 be tra~eterred tolhlehen on 14 Jl.D'le Y1hero t oy are t o r emi na. f or the t ime bf' ing" .

Q Is that an order ? A. Noi /

Q It i s t h e decision of t he conference, i s i t ? A. That i a t he reoul t of t he conference; that is th• outcome of what was talked about.

THE JUDGE AUVOOATE: Will you read paragraph 2, t ho first two oentonoes ? A; "Parts one and t hree ot the children's home will be disinfec t ed inr odiatlly; all equipment :nust be disintooted."

Q Ia that an order or a n )te that some one made, that all ecpipment muot be disinf ected ? A. It might just as well read "Bllrr1l0k .1 ono and three will b e diain1'eoted".

Q But it does not read that ft¥• I reads "all equipment rwst be disinfected" and you are a lawyer w1 th a trained nind. Do you write thi ngs down in tho 'from at orders ~en they are onl y notes ot things agreed by peopl e nt a conference ? A. The order t o disinfect t ho barrack roust be t he reaul t of o. contereoce at which one agreea t o dis1nteot the barrack. It you interrupt that at an orc\er then it is correct.

MAJOR DRAPER: ."lw did you sign t hese notes ? A. So as to s horr that they oame trom me.

Q Which w.s only right sinoe you had oalled the oonf'erence, wao it r ot ? A. I need not have called the oonterence. I sent t he reporto• to J<.anager Picon and Dr. Piech would have done nothing else but these 8Mle oroers.

Q Reading that document dated 13 J\mo 1941+, wc>'tl d you not say t hat you m erned. to be a very adtive participant 1n the pol icy ot t his home ? A. Yes, it you call iv intervention very act ive then that 1s correct and I do think that I did interterc 171 th others duties at that time.

Q There are a good MOJ\Y things that have to be done under thoso noteo whi ch you have signed, are there not ? •trst, ~he home is to go to Ruehen, is. that

, correct ? A. You may imae ine the following: there is an epidemic 1n the heme; a c onference has been oalled; during t his oonterenoe agreement is reached as to what has to be done innediatel,y. One does n ot wait for detaileo in order t o go the ordino.ry 'fl8.Y and report to the rnnnager and av111i hio decisi ons, but one tries to hel p i.nl!llediately and during that oonferenot o.11 these measures have been discussed, which should bring about an improv• ment, and I make notes on the result of this conference so that I can make a report on what has been arranged and so as I have t he possi bility ot asking t he chief of t he sooio.l services to see whether ~bng has been done.

Q All of that 1'laS 1n the oourse of your duties for uhi ch you '7ero paied, 1 that right ? A. I f you are of tho opinion t hat I uas pa i d i n ardor to

hel p , yes.

1oiJ Were you o t paid in order to help in these matters ? A. I had a cont' to be the chief of t ho perso el andnnot to hel p other departments.

TUE JUOOE MNOCATE : If' t hi s had been none of your buslness, T/ould not t peopl e you have called to the conference mere or less tell you to go t o hell · and not put your nose i n t heir bus iness ? A.. No, I do not thi lk oo b ecause for t hat t he problem was too s erious .

l 'AJOR DUAPER : lhcn you go t t o this conference you t hen and t here t ol e Korbel m1at you t hought of Sk hi ri, did you not ? A.Yeo, I t mis a exoi ted conteronc e.

Q I put it to you t hnt you t old Korbel to pray i ess an" visit tho h i o t hat right, or \ /ON G t o that otfeot ? A. I t hi nk thn.t Guch ,,

were u oed.. 19

~ You u s ed thc 1, d id you not , .L'yrolt ? A. Yeo.

Q And you told Korb ol hi a hono iroo a diogrnce , d i d you no t , or T.or da t o t ho.t effect ? A. I c rumo t romcMb cr t he 'vords exact ly.

Q That "18.S the meani ng of your \'JOrde , wno it not ? A. I remombor a change had to b e brought about.

Q Di d you io t intimate to Korb el t ha t hi s homo -rms a scandal and dioBl'flOo, or 1'Tords to t hat ~t'fect ? A. Yes ..

Q There was a big quarrel between you and Korbel nt t hat conferenc e , r10.o t hcro not ? A. The tone 1'18.3 not n To:ry trieddly one .

Q There was a r em, is that rieht ? A. Hot a rem.

THE JUIGE AJJVOOATE : Did y ou cay in the st~tement you made t o the t::n[J.ioh ottioer who took it f'rocl you "I kicked u such a rotT about t hi s t owel business against Dr. Korbel tho.t he novor for ga ve rne"? A. Tha t did not rf4or to DtY viei t in Juno but t o oevcral weeks b efor e when I t old Korbel that I had Seal the bath1 1g of sevornl c hildr en in one ba th tub.

Q Is 1 t right that you kicked tq> such a row that he n e\rer f orgav e you ? A. 1 1DUBt r emark on that, that t he i nterpreter there nan not as good o.a here and also the p•ttine of q11esticms TTaS not eJCaet as it is being done hore. • The interpreter had b een n Gernan living in /unerioo, whereas the of'ticer was an Englishman and I v.ras asked i f thh was read in slo17 Imp,liah to me I woul d understanc1 it and I answered in t he positive, and t herefore there can bo several mioWlders tandinga and misinterpretations in . ty stater1ent. I then statoo that there had b e en a oon:Cerencc booause of my viai t to the Sohachtweg i n June, o.nd I meant to say that Dr. Korbel had b een annoyed about -rry b chavi 'ur during t he conference mid that turn.ed out to be that translation.

Col Would you tmderstand tho Enp,l.ish it I r ead 1 t 3l.a11ly t o you ? A. J,ot everything. '

Q \fill you hold ~ your ~a nd 17hon you get to any ward you do not tmderatand when I read.? A. Yea. • Q "I kicked up such a r0f1 about t his t 0\7el business a gainst Dr. Koi·bcl that he never forgave me" . Havo you understood in EneJ.1sh all t . oae words ? A. Yeo.

Q Was .it rend to you at t hat pace or quiokor 11hen t he stat ement r /&S read to you ? A. There is not comparison beon l BO nm7 I kncm the statement in English, and i n t he meantime I hrl.ve atudicd Engl1oh for nine month.1 in tho oarnp.

Q Did you understand what wo.o being read t o you by t h e Enp).is h of 'icer ? A. I waD under the impro:;aion f'lYGel f t 10. t I undorn tood i t .

Q Di d you use 81'\Y expression when you \7cr o t el l i ne t he s t ory !'irot , before 1 t 1'18.S written daml, like "Dr. Korbel neve.L· for f1JJ.Ve oe"? A• Never the wat'd "for give" but t ho.t he uas very annoy ed.

JIA._TOR DRAP}!;Rr What did you state to b e t ho crounds for yolU' di ooa.tisi'aotian with the home to Korbel o.t t ho cont'erence ? A. That I had foWld oontirmcd whtlt Frau Nietbammer had report ed o.nd t hat I had s een many children in dressings, that Siot er Kathe' a explano.tion:l wore not satisfaotary, that it TTaS inooUq>rohens ibl e f'or s ick nnd heal t tw children not t o be soparted, t hat t here Tms a terribol tmorderline ·a o.nd untidiness in the rooMa of the -nursing staff and it Ytno not t o b o e:xpocted for the children to be looked after uell nhen t he otro'f t he.::10el vea could not keep order i n t boir ~m rooms .

Q Di d you compl ain about anythintt cl oo t o hOrbel at t hat conference ? A. 'l'ho.t Sist er Kathe ho.d s to.t ecl thnt l>r. Korbel hl\u not b een t here f or

20

-

a long t ime and t ha t I had t he ir:tpr oazi o . t hat Sister v.at he Tra.G '1i t hout i ni tia t i ve. ,

Tiffi JUDGE ADVOO.ATE: Di d Dr. 1 orl)el deny "Ghe nccusa tion t8A t you paos ed on f'ror.1 Sister Kat he that he hod not been there for a l ont time ? ti . YoG.

Q He did ? A. Yeo.

(At 1300 hours t he court ie tldjourned until 1430 hours)

l.IAJOR DRAPER: got boils. ?

Di d you aok Sister Kathe on t his inspection hOY1 the children A. Yes.

Q That was at the time when you were in the hut with Cristoph Dar ? A. Yeo.

Q What did Sister KatM fJ8Y ? constitution. of tho Wants;

A. She aaid 1 t was caused. by t he go era.1. wenk that i nf'ection was v ery easily pos si ble.

Q Di d she mm\ticn to you t hat they had o. great· nwnber of bui;s in tho barraok8 at nip)lt ? A. Uo.

Q Or that the bugs in the huts bit t he children ? A. lTo.

Q Did you, '.Cyrol t, at t he time know t hat · t here were bugs in t he hut - on this TI.sit ? A. Yes , Sister Kathe said this to .oe on this v1oit.

Q Was that the firstyou knew of bugs in tho barrack ? A. Yes.

Q Did you eYer }lave bugs 6n 8Zl3 of the barracks in the Eut lager ? A. Uo.

Q Not 'flhere the gnmn-up s l ived even ? A. Yes, t he barracks were diainteoted aooordingly every yeo.r.

Q Did Sister Kat he in any way sug rrest that the b ugs had anything to do with the boils ? A. Uo.

Q Did yoo ask her that qµestion ? A. I cannot remember; in. any case I ordered during t he oonterence in the of'tioe of Herr Behrs that the huts be disinf'ested because it appeared to nie t hat this could have been carried out bef'ore that tioe.

Q Aroongst t ho explanations Korbel f!P.Ve you at that oonterenoe did he mention bugs in connecti on with boils ? A. I ca not r emember tho.t now.

Q Was lU\VtbinS said baout bugs causing sickness among the childron at t his oonference ? A. I cannot r cmer.i>er; v e'f'IJ much was aaid a t the time.

Q \f~s it not important t o t ry an<l f i nd ou t what was causing thoso boils , the boil epider!d.o ? A. It was f i r s t t hought to oarry out a compl ete change stra i ght awa:y.

Q \1as the reo.l ptlr'1ose of the move to get away trom· t he air ro.id s or to separate the sick from t he heal t}\y ? A. Aa a l ayman I was of t he opinion at t h e t ime that t he most 1.llpo.rtruit t hing •.ms t o separate the heal tl\Y children f ror.l the oiok ones and I vraa t hi.rJcing of t he second and third buts at the Schaohtwcg. During the oouroe of the conversatim Director Behrs made t he proposal the. t the children be ta.ken to Ruehen which would not be only a out t able pl ace but also because the ol d camp was in great danger trom air raids, ond Dr. Korbel approved ot t hi s , because in Ruehen there was al.ready installed on emergency deportment of the oi ty hoBI>i tol in case it got banbed out . Tho.t seemed to b e t he best thing.

waa anythi n g said at the confor cnc; e ab-:.u t the 8chacht\7eg being too or<mded. f or t h e chilclren ? A. I said dur ing this oonf erenoe t hn. t it appeared to me t hat t he ncco111nodation TmS too close far. the chiJ dr on, aeeiug t hoy were :mfferl.ng troM thi s disea.ae, and 1 could not unders t and 'fthy t h ey were not separated out i n the other huts na well.

21

(J Di d Dr . ·'o\'bcl' s explanatio o at t hin co,1faroncc sat i 3fy you ? A. Jr. orbcl • did not sny vor./ much.

Q You, I sugres~, did oll t he talking, i s t hat rip)lt t A. Yoo, I ,1tui very angry.

Q Hore thnn t hat, were yo11 not lead1n£vthe oonforenoe ? A. I oo.uncd t ho onferenoe t o tako pl ace and I apoko a lot.

Q And y ou were tho oenior reprcaento.tive of t he works at t he c o:1fcrcnc e ? A. ?fo, I was t~aruno rank ao Dr. ;<orbol . .

Q ' as Dr. "or bel 1n a pos1 tion to sa.v t o you "I do not care \mat you Gay; you mind your own bus iness"? A. l'os.

Q Did he a{tree therefore Tri th what you said ? A. Yes, he rms rnthcr touohecl about what I told him about oo• ditino 1n the camp.

Q Did he agree m. th your oOr.Jpl aint s ; that they were j us tified ? A. ?lot in all matters.

Q tn the greater pa.rt ? A. Yeo.

Q Did neither ot you r aaie the Q).lestio if how mony had d i ed up t othe date of that oont'erenc;.,e in the home ? A. I oaru1ot remember that the number of the CJC&Ot nuber ot oas es of death waa mentioned.

I Q Was an approximate nwnber mentioned '? A.no, but I knoo tho.t I sai d in tho

curse of that con!'erenoe, ""hat 'ms the uoe ot expending all thi o etrort and JnOney if it "'9.s oaid in 'the Eastern T10rkers camp "The children arc dy1hg in the children' e hOUle".

'l'IIE J UDGE ADVOOATB1 Was t here any oOl!llent on that observat i on of y ours ? A. Korbel gave some dplanation t.hioh r cannot r enemb er noT7 •

• ~OR DRAPERs Di d he suggest it Tm.O uorth go1ne on spending money, and that he coul d impr ove the situo.tion, no that they Tl'Oul '! not dj.e ? A. Yeo, nob&ly was ot the opinion at t hat time t hat b008.Wle an epidemic had broken out i n the ho:!le that the home -noul.d have t o bo dissolved. '.Chat home existed w d had to be carried on.

Q Di d you have na.rricd families livine in the :Cant l ager ? A. Yon.

Q Liofing in special marr i ed quartero in the East l a ger .> A. Yoe.

Q Did 01\)'body sugges t at t hia oonf er cnoo sdnuing the childrer. bo.c ': to livo nith thell' p arento in the East la3er 'l A. Ho, but Dr. Korbel at t hnt time sai d that the :fact that we had W1 intM t home and that intanta '\'Toro lJrought i n t o this lWme trom outside wao a great diSL\Gter.

Q Beoauoe, I ta.Ice it, they ohould obviouol y ho.vo been \Ii th tboi r parents, i a that right ? A. Ye s. •

Q ''lw did you and t ho wrk e no t oend th«n back to t he po.rents ? A. I have al.ready said in front of this court t hat tho wor'-=s tried to get t heae nother~ repl aced by other peopl e, nnd that thi o o .. pai gn had n o success. Al l t t1coo probl <'Ms ~uld never hnve arisen if i t had only been a rna.tter of ohildron born to mornen employed in t .tc y;orkD.

Q Were you sen l ing all the children t o l ive in tho ~arrie l quarters of uonen uor'·i ng in tlm uor ks ? A • • 10 , i t rma an order that also the '10me.n of t ho

e Volkmia.gen v10rks had t o flet t heir children nf'tor dcl iver.v into the i nfants ' hor.ie.

Q .rho gnv o that order ? A. th.n t r:nn o.n orJ.or ('iv cn by Cnuleiter .Joullol \7hc h rmo pa::1oed on 1Jy the Gnuloi tf".r i Luneburg and t ho Y.roislr i ter nnd enf oroocl by him, b ecauce the Kroiol oi tor had ,or30·1nl 1. vested hir.iaol f pormiloaion f or ohlJ dren to be taken out of thlo home. That l a to sa.v ho oo.u d [,iV"' por "li::cion

22

'

for a ohild to b e tahiu o l t oi' ~h:o home.

Q It 'ro.s obviouszy n hw:l9Jl t hine to <lo, nna i t not, to retur.i1 yound children to t heir parents ? A. Yes , thnt T'ltls tho rcanon 1'1i\Y we said we "70uld '"'e wo tld place at t he disposal of ngrioul ture, r opl ncementa for thooo mothers who were worki ng in agrtoallure nnd having chil dren in our home becnuoe we did not think this wao human. Th.tlt wan the ronson why I made an exc eption for instance in t be ca.so of lfina.

Q The works then :found t hemselves ho.vine to carry out an inhUJMn ordor ? A. The works were induty bOlmd to O~J out the ordor of t he gaulei t cr

Q o.s t he order o:f the Gaulei ter inhuman ? A. I t alweys appeared t o me that this step, the spparation of t he child .fron the mother 'ms a step which would never have been carried out by \18 in t he Eastern oamp.

Q Did Dr. Korbel say at this oo··.f or enoe t hat t ho iae~el'!\ • b' ware beinr.; made to work too hard and too l ate during their pregnancy ? A. Yes.

Q And that they had to return to work too soon after delivery ? A. He did mention that tho labour exchange was al~ ringing up and d emanding that the r1others be returned. . .

Q These women rea:LJ;y were in Germany for TTOr k and not for having children, is that right ? A. Uo, in our Eantern camp, as I have point ed out botore, we gave the opportunity to (!!Very lbssian man and f!l'lory lblssian l'TOman who wanted to marry, nnd when Ruosan W1mo.rri cd women bcorune pregnant '7e sa";'l to it 1ihat they were maITied to the mnn i n queotim.

. \

Q 1.rha t was forbidden in tho r oot of Germany 1 \'18.a i t not ? A. I do no t kna;r -whether 1\ TlaB forb idden but I knO\'r t hat i t vm.s not much liked.

Q And therefore the Volkswagen wor ko wei $ oarrying out a practice different from the rest ot Germany in thi s matt er ? A. I c annot say hothor the various other concerns tried t o solve t he probl~ in the same WfJ¥ ao we did.

Q Di d the photographs t hat got tnken of the b:lbies to.ke place in the Ve.at lager or in the Sohaohtweg ? A. In tho Ro.ot oarop and at the Schaohtweg.

Q At the Schachtweg , T/8.S i t betor e this conference 1n Bohr's ottioe ? A. Either immediately bef or e that or o.1'tor i t . What started t he photos being ta.ken was iey visit.

Q Your visit in the East lagor ? A. ?lo, the r eason why tho photon were trucen in the Fa.stern camp 178.S that t ho r atio 1 scalec wore to bo i nor eaued.

Q rni.t did the children look l i ke in the photographs ot the Eaotorn Lager ? A. I oannot remember these photogrpo.hs · talcen in the Eastern camp any more but I do JmOTT that apooio.1 oases who ,evi dently ohowoo t hat the rations had to be increased were selectoo f or t hese photographs.

Q Di d you s ee the photographs ? 11 . I cannot rememb~ t hat.

' Wa s i t not importan tin yo1u· waor':: ? A. I had given orders to do t his ard mt I kne\T that the:Jo photo~aphs n.s well a a a covering l etter were sent in to various authorities and I laum that tho weight and age of the children was

; marked dorm on t he photographs.

\

Q And you do not r e"1c ~ber uhot hcr you so.\t t ho photographs ? A. o , I oo.nnot r coem­ber t hat.

\: >o you remember whct hor y ou sav tho photogrpnhs tat:en in t he Schacht,.,.._~ ? A. es .

Q Yfl'l..at did the childrorl 1 ol: 1 1 cc in t hoof" '? A. The llU dren l o?kcd vory l?nd

Q Toll uo uhn t t hey l ol:cd l iko i n doto.il ? ' t . 'l'ho children r1or c Vf!!ry okinny an 1 t .ooe children wore specially phot ogrnphed who uerc: ouffcr1 nr fro opcoiull,y seriouc.l bolls .

23

Q About ho1T rrnny boils di <l you sec i n tho photogrnphn of any ono chil d ? A. I r e 'T'ebcr t he phot oei·nph of 0110 child · there tho 1Joil s wor e on i J.;o foo t , 1 ts bod.y nnd its hands; thoy v1er e small tumour-like t :1intJa and they wore spr ead out almost like a skin di sease, but not quite ao much and T r eoonhcr another photograph -rlhere a ohild had on<~ largru.• boil on i to hca.d; i t \ Jl\:J

about ns lnrge as a fingo1· nail of a gt·own up person.

Q You mus t have krmn v er y woll what tho condition~ YTore thP.n i n tho hor.1o, Tyrolt ? A. When J. saw t h C' pl ot or,rnph after t he conference, I hacl n · t seen the c hildren rqyself anu had 3iv cn orders t hat t hose photos b e takon , I could decide the measures decided on \Tere very necessary.

Q Wl\v did you' give 01'dera for t he photogra phs t o b e taken ? A. To b e in t he position to have documentary proof that 1 t was absolute~ neoensaz:-1 that t he au thorities did oooetbinr.; about t hio.

Q \7er o you aoting in the cours·e of your dutioo Tlhm you gave t l'oac orders ? A. Jlo , but I wanted proof Tri.th ror ar d to the rona.ging director and Dr . Korbel .

object TUB JUDGB AlJVOO/ITK: \fao t he i8Jr or aonding t hcac phot ogro.phe t o got inor eased

rations for the chir dren ? A. I s hond t heae photogn.pho myself t o tho .Kreislei ter at that time ond tried again to get t he childl·en more rations but t ha. t was inpoasible beoaURo TTe wero already r eceiving the 38llle ration scale as German children were. I showod t hese photos to Dr. P i eoh, iba managing director, to prove to him the neoeosi ty of br i nni ne about a chanc e.

Q At the time you got the i>hotogro.pho ta'cen had any one in tlie Sohaohtrrcg no.i d that the children were ntt aetting enough t o eat ? Ii. no.

Q Had Dr. Korbel t ol d you the children wore not getting e..11ouv)l to oat ? A. I,o.

Q Wl\.v -di d you send in an 8Pr>lioo.tion t or hi gher r ati ons if noboc\Y Tms tolling you that the children wero not getti ng enough to eat ? A. Because I tried to help in 90roe Ui8Jlner and I was pu:iJzled myself hoTT this could have oome about.

Q Would you expect a nurao i n oh.nrge of' a hoile or a doctor looking aftor 1 t to tell you it one of the r easono of the children's illnes s wao thn.t they were under-nourished ? A. Jlo, but on the photographs the i mpresaion that they gave wao such t }}a t i t couln be thought that :food would b e abl e t o help i n t hi n quest ion.

Q That is not an anmrer to my question at all. · You had a trai ned doctor in oharge or t his children' s home nnd a tra.i t• od Gcl'r.lall Sister in· oh.urge of i 't, ia that right ? A. Yes, and a lruosi an dootor.

Q Had aey of theae peopl e augpeeted to yau t h.l\t t h e cnuso of t he ohildren' s Ulneos wa~ t r1at thoy vtcre b l!ing under-norishe<l and had no t enough .. food ' ? A. Mo , TThen I visi ted the homo I aoked whether not enou3h t'ood was being supplied Md they said there was no lack of food.

Q I t uas a diahoneot a1,1 lioat i.on to ao : for turthm.· 1'ood i f' t hoy wore get t ine enough, or did you not believe t he , when they told you t here l'~S no lack of food ? A. 1.0, but when the oon:fercnoe took pl ace with t he K.roialei ter it all did resu.l t in t ho end in tho food quc ntion b ecau::;o the Y..reial ei tor said that the Gaulciter' s ordero aG t ? t ho establishment of the home could n? t be r ovorsed.

Q I do not t:-ilow TThether you t hink t hat is an an ST7er t o iy queoti an but I do !Wt consider i t to b e ? • I \70U,.d like to be believed.

~ I D.S red you t hio. llo one i rl tho ho; 18 who h.ac.l experience of :lcali fl \Ii t thot'O ohildrcn told you t hat thor o T1Q5 a shorta r,c or r od, i n fo.ct, quite t he reverse t hey had tol d you there m>.3 pl ent y of f'ood an<l yet you :mbmi t ted appl ioati on.o :..un-,or tcd by photogr o.p hG nskin1; f or further ration: .. for t heao children. 1 um w p,gcotinn t o yon t i at ei th,.r t h!lt uas u di ohonest a.ppl ication or ol oo yo1.;. hnd no b elief i t w·w.t you \/ere t old by the p eopl e rimn1l\P, t he hor o. Ia t here 011y other e q,10110.t io 1 of why yo t sho Jl d oeJld a " a .,l ioa t. i 1 .

f or incr~'\:icd. r nt 1ono '"' •~ you ho.cl oer told t nt the children 11n.l .1.>l cnt-y ox" . 24

, waw toocl ? A. It/11\Y wish wh«l I ordered the children to be photographed t hat I abould be 1n poaseaaion ot a doownent that could prove in what s tate the children were and I showed thue photographs t o the managing direcW, Dr. Piech, and I had theae photographs shown to Dr. Kabbel, and I ahond them to the Kreialei tar. It waa i n no ~ an eotimat ion tar the Volkna.gen works but it was a horrible piotioral doou11ent. I wanted to force a change by this so that nob~ oould say atterwarda 1 t was not ao bad.

Q What obange d1d you want to entaree; the change of rations of the closing down of the home ? A. Aa I so.id before we were detini tely very unhappy about t his aituattcm in the home and it was lllY wish to bring about some radical change.

Q What kind ot change? /.. I have alr~ asked you that; a change in the ratlana or a obange in the home ? >.. I told Dr. Piech, the Kreialeiter and Dr. Korbel Mlat aomething radical would have to be done, that all our efforts were in Ta1n to getmothera to ata_y and exchange them tor other moth8l"8, that your ettarta were in Ta1n to get rra1ned etatt and there would have to be a ohmlge. You 111at undentand that a etriot order by the Rei.oh Government, entoroed by the Geuleiter, oold not be etteoted by Tarious work organisations , al though t hey bad certain pawera.

MAJOR DBAPBR1 That doea not Mem to have stopped Dr. Porsohe trom getting special n.Uone t'rom Hitler tor hia toreisi worJcera, doea it ? A.The increase ot the ratana tor the Baateni worken ._. montba before that, and the inoreaae ot atiana tor prillOIDel"B ot war waa yean before that.

Q And it was the reault ot a visit by Porsche to Hitler, ._. it not? A. With refer910e to the raising ot the rat1ana tor the prieonera of 'RI', yes.

Q So the Geulei ter and .l'relalel ter could --~ be over-riddsi when Poraohe, the hM4 ot the Volkswagen works, went to Hi tJ.er, could it ? A. Profeaaor Panohe w.e at that tiM ~ever in the taotory.

Q He w.a head ot the worka, wu he not ? A. No, in 1944 be waa not bead ot the worts. He -.. one ot the three on the board ot Directora. Direotor ot the works and manaping director waa Dr. Piech at that time.

THI JU.DQB ADVOCATE& Tyrolt, w_.e tboae pbotographa aent to the authorities wlth a request that an order about 110there being taken ~ trom the children mould be rnoted mo w1 th the request tbat . tur1iber rationa ahould be prorlded. tor the ohi lclren ? A. I ahowd thue photogrwqma to Dr. Piech and Dr. Piech aid 110111ething would have to be undm'M.ten with the Xreialeiter. I spoke to the Krelalei ter, who ,.. the man who "' t 11e order of the Gaulei ter had brought about the inatitution ot the ohildren' • bome in the lreia. I ahowed him these pbotograpba and uted tlilat a radioal change be oarrted out with regard t othia heme.

Q You are telling rne about a radical change. I want you to tell me wmther it ._. a obange ot ration• or change in the policy ot keeping mothers ~ from the children ? A. I said to the Kreialeiters "Look here, Kreialeiter, We la the remJ. t ot the home. SOiie r&dioal oblnge will have to be undertaken. Can you not go to the ~eiter and talk to him about it?".

Q Did you auggeet what t he tOll'll ot the change abould be ? A. Yea, I said to the Kreislei ter at the time, the beat thing would be to dissolve the home but I want to point out that at t hat time it appeared to me that the renaon wu not that tb8ylaoke4 ft.'Oth.-a milk but beoaua& ot the epidead.o ot boils.

Q Did you hear on e ot the other w1 tneaeee, I cannot remember whether it ..a Bar or Praetoriua, wh9l e909.-examined b7 one ot the defending ooimael, tell the oourt that the photographs were sent up tor the purpose of getting extra rations t or the babies ? A. That was when the children were photographed in the Eastern workers camp.

Q Th~ were eent up from the Baa tern workers ~ to get add1 tional rationa, wwe they not ? A. Yea.

MAJOR DRAP.Blb That was in the evidenoe of ~riatoph Bar.

25 \

THE JUOOB ADVOOATE: There naust have been some pretty t hin children 1n the Ba.stern work.-a <*lip tor those pbotogre.pha to have any propaganda value, IJllSt

there not ? A. I oannot say what the children looked like in the Sastom workel"ll oanp but it 1'a8 q(iite clear tram the beginning th&t t hese rations ordered by the Reioh GoYemment tor the intants ot foreign workers were tar too little, but I 1.;hin al.80 at that time children were expected who were sent to that oamp because when zr. Pieoh agreed that the children trom t he Kl"eis llhould alao be taken into this home we not only received t hose children born after that cl&te by also prier to that date.

MAJOR lliAPER1 What did Dr. Piech ~when you showed him the photogt"apha ? A. Dr. Piech was shocked.

Q Wu he &ng17 w1 th yo. tor doing aomething that n.a not your concern ? A. Not with•, no.

Q D14 ti• tell you you were not attding to your own proper tunotion ? A. No, he orderel Dr'. Korbel to oome and see h1a. 1

Q Who m4e the deoi•ion that the heme abould go to Rueben, at the oont•ence? A. All the membera ot the oonterenoe aa I pointed out bef'oro agreed it would be beat to take the children to Rueben.

Q At the end ot the oont'erenoe it was al.r~ agreed, was it• that the children should go t o a&ehm ? A. The b•t poaaible solution wu found, UM!. wen the dootor• s atti 1aJde waa Uked abut this and he said he agreed mu tar as I IW*llber Dr. Korbel, Director Behr&, Bar went out to see the place at lllehm. I do not know whether Dr. Korbel talked to Dr. Piech about this round this time, but I inf'ol'lled Dr'. Pieoh that the ohlldren' a home was to be mewed to Jlaehen and he agreed to 11\Y' aigges tion.

Q Had you by that time been out and seen that it was a fit and proper plaoe tor ob1l.c1nn ? A. No, not I penonal.17. Herr B+ set out u ~ t.puv.

Q He wu Htrr Debra then, not Direotor Debra,~ he ? A. Y•.

Q He -.. not IM4e Director B*'8 until Ootober 191tlt., waa be ? A. I think he ._. granted the title ot Director on a let Ootober 1944.

Q ·u a l'MUl.' ot the r.-organiatian ot the d.epe.rtltents, waa it not ? A. Ko, but the tarma tian oonoeznecl aa tlniahed in the middle ot 19ltlt. and a«eral ct.oisicms nre taken out ot thie.

_, Q The re-orpnieation did not oome into etfect until October 1944, did 1 t ?

A. Jio, it beoame etteotiTe before that.

Q Had the arn1ng letter ot the r .. organiaation oome ou t in September 1944 -the letter setting out the details ot the 1'9-organisation ? A. An inatruotion f'rom the Min mnag-.nt was g1Ten out.

/

Q In Sep"91ber 1944 ? A. I ca.not r8Dember the date; I said in the middle ot Ultlt.. I ml.y r•ember that I diaouased thia tint order lfh i ob •s 1aaued by the aa1n -.nagemcmt regarding t he tormatian ot oonoems inthe ottl oe ot Direotor J~. I oannot remember exactly when 1 t was but I remember it was in Jul.7.

Q waa it not until October that t he re-organisation w.a put into f'u.11 operation ~· A. No, it waa before. ·

Q Did B4'bre get made a direotor when he got the Wirtachatta appointment lea4erllh1p position ? A. Yea.

Q That waa in Ootober ? A. I do not know the date exactly.

Q Did you amd Bebrs out to inapeot the barracks at Rueben betore the oh~ldren arrived ? A. It was agreed that Director Behra should organise lruehen with the help ot the weltll.l"e depart11ent and ~t was the reason why he went out there with Ill". Korbel.

Q Had you a hand in the agreement that he aould go out ? A. ?fo.

26

Q Do 10u 88\r t hat trom the oontereno e you had not hing further to do wit h t he home either at \foltsburg or a t Ruehon ? A. No I did not sa.y t hat.

Q Atter you signed the notes of the oont'erencc, was t hat t he last thi ng you did ? A. Jfo.

Q What else did you do atterards ? A. A.a I sai d before, I had been to Ruehen betore it was finished and tha t I had onaoc gooe ou t by 11\Y&elt ilruediately atter the home had been completed and that I had taken out Sister Margaretta tl'om the hospital onoe and that I had been t here with the l'.reial.eiter.

Q Yould it be right to ~ that Debra' only tu.notion with lhlehen was t he l>arrltoJcs arid the t ood ? A. That i s what I stated in rv atatementabut when I made this statement I wae not aware of the taat that Director BebN bad given out the order dated 'Z7/12, aa.rt.ng a new department, that ot publio health, w.a agreed, and I &:> not k:naw what agi-eements were reached b~

Q Behrs and Dr. Korbel about it.

Q 1'be IDCJllthly reports that were made out by Siat.- El.la; who received those 'I? A. Direotor Bebra.

Q In the Sohaohtweg ? A. I ellpeot, Direotor Behrs too.

Q Did you wer receive ~ monthly reports trorn Sister Ella trom the home at any time ? A. Jfo.

Q Did JOU wer aee them ? A. I cannot quite aaotly answer thia queatlon; I believe tat I once aw the annual report.

Q l'or the year 19lt4 ? A. Yea.

Q Did you notice bow mny deaths it aa1c1 in that r9J>0rt tar the y..r 1944 ? A. Tee, I cannot remember the number ot the cleatha and I oannot ~ wheth_. it i• the llUle u on t he <»py ot the c!ooument natrbetore the court.

Q Yaa there a oonterenoe w1. t h Dr. Poraohe at Ohriatmaa 19"4. at l!oraq 'I A. Yes.

Q Were you prescit ? A. There ftll"e •9VC'&l oonterenoea at that tiMJ amor>.g11t o-... t here was a very l arge oonterence with 50 to 6o persons present; it waa a d111ausa1anabout oanoern matters.

Q Did Proteasor Pol'llOhe ask a~tbia oontermo• why ao many obildre, had di.a in 19a.4 ? A. I believe Dr. Korbel started this problem at a oonterenoe about oonoern ~tters.

'Q Did Dr. Poraohe ask Dr. Jtorbel at this oon1'crS10e tor an explanation ot 'he number or deaths ? A. I thinlc not. Th!.s matter was not dimasaed in publioll during the meeting . It •s not brought out in the oour•e ot the cmference but I do not know.

Q Waa it aalced in private oonveraation with Porsche afterwards $ A. I w.a not present, I oannot remember.

POl'llChe ~ D1d Proteseor/aak 10u any questions about t he death rate in the home tor 1944 ?

A. No, I did not speak t o Professor Poraohe about it; I only spoke to Dr. Piech.

Q Did he ask you t or an explanation ? A. Yea, Ihave discussed tbi a probl• w1. th Ill". Piech.

Q At t his C<llt'erenoe a t Chris t mu 19lt4 were you aaked by either Pieoh or Poreohe about t he death rate " A. Ho .

Q Di d you hear Korbel being asked by either of t hose two men ? A. I did no t hear it fl\YSe!t.

Q You heard i t was ask ed f'ron oomebod3 eloe, did you ? .A . I di d hear t hat in one ot these conferences on oonoern matters th* matter was brought up • .

27

Q Did DI". Piech receive monthly reports s howing t he death rate trom the home ? A• I do not know but I think ao all the s ame because 1 t was Behrs' r ospon.si bili ty to report this affair to Dr. Pieoh.

Q Did you al so hear Korbel nade a speech to t he assembled directors as t o wh~ tho children were dying ? A. ?10, I cannot remember t 11a t; I emphaaise there were meveral oonterenoes. This oonterenoe on ooncem matters lasted tor several dqa and the 1W1&.ging direotors ot the various oonoema and all t he bee4a of departments were at thia oonterence, am all problems ,,... diaouased which became acute at that ti.Ile in German industry.

Q And did that include the Jcinderheim at Rueben ? A. I said before that I aaaumed that Dr. Korbel reported about it.

Q Did you know when you had your conference in Behra' of'tioe what had been the tormer use ot these barraoka at 1'aeh.-i ? A. I knew that tti.N bad been a net oamp 1n•talled there betore t or Eastern WOJ1cer'8.

Q Are you aatisfl.ed ta.at it waa a tit place 'I A. Yes, a&ehen appeared to me a suitable place.

Q .After you had made a visit to it yourself ? A. Yea, tbSl al.so.

Q What condition were the barraoks in when you saw them an thi s inspection at Ruehen ? A. When I was out there with Kuhbmm the hut• were all but reaq and when I Yia1 ted the home tor the firet ti.me atter 1 t bad been finished 1 t made an emellent imprees t.an.

Q Did you enquire how maiv 41s1nteotions had been carried out before the children arrived, while the home .a empty ? A. Yes .

Q How -iv d1d they tell you? A. On two ooou1.ona, and I was told that tn that barrack wbioh the court ln111>eotecl, on t hia ln9peo'\ion, that a ditoh w.a made round it ao that the gas whioh w.s siployed in the disinfection also oame trom below.

Q l7ere atepa taken later to oheck up that bugs had not returned to the barracks ? A. During ntr viBita I heard nothing about insect• again and I n...- aaw any lnMot IJ\YBelf, eit her 1.n the l'OOIJIB, or on the becla or any trace on the ohil4ren.

Q What•• the latest date you visited Rueben aa a ba.e ? A. It was on Christmas EYe.

Q Waa that when you went to see your gooae t A. Thia gooae w.a no longer at RUeben at Chrlatmae BYe.

Q It had been removed to be killed, I auppoae, by then ? A. Yea, it bad been' collected betore.

Q Had yo\i ooee out on severa1 previous oooaaiona to the home to aee that gooae; had you been out there at all to see the goose ? A. No.

Q Di d you enr talk to Siater Ella in the home att .. ahe oame back from her aicJm•a 1n Auguat ot 1944 ,+ A. Yes . ,..

Q Did you talk to her abou t tho number of children who were dyins and t he general death rate ? A. Yea.

Q Did you say t o her " 1ell, I guess you are j elpi ng them too" or words t o that e:ff eot 'I A. H'o.

Q So it Sister Ella says that s he is tell ing an untbuth, is who ? A. If I did eoy anything, and I oannot · r emember tl\Y exact works, then 1 t muat have beeri aald in the way that in apite ot the taot that we had built up a nn home we had not "°hieved anythinR at oll. I would never allow Jl\YSelt t o suspect ;, Sister h'lla of helping · t he children to die. She waa r.iuoh too well rogarded in the taotocy tor that, and I do not think that I used t hese word.a.

Q So Sister El.la cmst be mistaken ? A. M.dentl.y. r

28

\.

Q Did you know that Sister Kathe in August o.nd ctmards was pregnant ? A. Yea.

Q Did you know that 'li ster Liesel had a certain disease ? A. No, I only got to know Sister Lieael just now when being a?Teated and I cannot r emember Sister Liesel at 8.11.

Q Did you have talks with Korbel about conditions at t he home at ~eben trom August onwards ? A. When we oocaei onally met in t he factory I did talk to Dr. Korbel about Rueben and when I Had been out in Jbehen I al.'"'1'S took the opnorilu\1 ty to talk to Dr. rorb8l about a.tehen , just es I talked to Dr. Dehre and al.ao Dr. Piech.

Q I aaggest that the relationship was that you were the superi or of Debra and the aubordinate ot Piech, i s t hat right ? A. No.

Q Do you say that you and Behrs were equal in authority trom m1d sumner 1944 ormardl A. Aa tar as rank was concerned I 111&8 eYen b elow Behra because he was manAging director and I waa only head ot the personnel department in the works and. 9P90ialiat in concern mat-..

Q Is it right that you were able to give Behrs orders at all ti.mes lmtil t r.e tad ? A. No, it I 1Jl.Te him orden this was dclle through Dr.Piech or with the knowledge of Dr. Pieoh.

Q l>id it ner geto to yoo. knowledge that the death rates in Ruehon got ve...-y bad '8 Rlleha in August 1944 ? A. ?lo.

Q Whmi you came out on th•e visits to a.tehen did you go throught the rooms looking at the babies ? .A. Yes.

Q Aa late as Cbrlatmaa 191t4 ? A. I do not know whether I did look at the ohildreu at Obriatma 1944 but I think I can remember I was in the hut with the ol4a- ohildrcm but I oannot remmbt't'r who conducted me roun4 that tbae.

Q Did you go into the rooms where the ana.ller children 1"!l"e? A.Not at Cbriatme, no.

Q ~ waa that ? A. I was there towarda eYening and I wu just paaaing en "'° ~ to Oebiatelde and I just peeped in to enquire whether the preparations made tor Christmas at the factory bad also b een carried out at Jbehen.

Q You had time to see the older children but not the younger onoa ? A. I wish toempbaaiae that this bane did not oooie within the sphere ot my dutiea and one oan aee tram the Easteni workers oamp how mob I did fer the children.

THB JUDGE ADVOOATEa Will you answer the question; it was a straight torward onf/f A. I looked at the older children.

Q Youclid not bave enough time to look at the younger chi]4ren ?i A. I •inly talked to the foreign atatt.

MAJOR DRAPBlh Would it not have bee11 a s:>od opportunity to t'ind out haw t hings were and tell Dr. Pieoh ? A. I apoh to t he ataf'f and they did not oomplain to me in any way.

Q I suggest JOU P*t yoo.r nose in the am&ll ohUdren' s room and tho smell waa ao bad you came out ? .A.. That is not true.

Q You 11:ade no enquiry how things were except o.bout Chri3t "'lns r ations on that VS..it? A. Mo.

Q Do yru not think the children' a lives WW'e more important than the Cbriatmu rations? A. It was ntn known to me that there was such a mortality rate in the home. ·

Q It woul d have been very etaJSy to find out on that visit, would it not ? A. As I said bot ore this children' a home had nothing to do w1 th uiy aphtre of duty. I was on my way to Oebietelde and I felt the dos ire t o find out whether the

29

Christa.a preparations were being oarried out in Rueben in the sarow way as in the f"notory. J spoke to the Cer1' n1l otatt and German siatero and also empl oyees.

THE JUDGL: ADV001TE: Did you t hi · con.di t ions at Ruehon wer e satis factory when you were there on Christmas ~e ? A. I wan no t under the impression that arwthing speoial wns wrong in ~ehen.

Q Wl\Y did you ask Dr . Wilke to go and ace Ruehan ialnediatezy after the new year 1945 it nothing wns wrong a t Christmas ? A. Beoau:Je meanwhile the mortal.1 ty rate had oome to my knowledge.

Q Between Christmas Eve and New Year ? A. Yes. I

Q "ho told you ? A. That waa 1n a report trom a document; I onnnot r emember exactly.

MAJOR DRAPBlh Did that have anythihg to do with ~his Christmas o~erenoe at Morae ? A. A.a tar as I r emember this oonferenoe at Jlorse an conoern catters W'lS a 1 i ttle l ater.

Q Were you ve17 interested in the weltare ot these Baatern children at all times ? A. I alwa;ra did what I could tor the welfare ot the Eastern workers . The publio heal th and the intents' he>11e ~ not my duty. Where I could help I did help.

Q Would yoo. have been very shocked had you known that a great number -.a ~g ? A. I was . V817 ahooked when I heard l t.

Q At Christmas 1944 ? A. I said betore it must have been slightly later. I ounnot remember the exact time.

Q Con you remsaber the exact number t A. No.

Q Can i 1: baTe made muoh ot an impression on, this death rate, then ? A. An impression, yea, natural~.

Q But not enough to remember the number ? A. --

THE JUDGE AD'lOOATBs Between the time you went on Christiaa Bve, when you say nothing unuaual was reported to you aa bet ng wrong, and the time Dr. \f ilke went on he" "gi.•i t, bad you been back to lllehen ? &. No.

Q Whan you sent for Dr. Wilke di d you think everything was being done tor the ohUc1rsi at Rueben that oould be done ? A.I knew that Dr. Piech 'RB nil ~ormed about this and I lmew also it waD ft\Y duty to report to Dr. Pieoh. I was just trying to do what I oould to jel p matters. That is~ I oontaotecl the C'.aulei ter.

Q When you asked Frou Wilke to go did you think t here was anytbing not being done tar these ohilc!ren that ahou4 have been done for them ? A. Yea.

Q What ? A. I t hought the home would have to be dissolved because the mortality had gone up again to euoh an extflllt.

' Q Di d you B63 when you gave evidenc e in answer t o your own oounael, it •• a question I aalced: "Dr. Wilke disappointed me because she said mor e was being done tor the infants than c ould be done t or German children at that time" ? A. Yes.

Q You were staggered when ahe said that ? A. Yes.

Q Atter what you had seen wu going on 1n the homo ? A. No, I did not see ~bing in the home that ahooked 1ne but I saw tho number giTm 1n the report.

Q And the s ize of that death rate •s so striki l'lB to you that you realised that the children could not be being treated as they.,.. would be 1n a German ohilclren' s home,ie t hat right ? A. I was oompl.etely pusmled.

M .TOR DRAPER: Did you hear t he evidenoo of Hilda LaDrner in t his court ? A. Yes .

Q Did you hear what she aaid about t he children' a home lhe wor ked in before she oame to Wolf'sburg ? l\ . Yes .

I Q Was that the girl who you thought was 1ne%l)er1enoed and too young for the job ? A.. That she was too yoond and inexperienced to to.ke on t hi a job .

Q vroa the.t your improosion ? A. Yes, I could not pass judgment on her qun.11t'i-oations as a nurse. When sho oamo to see me I sent her t o Dr. Korbel, the the 110rks cedioal dopartmcn t, where it w.n decided whether she was suited or not.

THE JUDGE AD'V'CX::M Es Where it is you auggest that he said that.

llAJOR DRAPER: I thought it was said that his impression was that it was a mistake tar SOlleb~ so young to be in ao responsibl e a position. That ia wl\)I her oomplainta were not listened w.

THE JUDGE ADVOO.AT'Es Did be say 11bat in chiet.

MAJOR DRAPER 1 I do not think he eaid tba t 1n chief'.

THR JUDGE .AJNOOATE: I do not think it was a~tributed to t his witneM. I think it ie in the statement of SS.at.- Kathe,

MAJOR DRAPER& I will put the queetion in another wy. ( to the w1 tneaa) a Did pi 1'ersonally tNer hear the complaints trom Sister Hilda ? A. Yes.

Q What did she tell you•• wrong ? A. The oompla!nts which Hilcla Lalner made were in the first place about her relationship to the aietera in charge of her and ahe alao Mid in what ahe told me that ahe thought that the Germn aiat_.. oould not oa:rry out orders properly with a foreign s'Wt' and that the foreign nurses and the mothera etc. were stealing linen and supplies and reduoing

stocks.

Q Did ahe tell you about the oondi tion of the children ? A. No, jus t about the care of the children. She •id that aeYeral children were being bath.O. in the ume water and this lctnd of thing.

THE JUDGE ADVOO.A!rnt Are you ta.ldng n ow about hc.r complaints about !blehen ?

A. No, about the Sohaohtweg.

MAJOR DRAPRRt lfian. did she make these complaints; oan you remember a.bat the month ? A. n J\Ule.

Q Was it betore your vis1 t w1 th Cristoph Bar or afterwards I A. It must have been a.tter that.

Q Did you then realioe that your oonterence had not been TtJJ:'Y suooesst'ul ,in eome parts ? A. I oannot -:y that Hil4a I__,. said that atter June 13th children were still being bathed in that ft3• What I mean •a that Hilda Lamner told me a.rt.-wards when I viai ted her and when she told me about the oausea1 ot the epidemic. The e1>idem10 died down imDediately.

Q YTars this conversation w1 th Sister Hilda after your vial t or before ? A. Atter the viai t, in the home where I lived.

( At l(,oo hours the court is adjourned until 1630 hours.)

MAJOR DRAPRR: :UO you r ememb er sayin,g in your statement to the British offl.oer worda as tollon: "I have no idea that so ceny children died thC"e. I beli8V'ed that tbingS were going well", and t hat rfltfJrS to Rueben; is that troe? A. It I said that in 11\Y sta tement at that time I could not remember at t l at

time.

Q But a litt l e after Chriatmass 1944 were yoo not i n po¥eso1on of the to.ctn 0 1' t he total deaths ? A. I co.nnot remember t he exact date or ti.me at wbltsb I was informed about this. I do not wish t o be suspected of having to14

31

\.

an untruth.

Q Your r snark in your stntooo..1t : "I hrw e lo i J.ea th.o.t so tn.'.l..'\V ch1ldre.""l died t ilere", rmen \'185 that meant t.o r efor t o ? A. On the whole.

Q But on the whole yau did. kno\1 h O\"t lllD.lVf died becnuae it car:ie out i n that o.nnu.ll roport; i a th·tt not oorrcot ? A. I <lo not know whether I read thi s , I oaimot r ez:.icruber it; I hnvo OOJPhaoiacd t his b cforo. I i' one looks through all the roports a.nd a tatomento taken in thia oasc one besin.s t o rsncrnbcr lots of thingG that ono could ;,wt r cnembQr bef oro; especi all y if one has bee'\ arrested for several 1:11)nths on top of t hat.

Q A CJlestion suoh as whether yoo. knew at the time hm'T ma.t\Y ohildron had died is not the type 01: thing you ttoul d mo.l:e a mi :JtaJ:o about, i s 1 t '? A. Yea, I just did not r emember at that time.

Q Do you toll this court t hat you thought you never knew that a lot ot ohU4reo had died in t he home ? A. I "1sh to point out again t hat at aome t111e, I cannot say the exact time, I had read about this high mort •llty rate; that 11118t have bean sometitte at the Sld ot 19lt4 or the beginning of l9Z.5. I do not know whether I read thi a figure and it certainly was not 1n the r eports wbiob have been placed in tron t of the oourt.

TJIE JUOOE ADVOCATEi Do you ranember t he figure at all; does any f'igure stiok in your mind that you rerac<;lber ? A. No, I only bow that I did talk to Dr. Piech about t hoao :no.ttoro ooc;aoional'.13 and it Ol83' be possible that he gave me a numb•.

Q But you do not rooaember tho number at nll ? A. No.

Q I~o idea at all ? A. That number 254 -:thich is mentioned i n the annual report by :liater lUla -- tlda c rurt .. ill appreioate that at some time there waa a uiaouaaion about the high mortality rate and 1!' you mr ask me wbeiner I knew the number of tho mortality then t can m1.y ney exao~ that some time about the turn of t he year 19W4.5 somebody o1 thcr told me or I loamed from some d.oowullt that this mortality rat e was very lll.~1.

Q But not t he u:act f igure ? A. Uo.

UAJOR DRAPlilli Thel'€torc you r statement "I did not lmow so many children died there" is not tho truth ? A. I do want t o l!lt\V that t his was not true. 't1l'l&.t I want t o point out i o that I did not state t hings that were not true; I just did not remember them at that time.

Q It the nursen ever ~mnted ~rthing extra t or t he home at the Schaohtweg, did t hoy ask you lor it t A. Yea, the sisters did perhaps tll1"6 to me u a lut reaort because they saw that I .a al~a trying to do r:ry best, but they did not keep that ca.-1taot up with me cont inually> but only when I visited the camp to see how thing a were, t hen they tol d me abo~t their various demanda and wishes.

Q Tl!ey came to yoo. wen they could ~et no aat sifaotion trom an.ybody el.ae, ia that it ? A. ~' y f) 1 -hunt. ~.il.I me what thing a you ore referring t o.

Q f.xtra bedJ.ing, olothing, blankets, diapers, bottles , beda ? A. When I oame to the boaae I ":Aced whether anything new had appeared, whether they ha4 :. MY wishes or whet her they req.iirod any a.s::i1stance and then they told me in what we, the works ir.anagenlent, could o.osiat thorn. I noted it down and then I informed the oanpetent autboritiea in the works aa t o what had-"to be mpplied. \!~ instance , if a bath tub was needed t hen this bo.th tub woulc\11S• bought anywhere bt.ea~e one could not buy suoh things any rore in Germro\Y at that time. Por instance, in the works carpenters shop and the works installltion departlllent they t.ad been so bombed out that it was i mpos sibl e t o get them t o understand t hat a bath tub was so important. I t mc::'.nt either a t elephone oal.l from the managing direo tor or fra:i the man.aging director of tho welfare department or else goit'S t here pcrsorwJ.ly to r.iake 1 t clear t o t her.t that 1 t was reUly important. These OAtraordina:ry t hinf.S arc tho thi.nss that \TGl'e told

me.

Q The sisters found out t ha t you ' '191'c t ho r i rht channel '1hen t hey minted somethin ;

32

•

did tqey ? A. No, the aiaters found out that I wqs the l'Wl who always helped wbenevf'r possible. ·

Q Anc.l you were t he liai aon, were you not,with the parties t hat could s upply the things ? A. If fl'rery man of rqy standing in t he works had oared so much about the Xhomo an<1. had h <'l p ed tho works medical dcpartmt-.n t as I hD.ve, noboczy could blame me for what happened in the home.

Q Did you tind out, in general, that people in the Volkswaeen \Wrks were very 11 ttle intm.·cGted in thio hanc '? il. I t 'ms nn order by Dr. Piech t hat Dr. Xorbel should be aasiutcd in o.11y of hie needs by all departments ot the works. I cannot reruember a single case where aizy demands wtWoh were made an behalf'

ot 'the ohildrm' a hane were not carried out direo~. Bapeoiall.y in those 4epartaents of t he factory in wb ioh emergency things were prepared it -.a not easy to tell these po.ople, while the factory waa lying in rutn that these things were 110 neo eaaar;r.

Q Do you remeui>cr Georg Muller alJ.owiJig some children to remain in the :Eaat«m workors lager when they shoul d have gone to Rueben ? A. I knew that aCJDe children were in the Ras~ern workers oamp which had our tacit consent.

Q Did it have your oonaflllt ? A. I knew about it, yea, and tolerated it.

Q When you heard about it did you not rebuke JJuller tor allow1ng it ? A. No.

Q Did you not order that the ohildren should go to the home in Rueben and not remain in the East lager ? A.. No.

!HE JUDGE ADVOOATE: I do not lmow whether you are putting that en iJ\Struoti<Xl8 but ~ reoollecation ot the evidence is that KUhlmnn ord•ed that.

MAJOR DRAPER: Do you know who ordered the ohll<lren back tram the Bast lager to the hOllle at lb..lehen ? A. It i. t was anybod,v it oould only haTe been the Kreisleiter, beoauw nobcx\Y in the works or in the welfare services had any interest in causing diaoontent in the Eastern wor ;ere camp. Vie 41d get round this matter by ei thcr sending in application or get t ing the mothers to seud in applioationa aaking the Kreialeiter tar permission to 11~ there. This took ti.JM and aaDetimea we gtined aa.etbing and aaaettmea we gained ever,-thing that ~. Beside a, as tar aa I r•ember it was reomrnem4ecl t o the mothers if they \'i8lltod to stay w1 th their children they should go to Ruehen w1. th their children. One oo.n be sure that if we had the chance to protect our Ne.stern workers' 110men a~inst eeparation 1."rom the children we did do that, beoauoe of all the people that did deliwr in this oamp not very ~ wre trom the taotory at all. •

Q Uid the Volkswagen works show the same intereat in proaerving the life of the ohildren, do you think ? A. Yes.

Q Is that the reason that 420 died ? A. I do not belieYe that 420 did die.

Q Is it the reason wtv between 300 and JtOO died ? A. I do not knew what I should anmrer ~ thts q.iesti on .

Q When you arranged for the home at lblehen to open bO'lf many children did you estimate you ooulci p ut up there ? A.IMyself' did not arrange that the home be built up in lbleben; whnt I arranged was that the hell t}\y children should be s eparated from the aiok children and when cne hnd agreed about the looation of the home on:cy when this choice had been conf'i.nned by the managing director wa.a Ruehan installed. l'inally the decision about the location of the ~ rested with the works doctor.

Q Is it right then that you had no 1.dea. how mny babies oould be nooomnodated at Ruehan ? A. I did.

Q How many ? A. ny m;y estimation 250 to 300 children oo..ild be aooournodated there •

Q 1ere the barracks f'itted uo to take th.at number ? A. I think that the huts were first installed to JWoommodate 100 and later an 200. I think, in f'act, it waa arranged lat er on to havo 200 t her e .

Q In a.ieben ? A. Yes.

''

Q So approximatOly half of the acoamnodation was nwcr used, .because normal.13 -..a it not, 100 children wero living t here ? A. The hut s ,.,ere s o l arge t hat according to nzy- eat i i..ati ou 250 to ;A) chi l dren c ould have bec..:1 a.ocomoodat ed there .

Q ,./ere thooe hut o fiJ~t&l uy i 'or th.o.t uw.ilie:.r to be i nstalled. t here ? A. I do not .kncr.1, but to inatall in the barra.ok s enough o.ccom'..lod.ation for f'urther intakes m>oo have been a mat ter or o. f cw deys. The whole home was rearranged i n a fcrt.i1ieht, bu t they di 1 work day and. n i ght.

Q Listen caratull.y t o t ho queotion ohd try t o answer 1 t. li'or how many ohilclrcm was· the home ori.g1nall.y titted up at .Rnehen ? A. Aa tar as I know there were about 150 ohHdren at the Sobaohtng so that it could be o.swood in Ru~en t he home irould be :titted up for 150 to 200 cht:'.dren. That extension had to be planned rlgtlt ~ the beginning.

Q Ia t h3 right answer that you, at the time, did not !aw\T ? A. I oannot gin a itorc exac t anU\7f'r than I have g iven.

Q \'lhan you ',falt out t o visit the hOll!e a ·;; &.lehen did you notice how much spaoe there Y.'aS :for tald.ng in babies ? ·A. I cml.y notiood that not all the aocOlllllOda.tian was used.

Q How ~ children were there normally when youvisi ted there in Rul9hen · '1 A. I do not know; I did not ooun& them.

Q Bad you no idea wbether thero were 5 or 50 A. Yee, I did.

Q Well, wbo.t ? A. I n that one barrack only werft m the older ohildrenJ I estimate there were about 60 t o 80 children.

Q And in the l>arraok m1ero the smaller children were ? A. In the small but t here rmwt have boen 20 er )0.

Q l1a.s t here still some opare a.ocoomodati on ? A. I said bet'are t hat riot &11 t he acoor.m:oda ti on tMS uaed and t hat 90De r ooll18 were empty.

Q ¥Tero they f i t tor ohlldren ? A. No, in some of them there were nursing start' living, ond aomo were complote]S eq>ty and some had beds which uere no'tuaod. ·

Q 1ow '"'8 it you always wor 1:ed out roughly the rigtlt araount of children f or the aecoarnodation 'l A. I do not k-1ow.

Q I1' all the children had l!Ved, '\TOuld i t not b e apparent that the homo would have bem over-crowded ? A. No.

Q You SQ\Y then that ther e was room then tor ,00 or 400 children ? A. One ooul d have made availabh in Rueben aoooamodation tar 300 or 400 ohU4ren or ewen more.

Q It had not bren done, had it ? A. There was no need for it.

Q .13eoawse oo many died., that i e r i c;ht, ia it ? A. I oarmot judg" that.

Q Is 1 t not obvious that t here was neYer over-crowding so l ong aa ao rm1l\Y were czyi ng ? I\ . AJJ. I t o giv<' on arswer to that ?

Q It was a (f.le&tion ? A. No.

Q Di el Dr. Korbel wer tel you that the Polish mothers d i d not behave in a motherly ta.ahion towards their ohil4ren ? A. Yea.

Q tu1d t hat they di d ne t s how Ol'l\Y interest or affect i on for their children ? A. Yes.

<.; >id you henr the evidenoP of those t hree Pol :i ah mot hers in t hi:J court '? A. Yeti.

Q :Oid 1 t strike you that thoy wero i n t ore::stod in their dead c hi ldren, or not ? ,,. -

A. I was undar the impx-.oion, more than anything eilae, that t hese WOfll8l'l

were prejudiced.

Q Do you think they were interested. in thoir dead children ? That was the ~estion ? A. YeH.

-

Q Suttio1ently to be aXt still upset today when talking about the dead children? A. YeA.

Q l>o you t hink that Dr. Kol'l>el' s explanation of the oothers' attitude \'88 in all respeota correct ? A. These were tlu'ee mq there out of many; ono should oall them all and make observations fi'Oln that, but I do remember that Dr. Korbel told me that their love for their children among tho Polish woman l1UB much greater than that auoong the lhlaaian ~.

Q Did you go and diaouea with the Kreialoi ter whether there waa any chance of' getting an erlen31on ot the time t hat t he mothers could a tey- with t heir c hildren ? A. I said before that we bad cutae to an agreement wi. th the Krefolei ter that the works would suppzy reserve lnbour f or thooe wanen so that mothers could ate_.y with their children altogether, and that thi s was not used.

Q .Do you ~ that you did evcl"ything in your povror t o save the livee ot those children, ~'yrol t ? A. I made 1 t poaoiblo to have this exchange s3stem, I saw to it t hat t he re.ton soale of tho children was raised. cwen before this ottical raioing of the ration aoole waa permitted the obilc1rm • got all the .food they needed. Vfhon l heard t hat on epidemic had broken ou t in the home l ran the r isk of a ohowdmm nnd I co.used a change to ta.lee place anoe more.

l.,t Do you say a 1 your oath that you dicl everythi ng in y our power to save t he livea of the children in t he homes 'I A. Yee.

Q Md that all that youc.did tme in the Trey of help and not in the cour.lc of your duties ? A. Yea.

Q .by rlid you not help equally m'11 out ot your du'f:..1 at Rueben ? A. Becuuae Ruohen did not come an.- me.

Q Tha t does not matter. I t is n queatior. of' our of your duties, i s i t not ? A. llut y ou cannot imag ine what !l\Y aphero of d.utiea "'19.5. We did not work in on oft'i ce from 9 to 12 and between 3 and 5; W9 worked from halt put five in the morning until llddnight. Do you not tbi?kthat after ·these heavy e.ir raid.a on 1be works my t ime '\'8.B not taken up as head of the i)eroonnel department and do you think that I tound. time eap6cialzy to look atter t hings that were no t ~ j ob '

Q You must not ask me queatiarus; I aak the ~es tions ? A. l wish to apologise; 1 t waa meant as statements of taot as regards conti tiono at the tbne.

Q That was the only r oaaon you go.ve up fmtercst in the home a t Ruehen~ is 1 t ? A. If I bad ~bj;ng t o do in the vicinity of Rueben I al.W&i.YS went to the camp, even up t o t hat time Tlhon Ru eh en reaJ.13 bad nothing more to do with me, and I asked \'lhether there vcre an:y spccia.1 wishes as I did at the Schaohtng.

Q When ycu wero doinb all theae t h1n3n, whose duty were you doing ? A. That was the duty of the ,;ork e medical dcpactmcnt which was under tho publio heal th department.

Q And t he nnme~ of the people, therefore ? f . '11hc dutie'3 ot Dr. Xorbel.

Q l>o you eay t hat if t h1ngo vrere wrohg a t Ruehen they were entirely Dr. Korbel' a t aul t and the sis tPro ? A. I cannot Q judge t hat.

Q Who else' s f ault ooulcl 1 t be '? A. The general oondi t ions of t he time were ouch t hat one eholJ. be ptrmitted to mL<e detailed accounts of them, beoauso a t I.hat t i mo many poop]." diod i n t he worko as a r esult of air raids and t he

35

mi sery •.79.s so ext ensi ve f.n tovm and ommtry t hat one coul d r eally r egard the conditions as being extraordinary .

Q Would that not hav e been an e.dmi rnble tine t 0 atggest that the home be closed ? A. That was done r cpeat ec1.ly by t he aut horities .

Q ny You ? A. Yes, from me too. It ;aa suggestro by me i n J \Ulo already and r. know that Dr. ~'ieoh tried vory hard t o get o. change and Dr. Jo-.orbE:.l o.ls o tried v ery hard.

Q Did you suggest ahll.t*ing 1 t up aftor Juno ? .A. Yes .

Q To Dr . Piech ? A. llo , I tri ed to contact t he gaulei ter, to whom one c oul d not to.lk personal.zy - t hat was 1ml>o::Ja lble - ond to hav e an influoooe on him by meens of tho Gau Pro.uenachaftaf'uh:rerln b eoauae I had heard that she had a great infl uence on the Gaule i t er.

Q Di d 30u a sk f or an interviei,1 'ri th r orcchc ? A. No.

THE JllI)(;B ADVCCATEt Dr. Rogge, do yo11 ro-emmine t he witness 't •

DR. BOGGE1 No, sir.

THE J UDGE ADVOOATE t Dr. 1'yrol t , the r e nro a f em things vmi.oh you mey be able t o hel p t he c our t about. Prof4!ssor Porsche 1fB.8 a man with a great deal ot infiuenoe in ho poo!tion ae heacl of the canoen:i, was he not ? A.Yea.

Q When t he Krelaleiter f'irst oame to aak that the chlldren' • home in the works should bo made available ~or the llhole Kreis, he wan really asking a favour of Prof'e::lsor Porcohe, wao he not ? A.Yes, he asl~ed him.

Q Proteasor l~he c oul d bave raf\lsetl t he r equest nt t hat time, o0ul dhe't .Yes, bu t thi.3 question \tn.3 not rained with Prof essor J>orache but tri t h

Dr. Pieoh. To expl ain t his, Pror essor Porsche wo.s in the W-. about ~10 er three days a roont h. Sometimes not for months.

Q .t\nd Dr. Piech was ~hero a l ot ? A. Yen, he was there A. l ot.

Q The. r ecpes t was madn to him 'h-.r t ho l:Z.e1sl c1ter " A. Ye'l.

Q In your opinion oould Dr.Piech hav e ref\uled that request quite eu1ly bad he want ed ? A. 'foe , I think that ho ooud have turned down the l!Jf\tter.

Q Is i t your opi111.on that all the troubl e with t he bane, namely the deaths that aub:Jequent l,y ooourred, i o traoeable to the fact that ao many children ~om nx:>thers ou tside t he work s were brought into it ? A.I wish to i >Oint out t hat if 14 had been a matter of our own l'Olish and lhtssian workers women thece would b e no OOC'lsion for such a hip,h morta1ity rate, b ecause ,.,e ooul d have :perroi ttod the children to remain wi. th the mot hers .

Q Thdl you agree t)w.t the t robl l e> ;·~'l caused by t he l arge numbPr of mothers a1lowed t o come froc:i outside the 'Wl')rh."'8 but w1. t hin t he JCrei a ? A. Yes.

C Did Dr. Pi ech' s posi tion of i npor to.nco docr onoe at all duri ng t he year 19"4 or was he s t i ll a very i •'lpOX-to.nce pe. s on ? A. No , it did r ot decrease.

Q We.a there aeythins to prevO'tt hil!l eoing to the Kreislei ter and saying: "Th is business of bringing iu t he women trom outside t he 1'0rka baa coaq>le tel.J spoilod our ohilclren' s home and wUl you please taJce them e""'y a"'d lee.Te us to run the hone for our ~ YIOrkern".? A. Dr. P!.ech did tho.t.

Q Ile Ci.id t hat ? A. Yes.

Q Di el any result follow ? A. I spoke Fr(YSelf to t ho ICreisleiter a.bout tbie. Tho eioleite.r t ol d mo thnt i t would be l !!J>08s i ble t o bring this about \Ti. th the Ca.ule iter and tho.t the G8Ulei t er was only l ooking after p eople l i v ing in tho couutr.'J and t l o reot <ild not mat ter two hoots t o him, but

36

•

he· W8.8 quite willing to wentiou our r equest to him and ho dic1.

Q Was not t he Kreisleitcc t he DUlJl reopowsiblc for the forDiatinn of a clini.o and mut eini 1.y home for the p eOJ>l o 1n his Kreioe '! A. I do not know. I only know that he acted an orders o!.' the Gauloi ter and that He did not kn.ow whe1·e he should get t his 111fant:.; ' home from.

Q There i s another maiit81° I \"n:t.nt Lo ask you something about. At the conference on 13th Jw1c WWl tha t the i'irot time t hat tho ~estian of using Ruehen had ever been raised at all ? A • • cs , thi s idea of Direct or Behr s oame oompletely lUlelC!->ectedly. E'verybo<Jv v olcoaed. it generally .

Q Beoause up to that time there blld been no questiou of a:ooving the home until you ha.i diooovored ti1c trou~lc i ll ubo Scrl.:l.Chtrreg ? /\. Bu~ ao I pointed out before pl.ans md been made whioh "'9r e however spoiled by air attack• Then we started building a camp for ll,000 peo-ple. Thi s project or spending 12 million oarks had already been otarteJ..

Q Apa.rt from that instance of that 1>0ssible move the home ltaa go:.ng to stay in t he Scu.a.cht7reg unlcoo you diocovered ·that epideni c ? A. We were builcllr~g a large ca.op at Lagerburg o.it of stone and a large hoepi tal was planned 1n this oaMp, to which the infant.a home was to be joinecL Theae plans muot still be o.vallable ~.

Q Do not worry ab out that. You did not intend to Move t he children' o home t'rom the Scha.chttreg until that nCI'/ camp m>.s ready untll you diooovered this trouble of the e,rid.emio ? A. That in dittioult to anSWjr beoauae it there bad boen a suddsi laok ot supplies or such causes as air raid do.nger boooming ir:tninent we might hav e rr.ovOd the home befor e.

Q But there baa been not di11CUSs ion on moving it before ? A. No.

Q Di d muoh have t o be done to ~elvn t o make it suitab le for a children' s heme beofre the childrcII moved ti1G£.'t~ ? A. I oaid b efore it was an emer~ency :::tation for the c i ty honpi ta1 lll?d I think that as these huts bad been marked dollll a..J an elllergency staticn ~ t or a publio hospital. it would have all the particul.Ar re(J.liai tes neoeaaary for a hospital. or in t hia oue !'or o. children' s home.

Q .Jo you .'le."lll there waa n ot hI.n..; r equir ed to be don e l>efore the ohilclrcn moved in ? A. I would not like to say t hat; 1n ony case in l:\Y' opLrl.on it woulJ l~ve to be di s in:f'eatod, but it wao i n oucb. a c orvlitiat of r eadines s that one coul d have aoconmodated people 1n it in 24 hours because t here would have to be a place like that because if the c ity hoopi tel. Wf!!l' e 1.Jo41bed ont pati ent s would have to be rooved very. speedily .

Q Wo.s 1 t disin£es ted before t he children moved? A. Yes.

Q I n b etween the deoio1on t ah'!l'l nt the conference ard the move. of. t he ohildrcn ? A. Yes.

Q Voultl you l ook at exhibi.t 47, pnrtv :raph. l ? (handed) Uoes 1 t ~ t i ere "All heol~hy childrm 'rill h e t ransported to Ruehen on 14th 6tll 1nstant 11? A. Yes .

Q I s that t.he vm:y day ai'ter t ho con:f~enco which was hel d tairly l ate on t he 13t h JWle ? A. Yoo.

Q ~ you still say t uat tho oorracks were dis1.n1"ested before tho chilc!ren • werA tnken t here ? A. I do not think that all 80 childreuwere taken there a t onoe.

Vlere any o.f t h6"1 taken on 14th June ? A. I do not know "7hether children TTcro taken t here on the 14th.

Q That vras t h o order and what was agt"eed, was it not ? A. Th.'l.t waa not o..n order. r t wuc juc;t d ir.ett BAl onn M el l noted i t <l.cmn . I \rl:Jh t o poi n t ont, t hin i s not an ord.or bu t I\ memo t or my own purposes.

. ~

~ ~'hp deolsio11 i o fer "P..11 he.'\l t hy c hi l droa -- nbont 80 -- will be t rw1uportcd

}7

t o Ruehen on t h e 14th J une''. It that decit51on bn.J bem carried out t he barracks cO'lld not have boc:n dicinf'eoteci between t he ocnference and tlle arrivn.l of t he children, coulcl 1 t ? A. Tlmt is cor r ect but one could be ::rurc that the children '\'rere 11ot oent out there h ef'or e t he huts were dif>ln:fosted. That shou 'd po 00011:1 fow 1d out hO\V thAt to<>lc place.

Q J.>id you hear Sister .'nthe Pi otcra' 3ta:temcnt r ead to the c ourt ? A. \ e a .

Q Di d you hoar t h:J. n nen t moo i n i t: "I moved there" - t ho. t i s Ruch en -"wi 'f;h the childre.'1 on 14th June 1941~" . Is t hat a mi~tnke on her no.rt ? A. r C :\..'1.nOt judr e thu~ .

Q When you were discussin?, the- c..'\ue<'s of the d.eflths of the children at the oolH'erenc e wna ano of: the r easoo ptrc fonrard by Dr. Kerbel that the ohildr6n did not thrive when separated t'rom their mothers ? A. Ye s , he mentioned that as one ot the ree.soos.

Q While the home was in the Schacht weg the mothers in the factory could come to f'eed their children at nip,tlt and eo on, could they not 'I A. Yea.

Q Would that not have beoo!!le nmoh 1.10rc <litticult when t he ohlldrm were moved to Huehen '/ A. I did not pond.el• about that at the time. I cl1d not think about the condit ion s ot l!JOth<'r and child, that th.ere would be ~ clraatio ohange by the move beoause the women that worked in the factory were not empl oyed in t he factory t or the first wceka at't er delivery but \Jere 9llployecl in t he kitchen or the oarap which -.s in the vioini t y of the ohildrSl' a bale.

Q J)id Dr. Korbt'J. rais e any ob.1eotian to the mve to Rueben a1 the grounds that it might inoreaeA the separatic.1 of the mother s and children ? A. l'~o, he did not.

Q You a&id in enS1rer, I think t o Dr. Brockler, that Severin' a duty ._.. il!Pflediatftl.y to look after end order cpietneaa and good order at the Of\111> ? A. Yes, by thai; I wish to point out in general terms the duties o~ tht- camp oorr.r.-iandant . I know thA.t f::l evet'i.n 'W.ll mokinp; special. efi'orta out in the ccuntr,. mtd had a rabbit falUl out th.Ire mid always did ha b eat when it waa neoeasary. After al.l to run a farm and to l"\D'l a rabbit f8.rl.'l is not exactly the job o£ a OUIIl leader either. · I only lnmt to point ou t t hat he c ould not exerci• any influanoe on the children' a bame.

Q Had he anything to do With the burials of the child.ran ·? A. I do no t know.

Q Ii' he was sent the accounts to oheok before !i:f't'e got paid does that surprlae you ? A. Yee.

Q What did you think oi' Dr. Korbel &a a doctor ? A. l tltink tll.at ho is an emoeU.it spMia.liot on internal diseases.

Q Did he have IU\Y German ohildren to look af'tcr at al.l, of tbe worlca perllOtUlel ? A. Ho.

Q l'l<X'.e ? A. lfone.

Q Was there anothnr doctor to l ook oftor any G~-an children, or wore there no German children '? A. ~here were no children in the works. In the Bastern workers camp there wei·c 100 t o 200 c hild.rm aged from ono t o 14 o.nd the remai ning children who lived i n tho tow.:.1 .ere l ooked artar by the mediaal praotioners.

Q 'l'ho oi.·dinai·y tov,u doctors ? A. l. oa, by t he otb.r doct oro i h 'i.he t ol'm.

Q The b i g , tall ulooka or build.in~ a t tfolfabUL·g other 1.htl.n the f actory building; 'Jere t hose the pl noes oocur.,1ed by tl c Gertua.. . Ttorker s ? A. ~ll.e stone builcll.nga in the to•m, yoo.

Q Does the tarm include \7here t he Sohnchtwcg ic ? A. Yes.

Q And the (;erman \10.i,·kers li"ecl there aml t he1:e wau a -eritmi doctor to l ook after them, the Gcrcuan chilJre;n , in l.ha. 11 :.u·oo, \18.u there ? A. I only kna.·r that Dr. \,olf Tnw one ot the raoclical prncti tionero tovr.a. I do not kn0\"1 any

38

other doetore i ' J t01m • He wno oonaul ted as advis or nnd medical praoti t i onPr by t ltc population, na for instance l>r. Ohl wqs a medi onl fI"lct i t i er.er.

Q Your job for a l ot of t he time wne hean of thfl p ersonnel, i o t h.at right ? A. Yee, I vm.s 1 charge o.!' t h" per:,;1onnel dopnrtmcnto; t nere wer .~ sov~J. oe them.

Q \'r ore a ny of: the worl<:er s :frool llol faburfl eNcr sent to 21 c amp at Drunowicl, ? /, • ', ha. t ia t h:! s crurrp 21.

Q The 110rks education oaa1r>, J think i t is.

llAJOR DRAP~~ i I t is n ot in Brunswick ; it is n ear 1Iaru1over.

THE JUDGE ADVOOATlh Crunp 21 ? A. Jlo. nobody was ever y s ent nway by the works management or h ead of the personnel depa.rtr1ent s .

Q You never heard ot &l\Ybocly going ? A. No.

Q ,,)i d you know JAfgenie ;1ri was there ? A. l heard this.

Q ~'as ahe working in the Volkswagon \TOrks bet'oro abe went Uiere ? not notic e at the tt.e •

. A. I did

Q /fo 11d not anyone report to you the number o.t' \7or kers going totho oorr8Ction oamp ? A. No, \/hen there were fNer any cases in '7hioh the Geato.po were involved we always had a row '\'11th thec because we were of the opinion .that nobody was allowed to bo taken Otd ; of the workn wl ihout the permission of the managing di,reo i or, a nd beoause of that we had m&\Y and troublesome inoidents wi. th t he Gltatapo. ~ the one hand the chief' ot the Gestapo, Hoke, wa~ relieved nnd on '.;he other hand I was 1;alcen dcmn as <leDuty sacu..."i ty OJ. t'icor b ooa.u: o I was n~t r ogarded as poli tioal.ly sni table by the police.

Q liail you !llruV people the.~ the Gestapo wanted to t olce avMy 'I A. Yes, for instanc e the G-e:Jtapo oonstontl.y i n tert'<>.red vri t h t he law ond 'll"der serrtces wbich had oeen intl:oduoou by t he footory.

Q '!he Rust>1an latr and oruer p( opl c 'l A. '..:he Russian l an and order •ei~coa that the Rusaiana ho.d aol.eotod theroaelvea, and fi.•om t i i.a.t tuoe onwards t 11ero \fdS al\~ys troubl• \7i th tho Ccota.po, u ocause t his law and order servi c e tiad worked \Jell in fJITm:y r espoct. It might have been hOW8V'er that the blaok market was increaood by the activities of this service.

Q What t·eason did tho C'.eotapo give f or arres ting peopl ? &. Tho Gestapo told me a t that time; "I do not know whethor you know but it you aak ~ (Jleati0i.--ie of t hia l1ll1.1.4-e you will l>e de9.ling with t he G•tapo". That oaWJed me to give a corronponding an&W8l' • Thero waaal.w.ys trouble with thos e people because amangnt the emp]Jreos of the works they had orgmiiaed a system of spies, r.ot only tcri~eignera a:pying an toreignei·s but also Germana opy i i.g o.l Gel.mans . If we f ound such p eople we tm.·871 them out.

Q ..>.id '.;he l\.isaion la" and order ,people get any special privelegea QLlOOgat ~heir o·.m p eople? A. Ho, it jus t did duty witl.in the camp and consisted of special seleot~ perso1mol. They did not need t o go to work.

Q J'i d anyor.e SD.¥ a t ibe ~o.nfcre11ce on 13th June that i£ you moved t he home aweur tho moth~a would 11ot know what was happening ·? A. 110.

Q If you hru1 got the Kre isleiter to agree to disoolving the Jdnd.errheill what •ere you go1n~: to do w1 th tho ohildrm ? A. Probably there would bnve b"Mn n iscu:;.nion b e1i.1ec 1 >r. Pioch • .n 1 D1'• Korbel a a to ' Iha" would have to be Jone . Probo.bly t hey woulO. hav e be en put at the disposa1 of 1.ho 100thlll"s oc. tci.D::; t he rot horc oou1 '1 oolloct thom nnl the other c hildrfm !Jr. Korl>cl would tlor-J likely have taken to t ho oity hoepital.

Q \71.e. 1. 1.h e ~ '. dlclren' s homo was in tho Ea.a t om VIOrk eL s cump t here wna not a. n~tarni t y home at tho.t ti o , waa thoro 'l A. Ho.

39

• Q Where Wll"e the ohildren barn then ? A. I think it wns the sick bay ot Dr. Ohl'•· I remember two births; t hey were t he tirtst births or our Eastern work.... In those oases the delivery took place in t he si.ok bay of Dr. Oh.1 and they were assisted by the Russi an doctor. Where the other daliYerieo took place I do not Iawa-, but I 4o not believe t he.y took place in the ho8Pital of the Butem warkera camp.

Q You told ua about writing to, I t hink 1 t waa the NSV, tor help in gett ing nUl'llea and you had no reply to your letter ? A. Yes.

Q Did you f/Vf!lr think of writing again ? A. Mo, b eoauae I Ymt personally to Luneburg about that. I .pMe t o the waaan in oharge ~; tllat was s everal weeks lat_. and ahe told me that she bad not enough at&tt' nen tor the Gell'IIml boepitala, and it I were a.lland too many ahe aaid the Gauleiter would haYe her bead ott it llhe aent a German aiater to the foreign workers home.

Q Had th«re bMD any oomplainte by Slater Bila er &r\Y ot the oth«r ld.atera that you tried to g9' another aiater in the heme ? A. Yea, I kn• tl'at t here waa a abort.age ot atatt 1n the home and u I told the court already Herr Preiburg anoe approached 11e and aaked whether be could do anything about the application ot Slater Kl.la.

Q Would you han mpeotecl Slater Bl.la to put in her mcnthzy reports that the atatt waa ahari ? A. U there 'ft8 a great need tor turther atatt or a great __.geacy ahe would put it in the monthly report, but the mcntbl.y reports ot Sister El.la were rather short.

'1'HE PRBSIDIN'la I am not quite clear about the mec11oal arrangements. Did you l."1 that Dr. Korbel •a in charge ot all the medioal arrangements in the Volk-sen wara ? A. Yes.

Q Haw many a.nmi dootora were working under him? A. It varied willb the yeara.

Q Let ua take Ult.I. ? A. Beaidea ·0r. Simr'es who went m y later an there wu onzy one dentiat, who •s a medical practitioner in Falleraleben, and cnl,y oame to the works tor that purpose.

Q In other 1lm"'ds he only worked part time ? A. Yea, he OIU3 worked there a morning each dq or ee.oh aeaand day, and tor a apeoial matter Dr. Korbel got aome c!ootora out of the b09pital., ot which he waa also in charge; they were rcreign dootcrs.

Q How many foreign doctors had Dr. Kerbel working under him in the Vol.km.gen worlal ? A. I oannot aa.y that.

Q Not approximately ? A. I know there -.a a a.tasian .woman doctor in the Baatern workers Ol!IDP, I know there -.a a Rnsaian waaall doctor at the S6aobtweg. I also knew that Dr. Korbel bad a f oreign assis tant; I do not know whether he was Italian or what nationality he -... Then he had sneral. Dutohs tudenta ot medicine who also helped him; then I think he wu usiated by two or three German aiat.-s and the reaatning ~were for eigners. Besides, he had at hie di8P?aal the atatt and dootora of the hospital ot whioh he waa in charge.

Q Thia hoapi tal, was it part of the Volkswagen worlca or separate ? A. It was ooq>letely independent. The Volkswagen works only had to take CJV9r the hospital beoauae the town cotJd no looger meet the demana made an it by the timee. This hoapi tal gained importanoe through the tact that most of the hospi tala 1n the towns nearby had been damaged by a i r raids.

Q Was there &!'\)' hoapi tal aotually within t he Vol..k.nagen works ? A. Yes, thia sick bay or hospital of which Dr. Ohl was in charge.

Q How many beds tid it contain ? A. I do n ot k oo, but I t hink o.bout 80.

Q It one ot the workers in t he Volkswagen works was sick what happened ? Did he then report t o the 81ck bay or did he aend f or t he doctor ? A. I f he beoa.toe sick then he w.a put on the aiok list and WWJ put into the oorreapanding sick bay. There waa a sick bay in the Polish oamp, another in t he Eas tern

ltO

camp and tor the other oamp the big aiok bay ot which Dr. Ohl waa 1n charge.

Q Let us think of minor Uln .. see. \'faa there a surgery to which people went with minor 81.okneaa, am it 80 who wa in charge ? A.. rle had five big balls, tactory balls, and each taotory hall ha.cl a first aid atation at which there waa a mediO&l assistant, nursea. There was a central hoepi tal, the plaoe where Dr. Korbel worked together with the doctors, and it ncoeuary tbeae tin tirat aid poets sent them to thia place.

Q How mal\Y people attendad eaoh ~ roughly at the ftrioua tirat aid atat1ona ? A. Wbm I oame paat Dr. Korbel'• pia.e where be waa .rlc1ng tlwre ,,_... alway•-. people outaic!e, but it must be edded to that that ...-yboc\Y there 911pl.oyed by the worb and people oonring and going and MYera.l new pereona had to be X-~e4 bet'ore they were 1ialcen on. Theretore I cannot sq that &1.1 th•e people were aioJc.

Q Who did the operating. Waa there a all"891"7 at the warJm? A. Yea, there wu a aurgean at the boapi bl and as tar aa I know be al.w.ye worked in the 1'aotc:ry.

Q Did you he.Te -. aooidenta in the Tolk-aen worb ? A. We had 1111 aooiAent mginelr whoae job it .. to pnvent aooiclenu and he worked in omjunotion w1 tb the worta lledioal department. It ia not Jcnom to

. • tbat we bad a 9P90ially large manber ot acoldalta.

THE JUOOE ADVCCATB1 Dr. lbgge, will you be ready to oall your tirat Wimeu tor your' ollmt tomcazow moming?

DR. ll>OOEs Y-.

MAJOR DRAPBR: Sir, when will it be oonYeniait 1'ar me to put Sn the ranalnlng a-.t.enta whioh are 00111pletecl'

THI JUDGB AIWOOATlh I think 1 t would be beat to wa1 t until th. end ot the oaae ot Dr. TyrQl. t.

(At 1800 boura the oourt is adjourilecl until 0915 hours tomarl'ow. ~, 6th June, JSJ.6. )