H0209 -0001IMT Nuremberg Archives

H-209

International Court of Justice

-0002

Mug-M-GES-l-1-Fitzgerald

OFFICLL TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERNATIONAL MILITRY TRIBUNAL IN THE MATTER OF THE UNITED STATES OF LMERICA, THE FRENCH BE- PUBLIC, THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREaT BRITAIN

AND NORTHERN IRELND, I.ND THE UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS AGAINST HERMAN ILHSLM GOERING ETAL, DEFENDINT, SITTING AT NURNBERG G-RINY, ON 20 AUGUST 1946, 1000-1300, LORD JUSTICE L.RENCE PRESIDING.

THE -Su-- OF THE COURT: Eny it plonse the Tribunal: The Defendant

Hess is absent.

DE: I beg the Tribunal to listen to me for a very brief moment.

This is with reference to a possible precautionary application regarding

ov’donoc. I repeat it is a precautionary application which will only be

operative under certain conditions hich I am about to describe to you. I

beg the Tribunal to remember that the witness Gisevius talked about this same

subject when he testified as a witness for Dr. Schacht, an application to hear

lieutenant General Haider was withdrawn by me at an earlier stage, whereas the

he rine of "rs Strucnke as a witness had been granted by the Tribunal. Though

after hearing witness Gisevius and witness Halder, I decided in order to save

time to witheraw my application to hear this witness as I oonsidorod it to be

cumulative. Now those two tnos.sos lYs Struenk and Colonol Halder w1l no

longer be cumulative if, and this is b- no means my own opinion, the Tribunal

shold adopt the view that the testimony of Witness Gisevius as far as he had

spoken in favor of Dr. Schacht is so.

It is not "y task to trio care of the material or ideal interest of the

tnoss Gisovins; nor is it my task to ostablish the credibility of vatnoss

Glsevlu... tostmony. It 1. merely my duty to furnish ovidonoc on behdlr of

my client, Dr. Schacht. It is my own personal thought, and as far as that is

concerned, I an speaking against my application, that the testimony of GL6cvaus

with reference to Dr. Sohacht, that is to saw the testimony regarding the pur­

pose f armament and Sohacht’s port in the resists™. movement, has in no way

be shaken by the testimony of Witness Brauchitsch which w.s to the effect that

he did not know witness Gisovius at all. Those subjects of evidence are not

merely proved by Gisevius but as far as the interior attitude of th 15870

20 Aug-M-GES-1-2-Fitsgerald

is concerned, it has been proved by affidavits as well as fitness Halder. As

to the bocin ing of the resistance mocoment and the contact with Mluego, that

has been proved by the affidavit of Schmidt.

T PRTSIDET: Dr. Pix, I think yOU must make up your mind whether you

..nt 6 mako an application or not. If you want to make an application, you

must make it in writing. The Tribunal is not inclined to entertain possible

procnuti nary applicot i ons which aro not in writing.

DR. DR: I intend to leave it to the decision of the Tri byncl . I am

moroly making a suggestion because it is my personal view, having had Gisevius ’

testimony —

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has made a rule that applications must be

in writing. That rule has been applied to every other cousel ' appearing on be­

half of the Defendants. The Tribunal thinks that rule should be adhered to by

you, too. Therefore, if you wish to make an application, you should make it

in writing.

DR. DIX: Very well, than I should like very much to make my application

in writing. Does the Tribunal wish that I should use up another .two minutes

by giving the reasons for the aim of my application?

TE FRTSTET: I do not see any reason for departing from the rule.

DR. DIX: Vorywoll. In that case I shall make my ,application in

writing.

TE PRESIDENT: I have two anno uno omcn ts to make. In the first place,

with reference to the application of Dr. Seidl, who does not appear to be pre­

sent. the Tribunal has had a report dated the 17th of August, 1946, on the

condition of the Defendant Fess from Captain G. M. Gilbert, the prison

psychologist. This report will be communicated to the Defendant Hess’s counsel,

to the Fscoution an to tho Pross. a. TFLbuncl wu not oel for any

report upon the Defendant Ress at the present time.

Next, with refaronoo to the applloatl on by Dr. Stahmor datod tho 14th of

August, 1946, the Tsumal will treat this appliontion as e exceptional case,

an they will allow the Gogring to bo rocallod to tho watnoss Lox to

2 0 AuC-I-GES -1 - 3-Fit z ceral d

dool with the evidence upon experiments vhich was given after the

DeferCent Gocrinr ove his evidence, ond upon no other subject.

The Tribunal rejects the application to call another witness and the

Tribunc.1 will hear the defendant Goering in the witness box now.

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H0209 -0005Aug 20-T-2-1-Karr

"" CoFFTN, having bcen previously sworn, was r called.BY THE PRESIDSNT: \

Q You understand, defendant, of course, that you are still under oath?

A Yes, of course, Nr. Presidont,

DIRECT EXA INATIC N

BY DR. ST (HMER:

q Were you the President of the Reich Research Council?A Yes.

Q When and by wthom*s the Reich Research Council created?

A As far as I remember it was created either in 1912 orat the beginning of 1913 by me.

"hat we were concerned with was that every subject, every sphere of scienc

physios, technology, medicine and philosophy should be summarized and that tL,various institutes of the state, the -mporor ilholm Institute, the institutes ofthe univorsitios, the economic research departments , -F " --53 ncn W-re al carrying out

research "o" concurrently should be drawn together in this Reich Research Council Commissions were formed according to the subject they were a aling with. They wer

centralized and it was their task that research should not belines but that research should be

carried on on parallcarried out jointly.

Secondly, they were to centralise related research work, such as physics and

ch-mistry, that that was to be centralized and carried out correctly.At th

deputy..of each one of these comissions there was a plenipotentiary, a

ht in the foreground, of bourse, in the case of all this roosonr „mpplication to h necessities of war and for that purpose special men war.

appointed also. Anis eich Research Council carried out not hundreds but thousandsof various tasks of research and since I personally am of course, not an expert, Iwasmerely 1 chairman o the whole institution in order to lend it my authority an?

as in order to furnish tho necessary funds as one of my foremost tasks in that

connection. The tasks I had w re headed by neicLsmag,,-+u-- --usmarsna- of the German Reich andI r sidcnt of the Rcich Research Council.

Q eh position within the Airforce and which tasks did the Medical Inspocto rate of the Airforce have?

A It had the task, just as in the case of all other branches o ths amed15873

Aug 20-RT-2-2-Karr H0209 -0006

5’ ° -cake care of th- hygiene and health of the armed forces, to take care

of all the. work which fitted into that sphere.

Q Did the lodical Inepactorato have any connections with the Reich Research

Council?

A Naturally there " re ioase connections between than and the Reich Weare:

ounell in oxdr to explain th results at the nyedene and medical research work

or r-pectively cornmunicato to them their wishes regarding the orders which were

to be dealt with, the tasks which wars to be carried out by the Reich Rossarch

Council.

Q id you siv- the Reich Research Council or the Medical Inspectorate of

the r‘ ros tasks at any time for the carrying out of medical experiments on

detainees in concentration camps, Dachau or any other camps?

• I should like to say quits clearly on this p int that there is not a

single letter hich could possibly be signed by mo and that not a single man

could possibly appear to state that I myself have at any time, in any shape of

f r, iven a sang1o task or a singlo order or even a hint in that respect.

9 Md you have knowledge of the fact that Dr. Rascher or a chief medical

officer of the -roroc. Dr. roles, had carried out medical experiments on de-

tainuos in tho concentration camp of Dachau?

A 3 I have learned hero in lurnburg and 2s I have gathered from the docu-

menta, T• aschor was • muccal officer of the Airforce Reserve and apparently

later on, as appears from the correspondence, he did net succeed with his expert-

ments. He resigned from the airforce and became a medical officer in the SS. I

myself have, never soan the man, I have never known or met the man, just as the

second name which you have mentioned is strange to me and I do not even know

whether he was an active, serving medical officer or a medical officer in the

Re s . rve .

Q Did you give the Order to any department or did you have the order evon to any department that sub-pressure chambers should be used on atainocs tn con-

c ntration camps?

A I have already tola you that I have not Aena so. lt is netura that 1e

arybdy had come to me, shall we say from the gdacal tnepuctoreto o From th

Rich Rosoaroh Council, and had told me that it would be serving a purpose .15874

Aug 20— -23- H0209 -0007

e" out research shall say regarding the subject of cancer research or

yphoid research but of course I would have said that that is a very preiscvorth

enterprise, Fut then I cann.t possibly connect that fact with the idea that a

human being should be used in an incorrect manner in connection with it and if

bolls ne that at present the experiments are going on with low pressure chambers that I cannot possiblyunderstand by that or imagine through it that de­

tainees have be n used or are being used in that connection, all the moru so con- siderins that I knew that ev-ry aviator was being experimented with in the low

pressure chamber in order to find out his flying abilities before he could pass hi s examination,

Q id the Boich Research Council or the .iodical Inspectorate of the irforc

receive the order from you to carry out experiments for making sea water drinkabl

have nover heard of the experiment. It would have interested me extra­

ordinarily because repeatedly we aviators, amongst ourselves, have discussed this

point, not regarding making sea water drinkable but with reference to the questic,

of how a flyer who would b a adrift in the sea in a lafsboat could obtain drinkabl

water at all and it was always said amongst flyers at the time that there was only

one possibility^ that they should have fishing tackle aboard their Lifeboats ®

that they could catch fish and they were given the primitive instruction to squcc:

out the fish since that was the only drinkable water obtainable under such circum­

stances. That is why that point is particularly clear in my memory.

Q But then in May 19444 this matter is supposed to have been discussed during

a conference in the r Ministry. Had you ordered that conference or were you in­formed about it f torward?

A No. Currantly and daily conferences of all types and of all departments

" .re taking -laoo in the Air inistry and they could not possibly comrurdocto to

me daily or report it to me at Headquarters.

1 th "-ference to that same question, discussions with the Airforce are sup-osud to have taken places! Dachau. ere they ordorsd by yeu or aa you gain knowle go of them?

1 No.q For this parpes medical officers of the airforce are supposed to have nad

working r^oms at their disposal at Dachau at certain times. Had you learned of those facts?

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A No, I had no knowledge whatever of these facts.

Q Do you know the medical officer of the Airforce Reserve, Dr. Deck?

A I knew him neither under the name Deck or Dick.

id you ive the order or did you have the order given that low freezing

experiments should be carried out which are supposed to have beencrried out by

a certain Professor Naustginor, a medical officer of the Airforce Reserve at

Dachau, for which he is supposed to have used detainees?

A No, as far as I can remember from the files Russia is suposd to have

carried out these low freezing experiments. Hausteiner is just as unknown to me

as are the other names. There w re thousands of medical officers in the Reserve

of the Airforce.

9 Did you ever meet Dr. Eazgon, Professor at the University of Strassburg,

who was the chief staff medical officer or was supposed to have been the chief

medical staff officer of the Airforce and you had given himordersat any time to

make experiments in order to defeat typhoid?

A as I have gathered from the documents also, Dr. Haagen was a medical

officer in the Airforce Reserve and advisory hygoino expert not of the Airforce

generally but of the Air Fleet, that is a unit of the Airforce. I do not know him.

I have never at any time given him an order and he obviously could be heard as

to that at any time.

Apart from that, this again would heve remainea in my memory in overy rJopoct since it would have astonished no somevihet, since I myself had been inoculated

against typhoid three times and I certainly did not believe that further research

in that sphere was taking place/

9 But then how do you explain it that witness Sievers in . letter

to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, dated ay 13, 1911, statee that T-ofessor Haagon naa been ordered by the ‘Reichsmarshal, the President of the Belch Research Council,

to carry out such experiments?

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20 AuG -I- GH - 3 - 1 - Blakley H0209 -0009

A This can be explained as follors: firstly, as I said earlier,

the lotter hoading fcr all such orders vhich in any way were connected with

the eich Research vros worded, the Rcich Marshall of the German neich,

signaturo, the president of the Reich Research Council, That was tho

custom in Germany: that first of all the personal title was quoted and not

the department, the office. It was, for instance, the Reich Hnistor of

finance, and not the Reich Ministry of Finance. Secondly, titnoss

Sievers hinsolf has testified here with reference to a rather largo figure

that ten thousand orders were issued under my name without that I myself c mid

have lmnovm of these orders. That, of course, would have been quite impcssibl

Certainly it was known in the whole of Germany that hardly ever has a

name boon used as much as mine. If anyone were to achieve anything at all,

ho quite happily and gaily said that the Reichsmarschall wished it, or he

would like to see this or that dono or this or that ordered.

Was for that reason that in 1944 I created a special dopartment

which prevented the misuse of my nano with reference towards such matters.

• Then what was your basic attitude regarding the carrying out of

medical oxperiments on human boings?

Ti PESTDEmT: I think the defendant has already told us what his

basic attitude wos.

DR. 3TA.Z.ER: Very well, nr. resident. Quito, Then with reference /

to this subject I Shall have no -or questions. I shellmoroly havo to

rofor myself to further questions as soon as the witness Sievers has

appeared here - I beg your pardon, tho witness Helder, from whom a statement

has boon submitted to the T,;.1 ..... . ,one frue-» "h-c has not been introduced in

evidence, so that I cannot ,+ .L:. ... - ..annot at -8 -oenb define mycttitude with reference to it.

TE PRESIDENT:

because the tribunal

but youmusc conclude

The Tribunal doesn’t know what you are talking about

nas not yet allowed the witness Helder to be called,

your examination of the defendant now.DR. STAHMER:

Lr.Prosidont. It

in that case then I believe that I have been misunderstood,

is the witness Schroiber wo are concerned with. From

50038 ohrolbor a Statorront boon cnnouncod in this court room;

Tribunal tad onncunood it. Ascion with roforonoo to at, nomony, ..15877

and the

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20 Aug-L- GII-3- 2-Blalcloy

Schroibor should appear as a witness hero; and I shall havo to reserve

myself’ the right, thoroforo —

T PRLSIDEIIT: The interpretation cow to us as Holder,

DuL, STAIIIER: Quite,

T- PSIDET: It came to us as -elder with reference to Schreiber.

D- S-AHER: 2To, no, Schreiber is the name; Professor Schreiber, I

meant. The Russian, the Russian statement.

P--S--ET: If this 'Schroibor is brought here in accordance vith

the Tribunal’s order, then no doubt you vdll have the opportunity of cross

examining. dr. Stahmer, if you vent to put any quostions to the defendant

Goering, you must put them now because tho Tribunal doesn’t proposo to have

cw defendant recalled again, she-"" t dtnoss Dr. Schreiber. be produced.

Thoroforo, if you have any questions to put to the dofondont on the subject

wic Dr. Schreiber might be called to deal with, you must out them now.

Q. Did you ever receive on order from Hitler or a special authority

in order to carry out the preparat ry vorl- for bacteriological warfare?

A- Never at any timo did 1 receive such an authority or such an order

as it is mentioned in tho letter of the General nodical Officer Schroibor

addrossod to the Soviet Government,

Did you h vo knowledge of L1o fact that your medical officers Wore

woring on such proparator work?

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20 Aug-M-GES-3-la- Blaklcy

No, and this letter isn’t mentioning the word medical officers.

It is merely talking about the —

THE PRESIDTIT: One minute. ifill you just wait one minute. Go on.

Dr. Stohmer. You will confine yourself to the matters with which you have

dealt in your written application with reference to Dr. Schreiber.

Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that the working commiinity for

bactoriological warfare existed?

That such a working community existed is A fact I had no knowledge

of. That I did know, however, was that as a matter of course defensive

measures were being worked on against bacteriological warfare. It must not be

forgotten that to a certain extent such a type of warfare had been commenced

against us by dropping insects, damaging the potatoes with potato beetles; •

and measures had been prepared in order to be ready for such warfare on one

part; and then possibly, though I do not know this for certain, preparations

may have been made for the event that the opponents might carry out such

bacteriological warfare, so that we would have an answer ready.

*. Do you know Professor Blommen?

A. No.

Q• Then in that case you didn’t give him the order to prepare such

measures? %

A. No, that isn't possible.

DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution desire to ask any quest:ons?

BY SIR DAVID MAX DLL- FYFE:

• Defendant I first want to know how much of the witness Sievers'

letter you agree with or disagree with. Do you agree that the directions for

carrying out the spotton fever experiments were in the hands of the Director

of the Hygienic Institute of the Reich University of Strossbourg, Professor

Dr. Haugen, major in the Modicol Corps, end consulting hygienist to an air

fleet? Is Sievers right in saying that?

Ae That I have no means of checking. It is possible.

Q• I see. Now, are you disputing that Dr. Hnagen _______ I quote 15879

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2 0 Lug-M- GES-3-2a-Bloklcy

’’commissioned with this tr.sk by the Reichsmarschall, the President of the

Reich Research C uncil," or do you again say that you have no means of check­

ing that?

"* That I hve said quite clearly. I know nothing whatever about it; and

it is interesting, if you are speaking of the Reichsmarschall and the President

of the Reich Research Council, that that moons that the heading was thrt under

which all such research orders were c ..ing out.

“* T • put it quite bluntly, your defense to this is the rubber-stamp

defense th t you signature on the orders was merely a rubber- stom for the

equivalent signature as President of the Reich Research Council? Is that

what you want the Tribunal to understand?

No. That I am not saying by any means. If my signature has been

given, then it had its full value; but it has not been given; it has not been

explained. But as I have told you earlier, this was the heading, the letter

hecding of the orders as they were signed. These orders were signed by some

sub-lopartment which was dealing with these matters. Then and vherc I have

signed a letter, I alone assume the responsibility for it. It would be only too

easy for the prosecution to put such a letter before me or to ask Vr. Haogen

about it.

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-001329 ugustMeiB4lelDaniels

" Then you 84 that 1f instructions vent out from the Rqich Rescarch* 1 you knov nothing about them. That is your answer as I understand it,

• As far as details are concerned, of course I did not know because,

firstly, that was possible meroly fpom the poant cf Mew of tanc, Far as I am concerned, my day too only had 21, hours.

Secondly, i hava -mphasized that 1 was not an expert in ary vay but that " task was to aivo sencral instructi.cbs to those men woFking an rescaroh, an order to centralise ths research work in every sphere, and secondly, to pre. vide the very large funds required.

" u you see, defendant, the letter goes on to sa, "In accordance with instructions" - ***ch ware saz : to coie ffon the Retehsmersha1, the

President of the Resaaxch ouncu1 - "In accorda,ce with his instructions. Dr. ascen has to report about his work to the Chaef of the Luftwaee. Medical Services,

A. That is possibly it is possible that he had that order. However, ho

ea not report to mo, and the Chief c the Medical Inspectorate did not report

it is for that season that "y defense counsel has applied to have the

Chief of the Hygiene Inspeetorste apean here as a witness, in to it abundantly clear.

" So that in both these opacities - in these two of your capacities -

the Reich Research Council and the Kgdteal Departnent cf the Luftmoeee

both atins without any knowledge of yours 2 In these experments wzcconcerned "™h the eonditen cf, among others,

responsible, you say both of thase bodies were

That is what you say. Is that rieht, are you

the service f or which you were

acting without your kncvdled,e,

sure it is right ?A. That is absolutely rigkt. May I give you a brief »cason shy it must 3e

right, if you will permit me 2

" "s a moment. I would like you to consider one or two points before

you eomnit yourself too deeply to that.

Do you know that in May of 191,2 Fleldmarshal was expressing yourSPecial thanks to the S3 for their cooperation in the altitude experiments ,

20 4hugus t- VB -2 Daniels

Slit DAVID l’AXlELL FYFE: My Lord, that is document 343-FS, and it isthe

letter that begins, "Doar liolff". Wolff was one of Hirler’s personal staff.

If my recollection is correct, he was the liaison between Himmler and Hitler,

certainly, at one time.

G• (Continuing) and your second man, defendant, Fieldmarshal Milch, is sayij

to "Dear Wolff" , "I convey the special thanks from the Supreme Commander of

the Air Corps to the SS for their extensive ccoperation.w

Are you saying that Fieldmarshal Milch, when he wrote that — or when

he signed it on behalf of your Medical Department — was merely expressing a

chanson de malaise and was not c onveyin your thanks to Himnler ?

A, I not only say th t, but it has been testified to quite clearly by

Fieldmarshal Milch when he was a wit noss here. If you would care to lock at th

rec ret, you will find that he is expressly admitting that I had no knowledge

of these details.

Apart from that, Mr. Prosecutor, the situati n is this. A certain method

of correspondence was employed by us, which is perhaps not quite fitting here,

but that is the way we did it. I - -licial of a ministry is addressing

a letter of thanks to someone which is not of a pers nal nature, then he

always has to write on behalf of the chief, in the name of the chief, and I

think that must be the same form everywhere.

-- I just remind you; what the witness Nilch said was that these letters

were put in front of hi 1 by your Medical Department. These experiments mainly

and greatly concerned the Luftwaffe. Are you sayin that the thanks of

the Luftwaffe and of the Supreme Co naneer, yourself, were given without any

reference to you at all ?

A. Fieldmarshall Milch die not say that the letters were put before me.

He says they wera put before him,

Q• That is vhat i said; I said “before him”. I didn’t sug ost they were

put before you at all.

A. I t probably came through incorrectly, sir. Then he goes on to say that

he thanks him politely, because the In: ■ qctorate had told hin that thera wera

no other interests in the matter since the hi h altitude experiments had 15312

20 August~MMB-4-3 Daniels

alreacy been voluntarily carried out by our young medical officers, and he

spoke about that at length,

94 But you know, it didn’t stop with your young medical officers* Your

Service provided the equipment for Dachau for these experiments*

h. It isn’t coming through:

• I will repeat that* It did not stop there. Your Service was providing

the equipment for these experiments for Dachau.

SIR DAVI MAXNELL FIFE: My Lord, the reference to that is GB-582,

document 2428- FS, which is an affidavit by the detainee Anton Pacholegg, who

waS at Dachau. He says that the Lftwaffe delivered, here at the concentration

camp at Dachau, a cabinet constructed of wood and metal, measuring one meter

square and two meters hi h, and so on* He describes the equipment*

(Continuing) Are y u saying that the supplying of equipment for these

experiments at Dachau was done without any reference to you on these arti-

cular hir Force experiments ?

A. First, it was not the Air Force which was carrying out the experiments

at Dachau, it was the medical officer of the Reserve Air Force, Dr. Rascher,

Whether Dr . Rascher obtained the order to do so from the Hygiene Nefical

Inspectorate, or in what manner, I do not know.

Secondly, it vras not timber or various parts which were sent there, but

a so-called high altitude closet* That is something I have mentioned before,

which had to be entered normally by everyone in order to find cut the reaction

of his body to altitude and pressure conditions.

It wasn’t difficult for Rascher, therefore, to address himself to the

Inspectorate and, in technical terms, to apply for such a closet or such a

chamber without giving exact details: what types of experiments he wanted to

use it for, and whether that entialed any danger for those people who were to

be subjected to these experiments.

Thirdly, I should like to emphasize once again that the prosecution has

said — for instance, at the end of Justice Jackson’s final speech he emphasi-

3ed that I had had my fat fingers in every pie. I want to say that if I held

as many offices as I am being accused of having held, then you will understand 15833

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20 August--MB-L-L Daniels H0209 -0016

that I could not possibley have concerned myself with every high altitude pre­

ssure chamber which was used for experiments.

qo But did you not concern your self with the experiments to test the flight

clothing for the Luftwaffe when the concentration camp detainees wera dressed

in various types of flight suits with jackets ? I mean, defendant, you have

been a practical air man yourself, vith a very gallant record f service in

the air in the last war. What I am suggesting to you is that these matters * -

were matters that were not only within your administrative interest in your

positions, but they were within your personal interest as an ex-air officer.

That is why I am suggesting to you that you would have, and did have, an

interest in these experimentsa

Putting back your memory, are you sure that you don’t remember about

the Experiments on these concentration camp detainees for testing air cl thing'

Ao Sir David, I am not only absolutely sure that I don’t. remember, but I

am absolutely sure that it was not so. I mean, I vrish to emphasize that I am

not saying I de n’t rememoers I am saying with absolute certainty that this

was not the situation.

Secondly, you are absolutely right. Naturally, I would have taken the

greatest interest in the welfare of my aviators and also, naturally, their

clothinGe We, -the fliers, amongst ourselves, repeatedly discussed what the

best type of flying combination would be. Had I been told that combinations

which were heatable were bsire used, then I particularly, on the strength of

my own experience, would have said that I didn’t want them, because at. the end

of the last war I myself had worn - h a heatable suit and the outcome was

that I burnt myself all over.

+• Well, now, take another experimonto it must have been the same in your

Air Force as in ours, that one of the greatest difficulties, or one f the

things that one wanted to decl with, was those who came down, in our variance,

"who came dovn into the seas that is, what could be done and for what time

they would survive.

Do you say that you did not know about the cold test ? According + thi.

affidavit to which I have referred, Dr. Rascher conducted this col test

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20 August—•MMB-5 Daniels 7

That was for the Luftwaffe also. That was to see the resistance of the human

body to emersion in water. Do you say that you knew nothing about that

experiment also ?

4 I knew neither Dr. Rascher nor ary of the experiments he was carrying

out.' The symptoms, experienced by people wh. had fallen into the water, cau­

sed by cok were known. Against freezing, somo excellent podor, or sSutu had been invented.

Apart from that, I knew that evarythin hid been dene in order to c ns-

truct life belts in such a way that they would facilitate breathin in spite

of the sea waves, and so on and so forth. In just the same manner, recnu-

tionnary measures as to clothin and the rescuin meth is of our opponents

were experimented with and observed by us in that respect. I remember that I

once held a pamphlet of that type in my hand, but that is all.

Apart from that, people had fallen into the water for zeny, many years,

and the most suitable steps were always taken. They moved about, they were

given alsohol, and so on, in order to warm them up a ain,

Q• .jell now — ।

A. (Interposing) I beg your pardon, Mr. Prosecutor, but there is somethin

I attach great value to, and that is this. The experiments with women, and

all that sort of thing, as they have heen mantinuc here, are so utterly in

contradiction to y view regarding womsn that I would have resented such ex-

periments most deeply. not only afterwards but at the timc.

I Eg ' [-

20 August- M- JH5-1-Ahuna H0209 -0018

Q Well, now, just one other experiment then I will pass to the question

of kmnowledge of these experiments at that time. Did you or did you not know a

that the Sanitaetswesen of the Luftwaffe were, in May 19L2, working on

experiments to render seawater drinkable in which concentration carp inmates

were used?

A No, that I did not know. But, Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to say

this in reference to that experiment and how these things developed. It vrasntt

even necessary for the medical inspectorate to know that. An order was given,

and even assuming that I had given it, it didn’t necessarily allovr for the

deduction that experiments were carried out on human beings. The medical

officer had some sort of connection to Himmler and the research department, but

also, he could be connected vith the Waffen SS through Himmler. At the same

time, there were connections in which the Luftwaffe would not have been included

in any event, every systemthich was being used was being represented up above.

Q The first letter that I put to you was dated 26 May 1912. You soy

that tho facts which Field Marshal 1Lch were concerned with, I want to get it

exactly as possible, were merely formal methods of conveying the facts of that

date? Do you remember that on 28 Jul- 19L2Hitler issued a Fuehrer’s Decree

countersigned by the defendant Keitel and by the Witness Lammers, establishin

a Coordination Staff for the 4zod Forces to deal with health. That is on July 25, 19l.2- re "es to taleo ccto of the corang taskee in tho ezcna oe

health for the Armed Forces, the 1a: Un Ss,and subordinate oxonigonc" if I "ay renind so that you mnay fit it in your momoxy, •For the purpe of a oonstructive of theso ofFLojs, a sanitaxy of thoand a sanitary officer of tho Airforco be as33enod to Thet is the sanitary officer of the A=.v. The latter, that

officer of the Airforce, in a capacity as a chief of staff,

.Field Marshal Milch ™ vtiting to Irelee abcut +hese cpumonte

work undur himo"

is, the medical

that is the time when

Two months later there

was to be Chief of staff of thi;was a Fuehrer’s mr, ..—eree and one of your officersCoordination Staff,

Tribunal that you did not know about the Fuehrer's Decreeofficer vras so appointed?

you telling the

and t hat your

A Before I tell the Tribunal my ansrer, may I havQ Would you like . a look at the decre

1588 G

20 August-JH-M-5-2-AhunaH0209 -0019

A Yes.Q I have only the English copy.

Q Yes, I probaolywill be able to understand that much. Yes, that’s

just what I wanted to find out. This decree has nothing whatsoever to do •

with experiments. It begins with the following, and I shall translate it freely,

since I don’t know English too well.

"The personnel and material with reference to the Health Inspectorate

was a temporary condition and a planned condition. It is for that reason that

I decree herewith that the Chief of the Sanitary Department...." and here I don" know which translation applies. "In order to find the solution to the shortage

of medical officers, it is necessary for joint research work to be carried out."

That topic is a matter of course* The Army vras carrying the bulk of

the nodical officers ard was a1so getting the greatest nurber of requirement. so

that it to the Sanaitary inspector who was put at the head of the departsenti

Since the Air Force was cartying the second largest amount of nodical

officers, the Chief of Staff vras chosen from them.

Q The point that I am putting to you, and I think you have gathered it,

is that on July 2 , 191,2, there was this additional interest in medical

experiment. and rosoarohshich neee Hitler issue this coordinating staff. Now,

I want you just to rozembor hOT that interest in redcal mattors me an

your service. A month later, on 31st August 1912, you secona man 121ch ws writing to Himmler. 1er Lord, this is document number 313-ps, and if you like,

the State Exhibit No .163,

"Dear IIr. Himmler: Ithaink you very

I have read with great interestmuec f _>r Jour letter of 25 August

I am informed about thethe ports of Dr, Pnscher and Nro Romiberg

to give a lecturecurrent cperime nt s. T sn, i 4. t .a—- ask the two gentlemen

the near future."Cobned with the shozring of motion pictures to men

Nov.”, as sume that ilch i

question, and thatthe truth for the purpose of thi

me di cal depar tme i itthat letter was put in front of him by the hecd of your

for his signature. Assume that if you lik

reason to suppose that the head of your nodical ApartmentThere is no

the letter he put before Milch;was tellinglies in

no reason to assume that that letter is untrue

20 August-1-JH-5-3-Ahuna

HQ209-0020

and if, in Y ur service, lectures vrere given on these experiments with motion

pictures, are you still telling the Tribunal that you, as the head of the

service, knev nothing about the experiments for your service that vrre going on

• I am only telling the truth to the Tribunal and that is: It is not

by any means necessary f or the sanitary inspector to submit this letter to

Filch because... .Jas this a direct letter to Himmler or was this Ilchtg

testimony? .

Q I an nly quoting lilchts evidence, I was asking you to assume for

the moment that Mich’s evidence was true. It was suggested to Mich that

his evidence wasn’t true. I am aslcing you to assume that Mich is telling the

truth for the purpose of my question. Zhat is why I put it that way, Now,

continue your answer.

A I am afraid I didn’t quite understand you clearly* Now, did you

read a letter from Field Marshal Mich to me or did you put the testimony which

Mi.lch put here?

Q I read to you a quotation from a letter of Field Marshal Mich to '

Himmler. And I informed you, in case you didn’t remember, that Field Marshal

Milch, that that letter was put in front of him by your medical d opartnont and

that he signed it blindly. That was 1HLeh1e evidence. 1 asked you to assume

that Mich was tolling the truth. I don’t mean that for the moment. I gg

you, as head of your service, if these oxpormente wero tho subject oe oturoe and Motion Pictures to c:m ien under yur ^telthe Tribunal that you Imnevr nothing about thom?

A That I knee nochirg hon se sorathang 1 implicitly at the beginning. 1 am not Saying that ricna (

15888

20 Aug - 11 - GII - 5a- 1 - AhunaH0209 -0021

lilch vras saying an untruth. After all, he himself said (and I remember

his testimony given here'on the vitness stand and he cleared up this matter

absolutely) that he did not render a report to me about the details of

these experiments;

Puts Sir David, may I once more direct your attention to the Decree.

That decree had nothing to do with experiments but, as I said earlier, the

connection of the three armed forces vith reference to the sanitary system

is entirely a matter of organisation.

Q itness, I gust passed the decree, you knovr. I wan your ansvrer.

Do you say that you did not know that lectures and motion pictures vroro showmn

to the men under your command dealing wich those experiments? I jub want

your answer quite clearly -- yes or no. Did you or did you not know?

A ITo, I knew nothing about it. I beg you once more to take into

c onsiderobion that the Air - Ministry was a, ministry of administration, whorcas

in eno offico l doalt with tactical matters. I woula have s topped those

experimenUs — I would have done so, even if the Russian Prosecution have

twisted the facts, I still stick to my statement. In 1934 I strictly forbade

experiments to be carried out on animals, so that I cortainlyuld have

strongly forbiddon experiments to o carried out on human beings.

Q It is not for me to comment. Plenty of people have standards

vbh animals which they do not apply to follow men. But, that is a matter

of comment and I do not wish to pursue it.

How, in lovembor 1942 — you referred to it in giving your evidence__

Dr. Raschor vos trorsforred from tho Airforce o the SS, Before he wras

transferred Timjer w.cto to l.'dcu on thu vojoc* nnd described the

experiments on the bslario of huncu organic s at great heights in D rolongc

cooling and sinila bchavi or T dxd EimmJen’s letter.

Thoso rcsoarc.es which deal vribh tho chaviol of the human organism

ab groct neights, as wrull as with cnif esbations caused by prolonged cooling

of the human body in odd water, c:.l similar problems vhhicl are of vital

importance to the air force in particular

-hen he says, Unf rtunabely you hod no time recently when Dr. Raschor

20 ug - 11 - GII - 50. - 2 - Ahuna

H0209 -0022

vroboc to report on ho oxporimoncs at thollinisory for hir Avicbion.

I had put groat hopes in that report because I believe that cho di ffi cult ios

based moroly on religious objecojons vhich opposed Dr. Raschor’s

OX orimonts for which I have assuod responsibility could be climinacod.

-ho difficulties are still the sane novr as before. In thoso Christian nodioa

circles the s bondpoint is being taken that it goes without saying bhc.b a

young Goman aviator should be allowrod to risk his lifo, but that the life

of a crinincl who is not drafted into milibary service is t co sacred

for this purpose ond one should not burden oneself with this guilt."

Then Himlor goes on to say that in viov of bho importance to ho

airforce and also th the .affen SS, "hovrovor, in this connccti n, I suggest

that with the liaison betweon you and ho iff", that is, kilch and holff,

"a non-Chrisbian physician should be chorgod who woulc, at the soo time,

bo informed of the results.

Are you saying, defendant, that you never heard, although ilor had

hocrc, that Christian medical circles vrora protesting against those

exporimant s ?

A I think you noon Ilimmlor, not hitler.

Q Iinmlor, I am sorry. Although Hiu lor lmov, you say you did not

know that Christion medical circles wore protesting opparontly, according

to this letter, publicly and insistently, protesting" against those

oxperimonos? Did you not know hnb?

A ho, and they didn't protest publicly. But I a orfully grateful

uo you fur hahg pu this letter vhich, among the mey documents vhich

have boon submiobe , has not boon cloarly put. The emphasis is unique,

but I am happy that Christian medical officers thab are mentioned

by that they mean th- Inspectorcbo of my Lutvaffo. They were my nodical

offices because they alone could raise pretests. For this reason .... that i

one of bho reasons vhy Rascher had to leave the Airforco, That ius-

omplasizos ovoryhingthat I said.

Q I vront you — again, I vault you to apply your mind tothis. You and

Ilimmlor v.’-ore still on good terms in 1042, vreren’t you?

A Until the very end. Ilimnler olvoys adopted a very polite attitude

toward mo. After all, he had to.

15890

20 Aug -17- 50-3- Ihuno.

ou toro moro han thob ithin a fow days of this lobter you

ont hir box oi cisors, ond a notoboolc for Chrisbc.s,

o0S that you woro on good tor: with lirmlor. Do you noon to sny

that you novor hocrd, that Hitlor novor heard, +hat 1Silch novor told you

that the nodical officers never said to you that those oqorinonts wore

Doing carried on and were Doing protested against in Christian mo":cn1

circles? Did ovoryono conspiro, defendant, to loop you in ignorance of

overy matbor that night bo ombarrassing to you? IIcr,is 4 the asver?

-00242 0 DUG-] ~"27077^._ 1

• The oxporimento nnc lmnoulogo of thom lavo nothin

hatovor to do "ith the crococilo briefcase ene the 210561001-. I

thc last caso you oro concornod rith chrictnas presents in o--

chango for n present vhich Hirmloz had civon me for Clirintrac o:

bohal oi ho g, and I alvays vanton to return these 1-innosso: \

Socondl7, more voron’t any efforts boing nqdo to keep no obli-

vious of those oxporimonts. ho various spheres wor. clotbo tc

various pooplo. Thoy voro subdivided into isportent • ntiors and.

into atboro "hich fello into certain d oparo ont s, ann tho

TJGionc Inspectorate was one'of thom, anc it wres izmosnilo to

bring everything to my knovlodo.

Apart fro-> that, I wish to onphnsiso that at that time l di

not hen: a public protest corin 1ror Christian circles in o-ma1

raised against such oxporimont s .Such utterances touLent, in Tae4

have been possible.

THE PRESIDENT : Have pou any questions to put. Dr. stahmor?

DR. STAmTR : f have no further questions.

THE PRESIDITT : The defendant can return to the dock,

THE FRTSIDIT : Dr. Pawlil,

DRe ALIN ; Your Lordship, non I first of al?. bow to

bo allowed to apologize for net havin: been ready for suissior of my documents yesterday, I regret that this resulted i. thc

stoppage of the trial, but the defense counsel of*the oz-aniz-_ tions had boon informed that the sequence for submission of docu­

ments was different than that of the honzin- of evidence and

the sequence which I had heard uas the following s t n -■ i

Loaders, Gestapo, SS, and sD. J thorooro assumed that I would

follow the SS with the submission of documents.

15892

00256

TIE TRES-D3. : Arc you soying thrt Jou orc not

cblo non: to porticinto in cho so scion?

DR. GAVTLIK : Tos, I an ro0d-, your Tord c:ip.

Tin TRTSIDSN : I do not 1mov Lo-- -n- such misune

sten inC 0.3 3ou indiccto can hovo occurcd., bcccuso no onc tas

ivon by the Tribunal that there ould Do any alteration of the

orCor, on: council for the Ccon ants an. the de fendant on-aniza-

tions mot undorstene that thoy : ust be here v.-hon their case is

called on, on the Tribunal can't be bent . nitine ng it was

yesterday. This is the first occasion on uhic. it hns hn- onoc,

nC. tho pibunnl hopes it il2 not hnpon o ■ in.

DR. CALII : -our Jordshi2, there is a letter

dated 0.0 first of August vhch is rested on the blackboard in th

c ous cl's r o on.

the o

DR

15893

20 UC-].- U3ICV-0-6-3

T- TR SI-T2 : Dr. Covlil, - g you voron’o prosont tho other day, perhaps 1 hoc better tell you hc 6210

Tribunnl’s vishos voro and ao with rOForonco to those q-ridn-

/A Lnrgo nurbor of tk.se nffic-vits, if nol cl.1, h-vo

been SU: ■: crizcc nnd the sumcios set out in the tranecipt

before the comissonors, eno therefore, for you to i--, ~ eu : I

again of those affidavits merely creates on the transcript of tl

Tribuncl n rcpctition of th. am cpy ’.'hr ch is r Ircac- in t'o

tronocript before the co- ri o si one vs . rhe Tribunal does not doci

that, horoforo, if you will confino yourself to coentins on c

surarininc the affidavits wich :ve not been sur-arizcd before

the ooasionors, that is all bhnt is necessary, subject, of

course, to offering them in o-icencc.

anc V/hich are sot out in the ornccripo coro the com1s3Lonc

and Vhicl are set out in the transcript before tl

PR GA LIT ; '.hat wosnlt 2 intention, ov Tord-

shin. L mopol- ranter to se- :. t n 1- ---i s y c - .

hnvo boon oronslatod, anc it a fro 1 oso complctol- 2. t.

alii wits that I was coin . to w.bs 11- sub-issio . --on -

000 I hovo rocoivod onlz a part, so . t his moment I h vc not i

3 —li translation of all tl - fi"avits 1 propose c uoc,

nnc il Lorequest that I may mfwt them as and when I r coi- ■

them.

DR. CA LII : Ver- well.

(A recess is bnlzon).

15894

20 Augus t-1-JH-7-1-Saslar H0209 -0027

DR. GAWLIK: I shall present my affidavits in the order of the points

of the indictment as they appear in the trial brief against the Gestapo and

SD because I believe it would be of aid to the Tribunal by doing so. This

will, not agree with the order of the numbers but I believe that this will make

no difference because in this vray the Tribunal can see that I have endeavored

not to present any cumulative evidence.

First, I come to the point c. conspiracy, to the tasks and activities

of the SD from its foundation to the establishment of the RSHA. I have

submitted affidavit SD 27 by Dr* Albert, from the transcript of the 22nd

July 1916.

The next affidavit refers to the assertion of the prosecution that it

vras a task of the SD to obtain secret information on actual and possible

opponents of the Nazis. This refers to the trial brief against the Gestapo

and SD Roman Number Three, page 17 of the English version. In this

connection, the summary of the contents is also shovm from the records of

the Commission, of the 23rd of July 1946.

Then I have further to submit Affidavit SD No.1, by Ferdinand Zachmann,

which I hereby submit.

TT PRESIDENT: Go on.

DR. GAWLIK: The next affidavit vrill prove that the reporting of the

SD to the Party Chancellory was not for the purpose of supporting a

conspiracy. I have submitted Affidavit SD No.27 . The short summary arises

from the transcript of the 3rd of August 1916.

The next affidavit vras submitted to prove the aims, tasks and

activities of Group 3-D of the RSHA and in connection with the fact that

Group 3-D did not support any conspiracy. In this connection, I have submitter-

affidavit SD No.l0, by Ohlendorf, coming from the protocol of the 2 3rd of

July 1916.

14 next affidavit refers to the aims, tasks and activities of the branch

offices and the confidential agents in connection with the fact that the tasks

and aims of the branch offices and confidential agents vre not to support a

conspiracy. In this connection, I submit Affidavit SD 65, by Professor Ritter.

I applied for the complete translation of this affidavit but I hav not yet

15895

20 August-1-J-7-2-Sablaw

received it "because the translation ‘epartment is too busy. I call especial

attention of the Court to this affid-vit. This is one of the best lmown

German historians. I should like to read the following from this affidavit*

Question One: "Ploase toll vis about your position and occupation,

about your position?” Answers "Since 1925 I have been Professor of Modern

Historyr at the University of Freiburg.”

And I omit one sentence.

Second question: "Wer you a member of the NSDAP or any of its branches?

Answer: "No.

Third qustion: "Tera you a mesber of a resistance group against the

Hitler rogimne and were you persecut -A by it? Ansver: "Yes. I belonged to

the same place as friends of Dr. Goerdels and I was intended as Culture

Piinistor of his new cabinet. In November 1934, I vras arrested in connection

with the events of the 20 th of July* I had been placed before the court in

Berlin and on the 25th of April 1915, the Russian Army released m from prison.

THE PRESIDENT: The translction came through to us as INTovembor 1932.1

V/as it 19112

DR. GTLIK: November 1941.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. GAITLIK: Fourth question: Do you knowr the activities of the SD

Arbeitsgemeinschaft and whore did you obtain your knowledge ?" Answer: "Yes.

2 Im owledge comes from my activity as Chairman of the Purification Committee

of the University at Freiburg.

Fifth question: ITThat was the task of the SD Arbeitsgemeinschaft?"

Answer: "First, orientation of the supreme SD leadership — do not knovr

the exact names — concerning feelings among the population and the criticism

of party measures."

For the purpose of saving time, I think I can omit the next part of

this answer and then I come to the eighth question: "hat was the aim and

task or the activities of the confidential agents (Vertrauensmaenncr)?”

Answer: "The aims and tasks were essentially the same as in the case of the

Arboitsgenoinschaft, to thich the confidential agents belonged; but vhile

the other members of the Arbeitsgem inschaft vrere used only occasionally for

H0209 -

persons

in thisa few lines

I

DR. GAIILTK:

lectures

that."

know that the branch of the SD in Karlsruhe or in Strassburg

SD."

Answer:

•es?"

went to read. I place

my Posen ation of the facts agreed in ali points with the experie nce of

IThat

1, . . ---0029he confidential agents were in constant contact with

"st please consider this is theonly affidavit which I

was mt

aim of t

it." Now

tato?" Ansver •

"Did the

s on my lectures* the activity of the SO concerning me and a nutter of scientists

Tr-bunal or mor easy for then to follow if you can sunmar;, e theaffidavit

DR GANLIK:

20 August-M-JH-7~3-Saslaw

conferences for the SD

s I come to the eighth question: "Did the confidential agents havethe task to collect and pass on statements hostile to the

known as hostile to the

connection." And then I leave out

come to the ninth question

ne SD in Germany in its reports?"

party reports the SD reports were to qive

actual facts and conditions in the field

gaps and failings were to be pointed out."

Tenth question:

Answer? tyes

state and to vratch

"I do not know any facts

was the purpose and vhat was the

"In contrast to the ‘rosyl

a picture corresponding to the

of cultural policy, in addition.

Did the SD within Germany report on your lecture

had a number of reports and stenographic note

and high officials —THE PRESIDENT:

rather than reading it

be finished:

Dr. Gavlik, J think it can bemore convenient to the

I have only a few questions and then thisffidavit wil]

but you

from an SD member but

THE PRESIDENT:

especial value on this affidavit because it

from a professor who was watched by the SDvery well

I can say that I exchanged

of officials concerning thecorrespondence with a number

those men."

Eleventh question:

activity of the SB in which it was confirmed that

'Did the SD on the basis of the

occasion Gestapo measures against you?"

I leave out one question

Thirteenth que sti on •

of your lectures?" Answer: ITNo

basis of a denunciation

watching of your

Answer: "I know nothing of

estapo arrest or

I was warned once by

hich I knew of, which did n

Fourteenth question• For vhat reason wereof mY relations with some leading

warn you bef ore becans

the Gestapo but on the

come from th

you arrested?" Ansvrer, 21 Be caumen on the 20th of July,

2° -uc 11 LJG 3-1 Porrin

I if to en th question: Did the o-aninin.0030

tic contents of your lectures? 1Tho accoptad

2] rontl notthet without contradiction. In ,

t o tliolofonso L ro-

it out of tho

lectures cn.

quest

‘prtriotc cttisuo ofquestion that tho Gostune

hc.t wC.s

F ro i o urc toword t ho

of the

1

knovr c?reports which wore basod on thetho a

u .nivorsity but

Sistoonth

tho scientific faculty inhitler Rech? lot only ciontific facult

of h- tional-£ccialisrtho mcjorit of the professors were opponent

his wes known to Drtho

10 -0cll,

whole University untile l cd announcod tho dissolution of tho

cftor the we.rovontoonth question: the SD knew of

Inswor: T.tt tuo?

con Do no —1 mt co nthoecesion cnJ Gostcpo Lio a sure s

OInsvor: I i

I 1 suDmittoc. Hensthis

nn onwhich vr 3 in the

Comission of the 23 of J,. r,e• 9 •

CE

urthorrj.sin.fj from the tr he

FurthororTiero is no

tetciPti thoroforo, I shc.11 :^ko tho follcwin- y

Zirnbz.uor ndo tT,o original roports as honorep.

he

S g't orient

cnd hen to tho S—,that 111

gont

tho rly

catt.1 guo

rts which he 1

Thon, I like to st..tobwo origincl reports which I .bio°no is a report on the supplonont of

to obtain

Iscce-LorraineUl0 oct ion and r ueclcon

upploront Twoon t © Sclzburg concert life

• rCpor

The

tl

-vo furtherDollern, crisng fror

affidavit refers to the - G one nt of

ii 11 o

port cl 10

the

the

• of July

introducti

15898

20 AUG — LJG 8-2 Porrin

to the TrLc.1 Driof c.c inst the Gostepo, ond tho S is pogo 12 of

tho Englisl vorsion, cn. on po.go 67 of the English version,

in this connection 1 suhnit SD Iuor 32 cnd c. short sun.mary

by °tte Ohloncorr. To short sumcry is in the transcript c? 23

of Juli 1946. 11 o next offidevit refers to tho assertion of tho

Prosecution tl.t the SD plcyod c relo of oxocuticn of ono or

no re tasks, at least, tho indictnont c f the SB. Roncn nu orc.1

Tro of - a jo 8 of the trenslction. In this connection I sunit

sfievvit by °t to hlonorf, an tho short surncry nrising fron

the Cormnission transcript of tho 23 of July, 146.

Tho next affidavit --

TIE P-ESIDEIT: You didn’t civo the nut or of that affidavit, I don’t think.

DI, G-.WLIK: SD -umbor 23, Your Lc r c ship, I bog your perdon.

33, yes 33. mlio next affidavit refers to tho assertion of the

Prosecution that the SD cnd Gos tape toro united in a unified

police system. This is statonont of evidence Renr.n nvnoral

Two 3, end -caan "uorc.1 Throo 3 of tho Tricl riof c - inst tho

Gostpo, cnd page 3 and 17 of the Inglish version. In this

connection I have subuitted SD Nuabor Tvo by °tto Ohlondorf

the short suncry arises’ fron the transcpipt of tho 9 of Jul-- • 9

1.946.

Turtheruaoro, SD Tubez 34, a short suzczy of the contents

is in the transcript of the 23 of July/ 146. SD 1wmbc, 33 .

Dr. ^offnann, ond the short su.ury is in the transcript of the

23 of July, 146, and S ZTuu.bor 36 by "londor, and the short

surncry of the contents is in the transcript of the 23 of July,

‘46• With the next Affidavit, I went to provo that tho SD had

no executive povor. In this connection 1 l ve su”mitted tie

affidavit SD Tu or 20 by Alfred Kutser,on the short gwcu.

ci the contonts crisos from the transcript of tie o of July ’46.

The next two affidavits are a supplonont to the affidavit f

Dr. ilhenn Ioottl. mho Prosecution docuent ?s 2614. I sw-mit

in this connection a supolomenttry cffidavit SD ITurBop 37 A,

Wilh0l, HocttI.

15899

H0209 -003

20 . .ug -1 LJG 8-3 Porrin H0209 -0032

—E P-SLDEIIT: Thot hc.s boon suruttod to tho Comiscionor, hcs it?

DR. C-lU-I: Yos, Your Lordship. Tho surniry is in tho

transcript 01 the 23 of July, '46. I have asked that this

affi evit bo translated corpplotoly; ond 1 sunit the conploto translation,

1 further suuittod on this point SD ITvnbor 38 by T00

Gchrenn, ond the short suzmery of this afric vit is in 6: e trona-

crig of the 23 of July, 146.

"ith the next affidavit -went to prove that tho s- had no

influonco on tho selection of S. fuehrers. This is a st tonont

of Jvidonco, Renan nunorcl Throo 3, pego 16 c? the Tria’’ „:of

CC ins - ho Gestapo and SD. In this connection I subnit affidavit

SD 2 by llax Juottner. Tho short suncry of the affidavit is in

the transcript of the 9 of July, 146,

—ith the next seven affidavits 1 want to prove that tho

SD and no influence on the selection of Party leaders, Thhic refers to S+tonont of Evidence, Ronen nunornl Throo 3, po.co 18

of tho English Trial riof. I subrit’ SD Numb or 5 by Otto

Frohzor, for the foruor Gau Lci nf rankon. SD Iubor 6 "y Utto

Biodcrnenn for t:.c fornor Gau Murincic, SD“--op 7 . s,.Uoozroithor for tho fornor Gau Coringic, SD lTurbor 3 1- Carl

Wahl for the fornor Gau Schvbon, SD ITumbor 0 1 ?cvl w.

for the fornor Gau Orondonburc 1osa Es. SD Iubor 10 by -0pt

H C-enn for the former Gau of Uppor Silosin and host me:.

Sav th.

Furthormoro, SD 39 by Adcu Toortsch for the fornor Gau of

PPo- - a.ria, I do net yet have the trenslction of this. I shall hand it in later.

-ho next emfidevit refers to the assertion of the Ppococutic thct to SD cxanlno the Loyelty enl rolicallty cf tho et.to o-

ficicls- Stc.toment of Jvidonco Hlonen nuzbor Thrco - ci’ th. . -0

3rio-, FnCo 13 of tho aclish vor-sLon. In this connection I

havo auzusttod affidavit SD 3 by Tiornor Uc,i. no shopt sumezy of We contents is in the transcript of the 9 of

15900

2° 4uG 1 LJG 8-4 Porrin

"ow, 1 cono to critaos eginst 20c.c0. uith tho noxt affidavit

I went to prove tlac.t the SD, in tho borlor instance of August of

1939, tho SD was not ozployod, cna that tho non.bors of tho so

did not he vo any kmnovlodgo of it. Stetonont of Evidence, Ronan

nuzhox Fivo, pago 23 of the English version.

15901

20 Au -l-GH-9-1 ynos

-0034

in this connection affidavit SD II, by Dr. larx. The short smmery of

the contents is in the transcript of O July 1946.

How I eerie to the war crimes, "Statement of Evidence" VI A of the Trial

Brief against the Gestapo and SD, ptgo 25 of the English version. In this

connection I submit affidavit SD 41 by lari lcinz Bent. Tho summary of the

contents is in the transcript of 23 July 1946.

I have , furthermore, submitted'on this point SD No, 42 by halt or

Schollonborg• The summary of the contents is in the trosctipt of tho 23

July 1946.

I shall submit tho complete affidavit of SD 43 by Heinz Tonningor and

SB - by -obo Ohlondorf. The sumnary of the contents is in the transcript

of 23 July 1946.

- haze submitted on this affidavit SD 45 by Ervin Schulz. The suary

of tno contents is in the transcript of 23 July 1946.

I have submitted on this point SD 43 by Otto Ohlond rf. The

sumary of the contents is also in the transcript of 23 July 1946.

Tioh the next affidavits I went to prove bhcb tho memhers 2 f o

Lol oqbschnisbo — the Leaders Units, 'the Aussonstollo — Bronch efPtccs,

am. the Vortrauensmannor — confide nticl agents — had no Imnowrlod o of the

activities of the Einsatz cruppen in the East.

-n this connection I have submitted SD No, 47 by Tilholm Duorhof, which

refers to lmnovlodgo in the former Gau in South lonnover and Braunsciuroi .

SD 43 by erl Icinz Bent refers to Imcwlod^c in the former SD sector in

Socbsin, -roslau, Duossoldor?,

49 by Adolf Kott refers to lmovrledgqn the for SD sector for

Ncus c.d id Saarbruoclcor

Those three affidavits were submisbed on 23 July 1946

ieh -h° next —fidavib, hich refers t the assertion of the Prosecutio

nt tho SD Abschnitt Telsidb participated in the liquidation of Jov

isbs in the border incidents, I shall submit a comploto trens on of

my affidavit SD 12 by ilholm Siop ■ ary of the affidavit is in the

ti- nscript of £ July 194

2 Aug — 1.1 - GII - 9 - 2 - IIcynos0035

-ho next afidevit refers to -'’rosecution Document PS 1-175 ond n

Ssrsenon of Evidence” VI-A of the Triol Brief, page 25 of the English

verson. In this connection I submit the affidavit of Corti Broitor, SD 69.

dth the next affidavit I vent to prove that the SS itnjor Puetz, zdontione

on PGC° 26 of the English Trial Brief against the Gestapo and SD, did net

bolong to the SD but the Gostopo,

tn this connection I have submitted affidavit SD 50 by Heinz Temingor.

The summary is in t. • ‘ranscript of 25 July 1946,

The next affidavit refers to "Statement of Evidence” VI F of the Trial

Pric ", page 54 of the English-tent.

Tho subject of evidence in Prosecution Documents PS 553, PS -193, ona

PS 532, is not the SD Inland Anrt III or the Foreign Information Service

of VI or VI, but the Security Police. In this connection I submit affidavit

S. 52 by lholn Keitel. The summary of the contents is in the transcript of

23 July 19-16.

Tho next sub-act of evidence io that tho SD did not por-tisato au 1ync2

Juotioo. I havo submitted SD SI by eltog Sebolleaborc. Summary of the

co. cents is in the transcript of 23 July 1916.

Burthomoro, SD 68, by Hane Steiner. The summary of the octotte ao an

the transcript of 3 August 19-16.

Tho next bwo affidavits refer to the assertion 6f the Prescaution that tSD . rdered prisonons in tho prisons, in

liberated by Allied troops, "Statement

Enc ish version of the Trial Brief,

ordor to prevent their boing

of Evidence” VI J, pngo 56 of the

I havo submitted SD ] 3

is t e broscript of 9 July

sa_o transcript.

by Horst Lavbl. T.e sum-,, cA L1. . ." "--J O 50 convents

1940, CD 14, by.Fritz Tolfsrandt, is in tL,

tno X rosect t the Scip in the forcible co

and private propertyo cm ent nco" VI K, pegc the 5A version. In

connection I have submitbo The sur the contentsis script of 9 July 1946

15903

20 Aug - H - GII _ 9 - 3 _ laynos

Tho noxt affidavit refers to the assertion of the Prosooution that the

SD porsooutod Jows. "Statement of Evadcnoc" vI A, English Trial Brief.

I have submitted in this connection SD 16, by Halt or Koinz. m. summary

o tho contents is in the transcript of 9 July 1946. Horoovor, SD 17,

by 1 Housnann, is in the .mo tr-azsoflyt. A16o, sD 6s, sy maa FHooecho1,

in tho transcript of 23 July 1946, and SD 54 by Dr. Laubo in the .one

transcript/

the next refer to tho cherbo against the. SD of persecution of the church,

"Statoront of Evadonoc" VII B, page 63 of the English text of the Trial Brief.

I have suonattod in this oozdiootica SD 55, sumery ce tho oontozts

being fa the t ransoript of 23 July 1946. TTaltor Kainz, SD 18, an tho

transcript of 9 July 1946.

I shall submit later a complete translation of SD 19 by Helmut Fromm,

summary of the contents being in the transcript of 9 July 1946.

15901

H0209 -0036

003720 iugust~]I-JF-1O-1-Lesser

"ith the next affidavit I want to prove the methods, aims, and tasks of

the SD in the Government General. I shall later submit a complete translation

of Affidavit 3D 56 by Helmut Fromm, sunary of contents in the transcript of

23 July 191,6.

"ith the next affidavit I want to prove that the Police in France trere

called SD. I have submitted in this connection an a f f icavit by Dr. Laube,

3D 23, summary of contents in the transcript of 9 July 1946, *

The next affidavit is submitted as proof that the members of the Gestapo

and -IPO in Belgium and Northern France vore the S3 uniform with the SD

insiunia. I have submitted SD 21 by Walter Hofmeister, summary of contents

in the transcript of 9 July 1946.

With the next affidavit I wrant to prove that the members of the SD in

Belgium and Northern France did not belong to Amt III. I have submitted SD

125 byalter Hofmeister, summary of contents in the transcript of 9 July

1916.

ith the next affidavit I vrant to prove that belonging to the SD Amt III

during the war was in general not voluntary but vras based on legal order.

In this connection I have submitted SD 57 by Bernhard Dilger, summary in

the transcript of 23 July 1916; SD 58 by Dr. Ehlich in the same transcript;

SD 59 by Karl Heinz Bent in the sametranscript; SD 60 in the same traz script •

and I submit SD 21 by Oskar Eisele, summary of the contents in transcript of

9 July 1916,

ith the next affidavit I want to prove that withdravral from the SD was

not possible. I su omit SD 22 by Wrner Day, summary of contents in the

transcript of 9 July 1946.

The next three affidavits refer to the tasks, aims, and activities of

Amt VI. I shall submit later, SD 51 by Walter Schellenberg: the sumnary of

the contents is in transcript of 23 July 1916. Furthermore, SD 62 by

- iter Schellenberg, summary of contents is in the same transcript. I subm-

f rthermore on the tasks and activities of Amt VI-3, affidavit SD 66 by

Otto Sorzeny.

The nezrb affidavit refers to the aims, tasks, and activities of Amt VII

j. submit this affidavit provisionally. The Commission did not deciclo Wiethe15905

(

i.-giye

20 August-I-JF-20-2 -Lesser

0038

A VII was chargod. The chairman of tho Comi.ssion told mo that tho

Tribunal would decide this question. It is SD 63 by Dr. Dietl, which I shall

submit later.

The next affidavit refers to the assertion of the Prosecution that the

imdisration offices had the purpose of carrying out evacuations with the aim

of poxanont colonisation of the occupied territories, the destruction of their

national existence, and thus constantly expanding the German border. (Trial

Brief against the SS, III G, pages 33 and 35 of the German translation.) I

have submitted in this connection SD 61* by lartin Sandbergor, summary of the

contents in the transcript of 23 July 191,6.

Bow I have an affidavit to disprove the affidavit F-961, submdttod by the

Frosocution in the examination of Dr. Hoffaan. I w not able to subnat this

affidavit to the Commission because to Comsission had already concluded its

activity when I received the affidavit. Therefore I ask that I ay be

allowed to submit this affidavit under SD No. 65.

TIG PRESIDENT: You have one 65 already, haven't you? It camo

through the translation.

DR. GAULIK: That should bo SD 71, your Lordship. From this

affidavit I shall read the following, briofly: "parst, to provo knowledge

about the facts given, I, Georg Sclirebel, was in Brunswick as Government

Councillor in 1939, temporarily in the Reich Criminal Police Office in Berlin,

and from 1911 to 194,5 as Section Chief for Personnel Questions in Rain Office

Security Police of the Reich Ministry of the Interior. From January 191 on,

I was also in charge of the Personnel Department of the Secret State Police,

Gestapo. 1 last rank was Rogicrungsdiroletor and SS Standartonfuchrer.w The statement: "At no time in the existence of the Gestapo and the SD were

there instructions or decrees from the Chief of the Security Police and the SD,

or the Reich ministry of the Interior, according to shich tho aotivat oz mno Gestapo, at the head or at its aconcios taroughout the Rich, vns to so

influenced or supavicod by the SD. The agencies of the Gestapo were at all

times completely independent. The independence and the separate division of

the State Police made general influencing by the SD impossib1c. sucgc would not have been permitted by the Office Chief of IV or the Chic- of the

15906

-003920 August-l-JF-10- 3- Lesser

Security Police because this would have interfered with the actual

responsibility of the State Police." I ask that I may be allowed to submit

this affidavit when I have the translation.

Now I have a collective statement on 6,123 affidavits. I have not yet

received the translations. I have onl the French translations and I ask tha

I may be allo;red to submit the French translations. I submit the list on

these affidavits. From my collective statement I ask to be allowed to read

subject 1G regardine participation of SD members in executions in the areas o:

commmitmnent. I have 110 affidavits on this subject of the agencies of the S.

from all parts of Germany for the time from 1939 to 1945, vhich s tabo the

following: "The agencies and members of the SD Amt III had no knoulodro of

the participation of SD members in executions in Einsatzkommandos in the East.

15907

20 Auqust-I-JF-l1-1-FitzecraldHO209 - 0040

NoT I come to the presentation of my documonts. First, I would like to

submit that my documents are also numbered according to the Trial Brief arainst

the Gestapo and SD. The first document refers to the charge of conspiracy.

irst I submit as Document SD-1 an arrocmont between Himmler and

Ribbentrop to establish a uniform German intelligence service. The document

has already been submitted under USSR 120. I quote from this document the

folloving: “The secret intelliponcc service has the task, so far as foreign

countries are concerned, to gathor for the Roich information in the political,

military, economic and technical fields. The Fuehrer has orderod in addition

that the secret intelligence service, so far as foreign countries are

concerned, should be regulatod in accord with the Reich Minister of Forcirn

Affairs ."

Number 2 is an excerpt from the spocial plan of the security police and

the SD, I shall not read this document but I will call the attention of the

court to the fact that althouph Amt III and Amt VI vrero united vith Amt IV and

Ant V, Amt III and Amt VI had no police tasks.

The next six documents Sp-3, SD-4, SD-5, SD-6, SD-7 and SD-8 bclone

together- They are excerpts dealing with the Reich's Ministry of Justicc;

. SD-3, the Reich Traffic Authority; SD-], the A~oncy of the Reich Food Office;

SD-5, tho Reich Forestry; SD-6, Reich's Ministry for Armament and Tar

Production; SD-7, the Reich's Ministry for Food and Agriculture; SD-8, the

cooperation of those agencies with tho security service.

I call the special attention of the Ceurt to the tasks set for the SD in

these documents. I furthermore submit theso documents as evidence that these

things Trere the task of the SD. Thay had to cooperate not only with the

State Police, but with all agencies of the State.

The next document is SD-12. With this I want to prove that the SD, in

the years around 1936 did not have the significance assigned to it by the

Prosecution.

The next document is SD-13. It is an excerpt from the circular decree of

the chief of the SIFO and the SD of tho 16 of October, 1941. This .document

shows that the SS and police jurisdiction effected only the regular members of

the SD, not the honorary mombece. The majority of the members of the SD were

15908

2 0 Augus —-JF-11-2 -Fitz gerald0041

honorary and were not under the 33 and police jurisdiction.

The noxct document is SD-1L. Fourteen is an excerpt from a decree of

the -arty Chancellery. "Only the Ioheitstracgor of the Movement from

hr i ’letter up are entitled to issue political evaluations or certifications

of political reliability."

This document refers to the Trial Briefs acainst the Gesteo and the SD,

S ■ tenent of Evidencc, HI and IV. The same subject of evidence concerns the

nc: t document SD-15. It is an cxccrpt from the RSIIA n the 1st of Junc,

1910, This decree shows that from the 1st of July, 1940, the information

bureau of the Amt I, SD, will be transferred to Division IV C 1. That is

for political information of all kinds. The Gestapo Amt became comoctont

and the Gestapo had no support from tho SD.

The next document is SD 15-a, formerly called PS 3335 submitted by the

Pros cution, but the SD was not at all thc information service of the Party.

Withi.n its politic' 1 organization, the Party had its own political report.

And from the Krcislcitor on up, it had expert technical reports from all

offices.

Document SD-16 is an excerpt from tho memorandum by Hitler about the

task of this four-year plan.

VTith SD-17, I want to prove that theactivit of the nembors of the SD

in the occupied territories was not voluntary, but vas bas ed on Lc al order.

I quote from this document "Refusal of departmental personnel to undertake

employment in occupied territories."

15909

HO209 - 0042

2 0 -UC-A-PIZGIR/LD-IH-]1- 1

1 -13o quote "Tor mombcrs of poroonnol in public service to

0‘ cpt ork in plncos other than the rogulor place of service

h s on principle been opprovod. Since a limitation to the Moich

te ribo 3 is not ntendod, a staff nonbor -- providcc tho tors

of the special service order have been compliod witl, o:ocinlly

0O in oi e of or-- has to follov adobochmont in t: o occupied

territories too.i

ith the next docuonts -10 to SD-22 I went to re­

fute tho assertion of the Trosocution that the sr h-scocinl

re a lat ions in iris oner-of- hr Carps in order to socro-abo

racinl3 uCosiroblo persons an- to execute them m-;.1 - rie" a-

• ini 6 hc Costopo anc the S, pt-ton ent of Tvidonco, VI-.

in tho case of Docunont sD 18, it is an o:cor- Iron t

Chief of th Security Police and the S. I call the attention of

the -ouzt to tho £ilo note, IV—. -hio refers to the juzisdictio:

o- the octnpo. -ho decree is furihororo addressed to all stote

rlico officers and the comen cr o: the security police in

Lublin.

■' ocunont ST)-19 in the next Cocunont. I should like to

call too a tontion of the court to the file note t ,+Tron hin Cocnont. 'The regional and branch offices of the

Cocbn2o are ogoin requested to bring to a rapid conclusion hos.

oxcinations vhich are still under wej,3

ocunent -20 is next. nis docuront concerns the la : r c on1i t tuont —

- — FRS-- : Dr • Cavlik, what is the necning

SD-19, ParaGraph 2? The writing refers ocpocinlly to various

fiod and then "No. 9242 Top Gocrot, according to vhich the

soloction of all priconors o. v; r io to benndo in the futuro in

onzn1 “ovornment only."' Tov do you select prisoners of tn

nnb does that mcan?15910

2 0 AUG-A--ITZ GLRALD-IH-11-2 H0209 -0043

DR. GATILIK 8 Tliot is the charge vhich the Prose­

cution lies madc. I vant to poivo that this aS done by the

Gostopo alone. In this decree it is ordered the tn these selections

are to be carried out only in the Covornont General in the future.

This is no t relevant in this connection, hour Lordship. I am

only interested in Taragroph 3,

TIC FRESIDEIIT : But it is a document of the SD, is

it not? It is an administrat ivc ruling, is it not?

DR. CAILIK : hour .ordship, the Chief of the Sec­

urity Police and the SD had 70 offices. for this re son it is

import-nt which of his offices acted. Office 4 was the secret

Police, Cc: tn po. Office 3 ves the domestic SD. Office 5 was the

Boroirn Service. Each of these offices hcd its orm chief. Office

4 is another organization. ver those offices rcs the Chief of

the Security Tolicc of the 3., This title Coos not show what the

SD had to Co with it. One must examine which of his offi os did

it, whether it was Office 4, 3 or G, And where I have called your

Lordship’s attention to the file note, IV-A, that was Ofico 4,

the Secret State Police, Gestapo. "his shows that Officer. 3 and 6

had noching to do with this matter, only Office 4. This is again

shown by number three hich 70008 empress ly only to the State

Police offices.

TH IRESID-12 3 Very well, we will ajourn no.,

(A rococo wea taken until 1400 hours.)

15911

-12-1-Karr

AFTERNOON SESSION

(The honrine rcconvener 1400 hours, Lugust 20, 1946).

DR. Gi/LIN: In nsvor to the last question of y our Lor ship. I think it

ol- 3sist the Tribuncl if I briefly incicntod the direction o? my evi 'once

o . whot - propose to establish by moons of that do cument.

It is cssumed by the Gestapo t • Security Police nne SD were inovendent

orsoniznti nS• The Gestapo is inlict:d separately, the Criminal lolico is not

indictoc an the SD is indictod as a unit of th. SS. Above all of then st oc

the Chiof of the Security Police an the SD an" in that small way it can he

com or cd with the petition of the defendant Gocrin,, who s the Supreme

Comnon or of the Airforces, Prussian Minister an1 President, Primo binistor and

Hunting Master. Thus, from the addition of the Security Police and the SD you

cannot draw the conclusion as to which was which and that becomes ap-aront fr-m

rhe raferenco and filo numbers on the people who ."cult with those files m-1

am trying to establish that by means of my document.

j. now come to ocvment SD 20, hi ch deals with the emloymont of Soviet

Russian prisoners of war. One paragraph deals with the very question which

your Lordship addressed to me ith reference to prcvi us do cumonbs and shaltherefore, rend the locument.

"In order to avoid any dolny in the removal of nourly incoming prisoners

of w into the Reich, the selection of political commissars and directors by

“ebaclments of the S ourity Police will be carried out in the future in the

General Government only. In the General Government the selection is further

carried out by the Sccurity Police."

ith th t I am trying to osta _sh that we are here purely concerned

with the measure of the Sccurity Police and not the SD.

It then goes on to say:

,;ln order to insure a more rapid execution, the Socur ity Police will

reinforce its detachmonts in the Genoral Govornmont."

I then pass on to document SD 21, In connection vrith this document, I

bog to draw the Tribunal’s attention to the file reference IV, that is to cc ■ "e

wo are concerned with measures of Department IV end Department IV was the

15019

20 -A-TES -12 -2 -Korr HO209 -0045

Secret Stote Folice, The Gestapo. Hn it becn the SD then the file reference

would have been III or VI.

THE PRESIDENT: In the document you have just been dealin with you

have got 2 III E at the top, and ycu have III E a little bit further down.

ijR. GA ILIK: Your Loriship, the higher one is the genoral colloction

02 decrees of which there are several volumes which I got from the library

here and it is with reference to this general collection of decrees that

2A HIE refers to and then the file rcfcrence is IV A (1 c) 2468 A B/42 G.

THE PRESIDENT: Just by the first of inril, 1942, there is III E.

that does that mean — OI! File No. 2F 24. 73, ' prisoner ofrwrar organization

3 E?

DR. GA LIK: I have not got that. Your Lordship, I have not rot thot

horo, I do not know at the moment.

T IE PRESIDENT: Immediately undor the "ords: "re: labor detachments

for agricultural work.:

DR. G.I IK: Mar I beg to ask -pour Lordship, did you refer to SD 21?

That is a military file reference, your Lordship. It says 0117 Supreme

Comuand of the armed forces, file rcforcnce of the armed forces chief of

prisoner of war organization III E and that III E has nothing tc do with

De p or taent III’

T. E PRESIDENT: All right, go on.

DP. GAWLIK: I now come to ‘ ent SD 22, as we are there concerned

with extracts from the directives for the detachments of the chief of the

Security Police to be assigned to the prisoner of war camps for enlisted men.

Tho date is 17 July, 1941.

I bog to draw the Tribunal's n bention in this connccti n. to the fact

that the chief of the insatzcommand 3 are ordered to get in touch with the

chief of the nearest State Police office or the Commandor of tho Security

Police and the SD*

In the case of the commen.or it is a commander similar to that of the

Security Police an.-' SD; he too had several sub-deportments o III wras SD, IV

was State Police, V was Criminal Police and so this type of commander does not

20 ‘u S-12-3-Karr0046

ay cither with which deportments we are concerned or which dopcrtment w orkod

on it

I shoul1 like to row the attention of the Tribunal to the fact, however

whicl is contained

"Is a matter

in the foliowin.- sentence

of principle, such communications must for information

bo communicated to the RSH IV A 1,”

From that it becomes evidence that the measures were only dealt with

in Department IV that is the State Police, and that the Department III had

to ith it

7 a 9 1D.L

20 August-A-B-13-1 Blakley

H0209 -0047

The following documents SC-23 and up to SD-28, inclusive, refer to

the allegation on the part of the prosecution, according to which the SD had

carried out the decree "Kugell Bullet, I refer to the trial brief against

the Gestapo and SD statement of evi'ence 610, and I shall first of all deal

with Document SD-23.

The document has already been presented by the prosecution; but it Vras

given the number 1650-FS, being the teleprint letter from the Ges tap; to the

sub-department Aachen and to all leading state police departments, I qucte,

in order to prove that here, too, we are merely concerned with measures by

the Secret State Police.. the Ges emo.

"To this j I order the following 2 1» The regional offices of the Stat

Police are to take over the recaptured escaping Fi officers from. the Stalag

Commanders and to transfer them to the Mauthausen concentration camp, accor­

ding to procedure which is customay till n owunless circumstances make a spe­

cial transport necessary.

"2 The 0117 has been requested to inst act the EV camps that for the

purpose of camouflage the recaptured persons should not be delivered direc­

tly to lauthausen but to the com etent local office of the State PolicecI

I then come to Document SD-24.

THE PESIDENT: Thy do you leave out the fact 6hat those, documents

were addressed to Inspectors of the Sipo and the SD ?

DRo GAWLIKs Your Lordship, the case of the inspectors is the same as

that of the chief of the security Police, in that it indicates the c mmanders

The inspector was above the leve f the Criminal Police, above the State

Police a and above the 3D. That is to say, he was exercising all three func-

tions *

THE PRESIDENT: Accordin'- to this he vras an inspector of the SD,

DRo GALLIK.3 He was Inspect.-- of the SD; but that would not allow the

conclusion that he was also simultaneously inspector of the Security Police

the Sipo, in the same person, that when carrring out that activity he was

carrying cut activities in the capacity- of the inspector of the Sipo,

20 August—A-MB-13-2 Dlakley

me are here concerned only with personal union but to c unteract that prisoner

of war were only to be taken there by the regional offices f the State Folic

that the SD Service Department had nothing to do with ita it says the re­

gional offices of the Soate Police are to take over the recaptured prisoners.

as the inspectors of the Security Police had jurisdicticng they were acve

the regional. Police Department and hai control of these mecusres of the State

Police in his capacity of the Secucity Police. Also simultnne usly he was

inspector of the SD; but that does not mean that these things were to be

carried out by the sub—departments ' the SD,

I come to Documenb CD-24s It has already been presented under FS-1165

and in this oonncicn l beg to drew the attention of the Tribunal to the

fact that this is signed by Vuzller, vho, as is known to ths Tribunal, was

the chief of Department TV. This a. ..in shows the sole res, nsibility of the Gestapo.

Document SD-25 is e circular -ocree from the chief of the Political Po­

lice of the SD, dated the 20th of October, 19L2, which deals vith the treat­

ment ox escaped Soviet Russian pris.ners of war, and aain I beg to draw the

attention of the Tri uno 1 to the file reference, which is EV.

I will now quote: "I request that the regional main offices of the

State Police instruct all the polio. offices f the area, even if it has al­

ready been done, acccrcing to Article 3 of the decree of the High Command f

the Armed Forces of the "th of May, 1912,

"ay I say to yur Lcrdsoip in this connection that if this had ben nged

to ths tasks of the SD Department then the SD Service Deptrtment would also have had to be ermed,,

IEE 33 Ter ? Da, Genljk, I don’t think it is doin ary good at all

to argue each document over. You must make your final speech at some time? and

unless there is angchin; really very important in a particular document which

you want to draw our attention to - that we can really consider it before you

make your final speech, you had much better leave the argument upon the docu­

ments until you get to your final speech. This is simply westing your time without having any useful purpose at all.

H0209 -

20 hugust-A.MB-13-3

DR. GA.LIK: Your Lordsbip, I only did___

Blakley

HO209 -0049

THS Hs-ENT: Vel1, up to the present you have commented upon each Pocu-

nentas far as I can see, sD-22, SD-23, SD-21, sD-25, cach cne them; and you are going through the book like that® thy don’t you offer them all in evidence

in bulk; and then if you want to draw ur attenti n to ary particular decu-

nent for some particular purpose as I say, because you think it is important

and we should consider it before you c.- to make your final speech, do so.

But don't spend time in just explainin what each document is. We have to hear

all the other organizations before we come to hear your speech.

Dn. GMILIK: Ycur Lordship, I only did it because I gathered from the

question your Lordship put to me that there was some lack f clarity with re­

ference to this point, namely, the position of the Chief of the Security Police

of the SD and the commander and tha inarecters.

THE PRESIDENT* I only put a qucet n to y u because you were goine thr u-h

each document in turn and I couldn’t w ler stand what the documents were about.

DR. G-vLI: Documents 27 and 28 also deal with the allegation on the

part of the prosecution regaining the decree "Kuccl" Bullet. May I gerhaps

"ote from Document No, 28a "In as far as Soviet Russian prisoners of war

are returned prisoners of war captured and brought back t the camp according

to this order, they are in every case to be surrendered to the nearest office

of the Gestapo."

The following documents, SD-29 t SD-,2, deal with the accusation raised

against the SD y the Prosecution, according to which they are to be held

responsibly for the institution and Gesignation of concentration camps and

for the transfer of political and racial undesirable persons into concentration

and extermination oam,s for the purpose of forced labor and mss extermination.

That is page 43 of the British trial brief. These documents show that the

SD did net in any way participate in these measures; and, if 1 may, 1 should

like to read one sentence of Document SD-29, "In the future, restrictions

of -ers-onal liberty in accordance with Article 1, of the Decree fcr the pr -

tecthn of People and State f 28 February/ 1933, may be ordered only by

the Secret State Police Office with ef.. -6 for the entire state, territory and

20 August-A-B-]3—4Blakley 0050

by the governors of Provincos ane aresidents of government districts, by +ho

polloe president in Berlan and by the state polico (Gestapo) branch ofekcsc for the local sphere of their authcrit-w

Fron Docuaont 82-31 1 qucte: "Protective custody can be used as a

measure of the Secret State Police in order to e moat any activities hostile

to the state and the people. Only the Secret State Police is entitled to the

decree of protective dustody.t

H0209 -

20 nug-I-GES-14-1-Daniols .

Document 37 deals with the allegation by the prosecution according to

which the SD had also administered concentration camps. I shall, therefore,

quote one sentence from the documents

"The comp commandant of concentration camps is in charge of any ccon nic

plan of the SS within its sph.ro of organization.”

ho administration of the camp als becomes part of document SD 38.

ThE .RESIDEIT: I can’t see any int in drawing our attention to that

document at the present time.

DR. GLII: In the trial brief the accusation has been raised against

the SD that they also had administered o acentrati on cemps.

T IT TRESIDEIT: But this document doesn't show thtt they did not.

DR. GAvLIK: Document SD-37 is a decree from the Chief Economic Depart­

ment of the Administrative Main Office. That was a completely different

department, which had nothing to do vith the RSHA

THE PRESIDENT: -t seems to me to be quite vague as to who the comp

commandants f concentration camps are. As I say, it doesn't seem to me to

be a document vhich it is ncccss ry to refer to nt this stage.

Da. GLIK: I then refer to docum at number SD-39. There it says:

"The transfer of the inspect rate of the Concentration Camps into the Economic

Aministr ti on Mnin Office has eon carr.- out with the full agreement of all

main offices concerned. "

From this it becomes apparent thos, first of all, concentration camps

were under the j risdiction of the Insp ctorate of the Concentration Camps, and

that they w rc then tronsforrod to the R Economic Administretion M nin Office.

Howovor, that w- s part of the RSH.

The fact that concentration camps were under the jurisdiction of the

Inspectorate of Concentration Coms als : becomes, appier nt from the previous

do cumon t, S D-3 8.

I beg to refer you to document number 40, in which it is explicitly

siotod:

THE FRESIDHTT: (Interposing): You are not taking the slightest notice or

what I said to you. Y u are going thro. h every document, or practically every

15010

20 lug-A-GES-14-2-Daniel gH0209 -0052

"ocument — not every document. You bogan this by saying that 29 to 42 dealt

vith concentration comps. Then you vrcab to 37; then you went to 38; then you

wont to 39. They really don’t help tho Tribunal at all. You h-vo tsld us

that 29 to 42 referred to transfer to c noontration camps. Tcl1, that is

dui te en u' h• Unloss there is a document which is really important, which wo

should study before we hear you innko yc r speech, the sunmorr that 29 to £2

deal with transfer to concentration on s is quite enough.

DR. GA.LIF: I had thought that I would be assisting the Tribunal by

drewing their attention to tho fact that concentration comps came under the SS

Economic Chief Aiminis trotire Doportnen’ and not the RSEL. Only for that

reas n di' - discuss those furthar 1lsewuonte.

Document SD-43 to 49 lecl with tin nocusation that the SD had portici-

pated in the deportation of citizens f the Eastern Territories for the pur-

.pose of forced labor, an". that they nr the task of supervising this f reed

SD-43 shows the jurisi tion of the State Police.

I quote from these documents onl che following. From document 43,

under figure "2":/

"The tasks arising from the cmgloyment of Soviet Russians are to be

coordinated vith the Soction and the C to Police, if proper, from the

Regional Office,and are to be handled a criminal police officer under his

direct Chief of the State dice Rogional Office."

I n W quote from Appendio 1 to, Documont 43 one sentence: "The rocruit-

inr of la or rem the former Soviet Rus inn territory is carried out by

recruitment comissions from the Reich Ministry of Labor. The recruiting

cormissions of the Reich Ladr 21 nistr will create recepticn camps."

Document SD-50 denls vith the Comando Order. I be.i to drovr the

Tribun il ’ s attention to the wrords ".are to be handed over to the Security Police."

Documents SD-51 up to and inoluc. ■ 3 deal with the assertion on +1

part f the prosecution that ho GD h.d the task of protecting civilians wh

had lynched fliers belonging t. the All ’ Nations.

20 Aug-A-GES-14 -3-Danio) sHO2O9 -0053

Document SD-54, already in evidence under USA 504, PS-668,deals with

tl • carrying o ut of ’the Nncl ■ and Nebel decree'.

ocuments 8-55 up to and include : 57, deal with the assertion on the

P rt o tho pros cution that the SD, i summry procecdins, had arrested

citizens of occupied territories and took them bof're tribunals and courts and

punishod than.

I b°G t- draw the attention of t Tribunal to document SD-55, which is

.Is? --316 , an fron that I shall quote one sentences "Forcig nationals are

in the future to be turned over to the police.”'

i quote one regulation, one sent, co, from document SD-56: "Pennl

aotions of Jews are punishod by tho nolico."

Doczancats 53, 53-a, 53-3, ond E-6 deal with 'the assertion on the part

of the prosecution according to vhicl o sD had cooperated in tho conf isention

by force of private property. $

From Document SD-58 I shall quoto ne sentences

"The confizcntion will e declare! by the main office of the State

Polico in favor of the Reich oi Greater zneny,"

SD-59 ana SD-60 deal vith the tiird-degroc methods durins interrogations.

15 C.

20 Aun ust-A-J-15- 1-Ahuna

-0054

in this connection x bor to drenr tho TyLbunal’s attention to Rozsan MumoraJ. IV which deals with the jurisdiction of Departrant EV, Soczot Stato Police. In document SD-60 are the oxistine roqulatione applicable to theSccurit rolico. The documents

reforence to the SD according to6o- up to SD-6l deal trith the illegality in

which crimnes against humanity are to besutaittod. SD-60-a up to 63 deal with tho persecution of Jews. Documont

62 - In connection with this document I beg to dran the attention of the

Tribunal to Roman Numeral IV-B, an

SD-l refers to the reports against

the churches.

also tho signature "Muelleri. Document

the SD in reference to the persecution of

The document SD-65, up to and including 69, deals regulations on the strength of which during the w, a me.

with the lawful

portion of membersof the S Department HI and V wora celled wp. From document SD-65 1 shouha

like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to tho follotrine sentence.

"AS consuers"’ and I shall a fos:vords, "... thc SD soctors

are, durine war-time, based on the requirements of the popular donands an refcrence to the trials of prisoners.”

I now come to document SD-70, rocarding vhich I have unnblc to

400 with the Prosecution. I should like the Tribunal to mabeo a decision,

therefore, regarding the question as to whether or not I an aMloxa to

introduce this document,

DE FTES2D21/7: J tovc only eot one document book.

• oalzk: It is in the appendix, your lordship. Your Lorasha;, may I send up the original?

THB FCS™: Yes, wali you tan tho Tribunal what it is about?

DR. Cat™: Vath this document I am first going to try and prove

that the SD did not belong to the Police and did not belong to the S3. j

shall furthermore establish, by means of this document, that in the tne

S and the Security Polico "ere separate ot-poinLzatons and 1 want to provo th

different tasks of Department III. I bos to draw the Tribunal’, atonton

to the fact that in Section IV the SD is called to Gorman Intelligence Service

THE RSTET: This is a book produced by the Allied Commission, isn't it? Supreme Headquarters, Allied Commission, and you are offering Lt,

15020

2 C Aurus;-A~JJ-152 -Ahuna -0055

is that it?

DR. GATLIK: Yes.

TIC RESIDENT: Has there been any formal application for this document ?

Dn• GAl/LIK: Oh yes. In ny appendior to the document book. There

the document is included. But I have not reached an agreement rocerdingthat

book with the Prosecution.

Tk PIGSIDENT: We will hoar the Prosecution about it.

LT. COLDAIDER HARUS: ley it please the Tribunal, vre have no strong

objection to this document. It is siply one of several which wo discussed Iand we did not agree upon it. Our objection is primarily to its value insofar

as intelligence is concerned. It is an intclligence book and therefore what is

had in that book is of a purely intelligence nature. It is dated April, 1915.

That is the date of its publication and, quite obviously, as of that date, the

information could not be available as is now available to the Tribunal in a

competent fora.

DR. GAWLIK: Your Lordship, may I . . .

TH PZGSIDINT: You may admit the book for that it is worth.

Dit. GAVLI.: •fell, then, first of all I bog to dravr the Tribunal’s

attention to the fact that in this book tho position of the State and the

Par ty is sub-divided into four parts and tho intcllisence service is piven a

section of its own — Ronan Number IV. Roman llunbor I is the Police; Roman

Nuunber II is military Units; Roman Humber III, German Police, and Roman Humber

IV, is the German Intelligence Service: The organization that is of

Department III and VI.

I then begto draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that in

the case of the SS, it states that the SS consists firstly of the Jaffen ss

ord th.en ox the General SS, and the SD is not listed there. And I Purther

bee to drar the Tribunal's attention to the fact that the intel i j n-on.ee

service mentioned under Roman numeral IV is sub-divided into the SD in the

Reich; under Roman numeral II the organisation of the Security Police, and

the SD outside of the Reich, and thirdly, into Department VI.

And then I bey to drar tho attention of the Tribunal particularly15923

2 0 Augus t-A- -153 -Ahuna -0056

to the following statements regarding the activities of Dcpartnent III. There

it SayS: "The information supplied by intelligence agents are divested into

reports. These reports arc extraordinarily frank." I translated that

nyself "They contained a complete and undisturbed picture of the attitude

and frame of mind in Gernany." i

I no j pass on to my last document. That’s a letter from a 1

clernyman ohlfass, and I submit it because I just received it lately and I

have not had time to have it translated. me letter refers to a document

vhere the SD is supposed to have supervised the illegal. . . and in that

document there is an assertion that the population had voted "no" and had

submitted the vote as "no’’ to the letter. And then follows the statement

that no measures woro taken against the father who has since died. This

completes my sunnarization of documents.

Tour Lordship, an I to submit to the Tribunal an inden: or am I *

to submit that in writing where the documents can be found, that is, on what pages?

TEE PRCSIEIIT: I think to ha.vo pot that. Haven’t o got it at the

ocginnins of /cur docunent book? te havo an index.

Dn. GA. IL IK: Yes.

PESIDENT: Are you qoinp to make a separate document of it?

DR. CAVLIK: Yes, I vented to say here that I have the ori-ina

docunente• I only have some of the original documents, some of them are

documents of the Prosecution, of course.

TE PEESIDENT: If you think it mould serve a useful purpose^ by all

means submit your index under a separate number and deposit it vrith the Tribunal.

DR. GAILIK: Very vrell.

T PRSIDEAT: • .Dr. Kubuschok, Then youvrere dealing with the witnesse.

We vo dealing with the Reich Cabinet next? Are you prepared to go on with

your documents? ’15924

20 Aug-A-GES-16-1-illiams -0057

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Kubuschok

DR. KUBUSCHOK: Altogether I have four affidavits. They have beensubmitted to the Commission. They are bein translated, and the translations

I shall submit them at r later stage, and I shall confine"s0 today to submitting a few very important passages from thoso affidavits

which I shall read into tho record.

The first affidavit is No, I

later Minister Dr, Otto Meissner

this

That is from the Secretary of State and

I shall read the following passages from

affidavit

First of all, Messner deals

wi th the first period after Hitler

this

"th the work of the cabinet,: particularly

had formed the government; and he states in

connections

'The Reich Government worked according to previous custom; that is tosay. draft laws were decided upon at meetings of the cabinet

dur inp whichoooe 033o0thons o raisod• Tho supcrior and uncontostod londership

or the rovorment w-s mitlor. Fight From the serannin-, vho, in tnss conncot- ion, "as bnsin his actions, fonmUy spenkeine, on tho 102e10naccording to which the direction of the police

upon by the Chancellor. These directions wereof the Reich

ao different

was to be decided

he stated publicly, ropoatodly during speechesfrom those which

which he had madc."A little further on, he savs that* "3 that —l the important political decisions

such as the annexation of Austria, tho mrch into the Sudetenlanaof the pact with Italy, the mrch into Bohemia and

the signing

against Poland and the neutral countries,

resolutions' being passed by the cabinet,

tion’s being passed to the members of the

personally informed by itler.

all took

and even

Just like every other

the radio and the press

Moravia, and the attack

place without previous

without previous informa.

Eoverrment unless they had been

oitizen they lcarnod of thoso ovonts only through

The members of the Peich govornment wrorc +hus6°" o"" pollMoal ootivity, their will vithout ny

on their part, and they were lamtod to tho managing of their aoportnent.

They were merely leading civil servants in their department.

15925

20 Av -A-GES-16-2- illicms

H0209 -0058

Any possible intention on Hitler’s port to bopin A vr Tre.s th rForc

net rocornizeble by those ministers, no more thon were intentions regarding

tho uso of his power for actions in violation of existing international law.

Tho affidavit further deals with cho lav of the 3rd of July, after the

end of the Roehm Putsch. Finally, the affidavit goes on to state as foil ows,

"that members of the Reich government, in spite of the increasin'- brutality

of tl . course pursued, romnino in their offices, nccorline to my own

obser ti n, n .apart from the fact thet principally the Fuehrer woul not

, 0ocot iosi nations and p rtioulcrly in war time, considered the reduction of -

the ar aed strength o-biroly due to tho fact that at least middle class

minis rs were un‘ or the impression that by their resignation their deportment

woul’ be all the more headed by untrained cfficinls. In that manner they

woul not only have damaged the legitimate interests of their departments,

but ■'-hey would have surrendered themselves totally to attack.”

Affidavit No. 2 originates from the former Reich Minister barre : and

I q etc:

Foreim political quostions of principal irportanco were, cccomline to

my m-mory, not discussod in tho cabinet. In no case wero there during cabinet

mect nes any utterances of, even lints from which nn agrossive war could be

inferred J*

A further part of the affidavit states:

’’I emphasize that no agressive plons against Poland were known to me,

and tl t as fir ns that is concerned no tasks were given to me in ny capacity

as lilister of Agric ’ uro".

orre then goes on to describe his differences with Hitler, and he state

"During a discussion with Hitler about this subject — and th nt was

bofor the actual creation of the Law — there had been orcuments about this

law, hich Vas to be introduced into the occupied territories. Thor was a

ver-’ serious clash,-in tho course of which I resigned. Hitler thereupon

rep- tod th .t I was subject to the laws of war, and that I would hive to Ie we

my sit ion as end when he, Hitler, thought the right moment had come, nd not

when I thought it best to do so.”

15926

2 0 Aug-A-GES-16-3-i lliams

H0209 -0059

How Dorro was finally eliminated from his position becomes apparent in

the last part of the affidavit. Hitler had given orders to Darro. I quotes

'For the outside world I was to report sick, and it was desired that the

public impression should be that it was for reasons of health that I should

temporarily leave my office. I refused, however, to report sick, and I was

told to leave Berlin. After that I lived in a lonely blockhouse in the

Schorat Hei 1o, out of the world. Formally speaking I remained a minister unti

the - llapse of the Gorman Reich, although I asked Lammers rcpoatedly to remov

my n ne from the budget, and Lommers had actually reported to Hiler about

this point.”

Tho third affidavit comes from the former mi ist r in the ioh. Count t

Schwerin Krosigk. Schwerin Krosigk describes in one part of the affidavit a

meeting with the former Reich Chanccllor Brucning in 1932. I quote:

"I waspart ly in agreement with Bruening, who, 'a few weeks before his

resignation, had told mo at Baden Teile, vhilo we were oth takin ; a vacation,

that the time had now come to give responsible positions to'the National

Socialists. In the long run one could not resign by means of the emergency

laws published by the Roich President, and the strongest party could not

pern .. ontly be left in the position of the opposition. Unbounded agitation

on th part of National Socialists could only be effectively deleted by means

of gising them full responsibility."

In a further part of the affidavit, Schwerin Krosigk points out that it

ves -P the 30th of January, 1933, when he saw Hitler for the first time in

his life. I quote:

"My joining Hitler’s cabinet was due to the reason that I, together wit!

al? the other bourgeois ministers, wanted to form a count er-balancc to the

totalitarian claims for power put un by the party."

Regarding the initial period of this government, the affidavit deals witl

this at great length? but I shall quote only one sentence:15927

20 Au nst-A-JH-,16A-1-illiamsH0209 -

"-n additi’ n, the course that wras followed at that time appeared a

moderate one. That objection raised on the part of the bourgeois ministers

did, in fact, lead to alleviation of certain hardships, even to the cancellatior

of certain legal rulings which had been proposed.”

Regarding the joining together of the office of the Chancellor and that

of the Reich President, the affidavit states among other things:

"Hitler’s demand to hand both offices over for his ovm purposes and

thus completing the last step in a totalitarian reign could not be opposed

by the bourgeois rinisters, because it was perfectly clear oven at that tire

that such a powerful position of Hitlor corrosponeod ccrplotoly to the will

of the German people."

mother point of the affidavit states rath roference to this somequest! n - and I should lite to romark in this connection that Hitler hinself,

with 3 Roronco to his demand for holeLag both thase positions, made this

demand acceptable to the cabinet by stating that he did not consider that to be

the End solution, but that he tock no fosponezbalatsEee a 1atoz noego -2 tnoo

twe f lice a — surnerily that the Reich Gevorment as such had no political

tas 3 as far as civaing orders or leadership tasks ww concerned, because

persons as such were acting -ho ttere -orecna11y and specially chosen.

At the end of the affidavit Schrin Krpsigk states:

"Upon retrospective reflection I must maintain that Hitler deceivedhis ministers no less than he d 1 the German people.

above that heover and

deceived the

intentions vre"ortd- The statements he made to us, the Ministers

peaking no differenthe made publicly. That his vill tras

from those

considering the convincing power of his wor

to his repeatedly emphasized will for pocceThis a

not be expected

particular

as November, 1937, Hitler was •

foreig political eins, then t

am told today thatthinking

is is diametricallyleans of achieving his

opposed to vhat he told me at the beginning of 1930 or -

• ‘ - 1 ad expressly communicated to me throughSecretary of State Reinhardt, namoi, that Tn! *ex, „a_ . - ' 1 not worry about armament"P 383 sne8 now we had before us a long poriod of p

a roction of those very expenses.and through it

Finally, with Affidavit NO,L,- propose to submit1 5928

an affidavit from the

20 AugustAJH]6A-2-TTlliams-0061

formier ministerial director, in tho 1inistry oe hisname being Rudolf

Harmeninck,Harmeninck describes a task given by Hitler to Secrotaxy or

. State Backo, Thich deals oroe , m . 1 Perations for war for the Russian campaign.nore are explicit instructions in this ec, .4-. . . "us from Hitler according to which the

himself, Darro, is to be kept in the dary mecopg ." ' r recarding th os preparations.

And concerning that, I quote: "A " nths before the outbreak of war with Russia, moasupes wr,

.. ■ ■ m.tbe Reich "nistry of Food, which, for instance, ontazzea th40 ins To o nefcultural nachnaty and aCrLcuztura velors for a speoial7 after tho bocimnang oftha RusedanXLTT m - soen even - -—2 7 7 b cut the—Dare. 2 eact,they had to be kept secret from +1-

moe, ,, _ 1 accorling to instructions attached..

T are tho — 1 to submit" x have a &ccunent book altogsther 60 aocuuntedubmitted to the Tribunal* which I have

13929

2 0 Augu s b-(- JF-17-1-S as lavH0209 -0062

I rofor lo this document book as follvrs: In tho main, th c donunonts contained

toroin are cho official, reasons and ofricial points of vicr vitn roforonce to

tho di afb J.ars of that particular period. Tloso laws were attacked to tnc

draft la3 and ciralated amonrst th various ministers. Vhntever is contained

in bl0S- arcuments is therefore the reasons the individual minis tors trer. ' ive.

nbh ocreuoc to the admittedly proposed lant. Perusal of these arguncnts

'..ill she rith which pertinent reasons these Laws wroro justified. The

-- nininn documents which I have subm:tted, are tho f ollomins : 1 si. uld like

bo drau 3 2 pttention particularly to No. 3, the lanifcsto by the Eich

Goronn.cnt to the German people, f of 1933, ccntcininp thc directives for the

policy of 60 cabinet.

ocunont No- 9 contains official information from thc loaners of tlo

parties which trel’o dissolvi.as themselves in thc year of 1933. The individual

part Lcaden in this document*confess thcir belief in the not course of tho

eovornont and-they are calling upon ticir ollorcra to follow this covernment

and support it.

-ina-ly, I refer yov to documont No. 63 which is nnarticlo by Rich

liniutor von Donbc.F, Roicisministor for Ter, on thc subject of Cormany s

col Llsory military s crvico. As far as the remaining questions are concerned

and par ticularly tho vork i. the organization, witnesses Lau ere, Teizsacckor,

Gocrine and von Ncurath had bcu heard at considerable length. 1 - 6 the

-1i una- to Cnsider that testimony vhon considorinp the case of the Rcich

Covonment; and with that, 1 r. President, I hnve c.c to he end.

TIE TES DEIVT: We will adjourn.

(A recess vm taken. )

TIE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelclmann.

nt. PELCKIANN: Your Lordship, the Tribunal: I refc first to the

tranecript on the examination of vitncssos beforothe Commission, which the

Tribunal no doubt ins. There wolu twronty-nino -itnosses. Then I o. 'in with

the prosentation of documents. t have divided tho documents into various

roups so that I hope I can finish the presentation very quickl-r. First, the

documents Nos. 1, 2, 3, 5, and 8. The first tierce documents dcal vitl the

sO-callod "idoals" of tho SS; somot ine is said of the community of morals and 1597 0

2 0 Auqus t—-JF -2 0-2 —S aslavr-0063

so Corih; and proof is niven that tills vras tho basis of the braininr.

Docunonb 5 ECys that the nombors of tho General SS carried out their

non 7. c.-vi- occupation and the SS Service us only supplonntary.

Docuncnt 8b makces it clear once more thiat the SS vras a branch of tho party

and .a conorcst to tho other S3 forr.tions, vhich I shall present later. This

"uas represented by the NSDAP in case of coplaints.

In docuncnt No. 6 and USA Ll1, - ich I subnit once moro, the basic lavrs

of the SS are montionod which, for tho individual mon, woro Lmnrs which decidedly

decent — population rocardin savings and sc Corth. I nust present what is

important for m final plea.

Docvnenb b and 103 belong togothor. Docunont L shovrs that the SS non

swore an oath which did not differ fron that of the old civil servants but did

cifor rom that of a solditr, for tho soldier swears absolute obedience but

the SS man does not.

15931

20 Aug - A - GII - 1G - 1 - Porrin-0064

Locuonc 1-5 donls with tho fact that this oath was made in God’s

110-8 » i lor snys in roforonco to that that mon who donot boliovo in

God, I considor tho mon to have mogolomanic ond to be dunb. They are not

s ablo for us*1’

Documont 4 which I just quoted, shows once moro that the SS-

Voruojungstruppo n1). the S3- Toto? kopf units did not belong to the General

Ss -on they did not have civil occupation, they worc state employees.

And in case of complaints against those members or these formations, thet

moans Si Vorfuogungstrvppo and th. lotonkopf units, the complaint is to be

liroctod to the Ministry of the Interior. This is very important for the

concentration comp question.

Thon thoro follov do cumonts 8, 9, 10, 11, and 42. During the war

eno -nfen So was orontod. Its norbors are instructed t fight decently

on- chivolr. us ly ana not make thons elves guilty of punishable action in

to . rony country toward the civilian population, and to respect the

prisoners of war onc. the doad. For tho nombors of the Woffon S3, which iI

show especially by document 42, the basic rules of the SS apply only whon

cho inclividuol loffon S3 men 'wore c the same time members of the General

SS. For example, the so-called marriage order. The ideology is not

cppliccblo to tholnffon SS men, or the Vorucgungstruppo SS gen vrerc not t

subject to these special laws of the SS.

Docunonts 13, 14, 15, where the SS is accused of the plundering of the

occupied eastern territory, these oovnonts show that the laws in this

respect were issued by the Deputy of the Foyr-Yoar Plan, Goering, or the

1 inis cry ei the Intorior, Frick. 1o task of the Rcichskommi,ssers for

Gbrongtheninc of Gormcnisn and of tho lctioncl German Agency wo ro the

rosottlonont and the return of Gor..cs, This is shown by documents 15,

16, 17, 13, 19, 20, 22, end 23. Documnonts 25, 26, 30, 33, 34, 40, ona

USA i submit as evidence that the civil service law, the omorgency

roculation, eno constitution of Geramn studonts, the agreement betvroen ti

Hoic.1s Tuoh-ors, od the Rcichs Youth Leader, the Reichs Labor Loader,

the Reichs Financc minister, represented forced measures which made it

Possilo for Germans to be placed in the General S3, the Teffen SS,

Veruegungstruppe 3;, the Totenkcop? units. Even the police auxiliary 1 5932

20 Auc - a - GH - 18 - 2 - PerrinH0209-0065

assistants oro forcibly placed in tho sstonoz’e Auxiliary. Documents

29, 30, 31, end 32 om bo put togot:ot. n»y dvo ea oxp1o ce cuon

oofuaF obligation* a. just no Loroc, y ■ roftin asto tho Gonor1 ss,

afon SS, end the ss Vorfuogongstruppo, Dcouzzonte 29, 36, 38, and 39

she" that citizens or foreign a co fer as thoy rro oe Cummqn

dooo* not drafto: into the catv of their respective o nurtrios, but

1 * the efCon SS. This «. based on state treaties. The Goouiozts shot,

further that largo or mall crsupsce potsone woro Ecrolly plccod udor ss

duricdiotion vltacut being SS uonbors, and voro loft under thoir old

eupetona1 dosi-nctiqn but wit tho addition of the tern "ss11.boounent. 48, 65, 64, 67, md 60 Goc1 mro cr 1080

compulsion oxerted on police officials to loin the s,,.• join -ne boe This wos demanded witi the oxpression, "I theror ora expect

15933

20 August--JH-18A-]- Perrin H0209 -0066

that so-and-so will joineco." It was demanded by continu us inquirics as to

vthethor the person had joinedo Even merbers of the order police, the

Ordnungspolizoi, were also more or loss forced to join. Court officials,

doctors, young officers, and non-cormissioned officers vara also pressed to joi

the SS. Cn the other hand, documents 52 to 55, and 56, show that the merbers

of the police who joined the SS in this way did not carry out ary 33 service.

They were also not obliged to perform 33 training# The only sign of the

membership in Hie SS was that when they were promoted they were also promoted in the SS.

Finally I have to deal with documents 65, 66, 67, and 68, which are

purely external SS designations in police units. The Battalions and re imonts,

as well as fire prevention, police units, that is, units of the fire department

received the designation SS as an external sign of rocomnit: n as it is montie

in the decrees. As an excanple, I mention in this document, the Second

Gendarmerie Battalion which boc2l the Second Ss-Gundamario Battalion; or th.

police regiment "Alponlane"" vhich became the SS police regiment, and so forth.

The documents show further that in spite of all this, these S3 police

regiments remained with the Ordnungspolizoi, that they received their equipment

from the Ordnungspolizoi, and everything else was attended to by the Ordnungs­

polizoi. The individual policeman of these regiments, by this SS designation

for the units, did not become a member of the Genera SS, nor a member of the TTaffen S3.

Finally, the following documents deal with the question of to what

extent the members of the SS knew of and desired the crimes charged by the

Prosecution. Documents 70, 71, 73, 75, 76 and 79 are taken together. Throng:

constant speeches, Hitler pretended his unchangeable will for peace, m.

govornmont also stated +1 "t it ... . _u ‘ "m-e- to preserve peace uncler all circunstancThe paper IDas Schwrarze Kopgi (- . ■ 4

-- , De--n- —lese Scomenbs, vrote that theSS did not 1ike vrap. , . ,--- "—3 2 sobemenb of January, 1937 ma-e - +-3-. ...-3 ‘-‘3 --- — - -C statementsabout opposition to T- a. Accuzanta 77 78 ehcrr thet even cubetcorslife tho Azetrken 2sho,e mna ths E-glish Oovemant b e, infce sooz 1930, w

deceived.15934

H0209 -006Aug 2 0- RT-A-19-l-Hayne s

The Geran--nglish peace declaration of 30th Septumber 1938 is well known.

It expresses the will of both peoples never to va.go wr against each ■ thor age; r

By -ocumont 80, some official statements on the nature and character of the

Sa and the $S, it is shown that neither the Sx nor the 33 wero armed and wre nr

given any training with arms and vere not trained otherwise for milit.ry purpos.

I assort that here only for the case as the SS.

-ocumont 81 and supplement says that on the 16th ipril 193L the Ceran Go--

ment offered the English Government a guarantee of the fact that the S3 and the

SA had no arms and wr re not trained for military purpeses.

Not only outwardly w"s this thesis maintained, but also ri thin the SS, in

this case. This is shown by 3 document 82. It is a secret Fu hr.r Decree of 17

ugust 1938. This Fuehrer D.croe states that the SS as a political organization

of the NSD..P is not a military organisation and needs no troining ana is unarmned.

It states further in this decree that the membors f the Generl-that is the un­

armed—33 are at the disposal of tho l’ehracht in case of war, in accordance wit'

the provisions of the National Defense Law, and not of the Wafeun SS.

A small example of the doception of the masses on the peace ains: It is

document 92, according to which it is a law of the Tich Gov.rm nt that any

participation in the Spanish Civil ar in any form whatever is subject to prison

punishment, although thousands ware fighting in Spain on Hitler’s orders at the

time.

Documents 87, 88, 90, and 99 show the following: Through th, law on the

transfer of dof nsivo strength, the prohibition against list ninq to f rci-n

rat io, any sproading of the truth—-and I take as an example the sprtad; n of ric

on concentration camps—is in practico made impossible.

This pol cy continued strongly during th vrar. That is proved by Document 98.

it is the well knovm speech of irmler in Poson in 1943, ocum nt PS 1919. I rof.,

only to one sentence, in which it is said that, " Cheever is disloyal, be it even

in thought, will be cismissed from the SS and will be scen to that he will be re—

novod from life."

On the Jewish question, there are documents 93 and 95. In February 1931 the

Rcich Minister of the Interior, Dr. Frick, said to the diplomatic corps that the

only intention was to reduce the activity of the Germans of Jewish faith in pro

15935

Aug 23 -RT-I -19-2- Haynos H0209 -0068

portion to other Germans, but it is ex-r gs. qon;, .,-4 , ..‘ ----- —omled that forced emigration ofthese citizens would be undortalren

rp-he other document. Number 95, proves that in* • - 9 -v-- I-- - —3 -l’S-

tructions of Jews wore underwray, a law rmt . . . ,"3 a created a settlement in Theresienstadt fo

Jewish citizens* This, consciously or unconsciously, served to deceive the 2301.about this exte rination, and it deceived th. SS members too.

The events of the 30 June 193L arc dealt with in Documents 83, 100, 7. 105

-nd 106. ha public did not learn th truth. Through tclgrams of Heich Fresid nt

von Hindenburg to Hitler and Hering, Eblur was thanked for taking steps. Aos

telegrams were published in all papers. In his speech of 13 July 1931, Hitler doj

cribed in detail the preparations Rosha had taken to overthrow the government’-, h

he was in contact with foreign Countries, and how an SS Fuehrer, who w s nantser. ed by name, had prepared to attack his life. The situation . presented as so

urgent that only immediato action, without judicial proceedings, could do any pood. This speech, furthormoro, promisos the punishment of -q

this act-1 n.

Pocument loll givos a sketch to supplemont of the t.sti-ony of tho witness

von Sberstcin. Th actual position of the Eicher ss end the e

clarified.

The Document SS 107. I w s able . o;. :4.,1* X b OO &-V- It o the 1 r S ecution only chis

morning. I ask that it maybe accepted, sine r hav- .. g . • x,‘ "1- X mVe Just iound it in the coll cion of docres. It is a dacruo of the eichsfuchrur - of 27 nuqust 1922. Inas

decree expressly states that the main office of the Volkedcutsch ttt-1- ll0"

not an SS office but a state organization. "mle question is important for the r .

spnstbiuity of the SS in the So-called smsandztian program, -ns document has

not yet been translated. I shall attempt to have translations ma as quickly as possiblee

- hat is y pros ntati n of Pocunents. Your Lordship.

Now I come to my affidavits. in the examination before the Commission and i

the examination of the fivs witnesses before tile Tribunal. I could brine onlv

witnesses tho, because of their high positions, foul’d give the Court an ext net-

survey of certain questions. “Ith the affidavits the Defense had to attempt to

present as large a number as possible of statements on the whole material of the15936

Aug 2-ET-/-19-3-Haymes 209-0069

Indlctoont, if possible, so that the Ocure maght obtain an 1zstghe 1nto th;

knowledge and deeds of tho mass of small people; I have attempted to do so in

the fern of individual affidavits onertain points and in gathering together

largo numbers of statements on certain groups of subjects.

I submit first 114 single affidavits. They are SS affidavits 1 4 60, 53,

6, 68, and 69, 71 to 118. affidavit amber 70 is made up by +o SS members. It

contains the contents of the affidavits of the internees of one camp. ca, Ko.

73. It refers to almost all of the. points of the indictment against th SS.

Then I submit the evaluation of 136, 213 individual affidavits and collect,

ive affidavits. I have given the numbers 119 to 122 to this.

Fnely, the digest of a questionnaire which w s sent to all camps under th

Number 123. I regret that I cannot give the Tribunal the texts of these nencav

in English today. .s far as I know, translations into French are v, ■ .

affidavits, and I shall attempt to turn in the -asush translation as soon

as possible. I shall hand over the French translations.

15937

2 0 Aupus t-A- JF-20-1-Losser H0209 -

I then {ubmit SS affidavits of Dr. lorcon, 65 to 67.

S3 affidavits 61, 68, 69 and 70 1 personally consider cx6col inportan

I consider then sc vory inportant..,..

TH PRESIDENT : Which are the ones you scid woro vor • importani?

DI. PSICKIAITT: 6L, 68, 69 and 70.

THS PRSIDLIT: Yes. Go on.

• DR TELCKIANNI: I had asked for their translation. I have not

submitted any sumarics before tho’Coruission, only the tholo contents can b

eiven. No. 70 is for the question of loral hqavine of the aims of SC men.

It is as important as the presentation of tho digest of tho 136,000

affidavits.

In order to shorten my presentation I have ..laced individual aizidavits

• in eroups and I hope that by civing those mbors I have .ado it posslc for

the Tribunal to have'a few of the individual affidavits.

Group 1 contained the affidavit that tho S3 vres a conspiracy in which n,

distinction can be nade according to composition or to tine. mis is assert

b the Trial Triof on pace IX and 2 in the Corman version. In addition in t

transcript on pages 1607 and 1608 of the 19 th and 20th of Docc cr.

SS affidavit 116, Petri, proves that the Fuehrer’ Order of 17 Aunis t 1931

USA 3, does not have the purpose of forming an orcanic connection betveen .

General SS Death Head Formation and Vezguop unes truppo but on the contrary to

support those individual branches of the SS.

Now I sum up a group of affidavits, 13, 62, 19, 10, 1,2, 56, 55, ,5, 51,

97, 96, 53, 50, 51 and 38. Of these affidavits I might ramark, your Lords

thero is a translation in English of 52, which is bcine distributed. I beg

your pardon, it is ony in French, your Lordship. Tith these affidavits I

Prove tae ‘ollvuin: Certain groups are charged in the general indictment of

the SS, They cummot be brought under the concept of a common conspiracy bee

they had only a very temporary relationship to the SS or none at all. Other

sponsors of the SS, the Farmers’ Leader, tho so-called honorary fuehrers, the

SS Front TTorkcers, the so-called SS railroad construction bri-ado, the postal

protection, the national political education institution; f ur ercc, the

Leaders of the Roich Harrier League, (that is somcthine sinilar to uno St-uhl 15938

H0209 -00720 Aus us t-A- 1-20-2- Le s s er

he SS sport comunitios. furtheror, the Reiber Groups vhich vrere

transferred to the SS, known as so-called SS Reiter Stuerme, xdich had c.ct1,

the 8c0 c-arc-eterietics and history as the SA Reiter Stucrio; and Aar"cruicro

the s tudontsttho vero tckzen into tho " n a cozpulsory basis.

Tio following two affidavits, 118 and 101, deal with the Lebensborn

or-anizattoa- They prove that the 60: 1s of this organisation wore to cu ort

etilios of nan children and to care for children and nothers, including

illoritinato children and unzarsiod others, but they did not involve the

opportunity for illegal begetting of chilron as the prosecution has asserted.

S3 affidavit #L7 is a valuable supplement to l. Lcstco Of ..

Lioolicht, an SS doctor, before the - 'ion. It u +0. .

taken into the SS exclusively on the basis of their technical cilit.

loading doctors and loading authorities were taken into the SS to raise its

prestige. It is assorted that tho activity of the SS doctors of the Gonc-..

SS srccormi.z0d by foreign countries, giving oxcaaplo of int rnati0no1 authorities.

SS affidavits 1To, og and 96 . i, +1,. .. - cr T* , r " - P—° ' ile 010 S3 lomen’s League were not members of tho S3 and were not sponsored. These girls nd the sone nc ivitios

— Wo information and staff assistants in Wchsmnoh and must nt be

confused MW We female supervisors in the concentration camps for female

prisoners.

There follows a lars or cr01. of .. X* rtu -- °- --cev6s on tie question of Gormanization an extensive and very di //1-17+ .e .— P--- of uno -ncictment. Aflicavibs No, 2S 112m, 113, 110, 115, 1A, 71, 73, 78, 77, 79, 11, 16, 72, 7, 76, 78 aa 80. Ea,

I add at this opportunity that in talein- ech a lerpo-roup to-othoz, thaso

individual affidavits are not cumulative, but the affidavits supplement each

o e . onl in this way could a complete picture be made of the points of

the indictment and Weir defense. These affidavits prove that We Volksdcutsch

attoletollo and tho so-called Staff aun Qefice of tho Roich Oeruziesoz Eog

Wo Strengthening of Germanism - I repeat, vellesdoutecho attclotozzo ona

Stabshauptamt des Roichskonmissars fuer die Fostigung des Deutschon Volks turns _

were not SS agencies but rero State Offices.1 That is We formal side th -

lefansc. The material shows. fro -,4 ,"3 -- --UT pare cx those documenbs just quctod1^39

H0209 -007220 August-A- JF — 20—2—Loss ar

taat -cho S3 did not have anythin to d vith the evacuation measures,

Cormaizaton measures, and the settlenant of Germans in the occupied torritorios.

SS affidavit 89 proves that the Chief of the Trisonor of S-g

after Hirmlor’s appointmcnt, was a pu-l- .chrmacht office., even

15910

H0209 -0073

20 AU C-A- TIZGERALD- -21-1

nan Ei I lor wOs nppoinooc cho: of tho ppicono-o-

system, nothing vaE changed in the orcanization of 62 -pisoc:

of-ver system. The SS ospcciclly "id not oxort on- influonco or tho ozoc omont of tho prsonor ' ? tar.

I vill refer no bo no:t group of affidavit, rho-- 0cc1

’ - ih0 ascortion o tho prosooubion thet there hen con -0l: U"

us. This took plnco undor ho cocallod iHighop a on- folic

Locdor." That assertion of tX prosecution is on Tec 12 .. if

of the Gorman Trial Bricf. It io in the transcript of the 106

and the 20th of Docoz-bor. ho Colloring affidavits are to refute

this statement, 86, 37, 83 ond 10, t vin1 aci t -- to

pay special attention to Affidavit 87. These affidavits

that the higher ss and Police Lan”ors ri thin the Reich -

authority over the Ornungapolzoi or the securi 7 police.

The presentation of :)r. Jest’s documont ' 3 1352 di "

not correspond to the facts an” is a vish?ul drcnm,

"roup 3 nfidovite taken together containing nffid

vhsch are to refute the assertion of tho Prosecution that th

res orcinod in fovor of the doctrine of tho master --co and

racial hatred and that spiritually and physically it 1cc -o

pare: for var. Refer to the ic1 f^ief, -oc, 5 . .

of the 19 th and 20th of Doccno~,

-lenVits 57, “ - °, GO and 33 ■ prove that a

not trained for racial hatred n: Certainly not for racial

extermination; also that the 33 do s not train for var cit

mentally or physically.

he affidavits in r-r rap 1 deal

Thc the h’af fen-33 wac on integral -0

found in the transcript of the 19th and

Vith 'sho follotin- c"o-ec .. —- O' „

of the holo "S, ' . 1 -

20th of Docombor, 1945 ,

15911

H0209 -00742c AUC-*-. TTZGERALD-]-21-2

-urthorr ro, that sozvioo in tho offon~ss, rith a Tc

exceptions, 00 boon voluntary at the end of the war, in tho third

place, the affon-SS had fought in an illegal and inhmeno manner

on the basis of its troining. .ficczit ‘34 proves that the -inffon

SS as a unit had no concept of inlop’s idea, and above all that

the acfen-3S heard nothing at all iron the other sectors of

-irmtoz’s povor and that they wore not lead by Hi-loz in a

military sense, only in rogcm *o orsonnol questions, clothinn

a in 1 c q u i p:: ont.

flic next four cffjcnvits will be taken toycthor, 3G, 2

39 ond.40. It has been prove . that a oonsidorn 10 -opt of the

Taon-3 and also special g.nos such as the ‘ustos Nor-o. Tr-

taction and th... S3-lotor Vohacle aquca, front Aid of the Cozen

Post Ofico voro taken into th s3 on a copulsor basis.

The folloving affidavits, Tunbars 1, 31, 32, 35, sa nn

81 prove the follozing : Tho Waffen-SS was repeatedly instructed

about observing the rules af ty. gho rules of war wore Pont and

volations worc severely puniclen ,

Affidavits 82 and 85 eel ith the SS-Tolico Toginon

like the Cocunonts quoted previously. Thoy prove that those ns

police zocizonts voro puro rocinents of the rccul-, - lico .it

out connection with the ss. The police divisions, to bo distin-

guishod. fronthe regiments, up to April, 10/2, moro not at all

under choss. Only after tint were 6ho; forcibly ordered into t ' ar f on-ss .

The Duorlovmnger has boon montionc: repeat . Affidavit

35 deals with it. This affidavit says, Nqhis brimdo waa not en

S3 unit, but a unit sot up directly, on Himlors orcoxs or

persons v/ho had had prison sentence before.

Tlao next group, affidavits 3 and 4, provo thnt assertion

0 uno ■ rosocution that tho Ss had participated in15912

2 0 -UC~/.--TZGTRALD-H-21-3 H0209 -0075

the — on -uno 30, 1934, is nlso. Tho goncrol ss in rnnkfurt

one Berlin, for ozmnplo, vao only allotted. . Mo arzcsts or

chootin_ took place.

- -J S0J in this connection extensive rntoricl from all

s ornan is civen by affidavit 70. It is a ci o ss-acct ion of tho

Cn P, a , holo int orrnont cmp. __ digest is riven.

The n-xt croup deals vith another point of ho indict-

i lent, participation of the ss in the Govish progro as of tho 9th

of -ovodo", 1938. Thoso oro affidavits 7, 3, 8, 9, 104 and 105.

Tho provo that the S3 in uorndorg, Offenburg, Tuburc, Berlin

end in ' 1 did not participate in Procrons, but on the 10th of

Tovonboz ve3 orployod for protection.

Of special importance as to the question of mothor an

order from above vn3 given to tin ss to porticipato in those

rogrons, I consider this affidavit number 5* it is by a certain

3cdn-looior• I have just joard it is available in nglish. I

ou.LC bo grateful if the Tribunal would por-it ,o to read it

15943

ID0for0 tho Cormssoners?

H0209 —0076

it oon ligostoc in ho trenscript

•no TELC-IT: It is digostod in tho transcript, your

—orCshi] . - do not went to ron.d the whole ocuent but nay l

rocC on-J part cf it once moro, scrothinc which is ospociclly

mportunt.

"-bout 3 c.m. on lovorbor 10 (this is Schcllorneir speal-

-nC) tho cichsfuol ror Cict tod tc no in my ror a. declorction

running as follows: '

went on 9 lovorbor to tho “uohror and towords 11:30

P.m, tho Gruppenguolror Wolff c me to no and informed no about

tho orders issued by tho Gau Eropncona Office in Munich. (I

omghcsize Gc.u Propc.condo °ffco.) I asked th o "uohror what orders

ho had to cive no. Tho • uohror replied that the SS lad to keep

out of this action. Tho State Police were to provide safety for

-owsh property and see that tho Jews thonsolvos were protected,

-ho General SS, who roncinod in barracks, wore only to bo helpers

on protocivo mocsuros if c"sc lutely necessary. I passed on this

cormand of tho Tuohror to Crup. onf uohror Hoyrich for the State

clicc ocqucrtors and to the Oborcbschnittsuolrors for the

Gonornl SS ct once. -hon I asked the uohror I 1 ca the inpression

thct ho knov nothinc a out vhat was happoning. The order come

from the —cich Pre pa ; nda headquarters and x prosune that Goo^eis

he.- started this action in his lust for power which had struck

no for sone while past ond in his ompty-hecdodness, just when the

f reicn political situation was at its worse. vi

hay - correct myself. f I said this was Schallormeier

that was a mis take. This quotation was dictated by Eimmler:

Hirmlor die a tod those paragraphs. ,

hnd now the author of the affidavit gocs on:

-C-C- UO type this CiCc.tion personally, i

/t states that the statement of Lirmmlor was locked up

in the safe.

- very Good view of the participation or non-participatio

15944

2° --UG A LJG IrP 22-2, ' H0209 -0077

of — ° Go in thoso ovonts of 9 Hovombor is givon to tho Tribuncl

3 .ficvit numor 70, c. Giro st from c. comp.

21o next group includes tho folloving cff iduvits; 14, 15, 16,

it, 2°, 21, 23, 25. it doe.ls with circunstencos in tho concontra-

tion ccnps, Thoso cffidcvits aro to prove thnt troctnont in 'tho

concontrstion cenps, which those witnesses doscribod only in

conorc1, were sctisfactory, Histroctnont of prisoners we.s

severely pun i shod.

-horo c.ro numnorous oxcnplos on this subject in the cffidcvit

nuor 7°, which I have nontionod in the Cicost of meny affidcvite in the collective affidavit 119, 122.

-s to tho question of the cuthori ty in tho concentration

ccups < nd tho rolo vi ich this played within the ss orgenizction,

the affidavit 99 and 100 are inportant. Thoy prove t’ at the

income of concentration conps from tho labor of prisoners was

not turned over to the SS, in particular not to the U0ffon SS

’ nt this income was entered on the bud pot of the German Reich.

Thc noxt croup includes cff idavits rogording oxporiront s

on livnc human oings. I consider thorn valuable only a.s to the

question as to vhct the SS men know of those experiments.

-ffidevit 17 is to prove that in Dachcu they wore volunteers

for froozing experiments after they Imad boon givon c physical

examination on. special feed.

-ffidevit 1°7 also deals with those experiments.

ho following roup of affidavits, 18, 22, 27, and 28 deal

with the question of secrecy rogording crimes, especially crimes

in concentration camps and to refute the assertion of the Prosecu­

tion on p.po 3419 en. 3420 of tho German transcript, that the

vho-o Gormen popuction lmnov of the trocities in concentration

conps -hat woulc inclullo tho SS non outside cc ncontration

comps.

“0so four affidavits prove that f all persons who.came in

contact in any way with concentration comps statements of secrecy

voro donondod; f ur Ul ormoro t: at the cuards of the concontrat ion

comps Cil not hovo my insicht into the cctucl protoctivo custody

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tho

theVLsion

the rules

nsctz

00

see

the

H0209 — 0078oven within tho conu

20 August-A-MB-23-1 3lakley-0079

-he Chief of the SS Personnel Main Office inquired whether rumors

ab ut the murder f Jews vrere true. The offices menti ned answered that these

runers were untrue. They were enemy propaganda,

THE RESIDENT: We shall break off now, D-ctor, please. Will y u be

much 1 nger in y ur summaries of these affidavits ?

DI IELCRTANN: .No, Y ur Lords' Lp, these affidavits will n t take much

l n.or; but a resume of the mass affidavits which I must give so that the

Tribunal vill kn w vthat these mass affidavits deal with, that vill take a

little l nger.

(The Tribunal adjcurned until 21 August 1916, at 1000 h urs.)

15947