Post on 19-Jan-2023
-0002
Mug-M-GES-l-1-Fitzgerald
OFFICLL TRANSCRIPT OF THE INTERNATIONAL MILITRY TRIBUNAL IN THE MATTER OF THE UNITED STATES OF LMERICA, THE FRENCH BE- PUBLIC, THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREaT BRITAIN
AND NORTHERN IRELND, I.ND THE UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS AGAINST HERMAN ILHSLM GOERING ETAL, DEFENDINT, SITTING AT NURNBERG G-RINY, ON 20 AUGUST 1946, 1000-1300, LORD JUSTICE L.RENCE PRESIDING.
THE -Su-- OF THE COURT: Eny it plonse the Tribunal: The Defendant
Hess is absent.
DE: I beg the Tribunal to listen to me for a very brief moment.
This is with reference to a possible precautionary application regarding
ov’donoc. I repeat it is a precautionary application which will only be
operative under certain conditions hich I am about to describe to you. I
beg the Tribunal to remember that the witness Gisevius talked about this same
subject when he testified as a witness for Dr. Schacht, an application to hear
lieutenant General Haider was withdrawn by me at an earlier stage, whereas the
he rine of "rs Strucnke as a witness had been granted by the Tribunal. Though
after hearing witness Gisevius and witness Halder, I decided in order to save
time to witheraw my application to hear this witness as I oonsidorod it to be
cumulative. Now those two tnos.sos lYs Struenk and Colonol Halder w1l no
longer be cumulative if, and this is b- no means my own opinion, the Tribunal
shold adopt the view that the testimony of Witness Gisevius as far as he had
spoken in favor of Dr. Schacht is so.
It is not "y task to trio care of the material or ideal interest of the
tnoss Gisovins; nor is it my task to ostablish the credibility of vatnoss
Glsevlu... tostmony. It 1. merely my duty to furnish ovidonoc on behdlr of
my client, Dr. Schacht. It is my own personal thought, and as far as that is
concerned, I an speaking against my application, that the testimony of GL6cvaus
with reference to Dr. Sohacht, that is to saw the testimony regarding the pur
pose f armament and Sohacht’s port in the resists™. movement, has in no way
be shaken by the testimony of Witness Brauchitsch which w.s to the effect that
he did not know witness Gisovius at all. Those subjects of evidence are not
merely proved by Gisevius but as far as the interior attitude of th 15870
20 Aug-M-GES-1-2-Fitsgerald
is concerned, it has been proved by affidavits as well as fitness Halder. As
to the bocin ing of the resistance mocoment and the contact with Mluego, that
has been proved by the affidavit of Schmidt.
T PRTSIDET: Dr. Pix, I think yOU must make up your mind whether you
..nt 6 mako an application or not. If you want to make an application, you
must make it in writing. The Tribunal is not inclined to entertain possible
procnuti nary applicot i ons which aro not in writing.
DR. DR: I intend to leave it to the decision of the Tri byncl . I am
moroly making a suggestion because it is my personal view, having had Gisevius ’
testimony —
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has made a rule that applications must be
in writing. That rule has been applied to every other cousel ' appearing on be
half of the Defendants. The Tribunal thinks that rule should be adhered to by
you, too. Therefore, if you wish to make an application, you should make it
in writing.
DR. DIX: Very well, than I should like very much to make my application
in writing. Does the Tribunal wish that I should use up another .two minutes
by giving the reasons for the aim of my application?
TE FRTSTET: I do not see any reason for departing from the rule.
DR. DIX: Vorywoll. In that case I shall make my ,application in
writing.
TE PRESIDENT: I have two anno uno omcn ts to make. In the first place,
with reference to the application of Dr. Seidl, who does not appear to be pre
sent. the Tribunal has had a report dated the 17th of August, 1946, on the
condition of the Defendant Fess from Captain G. M. Gilbert, the prison
psychologist. This report will be communicated to the Defendant Hess’s counsel,
to the Fscoution an to tho Pross. a. TFLbuncl wu not oel for any
report upon the Defendant Ress at the present time.
Next, with refaronoo to the applloatl on by Dr. Stahmor datod tho 14th of
August, 1946, the Tsumal will treat this appliontion as e exceptional case,
an they will allow the Gogring to bo rocallod to tho watnoss Lox to
2 0 AuC-I-GES -1 - 3-Fit z ceral d
dool with the evidence upon experiments vhich was given after the
DeferCent Gocrinr ove his evidence, ond upon no other subject.
The Tribunal rejects the application to call another witness and the
Tribunc.1 will hear the defendant Goering in the witness box now.
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H0209 -0005Aug 20-T-2-1-Karr
"" CoFFTN, having bcen previously sworn, was r called.BY THE PRESIDSNT: \
Q You understand, defendant, of course, that you are still under oath?
A Yes, of course, Nr. Presidont,
DIRECT EXA INATIC N
BY DR. ST (HMER:
q Were you the President of the Reich Research Council?A Yes.
Q When and by wthom*s the Reich Research Council created?
A As far as I remember it was created either in 1912 orat the beginning of 1913 by me.
"hat we were concerned with was that every subject, every sphere of scienc
physios, technology, medicine and philosophy should be summarized and that tL,various institutes of the state, the -mporor ilholm Institute, the institutes ofthe univorsitios, the economic research departments , -F " --53 ncn W-re al carrying out
research "o" concurrently should be drawn together in this Reich Research Council Commissions were formed according to the subject they were a aling with. They wer
centralized and it was their task that research should not belines but that research should be
carried on on parallcarried out jointly.
Secondly, they were to centralise related research work, such as physics and
ch-mistry, that that was to be centralized and carried out correctly.At th
deputy..of each one of these comissions there was a plenipotentiary, a
ht in the foreground, of bourse, in the case of all this roosonr „mpplication to h necessities of war and for that purpose special men war.
appointed also. Anis eich Research Council carried out not hundreds but thousandsof various tasks of research and since I personally am of course, not an expert, Iwasmerely 1 chairman o the whole institution in order to lend it my authority an?
as in order to furnish tho necessary funds as one of my foremost tasks in that
connection. The tasks I had w re headed by neicLsmag,,-+u-- --usmarsna- of the German Reich andI r sidcnt of the Rcich Research Council.
Q eh position within the Airforce and which tasks did the Medical Inspocto rate of the Airforce have?
A It had the task, just as in the case of all other branches o ths amed15873
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5’ ° -cake care of th- hygiene and health of the armed forces, to take care
of all the. work which fitted into that sphere.
Q Did the lodical Inepactorato have any connections with the Reich Research
Council?
A Naturally there " re ioase connections between than and the Reich Weare:
ounell in oxdr to explain th results at the nyedene and medical research work
or r-pectively cornmunicato to them their wishes regarding the orders which were
to be dealt with, the tasks which wars to be carried out by the Reich Rossarch
Council.
Q id you siv- the Reich Research Council or the Medical Inspectorate of
the r‘ ros tasks at any time for the carrying out of medical experiments on
detainees in concentration camps, Dachau or any other camps?
• I should like to say quits clearly on this p int that there is not a
single letter hich could possibly be signed by mo and that not a single man
could possibly appear to state that I myself have at any time, in any shape of
f r, iven a sang1o task or a singlo order or even a hint in that respect.
9 Md you have knowledge of the fact that Dr. Rascher or a chief medical
officer of the -roroc. Dr. roles, had carried out medical experiments on de-
tainuos in tho concentration camp of Dachau?
A 3 I have learned hero in lurnburg and 2s I have gathered from the docu-
menta, T• aschor was • muccal officer of the Airforce Reserve and apparently
later on, as appears from the correspondence, he did net succeed with his expert-
ments. He resigned from the airforce and became a medical officer in the SS. I
myself have, never soan the man, I have never known or met the man, just as the
second name which you have mentioned is strange to me and I do not even know
whether he was an active, serving medical officer or a medical officer in the
Re s . rve .
Q Did you give the Order to any department or did you have the order evon to any department that sub-pressure chambers should be used on atainocs tn con-
c ntration camps?
A I have already tola you that I have not Aena so. lt is netura that 1e
arybdy had come to me, shall we say from the gdacal tnepuctoreto o From th
Rich Rosoaroh Council, and had told me that it would be serving a purpose .15874
Aug 20— -23- H0209 -0007
e" out research shall say regarding the subject of cancer research or
yphoid research but of course I would have said that that is a very preiscvorth
enterprise, Fut then I cann.t possibly connect that fact with the idea that a
human being should be used in an incorrect manner in connection with it and if
bolls ne that at present the experiments are going on with low pressure chambers that I cannot possiblyunderstand by that or imagine through it that de
tainees have be n used or are being used in that connection, all the moru so con- siderins that I knew that ev-ry aviator was being experimented with in the low
pressure chamber in order to find out his flying abilities before he could pass hi s examination,
Q id the Boich Research Council or the .iodical Inspectorate of the irforc
receive the order from you to carry out experiments for making sea water drinkabl
have nover heard of the experiment. It would have interested me extra
ordinarily because repeatedly we aviators, amongst ourselves, have discussed this
point, not regarding making sea water drinkable but with reference to the questic,
of how a flyer who would b a adrift in the sea in a lafsboat could obtain drinkabl
water at all and it was always said amongst flyers at the time that there was only
one possibility^ that they should have fishing tackle aboard their Lifeboats ®
that they could catch fish and they were given the primitive instruction to squcc:
out the fish since that was the only drinkable water obtainable under such circum
stances. That is why that point is particularly clear in my memory.
Q But then in May 19444 this matter is supposed to have been discussed during
a conference in the r Ministry. Had you ordered that conference or were you informed about it f torward?
A No. Currantly and daily conferences of all types and of all departments
" .re taking -laoo in the Air inistry and they could not possibly comrurdocto to
me daily or report it to me at Headquarters.
1 th "-ference to that same question, discussions with the Airforce are sup-osud to have taken places! Dachau. ere they ordorsd by yeu or aa you gain knowle go of them?
1 No.q For this parpes medical officers of the airforce are supposed to have nad
working r^oms at their disposal at Dachau at certain times. Had you learned of those facts?
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A No, I had no knowledge whatever of these facts.
Q Do you know the medical officer of the Airforce Reserve, Dr. Deck?
A I knew him neither under the name Deck or Dick.
id you ive the order or did you have the order given that low freezing
experiments should be carried out which are supposed to have beencrried out by
a certain Professor Naustginor, a medical officer of the Airforce Reserve at
Dachau, for which he is supposed to have used detainees?
A No, as far as I can remember from the files Russia is suposd to have
carried out these low freezing experiments. Hausteiner is just as unknown to me
as are the other names. There w re thousands of medical officers in the Reserve
of the Airforce.
9 Did you ever meet Dr. Eazgon, Professor at the University of Strassburg,
who was the chief staff medical officer or was supposed to have been the chief
medical staff officer of the Airforce and you had given himordersat any time to
make experiments in order to defeat typhoid?
A as I have gathered from the documents also, Dr. Haagen was a medical
officer in the Airforce Reserve and advisory hygoino expert not of the Airforce
generally but of the Air Fleet, that is a unit of the Airforce. I do not know him.
I have never at any time given him an order and he obviously could be heard as
to that at any time.
Apart from that, this again would heve remainea in my memory in overy rJopoct since it would have astonished no somevihet, since I myself had been inoculated
against typhoid three times and I certainly did not believe that further research
in that sphere was taking place/
9 But then how do you explain it that witness Sievers in . letter
to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, dated ay 13, 1911, statee that T-ofessor Haagon naa been ordered by the ‘Reichsmarshal, the President of the Belch Research Council,
to carry out such experiments?
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20 AuG -I- GH - 3 - 1 - Blakley H0209 -0009
A This can be explained as follors: firstly, as I said earlier,
the lotter hoading fcr all such orders vhich in any way were connected with
the eich Research vros worded, the Rcich Marshall of the German neich,
signaturo, the president of the Reich Research Council, That was tho
custom in Germany: that first of all the personal title was quoted and not
the department, the office. It was, for instance, the Reich Hnistor of
finance, and not the Reich Ministry of Finance. Secondly, titnoss
Sievers hinsolf has testified here with reference to a rather largo figure
that ten thousand orders were issued under my name without that I myself c mid
have lmnovm of these orders. That, of course, would have been quite impcssibl
Certainly it was known in the whole of Germany that hardly ever has a
name boon used as much as mine. If anyone were to achieve anything at all,
ho quite happily and gaily said that the Reichsmarschall wished it, or he
would like to see this or that dono or this or that ordered.
Was for that reason that in 1944 I created a special dopartment
which prevented the misuse of my nano with reference towards such matters.
• Then what was your basic attitude regarding the carrying out of
medical oxperiments on human boings?
Ti PESTDEmT: I think the defendant has already told us what his
basic attitude wos.
DR. 3TA.Z.ER: Very well, nr. resident. Quito, Then with reference /
to this subject I Shall have no -or questions. I shellmoroly havo to
rofor myself to further questions as soon as the witness Sievers has
appeared here - I beg your pardon, tho witness Helder, from whom a statement
has boon submitted to the T,;.1 ..... . ,one frue-» "h-c has not been introduced in
evidence, so that I cannot ,+ .L:. ... - ..annot at -8 -oenb define mycttitude with reference to it.
TE PRESIDENT:
because the tribunal
but youmusc conclude
The Tribunal doesn’t know what you are talking about
nas not yet allowed the witness Helder to be called,
your examination of the defendant now.DR. STAHMER:
Lr.Prosidont. It
in that case then I believe that I have been misunderstood,
is the witness Schroiber wo are concerned with. From
50038 ohrolbor a Statorront boon cnnouncod in this court room;
Tribunal tad onncunood it. Ascion with roforonoo to at, nomony, ..15877
and the
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20 Aug-L- GII-3- 2-Blalcloy
Schroibor should appear as a witness hero; and I shall havo to reserve
myself’ the right, thoroforo —
T PRLSIDEIIT: The interpretation cow to us as Holder,
DuL, STAIIIER: Quite,
T- PSIDET: It came to us as -elder with reference to Schreiber.
D- S-AHER: 2To, no, Schreiber is the name; Professor Schreiber, I
meant. The Russian, the Russian statement.
P--S--ET: If this 'Schroibor is brought here in accordance vith
the Tribunal’s order, then no doubt you vdll have the opportunity of cross
examining. dr. Stahmer, if you vent to put any quostions to the defendant
Goering, you must put them now because tho Tribunal doesn’t proposo to have
cw defendant recalled again, she-"" t dtnoss Dr. Schreiber. be produced.
Thoroforo, if you have any questions to put to the dofondont on the subject
wic Dr. Schreiber might be called to deal with, you must out them now.
Q. Did you ever receive on order from Hitler or a special authority
in order to carry out the preparat ry vorl- for bacteriological warfare?
A- Never at any timo did 1 receive such an authority or such an order
as it is mentioned in tho letter of the General nodical Officer Schroibor
addrossod to the Soviet Government,
Did you h vo knowledge of L1o fact that your medical officers Wore
woring on such proparator work?
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20 Aug-M-GES-3-la- Blaklcy
No, and this letter isn’t mentioning the word medical officers.
It is merely talking about the —
THE PRESIDTIT: One minute. ifill you just wait one minute. Go on.
Dr. Stohmer. You will confine yourself to the matters with which you have
dealt in your written application with reference to Dr. Schreiber.
Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that the working commiinity for
bactoriological warfare existed?
That such a working community existed is A fact I had no knowledge
of. That I did know, however, was that as a matter of course defensive
measures were being worked on against bacteriological warfare. It must not be
forgotten that to a certain extent such a type of warfare had been commenced
against us by dropping insects, damaging the potatoes with potato beetles; •
and measures had been prepared in order to be ready for such warfare on one
part; and then possibly, though I do not know this for certain, preparations
may have been made for the event that the opponents might carry out such
bacteriological warfare, so that we would have an answer ready.
*. Do you know Professor Blommen?
A. No.
Q• Then in that case you didn’t give him the order to prepare such
measures? %
A. No, that isn't possible.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution desire to ask any quest:ons?
BY SIR DAVID MAX DLL- FYFE:
• Defendant I first want to know how much of the witness Sievers'
letter you agree with or disagree with. Do you agree that the directions for
carrying out the spotton fever experiments were in the hands of the Director
of the Hygienic Institute of the Reich University of Strossbourg, Professor
Dr. Haugen, major in the Modicol Corps, end consulting hygienist to an air
fleet? Is Sievers right in saying that?
Ae That I have no means of checking. It is possible.
Q• I see. Now, are you disputing that Dr. Hnagen _______ I quote 15879
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2 0 Lug-M- GES-3-2a-Bloklcy
’’commissioned with this tr.sk by the Reichsmarschall, the President of the
Reich Research C uncil," or do you again say that you have no means of check
ing that?
"* That I hve said quite clearly. I know nothing whatever about it; and
it is interesting, if you are speaking of the Reichsmarschall and the President
of the Reich Research Council, that that moons that the heading was thrt under
which all such research orders were c ..ing out.
“* T • put it quite bluntly, your defense to this is the rubber-stamp
defense th t you signature on the orders was merely a rubber- stom for the
equivalent signature as President of the Reich Research Council? Is that
what you want the Tribunal to understand?
No. That I am not saying by any means. If my signature has been
given, then it had its full value; but it has not been given; it has not been
explained. But as I have told you earlier, this was the heading, the letter
hecding of the orders as they were signed. These orders were signed by some
sub-lopartment which was dealing with these matters. Then and vherc I have
signed a letter, I alone assume the responsibility for it. It would be only too
easy for the prosecution to put such a letter before me or to ask Vr. Haogen
about it.
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" Then you 84 that 1f instructions vent out from the Rqich Rescarch* 1 you knov nothing about them. That is your answer as I understand it,
• As far as details are concerned, of course I did not know because,
firstly, that was possible meroly fpom the poant cf Mew of tanc, Far as I am concerned, my day too only had 21, hours.
Secondly, i hava -mphasized that 1 was not an expert in ary vay but that " task was to aivo sencral instructi.cbs to those men woFking an rescaroh, an order to centralise ths research work in every sphere, and secondly, to pre. vide the very large funds required.
" u you see, defendant, the letter goes on to sa, "In accordance with instructions" - ***ch ware saz : to coie ffon the Retehsmersha1, the
President of the Resaaxch ouncu1 - "In accorda,ce with his instructions. Dr. ascen has to report about his work to the Chaef of the Luftwaee. Medical Services,
A. That is possibly it is possible that he had that order. However, ho
ea not report to mo, and the Chief c the Medical Inspectorate did not report
it is for that season that "y defense counsel has applied to have the
Chief of the Hygiene Inspeetorste apean here as a witness, in to it abundantly clear.
" So that in both these opacities - in these two of your capacities -
the Reich Research Council and the Kgdteal Departnent cf the Luftmoeee
both atins without any knowledge of yours 2 In these experments wzcconcerned "™h the eonditen cf, among others,
responsible, you say both of thase bodies were
That is what you say. Is that rieht, are you
the service f or which you were
acting without your kncvdled,e,
sure it is right ?A. That is absolutely rigkt. May I give you a brief »cason shy it must 3e
right, if you will permit me 2
" "s a moment. I would like you to consider one or two points before
you eomnit yourself too deeply to that.
Do you know that in May of 191,2 Fleldmarshal was expressing yourSPecial thanks to the S3 for their cooperation in the altitude experiments ,
20 4hugus t- VB -2 Daniels
Slit DAVID l’AXlELL FYFE: My Lord, that is document 343-FS, and it isthe
letter that begins, "Doar liolff". Wolff was one of Hirler’s personal staff.
If my recollection is correct, he was the liaison between Himmler and Hitler,
certainly, at one time.
G• (Continuing) and your second man, defendant, Fieldmarshal Milch, is sayij
to "Dear Wolff" , "I convey the special thanks from the Supreme Commander of
the Air Corps to the SS for their extensive ccoperation.w
Are you saying that Fieldmarshal Milch, when he wrote that — or when
he signed it on behalf of your Medical Department — was merely expressing a
chanson de malaise and was not c onveyin your thanks to Himnler ?
A, I not only say th t, but it has been testified to quite clearly by
Fieldmarshal Milch when he was a wit noss here. If you would care to lock at th
rec ret, you will find that he is expressly admitting that I had no knowledge
of these details.
Apart from that, Mr. Prosecutor, the situati n is this. A certain method
of correspondence was employed by us, which is perhaps not quite fitting here,
but that is the way we did it. I - -licial of a ministry is addressing
a letter of thanks to someone which is not of a pers nal nature, then he
always has to write on behalf of the chief, in the name of the chief, and I
think that must be the same form everywhere.
-- I just remind you; what the witness Nilch said was that these letters
were put in front of hi 1 by your Medical Department. These experiments mainly
and greatly concerned the Luftwaffe. Are you sayin that the thanks of
the Luftwaffe and of the Supreme Co naneer, yourself, were given without any
reference to you at all ?
A. Fieldmarshall Milch die not say that the letters were put before me.
He says they wera put before him,
Q• That is vhat i said; I said “before him”. I didn’t sug ost they were
put before you at all.
A. I t probably came through incorrectly, sir. Then he goes on to say that
he thanks him politely, because the In: ■ qctorate had told hin that thera wera
no other interests in the matter since the hi h altitude experiments had 15312
20 August~MMB-4-3 Daniels
alreacy been voluntarily carried out by our young medical officers, and he
spoke about that at length,
94 But you know, it didn’t stop with your young medical officers* Your
Service provided the equipment for Dachau for these experiments*
h. It isn’t coming through:
• I will repeat that* It did not stop there. Your Service was providing
the equipment for these experiments for Dachau.
SIR DAVI MAXNELL FIFE: My Lord, the reference to that is GB-582,
document 2428- FS, which is an affidavit by the detainee Anton Pacholegg, who
waS at Dachau. He says that the Lftwaffe delivered, here at the concentration
camp at Dachau, a cabinet constructed of wood and metal, measuring one meter
square and two meters hi h, and so on* He describes the equipment*
(Continuing) Are y u saying that the supplying of equipment for these
experiments at Dachau was done without any reference to you on these arti-
cular hir Force experiments ?
A. First, it was not the Air Force which was carrying out the experiments
at Dachau, it was the medical officer of the Reserve Air Force, Dr. Rascher,
Whether Dr . Rascher obtained the order to do so from the Hygiene Nefical
Inspectorate, or in what manner, I do not know.
Secondly, it vras not timber or various parts which were sent there, but
a so-called high altitude closet* That is something I have mentioned before,
which had to be entered normally by everyone in order to find cut the reaction
of his body to altitude and pressure conditions.
It wasn’t difficult for Rascher, therefore, to address himself to the
Inspectorate and, in technical terms, to apply for such a closet or such a
chamber without giving exact details: what types of experiments he wanted to
use it for, and whether that entialed any danger for those people who were to
be subjected to these experiments.
Thirdly, I should like to emphasize once again that the prosecution has
said — for instance, at the end of Justice Jackson’s final speech he emphasi-
3ed that I had had my fat fingers in every pie. I want to say that if I held
as many offices as I am being accused of having held, then you will understand 15833
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20 August--MB-L-L Daniels H0209 -0016
that I could not possibley have concerned myself with every high altitude pre
ssure chamber which was used for experiments.
qo But did you not concern your self with the experiments to test the flight
clothing for the Luftwaffe when the concentration camp detainees wera dressed
in various types of flight suits with jackets ? I mean, defendant, you have
been a practical air man yourself, vith a very gallant record f service in
the air in the last war. What I am suggesting to you is that these matters * -
were matters that were not only within your administrative interest in your
positions, but they were within your personal interest as an ex-air officer.
That is why I am suggesting to you that you would have, and did have, an
interest in these experimentsa
Putting back your memory, are you sure that you don’t remember about
the Experiments on these concentration camp detainees for testing air cl thing'
Ao Sir David, I am not only absolutely sure that I don’t. remember, but I
am absolutely sure that it was not so. I mean, I vrish to emphasize that I am
not saying I de n’t rememoers I am saying with absolute certainty that this
was not the situation.
Secondly, you are absolutely right. Naturally, I would have taken the
greatest interest in the welfare of my aviators and also, naturally, their
clothinGe We, -the fliers, amongst ourselves, repeatedly discussed what the
best type of flying combination would be. Had I been told that combinations
which were heatable were bsire used, then I particularly, on the strength of
my own experience, would have said that I didn’t want them, because at. the end
of the last war I myself had worn - h a heatable suit and the outcome was
that I burnt myself all over.
+• Well, now, take another experimonto it must have been the same in your
Air Force as in ours, that one of the greatest difficulties, or one f the
things that one wanted to decl with, was those who came down, in our variance,
"who came dovn into the seas that is, what could be done and for what time
they would survive.
Do you say that you did not know about the cold test ? According + thi.
affidavit to which I have referred, Dr. Rascher conducted this col test
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20 August—•MMB-5 Daniels 7
That was for the Luftwaffe also. That was to see the resistance of the human
body to emersion in water. Do you say that you knew nothing about that
experiment also ?
4 I knew neither Dr. Rascher nor ary of the experiments he was carrying
out.' The symptoms, experienced by people wh. had fallen into the water, cau
sed by cok were known. Against freezing, somo excellent podor, or sSutu had been invented.
Apart from that, I knew that evarythin hid been dene in order to c ns-
truct life belts in such a way that they would facilitate breathin in spite
of the sea waves, and so on and so forth. In just the same manner, recnu-
tionnary measures as to clothin and the rescuin meth is of our opponents
were experimented with and observed by us in that respect. I remember that I
once held a pamphlet of that type in my hand, but that is all.
Apart from that, people had fallen into the water for zeny, many years,
and the most suitable steps were always taken. They moved about, they were
given alsohol, and so on, in order to warm them up a ain,
Q• .jell now — ।
A. (Interposing) I beg your pardon, Mr. Prosecutor, but there is somethin
I attach great value to, and that is this. The experiments with women, and
all that sort of thing, as they have heen mantinuc here, are so utterly in
contradiction to y view regarding womsn that I would have resented such ex-
periments most deeply. not only afterwards but at the timc.
I Eg ' [-
20 August- M- JH5-1-Ahuna H0209 -0018
Q Well, now, just one other experiment then I will pass to the question
of kmnowledge of these experiments at that time. Did you or did you not know a
that the Sanitaetswesen of the Luftwaffe were, in May 19L2, working on
experiments to render seawater drinkable in which concentration carp inmates
were used?
A No, that I did not know. But, Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to say
this in reference to that experiment and how these things developed. It vrasntt
even necessary for the medical inspectorate to know that. An order was given,
and even assuming that I had given it, it didn’t necessarily allovr for the
deduction that experiments were carried out on human beings. The medical
officer had some sort of connection to Himmler and the research department, but
also, he could be connected vith the Waffen SS through Himmler. At the same
time, there were connections in which the Luftwaffe would not have been included
in any event, every systemthich was being used was being represented up above.
Q The first letter that I put to you was dated 26 May 1912. You soy
that tho facts which Field Marshal 1Lch were concerned with, I want to get it
exactly as possible, were merely formal methods of conveying the facts of that
date? Do you remember that on 28 Jul- 19L2Hitler issued a Fuehrer’s Decree
countersigned by the defendant Keitel and by the Witness Lammers, establishin
a Coordination Staff for the 4zod Forces to deal with health. That is on July 25, 19l.2- re "es to taleo ccto of the corang taskee in tho ezcna oe
health for the Armed Forces, the 1a: Un Ss,and subordinate oxonigonc" if I "ay renind so that you mnay fit it in your momoxy, •For the purpe of a oonstructive of theso ofFLojs, a sanitaxy of thoand a sanitary officer of tho Airforco be as33enod to Thet is the sanitary officer of the A=.v. The latter, that
officer of the Airforce, in a capacity as a chief of staff,
.Field Marshal Milch ™ vtiting to Irelee abcut +hese cpumonte
work undur himo"
is, the medical
that is the time when
Two months later there
was to be Chief of staff of thi;was a Fuehrer’s mr, ..—eree and one of your officersCoordination Staff,
Tribunal that you did not know about the Fuehrer's Decreeofficer vras so appointed?
you telling the
and t hat your
A Before I tell the Tribunal my ansrer, may I havQ Would you like . a look at the decre
1588 G
20 August-JH-M-5-2-AhunaH0209 -0019
A Yes.Q I have only the English copy.
Q Yes, I probaolywill be able to understand that much. Yes, that’s
just what I wanted to find out. This decree has nothing whatsoever to do •
with experiments. It begins with the following, and I shall translate it freely,
since I don’t know English too well.
"The personnel and material with reference to the Health Inspectorate
was a temporary condition and a planned condition. It is for that reason that
I decree herewith that the Chief of the Sanitary Department...." and here I don" know which translation applies. "In order to find the solution to the shortage
of medical officers, it is necessary for joint research work to be carried out."
That topic is a matter of course* The Army vras carrying the bulk of
the nodical officers ard was a1so getting the greatest nurber of requirement. so
that it to the Sanaitary inspector who was put at the head of the departsenti
Since the Air Force was cartying the second largest amount of nodical
officers, the Chief of Staff vras chosen from them.
Q The point that I am putting to you, and I think you have gathered it,
is that on July 2 , 191,2, there was this additional interest in medical
experiment. and rosoarohshich neee Hitler issue this coordinating staff. Now,
I want you just to rozembor hOT that interest in redcal mattors me an
your service. A month later, on 31st August 1912, you secona man 121ch ws writing to Himmler. 1er Lord, this is document number 313-ps, and if you like,
the State Exhibit No .163,
"Dear IIr. Himmler: Ithaink you very
I have read with great interestmuec f _>r Jour letter of 25 August
I am informed about thethe ports of Dr, Pnscher and Nro Romiberg
to give a lecturecurrent cperime nt s. T sn, i 4. t .a—- ask the two gentlemen
the near future."Cobned with the shozring of motion pictures to men
Nov.”, as sume that ilch i
question, and thatthe truth for the purpose of thi
me di cal depar tme i itthat letter was put in front of him by the hecd of your
for his signature. Assume that if you lik
reason to suppose that the head of your nodical ApartmentThere is no
the letter he put before Milch;was tellinglies in
no reason to assume that that letter is untrue
20 August-1-JH-5-3-Ahuna
HQ209-0020
and if, in Y ur service, lectures vrere given on these experiments with motion
pictures, are you still telling the Tribunal that you, as the head of the
service, knev nothing about the experiments for your service that vrre going on
• I am only telling the truth to the Tribunal and that is: It is not
by any means necessary f or the sanitary inspector to submit this letter to
Filch because... .Jas this a direct letter to Himmler or was this Ilchtg
testimony? .
Q I an nly quoting lilchts evidence, I was asking you to assume for
the moment that Mich’s evidence was true. It was suggested to Mich that
his evidence wasn’t true. I am aslcing you to assume that Mich is telling the
truth for the purpose of my question. Zhat is why I put it that way, Now,
continue your answer.
A I am afraid I didn’t quite understand you clearly* Now, did you
read a letter from Field Marshal Mich to me or did you put the testimony which
Mi.lch put here?
Q I read to you a quotation from a letter of Field Marshal Mich to '
Himmler. And I informed you, in case you didn’t remember, that Field Marshal
Milch, that that letter was put in front of him by your medical d opartnont and
that he signed it blindly. That was 1HLeh1e evidence. 1 asked you to assume
that Mich was tolling the truth. I don’t mean that for the moment. I gg
you, as head of your service, if these oxpormente wero tho subject oe oturoe and Motion Pictures to c:m ien under yur ^telthe Tribunal that you Imnevr nothing about thom?
A That I knee nochirg hon se sorathang 1 implicitly at the beginning. 1 am not Saying that ricna (
15888
20 Aug - 11 - GII - 5a- 1 - AhunaH0209 -0021
lilch vras saying an untruth. After all, he himself said (and I remember
his testimony given here'on the vitness stand and he cleared up this matter
absolutely) that he did not render a report to me about the details of
these experiments;
Puts Sir David, may I once more direct your attention to the Decree.
That decree had nothing to do with experiments but, as I said earlier, the
connection of the three armed forces vith reference to the sanitary system
is entirely a matter of organisation.
Q itness, I gust passed the decree, you knovr. I wan your ansvrer.
Do you say that you did not know that lectures and motion pictures vroro showmn
to the men under your command dealing wich those experiments? I jub want
your answer quite clearly -- yes or no. Did you or did you not know?
A ITo, I knew nothing about it. I beg you once more to take into
c onsiderobion that the Air - Ministry was a, ministry of administration, whorcas
in eno offico l doalt with tactical matters. I woula have s topped those
experimenUs — I would have done so, even if the Russian Prosecution have
twisted the facts, I still stick to my statement. In 1934 I strictly forbade
experiments to be carried out on animals, so that I cortainlyuld have
strongly forbiddon experiments to o carried out on human beings.
Q It is not for me to comment. Plenty of people have standards
vbh animals which they do not apply to follow men. But, that is a matter
of comment and I do not wish to pursue it.
How, in lovembor 1942 — you referred to it in giving your evidence__
Dr. Raschor vos trorsforred from tho Airforce o the SS, Before he wras
transferred Timjer w.cto to l.'dcu on thu vojoc* nnd described the
experiments on the bslario of huncu organic s at great heights in D rolongc
cooling and sinila bchavi or T dxd EimmJen’s letter.
Thoso rcsoarc.es which deal vribh tho chaviol of the human organism
ab groct neights, as wrull as with cnif esbations caused by prolonged cooling
of the human body in odd water, c:.l similar problems vhhicl are of vital
importance to the air force in particular
-hen he says, Unf rtunabely you hod no time recently when Dr. Raschor
20 ug - 11 - GII - 50. - 2 - Ahuna
H0209 -0022
vroboc to report on ho oxporimoncs at thollinisory for hir Avicbion.
I had put groat hopes in that report because I believe that cho di ffi cult ios
based moroly on religious objecojons vhich opposed Dr. Raschor’s
OX orimonts for which I have assuod responsibility could be climinacod.
-ho difficulties are still the sane novr as before. In thoso Christian nodioa
circles the s bondpoint is being taken that it goes without saying bhc.b a
young Goman aviator should be allowrod to risk his lifo, but that the life
of a crinincl who is not drafted into milibary service is t co sacred
for this purpose ond one should not burden oneself with this guilt."
Then Himlor goes on to say that in viov of bho importance to ho
airforce and also th the .affen SS, "hovrovor, in this connccti n, I suggest
that with the liaison betweon you and ho iff", that is, kilch and holff,
"a non-Chrisbian physician should be chorgod who woulc, at the soo time,
bo informed of the results.
Are you saying, defendant, that you never heard, although ilor had
hocrc, that Christian medical circles vrora protesting against those
exporimant s ?
A I think you noon Ilimmlor, not hitler.
Q Iinmlor, I am sorry. Although Hiu lor lmov, you say you did not
know that Christion medical circles wore protesting opparontly, according
to this letter, publicly and insistently, protesting" against those
oxperimonos? Did you not know hnb?
A ho, and they didn't protest publicly. But I a orfully grateful
uo you fur hahg pu this letter vhich, among the mey documents vhich
have boon submiobe , has not boon cloarly put. The emphasis is unique,
but I am happy that Christian medical officers thab are mentioned
by that they mean th- Inspectorcbo of my Lutvaffo. They were my nodical
offices because they alone could raise pretests. For this reason .... that i
one of bho reasons vhy Rascher had to leave the Airforco, That ius-
omplasizos ovoryhingthat I said.
Q I vront you — again, I vault you to apply your mind tothis. You and
Ilimmlor v.’-ore still on good terms in 1042, vreren’t you?
A Until the very end. Ilimnler olvoys adopted a very polite attitude
toward mo. After all, he had to.
15890
20 Aug -17- 50-3- Ihuno.
ou toro moro han thob ithin a fow days of this lobter you
ont hir box oi cisors, ond a notoboolc for Chrisbc.s,
o0S that you woro on good tor: with lirmlor. Do you noon to sny
that you novor hocrd, that Hitlor novor heard, +hat 1Silch novor told you
that the nodical officers never said to you that those oqorinonts wore
Doing carried on and were Doing protested against in Christian mo":cn1
circles? Did ovoryono conspiro, defendant, to loop you in ignorance of
overy matbor that night bo ombarrassing to you? IIcr,is 4 the asver?
-00242 0 DUG-] ~"27077^._ 1
• The oxporimento nnc lmnoulogo of thom lavo nothin
hatovor to do "ith the crococilo briefcase ene the 210561001-. I
thc last caso you oro concornod rith chrictnas presents in o--
chango for n present vhich Hirmloz had civon me for Clirintrac o:
bohal oi ho g, and I alvays vanton to return these 1-innosso: \
Socondl7, more voron’t any efforts boing nqdo to keep no obli-
vious of those oxporimonts. ho various spheres wor. clotbo tc
various pooplo. Thoy voro subdivided into isportent • ntiors and.
into atboro "hich fello into certain d oparo ont s, ann tho
TJGionc Inspectorate was one'of thom, anc it wres izmosnilo to
bring everything to my knovlodo.
Apart fro-> that, I wish to onphnsiso that at that time l di
not hen: a public protest corin 1ror Christian circles in o-ma1
raised against such oxporimont s .Such utterances touLent, in Tae4
have been possible.
THE PRESIDENT : Have pou any questions to put. Dr. stahmor?
DR. STAmTR : f have no further questions.
THE PRESIDITT : The defendant can return to the dock,
THE FRTSIDIT : Dr. Pawlil,
DRe ALIN ; Your Lordship, non I first of al?. bow to
bo allowed to apologize for net havin: been ready for suissior of my documents yesterday, I regret that this resulted i. thc
stoppage of the trial, but the defense counsel of*the oz-aniz-_ tions had boon informed that the sequence for submission of docu
ments was different than that of the honzin- of evidence and
the sequence which I had heard uas the following s t n -■ i
Loaders, Gestapo, SS, and sD. J thorooro assumed that I would
follow the SS with the submission of documents.
15892
00256
TIE TRES-D3. : Arc you soying thrt Jou orc not
cblo non: to porticinto in cho so scion?
DR. GAVTLIK : Tos, I an ro0d-, your Tord c:ip.
Tin TRTSIDSN : I do not 1mov Lo-- -n- such misune
sten inC 0.3 3ou indiccto can hovo occurcd., bcccuso no onc tas
ivon by the Tribunal that there ould Do any alteration of the
orCor, on: council for the Ccon ants an. the de fendant on-aniza-
tions mot undorstene that thoy : ust be here v.-hon their case is
called on, on the Tribunal can't be bent . nitine ng it was
yesterday. This is the first occasion on uhic. it hns hn- onoc,
nC. tho pibunnl hopes it il2 not hnpon o ■ in.
DR. CALII : -our Jordshi2, there is a letter
dated 0.0 first of August vhch is rested on the blackboard in th
c ous cl's r o on.
the o
DR
15893
20 UC-].- U3ICV-0-6-3
T- TR SI-T2 : Dr. Covlil, - g you voron’o prosont tho other day, perhaps 1 hoc better tell you hc 6210
Tribunnl’s vishos voro and ao with rOForonco to those q-ridn-
/A Lnrgo nurbor of tk.se nffic-vits, if nol cl.1, h-vo
been SU: ■: crizcc nnd the sumcios set out in the tranecipt
before the comissonors, eno therefore, for you to i--, ~ eu : I
again of those affidavits merely creates on the transcript of tl
Tribuncl n rcpctition of th. am cpy ’.'hr ch is r Ircac- in t'o
tronocript before the co- ri o si one vs . rhe Tribunal does not doci
that, horoforo, if you will confino yourself to coentins on c
surarininc the affidavits wich :ve not been sur-arizcd before
the ooasionors, that is all bhnt is necessary, subject, of
course, to offering them in o-icencc.
anc V/hich are sot out in the ornccripo coro the com1s3Lonc
and Vhicl are set out in the transcript before tl
PR GA LIT ; '.hat wosnlt 2 intention, ov Tord-
shin. L mopol- ranter to se- :. t n 1- ---i s y c - .
hnvo boon oronslatod, anc it a fro 1 oso complctol- 2. t.
alii wits that I was coin . to w.bs 11- sub-issio . --on -
000 I hovo rocoivod onlz a part, so . t his moment I h vc not i
3 —li translation of all tl - fi"avits 1 propose c uoc,
nnc il Lorequest that I may mfwt them as and when I r coi- ■
them.
DR. CA LII : Ver- well.
(A recess is bnlzon).
15894
20 Augus t-1-JH-7-1-Saslar H0209 -0027
DR. GAWLIK: I shall present my affidavits in the order of the points
of the indictment as they appear in the trial brief against the Gestapo and
SD because I believe it would be of aid to the Tribunal by doing so. This
will, not agree with the order of the numbers but I believe that this will make
no difference because in this vray the Tribunal can see that I have endeavored
not to present any cumulative evidence.
First, I come to the point c. conspiracy, to the tasks and activities
of the SD from its foundation to the establishment of the RSHA. I have
submitted affidavit SD 27 by Dr* Albert, from the transcript of the 22nd
July 1916.
The next affidavit refers to the assertion of the prosecution that it
vras a task of the SD to obtain secret information on actual and possible
opponents of the Nazis. This refers to the trial brief against the Gestapo
and SD Roman Number Three, page 17 of the English version. In this
connection, the summary of the contents is also shovm from the records of
the Commission, of the 23rd of July 1946.
Then I have further to submit Affidavit SD No.1, by Ferdinand Zachmann,
which I hereby submit.
TT PRESIDENT: Go on.
DR. GAWLIK: The next affidavit vrill prove that the reporting of the
SD to the Party Chancellory was not for the purpose of supporting a
conspiracy. I have submitted Affidavit SD No.27 . The short summary arises
from the transcript of the 3rd of August 1916.
The next affidavit vras submitted to prove the aims, tasks and
activities of Group 3-D of the RSHA and in connection with the fact that
Group 3-D did not support any conspiracy. In this connection, I have submitter-
affidavit SD No.l0, by Ohlendorf, coming from the protocol of the 2 3rd of
July 1916.
14 next affidavit refers to the aims, tasks and activities of the branch
offices and the confidential agents in connection with the fact that the tasks
and aims of the branch offices and confidential agents vre not to support a
conspiracy. In this connection, I submit Affidavit SD 65, by Professor Ritter.
I applied for the complete translation of this affidavit but I hav not yet
15895
20 August-1-J-7-2-Sablaw
received it "because the translation ‘epartment is too busy. I call especial
attention of the Court to this affid-vit. This is one of the best lmown
German historians. I should like to read the following from this affidavit*
Question One: "Ploase toll vis about your position and occupation,
about your position?” Answers "Since 1925 I have been Professor of Modern
Historyr at the University of Freiburg.”
And I omit one sentence.
Second question: "Wer you a member of the NSDAP or any of its branches?
Answer: "No.
Third qustion: "Tera you a mesber of a resistance group against the
Hitler rogimne and were you persecut -A by it? Ansver: "Yes. I belonged to
the same place as friends of Dr. Goerdels and I was intended as Culture
Piinistor of his new cabinet. In November 1934, I vras arrested in connection
with the events of the 20 th of July* I had been placed before the court in
Berlin and on the 25th of April 1915, the Russian Army released m from prison.
THE PRESIDENT: The translction came through to us as INTovembor 1932.1
V/as it 19112
DR. GTLIK: November 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. GAITLIK: Fourth question: Do you knowr the activities of the SD
Arbeitsgemeinschaft and whore did you obtain your knowledge ?" Answer: "Yes.
2 Im owledge comes from my activity as Chairman of the Purification Committee
of the University at Freiburg.
Fifth question: ITThat was the task of the SD Arbeitsgemeinschaft?"
Answer: "First, orientation of the supreme SD leadership — do not knovr
the exact names — concerning feelings among the population and the criticism
of party measures."
For the purpose of saving time, I think I can omit the next part of
this answer and then I come to the eighth question: "hat was the aim and
task or the activities of the confidential agents (Vertrauensmaenncr)?”
Answer: "The aims and tasks were essentially the same as in the case of the
Arboitsgenoinschaft, to thich the confidential agents belonged; but vhile
the other members of the Arbeitsgem inschaft vrere used only occasionally for
H0209 -
persons
in thisa few lines
I
DR. GAIILTK:
lectures
that."
know that the branch of the SD in Karlsruhe or in Strassburg
SD."
Answer:
•es?"
went to read. I place
my Posen ation of the facts agreed in ali points with the experie nce of
IThat
1, . . ---0029he confidential agents were in constant contact with
"st please consider this is theonly affidavit which I
was mt
aim of t
it." Now
tato?" Ansver •
"Did the
s on my lectures* the activity of the SO concerning me and a nutter of scientists
Tr-bunal or mor easy for then to follow if you can sunmar;, e theaffidavit
DR GANLIK:
20 August-M-JH-7~3-Saslaw
conferences for the SD
s I come to the eighth question: "Did the confidential agents havethe task to collect and pass on statements hostile to the
known as hostile to the
connection." And then I leave out
come to the ninth question
ne SD in Germany in its reports?"
party reports the SD reports were to qive
actual facts and conditions in the field
gaps and failings were to be pointed out."
Tenth question:
Answer? tyes
state and to vratch
"I do not know any facts
was the purpose and vhat was the
"In contrast to the ‘rosyl
a picture corresponding to the
of cultural policy, in addition.
Did the SD within Germany report on your lecture
had a number of reports and stenographic note
and high officials —THE PRESIDENT:
rather than reading it
be finished:
Dr. Gavlik, J think it can bemore convenient to the
I have only a few questions and then thisffidavit wil]
but you
from an SD member but
THE PRESIDENT:
especial value on this affidavit because it
from a professor who was watched by the SDvery well
I can say that I exchanged
of officials concerning thecorrespondence with a number
those men."
Eleventh question:
activity of the SB in which it was confirmed that
'Did the SD on the basis of the
occasion Gestapo measures against you?"
I leave out one question
Thirteenth que sti on •
of your lectures?" Answer: ITNo
basis of a denunciation
watching of your
Answer: "I know nothing of
estapo arrest or
I was warned once by
hich I knew of, which did n
Fourteenth question• For vhat reason wereof mY relations with some leading
warn you bef ore becans
the Gestapo but on the
come from th
you arrested?" Ansvrer, 21 Be caumen on the 20th of July,
2° -uc 11 LJG 3-1 Porrin
I if to en th question: Did the o-aninin.0030
tic contents of your lectures? 1Tho accoptad
2] rontl notthet without contradiction. In ,
t o tliolofonso L ro-
it out of tho
lectures cn.
quest
‘prtriotc cttisuo ofquestion that tho Gostune
hc.t wC.s
F ro i o urc toword t ho
of the
1
knovr c?reports which wore basod on thetho a
u .nivorsity but
Sistoonth
tho scientific faculty inhitler Rech? lot only ciontific facult
of h- tional-£ccialisrtho mcjorit of the professors were opponent
his wes known to Drtho
10 -0cll,
whole University untile l cd announcod tho dissolution of tho
cftor the we.rovontoonth question: the SD knew of
Inswor: T.tt tuo?
con Do no —1 mt co nthoecesion cnJ Gostcpo Lio a sure s
OInsvor: I i
I 1 suDmittoc. Hensthis
nn onwhich vr 3 in the
Comission of the 23 of J,. r,e• 9 •
CE
urthorrj.sin.fj from the tr he
FurthororTiero is no
tetciPti thoroforo, I shc.11 :^ko tho follcwin- y
Zirnbz.uor ndo tT,o original roports as honorep.
he
S g't orient
cnd hen to tho S—,that 111
gont
tho rly
catt.1 guo
rts which he 1
Thon, I like to st..tobwo origincl reports which I .bio°no is a report on the supplonont of
to obtain
Iscce-LorraineUl0 oct ion and r ueclcon
upploront Twoon t © Sclzburg concert life
• rCpor
The
tl
-vo furtherDollern, crisng fror
affidavit refers to the - G one nt of
ii 11 o
port cl 10
the
the
• of July
introducti
15898
20 AUG — LJG 8-2 Porrin
to the TrLc.1 Driof c.c inst the Gostepo, ond tho S is pogo 12 of
tho Englisl vorsion, cn. on po.go 67 of the English version,
in this connection 1 suhnit SD Iuor 32 cnd c. short sun.mary
by °tte Ohloncorr. To short sumcry is in the transcript c? 23
of Juli 1946. 11 o next offidevit refers to tho assertion of tho
Prosecution tl.t the SD plcyod c relo of oxocuticn of ono or
no re tasks, at least, tho indictnont c f the SB. Roncn nu orc.1
Tro of - a jo 8 of the trenslction. In this connection I sunit
sfievvit by °t to hlonorf, an tho short surncry nrising fron
the Cormnission transcript of tho 23 of July, 146.
Tho next affidavit --
TIE P-ESIDEIT: You didn’t civo the nut or of that affidavit, I don’t think.
DI, G-.WLIK: SD -umbor 23, Your Lc r c ship, I bog your perdon.
33, yes 33. mlio next affidavit refers to tho assertion of the
Prosecution that the SD cnd Gos tape toro united in a unified
police system. This is statonont of evidence Renr.n nvnoral
Two 3, end -caan "uorc.1 Throo 3 of tho Tricl riof c - inst tho
Gostpo, cnd page 3 and 17 of the Inglish version. In this
connection I have subuitted SD Nuabor Tvo by °tto Ohlondorf
the short suncry arises’ fron the transcpipt of tho 9 of Jul-- • 9
1.946.
Turtheruaoro, SD Tubez 34, a short suzczy of the contents
is in the transcript of the 23 of July/ 146. SD 1wmbc, 33 .
Dr. ^offnann, ond the short su.ury is in the transcript of the
23 of July, 146, and S ZTuu.bor 36 by "londor, and the short
surncry of the contents is in the transcript of the 23 of July,
‘46• With the next Affidavit, I went to provo that tho SD had
no executive povor. In this connection 1 l ve su”mitted tie
affidavit SD Tu or 20 by Alfred Kutser,on the short gwcu.
ci the contonts crisos from the transcript of tie o of July ’46.
The next two affidavits are a supplonont to the affidavit f
Dr. ilhenn Ioottl. mho Prosecution docuent ?s 2614. I sw-mit
in this connection a supolomenttry cffidavit SD ITurBop 37 A,
Wilh0l, HocttI.
15899
H0209 -003
20 . .ug -1 LJG 8-3 Porrin H0209 -0032
—E P-SLDEIIT: Thot hc.s boon suruttod to tho Comiscionor, hcs it?
DR. C-lU-I: Yos, Your Lordship. Tho surniry is in tho
transcript 01 the 23 of July, '46. I have asked that this
affi evit bo translated corpplotoly; ond 1 sunit the conploto translation,
1 further suuittod on this point SD ITvnbor 38 by T00
Gchrenn, ond the short suzmery of this afric vit is in 6: e trona-
crig of the 23 of July, 146.
"ith the next affidavit -went to prove that tho s- had no
influonco on tho selection of S. fuehrers. This is a st tonont
of Jvidonco, Renan nunorcl Throo 3, pego 16 c? the Tria’’ „:of
CC ins - ho Gestapo and SD. In this connection I subnit affidavit
SD 2 by llax Juottner. Tho short suncry of the affidavit is in
the transcript of the 9 of July, 146,
—ith the next seven affidavits 1 want to prove that tho
SD and no influence on the selection of Party leaders, Thhic refers to S+tonont of Evidence, Ronen nunornl Throo 3, po.co 18
of tho English Trial riof. I subrit’ SD Numb or 5 by Otto
Frohzor, for the foruor Gau Lci nf rankon. SD Iubor 6 "y Utto
Biodcrnenn for t:.c fornor Gau Murincic, SD“--op 7 . s,.Uoozroithor for tho fornor Gau Coringic, SD lTurbor 3 1- Carl
Wahl for the fornor Gau Schvbon, SD ITumbor 0 1 ?cvl w.
for the fornor Gau Orondonburc 1osa Es. SD Iubor 10 by -0pt
H C-enn for the former Gau of Uppor Silosin and host me:.
Sav th.
Furthormoro, SD 39 by Adcu Toortsch for the fornor Gau of
PPo- - a.ria, I do net yet have the trenslction of this. I shall hand it in later.
-ho next emfidevit refers to the assertion of the Ppococutic thct to SD cxanlno the Loyelty enl rolicallty cf tho et.to o-
ficicls- Stc.toment of Jvidonco Hlonen nuzbor Thrco - ci’ th. . -0
3rio-, FnCo 13 of tho aclish vor-sLon. In this connection I
havo auzusttod affidavit SD 3 by Tiornor Uc,i. no shopt sumezy of We contents is in the transcript of the 9 of
15900
2° 4uG 1 LJG 8-4 Porrin
"ow, 1 cono to critaos eginst 20c.c0. uith tho noxt affidavit
I went to prove tlac.t the SD, in tho borlor instance of August of
1939, tho SD was not ozployod, cna that tho non.bors of tho so
did not he vo any kmnovlodgo of it. Stetonont of Evidence, Ronan
nuzhox Fivo, pago 23 of the English version.
15901
20 Au -l-GH-9-1 ynos
-0034
in this connection affidavit SD II, by Dr. larx. The short smmery of
the contents is in the transcript of O July 1946.
How I eerie to the war crimes, "Statement of Evidence" VI A of the Trial
Brief against the Gestapo and SD, ptgo 25 of the English version. In this
connection I submit affidavit SD 41 by lari lcinz Bent. Tho summary of the
contents is in the transcript of 23 July 1946.
I have , furthermore, submitted'on this point SD No, 42 by halt or
Schollonborg• The summary of the contents is in the trosctipt of tho 23
July 1946.
I shall submit tho complete affidavit of SD 43 by Heinz Tonningor and
SB - by -obo Ohlondorf. The sumnary of the contents is in the transcript
of 23 July 1946.
- haze submitted on this affidavit SD 45 by Ervin Schulz. The suary
of tno contents is in the transcript of 23 July 1946.
I have submitted on this point SD 43 by Otto Ohlond rf. The
sumary of the contents is also in the transcript of 23 July 1946.
Tioh the next affidavits I went to prove bhcb tho memhers 2 f o
Lol oqbschnisbo — the Leaders Units, 'the Aussonstollo — Bronch efPtccs,
am. the Vortrauensmannor — confide nticl agents — had no Imnowrlod o of the
activities of the Einsatz cruppen in the East.
-n this connection I have submitted SD No, 47 by Tilholm Duorhof, which
refers to lmnovlodgo in the former Gau in South lonnover and Braunsciuroi .
SD 43 by erl Icinz Bent refers to Imcwlod^c in the former SD sector in
Socbsin, -roslau, Duossoldor?,
49 by Adolf Kott refers to lmovrledgqn the for SD sector for
Ncus c.d id Saarbruoclcor
Those three affidavits were submisbed on 23 July 1946
ieh -h° next —fidavib, hich refers t the assertion of the Prosecutio
nt tho SD Abschnitt Telsidb participated in the liquidation of Jov
isbs in the border incidents, I shall submit a comploto trens on of
my affidavit SD 12 by ilholm Siop ■ ary of the affidavit is in the
ti- nscript of £ July 194
2 Aug — 1.1 - GII - 9 - 2 - IIcynos0035
-ho next afidevit refers to -'’rosecution Document PS 1-175 ond n
Ssrsenon of Evidence” VI-A of the Triol Brief, page 25 of the English
verson. In this connection I submit the affidavit of Corti Broitor, SD 69.
dth the next affidavit I vent to prove that the SS itnjor Puetz, zdontione
on PGC° 26 of the English Trial Brief against the Gestapo and SD, did net
bolong to the SD but the Gostopo,
tn this connection I have submitted affidavit SD 50 by Heinz Temingor.
The summary is in t. • ‘ranscript of 25 July 1946,
The next affidavit refers to "Statement of Evidence” VI F of the Trial
Pric ", page 54 of the English-tent.
Tho subject of evidence in Prosecution Documents PS 553, PS -193, ona
PS 532, is not the SD Inland Anrt III or the Foreign Information Service
of VI or VI, but the Security Police. In this connection I submit affidavit
S. 52 by lholn Keitel. The summary of the contents is in the transcript of
23 July 19-16.
Tho next sub-act of evidence io that tho SD did not por-tisato au 1ync2
Juotioo. I havo submitted SD SI by eltog Sebolleaborc. Summary of the
co. cents is in the transcript of 23 July 1916.
Burthomoro, SD 68, by Hane Steiner. The summary of the octotte ao an
the transcript of 3 August 19-16.
Tho next bwo affidavits refer to the assertion 6f the Prescaution that tSD . rdered prisonons in tho prisons, in
liberated by Allied troops, "Statement
Enc ish version of the Trial Brief,
ordor to prevent their boing
of Evidence” VI J, pngo 56 of the
I havo submitted SD ] 3
is t e broscript of 9 July
sa_o transcript.
by Horst Lavbl. T.e sum-,, cA L1. . ." "--J O 50 convents
1940, CD 14, by.Fritz Tolfsrandt, is in tL,
tno X rosect t the Scip in the forcible co
and private propertyo cm ent nco" VI K, pegc the 5A version. In
connection I have submitbo The sur the contentsis script of 9 July 1946
15903
20 Aug - H - GII _ 9 - 3 _ laynos
Tho noxt affidavit refers to the assertion of the Prosooution that the
SD porsooutod Jows. "Statement of Evadcnoc" vI A, English Trial Brief.
I have submitted in this connection SD 16, by Halt or Koinz. m. summary
o tho contents is in the transcript of 9 July 1946. Horoovor, SD 17,
by 1 Housnann, is in the .mo tr-azsoflyt. A16o, sD 6s, sy maa FHooecho1,
in tho transcript of 23 July 1946, and SD 54 by Dr. Laubo in the .one
transcript/
the next refer to tho cherbo against the. SD of persecution of the church,
"Statoront of Evadonoc" VII B, page 63 of the English text of the Trial Brief.
I have suonattod in this oozdiootica SD 55, sumery ce tho oontozts
being fa the t ransoript of 23 July 1946. TTaltor Kainz, SD 18, an tho
transcript of 9 July 1946.
I shall submit later a complete translation of SD 19 by Helmut Fromm,
summary of the contents being in the transcript of 9 July 1946.
15901
H0209 -0036
003720 iugust~]I-JF-1O-1-Lesser
"ith the next affidavit I want to prove the methods, aims, and tasks of
the SD in the Government General. I shall later submit a complete translation
of Affidavit 3D 56 by Helmut Fromm, sunary of contents in the transcript of
23 July 191,6.
"ith the next affidavit I want to prove that the Police in France trere
called SD. I have submitted in this connection an a f f icavit by Dr. Laube,
3D 23, summary of contents in the transcript of 9 July 1946, *
The next affidavit is submitted as proof that the members of the Gestapo
and -IPO in Belgium and Northern France vore the S3 uniform with the SD
insiunia. I have submitted SD 21 by Walter Hofmeister, summary of contents
in the transcript of 9 July 1946.
With the next affidavit I wrant to prove that the members of the SD in
Belgium and Northern France did not belong to Amt III. I have submitted SD
125 byalter Hofmeister, summary of contents in the transcript of 9 July
1916.
ith the next affidavit I vrant to prove that belonging to the SD Amt III
during the war was in general not voluntary but vras based on legal order.
In this connection I have submitted SD 57 by Bernhard Dilger, summary in
the transcript of 23 July 1916; SD 58 by Dr. Ehlich in the same transcript;
SD 59 by Karl Heinz Bent in the sametranscript; SD 60 in the same traz script •
and I submit SD 21 by Oskar Eisele, summary of the contents in transcript of
9 July 1916,
ith the next affidavit I want to prove that withdravral from the SD was
not possible. I su omit SD 22 by Wrner Day, summary of contents in the
transcript of 9 July 1946.
The next three affidavits refer to the tasks, aims, and activities of
Amt VI. I shall submit later, SD 51 by Walter Schellenberg: the sumnary of
the contents is in transcript of 23 July 1916. Furthermore, SD 62 by
- iter Schellenberg, summary of contents is in the same transcript. I subm-
f rthermore on the tasks and activities of Amt VI-3, affidavit SD 66 by
Otto Sorzeny.
The nezrb affidavit refers to the aims, tasks, and activities of Amt VII
j. submit this affidavit provisionally. The Commission did not deciclo Wiethe15905
(
i.-giye
20 August-I-JF-20-2 -Lesser
0038
A VII was chargod. The chairman of tho Comi.ssion told mo that tho
Tribunal would decide this question. It is SD 63 by Dr. Dietl, which I shall
submit later.
The next affidavit refers to the assertion of the Prosecution that the
imdisration offices had the purpose of carrying out evacuations with the aim
of poxanont colonisation of the occupied territories, the destruction of their
national existence, and thus constantly expanding the German border. (Trial
Brief against the SS, III G, pages 33 and 35 of the German translation.) I
have submitted in this connection SD 61* by lartin Sandbergor, summary of the
contents in the transcript of 23 July 191,6.
Bow I have an affidavit to disprove the affidavit F-961, submdttod by the
Frosocution in the examination of Dr. Hoffaan. I w not able to subnat this
affidavit to the Commission because to Comsission had already concluded its
activity when I received the affidavit. Therefore I ask that I ay be
allowed to submit this affidavit under SD No. 65.
TIG PRESIDENT: You have one 65 already, haven't you? It camo
through the translation.
DR. GAULIK: That should bo SD 71, your Lordship. From this
affidavit I shall read the following, briofly: "parst, to provo knowledge
about the facts given, I, Georg Sclirebel, was in Brunswick as Government
Councillor in 1939, temporarily in the Reich Criminal Police Office in Berlin,
and from 1911 to 194,5 as Section Chief for Personnel Questions in Rain Office
Security Police of the Reich Ministry of the Interior. From January 191 on,
I was also in charge of the Personnel Department of the Secret State Police,
Gestapo. 1 last rank was Rogicrungsdiroletor and SS Standartonfuchrer.w The statement: "At no time in the existence of the Gestapo and the SD were
there instructions or decrees from the Chief of the Security Police and the SD,
or the Reich ministry of the Interior, according to shich tho aotivat oz mno Gestapo, at the head or at its aconcios taroughout the Rich, vns to so
influenced or supavicod by the SD. The agencies of the Gestapo were at all
times completely independent. The independence and the separate division of
the State Police made general influencing by the SD impossib1c. sucgc would not have been permitted by the Office Chief of IV or the Chic- of the
15906
-003920 August-l-JF-10- 3- Lesser
Security Police because this would have interfered with the actual
responsibility of the State Police." I ask that I may be allowed to submit
this affidavit when I have the translation.
Now I have a collective statement on 6,123 affidavits. I have not yet
received the translations. I have onl the French translations and I ask tha
I may be allo;red to submit the French translations. I submit the list on
these affidavits. From my collective statement I ask to be allowed to read
subject 1G regardine participation of SD members in executions in the areas o:
commmitmnent. I have 110 affidavits on this subject of the agencies of the S.
from all parts of Germany for the time from 1939 to 1945, vhich s tabo the
following: "The agencies and members of the SD Amt III had no knoulodro of
the participation of SD members in executions in Einsatzkommandos in the East.
15907
20 Auqust-I-JF-l1-1-FitzecraldHO209 - 0040
NoT I come to the presentation of my documonts. First, I would like to
submit that my documents are also numbered according to the Trial Brief arainst
the Gestapo and SD. The first document refers to the charge of conspiracy.
irst I submit as Document SD-1 an arrocmont between Himmler and
Ribbentrop to establish a uniform German intelligence service. The document
has already been submitted under USSR 120. I quote from this document the
folloving: “The secret intelliponcc service has the task, so far as foreign
countries are concerned, to gathor for the Roich information in the political,
military, economic and technical fields. The Fuehrer has orderod in addition
that the secret intelligence service, so far as foreign countries are
concerned, should be regulatod in accord with the Reich Minister of Forcirn
Affairs ."
Number 2 is an excerpt from the spocial plan of the security police and
the SD, I shall not read this document but I will call the attention of the
court to the fact that althouph Amt III and Amt VI vrero united vith Amt IV and
Ant V, Amt III and Amt VI had no police tasks.
The next six documents Sp-3, SD-4, SD-5, SD-6, SD-7 and SD-8 bclone
together- They are excerpts dealing with the Reich's Ministry of Justicc;
. SD-3, the Reich Traffic Authority; SD-], the A~oncy of the Reich Food Office;
SD-5, tho Reich Forestry; SD-6, Reich's Ministry for Armament and Tar
Production; SD-7, the Reich's Ministry for Food and Agriculture; SD-8, the
cooperation of those agencies with tho security service.
I call the special attention of the Ceurt to the tasks set for the SD in
these documents. I furthermore submit theso documents as evidence that these
things Trere the task of the SD. Thay had to cooperate not only with the
State Police, but with all agencies of the State.
The next document is SD-12. With this I want to prove that the SD, in
the years around 1936 did not have the significance assigned to it by the
Prosecution.
The next document is SD-13. It is an excerpt from the circular decree of
the chief of the SIFO and the SD of tho 16 of October, 1941. This .document
shows that the SS and police jurisdiction effected only the regular members of
the SD, not the honorary mombece. The majority of the members of the SD were
15908
2 0 Augus —-JF-11-2 -Fitz gerald0041
honorary and were not under the 33 and police jurisdiction.
The noxct document is SD-1L. Fourteen is an excerpt from a decree of
the -arty Chancellery. "Only the Ioheitstracgor of the Movement from
hr i ’letter up are entitled to issue political evaluations or certifications
of political reliability."
This document refers to the Trial Briefs acainst the Gesteo and the SD,
S ■ tenent of Evidencc, HI and IV. The same subject of evidence concerns the
nc: t document SD-15. It is an cxccrpt from the RSIIA n the 1st of Junc,
1910, This decree shows that from the 1st of July, 1940, the information
bureau of the Amt I, SD, will be transferred to Division IV C 1. That is
for political information of all kinds. The Gestapo Amt became comoctont
and the Gestapo had no support from tho SD.
The next document is SD 15-a, formerly called PS 3335 submitted by the
Pros cution, but the SD was not at all thc information service of the Party.
Withi.n its politic' 1 organization, the Party had its own political report.
And from the Krcislcitor on up, it had expert technical reports from all
offices.
Document SD-16 is an excerpt from tho memorandum by Hitler about the
task of this four-year plan.
VTith SD-17, I want to prove that theactivit of the nembors of the SD
in the occupied territories was not voluntary, but vas bas ed on Lc al order.
I quote from this document "Refusal of departmental personnel to undertake
employment in occupied territories."
15909
HO209 - 0042
2 0 -UC-A-PIZGIR/LD-IH-]1- 1
1 -13o quote "Tor mombcrs of poroonnol in public service to
0‘ cpt ork in plncos other than the rogulor place of service
h s on principle been opprovod. Since a limitation to the Moich
te ribo 3 is not ntendod, a staff nonbor -- providcc tho tors
of the special service order have been compliod witl, o:ocinlly
0O in oi e of or-- has to follov adobochmont in t: o occupied
territories too.i
ith the next docuonts -10 to SD-22 I went to re
fute tho assertion of the Trosocution that the sr h-scocinl
re a lat ions in iris oner-of- hr Carps in order to socro-abo
racinl3 uCosiroblo persons an- to execute them m-;.1 - rie" a-
• ini 6 hc Costopo anc the S, pt-ton ent of Tvidonco, VI-.
in tho case of Docunont sD 18, it is an o:cor- Iron t
Chief of th Security Police and the S. I call the attention of
the -ouzt to tho £ilo note, IV—. -hio refers to the juzisdictio:
o- the octnpo. -ho decree is furihororo addressed to all stote
rlico officers and the comen cr o: the security police in
Lublin.
■' ocunont ST)-19 in the next Cocunont. I should like to
call too a tontion of the court to the file note t ,+Tron hin Cocnont. 'The regional and branch offices of the
Cocbn2o are ogoin requested to bring to a rapid conclusion hos.
oxcinations vhich are still under wej,3
ocunent -20 is next. nis docuront concerns the la : r c on1i t tuont —
- — FRS-- : Dr • Cavlik, what is the necning
SD-19, ParaGraph 2? The writing refers ocpocinlly to various
fiod and then "No. 9242 Top Gocrot, according to vhich the
soloction of all priconors o. v; r io to benndo in the futuro in
onzn1 “ovornment only."' Tov do you select prisoners of tn
nnb does that mcan?15910
2 0 AUG-A--ITZ GLRALD-IH-11-2 H0209 -0043
DR. GATILIK 8 Tliot is the charge vhich the Prose
cution lies madc. I vant to poivo that this aS done by the
Gostopo alone. In this decree it is ordered the tn these selections
are to be carried out only in the Covornont General in the future.
This is no t relevant in this connection, hour Lordship. I am
only interested in Taragroph 3,
TIC FRESIDEIIT : But it is a document of the SD, is
it not? It is an administrat ivc ruling, is it not?
DR. CAILIK : hour .ordship, the Chief of the Sec
urity Police and the SD had 70 offices. for this re son it is
import-nt which of his offices acted. Office 4 was the secret
Police, Cc: tn po. Office 3 ves the domestic SD. Office 5 was the
Boroirn Service. Each of these offices hcd its orm chief. Office
4 is another organization. ver those offices rcs the Chief of
the Security Tolicc of the 3., This title Coos not show what the
SD had to Co with it. One must examine which of his offi os did
it, whether it was Office 4, 3 or G, And where I have called your
Lordship’s attention to the file note, IV-A, that was Ofico 4,
the Secret State Police, Gestapo. "his shows that Officer. 3 and 6
had noching to do with this matter, only Office 4. This is again
shown by number three hich 70008 empress ly only to the State
Police offices.
TH IRESID-12 3 Very well, we will ajourn no.,
(A rococo wea taken until 1400 hours.)
15911
-12-1-Karr
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The honrine rcconvener 1400 hours, Lugust 20, 1946).
DR. Gi/LIN: In nsvor to the last question of y our Lor ship. I think it
ol- 3sist the Tribuncl if I briefly incicntod the direction o? my evi 'once
o . whot - propose to establish by moons of that do cument.
It is cssumed by the Gestapo t • Security Police nne SD were inovendent
orsoniznti nS• The Gestapo is inlict:d separately, the Criminal lolico is not
indictoc an the SD is indictod as a unit of th. SS. Above all of then st oc
the Chiof of the Security Police an the SD an" in that small way it can he
com or cd with the petition of the defendant Gocrin,, who s the Supreme
Comnon or of the Airforces, Prussian Minister an1 President, Primo binistor and
Hunting Master. Thus, from the addition of the Security Police and the SD you
cannot draw the conclusion as to which was which and that becomes ap-aront fr-m
rhe raferenco and filo numbers on the people who ."cult with those files m-1
am trying to establish that by means of my document.
j. now come to ocvment SD 20, hi ch deals with the emloymont of Soviet
Russian prisoners of war. One paragraph deals with the very question which
your Lordship addressed to me ith reference to prcvi us do cumonbs and shaltherefore, rend the locument.
"In order to avoid any dolny in the removal of nourly incoming prisoners
of w into the Reich, the selection of political commissars and directors by
“ebaclments of the S ourity Police will be carried out in the future in the
General Government only. In the General Government the selection is further
carried out by the Sccurity Police."
ith th t I am trying to osta _sh that we are here purely concerned
with the measure of the Sccurity Police and not the SD.
It then goes on to say:
,;ln order to insure a more rapid execution, the Socur ity Police will
reinforce its detachmonts in the Genoral Govornmont."
I then pass on to document SD 21, In connection vrith this document, I
bog to draw the Tribunal’s attention to the file reference IV, that is to cc ■ "e
wo are concerned with measures of Department IV end Department IV was the
15019
20 -A-TES -12 -2 -Korr HO209 -0045
Secret Stote Folice, The Gestapo. Hn it becn the SD then the file reference
would have been III or VI.
THE PRESIDENT: In the document you have just been dealin with you
have got 2 III E at the top, and ycu have III E a little bit further down.
ijR. GA ILIK: Your Loriship, the higher one is the genoral colloction
02 decrees of which there are several volumes which I got from the library
here and it is with reference to this general collection of decrees that
2A HIE refers to and then the file rcfcrence is IV A (1 c) 2468 A B/42 G.
THE PRESIDENT: Just by the first of inril, 1942, there is III E.
that does that mean — OI! File No. 2F 24. 73, ' prisoner ofrwrar organization
3 E?
DR. GA LIK: I have not got that. Your Lordship, I have not rot thot
horo, I do not know at the moment.
T IE PRESIDENT: Immediately undor the "ords: "re: labor detachments
for agricultural work.:
DR. G.I IK: Mar I beg to ask -pour Lordship, did you refer to SD 21?
That is a military file reference, your Lordship. It says 0117 Supreme
Comuand of the armed forces, file rcforcnce of the armed forces chief of
prisoner of war organization III E and that III E has nothing tc do with
De p or taent III’
T. E PRESIDENT: All right, go on.
DP. GAWLIK: I now come to ‘ ent SD 22, as we are there concerned
with extracts from the directives for the detachments of the chief of the
Security Police to be assigned to the prisoner of war camps for enlisted men.
Tho date is 17 July, 1941.
I bog to draw the Tribunal's n bention in this connccti n. to the fact
that the chief of the insatzcommand 3 are ordered to get in touch with the
chief of the nearest State Police office or the Commandor of tho Security
Police and the SD*
In the case of the commen.or it is a commander similar to that of the
Security Police an.-' SD; he too had several sub-deportments o III wras SD, IV
was State Police, V was Criminal Police and so this type of commander does not
20 ‘u S-12-3-Karr0046
ay cither with which deportments we are concerned or which dopcrtment w orkod
on it
I shoul1 like to row the attention of the Tribunal to the fact, however
whicl is contained
"Is a matter
in the foliowin.- sentence
of principle, such communications must for information
bo communicated to the RSH IV A 1,”
From that it becomes evidence that the measures were only dealt with
in Department IV that is the State Police, and that the Department III had
to ith it
7 a 9 1D.L
20 August-A-B-13-1 Blakley
H0209 -0047
The following documents SC-23 and up to SD-28, inclusive, refer to
the allegation on the part of the prosecution, according to which the SD had
carried out the decree "Kugell Bullet, I refer to the trial brief against
the Gestapo and SD statement of evi'ence 610, and I shall first of all deal
with Document SD-23.
The document has already been presented by the prosecution; but it Vras
given the number 1650-FS, being the teleprint letter from the Ges tap; to the
sub-department Aachen and to all leading state police departments, I qucte,
in order to prove that here, too, we are merely concerned with measures by
the Secret State Police.. the Ges emo.
"To this j I order the following 2 1» The regional offices of the Stat
Police are to take over the recaptured escaping Fi officers from. the Stalag
Commanders and to transfer them to the Mauthausen concentration camp, accor
ding to procedure which is customay till n owunless circumstances make a spe
cial transport necessary.
"2 The 0117 has been requested to inst act the EV camps that for the
purpose of camouflage the recaptured persons should not be delivered direc
tly to lauthausen but to the com etent local office of the State PolicecI
I then come to Document SD-24.
THE PESIDENT: Thy do you leave out the fact 6hat those, documents
were addressed to Inspectors of the Sipo and the SD ?
DRo GAWLIKs Your Lordship, the case of the inspectors is the same as
that of the chief of the security Police, in that it indicates the c mmanders
The inspector was above the leve f the Criminal Police, above the State
Police a and above the 3D. That is to say, he was exercising all three func-
tions *
THE PRESIDENT: Accordin'- to this he vras an inspector of the SD,
DRo GALLIK.3 He was Inspect.-- of the SD; but that would not allow the
conclusion that he was also simultaneously inspector of the Security Police
the Sipo, in the same person, that when carrring out that activity he was
carrying cut activities in the capacity- of the inspector of the Sipo,
20 August—A-MB-13-2 Dlakley
me are here concerned only with personal union but to c unteract that prisoner
of war were only to be taken there by the regional offices f the State Folic
that the SD Service Department had nothing to do with ita it says the re
gional offices of the Soate Police are to take over the recaptured prisoners.
as the inspectors of the Security Police had jurisdicticng they were acve
the regional. Police Department and hai control of these mecusres of the State
Police in his capacity of the Secucity Police. Also simultnne usly he was
inspector of the SD; but that does not mean that these things were to be
carried out by the sub—departments ' the SD,
I come to Documenb CD-24s It has already been presented under FS-1165
and in this oonncicn l beg to drew the attention of the Tribunal to the
fact that this is signed by Vuzller, vho, as is known to ths Tribunal, was
the chief of Department TV. This a. ..in shows the sole res, nsibility of the Gestapo.
Document SD-25 is e circular -ocree from the chief of the Political Po
lice of the SD, dated the 20th of October, 19L2, which deals vith the treat
ment ox escaped Soviet Russian pris.ners of war, and aain I beg to draw the
attention of the Tri uno 1 to the file reference, which is EV.
I will now quote: "I request that the regional main offices of the
State Police instruct all the polio. offices f the area, even if it has al
ready been done, acccrcing to Article 3 of the decree of the High Command f
the Armed Forces of the "th of May, 1912,
"ay I say to yur Lcrdsoip in this connection that if this had ben nged
to ths tasks of the SD Department then the SD Service Deptrtment would also have had to be ermed,,
IEE 33 Ter ? Da, Genljk, I don’t think it is doin ary good at all
to argue each document over. You must make your final speech at some time? and
unless there is angchin; really very important in a particular document which
you want to draw our attention to - that we can really consider it before you
make your final speech, you had much better leave the argument upon the docu
ments until you get to your final speech. This is simply westing your time without having any useful purpose at all.
H0209 -
20 hugust-A.MB-13-3
DR. GA.LIK: Your Lordsbip, I only did___
Blakley
HO209 -0049
THS Hs-ENT: Vel1, up to the present you have commented upon each Pocu-
nentas far as I can see, sD-22, SD-23, SD-21, sD-25, cach cne them; and you are going through the book like that® thy don’t you offer them all in evidence
in bulk; and then if you want to draw ur attenti n to ary particular decu-
nent for some particular purpose as I say, because you think it is important
and we should consider it before you c.- to make your final speech, do so.
But don't spend time in just explainin what each document is. We have to hear
all the other organizations before we come to hear your speech.
Dn. GMILIK: Ycur Lordship, I only did it because I gathered from the
question your Lordship put to me that there was some lack f clarity with re
ference to this point, namely, the position of the Chief of the Security Police
of the SD and the commander and tha inarecters.
THE PRESIDENT* I only put a qucet n to y u because you were goine thr u-h
each document in turn and I couldn’t w ler stand what the documents were about.
DR. G-vLI: Documents 27 and 28 also deal with the allegation on the
part of the prosecution regaining the decree "Kuccl" Bullet. May I gerhaps
"ote from Document No, 28a "In as far as Soviet Russian prisoners of war
are returned prisoners of war captured and brought back t the camp according
to this order, they are in every case to be surrendered to the nearest office
of the Gestapo."
The following documents, SD-29 t SD-,2, deal with the accusation raised
against the SD y the Prosecution, according to which they are to be held
responsibly for the institution and Gesignation of concentration camps and
for the transfer of political and racial undesirable persons into concentration
and extermination oam,s for the purpose of forced labor and mss extermination.
That is page 43 of the British trial brief. These documents show that the
SD did net in any way participate in these measures; and, if 1 may, 1 should
like to read one sentence of Document SD-29, "In the future, restrictions
of -ers-onal liberty in accordance with Article 1, of the Decree fcr the pr -
tecthn of People and State f 28 February/ 1933, may be ordered only by
the Secret State Police Office with ef.. -6 for the entire state, territory and
20 August-A-B-]3—4Blakley 0050
by the governors of Provincos ane aresidents of government districts, by +ho
polloe president in Berlan and by the state polico (Gestapo) branch ofekcsc for the local sphere of their authcrit-w
Fron Docuaont 82-31 1 qucte: "Protective custody can be used as a
measure of the Secret State Police in order to e moat any activities hostile
to the state and the people. Only the Secret State Police is entitled to the
decree of protective dustody.t
H0209 -
20 nug-I-GES-14-1-Daniols .
Document 37 deals with the allegation by the prosecution according to
which the SD had also administered concentration camps. I shall, therefore,
quote one sentence from the documents
"The comp commandant of concentration camps is in charge of any ccon nic
plan of the SS within its sph.ro of organization.”
ho administration of the camp als becomes part of document SD 38.
ThE .RESIDEIT: I can’t see any int in drawing our attention to that
document at the present time.
DR. GLII: In the trial brief the accusation has been raised against
the SD that they also had administered o acentrati on cemps.
T IT TRESIDEIT: But this document doesn't show thtt they did not.
DR. GAvLIK: Document SD-37 is a decree from the Chief Economic Depart
ment of the Administrative Main Office. That was a completely different
department, which had nothing to do vith the RSHA
THE PRESIDENT: -t seems to me to be quite vague as to who the comp
commandants f concentration camps are. As I say, it doesn't seem to me to
be a document vhich it is ncccss ry to refer to nt this stage.
Da. GLIK: I then refer to docum at number SD-39. There it says:
"The transfer of the inspect rate of the Concentration Camps into the Economic
Aministr ti on Mnin Office has eon carr.- out with the full agreement of all
main offices concerned. "
From this it becomes apparent thos, first of all, concentration camps
were under the j risdiction of the Insp ctorate of the Concentration Camps, and
that they w rc then tronsforrod to the R Economic Administretion M nin Office.
Howovor, that w- s part of the RSH.
The fact that concentration camps were under the jurisdiction of the
Inspectorate of Concentration Coms als : becomes, appier nt from the previous
do cumon t, S D-3 8.
I beg to refer you to document number 40, in which it is explicitly
siotod:
THE FRESIDHTT: (Interposing): You are not taking the slightest notice or
what I said to you. Y u are going thro. h every document, or practically every
15010
20 lug-A-GES-14-2-Daniel gH0209 -0052
"ocument — not every document. You bogan this by saying that 29 to 42 dealt
vith concentration comps. Then you vrcab to 37; then you went to 38; then you
wont to 39. They really don’t help tho Tribunal at all. You h-vo tsld us
that 29 to 42 referred to transfer to c noontration camps. Tcl1, that is
dui te en u' h• Unloss there is a document which is really important, which wo
should study before we hear you innko yc r speech, the sunmorr that 29 to £2
deal with transfer to concentration on s is quite enough.
DR. GA.LIF: I had thought that I would be assisting the Tribunal by
drewing their attention to tho fact that concentration comps came under the SS
Economic Chief Aiminis trotire Doportnen’ and not the RSEL. Only for that
reas n di' - discuss those furthar 1lsewuonte.
Document SD-43 to 49 lecl with tin nocusation that the SD had portici-
pated in the deportation of citizens f the Eastern Territories for the pur-
.pose of forced labor, an". that they nr the task of supervising this f reed
SD-43 shows the jurisi tion of the State Police.
I quote from these documents onl che following. From document 43,
under figure "2":/
"The tasks arising from the cmgloyment of Soviet Russians are to be
coordinated vith the Soction and the C to Police, if proper, from the
Regional Office,and are to be handled a criminal police officer under his
direct Chief of the State dice Rogional Office."
I n W quote from Appendio 1 to, Documont 43 one sentence: "The rocruit-
inr of la or rem the former Soviet Rus inn territory is carried out by
recruitment comissions from the Reich Ministry of Labor. The recruiting
cormissions of the Reich Ladr 21 nistr will create recepticn camps."
Document SD-50 denls vith the Comando Order. I be.i to drovr the
Tribun il ’ s attention to the wrords ".are to be handed over to the Security Police."
Documents SD-51 up to and inoluc. ■ 3 deal with the assertion on +1
part f the prosecution that ho GD h.d the task of protecting civilians wh
had lynched fliers belonging t. the All ’ Nations.
20 Aug-A-GES-14 -3-Danio) sHO2O9 -0053
Document SD-54, already in evidence under USA 504, PS-668,deals with
tl • carrying o ut of ’the Nncl ■ and Nebel decree'.
ocuments 8-55 up to and include : 57, deal with the assertion on the
P rt o tho pros cution that the SD, i summry procecdins, had arrested
citizens of occupied territories and took them bof're tribunals and courts and
punishod than.
I b°G t- draw the attention of t Tribunal to document SD-55, which is
.Is? --316 , an fron that I shall quote one sentences "Forcig nationals are
in the future to be turned over to the police.”'
i quote one regulation, one sent, co, from document SD-56: "Pennl
aotions of Jews are punishod by tho nolico."
Doczancats 53, 53-a, 53-3, ond E-6 deal with 'the assertion on the part
of the prosecution according to vhicl o sD had cooperated in tho conf isention
by force of private property. $
From Document SD-58 I shall quoto ne sentences
"The confizcntion will e declare! by the main office of the State
Polico in favor of the Reich oi Greater zneny,"
SD-59 ana SD-60 deal vith the tiird-degroc methods durins interrogations.
15 C.
20 Aun ust-A-J-15- 1-Ahuna
-0054
in this connection x bor to drenr tho TyLbunal’s attention to Rozsan MumoraJ. IV which deals with the jurisdiction of Departrant EV, Soczot Stato Police. In document SD-60 are the oxistine roqulatione applicable to theSccurit rolico. The documents
reforence to the SD according to6o- up to SD-6l deal trith the illegality in
which crimnes against humanity are to besutaittod. SD-60-a up to 63 deal with tho persecution of Jews. Documont
62 - In connection with this document I beg to dran the attention of the
Tribunal to Roman Numeral IV-B, an
SD-l refers to the reports against
the churches.
also tho signature "Muelleri. Document
the SD in reference to the persecution of
The document SD-65, up to and including 69, deals regulations on the strength of which during the w, a me.
with the lawful
portion of membersof the S Department HI and V wora celled wp. From document SD-65 1 shouha
like to draw the attention of the Tribunal to tho follotrine sentence.
"AS consuers"’ and I shall a fos:vords, "... thc SD soctors
are, durine war-time, based on the requirements of the popular donands an refcrence to the trials of prisoners.”
I now come to document SD-70, rocarding vhich I have unnblc to
400 with the Prosecution. I should like the Tribunal to mabeo a decision,
therefore, regarding the question as to whether or not I an aMloxa to
introduce this document,
DE FTES2D21/7: J tovc only eot one document book.
• oalzk: It is in the appendix, your lordship. Your Lorasha;, may I send up the original?
THB FCS™: Yes, wali you tan tho Tribunal what it is about?
DR. Cat™: Vath this document I am first going to try and prove
that the SD did not belong to the Police and did not belong to the S3. j
shall furthermore establish, by means of this document, that in the tne
S and the Security Polico "ere separate ot-poinLzatons and 1 want to provo th
different tasks of Department III. I bos to draw the Tribunal’, atonton
to the fact that in Section IV the SD is called to Gorman Intelligence Service
THE RSTET: This is a book produced by the Allied Commission, isn't it? Supreme Headquarters, Allied Commission, and you are offering Lt,
15020
2 C Aurus;-A~JJ-152 -Ahuna -0055
is that it?
DR. GATLIK: Yes.
TIC RESIDENT: Has there been any formal application for this document ?
Dn• GAl/LIK: Oh yes. In ny appendior to the document book. There
the document is included. But I have not reached an agreement rocerdingthat
book with the Prosecution.
Tk PIGSIDENT: We will hoar the Prosecution about it.
LT. COLDAIDER HARUS: ley it please the Tribunal, vre have no strong
objection to this document. It is siply one of several which wo discussed Iand we did not agree upon it. Our objection is primarily to its value insofar
as intelligence is concerned. It is an intclligence book and therefore what is
had in that book is of a purely intelligence nature. It is dated April, 1915.
That is the date of its publication and, quite obviously, as of that date, the
information could not be available as is now available to the Tribunal in a
competent fora.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Lordship, may I . . .
TH PZGSIDINT: You may admit the book for that it is worth.
Dit. GAVLI.: •fell, then, first of all I bog to dravr the Tribunal’s
attention to the fact that in this book tho position of the State and the
Par ty is sub-divided into four parts and tho intcllisence service is piven a
section of its own — Ronan Number IV. Roman llunbor I is the Police; Roman
Nuunber II is military Units; Roman Humber III, German Police, and Roman Humber
IV, is the German Intelligence Service: The organization that is of
Department III and VI.
I then begto draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that in
the case of the SS, it states that the SS consists firstly of the Jaffen ss
ord th.en ox the General SS, and the SD is not listed there. And I Purther
bee to drar the Tribunal's attention to the fact that the intel i j n-on.ee
service mentioned under Roman numeral IV is sub-divided into the SD in the
Reich; under Roman numeral II the organisation of the Security Police, and
the SD outside of the Reich, and thirdly, into Department VI.
And then I bey to drar tho attention of the Tribunal particularly15923
2 0 Augus t-A- -153 -Ahuna -0056
to the following statements regarding the activities of Dcpartnent III. There
it SayS: "The information supplied by intelligence agents are divested into
reports. These reports arc extraordinarily frank." I translated that
nyself "They contained a complete and undisturbed picture of the attitude
and frame of mind in Gernany." i
I no j pass on to my last document. That’s a letter from a 1
clernyman ohlfass, and I submit it because I just received it lately and I
have not had time to have it translated. me letter refers to a document
vhere the SD is supposed to have supervised the illegal. . . and in that
document there is an assertion that the population had voted "no" and had
submitted the vote as "no’’ to the letter. And then follows the statement
that no measures woro taken against the father who has since died. This
completes my sunnarization of documents.
Tour Lordship, an I to submit to the Tribunal an inden: or am I *
to submit that in writing where the documents can be found, that is, on what pages?
TEE PRCSIEIIT: I think to ha.vo pot that. Haven’t o got it at the
ocginnins of /cur docunent book? te havo an index.
Dn. GA. IL IK: Yes.
PESIDENT: Are you qoinp to make a separate document of it?
DR. CAVLIK: Yes, I vented to say here that I have the ori-ina
docunente• I only have some of the original documents, some of them are
documents of the Prosecution, of course.
TE PEESIDENT: If you think it mould serve a useful purpose^ by all
means submit your index under a separate number and deposit it vrith the Tribunal.
DR. GAILIK: Very vrell.
T PRSIDEAT: • .Dr. Kubuschok, Then youvrere dealing with the witnesse.
We vo dealing with the Reich Cabinet next? Are you prepared to go on with
your documents? ’15924
20 Aug-A-GES-16-1-illiams -0057
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Kubuschok
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Altogether I have four affidavits. They have beensubmitted to the Commission. They are bein translated, and the translations
I shall submit them at r later stage, and I shall confine"s0 today to submitting a few very important passages from thoso affidavits
which I shall read into tho record.
The first affidavit is No, I
later Minister Dr, Otto Meissner
this
That is from the Secretary of State and
I shall read the following passages from
affidavit
First of all, Messner deals
wi th the first period after Hitler
this
"th the work of the cabinet,: particularly
had formed the government; and he states in
connections
'The Reich Government worked according to previous custom; that is tosay. draft laws were decided upon at meetings of the cabinet
dur inp whichoooe 033o0thons o raisod• Tho supcrior and uncontostod londership
or the rovorment w-s mitlor. Fight From the serannin-, vho, in tnss conncot- ion, "as bnsin his actions, fonmUy spenkeine, on tho 102e10naccording to which the direction of the police
upon by the Chancellor. These directions wereof the Reich
ao different
was to be decided
he stated publicly, ropoatodly during speechesfrom those which
which he had madc."A little further on, he savs that* "3 that —l the important political decisions
such as the annexation of Austria, tho mrch into the Sudetenlanaof the pact with Italy, the mrch into Bohemia and
the signing
against Poland and the neutral countries,
resolutions' being passed by the cabinet,
tion’s being passed to the members of the
personally informed by itler.
all took
and even
Just like every other
the radio and the press
Moravia, and the attack
place without previous
without previous informa.
Eoverrment unless they had been
oitizen they lcarnod of thoso ovonts only through
The members of the Peich govornment wrorc +hus6°" o"" pollMoal ootivity, their will vithout ny
on their part, and they were lamtod to tho managing of their aoportnent.
They were merely leading civil servants in their department.
15925
20 Av -A-GES-16-2- illicms
H0209 -0058
Any possible intention on Hitler’s port to bopin A vr Tre.s th rForc
net rocornizeble by those ministers, no more thon were intentions regarding
tho uso of his power for actions in violation of existing international law.
Tho affidavit further deals with cho lav of the 3rd of July, after the
end of the Roehm Putsch. Finally, the affidavit goes on to state as foil ows,
"that members of the Reich government, in spite of the increasin'- brutality
of tl . course pursued, romnino in their offices, nccorline to my own
obser ti n, n .apart from the fact thet principally the Fuehrer woul not
, 0ocot iosi nations and p rtioulcrly in war time, considered the reduction of -
the ar aed strength o-biroly due to tho fact that at least middle class
minis rs were un‘ or the impression that by their resignation their deportment
woul’ be all the more headed by untrained cfficinls. In that manner they
woul not only have damaged the legitimate interests of their departments,
but ■'-hey would have surrendered themselves totally to attack.”
Affidavit No. 2 originates from the former Reich Minister barre : and
I q etc:
Foreim political quostions of principal irportanco were, cccomline to
my m-mory, not discussod in tho cabinet. In no case wero there during cabinet
mect nes any utterances of, even lints from which nn agrossive war could be
inferred J*
A further part of the affidavit states:
’’I emphasize that no agressive plons against Poland were known to me,
and tl t as fir ns that is concerned no tasks were given to me in ny capacity
as lilister of Agric ’ uro".
orre then goes on to describe his differences with Hitler, and he state
"During a discussion with Hitler about this subject — and th nt was
bofor the actual creation of the Law — there had been orcuments about this
law, hich Vas to be introduced into the occupied territories. Thor was a
ver-’ serious clash,-in tho course of which I resigned. Hitler thereupon
rep- tod th .t I was subject to the laws of war, and that I would hive to Ie we
my sit ion as end when he, Hitler, thought the right moment had come, nd not
when I thought it best to do so.”
15926
2 0 Aug-A-GES-16-3-i lliams
H0209 -0059
How Dorro was finally eliminated from his position becomes apparent in
the last part of the affidavit. Hitler had given orders to Darro. I quotes
'For the outside world I was to report sick, and it was desired that the
public impression should be that it was for reasons of health that I should
temporarily leave my office. I refused, however, to report sick, and I was
told to leave Berlin. After that I lived in a lonely blockhouse in the
Schorat Hei 1o, out of the world. Formally speaking I remained a minister unti
the - llapse of the Gorman Reich, although I asked Lammers rcpoatedly to remov
my n ne from the budget, and Lommers had actually reported to Hiler about
this point.”
Tho third affidavit comes from the former mi ist r in the ioh. Count t
Schwerin Krosigk. Schwerin Krosigk describes in one part of the affidavit a
meeting with the former Reich Chanccllor Brucning in 1932. I quote:
"I waspart ly in agreement with Bruening, who, 'a few weeks before his
resignation, had told mo at Baden Teile, vhilo we were oth takin ; a vacation,
that the time had now come to give responsible positions to'the National
Socialists. In the long run one could not resign by means of the emergency
laws published by the Roich President, and the strongest party could not
pern .. ontly be left in the position of the opposition. Unbounded agitation
on th part of National Socialists could only be effectively deleted by means
of gising them full responsibility."
In a further part of the affidavit, Schwerin Krosigk points out that it
ves -P the 30th of January, 1933, when he saw Hitler for the first time in
his life. I quote:
"My joining Hitler’s cabinet was due to the reason that I, together wit!
al? the other bourgeois ministers, wanted to form a count er-balancc to the
totalitarian claims for power put un by the party."
Regarding the initial period of this government, the affidavit deals witl
this at great length? but I shall quote only one sentence:15927
20 Au nst-A-JH-,16A-1-illiamsH0209 -
"-n additi’ n, the course that wras followed at that time appeared a
moderate one. That objection raised on the part of the bourgeois ministers
did, in fact, lead to alleviation of certain hardships, even to the cancellatior
of certain legal rulings which had been proposed.”
Regarding the joining together of the office of the Chancellor and that
of the Reich President, the affidavit states among other things:
"Hitler’s demand to hand both offices over for his ovm purposes and
thus completing the last step in a totalitarian reign could not be opposed
by the bourgeois rinisters, because it was perfectly clear oven at that tire
that such a powerful position of Hitlor corrosponeod ccrplotoly to the will
of the German people."
mother point of the affidavit states rath roference to this somequest! n - and I should lite to romark in this connection that Hitler hinself,
with 3 Roronco to his demand for holeLag both thase positions, made this
demand acceptable to the cabinet by stating that he did not consider that to be
the End solution, but that he tock no fosponezbalatsEee a 1atoz noego -2 tnoo
twe f lice a — surnerily that the Reich Gevorment as such had no political
tas 3 as far as civaing orders or leadership tasks ww concerned, because
persons as such were acting -ho ttere -orecna11y and specially chosen.
At the end of the affidavit Schrin Krpsigk states:
"Upon retrospective reflection I must maintain that Hitler deceivedhis ministers no less than he d 1 the German people.
above that heover and
deceived the
intentions vre"ortd- The statements he made to us, the Ministers
peaking no differenthe made publicly. That his vill tras
from those
considering the convincing power of his wor
to his repeatedly emphasized will for pocceThis a
not be expected
particular
as November, 1937, Hitler was •
foreig political eins, then t
am told today thatthinking
is is diametricallyleans of achieving his
opposed to vhat he told me at the beginning of 1930 or -
• ‘ - 1 ad expressly communicated to me throughSecretary of State Reinhardt, namoi, that Tn! *ex, „a_ . - ' 1 not worry about armament"P 383 sne8 now we had before us a long poriod of p
a roction of those very expenses.and through it
Finally, with Affidavit NO,L,- propose to submit1 5928
an affidavit from the
20 AugustAJH]6A-2-TTlliams-0061
formier ministerial director, in tho 1inistry oe hisname being Rudolf
Harmeninck,Harmeninck describes a task given by Hitler to Secrotaxy or
. State Backo, Thich deals oroe , m . 1 Perations for war for the Russian campaign.nore are explicit instructions in this ec, .4-. . . "us from Hitler according to which the
himself, Darro, is to be kept in the dary mecopg ." ' r recarding th os preparations.
And concerning that, I quote: "A " nths before the outbreak of war with Russia, moasupes wr,
.. ■ ■ m.tbe Reich "nistry of Food, which, for instance, ontazzea th40 ins To o nefcultural nachnaty and aCrLcuztura velors for a speoial7 after tho bocimnang oftha RusedanXLTT m - soen even - -—2 7 7 b cut the—Dare. 2 eact,they had to be kept secret from +1-
moe, ,, _ 1 accorling to instructions attached..
T are tho — 1 to submit" x have a &ccunent book altogsther 60 aocuuntedubmitted to the Tribunal* which I have
13929
2 0 Augu s b-(- JF-17-1-S as lavH0209 -0062
I rofor lo this document book as follvrs: In tho main, th c donunonts contained
toroin are cho official, reasons and ofricial points of vicr vitn roforonce to
tho di afb J.ars of that particular period. Tloso laws were attacked to tnc
draft la3 and ciralated amonrst th various ministers. Vhntever is contained
in bl0S- arcuments is therefore the reasons the individual minis tors trer. ' ive.
nbh ocreuoc to the admittedly proposed lant. Perusal of these arguncnts
'..ill she rith which pertinent reasons these Laws wroro justified. The
-- nininn documents which I have subm:tted, are tho f ollomins : 1 si. uld like
bo drau 3 2 pttention particularly to No. 3, the lanifcsto by the Eich
Goronn.cnt to the German people, f of 1933, ccntcininp thc directives for the
policy of 60 cabinet.
ocunont No- 9 contains official information from thc loaners of tlo
parties which trel’o dissolvi.as themselves in thc year of 1933. The individual
part Lcaden in this document*confess thcir belief in the not course of tho
eovornont and-they are calling upon ticir ollorcra to follow this covernment
and support it.
-ina-ly, I refer yov to documont No. 63 which is nnarticlo by Rich
liniutor von Donbc.F, Roicisministor for Ter, on thc subject of Cormany s
col Llsory military s crvico. As far as the remaining questions are concerned
and par ticularly tho vork i. the organization, witnesses Lau ere, Teizsacckor,
Gocrine and von Ncurath had bcu heard at considerable length. 1 - 6 the
-1i una- to Cnsider that testimony vhon considorinp the case of the Rcich
Covonment; and with that, 1 r. President, I hnve c.c to he end.
TIE TES DEIVT: We will adjourn.
(A recess vm taken. )
TIE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelclmann.
nt. PELCKIANN: Your Lordship, the Tribunal: I refc first to the
tranecript on the examination of vitncssos beforothe Commission, which the
Tribunal no doubt ins. There wolu twronty-nino -itnosses. Then I o. 'in with
the prosentation of documents. t have divided tho documents into various
roups so that I hope I can finish the presentation very quickl-r. First, the
documents Nos. 1, 2, 3, 5, and 8. The first tierce documents dcal vitl the
sO-callod "idoals" of tho SS; somot ine is said of the community of morals and 1597 0
2 0 Auqus t—-JF -2 0-2 —S aslavr-0063
so Corih; and proof is niven that tills vras tho basis of the braininr.
Docunonb 5 ECys that the nombors of tho General SS carried out their
non 7. c.-vi- occupation and the SS Service us only supplonntary.
Docuncnt 8b makces it clear once more thiat the SS vras a branch of tho party
and .a conorcst to tho other S3 forr.tions, vhich I shall present later. This
"uas represented by the NSDAP in case of coplaints.
In docuncnt No. 6 and USA Ll1, - ich I subnit once moro, the basic lavrs
of the SS are montionod which, for tho individual mon, woro Lmnrs which decidedly
decent — population rocardin savings and sc Corth. I nust present what is
important for m final plea.
Docvnenb b and 103 belong togothor. Docunont L shovrs that the SS non
swore an oath which did not differ fron that of the old civil servants but did
cifor rom that of a solditr, for tho soldier swears absolute obedience but
the SS man does not.
15931
20 Aug - A - GII - 1G - 1 - Porrin-0064
Locuonc 1-5 donls with tho fact that this oath was made in God’s
110-8 » i lor snys in roforonco to that that mon who donot boliovo in
God, I considor tho mon to have mogolomanic ond to be dunb. They are not
s ablo for us*1’
Documont 4 which I just quoted, shows once moro that the SS-
Voruojungstruppo n1). the S3- Toto? kopf units did not belong to the General
Ss -on they did not have civil occupation, they worc state employees.
And in case of complaints against those members or these formations, thet
moans Si Vorfuogungstrvppo and th. lotonkopf units, the complaint is to be
liroctod to the Ministry of the Interior. This is very important for the
concentration comp question.
Thon thoro follov do cumonts 8, 9, 10, 11, and 42. During the war
eno -nfen So was orontod. Its norbors are instructed t fight decently
on- chivolr. us ly ana not make thons elves guilty of punishable action in
to . rony country toward the civilian population, and to respect the
prisoners of war onc. the doad. For tho nombors of the Woffon S3, which iI
show especially by document 42, the basic rules of the SS apply only whon
cho inclividuol loffon S3 men 'wore c the same time members of the General
SS. For example, the so-called marriage order. The ideology is not
cppliccblo to tholnffon SS men, or the Vorucgungstruppo SS gen vrerc not t
subject to these special laws of the SS.
Docunonts 13, 14, 15, where the SS is accused of the plundering of the
occupied eastern territory, these oovnonts show that the laws in this
respect were issued by the Deputy of the Foyr-Yoar Plan, Goering, or the
1 inis cry ei the Intorior, Frick. 1o task of the Rcichskommi,ssers for
Gbrongtheninc of Gormcnisn and of tho lctioncl German Agency wo ro the
rosottlonont and the return of Gor..cs, This is shown by documents 15,
16, 17, 13, 19, 20, 22, end 23. Documnonts 25, 26, 30, 33, 34, 40, ona
USA i submit as evidence that the civil service law, the omorgency
roculation, eno constitution of Geramn studonts, the agreement betvroen ti
Hoic.1s Tuoh-ors, od the Rcichs Youth Leader, the Reichs Labor Loader,
the Reichs Financc minister, represented forced measures which made it
Possilo for Germans to be placed in the General S3, the Teffen SS,
Veruegungstruppe 3;, the Totenkcop? units. Even the police auxiliary 1 5932
20 Auc - a - GH - 18 - 2 - PerrinH0209-0065
assistants oro forcibly placed in tho sstonoz’e Auxiliary. Documents
29, 30, 31, end 32 om bo put togot:ot. n»y dvo ea oxp1o ce cuon
oofuaF obligation* a. just no Loroc, y ■ roftin asto tho Gonor1 ss,
afon SS, end the ss Vorfuogongstruppo, Dcouzzonte 29, 36, 38, and 39
she" that citizens or foreign a co fer as thoy rro oe Cummqn
dooo* not drafto: into the catv of their respective o nurtrios, but
1 * the efCon SS. This «. based on state treaties. The Goouiozts shot,
further that largo or mall crsupsce potsone woro Ecrolly plccod udor ss
duricdiotion vltacut being SS uonbors, and voro loft under thoir old
eupetona1 dosi-nctiqn but wit tho addition of the tern "ss11.boounent. 48, 65, 64, 67, md 60 Goc1 mro cr 1080
compulsion oxerted on police officials to loin the s,,.• join -ne boe This wos demanded witi the oxpression, "I theror ora expect
15933
20 August--JH-18A-]- Perrin H0209 -0066
that so-and-so will joineco." It was demanded by continu us inquirics as to
vthethor the person had joinedo Even merbers of the order police, the
Ordnungspolizoi, were also more or loss forced to join. Court officials,
doctors, young officers, and non-cormissioned officers vara also pressed to joi
the SS. Cn the other hand, documents 52 to 55, and 56, show that the merbers
of the police who joined the SS in this way did not carry out ary 33 service.
They were also not obliged to perform 33 training# The only sign of the
membership in Hie SS was that when they were promoted they were also promoted in the SS.
Finally I have to deal with documents 65, 66, 67, and 68, which are
purely external SS designations in police units. The Battalions and re imonts,
as well as fire prevention, police units, that is, units of the fire department
received the designation SS as an external sign of rocomnit: n as it is montie
in the decrees. As an excanple, I mention in this document, the Second
Gendarmerie Battalion which boc2l the Second Ss-Gundamario Battalion; or th.
police regiment "Alponlane"" vhich became the SS police regiment, and so forth.
The documents show further that in spite of all this, these S3 police
regiments remained with the Ordnungspolizoi, that they received their equipment
from the Ordnungspolizoi, and everything else was attended to by the Ordnungs
polizoi. The individual policeman of these regiments, by this SS designation
for the units, did not become a member of the Genera SS, nor a member of the TTaffen S3.
Finally, the following documents deal with the question of to what
extent the members of the SS knew of and desired the crimes charged by the
Prosecution. Documents 70, 71, 73, 75, 76 and 79 are taken together. Throng:
constant speeches, Hitler pretended his unchangeable will for peace, m.
govornmont also stated +1 "t it ... . _u ‘ "m-e- to preserve peace uncler all circunstancThe paper IDas Schwrarze Kopgi (- . ■ 4
-- , De--n- —lese Scomenbs, vrote that theSS did not 1ike vrap. , . ,--- "—3 2 sobemenb of January, 1937 ma-e - +-3-. ...-3 ‘-‘3 --- — - -C statementsabout opposition to T- a. Accuzanta 77 78 ehcrr thet even cubetcorslife tho Azetrken 2sho,e mna ths E-glish Oovemant b e, infce sooz 1930, w
deceived.15934
H0209 -006Aug 2 0- RT-A-19-l-Hayne s
The Geran--nglish peace declaration of 30th Septumber 1938 is well known.
It expresses the will of both peoples never to va.go wr against each ■ thor age; r
By -ocumont 80, some official statements on the nature and character of the
Sa and the $S, it is shown that neither the Sx nor the 33 wero armed and wre nr
given any training with arms and vere not trained otherwise for milit.ry purpos.
I assort that here only for the case as the SS.
-ocumont 81 and supplement says that on the 16th ipril 193L the Ceran Go--
ment offered the English Government a guarantee of the fact that the S3 and the
SA had no arms and wr re not trained for military purpeses.
Not only outwardly w"s this thesis maintained, but also ri thin the SS, in
this case. This is shown by 3 document 82. It is a secret Fu hr.r Decree of 17
ugust 1938. This Fuehrer D.croe states that the SS as a political organization
of the NSD..P is not a military organisation and needs no troining ana is unarmned.
It states further in this decree that the membors f the Generl-that is the un
armed—33 are at the disposal of tho l’ehracht in case of war, in accordance wit'
the provisions of the National Defense Law, and not of the Wafeun SS.
A small example of the doception of the masses on the peace ains: It is
document 92, according to which it is a law of the Tich Gov.rm nt that any
participation in the Spanish Civil ar in any form whatever is subject to prison
punishment, although thousands ware fighting in Spain on Hitler’s orders at the
time.
Documents 87, 88, 90, and 99 show the following: Through th, law on the
transfer of dof nsivo strength, the prohibition against list ninq to f rci-n
rat io, any sproading of the truth—-and I take as an example the sprtad; n of ric
on concentration camps—is in practico made impossible.
This pol cy continued strongly during th vrar. That is proved by Document 98.
it is the well knovm speech of irmler in Poson in 1943, ocum nt PS 1919. I rof.,
only to one sentence, in which it is said that, " Cheever is disloyal, be it even
in thought, will be cismissed from the SS and will be scen to that he will be re—
novod from life."
On the Jewish question, there are documents 93 and 95. In February 1931 the
Rcich Minister of the Interior, Dr. Frick, said to the diplomatic corps that the
only intention was to reduce the activity of the Germans of Jewish faith in pro
15935
Aug 23 -RT-I -19-2- Haynos H0209 -0068
portion to other Germans, but it is ex-r gs. qon;, .,-4 , ..‘ ----- —omled that forced emigration ofthese citizens would be undortalren
rp-he other document. Number 95, proves that in* • - 9 -v-- I-- - —3 -l’S-
tructions of Jews wore underwray, a law rmt . . . ,"3 a created a settlement in Theresienstadt fo
Jewish citizens* This, consciously or unconsciously, served to deceive the 2301.about this exte rination, and it deceived th. SS members too.
The events of the 30 June 193L arc dealt with in Documents 83, 100, 7. 105
-nd 106. ha public did not learn th truth. Through tclgrams of Heich Fresid nt
von Hindenburg to Hitler and Hering, Eblur was thanked for taking steps. Aos
telegrams were published in all papers. In his speech of 13 July 1931, Hitler doj
cribed in detail the preparations Rosha had taken to overthrow the government’-, h
he was in contact with foreign Countries, and how an SS Fuehrer, who w s nantser. ed by name, had prepared to attack his life. The situation . presented as so
urgent that only immediato action, without judicial proceedings, could do any pood. This speech, furthormoro, promisos the punishment of -q
this act-1 n.
Pocument loll givos a sketch to supplemont of the t.sti-ony of tho witness
von Sberstcin. Th actual position of the Eicher ss end the e
clarified.
The Document SS 107. I w s able . o;. :4.,1* X b OO &-V- It o the 1 r S ecution only chis
morning. I ask that it maybe accepted, sine r hav- .. g . • x,‘ "1- X mVe Just iound it in the coll cion of docres. It is a dacruo of the eichsfuchrur - of 27 nuqust 1922. Inas
decree expressly states that the main office of the Volkedcutsch ttt-1- ll0"
not an SS office but a state organization. "mle question is important for the r .
spnstbiuity of the SS in the So-called smsandztian program, -ns document has
not yet been translated. I shall attempt to have translations ma as quickly as possiblee
- hat is y pros ntati n of Pocunents. Your Lordship.
Now I come to my affidavits. in the examination before the Commission and i
the examination of the fivs witnesses before tile Tribunal. I could brine onlv
witnesses tho, because of their high positions, foul’d give the Court an ext net-
survey of certain questions. “Ith the affidavits the Defense had to attempt to
present as large a number as possible of statements on the whole material of the15936
Aug 2-ET-/-19-3-Haymes 209-0069
Indlctoont, if possible, so that the Ocure maght obtain an 1zstghe 1nto th;
knowledge and deeds of tho mass of small people; I have attempted to do so in
the fern of individual affidavits onertain points and in gathering together
largo numbers of statements on certain groups of subjects.
I submit first 114 single affidavits. They are SS affidavits 1 4 60, 53,
6, 68, and 69, 71 to 118. affidavit amber 70 is made up by +o SS members. It
contains the contents of the affidavits of the internees of one camp. ca, Ko.
73. It refers to almost all of the. points of the indictment against th SS.
Then I submit the evaluation of 136, 213 individual affidavits and collect,
ive affidavits. I have given the numbers 119 to 122 to this.
Fnely, the digest of a questionnaire which w s sent to all camps under th
Number 123. I regret that I cannot give the Tribunal the texts of these nencav
in English today. .s far as I know, translations into French are v, ■ .
affidavits, and I shall attempt to turn in the -asush translation as soon
as possible. I shall hand over the French translations.
15937
2 0 Aupus t-A- JF-20-1-Losser H0209 -
I then {ubmit SS affidavits of Dr. lorcon, 65 to 67.
S3 affidavits 61, 68, 69 and 70 1 personally consider cx6col inportan
I consider then sc vory inportant..,..
TH PRESIDENT : Which are the ones you scid woro vor • importani?
DI. PSICKIAITT: 6L, 68, 69 and 70.
THS PRSIDLIT: Yes. Go on.
• DR TELCKIANNI: I had asked for their translation. I have not
submitted any sumarics before tho’Coruission, only the tholo contents can b
eiven. No. 70 is for the question of loral hqavine of the aims of SC men.
It is as important as the presentation of tho digest of tho 136,000
affidavits.
In order to shorten my presentation I have ..laced individual aizidavits
• in eroups and I hope that by civing those mbors I have .ado it posslc for
the Tribunal to have'a few of the individual affidavits.
Group 1 contained the affidavit that tho S3 vres a conspiracy in which n,
distinction can be nade according to composition or to tine. mis is assert
b the Trial Triof on pace IX and 2 in the Corman version. In addition in t
transcript on pages 1607 and 1608 of the 19 th and 20th of Docc cr.
SS affidavit 116, Petri, proves that the Fuehrer’ Order of 17 Aunis t 1931
USA 3, does not have the purpose of forming an orcanic connection betveen .
General SS Death Head Formation and Vezguop unes truppo but on the contrary to
support those individual branches of the SS.
Now I sum up a group of affidavits, 13, 62, 19, 10, 1,2, 56, 55, ,5, 51,
97, 96, 53, 50, 51 and 38. Of these affidavits I might ramark, your Lords
thero is a translation in English of 52, which is bcine distributed. I beg
your pardon, it is ony in French, your Lordship. Tith these affidavits I
Prove tae ‘ollvuin: Certain groups are charged in the general indictment of
the SS, They cummot be brought under the concept of a common conspiracy bee
they had only a very temporary relationship to the SS or none at all. Other
sponsors of the SS, the Farmers’ Leader, tho so-called honorary fuehrers, the
SS Front TTorkcers, the so-called SS railroad construction bri-ado, the postal
protection, the national political education institution; f ur ercc, the
Leaders of the Roich Harrier League, (that is somcthine sinilar to uno St-uhl 15938
H0209 -00720 Aus us t-A- 1-20-2- Le s s er
he SS sport comunitios. furtheror, the Reiber Groups vhich vrere
transferred to the SS, known as so-called SS Reiter Stuerme, xdich had c.ct1,
the 8c0 c-arc-eterietics and history as the SA Reiter Stucrio; and Aar"cruicro
the s tudontsttho vero tckzen into tho " n a cozpulsory basis.
Tio following two affidavits, 118 and 101, deal with the Lebensborn
or-anizattoa- They prove that the 60: 1s of this organisation wore to cu ort
etilios of nan children and to care for children and nothers, including
illoritinato children and unzarsiod others, but they did not involve the
opportunity for illegal begetting of chilron as the prosecution has asserted.
S3 affidavit #L7 is a valuable supplement to l. Lcstco Of ..
Lioolicht, an SS doctor, before the - 'ion. It u +0. .
taken into the SS exclusively on the basis of their technical cilit.
loading doctors and loading authorities were taken into the SS to raise its
prestige. It is assorted that tho activity of the SS doctors of the Gonc-..
SS srccormi.z0d by foreign countries, giving oxcaaplo of int rnati0no1 authorities.
SS affidavits 1To, og and 96 . i, +1,. .. - cr T* , r " - P—° ' ile 010 S3 lomen’s League were not members of tho S3 and were not sponsored. These girls nd the sone nc ivitios
— Wo information and staff assistants in Wchsmnoh and must nt be
confused MW We female supervisors in the concentration camps for female
prisoners.
There follows a lars or cr01. of .. X* rtu -- °- --cev6s on tie question of Gormanization an extensive and very di //1-17+ .e .— P--- of uno -ncictment. Aflicavibs No, 2S 112m, 113, 110, 115, 1A, 71, 73, 78, 77, 79, 11, 16, 72, 7, 76, 78 aa 80. Ea,
I add at this opportunity that in talein- ech a lerpo-roup to-othoz, thaso
individual affidavits are not cumulative, but the affidavits supplement each
o e . onl in this way could a complete picture be made of the points of
the indictment and Weir defense. These affidavits prove that We Volksdcutsch
attoletollo and tho so-called Staff aun Qefice of tho Roich Oeruziesoz Eog
Wo Strengthening of Germanism - I repeat, vellesdoutecho attclotozzo ona
Stabshauptamt des Roichskonmissars fuer die Fostigung des Deutschon Volks turns _
were not SS agencies but rero State Offices.1 That is We formal side th -
lefansc. The material shows. fro -,4 ,"3 -- --UT pare cx those documenbs just quctod1^39
H0209 -007220 August-A- JF — 20—2—Loss ar
taat -cho S3 did not have anythin to d vith the evacuation measures,
Cormaizaton measures, and the settlenant of Germans in the occupied torritorios.
SS affidavit 89 proves that the Chief of the Trisonor of S-g
after Hirmlor’s appointmcnt, was a pu-l- .chrmacht office., even
15910
H0209 -0073
20 AU C-A- TIZGERALD- -21-1
nan Ei I lor wOs nppoinooc cho: of tho ppicono-o-
system, nothing vaE changed in the orcanization of 62 -pisoc:
of-ver system. The SS ospcciclly "id not oxort on- influonco or tho ozoc omont of tho prsonor ' ? tar.
I vill refer no bo no:t group of affidavit, rho-- 0cc1
’ - ih0 ascortion o tho prosooubion thet there hen con -0l: U"
us. This took plnco undor ho cocallod iHighop a on- folic
Locdor." That assertion of tX prosecution is on Tec 12 .. if
of the Gorman Trial Bricf. It io in the transcript of the 106
and the 20th of Docoz-bor. ho Colloring affidavits are to refute
this statement, 86, 37, 83 ond 10, t vin1 aci t -- to
pay special attention to Affidavit 87. These affidavits
that the higher ss and Police Lan”ors ri thin the Reich -
authority over the Ornungapolzoi or the securi 7 police.
The presentation of :)r. Jest’s documont ' 3 1352 di "
not correspond to the facts an” is a vish?ul drcnm,
"roup 3 nfidovite taken together containing nffid
vhsch are to refute the assertion of tho Prosecution that th
res orcinod in fovor of the doctrine of tho master --co and
racial hatred and that spiritually and physically it 1cc -o
pare: for var. Refer to the ic1 f^ief, -oc, 5 . .
of the 19 th and 20th of Doccno~,
-lenVits 57, “ - °, GO and 33 ■ prove that a
not trained for racial hatred n: Certainly not for racial
extermination; also that the 33 do s not train for var cit
mentally or physically.
he affidavits in r-r rap 1 deal
Thc the h’af fen-33 wac on integral -0
found in the transcript of the 19th and
Vith 'sho follotin- c"o-ec .. —- O' „
of the holo "S, ' . 1 -
20th of Docombor, 1945 ,
15911
H0209 -00742c AUC-*-. TTZGERALD-]-21-2
-urthorr ro, that sozvioo in tho offon~ss, rith a Tc
exceptions, 00 boon voluntary at the end of the war, in tho third
place, the affon-SS had fought in an illegal and inhmeno manner
on the basis of its troining. .ficczit ‘34 proves that the -inffon
SS as a unit had no concept of inlop’s idea, and above all that
the acfen-3S heard nothing at all iron the other sectors of
-irmtoz’s povor and that they wore not lead by Hi-loz in a
military sense, only in rogcm *o orsonnol questions, clothinn
a in 1 c q u i p:: ont.
flic next four cffjcnvits will be taken toycthor, 3G, 2
39 ond.40. It has been prove . that a oonsidorn 10 -opt of the
Taon-3 and also special g.nos such as the ‘ustos Nor-o. Tr-
taction and th... S3-lotor Vohacle aquca, front Aid of the Cozen
Post Ofico voro taken into th s3 on a copulsor basis.
The folloving affidavits, Tunbars 1, 31, 32, 35, sa nn
81 prove the follozing : Tho Waffen-SS was repeatedly instructed
about observing the rules af ty. gho rules of war wore Pont and
volations worc severely puniclen ,
Affidavits 82 and 85 eel ith the SS-Tolico Toginon
like the Cocunonts quoted previously. Thoy prove that those ns
police zocizonts voro puro rocinents of the rccul-, - lico .it
out connection with the ss. The police divisions, to bo distin-
guishod. fronthe regiments, up to April, 10/2, moro not at all
under choss. Only after tint were 6ho; forcibly ordered into t ' ar f on-ss .
The Duorlovmnger has boon montionc: repeat . Affidavit
35 deals with it. This affidavit says, Nqhis brimdo waa not en
S3 unit, but a unit sot up directly, on Himlors orcoxs or
persons v/ho had had prison sentence before.
Tlao next group, affidavits 3 and 4, provo thnt assertion
0 uno ■ rosocution that tho Ss had participated in15912
2 0 -UC~/.--TZGTRALD-H-21-3 H0209 -0075
the — on -uno 30, 1934, is nlso. Tho goncrol ss in rnnkfurt
one Berlin, for ozmnplo, vao only allotted. . Mo arzcsts or
chootin_ took place.
- -J S0J in this connection extensive rntoricl from all
s ornan is civen by affidavit 70. It is a ci o ss-acct ion of tho
Cn P, a , holo int orrnont cmp. __ digest is riven.
The n-xt croup deals vith another point of ho indict-
i lent, participation of the ss in the Govish progro as of tho 9th
of -ovodo", 1938. Thoso oro affidavits 7, 3, 8, 9, 104 and 105.
Tho provo that the S3 in uorndorg, Offenburg, Tuburc, Berlin
end in ' 1 did not participate in Procrons, but on the 10th of
Tovonboz ve3 orployod for protection.
Of special importance as to the question of mothor an
order from above vn3 given to tin ss to porticipato in those
rogrons, I consider this affidavit number 5* it is by a certain
3cdn-looior• I have just joard it is available in nglish. I
ou.LC bo grateful if the Tribunal would por-it ,o to read it
15943
ID0for0 tho Cormssoners?
H0209 —0076
it oon ligostoc in ho trenscript
•no TELC-IT: It is digostod in tho transcript, your
—orCshi] . - do not went to ron.d the whole ocuent but nay l
rocC on-J part cf it once moro, scrothinc which is ospociclly
mportunt.
"-bout 3 c.m. on lovorbor 10 (this is Schcllorneir speal-
-nC) tho cichsfuol ror Cict tod tc no in my ror a. declorction
running as follows: '
went on 9 lovorbor to tho “uohror and towords 11:30
P.m, tho Gruppenguolror Wolff c me to no and informed no about
tho orders issued by tho Gau Eropncona Office in Munich. (I
omghcsize Gc.u Propc.condo °ffco.) I asked th o "uohror what orders
ho had to cive no. Tho • uohror replied that the SS lad to keep
out of this action. Tho State Police were to provide safety for
-owsh property and see that tho Jews thonsolvos were protected,
-ho General SS, who roncinod in barracks, wore only to bo helpers
on protocivo mocsuros if c"sc lutely necessary. I passed on this
cormand of tho Tuohror to Crup. onf uohror Hoyrich for the State
clicc ocqucrtors and to the Oborcbschnittsuolrors for the
Gonornl SS ct once. -hon I asked the uohror I 1 ca the inpression
thct ho knov nothinc a out vhat was happoning. The order come
from the —cich Pre pa ; nda headquarters and x prosune that Goo^eis
he.- started this action in his lust for power which had struck
no for sone while past ond in his ompty-hecdodness, just when the
f reicn political situation was at its worse. vi
hay - correct myself. f I said this was Schallormeier
that was a mis take. This quotation was dictated by Eimmler:
Hirmlor die a tod those paragraphs. ,
hnd now the author of the affidavit gocs on:
-C-C- UO type this CiCc.tion personally, i
/t states that the statement of Lirmmlor was locked up
in the safe.
- very Good view of the participation or non-participatio
15944
2° --UG A LJG IrP 22-2, ' H0209 -0077
of — ° Go in thoso ovonts of 9 Hovombor is givon to tho Tribuncl
3 .ficvit numor 70, c. Giro st from c. comp.
21o next group includes tho folloving cff iduvits; 14, 15, 16,
it, 2°, 21, 23, 25. it doe.ls with circunstencos in tho concontra-
tion ccnps, Thoso cffidcvits aro to prove thnt troctnont in 'tho
concontrstion cenps, which those witnesses doscribod only in
conorc1, were sctisfactory, Histroctnont of prisoners we.s
severely pun i shod.
-horo c.ro numnorous oxcnplos on this subject in the cffidcvit
nuor 7°, which I have nontionod in the Cicost of meny affidcvite in the collective affidavit 119, 122.
-s to tho question of the cuthori ty in tho concentration
ccups < nd tho rolo vi ich this played within the ss orgenizction,
the affidavit 99 and 100 are inportant. Thoy prove t’ at the
income of concentration conps from tho labor of prisoners was
not turned over to the SS, in particular not to the U0ffon SS
’ nt this income was entered on the bud pot of the German Reich.
Thc noxt croup includes cff idavits rogording oxporiront s
on livnc human oings. I consider thorn valuable only a.s to the
question as to vhct the SS men know of those experiments.
-ffidevit 17 is to prove that in Dachcu they wore volunteers
for froozing experiments after they Imad boon givon c physical
examination on. special feed.
-ffidevit 1°7 also deals with those experiments.
ho following roup of affidavits, 18, 22, 27, and 28 deal
with the question of secrecy rogording crimes, especially crimes
in concentration camps and to refute the assertion of the Prosecu
tion on p.po 3419 en. 3420 of tho German transcript, that the
vho-o Gormen popuction lmnov of the trocities in concentration
conps -hat woulc inclullo tho SS non outside cc ncontration
comps.
“0so four affidavits prove that f all persons who.came in
contact in any way with concentration comps statements of secrecy
voro donondod; f ur Ul ormoro t: at the cuards of the concontrat ion
comps Cil not hovo my insicht into the cctucl protoctivo custody
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20 August-A-MB-23-1 3lakley-0079
-he Chief of the SS Personnel Main Office inquired whether rumors
ab ut the murder f Jews vrere true. The offices menti ned answered that these
runers were untrue. They were enemy propaganda,
THE RESIDENT: We shall break off now, D-ctor, please. Will y u be
much 1 nger in y ur summaries of these affidavits ?
DI IELCRTANN: .No, Y ur Lords' Lp, these affidavits will n t take much
l n.or; but a resume of the mass affidavits which I must give so that the
Tribunal vill kn w vthat these mass affidavits deal with, that vill take a
little l nger.
(The Tribunal adjcurned until 21 August 1916, at 1000 h urs.)
15947