HEA RINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON WA Y S AND MEANS OF THE

HOU SE OF REPRESENTATIVES

6ls'r CONGRESS, an SESSION

H R . 32216

FEBRUARY 2, 4, 6, 7, 83 AND 9, 1-911

WA SHINGTON

H-OUJSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

J OHN D A LZELL, J OHN'

W . D W IGHT ,

WILLIAM R , ELLIS ,CPI-AMECLARK.

HENRY s. B OU TELL, OSCAR W. U ND ERWOOD ,

ROBERT F.

‘

B-R'

O U SSA RD ,

FR A NC IS BU RT ON HA RR ISONNICHOL A S L ONGWO RTH,

RECIPROCITY WITH CANADA .

COMM ITTEE O N WA YS A ND MEA NS,

HO U SE O F REPRESENTA TIVES,

Washmgton ,D . a

,Thursday, February 2 , 19 1 1 .

The committee me t a t o’clock a . m.

,Hon . Serene E. P ayne

(chairman) presiding .

flPresent : Th e chairman and Me ssrs . D a lze ll,McCall

,Hill

,Boute ll

,

Needham, Calderhead , Fordne Ga ines, Longworth , Dwight , Ellis,

Clark , U nderwood , Pou , Randefi, Broussard ,Harrison

,and Brantley .

fi The commi ttee thereupon pro ceeded to the consideration of theb ill (H. R . 322 16 ) t o promo te recipro ca l trade re lations wi th theDominion of Canada

,and for o ther purposes .

The CHA IRMA N . The commi ttee will b e in order. The hearing thi smorning is on the McCall bill , th e purpose ofwhich is to carry out andperfect the agreement made by the Exe cutive wi th Canada . Is there

gentleman here wh o desires t o b e he ard ?

STATEMENT OF HON . A U GU STU S P . GARD NER , A REPRESENTATIVE FROM MA SSA CHU SETTS .

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Chairman,I want to make a very short sta te

ment , and then I would like to present these witnesses,who are

business men and mastermariners and practica l fishermen . Iwouldlike to ask them questions myse lf

,I can in tha t way save a grea t dea l

of time . Then I would like to turn them over to you t o cross—examinethem. They do no t want to make spee ches . It takes up time . For

that reason I would like to ask them a number of questi ons,myse lf

,

and then turn them over for cross—examina tion . If you haveauthority to admin ister o a ths I would ask tha t they b e put under o a th .

Th e CHA IRMA N . We have no authority to administer o a ths .

Mr. GA RD NER J Mr. Cha irman and gentlemen of th e committee ,there are here from Gloucester men wh o represent every shade ofo inion on this treaty . In th e fi rst p lace , there are the men wh o catcht e fi sh

, and they wi thout exception are in favor of pro tection on

both th e raw materia l and th e fi ni shed product . This treaty takesthe duty off of bo th th e raw fi sh and th e manufactured fi sh . On theo ther hand

,there are a number of gentlemen here who do no t fi sh

themse lves,but who manufa cture fi sh . They wish to reta in th e duty

on th e finished product,but are not in favor of th e duty on th e raw

fi sh . Of tha t number one gentleman , Col. Charles F . Wonson ,i s, as

I judge from his te legram t o Mr. McCall and to me,in favorof free fi sh

from first t o last . So far as I know ,j udging by th e tremendous

shower of telegrams tha t I have received , Col. Wonson Is no t largely11 held in that view by th e p eople who are engaged in the manufactureof)

fi sh but a t th e same time h e is a man of abi li ty , and I think In

fairness h e ought t o b e heard after I have put on my Wi tnesses .

Now,j ust a short sta tement . I want to put

.

on th e mayor of

Gloucester,simply to presen t a pe tition . He W i ll make no sta te

ment . If you choose , he can read th e pe ti ti on whi ch was passed3

4 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

by the mayor and municipa l counc il , and which is signed unan i

mously by the municipa l council . He will on ly take up ft minute

of your time . Then I wish to put on th e. residen t of th e b oardt

of

trade ofGlo uc e s t e r,w ho is h e re—Mr. Carro 1. Mr. Carro ll i s famlllar

with th e fi sh business from beginning to end . Th e fi rm w lllch h e

represents (no t a s th e presiden t of th e board of trade , . b u t as an

individua l—the Gorton—Pew wh ich manufac t ure s the Gortoncodfi sh no bones ”

-

you h ave probably se en th e adverti sement ) ,is engaged bo th in fi shing and in packing fi sh . It owns ves

se ls .

Tha t fi rm is wha t some of you gen tlemen wo uld ca ll a“

trus t . Itconsists Of wha t were formerly fi ve independent concerns in Glou

cester, which were all bought up by one concern a number of yearsago ; and in the entire period of the ir existe nce in the ir be st ye ar theyhave never earned over 4 p er cen t . I blush for ha ving such a

“ trustin my distric t , Mr. Cha irman . [L augli ter. ]Of the o ther gen tlemen

,two are ma ster mariners bo th of whom

own the ir own vesse ls,one re resenting the cod - fi shing industry and

the o ther th e mackere l and i erring fishing industry . A s a generalrule

,men wh o go mackere ling in th e summer eke it out by go ing for

herring up to the middle of J anuary,and after tha t

,in d i sposing of

their ca tch,we might say th e middle of February will b e rea ched

before the finishing up of everything connected wi th the herringseason .

Invariably th e crews who go on cod - fi sh ing trips are employed on

shares of the ca tch . The same is true with regard to mackere l . A t

all events,tha t is true in the sa iling fleets . In herrin fi sh

'

thecrews that take the vessels from Gloucester down to N

gewfoun land

are on wages . I expect t o Show you by the Government expertthat is

,the lo cal agent and statistician of the U nited Sta tes Fish

Commission—the figures tha t you want to know a s to the scope . Ishould prefer t o have you ca ll h im rather than to call h im myself.

He is here t o give you tho se figures . He would no t take a partisanview of the question . Y ou can deve lop the facts , but I thought itwould b e more satisfactory to you if you had the Government experthere .

Mr. MOCA LL .

‘What is his name ?

Mr. GA RD NER . His name is A rthur L . Millett . He represented theU nited States as one of our experts a t The Hague Conference lastsummer. He is the agent for the Bureau of Fisheries in Gloucester.

Mr. BO U TELL . I would like to a sk y ou one question before you callany w itnesses , so tha t we may know a t the outset j ust wha t we are tomeet in th e ev idence . In this recipro ca l arrang ement are you opposedto any other item except the item of fi sh ?Mr. GA RD NER . I personally ? I am oppo sed t o th e who le treaty .

Mr. BO U TELL . Y ou are oppo sed to th e who le treaty ?Mr. GA RD NER . Y es

,sir.

Mr. BO U TELL . Will these witnesses that you ca ll be fore us opposeMI

NIo ther item except the item of fi sh ?r. GA RD NER . No t to my knowled e , except in so far as they will

have to po int out certain things in or er to expla in the scope . Thatis

,for instance , th e glue industry and the cordage and twine industry

and the sa ilmaking industry . All those things are closel alliediPractically sneaking . th e men here are interested in cod—p acli

'

ing and

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 5

the ship ing of cod, haddo ck , hake , and o ther fi sh of th e cod family ;

andmac {erel and herring . Incidentally some of them probably catchsword fi sh and halibut .

Mr. BO U TELL . Wh a t I wanted to know was whe ther you were

advo cating an amendment of one provision of th e treaty ?Mr. GA RD NER . I presume that is what these gentlemen are advo

cating , an amendment Of one provision of th e tre a ty . But y ou askedme how I stood on th e tre aty

, and I say I am aga inst the tre aty .

The CHA IRM A N . Is no t an amendment t o this agreement equiva

lent t o th e defea t of it ? What is th e difference be tween the two ?Mr. GA RD NER . I am no t capable of discussing th e constitutional

question with you ,nor t he mechanical question of this th ing . I

really am no t prepared to do it .

The CHA IRM A N . I just wanted y our off—hand opinion . That is all.

Mr. GA RD NER . I prefer no t to give my o ffhand opinion until Ihave made a study of th e matter.

Mr. HILL . I w as 0111 0 to ask a similar uest ion t o the questionasked by Mr. Boute l . IIad the mayor and1 th e common council ofthe city of Gloucester at t he time they passed th e reso lution whi chI understand y ou t o say they passed , Op o sing th e fi sh proposition ,

given any c onsideration t o th e trea ty ? Had they read and did theyunderstand the genera l terms of th e who le treaty

,and in passing

that reso lution did they express th e ir antagonism to the propo sitionas a who le ?Mr. GA R D NER . I would answer tha t question by asking y ou whe ther

y ou think th e reso lu tions favorable to th e trea ty have been adoptedby those wh o re ad th e tre a ty from one end to the o ther ?Mr. HILL . I simply w anted to know th e aspect in which they

a ear.pr. GA RD NER . In my Opinion they have no t one of them re ad the

trea ty and th e schedules from end to end .

Mr. CLA RK . If this fi sh proposition were out of the trea ty,would

y ou b e for it ?Mr. GA RD NER . No ,

sir ; I would b e aga inst the trea ty .

Mr. CLA RK . Wh y ?Mr. GA RD NER . Be cause I am opposed to re cipro city in compe titive

articles .

Mr. CLA RK . Le t me ask you one o ther question . Y ou say this fi shtrustMr. GA RD NER . I did no t say tha t . I said wha t y ou would call a

trust .

Mr. CLA RK . Wha t I want to ask,then

,is this : Y ou sa id it never

paid over 4 p er cent dividend , as I understood it .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y e s , sir.

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou do no t know h ow much wa ter there w as.

in the

s tock origina lly ?Mr. GA RD NER . NO

,sir.

Mr. CLA RK . Tha t is all.

Mr. GA RD NER . But I can te ll y ou tha t they have never pa id a sal

ary of over a year,if tha t is an indica tion .

Now,in addition ,

I am go ing{t o present a gentleman who was

formerly president of th e Fish S inners’

U nion . There 18 no longera fi sh skinners’ union in Gloucester. This g entleman is now a prac

tical fisherman .

6 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Would th e committee first like to hear th e Government expert as

t o th e scope of this business ?Mr. FORD NEY . I would b e g lad t o he ar h im.

Mr. GA INES . I think so , Mr. Gardner.

Th e CHA IRMA N . Is h e here ?Mr. GA RD NER . He is here . He is Mr. A rthur L . Mi llett .

STA TEMENT OF MR. ARTHU R L . MILLETT.

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Millett,w ill you please g ive your full name ?

Mr. MILLETT . A rthur L . Millett .

Mr. GA RD N ER . Mr. Millett was one of our experts at.

Th e Haguetribunal , and is probably as familiar w ith th e quest i on Of thesefisheries as any man a live . Mr. Millett

,will y ou please tell th e com

mit t ee th e Scop e of this industry ?Mr. MILLETT . A s far as Gloucester is concerned , or all of i t ?

Mr . GA RD NER . Would y ou gentlemen like t o have th e informationconcerning th e fi sh industry only as far as Glouce ster is concerned

,

or altoge ther ?Mr. MCCA LL . A ltoge ther, I think .

The CHA IRM A N . Y es .

Mr. MILLETT . Spe aking of Glouce ster first, the to tal number of

fishing vesse ls in Gloucester Of o ver 5 tons register—and those are the

only one s recognized by th e customhouse—is 261 . Tha t is accord

ing to th e officia l report of the co lle ctor of customs on the 3 lst ofDe cember, 1 9 10. Those vesse ls have. a tonnage of tons .

Estima ting as carefully as may b e th e va lue of those fi shing vessels ,it would b e about Tha t is

,of course

,fitted and ready for

sea—re ady for ca tching the fi sh .

Mr. MCCA LL . A bout $ 10 a t on,on the average ?

Mr. MILLETT . NO,sir ; about $ 100 a t on .

Mr. MCCA LL . Y es ; that is right a t on . I made a mistakein the de cima l .Mr. MILLETT . On sa iling vesse ls , as to the number of fishermen in

Glouce ster,where they are constantly shiftin abo ut from one port

to ano ther,we have no sta tistics . The city as no figures and the

Go vernment h as none . A s ne arly as we can figure , there are

men engaged in the vo cation of fishermen in the port of Gloucester.

A ccording to one of th e re cent reports of the Bureau of Fisheries ,for 1 908

,I think—the last one we have h ad—~th e to ta l number Of

persons employed in th e fisheries of the U nited S t a t es tha t y e ar wasand th e va lue of th e produc t in tha t vear was

Mr. MCCA LL . Th a t was in 1 908 ?

Mr. MILLETT . 1908 ,s ir. In answe r t o your que s tion about th e

$ 100 a ton,we fi gure th e sa iling ve sse ls a t abo ut $ 100 a t en and th e

gaso line auxiliary vesse ls a t about $ 1 7 5 a t o n va lue . I wo uld like tospe ak in regard t o th e fle e ts Of o ther ports in New England ,

to correcta wrong impression th a t Glouc e s te r is th e o nly lace having anyvessels . Bo ston h a s a flee t of 1 1 5 fish ing ve sse ls .

PProvince town has

a flee t of 7 5 fishing ve sse ls . Port land h a s a flee t Of 65 fi sh in v e sselsa l though tho se are mostly sma ll Ve sse ls . D uxbury has a e e t of 8

,

RECIPROCITY W ITH CAN AD A . 7

fi shing vessels . Buck ort has a flee t of 6 fi shing vesse ls . Orrs Islandhas 1 fishing vessel ; lymouth has 1 . Kennebunk has a flee t of 12fishing vesse ls . Sa lem h as a flee t of 6 fishing vessels . Marbleheadhas a flee t Of 12 fishing vesse ls ; Portsmouth h as 5 ; Rock ort

,Me .

,

has 8 ; Boo thbayHarbor has 1 2 Southwest Harbor has a ee t of 37 ;Eastport has 4 ; Newport , R . I.

,has a flee t of 4 8 fishing vessels ; and

Providence , R . I.

,has a flee t of 15 fishing vesse ls .

There are o ther ports of which I do no t know the rea l numberorts like Cha tham,

and all a long on the back side of Cape Cod—tha tfiave a large flee t of sma ll boa ts . There are many a long the Ma inecoast of which we have no late re cord

,because most of them are under

5 tons .

Mr. DA LZELL . Is the fishing industry confi ned to New England ?Mr. MILLETT . No

,sir ; it is no t confined to any particular coast.

Y ou wi ll fi nd it on th e Gulf , on th e west coast , th e east coast,and all

along . There are different branches of it . New England has pract ically th e cod and mackerel fishery and fi sh of that sort . A s y ou g ofarther south , there is a difference . On the P acific coast they catchsalmon and halibut

,and a lso sa lt cod to some extent

,but th e latter

is no t as large an industry as ours .

Mr. MCCA LL . There are great fisheries on th e lakes,are there not ?

Mr. MILLETT . Y es,sir; th e lake fisheries are very large indeed

far lar er than one h as any idea .

SMr. A LZELL . Have you th e figures there for th e entire U ni tedtates ?Mr . MILLETT . Y es , sir; I have th e figures for 1 908

, the last wehave . Th e total number of persons employed in the fisheries of the

U ni ted States in 1 908 was and th e value of th e product was

Mr. CLA RK . Is tha t for th e who le U nited States,or just New

England ?Mr. M IL LETT . That is for th e who le U ni ted States . I can give you

th e figures for New England if y ou wish it . NO ; I can no t . I can

give y ou the figures for Massachusetts , Maine,Connecticut , and

Rhode Island , whi ch would practically b e New England . I have th efigures for those States for 1908 , which is as late as I have been ableto et .

fi r. MCCA LL . On the question of sta tistics in connection w ith fi sh

eries , how far back can. you get th e statistics in regard to th e productof ourfisheries ?Mr. MILLETT . I have them in my po cke t from 1 8 9 9 . I have kept

the figures myse lf, taken from th e books of th e concerns . I have t odo tha t for the Bureau of Fisheries .

Mr. MCCA LL . Have we no t ava ilable sta tistics which Show the

growth of th e industry ? Have we no t statistics which show wha t itwas

, for instance , 100 ye ars ago ; how many men were employed at

that t ime , and so forth ?Mr. MILLETT . I sup ose Lorenzo Sabine ’

s report would give thatinformation . It is aHouse document . I have forgo tten the nameof it . It was published in

8 REC IPROCITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Mr. MCCA LL . Just re fer me to some authorities tha t W111 gi ve

statistics in regard to the fishing industry .

Mr. MILLETT . I think,wi thout any trouble a t all, Mr. McCall, the

Bure au of Fisheries here would b e able t o give y ou everything that

there is on the subject , on demand .

Mr. MCCA LL . I would b e very much obliged if you would indlca te

the books or do cuments tha t we should ask for.

Mr. MILLETT . A sk for the report of the Commissioner of Fisheri esfor e ach year.

Mr. GA RD NER . If y ou were to ta lk to D r. Smi th y ou could probablyb e able to indica te wha t reports would give the informati on these

gentlemen seek . They want historica l figures , t o Show the growth or

the diminution of the industry over a period o f time .

Mr. MCCA LL . I understand tha t the fishing industry in Gloucesterstarted in 1623 .

Mr. MILLETT . Y es,sir.

Mr. MCCA LL . Mr. Gardner corre cted tha t by saying 1624 . [Laughter.] That h as been continuous from tha t time ?Mr. MILLETT . As far as we know . There are only two years that

we can no t a ccount for, in a very e arly part of it .

Mr. MCCA LL . Wh at I wanted was t o et the history of it .

Mr. MILLETT . I w ill talk with D r. Smitfi , and I Will leave a no te of it .Mr. GA RD NER . He is the Deputy U nited States Fish Commissioner.

Mr. M IL LETT . He is th e Deputy U nited States Fish Commissioner.

I believe I was answering your question about the Massachusetts fleet,

was I not ?Mr. LONGWORTH . Is this the number for Massachusetts , or for

New England ?Mr. MILLETT . The number of fishermen employed in Massachusetts

in 1908 was and the value of the pro duct wasThat is the raw product

,of course .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Then Massachuse tts constitutes some thing over10 per cent of the ent ire amount ?Mr. MILLETT . Y es

,sir. Maine employed and the value of

the ir product was about Connecticut hadmen em loyed , and the va lue of the ir product was

Mr. HILL . would like to ask you a uest ion right there . A re thesame character of fisheries contemplate in the statistics in regard to

ect icut that are considered in regard to Massachusetts ? A rethey no t entirely different ?Mr. MILLETT . Y es

,sir; entirely different .

Mr. HILL . What is the character of the fi shing in Connecticut ?Mr. M ILLETT . I suppose th e porgy fi sh erv would come in very

extensively there .

Mr. HILL . A nd tha t in no way should b e classified as a competit i

ygindustry . Is no t tha t correc t ? Th e y fi sh there for fi sh to get

01

Mr. MILLETT . O il and fert ilizer,sir.

Mr . HILL . And lobsters,e tc . ?

Mr. MILLETT . Y es .

Mr. GA INES . D o th e y have lo b s t ers in Connec t icut ? [L aughter.]Mr. MILLETT . They have lo b s te rs in Ma ine . Th e lobster industry

in Ma ine is very large .

RECIPROC ITY WITH CA N A D A . 9

Mr. HILL . D O th e sta tis t ics , so far as Connecticut is concerned,

relate to an industry Simi lar in charac t er t o that maintained a tGloucester ?Mr. MILLETT . I should think no t

,sir ; but I g ave those because

he asked for th e New England figures . Tha t is afl. Tha t comple tesNew England . I mi ght g ive you th e figures for New York . NewY

_

ork h as men, and th e va lue of th e product is

lie. (A t this o int Mr. Millett exhibited to Mr. McCall a paper con

taininO‘ th e gures above stated b y h im. )MISHHCCA LL . I would suggest tha t these figures b e given to the

stenographer and b e printed . They are very valuable for reference .

(Th e fi gures above re ferred t o are a s follows

GLO U CESTER FISH RECEIPTS.

Salt codFresh codHali b utHaddockHakeCuskPollockFlitched h alib utFresh mackerelSaltmackerelFresh herringSalt h erringFrozen h erringSword fi shCured fi shFrozen squidPorgies 136, 000Fresh fi sh from small b oats . 5 000 000 3 500 000 1 750 000Miscellaneous fresh fi sh fromBoston

Tota l at GloucesterBy Gloucestervessels at oth erp orts

Grand total

PollockFlitched halib utFresh mackerel .

Saltmackerel .

Fresh h erringSalt h erringFrozen h erringSword fi shCured fi shPorgiesFresh fi sh from small b oatsMiscellaneous fresh fi sh from Boston i

Total at Gloucester. .

By Gloucestervessels at oth erp ortsGrand tota l i14 8 , 979 , 859

1°ou4u18 .

2 7 4 1 700

I’ouduis.

000

2 , 015 , 200

100 000

10 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

To tal ca tches, Gloucester, J anuary 1 to D ecember 31 .

Fresh fi sh from small b oatsMiscellaneous

Total 106 109 8 9 8 60

Cured fi sh

RECA P ITU LA TION .

Grand total at Gloucester pounds .

l 96 722 587Total b Gloucestervessels at oth er p orts d irec t (estimated ) I

p oun s

1 Includes p ickled h erring.

Mr. DA LZELL . Have you th e figures for th e P acific coast fishingindustryMr. MILLETT . I have no t ; no , sir.

Mr. DA LZELL . An d A laska ?Mr. MILLETT . No

,sir; I have no t .

Mr. D A LZELL . Where would we get those ?Mr. MILLETT . A t th e Bureau of Fisheries . Y ou can get them very

easily on demand .

Mr. DA LZELL . Have you any idea wha t proportion of the who le theP acific co ast fisheries represent ?Mr. MILLETT . I should judge , speaking of salmon

,it would b e very

large . If you take th e sa lmon In to account and th e ha libut,it would

b e1Quit

e large , es ecially in va lue .

r. D A LZELL . 0 you include th e A laska industry in tha t ?Mr. MILLETT . Y es

,sir; tha t would b e included ,

I am quite sure .

Th e CHA IRMA N . A s I reco llect , th e advo ca tes of a duty on fi sh havebeen chiefly from Massa chuse tts and Ma ine . I do no t suppo se youhave an knowledge about tha t ?Mr. ILLETT . On ] lo ca lly and persona lly

,sir. Tha t is all.

Th e CHA IRMA N . our tables show th e amount of th e fishing industry in Gloucester and Massachusetts . I suppose Gloucester coversMassachusetts pre t t we ll in th e fishing industry ; but your statisticsshow th e fishing in ustry in Massachusetts in compari son with th e

RECIPROC ITY W ITH CAN AD A . 1 1

who le country , do they not ? I withdraw that about Gloucester,

Mr. Gardn er.

Mr. GA RD NER . I was o ing t o say tha t I have a telegram from th eProy lncetown Bo ard 0 Trade

,conta ining a unanimous protest

agamst this treaty . A s Provincetown is no t represented in CongressI feel that there could b e no objection

, at all events, t o my representing the po sition of the ir board of trade .

Mr. MILLETT . I w ill try to answer any questions that may b easked . That is about all, I th ink , that I have to say .

Th e CHA IRMA N . A re there any further questions ?Mr. GA RD NER . I should suggest , gentlemen

,that Mr. Millett h as

a general knowledge of this who le question,and I think th e members

‘

of th e committee could get a grea t deal of informa tion from him.

Mr. NEED HA M . Have y ou any statistics showing whether thefi shermen are native - born Americans or fore ign- born citizens ?Mr. MILLETT . Th e grea t ma j ority

,sir

, of th e fishermen of Gloucester

,in my opinion ,

are foreign born . A pplying that to all New England , I can no t answer your question .

Mr. HILL . A re they citizens of th e U nited States ? Y ou have no

statistics concerning that ?Mr. MILLETT . No , sir; I have no thing .

Mr. GA RD NER . I w ill put on a witness to cover that matter.

Mr. HILL . Can you give us th e information a t your convenienceas t o the cod

,mackere l

,and herring fisheries

,representatives of

whi ch can appe ar ? What I want t o do is t o see if we can no t separate it from th e o ther classes of th e fi shing industry and let themspeak for themse lves .

Mr. MILLETT . Y ou mean with reference to other places in th ebusinessMr. HILL . Y es .

Mr. MILLETT . That is some thing tha t I would no t have,because

I only ga ther the Gloucester figures . Boston h as a local agent tha tgathers th e fi g ures for that port , and th e statistics at th e other portsare only gathered about once every four years . Th e figures a t Boston and Gloucester are ga thered every week , being th e principallaces .pMr. HILL . There is one o ther question I would like to ask. I ask

it be cause I h ap ened to read an article in th e aper during the week .

Is th e herring in ustry an industry ofAmerican abor,oris the product

large ly bought and brought in and so ld ? Is th e fishing Itse lf , theactua l fishing , being done by o thers in Newfoundland and Canada ?Mr. MILLETT . Th e Newfoundland herring fi s hery is prose cuted by

American vesse ls wi th American crews ,“wi th th e assistance of men

and bo a ts that are hired for th e purpose .

”This latter part i s the

form of th e Government o ath .

Mr. HILL . Th e statement made by th e board of appraisers thisweek

,in making the ir de cision,

then,is no t exactly correct , IS It ?

Mr. MILLETT . I should no t care t o pass any opinion on th e opinionof the b o ard

,of appraisers .

Mr. HILL . Y ou saw tha t decision ?Mr. MILLETT . I did ; yes , sir.

Mr. FORD NEY . I take it for ranted tha t you do no t_

th 1nk i t wouldb e wise t o ut this treaty into aw , and leave this part In It that refersto fi sh ,

andput fi sh on the free list ?

1 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. MILLETT . A re you asking me as an individual , or as a repre

sent at ive of th e Bureau of Fisheries ?Mr. FORD NEY. I am asking you as a citizen of th e U ni ted States ;

pro tected by the tariff law .

Mr. MILLETT . In answer t o that , I will sav th at I be li eve in the

theory of pro tection .

Mr. FORD NEY . I agree with you .

Mr. LONGWORTH. Can you give us in round numb erso

th e rela t lve

p er cent of the fi sh industry on th e A tlantic Co as t , in th e L ake

district,and on the P acific co ast ?

Mr. MILLETT . I can no t,be cause I did no t come provided W lth

those figures ; but tha t can b e very easily se cured .

Mr. GA RD NER . W ill th e committee a llow me t o ask a leading question such as h as just been asked ?Th e CHA IRM A N . Y es .

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Mille tt,in your Opinion , could the Gloucester

fishing industry survive if th e trea ty was passed ?Mr. MILLETT . D o you mean survive as it is a t resent ?Mr. GA RD NER . I me an survive as a profi t a le occupa ti on for

fishermen ? Could these gentlemen,these master manners , and so

on,here

, ge t a live lihood a t th e port ofGloucester ?Mr. MILLETT . No t a t th e port of Gloucester, in the present mag

nitude of the business , in my opinion . I be lieve they would have to

go e lsewhere to do th e business , if tha t is wha t you mean .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . Is th e business on its last legs a t th e port of

Gloucester ?Mr. MILLETT . We do no t think so . From the number of men

em loyed there,and the increase in savings- bank deposits , and so on

,

it o es no t look tha t way .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Y ou think tha t it w ill b e on its last legs if w e putthis into law ?Mr. MILLETT . Y es , sir ; tha t is my persona l opinion .

Mr. RA ND ELL . How do you think the enactment of the trea ty intolaw would affe ct the question o f pro viding food for the po orer peoplein that part of th e country ? Would it b e beneficia l or hurtful in tha t

case

Mr. MILLETT . I su o se I could expla in it,but it might take me

longer than you woulpdpwant to listen .

Mr. RA ND ELL . I want to know how it would a ffect th e poorerp efi

i le .

r.M ILLETT . Sa lt- fi sh duty is only three quarters of a cent a pound .

Th e average fami ly in the U nited Sta tes p ro b a b lv do es no t use overa ound or a pound and a ha lf of sa lt fi sh a week .

r. RA ND ELL . Y ou think th e consumer of fi sh,then

,is no t inter

e st ed in th e treaty ?Mr. MILLETT . I do no t think so , so far as tha t part is concerned .

O ther arts I do no t fe el compe tent to speak about .

Mr. ILL . Have you sta tisti cs show ing th e prices of fi s h at th e porto fGloucester for a number of years back ?Mr. MILLETT . Every bit of fi sh

,the product of the American

fi sheries,is reported to the bureau once a week . They report the

number of pounds e ach week and th e va lue of each kind of fi sh .

Then they make out monthly and a lso ye a ] ly sta tements .

Mr. HILL . Is tha t ava ilable ?

RECIPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 1 3

Mr. MILLETT . Y es , sir; th e bureau has an abundant fund of informati on .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Is the Gloucester fleet as large to - day as it was10years ago ?Mr. MILLETT . I should say it h as de creased a little in numbers ,

perhaps . I do not think it h as decreased in tonnage . If it hasdecreased in tonnage , it would b e a very slight decrease ; but there arefewer vesse ls than there were 10 years ago , in my opinion

, sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . I wi ll now call Capt . P eoples .

STATEMENT OF CA PT. GEORGE H. PEOPLES.

Mr. GA RD NER . Gentlemen , this is Cap t . George H. Peoples , president of th e GloucesterMaster Marine rs ’

A sso cia tion . Wha t kind offishing are you engaged in,

Capt . P eoples ?Capt . PEOP LES . I am engaged in mackere l and swordfi shing in

summer and in herring fishing in winter.

Mr. GA RD NER . D o you own your own vesse l ?Capt . PEO P LES . Y es

,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Does it represen t th e savings of a few years or thesavings of a life time ?Capt . PEOPLES . Th e savings Of 26 years .

Mr. GA RD NER . Does your crew sa il on shares ?Capt . PEOP LES . Y es , sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . How many have you go t in your crew ?Capt . PEOP LES . Ten .

Mr. GA RD NER . How many of them are American citizens ?Capt . PEOPLES . Eight .

Mr. GA RD NER . How many children have they ?Capt . PEOPLES . Tha t is a ques tion tha t I am no t j ust prepared to

answer [lau h t er] , but , j udging from th e families of fi shermen ingenera l, I shou d say that th e represen t a t least three or four each .

h

Mr. (g

A RD NER . Wh at willyou do with yourvessel if this treaty goest rou

Capgt PEOPLES . We ll , there is only one th ing , to my mind , and tha t

would b e to dispose of h er.

Mr. GA RD NER . Where would you dispose of her ?

Capt . PEOPLES . That is a question tha t I can not answer. I mightsell her in the provinces or I might se ll h er somewh ere e lse .

Mr. GA RD NER . What will you do yourself ?Capt . PEO PLES . Imyse lf would go to Nova Sco ti a . In fact , I have

had an O ffer already from partie s in Nova Sco tia to sail a vesse l fromone of the ir ports .

Mr. GA RD NER . Wh at will your crew do ?Capt . PEOPLES . They will have to do the same , as far as I can

understand . I do no t see anything e lse for them to do .

Mr. GA RD NER . How many Of them are married ?Capt . PEOPLES . Six.

Mr. GA RD NER . Six out of ten ?

Capt . PEOPLES . Six out of ten are married .

Mr. GA RD NER . They would have to take the ir fami lies away fromGloucester, would they no t ?Capt . PEOPLES . U ndoubtedly . There i s not anything else for

them.

14 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou are one Of th e men wh o a.

wages . L e t me

sta te for the benefit of the committee tha t Mr. i IS perfectly ri ht .

Tha t is a question that has be en thrashed out be fore The Hague

buna l—th e question of the manner of conducting the herring fisheries .

We send a sa iling crew from Glouce ster. Tha t sa i ling crew ge ts on

the fishing grounds on th e co ast Of Newfoundland . We have a rightto fi sh in Newfoundland

’s ba ck yard under th e tre a ty Of 1 8 1 8

:Th ere

they hire na tive s t o se t th e ne ts under the ir sup ermt endence in ca tching the fi sh . Formerly , it is true , under the gu ise o f h avmg fi sh

caught for them,they used t o b uy th e fi sh ,

in order t o me e t a theoret ical state of a ffa irs by which Newfoundland compe lled th e fi sh to

b e so ld .

Mr.HILL

. Y ou are erfectly familiarwi th thi s ma tter. I am seeking for information . Iread in a paperyesterday, coming down on the

car,tha t the board of ap ra isers h ad made thi s de ci si on , tha t as to

British vessels with Brit i s crews ca tching fi sh in Bri ti sh wa ters thefi sh

,under this recent decision of last week , were admi tted free t o the

U nited Sta tes if they were working with Ameri can cap i ta lMr. GA RD NER . Tha t is no t so . Th e new customs regula ti ons , whi ch

were ub lish ed about 10 days ago , in accordance wi th th e de cision of

Th e ague Tribuna l , rovides tha t an American vesse lmay go with a

sa iling crew—obvious y you could no t take a huge fishi ng crew and

keep them idle—t o Newfoundland . They go with a saili crew .

There they hire a crew to se t th e ne ts and cure th e fi sh on sea o lding .

These new Treasury decisions say tha t those men wh o are hired mustperform every operation in th e presence of the American vesse l andunder th e superv ision of h ermaster or crew . Th e crew need no t neoessarily take the pro cess of curing under the ir su ervision

,because

th e vesselmi htmeanwhile have moved off t o ano t erfishing sta tion,somewhere e se . In fact

,th e State Department and th e Treasury

Department and th e U nited Sta tes Fish Commission have a man on

th e spo t now down there,Mr. A lexander

,t o see tha t

,under the guise

of curing fi sh ,fi sh are no t bought and slipped in onto th e vesse ls .

Mr. HILL . Why does no t tha t decision practica lly break down th epresent duty on fi sh

,so far as herring is concerned ?

Mr. GA RD NER . On th e contrary,this decision is more strenuous

than th e old Tre asury regula tions as to what constituted the productof Am erican fisheries . This is a restriction instead of be ing an

enlargement . It is brou ht about artly by Th e Hague Tribunalde cision ,

and partly by t e so - ca lle Capt . Carter case,where the

Bo ard of Genera l A ppraisers decided in favor of Capt . Carter, whosevesse l was no t present a t all. They de cided in favor Of Capt . Carter.

Tha t case h as been appe a led by th e Government . I think theGovernment is right in appea ling th e case , though my constituentswould probably no t agree w ith me .

Capta in , art of your crew ,when you go after herring , are on

wages , are t ey no t ?

Capt . PEO PLES . They are all on wages ; all of them.

M?

r. GA RD NER . Th e men you hire are pa id by the barre l, are

theyno t

Capt . PEO PLES . The men we hire down there are ; but the crewthat we sa il the vesse l with from Gloucester t o the fishing groundsare all on wages .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 1 5

Mr. GA RD NER . Wha t can you say a s to the wages and the p ay as

compared with the wages a t th e port of Lunenburg ?Capt . PEO PLES . Th e wages a id a t Lunenburg two years ago were

8 22 a month formen be fore t i e mast, 8 35 for cooks and ma tes

, and

$60 t o $65 for capta ins . A ga inst tha t we have a wage out Of Gloncester of $30 t o $35 for men before the mast

, $60 t o $70 for cooksand mates

, and $ 100 to $ 125 for masters . Tho se are th e"

wages out

ofGloucester.

Mr. FO RD NEY . In o ther words,the wages pa id by you are about

double the wage s tha t are pa id for the fore ign fishermen ?

Capt . PEO PLES . Practically double ; y es , Sir.

The CHA IRM A N . Does anybody desire to ask the W itness any furtherquestionsMr. GA INES . Of course tho se men get their p ay and are found .

Wh at is th e re lative cost of victualing ?Ca t . PEO PLES . The bill of fare , of course , of the Nova Sco tia fi sh

ing ect engaged in the business would b e practica lly the same as to

the articular items ; but in the cost of those particular items thereW0 (1 b e a material difference , to my mind . I am not prepared tosay just how much th e difference would b e

,but there is a ma teria l

difference .

Mr. D W IGHT . D o you know What it costs you a week to bo ard yourmen ?

Capt . PEO PLES . To bo ard our men it would cost about $2 or

a week .

Mr. D W IGHT . What does it cost the Newfoundland fishermen ?

Capt . PEO PLES . I am no t prepared to say that .

Mr. GA RD NER . Can you tell what it co sts to bo ard men out of

Lunenburg , Nova Sco tia ?Capt . PEO PLES . NO , sir; I can no t tell exactly . I am no t prepared

t o make a statement on that , because I do no t know .

Mr. HIL L . Can you fi sh anywhere now in Canadian wa ters ?Capt . PEOPLES . NO

,sir.

Mr. HIL L . Can you fi sh at all within th e 3 -mi le limi t ?Capt . PEO PLES . NO , sir; no t in Canadian waters .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou can fi sh a t th e Magdalen Islands ?Capt . PEO PLES . Of course ; tha t is included in our rights under

the treaty of 18 18 .

Mr. HIL L . D o you have permi ssion from th e Canadi an Government now t o fi sh ?

Capt . PEO PLES . No t t o fi sh . Only t o buy bai t , fishing supph es ,

and t o ship crews .

Mr. HILL . HOW much do you have t o p ay for that privflege ?Capt . PEO PLES . per t on .

Mr.HILL

. Y ou can sa il down there and take your crew fr’

om the

citizens of Canada , a fter you sail ?Capt . PEO P LES . U nder th e terms of th e modus Vivendi ; y es ,Mr.HILL

. Y ou can no t fi sh under that license within the 3 -mi lelimit ?Capt . PEO PLES . We can only fi sh on th e coast of th e Magda len

Islands .

Mr.HILL

. Y ou can no t go into th e large bays and harbors, e tc, andfi sh ?

1 6 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Capt . PEO PLES . NO,sir.

Mr. HILL . D o es the new license tha t is proposed to b e g iven you

change tha t in any respe ct ?Capt . PEO PLES . I can no t see tha t it doe s . I t does no t g ive U S a

chance to fi sh inside of th e 3 -mile limit .

Mr. HILL . Can y ou take your fi sh ashore now and Sh i p them 130 the

U nited Sta tes ?Capt . PEO PLES . We can by paying a ton

Mr. HILL . D o they p ay du ty when they come in here ?C apt . PEO PLES . NO

,sir; they come in free o f duty .

Mr. GA RD NER . They have t o b e certified by th e consul .C apt . PEO PLES . Y es ; y ou have t o have th e consular certifica te to

tha t e ffect .

Mr. HILL . But y ou can now bring in free those caught by Ameri can

PEO PLES . Y es ; and transship them.

R . Wh a t have you to say abou t th e law li censmgauxi liary vesse ls ?Capt . PEO PLES . O f course they discriminate

.

against our vessels in

that respect . A vesse l wi th auxiliary power i s deni ed th e privflegewhich they give t o the sailing vesse l . Sh e is no t a llowed t o purchasea license by paying a t on .

Mr. GA R D N ER . In o ther words,this reduction in the co st of the

license , wh ich would amount on a 100—t on ve sse l to abou t $ 1 4 9 a

ye ar,is value less so far as th e auxiliary flee t is concerned ?

Capt . PEO PLES . Y es , Sir.

Mr. GA R D NER . Th e license which the Canadian Government is inthe habit o f issuing t o - day g ives them a chance t o b uy ice and su

plies and t o ship crews,but no t t o fi sh anywhere exce t on t e

Shores of th e Magda len Islands , where they have a right t o Sh . The

new tre aty does no t alter that in any way ,except tha t it save s a vessel

Of 100 tons about $ 1 4 9 a year. Y ou were evidently a litt le bitmisled .

Y ou asked about hiring crews down there . That is no t the practicein Canadian waters . Th e prac t ice is t o hire the crew when they got o the herring fisheries in Newfoundland wa ters , because setting thenets t o catch the herring takes a vas t number of men . Y ou hi re as

many as 50 now and then,do y ou no t ?

Capt . PEO PLES . Y es,sir; as many as 50; and some times more

than 50.

Mr. GA RD NER . These nets, y ou understand ,

are stre t ched across themouths of t h e inlets in order t o catch th e he rring as they appro achth e spawning beds .

Capt . PEO PLES . Y es,s ir. A nd we furnish fishing ge ar for those

fishermen and p ay them a barre l and higher for the ir produc t .

STATEMENT OF CA PT. WILLIAM H. THOMA S .

Mr. GA RD NER . Cap t . W illiam Thomas has one o f the largest vesselsin the fi shing b us ine ss . He is engaged in deep - sea fishing . Y ouca tch cod and haddo ck , do y ou no t ?

Capt . THOM A S . Y es,Sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . D O you own your own ve sse lCapt . THOMA S . Y es , sir.

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1 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. GA RD NER . So tha t you can no t carry on a profitable b uslneSS

if this treaty go es through ?Capt . THOM A S . It is my belie f tha t it would b e impo ssible .

Wl th

the vesse ls we have we could no t do it . I do no t be lieve I could howa crew of men

, anyhow . The would ha ve to go t o a fore ign POTt

somewhere—be cause we are al fishermen . Tha t is a ll we are . We

have no trade o f any o ther kind .

Mr. GA RD NER . Tha t is all these crews are—fi shermen ,

and no thingbut fishermen

Capt . THOM A S . No thing but fishermen ; no ,sir.

'

Ihcvmostly havethe ir families in Gloucester.

Mr. MCCA LL . Wha t time do you start out o n y our cod fish i ng ?Wha t time of the year ?Capt . THOM A S . We fo llow it the ye ar round , 1 2 months , S ir.

Mr. MCCA LL . Y ou are no t in the herring fishing b usmess ?

Capt . THO MA S . NO,sir ; I have never done i t .

Mr. GA RD NER . A s a genera l thing ,th e boa ts engaged in herring

fishing are faster boa ts than those tha t“

are engaged in cod fishing ?

Capt . THO MA S . Y es,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . And the same vesse l is no t rea lly sui table for bo th ?Capt . THOMA S . N0 ; we have to have auxiliary power for se ining .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . “ h a t is th e size of your vesse l ?Capt . THO M A S . One hundred and forty tons gross , nine ty- two t ons

ne t .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . Is it an auxiliary vessel ?Capt . THOMA S . No

,S ir ; it is a sa iling vesse l .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . Y ou ge t a license from th e Canadian Government,

thenCa t . THOMA S . We ll

,we have t o obta in a license once a year from

the anadian Government .

Mr. HAR R ISO N . Tha t is based on th e tonnage of the vesse l ?Capt . THOMA S . Y es

,Sir.

Mr. HA RR ISO N . It amounts t o about $2 2 5 a ye ar fo r your vesse l ?Capt . THOMA S . We p ay on th e ne t tonnage . It is abou t 8 138

,if

I am no t mistaken,besides o ther dues tha t we have t o p ay .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . If this agreement becomes a law in b o th countries .

your vesse l will only have t o p ay a nomina l license of 8 1 a vear.

Capt . THOMA S . Y es , Sir.

Mr. HA RR ISON . IS there any guarante e , if th e agre emen t do es notbe come a law

,that th e present system of licensing b y the Canadian

Government wi ll continue ?Capt . THOMA S . That is guaranteed for this ye ar.

Mr. GA R D NER . I can answer thatMr. HA RR ISO N . Wa it a minute . Le t me a sk one more question .

The exchange of le tters be tween th e O ffi cia ls of th e two governmentswho ne g o tia ted this arrangement provides fo r the co ntinuance ofissuing icense s to American vesse ls

,doe s it no t

Capt . THOMA S . I do no t know .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . It do es,I will say as a fa ct .

Mr. GA RD NER . I think , Mr. Harrison,tha t the Canadian Govern

ment did no t consent to that . I think it is worded in this w ay : Thatthe modus vivendi sha ll continue SO long as they want it to,but wefor our part do no t pledge o the r thing s t o continue any longer thanthey continue the modus vivendi . Su stant ially ,

the modus vivendi,

REC IPROC ITY W ITH C A N A D A . 1 9

in o ther words , under the exchange of no tes,is in no danger of be ing

broken . Tha t change of the no te was drawn u be fore th e trea ty .

Tha t was in conso uence of th e a ction of Th e ague Tribuna lMr. HA RR ISO N . will re ad the paragraph . It is ve rv brie f :Th e Government of Canada agree th at , until otherwise de termined b y them, the

li censes h i th erto i ssued to U ni ted Sta tes fish ing vessels under th e provisions ofsection 3of chap ter 4 7 of th e Revi sed Statutes of Canada , granting to such vessels certain privileges on th e A tlantic coast of Canada shall continue to b e issued and th at th e fee tob e p aid to th e Government Of Canada for such license b y th e owner or commanderof any such U n i ted S ta tes vesse l sh all h erea fter b e $1 p er annum.

Mr. GA RD NER . Tha t was the sentence we could no t ge t out untilo therwi se de termined .

” We could no t ge t an abso lute agreement ,and therefore did no t make an abso lute agreement on our part .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . But in good fa ith it is considered tha t tha t is one

of th e inducements for entering into this trea ty ?Mr. GA RD NER . I do no t understand SO . Tha t arose in an entirely

different way . Mr. Mille tt can explain tha t be tter than I can . Mr.

Millett w as th e expert at Th e Hague Tribuna l , and was also one ofthe American commissioners for drawing up those no tes for th e twoGovernments .

Mr. Mi lle tt,did you understand that there was any connection

between th e se ttlement of those re ula t ions under this trea ty of 1 8 18 ,as provided by Th e Hague Tribuna for a mixed commission

,and the

question of a trea ty with Canada on th e recipro city ma tter ?Mr. MIL LETT . No t a t all. Th e question of the Canadian license

comes up in connection with th e question of regula tions . I thinkMr. EllsworthMr. CLA RK . Speak a little louder. We can no t hear you .

Mr. MILLETT . I say the ma tter of th e Canadian li cense for fishingvessels h ad no connection

,so far as I know , with anything in th is

pIresent trea ty . It was brought u the first part of January

,when

on. A llen B . Ellsworth was here rom Canada seeking t o straightenout th e regulation wi th Canada , and t o make a business agreementra ther than t o bring it before a bo ard of ex erts .

Mr. GA RD NER . L e t me ex la in it from the eginning . Th e questionof regulations was be fore Th e Hague Tribuna l on this Oint . We

have certa in rights under th e tre aty of 1 8 1 8,in regard t o shing , bo th

in Canadi an and Newfoundland wa ters . They undertook by assingcertain local regulations t o contro l th e situation ,

as we claims t o th e

advantage of the ir own people a s against ours . We denied the irright t o regulate th e fishing by lo ca l regula t ion . The Hague Tribuna ldecided that they h ad the right t o pass those loca l regulations , butthat there must b e a permanent mixed commission t o pass on t h e

reasonableness Of the regulations . In o the rwords , that Canada and

Newfoundland should no t b e th e sole judges of the re asonableness of

any regula tion . In response to tha t th e permanent mixed commi ssion turned it ove r t o a commi tte e of experts t o pass on th e reason

ableness of the existing regula tions ; and what Mr. Harrison h as beenreading y ou is the report that was agreed upon by th e representat ives of th e U nited States and the re resent a t ives of Canada as t o the

reasonableness of regulations asse in consequence of our tre aty of

It has no connec tion w at ever,Mr. Harrison ,

and I think youwill find the State Department would be ar me out in th e view thatit never was a llied in mind , thought , or word with the question of

this recipro city tre aty . It h as been go ing on for ye ars .

20 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

mixed com

mission, the gentleman from Massa chuse tts W i ll agree w i th me tha t

this clause,appe aring where it do es a t this time in these nego t i a t i

lpns

,

a lthough it do e s no t bind th e. C anadian Government (be cause t 9 5 9

ofli cials can no t do so un til P arliament acts or fa ils to ac t ) , neverthe

less is a guaran ty of g o od fa ith in the ma tter, that se ems t o se cure

for Ameri can fishermen th e continuance o f th e license “ 1116 11 now can

only b e obta ined from y e ar to y e ar.

Mr. GA RD NER . We a ll know t he modus V i vend i . Th i s same talk

h as been go ing on fo r a genera tion ,about tha t modus v ivend i .

‘

Mr. CLA R K . Is this fishing industry in New Eng land a flouri shingindustry ,

or is it a vanishing one

Mr. GA R D N ER . I think it h a s been jus t abou t ho lding i t s own for a

good many ye ars p ast , so far a s fishn is conce rned:U nquestion

ably,SO far as pa cking is conce rned ,

I think I am safe in saying i t hasde ve loped .

Th e CHA IRMA N . Turn around,ple ase

,so I can he ar y ou .

Mr. GA RD N ER . I turned around to ge t the assent o f my W itnessesto the fact tha t th e packing industry h as deve loped .

Mr. CLA RK . In th e last 100 y e ars th e popula tion of th e U ni tedSta tes h as multiplied about 1 8 time s , and there have been tha t manymore pe ople t o e a t fi sh . If this is a flourishing industry , wh y has notth e size o f the industry ke t up w ith the popula tion ?Mr. GA RD NER . I do no t t ink it is a flourishing industry , Mr. Clark .

Mr. CLA RK . What is tha tMr. GA RD NER . I say ,

I do no t think it is a flourishing industry .

Mr. CLA RK . It is no t a flourishing industry , no ma tter what youdo with it ?Mr. GA RD NER . Oh , y ou c an ask these gentlemen . A sk

Thomas’

s crew and the y will te ll you there is some difference .

cause th e industry is no t flourishing is no reason wh y y ou Shouldroo t it out .

Mr. CLA RK . I am no t try ing t o ro o t it out .

Mr. GA RD NER . I’

Vell,it would seem so .

Mr. CLA RK . IVell, y ou are wrong . I would like t o askCapt . Thomas

a question or two . Capta in ,are th e fi sh as plentiful as the y used to

b e ? How old a man are you ?

Capt . THOM A S . I am 53 years old .

Mr. CLA RK . How long have y ou been in th e fishing businessCapt . THOM A S . A bout 37 y e ars .

Mr. CLA RK . A re t h e fi sh a s plentiful now as th e y were when y ou

first began tha t bus iness ?Capt . THO M A S . A t times : y es , sir. Year before last—a y ear a g o

th e fi sh w ere more plentiful than I have ever s een them.

i

L astt

y ear

they went off.

Mr. CLA RK . A re your crew in partnership with y ou or d o y ou p aythem sa laries ?11 k lCa t . THOM A S . Yo a t a e s i aros . Th e Y t

‘s‘

s‘

o

th e (xiiew takes art,th e same a s I do .

I t akt b it part and

Mr. CLA RK . on have. b e en a t th i s b usni css ever s ince y ou havebeen a grown man 8

Capt . THOM A S . Y es,sir.

Mr. CLA RK . Of cours e , I do no t know much about th e bus iness andam inquiring for info rma t i o n . ould th e se men tha t constituteyour crew b e classed a s Skilled laborers or as common laborers ?

Mr. HA RR ISO N . Wha te ver may b e this de cision of th ea

REC IPRO C ITY W ITH CA NAD A . 2 1

Capt . THOM A S . They are no th ing b ut fishermen,the same as you

would ca ll them sa ilors . Tha t is all.

Mr. CL ARK . The y are no thing b u t fishermen ?

Capt . THO M A S . No,sir.

Mr. CLA RK . D o y ou me an th a t the y could no t do anything e lse ?Cap t . THOM A S . W e ll . I do no t mean tha t they are blo ckheads

entire ly ,but tha t is the ir branch o f business .

Mr. CL ARK . If they were wha t are ca lled ordinary common laborers , they could do a lmos t anything .

Cap t . THOM A S . i Y ell, they might take a pick and Shove l . I suppose .

Mr. CLA RK . I t is only skilled labore rs who are confi ned to one

branch of indust ry .

Cap t . THOMA S . IVell, I suppose SO .

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou would no t go ou t o f business if this thing w erepassed , wou ld y ou

Cap t . THOM A S . I do no t know tha t I am capable of any thing e lse .

Mr. CLA RK . But you would go on and make money jus t as vb u donow . would y ou no t

Cap t . THOM A S . I do no t know where I would go ,unless I w en t to a

fore ign p o rt . I would no t exp ec t t o make any money a t home .

Mr. CLA RK . IVould your ship b e good for anything e lse ?Cap t . THOM A S . For fishing ? It would depend on wha t part of th e

world sh e would go t o . I do no t believe they would w an t her in th eProvince : A different ty pe of vesse l en t ire ly is used there .

Mr . FO RD NEY . Have you more than one vessel ?Capt . THOM A S . I own a small part in ano ther one—one - e ighth .

Mr. FO RD NEY . mi a t I mean b y th e question is thi s,Capta in .

Ment ion h as been made of th e fact tha t th e business is a flourishingindustry . Y ou have been 2 7 y ears in th e business

,and you own

but one vessel . Y ou have no t made a grea t dea l of profit ; or elsey ou have been a Sp endthrift .

Capt . THOM A S . NO ' I have brough t up a large family .

Mr. GAR D NER . He h as been in th e business 37 years ?Mr. CLA RK . How much is your int erest in this vesse l worth ?Cap t . THOM A S . Sh e co st usMr. CLA RK . An d y ou own three - quart ers of it ’

Capt . THOM A S . Y es,sir.

Mr. CLA R K . How much of this o ther bo at do you own ?

Cap t . THO M A S . I own one - e ighth .

Mr. CLA RK . How much is tha t Whole‘

b o at worth ?Capt . THOM A S . Now

,Sir ?

Mr. CLA R K . No ; how much w as it worth new ?

Capt . THOM A S . It was worthMr. CLA R K . A boutCapt . THOM A S . Y es

,S ir.

Mr. CLARK . D o you own the house where y ou live ?

Capt . THOM A S . Y es , Sir.

Mr. CLAR K . How much is it worth ?Capt . THOMA S . I t depends on how things are go ing to turn .

If it is thi s w ay,I suppo se it is worth If it go es the o ther

w ay,it w ould no t b e worth anything . [L aughter.]

Mr. CLA R K . D o you own any o ther rea l esta te ?Capt . THOMA S . Y es .

Mr. CLA RK . HOW much ?

22 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH C A N A D A .

Capt . THOMA S . A nother house ,Mr. CLA RK . How much are they worth ?Ca t . THOMA S . I can te ll you wha t they cost me . I can no t PM

a va ue on them now .

Mr. CLA RK . How much did they co st y ou ?Capt . THOMA S . They cost me

Mr. CLA RK . A pie ce ?Capt . THOMA S . No

,Sir ; for bo th .

Mr. CLA RK . D o you ow n any land ,unimproved ?

Capt . THOMA S . No,sir ; just the little yard in front of ea ch one .

Mr. CLA RK . Have you any bank stocks ?Capt . THOMA S . No

,sir.

f

Mr. CLA RK . How much are y ou worth altoge ther ?Capt . THOMA S . A t present ?Mr. CLA RK . Y es .

Capt . THOMA S . No,sir; far from it . A bout would coverIt .

Mr. FO RD NEY . How long did it take y ou t o accumula te that ?Capt . THOMA S . Thirty—seven years .

Mr. FORD NEY . A ny ordinary Congressman could do better thanthat . [L aughter. ]Mr. HILL . Y ou are engaged in th e deep—sea fishing , on th e banks ?Capt . THOMA S . Y es

,sir.

Mr. HILL . Cod fishing ?Capt . THOMA S . Y es

,sir; cod fishing and ha libut and haddo ck .

Mr. HILL . Would y ou say there is less money in th e cod fi sheriesthan there is , as a general rule , year after year, in inshore fishing ?Capt . THOM A S . No , sir; it is hard for me to decide. It changes

about . Some years th e inshore fishing will o ffset th e offshore fi shing.

Mr. HILL . I do no t want to b e inquisit ive ,but are y ou an American

citizen born in th e U nited Sta tes ?Capt . THOM A S . No

,sir.

Mr. HILL . Where were you born ?Capt . THOM A S . I was born in Nova Sco tia .

Mr. HILL . I’Vere you engaged in th e fishing business in NovaSco tia before you came t o th e U nited Sta tes ?Capt . THOMA S . No

,sir.

Mr. HILL . Wh a t I wanted t o ge t was a compara tive sta tementas to th e two classes of industry—th e deep - se a fishing and the

inshore fishing . Wh ich of the two is genera lly considered t o b e themore profitable ?Capt . THOM A S . We ll

,it changes . Some years th e inshore fishing

ll b ea t th e o ffshore fishing , and then it goes b ack the o ther w ay .

Mr. HILL . Y ou have been engaged all th e time in deep - se a fishing ?Capt . THOM A S . Y es

,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou do some inshore fi sh ino,do you no t ?

Capt . THOM A S . We do some haddo ck fi shin y e s , air. In thesummer time we run to Gloucester w ith our fi s and in th e wintertime we run to Boston t o marke t the fi sh .

Mr. HILL . I suppose there is no standard price for fi sh ; i t varies

from ye ar to year .

Capt . THOM A S . Y es .

Mr. I'IILL . Wh a t a ffects the price ? Wha t makes the variation ?

h

Cap t . THOM A S . It depends upon th e quantity,th e same as o ther

t ings .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 23

Mr. HILL . A ccording to th e supply and demand ?Capt . THOMA S . Y es

,sir.

Mr. HILL . Wh at are the genera l variations from year to ye ar inthe price ?Capt . THOM A S . A bout 50 cents is as much as we genera lly have .

Mr. HILL . Fifty cents a hundred pounds ?Capt . THOMA S . On sa lt fi sh ; ye s ,Mr. HILL . Wh at is th e price this ye ar ?Capt . THOMA S . This ye ar it is I think .

Mr. HILL . a hundred pounds ?Capt . THOMA S . a hundredwe ight ; yes , sir.

Mr. HH.L . Wh at was it last ye ar ?Capt . THOMA S . It was somewhere around if I am no t

mistaken .

Mr. HILL . difference be tween this ye ar and last ?Capt . THOMA S . Y es

,Sir.

Mr. HIL L . What is the highest you have ever known it to b e ?Capt . THOM A S . This ye ar.

Mr. HILL .

Capt . THOMA S . Y es,sir.

Mr. HILL . That is the hi ghest you have ever known it to b e S inceyou have been fishing ?Capt . THOMA S . Y es

,sir.

Mr. HILL . Wh at is the lowest you have eve r known it to b e ?Capt . THOMA S .

Mr. HILL . When was that ?Capt . THOMA S . If I am no t mistaken it w as at the time of the

treaty with Canada .

Mr. HILL . During th e recipro city treaty with Canada ?Capt . THOMA S . I am not p ositive ; but I think so .

Mr. HILL . It was then and it is nowCap t . THOMA S . Y es

,sir.

Mr. HILL . Was tha t effected,in your judgment

,by th e supply and

demand,or was it effected by the recipro city trea ty ?

Capt . THOMA S . I should judge that it was effected bv th e quantity—th e overproduction .

Mr. HA RR ISON . Y ou are a na tive of th e Province of Nova Scotia ?Capt . THOMA S . Y es

,sir.

Mr. HA RR ISO N . How do es th e price of fi sh in th e Nova Sco tia markets com are with th e price of fi sh in th e Boston markets ?Ca t . HOMA S . I do no t know th at I could give you very much of

an i ea about tha t . In Nova Scotia they have different ways of

Weig hing th e fi sh . They we igh it b th e quinta l , 1 12 pounds, dry ,as tIi ey call it . I am to ld that this “

all they go t as high as for

1 12 pounds .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . How do es that compare with th e pri ce of fi sh In

th e Bo ston marketCapt . THOMA S . We almost doubled that this year.

Mr. HA RR ISON . It is a lmost twice as expensive here ?Capt . THOMA S . Y es ; we get for a hundredweight at th e port

of Boston .

Mr. GA RD NER . I want t o get tha t evidence correctly , because It Is

misstated in'

it s resent form. Y ou do not mean that a dry quintal 111the Bo ston mar et sells for

24 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Capt . THOM A S . a hundredweigh t , sir, green .

Mr. GA RD NER . Wh at do es a dry quintal sell for In Nova Sco t i a ?

Capt . THOMA S . Somewhere around $6 I am no t p osItIV e .

Tha t is 1 12 pounds,dry .

Mr. FORD NEY . Y ou have sta ted that th e lowest prlce that you

could remember was caused by overproduction ?Capt . THOM A S . Y es , sir.

Mr. FOR D NEY . Was that overproduction no t caused or partlycaused by importations from Nov a Sco tia ?Capt . THOMA S I could no t say osit ively .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Y ou say it was uring the time of the treaty W i thCanada ?Ca t . THOM A S . I am not positive . It was in that ne ighborhood .

But know th e lowest we go t wasMr. MCCA LL . D o you remember th e year ? Can you g ive th e ye ar

of that price ?Capt . THOM A S . I think it was somewhere around 1 8 8 2—somewhere

in that ne ighborhood . I am no t positive of that , e i ther.

Mr. GA RD NER . I can put on w itnesses later wh o can tell you thesethings positively—some of th e o ldermen .

Capt . THOM A S . Y es,sir. I have no t go t those things down very

well .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . In what shape are those fi sh when th ev are so ldin the Boston market ?Capt . THOMA S . They are what we ca ll market fi sh . They have

to b e first class,on ice .

Mr. LO NGWORTH . A re they p acked ?Capt . THOMA S . They are on ice .

Mr. LO NGW O RTH . They are no t sa lted ?Capt . THOMA S . They are no t salted for the Boston marke t ; no ,

Sir.

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Is tha t the condition of all the codfi sh in the

Boston marke t ?Capt . THOM A S . Y es

,sir.

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . They are so ld packed in ice ?Capt . THOMA S . They are so ld packed in ice ; y es , sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Is tha t right ?Capt . THOMA S . That is ca lled Bo ston market .

Mr . GA RD NER . Of course on th e T wharf,they are fresh fi sh ; b ut

there is a good de al of salt fi sh in Boston .

Capt . THOMA S . I thought h e was askin about my fi sh .

Mr. GA RD NER . I think he was askin a out th e busineCapt . THOM A S . Some of th e fi sh are rought to Boston in salt .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . Wh a t is th e price in Boston ?Capt . THOMA S . It go es up and down . It varies .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . D o you know wha t it is nowCapt . THOM A S . No

,sir.

Mr. HA RR ISO N . It was cents a pound on Sa turday , and 7 a}cents a pound on Tuesday of this w eek . How do those prices compare w ith th e prices tha t are pa id back in the provincia l marke ts ?Capt . THO MA S . I can no t sa

y.

Mr. HA RR ISO N . Y ou have een in and out of the provinces allyour life ?Capt . THOMA S . But I can no t say wha t th e prices are in the fi sh

marke ts .

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/join

26 BECIP ROCITY W ITH CA N A D A .

wi ll a t ownnames are to th is agreement sub scrib ed , tha t the sa id

p aid for b y and th at sa id master or ski pp er, W l th the

said fishermen ,will pursue th e cod or o th e r fish eries , in th e sch ooner and

w ill use th e ir b est endeavors for th e success o f t h e voyage or vo y ages th ey may 8 0until th is a reement is terminated ; and w ill b e ready a t. a ll time s, and W i ll not leaveth e sa id so ooner w ith out p ermission of the ma ster or owner th ereof. A nd i t Is

agreed th at in consid era tion of th e sh are h ere inafter me n t ioned th e seamen and

fish ermen sh all do a ll th e la b or ne ce ssary to th e fitting o f sa id vesse l for th e voyageor voyages, and sh a ll also a t th e exp iration of sa id voyage and voyages clean up saidvessel and stow away h er sa ils, gear, and a ll ta ckle and ap p a rel, to th e

sa tisfacti on Of

the owner o r agen t of sa id vesse l. A nd th e cook sha ll clean up a ll th e d i sh es and

cooking utensils and also th e forecastle , to th e satisfaction of th e owner or agent ofsaid vessel. A nd it is agreed tha t th e entire p roduct o f sa id voyage or voya es shall

b e de livered to th e owner or agent o f said vessel. A nd th a t sa id owner r agentshall sell or d isp ose of th e same , and Immediate ly account to th e master, cook, andcrew as follows , viz : Th e price of said p roduct sh a ll b e th e p rice and the

owner or agent sh all ad just, d ivide , and distrib ute th e p ro c e eds of said voyage orvoyages as fo llows, viz : To th e owner orowners o f sa id vesse l one h alf, to th e master,cook, and crew th e o ther h alf in p ro portion to th e quanti ty or numb er of fi sh caugh tb y each ,

respective ly , unless o therwise agreed to as b elow .

A nd it is agreed tha t one - h alf of the fo llow ing ch arges shall b e deducted from th emaster, cook,

and crew’s shares in p rop ortion to th e quant ity or numb er of fi sh

caugh t b y each , resp ective ly , viz : Th e entire exp ense of sh ip p ing fi sh h ome or to a

marke t, commission for selling , b arre ls and packages . and p acking mackere l.A nd there sh all a lso b e deducted from each sh are an equa l portion of one - h alf of

th e entire exp ense incurred for b a it , ice nip p ers, towing , ch ronometer h ire ,license

fees paid for commercial p rivileges in foreign orts and all oth er fore ign p ort ch arges,and all commissions and exch ange on drafts rawn to p ay said charges .

A nd also an equal p ortion of th e wh o le of th e following charges, viz : Saw ing wood,medicine , wa ter, h o isting , scra p ing and slush ing mast , tarring rigging , scrub b ingvessel and prep aring h er for painting , ta rring , mend ing and h anging seines, h ire of

patent purser, teaming or ligh tering salt and b arrels, and also all condensed milk,canned goods, p reserves , and similar luxuries not included in th e regular outfit .A nd It is a lso agreed tha t th ere shall b e deducted from th e Sh ares of th e master

and each of th e crew an equal p ortion of th e wh o le of th e cook’s wages or extra com

p ensat ion for cooking , b ut in no case shall th e owner or owners of said vessel b e liab leto p ay such wages or comp ensation to th e cook unless th e same sh all have b eendeducted from th e sh ares of th e master and crew .

.

A nd it is also agreed th a t an equa l p ortio n of all money pa id for lab or for fittingsa id vesse l for th e vo yage or voyages, wa tch ing and cleaning up sa id vessel a t theexp i ra tion of sa id voyage or voyages, sh all b e deducted from each of th e sh ares ofeach of th e crew .

A nd it is a lso agreed th at if, for any cause , t he fi sh are ne ith er counted nor keptseparate th e master and each of th e crew are to sh are and share alike . A nd if thefi sh are caugh t in dories or with trawls or se ines th e master is to rece ive an averageshare unless o th erwise Sp ecified and agreed t o .

“

A nd it is further agreed b etween th e partie s th a t th e master or Skipper, togeth erW i th the fish ermen , are entitled to a ll th e b enefits and privileges and sub ject to allth e duti es and penalties provided b y t h e laws o f the U nited Sta tes . Sa id fish ermenexp ressly agree and promise and ob lige th emse lves to do th e ir dutv on b oard saidvessel, and to o b ey a ll lawful commands of said master or the o ffi cers of sa id vessel

yvh oev

zje r th ey may b e , and at all times and p laces, until th is ag re ement is fully per

orme

“lg engage .

Countersigned .

h . 41gent or Owner.

RECIPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A . 27

[Fish ing Sh ip p ing Pap er.]

U NITED STA TES or A MERICA .

D ISTRICT OF GLOU CESTER.

Th is agreement, made th is day of 190 b y and b etweenth e owners of th e fish ing sch ooner now lying in th e h arb or of

of the first part, and the p ersons wh ose names are b elow sub scrib ed intending to goas fishermen on sa id sch ooner under th e command of as master, ofthe seco nd p art , witnesseth as follows :1 . Th e said p arties of th e first part h ereb y charter and let to th e said part ies of

th e second p art, in consideration of th e agreements h erein made b y th em, th e wh oleof said vessel, W i th th e sails, rigging , and ap purtenances, to b e used b y th em undertheir sole control for and during unless th is agreement is sooner terminated ,as b elow p rovided , in t he prosecution o f th e fish ing b usiness.

2. Th e sa id p a rties of th e second p art h ereb y agree in considera tion of the agreements h ere in made b y th e parties of th e first p art to provide and furnish a llnecessaryfish ing gear, includ ing dories and all outfits and provisions for th e p rosecution ofsa id fish ing enterp rise , including salt, ice , b a it, etc.

, at their own expense—to use

th eir b est efforts during all th e time th is agreement remains in force for th e successof said fish ing enterprise

—and to pay sa id p arties of th e first part, as comp ensa tionfor th e use of sa id vessel, of th e gross proceeds of th e fi sh wh ich may b ecaugh t on sa id sch ooner or in th e prosecution of said fish ing enterprise during saidtime , all exp enses of towing , wharfage , and we igh ing b eing first deducted from said

grossIproce eds.

3 . t. is expressly agreed tha t ne ith er th e p arties of th e first part nor said vesselshall b e liab le for any deb ts or liab ilities incurred b y sa id parties of th e second partfor fish ing gear, outfits,

provisions, or o th er e xp enses in th e prosecution of said fi sh

ing enterprise , b ut for a l such deb ts and liab i lt ies said parties of th e second partshall b e solely resp onsib le .

4 . It is also agreed tha t each fish ing trip made during th e continuance of th isagreement sh a ll b e se ttled up and paymentmade to said parties of th e first p art of allsums due to th em under th is agreement, to th e close of said trip , b efore th e vesselleaves port for anoth er trip .

5. It is also agreed tha t th e parties of th e first part may at any time cancel andtermina te th is cha rter party b y taking p ossession of said vessel, and th a t th ey maytakepossession for th a t p urpose wh erever said vesselmay b e found .

6. or the due p erformance of all th e ir agreements h ere in expressed th e partiesof th e second part agree to b e jointly and severa lly liab le to th e parties of th e firstpart .7 . It is also agreed that all fi sh taken during th e continuance of th is agreement

shall b e delivered to and sold b y a s agent of b oth p arties th ereto , andthat the accounts of each trip shall b e se ttled and ad justed b y h im as such agent.8 . In case th e said vessel shall b e emp loyed b y th e parties of th e second p art intowing or assisting vessels in distress, it is agreed th a t for such use th e p arties of th efirst part sh all b e pa id one - halfof all th e salvage comp ensation rece ived or collectedb y said p arties of t h e second part .

A gent for Owners.

Wi tness to th eir sign Time forwh i ch th eyTime of entry. Men’s names. Qua lity .

ing . eng age .

Countersigned.

A gent or owner.

Capt . THOMA S . No , Sir ; not to my knowledge .

Mr. GA RD NER . I will leave this with the commi ttee . It IS veryinteresting . It w ill show you how it is done .

2 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CAN AD A .

The CHA IRMA N . A re there any further questions ?fiMr. GA RD NER . I think I wi ll ca ll now a working fisherman,

a sh

skinner,and then I wi ll ca ll th e president of th e board of trade , and

he will b e perhaps th e mo st expert Wi tness .

STA TEMENT OF MR . FREEMAN BROWN.

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr.Brown , y ou used to b e the president of the

Fish Skinners ’

U nion when the union was in ex i stence ?Mr. BROWN . Y es

,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . And you were th e former president of th e Glou

o ester Centra l L abor U ni onMr.

BROWN .I w as a t that time ; yes , sir. I w as presi dent of the

Centra l Labor U nion at that time .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou were th e champion fi sh ski nner of Massachu

setts,a lso

,on test

,were you no t ?

Mr. BROWN . Y es , sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Fish skinners are th e men who prepare th e fi sh for

p acking , for manufa cture . and so on . W ill you te ll the a ttitudet oward this trea ty of the men who skin the fi sh after they comeashore and prepare them for the market ?Mr. BR OWN . We ll

, gentlemen ,I have no t th e true sentiments of

th e people as a b od {but I can spe ak for myself , and can t e ll youwha t I think it won (1 me an t o every man who works in th e shop ifthis trea ty were to take e ffe ct . I know tha t if th e shop people h adbeen consulted on this ques tion they would certa inly have t akena ction ; but the re is no org anized body in Glouceste r to—day of fi sh

Skinners . The union h as gone out of existence . I came down heret o represent th e fishe rmen

,and a lso th e w ag e e arners in th e shop ,

whe re I have e arned my live lihood for ne arly 35 ye ars .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou are bo th a fi sherman and a skinner ; but yourpro fession is th at of a fishe rman

,is it no t ?

Mr. BROW N . Y es , sir ; I am bo th .

Mr. GA RD N ER . W ha t can you te ll about th e wages and hours infi sh—skinning establishments in Nova Sco tia a s compared to the

wages and hours in fi sh—skinning establishments in Gloucester ?Mr. BROWN . In Gloucester we have wag es on a sca le . Every

man re ce ives th e same amount . In Nova Sco t ia one man wo rkinga t a bench may b e re ce iv ing 20 cents fo r a b ox of fi sh . and ano therfe llow a longside of h im ma y rece ive 1 5 cen ts . In Gloucester everyman working a t th e bench rece ives very fi ne w ag es . Th e work isdone on a pie cework basis . Th e smart er a man is th e mo re moneyh e makes . In Nova Sco t ia , a long (

‘

ap e Sho re places where 1 havebeen , th e w age e arner th e re re ce ive s anything . One w ill b e wo rkingby the week , and ano the r- o ne w ill b e wo rking b y th e hour. and p robablyano ther will b e working by th e pie ce . O f course th ev do no t haveany faculties such a s we have in Glouces t er for tha t business .

Mr. GA R D NER . How much in w a g es wo uld th e a verag e sma rt man

kno ck out in a week’

s time up in Nova Sco tia ,a long (

‘ap e Shore ?

Mr. BROWN . I have b een in shops Where men were wo rking ,at

Cape Sho re ,and I have to ld t hem t he amount of fi sh tha t I have

taken th e skins o il of in one da y , and they ha ve sa id : If y ou hadbeen here you would have made a fortun e —and the y are rece ivinga b o ut ha lf as much fo r a b ox as I was receiv ing in Gloucester.

REC IPROC ITY W ITH C A N AD A . 29

Mr. GA RD NER . Tha t is , you go t tw ice as much for skinning a b oxof fi sh as they did ?Mr. BRO WN . Y es

,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . How about th e hours of labor down there ?Mr. BRO WN . There are pra ctica lly no hours of labor. They work

any old time .

Mr. GA RD NER . Whereas in Gloucester th e hours of labor are Wha tMr. BROWN . In Gloucester nine hours constitutes a day .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou have no persona l knowledge on th e questionof women fi sh cleaners in th e provinces

,have you ?

Mr. BROWN . No,sir; I have no t .

Mr. GA RD NER . Do es th e committee wish t o ask Mr. Brown anyquestions ?Mr. HILL . D o none of th e men work by th e day in Gloucester ? Is

it all pieceworkMr. BROWN . A few wo rk by th e day .

Mr. HILL . There can rea lly b e no actua l comparison of th e difference in wages , c an there , be tween piecework and day’

s work ?Mr. BROWN . Y es

,sir there is . The smart pieceworker certa inly

makes more than a man who is hired by the day or week ; but th eaverage man probably would compare equa lly with the day worker.

Mr. HILL . How long have you been working on piecework ?Mr. BROWN . I have been working on pieceworkMr. HILL . I do no t mean you ,

persona lly ; b ut how long have skinners been working on piecework ?Mr. BROWN . A lways .

Mr. HILL . A lways ?Mr. BROW N . Y es

,sir.

Mr. RA ND ELL . Y ou say you were the head of the labor union thatwas there ?Mr. BROWN . I was .

Mr. RA ND ELL . How did it come t o break up ?Mr. BROWN . W e secured satisfactory conditions and prices .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Y ou disso lved the union because you had won

everything you wanted ? Was no t the union practically broken up bythe parties engaged in th e manufacturing business there ?Mr. BROWN . No

,sir; it was no t practically broken up by that .

The union went out on a strike,but it ga ined all it wanted .

Mr. RA ND ELL . The strike broke the union ?Mr. BROWN . Well , practically so . I could not say j ust that ,

either.

Mr. GA RD N ER . Was no t this the way it came about : The unionwent out on strike

,making certa in demands , and part of the settle

ment of that strike was the granting of the demands and the d i ssolut ion of the union . Was no t tha t it ?Mr.

BROWN . It was some thing similar to tha t . The uni on di d no t

go out of existence until a ye ar after th e strike was o ver. It praotically dw indled away .

Mr. RA ND ELL . It languished for a ye ar, and then d i ed ?Mr. BROWN . Y es , sir.

Mr. GA R D N ER . The men did no t p ay the ir dues after they go t wha tthey were a fter. I think tha t was it .

Mr. BROWN . Y es ; tha t was it .

Mr. IFA ND ELL . Y ou were a good de a l like the man who went outafter a lion

,and the lion died .

30 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr.BRO WN . No

,sir; we re ce ived 15 per cent incre ase in wage s and

shorter hours .

Mr. RA ND ELL . A nd the laboring men have never h ad the courage

to organize the union Since . How long ago was tha t ?

Mr. BR OWN . Tha t was six ye ars ago .

Mr. GA RD NER . Tha t is no t a proper statement o f the Si tua ti on , Itake it . The laboring men have all the courage In the world , butwhen they found they could make a sa tisfactory arrangement theydid no t care to go ahead paving due s t o the uni on ; but they wouldform the union to - morrow if there was any a ttempt t o lower wages .

Is no t tha t th e fact ?Mr. BR OWN . Y es

,sir.

Mr.HA RR ISO N . D o y ou work for the trust up there ?

Mr.BROWN . I have been working for the Gorton

—Pew Co .

The CHA IRM A N . I would su gest tha t we now take a recess unti l2 o

’clo ck this afterno on . W it out o bjection ,a rece ss Wl ll b e taken

until 2 o’clo ck .

(The committe e thereupon took a recess until 2 o’

c lo ck p . In . )

A FTER RECESS .

(A t th e expiration of the recess th e committee resumed its session . )Th e CHA IRMA N . Y ou may pro ceed , Mr. Gardner, whenever you

are ready .

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Cha irman . vour committee h as received thistelegram :

A very strong fee ling in favor of the rec ip rocal a g reement with Canada exists amongc itizens of Gloucester. Ne ith er the b oard of tra e , as an organiza tion , nor th e citizens generally h ave auth orized any committee to protest aga inst it . From careful

inquiry I am convinced the b oard of trade would favor it .

CHA RLES F . WO N SO N .

Mr. Wonson is president of a fi sh company .

A s that will go into th e record ,I want t o read this te legram,

and

have it in th e record side by side w ith th e o ther. It is from th e vicepresident of th e Gloucester Board of Trade

,th e president be ing pres

ent here to—day :GLO U CESTER , February 1 .

Of the 1 74 resident memb ers of th e b oard of. trade ,140 h ave de clared thems elves

as aga inst th e prop osed trade arrangement . Only 3 are for it ; 6 noncommittal . Not

time to see th e rema in ing 24 memb ers .

FRED . A . EA RCE ,Vice President .

Th e CHA IRMA N . I suppose y ou are reading tho se to show tha t th e

geop le ofGloucester are no t an exception to th e people o f th e U nitedta tes , in that there is a lways a difference of opinion ?Mr. GA RD NER . I am show ing tha t there is a lways a sma ll minority

try in to ho ld itself out as rep resent incr public op inion .

Be o re I Go on w ith the hearing I should like t o introduce MayorP a tch

,of Groucester.

Th e CHA IRM A N . A fter all,Mr. Gardner

, th e facts in th e case are

th e best criteri on .

Mr. GA RD NER . Certa inly .

REC IP ROC ITY W ITH C A N A D A . 3 1

I wish‘

to simply have MayorP a tch,representing the city o fGlouces

t er and i t s c itizens , march up to your desk and present you withthe petition signed by himse lf and every member of the municipa lcouncil . I sha ll no t ask h im t o g ive any evidence .

Mr. ISA A C PA TCH . Mr. Cha irman and gentlemen,I have no t th e

petition here , but I understand a copy of it was sent t o you .

Mr. MCCA LL . We have copies of it, and will regard it as having been

introduced by Mayor P a tch .

Mr. GA RD NER . Now I want to ca ll on Mr. Orlando Merchant,of the

fi rm of O rlando Merchant Co .

,who h as no thing t o do with the

Gorton- P ew Co .

, but represents one of th e outside concerns . A ll th eoutside concerns have agreed to have the ir case presented by the

general manager of th e Gorton- Pew Co . which concern Mr. Clarkand Mr. Harrison characterized as th e fi sh trust .

” Meanwhile,I

want t o present one particular item of evidence from Mr. OrlandoMerchant , and then I will go on with th e o ther gentlemen .

This is Mr. O rlandoMerchant,of th e fi rm ofOrlando Merchant Co .

STA TEMENT OF MR . ORLAND O MERCHANT.

Mr. GA RD N ER . Mr. Merchant,in 1 907

,as I understand it

,your fi rm

built two vesse ls , bo th called Clintonia . One was built in Lunenberg , Nova Sco tia ,

the o ther was built in Gloucester,Mass . Those

two vesse ls , as I understand it,were built on precise ly th e same

models , with pre cise ly th e same mo lds,th e same spars and the same

rig , and were identica lly sister ships in every respect,even to the

extent of having th e same name .

I wish y ou would te ll th e committee what th e Clintonia,of Lunen

berg , No va Sco tia , cost when ready for se a,and what th e Clintonia

,

of Gloucester,Ma ss

,co st when re ady for se a ?

Mr. MERCHA NT . The Clin tonia , ofGloucester, Mass,cost ready for

sea about O f course I did no t build the o ther Clintonia f ; she

was built down there . Sh e cost ready for sea .

Mr. GA RD NER . That is th e only iece of evidence I Wish t o bring out

fromMr. Merchant . Thank you,r. Merchant .

Gentlemen,as I sa id t o you ,

there are a number of gentlemen

here wh o represent those firms who have no fishing vesse ls , but are

simply packers . O f course they would like t o have the ir greenfi sh brought in free

,rovided th e du t y can b e retained on the ir

fini shed product . VVit one exce tion they are all against th e trea ty .

Tha t exception I sha ll no t introduce a s one of my witnesses , b ut Ithink y ou ought to he ar h im.

Now,I am go ing t o intro duce t o vo u a representative of the W i cked

Fish Trust .

Mr. CLA RK . Mr. Gardner, if you wi ll permit me,I want to correct

you about one thing . Neither Mr. Harrison nor myse lf ever men

tioned the Fish Trust ; and so far as I am concerned I never heardof one until you sa id something or o ther about a Fish Trust .

Q

Mr. GA RD NER . It is always a we ll- known form of ende avoring t o

prej udice public opinion ,

t o spe ak of th e largest concern in anyocali ty as the Fish Trust , or some o ther form of trust .

Mr. CLA RK . That may b e .

Mr GA RD NER . Now I am go ing to introduce Mr. Carro ll , who i s

general manager of th e Gorton—P ew Co . and also president of the

Gloucester Bo ard of Trade . He is a man that you gentlemen can

32 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

riddle full of ho les , because h e is a wicked trust magna te , on a

salary of a year. He will come before you and answer2111119 811

;any questions that can b e put , because he is th o rough

ly‘

famlllal‘ Wlt

th e entire Gloucester business . In one thing h e wi ll differ from the

captains who have testified before you ,like Ca t . W i lli amH. Thomas .

He will testify ,if you ask him

,that fresh sh mi ht come an free

without injurin o his business . On the o ther hand ,ap t . Wi lli amH.

Thomas would have testified , if I h ad asked h im the questi on , that tohave fresh fi sh coming in free would b e j ust as b ad.

fo r h im as sa lt fi sh .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Let me ask y ou a questi on right there .

Mr. GA RD NER . D o you wish me to recallCap t .W i lli am H. Thomas ?

Mr. LO NGW ORTH . N0 ; all I want to ask you is thi s : Is i t your contention tha t under this trea ty th e price of

.

codfi sh pa cked in we

would b e less on the Boston market than it i s now ?Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou mean t o say , am I trying t o ride bo th horses,

and saying tha t it would b e no cheaper t o th e consumer,and yet

would ut th e fresh- fi sh men out of b usmess'

?

Mr. ONGW O RTH . No ; I am no t asking about th e consumer a t all .

I am asking whether th e price of codfi sh packed in ice on th e Bostonmarket would b e less if this trea ty w ere passed than i t i s now ?

Mr. GA RD NER . Th e price of codfi sh varies so much from time totime tha t it w ill require averages , which have been prepared byMr.

Carro ll,to answer that question . I will answer - it now by readi ng

y ou wha t th e New England Fish Exchange says . Tha t i s an exchange

a t T Wharf in Boston,dea ling , I think , exclusively in fresh fi sh . t

says :A t a meeting of th e directors of th e New England Exch ange ,

h eld th is day , on

motion , duly seconded ,it was voted :

Tha t th e New England Fish Exch ange wi ll work wi th Gloucester in i t s effort tocontinue th e present duty on fi sh . We , th e undersigned fi sh dea lers of Boston , pro

test aga inst th e free entry of fi sh into th e U ni ted States , b elieving it will seriouslyaffect , if not wh olly destroy , th e fish ing industry of th e New England States .

Tha t,coupled with th e evidence whi ch I for o t t o brin out from

the captains thi s morning , shows tha t th e fres - fi sh p eo e are j ustas m

l

uch invo lved in a desire t o defea t this tre a ty as t e sa lt—fi sheo e .plvii. LO NGWORTH . Then

,I want t o ask why tha t is

Mr. GA RD NER . Sup ose we ask Mr. Carro ll .Mr. LO NGWO RTH . lp am a sking for my own information . A s I

read this trade agre ement,th e duty in this country on fresh fi sh

packed in ice is three - quarters of a cent a pound .

Mr. GA RD NER . Exactly .

Mr. LC N CWO RTH . A nd in Canada it is 1 cent a pound .

Mr. GA RD NER . Exactly .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Then why would putting it on th e free listreduce th e price ?Mr. GA RD NER . Because th e profit is less than three - quarters of a

cent a o und .

Mr. O NGWO RTH . But Canada h as a high er duty b y a quarter of acent .

Mr. GA R D NER . But we do no t ship any fi sh of th e kind we are discussing into (

‘

anada,and the ir l—cent dut y on fi sh is about as much

pro te c t io n t o them as if we put a thousand cents duty on co tton inthis country . In o th er wo rds , we could no t ship into Canada underany c i rcumstances .

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/join

34 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Mr. GA RD NER . Th is"will

'

on1y take a moment . I have t o ask Mr.

Carro ll somc‘

ques tions and it will only take a second t o fi nd that .

L N' .

Here it is 33-

_l he :

‘We h ave fi gure l th at if th e American pub lic willC

c onsume p ounds of

b onele ss cod fi sli a year, th e reduc t ion in th e c os t of li vi ng b y th e W i p ing out of the

duly . and th c d es truc tion o f th e fish ing industry ,W lll b e an average of 1 cent a year

sa y ing to e ach inh ab i tant .

{STA TEMENT OF MR . THOMA S J . CARROLL.

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Carro ll , you arecgeneralmanager of the Gorton

Pew Co . ?

Mr. CA RROLL . Y es,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . A nd you are president of the bo ard of trade ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Carro ll , y ou have known all about the fi sh

business in Bo ston since your boyho od ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es , sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . A nd your father before y ou ?Mr. CA RROLL . Y e s

,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Was your father a fisherman ?

Mr. CA RROLL . Y es .

Mr. GA RD NER . How did h e me e t his de a th ?Mr. CA RROLL . He was drowned on Georges .

Mr. GA RD NER . Fishing ?Mr. CA RR OLL . When I was a baby ; y es , sir .

Mr. GA RD NER . How did your bro ther mee t h is de a th ?Mr. CA RROLL . Th e same way .

Mr. GA RD NER . He was drowned on Georges ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . A t wha t po int in your history do es your knowledgeof fishing begin ? A t wha t age did y ou to work ?Mr. CA RROLL . Wh en I came ou t of scho o l I w as 1 1 y e ars of age ,

and I went t o work on a fi s h wharf in Gloucester. Tha t was thetime when my bro ther was drowned , and we h ad no one e lse t o support the family ,

and I had to come out and do What I could .

Mr. GA RD NER . A nd you have been all this time in Glo ucesterMr. CA RROLL . Ever since ; yes , sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou are one of the most succe ssful men in Gloucester ?

Mr. CA RROLL . We llMr. GA RD NER . Y ou are he ld to b e—one of the ablest men . What

sa lary are you ge tting now ?Mr. CA RROLL . Five thousand do llars a year.

Mr. GA R D NER . A nd tha t a fter an entire life time s ent in the

business . Y ou are the man who is brought forward y the menwho are your com e t itors

, the independents , and the wicked“ fi sh

trust ,”t o present t is matter ?

Mr. CA RROLL . Y es,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Carro ll , I want you to te ll this commi ttee as

t o the rofi ts in the fishing business .

Mr. A RROLL . May I say just one word myse lf ?Mr. GA RD NER . Y es . I should like to ha ve Mr. Carro ll make his

own sta tement before I ask h im any questions .

REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 35

Mr. CA RROLL . I want ed t o correct a wrong impression . I wish tosay t o the committee that I stand square ly with Ca

Thomas in everything h e sa id,abso lutely . What I to ld i fr. Gardner

was this : Tha t th e introduction of fresh fi sh into this country woulddo me persona lly very little harm. But I do sa y tha t it will do theindustry as a who le lo ts of harm ; and for that rea son I am aga inst it ,abso lutely .

Mr. L O NGW O RTH . ill you please expla in that t o me ? I do no t

understand thatMr. CA RRO LL . A s best, I can

,Mr. Longworth . (P ardon me for

calling y ou b y name . ) It means that th e T wharf fresh- fi sh industrywill b e thrown open t o t h e Canadian ve sse ls , with their cheaper labor,cheaper co st of production ,

and lower standard of living . Ne itherCap t . Thomas no r any o ther man who goes out of Gloucester can

compe te with them. They are go ing t o come in,and they are going

t o bring in more fi sh—there is no question about it—when th e dutyis taken off. They are go ing t o come t o our markets . We can no t

go t o theirs under any conside ra t io n ,duty or no duty . That is

going t o mean tha t. under cert a in conditions,when there is wha t we

call a “

glut”of fish—that is , a b ig catch in one day

—th e price willgo down . Fresh fi sh

,be ing a perisha b le a rticle . sells in acco rdance

With th e supply mo re than th e demand . O f course th e demandcomes in

, t oo , but there will b e so many more fi sh that t h e pricepaid t o men like Mr. Thomas is go ing down . Y o u understand

,

gentlemen,tha t if it g o e s down a qua rt er o r a ha lf cent a p ound , it is

a serious matt er t o this man,becaus e h e might have in a week’

s

catch pounds . L e t us sa y it go es: down t o h im ha lf a cent apound . Tha t cuts down th e earning s of his vessel

,his percentag e ,

and his share of t h e p rofi ts o f t h e voy ag e .

Th e CHA IRMA N . The du t y is a quart e r of a cent ?Mr. GA RD NER . Tli ree—qu art e rs of a ce nt a pound .

The CHA IRM A N . Th re e - quart e rs of a c -=n t a poun d

Mr. CA RRO LL . Three—quart e rs of a ce nt a p ound now . But a s Ilook at it , reg ardle ss of What th e du ty is now

,the

“

fact that it willb e on th e free l i st

,and th e a dditional number of p ounds of fish

coming in are go ing t o pu t it down a ce rtain amount . That is theide a . The re is duty enough now t o kee p them out . If vou takeit Off

,they come in

,an d d own g o

e s t h e price .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Y ou s ay that the market is now pro te ctedagainst Canadian fisherme n ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es . sir.

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . By three - quart ers of a cent a pound dut y ?Mr. CA RROLL . Y es , sir.

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . An d you say they would try to ge t possessionof the Boston marke tMr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir; th

e y w ill come in with our fishe rmen .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Y ou say ,a lso

,that our fi shermen will never

attempt t o capture. the Canadian market ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Oh . no ,

no ; ab so lut elv no t .

Mr. LONGWO RTH . Why no t ?

Mr. CA RR OLL . Be cause ours is the b ig marke t,and the irs is the

small marke t . Ours is a marke t,we will say ,

of people ;and the irs is a marke t of e ight or nine million people . They can

produce more than the ir marke t can take . They are nearer the

fishing grounds , and th ev can run right in home and land the ir fi sh .

36 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

U nder no circumstances would our men ever go in t o compe te for

the irmarke t .

0

Mr. LO N C WO RTH . How b ig i s th e Canadi an fishing flee t as com

pared with ours ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . The Canad i an fishing flee t i s no t as large when youcome t o take into considera tion the b ig ve sse ls . I can not give the

sta tistics , gentlemen,be cause I left all of tha t w i th Mr. Mi ller. But

the Lunenburg flee t—th e

“ bankers ,”

so ca lled—i s qui te large . It iscomposed of some thing o ve r 100 ve sse ls , I think . They are all whatthey ca ll 9 9 - ton vesse ls ; tha t is t o say ,

about 100 tons .

Mr. MCCA LL . D o the Canadians have any surp lus‘

of fresh fi sh to

dump on ourmarke t when they happen t o make a b ig ca tch ?

Mr. CA RROLL . Fresh fi sh ? No,Si r; be cause th e do no t fo llow the

fresh- fi sh industry very much . But I contend t a t they W i ll whenthey take th e duty off

,because t o—day th e duty on fresh fi sh i s a

great deal higher than it is on sa lt fi sh ,in thi s respect : It i s th e same

actua l duty, three—quarters o f a cent a pound , but th e salt fi sh haveshrunk . In o ther words , a thousand pounds of fresh fi sh , as caught ,would b e pra ctica lly 500 pounds of th e sa lted fi sh . So

_

, you see,

there is a saving for th e Canadian . He go es and sa lts h i s fi sh . Ifh e did no t , he would b e paying on th e same basis ,

w e will say , a centand a ha lf duty on th e fresh fi sh . D o you catch th e po int I wi sht o make ?Mr. MCCA LL . I do . It seems t o me , then , that th e Canadian

could no t afford t o bring in fresh fi sh, even if we took off the three

quarters of a cent a pound duty , be cause wha t y o u have sa id justnow shows tha t h e could manufacture that fi sh into sa lt fi sh and

practically save a cent and a ha lf a pound .

Mr. CA RR O LL . No ; pardon me . There are time s when th e freshfi sh market is high . Th e fre sh—fi sh market varies from day to d ay .

It is up to—day and perhaps down to - morrow . Th e sa lt—fi sh marketis more steady . Sometimes Capt . Thomas wi ll come in and get $4

a hundred for his haddo ck some times more . A t o ther times he

might come in and ge t a do llar a hundred , according t o th e catch .

There is no sta ted price for fresh fi sh . Th ey have t o take what isgiven t o them on T wharf by th e dea lers ; and they have go t t o sellthem or e lse take them back home or come down and se ll them to

us in Gloucester,to b e split and salted .

Th e grea t danger of taking off th e duty on fre sh fi sh is somethingtha t h a s no t been brought ou t a t all. W ha t w e fear down in Glouoester on tha t po int is tha t they will ge t a flee t of be am trawlers fromthe o ther side of th e w a ter—from England . Tha t is a new w ay of

fishing . There are a lo t of beam traw le rs o ve r in England tha t canb e brought in to Canada cheaply

,and o p e ra t ed from th ere . and take

o ssession o f th e T—Wh arf marke t , because th e y bring in lo t s of fi sh .

h ey do no t need any bait a t all. Th ey W ill come in and take thismarke t . We can no t do tha t , because w e w o uld h a ve t o go over and

p ay an enormous dutyr I do no t know jus t. wha t,but I think about

Mr. LO NCWO RTII. I see th a t. the figure s we have here show that offresh fi sh of all kinds w e exp o rt-cd into (

‘anada last y e ar more than

pounds .

Mr. GA RRO LI I think a gre a t de a l o f tha t w a s up on th e lakes .

RECIPRO C ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 37

Mr. LONGWO RTH . Tha t is wha t I w ant to ask you . How much ofthat is cod ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Very , very little . I should say less than 1 p er cent ;

a reat dea l less than tha t .

r. LO NGWO RTH . That includes fresh - wa ter fi sh ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

, sir. Of th e deep - sea fi s h,no thing goes into

Canada .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Y ou say there is practica lly no thing of tha tex ort ed into Canada ?

r. CA RRO LL . Practica lly no thing .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . D oes tha t include she llfish of all kinds ?Mr. LO NGWORTH . No . It includes fresh—wa ter fi sh

,mackerel , h al

ibut , sa lmon,eels , sme lts , and all o ther fi sh .

Mr . GA RD NER . O ysters ?Mr. LONGWO RTH . No t a ccording t o this list .

Mr. CA RR O LL . If you w ill le t me make ano ther sta tement, gentle

men, I should like t o expla in th e situation here . There seems t o b e a

little difference of opinion as t o the conditions in Gloucest erh no t onlyin Gloucester

,but in th e who le New England fisheries . We have

them all back of us . This is no t a Gloucestermeasure by any means,

gentlemen . Mr. Gardner h as to ld you about the Providence Bo ard ofrade and th e New Eng land Fish Exchange , Who are the re a l fi shdealers in Gloucester. Y ou will b e to ld b y—and—b y tha t the BostonFish Bureau h as vo ted aga inst us . Th e Boston Fish Bureau are no t

fi sh dealers .

Mr. GA RD NER . Of Bo ston, you mean . Y ou sa id Gloucester.

Mr. CA RRO LL . Th e Bo ston Fish Bure au,I say ,

are no t fi sh dea lers .

Mr. GA RD NER . But y ou sa id,

th e New England Fish Exchange ,ofGloucester.

”

Mr. CA RROLL . Of Bo ston ; y es . They are th e two that you read .

In addition t o that,we have th e who le State of Ma ine

,with one

exception . YVe have Cap t . Nicho lson,of Bucksport

,here—th e

largest dea ler in th e Sta te ofMa ine—who w ill tell you th e same thing .

We have go t Vina lhaven—we have go t every dealer there is .

What I want t o say is that there are four dist inct propo sitions herein the way of people interest ed in fi sh .

First,there are th e fishermen

,represented by these capta ins .

These men are unalterably opposed to a reduction in th e duty on anykind of fi sh at all

,because th e raw materia l of these o ther gentlemen

who want free fi sh is the ir finished product , and they can no t com e t e

with Canadians on account of th e high cost of their vessels , suc i as

has been shown y ou .

Then there come th e men on shore—what we call th e packers , fi shcleaners

,and all—as stated by Mr. Brown . I think they are d ivided

on this question,tho ugh no t a t all on th e ma in ques t ion . I

. thmkthey are unan imously aga inst t h e treaty ; but they

.

are d i vided ,because they think tha t if they c ould get free green fi sh in here , and a

duty on th e manufactured product,C anada would send h er fi sh

_

i_

n

here to b e manufactured down in our town of Gloucester. Tha t 18Where they stand .

Then there comes ano ther class,some of whom are represented

here to—day b y wha t we ca ll shippers . Tha t is,they are manufac

turers who do no t own vesse ls . They are no t interested , of course ,in the price of fi sh to th e fisherman

,except to buy it a t a re asonab le

38 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

rice . They are all honorable gentlemen , good fri ends of mine .

h ey differ with me in this respe c t ‘ but they are ent l tled to the ir

opinion .

Then comes th e vessel owners , of whom I ama representa ti ve . I

have telegrams here from every vessel owner in th e ci ty of Glouces

t er,every man wh o owns one vesse l or a do zen ,

or a part.

of a vessel,saying : Save me from this ? ”

Some of th e mos t. pa thet i c te legramsI ever saw

, gentlemen,are ri g ht there—they came t o me yesterday

from men who rea lize tha t i t means the ir destructi on .

We are against th e reduction of th e duty on any art of th e industry because we are interested in th e who le of i t . I op e I have madetha t po int clear. Th e vessel owners are unanimously aga inst theth e tre a ty in any form. Th e shippers would like t o have free greenfi sh

,b u t a duty on their manufactured product . Th e fishermen are

opposed to any change , b ecause the ir fini shed product i s th e o therman

’s raw material .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . D o any of the vesse ls in which vou are interestedengage in bringing herring to the market ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es,sir.

Mr. HA RR ISO N . D o they catch them or b uy them ?Mr. CA RRO LL . They go down there , as Mr. Gardner expla ined this

morning , w ith crews from Gloucester. U nder th e tre aty of 1 8 18

they have th e righ t t o employ Newfoundlanders t o assist them in

securing the fi sh . The rate of wag e that they have t o ay is regulated by th e Government , which say s that it must no t e less than

p er barre l . There is an industry, gentlemen ,

of which therewill b e nothing left .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . D o I understand that they ca tch herring or buythem ?Mr. CA R ROLL . They go down there with a crew from Gloucester,

and they have th e right to ship Newfoundlanders as the ir crew .

They sign articles,and they become members of th e crew . That is

authorized b y the U ni ted Stat e s Go vernment,and b y th e Newfound

land Government as we ll . Inste ad of taking these men,say

,a t the

rate of $25 or $30 a month,the ir compensa t ion is a barre l and

the ir food . Thev keep them on bo ard the vesse l wh ile the vesse l isthere .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . I suppose I fa il t o understand y ou . I ask y ou

whether they catch herring or whe ther they b uy them and thenbring them back here ?Mr. CA RROLL . I will t ry t o expla in that aga in ,

sir. They go downthere all fi tted out w i th nets for ca t ching he rring . It take s a largecrew t o cat ch a cargo of herring w ith ne t s . A ll th e crew that theytake from Glouceste r is crew enough t o work the vesse l—t o managet he vesse l . D own there they ship a crew of Newfo undlanders on

the ir art icles ; and the y sh ip them in this w a y—tha t the y w ill bringherring t o that vesse l on wh ich th ey are shipped as crew

,and their

compensat i on i s t o b e per barre l . Now, y ou can c a ll it buying

or hi ring , wh i chever it is .

Mr. McC A L L . Tha t is , they hire them t o ca t ch the fi sh ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y e s

,sir.

Mr. MCCA LL . P aying them certa in w ages .

Mr. GA R D NER . The transac tion is a perfec t ly cle ar one .It has

be e n the sub j e c t o f in t ernational dispute for years . It is perfectly

REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 39

obvious tha t if you need a crew of 50 men t o se t aflo t of nets allover th e mouths of arms of th e b ay , you can no t support 50men

on board of your ship and t ake them from Glouce ster to the banksand keep them there until the fishing is good . Y ou h av e g o t to godown W i th a small crew ; and then

,when the fishing is good ,

y ou

employ a large number o f men to s e t out tho se nets for y ou . Th e

thin h as be en gone o ver a thousand times,and it h as been decided

by 516 U nited Sta te s Government and confirmed by t he Internat ional Tribuna l a t The Hague . It is perfe ctly cle ar. It is the ca tchof Glouce ster fisheries . Y ou can no t look into th e question o f th e

credentia ls and the na tivit y and the na turaliza tion papers of e achman of your crew .

Ir. CA RRO LL . I made a s t a t ement a moment ago which I shouldlike to back up ,

if I c an . I sa id a minute ago tha t th e industrywould b e w iped out ; and I w ill te ll y ou why . If these Canadianvessels have the right to go t o Newfoundland

,and g e t herring and

bring them in free of dut y ,as we fee l they w ill under this tre a ty . th ev

can go down there and be a t us to de ath .

For instance,w e chartered a Nova Sco tia vess e l to bring some

fi sh up for us awhile a g o ; and w e paid $ 4 7 5 a month for th e vessel,

crew, provisions , and all. On o ne of our own vesse ls

,under th e same

condit i ons,th e co s t of th e labor alone would b e a trifle over $400,

according to th e st a temen t made b y Capt . P eoples this morning ,whi ch is abso lute ly true . How long can we do tha t ?A ga in ,

tha t is a very import an t ii i dus try,becaus e w e have a large

class of men wh o do no t do a s Capt . Thomas does~go the y ear

round . They fi sh in th e summer. Th ere is no thing do ing in the irline i n th e Winter excep t t o g o t o Newfoundland for l erring . A nd

in the case of a good ,smart man like Capt . P eo les

,wh o ge t s $ 100

t o $ 125 a month,it is up t o h im t o go down to i unenburg and ge t

$50 or $60 a month,or w alk th e stree t s a t Gloucester.

Mr. HILL . Y ou represent th e fi rm of Gorton - Pew Co .

‘

7

l\lr. CA RRO LL . Th e Gorton- P ew Fish Co . ; y e s , sir.

Mr. HILL . W ha t is your t o t a l ou tput ? Y ou need no t st ate itexactly ; just in round figures .

Mr. CA RRO LL . We do about a three -million - do llar business . I can

no t tell you the number of pounds .

Mr. HILL . How much of tha t is American fi sh ? D o you importany ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . This yearw e import-cd a lo t ; b u t in a norma l y e arMr. HILL . A bout h ow much have you import ed this year

”

8

Mr . CA RRO LL . W e imported about pounds of fi sh th i s

Mr. HILL . Was tha t fresh or sa lted ?Mr . CA RROLL . Sa lt-cd .

Mr. HILL . Sa lted ?Mr. CARRO LL . Y es , sir.

Mr. HILL . Salted in Canada ?Mr. CARRO LL . Y es , sir ; in Newfoundland .

Mr. GAR D NER . That was herring , was it no t ?Mr. CA RRO LL . No ; codfi sh .

Mr. HILL . Will you t ell me why Canada charges a h igher rateof duty on fi sh imported into Canada than the U ni ted States chargeson the same fi sh imported into the U nited States ?

4 0 REC IPROC ITY W ITH C A N A D A .

Mr. CA RRO LL . No , sir ; I can no t answer th at quest lon I have

o ften wondered why it was .

Mr.HILL

. D o you no t suppose i t i s to pro tect them againstAmerican fishermen ?

Mr. CA RRO LL .It would appe ar so on t he l ace of It ; but I have

o ft en wondered why it was .

Mr. IIILL . Why should they do i t ? Whv should there b e a h igher

duty a cent a pound ?Mr. LO NGWORTH . A quarter of a cent .

Mr.HILL . It is three - quarters of a cent h igher.

Mr. CA RRO LL . I could no t te ll you ,S ir.

Mr.HILL

. They know the ir b usmess up there , do they no t , aboutas we ll as we know ours ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . I do no t doubt that .

Mr. GA RD N ER . May I interrupt y ou and answer th at question ?

Mr. HILL . I shall b e glad t o have anybody answer It .

Mr. GA RD NER . It h as always been supposed O

th a t they (lld It in

order t o give them a basis for trading on in a reci proca l agreement .

HILL . But their regular duty is a cent a pound on fi sh importedinto Canada ; and our regular duty , which these peo le say they are

sa tisfied w ith,is three - quarters of a cent . Why i s t e difference ?

Mr. CA RROLL . I can no t answer you tha t , excep t in thi s way : Ifour cla im is right tha t we can no t compete w ith them in our own

country,w e certa inly can no t go up into Canada and compe te with

them in the irs .

Mr. L O NGW O RTI—I. I understood y o u t o say tha t even if Canada hadfree fi sh ,

we would no t have a marke t there .

Mr. CA RRO LL . W e could have theirmarket if we could get it ; butif w e can no t compe te with C anada in our own country

,h ow can we

compe t e with them u in the ir country ?Mr. LO NGW O RTH . I

punderstood you t o say tha t th e Canadian

marke t'

was so trifling in comparison w ith ours tha t if the y took off

their duty , if Canada h ad free fi sh,we would no t a tt empt to t ake

theirma rke t away ?Mr. C \ RRO LL . We migh t do a little sa lt fi sh business

,perhaps

,up

in the C anadian Northwest .

Mr. LO NGW O RTII. I am only speaking of fresh fi sh .

Mr. CA RRO LL . I do no t believe we would do any even then . P er

haps up a long Mo ntreal we might do a lit tle . I do no t doubt thatthere might b e a little done there .

Mr. HILL . May I ask you one more que s t ion . Mr. Carro ll ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,s ir.

Mr. HILL . With th e Canadian dut y a t a c ent a pound, and our duty

a t three - quarters of a cent a pound,wo uld i t make any difference

wha t ever w ith th e trade re la tions of th e two countries if we took offthree - quarters of a c ent

,or th e who le of o urs

, and they took ofl’three

quarte i 's of a cent from the irs, and le ft th e s ame differenc e ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . We would then b e. in jus t th e s ame position w e are innO \V .

Mr. l-Ii LL . Ex ac tly . Then if we made fi sh free and Canada reducedh er

'

duty to a qu art er of a cent a pound,w e would bo th b e in th e same

po s i t io n tha t w e a re now ?

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/join

4 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. CA RROLL . I should say yes , sir—no t without reference t o the

tariff, but it is contro lled by th e law of supply and demand .

Mr. FORD NEY. Then ,if you ge t an overproduct i on of fi sh from

Canada ,of. course the p rice goes down ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Tha t is it .

Mr. FO RD NEY . That is as pla in as A ,B

, C t o th e man wh o couldno t hear.

0

Mr. GA RD NER . Th e gentleman from Connect i cut was a ski ng whythey can no t come in and p ay the ir thre e

—quarters of a cent a pound .

It is very o bvious that they can no t p ay three - quarters of a cent apound duty and still have a profit , i f on our vesse ls the profit 18 lessthan three - quarters of a cent a pound .

Now,Mr. Carro ll , I should like to ask you wha t the average profit

was during th e last ye ar—which

,mind you , gentlemen

,i s one of the

best we have everhad in our history . Wh a t wa s th e average profit

per pound on codfi sh brought into th e U nited Sta te s ?Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Y ou should ask him first what the average pri ce

was during th e last y e ar. He sa id it went as high as I wa iftto know What th e average price w as .

Mr. CA RRO LL . The average price ? They st art ed in,in th e spring ,

a t three do llars and a quarter, as I remember, and they s t ayed alongthere until away into the fa ll , when ,

on account of b ad w ea ther on

th e Banks—and the se cap tains know that in th e month o f O ct oberthey only h ad three fishing day s r th e supply fell off

,so tha t the

price went up accordingly .

Now , gentlemen,I am go ing t o make ano ther statement t o vou.

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . That is , p er hundred pounds ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir.

In a ye ar like last ye ar free fi sh would no t have done us one bit ofharm. I am spe aking now of 19 10

,no t 1 909

,t h e y e ar Mr. Gardner

spoke about , because in that ye ar on a ccount of b ad we ather therewas a shortage in the ca tch . But in 1 909 , when we h ad more codfi sh

than we have h ad for many ,many years

,free fi sh would have de

moralized us so tha t our vesse ls would no t have come out any wherenear who le .

I have a statement here , which is abso lute ly true,tha t I should

like t o refer to in reply t o Mr. Gardner’s question . In 1 909 (a banner

year for us in th e catch of fi sh ) our own vesse ls landed aboutpounds of fi sh . The ir ne t earnings w ere If

they h ad sold th at catch a t a quarter of a cent a pound less theywould have lo st That i s t o s ay , our profits on our vesselswere less than a quarter of a c en t a pound in tha t y e ar.

Mr. ELLIS . A nd what w a s y o ur aggreg a te profitMr. CA RRO LL . $33 . 5 7R. V-[ h en I say po unds of fi sh ,

I mean codfi sh . There is a lo t more herring than t ha t,which I

included in the who leMr. L O NGW O RTH . Is that fre s h fi sh ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . That is sa lt fi sh .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . It is all salt fi sh ?Mr. CA RROLL . Tha t is fi sh

,some o f W lllt h we took in fresh and

salted ,as Capt . Thomas expla ined this morning . He go es out

and brings in some fi sh fre sh and some sa lted . If the market isgood fo r fresh fi sh

,h e lands them in Bo ston . If it is no t O'ood we

ge t th em to salt .

b

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 4 3

Mr. FORD NEY . My friend , may I ask you ano ther question ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir.

Mr. FO RD NEY . When your profit was but in the who leear, or less than a quarter of a cent a pound ,

if the Canadian catchhad been in ro ort i on to your catch

,and there h ad been no duty

11 on that fi sfi)

,t ey would have driven you out of th e market ; would

t ey no t ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es,sir; abso lute ly .

Mr. FORD NEY . Y ou simply would have h ad t o go out of business ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir.

Mr. FORD NEY . And Canada would have su lied us wi th fi shduring the time when the catch was very p lent if

ifil)

?

Mr. CA RRO LL . That is true,sir. That is abso lute ly true .

Mr. MCCA LL . D o you say ,Mr. Carro ll

,that that was one of your

best ye ars ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir; in th e number of pounds of fi sh landed .

Mr. GA RD NER . W'

hich year ?Mr. CA RR OLL . 1 9 09 .

Mr. MCCA LL . A nd how was it as t o price ?Mr . CA RRO LL . The price averaged about three t o three and a quar

ter dollars a hundred pounds for sa lt fi sh—sa lt codfi sh .

Mr. MCCA LL . “v

as tha t price abnorma lly high or low ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Tha t was a good price for the quantity , b ut it wasabnormally low . It was lower than it h ad been for —we ll , the yearbefore it was only a trifle higher than tha t ; b ut a few ye ars ba ck itwent a little higher—ha lf a cent , perhaps , or three - quarters of a centa ound higher.

MCCA LL . W as th e price tha t year unusua lly low ?Mr. CAR RO LL . Compared w ith th e year before my reco llection is

that it was about th e same ; perhaps an e ighth ,as we ca ll it , less .

But it was lower than the average ye ars ; yes , sir.

Mr. GA R D NER . How much did tha t figure out a pound—three and

a half a quinta l ?Mr. CA RRO LL . I was giving it by th e p ound .

Mr. GA RD N ER . Three cen ts and a ha lf ?Mr. CA RROLL . Three t o three and a quarter cents ; yes .

Mr. GA RD NER . W ha t would th e re ta iler charge for tha t ?Mr. CA RRO LL . It depends upon wha t style it is put up in . There

are a grea t many styles . We have what we ca ll th e abso lutely boneless fi sh

,in which

Mr. GA RD NER . How abou t th e cheapest ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Th e cheapest codfi sh ?Mr. GA RD NER . Th e cheapest re ta iler. Wha t did h e charge ?Mr. CA RRO LL . P er p ound ? A bout 10 cents .

Mr. GA R D NER . A nd wha t did th e most expensive one charge ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Fifteen cents . No ; there are some tha t are a li ttle

higher ; but for tha t grade of fi sh tha t I was speaking about , 15 centsMr. CLA RK . How much fi sh do es it take to make a pound of thi s

bone less stuffMr. CA RRO LL . Twe lve hundred pounds of fresh fi sh , caught right

out of the wa ter, makes 3 1 1 pounds of bone less fi sh , put up saltMr. CLA RK . Y ou get from $3 to for the fresh fi sh ?

Mr. CA RROLL . No ,sir ; sa lted fi sh . I thought you asked me how

much it would shrink .

4 4 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. CLA RK . No . Wh a t I want to fi nd out is , if.

a pound of boneless fi sh sells for 10 cents how much raw materi a l in vo lume do theyput into that poundMr. CA RRO LL .

I would have t o think tha t over for a minute .

What do you mean by “raw materia l ” ?

Mr. GA RD NER . May I int errugt for a moment ?

Mr. CLA RK . Y es,sir. I will e obliged t o you if you W i ll tell me

that .

Mr. GA RD NER . In th e first place , when th e fresh fi sh comes in i t is

full of water. Very often that is so ld as it is ; th e who le fi sh i s sold ,dried , and sa lted by th e reta iler. In the case of th e speci alty whi chhe puts up , th e heads are cut off and all sorts of things

.

are cut offthat fi sh and the scrapings are used for an inferi or qua li ty and thebones are extracted . Th e real comparison whi ch y ou W i sh to get

at,and which I was trying t o get at , was between a fi sh tha t comes

in fresh and the same fi sh without any specia l fancy packing that i sso ld simply as a who le fi sh . Y ou are undoubtedly fami li ar wi thwhat it looks like in the gro cery shop . Tha t is th e rea l basi s ofcomparison . Then

,by taking the difference in weight and the loss

in water you get a t the true basis of comparison .

Mr. CLA RK . Now ,just finish that up ; go on . Y ou bring that

fresh fi sh in there full of wa ter, as you say ,and you fi x it up and sell

it Who le in th e store . How much difference is there between Whatit costs originally and the sum that this fellow gets for it who sellsit at reta il ?Mr. GA RD NER . I should say it w as about tw ice as much .

Mr. CLA RK . How much will it shrink ?Mr. GA R D NER . I may b e wrong . I do no t put th e shrinkag e a t

2 t o 1,as h e do es . I think the Canadian me asurements are 157 , as

a ga inst 1 12 , a re they no t ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es . But y ou are on a different tack entirely . Y ou

sa id fresh fi sh . I never sa id salt fi sh was in th e propo rtion of2 t o 1 . I only want to know wha t h e wi shes me t o answer.

Mr. CLA RK . What I want t o fi nd out is,what is th e profit that the

gro ceryman or re t aile r makes off of these fi sh ?

Mr. CA RROLL . I can answer that right off th e reel .Mr. CLA RK . How much is it ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Twenty p er cent ; from 20 t o 25 p er cent .

Mr. CLA RK . That is no t an exo rbitant profit , is itMr. CA RRO LL . A p ackage that re ta ils fo r 15 cents sells to the

retail gro cer for 12 , and the jobber ge ts 10p er cent off of that . Thereis th e way it stands . There may b e some re ta iler who will buycheaper fi sh and ge t th e price o f th e go od fi sh : bu t I am ta lking aboutour best standard pa ckage ,

wh ich we se ll fo r 12 cents a pound t o thej obber, less 10 p er cent , which is his p rofit . The reta iler gets 15cents for that .

Mr. CLA RK . Th e who lesa le r and th e jobber and the reta iler amongthem ge t 20 p er cent

, do they ?Mr. CA RRO LL . No ; they ge t more . Th ev ge t 20 and 10.

Mr. CLA RK . Thirty ?Mr. CA RRO L L . We ll , y o u can c a ll it thirt y ,

" if y o u w ish .

mx . There a re. thre e o f them t o divid e it among , are thereno

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 4 5

Mr. CA RROLL . No , sir; no , sir ; only two . The jobber gets his 10per cent and th e retailer gets 20. There are only two .

Mr. CLARK . Th e wa y ou left it a while. ago it sounded as thoughthe

firet ailer and th e W i olesaler betw een them got about 300 p er cent

ro t .pMr. CA RROLL . I noticed tha t , b ut I did no t mean t o say that .

I

gals talking about salt fi sh and h e thought I was ta lking of fresh

Mr. GA RD NER . Now,let me ask t h e questions in my own way .

Mr. CLA RK. All right . Y ou know more about it than I do .

Mr. GA RD NER . I want t o get at th e facts .

Mr. RA ND ELL . R ight a t that po int there is one thing that I shouldto have expla ined . Y ou say the jobber pay s 12 cents for that

15—cent pa ckage and h e gets 10 er cent of that, and the other 3

cents out of the 15 cents go es t o t e reta iler ?Mr. CA RROLL . Y es

,sir.

Mr. RA ND ELL . Y ou say h e sells it for 15 cents . D o all of them sellit for 15 cents ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir.

fMr.

a

RA ND ELL . D o no t some of them sell it for 16 and some of themor 14

Mr. CA RROLL . A s a rule,they se ll it for 15 .

Mr. RA ND ELL . D o they have to se ll it for 15 cents ?Mr. CA RRO LL . They do no t have to ; no , sir.

(I

Mr.

e

CLA RK . They have a“

gentlemen’s agreement tha t they will

0 itMr. CA RRO LL . I do no t think there is any gentlemen

’

s agreementamong re ta il grocers .

Mr. CLA RK . I wi ll sta te,just for your information

,that it is claimed

here in Washington tha t one of the worst trusts in America is thi s verysame

,identica l Re tail Gro cers’

A ssocia tion . Tha t is what the eopleof this town have been cla iming for 1 2 months ; and I should fike tofind out about it , if y ou know .

Mr. CA RROLL . I do no t know abou t it, sir.

Mr. CLA RK . How do they happen t o se ll thi s package for 15 cents ?Mr. CA RROLL . They do no t , ne cessari ly .

Mr. CLA RK . I thought y ou said they did .

Mr. CA RROLL . A gre a t many manufacturers have a lis t price—a

selling price . We have a se lling price ,according to which we think a

man ought to ge t 15 cents for tha t package ; but he does no t have toet 15 cents . If he can ge t 20, h e can ,

as far as we are concerned , ore can se ll it for 12

,and we have no right to say one word to him.

Mr. CLA RK. Y ou have no t go tten as far along as the Tobacco Trusthave

,then ?

Mr. CA RROLL . No , sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . In my experience , the most cu tthroat busmess in

the worldMr. BO U TELL . Wh at does Capt . Thomas get for the fi sh that sells

finally to me for 15 cents a pound ?Mr. CA RROLL . If he brought it in salted last year ?Mr. BOU TELL . No ; if he brings it in fresh .

Mr. CA RROLL . A nd sends i t to us t o split and salt i t ? That i s theway it would come about .

4 6 RECIPBOCITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Mr.BO U TELL .

I do no t care h ow it comes about , or what happens .

I p ay 15 cents for a pound of salt fi sh . What do es Capt . Thomas get

for that salt fi sh ?Mr. CA RRO LL . In an average ye ar about 2 cents a pound, fresh .

Mr. GA RD NER . The gentleman will understand tha t if peoplebring fresh fi sh into the Boston marke t , that is , for consum tion,fresh .

If it is that kind of fi sh which is half way be tween fres and

something that is no t fresh , it probably will no t have any sale as

fresh fi sh in the Boston marke t . Le t me ask the gentleman a question here , in a way that I think w ill cle ar up the S i tuati on.

When a cargo of sa lt fi sh comes in,

‘

the fi sh is a lre ady spli t ?Mr. CA RRO LL. Y es

,sir; split and salted .

Mr. GA RD NER . It is split and salted and th e entrai ls are taken out ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y e s,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Is the he ad taken off ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . A nd the fi sh i s in the same shape as we see i t on

the flakes to dry , later, after it h as been in pickleMr. CA RRO LL . Exactly the same shape .

Mr. GA RD NER . A ll right . We w ill le ave out th e manufacturing of

the bone less fi sh . But that same fi sh,after it h as been dried on the

flakes , and aft er it h as been pickled , is so ld throughout this countryWithout any spe cial manufacture

,is it no t ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es,sir. That is the who le fi sh .

Mr. GA RD NER . In other words , you have exa ctly th e same articlethat came in ,

(“XCL pt that it h as been pickled and prepared for the

marke t ?Mr. CA RRO LL . A nd drie d .

Mr. GA RD NER . Wha t price is pa id for tha t sa lted fi sh as it comesin off t he vesse lMr. CA RROLL . That is what I sa id a minute ago . L ast year it

averaged from 3 to 3 & cents a p ound . Tha t was in 1 909 .

Mr.GA RD NER . A ll right . Now we will take th a t very same fi sh thatis no t boneless and not subj ected t o any manufacturing process at

all, but is in its orig inal sh ape , aft-er be in pickled and cured and

dried in th e sun and steamed in th e pile andput in the lo ft there , orwhatever it is . A t what price does th e reta iler se ll that ident ica l fi sh ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Tha t is a good question . There is no s t andard price

on tha t a t all. Tha t is nobody’

s brand . Tha t is j ust th e who le fi sh ,like they used to have it ye ars ago .

Mr. GA RD NER . Just as they sell apples ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir. An average price on tha t would b e 10

cents a pound .

Mr. GA RD NER . Tha t is what y ou want t o get a t .

Mr. CLA RK . How is it tha t Bro ther Boutell,here

, p ay s 1 5 cents apound for h is fi sh ?Mr. GA RD NER . But h e do es no t b uy th a t. kind of fi sh . He buys a

package of boneless codfi sh which has gone through a process ofmanufa cture .

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es , sir.

Mr. LONGWO RTI—I. Just like woo l tops , for instance .

Mr. CLA RK. I know ; b ut h e says he buy s ordinary sa lt fi sh,and

pays 1 5 cents a pound for it .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH c A N A D A . 4 7

Mr. GA RD NER . Tha t is because he is a Memb er of Congress , andthey a lways overcharg e us ; that is all.

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . He is th e origina l ultima te consumer, you

know . [Laughter. ]Mr. CLA RK . But surely h e could te ll whe ther it is bone less fi sh

or no t .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou sa id package fi sh,

” did y ou no t ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Have you g e ntlemen go t cle arly in your minds theplrocess of the thing ? I ask tha t be cause I want to have it perfe ctlyc ear.

Mr. CLA RK . We have go t the pro cess pla inly enough , but I havenot go t the profit p la inly .

Mr. BO U TELL . It looks t o me as though Capt . Thomas did no t

get h is fa ir share of this .

Mr. HILL . I can see a reason Why he doe s no t ; and I am go ing toask a question about it in a moment .

Mr. GA RD NER . He brings in fresh fi sh,sa lt fi sh

,and fi sh that are

in between th e two . Here is a man who can te ll you the price of a“ critter ”

which looks like this (exhibiting ske tch to committee ) .It looks like an inverted triangle when it come s in . It is w ithout ahead : it h as no insides ; th e only waste on it

,I think

,is the tail

,is

it not ? I mean as it comes in sa lted .

Mr. CA RRO LL . There is no w ast-e .

Mr. GA RD NER . Tha t is spre ad out on flakes and put into pickle ,and one pro cess and ano ther of curing is gone through . That isso ld at who lesa le off th e ve sse l

,we will say ,

for 3 cents . Am Icorrect ?Mr. CA RROLL . From 3 to 3 7} cents in 1909 .

Mr. GA RD NER . A fter this pro cess of curing , and so on,h as been gone

through , what is th e loss in we ight from it as it comes off th e ship ?Mr. CA RRO LL . In which condition—after it is pu t up in th e package ,

as this gentleman buys it ?Mr. GA RD NER . No no t in th e package , but as it is so ld

—th e who lefi sh

,as you ge t it a t th e corner gro cery store , hanging by th e tail from

the beams ?Mr . CA RRO LL . It would take or pounds to make 1 pound ,

approximately .

Mr. GA RD NER . In o ther words , th e shrinkage is about 33 p er cent ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir.

Mr . CLA RK . Thirty- three p er cent of would b e whi ch,added to would make cents ; and Mr. Boutell pays $ 15 a

hundred for tha t fi sh ._Wh o ge ts th e difference ?

Mr. GA RD NER . No,h e do es no t ; h e pays about 10 cents for tha t

particular fi sh .

Mr. CLA RK. He sa id h e pa id 15 .

Mr. GA RD NER . But h e pays 15 for boneless codfi sh , or packagecodfi sh .

Mr. CA RRO LL . Wh ich is an entirely different proposition .

Mr. CLA RK . Su pose h e pays 10, who gets th e di fference ?Mr. GA RD NER . n th e fi rst place , there is all the cost of curing,

pickling , handling , and shipment , and all th e o ther profit comes in in

the middlemen—th e jobber and th e Who lesaler and the reta i ler.

4 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. CA RRO LL . There is th e b ox ,and th e labor, and t h e salt , and th e

shrinkage . Th e reta iler do es no t ge t any t oo much in tha t propos1tion .

If we go t half a cent a ound on it—and I am speaking in the

presence o f s ome gentlemen w 0 do no t feel t oo k indly t o me

Mr. CI A RK . I w ant t o fi nd out this : Sena tor R eed Smo o t statedo ve r here , wh en they h ad th e tariff bill up and kept hammering on the

re po s ition ,that th e average reta il profit in th e U ni ted Stat es was

iie tween three and four hundred p er cent on merchand i se generally .

I d id no t b e lie ve it then and I do no t believe it now ,and I want some

evid e nce t o back up my Opinion .

Mr. CA RRO LL . It is no t so down our way ,s ir, because th e reta il

gro cers are no t progpering w ith us

,and they would if they go t any

where near that .

7e figure that if a reta i l gro cer gets 20 p er cent

profit on our goods h e is do ing pretty well . Y o u would think hewould ge t more than that o n this who le fi sh tha t w e are t alkmg about ;but h e h as more or less shrinkage .

Mr. GA RD NER . I should like t o ask you a question . D o you not

ship a great dea l of fi sh t o Porto R ico ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es , sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . It is one of yourmo st pro fi table markets,is it no t ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Well,a t times , y es , when there are no t t o o many

down there . Y ou see,we do some consignment business down there,

and some t imes w e g et a pretty good marke t .

Mr. GA RD NER . U nder this trea ty , Canadian fi sh would b e t akenove r t o P o rto P ico

,w ould it no t ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es,sir.

Mr. GA R D NER . A nd what would happen t o your trade ?Mr. CA R RO LL . It would b e in th e same condition tha t it would b e

in this count ry .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou would no t expect to se ll ano ther pound of fi sh

in Porto l i ico ,wo uld y ou

Mr. CA RROLL . We could still do some consignment business t here .

‘Ne w ould s end them down there on consignment for awhile . Whenth e returns w e go t were th e same as th e Nova Sco tia man go t for h is .

we would stop se lling t o Porto Rico ,because of th e old st ory tha t I

to ld you awhile ago—in th e first place

,th e ext ra cost

,and all that

sort of thing .

Th e CHA IRM A N . Mr. Hill h as been wa iti ng for some t ime to ask

you a question .

Mr. CA RRO LL . All right , sir.

Mr. HILL . Mr. Carro ll , your people are fi sh buy ers and fi sh ca rriers,are th e no t ?

Mr. CARRO LL . Y es , sir.

Mr. HILL . Y ou own ve ss e ls which y ou send down and secure fi shwith ,

and b ring them to Bo s ton ?

Mr. CA R RO LL . Y es,sir.

Mr. HILL . A nd you manufac t ure ?Mr. CA RRO LL . We bring them t o Glouc e s ter

,n i o s t-lv.

Mr. HILL . Y ou have the adv an t age Of a. p ro t ec tedi

ll l tl r‘li e t in your

manufac tured p roduct ?Mr. CA R RO LL . Y e s

,s ir.

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/join

50 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

out of wha t he is do ing than wha t h e would b e do ing then . I standw ith Capt . Thoma s on everything he sa id . His interests are i denti calw ith mine

,exrcp t ing on this

po in t tha t I am a manufacturer in

addition t o be ing a producer ; t a t is th e ide a . Cap t . Thomas W O U Id

never do it, gent lemen—never. NO live man in Glouce ster would do

it . He w ill make more money th e o ther way . Capt . Thomas doesWe ll . He makes good money . Y ou gentlemen this morning thoughtthis industry w a s no t profitable . The se men make a lo t of mone

That man h as nine chi ldren living , and tw o de ad . He h as broug tthem up so tha t they are a credit to him and t he city

,and h e is fa irly

we ll off. But h e do es no t ge t any b ounty . We do no t ask for it,

e ither. I want to put myse lf on record there . We do no t want anybounty . We do no t ask for it .

Mr. GA RD NER . Wha t is th e Canadian bounty ?Mr. CA RR O LL . Th e Canadian boun ty is th e in teres t on wha t they

ca ll th e Ha lifax awardMr. GA RD NER . I w ill put in th e figures on th e subj e ct of the

bounty .

Mr. CA RRO LL . In addition t o tha t they ge t subsid ized co ld—storageplants , so tha t they can b uy the ir ba it cheap er than any Gloucesterman can go down there and buy it

,and the license

Mr. CLA RK . 1 909 was a year when you made an extraordinaryca tch

,was it no t ?

Mr. CA RRO LL . A good ca tch of codfi sh ; y es , s ir.

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou made tha t year ?Mr. CA RRO LL . On the vessels ?Mr. CLA RK . Y es .

Mr. CA RRO LL . I do no t want t o le ave any wrong impression .

Mr. CLA RK . Tha t is wha t I asked . In 1 9 10you h ad a sma ll catch ?Mr, CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir.

Mr. CLA RK . How much did you make tha t year ?Mr. CA RR O LL . We do no t know . We will no t know until A pril .Mr. CLA RK . Why do you no t figure it out ?Mr

:CA RRO LL . I did no t know th e question would b e asked . Our

year Is no t up .

Mr. CLA RK . Did you make more in 19 10 than you di d in 1 909 ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es

,sir.

Mr. CLA RK . Then ,a lthough th e ca tch was smaller, you made more

moneyMr. CA RRO LL . I did no t understand you . 1 9 09 was our good year.

I do no t know just Wha t th e profit in 1 9 10wa s .because our year ends

the first ofA pril ; but I know it was no t as goo d as the o ther, possibly,because our vessels did no t ca tch the fi sh .

Mr. GA RD NER . May I have the a ttention of th e g entleman fromConnecti cut (Mr. Hi ll ) This Treasury decision refersonly to herring.

Mr. CA RROLL . Pardon me—codfi sh .

Mr. GA RD NER . Well , I mean, practica lly speaking , it refers only

to th e trea ty coast ofNewfoundland , which is a very sma ll art of it.Tha t 0 era t i on of Capt . Carter’

s was no t erformed by a loucestervessel , ut by a Boston vessel . Everybody knows tha t th e decisionwas very quest ionable in Capt . Carter’

s case . The Governmenthas appea led i t to th e courts ; and in addition th e Treasurv h as issuedinstructions which will prevent it in th e fu ture

, which“

have beenaccepted by my consti tuents .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 51

Mr. HILL . I think , Mr. Gardner, tha t you will concede tha t if tha tdecision stands , th e situation to - day is far worse than i t would b e ifthe market were entirely free and open .

Mr. GA RD NER . A s far as herring coming from the Bay of Islandsconcerned , that does no t effect anything .

Mr. CA RROLL . No t at all ; not a t all.Mr. GA RD NER . Now I should like t o ask Mr. Carro ll two or three

questions . For instance , let me ask you what duties ou will p ayon your supplies , your raw material

,if what you pro uce is to b e

free ? Tell us about th e sa ils and cordage and hooks and paint ando il, and so ou—the duty on those things .

The CHA IRMA N . I do no t think that i s worth whi le . He can te ll usWhat h e uses, but h e need no t go into th e duties themse lves .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou can look up th e figures yourselves, of course .

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . Y ou use dutiable articles, many of whi ch you

im ort . Tell us some of them.

Ir. CA RRO LL . Hooks , sa ils , netsMr. GA RD NER . Seines , es ecially . A mackerel seine is worth a

thousand do llars , or somewhere around there,is it not ?

Mr. CA RROLL . Y es ; yes .

Mr. GA RD NER . Those are very expensive things .

Mr. LONGWORTH . I want t o know why you can not buy hooks inthis country ?Mr. CA RROLL . I do not kn ow

,but I do know that they send them

ri ht through in bond .

r. CA RROLL . We have t o p ay a duty on them.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Why are they no t made in this country ?Mr. CA RROLL . The hooks that th e fishermen like are made in

E land . Capt . Thomas, where are those hooks made

, mostly ?ap t . THOMA S . Th ey are made in Grimsby .

Mr. CA RRO LL . They are made in Grimsby,England . They have

to have a certain kind of hook , or they will no t get the fi sh .

0

Mr. GA RD NER . Wha t can you tell us about the preparati ons beingmade b Nova Sco tiaWMr. A RK . Mr. Gardner, let me ask this witness one questi on.

Ian they no t make that kind of fi shh ook in the U ni ted States ?Mr. CA RROLL . I think they could , sir.

Mr. CLA RK . Why do they no t do it ?Mr. CA RRO LL . I do no t see wh

fiy;no t ; but they do not . They do

not do it ; and we are not in the hh ook b usmess:

l’eh?Mr. CLA RK . I thought perhaps you h ad investigated the matterand found out the reason .

Mr. LONGWO RTH . A re they pa tented ? D O you know thatMr. CA RROLL . Y es ; they are patented , sir. I did not thi nk to

answer that .

Mr. GA RD NER . Now I should like t o know about the informationyou have derived from the Maritime Fish Company, at Lunenb erg,as to the preparations they are making for increasmg thei r catch in

Canadian wa ters ; and also about th e vessels that are now on the

stocks in Lunenb erg in anticipation of this treaty, ofwhi ch there seemsto have been knowledge on the p art of the Canadi an fisherman priorto what there was in our own country . Incidentally, I have here the

5 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

figures that Mr. Longworth asked for. about the va lue of the:Canadian

fisheries at present .

(Th e figures above refe rred t o are as fo llows ) :

Value of Canad ian fish eries for 1909Vesse ls of a ll kindsBoatsFi sh ermenNova Scotia :Value

,1 908 .

Cod

D ried

Fish vessels tons ; value ,Fish b oa ts (value , ou tfits ,Th e CHA IRM A N . I do no t suppo se they have put any vesse ls on the

sto cks since this t reaty has been proposed .

Mr. GA RD NER . I think , sir, they h ad an intima tion from their ownGovernment last summer

,a t th e time when th e question of th e threat

ened tariff war was ra ised ; and they took their chances , just as youremember our shipbuilding com anies took a chance on th e shipsubsidy and started in w ith the h ore River Shipbuilding Co . Now

,

let us hear what they a re do ing in Lunenb erg .

Mr. CA RRO LL . I w ill simply say ,in a genera l w a y , that there h as

been a great boom down there in th e fishing business . They havestarted t o build a numb er of new vessels . I have it on t h e best ofauthority that they started early last fa ll t o build a flee t of ‘

20 in

antici ation of ourmarkets . They have been figuring on ourmarketsfor a ong time . Whether or no t they knew anything about this

,I

do not know . But I do know that they are makin great preparations t o invade ourmarkets with their fi sh ; and I do {now that everydolla ii’

l

s wort h of fi sh they sell in this country means $ 1 less thanwe se

I should like t o make one statement about th e condi tion o f the

industry . There seemed t o b e a fee ling here this mornin that it hadgone back ; that it was dw indling ; that it was on it s last egs . Thereis one part of th e industry tha t h as gone back , and that is th e ma ckerelcatch . There h as been a failure of th e mackere l catch

,for which no

one is responsible . Some ears ago , about 1 8 8 3—8 4 , in one year therewere barrels of sa t ed mackerel caught by th e New Englandmackerel fleet . L ast year there were barre ls caught . Thereis th e part of th e industry tha t has dwindled . Th e o ther h as not .

Th e fresh - fi sh industry h as gone ahead tremendously . and will keepgoing along .

Mr. CLA RK . Wha t made th e mackerel industry dwindle ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Th e catch fell off.

Mr. CLA RK . D id they catch all the fi sh out of the se a ?Mr. CA RRO LL . O

pini ons differ on that po int . I do no t think the

caught them all. think they simply went over acro ss t o Irelanor Norway, or somewhere else

,where they have been ge tting tre

mendous catches all th e time—espe cially last yearMr. CLA RK . What went over there—the fi sh ?Mr

zCA RRO LL . Y es

,sir. The mackere l left our shores . “

T

e have a

captain here who i s an expert on that po int ; but tha t is what Ishould

O

sa They left our shores , and that is what h as resulted inthe dw m ling of that industry . During those years we h ad a greatfleet of vessels that did no thing but go after mackere l . A s the

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 53

mackere l disappeared the fleet went with them. But in exchange forthat there h as come up the tremendous demand for fresh fi sh . Thatmarket i s mostly in Boston . Many of our vessels supp ly it .

The CHA IRMA N . What is the principa l fi sh market in Canada, cor

res

ljionding to Gloucester?

S t

r. CA RRO LL . Lunenb erg is what they call the Gloucester of Novaco 1a .

Mr. GA RD NER . What informa tion can y ou give the committee as

t o the Maritime Fish Co . , which h as stations i n various parts ofCanada ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Recently there h as been a merger of several con

cerns down in Nova Sco tia , ba cked by th e Bank ofMontrea l . Theyare large concerns . They are b uildin up a business through Can

The manager of tha t concern t o d me and some o ther dea lerswi thin a month that as soon as thi s thing went through he wouldhave h is agenc in every large city of the U nited States

,after our

business—whio he w ill get , abso lute lyMr. HA RR ISON . Mr. Carro ll

,right in line w ith tha t statement , let

me ask you this question : Ha ve y ou ever heard of Gen . WilliamStopford , of Beverly ?Mr. CA RROLL . Y es

,sir.

Mr. HA RR ISON . It is stated tha t h e has been for more than 40

years one of th e mo st rominent men in th e fi sh trade in that partof Massachuse tts . I should like t o read you just a few sentencesfrom an interview with Gen . St opford in the Boston Herald ofyesterday

,and ask your opinion about it .

Mr. CA RRO LL . Y es,sir.

Mr. HA RR ISON . He is reported a s saying :Wi th free fi sh Gloucester h as a ch ance to b oom i ts b usiness as a distrib uting oint ,

and to make i t th e b iggest salt - fi sh p ort in the coun ry ,if not in the world . t will

mean that firms who engagt in b usiness in th at ci ty can secure th e green fi sh , cured ,handled , and put into shap e ford istrib ution . It wi llmean thatmore firms will engagein business th ere ; and instead of a few comb inations

,the ci ty will have many inde

p endent firms . Since 1 8 8 2 th e flee t from Gloucester has gradually dwindled ,until

to-day i t is not more than a th ird as large as during th e years of free trade . There

will b e no Gloucester firms going to Nova Sco tia to do b usiness . The b usiness will

come to Gloucester; and Gloucester is in a posi tion to take advantage of it .

That is only a p art of th e interview .

Mr. CA RRO LL . D o you want me to spe ak of the interview or of the

gentleman giving it ?Mr. HA RR ISON . I should like to have you express your opinion as to

that statement .

Mr. CA RRO LL . This gentleman h as kept a re tail fi sh market in Salemand Beverly all his life , since I have known him. If that man is morecompetent to give an opinion as to what is best forus than we men of

Gloucester—I amnot talking now for the Gorton Pew Fish Co . alone ,but for every man engaged in that industry ,

with two exce tions—ifhe knowsmore than we do about what is good forus, it is fo v formeto come down here and talk to you gentlemen.

Mr. HA RRISON . It is stated here that he has been in the businessofsending out his own flee t as we ll a s preparing the fi sh .

Mr. CA RROLL . That is abso lute ly not tru e—abso lute ly not true .

‘

He is a re tail fi sh dea ler, who would se ll you ,

a fi sh if you went downand wanted a haddock for your dinner. That is his standing .

54 RECIPROCI’I‘Y W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. GA RD NER . Gen . William Stopford , wh o was the ma j or of th e

battalion in which I served in the Eighth Massachuse tts , i s a veryold friend of mine . I bought fi sh from him at re ta i l , or my fami lydid

,all through my boyhood . He was the adjutant general that

Douglas chose when he was e le cted governor of Massachuse tts.

So

far as I know ,he h as a lways been a fi sh de a ler—and a very delight

ful and charming fi sh de aler at that . But I have never he ard thathe was a fi sh producer. He canmake the best clam chowder that youcould possibly ask for, and h e is one of the most de li ghtful men Iknow .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . D o you mean t o discredit his statement on thataccountMr . GA RD NER . Oh

,no

,no

,no" I kn ow h im.

Mr. MCCA LL . Mr. Carro ll , I h ad a letter this morning from a gen

tleman in Bradford , Mass,named Charles J . Roberts . Mr. Gardner

may know h im.

Mr . GA RD NER . I do no t . He is a constituent ofmine ; but I do notthink I lace him .

Mr. CCA L L . He says h e is very strongly in favor of this treaty ;but h e makes a statement here that I should like t o ask y ou about .

Y ou can tell me whether it is true or no t . He says :

Th e fi sh ,I th ink

,is one of th e most imp ortant i tems th at is in th e trea ty ; and I do

not th ink a few p eop le down in Gloucester th a t are p acking p ollock and putting it onth e market and selling it for codfi sh ough t to b e considered wh en i t comes to a ques

tion of b enefit to nine - tenth s of th e p eop le of th e U nited Sta tes .

How about that statement ?Mr . CA RRO LL . I will refer you t o D r. W iley on that po int

,sir. He

was down there about two years ago .

Mr. MCCA LL . He adds this :A ll I say ab out th e p ollock is true , as I h ave a p ackage of i t h ere th at my wi fe pur

chased yesterday to use in a New England fi sh d inner,and i t was so h ard , tough , and

stringy that we could not use it .

Mr. CA RROLL . P ollock is a very dark fi sh tha t lo oks no thing at alllike codfi sh . But I will say ,

in answer t o tha t,tha t two years ag o I

wro te t o D r. Wiley and asked him if h e would no t send D r. Bitting(his very best man in that department) down t o Gloucester t o investi

gate our industry . D r. Bitting camped in th e office of our mainactory all last summer

,and all th e summer before ; He had access

t o th e entire works ; h e was out and around all the time ; and h e'

ves

us a clean bill of hea lth,sir. He knows whether we pack codfish

po llo ck,or anything e lse .

Mr. MCCA LL .

.

Afterwriting further ufp on that subj ect , and recurring

t o ano ther sub j ect , h e puts on a sort 0 postscript in which he say s :Th e p rice of p acked p ollock was 15 cents for 15 ounces .

How about the weight ?Mr. CA RRO LL . Tha t may b e possible

,sir

,because fi sh shrinks .

We pack 16 ounces to th e pound,but it will shrink more or less .

That i s one of our grea t troubles , and it is something tha t we shallhave t o face some day when you gentlemen say tha t th e we ight mustb e stamped on every package , because we can not tell a bso lutely howmuch i t wi ll shrink . If i t h as been in the reta il rocery store a lonwhi le , i t W i ll b e ap t t o contain about 1 5 ounces . But you understand

BECIPROCITY W ITH C A N A D A . 55

that you have just as much fi sh in there as you had when it first camein and we ighed16 ounces .

Mr. GA RD NER . Th e only further po int that I wish to bring out isas to th e state of affa irs under the old treaty —the last time we h adfree fi sh with Canada . I should like to put on th e stand Capt .

Sylvanus Smith . He is 8 2 years old,and it is a good deal t o askofhim.

But I thought perhaps a few words from Mr. Carroll or somebodyelse tha t

.

h e might suggest would cover that po int . Then my end of

th e hearing wil b e closed , except tha t I should like th e privi lege ofcross- examining some of th e witnesses that will come before you on

th e other side . Wh om have y ou settled on t o present th e state ofaffairs existing under th e old treaty ?Mr. CA RROLL . Capt . Sylvanus Smith himself is here . I should

think he would b e th e best one,because h e is th e only man who h as

persona l knowledge of tha t matter. That was before my time,

gentlemen . I know wha t happened

,but I would rather have some

ody tell about it who knows of it personally .

Mr. GA RD NER . These men here all know by hearsay what h appened . Ca

pt . Smith is 8 2 years old

,but I think y ou wi ll fi nd h e is

perfectly ab e t o testify if you desire to hear him.

STATEMENT OF CA PT. SY LVANU S SMITH.

Capt . SM ITH . Mr. Chairman, I did no t expe ct to b e ca lled on .

Icame here two years ago , and I have b een i n this business for a grea tmany ears—for th e last 4 0 years .

Mr. CCA LL . Capta in , y ou were a member of th e Massachuse ttsLegisla ture . I think I h ad th e honor of serving wi th you .

Capt . SM ITH . We h ad a recipro city reso lution th en,on which I

took th e floor tw ice . I have h ad a little experience in th e busin ess .

I was brought up in it from th e time I w as a b oy . I think it was in18 37 when I first went to work on a small bo a t . I have been throughall th e stages of th e fi sh business . I re tired some ye ars ago , in 1 8 64

,

and went into busine ss . For th e last 15 ye ars or so I h ave no t beenactive ly employed in th e business . Th e b oys carry on th e business ,but I still take an interest in it , as I have in th e p ast .

A s I say , I have been in th e fight for all these years . I have beenon here a good many times on all of your reciprocit trea ties . Ireco lle ct well th e o ld treaty o f 1 8 55 , as we called it . Igerh ap s some

of you have he ard tha t we h ad good times in the fishing business in18 55 , durin th e continuance o f tha t trea ty . Our business then wasaltogether ifferent . Th e provinces sent in very few codfi sh

,and

the codfi sh were hard—cured ; and theirmackere l did no t amount t overy much in th e American marke t . Then there were lar e quantities ofmackere l caught in th e Bay of Chaleur. We h ad a arge fleetofvesse ls there fishing a ll those y ears , and we h ad a number of sma llervesse ls than we have now fishing in tho se w a ters : and we did no t

feel the effect of tha t tre a ty any .

A s I say ,it has been sa id by a good many tha t we h ad good times

during tha t trea ty . Th e war came on and all business was boomed ,and in 18 67 th e trea ty was abroga ted . Then

,by th e w ay ,

since 17 92there was a bounty tha t was given the fishermen . Tha t was takenoff about 18 67 . Then there was an effort made on the part of the

56 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Canadians for th e continuance of th e old trea ty o f 18 55 . Many ves

se ls were se ized , a grea t many of them illega lly , and there w as a greatdea l of irrita tion be tween the two sections . Perhaps some of you

re co llect tha t th e President h ad ower g iven by Congress to de clarenonintercourse with Canada . en the Washing ton trea ty was

fi xed uMr. GA RD NER . Wh a t you ca ll th e Washing ton tre a ty i s the trea ty

of 18 7 1‘

8

Capt . SMITH . Y es , sir. W hen tha t tre a ty w as fixed u there wasa committee appo inted to come on to Washing ton and te l them howwe stood . I h a ened to b e one of tha t committee , but for some re ason or o ther I (Ed

)

no t come . Hamilton Fish was Secretary of Statea t th e time , and h e did no t Ge t proper informa tion ,

and it was providedtha t we should re insta te the o ld re cipro city tre a ty . Tha t providedfor free fishing and tha t a commission should sit in Ha lifax to see howmuch we should p ay them,

if anything . Tha t commission me t . Mr.

D elfox was the third man ; and I was down there some two weeksbefore tha t commission . They decided tha t fi ve millions and a quarter should b e a id them as indemnitie s . It w as understood tha t thatmoney was t a en by th e Canadians

,and they rece ived the ir bounties

from it to—day . Tha t tre a ty w as abroga ted as soon a s it could b edone , a t th e end of th e 10 y ears .

Th e next tre a ty was the Chamberla in—Bayard tre a ty,which is

practica lly the same tre a ty we have now . we were very muchwrought up over tha t . We fe lt tha t our interests were being sacrifi ced

,and we made gre at e fforts , and we sent a committee on here

,

and th e result was tha t the Sena te committee investiga ted the who lequestion . Th e who le fishery industry of New England was arrayedaga inst it , and the trea ty was se t aside . Then

,there have be en two

o thers since tha t have no t be come a law .

We e arnestly fee l tha t if this tre a ty should go into effe ct it wouldmean the w iping out of the Gloucester fishing industry . I take a

reat interest in the busine ss . I should like to see it left prosperous .

f course , the business has changed from time to time . The oldme thods of putting up fi sh have given place to new ones . The oldme thod , when they were dried and ship ed off to marke t in theorigina l sta te , h as been changed . There ave been grea t factoriesere cted . Take my plant , where I do busine ss : Tha t plant itse lfstands me probably We emplo y lo ts of men

, b oys , andgirls—a reat many of them. If th e b usmess goes I do no t knowwha t wil b e come of them. I have no t go t long to st ay ; I can ge ta long ; but what w ill become of them ?I fee l confident , gentlemen , that if this tre a ty Go e s into effe ct it

will re sult in practica lly the annihilation o f the b usiness with us .

It Wi ll no t b e this year; it will no t b e next y e ar : but it w ill graduallycome about . They started out up there to do the distributing buSIness

,and there is where the ma tte r of labor comes in . The men

tha t can do the labor the che apest w ill b e th e ones to do it . TheCanad i ans can do the labor che ape r than we can .

Mr. GA RD NER . Capta in ,the las t trea ty —th e ( ‘

hamb erla in—Bayardtrea ty—wa s , of course , as yo u sa id

,rej e c ted ; and so wa s th e Hay

Bond trea ty . The last tre a ty tha t wa s in e ffec tCapt . SM ITH . The Bla ine - Bond and Ha y—Bond trea ties ?

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/join

5 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

everything e lse . So far as bo ats are concern ed ,they use thel l

‘

OWD .

bo ats .

A ny quest ions that you gentlemen would like to ask, I W i ll try toanswer.

Mr. GA RD NER . Substantia lly speaking ,durin th e continuance of

that treaty ,wha t saved Gloucester was th e mac erel flee t ?

Mr. SM ITH . Y es .

Mr. GA RD NER . A nd that h as very large ly gone t o pieces , h as i t no t ?Mr. SM ITH . Y es . I would say ,

inmy own experience of that treaty ,in regard t o th e vessels , the captain of one , in pa rticular, go t so manyfi sh that I turned h im out of th e vessel , and I to ok one ofmy largevessels , th e capta in ofwhich is here now ,

and sent h ermacke re l fi shing ,and I took all my vesse ls out of th e banks fishing . “

I

li en it came to

th e end of my season ,my bookkeeper asked about taking stock and

I said : “Oh

,everything that is there is mine ,

”

and I did no t like totake any sto ck . I know we have lost a good dea l ofmoney ,

a greatmany seasons , do ing that , and h ad t o give it up .

Mr. GA RD NER . Wh a t Capt . Smith refers to is tho se Fortune Bayrio ts . We h ad the treaty right of th e in- shore fisheries

,and when we

came t o exercise th e trea ty right th e na tives came out w ith guns and

sa id tha t treaty or no treaty they did no t propose to have us fishingin their back yard . I think the only skipper who go t away w ith a

trip at tha t time was Capt . Solomon Jacobs . After a gre at dea l ofdiploma tic corres ondence

,Great Britain se ttled tho se cla ims for

damages for th e ortune B ay rio t s,b ut since that time

,in fishing for

herring on th e treaty co ast,we have found it expedient to keep the

peace with the natives .

I close my side, gentlemen

,with th e request tha t I may b e er

mit t ed,later on , to ask questions of those who wish to b e he ar in

eu ort of the treaty .

e CHA IRMA N . A re there any gentlemen here who desire t o presentOp osing views on the fi sh subj ect .

EVERA L GENTLEMEN . Y es .

Th e CHA IRM A N . L e t one of you come forw ard . I do no t. knowth e names of any of you .

STA TEMENT OF CHA RLES F . WONSON , OF GLOU CESTER , MASS.

Mr. WO NSO N . Mr. Cha irman and gentlemen of th e commit t ee ,I

h ad very little time to prepare myse lf for this hearing , but c omindown on th e tra in last night I a t t em t ed t o scri bble what I wantet o say ,

and if you will permit me I wffl roceed in tha t w ay . It willno t take me t en minutes , and then I wil b e open t o questions . or youmay interruptme a t any time if you wish . But few ofus can prophesya ccura tely wha t effect this leg isla tio n , if enacted , will have on thefisheri es ofGloucester, b ut we can tell t o a certa inty the present condi t ion of these fishe ries

,and make a comparison between conditions

now and in 1 8 8 5,when th e trea ty of 1 8 7 2 was abroga ted . Permit

me t o say , first , tha t I h ad hoped tha t an agreement acceptable toboth count ri es c o uld have been made b y admitting free green fi shonly, but I c onsider the necessity for free green fi sh so gre a t tha t . as ab usmess man

, I am fo rced t o accept this wh o le agreement ra ther thansacrifi ce th e opportunity of securing green fi sh

,which I sincerely

beli eve spells prosperi ty for Gloucester.

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 59

In 1 8 80my bro ther and I urch ased th e only piece of wharf property available for th e fi shing business tha t was for sa le in Gloucester.

Y es, we h ad the temerity, after re ciprocity h ad been in force sevenyears , to go into th e fi sh business for a life vo ca tion . A t that time

there were between 40 and 50 concerns,large and small

,engaged in

the fi sh business in Gloucester. Th e report says 58 . I did no t havetime to verify it , and I want to b e conserva tive

,and so I put it between

40 and - 50. To—day there are no t over 2 5 , large and sma ll,and this

number includes all the fresh fi sh concerns . Th e number of vesselsoperated in Gloucester in 1 8 8 0

,when I went into business

,was over

400,and to—day , according t o th e latest report of th e Gloucester

customhouse , they number 1 8 3 . Th e gross tonnage in 1 900 was

In 19 10 it was and thi s is a lso verified by th e customs

records in Gloucester.

The to ta l ca tch of sa lted fi sh and fi sh to salt landed in Gloucesterin 1 8 9 3 was pounds . Th e average price paid the vesse lfor these fi sh w as a little o ver 3 cents per pound . In 1909 , whi chhas been ca lled th e banner year in th e fisheries , th e to ta l product ,according t o th e fi ures co llected by th e statistician of th e Go vernment , who is a lso t e marine reporter for the Gloucester Time s

,was

pounds . My figures say pounds,and his say ,

I think,

pounds . This was in 1 909 . Th e average pricein 1909 was a little under 3 cents p er pound . Such a record does no tappea l t o me as showing genera l prosperity . To - day wa ter- frontproperty in Gloucester is lying idle , expensive ly constructed wharvesand buildings are uno ccupied and de caying . Our young men t o—dayfind no incentive to engage in the b usmess , and a s so on as they are

educated , depart for o ther citie s .

I have been represented as a sma ll dealer. I admit it ; but y e tI do a business of a year, and have done so since 1 902 .

I ay out t o labor from t o yearly .

gave up th e business in 1 8 9 8 and served'

in Cuba and th e Philip

pines until May , 19 01 , and resumed business in 1 902 with no th ingut credit , energy, and a determination to make good . I havemade good . I refer you t o my banker.

I am a sma ll dealer in comparison wi th the bi dealers wh o are

represented in this delega tion ,but wha t I have one I have done

alone,while th e largest company among these b ig com ani es i s a

consolida tion of four o ther b ig compani es , two of whio inh eri tedprestige and w ea lth from the ir ancestors . I inherited no thing but a

good business educa tion and th e disposition and energy t o work . Ifyou will take th e amount of business in do llars tha t thi s com anydoes yearly

,and divide it by th e number of origina l members 0 th e

concern,nine

, you will see tha t my business is gui t e a respectable

item in regard to th e welfare of Gloucester; and want to o

say here ,

gentlemen ,right now ,

tha t there are a t th e present time eight men,

if I am informed correctly , members of tha t corpora ti on ,wh o are

drawing er y ear each .

May I procee a little further, gentlemen ?

The CHA IRMA N . Y es . Does th e committee desire to ask any

questions ?Mr. GA RD NER . I should like t o ask a few questions .

Mr. WON SON . I have no t finished ye t . I have taken notes Sincethis hearing began, and I wi sh t o controvert some sta tements tha thave been made here .

60 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Th e CHA IRMA N . Proceed .

Mr. WO NSON . Th e question was as ked here if very many of the

men manning our vesse ls were native citizens , and if I understoo d theanswer correctly ; th e answer was tha t a large pro ort ion Of themwere American citizens . A s a ma tter of fact , gent emen

,the men

and th e captains of our vessels are pretty nearly ,if no t qu i te , 90 per

cent forei n born ,and t o—day 7 5 p er cent of the men who are man

ning our e e t are fore ign born and are no t na turali zed C i ti zens . Iprove tha t statement by a statement made t o me yesterda

y1by a

deputy co llector of th e city of Gloucester,wh o h as been in of ce for

20 years . He is now th e t ax co llector. He sa id tha t 20 ye ars ago he

co llected from th e fishermen of Gloucester t o eachyear in poll taxes . Last year he did no t co llect D o es thatshow that th e men manning our flee t are American C i tizens ?Of this de legation who are present , there are three who have told

me personally tha t they thoroughly be lieve in th e admission of freegreen fi sh . They do no t want me t o go so far as to say that they willaccept the o ther art ra ther than lose th e free green- fi sh provis ion.

Capt . Peoples as to ld you h e own ed his schooner,but he did no t

te ll you tha t th is schooner is a sma ll one , worth about to

tha t h e goes in her in th e summer time,and then takes a.

vesse l from one of the firms and go es down to Newfoundland in the

W inter time .

The part of Capt . Thomas’

s vesse l which he does no t own isowned

,I think

,by members of the Gordon - Pew Co .

One of the de lega tes wh o was presented here as represen t ing a

labor un ion is employed by the Gordon—Pew Co . He,I am informed ,

is no t a member of any union ,and does no t represent them here .

In speaking about our inability t o ship fi sh into Canada , I thinkthe next witness w ill show tha t there h as been a considerable quantityo f fish shipped from the U nited States into Canada , and particularlyin the years of recipro city .

Coming down on th e tra in las t night I s truck thi s gentleman,Mr.

H . H . Brauligam,who is secre tary and manager of th e Bridge ort

Mo tor Co . (Inc ) , of Bridgeport , Conn . He te lls me tha t hi s tra e inC anada is considerable , and he a lso informed me tha t th e duty was2 7 or 2 7 1} p er cent . In spite of tha t th e Canadian manufacturersmaintain th e price ; they do no t cut th e price

,but le t. him come in

with hi s product and mee t h im. If a mo tor manufacturer can,in

competition wi th th e cheap labor of Canada,send his mo tors into

Canada and sell them a t a profit and p ay a duty of 2 7 3. p er cent anddo a profitable business , I should think we might do some thing inth e way of fi sh .

Just a moment and I wi ll b e through . I w ant t o read y ou thefollow mg newspaper clipping :

GONE TO N OVA SCO TIA HOMES .

Cap ts . Newman Wharton , A lden Geel, Walter D ouce tte , and William Morrissey ,who re turned a few (l a s ago from Newfoundland herrin" trip s , left to - day b y steamerfrom Boston for th e i r omes in Nova Scot ia . Th ey will re turn h ere th e la tter partof Feb rua wh en they W i ll fit out sch ooners A rkona

, Ta ttler, A rcadia ,and Premier

for salt co hook fish ing trips . Th e up ani o thNewEngland fish ing flee t .

y i ng e b est known c0d fi ghem Of the

Th e gentleman in Gloucesterwho so ld them the tickets t o 0 hometo ld me tha t th ev to ld him that the y were to stop on th e wgv home

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 61

and order a set of dories for the ir vesse ls in Shelburn,Nova Sco tia

,

and they would pick up these dories as they went down . Th e se bo atsare supposed no t t o b e landed in th e U nited States . A s a matter offact they are landed

,and no duty is pa id on them.

One thousand nets in one consignment last fa ll went from Sco tlandforGorton - P ew and Cunningham and Thompson

,consigned t o Ingram

at Sydney ,Cape Breton ,

were landed a t Montrea l by A llen L ine steamer,

and forwarded b y th e Interco lonial R a ilway t o Sydney,where they

dumped them off w ithout no tifying consignees , and th e cla im was

made that they spo iled in bundles . and a claim was presented t o th eCanadian Government .

This gentleman say s , How about getting dories made a t Shelburnto supply these Gloucester fi sh - trust magnatesThat

,Mr. Cha irman

,is all that I have prepared . I will b e glad to

answer anyt hing that I can .

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Cha irman,th e gentleman sa id that Freeman

Brown ,who gave evidence here

,is an employee of th e Gorton - P ew

Co . D id I understand you correctly ?Mr. WONSON . I understood tha t h e was .

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Freeman Brown,will you stand up and te ll the

committee whether tha t is a true statement ?Mr. BROWN . No

,sir.

Mr.WO NSON Mr. Cha irman,I do no t admit th e right ofMr. Gardner

to examine me unless th e committee demand it . I am no t go ing tosubmit t o hi s cro ss - examina tion unless th e committee demand it ; but

ill

will

k

very cheerfully answer any questions tha t th e committee or

e as

Mr. FO RD NEY . If it will g ive th e committee any information thatthey have no t go t I would like to he ar it .

Mr. WO N SO N . A ll ri ht , sir.

Mr . FORD NEY . Mr. Chairman,it seems to me that that question is

important . I would like t o have th e committee g ive permission t o

Mr. Gardner t o ask tha t question ,so tha t th e committee migh t b e

better informed .

The CHA IRMA N . I understand that Mr. Gardner is t o b e allowed t ocross—examine th e witnesses . Is there any objection on the part ofany member of th e committee to Mr. Gardner be ing allowed to crossexamine ?Mr. CLA RK . Oh

,le t h im go on and examine him. He knows more

about it than we do .

Mr. GA RD NER . Now ,Mr. Brown ,

are y ou an employee of th e

Gorton- P ew Co .

Mr. BROWN . I am not,at present .

Mr. WO NSON . Wh om is h e an employee of

Mr. GA RD NER . Now ,Mr. Wonson

, you stated that th e part of th evessel not owned by Capt . Thomas was owned by the Gorton- P ew Co .

Mr. WO NSON . I b e your pardon,I did no t make that statement .

Mr. GA RD NER . We we will have the re ort er’s notes .

Mr. RA ND ELL .It seems t o me this is in t e na ture of testimony in

rebuttal,and this is not cress—examination .

Th e CHA IRMA N . I was go ing t o suggest t o Mr. Gardner that as

long as th e Wi tness ob fects , h e ought to confine himse lf stri ctly t o a

cross—examination . This is rather liberal for a cross - examinati on .

62 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. WO NSON . Mr. Cha irman,if you will permit me , I would say

that I have come down here backed by no Congressman. I come

down here a lone .

The CHA IRMA N . Oh , you are just as well off as if you h ad a Con

gressman.

Mr. WO NSON .I know

,but I have a ri

ght to expect fair treatment ;

that is all I ask, and I will tell y ou any t ng I know.

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou will get tha t .

The CHA IRMA N . All you have go t t o do i s to tell the truth and you

w ill b e'

ust as well off as if you h ad a Congressman .

Mr.GA RD NER . In regard t o this statement that a part of Capt .

Thomas’s ship was owned by th e Gorton- Pew Co .

,did you say that

Capt . Thomas h ad no t to ld them tha t a part of h is ship was owned byth e Gorton- Pew Co . ,

clearly leaving th e impli cat ion that they didown it ?Mr. WONSON . No

,sir ; I did no t .

Mr. GA RD NER . May I have th e stenographer’s no tes read on that

o intpMr. WONSON . I was informed tha t the o ther part of it was owned

by th e Gorton- P ew Co .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Then you do no t know whe ther that statement iscorrect ornot ?Mr. WO NsON . No

,sir.

Mr. FORD NEY . Then you ought no t t o make it .

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Wonson,there are here certa in entlemen

en aged in substantia lly th e same bus iness as yourself . ake Mr.

Gale,Mr. Moore , Mr. Smith

,and Mr. Bradley

,four of them that I

can count with my eye ; now ,do they

,any of them

,agree with you in

this advocacy of the treaty ?Mr. WONSON . That is no t a fair question .

Mr. GA RD NER . Oh,I submi t

,Mr. Chairman

Mr. WO NSON . I re fuse to answer the question put in that weMr. GA RD NER . A ll right , sir; you are no t under oath and can

no t compe l you to . Are the Crown P a cking Co .,Mr. Smi th

,and

Henry E. P inkham in the same bus iness with you ?Mr. WO NSO N . No

,sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . In wha t respe ct does it differ ?Mr. WO NSO N . The Crown Pa cking Co . are what we call an express

order company .

Mr. GA RD NER . It is substantia lly the same , is it no t ?Mr. WONSON . No , sir; it is a ltoge ther different . Henry E. Pink

h am is in a very much sma ller way .

Mr. GARD NER . Now y ou were talking about the fa ct that you hadstarted in 18 80, and that y ou h ad no ba cking , and that you hadfought over body , which of course would b e very creditable . Whoare W . H. I onson Son ?Mr. WO NSON . Oh

, they are , pe ople there,very we ll known . I did

no t make the statement tha t I s t arted in 18 8 0with no backing. Idid no t start without any backing in 1 8 8 0. I sa id tha t I h ad no

backing in 1902 when I c ame b ack from the Philippine Islands .

Your memory is no t go od , sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . W . 11. Wonson Son are in substantially the samebusine ss as you are

Mr. WONSO N . No ,sir.

RECIPRC C ITY W ITH C A N A D A . 63

Mr. GA RD NER . In R h at do es the ir business differ from yours ?Mr. WO N sO N . They are smoked - ha libut people

, a ltogether, andh ave been .

Mr. GA RD NER . They do no t own anv vessels ; t hev are manufac~t ure i

'

s of salt fish ?Mr. \Y o xso x . The ir business is confined ent irelv to smoked ha libut

and herring , and has been , so far as I know,a lway s .

Mr. GA RD NER . There may b e some dii l erence,but t h cv are sub

s tant ially in th e same business ; they are fi sh shippers i nGloucester ?Mr. Vi

'

o xs o x . No,sir ; you will have t o permit me t o differ from you .

Y ou show that y ou have no t an intimate knowledge of th e situation .

Mr. GA RD NER . I'Vell, a t all ev ents

,they are genera lly suppo sed to

b e in the same business . Ne w . have you a lett er there which youW ish to re ad t o th e commit tee from P . J . O

’

Brien“4

Mr. IVO N SO N . Y es ; I have a number of letters,if the committee

w ants t o listen t o them.

Mr. GA RD NER . I would like t o hear that P . J . O’

Brien letter.

Mr. WO NSO N . This le tter is as fo llows :

GLO U CESTER BO A RD‘

or TRA D E,

Gloucester, Mass . ,February 1 , 1 9 1 1 .

Mr. CHA RLES F . WO N SO N .

D EA R SIR : Rep ly in to your inquiry as to h ow I stand on th e question of th e reciprocal agreement w ith anada , I b eg to say th a t I b elieve if th e agreement is ra tifi edmy b usiness will b e ma teria lly b enefited . I am a strong advocate of th e entry of free

green fi sh , b elieving tha t p art of th e a reement will grea tly b enefit Gloucester as a

whole . Wh ile th e entry of free manu ac tured fi sh will b enefi t me p ersona lly in a

b usiness way , I am no t sure b ut th a t feature of th e agreement would take away th e

emp loyment of lab or in Gloucester, and Iwould advocate no legislation wh ich wouldhave that effect .

Y ours, truly ,P . J . O

’

BRIEN Co . ,

By P . J . O’

BRIEN .

Mr. CLA RK . I would like to askMr . Gardner h ow he kn ew tha t thewitness h ad tha t le tter ?Mr. GA RD NER . I w ill re ad a te legram, which will expla in tha t , say

ing that Mr. Wonson h as w ith him a le tter from P . J . O’Brien .

(Mr. Gardner here re ad th e te legram re ferred to . )Mr. GA RD NER . I am through w ith th e w itness .

Mr. M ON SON . Mr. Cha irman,if you will a llow me just a minute ;

I had supposed from a te legram tha t was re ad here tha t nearly all

of the 1 40members of the bo ard of trade h ad been seen ; but I wanti t understood tha t it was no t a t a regular mee ting of the board ,b ecause there was none ca lled last night when I left Gloucester a t

4 o’clo ck

,and A rticle No . 7 of th e b y

- laws of tha t organiza tion readsthis way :Meetingsmay b e called at any time b y th e president of th e b oard of trade or u on

the wri tten ap p lica tion of 10memb e rs to th e secre tary ,notice th ereof to b e pub lis ed

in one or more Gloucester daily p ap ers , and b y no tice ma i led to each memb er 24hours in advance of each mee ting .

I hap en to have been e le cted a member of the board of directorsof tha t oard of trade , and I have no t been no tified of any publi cmee ting .

Mr. CLA RK . Mr.

”

W itness , tha t do es no t make a bit of d i fference .

Wha t you sta te you believe . IfMr. Gardner has go t a lo t of peoplewho want to contradict you ,

le t h im bring them in .

Mr.

TWO NSO N . A ll right, sir.

64 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. CLA RK . If you h ave anybody to back you u bring h im in .

Mr. GA RD NER . I am re ady t o ask Mr. Tre a t , of oston ,to address

ou .yMr.HILL . I would like to ask just one question . I am looking

for information . I would like to ask your opinion as t o why Canadacharges a cent a pound duty on fi sh

,one—quarter of a cent a pound

more than we do ? Have you any opinion on tha t ?Mr. WO N SON . No

,sir.

Mr. HILL . A ll right .

Mr. C LA RK . If we do no t ship fi sh up there , it do es no t do any good

to anybody,do es it , tha t cent a pound ?

Mr. WO NSO N . We do shi fi sh up there .

Mr. CLA RK . How much 0 y ou shi

Mr. WO NSON . I do no t know . I sliip none .

Mr. CLA RK . Who do es ship any ?

Mr. WO N SO N . This gentleman who w ill fo llow me is a shipper. Ithink

,and h as been .

Mr. CLA RK . One of these witnesses testified tha t th ey never sentb ut 25 ounds .

Th e HA IRM A N . It w a s sta ted in th e statistics of tha t comp anytha t they sent as much as tha t . They shipped more pounds thantha t .

Mr. GA RD NER . He says his fi rm h as never shipped above pounds .

A BYSTA ND ER . Twenty- fi ve boxes .

Mr. GA RD NER . Twent y—fi ve boxes ; I b eg your pardon .

Mr. MCCA LL . Is that all you desire to say?

Mr. WO NSON . Y es ,sir.

Mr. CLA RK . Mr. Cha i rman,before th e next W i tne ss begins I would

like t o ask you a question . How long are the se he arings go ing toast ?

Th e CHA IRM A N . I do no t know .

Mr. CLA RK . A bout how long do y ou think the y w ill lastThe CHA IRM A N . It is pretty h ard t o guess .

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou are no t go ing t o try to report this bill befo re Mon

day ,are you ,

or Tuesday ?The CHA IRM A N . I am no t go ing t o t ry t o report it before Mond

‘

av .

Mr. CLA RK . W hat do you sa about Tuesdayd

Mr. FO RD NEY . A lot of peop e from my Stat e wanted t o b e he ard ,and they could no t ge t he re before Monday .

The CHA IRMA N . It wi ll take , necessarily , as long as th at .

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou will not do it before Tuesday ? Tha t is,y ou will

no t try t o do it . Y ou do no t know whe ther y ou can do it a t all ornot .Mr. LO NGWO RTH . This he aring t o—day

,Mr. Chairman . is no t a

precedent for he aring peop le interested from all ove r the count ryThe CHA IRMA N . What i s tha t ?Mr. LO NGWORTH . I say I hope this hearing is no t t o f urnish a

pre cedent for persons from all over the country who are interestedto b e heard .

The CHA IRMA N . I do no t think it is a pre cedent for anything . Ofcourse , the committee can shut off he arings a t any time .

a

Mr. LO NGWORTH . I me an, I th ink it ought t o b e understood thati t i s no t such a pre cedent .

Th e CHA IRMA N . Some gentlemen wanted to b e he ard on somesub j ects on whi ch we h ad he arings during the tariff discussion in

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66 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. FORD NEi'

. Mr. Chairman ,in the treaty there IS a provi sion

re lating to wood pulp which provides tha t news rint paper shall b eadmitted from Canada free of duty , provided

‘anada ermi ts the

pulp wo o d to come into this country unrestri cted . Th e umb ermen

are very much interested in h aving a proviso of tha t same k ind relating t o lumber.

It is proposed to p ut lumber on the fre e l ist . Thereis an embargo aga inst logs . Is there any reason why w e sho uld no trece ive informa tion on the subj e ct ? Is there any good reason whylumber should no t b e admitted free as we ll as paper pulp , when thevare bo th forest products ?The CHA IRM A N . The question whe ther lumber sho uld b e treated

in tha t way is a question independent , by itse lf, in my j udgment .

We will cross that bridge when we com" t o it .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Th e po int is , I say these lumbermen want t o b ehe ard on that subje ct . A re we go in to permit a he aring on thatsubject . Mr. Longworth suggests t i a t we do not h ave generalhearings . Now ,

here are these lumbermen wh o want to b e heardon tha t o int , and some o f them want to come from Sea ttle . Ihave a t e egram from them in my o ffice .

The CHA IRM A N . Those people out there can no t have exclusiveknowledge on tha t subj ect .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Mr. Cha irman ,I am frank t o say tha t the lumber

industry of th e country is o fmore importance than th e fi sh industry,and while I am very friendly to th e suggestion tha t the fi shmen b eheard in full, why should we choke off any important industry ?Mr. MCCA LL . We h ad these gentlemen come here at once .

Mr. Gardner h ad h is men come on immediate ly,but y ou are now

pro osing t o have men come on here from Seattle .

e CHA IRMA N . Wa it a moment,if you please . I think we will

defer thi s discussion until we are in executive session .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Very we ll .

STATEMENT OF LEONARD A . TREAT, OF BOSTON , MA SS .

Mr. TREA T . My credentials are from the Boston Fish Bureau .

The question that I wi sh to present to your commit t ee , Mr. Cha irmanand gentlemen , is th e question of the salt fi sh industry . I am not

in terested in the fresh fi sh industry . I have no particular knowledgeof it . But we have he ard a grea t deal of wha t is go ing t o happen,

and large ly on the line of prophecy . I ho ld tha t th e best lamp formost of us is th e lamp of e erience

,and the only w ay we can know ,

it seems t o me , what wou d happen is b y referring t o wha t hashappened . Fortuna te ly , we have h ad one rec iproc it y trea ty . and weknow that when we h ad tha t rec ip ro city trea ty the same fi sh businesswas conducted as is be ing conducted now ,

but in large r vo lume and ina more profi t ab le manner. There are three kinds of fi sh that largelycompose the fis h industry ofNew En land

,the codfi sli , the mackerel ,

and the herring . Y ou have been to d that t he mackerel , for somereason or other, as soon as the trea ty was enacted ,

disappeared fromour co as t . As to the herring , they , too ,

are. slowly d isa pearing.

There seem to b e less and less of them c aught e ach year. ut thererema ins the codfi sh industry , and about that I would like t o speak toyou for a moment . U nder that treaty we h ad recipro city from 18 72to 1 8 8 6

,and that was an era of prosperity in the fi sh business, and

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A . 67

with your permission I will take the last fi ve years of recipro city andcompare them with the first fi ve ye ars after th e abrogation of thetreaty . During th e years 1 8 8 0, 1 8 8 1 , 1 8 8 " 1 8 8 3 , and 1 8 8 4 , th e lastfi ve years of reci ro city , there were engaged in the New Englandcodfi sh industry rom 5 7 9 vessels to 765 vessels . Now taking thefi ve years that fo llowed the abroga tion of th e treaty

,in th e first year

,

1 8 8 5 , there were 730 vesse ls in th e fleet,in 1 8 8 6 there weer 58 9

,in

1 8 8 7, 560, in 1 8 8 8 , 4 9 5 , and in 1 8 8 9 it h ad dwindled away

,during that

fifth year,to 2 9 5 vesse ls .

Taking , now ,th e pro duct of th e last fi ve y ears of recipro city

,we

have th e fo llowing figures :

To tal ca tch in hundredweight or quinta ls .

4, 38 3 , 54 8

A verage catch 8 76,709

In th e followin fi ve ye ars , th e first fi ve years after th e abrogationof th e tre at y ,

we ave th e fo llowing figures in regard t o th e catch :

Total catch in hundredweight or quinta ls .

Average catch 698 , 4 64

Not only h ad th e number of vesse ls shrunk,but th e output h ad

shrunk . Now,no t only was th is true of th e vesse ls and no t only

was it true of the product , b ut it was a lso true of the price .

Th e average rice during th e last fi ve ye ars was p er 100

pounds of sa lted)

fi sh as they came from th e vesse l, go ing onto th e

railro ad coming from these curers,whi le after the abrogation of the

treaty th e average price wasNew ,

I contend that wi th these fi ures before us,which are more

e loquent than any man can po ssibly e,there is no thing left for us to

say but that reci ro city ,as we have it presented t o us under this bill ,

would cause all t ese bugaboos our friends from Gloucester presentedto y ou t o - day to disappe ar like mists before a rising sun . It certainlyseems to me that wi th this industry

,which they all admit

,in the 25

years that it h as existed since 1 8 8 6,h as been continually shrinking

from ear to ye ar, it is about time that they changed do ctors . If anyofus ad been sick for 25 years wi th a doctor of one schoo l , I thinkwewould have listened t o somebody e lse

,even though we might think

he was a charla tan . In 1 8 8 5 and 1 8 8 6 there were more than 50 con

cerns in the sa lt—fi sh industry in Boston . The years have ro lled by ,and there are less than 1 5 of these concerns now . I am now speakingofno thing but the salt- fi sh industry . These vessels that I am ta lki ng

68 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

about were who lly engaged in th e salt- fi sh business, sa lt codfi sh and

other ground fi sh .

That is all I have to say ,and I am now open t o any questi ons .

Mr. LONGWORTH .I would like t o ask you,

in the first place , aboutthat recipro city treaty . In wha t respect does i t d i ffer from the

one we have here now ?0 0 0

Mr. TREA T . I am no t familiar with the de tai ls of.

113,but i t i s

practica lly th e same . There were some inshore fisheri es tha t were

granted t o us under th e old recipro city trea ty that areno t granted us

now .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH .Your last figures there were for 18 8 6 , were they

no t ?

Mr. TREA T . Y es .

Mr. LO NGWORTH . Can you give us th e figures Since 1 900 ?Mr. TREA T . Y es . I just wanted t o give you th e ca tch .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Only the ca tch ?Mr. TREA T . Y es ; that is all I c an give you.

Mr. LO NGW O RTH . Can you give th e number of vessels ?Mr. TREA T . No

,sir; I have no t those fi ures .

Mr. HILL . I understand you represente the Boston Fish A ssociat ion .

Mr. TREA T . Y es ; the Boston Bureau of Sa lt Fish .

Mr. HILL . D o you live in Gloucester ?Mr. TREA T . No

,sir; in Boston .

Mr. GA RD NER . Now , gentlemen,I would like to ask a few questions.

The CHA IRMA N . Very well .Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Treat

, y ou entirely differ from the positiontaken by th e New England Fish Exchange ?Mr. TREA T . Tha t is a fresh—fi sh organization .

Mr. GA RD NER . Y es .

Mr. TREA T . I know no thing about their position,excep t as sta ted

here to - day .

Mr. GA RD NER . Are you a producer of fi sh ?

Mr. TREA T . No,sir; I am a curer of fi sh .

Mr. GA RD NER . What w ere those figures ou just read , as to the

amount ; was tha t th e amount of th e ca tch anded in Boston‘

8

Mr. TREA T . In New England .

Mr. GA RD NER . In New England ?Mr. TREA T . Y es .

Mr. GA R D NER . And during th e exi stence of th e recipro city treaty ;and just wha t did you wish t o convey t o the commi t te e b y po intingout tha t a fter th e treaty was abo lished and a duty was imposed on

Canada , they could no t send fi sh here ? W'

ould it no t b e na tural toexpect tha t the amount of fi sh would very much fa ll off in th e nextfi ve years ?Mr. TREA T . No , sir ; because th e fi sh landed from these vessels

were fi sh caught by American fi shermen in American vessels .

Mr. GA RD NER . In the first fi ve y e ars ?

Mr. TREA T . Y es,in the first fi ve ye ars .

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Chairman,I think we wi ll have to ge t th e figures

from th e Fish Commission on tha t . Now,on what do y ou base your

figures as to th e price in the last fi ve years of reciprocity and the fi rstfi ve years of duti able fi sh ?Mr. TREA T . D o you mean where did I ge t those fig ures ?

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 69

Mr. GA RD NER . Y es .

Mr. TREA T . A ll those figures tha t I have here , I would like to sayto th e committee , I go t from this Boston Fish Bureau . This BostonFish Bureau is a sta tistical organiza tion tha t has existed for a grea tmany years

,j ust simpl ga thering figures and facts wi th reference to

the producti on of salt sh in New England . A ll these figures I havehere are from the books and files of the Boston Fish Bureau

,and are

now open to any member of th e. committee,or anybody else, I suppose .

Mr. FORD NEY . Then ,as a fi sh dealer

,it does no t make any difference

to you whe ther the fi sh come from American or Canadian fishermen,

or Novo Sco tian fishermen ?Mr. TREA T . No , sir.

Mr. FO RD NEY . Y ou do no t care where they come from,as long as

you get your profit ?Mr. TREA T . No

,sir ; tha t is th e principa l thing . I am no t inter

ested in fishing men or fishing vesse ls .

Mr. FORD NEY . Tha t is th e genera l a ttitude of an importer, is it no t ?Mr. TREA T . No , sir.

Mr. FORD NEY . I think it is . I never found one that did not havethat attitude .

Mr. GA RD NER . A s I understood you ,under recipro city you h ad t o

p ay a higher price for fi sh than you h ad to p ay after th e reciprocitytreaty was abrogated . Why are you in favor of a reciprocity treaty

,

if that is th e case ?Mr. TREA T . I am in favor of th e reciprocity treaty because th e

experience of th e last fi ve years of th e reciprocity treaty showed thatthat was a period of very great pros erity t o th e who le business . Itwas not true of th e fishing vessels on y . While I have not any figures ,my memory go es back . I went into th e business in 18 67 and as a

young man of‘20 t o 30, th e years from 1 8 7 2 to 18 8 6 covered that

eriod of my life . I know that t h e business was prosperous and Iow that the number of firms engaged in that business was large .

I know that the amount of business was greater bo th in the numberof those employed and in po int of fi sh cured and shipped .

Mr. GA RD NER . I fear you did no t ca tch my question. Y ou are a

purchaser of fi sh which come into th e Boston market from Canadaand from th e vessels tha t come in at th e wharf

,of th e various kinds of

fi sh,and you tell us that under recipro city th e prices were higher and

you h ad to p ay more for your raw ma teri a l than you did after the reciprocity treaty was abo lished . Now

,I never saw any manufacturer

who desired t o ay more for h is raw material,and if reci

procity raises

the price of fi sii,why are you ,

a purchaser of fi sh , in avor of recirOCItypMr. TREA T . Because it is one of those peculiar things that you may

think strange . Here was where we were fair with our neighbors .

Our nei hb ors pros ered with us .

Mr. A RD NER . O it was because your ne ighbors were prosperous ?Mr . TREAT . No , sir; no t a t all. That is not my answer to that

question.

Mr. GA RD NER . Mr. Chairman,I wish thi s committee would call for

the figures from the U ni ted States Fish Commission as to the pri cesof fi sh in those years .

Mr. TREA T . I think the U ni ted States Fish Commission, if I mayb e allowed to say so , was no t in existence in those years .

70 BECIPBOC l l‘

Y W ITH C A N A D A .

Mr. GARD NER . Mr.Mille tt can probably inform us as‘

to that fact .Mr. MILLETT . I think Stephen J . Martin was agent in those years.

The CHA IRMA N . Y ou can ge t those figures at the bureau of

statistics .

Mr. GA RD NER . I would like to have all those figures . I thi nk thatMr. Millett

,who understands th e thing pretty well , would undertake

t o secure those fi ures and have them sent t o the commi ttee , as wellas th e statistics t at were referred t o while h e was testi fying .

Mr.MILLETT . If youwi ll h ave your clerk giveme th e(years you want

figures upon,I will undertake to ge t them for you an send them t o

you from th e department .

The CHA IRMA N . Find out just what perio d you want ,Mr. GA RD NER . Substantia lly, we want a ll the fi ures during the

re cipro city period and the figures since . That is w at you want , isit no t ? That will tell th e Who le story .

Mr. HILL . Y es .

The CHA IRM AN . Leave tha t informa tion w ith the clerk of the commi t tee

,and I think we can ge t it .

Mr. GA RD NER . Tha t wo uld b e my Ide a . Mr. Trea t , did you everhear ofWilcox’

s report ?Mr. TREA T . Y es .

0

Mr. GA RD NER . He was the specia l agent of th e Bureau of Fi sheries,was h e no t ?Mr. TREA T . I never knew exactly what h is re lation was with . the

U nited States Government .

Mr. GA RD NER . Did he no t go to Gloucester in the ear 1 8 8 5 , thelast year of the old trea ty , and did no t h is report say t a t Gloucesterwas suffering very gre a tly from the treaty

,and did he no t say that

they were looking forward with grea t anticipa tion t o th e revo cationof the treaty ?Mr. TREA T . Quite like ly .

Mr. GA RD NER . D o you know of any o ther offi cia l report on thatsituation except Wilcox’

s ?

Mr. TREA T . Y es .

Mr. GA RD NER . Wh at is tha t ?Mr. TREA T. From Province town .

Mr. GARD NER . And you think th e Bo ard ofTrade of Provincetownis in favor of recipro city ?Mr. TREAT . No , sir.

Mr. GA RD NER . To—day ?Mr. TREAT . No , sir, or was no t then .

Mr. GARD NER . I ca ll your a ttention t o the unanimous vo teMr. TREAT . It was no t then . It was unanimous in favor of abroga

gat ion of th e treaty .

Mr. GA RD NER . That is all I have t o ask th e gentleman .

Mr. MCCA LL . Can you furnish th e committee with the populationofGloucester at that time ?

Mr. TREAT . Twenty thousand and odd,is it no t ?

Mr. MCCA LL . But in 1 8 70, in th e. fi ve—year periods when th e treatywas in force

,and afterwards ?

o

Mr. GA RD NER . Gloucester and the surrounding towns would b e thefairest wa to take it ; Rockport and Gloucester; and then of coursethere is arb lehead .

Mr. MCCA LL . Y es .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 7 1

Mr. TREA T . I_

have one paper here which gives the catch in Newfoundland and in Canada in all these years

, which shows that theirfishery h as pract i ca lly been prospero us all this time .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Will the g entleman permit me to ask one or twoquestionsMr. TREA T . Y es

, sir.

Mr. FOR D N EY . Have y ou studied the e ffect of this proposed me asure , o ther than tha t which rela tes t o fi sh ?Mr. TREA T . NO

,sir.

Mr. FO RD NEY . Now,le t me ask y ou this : It is shown here tha t

our ex orts to Canada , amo unting to and our importsfrom anada , worth of goods are a ffected by this tre a ty

,

and a ve ry sma ll proportion of it is fi sh . Th e duty co lle cted byCanada on our go ods go ing into tha t country under th e present lawis and th e y propose to reduce tha t dutywhile th e co lle ct io n of duty b y us on a like amount of goods comingfrom Canada is and we reduce tha t dutywhich w ill le ave the dut y co lle cted b y Canada on our go ods go inginto tha t country almo st e qual t o t he amount tha t we co lle ct on

the ir goods c o ming from the country now . D o y ou no t be lieve itwould b e a pre t ty good bill for o ther pe ople than those interested inthe fi sh b usni essMr. TREA T . I sho uld have t o plead ignorance in regard to the

other indus trie s .

Mr. FORD NEY . A re y ou in favor of th e adoption of this tre a ty as

it h as be en writ te n or prepare d ?TREA T . I am in favor of th e tre a ty be cause of the opportunity

it gives the fi s h busine ss t o revive .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Then ,what ever th e sacrifice ,

if it was a sacrifice,

of all th e o th e r industries ment ioned in the re except the fi sh industry,

you would st ill b e in favo r of it ?Mr. TREA T . No

,sir ; I would no t . I ple ad ignorance on the o ther.

I resume that that h as be en prepared in the same careful manner inwfiich this h as been rep ared

—th e fi sh part of i t .

Mr. FO RD NEY . If ‘anada is get ting the best of th e de al according

t o the trea t y,would y ou st ill b e in favor of adopting i t ?

Mr. TREA T . It would make no difference to me whe ther CanadaWas ge t ting the best of th e de a l or no t

,if I was getting a fair thing

out of i t mys e lf .

Mr. FO RD NEY . There is every evidence of that,be cause vou said

you did no t care what became of the American fishermen .

Mr. TREA T . I b eg y our pardon .

0 0

Mr. We ll,I b eg your pardon . I asked y ou If It made

any difference t o y ou ,as a packer or de ale r

,whether you go t your fi sh

from an American or a Nova Scotian or a Canadian fisherman,and

you said it did no t .

Mr. TR EA T . Thug. is right .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Then you do no t care a snap about the Ameri canfisherman ?

Mr. TREA T . Oh, yes, I do . It is because I care so much for th e

Ameri can fi sherman tha t I want to see thi s go through . I am p erh a S

contradicting myse lf about be ing a prophe t,but

, judging from t e

past,it is fa ir forme t o assume

,if y ou ple ase , tha t prosperi ty would

dawn from th e very start and would increasingly come to us as the

years ro ll by .

7 2 REC IPRO C ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. FO RD NEY . P ardon me , le t me ask y ou thi s : A certa in amountOf fi sh is prepared in th is country for th e marke t . It i s suppli ed byth e American fishermen and if, by the remova l of the duty on fi sh

, a

large influx of fi sh would come from Canada and Newfoundland i t

would na tura lly injure the man tha t ca tches th e fi sh in Ameri canwa ters , would it no t ?Mr. TREA T . No

,sir.

Mr. FORD NEY . How can you figure tha t ou t ?Mr. TREA T . Because itmight open u more marke ts .

Mr. FO RD NEY . D o you mean it mig t make us e a t more fi sh ?

Mr. TREA T . No,sir; open up o ther marke ts .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Wh a t o ther marke t in tha t case can it open up ?Mr. TREA T . In Canada .

Mr. FO RD NEY . For fi sh ?

Mr. TREA T . Y es .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Would y ou give away th e marke t of

p ee/ple for the marke t of eop le in Canada ?r. TREA T . Is it no t apparent t i a t th e people are no t

salt fi sh ea ting peop le ?Mr. FO R D NEY . Wha t are you go ing to assume

,tha t tho s e

eop lepMr. TREA T . My de ar man

,excuse me , b ut we have e i own from

people a t th e time this o ld recipro ci ty trea ty was in effectto peop le now ,

and they are producing one—sixth as much,

in proportion . The fa ct is tha t th e people o f this country are no t

ea ting sa lt fi sh . S a lt fi sh a re consumed in w arm coun tries .

Mr. FO RD NEY . D o you prop ose to make them e a t mo re fi sh ?

Mr. TREA T . NO , sir ; I w ish I could .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Then wha t is your Obj ect in ge tting th e fi sh ofCanada ?Mr. TREAT . So tha t we may have a larger supply and have a

largermarke t .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Is it no t because you w ant a largermarke t in whichto buy fi sh ?

Mr. TREA T . No,sir ; it would do me no go od if I could no t open a

larger marke t t o se ll th em in .

Mr. FORD NEY . Is it no t true tha t it would open up a largermarketforyou to buy fresh fi sh , and is no t th a t wha t y o u w an t

I

Mr . TREA T . No,sir; I amno t for lowerprices ; Iam for a. larger trade .

Mr. FO RD NEY. D o you no t believe fore ign compe tition Would giveyou a largermarke t for sa lt fi sh ?Mr. TREA T . No , sir; there is this 13 years ’

ex crisnee tha t showswe had be tter prices and grea ter prosperity for shermen

,producers

and manufa cturers and de a lers .

Mr. FORD NEY . Then you think it wo uld incre as e the p rice ,do vou,

i fwe put fi sh on the fre e list from CanadaMr. TREA T . No t increase the price o ver this y ear

,be cause the testi

mony from the o ther side—if I may so re fer to them—shows tha t thepri ces were exorbitant .

Mr. FO RD NEY . I must say , my friend ,I can no t understand why

you favor free trade be tween this count ry and Canada in fi sh .

Mr. TREA T . I am sorry .

Mr. HILL . A s representing the Boston Fish Bureau, can you giveme any informa tion as t o why the ra te of duty on fi sh into Canada is

h igher than i t is in the U nited Sta tes

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74 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. PA TCH .If I remember correctly

,a lthough I would no t want to

state it positively , there was a ma jo ri ty of severa l hundred for Mr.

HILL . In Gloucester ?Mr. PA TCH . There may have been reasons why Mr. Draper d id not .

ge t more .

Mr. HILL . I wanted to know whe ther the pe ople ofGloucester, W i ththe ma tter before them,

h ad fa irly given a verdict on tha t ma tter,Mr. PA TCH . I do no t think tha t the Sta te e lecti ons h ad anything

t o do with th e fi sh question ,a lthough it was discussed .

HILL . D id Mr. Fo ss favor a duty on sa lt fi sh ?Mr. PA TCH . I do no t know , anything except free green fi sh .

Mr. R A ND ELL . What percentage of th e popula tion there i s adultma les ?Mr. PA TCH . Tha t is ra ther a hard que stion for me to answer.

Mr. RA ND ELL . Y ou seem to b e very we ll po sted abou t things in

general , there .

Mr. PA TCH . Of course i t would have been very e asy for me to ge tth e informa tion if it h ad o ccurred to

'

me . I think there are be tweenand I w ould no t w an t t o sta te tha t positive ly .

Mr. R A ND ELL . There might b e a very gre a t difference be tweenth e number of adults and those wh o vo ted .

Mr. PA TCH . Y es . O f course there are a considerable number whoare no t na turalized .

Mr. R A ND ELL . Tha t is the re ason I asked wha t percentage of the

are adult male s .

Mr. PA TCH . It would only b e a guess on my part . I think the

o ther sex predomina tes .

Mr. HILL . Then you think no inference could b e drawn from the

result o f the e lection as to the view s of th e people of Glouces ter on

this questionMr. PA TCH . No

,sir; no t a t tha t e le ction ; b ut of course I think

the p eo le as a who le are aga inst the tre a ty a s i t stands .

Mr. HILL . Y ou think th e people of Gloucester are aga inst thetre a tyMr. PA TCH . Y e s ; but there is a bona fi de opinion

,and a very

strong one , in favor of free raw materia l .Mr. FO RD N EY . P ardon me . my friend . for asking th e question ; I

would no t ask it except for th e fa ct tha t it is be ing tried t o b e made toappe ar here that t h e anticipation o f this trea ty h ad some th ing t o dowith th e result of the e lection last fa ll in Massachusetts . Th e St a t e ofNew Yo rk gave an overwhelming demo cra t ic ma j o rit y . D o vou

think free trade h ad anything t o d o with it'

7

Mr. P A TCH . No , sir: I think no t .

Mr. FO RD NEY . P ardon me fo r asking .

Mr. GA RD NER . If I might say a W o rd as t o tha t c ue st io n .this

proposition h as never b e en put square ly b e fo re the p o o p c ofGlo uccs~t er. O f course , Glouceste r is a g rc a t fish- pa cking mint , and if youput th e question .

“Will y o u h ave frc c g re en fi sh and pro tectedfinished products ,

o b vio us ly a lo t o f pe o ple will s a y y es ; and ofcourse we all know he re that p rmlucers of raw mate rial iii t he U nitedSta tes outnumbe r th e manufzu't ure rs . and there fo re we can notexpect th e manufac turers t o b e p ro t e cted if th e producers of rawmateri a l are no t to b e . That is no t understood in a municipa lity like

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 7 5

Gloucester. That is th e issue Mr. Foss has been presenting for a

number of years .

Mr. HILL . Did h e simply take th e position of favoring fre e. greenfi sh or free fi sh all the way through ?Mr. GA RD NER . Free green fi sh

,and he sa id no thing about the rest .

Is that correct ?Mr. PA TCH . Tha t is co rre ct .

Mr. FORD NEY . A re you sp eaking ofMr. Foss ?Mr. GA R D NER . Y es .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Why ,h e h as been published through th e newspapers

as being in favor of reciprocity with Canada on everything that grewon Canadian so il

,orwas imported in there .

Mr. GA RD NER . “T

e ll , but there is no t everybody that reads thosethings carefully ; and w e have o ften no ticed that a man

’

s p osition hasloca l shades of difference .

C

Mr

;1FORD NEY . He h as fought and labored for recipro city with

ana a .

Mr. GA R D NER . I h ad a j o int deba te with h im before the Massa

chuset t s Club on tha t question eight years ago .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Y ou know h im better than I do .

The CHA IRMA N . If you have an expert opinion on that gentleman’s

election there , perhaps you h ad better let it drop . Do es any o thergentleman desire t o b e heard on th e fi sh question ? Is there any o thergentleman here wh o desires now t o b e heard on any part of thisreciprocity question ?Mr. GA R D NER . By th e way ,

so far as po litica l evidences are con

cerned , I h ad a very,very larg e ma j ority in Gloucester

,and my posi

tion h as never been one on which there was any misapprehensionwhatever.

The CHA IRM A N . Th e committee will b e in executive session for a

few minutes .

A t o’clo ck p . In . th e commit t ee went into executive session .

(Th e fo llow ing 'etters and papers submitted by Mr. Wonson are

here printed in full in th e record . )

GLO U CESTER,MA ss . , February 1 , 19 1 1 .

Col. CHA RLES F . WO N SON , Washington ,D . C .

D EA R SIR : R egarding ma tters wh ich are now transp iring in Wash ington.

in wh i chGloucester is much interested ,

and in rep ly to your request formy Vi ews in wri tingregarding same , I wi ll try and give y ou as fair a statement as I can of th e actual conditions as I see th em

,endeavoring to throw aside any p ersonal b usiness interest in

the matter.

Th e recommenda tions to Congress so far as fi sh is concerned are.

so sweep ing tha t Ib elieve tha t th ere is no one in Gloucester wh o , if h e had th e privi lege ofmaki ng th elaw

, would have reciproci ty to go through under th e recommendati ons as presentedto Congress , th e reason b e ing tha t our Canadian neigh b ors ge t too much and ourselvestoo little b y th is prop osi tion .

Wh ile I b elieve th e ab ove sta tement to b e fully true , i t i s neverth e less a fact tha tthere is and has b een for some time p ast a very decided op ini on prevai ling In Gloucester that th ere sh ould b e some arrangement wh ereb y Gloucester

’s merch ants and

ackers mi h t ob ta in more lib eral sup p lies of stock_

with wh i ch to conduct th eirusiness . Shortages in th e sup p lies and very h igh pri ces h ave preva i led to a greater

extent than th e b usiness interests of th e ci ty would warrant , and th e packers haveb een ob liged e ith er to p ay very fancy prices or go w ithout , thus throwmg male andfemale emp loy ees out of work at times wh en th ey could b e emp loy ed qui te stead i lywere prop er supp lies of stock ob taina b le wi th wh i ch to do b usi ness .

Wh ile th e State camp aign was in progress last fall, a mass meeting of Glouce ster 9citizens was h eld at th e Ci ty Hall to d iscuss th e reci proci ty Issue , and b oth si des of

the question were h eard . For a good many y ears p ast , or unti l th e last few y ears ,

7 6 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA DA .

th e prep onderance of op inion in Gloucester regarding th e entrance of Canadian fi sh

to our orts free of duty had decidedly op p osed such a prop o si tion in any form.

A t tfibmass meeting in the city hall th e prop osi ti on was advanced tha t th e admission of green or

“raw product

”salt fi sh migh t b e a distinct b enefit to Gloucester,

and th e question was gone into quite thorough ly , and the domgs of th e mee ting were

well re orted in th e ub lic press .

Ourgresen t goverribr, Foss , during last fall’s camp ai gn ,In h i s sp eech a t Gloucester

came out squarely for“free gre en fi sh

,

”and told th e p eop le of Gloucester th at such

an arrangement would b e a d istinc t b enefit to Gloucester’

s b usmess men and lab orers,

as we ll as to real esta te values and wh arf prop erty i n general .

1

I think i t is a fair sta tement th at th e free green fi sh questi on was p aramount in the

minds of th e Gloucester vo ters during th e camp aign ,and th e op i ni on prevai led that

a vote forGov . Foss was a vote in th e direction of free gre en fi sh .

Wh ile th e mee ting a t th e city h all was not h e ld W i th th e i dea of getti ng votes forone candidate or anoth er, b ut simply for an op en pub li c di scussi on of th e reci proci tyquestion ,

i t was op enly sta ted after th e me e ting and duri ng th e rest of th e camp aigntha t th e meeting at th e ci ty h all h ad ch ang ed several hundred vo tes to Gov . Foss

wh ich were normally Repub lican . I can p ersonally i est i fy to qui te a numb er of

voters wh o said th at th ey h ad usually voted a R e pub li can ti cke t wh o sta ted op enlyth a t th ey would vo te forMr. Foss on election day . Th e result , as well known ,

was

th at Mr. D rap er, th e ,

Repub lican candidate ,carri ed th e c i ty b y only 253 votes , in a

c i ty which ordinarily was strongly Rep ub li can , often casti ng a b out 2 to 1 for th e Republican candidates . Th e p eople se emed to h ave done a good d eal of th i nki ng duringth e camp aign and th e result was not unexp e cted ,

i f one could Judge b y expresswns

ab out th e stree ts , sh op s , and wh arves previous to elec ti on day .

Th e term “free green fi sh

” 1refers , of course , to th e salt fi sh i n th e sta te as landed

b y our New England vessels , and a very much larger sup p ly of th i s kind of salt fi shis to my mind what Glouce ster h as stood seriously in need of for qui te a numb er of

years . Sh ortages in th e salt- fi sh sup p ly h ave b een entirely too frequent duri ng thelast decade to allow Gloucester’

s re tail merch ants and lab orers to longer submi tquietly to p resent conditions , if some more b eneficial arrangement to Gloucestercan b e ob tained . Tha t Gloucester needs some th ing different from present conditions I b elieve is qui te generally conceded b y Gloucester

’

s ci tizens , and I h op e thatth e p resent discussion may result in some arrangement more b eneficial to our fi sh

trade wi th out conceding altoge th er too much to our Canadian ne igh b ors .

I h onestly b elieve th at free green salt fi sh from Canada wi th a duty re ta ined on

th e manufactured fi sh would give Gloucester, as a wh ole , a lift ah e ad and would

not drive out Gloucester’s fish ing flee t , as seems to b e antici ated b y vessel owners

and master mariners . A large country and a growing p opu ation wi ll take care of

a very large amount of salt fi sh , and an oversupp ly of th e raw product seems entirelyout of th e question for th e y ears th at are to come .

I am aware th a t th is le tter considers th e question almost entirely from Gloucester’

s

standp oint ; b ut wha tever is done b y Congress , Gloucester sh ould h ave an op or

tunity to live and to do b usiness in h er old fi sh industry ,and I trust tha t th e i\ em

b ers of Congress wi ll try to give us as fair 9. ch ance as p ossib le to b uild up our fi sh

manufacturing b usiness , wh i ch seems to offer an op p ortuni ty of enlargement , pro

vided good sup plies of th e raw p roduc t are ob tainab le at all times .

I trust th ere may b e some oth er way for Gloucester to ob ta in th e free green fi sh

th an as p rop osed in th e rec iproci ty recommenda tions as th ey now exist .Trusting th e b est results may b e ob tained

,I rema in

,

Y ours,resp ectfully , W . O . A N D REWS .

GLO U C ESTER,February 1 , 19 1 1 .

Mr. CHA RLES F . WO N S ON,

Gloucester, Mass .

D EA R SIR : In rep ly to your inquiry as to my views on the fish ing si tuation ,Iwould

say that in my op inion wh ile dutiab le fi sh may b enefit a few it is injuring th e manyas far as th e fish ing industry as a whole is concerned . But fi ve firms h ere , as far asI know ,

are in favor of a duty on all grades of fi sh . Th ese p arties are in control ofth e financial situation h ere ,

b e ing p rac tically in control of th e b anks , and in thisway h ave quite a followin S inc e. th e merger of several firms some years ag o thisC i ty h as

gone b eh ind rap i ly . A b out two - th irds of th e wh arves are unoccup ied and

gow g to ecay . Th e p opulation is decreasing rap idly .

1 Green fi sh : Fish as they come from th e ocean,simp ly dressed , sp li t op en ,

andpreserved in salt .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 7 7

U nder the years of reciproci ty b usiness was b ooming h ere . Fish came here directfrom th e Banks . A ll wharves were full of fi sh and many p eople occup ied in curingand pre aring formarke t . Wh ile I am no t so sure. tha t free dri ed fi sh would help us,it woul b e an improvement on th e present system, wh ich is practically a mono olyof a very few p eop le . U nder reciprocity b efore I h ad fourwharves occup ied wherenow have not b usmess for one . Th e present system is making a b ack numb er ofGloucesterand any ch ange , In my op in i on , will b e an improvement .

1 ours, very truly ,

STA NWO OD Co . ,

J OHN J . STA NWC O D .

GLO U CESTER, MA ss . , February 1 , 19 1 1

Mr. CHA RLES F. WO NSO N,

Gloucester, Mass .

D EA R SIR : Ih ave b een intima tely connec ted wi th th e fish ing b usiness ofGloucesterfor40years . b oth as an op era tive fi sh erman ,

cap tain and ownerofvessels , and handlinth e fi sh in all i ts different ways . and since th is reciproc i ty question h as come uphave talked wi th fish ermen ,

men on th e wh arves and p eop le whom I h ave me t on th estreet , and I am firmly convinced tha t among th ese p eop le th ere is a strong feelingin favor of th e trea ty .

Very truly , yours, Cap t . RoBERT N . MILLER .

The records in the Gloucestercustomh ouse sh ow that th e fish ing tonnage ofGloucester, on th e 3oth day of Sep temb er in each year from 1 8 72 to 19 10

,b oth inclusive , was

as follows :

Total gross Fish ingYears . Vessels. tonnage . tonnage.

1 Over20tons. 2 U nder20tons.

7 8 RECIPROCI'

I‘Y W ITH CA NA D A .

(Exh ib its submitted by Mr. Treat z)

NEWFO U ND LA ND CO D FISH CA TCH .

Years. Years.

o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

U ND ER RECIPR OCI’I‘Y .

NUID b er OfTotalmwh

vessels enfi gured in

gaged inN ewY earS.

England inqumtals of112 poundsth e cod

fi sh ery .

each .

U ND ER PR OTECTION .

(A t the request of Mr. Hill, the fo llowing Treasury De cision is

made part of the record of the he aring . It is from No . 4 5 .vo lume

19 , of“Tre asur Decisions unde r the customs

,internal revenue , and

o ther laws ,”

pu hshed Thursday, November 10,

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 79

(T . D . 31028—G. A .

A MERICA N FISHERIES

(Fish imported fromthe shores of th e treaty waters ofNewfoundland admitted to free entr as productsof American fi sheries. The term “ American fi sh eries " de fi ned . U nited States Genera A praisers,New York, Novemb er 7 . 1910. In th e matter of protests 4 11276 , etc . , of W . B . B edd ing at a. againstth e assessment ofduty b y th e collectorofcustoms a t th e port of Boston. Before Board 3 , Waite, Somervxlle, and Hay , general appraisers. )

WA ITE , General A ppraiser: Th e se p ro tests arise over th e im ortation of fi sh whichwere caugh t in wha t is known as th e

“ trea ty wa ters”

off the is and ofNewfoundland

pursuant to th e provisions of th e tre a t y of 1 8 1 8 b e tween Grea t Brita in and th e U ni tedtates . The fi sh were imp orted in to the U ni ted Sta tes after the tariff ac t of A ugust 5 ,1909 , went into effect . They were assessed under p aragra ph 273 of said law, whichreads as follows :

“273 . fi sh

,fresh , smoked , dried , sa lted ,

ickled,frozen , p acked in ice , or o ther

wi se pre ared for preservation ,no t sp ec ial

riy p rovided for in th is sec tion,three

fourths 0 one cent p er pound ; fi sh , skinned or b oned, one and one - fourth cents er

pound ; mackerel, h alib ut, or sa lmon ,fresh

, p ickled , or salted , one cent p er pounIt is claimed b y the imp orter th a t th e y sh ould b e admi tted free under th e provi

sions of ei th er paragrap h 567 or 639 of sa id law . Paragraph 567 grants free entry to“ Fish

,fresh , frozen , or acked in ice , caugh t in th e Grea t Lakes orotherfresh wa ters

b y ci ti zens of th e U nited ta tes , and all oth er fi sh ,th e p roducts ofAmerican fish eries.

”

Paragraph 639 . in so far as p ertinent h ere to ,

reads as fo llows :639 . sp ermace ti , wh ale , and o th er fi sh o ils of American fisheries, and

all fi sh and oth er produc ts of such fish eries ;From th e ab ove quota tions i t wi ll b e seen th a t th e last-named p aragraph s provide

for th e free entry of fi sh caugh t wh ere th e se were caugh t in case th ey are the productofAmerican fish eries . Th e only question for us to decide h ere is wh eth er th ey comewith in tha t ca tegory . Evi dence was introduced a t th e h earing which sh ows th efollowing to b e th e circumstances under wh ich th ese fi sh were caugh t :One Cap t . Carter, ownerand master of th e vessel Sarah C . Wharf, duly documented

under th e laws of the U ni ted Sta tes , had ma intained h er in th e wa ters ab out th e trea tycoast ofNewfoundland for a numb er of years previ ous to th e fall of 1909 . D uring th etime wh en these fi sh were caugh t th e vessel h ad on b oard a crew of fi ve men , ofwhomthe temporary cap tain and one o th erman were c i tizens of th e U ni ted Sta tes . Th evessel was used as a b ase of sup p lies and for th e use of th e master in th e conduct ofhis op erations wh ile ca tching th e fi sh . Th e fi sh , however, were not caugh t from th isvessel ; in fact , th ey were no t ever on b oard th e vessel. Th ey were caugh t b y c i tizens ofNewfoundland , or of th e p rovi nces , b y means of tackle and app liances wh ichwere in some cases supp lied b y th e men th emselves and in some cases b y th e masterof the vessel, who was resp onsib le for and conduc ted th ese fish ing opera tions . Hesays tha t from $800 to was invested b y h im in such tackle and a p liances forcatch ing th e fi sh . Th e men wh o caugh t th e fi sh were emp loyed on di erent b ases.

Some of th em were paid b th e p ound , according to weigh t after th e fi sh had b eendressed or sp li t . Some of them,

h owever, were emp loyed on a time b asis at so muchp er day for ca tch ing the fi sh . Payment was also made on th e same b ases for th e i rservices in curing th e fi sh . Th ese fi sh were cured a t various

(places along th e sh ore ,

which were provided b th e wi tness (‘

arter, th e mas ter an owner of th e vessel.The evidence does not isclose h ow comp le te th ese curing sta tions were ; i t is fair toassume , however, that th ey consisted of necessary app liances, such as sheds , racks,rece

ptacles for receiving th e fi sh and offal, and p laces for drying th e fi sh . We have

not ad our a ttention called to any defini tion of a fish ery wh i ch has b een recogni zedb y th e courts . Th e ordinary defini tion as gi ven b y th e dic tionaries i s :

“Fish ery . l . Th e b usiness of ca tch ing fi sh or any aqua tic animals ; th e fish ing

industry ; 2 . A p lace wh ere fi sh or oth er aqua tic animals are or may b etaken regularly ; fish ing grounds . 3 . Th e b uild ings and equipment generally re

quired in any particular fish ing b us ine ss ; a fish ing estab lishment . Standard D i ctionar

“Fig

r

hery . 1 . The b usiness of catch ing fi sh ; th e fish ing industry . 2 . In law , a

t i h t of fishing in certain wa ters . 3 . A p lace wh ere fi sh are regularly caugh t , or0 erproduc ts of the sea orrivers are taken from th e wa ters b y fish ing , d ivmg , dredging, e tc . Century D ictionary .

”

n our judgment three th ings are necessary to consti tute a fish ery W i th in th e meaning of the statute : Th e fish ing grounds ; a p lace for curin the fi sh or

gre

garing th em

for th e marke t , if th ey are not marketed as taken from t e water; an t e necessarytackle and ap pliances for catch ing th e fi sh

,such as lines, hooks, nets , b oats, e tc .

We th ink th e testimony shows tha t a fish ery was maintained b y Cap t . Carter on th e

8 0 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

treaty coast at th is time . It ap p ears h e h ad b een engaged in th is b usiness on th esegrounds for several y ears .

Having arrived at th is conc lusion,th e next step is t o d e termi ne Wh e th er i t was

an American fish ery . It h as b e en h e ld b y th e Treasury D ep artment under similarlaws th at it was not ab solutely ne ce ssary th at th e fi sh sh ould all b e caugh t , h andled ,and cured b y Americans . No te T . D . 7 933 and T . D . 1058 8 , wh ere i t was stated thatfi sh caugh t b y th e crew of an American vessel licensed for th e fish eri es , W i th th e

assistance ofmen and ne ts h ired in Newfoundland for th at p urp ose ,would b e free of

duty as th e product of American fish erie s . To th e same effect , see also T . D . 28 768 .

A nd in G. A . 54 53 (T . D . 24 738 ) it was held th at fi sh taken a t th e Bay of Islands,

Newfoundland ,b y an American vessel, und er a license from th e Canad ian Govern

ment,wi th th e assistance ofmen

,b oats , and gear h ired for th e purp ose , are entitled

to free entry und er p aragrap h 626 ,tari ff ac t of 18 97

,as th e

“

produc t of an Americanfish ery .

” We note,in p assing , th at th e arb itra t ion court a t Th e Hague h as recently

d ecided th a t inhab itants of th e U ni ted States,wh i le exerc ising th e li b erty to take

fi sh on th e treaty coasts,may emp loy as memb ers of th e ir fish ing crews p ersons not

inh ab i tants of th e U n ited States .

Wh ile none of th ese fi sh were actually caugh t b y th e manua l lab or of Americans,still th e op p ortuni ty ,

funds, p lace ,

and ap p liances necessary for th e op era tion to b ecarried on were furnish ed b y an American with American money . Th e wh ole enterpri se was conducted and carried on b y an American wh o was resp onsib le for th eop era tions . Th e law was intended

,in our judgment , to favor op era tions carried on

b y Ameri cans in th is way and to encourage th e taking of fi sh in th e trea ty waters .

We are of th e op inion ,th erefore ,

tha t th is p lant , carried on ,fostered

,and mainta ined

as i t was,sh ould b e h eld to b e an American fish ery , th e p roducts of wh ich should b e

admi tted to th e U nited Sta te s free of duty under th e existing law . Th e protests areth erefore sustained .

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/join

8 2 REC IPROCITY W ITH CA N AD A .

O ur Sta te L eg isla ture , North D ako ta ,in th e last few days has

passed a very strong reso lution aga inst th e enactment of thi s pro

osed recipro city trea ty . I have here a copy of th e Fargo Forum,a

ga ily paper published in my home city,Fargo , N . D ak.

,whi ch

shows the price of wheat in Winnipeg ,on th e o ther S i de of the

line from us,and th e price in Minne a

gg lis

,on thi s Si de , and upon

th e day this paper was go tten out,W

'

ch wa s February 1,wheat

was worth 1 2 cents more a bushe l on this side of the hne than i t was

on the o ther side flax was worth 2 5 cents a bushel more on this sidethan on the o ther; and barley and o a ts were worth more on this sideOf th e line in the same

proportion .

I want to empha tica l ygro t est

,SO far as i t li es W i thi n my power to

do so,aga inst this propose trea ty . The backbone of th e R epublican

party for 50 years h as been th e farmers out upon the farms,and if

wha t pro tection the farmers have for wha t they ra ise sha ll b e takenfrom them

,the farmers must naturally swing t o the o ther side and

w ill insist that the tariff U pon manufactured products sha ll b eremoved .

0

Th e CHA IRM A N . Would you like to have thi s gentleman’

s letterread -2

Mr. HA NNA . All right ; I am very W illing .

Th e CHA IRMA N . Wh at th e committee want t o he ar i s some thingnew on th e subject . This is a matter that h as been thrashed overfor th e last 50 ye ars , and espe cia lly for th e last 20 or 30 ye ars , theduty on agricultural products , and you have introduced your friendhere and he is very desirous of having this letter which h e h as presented read t o the committee , and if you w ill give way th e letterwill now b e read by th e clerk of the committee .

Mr. HA NNA . V ery we ll ; I am quite w illing .

(Th e clerk of th e committee here read th e le tter referred to,as

fo llows :)WA SHrNGTON ,

D . C . , J anua ry 8 0, 1 9 1 1 .

To th e h onorab le George T . O liver, U n i ted Sta tes Sena te ,Wash ington ,

D . C ,and

J ames J . Hill,esq . , St . Paul, Minn , p art ownerand full controllerof th e two northern

transcontinental railway lines leading fromMinnesota to th e Pac ific Ocean and the

many“feeders

”or b ranch lines of sai d rai lroads running into northwestern Canada .

GENTLEMEN : I read in yesterday’

s Sunda p ap ers b oth of yourviews or statementsin regard to th e new tariff treaty W ith Cana a now p end ing in Congress .

A s I understand the situation , Senator O liver is op p osed to granting free trade

for th e products of th e farmers and Mr. Hillwants all duties removed , so faras th ey re

la te to th e produc ts of the farm.

In otherwords , Senator O liver is Op p osed to and Mr. Hi ll is in favorof th e new treatywi th Canada .

Senator O liver, on Saturday nigh t a t P ittsb urg , is rep orted to h ave said ,Wh ile ad

dressing“seven hundred or more memb ers of th e Y oung Men

’s Rep ub lican Tariff

Club,

as follows :

FA RMER S WILL BE LO SER S .

A s a result of th is , therefore , ourmanufacturers, merch ants , and industrial lab orerswill p rofit a t th e exp ense of th e farmers . The farming interest alwa s has b een one of

th e great‘

b ulwarks of the Repub lican Party , and wh ile I natura l h esi tate ab outantagoni zmg any important measure favored b y the administration of

,

President Taft ,I W i ll have to exp eri ence a change of h eart b efore I vo te to deprive one class of our

industries of th at protection to wh ich th e y are justly e nti tled under all th e th eoriesand prac tices of th e Repub lican Party for the b enefit of others .

”

A s a resident Of North D akota, and quit e extensively engag ed in farming , I write

t o thank Senator Oliver for h aving uttered th e fore go ing sentiments . Y our positionsh ows that you not only correctly re pre sent th e grea t Sta te of Pennsylvania ,

b ut of

th e whole country .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 8 3

Th e farmers,a nd more esp ec ially th ose re s id ing in th e Northwest , are entitled to

the same degree of tari ff protection for th e results of th e 14 h ours “a day

’s work

”

onthe farm as th ose wh o raise cotton . tob acco , sugar, and rice

,south of us ; also th e same

as th e producer of o il, coal, minerals , and materials of all kinds , including manufactured articles used b y th e p eop le .

I b elieve that all unb iased p eop le not controlled or influenced b y selfish p ersonalinter

gsts W i ll ap p laud and thank vou for th e efforts that you are making for all th e

peop e .

Wh ile th e duty of 25 cents a b ush e l on Wh eat does not make that di fference in th eprice realized b etween th e gra in growers of th e two countries wh en th ey sh ip fromtheir own p orts direct t o Europ e , y et at all times in th e Northwest th e farmer on our

side of th e d ivid ing line realizes from 10 cents t o 15 cents p er b ush el more th an hisneighb or on th e oth er side of th e line . A nd th is ap p lies not only to wh eat , b ut moreesp ecially to b arley suitab le for b rewing purp oses . Rememb er that nearly all ourb arley used in th e U nited States is produced mostly in th e West and northwest ofour country , and comes in more d irec t comp etition than any oth er kind of gra in withthe

“sh ort crop season

”

of northwestern Canada .

Barley ma tures from 20 to 30 days earlier than wh ea t and qui te often th e earlyfrosts of northwestern Canada affects th e wh eat crop , b ut never ca tch es th e b arleycrop . If you remove th e 30 cents p er b ush el tari ff from b arley ,

then northwesternCanada wi ll flood th e U ni ted States wi th ch eap b arley , mostly for our b rewers . Of

spurse i t may reduce th e price of b eer, e tc . ,

th en you wi ll have th e temp erance p eopleter you .

Th e ub lic must rememb er th a t wh ile th e U ni ted States has many million acres ofub lic ands left , ye t only a sma ll amount of i t is arab le or sui tab le for “

h omesteadswi thout exp ensive irriga tion . A b ou t all th e choicest arab le pub lic land h as b een“ taken up

”b y ac tual se ttlement during th e last 30 y ears .

Conse uently land seekers wh o go to th e northwest looking for lands must purchasea t a goo price from those who h ave acquired ti tle or cross th e line in to th e grea tnorthwe

fgt terri tory of Canada and take up free orpurchase th e ch eap er lands and pay

our taxi

Many of ourgood American ci tizens h ave crossed over th e line . Fifte en th ousand ofthem last year b ecame dissa tisfied w i th farming cond itions in northwestern Canada ,principally b ecause of th e ir home marke t for th e products of th e farm and b eing shutout of our marke t b y reason of (tari ff) our tax ,

and h ave re turned b y way ofMinnesota , North D ako ta ,

Montana , and Washington to th e U ni ted Sta tes . Th is tax or

tariff on all products of th e Canad ian farmers h elps or causes th e return of our own

good ci tizens and th e irwealth , amoun ting to millions of dollars .

I am a farmer and have resided in North D akota for more than 30 y ears . Th echoicest availab le lands sui tab le for farming wi th out b eing irrigated are ab out takenup and occup ied .

Thus you wi ll understand wi th 25 cents p er b ush el tax on wh eat t o start wi th th eland seeker orpurch aserwi ll h esi tate a long time b efore locating or purchasing land innorthwestern Canada . Th e market facili ties of eastern Canada for exp ort shipmentsare more like or nearly equal wi th our own . Y et that does not h elp th e northwesternpart ofCanada . Y ou must also rememb er that th e arab le quanti ty of lands forwh eatfarming purp oses in Canada are ab out equal to th e remaining wh eat—raising land inour own country .

Only a few years ago land in North D akota was se lling from $15 to $20p er acre , b utnow land sells very readily at a pri ce from $40 to $75 p er acre in nearly all parts of our

State,and th is increase in pri ce is caused princip ally from th e fact th at our ch oi ce

pub lic land sui tab le for farmi ng wi th out irri gation is occup ied and wh enO

th e landpurchaser comes, ra th er th an go over th e line into Canada and take free pub li c land or

purchase ch eap land wi th a fixed incumb rance in th e shap e of tari ff on every th ingproduced ,

th ey not only h esi tate b ut refuse t o go , th erefore we get a good pri ce for ourland and keep b oth th e ci tizen and h is money in our own country .

Wh en you remove all incumb rance , tax ,or tari ff, on imp orted farm products, then

youwi ll reduce th e price ofland in th e U ni ted States and more esp ecially i n th e northwestern p art , in th e aggregate—many , yes , very many mi llions of dollars—and you

will lose hundreds of thousands of our good American citizens wi th th e vast amount ofmoney and p ersonal prop erty th ey take with th em, going to th e ch eap lands of thatvas t terri tory in northwestern Canada . A re y ou wi lling and ready for thi s?Woe to th e offi ce seeker, so far as th e farmers of our country , and more esp eci allythose residing in th a t ch ain or line of Sta tes b ordering on or near Canada and th e

Northwest—running from Massachuse tts on th e A tlantic to Californi a on th e PaC i fi c

Ocean—are concerned , if h e supp orts th is trea ty .

D o you see ? If you do not , you may realize it at th e next electi on .

8 4 REC IPROCITY W ITH CA N A D A .

J AMEs J . HILL , ESQ.

I clip th e following from th e Wash ingtonSunday Star:PHILA D ELPHIA , PA . ,

J anuary 28 .

—Th e North American Wired J ames J . Hill,

askin for an express ion of op inion on th e prop osed recip roc i ty trea ty W i th Canada.

Mr. ill replied as follows :‘Th e prop osed reciproc ity agreement b e tween Canada and

-

th e U n i ted States is a

measure of true statesmansh ip . Intelligen t ci tizens and pub li c men ap prove i t . It

is mainly opp osed b y th e demagogue .

’

Th e p eop le of tha t part of th e Northwest through whi ch the transp orta ti on linesth a t Mr. Hill in p art owns and wholly , ei th er direc tly or indirec tly , controls have ah igh regard forh is sagaci t energy , and grea t ab ili t froma b usiness standpomt . The

results of h is work in b uilding one (the Great Nort ern ) of th e grea t transcontinentallines ofrailroads on the north ern (D ominion of Canada ) b oundary line of ourcountry ,wi th i tsmany b ranches as

“feeders running up into northweste rn Canada , has b een

ofvast b enefit , b o th financially and forp ersonalcomfort . A nd Iknow,as one of them

,

th a t we all fully reali ze and apprecia te wh a tMr. Hill h as done forus , and we are morethan p leasesd—ih fac t , we re joi ce to learn tha t whi le Mr. Hi ll

'

has done a vast amoun tofgood in aiding in developing th e country for th e p eop le ofMinneso ta ,

North D akota ,

South D akota , Montana , and the ad joining States to th e Pacific Ocean, tha t heh as b een ersonally rewarded , having accumula ted many mi llions of dollars for h imself and a so for th ose direc tly associa ted wi th h im. His wealth is only a jus t rewardfor h is foresigh t , intelligent work, and un tirin energy . Wh enever b e induced or

caused a man or family to loca te and cultiva te e land wi th in a certain radius of themany railroads tha t h e has caused to b e b ui lt in tha t region of the coun try h e reali zedtha t th e only outle t for tha t p roduct to marke t was over h is roads , and of course Mr.

Hill was develop ing th e country b y help ing the farmer to take his grain to marketover h is line of ra i lroads .

Th e extent of the land sui tab le forfarming in the grea t northwestern p art ofCanadais no t fully reali zed b y many of our eop le .

Th ey h ave in northwestern Cana a , including Bri tish Columb ia , as many acres ofland suitab le for raising wh ea t , b arley ,

flax, and oats

,tha t has not b een in part ex

h ansted b y continuous farming as we have .

They now raise ab out b ush els of grain,and in th e Very nearfuture will

raise many hundred million more b ush els each year. Th ey have b ut one local market—Winni eg

- wi th only th e eas tern A tlan tic coast outle t very many hundreds ofmiles away or th e large art of northwestern Canada , and as long as th e fence or tariffwall b uilt along several t ousand miles of th e b order is kep t up th e p rice of b oth landand grain wi ll b e h igh er in our country than i t is in Canada .

D uluth , th e grea t sh ipp ing oint at th e “h ead of th e Lakes, to th e Eas t

,and then

to European marke ts—and inneapolis , th e grea test milling center in th e world formaking flour—b oth in Minnesota—are the most profitab le marke ts for northwesternCanada , provi ded thi s new trea ty is ratified .

MR . HILL’s BU SINESS PROPO SITION .

Pull down th is wall—th is fence—b y taking off th e tariff, and th en all of the manymillion b ush els of grain and all other (eu h i s) of the products of th e Canad ian farmwill seek th e b est (D uluth and Minneapolis marke ts in the western p art ofourcountry .

Of course , th e man or se t ofmen , or corpora tion wh o owns or controls ab out all thetransportation (railroads) routes fromNorthwestern Canada to D uluth and Minneapolis,Wi ll no doub t favor taking off th e tariff—to induce th e sh ip p ing over th ese railroads.

Even wi th my limited knowledge—b e ing a farmer—o f th e present aggregate amountin dollars of th e fre

igh t ch arges ormoney received b y th e carriers of the commoditi es

b e tween Canada an our own country , I can imagine and fully realize that when youremove the fence—the “

stone wall —now existing and adop t reciproci ty as providedi n th e p endi ng treaty b e tween th e two countries , tha t you will th en enhance , yes,doub le th e income

,and greatly increase th e value of all the stock and b onds issued

gyarai lroad compani es doing a traffic b usiness b etween Canada and the U ni ted

8 .

The p eople who invest the irmoney in such transp ortation enterprises have a righ tto , and ough t to , receive a good and fa ir income . Such improvements are not onlyvaluab le , b ut most of th em are ab solutely necessary to th e prosperi ty of our country .

Y e t we farmers—among ourselves- talk th e matter over some th ing like this : Whysh ould our law makers remove our tari ff p ro tection,

thus lower our (farmers’) incomeand there b y , b o th ind i re c tly and d irec tly , increase th e income of all the stock andb ondholders of th ese transportation comp anies, when in fact the most of th em—the

REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 8 5

owners—reside in Europe , and to wh om our good , hard - earned , mostly Americanfarmers’money is sent . If th e American

peop le as a wh ole were in any way b enefited

b y this extra amount of income rece ived y our corp orations instead of i ts b e ing sp entin Europ e , i t would at leas t b e some , alth ough qui te remote , consolation .

Iwill take th e chance of b eing classed b y Mr. Hill as a farmer “demagogue , b y

b eing someth ing like h imself, to wi t , sh outing for th e tariff, b ecause i t will not onlyhelp th e country as a wh ole , b ut will at th e same time h elp me financially ,

as farmerand landowner. Iwillno t

,h owever, designate Mr. Hill as a “

demagogue b ecause h e ,as owner and controller of th e transp ortation lines , may want to remove th e tax or

ta riff so that h is lines can h andle th e goods . Th at is h i s b usiness affair.

I am qui te anxious to learn wh at course th e “calami ty howlers

”in th e good (half

century ) old Repub lican Party wh o want“lower

” tariffwill say ,now th at Presid ent

Taft has put i t up to th em . Will th ey take th e med icine orwill th ey again come b ack,

join th e good , th e true , th e fai th ful b elievers to th e final end . It may b e a b i tter p ill .

If they wi ll b e b rave and take i t we migh t“kill th e fatted calf.

Very resp ectfully ,C . W. BU TTZ , Bu ttzvi lle, N . D ak.

The CHA IRM A N . A re there gentlemen who desire t o b e heard on th e

barley or malt question thi s morning ? I am informed tha t Mr.

Stafford’

s people w ere t o b e here on th e tra in,and they will

get up here as soon as they can . Is there anyone else t o b e heardon this subj ect ?Mr. FO RD NEY . Mr. Cha irman

,if y ou please , I have here a letter

from the Na tional A sso cia tion of Lumber Manufacturers , asking fora hearing , and sta ting tha t Thursday would b e th e earliest possibleday they could ge t the ir people here , and earnestly requesting an

opportuni ty t o b e heard before this committee a cts u on this bill,and if they are go ing t o b e given a he aring they must now it now ,

in order to get the ir peop le here by that time .

The CHA IRM A N . Mr. Fordney,are there any new facts that have

occurred since th e very fu ll hearing of two years ago ?

Mr. FO RD NEY . They cla im that th e conditions in th e lumber mar

ket have so changed that they fee l they ought t o have a hearing inthis very important matter.

Mr.HILL . “Thy can we no t hear Mr. Hines ? He is th e largest

lumberman in th e U nited States , and h e is here now .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Mr. Hines is th e ent leman who sent me this com

muni cat ion ,and I would b e very g ad t o have you hear What h e h as

t o say about this .

Mr.HILL . I have known Mr. Hines for a great ma ny years , and

I think h e possesses all th e information that th e asso ciation can

w e us .gMr. FOR D NEY . Mr. Hines h as a great dea l of information on this

subject,but I think there are o thers in th e lumber business wh o have

some information that h e h as no t , and I think they ought t o b eheard also .

STATEMENT OF EDWARD HINES , OF CHICAGO , ILL. , PRESID ENT

OF THENATIONAL LUMBER MANU FA CTU RERS’A SSOCIATION .

Mr. Hi NEs .I j ust want fi ve minutes ; and I would like to answer

the gentleman’

s que stions .

In th e first place , gentlemen ,th e experience. we h ave h ad in suffer

ing the reduction of 3 7 % p er cent w ithin the past ye ar in our lumberduties is such tha t I would no t a t tempt , from th e actua l p racti ca lexperience , t o place th e proper informa tion before this body . The

Pacific co ast should b e represented here . It w ill take four days for

8 6 RECIPRC CITY W ITH CA N A D A .

th e representa tives t o come h ere from th e P acific co ast . They are

now on the way .Hence ,

Thursday is th e e arli est po ssible da te on

which we could have them here .

Y ou say ,

“any new fa cts ,

” Mr. Cha irman . A gre a t many state

ments that were made before th e Ways and Me ans Commi ttee byo

our

various members were seriously uest ioned by th e opposi ti on . Sincetha t da te we h ave h ad th e actua? experience of th e results of thi s cutof 37 7} p er cent in th e duty . They are no t suppo sition or theory ;they are fa cts . We wish an opportuni ty t o place before you a statement of th e facts , and the results tha t have o ccurred under which wehave suffered ,

from th a t reduction of 37 7} p er cen t . We do no t feeltha t this so—called “

snap judgmen t ” is a fair way t o tre a t this greatindustry represented by more than manufacture rs in the

U nited Sta tes .

Th e CHA IRM A N . Y ou know wha t tho se facts are ?

Mr. HINES . No , Mr. Chairman ; I do no t .

Th e CHA IRMA N . We will hear from you now as to wha t you knowabout tho se facts .

Mr. HINES . In th e first placeThe CHA IRMA N . The ma tter of th e o ther hearing wi ll b e taken u

pbefore we adjourn ,a t 12 o

’clo ck , in executive session ; but we woullike t o hear from y ou now . I do no t thi nk we could have a betteropportuni ty .

Mr. HINES . I wish t o ca ll a ttention to one very peculi ar and signi fi cant fact , which h as a strong bearing on this question ,

in th e caseof pulp wood . A provi sion is made that pul wood in th e raw statecan b e imported from Canada free of duty . n the ca se of lumber itis left out . Now ,

I want t o ca ll your attention t o thi s one im ort ant

fact . North of Minneso ta , in th e Ra iny L ake di strict of anada ,there are b illions of fee t of pine timber ; th e last pine forest left inthi s country . A ll of tha t timber can b e taken and manufacturedbetter in Minne so ta than in Canada . Th e R ainy L ake R iver runsinto th e northern part o f Minne so ta and drains that grea t tract oftimber land .

The provision in th e re cipro city treaty makes it ne cessary for thattimb er t o b e manufactured in Canada . Why no t open the samedoor that th e pulp people have

,and have tha t timb er taken across

into Minneso ta,a cross th e so - called imag inary line ,

down th e Ra inyR iver

,and manufactured in northern Minneso ta

,manufactured by

American lab orers, fed b y American farm produc t s Y e sav there is nore ason

,if you are leg islating for American labor and American farm

products,Why ,

therefore,th e raw ma teria l should no t b e a llowed to

come over into the U nited States and b e manufactured here . If youwant che aper lumber—and you say you can ge t it in Canada cheaperthan in th e U nited Sta tes

,and the consumer w ill b e b enefi t ed—why

no t trave l the stra ight channe l and le t that timb er come across iiith e raw state and b e manufactured in th e mills now existing on theAmeri can side of th e line by American labor

,fed b y th e products of

Ameri can farms,a t a lower price ? One of th e comp an ies of which

I am res ident , th e St . Cro ix Manufacturing Co . , h as a large mill ,and i t as expended a ha lf a million do llars in it s mill plant in

‘Ninton,Minn . Winton, Minn ,

is lo ca ted just a few miles across the linefrom Canada . Naturally , along na tural lines , along w a terways

,sev

eral b i lli on fee t of that grea t body of pine timber,th e last body of

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

timber left in the country , should come to Minneso ta . That timberwill come to Minneso ta a t the cheapest possib le cost and it can b emanufactured by the American mi lls and the laborers employedcan b e fed by th e farm products taken right from the State of Minneso t a . On th e contrary , under th e provisions of this reciprocitytreaty , if it go es in to effect , that timb er can no t b e manufactured inthat State . It is no t a question of cost . It can no t b e taken fromCanada and brought here until after it is manufactured—manufactured by Canadians , who will b e fed by Canadian farm roducts .

Now , tha t is just one important practica l question that want toplace before y ou gentlemen .

Mr. CLA RK . Mr. Hin es , if that thing was changed would you b ein favor of that trea ty then ?Mr. HINES . Mr. Clark , answering that uest ion

,I would say y es .

If, in th e judgment of you gentlemen,w 0 are th e judges in this

case , it would appear that th e American consumer c an get cheaperlumber, then I would say I would b e in favor of tha t proposition

,

coupled w ith this propo sition ,allow ing th e timber t o b e brought t o

th e U nited States and manufa ctured here .

Mr . CLA RK . I know ,b ut y ou do no t answer y es or no .

Mr. HINEs . Some questions are retty hard to answer directly,

yes or no . I think my answer is,t ough , practically, y es .

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou do no t cla im that you suffer by reason of thisduty of 3 7 % p er cent on lumber, do you ?Mr. HINES . IVe have suffered very seriously from it .

Mr. CLA RK . Is it no t abso lutely true that you put up th e price oflumber before we go t out of town ?Mr. HiNEs . A bso lute ly the contrary is true

,Mr. Clark . Lumber

has been go ing down for three years . A t th e present t ime it is thelowest , in my j udgment

,in comparison with the co st of labor and

farm products , tha t it h as been in‘

2 5 years . Tha t fact can b e subst ant ia t ed . Any sta tement tha t I make here I make based on fa cts .

Mr. CLA RK . I,w ill tell y ou wha t I know . I kn ow tha t these stand

patters cla imed th e utter fo lly of cutting the tariff down t o get lowerprices , and last summer

,fall

,and winter they gave as an i llustra tion

of it tha t we cut the tariff on lumber 7 5 cents p er thousand , and i t

went up before we go t out of town .

Mr. HINES . Tha t is simply like a great many rumors . We W i ll gi veyou the sta tement of the prices in a thousand p lace s

’

in th e U ni tedStates , showing tha t the cost ofmanufacture a t the mi lls i s le ss thanit has been formany ye ars . Wha t the reta iler ge ts we do no t know .

We are representing the manufacturers .

Mr. BO U TELL . I was go ing t o suggest tha t you and h e are ta lking~about different things .

0

Mr. GA INES . Y ou probably heard them ta lkin about sho es .

Mr. CLA RK . No ; I am ta lking about lumber. hey a lso came downhere and sa id if we put hides on th e free list

,they would lower th e

price of shoes 50 cents a pa ir, and they did no t do anything of th e

sort .

Mr. HINEs . Now,Mr. Cha irman ,

this particular thing I am famili arwith . If wha t you are trying t o a ccomplish is t o get Canad i an timberinto the U ni ted Sta tes in order to ho ld down rices of timber by t imb er owners in th e U nited Sta tes , then I am wil ing to go a long W i th youand say , bring in th e timber from Canada free ; but do no t debar the

8 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

manufa cture in the U nited Sta tes . Leave open the do or where theraw ma teria l can come in .

Mr. CLA RK . Wha t do you suppo se made tha t d i fference in the pri ceo f timber ?Mr. HINEs . I do no t know .

Mr. CLA RK . Wha t do ou think ?0

Mr.HINES . I do no t ow . We are here looki ng for informati on.

A ll that we demand is the same tre a tment on the part of our forestsas you have given o thers . We have pulp wood on our lands and

timber on our lands ; and why take a part of a tree tha t grows 6 or 7

inches and allow it to come in free , if you are go ing t o take a treeright alongside of it 20 inches in diame ter and say that i t must b emanufactured in Canada , by labor fed with Canadi an farm products ?Mr. CLA RK . Now it must b e assumed by you and me and every

man who h as any sense that everybody w ants as much labor done inthe U nited States as possible . We will agree about that . Then, ifthis shuts out labor

,h ow do you account for it ?

Mr. HINES . I am here seeking information from y ou gentlemen.

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou are no t go ing t o get much here .

Mr. HINES . I do no t know what caused that to b e written in thebill

, b ut it is there . I am asking for informa tion .

Mr. D A LZELL . What do you refer t o in the bill ?Mr. HINEs . I am referring t o th e clause in whi ch wood pulp is

a llowed t o b e imported into the U nited Sta tes free .

Mr. GA INES . Pulp timber,and no t logs , as logs publish no news

a ers .pr. CLA RK . Tha t the logs you make pulp out of come in free

,but

the timber you make lumber out of does not come in free ?Mr. Hi NE s . It does no t come in a t all. It no t only doe s no t come

in free,but it does no t come in a t all.

Th e CHA IRM A N . Of - course they are on the free list,bo th of them ?

Mr. HINES . No ,Mr. Chairman .

Mr.

1

I‘

l

’

O RD NEY . There is an embargo on logs . They can no t comein a t a

The CHA IRM A N . So far as our tariff is concerned,they come in free .

Now ,

1

w£i a t you w ant is a re talia tory clause similar t o tha t in regard

t o pu pMr. HINEs . A bso lutely .

Th e CHA IRM A N . How long h as this embargo been on logs ?Mr. HINES . It h as been in effe c t since the dut y on lumber was

put in effect , unde r the old D ingley law .

Mr. FO R D N EY . It h as been in effe ct s ince. (he D inglev law .

The CHA IRMA N . Since the D ingley law was put into effe ct ?Mr. HINES . Y es ; the ) r at tha t t ime put. an embargo on it all.Mr. IVI< CA LI Has it no t be en longe r ag e than when the Dingley

law went int o e ffect that the t ariff was put on lumber ?Mr. I‘IINES . No

,sir.

The CHA IRM A N . Th is is no t a new condit ion th at. h as arisen sinceth e, p a s s ag e o f th e last t ariff law , but it h a s b e en in exis t ence Sincethe D ing le y A ct w a s pa s s-ed ?Mr. i lINES . Y e s

,s ir; b ut. t he co n dit io n

,o w ing t o the 3 7 -1 per

cent re duc tion , h as mo re a cu t e fo r us . “T

e a re sufferingfrom a double hardsh ip now .

Mr. FO RD NEY . The re neve r was an export dut y on Canadian logs ?

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/join

90 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. CLA RK . D o y ou mean to say tha t th e papers a ll over the

U nited Sta tes did no t say tha t lumberh ad gone up a do llara thousandimmediately a fter the signing of th e P ayne b i ll ?Mr. Hi NEs . Wh a t the newspapers have sa id in th e last SlX months

would fill a bucke t full of fa lsehoods . Tha t doe s no t prove anything .

Mr. CLA RK . Wha t made these Republicans.go around

,then , claim

ing tha t we were a lo t of foo ls when we claimed tha t if we cut the

tariff it would put th e price down ,and th e pri ce of lumber they c i ted

as a case tha t gave th e lie t o our contenti on, because w e cu t the tariff7 5 cents a thousand , and th e price immedi a te ly went up a do llar a

thousand , and there was no t any answer to it ?0

Mr. FORD NEY . Y ou are ta lking about th e pri ce li sts of th e re tai lers ,and Mr. Hines is spe aking from the manufacturer’

s standpoint .Mr. Hi NEs . I am speaking in th e broad terms

Th e CHA IRMA N . Mr. Hines , I h ad a talk soon after tha t b i ll passedwith one of th e largest lumber dea lers in th e U nited Sta tes

—a who lesa ler, and no t a re tailer—and h e assured me tha t the pri ce was hi gher,and I saw h im aga in this winter, and h e made the same assurancethat th e price was higher—and h e assured me tha t th e pri ce of la thsand shingles , on which we ra ised th e duty

,h ad been lowered . He is

a reputable gentleman,and he knew What he was ta lking about

, andh e h ad no reason t o lie about it

,and I be lieved h im,

and I be lievey e t tha t his sta tement was true .

Mr. CLA RK . Is there any connection be tween what y ou say aboutth e manufacturer of lumber and about th e who lesa le prices—but Ibelieve y ou do no t know about th e reta iler. Now

,is there any con

nect ion between th e Who lesa ler and th e reta iler,except th e fa ct that

you sell th e reta iler the lumber ?Mr. Hi NEs . A bsolute ly none Wha tever.

Mr. CLA RK . D o y ou no t fi x particular prices ?Mr. HINES A bso lutely none . There are manufacturers in

th e U n ited States . Take,for instance

,Springfie ld ,

Ill . ; t hey b uyspruce from fi ve distinct groups of territory ,

from Florida t o YVashingt on

, from Georgian Bay in Canada t o West Virg inia .

Mr. GA INES . I w as about t o say a moment ago that I c an bringh ere frommy own district—no t from th e who le State o fWe st Virginiabut from my own district—250men wh o w ill swear tha t t h e rice oflumber h as been very much lowered in th e last y ear and a h a f ; very

muc 1 .

Mr. CLA RK . A re you ta lking about retailers o r who lesalers ?

fffh '

. GA INES . I am ta lking about th e manufacturer’s prices a t hisin

Th e CHA IRM A N . I W ill ask Mr . Hines if he knows wh a t the price ofCanadi an lumber h as been since the tariff bill went into e ffe ct andwhe ther any reduction was made. in the price ?Mr. Hi NEs . In some cases Where the y were lo ca t ed a t favorable

points for transporta tion , as in th e Georgian B a y , where they ownth e marke t , or on our Gre a t L akes

, on account of the che aper tr

port a t i on

,in such cases th ere. w as no ma teria l reduction made .

hey S imply o cke ted the difference . For instance , t ake. Cleveland ,Erie , orBuffa o

,the ra te from Canada is on lumber. Th e near

est manufacturmg marke t t o those gre a t consuming marke ts is theSouth ,

and the ra te on lumber from those places is $8 a thousand .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 9 1

The CHA IRM A N . Now you have s oken in answer to my uestionabout the

‘great lumbermarkets of t e country where the bul of the

consum ti on is .

Mr. INES . No , no t the greates t consumption ; the greatest manufacturing proposi tion . On th e P a cific coast prices ha ve gone down ;in the interior prices have gone down . In the South prices havegone down .

The CHA IRMA N . I was speaking about the importing price . Y ou

sa that has gone down west of th e R o ckies ?r. Hi NEs . Y es .

The CHA IRMA N . A t what particular o ints ?Mr. HINES . In th e States o f Was ington, Oregon ,

Idaho , andMontana , abso lutely .

T

fl

fielCHA IRMA N . Lumber is se lling a t less than it did before th e

t an

Mr. HINEs . A bso lutely,less .

Th e CHA IRMA N . Those are th e po ints you refer to when you saythat the price of imported lumber h as gone down ?Mr. HiNEs . I w ill say further tha t at the Great Lake po ints b ox

lumber has gone down a do llar t o a do llar and a ha lf a thousand,

and that is th e grea test part of th e lumber we import from Canada .

The best lumber o'o es to Europe , and the refuse comes to us .

Mr. FORD NEY .

QBOX lumber is 50 p er cent of the product of the log

Mr. HINES . Fully 50 er cent of the product of the log . A s to the

South,I will say this , tha t 7 5 p er cent of the mills in the South are

suffering to - day and can hardly p ay interest on the ir bonds . The irinterest to - day is in default .

Mr. CLA RK. D o es no t tha t grow out of the fact tha t a lot of lumberspeculators , or rather speculators in lumber or timber, have beenwildcatting the timber market un til it go t out of all reason ?Mr. HINES . No . Le t me give you reasons Why . For instance , take

horses . “’

e now have to p ay $600 apie ce for horses and we used tobuy them for $ 12 5 apiece .

Mr. CLARK. Y es ; I know tha t .

Mr. HINES . I am paying $ 18 a t on for hay , and I used to ay $9

and $10a ton . I am paying $50 and $60a month formen . e usedto ay them from $ 12 to $20 a month . Wh en you ta lk of the pri ceoffiimb er, you must take into a ccount that 7 5 t o

.

80 p er cent of tha tprice is labor and farm products and transport a tion . Every one of

those thing s has advanced , even including ra ilroad freights ; theyhave advanced .

Mr. CLA RK . Now, you do no t mean to say tha t the pri ce of hay

ordinarily is anything like $ 18 a t on ?

Mr. HINEs . Th e word “ordinarily ” means wha t you are paying

now as compared wi th what you were paying two or three years ago .

Mr. CLA RK . No ; there may b e a lo ca l hay famine .

Mr. Hi NEs . No ,but loca l farm products are hi gher to - day . Look

at runes, for instance . We used to buy themfor 4 9} cents a pound ,an we are now aying nearly double tha t . I can give you a hundredarticles forwhio we are payin more .

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou take the bul c of the farmproducts in thi s country ;do you say they are higher than they were a year ago ?

Mr.HINES . Everything compared t o two ye ars ago i s higher.

Some things are,of course , only 5 or 10 p er cent higher. But take

9 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

runes ; I suppo se they are a little lower than they were a ye ar ago ,

But they are 100 p er cent h igher than they were two years ago .

Mr. CLA RK .I am no t ta lking abou t those th ings , but corn and

w hea t .

Mr. Hi NEs . Everything i s higher.

0

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou do no t cla im tha t corn i s hi gher than i t was two

y e ars a 0 ?

Mr. I INES We ll , take whea t .

Mr. CLA RK . Wh y ,two years ago I so ld my corn crop ,

over thet e lephone , a t 55 cents a bushe l on the stalk in the fie ld , th e daybe fore I left home , and this year you can buy all the corn you wantfor 4 5 cents a bushe l .Mr.HINES . Y es ; but compare that with 10 years ago ,

when we

h ad l 5 - cent corn .

Mr. CLA RK . Oh ,10 or 15 years ago everything went t o p i eces .

Mr. FORD NEY . Here is a quo tation on hay last week in Buffa lo , $ 18 .

Mr. CLA RK . That is because they did no t ra ise any h ay up therelast year.

Mr. FORD NEY . Then here are o ther quo ta tions , for instance , a t

B oston , $22 . That was th e price on hay last week .

Mr. CLA RK . What was it in St . Louis and Kansas CityMr . FO RD NEY . Y ou come from that district . Y ou te ll me .

Mr. CLA RK . I think it would b e about $9 or $ 10 a t on .

Mr. FORD NEY . Wha t is the fre ight from there to Buffa lo ? Tellme that and then you w ill g et th e price in Missouri .The CHA IRMA N . I have a letter on my desk from a h ay dealer in

the Sta te of New York,which te lls all about the prices .

Mr. FORD NEY . I sayTh e CHA IRMA N . Now

,wa it a minute . It may b e that what I say

w ill confirm you . D o no t g et so excited . Y ou do no t know it all.Mr. FORD NEY . Y ou say you know it all. I do no t know it all .

The CHA IRMA N . This man says tha t h a y of the very best qua li tyis worth $22 a thousand , and he says there is a gre a t dea l of second

l

quali ty h ay .

Mr. FORD NEY . Y es .

Th e CHA IRMA N . A nd tha t is very low ; tha t is worth $ 16 and less .

N ow tha t confirms partially wha t the gentleman from Missouri says .

Mr. FORD NEY . Y e s,partia lly .

'

Ihe CHA IRMA N . Th e best qua lity of timo thy he say s se lls for $22 ,a nd whea t is 8 5 cents a bushe l

,and so he goes on through the list .

He is a very‘int elligent man and knows wha t h e is ta lking about .

He is compla ining about the low prices of farm produc ts as comparedw ith th e p ric es in th e last two years .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Le t me say to the gentleman,if you please , that

lumbermen do no t and can no t use refuse h ay . It is no t a marketable article . It is no t quo ted on th e market .

The CHA IRMA N . I have no t heard anything about refuse h ay .

e. FO RD NEY . Y ou are ta lking about se cond - qua lity hay ; that is

re use .

Th e CHA IRMA N . Oh,no .

Mr. FO RD NEY . It is damaged by storm before it is cut . I am a

farmer and I know what I am t alking about,now .

Mr. HILL . Now,le t us go back t o the recipro city trea ty .

I unders tand , Mr. Hines , that you are in favor of this legisla tion ,

provided

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 9 3

the word “ logs is inserted in th e roviso,so that all restrictions on

the free exportation of logs are t a en away,j ust the same as they

are taken away on pulp wood ?Mr. HINES . I would answer that this way ,

Mr. Hill . If in yourjudgment you fee l that after th e lumb er industry h as suffered a cut

of 37A er cent, you want to make it abso lute ly free

Mr. ILL . I do no t want you to put it way to me,be cause I would

not quite agree w ith you on it that way . I think there has been an

actual reduction in the who lesa le prices of lumber—a good deal more

than the difference in th e tariff, and no t affected by th e tariff.

Mr. HINES . Then I w ill answer y ou persona lly . What our asso

cia tion would say I do no t know,as we have no t h ad a meeting . I

will answer you individua lly . Be ing an American and a R e ub lican,

and advoca ting here th e pro tection of American industries,

can no t

see any reason Why ,w ith th e logs on th e o ther side of this imag inary

line , w ith merely a stream separa ting us from them,th e logs should

no t b e taken and brought over on this side of th e line and manufac

tured by American labor fed by American farm products,and every

thing tha t go es into th e manufacture of lumber like steel and saws

and cha ins come from this s ide,so tha t w e may get th e benefit of

that , when we can manufacture th e lumber on this s ide as well as it .

can b e done on th e Canadian s ide .

Mr. HILL . Wha t is th e language you would suggest to put in this.

paragra h ?Mr. INES . A s to j ust th e lega l verbiage , I do no t know tha t I am

capable of suggesting that , b ut I would say substantia lly th e same

clause as a plies t o pulp woo d ; namely,when Canada and th e

Provinces a roga te the ir dutyMr. HIL L . It would only need th e insertion of th e items . Tha t

is all provided for, so far as pulp wood is concerned .

Mr. HINES . I will have this inserted in red ink after this he aringis over

,and put it in proper shape , if you would like to have me .

Mr.HILL . With tha t done you would no t appe ar here in Opposi

tion to the reci rocity trea ty ?Mr.HINES .

could no t say tha t , being president of this asso cia tion .

Mr. HILL . I mean speaking for yourself, plersonally .

Mr.HINES .

But I would say this , tha t a t would go a long waytoward sa tisfying our members . With this clause changed we

should no t b e in nearly as strong a position to comba t your argumentabout free lumber as we are to—day .

Mr.HILL

. Le t me ask you one uest ion : Is there any restri cti onnow on your logs from land whio you own

,which is no t Crown

land ? If you own 100 a cres of land in Canada ,abso lutely own the

land in fee, you can cut your logs and do what you please W i th them ?

Mr.HINES . Mr.

Hill,there is no such land on which timber i s

loca ted in Canada .

Mr. HILL . If there was, you could do it ?

Mr.HINES .

I do no t know of any such land . It i s all leased land .

Mr.HILL

. Now, is no t the restriction so le ly on timber from so

called Crown land,and is no t tha t applied a like t o Canadi ans and

Ameri cans and everybody ?Mr.HINES . No ; as I understand i t

,no logs from any lands can b e

imported into thi s country from Canada .

9 4 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. HILL . If you own lands,vou can impo rt the logs from Canada

into this country ?Mr. I—IINEs . But the trouble is

, you are pu tting a case tha t 1S no ttrue . There are no such lands .

Mr. HILL . If there was such land there, you could cu t

‘

off thet imber, and there would b e no duty on tha t timber imported in to th eU nited Sta tes ?

0~Mr. Hi NEs . Th e trouble is you are put ting a supposi t i ti ous case .

There is no such case in Canada .

Mr. HILL . There might b e a case Where a man owns a farm and the

t imber h as grown on it,and he can cut it and bring it in .

Now, y ou would favor this re cipro city trea ty

,or you would not

o bj ect t o it,if the restrictions which th e Canadian

.

Governmentputs on Americans and Canadians and everybody alike tha t logscut from public lands in Canada sha ll b e manufa ctured in Canadawas removed ? If tha t was removed and th e timber and logs weretrea ted pre cise ly the same as the pulp wood which comes from thes ame landsMr. HINES . A bso lute ly

, yes .

Mr. HILL (continuing ) . I will admit tha t—then,there would b e

no objection t o this ? Now,I agree with you ,

and I think theyon ht to come in th e same as th e pul wood

,or the pul

pwood ought

t o i t} restricted th e same as the t im er is restricted ; ut I wantedt o e t th e pre cise osit ion y ou o ccupy on this proposition .

h e CHA IRMA N . on have it .

Mr. HILL . Now I understand it . I am much obliged to you .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Mr. Hill’s p ro osition to you is tha t wi th tha tprovi sion put in you would no t 0 ject to this ?Mr. HINES . No ; I thought h e sa idMr. FO RD NEY . No ; he sa id you would agree to it. if tha t was put

in the bill .Mr. HINES . No ; I would no t put it tha t way . I sa id I would no t

have ne arly th e same obj ection t o the trea ty ; I would no t fee l tha tour particular industry was picked ou t t o b e sandbagged .

Mr. FORD NEY . In o ther words , if tha t wa s in there vou could takethe ill wi th a little less discomfort ?l\ r. Hi NEs . Y es .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Mr. Cha irman, I have an amendment t o the bill .

whi ch h as j ust been suggested by the cha irman or Mr. Hill,tha t I

would like to h ave the clerk read .

The“

CHA IRMA N . We are no t considering the bill just now . Thatwi ll b e printed in the re cord . O f course th e committee all unders tand that this bill , the ma teria l p arts of it

,must b e adopted or

re je cted and tha t any amendment is e uivalent t o a re ject ion of it .

Mr. FO RDNEY . I do no t understand t a t . Where do vou ge tthat

understand ing ?The CHA IRM A N . I understand so .

Mr. FORD NEY . Where did you ge toyour informa tion

'

8

Th e CHA IRMA N . I go t a little previ ous informa tion tha t I acquireda reat many years ago .

r. FORD NEY . I do no t understand it that way .

Mr. PO U . If you are go ing to begin th e grea t work of tariff reform,

itt sel

e

l

ams to me you have go t to swa low the thing who le or no t take ita a

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A . 9 5

Th e CHA IRM A N . Th e gentleman knows tha t this is a trea ty withanother nat i on .

Mr. PO U . Y es .

The CHA IRMA N . If there is any amendment of it, th e thing will

practically b e a t an end .

Mr. PO U . That do es no t change my osit ion .

The CHA IRM A N . Now,Mr. Fordney

,have this letter I referred to

a f

gw moments ago

—a little bit on the prices of h ay . This letterrea s :

I am reading with much inte rest th e disp atch es regarding President Taft ’s recommendations to Congress in regard to th e reci procity arrangement wi th Canada .

I can not h e lp feeling very d e ep ly regarding th e serious effect th is wi ll have up onthe producers of farm p roducts through out all our North ern States should h is recommendat ions to admi t free all th e farm p roducts from Canada b e ado ted .

A t th e present time th e markets for our hay are in ab out as b a'

condition as theyhave ever b een known t o b e . Th ough Canada is p ayi ng $4 p er gross ton duty , yetshe is simp ly flooding all New England with h er h ay ,

and also a large p ercentage ofthe New Y ork State markets , and wh ile th ey h ave no practically No . 1 b ay in Canadathi s year, and w e are ab le t o ge t around $21 p er t on forwh at No . 1 hay we have in theStates, yet for No . 2 hay we have to out under from $3 to $5 p er t on and mixed h ayfrom $6 to $7 and $8 p er t on . Clover h ay was sold in New Y ork last we ek as low as

p er ton ,de livered th ere . Th ere were around 100carloads ofmixed h ay standing

there wh ich could h ardly b e disposed of at any reasonab le prices .

Our States are aflood wi th p otatoes , we are b uyi ng from th e farmers to - day at 30 to

35 cents p erb ush el, and th ere are prob ab ly more p otatoes in th e States than th e marke twill b e ab le t o take care of in th e spring , and Iwill not b e surprised to see th e price ofp ota toes to th e farmers th is spring down to 20 cents p er b ush el.Oats are b e ing b ough t a t around 35 cents to th e farmer and wh eat h as to b e b ough t

a t around 8 5 to 90 cents p er b ush el to th e farmer to p ermi t of sh ip p ing i t .

Imention th ese th ings to sh ow you th a t th is coun try is ab le to - day to produce all

th at its markets can take care of and h ave a large surp lus to sh ip to o th er countries ,and we b elieve tha t b y carefulh andling ourp roduction can b e trip led and quadrup led .

D uring th e last two or thre e years our farm lands h ave advanced quite ma terially and

our farmers have commenced to feel a p leasure in th e ir work, b ut th is certa inly can

have no oth er effect th an to dep ress th em.

Ib elieve th e time is a t hand wh en th e p eop le wh o voted aga inst y ou and your ideas

a t our last election are realizing th a t th e med icine th ey are now ab out to h ave administered to them is of a very b i tter na ture , and that th ey wi ll regre t the action a t tha te lection ,

and I b e lieve th a t th is protest I am uttering vo ices th e sentiment of th egreat ma jori ty of th e p eop le at th e present time , and tha t you wi ll b e commended fortaking very strong and decisive step s to try to overcome th e carryi ng out of th e recommanda tions of our President in th is ma tter.

Mr. Hi NEs . Mr. Cha irman,I want to say two more words on this

question .

The CHA IRM A N . I just wanted y ou t o hear tha t who le letter and t o

see if you did no t agree w ith it .

Mr. FORD NEY . Will the cha irman permit me t o read a letter whichI have just rece ivedTh e CHA IRM A N . Why , yes .

Mr. FORD NEY . This le tter is as fo llows :

FREELA ND ,MICH ,

February 1 , 19 1 1 .

Congressman J . W . FO R D N EY .

D EA R SIR : Please do wh at y ou can to defeat th e Canadian reciprocity treaty in so

far as it would ch eap en American agricultural prod ucts . I h ave talked W i th a good

manv farmers,and th ey all would like to see th e b ill defeated . Ifwe want free trade

we wi ll vote for Bryan .

Resp ectfully , C . E . L U D ORCI.

Mr. CLA RK . D o es that man live in your district ?Mr FORD NEY . Y es .

9 6 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. CLA RK . Wh at was the use of his was ting his stamp t o wri te to

you ,then ?

0

Mr. FO RD NEY . Why ,he knew that he was wri tmg to a man that

would heed what he said .

Mr. CLA RK . Y es ; but did h e no t know that just as well before hewro teMr. LONGWORTH. I want to ask Mr. Hines a uest ion on a different

branch of this subject . I read a sentence mm the President’

s

Message , as fo llows :Free lumb er we ough t to h ave . By giving our p eople access to Canadian forests

we sh all reduce the consump tion of our own .

D o you agree with that ?Mr. HINEs .

I would like th e who le sentence read . It goes on to

state o ther particulars .

Mr. LONGWO RTH . I will re ad this again :

Free lumb erwe ough t to have . By giving our p eop le access to Canadian forests weshall reduce th e consum tion of our own ,

wh ich ,in the hands of compara tively few

owners , now have a va ue tha t requires th e enlargement of our ava ilab le timb erresources .

Now ,leaving out that question as to whethe r or no t it is in the

hands of a few owners , I simply ask you this question ,do vou agree

wi th this conclusion of the President’s :

By g iving our p eople access to Canadian forests we shall reduce th e consump tion of

our own?

Mr. HINEs . Th at question can b e answered both ways . I callyour attention to a statement made by Mr. P incho t a ye ar and a halfago in which he abso lute ly took the contrary V iew to that . A t thattime h e was in charge of our conservation , and he is supposed toknow as much about our forests as anybody e lse

,ormore than any

body e lse,and about what w as th e proper thing t o conserve our

forests . and he took abso lutely the oppo site view . It is some thingthat takes an arg ument to demonstrate it . I difi

'

erwith the Presidentpartly on that proposition .

Mr. LONGWORTH. D o you a ree wi th Mr. P incho t ?Mr. HINES . Not entirely . take a middle ground .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Wha t is tha t round ?Mr. HINES . It is uite a story . would b e very glad t o give vou

my views , but I wou d prefer to do it in writing , because I do not thinkI Wfi‘fld have t ime this morning t o give them. I will do that if you

W IS

Mr. LONGWORrH . I would very much like t o have that,because

that was a quest i on that was very much debatedMr. HINES . It is quite a debatable subj ect .

Mr. LONGWORTH (continuing ) . During the tariff hearings .

Mr. HINES . Y es .

Mr. LONGWORTH . A nd I think y ou are the first person I have heardadvance the pro position that th e higher the price of lumber was

,the

less tendency there would b e t o cut down trees .

Mr. HiNEs . A bso lutely ; abso lute ly .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Now of course t he philosophica l result of thatis

.

that the higheryou place your duty , th e more on are t endinO' in th edirect ion of forest conserva t i on ,

so that if you ad a duty so high as

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/join

9 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

obje ct is there in leaving a proviso there tha t makes it impossible tomanufacture that lumber in the U nited States ? Now ,

no matterwhe ther a man is a R epublican or a Demo cra t , if he is an Ameri cancitizen tha t argument w ill appea l to him.

Mr. D W IGHT . Is no t the price of lumber t o th e consumer fixed bya reta il de a lers’ asso ciation ?Mr. Hi NEs . There are practica lly 50 re ta il de alers ’

associa tions inthe U nited States .

Mr. D W IGHT . D o they not work in h arni oMr. Hi NEs . No

,sir; they are lo ca l proposit ions . There is one in

Ba ltimore and one in Philade lphia and one in Boston ; e ach one ofthem local . They are lo cal propositions .

Mr. D W IGHT . But is the re no t a short c ircuit between them all ?Mr. Hi NEs . They do have genera l meetings , I think , or something

t o that effe ct .

Mr. HILL . Y ou have more retail yards yourse lves than any one

asso ciation in the U nited States ?Mr. HINES . No

,sir; We have no re ta il vards .

Mr. HILL . D o you no t se ll at retail ?Mr. Hi NEs . None Whatever. We are strictly in the manufactur

in business .

r i r. HILL . Y ou used t o have,did vou no t ?

Mr. Hi NEs . No,sir.

Mr. HILL . I thought you h ad 4 00 or 500 retail yards .

Mr. Hi NEs . No,sir ; we are strictly manufacturing .

Mr. HILL . Are no t you yourse lf interestedMr. Hi NEs . No

,sir; I am no t interested individua lly in any com

Mr

‘

. HILL . When did you G e t out of the re tail business ?Mr. Hi a . I never have

t

heen in the reta il yard business ; strictlymanufa cturing . We have a large distributing yard in Chicago thatwe ship to

,and we ship through that yard t o different country

de alers .

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou own th e stumpage ?Mr. Hi N Es . Y es .

Mr. CLA RK . D o

tyouthink

putting lumber on th e free list would

reduce th e price 0 stumpage .

Mr. Hi NEs . On thi s side ?Mr. CLA RK . Y es .

Mr. Hi NEs . No,sir.

Mr. HILL . It is bound to go u anyway,is it no t ?

Mr. Hi NEs . Stumpage na turaliy go es up . “'

hy ? Y ou are payininterest and taxes every year, and the county assessor comes aroundand says tha t your stumpage is worth more every year

,and h e assesses

accordingly .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Is no t a stump worth more when the tree h as grown

Mr.

.

HINEs . Certa inly ; timber grows .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Then why should stumpage go up mere ly becauseyou ho ld th e land if the timber is grow ing and you ge t the benefit ofth e grow th ?Mr. I—IINEs . It do es no t grow in proportion to p ay interes t and

taxes . It do es no t beg in to .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Then timber land is a b ad investment ?

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A . 9 9

Mr. HINES . No ; i t has no t proved a b ad investment in this country .

0 it h as no t .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Is no t the fact tha t th e stumpage is he ld by so few

parties practica lly th e reason that lumber can b e so high in th e U nitedtates as i t i s ?

Mr. HINES . Tha t is an entirely mis taken view . Th e President’smessage jus t referred to is no t based on fact . We do no t know wherehe go t the informa tion from. Herbert Knox Smith h as be en invest

'

atin it for three ye ars . “'

e have no t go t a verdict yet .

r. A ND ELL . I want t o know about your opinion as to th e effectof allowing lumber to b e manufa ctured from Canadi an timber on thisside . If it is so arranged that you ge t a bountiful supply of logs onthis side of th e line , h ow far would tha t affect the marke t and b e a

benefit to th e eople in th e Mississippi Valley, for instance ?Mr. HINEs . t ought to affect directly on a line drawn

,say , from

Pittsburg t o Kansas City, from there north .

Mr. RA ND ELL . It would b e a direct benefit north of tha t line .

Indirectly, how would it affect be low that line ?Mr. HIN ES . It would afi ect a little bit

,indirectly

,na tura lly .

Mr. RA ND ELL . In wha t way ?Mr. Hi NEs . When you bring a larger supply of anything it affects,

of course , the nearermarkets first,and sympa the tica lly affects o ther

markets .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Would it crowd th e southern trade back further ?Mr. Hi NEs . Y es : na turally it would .

Mr. RA N D ELL . Would that have a tendency to reduce prices ?Mr. HINES . U nless you could curtail th e output .

Mr. R A ND ELL . Then if we h ad free lumber entirely from Canada ,it would materially a ffect th e price of lumber in the U nited States ?Mr. HINES . It would no t a ffect it materially , because th e duty at

the present time is only p er thousand , which is only 5 to 6 percent . Taking tha t all off would no t make any materia l reduction .

One do llar and twent - five cents a thousand is a small sum. It wouldnot amount

,in buil ing a house , to more than $ 10 or $15 , on the

ordinary house . But what I wi sh to impress on your mind is thisparticular proposition . Here is a place where there are several hundred billion feet of timber, north ofMinnesota and Wisconsin . Now,

you go further west and you have th e great virgin forests of Canada ,in British Co lumbia .

Mr. RA ND ELL. Y ou say there is a tremendous lot of pine . How

far is the southern pine so ld up in there ?Mr. HINES . The southern timber is sold clear up into Mi chigan,

to - day . It is the timber that is used for ordinary building purposesin Minneso ta , and some in W iscons in .

Mr. RA ND ELL . How far is th e southern pine so ld in th e North ; howfar do es it go where it comes in competition with northern pine ?Mr. HINEs .

It comes right in competition W i th i t .

.

Over half ofthe pine timber so ld in Chicago to—day ,

60 per cent of i t , comes fromthe South .

Mr. RA ND ELL. Would the Louisiana mills and the Texas mi lls b eaffected if w e h ad free importation of lumber from Canada ?Mr. Hi NEs . Y es .

Mr. RA ND ELL . To what extent ?

100 REC IPROC IT’Y W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. HINES . TO at least the extent of present duti es . A t the

present time they are in a very demora lized condi ti on ,and one of the

reasons is th e cost of trans ort at ion . Th e co st of transportati onfrom Canada is and rom Texas it is between $8 and $10.

That is th e cost of transporta tion a lone,no t any o ther factor.

Mr. RA ND ELL . That is fix ed by the railroads ?Mr. HINES . No ; the transporta tion from Canada i s by water.

Mr. MCCA LL . D o y ou understand tha t any export duties are leviedby the Government of the Dominion of Canada on logs ?Mr. HINES . They are prohibited .

Mr. MCCA LL . But are any export duties levied by the DominionGovernment itse lf ?Mr. HINES . No , sir; they are simply prohi bited , as I unders tand it.Mr. MCCA LL . I know ; but wha tever export duties are imposed are

im osed by th e Provinces ?HINES . Y es .

Mr. MCCA LL . And is there no t a difference of practice among thoseProvinces ?Mr. Hi NEs . There is .

Mr. MCCA LL . Is there any uniform po licy about it ?Mr. HINES . A s I understand it , there is no t . In the Province of

Ontario they are abso lute ly prohibited . In the Province of BritishCo lumbia it is left to th e discre tion of the o fficials

,considering the

marke t . If the Canadian marke t is de ad,and they can no t se ll their

10 s,they are allowed to ex ort them into th e U nited Sta tes

,a t times.

r. FO RD NEY . May I as a uest ion ?Mr. Hi NEs . Le t me answer t at o int .

The CHA IRM A N . Wa it a minute,

r. Fordney ; he do es no t desire tob e inte rrupted .

Mr. FO R D NEY . A ll right .

Mr. MCCA LL . Very we ll ; go ahead .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Y ou have asked whe ther th e export duty is imposedby the Provinces . If it is imposed

,it is im osed by the D ominion

Government , but the restriction is imposed y the Province .

Mr. MCCA LL . I have here a pamphlet entitled “Export Tariffs of

Fore ign Countries , tariff series,No . 20, printed by th i s

'

Governmentin 19 09 . On page 16 I find this quo ta tion from the law of June 29 ,1 8 9 7 , which was about co incident w ith the passage of the Dingleylaw

, but still prior to the passage of the Dingley law . Tha t did no t

pass until some time in July , so tha t the Canadian law was passedefore it . This reads :

(1 ) If any country now orh ereafter imp oses a duty up on th e articles enumera ted ini tem 61 1 in sch edule B to th e customs tariff

, 18 9 7 , or upon any of such articles whenimp orted into such country from Canada . th e go vernor i n counc il may , b y proclamat i on pub li sh ed in th e Canada Gaze tte , declare t he following exp ort duties , or any ofth em,

ch argeab le up on logs and p ulp wood exp orted fromCanada to such country ,that

i s to say : On p ine ,D ouglas fi r

Then in a note a t the head , preceding that , there is th is statement :Norm—NO export dut ies are levied b y th e D ominionGovernment .That is directly upon th e po int of that suggestion .

Mr. FO RD NEY . I agree with you.

(aMr. MCCA LL . I understood you to say there was one .

Mr. FO RD NEY . No ; I sa id there never had been .

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102 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Mr. RA ND ELL . A re log cha ins , and saws , and materi als tha t are

made of iron and stee l higher—do they cost you more—m Canadathan in the U nited State s ? A re th ey no t cheaper in Canada ?Mr. HINES . No ,

sir.

Mr. RA ND ELL . Then they are the same ?

Mr. HINES . But do you no t see

Mr. RA ND ELL . D o you say they cost the same ?

Mr.HINES . Generally spe aking , they are practica lly the same ; but

my conten tion is this : Here are the logs coming down the river.

.

If

you manufacture them on this side , the who le of tha t money remains

in the U nited States . If you manufacture on the o ther Si de , i t all

goes t o Canada . This question is a very import ant one,

‘

and I feelthat our industry is scattered so wide ly throughout th e U ni ted Statesthat we should b e given time for our representatives t o come herefrom the P acific coast , and Thursday is th e e arli est day that wecould ossib ly have them here .

Mr.

IHILL . D o I understand tha t th e exporta tion of logs is ab so

lutely and entirely from the Crown lands in Canada ?Mr. HINES . Y es ; abso lute ly .

Mr. HILL . I have here th e Canadian sta tistica l report for 19 10, inwhich there is a sta tement tha t for 19 10 there were feet

,

board measure,of logs exported . Wha t were those

Mr. HINES . Mr. Hill,I did no t answer your question exactly . I

thought y ou were ta lkin about the Province of Ontario . In the

Provmce of Ontario the o s can no t b e exported . There is wherethe gre at body of pine t im er is which is left . Bu t on the P acificcoast and in British Co lumbia it is left t o th e discre tion of the offi cialsthere . If the marke t ge ts dull , they are a llowed t o export . If themarke t justifi es the remova l of the restriction

,it is removed .

Mr. HILL . Then,it is a come - and—go re striction ?

Mr. HINES . Y es . For instance,if our marke t on this side is

reasonably high they take the restriction off and dump the stuffover here .

Mr. HILL . But the re atest body of pine timber is in Ontario ?

WMr. HINES . Y es ; w ere it will go t o our friends of the Middleest .

Mr. HILL . Then ; this sta tement is no t a sta tement of the difference be tween priva te lands and Crown lands ?Mr. HINES . No

,sir.

WMr.

2

HILL . It is the difference be tween loca li ties and East andest .

Mr. HINES . Y es .

Th e CHA IRMA N . I want to ask you one question . Have we heldour own since th e passa

ge of the tariff law ? In the export trade and

with foreign countries , ave we held our own with th e British possessions ?Mr. HINES . I could no t answer tha t qu estion intelligently . I

have no t kept track of the loca l conditions . How soon could weknow about this hearing , Mr. Cha irman ? I would like to send some

Th e CHA IRMA N . A t 2 o’clo ck .

Mr. HINES . I am sorry to have taken so much of your time .

Mr. MCCA LL . It h as been very interesting .

Mr. HINES . Thank you ,Mr. McCall.

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 103

Mr. STA FFORD . Mr. Chairman,the delega tion of ma ltsters from

the Northwest have just arrived,the ir train having been de layed .

Otherwise they would have been here sooner. I would like to knowwhether they can a pear this afternoon ?The CHA IRMA N . es ; soon after 2 o

’clock,and I would suggest to

you that one gentleman should resent the facts to us . It is no t themultitude of people who come siore us ; we want the facts .

fMr. STA FFORD . I be lieve one gentleman is prepared to present the

acts .

The CHA IRM A N . I hope th e members of the committee will b e here

promptly a t 2

.

0’clo ck so tha t we can have a short executive session

efore we begin the he arin and I hope a lso that all of the gentlemen who are to appear wil b e here a t 2 o

’clo ck .

(A t 12 o’

clo ck noon the committee took a recess until 2 o’clo ck

p . In . )

A FTER RECESS .

The committee reassembled at p . m. pursuant to the taking of‘

recess.

The CHA IRM A N . Th e committee have decided to close th e hearings,

on this bill at 5 o’clock on

.

Thursday next. No one w ill b e heard‘

after that, and th e hearings up to that time w i ll b e confined to new

conditions that have arisen since th e hearings on the genera l tari ffbill two years ago . It is no t the purpose of th e committee to go ,

into a second edition of th e hearings on the genera l tariff.I h ad sa id to my co lleague , Mr. Ma lby

,that h e could b e heard ’

this afternoon, but I am go ing to ask h im to wa it until some gentlemen from a distance have been heard first .Mr. MALBY. In relation to that

,I have no particular objection to

accommodating myse l f to the convenience of th e committee exceptI desire to ca l l attention t o the fact that I am a member of t e committee having in charge th e sundry civil appropriation bill , and we

‘

are having constant hearings and are now engaged in hearings there ,and I would not want to w a it around here

,but i f you w ill name a

time when you w il l hearme , tha t wi ll suit very we ll .The CHA IRM A N . How much time do you desire , Mr. Ma lby ?Mr. MA LBY. I should imag ine about half an hour—perhaps 4 0

minutes.

The CHA IRM A N . Is there objection to hearing h im now ?

Mr. FORD NEY. None on my part.The CH A IRM A N . There seems to b e no objection. Mr. Ma lby h ad

agreed to b e here at ha l f past 10 this morning , but was ca lled awayby a hearing be fore a Sena te committee at that hour and for thatreason could not appear. Wh en the engagement was made I wasvery g lad to get some one to fill in this a fternoon and rel i ed uponMr. Malby for that purpose .

0

Mr. BOU TELL . Be fore Mr. Ma lby proceeds I would like to ask i f

there are any gentlemen of the press associations here ; and i f so

I suggest that this announcement in regard to th e closmg of the

hearing on Thursday next might b e made in th i s a fternoon’s papers.

If the news were sent off now it could get into the western a ft ernoon

papers.

104 RECIPRo CITY W ITH CA N AD A .

STA TEMENT OF HON . GEORGE R . MALBY , A REPRESENTATIVE INCONGRESS FROM THE STA TE OF NEW Y ORK.

Mr. Cha irman and entlemen of th e committee , inasmuch as the

subject to which I sha lfca l l attention was no t one which was debatedor thought ne cessary to debate a t the extended hearings he ld by thiscommittee in the framing o f the tari ff bill , I assume that what I haveto say w ill not transgress the rule which has been la id down by thecha irman of th e committee .

I may say in appearing be fore the committee tha t I appear moreparticularly of course for the constituency which I represent , which iscompose d very larg ely of those engaged in agricultura l pursuits, thoseengaged in handling the products of th e forest, of the mine , and p art icularly are they eng aged in th e manufacture of paper in variousforms. It appears from the reading of the proposed treaty that inSchedule A thereo f substantia l ly all th e products of th e industries ofa t least the district which I have the honor to represent are proposed tob e place d upon th e free list. However, I apprehend that I only in a

very sma ll degree represent the op osit ion to that particular schedule,for there can b e no materia l di erence in the situation existing as

between my constituents and those wh o are engaged in similar occu

p a t ions throughout the length and breadth of our land .

I appear in opposition to H . R . 322 16, introduced by CongressmanMcCall

,of Massachusetts

,which apparently is designed to make

effective the so - ca lled reciprocity treaty entered into by the C anadianGovernment and the U nited States. I w ill no t attempt , for it w ill b eimpossible , to po int out all of the obj ections which might b e urged toits favorable considerat ion , for time sufficient h as no t been g iven forsuch examination of all of th e interests affected t o properly aecomp lish tha t end .

The President,in h is message to Congress recommending its favor

able consideration, seeks to accomplish , among o ther things, a reduetion in the cost of living to th e A merican laborer, as well as to thatother and larger class wh o ne ither labor nor produce .

This is to b e accomplished ma inly as provided in Schedule A ,

which substantia l ly places all farm products produced in th e northern

portion of th e U nited States upon th e free l ist

,and includes cattle,

orses, mules, Swine , Sheep , lambs, and all other l ive anima ls ; poultry,dead or a live ; wheat , rye , oats, barley, buckwheat , dried peas andbeans , edible sweet corn

,ma ize , h ay , straw ,

and cow peas ; potatoes,sweet po tatoes, yams, turnips, onions, cabbages, and all other rege

tables in the ir natura l state ; apples, pears , peaches. aprico ts , driedfruits , viz , app les , pears, peache s , apricots, e tc da iry products.

butter

, cheese , and fresh milk and cream, egg s , honey . grass seed,clover

seed , garden and field seed ; timber hewn, sided or sqi i a i'

ed otherwisethan by saw ing , and round timber used for spars or in buildingwharves ; sawed boards, planks, dea ls, and o ther lumber not furthermanufactured than sawed ; paving posts, ra i lroad t ies , and te lephone ,trol ley, electric light , and te legraph po les o f cedar and o ther woods.

In fa ct, substant ia l ly all of the products of th e forest no t manufactured ; and , second , pulp of wood and manufactured paper va luedat 4 cents p er pound or less, to which subject I w il l herea fter morefully re fer.

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106 RECIPBO CITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. MA LBY. That is brought down as near to the present date as

possible . The fig ures for the amount of the mortgages are no t ab

solutely a matter that is obta inable . I dld ob tam them for severaldifferent States, including P ennsylvania and others, and striki ng an

average , they would amount to about 30 p er cent . They are as cor

rect as it is possible to obta in. Th e number of persons engaged-

in .

agricultura l ursuits, according to the census of 1900, wasThe va lue of

)

agricultura l products, according to th e report of the

Secretary of A griculture for 1909 , was as fo llows :

To ta l va lue of a ll farm products $8 , 700, 000, 000

A nima l p roducts 3 , 000,

Crop s 5 , 700, 000, 000

Th e capita l invested in manu facturing industries in th e U nitedStates, according to the census of 1900, was This hasprobably increased

,and it is estimated at the present t lme t o b e b e

tween andTh e number of farms, as w e have hereto fore noted was 55 31 372 .

by th e census of 1900, and the number of manu facturing institutions

was about So th at we have , accordin to th e best obtainable stat istics for the year 1909 , farm products 0 th e va lue of

and of manu factured goods about The

number of persons engaged in agri culture , accordin to th e census of190

70, w as while those engaged in manu acture w as ab out

'

It w ill thus b e seen that there is nearly twice as much propertyinvested by th e farmer as by the manu facturer, and tw ice as manypeople engaged in farming as in manu facturing , while we a lsoperce ive th at the va lue of all th e farm products is about one - hal f ofthe va lue o f the manufactured art icles, and undoubtedly represents amuch sma l ler percentage of net profits.

L et us pursue the inquiry a little further. We fi nd by the censusof 1900 tha t there was a tota l of persons over 10 y ears ofage engaged in all of the ga in ful occupations in the U nited States atthat t ime . O f this tota l , were engaged in agriculturalpursuits, of persons over 10 years of age , and in manufacturing and mechanica l pursuits . It w il l thus b e seen that tho se en

ag ed in agricultural pursuits exceeded those eng aged both in manuacturing and mechani ca l pursuits by about persons

, and itwil l a lso b e noticed that of th e 000 (plus) engaged in all of theoccup ations more than were farmers.

We fi nd by the census of 1905 (manufactures ) that the sa laries oflaboring men

,16 years of age or over

,was while those of

sa laried ofi icials and clerks was those engaged in th e professions receiving much greater compensation, and while the averageincome of those engaged in agriculture is not g iven, it is undoubtedlymuch less.

From the forego ing sta tements, gathered from the best obta inablestatistics, it is made to appear that it is proposed by the present lawto affect inj uriously more than 35 p er cent of all of th e people of theU nited States who to il for their da ily bread . It appears from thesame authority that they represent an invested capita l which isnearly tw i ce as much as that invested in manufacturing in the who leU nilfl? States, and substantially 30 p er cent of our entire nationa l

wea

BECIPROCITY W ITH CA NAD A . 107

Neither can it b e claimed by anyone that the farmer has at anytime during the history of th e who le country ever rece ived a rea lprofit for his labor except during th e past two or three years. Inconnection with this I desire to ca ll your attention to the report ofthe Se lect Committee of the Senate of the U nited States

, of whichSenator Lodge , of Massachuse tts , was a member, on

“Wages andPrices of. Commod ities ” in the U nited States, which says, at page13 thereo f, as follows :

Wi tnel sse agree tha t farming opera t ions were conducted a t a loss, or a t b estwith only a sligh t marg in of profit for severa l ye ars. and th a t only during th epast two or three years have farmers b een ab le to secure a fa ir return on the irlab or; and investments. The we a lth of t h e farmers '

has increased largelythrough th e increa se in th e va lue o f th e ir land .

The Sta te U niversity of M inneso ta h a s since 1 902 kep t in the grea test de ta i lrecord of a numb er of farms in th a t S ta te . A llow ing th e farmer. h is w ife , andch ildren p ay at current ra tes for a ll la b o r performed , th e net profits during th ethree years. 1 905 to 1 907 . wa s only p er cent , and th is p rofit advanced toab out 6 per cent during th e y ea rs 1 908 t o 1 909 . Th e profit during the pa st twoyears approxima tes th e average interest on fa rm mortgages in th e Sta te .

It is undoubted ly true tha t th e above record,kept by the State of

Minneso ta , represents a much greater percentage of profits t o thefarmers of that Sta te th an the average throughout the U nited States,wh ich doubtless rang es not higher than from 2 1} to 3 p er cent.I des ire a lso to ca ll your atte ntion t o the minority report of the

same committee . On page 6 thereo f , re ferring to the report of conditions in Minnesota , I quote th e fo l low ing :

So it w ill b e se en th a t notw ith stand ing th e large increa se in the price of farmproducts, t h e farmer ha s rea lized a sma ll net return on h is lab or and investment , b y reason of th e increased cost of th e art icles necessary for h im to pur

chase to carry on th e b usiness.

Continuing , the minority report says :

We should like to d iscover one s ingle farmer in all th e U ni ted Sta tes whowas ever asked b y th e buyer t h e cost of p roduct ion of h is wh ea t

,corn, hogs, or

cotton wh en h e was b arga ining for th em. Th e manufacturer may consider‘

th is question wh en h e od ers h is p roduct for sa le , and h e may limi t h is production to meet reced ing prices, b ut no such op portunity comes to th e farmer ;usually he must sell one crop b efore h e commences ra ising ano th er, and h e can

never consider shutting down h is p lant .

It may be important as w el l as instructive to inquire what are themateria l causes which have necessarily led to th e increased price infarmproduction, and , aga in , I take pleasure in ca lling our attentionto the select commit tee’

s report on wages and prices 0 commodities.

A t page 13 thereo f I quo te as fo l lows :

Mr. BROU SSA RD . Wh en wa s th a t rep ort ma de ?Mr. MA LBY . 19 10, I th ink.

Mr. CLA RK . Is th a t th e Lodge re p ort ?Mr. MA LD Y . Tha t is th e Lodg e re port ; y es .

Mr. BROU SSA RD . A nd you quo te from th e minori ty rep ort a s we ll as th e ma .

jority report ?Mr. MA LBY . I d id , sir. They b oth agree .

Mr. CLARK . Th ey b oth agree on wh a t ?Mr. MA LBY . Well, on the fact th a t th e farmer is securing just a b are livmg .

Mr. CLA RK . Th a t is Sena tor L odg e ’

s op inion ,is i t ?

Mr. MA LBY . Tha t is th e minori ty ’

s op inion a lso . I h ave just read tha t . Th e

report is da ted J une 23 , 1 910. I w ill say a ga in,i t may b e important as well as

instructive to inquire wh a t are th e ma teria l causes wh ich h ave necessari ly ledto the increased price of farm production, and aga in I take p leasure in calling

108 REC IPRO C ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

your a ttention to th e se lect commi ttee ’

s rep ort onwages and prices of commodities , a t p age 13 , wh ich is a s follows :

Th e te st imony of p ract ica lly a ll w i tnesses wh o h ave b een fami liar wi th farmcond i tions is to th e effect th a t th e cost of product ion of farm products h as

risen very rap id ly during th e pa st 10 years , wages of farm h and s h ave ih

creased on an average of a b out 60 per cent , and t h e orig ina l investment necessary to secure land h a s p ractica lly doub led during th a t p eriod . Th e richness

of th e virg in so il is d isap p ea ring , and in many loca li ties th e crop averagescan b e ma inta ined only b y the use of expensive fert ili zers, b y ro ta tion ofcrop s, or b y a llow ing t h e ground to lie fa llow .

“

Th e cost of p roducing live stock h as ma teria lly increa sed wi th th e d isap

p earance of th e range , wh ich necessi ta tes producing ca tt le on tame pa sture andh igh -

priced land . W itnesses agree tha t farming op era t ions were conducteda t a loss or, a t the b est, wi th only a very sligh t marg in of profit for severalyears, and tha t only during the p ast two or th ree years h ave farmers b eena b le to secure a fa ir re turn on th eir lab or and investment. ”

Quoting aga in from the same report,at page 8 7 , as fo l lows :

W ages of regular farm h and s h ave increased from 4 5 p er cent to 7 5 p er centduring th e p eriod from 1 900 to 1 9 10. Wages of h arvest hand s have increased

in a b out th e same proportion.

Then fo l lows a table of wages pa id in different port ions of the

U nion, show ing an increase from p er cent to 100 p er cent from1900 to 19 10. A fter this table , they say as fo l lows :

Anoth er cause of t h e increased cos t of p roduction is th e grea t increa se in theva lue of farm land . Th is necessita tes a much grea ter investment.

To substantiate this statement, a table fo llows show ing that th epri ce of farm lands in different portions of our Nation increasedfrom 65 to 257 p er cent from 1900 t o 1 9 10, and added :It will b e thus seen th a t t h e average farm land seems to h ave doub led duringtha t t ime .

It then adds :

Th e cost of p roduc ing live stock h a s increa sed w ith t h e rap id d isapp earance

of t h e range . L ive stock is now largely p roduced on exp ensive lands insteadof on th e range , a t a merely nomina l rent . Th e exp ense of fa ttening ca ttleh a s a lso ma teria lly increased b y rea son of th e advance in la b or cost and in

th e advance of th e cost of feed .

On pag e 90 of the same report it a lso appe ars that there h as beenan increase in th e cost of farm imp lements of perhaps 10 t o 30

p er cent .There can b e no question , there fore , from an examination of these

authorities and others of similar character th at th e increased costof our food products h as been fully accounted for by the increasedcost o f production ,

and th at th e farmer h as benefited but l itt le ifany by reason thereo f

,and is illy prepared to stand any further

losses in profit .

I f he is expected t o do th e work on the farm and furnish our

people with the necessaries of li fe , th e farmer o f t o - day is not re

ce iving too large a price for h is products, or even a larg e price . It

may b e , and p robably is, true that th e consumer is paying a largerprice than formerly , but the answer to this is two fo ld . In th e fi rstplace , the consumer is being p a id a much higher ra te of wages thanformerly, and lives more exp ensive ly and purchases more st .eet articles for consumpt ion ; h is income is more than keeping pa ce w ithth e increased cost of l iving . I desire here to ca l l your attention tosome other it ems which enter into th e cost o f l iving of th e consumer

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1 10 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

scientifi ca lly educate the farmer for the purpose of improving- his

condition and enabling h im to produce more crops on the sameuality of land

,and this h e has succeeded in do ing . The Nati onal

glovemment is spending about a year for th e benefit of thefarmer. The Sta te of New York is spending ab out a year.

How much more is be ing spent throughout the U nited States by thevarious States I am unable to say at th e p resent time , but I knowthat the sum is very large . Every effort i s being made by the Nat ional and State Governments to keep the farmer on th e farm bymaking h is labors profitable and h is home attractive .

Is th e passage of this bill a step in the right direction or not ?A re all of th e e fforts which have been made in th e past and all themoneys expended to go for nothing . Just at a time when the farmersare beg inning to rea lize a fa ir income from the ir efforts and investments are they to b e deprived of it ? A re they to b e to ld that theymust compete w ith all others, and from whatever land—for I apprehend the trouble to b e tha t th e treaty passed w ith Canada is sim lyan entering wedge and that th e U nited States w ill b e compe lled

pto

make a similar treaty w ith all civilized na tions.

It has been suggested that th e present production of Canada isnot sufficient to who lly destroy our markets. Such a suggestionin my judgment is not worthy of serious consideration. Supposeit is not to b e destroyed ; Why is it diminished ? Wh at facts presentthemselves for our ca lm de lib eration to show tha t the farmer is getting too much for h is labor or that h is business is t oo a ttractive . or

w ill b e made more a ttractive by the passage of this bil l ? On the

other hand,what are th e conditions of a manufacturer by which he

comes to Congress and insists tha t the agricultura l interests shouldb e destroyed in order that h e may make sti ll more profit ? Has no t themanufacturer of this country found in the sturdy agriculturistfrom time immemoria l th e warmest and th e best friend he ever h ad ?Have not h is representatives at all times appeared in th e ha lls ofCongress and insisted tha t there should b e a tari ff on what he produced which gave h im a fa ir wage and hi s manu facturer a fa irprofit ? Has indeed th e time come when a manufacturer can sayto the farmer

,

“ I no longer need your assistance , I can get a longwithout you

” The manu fa cturing industry which makes thatstatement w ill fi nd ere many suns have set on future Congresses thath e has counted w ithout his host.A ga in ,

is it good po licy, is it prudent or w ise , to place all of theproducts o f the farmer upon th e free list

,th ereby making free

traders of them all ? Does any one p retent or exp ect tha t when all

tha t th e farmer produced is placed upon the free l ist he w ill notdemand a l i ke reduction or a like competition for all tha t h e purchases, and i f he does, where does this lead us ? Wha t of the future ?Fromwhere i s our income for the su port of th e Government to come.and wha t becomes of our theo ry 0

“

protecting American labor andAmerican industries ?Wh o wro te or who has been authorized t o write into our national

pla tform tha t the laborer is worthy of h is hire,and tha t the same

should b e pro tected by a tariff representing th e difference in th e costof producti on here and abroad with a fa ir profit t o th e producer?Who wro te tha t into that do cument

,or who has been authorized t o

write it into it excep t those engaged in agricultural pursuits Is it

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 1 11

not so pla in tha t all can see tha t the po licy of pro tection must b enationa l and applied t o all our people

,in whatever form of industry

t heymay b e engaged , who e arn the ir da ily bread by th e sweat oft he ir faces, or no t at all? Is it possible tha t our friends from theSouthland should have , for instance , a tariff on the ir tobacco , rice ,sugar, and other things which they produce ; tha t our New En landfriends should have a tariff on co tton and woo len goods and oo tsand sho es ; tha t th e Pa cific slope should have a tariff on their fruitsand wines which they produce

,and tha t the farmers of the country

should have no tariff at all upon anything whi ch they produce , andin particular when no provision is made for a reduction in th e tariffupon anything which they consume ? In other words

, are they t opay a tariff upon everything which they consume for prote ction’

s

sake t o all o thers , and b e abso lutely denied ro t ect ion for themselves ? Where do they come in

,and how are t ey to profit ?

Ne ither can thi s discrimina tion b e justified by any single chapterin the history of our country . The first tariff act

,pa ssed in 1 7 8 9

,

provide s for a tariff of 4 cents p er pound u on che ese,whi ch is one

of the chie f products of th e farmer in th e nit ed States Thi s wasincreased in 18 16 t o 9 cents er pound

,where it rema ined formany

years . Butter be came dutiable a t 5 cents p er pound in 18 4 2,and

under th e revision made a t tha t time th e farm products were placedupon the dutiable list

,where they have rema ined ever since

,except

during the re cipro city period be tween 1 8 5 4 and 18 66,and no party

has ever thought t o remove th e tariff from farm products from tha ttime until thi s . It h as wi thsto od th e a ssaults of free traders andtheorists formore than a century of time

,and is to—day ,

and h as beenfor all time in th e past

,th e very foundation of nationa l pro sperity .

It h as be en th e unbroken history of this country tha t when the

farmers were prosperous th e Na tion wa s prosperous,and when the

farmers were not the who le Na tion suffered . The ir pro sperity h asbeen the nationa l barometer by whi ch the prosperity of all o ther industries has been de termined . It is entire ly safe to say tha t thefuture history of our country will continue t o repea t thi s tru th .

We are informed by th e advoca tes of this bill that th e amount offarm products coming from Canada w ill no t b e a menace and who lldestroy our industries . The avowed obj ect and p urpose of this b llhowever

,is to lower th e price . When we furnish a marke t for th e

Canadian producer, millions of acres of land in their country now

uncultivated wi ll b e ut under cultiva tion and wi ll grow crops forthe consumers in th e ni t ed Sta tes . They have no t as yet extensively cultiva ted these fields , be cause they have h ad no markets intowhi ch they could send the products of the ir so il ; but when you openup to th e farmers of Canada , which country h as a tract of landnearly equa l to tha t of th e U ni ted Sta tes all to ld , all that vast area

whi ch is now uncultiva ted you will fi nd it t o b e cultiva ted t o Justsuch an extent as they can fi nd a profitable marke t for the i r production. It is no t what they have done ; it is what they are capable of

accomplishing .

BROU SSA RD . Wi ll it interrupt you i f I should ask a questi on ?Mr. MA LBY. No t at all.

Mr. BROU SSA RD . Y ou asked a question, whether it was fa i r thatsouthern farmers should have protection on sugar and th e northern

112 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

farmer not have protection on th e agricultura l products of h is farm.

Is it not a fact that in so far as sugar is concerned for many yearswe have been compel led to lab or under the disadvantages whi ch youcompla in are written in this agreement be tween Canada and the

U nited States ?Mr. MA LBY. Y ou mean tha t you have no t h ad suffici ent pro tect i on?Mr.

BROU SSA RD . We have h ad Cuban reciprocity formany years.

Mr. MA LBY. I understand there is a tari on'

your sugar.

Mr.BROU SSA RD . There is a tari ff, but there i s reci proci ty on it a lso .

Mr. MA LBY. Reciprocity where ?Mr. BROU SSARD . With Cuba .

Mr. MA LBY. We l l,to a l imited extent.

Mr. CLARK . What do you mean by to a l imited extent ?Mr. BROU SSA RD . W enty p er cent, is it not ?Mr. MA LBY. We ll , there is—you probably reca l l how much it is.

Mr. CLA RK . But reciprocity does not necessarily mean that art iclescome in free or go into th e o ther country free .

Mr. MA LBY. I understand that. It does not make any d i fferenceto me , so far as my presentation of this case is concerned , i f you ca llit reciprocity or free trade .

Mr. CLA RK. I amnot call ing it anything . I was j ust simply tryingto help you out

Mr. MA LBY. I ammuch obliged to the gentleman.

Mr. CLA RK (continuing ) . O r correct you about a statement, if theyhad a limited reciprocity or partia l reciprocity.

Mr. MA LBY. We l l, I did not mean that.Mr. CLA RK . That is exactly what you sa id .

Mr. MA LBY. No ; what I mean to say is that there is a differencein the tariff rates between the U nited States and Cuba and b etweenthe U nited States and somebody e lse .

Mr. FORDN EY . A s between this country and Cuba the reciprocitytreaty reduced our duty 20 p er cent be low the rate from any othercountry . But this puts those articles on th e free list. It is l imitedas between this country and Cuba , but there is no limit as betweenthis country and Canada .

Mr. MA LBY. There is quite a difference . There is another provision in the bill to which I desire to ca l l your attention, and that isthat the products of th e forest are a lso placed on the free list, orpractica lly so ; not only in th e raw and unmanu factured condition,but a lso manufactured , etc

,

in p a rt icular w ith re ference to lumber.wood pulp , and paper. I have he ard a gre a t dea l sa id about conservat i on by those pe ople who want me t o conserve my property. My con

st i tuents and I have rece ived a gre a t de a l o f gratuitous advice fromconservat o rs o f the forests wh o have no inve s tment s there in. I do notknow o f any good reason why 1 sho uld no t manag e my forest landjust as much as they manage the ir own business .

Mr. CLA RK . Wi ll you al low me to interrupt V011 there ?Mr. MA LBY. Certa inly.

Mr. CLA RK . D o you no t recognize the fact that vou and the manufacturer both—that i s , you sp eak of yourse lf as owi i er of the forestdo you not hold your property subject to th e i ub lic ood ?Mr. MA LBY. Subject to th e public good ?

1 g

Mr. CLARK . Y es.

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1 14 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. FORD NEY . It does no t exist , and you know it .

Mr. RA N D ELL . Mr. Cha irman,it did occur in Texas in 1903 , and the

gentleman is certa inly very rude . His statement is W i thout anytruth in it .

The CH A IRM A N . The committee w il l b e in order.

Mr. MA LBY . I am no t go ing to a ttempt t o discuss a t any p art icu

lar length t h e forestry question beyond ca lling the a ttenti on of thiscommittee t o certa in provisions in the propo sed bi ll whi ch admitsinto the U nited Sta te s from Canada allrough lumber free of duty and

reduces the tariff on all kinds of planed lumber per feet .

The CHA IRM A N . It is the same as it is under th e present law .

Mr. MA LBY . I think you are mistaken about tha t .

Th e CHA IRM A N . I may b e mistaken about tha t . L e t me a sk you

this : Th e present tariff is 7 5 cents on rough lumbe r?Mr. FO RD NEY . No ;Mr. MA LBY . Y es ; p er thousand on rough lumber.

The CHA IRM A N . It is th e same as th e pre sent law .

Mr. MA L BY . Y ou are mistaken about this . A ll rough lumber underthe provisions of th e pre sent bill comes in free o f duty , and the t arifl

’

on planed lumber under th e P ayne tariff bill is de termined byadd in t o th e on rough lumber th e duty now proposed on

plane lumber. In o ther words

,by w ip in out th e duty on rough

umbe r t he duty on planed lumber under t is bill would b e reducedp er fee t

,and will b e dutiable a s fo llows :

Sawed boards , e tc .,planed or finished , 50 cents p er planed

or finished on one side and tongued and gro oved or planed or finishedon two sides , 7 5 cents p er planed or fin ished on two sides andtongued and gro o ved , p er fe e t : planed or finished on

four sides , p er fee t . It will thus b e seen tha t upon all

grades of lumber above enumera ted tha t the reduction of th e presenttariff will b e p er fee t .

Th e obje ct of a pro te ctive tariff on manufa ctured lumber h a s beento induce its importation from Canada into th e U nit ed Sta te s in therough and to b e planed and manufactured here by our own workmen

,and this h as built up a grea t industry in th e U nited States .

A t my own home there are em loyed in th e planing mills seven or

e ight hundred men who have uilt up a large industry by planinglumber which comes chiefly from Canada . In my j udgment , theheavy reduction propo sed upon planed lumber will ruin this greatindustry wherever lo ca ted . Here a ft er i t w ill undoubtedly b e foundt o b e more profitable to lane and manufa cture the lumber a t thelace where it is cut an send it dire ct t o th e marke t s from there .

t can b e done very much cheaper a t th e pla ce of production,

for th e co st of living is much less , and ,be side s .

the y save the freightcharges on tha t which goes to waste by la ii ing . This a t lea st is thejud ment of those who are in a position e st t o know wha t. th e effectof t is proposed legisla tion will b e , and thus , mo st. unne ce ssarily , as

I cla im,one of the greatest industries of our country is go ing to b e

destroyed w i thout the slightest adequa te re turn t o those w 0 are

engaged in i t , and substantia lly , I be lieve , without benefit t o a singleconsumer. If there b e a temporary decrease in the price of lumberby reason of thi s propo sed chan e ,

it must of necessi ty operate disadvantageously to all of the lum er dea lers in our own country who

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CANAD A . 1 1 5

own hi gh-

priced lands and p ay th e highest wage s in the world as com

pared wi t _

o thers engaged in th e same industry . But,as I sta ted

in the beginning , i t i s no t my purpose to discuss a t length thi s veryimportant subject , for there are o thers t o fo llow who are more intimately acqua inted with th e subje ct than I am.

I may say tha t I observe , in pa ssing ,tha t iron ore is reduced t o

10cents p er t on ,and perhaps tha t is so because it is ano ther industry

in whi ch our people are engaged .

The CHA IRM A N . But you are aware tha t th e tariff on iron ore isno menace t o our industry owing t o th e low grade of the ore ?Mr. MA LBY . I have no t gone into th e que stion of grade .

I amsimply sta ting wha t I fi nd here , and our Canadian bre thren e videntlythough t it was an advantage t o have the tariff lowered t o 10 centsper t on .

Now,there is one thing more of very grea t importance t o which

I desire t o ca ll your a ttention .

I have re ad with grea t care t he rovisions of the proposed trea tywith re ference t o th e admission of

3

w ood pulp and p a er into theU ni ted Sta tes , and I must admit tha t it s provisions are y no means

clear,and

,in fa ct

,I think will b e found no t t o carry into effe ct th e

views of th e high—contra cting partie s . It is re a lly b ad enough as itis

,b ut t o have any mistake made about it would b e worse . It must

b e borne in mind tha t th e various Provinces of Canada own wha t iscalled “ Crown lands ,

and ea ch Province h a s th e abso lute right todetermine wha t sha ll b e done with it s own products . Th e Provinceof Ontario about 12 ye ars ago prohibited the exportation of any ofthe products of th e forests in rough sta te t o th e U nited States .

This po licy wa s fo llowed by th e Province of Quebe c just re cently .

The que stion now arise s under th e treaty,just what are we getting ?

It does no t say in expre ssed terms,a s it should

,that th e benefits of

the American marke ts sha ll no t b e open t o th e Canadian manufac

turers of paper until all restrictions of wha tsoever kind are removedby th e various Province s . On th e contrary

,it is uite po ssible

,and

it is my construction that paper manufa ctured rom wood cut on

lands owned by individua ls would b e admi ssible into th e U nitedStates whether th e restrictions now ma inta ined by th e various provisions are removed or no t . If I am correct in thi s constructionthe outrage of such legisla tion would simply b e increa sed . Th e billshould at least b e amended so as t o lea ve no error in it upon thisvery important que stion ,

for unle ss the American manufacturer of

paper secures a fre e and unlimited supply from Canada,then there

is absolute ly no excuse wha tso ever for t h e terms of thi s tre a ty so far

as thi s industry is concerned .

There was an exhaustive inquiry made into th e que stion of the

duty on print p a er by a committee of whi ch our friend from Illinois,Mr. Mann

,was c airman two years ago ,

and whi le I did not agree

with his deductions and conclusions , he reported a t tha t time thatthere ought t o b e a duty of $2 p er t on on whi te print paper. A ftera very careful investigation ,

Mr. Cha irman, you and th e members of

this commi ttee concluded t o agree with him on a $2 tariff a t on ,and

I think tha t in good conscience you felt tha t that was very low . The

bill went'

t o the Sena te and they concluded tha t $4 p er t on more cor

rectly represented th e required tariff, and Congress fina lly comproI'

ni sed on p er t on .

1 1 6 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Further, I have been informed upon th e best of authori ty that thePresident of the U nited States a t tha t time stated that th e papermakers had made a better ca se than anyone else who had appearedbefore him for a prote ctive ta riff upon their industri es . Thi s subjecthas since that time b een referred t o the Tariff Board , wh i ch, durinth e ast year, h as made an exhaustive in uiry into th i s

_

sub ] ect an

near y completed their investiga tions , an I am au thori tative ly advised that notwithstanding this fact tha t this Tariff Board has neverbeen asked by the President of t h e U nited States o r an one else as

t o the results of their labors , a lthough a quarter of a mi 11011 do llarswas appropria ted for the ir use , and th e avowed

.purg

ose of creatingthe board was t o advise the President of the U ni ted tates in enforc

ing the provisions of the P ayne tariff law ,and a lso to enable him

t o more corre ctly advise Congress as t o any rev isi on of the vari ousschedules which, in h is judgment

,was ne cessary .

The CHA IRM A N . This committee has reported a reso lution calliggupon the Tariff Board for informa tion on tha t subject, and I thi

it may be passed when the House sees fit to consider it.Mr. MA LBY. I hope so . But of what good W i ll it b e to me to have

that Tariff Board report a fter this committee has ac ted ? There i sn’t

much fun in tha t.Mr. FORDNEY. There is no use to lock th e barn a fter th e horse is

sto len.

Mr. MA LBY. Not much . I am informed that that information isa lready at hand .

Mr. CLA RK. I f that is true,then as soon as we pass this reso lution

we w i ll get the in formation ,won

’t we ?Mr. MA LBY. I know

,but

Mr. CLA RK . A nd these hearings are not go ing to close until 5o’clock next Thursday.

Mr. MA LBY. I f I g et even an intimation from this committee thatth e report of that commission is to rece ive consideration I havenothing more to say .

The CHA IRM A N . What is that ?Mr. MA LBY. I f the Tariff Board’

s report is go ing to rece ive con

sideration.

The CHA IRM A N . Wel l,this committee w il l b ring the resolution

befpre the House , and i f th e House adopts it

,as I presume they

WI

Mr. MA LBY. I understand,Mr. Cha irman

,but Why do we try to

dece ive ourselves ? There is no use in tha t. I am aware of thefact that unless th e high contracting parties b etween the U nitedS tates and Canada get tog ether aga in tha t this treaty must stand or

fall as- it is. I f they get together and resume th e negotiat ions and

el iminate. paper or establish a different schedule for paper then wewould b e permitted as a Congress to act upon it ; but we must e itheraccept th e recommendations as a who le or not at all

,i f this treatv

i s to go into effect.Th is

.

is one of the greatest industries, in fact. the second greatestSing le industry in the U nited States of America . Its capital isrepresented by tens of mil lions of do llars. The amount pa id yearlyto the laborers is represented in mill ions of do llars. Its toilers are

numbered by th e tens of thousands. W hat h as it done that it should

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1 1 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

p lace th e producer of these articles upon both sides a t a d i sadvantagewith reference to such production . Take th e present proposed treatyas an example . The farmer’

s p roducts of all kinds are placed uponth e free list , While the Canadian manu facturer i s supposed in con

sidera tion thereo f and of benefits accruing to reduce th e tari ff whi chis h is protection upon the art icles which h e produces . Nothing isplaced u on the free list for th e benefit of e ither, yet they are com

p elled to ear the who le burden for th e a lleged benefit of o thers.

’

For

instance,what return does the A merican farmer recei ve in consi dera

tion for the placing of all of h is products upon th e free l i st and

which at the same time places him in competition w ith th e producersof other lands ? I submit that h e re ce ives no thing in return for thissacrifi ce on h is part . He still continues t o work h is farm,

which hascost h im much more than h is competitor ; pays more for the wages

o f h is farm hands and purchases all of th e necessaries of. li fe forhimsel f and family in th e highest markets o f the world . No tariffis reduced on anything which he purchases but only on that whichh e produces . He pays j ust as high prices as be fore on th e necessariesof li fe . Where , then ,

does he come in ? He simply doesn’t come in.

He is le ft to shift for himsel f as best he can,bearing th e additional

burdens of state for th e benefit of others .

A t th e same time h ow fares it w ith th e Canadian manufacturer?U nder the provisions of this bill he is a lso ca l led upon to make sacrifi ce . He finds tha t everything tha t h e and h is employ ees purchasehas gone up in p rice , and at the same t ime h e is forced into competition w ith a strong neighbor w ith re ference to a ll tha t he produces.

C learly , these tw o classes o f citizens,to w it

,th e American farmer

and the Canadian manu facturer, are be ing discrimina ted aga inst fora more favored class. In this case th e American farmer is discriminated aga inst in favor o f th e American manufacturer

,and on the

other hand th e Canadian manufacturer is discriminated aga instin favor of the Canadian farmer. In other words

,one class of

our citizens are made to suffer a loss for th e proposed benefit of

ano th er,which po l icy no party can stand and endure

,for th e rea

son that it is grossly un fa ir as we ll as unequa l treatment of our citizens wh o are

_

b e ing discriminated ag a inst . There sh ould and mustb e equa lity o f opportunity, or the principa l of protect ion must perish .

For myse l f , I am a protectionist . I believe in th e principa l of universa l protection , but i t must ap ply equa l ly to all. It must applyto all parts o f our common country

,equally to th e til lers of the soil

and to those eng aged in manufacture . Then the principa l is sa fe ;o therw ise it must erish

,for th e people w il l no more endure ha lf

protection and h al free trade than our fore fa thers would suffer our

Nation to rema in h a lf free and ha l f slave . It must b e one or theother, and now is th e time when tha t quest ion is to b e determined .

.

Th e human race is like a man lost. in the forests—it moves inC ircles, but we come back to the starting po int in t ime . So it is w ithre ference to th e Canad ian reciprocity . for in 1 8 54 a trea tv w as con

cluded between the U ni ted States and Great Brita in . Great Brita inacting in beha l f of Canada , wh ich placed substantia l ly all th e p roducts o f the farm upon the free l ist in considera tion of

'

certa in al leg edconcessi ons

'

in favor of our manu facturing industries. This treatyw as t o cont inue for a period of 10 years and as much longer as the

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 1 19

contracting parties should mutua l ly agree . It is interesting to notethe workings of the treaty and the results. It is sufficient to saythat the imports into th e U nited States during the time the treatycontinued in force , t o w it , from 1 8 54 to 1 8 66

,increased 261 p er cent.

I quote the followin from a report of th e committe e of the CanadianPrivy Council , date February 19

,18 64 , viz :

It would b e imp ossi b le to express in fi gures w i th a ny ap proach to accuracy

the ex tent to w h ich. th e faci li ti cs of commerci a l intercourse crea ted by th e reci

proci ty tre a t /y ha re con tri but ed to th e wea lth and prosp eri ty of th is province ;and i t would b e (lifi

‘icult to cr agg era te th e imp ortance wh ich t h e p eop le of

Canada a t ta ch t o th e co nt inued enjoymen t of t h ese faci li ti es.

While it w ill thus b e seen that th e treaty was in great favor, onaccount of the benefits conferred , w ith Canada , h ow is it looked uponby the people of th e U nited States ? I fi nd that on January 1 8 , 1 8 65 ,notice w as g iven by this country to Great Brita in of its intention toabrogate th e trea ty on th e grounds

“ tha t i t was no long er for the

interests o f the U ni ted S ta tes to con tinue the same in force .

”

This te lls the who le story so far as th e U nited States is concerned .

The treaty lasted 12 years, and came to an ignominous end on March17 18 66 , and no statesman worthy of the

'

name h as sought to reviveit up to the present day .

The efforts of Bla ine and McK inley for recipro city w ith th e Central and South American Stat es have been as fruitless as th e Cana

dian treaty . They w ere w iped out unceremoniously by th e passageof the W ilson tariff bill (A ugust 28 , 1 8 94 ) and nothing h as beenheard of them since . Th e difficulty o f such arrangements I haveattempted to point out , t o w it : It is impossible to dea l fa irly and

without discrimination w ith our people , but on th e other hand itfavors one interes t t o th e dert iment of anoth er, for which no partycan b e responsible .

Mr. STA FFORD . Mr. Chairman ,there are representatives here from

the ma lting interests in Illino is . M innesota , and W isconsin . Mr.

Bruno E. F ink , of M ilw aukee,is here on behal f of the ma lt ing a sso~

ciations. and I am told there is an accredited representative here fromthe Soc iety of Equity wh o would like to b e h eard on the subj ect o fadmitting barley free of duty .

The CH A IRM A N . How many appear for your interests ?Mr. STA FFORD . Only one app earing for th e malting interests .

The CH A IRM A N . Whom do the oth ers represent ?Mr. STA FFORD . One is from the Society of Equity.

Mr. LONGWORTH . What is th a t ?Mr.

’

STA FFORD . A n organization of the farmers of th e I’Vest thatlooks to th e betterment of th e wel fare of th e farmer. It i s a veryextensive organizat ion throughout th e M iddle West .

STATEMENT OF MR . BRU NO E. FINK.

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee , we have come hereas manufacturers of ma lt and as th e duly accredited representativesof all th e othermanufacturers of ma lt in th e Middle Western States.

We have come to reg ister the ir unanimous protest aga inst the ratifi cat ion of that part of the proposed reciprocity agreemen t wh i chwould place barley and barley ma lt on th e free list.

1 20 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

We h ave hitherto never appea red be fore you and there fore now

b eg leave to lay be fore your honorable body some of the facts thatunderlie our reasons for opposing the duty - free admi ssmn of barleyand barley ma lt . They are :

F irst. Th e production of ma lting barley is not general throughoutthe U nited State s and Canada , but in both countries is limi ted to thosesections where climatic and agricultura l conditions are favorable toits growth . In th e U nited States th e States of W i sconsin, Iowa,M innesota , and th e two Dakotas produce the good ma lting barley,which is the source of supply of all th e ma lting plants in th e U nitedStates east of the R ocky Mounta ins.

Second . Practica lly 80 p er cent of th e ma lting plants in th e U nitedStates are located in close proximity to th e aforementioned fi ve

States, name ly, in Illino is, W isconsin ,Iowa

,M innesota , South D a

kota , and Nebraska . They were erected during th e past 15 to 20years under protective laws.

Third . A bout 20 p er cent of th e ma lting plants in the U nitedStates are located in the East

,w ith Buffa lo as th e center

,which di s

trict w ill b e greatly favored by th e proposed reciproc ity agreementto th e great disadvantage of the 80 p er cent in th e M iddle West.Mr. CLA RK . Why would Buffa lo b e favored by this bil l any more

than you would b e ?Mr. F IN K. That w il l appear in th e course of th e argument.Mr. CLA RK . Very wel l , then.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Just a moment there . Y ou say barley and b arley ma lt ?Mr. FIN K . Y es.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Where do you get barley ma lt ?Mr. F IN K . Barley ma lt being the direct product of barle natu

ra lly would enter into consideration because of th e great pro abilitythat , directly there w i ll b e free barley , there w i ll b e a period oferection of ma lt houses in Canada , which could send the barley maltover instead of the barley

,and that would make th e situation worse,

if it were contemplated to place barley ma lt upon th e free list a longside of barley itse l f .Mr. LON GWORTH . But this bill does not provide that barley ma lt

s

fiall b e placed there ; it only provides that barley sha l l b e placed

t ere .

Mr. F IN K . Then I sha ll b e very g lad t o eliminate the wordsbarley malt ”

wherever they are used conj o intly w ith barley .

0

Mn?

CLA RK . That would change y our who le po s ition then,

‘

wouldi t not

Mr. F IN K . NO,sir ; no t a particle .

Mr. CLA RK . It seems to me i f you w ere t o cut out th e thing youwere comp la ining ab out you would quit compla ining .

Mr. FIN K . NO ; I b eg your pardonMr. CLA RK . I don’t want to interrupt you. Go on.

Mr. L ONGWORTH . What is barley ma lt ?Mr. F INK . It is an article manu factured from barley .

Mr. LON GWORTI—I. But its position rema ins exac t ly'

as it is underthe present law .

Mr. FIN K . Wha t I have to say in my argument w il l apply tobarley, because th e arguments are applicable in both cases .

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1 22 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. F IN K . W ill you repeat that ?Mr.HILL. I say , can the Northwest barley compe te in the U ni ted

Sta tes, entire ly amongst ourselves , w ith th e Ca l i fornia barley ?Mr. F IN K . Y es, 0

Mr.HILL. Then why can not you compete W i th the Canad i an

barley—if things equa l to the same thi ng are equa l to each other?M r. F IN K . A s the argument. proceeds, I w ill reach that p omt .

Mr. HILL . A ll righ t .

Mr. CLA RK . Now ,I want to ask you ano ther quest ion. Is it not

true that you people up there in th e D akotas and M inneso ta andWisconsin and Nebraska ra ise barley because you can not ra iw corn ?Mr. FIN K . Hardly that. We could easily turn to other cerea ls on

account of the modern ideas as to crop rota tion ,and they are taking

fi rm ho ld of the people .

Mr. CLA RK . Who sa id tha t th e barley ra ised in those fi ve Statesis superior to the barley ra ised in M issouri and Kansas and Kentuckyand that belt ; did th e farmers say so or th e ma l tsters say it ?

Mr. F IN K . Because the e lementa l qua l ities of barley have longbeen tested by ract ical use .

Mr. CLA RK . ere did they g et barley be fore they settled thoseSta tes ?Mr. F IN K . Barley was imported a t one time from Canada . I

re cal l when there was a duty of 15 cents a bushe l , there were importedinto this country over bushels of barley from Canada .

The CH A IRM A N . That was p rior to 1 8 90Mr. F IN K . That was a t a t ime when th e production of beer w as less

than one - ha l f of the vo lume tha t marks th e business at th e presentt ime .

Th e CH A IRM A N . Is no t this a fact—w ithout spending too muchtime on it : That under those conditions there w as a low duty on bar

ley , and a great dea l of barley w as imported from lower Canada intoNew York

,into Ro chester, and O sw ego , and other places where there

were ma lt houses on th e border. and when th e brewers required lightma lt for a light - co lored beer. which is a kind of beer they made thento a large extent

,that that bushels or bushels

came in a lmost exclusively from Canada prior to th e enactment of

th e McKinley bill ? Have vour researches gone back a s far as that ?Mr. F IN K . Y es.

The CH A IRM A N . A nd then the McK inley bill came a long w ith this30- cent duty demanded by y ou people in th e “T

est , and it w as put onbarley, and immediately a lmost b y mag ic not only stopped th e importation Of barley from Canada , but stop ed th e ra ising of barleyin New York and transferred th e businessgo a poorer barley in theDakotas ?Mr. CA LD ERIIEA D . Because th e land w a s cheaper.

The CH A IRM A N . I w il l leave out th e poorer : but transferred it toth e D ako tas and W isconsin and M innesot a. and those S tates ?Mr. F IN K . L et me inform the gentleman tha t th e qua lity of the

barley ra ised in the M iddle \Vestern S ta tes is of such fi ne quality thatth e other day a prize bush e l of that barley so ld a t $74 . That w as forseeding purposes—1 bushe l .The CH A IRM A N . \Vell , our people have stopped ra ising barley ; but

when they did ra ise barley they go t a better price for the irma lt thanyou d i d up there in W isconsin : It was lighter, i t was not sta ined .

REC IPROCITY W ITH CANAD A . 1 23

It did not make the dark beer, and eop le wanted the light beer thosedays. Now they have got weaned om th e light beer, largely I suppose , on account of necessity. Now you are demanding a prohibitiveduty on barley from CanadaMr. F IN K . Y ou are no t quite exactly in formed

, Mr. Cha irman .

The CH A IRM A N . What is that ?Mr. F IN K . I take it you are no t quite correctly informed on the

subj ect of th e qua l ity of th e barley .

The CH A IRM A N . D o you admit the rest of th e statement ? D o youadmit that 50 cents a bushe l is prohibitory ?Mr. F IN K . It is prohibitory ; y es , sir

, as to th e importation ofCanadian barley, and w ith th e View of a ffording protection t o theAmerican barley ra iser.

Th e CH A IRM A N . A nd you admit that 15 cents a bushel would b epractica lly prohibitory ? W il l you admit that ?Mr. FIN K . NO , sir ; it w il l no t b e prohibitory.

because they broughtover bushels into th e U n ited States from Canada a lone a tthe time when the duty was 1 5 cents.

Mr. CLA RK . How much do they bring in now ?

Mr. F IN K . Nothing at this time .

Mr. CLA RK . It is prohibitive , then .

Mr. FIN K . For th e p rot ection of th e American farmer.

Mr. CLA RK . No ; you must not“

say it is prot ection i f it is p rob ibitory.

The CH A IRM A N . It p rotects D akota barley and D akota ma lt aga instNew York barley and New York malt . It h as driy en our p eopleout of business ent irely .

Mr. F INK . I f vou w ill kindly permit me to cont inue I sha ll reachthat po int .

The CH A IRM A N . Go on , then .

Mr. D A LZELL . He seems to h ave tramp ed on th e toes of New York .

The CH A IRM A N . No t a t all ; but I l ike. g entlemen t o come up hereand state things just as they are

,and cla im th e bruta l p rivi leg e of

keeping people out o f th e business entirely and keeping it for themselves.

Mr. FORD NEY. I think th e gentleman is trying to state it as h e nuderstands it . Maybe other people do not understand it as h e does.

Mr. FIN K . Certa inly ; there are two sides to every question, and Iam trying to present my side .

The CHA IRM A N . I f there was nothing e lse in the treatv but that,I would b e for it on all fours.

Mr. FIN K . Our plants are useless for any other purpose than ma lting . They can not b e moved at w ill . They W i ll b e a dead loss to us

,

and we,l itera lly speaking . wil l b e leg islated out of b usmess i f the

free admiss ion o f b arley under th e proposed reci proci ty treatyagreement becomes a law of th e land . Not only that , but the cultivation of barley here would practica l ly become obso lete , for dutyfree Canadian barley would drive our American cerea l out of the

fie ld, for the simple reason that land and labor be ing cheaper in

Canada,the Canadian cerea l could b e brought in at a price so low

that our American farmers could not hope to compete w ith It.

Fourth . Eastern Canada supplies th e only real ly good ma lting b arley raised in Canada .

0

Mr. CLARK . Now,Mr. W itness, why is that ? There i s just an

imag inary line between North D akota and M innesota and Canada ,

1 24 BECIPBOCITY W ITH CA NA D A .

and i f this excellent barley is ra ised in North Dakota and Minnesota ,why is it not just as good over the line ?Mr. FIN K . I have sa id eastern Canada .

Mr. CLA RK .I know you sa id eastern Canada produce d all th at was

fit to use in Canada .

Mr. FIN K. Eastern Canada supplies—and when I say that I meanchiefly th e product of Ontario and in that section.

Mr. CLARK . I f that is true , how does it happen tha t they can ra i se

such good ma lting barley in North Dakota and M innesota , right onth e Canadian line , and what is th e reason th ey do

.

not ra i se as goodbarley on th e Canadian side of th at imag inary l ine as they do on

this side of the line ?The CH A IRM A N . I understand th at lower Canada is where they

ra ise their Canadian barley .

Mr. CLA RK . Y es ; h e cla ims in one breath the best barley 1S ra isedin northern M innesota , W isconsin ,

and in th e D akot a s and yet whenit comes to Canada h e say s the best barley is no t ra ised on the otherside of that imag inary line in that reg ion, but in eastern Canada ,much farther south .

The CH A IRM A N . He is right on th e last proposit ion,b ut no t on the

first.Mr. CLA RK . Then ,

i f your statement b e true , the farther south y ou

g o the better barley you ought to ra ise .

The CHA IRM A N . Oh , no .

Mr. FIN K . The climatic conditions, gentlemen, in respect to the

P rovince of Ontario and up in th e W innipeg country are not the

same . L ikew ise,th e conditions of the so il are different , as you wil l

ge

la

ble to easi ly ascerta in from a re ference to statistics in the brew ing

e d .

A s I sa id be fore,eastern Canada supplies the only real ly ood

ma lting barley raised in C anada . The supply is adj acent to Buéalo .

Buffalo and o ther eastern malting po ints now obta in their supply of

American barley from the a forement ioned fi y e barley -

growingSta tes of th e U nited States

,via the Great L akes, at a freight cost

which enables these eastern ma lting plants to compete on an equalbasis with the great ma lting plants of Illino is, W isconsin, M innesota ,South Dakota

,and Nebraska . Free barley

,however

,would g ive

Buffalo an unfa ir and insurmountable advanta e over the latter.

Insurmountable,because the largest consumers o barley ma lt—that

is to say , the brewing industry of th e eastern States—are not far

distant from Buffalo .

Mr. CLA RK . The Whole thing then reso lves itse l f into this : Thata fter practicing this high tari ff system on all of us for a centuryyou fall out among yourse lves now and are fight ing each o ther as lbwh o sha l l g et the best o f it .Mr. FINK.We h ave a lw ay s h ad th a t little difference o f argument

w ith Buffalo,have a lways had tha t controversy. and I am here to

pddu

ge a reason why tha t plea of Buffa lo should never be enter

ameMr. CLA RK . This thing reso lves itsel f into a fight , then, between

New York makers of ma lt and th e western fe llows,and the rest

o f us have nothing on earth to do w ith it .Mr. FINK . Not quite as sectiona l as you seem to think or at fi rst

blush would , perhaps, appear. L et me repea t this sentence . Free

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1 26 REC IPRO C ITY WITH. CA N AD A .

Mr. FINK . Y es, sir.

The CHA IRM A N . So you would b e at no more di sadvantage 1f you

g ot the barley loaded on the L akes from Canada and brought to thera ilroad in the West—not M ilwaukee , particularly , but the otherpoints where you have your ma lt houses—and then had It transported by lake , you would have as much advantage as Buffalo , would

you not , in the case of barley grown in Canada ?Mr. FIN K. The ma lting plants in th e East , Buffa lo and New York

C ity, where there is one,are so equipped w ith e levator machinery

and so located at the wa ter’s edge that carg oes can easi ly b e brought

right into the plant, whereas th e ma lt house in the West

The CHA IRM A N . Then you have got t o e liminate the point of eley atormachinery for yourma lt houseMr. FIN K . Oh , no ; the loca tion of th e house is different. Our

ma lt houses in the West are not lo ca ted a t the'

water’s edge . Our

ma lt houses in the Middle West are lo cated at interior po ints wherethey have good ra i lroad facilities but no t w ater facilities.

Mr. CL ARK . Why would it no t have been e asy to have located themin Chicago and Milwaukee a t the water’

s edge as for somebody inBuffa lo to locate theirs at th e water

'

s edge ?Mr. FIN K . I can only assure the gentleman that i f we h ad had

any intimation or divination that it would b e proposed to enact areciprocity agreement such as the one under considerat ion, we wouldnever have built our houses anywhere except Buffa lo .

Mr. HILL . I want to ge t a t th e merits o f th e general proposition.

I am disturbed about thi s Ca l i fornia situation . Is it not true , then.

that Cal i fornia barley does not come east ; that aside from th e amountthey consume on the P acific coast they h ave no benefit from this dutythat now exists on barley ?Mr. F IN K . That is true .

Mr. HIL L . Then they are practica lly on free - trade terms on theP acific coast now w ith Canada except for the surplus, only their surplus shipment . How much do they ra ise on the P acific CoastMr. FINK . I have not th e statistics w ith me at the present t ime.

but I think it is somewhere aroundA VO ICE. bushels ; yes.

Mr. HILL . Then one - fi fth of th e entire crop of the U nited Statesnow is on a free- trade basis ?Mr. F IN K . But wi ll you please bear in mind one other thing , and

that is purely technica l , tha t the brewers of the U nited States pre fernot to use the character of barley that is ra ised on the P acific coast ?Mr. HILL. That is all right ; but they ra ise it in competition w ith

Canada and sell it in the same market.Mr. FIN K . They ra ise it for home consump t ion and for export

,be

cause the character of th e barley ra ised on the P acific coast is somewhat simi lar to the character of the barley that is brewed in thebreweries and the ale factories of Europe .

Mr. HILL. What are they go ing to do for beer when this great exposi t-Ion comes off at San Francisco ?Mr. FINK . I might say that when it comes to em loying barley for

bo ttle - beer purposes, even the brewers of the P aolfi c coast resort tothe b arley grown in our section of th e country and do not use theirown barley for that purpose .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 1 27

Mr. CLA RK . D o you suppose that Congress is go ing to enter intoa squabb le ab out this tariff business between the interests at Buffa loand the interests out in your part of th e country ? That is all thereis about this thing th at you are fighting over.

Mr. FIN K . But , gentlemen , our plea . is simply to let well enoughalone . We are all getting a long nicely at Buffa lo

,as wel l as in the

West. The business at Buffa lo i s increasing beauti fully . They haveadvantages there that place them on a parity w ith us from the IVestall a lon the line .

The HA IRM A N . How many mil lions of do llars were de stroyed inNew York State , money invested in ma lting property , by the increaseof the duty to 30 cents a bushe l—property a t O sw ego and other townsa long th e lake ?Mr. F IN K . I am no t prepared to state the va lue

, but I w il l say thisin op po si t 10n to your question : That the art of ma lting since thattime has undergone most radica l ch anges, and th a t old - time houses,such as you refer to , would no long er b e in the runn ing , no ma tterwhere they located .

Th e CH A IRM A N . They were w iped out completely ; they h ad no

Chance to put in new houses or a new style ofma lting .

Mr. F IN K . It was a case of the surviva l of th e fittest , and thatdrove them to th e barley fie lds of the M iddle “Test

,where they prop

erly belong , unless you intend t'

o legislate for Canada , and i f th atis so I agree w ith th e prop osition that th e p lace to loca te is Buffa lo .

Mr. CLA RK . t a o i f we annex Canada ?

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou h ad better think of it . because that is what weare all fi xing to do .

Mr. FIN K . “l

ill the gentleman a llow me to continue , just one morepoint. A s I have sa id , this supply is adj acent t o Buffa lo . Buffa loand other eastern ma lting po ints now obta in the ir supply of barleyfrom the a forementioned fi ve barley -

grow ing States of the U nitedStates via the Great L akes at a fre ight cost which enables these eastern malting plants to compete on an equa l basis w ith th e great ma lting plants o f Illino is

,W isconsin

,M innesota

,South D akota

,and

Nebraska . Free barley,however, would g ive Buffa lo an unfair and

insurmountable advantag e over th e lat ter. Insurmountable becausethe largest consumers of barley ma lt are not far distant from Buffa lo .

Buffa lo would thus enj oy a double advantage as comp ared w ith themiddle west ern ma ltsters

,because the latter would have to draw th e

Canadian barley a long distance to their respective plants , t o beginwith

, and would th en have t o send it back aga in over th e same ra i ls,as it w ere

, and right through Buffa lo , for that ma tter,to th e con

sumer in the far East in th e form of malt . Buffa lo ma ltst ers , therefore . if they favor this reciprocity agreement , do so not for the pur

pose of relieving themse lves of any existing burden, but in order tosecure this very advantage over the ir western competi tors.

Mr. HILL . 1 would like to ask a question. I am seeking information and am not asking these quest ions to bother you at all. Y ou

can not compete with Canada in making barley ma lt i f barley is free ,can you ?Mr. F INK . Farmers can not afford to ra ise i t in our country.

Mr. HIL L . I see by th e statistics,which I have be fore me , that the

U nited States exported to Canada last year pounds of b arley. Will you exp la in that ?

1 28 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CAN A D A .

Mr. FINK . There may b e some person in this room—the very gentleman who so ld th e goods that w ent into Canada may r

b c here .

Mr.HILL

. Where did that g o from, do you suppose ?

Mr. F INK . Is there anybody here famil iar ‘

W l th that ?

Mr.BU LLEN . That came from W inona , M inn.

Mr.HILL

. Then they could ra ise barley there and make malt ?

Mr.BU LLEN .

It was so ld to a gent leman in Seattle and h e re

quested that part of it b e del ivered in Vancouver.

Mr. HILL . Then they could compete ?Mr.

BU LLEN . I don’t know wha t the duty is ; I so ld th at deliveredat Portland and Seattle.

Mr.HILL. Y ou not only so ld it there , but it p a id the duty.

Mr.BU LLEN . I h ad nothing to do w ith the duty. The brewer at

Portland had to stand tha t.Mr.

HILL. That is not the po int. What I want to fi nd out 18

whether it can b e done or not .

Mr. BU LLEN . I don’t know th e duty.

Mr. HILL . Forty- fi ve cents a hundred pounds, go ing into Canada,

End it paid that duty and there were pounds that went intoanada.

Mr. BU LLEN . I sold that chea to Canada .

Mr. HILL. D id you sel l this w ole lot ?

Mr. BU LLEN . No ; not th e who le lot . I believe there were aboutbushels

Mr. HILL . Wh at does it we igh ?Mr. BU LLEN . Thirty - four pounds to the bushel.Mr. CLA RK . There is about as much go ing to Canada as coming

from Canada here , then ?Mr. FIN K . Wil l you let me state tha t th e po ints in western Can

ada where some of this barley went , are in direct competition withAmerican beers and it is b ut. natura l there fore that those brewersnear the Ameri can boundary in far western Canada , where theyra ise no barley to speak of anyhow

,should seek to employ in the

manu facture of their beer th e same barley that the competing beersfrom the U nited States were made from.

Mr. CLA RK . That comes righ t back t o that same question that Ihave asked you a ha l f a do zen t imes. N ow

,i f th e barley in North

Dakota and Minnesota is so good tha t th e Canadian brewers want it,what is th e reason that they do not get th e barley and the barleyma lt from Canada right over th e l ine from M innesota ,W isconsin, andthe Dakotas ?Mr. F IN K. Mr. Cha irman

,w ill you pardon me for saving to the

speaker that there are reasons which actuate a businessman, reasonsthat are perhaps not easily understood . except from the case I havejust mentioned . I f I am right on th e Canadian l ine and I am tryingto sell a beer tha t I make there and my strongest competition comesright from the States in th e form of bee rs that have a reputation, itis but natura l that I should seek to employ th e same raw material forthe manufacture of my beer, in order that I may say to my trade,Now. please , th ere can no t b e anv difference ; I am also getting myma lt from over there.

”

Mr. CLA RK . Wha t perce ivable difference is there in the barleyra i sed on the northern border of North Dako ta and M innesota andthe barley ra ised on the south end of the Canadian possessions alongthere ? That Is an imag inary line .

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1 30 REC IPRO C ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. FO RD N EY . Then this trea ty proposes to reduce th e duty veryma terial ly b e low that now co llected by th e U nited States on barleyma lt .Mr. HILL. F ifty p er cent.Mr. F IN K . The present schedule in force in Canada on barley com

ing into Canada from o ther countries is not our basis.

Mr. FORD N EY . P ardon me aga in ,so I w i ll understand clearly

Now,we co llect 4 5 cents a bushe l on barley ma lt under our law

,the

P ayne tariff law ?Mr. F IN K . Y es. sir.

Mr. FORDN EY. Canada co llects 4 5 cents p er hundred pounds.

Mr. F IN K . There are 3 bushe ls in 100 pounds.

Mr. FORD NEY. A nd when this goes into effect it is proposed wesha l l co llect 4 5 cents a hundred on Canadian barley ma lt cominginto this country. Will that change our ra te of duty from existinglaw ?Mr. F IN K . Cert a inly ; 4 5 cents p er hundred is about 15 cents a

bushel .Mr. FORD NEY . That is the po int I want to make .

Mr. FIN K . And the present basis is 4 5 cents a bushe l .The CH A IRM A N . Now ,

let us get the who le of that.Mr. FORD N EY . Wh en it was sta ted tha t there was no cha e

The CH A IRM A N . I sa id that there was no change in th e di erential.

The duty on barley coming into the U nited State s is 30 cents a

bushel .Mr. F IN K. Y es.

The CH A IRM A N . A nd the duty on barley ma lt is 4 5 cents ?Mr. FINK . Y es.

The CHA IRM A N . So the differentia l is 15 cents a bushe l ?Mr. F IN K . Y es.

The CHA IRM A N . A nd the barley coming in here free and barleyma ltat 4 5 cents a hundred is 15 cents a bushe l differentia l duty

,is

it not

Mr. F INK . Y es,sir.

The CHA IRM A N . So th e differentia l duty is th e same under thisproposed treaty or under the law ?Mr. FORD NEY. The differentia l between something and nothingmakes a pile of difference .

The CHA IRM A N . But that does not answer th e inquiry you were

trying t o make .

Mr. FORD NEY. I h ad reference to the remark made by Mr. Longworth and not the chairman. He made that statement.Mr. F IN K . Now

,I would like to come to what I ca l l the principal

p art of the argument and I w i l l b e as brief as possible .

We do not know the reasons which prompted His Exce llency thePresident of the U nited States to formulate or negotiate th e prop osed reciprocity agreement, but i f we are to understand it as an

effort on h lS part to secure for th e people of th e U nited States a

reducti on in th e cost of living by li ft ing the import duty from neces

siti es of li fe , then, so far as barle and barley ma lt are concerned,the effort fa ils utterly of accomp ish ing th e purpose intended

,b e

cause the ri ce of a g lass of beer w ill rema in at 5 cents, as heretofore,whether t e materials out of which it is made

,namely

,barley and

b arley malt, p ay an import duty or not .

REC IPROCITY W ITH CA NA D A . 131

The CH A IRM A N . R ight there , you remember,when we h ad the

Spanish War tax we added a dol lar of tari ff on beer,and you gentle

men—I do not know whether you yourse l f , but some gentlemenrepresenting th e brew ing interests—came here and desired to havethat tax taken off ; and when we asked them i f it made any differenceto the consumer, they said yes, because they were emp loyin a g lassthat held less beer under the extra do llar a barrel , but tha t i we tookthat do llar off they would go back to the old - sized g lass [ laughter] ,possibly out of their genero sity , and possibly because competitionbrought them to it. We asked them i f we h ad free beer would theynot get still a l ittle larger g lass ; and then they sa id

,in addition to

that,that most of the beer was so ld by measure , t in pa ils and pit

chers, and all that sort of thing , and th e extra tari ff made a differencein the price p er quart . That is what they sa id ; I am not saying it istrue . They sa id it made a difference

,so that they made up th e extra

tax that way . There w as no truth in all that ?Mr. F INK. No

,sir.

The CHA IRM A N . What are we go in to be l ieve , gentlemen ,what

they sa id at th e time of the Spanish ar tax , when they were tryingto have th e tax taken off

, or wha t they say now . when they are tryingto keep this duty on ? That is What puzzles me . Y ou w ill have mebetween the devi l and th e deep sea . I do no t know where I am.

Mr. FIN K . It is easy to see that in th e case of free whea t the con

sumer would b e benefited .

Mr. CL ARK . Be fore you start in on that , did you reduce the size ofthe beer g lass on account of tha t $1 tax during th e Spanish War ?

Mr. FINK . I do not manu facture beer, but I do know from myown observation—and perhaps all of th e gentlemen w ill bear me out

[ laughter]—that th e size of th e bottle in which beer is so ld h as beenconstantly grow ing sma ller and th e size of th e g lass has a lways beengrowin a little bit sma ller.

Mr. LA RK. I know tha t. I made them sel l 5 quarts of beer, socalled , when I was prosecuting attorney, for a ga llon, because therewas not a quart bott le in th e State of Mi ssouri , except an exceeding lyold one . There was no t a quart bottle in the State of M issouri , oranywhere else

,that held a quart, and there was not a. pint bottle that

held a p int, and the so - ca l led quart bo ttle lacked j ust about a good ,stiff drink of having a quart in it . They h ad a ri

ght to sel l a ga llon

for so much. I did not care wha t they charged or th e bee r. ButI was determined they should have 4 quarts in it . I doubt whetherthere is a quart bot tle in th e city of W

'

ashington that w il l ho ld a

quart. If there is, it is a very old one and one that h as been importedfrom Texas, ca lled the Hogg bottle ,

” because when Hogg was cir

cuit attorney down there he made them h ave a quart bottle and a pintbottle . What I was trying to ge t at was th is : I think they did cutdown th e size of the g lass during the Spanish War, and I do not

know whether they have ever increased it to its old size aga in or not .

The CHA IRM A N . It never was increased,was it ?

Mr. FIN K . The same l ittle g lasses are do ing business at the oldstand to - day .

Mr. CLARK . Y ou say they would not . increase the size of the g lass.

How do you know they would not ? Suppose one set of saloon keepers in Chi cago or St . Louis should adverti se they were se lling a larger

1 32 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

amount of beer in a lass than th e other fe l lows, do you not know

the other fel lows woufd have to come to the ir sized g lass ?Mr. FINK . Certa inly ; i f they want to g ive a little more .

Mr. CLA RK . Certainly ; i f they want to keep the trade :Mr. FIN K . But the price of th e g lass of beer w ill remain at 5 cents.

Those are the conditions. Y ou step into a barroom anywhere in the

U nited States and ask for a g lass o f beer, and it w il l b e handed to

you at 5 cents, whether there is a duty o f 30 or a duty of 15 cents, orwhether there is no duty at all.

Mr. CLARK. O f course, they w i ll have a 5—cent g lass of.

beer, justthe same as they have a 5 - cent piece of p ic, but now that p i e i s cut infi ve pieces. It used to b e cut in four pieces. Th at

o

i s the way they dow ith this beer business. Th e same princip le appl i es exactly.

Mr. FIN K . It is easy to see that in the case of free w h eat , for in

stance , the consumer would b e benefite d by a corresponding reduetion in the price of flour, but where , in th e name of common sense

, is

any benefit to accrue to th e masses from free barley and free barleyma lt, when it is abso lute ly certa in that th e chie f product thereo f,namely, beer, wil l continue to se ll at 5 cents a g lass ?Mr. CLA RK . I know

,and that is where you fall down about that.

A g lass is a g lass, in one view of it ; but a g lass of beer is not a glassof beer in another view of it. They used to have what they calleda

“schooner.

” I do not know whether they have them yet or not .

A schooner held about tw ice as much beer as one of these g lasses youget at the Shoreham,

or some of these o th er fi ne ho te ls.

Mr. FIN K . Let me assure the speaker that th e schooner was therebe fore the Spanish War

,was there during the Spanish “

l

ar,and is

ghere to - day , and is handed out for a nickel to whomsoevermay ca llor it .

Mr. CLARK . Is it the same size ?Mr. FIN K . Th e same size—th e schooner remains a schooner.

Th e CHA IRM A N . I f they use the same sized g lass, they w il l put 20p er cent more foam on th e beer.

Mr. F IN K. That is getting down pretty fi ne i f we have to countthe bubbles you et on the foam.

Mr. CLARK . ou put a piece of so ap in the faucet so you can getmore beer out of th e keg . I know h ow it goes. [Laughter.]Mr. F IN K . Not more than 2 p er cent of th e barley grown in this

country is used for human food in its unma lted state , all the rest ofi t,'

excep t that part which is used for feed and for seeding purposes,being converted into ma lt and this in turn into e ither fermented or

distilled liquor.

_

In other words, we respectfully submit to your honorable commi ttee

.

that, by putting barley and barley mal t upon the free list ,you W 111

.

not only fa il of reducing th e cost of l iving , but, on the contrary , W i l l infi i ct incalculable injury and loss upon th e barley- raisingfarmers of thi s country and w il l utterly and hope lessly ruin the greatmalting industry of the M iddle Western States.

Mr. HILL. Wh at was the average price of barley last year, thepri ce that you were paying ?Mr. FINK . That I amnot prepared to state o ffh and .

Mr. HILL. What is the present price ?Mr. F INK. The present price is about 93 cents for oed barleMr. HILL. A nd was it about th e same last year ?

g 3

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134 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. HA N SEN . I do not think there is anything tha t I want to add

on the subject except to state tha t it is the fact,

Th e CHA IRM A N . I do not see what bearing i t h as one way or the

other.

Mr. CA LD ERHEA D . I understood Mr. L ongworth to say that barleyma lt was not mentioned in th is treaty .

The CH A IRM A N . Ma lt ?Mr. CA LDERHEA D . Y es.

Th e CHA IRM A N . It is ; 4 5 cents a hundred pounds.

Mr. CA LDERHEA D . That amounts to about 15 cents a bushe l .Th e CH A IRM A N . Y es ; j ust the differentia l that there i s on barley

now .

Mr. CA LD ERHEA D . Th e speaker was a llowed to go through his entire speech w ithout re ferring to barley ma lt because Mr. Longworthsaid it was not mentioned in the treaty.

0

Th e CHA IRM A N . D id you desire to say anything about barley malt ?Mr. F IN K . I f any a llusion is made to th e duty nece ssary to protect

th e industry , I would like t o have it kept upon barley as we ll as uponbarley ma lt

,where they now stand .

Th e CH A IRM A N . Certa inly ; I supposed that w as your atti tude .

Mr. F IN K . I purposely omitted using th e words “ barley maltupon the sugg estion of one o f th e gentlemen , wh o sai d that that matter was no t touched in th e proposi ti on.

In order that you may know, gentlemen ,

h ow thoroughly the

ma ltsters of the M iddle West are a larmed over the situation, I b egleave to read t o you two te legrams which I have j ust rece ived :

M ILWA U KEE, WIS F e bruary 1h 1 91 1 .

BRU N O E. FINK , Wa sh ing ton , D . C’

Th e undersigned malt manufacturers of W iscons in most emp h a tically protestaga inst th e proposed reciprocity trea ty w i th C anada removing th e duty on

b arley . Th e result would mean not only an enormous loss t o t h e farmers of

th is country , b ut i t would pract ica lly ruin th e ma lting industry of th e North

west emp loy ing th ousand s of men and rep resent ing investments aggregat ingth irty to forty million dollars and a t p re sent manufacturing two - th irds of the

entire requirement s of th e U ni ted S ta tes. Th e consumers of b eer will not b eb enefited .

CHILTON MA LTING Co ., Ch i lton, W is.

THE KU RTH Co . , Columb us, W is.

KONRA D BROS . 8 : WERNER , Hartford , W is.

A . G. L A U BEN STEIN , Hartford , W is.

MA N ITowoc MA LTING Co . , M anitowoc , W is.

M . H . P ETTIT M A LTING Co . ,Kenosh a , W is .

P ORTz B ROS . M A LT GRA IN Co . , Hartford , W is.

R U B ICON M A LT GRA IN Co . , Rub icon , W i s .

L . R OSEN HEIM ER M A LT GRA IN Co . , Kewa skum, Wis.

WM . R A I—IR SON S Co M anitowoc , W is.

KON RA D SCHREIER Co . , Sh eb oygan. W is .

WEST BEND BREWING M A LTING Co . , W est Bend , W is.

W ISCON S IN MA LT GRA IN Co . ,A p p le ton, W is.

B A DGER STA TE M A LT Co W a terloo, W is.

LY TLE- STorrENnA C II Co ., J efferson. W i s.

BORCHERT MA LTING Co . . M ilwaukee , W is .

D A N IEL D . WESCHLER SON S , M ilwaukee , W is.

M ILWA U KEE M A LTIN C Co . , M i lwaukee , W is .

MILW A U KEE-WESTERN MA LT Co . , Mi lwaukee , W is.

FROEDERD T B ROS . MA LT GRA IN Co ., M ilwaukee , W is.

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 135

D AVENPORT, IOWA , February 3 , 1 91 1 .

BRU NO FINK , EsqCare New Wi llard Hotel, Washing ton, D . 0'

A re send ing Hon. A . F . D awson ni gh t letter, as followsIn the interest of western farmers growing b arley and western ma ltsters

using western b arley. we pro test aga inst removal of present duty on Canadian

barley or ma lt until such t ime as M idd le Western Sta tes ra ise a surplus en

ab ling us to export b arley . R emova l of duty will b e inimical to b est interestof b arley

-

grow ing Sta tes, th e only b eneficiaries b e ing th e b rewers and d is

tillers. Kind ly present th is to committee considering Canad ian reciproci tyagreement and ask coop era tion of a ll Iowa d elega tion.

D . ROTHSCHILD GRA IN Co .

The CHA IRM A N . I did not understand that statement or I shouldhave corrected it at the time ; I knew better than that myse l f .Mr. F IN K. I have endeavored in these few words

, gentlemen,to

present t o you th e case of th e malsters. There is present in the rooma gentleman wh o , better than I , can present to you the case of the

farmers. I thank you.

STATEMENT OF MR . J'

. R . MAU FF, OF EVANSTON, ILL , REPRE

SENTINGTHE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF EQU ITY .

Mr. MA U FF . Mr. Cha irman, the American Society of Equity sug

gests through its name th e chara cter, purpose , and princip les forwhich it was organized . It is composed of farmers

,of

whom are locate d in the State of W isconsin. Equity granted and

demanded in all re lations of l i fe briefly defines the position of the

society. A griculture is the foundation upon wh ich rest all industria l .

and commercia l structures. When crops fa i l all suffer. Those whoattack this interest wound themse lves.

Th e farmers of our society, understand that the proposed reci

procity agreement with the Dominion of Canada contemplates re

moving the tariff protection on our products, not only those to_

bera ised in the future, but the products of this crop , much of whi chis unmarketed , w ithout offering us any adequate compensation ,

de

sire to protest strong ly aga inst th e consummation of this agreementby our legislative bodies, and respect fully o ffer for your considerati onthe followin reasons :

Because t e agreement does not contemplate any reducti on in

the duty on the necessities. Th e industry is greatly burdened b y theenormous increase in the cost of labor, which alone h as been made

p ossible by a corresponding increase in th e va lues of our products.Since the Hon. James W ilson became Secretary of A gri culture h arvest- hand wages have increased 60 p er cent and ordinary day labor65 p er cent. A lso since that time th e prices of necessi ties purchasedby us have greatly increased .

I am go ing to quote the re lative prices, based on the average who lesale prices

,compared with th e base price , whi ch i s represented by 100,

taken from the records of th e Department of Commerce and. L abor.

These prices are on th e necessities the farmers are obl iged to purch aseat the store . Since the advent of Secreta Wilson in the Cab inet

clothing has increased from96 to 126 ; fue l an lighting , from95 to 130;metals and implements, from 8 6 to 128 ; lumber and b ui lding materi al ,from95 to 151 ; house furnish ing goods, from 92 to 109 ; mi scellaneous

,from 92 to 132 ; boo ts and shoes , from 96 to 128 ; crude petro

~leum, from 100 to 153 ; refined p etro leum,

from 99 to 127 co tton

1 36 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

p rints, fro-m 72 to 14 5 ; co t ton sheetings, from 8 6 to 1 34 ; co tton shirtings, from 8 3 to 126 ; co tton ticking , from 8 4 to 132 ; woo l blankets,from 107 t o 131 ; woo l carpe ts, from 100 to 1 17 woo l flannels, from97 to 124 ; woo l horse blankets, from 99 to 135 ; woo l dress goods,from 8 8 to 140; co tton fi annels

,from 8 1 to 128 ; cotton thread , from

9 8 t o 126 ; cotton yarns, from 90 to 131 ; co tton hosiery, from 8 3 to 93 ;cotton G inghams, from 8 3 to 124 ; co tton 2 - b -nehe l bags, from 95 to 14 3.

A not er reason is because Canada h as miles of land contiguous t o ours

,but in va lue only one - quarter to one - third that of the

good farm lands of the M ississippi Va l ley. That th e farmers tillingthat so i l would enj oy a cheaper cost of l iving because of the greatlyreduced cost of necessities through the free - trade re lations betweenth e D ominion of Canada and Eng land . Tha t in order to competew ith these conditions our lands

,farm labor

,and va lue of our prod

nots would necessarily have to decl ine .

A ga in , that an overproduction in our own country i s a lready inevidence

,according to all reports of th e trade , and as shown by the

fact that present p rices of our leading farm products, W i th one. ex

cep t ion, are th e lowest in years .

Mr. HILL . What exception is that ?Mr. MA U FF . Barley.

That a lthough th e whea t crop for 19 10 as reported by the D epartment of A griculture was only bushels, or lessthan the crop of 1909 , th e averag e farm va lue on D ecember 1

,as

compared w ith 1909,shows a decline of 10 cents p er b ushe l .

Mr. HILL. Wh at wa s th e farm va lue“

of barley in W isconsin lastyear, as shown by th e same reports ?Mr. MA U

‘

FF . I have th e reports here,b ut i t w i l l take up my va lu

able ha l f hour i f I re fer to them. I would b e very g lad to i f I hadtime a llowed . Th e average farm va lue of oats on January 1 , 19 10,was 10 cents p er bushel more than the price on January 1

,19 1 1 , and

th e price on January 1,1909

,w as 15 cents p er bushe l more than on

January 1 , 19 1 1 . Corn was 14 cents p er bushe l more on January 1,

19 10,than on January 1 , 19 1 1 . Barley was 2 cents p er bushe l less.

That is th e exception .

Mr. HILL . Y ou have not got the actua l farm va lue ; you simplyhave the difference ?Mr. MA U FF . I have th e difference , and the farm va lues are all in

these papers ; that , of course , I w ill not have time to re fer to . Thewheat crop of Canada usua lly averages about bushels ;oats, bushe ls ; b arley, bushe ls ; that thesecrops would largely increase because of the further development ofth e vast areas in northwest C anada t o our detriment and seriousfinanci a l injury ; that since January 27

, th e day this reciprocityagreement was g iven publicity , whe at. h as decl ined 3 cents , oats 2cents, and barley 5 cents p er b ushe l .On the mere announcement o f th is agreement, and th e deta ils

wheat advanced in W innipeg and decl ined lll every market in th eU ni ted States.

'

Tli a t much of th e C anadian crop is stil l t o fi nd a

market . The V i sible supply a lone in tha t country c onta ins a lmostbush e ls of wheat and of o a ts. C ongressman

Malby gave th e statistics of farm va lues,etc

,so I w il l omit that .

The Crop R eporter, published by authority of th e Secretary ofA gri culture , for January , 1 9 11 , show s th e fo l low ing farm va lues per

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1 3 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

amounted to bushe ls aga inst bushe ls in 1909.

The area in 19 10 exceeded th e area of 1909 by acres,but the

crop fe ll off bushels . U sing th e figures of the A gri culturalDepartment re la tive to th e two years’ crops for computati on, wefi nd that th e returns in 19 10 were about p er a cre , figured at

an average . The crop of 19 10,on D ecember 1 , 19 10, was va lued at

th e crop of 1909 , on D ecember 1 , 1909 , was va lued at

Th e men,clamorin for a reduction of th e duty on

barley,po int out tha t th e price 0 barley is exorbitant, but a g lance

at th e figures j ust quoted w il l convince any man that the farmers ofth e U nited States, notw ithstanding t h e fact that they wa lked over

acres more land , spending the ir efforts and capita l whiledo ing so , rece ived j ust less than in 1909 , when less workwas performed

,less barley put into the ground , and less taxes were

pa id on land devote d t o the culture of barley.

I w il l g o on and g ive tha t same comparison on th e other cereals.

A s to wheat , the farmers in 19 10 so ld acres more,but pro

duced in va lue less revenue . In corn they sewedacres more , and produced b ushe ls more , produc

ing , however, less revenue . In oats they sewedacres more , produced bushe ls more

,but produced in

revenue less.

To show th e overproduction existing at th e present time,with the

prices th e lowest in four years, there are bushe ls of wheatin th e visible supply in th e U nit ed States ; bushels of corn,

bushels of oats,and bushe ls of barley .

"

We justtake

,in this overproduction ,

the wheat , corn ,and oa ts. In addition

to that there are bushe ls of whea t in Canada and 7

bushels of oats . Th e invisible supply in this country ,which we are

unable to comput e , is enormous . Never be fore in th e history of the

gra in trade h as so much gra in been piled up in th e farmers’

granariesand the country elevators, to say noth inor about th e private elevatorsin th e termina l markets , figures on wh ic w e are unable to obtain.

Mr. MA U FF . Since 1 8 97 the farmers have increased th e acreage ofcorn from to and the crop frombushe ls t o and the Wheat from acres to

acres , and the yield from bushels tobushels ; and o ats from acres t o acres, and they ield from to bushels.

In regard t o barley, that is a pet hob by w ith th e brewer. TheA gricultura l D epartment appropri ated money for years and had a

representative of th e brewers in th e A gricultura l D epartment forone purpose , to increase

,enlarge , and improve the barley crop . The

work started in the year 1900, and if I h ad the opp ortunit

I wouldquo te you letters from th e brewers acknow ledg ing the gum. Thefarmers are grow ing barley for one purpose only . and that is for theb rewmg of beer. They have increased their cr0p three times sinceth e D epartment of A griculture encouraged the work for th e benefi tof the brewers, and appropri ated money for tha t purpose .

It wasnot done for the propagation or improvement of any other cerealgrain by the farmer. A t that time the barley crop was in th e neighb orhood of bushe ls ; t o - day it is between and

bushels .

R-ECIPROCITY W ITH CA N A D A . 139

I would like to show in what respect the farmers responded tothis appea l of the brewers. In M innesota at tha t time , 1900, therewere acres devoted to barley, to - day M innesota devotes

acres, h as increased a lmost acres. W isconsin h asincreased from acres to acres

, South D akota'

fromacres to acres

,North Dakota from acres

to acres , and Iowa from to acres. Iowa isretrograding in th e cultivation of b arley, because the so il h as ex

hausted its nitrogen. That is what th e barley growers have donefor the brewers, at the so licitation of the brewers

,through th e D e

partment of A griculture , and through th e experimenta l stations, and

now they ask for the remova l of th e duty on barley,when ba

'

rley is

grown but for one purpose , and that is for the brew ing of beer. ThatIS the po int we are particularly strong on

,because of the encourage

ment and th e inducement to increase the crop,and in O ctober, in

the city of Chicago , they have an internationa l barley show,and offer

prizes,cups, and money to th e farmers t o further increase the ir b ar

ley crops . The brewers now ask for th e remova l of th e duty,which

will compe l ourM ississippi Va l ley farmer, w ith his land worth $100an acre , w ith all the necessities carrying a high protective tariff, tocompete w ith Canada .

Mr. HILL . D oes not th e Ca l i fornia man have to compete w ithCanada ?Mr. MA U FF . Th e Ca l ifornia man ra ises a b ay

- brew ing b arley.

Th e Bass A le house of Eng land h as a representative in Ca li forniaall the time to purchase that . It is suitable for th e brew ing of ale

and it is not sui table for th e brew ing of lag er beer. It conta ins a

high percentage of starch and a. low percentage of nitrogen . It h asnot the diastasic qua lity that the brewers in our community use. as a

substitute for barley ma lt. The Bass people use it because they man

ufacture a barley beverage . That is th e thing in a nutshell,and

bushels of that barley have been exported from the P a cificcoast

,two and a ha l f times as much at this particular price as a year

ago, and if th e brewers would stop using substitutes for barley theywould fi nd they could use P acific coast b arley very nicely. That isthe explanation of tha t . I have th e technica l authorities, i f I h adthe opportunity to present them.

The va lue of farm lands depend on the yield in money p er acre ,and in the M ississippi Va lley averages three to four times th e valuein that section of C anada tha t h as extensive areas and is rapidly increasin in population and production. In addition to tha t , becauseof the ree - trade re lations between Canada and Eng land , these farmers can obta in th e necessities of l i fe a t greatly reduced prices as compared w ith our farmers of th e M ississippi Va lley. Th e tota l areaof Canada lands is square miles as compared w ithsquare miles in th e U nited States.

Mr. HILL . Y ou do not think tha t is a fa ir illustration as a comparison of the farming lands ?Mr. MA U FF . Those figures are taken from th e statistics. Whether

they are farming lands, mounta inous lands, or stock lands the compari son is there .

Mr.MCCA LL . There is a great dea l of uninhabitab le coa l land . The

habi table rim of Canada , be ing so far north,is very narrow .

Mr. MA U EF . It stops,I should think

, at A lberta ; at th e extremewestern portion of it .

"

1 4 0 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. MCCA LL . I mean go ing north and south . Th e northern parto f Canada is uninhabitable , practica lly, I think , i s i t no t ?Mr. MA U FF . A t the present time .

Mr. MCCA LL . I mean on account of th e climate .

Mr. MA U FF . O f course , my time is limited to 30minutes.

Mr.HILL

. Y ou can have all th e time you want , If you W i ll talkon the subject.Mr. MA U FF . I would no t w ant to get into an argument as to the

condition of th e climate in northern C anada . I am not h ere for that

p urpose . I am try ing to show you gentlemen the injusti ce to theAmerican farmer of reducing th e protection h e h as, and not reduc

ing and making equitable th e necessities of l i fe h e has to purchaseat th e country store .

Mr. HILL . Y ou have re ferred to a large number of o ther articlesin which there h as been a enormous advance during the past fewyears. A re you not aware that there h as been a much greater ad

vance in farm products, in percentages ?Mr. MA U FF . I have tried to g ive the sta tistics for the past 10

years,the average p er acre for each cerea l on th e farm,

the cost ofproduction

,and everything ; I am no t concea l ing anything . We

w ill get into th e Canada part of it aga in ,and I can only get into

C anada w ith statistics,because I have no t been up there p ersonall

'

Th e gentleman asked why is Canada barley ra ised in western Canadano t as suitable for ma lt purposes as is D akota barley ? The mostof th e Canada barley is fed . I w il l read a letter from a malster inW innipeg , wh o le ft Chicago to go to W innipeg :It w ill b e yea rs b efore th ey get t h e a lka li out of th e soil in th is country.

Th en w e may exp ect b e tter b arley . I h ave started a camp a ign a lready to

educa te th e fa rmer to a llow h is b arley to g et thorough ly rip e b efore cuttingi t ; a lso to stack it and ch ange t h e seed .

A nd h e asked me to engage them bushe ls of barley similarto what is ra ised in the M ississippi Va lley to b e taken to Canada .

Mr. HILL . Then,Why do you fear Canadian barley , i f that is true ?

Mr. MA U FF . Because of the fact tha t the farmers h ave trebled theircrop .

Mr. HILL. I f the Canadian barley wi ll no t answ er the purpose , whydo you fear it ?Mr. MA U FF . The Canadi an barley answers the purpose in easte rn

C anada . Ha l f of th e barley of Canada is ra ised in the province of

O ntario . There th ey have a lways ra ised a superior article ; that is,the barley that went over and built up th e brew ing and ma ltingbusiness . It wa s no t Saskatchew an and A lberta : they were not

heard of. It is because this barley that is ra ised by the farmers tothe extent of bushe ls is so ld to the malsters in the West ,ex ect ing th a t they w ill fi nd an outle t for it in th e East ; that theyw i 1 b e so ld out of the ir eastern markets because of the b arley fromO ntario , and thus curta il the consumption of barley for brewingp u ose s, leavi ng th e surplus. There is a surplus a t the present time .

r. I‘IILL:R igh t there , and right on th at po int , I would like to ask

you a questi on . Suppo se th e entire crop in C anada w as who lly con

sumed in C anada you would no t obj ect to its be ing free because therev

ylouldb e no ne to come , i f th e entire crop of C anada ivas consumed

t ere

Mr. MA U FF

AExaCtly so .

fMr. HILL. 8 a ma tter 0 fact,there are onl 2 0

export ed to the who le world from Canada out

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14 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

thing grows there . A nd our farmers have gone into Alberta and

Saskatchewan. The popula tion of Iowa h as decreased in 10 years,a s is shown by the census , and they have gone to sunny A lberta and

S askatchewan, w ith all the disadvantages of th e tari ff against them.

R emove them,and there w i ll b e an exodus of farmers, who W i l l go

there .

Mr. MCCA LL. Y ou say w ith all th e disadvantages of thi s tariffagainst them.

” Is not the p rice of wheat for a third of the year

greater than the Chicago pri ce of wheat ?Mr. MA U FF . A bso lute ly no t .Mr. MCCA LL. A nd is there no t a parity in the pri ce of wheat inWinnipeg and Chicago and th e A rgentine , having re ference to thefre ight ra te to L iverpoo l ?Mr. MA U FF . I am unable to answer tha t all in one breath.

Mr. MCCA LL . That is j ust one question. Is there not a parity inth e price of wheat, and is not the t ari fi at present inoperative in thatres ect ?

fi r. MA U FF . Necessarily, there must b e .

Mr. HILL. D id you not g ive th e farm pri ce of wheat a few moments ago ?Mr. MA U FF . I bel ieve it was 8 8 cents th e l st of De cember and 99

cents a year a 0, which is a decrease of 1 1 cents a bushe l.Mr. HILL. V as that farm price , or the market price ?Mr. MA U FF . That is th e farm price. Since that time there

has been a further decline . I am taking the figures availablefrom the statistics of the D epartment of A gricul ture in regard

to that question. Winnipeg whea t is 7 cents less to - day thanDuluth wheat. Those are the two nearest markets . It is 7 cents infavor of the Winnipegmarket ; and, as I say , from the morning ofthe 27 th the day when this agreement was made ub lic, Winnipegwheat advanced

,while every market in the U nite d tates went down.

In the Province of A lberta the wheat cr0p increased fromb ushels to in that period of time , and they have not comweneed to touch the so i l in e ither Saska tchewan or Alberta. Theyhave only in all Canada against our Canada.oats during the same period of time showed the following increases :In A lberta from to and in Mamtob a from

to Barley during that time increased from

39,00(

é,000 to those increases being largely in northwest

ana a .

Mr. HILL. When was that ?Mr. MA U

'

FF . In thatperiod of time .

Mr. HILL .

Mr. MA U FF . From t o

Mr. HILL. The Canadi an Year Book g ives the production as only4 5 b ushels in all Canada .

Mr. MA U FF . I am re ferring t o all Canada ,

Mr. HILL . Y ou sayMr. MA U FF . Those are the statistics th a t I have . Wh at is the crop

date—the last cr0p ?Mr. HILL . Thi s year, j us t p ublished by the Canadian

Government .Mr. MA U FF. I W i ll accep t the correction. A s I say , I took the

fi gures from these papers, and I have not th e time to go into it,

RECIPROOI’

I‘Y W ITH CA N A D A . 14 3

Mr. CA LD ERHEAD . Where did you get your figure s ?Mr. MA U FF . From the R ed Book

,which is the book of sta t istics,

or the Da ily News A lmanac , or the figures of the Department of

Agriculture .

Mr. HILL. Th e figures are bushe ls, of which they ex

ported Th e va lue on th e farm was cents p er bushe l .Mr. MA U FF . I think my figu res are pretty nearly correct on all I

quote ; I am not trying to exaggerate .

Mr. HILL . O f course ; I understand you are not .

Mr. MA U FF . Th e present price of cerea ls, and th e overproductionvisible all over th e U nited States, w i ll quite satisfy anybody that thefarmers are getting the short end of the stick .

Remove the tariff and a llow th e cerea ls from these vast areas to

compete with the products of our farm lands,and you would produce

a situation that would amount a lmost to a crisis so far as farmmortgages are concerned—and there are some—and it is well worthyour serious consideration. A ll sta tistics would seem to indicate thatthe farmers are abso lutely the last ones in a position to stand , a loneand una ided , th e burden of th e reduced cost of living .

Congressman Ma lby did not re fer to th e co ld - storage warehousesthat are now co llapsing and go ing under because they can not fi nd a

market for the ir stuff, and are sending it to Europe—their butterand their eggs.

Mr. HILL . Y ou represent a very large and important society, andI want to submit this proposition to you, on th e very question you are

sp eaking of, as to eggs. Canada export ed dozens to the

who le world , whi ch amounts to eggs. That would give 1egg to 3 men once a year in the city of New York. D o you honestlybeli eve that would a ffect the price of eggs in th e U nited States, 1egg to 3 men in the city of New York a lone ?Mr. MA U FF . I am not arguing on th e egg question at all.

Mr. HIL L . But you j ust spoke of it.MA U FF . That w as a po int that Congressman Ma lby over

looked . He was bring ing ih the middleman’s promise , and h e over

looked the other.

Mr. HILL. Y ou have to take this question as a who le , one who leproposition. Y ou cited eggs and Mr. Malby cited eggs, and th e

entire importation of eggs from Canada was only dozen.

Mr. MA U FF . I rather think there would b e an opportuni ty t o in

crease th e production of eggs in Canada i f there was no duty.

Mr. HIL L . Y ou think the hens would respond to th e tari ff ?Mr. MA U

‘

FF . I suppose th e owners of th e hens would respond tothe tariff.Mr. HILL. Y ou cited the egg question. The enti re importati on

from Canada would only have g i ven one egg to 1 3 people once a yearin the city of New York alone .

0

Mr. CALDERHEA D . Th e question is, what would the enti re production b e ?Mr. HILL . Y ou can not take th e entire production ; you have to

take the entire exportation.

0

Mr. CA LD ERHEA D . Oh , no ; th e exportation is limi ted by our tari ff.

Mr. HILL . We can not eat th e eggs they consume in Canada .

Mr. CA LDERHEA D . But th e imports of eggs from Canada are limited by our tariff.

1 4 4 REC IP RO C ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. R A N D ELL . They might ra ise more eggs in C anada to respondto this market .

Mr.HILL

. D o you cla im there i s any danger to th e A meri can fare

mer, so far as eggs and those products are concerned , from makingthem free from Canada ?Mr. MA U FF .

It would b e very presumptuous for me t o ta lk aboute o

'

s.glI/Ir.HILL

.I thought you represented th e Soci ety of Equ i ty on the

Who le l ine of farm products.

0

Mr. MA U FF .I am representi ng them here ent i rely and a lone on

th e question of cereals.

Mr.HILL

.Very we ll , then ; let us take the largest one .

Mr. M A r rr .I came here yesterday morning , and I am here w ithout

any p reparation except such as I got together on th e tra in .

.

I ment ioned that on th e announcement o f th i s agreement the pri ces in Winnip eg h ad advanced , and prices h ad dropped all over the U nitedStates . L e t me ca ll your attention to figures relati ng to savmgsbank depo sits in 10 eastern States, amounting to

whereas in th e 10 largest, you might say.

most important , grain

grow ing . agricultura l States in th e M 1SSlSSlp p 1 V alley . th e savingsbank deposits w ill amount to no t overMr. RA N D ELL . Wh at 10 States do you mean ?Mr. M A t rr . I would b e very g lad i f you would a l low me to refer

to th e orig ina l manuscript , if I can fi nd it here . Here are part of thefigures , and I have t aken these in an e ffort to get a fa ir comparison.

I have t aken th e savings - bank deposits on June 30,1909 , in Con

nect icut , M assa chusetts,New Hampshire

,New Jersey , f ew York,

P ennsylvania , Rhode Island,Vermont , Ma ine

,and Maryland

Then I take Illinois,Indiana

,Iowa

,Kansas, Mi chi

g an ,M inneso ta , O hio , South D akota

,W isconsin

,and Neb raka

,less

thanMr. HILL . That is no t worth a cent as statistics , as those deposits

have been only 10 y ears accumula ting , while th e others. perhaps, havebeen accumula t ing for 50.

Mr. MA U FI‘

. It is a barometer as to the prosperity of the sections.

Mr. HILL . Y ou ought to take th e statistics of the S tat es of the

same ag e .

Mr. M A U FF . Y ou can do that . I sav th e farmer is not the Sharero f the luxuries of th e present day .

Mr. RA N D ELL . Is it no t a fact that under the pro tective sy stem thath as been established so long th e eastern Sta tes h ave been g e tting theadvantag e o f th e w estern State s , and that farmer in the “

'

est reallyh as no t g o t ten any thing out o f the p ro tect ive tari if

'?

Mr. MA U FF . I do no t know whe th er o r no t. vou were here when Icited the case of th e barley industry . The

‘

b arlev industry is a

specia l industry . “’e can use that a s a s p e c ia l illustra t ion ,

because itis ra ised for th e brewers, for the production of beer.

Mr. R A N D ELL. In th e ca se of b arlev vo u have an abso lutely proh ib it ive tari fi .

Mr. M A U FF . A n abso lutely prohibitive. t ariff.

Mr. RA N DELL . Y ou do no t mean to say everything in this countryought to b e run on a prohibitive tarifi

' basis ?Mr. M A U FF . I am no t sanct i oning anything o f that kind .

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1 4 6 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH C A N A D A .

Mr. RA N D ELL .I should think not . L et h im fix up th e statement as

h e w ishes.

Mr. M A U FF . My statement i s a reproducti on of th e stati sti cs of

wha t Congressman Ma lby g ave on various things.

Mr.HILL . Y ou can g ive to th e reporter your ent i re paper.

Mr. MA l’

FI"

. Here is a te legram I have ] IlSt rece i ved fromW abasha,

M inn .

“'

A BA S H A , F t bmmry 4 ,J O H N R . M A U FF ,

Care Way s and l lco ns Commi t tee . W ash ing ton. D .1

Enth usia st ic ma s s mee t ingr fa rme rs a t o - d a y . l’re e lmrley under reci

p ro c ity is of no poss ib le good b ut t o b rewers only , and ult ima te ly no t t o them.

It w ill ruin b arley industry in N orthwest . w it h out re c iproca l return to the

ind us try or consumer. W e pro test vigorously .

J os . W ELP, Ch airman.

They make a po int of tha t , because barley is ra i s ed. for brewingpurpo s es

,and we have increased and trebled the crop a t the so licita

t ion of the brew ers , acting through th e D epartment of A g ri culture,

w ith an appropria tion from th e D ep artment of A gr iculture ; and thebrew ers are not using b arley ma lt as they used t o in th e manufactureof beer

,b ut they are using over 50 p er cent of substitutes for barley

ma lt and disgu isino it as barley ma lt . The re is to come up soon

be fore th e Bo ard of:3Food and D rug Inspection th e question of what

is beer, and we have been try ing for three years to get a decisionon tha t sub j ect . Th e brewers have no t been treating the farmersright, and it is an outrag e that an industry th at h as be en fos tered forone particular purpose should b e brought into competition w ith thebarley of Canada . They can ra ise a tremendous crop of barley there

,

a fter they have taken the seed over.

Th a t te legram says it w il l ruin the barley industry . Then wherew i ll th e brewers b e ? They w ill have to depend on Canada , and

eventua lly they w il l ask you to let Russia come in w ith her b arley , and she h as bush els. That is all the farmers ask.

Th e Society of Equity stands for equity for what they sell and equityfor what they b uy , and it is an infant organizat ion ,

w ith onlymembers . It is hard to Cope w ith th e o lder organizations that areopposed to this thing—and w e have an idea where the o lder organ

izat ions are,where they live

,and where they th rive . A nd what will

b ecome of th e farmers when the ir lands have dep reciated because of

th e dep reciation in the earning power p er acre ? A nd who has themortg ag es ? The l i fe insurance companies

,the trust companies, es

tat es ? It is a serious question .

Mr. CA L D ERI—IEA D . Y ou spe ak about th e quantity of whea t producedin Saska tchewan and that M ani toba country up

‘

there ; where is thatWh eat ma rke ted ?

Mr. MA N ?“ I bel ieve that goes larg e ly to “’

i i inip eg ; probablysome of i t mi ght go to th e P ac ific co ast .

Mr. C A LD ER lH-IA D . Th e whe a t th a t g o es to lVinnip eg goes where ?Mr. M A urr . That eventually finds an outlet w ith the mills of

Canada and the fore ign countries. Th e mil ls o f Canada, of course,

have quite a lucrative business, too . Th e land th a t w i l l not growg o od barley grows th e most excellent wh eat .Mr. CA L D ERIIEA D . The reason I am asking is, for a long t ime there

h as been a demand on th e part of th e flouring mi lls, P il lsbury and

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 1 4 7

others in M innesota , for a lower ta riff on Wheat , in order thatthey mig t get the Canadian wheat.Mr. MA U FF . I understand the sentiment .

Mr. CA LDERI—IEA D . The hard wheat . Th ere is a constant proteston the

Opart of ourmillers aga inst lowering the tariff, because , i f the

Canadi an wheat comes in, and tha t flour pushes down into our coun

try, it drives our people to hunt a market in some other country fortheir flour.

Mr. HILL. I w ill cal l your attention to th e fact that there wereexported from Canada to th e U nited States last year bushelsof wheat , and exported from th e U nited States to Canadabushels, or about 15 or 20 times as much .

Mr. CA LD ERI—IBA D . I wil l admit all tha t ; b ut sometimes that sort ofan argument makes me think of th e mathematician’

s w i fe . She wassick and could not cook the breakfast

,so sh e to ld h er husband to cook

the eggs three minutes. “Then th e lady came to eat th e eggs she foundthem so lid. Wh en she asked h im h ow long he bo iled the eggs, hesaid Tw elve minutes. Sh e sa id I to ld you to boi l them threeminutes.

” He sa id Y es , but there were four eggs , so I bo iled themtwelve minutes.

”

[Laughter.]MA U FF . I would l ike to answ er tha t question

,and expla in one

of the features of that desire of th e M inneapo lis and Duluth mi llersto get that wheat from northwestern Canada . It is be cause of itsvery superior qua l ity. It a llow s th e use of inferior grades to makethe blend that wi ll come up to standard . lVith a little of that verysuperior whe at it is possible to use in ferior wheat . That is the rea lreason ; just th e same reason that th e brewers want this barley thatis raised in M innesota , and they have protested to the D epartment ofA griculture aga inst the introduction of any other variety, Ca lifornia especial ly mentioned . It is because of that diastasic barley,because the surplus , excessive d iasta s e

“

in this barley has the power ofconverting the starch in th e low gra in ,

and the g lucose. In Ca lifornia tha t barley has a minimum amount of diastase , and it has a

maximum amount of starch , and they get their starch from the b arley. Our brewers get the ir starch from th e Corn Products Co .

,

and only use barley for converting tha t into a lcoho l . That is thereason the Bass man is buying that and shipping it to Eng land forale , because they use no substitutes for barley .

The gentleman asked about Kansas and M issouri barley.

.

WhenA dolphus Busch was first establishing h is brewery, Missouri ra i sedthe best barley. But when the nitrogen leaves the 8 011 you can not

raise barley. In Kansas and Nebraska they have introduced th e b aybrewing seed from the P acific coast, and the seed and th e 5011 havenot an affinity

,and what have you ra ised ? A bastard barley, that

is used for one purpose only , and that is for animal feed .

Mr. RA N DELL . Talking about th e so il deprec1ating , what methodhave they or what method can th ev use for keeping up a 5011 wherethey ra ised this best barley ?Mr. MA U FF . Y ou w i l l fi nd that th e line. is moving northward all

the time . A s I said , th e best barley was grown in Missourn Itmoved into Iowa . Iowa h as lost it , largely, and it h as moved intoMinnesota . It has been g etting farther and farther north all th e

time. Of course, th e farmers have increased the ir crops by takingout to a large extent th e acreage of Wheat.

1 4 8 REC IPRO C ITY W ITH C A N A D A .

Mr. RA N D ELL . How ab out th e loss in nitrogen ?

Mr. MA U FF . Th e loss in nitrog en i s th e thi ng that puts the sod in

condition for other cerea ls and no t for barley . Y ou put manure , forinstance , on the so il and p ut th e nitrogen into that so i l ,

.

and there i s

t oo much nitrogen and your barley becomes ni trogen in i ts character.

But th e fact rema ins that at the brewers’so l i ci tati on th e

.

D epartment of A griculture appropriated money and th e farmers increasedthe ir crop of barley, and th e records o f th e Department of A gri culture w i ll show it, and i f th e gentlemen would a llow

.

me I would readfrom th e Brewers’ Journa l th e history o f that ini qui ty, where theDepartment o f A griculture appropriated money and h ad a represent

a tive in there and encouraged and bamboozled th e farmer to increaseh is b arley cr0p three times over, and now they are only usmg one - thirdof it and converting raw sub stances to go i nto beer. The brewer hasto have th e diastase . That is the difference betw een th e M i ssi ssippiVa lley barley and th e P acific coast barley. We could not produceth e P acific coast barley there i f we w anted to , because the brewershave protested to th e Department of A gr iculture . That industry hasbeen discourag ed by th e D ep artment of A g ri culture . I could produce you gent lemen in th e D epartment of A gri culture wh o wouldcorroborate everything I say in this respe ct. That is why I layspecia l emphasis on this barley industry , and now that we have it inthis conditi on and w ith th e exposition that is to come off in O ctoberth e farmers to b e g iven go ld cups and money for further increasingth e crop , a long comes th i s demand from Saskatchewan and A lberta .

It is on ly a matter of time when they w i ll get the a lka li out of theso il , etc .

, as that letter says.

Mr. HILL. But a t present you do not fear tha t competition ?Mr. MA U FF . Not to - day .

Mr. HILL. The competition you fear is th e eastern province ?Mr. MA U FF . Ontario h as the so i l to ra ise barley that w ill compete

with our barley anywhere . But it is only a question of a short t imewhen Saska tchewan and A lberta , that are now ra ising barley, will

get the ir so il in condition where they can increase their crop of barleyand produce a g ood crop of barley.

Mr. RA N D ELL . Why has no t th e land in Canada depreciated ?Mr. MA U FF . The barley land ?Mr. RA N D ELL. Y es.

Mr. M A U FF . In Ontario,as I th ink I mentioned , when this tariff

was put on, th e ra ising of barley shi fted . They went to ra ising peasand things of tha t kind very large ly . P ea s and things of that kind areleguminous ; they return something to th e so i l that restores th e soil.Mr. HILL. Y ou say tha t you appear here not only on th e question

of barley, but as to ce rea ls ?Mr. M A U FF . Not on the question of barley at all ; it is cerea ls in

genera l .Mr. HILL . D oes your soci ety fear i n any

.

respe ct whatever the competition of Canada on a free basis, or a reci pro ca l basis

, so far as cornis concerned ?Mr. MA U FF . A bso lutely not . I b el ieve a t the present time corn

can be shipped into‘

Canada w ithout any duty . I do not be lieve thereis any duty on i t now .

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1 50 RECIP ROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

The fo llowing telegrams were submitted by Mr. Maufi'

[ Te legram ]

IND IA N A POL IS , IND . , F e b ruary 3 , 1 9 11 .

J . R . MA U FF ,

N ew l l H o tel, Wash ing ton , D . C

K ind ly answer p i o test in b eh a lf Of our soc iety aga inst p ro po sed l eC iprocity

w i th Canada , and keep me informed on si tua tion . Sena tor McCumb er h as

copy resolutions of protest p a ssed b y American Soc ie ty Of Equi ty a t i ts na~t ional convent ion.

THEO . G. NEL SON ,

P resi den t Gra in Growers.

[ Telegram ]

J . R . MA U FF ,

Ho tel W i llard,

D . C . :

R epresent th e organi zed farmers O f esp ecia lly th e b arley growers,b efore a ll h earing s and strongly p ro te st ag a inst p ro p o sed (

‘

a i i a d ian rec iprocityagreement , wh ich would reduce th e imp ort duty O i i b a rley and o th er farmproducts and work grea t h a rd sh ip and ruin among our peop le .

W i s coN s i N STA TE i'

N ION . A M ERIC A N So c i ETv OF Eo i'

iTY ,

M . WES LU BBS ,S ccrr luru.

STA TEMENT FILED BY THE MA LT MANU FA CTU RERS’

A SSO

CIA TION OF BU FFALO , N . Y .

NEW YO RK,F eb / wary o,

COMMITTEE ON W AYS A ND \ 1EA NS,HO U SE O F REPRESENTA TIvEs

GENTLEMEN : Th e agreement recently nego tiated b e tween Canadaand the U nited States

,

b

and now b efO i e Congre s-

s for ratification amongo the r thin s provide s fo i the 11 9 0 admission of barley into e ither coun

try from t e o ther. The Ma lt Manufac ture rs A s so ciation of Buffalosubmit for y our consideration the fo llow ing statement

,b y reason of

the statements made be fo re your honorable committee b y representat ives o f W e s t e rn ma l ts te rs . This sta tement is submitted , no t fo r thepurpo se of creating an argument , b u t to refute ass e rtio ns that are misleading and unjust .The Mal t Manufactur '

e i s’

A sssoc iat ion of Buffalo has for manyyears past advo ca ted free i ti ade re lations w ith Canada , includin a

f i ce interchang e o f natura l p i oduct s , and a l e \ ision Of the scli edu es

relating to manufactured p rodut ts.b e lieving that such an a i i ange

meri t would b e highly benefi cia l fo r b o th count i ies thei i deve lopme nt and i xpansi on . l t is true th at b y such a n arrang ement. themalting industry i n the Eas t would i e i c i \ c bene fi ts : we do no t b elieveo r a e ri c with th e west e i n i i ialt s ter, li O \\ e 1 e , tha t the f i ce admiss iono f ba i ley w ill se i io us ly 1n |u i e ni i ich l i‘ss d e s t ro y the ma l t ing lll tlllst lyo f the Middle “Te r it , nor se i io us l) : i ilu t t he a e ri t i i ltu i a l s ectionswh ich are no w the le t l t llIlU lia rte. \ -

p i od i i i t ivO S t : i t e s

When l llt f i e mi e i ni i nt no w b e low vo u w : i s llO t i o t i lled the e as te i n

ma lts te l s li t i t i lll) ’

w i th O the rs to mo use

ab

pulilicl

s ent iment, infavo i o l its 1 : t t itie a t io n ; it was no t : i c tu:

,i te d howeve i , b y the mo tive

tha t this i i id i i s t i v wo uld he a i e i ip ie nt o f fau a a h le Co nditions to

s t a .a re its ra w i i ia te i i: ,i l b ut upon the b i o i tle r o ro nnd tha t its i a t iticatio n would p i omo tc o u i mutual t i :lt lt‘ o p e n up a marke t fo i p i oducts

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 1 51

now deni ed , and firmly esta b lish o ur share to the enormo us businessthat 18 to b e obta i ned by the opening up o f Canada’

s va st areas y et

undeve loped and ri ch in na tura l resources .

A S TO THE EFFECT O F THE PRO PO SED A GREEMENT U PON WESTERN

MA LTING IND I'

STRY .

The provisions O f the ag reement , re lating to the free inte rchang e ofnatura l produc ts has b een a t tacked by the western malsters , and theyclaim that i t will des troy the ir industry . The ir fear of direful effec tsto the ir industry and to the farmer in e ither se ction is more imag inarythan real : they are actuated b y a se lfish mo tive only to restrict compet ition and to serio usly cripple the ma lting industry in the East bycontinuing to contro l t he supply o f ma lting b arley , which they are

able to do by rea s o n o f the present prohib it ive tax o f 30cents a bushe l .Since. 1 8 00 the ma l ting industry in the East ha s constantly declined .

U nder the treaty o f b a rley wa s admi t ted free ,and after i ts abro

ga ti o n a duty O f 15 cen ts p er b ushe l was ll O Sed . This rate co ntinueduntil 1 8 8 3 , when the duty was reduced to 10 cents p er bushel , and ithas continued until 1 8 90, when the duty was increased to 30 cents p erbushel . This has b een the taritf upon barley ever since , except duringthe brie f operation of the W ils o n bill

,under which a tax was imposed

of 30 p er cent ad va lorem.

The malting industry in New York,in 1 8 8 0

,comprised 51 p er cent

of the who le,and manufactured 54 p er cent o f the entire malt p ro

duced . U nder the favo rable t ax o f 10 cents per b ushel,the num

b e r of malt houses increased to 8 2 p er cent in 1 8 90, and manufacturing 4 2 p er cent Of the malt . Since 1 8 90 the ma lt industry has declineduntil at present there is only about 25 p er cent of the plants and

manufacturing 20 p er cent of the ma lt . A s the ma lting industry declined, so did the p roduction o f barley in the ea stern Stat es , the agricultural sec t io ns be ing deprived O t their market .

While the easte rn malting industry has severe ly declined as ab oveindica ted

,the consump tion o f ma l t in the States tributary to it s till

exceeds 50 p er cent o f the to tal consumed .

The malt manufa cture rs who have cont inued to Operate the ir plantshave done so unde rmost adve rse co nditions by reason o f the source O fthe ir supply o f raw materia l b e coming mo re distant , and were therefore compe lled to p ay excessive costs O f t ranspo rtation fo r the ir raw

materia l and the shipment Of the ir manufactured products a t lo calrates t o easte rn co nsumers in compe ti tion with the western maltste rs ,having the ir source o f raw materia l a t the ir do o r and shipping the irmanufac tured product on through rates to destination .

The free admission O f b arley has no t b een advo cated to d estroy thema lt ing industry o f the West , no r to injure the ag ricultura l sectionsOf the We s t and No rthwest . O n the co ntrary , i t has submitted thatthe ma lting indus t ry o f the East is entitled to e qua l recognition and

pro tect io n and fa cilities to secure i ts b arley for ma lting purpo ses fromterritories tributary to i ts plants a s the weste rn,

and tha t the farme rin the Eastern S ta te s should b e o ffered as ready and pro fi table a marke tfo r h is barley a s the weste rn ; and it is further submitted that the ratification Of the propo sed ag reement will tend to preve nt and larg e lye liminate the dominatio n o f western e levating and o ther interests toarbitrarily fix and ma inta in fictitious price-s of fo od s tuffs .

1 52 REC i rnm'

rry W ITH C A N A D A .

A S TO THE EFFECT OF THE P RO PO SED A GREEMENT U PON PR ICES OF

GRA IN .

Weste rn ma ltsters and representatives o f agricultura l secti on'

s alsourge that t he advo cation o f the propo sed agreement would seriouslytfi

'

ec t prices , particularly o f barley ; that gra ins were cheaper in Canada than in the U nited States b ecause o f cheaper lands and labor.

On Friday last (Fe b . 3 ) May wheat wa s quo ted on the Chlca 9 Boardof Trade at 9 613 cents . and J uly ce nt s ; while on the ’

1nnipegBoard of Trade May wheat was quo ted 9 03 and July a t 9 7a Cents : forMay o a t s Chicago quo ted 33 ce nts and fo r J uly 3 25} cents ; whilea t Winnipeg 35 1 was quo ted for May o ats and 30 cents for July.

These quotations alone a re and should b e suffi cient to refute the argument that the prices of g ra ins in Canada are lowe r than in the U nitedStates and that the free admissio n o f such g ra ins will in any way affectthe prices in this country : ra the r

,they indicate that the admission of

Canadian gra ins would larg e ly s timulate ourmarke ts .

In 18 90 the barle y crop o f the U nited States aggregatedbushe ls , with the averag e farme r price o f 4 0 cents p er bushe l, and ofthis to ta l crop about 00p er cent was used fo rmalting purposes.

crop o f 1 9 10 aggregated bushe ls o f barley,with an aver

ag e farn i e r price of about 1 8 cents p e r bushel , and of the to tal crop

only 3 8 per cent was used fo rmalting purpo ses . The westernmaltster, there fore , has no t be en the b ene facto r to the western farmer, ashe pre tends to have b ee n , as he apparently has no t influenced the priceof b arley to the farme r. It is a lso to b e noted that the tremendousincrease in the production of barley has no t seriously affected theprice , no r has the farmer in W isconsin and M innesota been injuredby the production of barley in the adjacent States of North and SouthDakota and Iowa . In fact, they have b een b ene fi ted, and the farmersof the.West and Northwes t w ill likew ise b e benefited b y the admissionof Canadian gra ins , including barley .

U pon the so lic itatio n of this Gove rnment. that concessions would b emade , Canada admitted o ur co rn free . Its importations of corn inrecent years has aggrega ted ,

annua lly upwards of twelve or fifteenmillion bushels . The State s which are no w t he largest producers ofbarley are also the be tter corn - producing States. so that the y shouldb e interested to re ta in the Canadian marke t for the ir surplus corn.

Thedprice of gra in larg e ly depends upo n the law o f supply and

deman While the producer o f g ra in may properly cla im that he isentitled to rece ive fo r his produc ts a profitable sum,s t il l th ere is themass of consume rs who far exceeds the producer in numb ers . who are

a lso entitled to equa l cons idera tio n. We the re fo re submit that theadoption o f the measure having g rea t p o s s ibilities for the expansion ofour foreign trade and the incre a s e d emplo yment o f la b o r at homeshould no t b e je opard ized b y p e rs o na l and sec t iona l prejudic es .

It isto b e hoped , there fo re , tha t the p ropo s ed ag re ement will b e promptlya c ted upon b y o ur C o ng re ss , a nd t o th is end y o ur favo rable conside rat io n is re spectfully urg ed .

A ll o f wh ich is re spect fully s ubmitted .

0. H. McLA U GHLIN .

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1 54 REcIPRocITY W ITH CA N A D A .

STA TEMENT OF FRANCIS M . HU GO , OF WATERTOWN , N. Y .

Mr. IIU GO . I reg re t , Mr. Cha irman and gentlemen , that I am not

able t o rema in o ve r unt il t o—morro w ,but my engagements demand

tha t I g o home to - da y,so that for tha t re ason I will b eg your indul

gence t o he ar me this mo rning .

I come from northe rn New York ,which is the lo cali ty where there

ismo re paper produced than in any o ther section o f the U nited States .

We have there 4 2 papermills—pulp mills—which represent an investment of from th irt y t o thirty~fi ve millions of dollars .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . In whose congressional dis trict is thatMr. I-lt '

o o . In Mr. Knapp ’

s district and Mr. Malb y’

s dis t rict .Watertown is in Mr. Knap ’

s district and ourmills are in Mi . Malbv’

s

district , in St . Lawrence ounty .

The paper industry of tha t se ction opposes the adoption o f thisme asure for the fo llowing reasons : In th e first place

,it is unfa ir

, inour judgment

,t o se lec t one industry and take away its pro te c t ion

and make it p ay the price of good fe llowship be tween this countryand Canada

,especia lly when a lmost e very article except the ground

wood or ulp wood is most highly pro tected . Now,if this were a

ma tter w i ere all the pro tection w as taken off,where all the duty was

taken off of all the commodities tha t go into the manufacture ofpaper

,all th e commodit ies tha t go to make what we ca ll machine

clo thing , th ere might b e some justifica tion for it,b ut as a ma t ter of

fact,fo r example

,take woolens ; the duty on woo lens coming into the

U nit ed Sta te s is 100 p er cent . The duty on woolens into Canada is36 per cent , and there is a preferentia l duty or reduction of 1 2 percent of dut y on the woolens go ing into Canada from Grea t Brita in.

In o ther words,we h ave a duty in this country of 100 p er cent on

woo lens , and in Canada the duty is 2 4 p er cent . There is a lso a duty

of 4 5 p e r cent o n mach inery used .

Mr. CI -\ RK . a minut e .

Mr. HU GO . I b eg pardon .

Mr. CLA RK . Y ou did no t know tha t the duty on some wo o le ns was1 8 2 % p er cent ?Mr. TII'

GO . No : I thought it was b ad enough to put it a t. 100 percent .

Mr. CLA RK . Some Of it runs as high as 1 8 2 p er cent .

Mr. I-IL'

GO . The duty on ma ch inery used in the manufac ture is4 5 p er cen t , and the duty on cla y is a ton . Roughly spe aking,th e dut y on every thing tha t go es into the manufac ture ofpap er, outside of ground wood and pulp w o o d , is most highly pro tec ted ,

andwe fe e l tha t it is an inj ustice , for tha t. re aso n.

in‘

thefirs t place .that

this duty should b e taken Off p a pe r and sulphit e . when evervt-hino'tha t g o es into t he s e c ommodi ti es is mo s t highly p ro tec t-ed .

a

In t he. s e cond place , We Obj e c t to this measure. b ecaus e i t do es notg ive th e indus try any c o nsidera tio n fo r t he pro tec tion which t he b illpropo s es t o t ake off. No w

, as a ma t t e r o f fac t , the dut y o n pulp

wo od , on g ro und wo o d , is | n-

a c t ic a lly no thing ; the du ty o n pulpW o o d is p ra c t ic a ll y no ne ; th e du t y on sulphitc is a tom. Theave rag e du ty on p rint pape r c oming int o this c ountry from Canadais a. to n . It is propo sed in this measure t o take ed t he dutyon sulp hit c of and the duty o n print p a per of and what

REOIPROCITY W ITH CA NA D A . 1 55

do we get in re turn ? We simply ge t a continuance of the conditionsthat ex1st to - day . In o ther words , we ge t no re turn forwha t we give

pp,and there is no considera tion for putting print paper on th e free

ist .

Mr. BO U TELL . What was that figure of a ton ?

Mr. HU GO . I b eg our pardon ?Mr. BO U TELL . I t ought th e duty on print paper was a ton .

Mr. HU GO . Y es ; th e duty on print paper coming into this countryis but plus any restrictions that may exist on pulp wood or

ground wood coming into this country ; so that the average dutyon print paper, th e actua l duty on print paper

,on th e average , is

p er t o n . I am ta lking abo ut th e average duty . The dutyunder th e P ayne bill is and to that is added th e amount ofany restrict ion that is put u on th e importation of print paper

,so

that I s ay , taking th e a c tua l gures of th e Treasury Department,the

average duty on print paper is 5 a t on .

Mr. BO U TELL . Wha t was th e duty under the D ingley law ?Mr. HU GO . $6 a ton .

Mr. BO U TELL . And did th a t same restric t ion of $ 1 a ton prevailunder the Dingley law ?Mr. HU GO . NO

, sir ; I do no t think it did .

Mr. BO U TELL . So that th e comparison you have to make to—daybetween the dut y under th e D ingley law and th e duty under th ePay ne law is th e difference betwe en $6 and a ton ?

Mr. HU GO . Y es .

Mr. BO U TELL . Now,right here , I would like to ask this question .

That is th e th ing about t h e tariff tha t int erest s me more than any

thing else . There is a cert a in scho o l of.t arifi

'

ph ilosophers who

argue that immediately y ou reduce the dut y y ou reduce the pricet o the ultimat e consumer ; aut omati c ally th a t it is reduced . Now

,

if that is th e case , when w e ch anged th e duty from $6 a t on t o

a t on ,taking y our figures , we made a reduct ion of a ton . If

y ou have th e figures convenient , or remember them, I would like toask if print paper is now se lling a t just a ton cheaper than itsold , S a y ,

in February ,1 9 08 ?

Mr. le o . I do no t think that is the fact . for the reason that weall know that when there is tariff a g i ta t ionMr. CLA RK . I know ; b ut , Mr. Witness , Mr. Boutell asked you a

definite question there , at la st .

Mr. BO U TELT. . If y ou have th e fi gure s , can y ou g ive t he price of

print p a er in February ,1 908 ,

1909 1 9 10, and It'

ll ]'

4.

Mr. I U GO . I think th e price of print paper i s pract i cally the sameto - day as it was then .

Mr. BO U TELL . I may say tha t Dun’

s Review ,which is th e most

convenient table ofprices tha t I am able t o fi nd , with parallel columnsfor the week ’

s who lesa le prices o f paper with th e prices of the correspending t ime. in th e previous ye a r, shows , ifmy recollecti on i s cor

rect , that the rice of paper is no t only no t less , but i s more .

HU GO . ell, I th ink I can expla in th a t , if you W lll give mejust a moment .

Mr. BO U TELL . I wanted to ge t a t th e facts first .

Mr. HU GO . Y es .

Mr. BO U TELL . The first fact , then ,wh i ch so many eop le forget ,

is tha t a reduction of the tariff do es no t automati cal y reduce theprice by that amount to th e ultima te consumer.

1 56 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr.

'

HU GO . I think in a ma tt er of tha t kind you have go t t o takein lo ts o f o ther considera tions . For example , I was down herebefo re when this ma tter wa s be ing agita ted . Th e pri ce of paperwasdepressed ; because , as we all know ,

tariff ag i ta ti on h as a bear effecton th e marke t . Prices were reduced a t tha t time .

Mr.BO U TELL . A s Bourke Co ckran says , we can no t put a tariff

o n apprehension .

Mr.HU GO . Certa inly ; there i s th e who le Si tua ti on . During the

ast two ye ars we have fe lt th a t there was a certa in amount of stability in th e paper marke t , and for th a t reason th e prices havebecome stronger ; there is no doubt about tha t . But I do no t thinkit is dire ctly due t o th e effe ct O f the reduction of 6 cents a hundredon paper

,but it is due t o th e fact tha t we know t o - day something

tha t we did no t know two ye ars ago ,and tha t 18 wha t th e tari ff would

b e for a short time . Now,we Wi ll have th e same effe ct to—day and

as long as this agitation continues . Th e purchasers of paper do not

know j ust exactly h ow this ma tter is coming out,and the result is

that they may W i thhe ld the purchase of paper, and i t all has a beareffe ct on the marke t .

Mr. BO U TELL . Now,tha t be ing so ,

as so on as the nervous condition produced by uncertainty in th e marke t disappeared paper wentu to wha t we ca ll a normal price , a ste ady pri ce

,whi ch was equal to

wlfi a t it was before th e tariff reduction ,

whi ch shows,of course

,that in

thi s instance the reduction o f th e tariff by according t o yourfigures , or a ton

,did no t automa tica lly press down th e price of

paper t o th e ul tima te consumer when th e marke t became normal,

which brings me t o thi s question : Wha t ground is there for be lievingtha t under thi s re cipro cit y arrangement paper would no t sell just ashigh as it is se lling now ; and if so

, you would no t have anv objection to it

,would you ?

Mr. H U GO . Why ; I mo st strenuously object t o any change in thepresent tariff on paper

,be cause I think it would have a most dis

astrous effect on th e price Of paper. Take an extreme case,if you

lease . Th e duty t o—day on wha t we ca ll craft paper is 35 p er cent .

h a t paper is worth 4 c ents a pound, $8 a t on . If you take off the

duty of $8 a ton on that commodity what is go ing to b e th e result ?Th e marke t will b e para lyzed . Now

,th e duties taken off by this

measure w ill amount t o all th e way from to $ 2 8 a. ton . Whatwill b e th e result ? Our who le marke t is go ing to become chaotic .

Tha t is th e trouble about this thing .

Mr. BO U TELL . It is going t o become chao tic , as it did be fore , throughapprehension ; as soon as there is certa inty th e market becomes nor

mal,and when th e marke t for paper became norma l it went back to

th e price it wa s under th e D ingle y law .

Mr. HU GO . I hardly think y ou c an argue t h at . for this reason . Int h e fi rst pla ce , th e duty was taken off print paper ; it w as reduced to

from $6 . Now, it is proposed t o t ake t he duty Off entirely , and

if tha t is done it will bring the C ana dian marke t into complete competition with the Ame rican marke t , wh ich did no t exist before .

Mr. BO U TELL . Y ou know bette r than I do wha t the price of paperis

,but if pap er did no t go down whe n was taken Off the tariff ,

what ground is th ere for saying t ha t it would go down if you tookOff $6 ?Mr. HU GO . Tha t is the proposition I want to argue here .

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1 5 8 REC IPRO C ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Canada and in th e U nited Sta tes , and tha t w ill give us a reasonablere turn on our investment .

0

Mr. L O NGWO RTH . Tha t do es no t answermy qu esti on .

Mr. RA N D ELL . I understoo d it like Mr. Lon worth says .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . I understood you t o say t a t th e trouble was thatany importa tion wh a tever from Canada so disturbed th e print—paperma rke t here as t o unse ttle things and make b ad condi ti ons .

Mr. HU GO . Tha t is right .

Mr. LO NGWORTH . A ny importa tion wha tever.

Mr. HU GO . Tha t is right .

Mr. LO NGWORTH . So tha t you advo cate a duty which will b e so

h igh tha t no print paper can b e under any circumstances importedfrom Canada ?Mr. HU GO . No

,I would no t fo llow tha t out t o tha t conclusion .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . I do no t see where you make you dis tinction .

Mr. HU GO . Because I fee l that we ought t o have a duty,as I say ,

t ha t will prote ct us . I am no t asking for any prohibitory duty . Onewould b e prohibitory , th e o ther would b e pro tective .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . I understand you t o say tha t you wanted a dutyunder wh ich no print paper could b e imported under any circumstances .

Mr. Hr o o . No : I brought up th a t ma tter in answ e r to the gentleman the re in re g a rd t o p rint paper coming in from (

'

anada, and he

ra ised th e que s t io n about the amount y o u can bring from there , andI sa id i t is no t a ltog e the r a ques t ion o f th e amount , but it is theque s ti on o f th e w ay tha t th e amount tha t do es come in is handledby the commission merchants in this country .

Mr. LO NGW O RTH . I did no t unde rs tand y ou to say tha t .

Mr. HU GO . Y e s .

Mr. New,ano ther question . A re y o u sure there

were no res tric t io ns on Canadian exports under th e D ingley bill ?In reply to Mr. Bou t e ll yo u sa id tha t when th e $6 duty was on therew ere no restric t ions wh a tever. A re y ou sure of tha t ?Mr. HU GO . Mr. Ha sting s informed me there were no t any .

Mr. HA s'

ri NGs . The re we re no p enalt ieMr. LO NGWO RTH . Then wha tever restrictions have been imposed

have been in the last two years ?Mr. HA STINGS . So far a s Canad a is concerned .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Mr. Hugo has been making an argument that theduty

,while nomina lly it is is in e ffect on account of the

Cana dian restrictions . In reply to a question,Mr. Boutell asked as

t o whe ther,when th e $6 duty was in force , th ere were no t a lso restric

tions , y ou answered no . In o ther words, vo u said tha t when the

D ing ley L aw was in force , the duty was and when the Paynelaw came into force , the duty went t oMr. I—lA s '

ri NGs . If I ma y say j ust a word , under th e D ingley lawOntario pro h ib it-ml th e importa tion of wo o d

,but the duty on paper

was $6 .

Mr. Ii O NGWO RTII. Y e s .

Mr. HA sTINGs . In Quebe c , where they had an excess stumpa g e on

the wood e xp o rte d , th ere w as no o p p o sition to its ex ort at ion int?) theU nited Sta te s from Canad a , and th e. duty was sti l $6 . Wh en theP ayne bill went into effe ct , the duty w a s ii i ade if it w a s madefrom wood cut from priva te lands . If it wa s from wood which was

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 1 59

cut on (‘

rown lands,there was a $2 pena lty ,

which made itNew under the re sent conditions th e actua l facts are tha t half of thep aper comes in ere which is said to b e made from priva te - land wood

,

and half of it is sa id to b e made from Crown—land wood,and the

Treasury D epartment , interpreting tha t , fi xed a duty wh ich amountst o from t o and about ha lf of that wood comes from landsin priva t e ownershi p and ha lf of it from Crown land

,so tha t wha t Mr.

Hugo say s is that th e Government co llects about 5 on th e paperthat is now coming in .

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . Tha t is it .

Mr. HA STINGS . Y e s .

Mr. CLA RK . Mr. Hugo ,when we h ad the he arings here before , you

and Mr. Hastings and o ther wood- pulp men came down here and

tried t o make th e committee be lieve th at if th e tariff w as cut downon wood pulp and print paper the who le business would go to smash .

Well , w e cut th e tariff down on it,and you now come in and state

that it did no t put down the price of print paper a t all,but that

, on

the con trary , th e price Of print paper is higher now than before wecut the tariff down . If tha t is so

,wha t are y ou objecting t o these

changes for“8 If taking the tariff do es no t put down t he price O f your

product , wha t do y ou care about it ?Mr. HU GO . It certa inly w ill e ffe ct the price Of pap er.

Mr. CLA RK . But h ow will it effe ct it this time,if it did no t effe ct

it before ?Mr. HU GO . L e t me answer that indire ctly . Th e argument of the

gentlemen who w anted the duty taken Off print paper w as, If you

do no t do it , you are no t go ing t o ge t any pulp wood from Canada .

”

Y ou made a reduction in th e duty on print paper, and what h as beenthe result ? Th e duty h as been continued at 5 .

Mr. CLA RK . But it w as cut from $6, w as it no t ?Mr. HU GO . Y es

,it wa s ; it has been reduced some .

Mr. CLA RK .

‘Well,I know . Then why did no t th e price come down ;

or if it did no t , how do you fellows account fo r it ?Mr. HU GO . Be cause th e price was arbitrarily fi xed ; because of

the tariff agita tion a t tha t time it was no t a norma l price .

Mr. CLA RK . A s a ma tter Of fa ct,was no t the price art ifi cally fixed

by you gentlemen a fter tha t tariff bill wa s passed ?Mr. HU GO . No

,sir ; no t in th e last . Now ,

as I was saying , in regardto the importa tion of pulp wood , it was ta lked about here , and it h asbeen talked about through th e newsp a ers all during this time

, tha tunless we he ld out the o live branch to Canada there would no t b e anyimporta tion of pulp wo o d from Canada . The result is th a t we are

buying pulp wood a t $3 a cord , cheaper than when we were herebe fore

, the northern marke t is glutted , and the manufa cturers are

more anxious to sell us pulp wo od t o - day than we are to b uy i t .

Mr. CLA RK . Then wha t are y ou kicking about ?Mr. HU GO . Be cause you are taking Off all the duty and givmg us

nothing in re turn .

Mr. CLA RK . If th e price goes up if we take off the duty , you oughtto b e satisfied .

Mr. HU GO . That is no t th e o int . The po int is that you are ta lking about taking th e duty 0 of print paper and sulphi te , and youare no t giving us anything in return

,which is no t re cipro ci ty .

1 60 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. CLA RK . If it automa tica lly goes up , I do no t se e wha t conipla int y o u have go t if this bill passe s th i s way .

Mr. HU GO . Ho w do y ou me an,

“

go e s up’

f?Mr. (

‘LA RK A cco rding to your own story,in answer t o Mr. Boute ll ,

you sa id tha t when we cut the tariff down 1 8 months ago ,instead of

go ing down it went uMr. HU GO . Y es ; it as gone up ,

b ut th e ri se h a s be en very sma ll .Mr. (

‘LA RK . Suppose it h a s be en sma ll .0

Mr. HU GO . It simply h as gone ba ck t o the norma l pri ce . The

o the r price is artificia lly low . That is the trouble “’

l t ll thi s questi on.

Y ou take any stable marke t and cre ate disturbance all through thecountry and le t pe ople believe tha t t he tari ff is going t o b e t aken off,and price s will go down .

Mr. CLA RK . D O y ou think the re wa s anybody foo l enough in thiscountry

,when we passed th e P ayne bill , t o be lieve tha t they were

go ing t o take th e tariff off of rin t paper and pulp . except someDemo cra ts ? It was be a ten in t e House ,

was it no t 4

Mr. HU GO . No ; it was bea ten in th e Sena te .

Mr. CLA RK . The y all vo ted ?Mr. IIU GO . No ; but th e ma j orit y of them voted , and it was put at

$4 in t he Senate,and it was adjusted in the committee be tween the.

two Houses on a basis of

Mr. CLA RK . If y o u h ad come t o me and asked for information,

you would have g o t it in advance tha t they were no t going t o changeanyth ing much in tha t bill .Mr. FOR D NEY . Mr. Boute ll asked y ou if rint pape r had gone down

in rice since th e passage of the P ayne b ilr. HU GO . Y

Mr. FORD NEY . Y ou have explained it now,tha t on account of the

additions added t o th e on account of rebates o r o therrestrictionsover there th e du ty is or

,as Mr. Hastings sa id

,to

Mr. HU GO . Y es .

Mr. FO RD NEY . A nd tha t only reduced th e duty on print paper

Mr. HU GO . Pra ctica lly .

Mr. FO RD NEY . To answer Mr. Bout ell’

s s t a t ement . is it no t truetha t , generally , supply and demand cut a gre a t figure in fix ing thepric

le

dgf any commodity in this country or any o ther country in the

wor

Mr. HU GO . Certa inly .

Mr. FO RD NEY . SO tha t th e supply and demand may have hadmuch to do w ith th e fi xing of thi s ra te ?Mr. HU GO . Y es .

Mr. FORD NEY . But is it no t genera lly understood by everybody ,bo th D emo cra ts and R epublicans—you must agree to tha t—thata reduction of th e du ty means a lowering of th e article to th e con

sumer in this country ?Mr. HU GO . Y es , sir.

Mr. FORD NEY . Tha t is genera lly conceded ,is it no t ?

Mr. HU GO . Y es .

Mr. FORD N EY . Then the ir a rgument do es no t ho ld Good for a

minute , that a reduction of the duty w ill no t lower the jfrice to theconsumer. It will do it , all must concede . except when supply anddemand regula te the price .

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1 62 BECIPROCITY W ITH CA NAD A .

sion house , and we p ay the commission house from 3 to.

5 p er centcommission for the sale ; but th e price is fixed to th e ultima te con

sumer,th e newsp a er.

0

Mr. BO U TELL . Wha t,for example , are Chi cago newspapers paying

for the ir paper ?Mr. HU GO . I should think th e average pri ce would b e per

hundred .

Mr. BO U TELL . Tha t is $4 5 a ton ?

Mr. HU GO . I should say on an 1 8 - cent freight ra te . We have to

p ay th e 1 8 cents out of tha t .

Mr. BO U TELL . D o you know wha t it was selling for in the earlypart of 1 908 ?Mr. HU GO . I would think tha t there was no t over $ 1 or a

ton difference .

Mr. BO U TELL . More or less than it is ?Mr. HU GO . I should say ,

on account of the fa cts I have stated,

the price may have been a little less . I am no t go ing to take anyo ther osit ion here than this , tha t on a ccount of the fact that thetariff as been se ttled there h as been some increase in the price of

a er.pEff . BO U TELL . I was trying to ge t ba ck to a po int be fore it was

unse ttled . I took January , 1908 ; tha t was before any conventionshad de clared for tariff revi sion . I am willing to go further back.

Mr. HU GO . Y es .

Mr. BO U TELL . Wh a t was the price of a er in 1907 ?

Mr. HU GO . D o you remember tha t,

r. ast ings ?

Mr. HA STINGS . It was higher.

Mr. BO U TELL . Can you g ive it ?Mr. HA STINGS . There is no se t price . There is no se t price for 30

da 8 , and in years it will vary 10 p er cent in the price .

NIT . BO U TELL . That is th e reason that I fi xed the rice then . I

(fihxed it in Chi cago . Dun’

s Revi ew tables are given or New York'

t

13h. HA STINGS . They are not correct any more than the quotations'

ven in th e Journal of Commerce of New York City are correct.h ey pre tend to give th e price of paper

,but there is no record of

actua l charges forYpaper.

Mr. RA ND ELL . on say that th e agitation at the time the tariffbill was enacted lowered the price of paper ?Mr. HU GO . Y es .

Mr. RAND ELL. I was go ing to ask you how much it had beenlowered by th e agitation .

Mr. HU GO . Y ou were go ing to ask me that ?Mr. RA ND ELL. Y es

, that is what I was o ing to ask you.

Mr. HU GO . I think that on account of t e tariff agitation the priceof rint paper on the who le was reduced a t leas t $2 a ton.

RAND ELL. Then i t resumes its normal position afterwards ?Mr. HU GO . The price is better to - day than i t was at the time the

o thermeasure was a itated, b ut it is on account of the more settled

condition in the mar et .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Is it higher than it was two years ago ?Mr. HU GO . Would that b e

.

rior to this o ther bill ?RA ND ELL . Y es ; th e b i was enacted on th e 5th of August ,

19 9 .

BECIPBOCITY W ITH CANAD A . 163

Mr. HU GO . I think the price is about the same as it was then, and

then when this tariff agitation came up before the people, th e price

was reduced somewhat on that a ccount .

Mr. RA ND ELL . The 25 p er cent reduction on the tariff made no p ercep t ib le change ? It was th e disturbance in the country ? Is not thereason for that that both th e $6 and the average rate , ororWhatever i t i sMr. HU GO . Y es.

Mr. RA ND ELL (continuing) . Th e average rates are bo th pra cticallyprohibitiveMr. HU GO . No , sir.

Mr. RA N D ELL . A nd therefore one wi ll keep the price up just as

much as the o ther?Mr. HU GO . No , sir.

Mr. RA ND ELL . Since th e reduction in the tariff, Wha t has been the

increase in importation from Canada to this country ?Mr. HA STINGS . The increase there is from nothing t o

pounds, an average of about pounds of news paper a month.

I b eg t o ca ll th e attention of th e committee to a mi sstatementmadeby Mr. Hi ll as to the imports into this country from Canada . Therewas only pounds went into Canada , and poundscame into this country .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Are you aware What have been the importationssince this bill went into effect ?Mr. HA ST INGS . A bout an average of tons p er month from

nothing .

Mr. RA ND ELL . That would b e tons a year ?Mr. HA STINGS . Y es .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Y ou say that h as no t lowered the price in thiscountryMr. HA STINGS . No , sir; it is through the law of supply and demand.

Mr. HU GO . Through th e law of supply and demand .

Mr. RAND ELL . Even with tha t, th e price h as no t gone down . Whydo you think th e price would go down if it was lowered still more ?Mr. HU GO . If it was all taken off ?

Mr. RA ND ELL . Y es .

Mr. HU GO . Because Canada can produce news p a er cheaper thanwe could possibly produce it . Th e average cost 0 pulp wood a t

.

a

Canadi an mill is $4 a cord cheaper than it is in this country—tha t is ,the wood laid down at the mill . It takes a cord and a h alf of woodto make a ton of paper, which means tha t th e Canadi ans have an

advantage over us of $6 a ton . In addition to that , i t was demonstrated in th e hearings before th e Mann committee tha t th e averageprice of unskilled labor is lower in Canada than it is in thi s country ,although th e price of skilled labor is practically th e same In bo thcountri es . Now , suppose you take a cord and a half of ulp woodat Mr. Boo th’

s mi ll in Canada . He can make that up an ship i t to

the U nited Sta tes on practically the same fre ight rate that we do .

Now, if you ship that into Watertown , we have to p ay $4 a cord

freight on tha t wood , and when it is in ourmill yard there i s an advan

tage to Canada of $6 a ton on the wood going into a ton of prmt

paper. We make it into paper and ship it to the marke t on the samee

liirh t as Mr. Boo th ships h is on .

RA ND ELL . How much reduction can you stand of the p resenttariff and still not reduce the price ?

1 64 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. HU GO . We can no t stand any reductionin th e duty on print

p a er if th e paper industry is t o continue in thi s country .

r. RA ND ELL . D id you no t say ,when you were before th e commi t

t ee a year and a ha lf ago , tha t if it was reduced any i t would ruin theindustryMr. HU GO . Y es .

Mr. RA ND ELL . A nd tha t prophecy h as no t been fulfilled ?Mr. HU GO . Y es ; but there is a difference be tween taking off

and taking off0

Mr. RA N D ELL . But did you no t say th e same thing then—that ifwe reduced it anyMr. HU GO . We argued th e same thing then as we argue new 1D

regard to taking off th e who le duty . We were never asked to fi x theduty a t any particular spo t .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Did you no t say if th e duty was reduced any a t allit would practically ruin th e aper industry ?Mr. HU GO . Th e argumentPmade was tha t if the $6 duty was taken

off it would ruin th e paper business .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Did y ou no t say that if it was reduced a t all itwould ruin th e paper business ; tha t you could no t any more than geta long wi th th e $6 ra te ?Mr. HU GO . I did no t say it . It may have been sta ted here by

somebody . I argue here now aga ins t th e taking off of any of theuty .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Then if we take off any of the duty , you think itwill reduce th e rate of paper in this country ?Mr. HU GO . Wh at is tha t

,aga

Mr. RA ND ELL . If any of the duty is taken off, you think that Will

reduce th e price of paper in this country ; if any of the duty is

taken off

Mr. HU GO . If the duty is reduced ma teria lly,of course

Mr. RA ND ELL . So tha t if $ 1 is taken off it wi ll reduce the price ?Mr. HU GO . No

,I would no t say tha t , be cause I can no t te ll you

h

fiw much the law of supply and demand is going to enter into this

t ing .

Mr. RA ND ELL . The law of supply and demand will enter Whe therthere is a tariff or no t , unless the tariff is prohi bitive .

Mr. HU GO . A s we have stated, the present duty is no t prohibitive ,

be cause under the 5 duty the importa tions have increased fromno thing p ermonth t o tons p ermonth .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Wha t is the amount consumed in this country ?Mr. HU GO . In this country

,to - day ?

Mr. RA ND ELL . Y es .

Mr. HU GO . Th e average production p er day of print paper istons .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Then th e amount tha t h as come in no t coming fromCanada i s a li ttle more than one—thirtie th of th e amount consumedin the country ?Mr. HU GO . I should think about that .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Or about 3 p er cent ?Mr. HU GO . I have no t figured it .

Mr. RA ND ELL . The importations are about'

3 p er cent , or someth inglike tha t ?Mr. HU GO . Y es .

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1 66 RECIPBOCITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. HA STINGS . It is about th e same . I do no t know what the Covington rate is . I think it is abou t 1 5 cents fromNorway, and I thinkit 18 about the same .

Mr. GA INES . Fifteen cents er hundred ?Mr. HA STINGS . P er hundredpounds ; about $3 a ton .

Mr. GA INES . Does anyone know the ra te from Covi ngton to NewYorkMr.HA STINGS . It is 14 cents ; so th a t it is Th at is 20cents a ton.

Mr. GA INES . Twenty cents in favor of the Ameri can producer?Mr. HA STINGS . Y es .

Mr. BO U TELL . Wha t are th e largest consumers of prin t paper—thethree or four largest newspapers ?Mr. HA STINGS . Th e biggest consumers are th e Hearst se t of newsa ers .pHr. BO U TELL. He arst is th e largest consumer ?

Mr. HA STINGS . I think h e is th e largest individual buyer of printa er.pHr. FO RD NEY . He is in favor of free trade on news print paper.

Mr. HU GO . I think so,if h e is logical . If I was a b ig consumer it

might affect me somewha t .

Mr. BO U TELL . Of course tha t includes a cha in of papers .

Mr. HU GO . Y es ; one in New York, and one in Chicago , and he hadano ther one in San Francisco . I do no t know how much truth thereis in it , but I was to ld tha t Mr. Hearst’s chain of newsp a ers con

sumed a thousand tons of paper in ge tting out an Easter e ition one

year. I can give you my authori ty for tha t if you want it .

Mr. BO U TELL . What are th e next largest consumers ?Mr. HU GO . Th e New York apers , I resume

, are th e next largestconsumers . Th e New York orld is afarga consumer, and th e NewYork Hera ld and New York Times ; and in Chi cago , the large papersthere . Wh at are th e largest papers in Ch icago ?

1Mr. HA STINGS . The Tri bune and the Record . The Tri bune is the

ar est .

Hr. HILL . I have j ust been consulting the sta tistica l reports of theTre asury for last year, and I fi nd this t o b e the situa tion ,

that weexported t o Great Brita in pounds of print pa

per, to

A ustralia pounds , t o Japan ounds , t o Canadapounds , t o Cuba ounds

, t o rgent ina

p ounds , and t o Chile poun S .

That which went t o Canada paid a duty of 15 per cent t o get intoCanada . I suppose it went in free t o Gre at Britain . Those are thelargest consumers , making up a tota l of shipment of aboutpounds of print p a er t o these various countries

,some of them free

trade and some 0 them with a duty ; Canada with 1 5 er cent ,amongst others . That paper went from these ports in the ollowingamounts :

o o o o o o o o o

7 2, 000, 000

RECIPROCITY W ITH CA NAD A . 167

NOW, I assume you accept that sta tement ?Mr. HU GO . What is the aggrega te of tha t ?Mr. HILL . A bout pounds, going and coming . Was that

paper so ld at a less rice , if you know anything about it,than it is

so ld forwithin th e nit ed States ?Mr. HU GO . I would like Mr. Hastin s to answer that .

Mr. HILL . That is pap

er shi ed a over the world,and shipped

mainly fromBoston an New ork .

Mr. HA STINGS . I heard what you sa id .

Mr. HILL . Was it sold a t a lowerprice than paperwas so ld forhere ?Mr. HA STINGS . No . In the first place

,that shipment which went

to Canada , whi ch excites your interest, was made for the first time

from this country by a little mill in Minneso ta at International Falls,

which is on the border.

Mr. HILL . Th e records here Show that this is continuous in everyyear and that it h as increased this last yearMr. HA STINGS . Not go ing into Canada . I b eg your pardon, no t

going into Canada , because they only put in pounds there a

ew months a 0 .

Mr. HIL L . Th e record shows tha t there was exp orted from theU nited Sta tes to Canada , of print paper, in 1 906, pounds ;in 1907 , pounds ; in 1 908 , in 1909 ,

pounds ; and in 1 9 10, Since the Payne tariff bill wasdp asse

d, it has

increased 50 p er cent , and gone up to poun s .

Mr. HA STINGS . That increase was a er that was made for thefirst time this year at Internationa l a s, Minn , and on account ofthe freight rate as compared wi th the freight rate from the easternmills and Quebec , they could afford to p ay that 15 p er cent duty and

get into Canada a t that particular po int .

Mr. HIL L . There is no record in the Government reports of anypaper b e

'

exp ort ed through the port tha t you speak of over then

prthwest oundary . There is no record Of any paper go ing out of

t at ort .

Mr

?HA STINGS . I do not know where the entries are made .

Mr. HILL . These shipments were made from Boston, New York,and Portland ; fromWillamette poundsMr. HU GO . FromWillamette it might come into Canada ; that is ,

into Bri tish Columbia .

Mr. RA ND ELL . There is one port there in Vermont , is there not ?Mr. HILL . How is it that we can sell pounds of print

paper in 1909 to Great Britain in competition wi th Sweden end

orway , and in competition wi th Canada , if we can not ship i t to

Canada on the same basis , ri ght here , wi thin a day’s travel ?

Mr. HA STINGS . I do no t see how you can say on the same b aSIS ,because England is free .

Mr. HILL . Exactly .

Mr. HA STINGS . The duty in Canada is 1 5 er cent .Mr. HILL . Y es ; but this proposed lan is es .

Mr. HA STINGS . I will no t go into t e question of that .

Mr. GA INES . D o youmean se ll it to England , proper, or to Canada ?Mr. HILL . Se ll it

’

to England , pro er. How can we do it ?Mr. HA STINGS . The way we have een treated as manufacturers of

paper in this country, any marke t we have we propose to ho ld onto .

1 68 REC IPROCITY W ITH CA NAD A .

If Congress does no t propose to pro te ct us in our home trade , we Wi llho ld onto wha t marke ts we have and can ge t .

Mr. HILL . I say th e same thing .

Mr.HA STINGS . A nd we want to ho ld onto as much of tha t trade as

we can ,because they have stuck to us .

Mr. HILL . A nd you would , anyway ?Mr. HA STINGS . We would under the

fpresen

tcondi ti ons , the way

we are trea ted before the L eg isla ture 0 this country . Tha t is thepla in answer to it . A s manufacturers we propose to ho ld anymarke t we have , because you are trying to take away all our pro teotion , and we are a ttacked upon every quarter in every way .

Mr. HILL . This ex orted paper is so ld like mo st o ther such experts,at a less price than t e same i s so ld for in the U nited Sta tes ?Mr. HA STINGS . Very little less .

Mr. HILL . But it is so ld for somewha t less ?Mr.HA STINGS . In order to ge t th e trade and keep it we might have

t o se ll a t less , and we would do it under the conditi ons to—day .

Mr. RA ND ELL . \ Th e situation is tha t unless the Congress of the

U nited Sta tes a llows you to have the American marke t SO that youhave a prohibitive tariff , you are go ing to se ll to o ther people abroada t a lower price so as to ho ld tha t marke t ?Mr . HA STINGS . We propose to kee our plants running as long as

we can ,and then if we can no t run them any longer we w ill pack up

and ge t out of the businessMr. GA INES . D o you know anyth ing about such conditions abroad

,

Whe tlé

er o ther na tions have a sma ller export price than the ir domesticri cepMr. HA STINGS . They certainly do . The Germans have a regular

arrangement by which they sell , by the sanction of the Government,a t a less price in fore ign countries .

Mr. GA INES . I know it has been proved here ha lf a do zen times thatin the stee l industry the difference between the domestic and exportrices in the U nited Sta tes is less than the difference be tween theomest ic and export prices in every o ther country in the world .

Mr. HA STINGS . Y es ; we know it is on p a er. That is so in manyo ther countries ; no tably, Germany throug her Government railroads and o ther devices favor the plan of assaulting foreign marketsby the German manufacturers .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Can you state approxima tely what that difference is in th e case of Germany ?Mr. HA STINGS . NO I would no t a ttempt to state , because I do not

know ,but

_it is a ma tter of record there tha t they are allowed to do it .

Mr. GA INES . Germany does no t manufacture paper ?Mr. HA STINGS . Y es ; sh e does . Sh e is one of the largest exporters

into th e English market t o - day on certa in grades .

Mr. FORD . Is it true tha t th e labor in th e manufacturing of paperin this country rece ives more p ay than that class of labor receives inany other country y ou know of

, unless it might b e Canada ?Mr. HA STINGS . Y es . Th e average in Canada is less than it is here .

Mr. FORD NEY . Well , take tha t for granted tha t tha t is true . Now,

th e rice of your wood is higher h ere , by $4 , as Mr. Hu 0 says,than

in anada . It seems that you must have a reasonab e amount ofpro tection, or e lse on will b e a t a great disadvantage with yourneighbors , in the in ustry

?

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1 70 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CANAD A .

happened in th e last 1 8 months tha t the duty on pri nt paper shouldb e taken off entirely , of a t on ?

Mr. ELLIS . Th e recipro city trea ty h as been promulga ted .

Mr. FORD NEY. They have changed th e R epubli can platformado t ed in Chicago .

r. RA ND ELL . The eople are go ing to have some say Ins tead of

th e Re ub li can arty ,Iwould say ,if suggesti ons are being made .

Mr.

‘IU GO . es . We have been asked t o sta te any new argumentshere on this proposition . I say , wha t right have they to ask us to

inform them of any new arguments any more than we have t o ask to

b e informed wha t h as happened in the meantime,If anything has

happened , t o j ustify the curtailing of thi s duty and putting us In anyless favorable condition for com e t ing Wi th Canada tha t di d not

exist 15 months ago ? I think we ave j ust as much right to ask thatas th e o ther fellow h as t o askwhat new arguments we have to advancewhy we Should pro tect our own bread and butter.

In the next place , in regard to th e

guest i on brought up here in

regard to the importa tion of ul woo from Canada , i t was arguedat tha t time

,and it h as been t e undament al argument ofMr. Mann

from th e start in thi s ma tter,tha t unless we held out the O live branch

t o Canada in th e way of free trade and lower duties on pri nt paper

we would have no pulp wood from Canada . I have stated to you t at

there is more pulp wood coming in than therewas three years ago , andthat th e price is $2 a cord less than it was three years ago , and tha t therice in th e U ni ted Sta tes is sim ly limi ted by th e demand of thenited Sta tes

,and if we give up this duty of 5 a ton on sulpbi te

and a ton on print paperwe get abso lute ly no considera tion as

an industry for giving up those consi dera tions .

Now,in th e next place

,thismeasure will defeat one of the strongest

arguments that h as been advanced in favor of it . It h as been arguedhere

,and h as been argued through the press, tha t the great reason

for this is tha t it w ill conserve the timber lands in the U ni ted Statesif this duty is taken off under the provisions of the bill and there isth e question in regard to whe ther the duty is taken off papermadefrom wood Sim ly grown on lands in private ownershi or grown on

Crown lands . ow,sup ose it is taken off of paperma e out ofwood

grown in private owners ip ,what w ill b e the result ? That duty of

will b e an obj ect to th e Canadian manufacturer,and he will

come into th e market as a compe titor ag ainst us for wood grown in

private ownership , and th e amount coming into the U ni ted States wille lessened and th e price will go up , and the American manufacturerw ill b e obliged , instead of conserving , to dev asta te our forests, becauseour sup ly from Canada w ill b e lessened , and w e w ill b e obliged to cutwood w ere we can ge t it be tter and che a er. We are trying to con

serve our forests . We spend thousands of do llars every y e ar plantingseedlings , and we have foresters . There is g o ing to beno incentivenow for us to do tha t , be cause we can go up into ourwoods and cut a

'

cord of w o od an d ge t it che aper than we can from Canada . We are

trying t o conserve the wood by getting it from Canada , and this takingO ff o f all the duty w ill me an a gre ater demand for wood grown inprivate ownership , because i t comes in free

, Whereas the wood fromCrown lands will no t b e fre e . Th e result will b e tha t ourwood comingfrom C anada W i ll b e curtailed to that extent .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A . 1 7 1

A s I have stated , we have asked tha t a duty b e fixed at an amounte ual to the difference of th e cost of production in Canada and in thenited States , and I have stated wha t that duty is . I have no t

changed my figures at all from wha t we gave here two years ago , andthat Is that Canadian wood can b e put down at th e mi lls over there a t$4 a cord less than we can et it for in this country . It takes a cordand a half of wood to ma e a ton of aper, whi ch gives them an

advantage , right there , of $6 a ton on the wood go ing into a ton ofprint paper. In addition to tha t , th e labor is cheaper than it is inthis country, and we Simply ask tha t th e duty b e re tained . We do

not ask a prohibitive du ty . I go on record now,so far as we are

concerned, that we do no t want a prohi bitive duty . We want a dutythat will give us a square deal , tha t W ill ut us on the same basis as tocost of production as they are on in anada

,so as to equalize th e

"difference , which is a t least $6 a ton .

NOW ,we h ad confi dence in this ma tter, tha t this would b e argued

and discussed by th e Tariff Board , and members of th e Tariff Boardhave been up through our se ction and we have opened our books tothem and given them all th e confi dentia l informa ti on we had, and wehave done everything we could to enlighten th e Tariff Bo ard and

Congress and th e President in this ma tter, and it seems to me tha t a tthi s time we should no t bring this matter up before th ese boardshave reported on it .

If they have made any re ort it h as no t been a complete report,

because th e mills have no t een examined completely through theWest

,and there h as been li ttle or no investiga tion made in Canada ,

and it seems t o me it is only fair tha t thi s matter should remaindormant until you get a report from the Tariff Board that wi ll sta tein dollars and cents whe ther we are te lling th e truth or no t .

Mr. GA INES . A bout when did th e Tariff Bo ard begin this in

vestigation of rint paper ?Mr. HU GO . do no t thi nk it h as been over three months ago .

They were up in our district,and we opened th e books , and we are

only too glad to give all th e information we have g o t ; and I want t otell you right now ,

if we can no t demonstra te through th e TariffBoard that all we want is a fair dea l , I will say ,

take th e duty Off;because I can demonstra te tha t we can no t compete with th e manufacturers of paper in Canada , and when we ge t $6 duty it is no t anymore than we are ent itled

'

t o . Tha t seems t o me t o b e a fa ir and

square sta tement .

Mr. HILL . Mr. Chairman,it is time for us to adj ourn ,

is it no t ?Mr. HU GO . I thank you ,

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen,for thi s

hearing , and I presume you will hear o thers t o -morrow .

STATEMENT OF MR . F . J . SENSENBRENNER ,OF NEENAH, WIS .

Mr. SENSENBRENNER . Mr. Cha irman and gentlemen of the committee

, this treaty goes a good dea l further in its effect upon the paperindustry than the P ayne tariff bill did , no t merely because of itseffect upon news print paper, th e quality of paper used by th e dai lynewspapers

,altoge ther, but in its effe ct upon book paper and wrap

pmlgpaper.

pon book papers which come wi thin th e range of pri ce fromsay , to 4 cents p er pound , there is a t present a duty of $ 10 p er ton ,

1 7 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CAN AD A .

and u on wra in a er there is a duty of 35 er cent ad va lorem,

makinpit frorh

p$ 1§ §0

1

p er t on to $2 8 p er ton .Hi nt right upon thatpoint want to answer a po int raised by Mr. Hill . The exporta tionsO f paper from thi s country to Canada include all

1gra

des of paper

book p a ers , wrap ing papers , wri ting p apers , wa paper, and news

aper. In Sch edu e A of the commodi ti es t o b e ii t u on the free'

st , or ra ther th e articles to b e put upon th e free i st, t ose arti cles

exported to Canada , it is sta ted tha t only pounds Of_

news print

p a er was exported from the U ni ted States Into Canada in the yearn g March 3 1 , 19 10.

Mr. HILL . On page 19 of thi s pamphle t you Wi ll fi nd tha tounds of print paper, valued at no t more than 2 } cents

per ound,

hen,right below that , in th e next item,

Of print paper va ue above2 } cents er pound and no t above 2 § cents a pound

,the amount

exported rom the U nited Sta tes in to Canada was pounds.Tha t went a t a duty of 2 4 p er cent .Mr. SENSENBREN NER . I assumed th at th a t tonnage included every

thing above 2 } cents .

Mr. HILL . N0 ; there are three items in tha t table , of print paper.

Th e first is print paper valued at no t more than 2 } cents p er pound,of which there were pounds exported into Canada . That wasa t 15 p er cent . Then of print p aper valued above 2—i cents and notabove 2 ? cents p er pound , there were pounds exported intoC anada , and tha t went in paying a duty of 2 4 p er cent . Then ofth e third class of paper, above 2 9, cents and no t above 4 cents

,there

was none tha t went into Canada .

Mr. SEN SENBRENNER . We know O f our own knowledge tha t considerab le p aper within tha t range of prices went into Canada .

Mr. MCCA LL . What page have you ?Mr. SENSENBRENNER . This is on p age 19 , the same as Mr. Hill has .

HILL . Then if you look on page 63 of this same pamphlet youwill fi nd the re all classes of paper

,and you will fi nd tha t ofprint paper

last ye ar there were pounds ; but it does no t classi fy it as it isclassified on pag e 1 9 .

Mr. SEN SENBRENNER . A nything tha t is used for da ily newspapers ,o r printing books , and everything e lse , includ ing all paper, I assumefrom this classifica tion ,

is in there .

Mr. HILL . Here was a factor in tha t tonnage of paper hangings notc lassifi ed separa te ly .

Mr. HA STINGS . No t the raw material .Mr. HILL . This re fers to print paper be low 25 cent s a pound .

Mr. SENSENBRENNER . That is,this item of pounds ?

Mr. HILL . N0 ; tha t includes everything .

Mr. SENSENBRENNER . That is wha t I assumed .

Mr. HILL . It does no t include writing paper or wall paper.

Mr. SENSENBRENNER . NO ; but printing p apMr. HILL . A nd it doe s no t include o ther classe s of paper.

It simply includes print paper. If you w ill look on p age 63 , you w

ill seepaper hang ings , so much ; printing p a per, so much ; writing paper andenvelopes , so much ; and all other paper

, so much ; and the i tem ofprir

c

i

l

t ing p a

fpgg p

punié

s; a i

l

id in the classification which Irea you o oun s

,i i s c assifi ed

sent to these fore ign eou

Iii tries.pure ly as print paper,

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RECIPROCITY WITH CANADA.

COMM ITTEE O N WA YS A ND MEA NS,

HO U SE O F REPRESENTA TIVES,

Tuesday, February 7 , 19 1 1 .

The committee met a t o’clock a . m.

,Hon . Samuel W . McCall

(acting chairman) presiding .

Present : The acting chairman and Messrs . Hill , Boutell , Needham,

Fordney,Gaines , Longworth, Ellis, U nderwood , Pou,Randell , Brous

sard , and Harrison .

Mr. MCCA LL . Th e committee will b e in order. Without objection,

the clerk will no te th e presence of a quorum. There is a gentleman

here , Mr. McCullough , wh o was introduced to me by Mr. Cooper,who

desires to leave town at once,and who h as a brief statement to make

which I am informed wi ll only take a very few minutes . Mr.

McCullough ,the committee wi ll hear y ou .

STATEMENT OF E. W . McCU LLOU GH, OF CHICAGO , ILL.

Mr. MCCU L LO U GH . Mr. Chairman and members of th e Ways and

Means Committee,I speak for th e National Implement and Vehicle

Association of th e U ni ted Sta tes of America,re resenting th e manu

facturers and who lesalers,large and small

,in a lines of agricultural

implements and vehicles used in th e tillage , harvesting , and transportation of crops . Th e capita l employed in these lines approximatesto The employees number over A carefulcanvass recently made of our membership shows that all who are

interested in th e development of trade wi th Canada favor reciprocity .

We therefore desire t o express our satisfaction with th e reciprocalagreement submitted t o Congress , believing it to b e a most importantfirst step toward more satisfactory trade relations with our northernneighbors . That is all

, gentlemen .

Mr. MCCA LL . A re there any questions ? Tha t is all, then ,

Mr.

McCullough .

Now, the gentlemen wh o were be ing he ard upon the paper and

pulp and wood schedule or provi sions of the bill may pro ceed .

STATEMENT OF ALFRED S . HA LL, ESQ OF BOSTON, MASS.

Mr. HILL . Mr. Ha ll,will you no t , be fore you start , give to the

commi ttee your understanding of the provisions of thi s bi ll , so tha twe may li sten intelligently ; I mean ,

so far as it re lates to your p arti cular industry ?Mr. HA LL . Y es , sir.

'

Mr. BO U TELL . I did no t hear your statement as to your occupati on, and so on .

Mr. HA LL . I practice law in Boston ,and I ho ld quite a good many

securities of the Interna tional P aper Co . as a trustee for o thers . I1 75

1 76 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

am no t a regular a ttorney of th e Interna tiona l or any o ther paper

organization ; but having such intere st s

hl have for some years had

quite a familiarity with the p aper-making industry in i t s relati on to thenewspap ers and o ther intere st s—publi shers and the i r companies .

Mr.HILL

.I referred in my questi on t o th e provi si ons on p a es 19

,

20, and 2 4 ,as to the effe ct of this bill introduced by Mr. McCal upon

your industry , as y ou understand it .

Mr.HA LL . Y es

,sir. I am very much obliged for tha t Inqui ry,

and I do no t intend to speak a t length , but will just take up thatmatter

,then .

Now,of course , if the p apermakers in the U mt ed States get any

thing reci rocal from th e passage of this act,it would b e free wood

into the nit ed States . It is giving to Canada , right out , the op or

tunity to avail of th e market for th e manufactured paper; no hindrance , no duty whatever, remaining . Now

,if we do not get that

wood with entire freedom,we ge t no thing at all

,and th e title is mis

leading .I understand th e correspondence tha t makes th e interpre

t at ion,so far as th e President’s message go es , t o mean that the

Canadian Commissioners understood tha t th e exclusion duty—that is,

the ex ort charge—that is se t up by some of th e Provi nces of Canadaon pu p wood coming into th e U nited States , must b e abo lishedbefore print paper should come into thi s country free . That corresp ondence would seem to me t o have tha t interpreta tion—that theexpecta tion of th e Canadian re resent at ives was that , no t only fromrivate lands but from Crown ands

,pulp wood should come in here

ree .

Now,Mr. Cha irman and gentlemen ,

I do not fee l sure that thelanguage that h as been referred to by Mr. Hill here would accomplishthat , and if it should fail of

'

th at,it would b e a great misfortune and

a matter of inadvertence,I think . I do no t understand why there

should have been in the bill any possibili ty of ambiguity . I do not

understand now tha t there ought t o b e le ft by this committee anypossible ambiguity about it . I do no t suppose it matters what myown construct ion is , or even what any lawyer upon the committeemay b e satisfied is the true construction ,

or even Wha t may b e theconstruction of th e who le committee

,but the question is to have such

language as a court of fi na l resort w ill surely interpret accordin to

th e intention of th e two Governments , and have tha t distinct . OW,

having under consideration'

ust about th e same lan uage that is inthis dra ft of the bill that is efore us , th e Treasury Department hasmade an interpre ta tion ,

which appears in Treasury Decisions (vol. 18 ,p . 207 ) and is numbered Treasury decision 3004 5 , da ted O ctober 16,1909

,and in review ing a decision previously made

,No . 2 99 68 . The

language is'

ust about th e same in th e tariff act of A ugust 5 , 1909 , asin this bill ere , and in construing and making a pli ca tion of pararaphs 4 06 and 4 09 of the P ayne Tariff A ct of ugust 5 , 1909 , the

reasury Department says this :

A s th e re cord s on fi le in th e de pa rtment do no t Show th a t. any Provinces in theD omi nion excep t Que b e c and O nta rio imp ose an ex tra duty . or proh ib i t ex ortationof p ulp orp a perorwood . all ground pulp from oth e r Provinces come s in free .

IMechanically ground W o od p ulp p ro duc e d from ulp wood produced on private lands in theProvinc e s ofQue b ec and ( ln lurio Sh ould lie admitted fre e of duty .

Now , tha t langu

gage applied here would

,as I understand the

me aning of th e b i I, e t in print paper abso lu te ly free the instant thisbill is passed—right away .

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1 7 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

lands , would no t b e more than about one - fi ft ieth ,and perhaps not

mo re than one one—hundredth .

Mr. FO RD NEY . No t more than one one - hundredth partMr.HA LL . That is what I understand .

Mr. LO NGW ORTH . I do no t think y ou have answered Mr. Hill’squestion .

Mr. HA LL . I am gomg t o , right away .

Mr. LONGWO RTH . I think we want to know that , first of all.Mr. MCCA LL . I think Mr. Ha ll is coming t o it . He is saying that

there will b e an ambiguity anyway , regardless of h is Opinion ,and he

bases tha t on the Treasury decision ,whi ch , as he unders tands , is

upheld by some court , and now I think h e is coming t o th e(po

in

t.

Mr. HA LL . I am assuming t o give my own Opinion ,as I um erstand

about it .Mr. LO NGWORTH . I will ask you j ust wha t your view would b e on

th e passage of this bill as it is Written ,no t viewed in th e light of any

nego tia tionsMr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. L ONGWO RTH . Or any other agreement ; as thi s b i ll stands , whatis our Opinion ? Is no t tha t it , Mr. Hill ?

r. HILL . Y es ; j ust give us your own Opinion .

Mr. MCCA LL . O f wha t th e courts would ho ld t o b e th e law .

Mr. LO NGW ORTH . In o ther words , we w ant to know on what basisexactly ,

these gentlemen are basing the ir opinion abou t this bill.

Mr. HILL . Tha t is right .

Mr. BO U TELL . Just preliminary t o tha t , I wo uld like t o have yougive your opinion on this question . If this bill in its exac t languageshould b e enac t ed into law , and should by any me thod of appea l comebefore th e Supreme Court of th e U nited Sta tes for construction

,do

you apprehend tha t tha t tribunal in forming it s opinion would feelauthorized under the precedents to take into considera tion any of

this preliminary correspondence between the U nited Sta tes and the

Dominion of Canada ?Mr. HA LL . I think ,

Mr. Boute ll,tha t the Supreme Co urt w ould give

a grea t dea l of we ight to tha t co rrespondence , as int erpreting it . Ithink any court do es tha t .

Mr. MCCA LL . Tha t would b e in a question of doub t .

Mr. HA LL . In a question of doubt .

Mr. MCCA LL . In a question of doubt as t o th e meaning ofCongress .

Mr. HA LL . Y es . Then th e court alway s go es , as I understand it ,into th e circumstances that a ttend a t th e enactment of the law ,

and

tha t would take into review tha t correspondence,I be lieve . NOW ,

a art from that correspondence , g entlemen . I should say as a lawyertffat print paper could come in here right aw a y w ithout th e Provinces

'

be ing o bliged t o le t in any Crown land wo od .

Mr. HILL . Now ,may I ask y ou a qu es t io n right. there ?

Mr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. HILL . On mg e 24 of the bill it. provides : Pulp of wood mechanically groun pulp of wood , chemical , bleached or unbleached ;news print paper and o ther paper, and paper bo ard and this specifies all these things , but does no t say anything about the land .

Mr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. HILL . Now,If

.you turn right back on page 20, is not the language clear and expli ci t that these things on page 2 4 must have been

REC IPROC ITY YVITH CA NA D A . 1 7 9

rovided for in Canada to b e admitted there , all of them,free of duty

,

before the provis ions on pages 1 9 and 20 go into effect at all ?Mr. HA LL . I

‘

should say no t .

Mr. HILL . Le t me read the language .

Mr. HA LL . Y es ; I read it .

Mr. HILL . It reads :

P roridcd, Tha t th e articles ab ove enumerat ed,th e grow th , product , ormanufac ture

of th e D ominion of Canada ,shall b e exemp t from duty wh en th e President of th e

U nited States shall h ave satisfactory evidenc e and sha ll make proclama tion tha t th efollowing articles , th e growth , product , ormanufacture of th e U nited Sta tes or any of

its p ossessions (excep t th e Ph ilip p ine Islands and th e island s ofGuam and Tutuila ) ,are admitted into th e D ominion of Canada free of duty .

A nd then on page 2 4 it specifies what those articles are .

Mr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. HILL . Now,why h as no t th e President go t to fi nd that Canada

has acted and admitted all these things free before our legisla tion goesinto effect a t all ?

fi Mr. HA LL . Because in the correspondence it is recognized , and thefact is, tha t it is no t Canada which impo ses these export charges .

Mr. HILL . I wi ll get to that by and by .

Mr. HA LL . That comes in right now .

Mr. GA INES . Tha t is a part of th e bill I would like to fo llow .

Mr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. GA INES . W ha t is your reason for saying that ?Mr. HALL . I say th e re ason is tha t it is no t th e Canadian Govern

ment which impo ses these export charges and stands in the way of

our getting free wo o d from Crown lands , but it is th e provincia l laws .

And now,th e change that I want here is , on the twentie th page ,

after the words “shall have been impo sed ,

”t o interline this

Mr. GA INES . I’Vh ereab out s ?

HA LL . In th e sixth line on th e twentieth page . We could fixthis bill and have it right , I think . so that there would no t b e any

ambiguity or misleading construction p ossible . In th e Sixth line on

the twentieth page I wouc insert a fter th e word “ imposed ”th e

words,

“ by Canada or any Province thereof ,”and I. think just that

would accomplish it pretty much ,but I would put in th e seventh

line,aft er th e word “ used ,

th e words in th e U nited States .

”In

the ninth line,aga in ,

I woul dinsert th e words “in th e U nited States

”

after the word “ used . and then I w ould have a proviso in th e twelfthline

,and I think this should b e in no t only for th e pap er schedules ,

but in regard t o all these provisos tha t are in th e bill . I_

would insertafter the word duty

”

in th e twe lfth line on th e twenti eth page thewords subj ect t o t h e severa l forego ing provisos . Th ere are qui tea lot o f provisos in this bill .Mr. LO NGWO RTH . A fter what w ord ?Mr. HA LL . A fter th e word “ duty .

”

Mr. LONGWO RTH . Then y ou would put in wha t words ?Mr. HA LL .

“Subj ect t o th e severa l foregoing provisos .”

Mr. LO NGWORTH . Mav I ask vou a question a t tha t p omt ?Mr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. LO NGWORTH . If you will turn t o the treaty agreement , page 6 ,and look at the proviso on page 6, what , in your Opini on ,

would b e theeffect of incorpora ting tha t proviso in this bill ?

1 8 0 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr.HA LL .

I think to incorpora te it would he lp t o make pla in thatth e rea l intent was tha t on both sides there should b e abso lute freedom,

and tha t there should no t b e let in here free paper until we hadfree wood .

I think tha t would he lp us , be cause i t would make i t app arently more reciproca l than it i s now . It would make i t much

pla iner; because then the court would say ,

“Why Canada has seen toi t tha t this langua e is not ambi uous nor equ1voca l as t o them, andit is fa ir tha t the nit ed Sta tes s ould have j ust as good a construc

tion as they have secured .

”

Mr. HILL . Now,as far as we have go t W i th th e a reement , do

y ou agree tha t the language on page . 2 4 g ives t o the nit ed Sta testhe freedom of the marke t of Canada for everything up t o 4 centsa pound , wood pulp , er and ever thing , up t o 4 cents a pound ?Mr. MCCA LL . Mr. Hffi

,if y ou permit me t o interrupt there ,

be fore th e hearings began I rece ived a letter from Mr. Pepper, thecommi ssioner, asking that tha t b e stricken from the bill .Mr. HILL . Tha t is all right ; but Mr. P epper is no t go ing t o vo te

on this bill .Mr. MCCA LL . Y es ; b ut I w anted you t o understand tha t Mr.

P ep er asked tha t tha t b e stricken from th e bill .l . HILL . Mr. Pep er h as no t go t t o vo te on thi s .

Mr. LO NGW O RTH . Ie referred t o th e last clause of th e bill ?Mr. MCCA LL . Y es ; th e last clause of th e bill .Mr. FO RD NEY . Th e cha irman sa id th e o ther day that no amend

ment t o this bill could b e o ffered ormade in this committee .

Mr. HILL . Tha t is th e reason I want t o know wha t th e w itnessunderstands about th is .

Mr. MCCA LL . I doubt . Mr. Fordney,whether the cha irman meant

it in tha t sense .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Tha t is Wha t h e sa id .

Mr. MCCA LL . He meant if th e amendment contradicted th e termsof th e agreement . Now

,th e cha irman rece ived a letter from Mr.

Mr. Knox t o the effect tha t there is no tenta tive agreement betweenthis country and Canada in regard t o pulp and print paper, and hislettermust b e accepted as authorita tive upon tha t p omt ; so that itis o p en t o the committee ent irelv.

Mr. LO NGWO RTH . In o ther words,the amendment of one of these

pro visos would no t affe ct the agreement . In o ther words , these areno t an agreement ; but these are the contingencies upon which theagreement might b e arrived a t .

Mr. MCCA LL . Y e s . Se cre tary Knox sa y s this is a subject on whichthere is no agreement be twe en the commissioners of the two Government s .

Mr. GA INES . The chairman of the committee certainly did no t

me an that we could no t adopt an amendment to th e bill .Mr. FO RD NEY . He sa id tha t ; but I do no t believe him and do no t

now .

Mr. MCCA LL . I say I think he me ant tha t in a certa in sense ; thathe me ant taking the agreement so far as it was an agreement be tweenthe two co untries , if we made an amendment in the bill that was no tin line w ith that agre ement , it would destroy that ag reement andthrow th e ma tterb ack into nego tiation . That is entire ly serious

,that

part of it ; bu t on this p o int I unde rstand from th e Sta te Departmentthat the c ommissione rs of the tw o count rie s were no t in agreement .

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1 8 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr.HILL . Tha t it tre a ts Canada as a who le on pages 1 9 and 20?

Mr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. HILL . A nd tha t there i s no d i stui ct i on be tween one Provmceand ano ther

,no distinction be tween priva te ly owned lands and

public lands .

Mr. HA LL . We ll , I know tha t is th e way i t ought to b e , that la theway it was intended to b e , and I would fight for that constructi on ;but I should no t fee l a t all sure that I could carry i t . [Laughter.]Mr. P O U . If these amendments that you suggest are incorporated

in the bill and one of th e Provinces, we will assume,should de cline to

agree that the Crown land wood should b e admitted into this countryfree , would no t the who le tre aty fail , then ?Mr. HA LL . It would no t fa il ; it would de lay the admission of free

paper until that was taken off,and it would no t de lay the operation

of the bill .0

Mr. PO U . The language y ou have put in here , do es i t no t put i t upt o th e severa l Provinces ?

0

Mr. HA LL . It do es put it up t o th e severa l Provmces, y es ; and that

is where it be longs , to o : but i t would no t de lay th e genera l opera tionof the bill a minute . It would de lay th e importa tion of paper freeuntil th e Provinces took off these charges .

Mr. HILL . A s a who le , off all th e items ? No t only paper, butthese two clauses would no t go into opera tion a t all unti l tha t wasdone , would they ,

under your construction of th e languageMr. HA LL . Tha t is so , and tha t is wha t th e Canadian commis

sioners ex ect ed the effe ct t o b e .

Mr. MC A LL . Wha t do I understand you t o say ?Mr. HA LL . Th e Canadian commissioners contem la ted tha t there

would no t b e any free paper brought in here until t e export chargeswere taken off in all the Provinces .

Mr. HILL . How do y ou know tha t ?Mr. HA LL . Because the correspondence indi ca tes it ; tha t is ,

thatthey suppo sed th at the American Government w as smart enoughto see t o it tha t tha t w a s made th e act

, to o . I do no t know wh e theror no t you have seen th e Canadian bill . They do no t have anydoubt in the irs . They fi x it so tha t the do no t have any of theseconditions o ffered a t all

, you know . W y,they a re go ing to have

free.

imp ort a t ion—exporta tion here—of paper. W e are go ing torece ive that w ith 0 en arms . They contempla te tha t , and th ev dono t a llude t o any 0 these things tha t be long t o us t o take care

‘

oftha t is , these export duties from the Provinces .

Mr. HILL . Have you a copy of tha t bill there'

2

Mr. HA LL . I have . Here it is . And now wha t is the re ason

gentlemen,we should no t put in just these little verba l corrections ?

They are no t amendments ; they are the corre ctions th at I shouldthink any commi ttee would insist upon making in order to havelanguage pla in,

and to have it carry a me aning so tha t we wi ll nothave to go t o

.

the courts and will no t have a row and fuss and con

tenti on.

and li tiga ti on over what ought t o b e pla in ; and just a fewwords inserted there would make this plain

,and would accomplish

fai r-Iplay,i f we are go ing to have a re ciprocity agreement .

1\ r. LONGWORTH . Wha t do you want to insert ?Mr. HA LL . I want to put in

,in the twentie th line

Mr. LONGWORTH . I me an, what is vour obj ect ?

RECIPROCITY W ITH CANA DA . 1 8 3

Mr. HA LL . My object is t o a ccomp lish that there shall not b e freeaper here until we have free woo l , no t only from pri vate lands butfrom the Crown lands of Canada . That is what I want to ge t , and t ohave that assured , too .

Mr. LONGWORTH . In o ther words,do you want th e present duties

against print paper imported from Canada to remain until everyProvince of Canada has removed all restrictions on the importationofWood ?Mr. HA LL . Y es ; I do .

Mr. LO NGWORTH . A gainst the export of pulp wood into thiscountryMr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. LONGWORTH . That is it .

Mr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. LONGWO RTH . Now, you fear tha t under this bill as it stands,immedia tely upon its taking effe ct

,print paper could b e imported

into thi s country free of duty from any Provmce which imposes norestriction,

is that it ?Mr. H ALI Y es ; or from those which do .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Or from tho se which do impose restriction,if

that print paper is made from wo o d cut from private lands ?HA LL . Y es .

Mr. LONGWORTH . A nd , on th e contrary,the Canad ian duties on

print paper imported into Canada from this country should all

rema irl

n until the last. Province o f Canada had removed those restric

tionsMr. HA LL . Y es .

Mr. LONGWORTH . That is it ?Mr. HA LL . Y es ; it is .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Y ou would no t obj ect to this treaty if i t wasmade clear that the print paper should no t go onto the free lis t inthis country until Canada h ad removed all restrictions ?Mr. HA LL . Well

, yes ; I should b e obliged to obj ect still ; and I do .

All the papermanufacturers in th e country—we have sort of put ourheads together, you know—we all fee l obliged to oppose it afterit is made clear

,and just as good as it can b e

, because this grea tindustry we think can not stand an equa l chance as aga inst Canadaafter the duties are taken off

,and it is no t a great duty that we have

now,and we think that it ou ht t o stand .

Mr. FORD NEY . If it should ecome a law, you would like to see it

amended so that some of th e sting might b e taken out ?

Mr. HA LL . Y es . Well , now ,I do no t intend to talk on the genera l

proposition,because it was thrashed out in 1909 , and the paperman

ufacturers stand just as they did then,and I think tha t they are

sincere in their feelin that these lines would b e hard . It wouldmake it ambiguous an throw it right over so that they could send infreedpa

per here and no t have tho se export charges on Crown land

woo removed . That is no t a fa ir game , anyway, and i t would b etoo b ad

,and it would b e too b ad for this committee , I think . I do

not knowwhat a committee is forunless it is to get themeasure correct,anyway

, when it is sent a long . Wha t is the reference to the commit tee for unless they have tha t liberty and obligation ?Now

,I amjust going to state aga in ,

if I may ,what I think i s the

practicable thing , as some members of the committee may have come

1 8 4 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

in since I stated it before . My suggestion would b e that on the

twentieth page you should interline on th e Six th line , after the word“ imposed ,

”th e words “ by Canada or any Provmce thereo f. Then

in th e seventh line , a fter th e word“ used

,put in th e words in the

U nited States ,”

and insert a fter th e word“used

.

”in th e ninth line,

also th e words in th e U nited Sta tes ; and then in th e twelfth l ine,on pag e 20, after th e word

“ duty,

” put in the words “sub j ect to the

several forego ing roviso s .

0 0

Mr. MCCA LL . r. Ha ll,if y ou ut in a fter the word imp o s

.

dthe langua g e you have suggeste by Canada or any Provmcethereo f ,

”

W i ere y ou are describing wo od used in the U ni ted States,might it no t b e he ld tha t you were putt

ing a restricti on on the exportat i on of wood , and that it would have t o b e shown tha t i t was to b eused in th e U nited States ?

Mr.HA LL .

Your suggestion there I think is very good , and may b e

of va lue . If after the word “ imposed”

we put “ by Canada or anyProvince. thereof

,

”and then put in the twe lfth line sub j ect t o these

pro visos,I think that is important in order t o have the act go into

effect .

Mr. PO U . Where do you want these provisions ut,in line 1 2 ?

Mr. HA LL . A ft er th e w o rd “ duty ”

in the twe l th line .

Mr. PO U . Wh a t do y o u w ant put there ?Mr. HA LL . Subject t o th e forego ing pro visos . There are o thers

re lating no t to p a er matters .

Mr. MCCA LL . Tfi ere is some thing about se a l , herring , wha le , and

fi sh o il ?

Mr. HA LL . Y es ; I think so .

Mr. HILL . D o y ou. think t he language of this Canadian bill ab solute ly contem i la t es complete reciprocity on paper and wo od ?Mr. HA LL . YMr. HILL . Then why no t use th e same language as th e y use , so

that it would read , a fter sta ting th e articles :

P rovided, That such wood pulp , pap er, or b oard , b e ing th e p roduc ts of th e U nitedStates , shall only b e admitted free of duty into Canada from th e U n ited Sta te s whensuch wood pulp , pap er, or b oard , b e ing th e products of Canada ,

are admitted from all

p arts of Canada free of duty into th e U n ited States .

Mr. HA LL . Beca use th e correspondence do es show,and they say

right out in th e correspondence,

“Why , Canada h as nothing t o dowi th thi s export charg e a t all. Tha t is a ma tter for th e severalP

fiovinces .

”A nd having given us that warning , w e have go t t o put

17 a t in .

Mr. GA INES . Mr. McCall, there is no rec iproc itv in tha t fe ature .

Was there intended t o b e ? [L aughter.]Mr. MCCA LL . I would no t like t o express an opinion 11 on that

po int , and you have a very a cute mind, and y o u have read t e corre

spondence , and you can form your own opinion .

Mr. GA INES . I have such a pro found regard for the capa city as

well a s th e persona l acumen of the author of the bill,tha t I would

substi tute h i s j udgment even formy own .

Mr. MCCA LL . It may b e tha t th e puta tive author is no t entitledto th e cred i t fo r all tha t is in the bill .Mr. LONGWORTH . Mr. Hall says tha t in the correspondence it is

evident tha t i t was no t th e intention of th e Canadian Governmentto de la the opera tion of the free list

,here . Wha t was vour state

ment t ere ?

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1 8 6 RECIPBOCITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Mr.HA STINGS . That is on page 63 . Mr. Hill was wondering how

it was that we could send paper into Canada .

Mr. HILL . Y es .

Mr.HA STINGS . It is p aper that Canada , a t the present moment,

does no t manufacture ; i t i s the finer grades of paper.

I desire to appe ar be fore thi s commi ttee representing the manufac

turers of p a er of the U nited States , of all grades of paper,and all

grades of pu p . We view this pro osed oor so - called re cipro ci tywi thgrea t a larm,

as manufacturers . hi le i t i s true.

we do no t beli evethat for a few—possibly two or three—years it W i ll make very

.

muchdifference , w ith certain grades of paper

,be cause Canada Will not

manufacture those grades , ye t every ton of aper tha t Canada doesbring or send in here

,of any grade , will disp ace some paper of some

qu ality,because th e country absorbs j ust so many tons in a ye ar

, or

so much from Canada,and there wi ll b e a change of manufacturing

go ing on in thi s country which w ill b e ruinous to many mills which are

now running .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Would that reduce th e price ?Mr. HA STINGS . Would it reduce the priceMr. RA ND ELL . Y es .

Mr. HA STINGS . We ll,the probabilities are tha t it would

,and very

seriously .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Th en‘

the ship ing of p a er t o England a t aboutcost pri ce , a t a much less price tfi an it is so

lid for here , does not thatra ise th e price of paperMr. HA STINGS . Shipping paper t o England ?Mr. RA ND ELL . Y es .

Mr. HA STINGS . I made some inquiries,a fter th e statement I made

yesterday , from a gentleman wh o does the exporting and he saysup to thi s time they have se cured rea lly a better price for paper theyhave exported , on the average , than they have for the same p a er

in this country , due possibly to good quali ty and due t o the fact t at

a great dea l of tha t exporta tion has gone t o southern countries,wh

eire they have had th e trade . Gradua lly Canada is ge tting that

tra e .

Mr. RA ND ELL . If y ou can compete in those markets , why can you

no t ho ld your own in thi s country without keeping th e price up on

these people ?Mr. HA STINGS . We can compete in this country o ften by reason

of lo cation .

Mr. RA N D ELL . In England is your trade increasing or no t ?Mr. HA STINGS . No

,no t as a who le .

Mr. R A ND ELL . Wha t do y ou mean b y“no t a s a who le " ?

Mr. HA ST INGS . It is de cre asing now .

Mr. RA ND ELL . D o the statistics show tha t th e amount of exportation h as been increa s ing constantly for 10 or 1 2 y ears ?Mr. HA STINGS . It will g o down rap idly from now on

,in England .

Mr. RA N D ELL . Why ?Mr. HA STINGS . Be c ause Canada is making a very much betteraper than she e ve r did befo re , and much of our- trade there h as beenbe caus e. of th e e xc e llence of our p aper as compared with that fromNorway and Swede n .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Then your fear of th e taking down of this tariffWa ll is a fear of wha t is go ing t o take place instead of a fear ofwhathas been in th e past ?

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CANA D A . 1 8 7

i Mr. HA STINGS . Y es .

Mr. RA ND ELL . That is , it has been unnecessary in the past and hashad a tendency t o put up th e price in this country under normalconditions ?Mr. HA STINGS . No , sir. U nder the $6 tariff under the McKinley

bill a er was so ld cheaper than ever before .

fi . A ND ELL . Then reducin the tariff did no t reduce the price ?Mr. HA STINGS . Not necessarify .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Is not that purely and simply for the reason thatboth tariffs , bo th th e $6 tariff and th e one tha t averages , as you say ,

are prohibitive ?Mr. HA STINGS . No t at all. They are not

,because you are getting

into this country t o - day every pound of paper that Canada h as overand above h er own use

,so that it is not prohibitive .

Mr. RA N D ELL . The exportation from Canada all comes to thiscountry , then ?Mr.HA STINGS . Practically all ; it is hermarket . They are coming in .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Does that paper go to En land ?Mr. HA STINGS . Very little . Some of it oes

,and h as been go ing

there .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Do es no t tha t Show that Canada is compe ting withyou simply in places where it is more convenient

,and that sh e really

cannot compe te with you in England and o ther countries ?Mr. HA STINGS . They have competed w ith us there , and are doing

so . But youmust remember, Mr. R andell , that paper, like any o thercommodity , seeks the market in which it can b e sold be st , and thatthe supply and demand of the wo rld is what affe cts the marke t s andthe market conditions .

Mr.T’

A ND ELL . A nd proximity cuts some fi gure ?Mr. HA STINGS . And proximity .

Mr. RA ND ELL . And transporta tion ?Mr. HA STINGS . Y es

,certa in ly .

Mr. RA ND ELL . And all th e paper tha t Canada can export comesinto th e U nited Sta tes because the amount is so sma ll tha t it can b eabsorbed in th e places tha t are mo st convenient ; and thereforeCanada can no t compete in England , e ither.

Mr. HA STINGS . No ; you do no t understand th e conditions of the

business . Very o ften the contracts are made for a y ear or 1 8 months ,and she might compete and sell all to this market

,and then b e out

of the market entirely .

Mr. RAND ELL . If you can no t compete under genera l marketconditions w ith Canada

, you certa inly could not in England ; I thinkI understand tha t .

Mr. HA STINGS . I do no t think tha t a t all.

Mr. RA ND ELL . I can understand how there would b e certain placesin the U nited States tha t might absorb , say , tons ; I be lievethat is abou t th e amount that is ship ed ?Mr. HA STINGS . No ; you are mistaken as to our figures . There

is not tons made in bo th th e U nited i tates and Canada .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Two million tons ?Mr. HA STINGS . I do no t know to wha t you are referring .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Mr. Hill gave the figures .

Mr. HA STINGS . Canada exported about tons last ye ar, at

that ratio .

1 8 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. RA ND ELL . Tha t is , into this coun try ?Mr.HA STINGS .

Into this country . Now ,she exports , a ltoge ther—f

Mr. RA ND ELL . Canada exported tons , or is that themanufacture in Canada ,

a ltoge ther ?Mr.HA STINGS . I do no t know wha t that i s . That i s

.

no t paperMr. RA ND ELL . Wha t is th e to ta l manufa ctured in thi s country ?

Mr.HA STINGS . In this country ,

of all kinds of paper, th e total isabout tons , and of news paper the to tal is aboutpounds. Canada makes , a ltoge ther, about tons, ofwhi ch sheexports to this country , or t o some country , about tons.

S eaking as to what - th e price would b e , I wish to state that I havew at purports to b e a co py ma iled January 24 from the o ffice of theAmeri can News aper Publishers

’

A sso cia ti on , t o all members of thatasso ciation. mar ed

“Confidentia l ,

”which re ads as fo llows :

For your confidential informa ti on ,I take p leasure in advising you tha t th e negotia

tions of th e U ni ted Sta tesGovernment wi th Canada provi de for the admissi on of printpap er and wood pulp free of duty wh en ma de from wood cut on pri va te lands orfreefrom restrictions of exporta tion .

Ifratified b y Congress, th is arrangemen t w i ll Immed i a tely and automa tically Insurea full sup ply of print pap er free of duty , and will exert pressure upon provincialauthori ties, wh ich will ultima te ly force th em to remove th e ir restric tions on ex ortation of pulp wood . Th e advance thus farmade is a matter formutual congra tu ationamong memb ersof th e associa tion .

Y ours , fai thfully , [HERMA N BID D ER, Premdent.

Y ou w ill no te the da te of tha t is January 24,whi le no manufac

turer of news aper or any kind of paper that I know of was in anyway consultedp as t o wha t th e effect would b e of a bill that wasentered on the 26th . Now

,as I understand it

,we are all manu

facturers and we are interested in this bill as such , and yet the peopleto whom the benefits are to a ccrue have inside information .

I do not care to extend my remarks here in a genera l way , exceptto say that in my estima tion this bill as proposed is the greatestblow that was ever aimed a t an industry in the U ni ted States

,and

it is not fair and it is no t proper. If we are going on to a freetrade basis for everythi ng , all right ; we will take our chances , aswe have to , and as we may have t o in the next year; but to pickthis one industry out of the thousands in this country and treatus differently from what you do o ther industries is no t a fa ir deal,under any circumstances , and I want to go on record t o that effect.As I say , I do no t care to take th e time of the commi ttee . Thereare o ther gentlemen here wh o want t o b e heard . If there are anyquestions to b e asked , I sha ll b e g lad to answer them

,b ut as to the

e ffect of this , I want to b e on record .

Mr. FO RD NEY . I did no t know until just now that. the Provinceo f Quebec h ad put an embargo on w o o d .

Mr. HA ST INGS . That is w ithin one o r two months .

Mr. FO RD NEY . I did no t know until now that Quebec had put on an

embargo ,but that is true

,t o o ?

Mr. HA STINGS . Y e

Mr. FO RD NEY . So tha t there is from no Province in Canada today any freedom of transporta t io n o f wo od from Canada into this

fou

gtry for th e making of pulp ,

is (here, except from the deeded

an S ?

Mr. HA STINGS . New Brunswick is open , unles s there has beensome chang e very recent ly . It a lwa y s h as been.

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1 90 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

print paper and pulp ormade the importa tion enti re ly free.

A s you

gentlemen of th e committee undoubtedly know, Quebe c i ssued an

order in council ne arly a ye ar ago prohibi ting the exportati on ofwoodcut from Crown lands , thus following th e example se t by

.

Ontariosome thing over 1 1 years ago , and the bill now under considerationg ives us no re lief from the prohibition . Undoubtedly a lso you knowtha t on all pulp wood cut from Canadi an pri va te ly owned landsthere is not now ,

nor has there ever been , any re stri ct i on of any kindor character upon the exportation to thi s country .

Congressman Mann in a recent interview sa id tha t i f the bill underconsidera tion becomes a law Canadian paper and pulp made fromwood cut from priva tely owned lands W i ll immedia te ly b e admi ttedinto this countr free .

Mr. Herman Bidder, president of the American News Publishers’

A ssociation ,in a confidentia l le tter, da ted January 2 4 , addressed to

members of his association two days before the trade agreement wassubmitted t o th e Congress by the President , and in a confidentialle tter of January 2 7

,expresses th e same opin ion .

If th e construction put upon th e proposed b i ll by Messrs . Mann andR idder is correct and th e bill becomes a law

,no t only will we not

increase th e Canadian pulp wood supply ava ilable t o us but we willfurtherrestrict it . For sure ly

,to secure admission of their paper and

pulp products into thi s country free of duty, th e Canadian manufac

turers may b e trusted to make all of such products out of wood cutfrom privately owned lands

,and competition with us for such wood

wi ll undoubtedly deprive us of that source of sup ly to th e extent oftheir re uirement s

,which in a compara tively s ort time will un

doubted y absorb th e entire supply .

D uring th e last yearourmanufa cturers received fromCanada ofwoodcut from private ly owned lands between and cords ,t o which extent our ava ilable supply will undoubtedly b e curta iledvery promptly , thus forcing us t o have re course t o our own forestsfor our entire requirements , and th e natura l result is a quicker devast at ion of them and t h e gradua l transference of th e industry to Canada .

Ours is th e only industry th e manufacture of whose productfurnishes employment to a grea t dea l of labor (and th e like of whoseproduct is manufactured extensive ly in Canada ) singled out for thefree and unrestricted competition of Canada .

Wh en th e present law was under considera tion two years ago thep ap er

o

manufacturers proved conclusive ly ,no t only by reasonof the

materi a lly greater cost of wood and labor but because of th e admisS i on into Canada free of duty of a number of articles American manufacturers are obliged t o use and import upon which they p ay a consi derab le duty , as p er schedule hereto appended ; that th e differencein cost ofmanufacture in this country and in Canada of the severalgrades affected by the bill under considera tion W as and is higher thanth e present rates of duty . In spite of such duties

,during the fiscal

year ended June 30, 1 9 10, there was an increase in th e importationof Canadi an paper into this country of over 2 4 0 p er cent .

My conclusi on is, first , that our industry is entitled to protect ion

t o th e extent of the di fference in cost of manufacture here and inCanada , and the present rates of duty are

, in fa ct , no t h igh enought o afford us tha t ; and , secondly , the present bill contains no elemento f reciproci ty . It proposes to admit Canadian paper and pulp free

REC IPROCITY W ITH CAN AD A . 1 9 1

without ving us in return Canadian pulp wood,which unquestion

ably wou d result , as hereto fore sta ted,in the gradual transference

of the industry from thi s country t o Canada .

(The fo llowing table submitted by Mr. Barrett is here printed infull as fo llows :)

“ 9 3 9m“ [Sigigg Amount of duty intoA rt i cles . tari

gétem Amount of dut y into Canada . tariff item U nited States.

No .

Chine clay 295 Free 90 p er ton.

Chloride of lime 208 do 8 $4 p er ton; 1} cent p er

cund .

Feltings 567 Great Britain , 30 p er cent ;p

others , 35 p er cent .A lum 212 Great Britain , Iree ; others , 4 cents p er p ound .

10per cent.Copper

-wire cloth 4 18 Great Bri tain , p er cent ; 199 45 p ercent .France , 225 p er cent ; others , 25 p er cent

A niline dyes . 203 Free 15 30p er cent .U ltramarine . 240 do 50 3 cents p er pound .

In this schedule there are a few things t o b e no ted . One company,

for instance , in this country manufa cturing book paper uses a t leastworth a ye ar of china cla y . Th e duty on that is a t on

into the U nited States . It go es into Canada free . Th e duty on

chloride of lime , used in bleaching ,is $4 a t on into th e U nited Sta tes ,

and it goes into Canada free , and so on .

Mr. Sensenbrenner wished me to express his regrets that h e couldno t address th e commi t tee further t o—day and answer questions tha tmight b e asked .

It seems t o me tha t in this discussion I have heard practica lly onlythe words “ print paper. I am no t a print - paper manufacturer.

We manufacture th e higher grades of p aper, manila paper ; we manufacture sulphite ; w e manufa cture o ther grades ; and th e bo ok papermen

,who could b e betterrepresented , of course , byMr. Sensenbrenner,

as he is a manufacturer of that qua lity of paper, have something of aninterest in thi s bill . Wrapping paper and bo ok paper have h eretofore had a duty of 3 5 p er cent from all countries . Tha t amounts t o

t o $2 8 p er t on . A s we re ad thi s bill , without any discussion ,

without any reference t o previ ous arguments made a year or so ago ,and the data co llected

,tha t duty is abso lute ly wiped off. D uring the

last two or three years th e manufacture of th e so—ca lled craft paper,which is a peculiarly strong papermade by a rather di ffi cult process ,has sprung up in Norway and Sweden . That paper h as come intothis market and h as sup erseded th e ordinary wrapp ing paper to

quite an extent . A ttempts are be ing made t o manufacture It in thi scountry . It is a diffi cult thing t o get a t , and requires a plant di fferentfrom what anybody h as , but slowly we will get into operati on and

manufacture tha t paper. To - day mills are being built in Canada t omanufacture tha t paper, which will come in compe ti ti on , as i t has no

duty on it .

Mr. Fordney asked the questionMr. U ND ERW O O D . Let me ask you a question , there . D o you say

that this particular kind of paper is made in Sweden ?Mr. BA RRETT . In Norway and Sweden .

1 9 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. U ND ERwo on . It h as no duty coming into this country ?

Mr.BA RRETT . Y es ; 1 say tha t it h as . It h as a duty of practi cally

$2 8 a ton ; but it is a light , thin paper, and th e area of th e paper isso much greater than tha t of any aper of th e same we ight manufactured in this country of equiva ent strength, tha t when a manbuys a t on of it and pays th e

_price for i t

,h e h as a grea t deal more

pa p er t o wrap up h is articles in .

0

Mr. U ND ERWO O D . How many of those mi lls are they buddi ng in

Canada to make tha t paper ?Mr.

BA RRETT . There are two of them in Canada—one a t L a touche ,and ano ther is being constructed a t Three R ivers .

Mr. U ND ERWO O D . Is there any re a son why th e Ameri can manufacturer can no t build mills here on th e same basis as they are beingbuilt on in Canada ?Mr. BA RRETT . So far as I know there is only one be ing built in

Wisconsin and ano ther in Michigan . Here tofore , u t o date , thereh as been no way of taking care of th e very intense ly isagreeab le odorfrom those mills . In Michigan they cla im tha t they have go tten rid

of that pretty w ell . U p there in Canada , take it a t La touche , y oudo no t need to worry about odors . It is t oo much in th e w ilderness .

Y ou ro b a b ly could no t build a mill tha t is opera ted as th e Norwe ianand Scandinavian mills are opera ted in our northern country . hat

w ill b e taken care of in time . But why should we build any mill thatis go ing to use wo o d when we can no t get wood from Canada and we

are threa tened w ith free paper ?Mr. U N D ERWO O D . I was mere ly asking you about your argument so

far as this Norwegi an and Swedi sh paper is concerned , and this newpro cess . There is no reason why anyone Should ex set tha t theAmerican manufacturer Should no t keep abreast of t e times, andwhen modern improvements are made

,take advantage of them

as anyone e lse does .

Mr. BA RRETT . He Should . He is trying t o take advantage ofthis now and construct new plants .

Mr. RA N D ELL . D o they use a different sort of wo od in makingthis new kind of aper ?Mr. BA RRETT . hey use various kinds of wood ; the same as you

use in making ordina sulphi te paper.

B

ulr. U ND ERWO O D . ould the raw ma teria l b e the same for either

miMr. BA RRETT . Pra ctically .

Mr. U N D ERW O O D . Then this new mill is mere ly an advance in theprocess ofmanufacture ?Mr. BA RRETT . Mere ly an advance in th e process of manufacture ,

Slowly be ing adopted in this country . But there h as been abso lutelyno encouragement to an American manufacturer to manufacturetha t pulp and tha t paper, when in the face of th is duty

,even

,that

paper can b e brought over here , and h e can no t make h is own paperou t of his own product with h is present machinery to compe te withit . In o ther words , even tha t $2 8 a ton du ty is no t a pro tectionaga inst tha t No rwegian paper.

Mr. U ND ERWO O D . Then the only way the manufacturers of thiscou ld compe te. would b e t o adopt the new me thods them

se Y

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1 9 4 REC i P RoCITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr.

BA RRETT . The average w ages pa id to a man in th e mills , inmo s t o f th e mills in New York S ta te and in Ma ine , for common laboris fo r nine hours

’

work .

Mr. U ND ERWO O D . O f c o urse ,I can no t fo llow y o u on tha t . If y ou

have th e figures will y o u give me th e amo unt of labor p er uni t of valuetha t go es into a ton o f paper

'

6 Have y ou those fi gures‘

6

Mr.BA RR ETT . No ; I h ave no t th o s e figure s ; I h ave no t go t them

here .But right in our o ffice , for pre t t y ne arly one mon th ,

was si ttingthe Tariff Commission . We turned our o ffi ce inside out and sent oura ccountant up t o ourmills with tho se men

,and I am info rmed that not

a single report has come out from tha t Tariff ('

omni i ss10n in connection w ith thi s propo sed bill as to th e facts of the manufacturer. Not

th e fa cts tha t th e manufacturers may state , b u t th e actual fa cts as

shown by the ir opera tions for a term of ye ars,are unknown to this

committee or t o Congre ss . They are ap p arentlv unknown t o any

body, ye t .

Mr. U ND ERWO O D . A s I understand , in th e Mann report,which y ou

are familiar w ith , they state that difference in th e cost of wages in

this country and in Canada in th e product ion of paper t o b e merelynomina l ; they say tha t the co st is p ra c t ically th e same .

Mr. BA RRETT . I do no t remember. Mr. Hastings suggests that itis about 352 .

Mr. HA STINGS . A bout $52 ,th e

. report says .

Mr. U ND ERWO O D . Then th e labor cost,added to th e wood cost

,if

tha t Mann report is correct,would make only difference

between th e cost of production here and in Canada on labor and raw

ma terial,and you cla im tha t you can no t compe te w ith a $2 8 tariff.

Where do es tha t come in

Mr. BA RRETT . Th e figures Mr. Hastings spoke of here were for

labor on news papers . They are no t craft papers or high—gradewrapping papers . Is tha t correct ?Mr. HA STINGS . Y es ; tha t is correct .

Mr. BA RRETT . News paper can b e run on machines that w ill g ive50 tons a day ,

and th e same quantity of craft paper on tha t samemachine would no t b e more th an 2 7 t o 30 tons o f the same size .

Mr. HA STINGS . It would no t b e tha t .

Mr. BA RRETT . It would no t b e tha t . Some o f these “'

a tertown

people have tried tha t , so tha t the y know .

Mr. HILL . Mr. U nderwood ,do you w ant to inquire. further ?

Mr. U ND ERW O O D . No,s ir.

Mr. HILL . D o es any o ther gen tleman want to b e heard ? If no t ,there w ill b e no he aring this a fternoon on this or any o ther subj ect .

D o y ou w ish to pro ceed further, Mr. Barre t t .

Mr. BA RRETT . Jus t to answ er one que s tion which I th ink Mr.

Fordney asked . There w as a sta tement made a t th e recent conserva tion congre ss a t Quebec which ind ica ted tha t th ere were about

a cres o f freeho ld and se ignio ry lands . Three p aper com

p/Ianies in Canada own more than tha t in Cro wn land . I thinkr. Hastings

’

s s ta temen t of, I think it was , one one - hundredth ,or

1 p er cen t , would pro bably c o ver th e amoun t , as compared with thefores t area of Quebe c .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . I understand tha t the s e g entlemen do no t wantto b e heard further, and in connection w ith th e hearing to -morrow

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 1 9 5

morning , I understand tha t th e New York malst ers were to b e heard,

and I rece ived from a representa tive of tho se interests a brief whichis directed to th e chairman o f th e committee

,and I would ask unani

mous consen t tha t this brief b e printed in th e re cord,and these

gentlemen would then w a ive the ir request for a hearing .

Mr. HILL . If there is no objec tion , the brie f will b e printed In the

record . D o e s any one know of anybo dy wh o de sires t o b e heardto—morrow morning on any subj ec t ? I understand that o ther gentlemen do desire to b e he ard on o ther subj ec ts t o—morrow morning , sothat the committee will stand adj ourned until t o—morrow morningat

(A t 12 o’clo ck no on th e committe e adj ourned until to - morrow

,

Wednesday ,February 8 , a t a . m. )

The Canadian bill is he re printed in full from the copy pre sentedby Mr. Hall , as fo llows :

[House of Commons. J anuary 26,

Mr. Fielding—In Committee of Ways and Means

Resolved, That i t is exp edient to amend th e customs tariff,1907

,and to provide as

follows :

1 . That th e article s th e growth , product , or manufacture of the U ni ted Statesspecified in sch edule A shall b e admi tted into Canada free of dutvwh en imp orted fromthe U ni ted Stat es .

2 . That the articles th e growth , produc t , or manufacture of th e U nited Statesspecified in sch edules B and D sh all b e admi tted into Canada up on payment of th erates of duty sp ecified in th e sa id sch edules wh en imp orted from th e U ni ted States .

That the advantages h ereb y granted to th e U ni ted States shall extend to any and

every other fore ign p owerwh ich may b e enti tled th ere to , under th e provisions of anytreaty or convention wi th His Majesty .

That th e advantages h ere b y granted t o th e U ni ted Sta tes sh all extend to th e U ni tedKingdom and th e several Bri tish colonies and p ossessions wi th resp ect to th e ir commerce wi th Canada . Provided ,

h owever,tha t noth ing h ere in contained Shall b e

held to increase any rate of duty now provided for in th e Bri tish preferential tari ff.

That it is exp edient to provide tha t th e act pro osed to b e founded on th e fore

going resolutions sh all not come into op eration unti a da te to b e named b y th e governor in council in a proclamation t o b e pub lish ed in th e Canada Gaze tte ,

and th atsuch proclamation may b e issued wh enever i t ap p ears to th e satisfaction of th e gov

ernor in council that th e U nited States Congress has enacted or will forthwith enactsuch legislation as wi ll grant to Canada th e rec iprocal advantages provided for in cer

tain corresp ondence da ted Wash ington ,J anuary 21 , 19 1 1 , b e tween th e Hon . P . C .

Knox, Secretary of State for th e U ni ted States , and th e Hon . W . S . Fielding , mini ster

offinance of Canada,and th e Hon . William Pa tterson ,

minister of customs of Canada .

SCHED U LE A .

—A RTICLES FREE OF D U TY .

Live animals, viz , ca ttle,h orses and mules, swine , sh e ep , lamb s , and all oth eI

live animals .

Poultry , dead or alive .

Wh eat,rye , oats , b arley , and b uckwh ea t ; dried p eas and b eans , ed ib le .

Corn, sweet corn , orma ize (excep t for d isti lla tion ) .

Hay , straw ,and cowp eas .

Fresh vege tab les, viz , p o ta toes , swee t p otatoes, yams , turnip s , oni ons , cab b ages,and all oth er vegetab les in th e ir natural sta te .

Q

Fresh fruits,viz

,ap p les , p ears , p each es, grap es , b erries , and all oth er ed i b le frui ts

in th eir na tural state .

D ried frui ts, v iz,ap p les, p each es , p ears , and apricots, dried , desi cca ted , or

evaporated .

1 96 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

D airy products

,viz , b utter, ch eese , and fresh milk and cream. Provided that

cans actually used in th e transp ortation o fmilk or cream may.

b e. p assed b ack and

forth b e tween th e two countries fre e of duty , under such regulati ons as th e resp ectiveGovernments may p l‘t 'sc rllnEggs of b arnyard fow l, in

th e sh ell.

Honey .

Cotton- seed oil.1 1

Seeds , viz , flaxseed or linseed ,c o tton - se ed ,

and o th erO i l seeds ; grass seed ,includin

timothy and clover seed ; garden ,field

,and o th er seed not

‘

h ere inoth erwise providefor, when in p ackages we igh ing over one p ound

.

e ach (no t includ i ng flower seeds ) .Fish of all kinds, fresh , frozen , packed in i ce , salted or preserved in any form,

except sardines and o th er fi sh preserved in oil ; and sh ell fi sh of all kinds, including

oysters, lob sters and clams in any sta te , fresh or packed , and coverings of the fore

gow g .

Seal, herring , whale , and o th er fi sh includ ing cod 011.

Salt .Mineral wa ters , na tural, no t in b o ttles or jugs .

Timb er, h ewn,sided or squared o th erwi se th an b y sawing , and round timb erused

for spars or in b uilding wharves .

Sawed b oards, p lanks, deals and o th er lumb er, not furth er manufac tured thansawed .

Paving posts , railroad ti es , and teleph one , trolley , electric ligh t and telegraphpoles of ceda ror oth erwoods .

Wooden staves of all kinds , no t furth er manufac tured than li sted or jointed, andstave b olts .

Picke ts and p alings .

Plaster rock or gypsum, crude , not ground .

Mica , unmanufac tured or rough trimmed only ,and mica ground or b olted .

Feldspar, crude , p owdered or ground .

A sb estos not furth ermanufac tured th an ground .

Flourspar, crude , not ground .

G1 ceri ne , crude , not purified .

Ta c , ground , b olted orprecip ita ted , na turally or artificially ,not for toilet use .

Sulphate of soda , or salt cake ; and soda ash .

Extracts of h emlock b ark.

Carb on electrodes .

Brass in b ars and rode , in coil or o therwise ,not less th an 6 fee t in length , or brass

in strips , sh eets or plates , not p olish ed , p lanish ed or coated .

Cream sep arators of every descrip tion ,and p arts th ereof imp orted for repair of

the foregoing .

Rolled iron or steel sh ee ts , or p lates No . 14 gauge or th inner, galvani zed or

coated with zinc ,tin , or oth erme tal, ornot .

Crucib le cast steel W ire , valued at not less th an 6 cents p er pound .

Galvani zed iron or steel wire , curved or not,Nos . 9

,1 2 . and 13 wire gauge .

Tygiecasting and typ ese tti ng mach ines and parts th ereof, adap ted for use in print

i a o ces .

Ca

kb ed fencing wire of iron or steel

, galvani zed or not .

0 e .

Round ro lled wire rods in th e coil, of iron or steel ; no t over three - eigh ts of an inchin d iameter, and not smaller than No . 6 wire gauge .

Pulp of wood mech anically ground ; pulp of wood, ch emical. b leach ed , or un

b leach ed ; news(Prin

tpap er, and oth er pap er, and p ap er b oard , manufac tured from

mechanical woo pulp.

orfrom ch emica l wood pulp , or ofwh ich such pulp is the comp onent materi al of ch i ef value , colored in th e pulp , or no t colored . and valued atno t more than 4 cents p er p ound ,

no t includ ing p rinted ordecora ted wall paper.

P rovided, That such wood pulp , p ap er, or b oard . b e ing th e roducts of the U nitedSta tes , shall only b e admitted fre e of duty into (

“

anada from tlie U nited Sta tes whensuch wood pulp , pap er, or b oard , b e ing th e p roduc ts of Canada . are admi tted fromallparts of Canada free of duty into th e U ni ted S ta te s .

NOTE .

—Flsh 011, whale o il. seal o il, and fi sh of all kinds , b eing th e products offish eries carried on b y the fish ermen of th e U ni ted S t

Canada as the product of the U nited Sta tes .

ci tes shall b e admi tted into

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1 9 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CANA D A .

SCHED U LE B .—A nT10LEs SU BJECT To THE U NDER-MENTIONED RArEs or Burr—Continued .

A rticles. R at es of duties.

Plate glass , not b eveled , in sheets orp anes exceed ing 7 square feet each , and 25 p er cent ad valorem.

not exceeding 25 square feet each .

Motorveh icles other th an forrailways and tramways, and automob i les. and 30p ercent ad valorem.

p arts t hereo not including rub b er t ires .

Iron orsteel d igesters for themanufacture ofwood p ulp 27 ; p er cent ad valorem.

Musical instrument cases, ianc cases or b oxes, p ortfolios, satch els , reticules , 30p ercent ad valorem.

card cases, purses , p ocketb oo s , fly b ooks forartifi cial fi les, all t he ioregomgcomp osed wholly or in ch iefvalue of leather.

SCHE D U LE D .—A RTICLES SU BJECT To THE U ND ERMENTIONED R ATES or D U TY .

A rticles . R ates of duty .

Cement , Portland , and hydraulic orwater lime in b arrels, b ags, orcasks , th e 11 cents p er 100p ounds.

weigh t of the ackage to b e included in th e wei h tll‘

or duty .

Trees, viz, a p e , ch erry , p each , p ear, p lum, an quince , of all kinds , and 2§ cents each .

small p eac trees known as June b uds .

Cotpdensed milk, th e weigh t of the p ackage to b e included in th e weigh t for 2 cents p erp ound .

ut y .

B iscuits without added sweetening 20p er cent ad valorem.

Fruits in air- tigh t cans or othera ir- tigh t p ackages t h e weight of the cans or 2 cents p erp oundotherp ackages t o b e included in th e weight forduty .

P eanuts , sh elledP eanuts , unshelledCoal, b ituminous, round and run ofmine, including

‘

b iturninous coal such aswill not pass through a i - inch screen.

(T . D .

Wood pulp—P rinting p ap er.

Instructions as to th e assessments of duty on wood p ulpand prin ting pap er under

paragrap hs 406 and 409 , tariff ac t 0 1909 .

TREASU RY D EPARTMENT, May 5 , 19 10.

Sm: The Secretary of Sta te h as forwarded to th e dep artment from th e Americanconsul a t Sh erb rooke , Canada , a copy of certain new regulations in th e Province ofQueb ec , from wh ich Iquo te th e following :

“

(A ) A ll timb er cut on Crown lands after the let. of May , 1910, must b e manufactured in Canada - tha t is to say , converted into pulp or p ap er, in to deals orb oards,or in to any oth er arti cle of commerce or merch and ise as dis t inguish ed from suchtimb er in i ts raw or unmanufactured state . Th ere sh all not b e consid ered as manufactured , W i th in

.

the meaning of th e present re ula t ions,timb er merel cut into

lengths or logs p i led up , b arked or o th erw ise wor ed p reliminary to th e ab ricationof p ulp or p ap er, of deals or b oards or of any oth er articles of commerce , norwaney

fib er

s}? p oles ; b ut actual square timb er and railway ties are considered as manu

ure

A s th e foregoing regula tion in effec t forb ids th e eXp oN at ion for use in the manufacture of wood p ulp of wood cut on Crown lands, dut ies will b e assessed on woodpuli

pland printi ng pap erproduced frompulp wood cut on such lands afterMay 1 , 1910,

as o ows:

Qn mechanically ground wood pulp , th e regular dutv under aragra h 406 of thetari ff act ofA ugust 5 , 1909 , a t th e rate of o ne - twelfth of

‘

J cent. p e ip

p oundpidry weigh t.On ch emi cal wood pulp ,

th e regular duties , under p aracra ih 406 of said act , at thefollowing rates : U nb leach ed ,one - Si xth of 1 cent p er p ound, dry we i c h t ' b leach ed,

one - fourth of 1 cent p er p ound , dry we igh t .a

On printing p ap er, the regular ra tes of d uty and in add ition th e re to the addi tionalduty ofone - tenth of 1 cent. p er pound wh en valued a t 3 cents p erp ound orless underp arag raph 409 of sa id tari ff ac t .

T . D . 29968 and 3004 3 of A ugust 26 and O ctob e r 16, 1909 are h ereb y amendedaccord ingly .

Resp ec tfully ,

COLLECTOR or ( lU sTOMs,P la ttsburg , N . Y .

J AMES F . CU RTIS ,A ssistant Secretary.

REt'

ll’ROt‘

lTY WITHCANADA.

COMM ITTEE O N WA YS A ND MEA NS ,

HO U SE O F REPRESENTA TIVES,

llashmgton ,D . (1 ,

ll’ednesday , February 8 , 19 1 1 .

The committee me t a t O’clock a . m.

Present : Repre senta tives McCall (acting cha irman) , Hill , Boutell ,Needham, (

‘

alderli e ad , Fordnev , Ga ines , L ongworth , Dwight , Ellis ,U nderwood , Pou , Rande ll , Broussard , and Harrison .

’

The A CTING CHA IRMA N (Mr. Me t‘A LL ) . Mr. Bradley

,of New York

,

submits a sta tement on the pending bill , re lating to p en and po cke tcutlery . Without obj e ction , tha t will b e printed in th e re cord as a

part of our proceedings .

Then there is a communica tion from the American Society OfEquity , from Evan ston , Ill , in which a gen tleman who appearedbefore the committee makes an extension in writing of his remarks .

Without Obj e ction , tha t will b e printed in the re cord .

(The papers mentioned above are as fo llows

COMMITTEE ON MILITARY A FFAIRS,

HOU SE O F REPRESENTATIV ES,

Washington ,D . C .

,February 7 , 1 9 1 1 .

Hon . SERENO E . PAY NE ,Cha irman Committee on Ways and Means

,House of Representa tives .

D EAR SIR : Notwith stand ing th e seeming impossib ili ty of amending H . R . 32216 ,a proposed reciproci ty agreement w ith Canada , I h ave th e h onor to submit for th epri nted h earings th e attach ed sta tement in sup p ort ofmy earnest protest against tha twhich I know wi ll prove a serious injury t o American manufac turers Of p ocket cutlery ,

should th e prop osed agreement b e confirmed .

Resp ectfully ,THO S . W . BRAD LEY .

RECIPROCITY A GREEMENT WITH CA NA D A—PEN A ND POCKET CU TLERY .

So far as p ocke t cutlery is concerned . American manufacturers can have.

no op por

tunity of enlarging th e ir marke t in th e Canadian field . Canadian Offici al rep ortsshow that for th e year ending March 31 ,

1 910, th e total imp orta tions Of p ocke tknivesfromGreat Bri ta in amounted

"

to from Germany ,and from th e U ni ted

States , th e latter b ein imp orts Of p atent self—Op ening novelty knives only .

It is unreasonab le to sup p ose t a t a decrease from 30 to 27 71. p er cent in th e Canad i anduty will in any way b enefit our American manufacturers or workmen wh i le th eEnO lish goods pay only 20 p er cent .Should th e Canadian reciproc ity trea ty b e enacted into law ,

i t would mean ,In th e

case Of pocketkn ives , a reduc tion of 65 p er cent from th e existing Payne ta ri ff rates .

Wh ile it is tru e tha t no p ocket cutlery is a t th e present time manufactured in Canada ,

the first considera tion is wh e th erAmerican manufacturers can comp ete in the marketsof Canada under 2 7 1, p e r cent duty as ag ainst a p referential du ty Of 20 p er cent onEnglish cutlery ; and a la ter considera tion is sure to b e wh eth er American manufacturers can com e t e in th e marke ts of th e U nited States wi th th e roduct Of Canad i an

manufacture a ter cutlery works shall have b een estab lish ed in [anada .

‘

U nder th e

cheap er cost of living th ere , sh ould Sh effie ld manufac turers install p lants in Canada ,

man th em wi th mixed English and Canadian lab or, and p ay th e average Of forei gn

wages , a duty of 275 p er cent ad valorem would measure li ttle more than one - th i rdthe difference b e tween cost of production in Canada and th e U ni ted Sta tes In th i s

200 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

connec tion ,i t may b e no ted tha t English steel , dutiab le at 20 p ercent , i s used in the

manufac ture of American pocke t cutlery . A gainst th i s , Canad i an manufacturersmay import forged steel knife b lades at 5 per cent , th e Bri tish p

referenti al ra te ofdutyReciproci

ty ,in this instance , to American manufacturers 0 p ocke t cutlery , s1mp y

puts injeopardy th eirh ome market , worth in exchange for a vain a ttemp t

to secure a largerp ortion of th e Canadian ma rke t , th e total _value ofwh i ch for th e year

ending March 31 , 19 10,was less than

It i s also ab solutely unjust to th is American industry to lum mo ther- oi earl

handled ,highly

finish ed articles in the same class W i th iron - h and ed knives , orks,

and sh ears .

In simp le justice to the manufacturers of American pocke t cutlery , now strugglingin their h ome market ag ainst th e keen comp e ti ti on ofBri ti sh and German producti on,

th e words ,“

p enknives , p ocke tknives ,”in line 3 , page 6 , and th e same words in

line 10, p ag e 13 , ofH. R . 32216, should b e stri cken out .

EVANSTON ,ILL . , February 6 , 1 91 1 .

Representa tive PA Y NE ,

Chairman Ways and Means Commi ttee , Washi ngton , D . C .

HONORABLE SIR : Y our acting ch airman ,a t th e h earing on Feb ruary 4 , granted us

p ermission to fi le a supp lementary b rief p rotesting in th e name of th e AmericanSocie ty ofEquity against th e ratification of th e reciproc i ty agreement W i th th e D ominion of Canada . We will d o th is as b riefly as p ossi b le . Th e President has sa id ,

“If

we can enlarge our supp ly of natural resources , and esp ec ially food products and thenecessi tie s of life without sub stantial injury to any ofourproducing andmanufacturingclasses we should take ste p s to do it now .

”

We h ave endeavored to p rove that th is can not b e done w i thout serious financialinjury to th a t great army engaged in sowing and reap ing th e products of th e soil.Not only wi ll the introduction offree gra in from th at vast D ominion ofCanada , u on

th e quantity ofwh ich th ere is no limitation ,reduce th e value of th e cereals ra ise by

ourfarme rs (as is the purp ose ofourPresident) , b ut ismmv h aving th e effect ofreducingthe value of th e crep s of 19 10 even in advance of any p osi tive assurance of its ratifi

cation .

What th e de trimental effec t will b e in case of ra tifica tion is incalculab le .

Much of the crops of 19 10 is still in th e farmers’

granaries . J ust how much we willknow exactly when th e crop b ulle tin ofMarch 1 is issued b y the D ep artment ofAgriculture . Taking , h oweve r, th e amounts sh own b y th is same auth ori ty on March 1 ,1 910, we w ill have some idea of th e magnitude ofwhat is involved in th is issue .

Cereals . Amount . Value .

$1 . 1s

4 34 ;. 4 7

Th e prob ab ilities are tha t th e figures wi ll sh ow on March 1 fullv as much on hand ofth ese cereals , esp ecially th e corn and oa ts

,b ecause b oth of th ese

‘

crops are very muchlarger th an th e crop s of 1909 ab ove ca lculated on .

We W i ll therefore ask you t o seri ously considerwh at e ffect. th e ratifica tion of the

prop osed a reement will h ave on the va lue of th ese vas t. amounts ofwh eat . corn, andoats , sti ll t e property of th e farmers and y e t. to fi nd a marke t .A lready th e .

loss , as compared wi th a y e ar ago . is stupendous . Th e wh eat is worth95 centsi n Ch i cago , or less than on March 1 , 19 10. The cornless, b e ing

‘

worth in Ch i cago to- day o nly 4 7 cents . Th e o a ts less, b eing

worth i n ( Ilncago tod ay only 32 cents . The to tal o f th is is and thefarmers have on hand a total of over l ,500,000,000 b ush e ls , a nd everv decline of 1 centp er bush e l on th i s amoun t. is th e equiva lent of $ 15This is anoth erseri ous um"tor for th e life insurance comp anies and financial instituti ons wh o h ave the irmillions inve sted in farmmortgages .

In th e course ofh is remarks the honorab le Rem'

ese nta t ive fromMissoru'i Mr. ChampClark, sa i d tha t we had b e tter prepare for th e annexal ion o f th e D ominion bfCanada .

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202 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

U nited Sta tes Brewers ’

A sso c iation in J une , 1908 , th e advisory commi ttee sa id : It i s

now seven y ears since th e D ep artment of A griculture first gave i ts a ttenti on to thework of imp roving th e b arley crop .

”Th e fo llowmg annual mee t ing in J une , 1909 ,

b rough t up th e same sub jec t and th e adv i sory commi tte e rep orted as follows : The

U nited S ta te s D ep artment of A griculture i ssued on A pril 24

,1909 , BulletinNo . 124

,

wh ich conta ins th e p re liminary results of i nvestiga ti ons auth ori zed b y Congress in

th e agricultura l a p p ro p ria tion b ill for th e fiscal y ears 1903 to 1907 , to study th e b arleys

grown in d ifferent se c t io ns of th e U nit e d S ta tes W i th a Vi ew of imp rovmg the i rqua lity .

”Th e evid e nc e all sh o ws th at ab out th e yea r 1900, th e

.

U n i ted StatesBrewers

’

A sso c ia t ion so lic i t ed th e U nited S tates D ep artment of A gri culture to use

i ts e fforts (and later on for four ye a rs money ap p ropri a ted ) toward imp rovmg and en

larg ing th e b arle y crop . Th e y a lso so lic ited th e a id of'

th e Sta te agri cultural collegesand to such an extent we re th e y suc c e ss ful, th is c oming only a few y ears after theimp osition of th e p ro tective duty ,

tha t th e farme rs with in th e t en years treb ledth e ir crop .

0

In O ctob er next in th e C i ty of C h icago an interna t ional b arley exp osmon is to b e

h eld b y th e b rewers and p ri zes offered th e b arley growers t o st ill furth er enlarge and

imp rove th e growing of b arley . A nd it is b e cause b arley is grown for b ut one purp ose ,excep t t o a very small extent , and b e cause th e industry h as b een nourish ed b y th e

U n ited States Brewers ’

A ssoc ia tion and th e D ep artment ofA gri culture th a t we b elieveth e b arley growers h ave sp ec ia l cla ims fora Co nt inuat io n of th e pro tec tion that h as b eenin p art instrumental in add ing many millions of acres t o th e growmg o i th i s p art icularcereal.

We can no t. see wh ere th e imp os it io n of th is p ro t e ct ive duty was in anv way reSpon

sib le for th e de teriora t ion of th e b arley—g row ing industry in th e Sta te of New Y ork

,

b ecause th e y st ill h ave th e acres and th e seed is ava ilab le ,b ut we are inclined to

b e lie ve tha t th e elements ne cessary to th e so il for th e p roduc t ion of b arley are now

la cking . In any event we would b e glad to h old out th e h e lp ing h and to th e farmersin any of our own S ta tes wh o desire to engage in th e grow ing of b arley and to furnish

th emw ith th e seed a t co st . We do ,h owever. p rotest strongly aga inst comp et it ion from

a fore ign coun try of vast areas and conven ient ly s ituated t o our h ome markets and we

b eg careful considerat ion for all of th e reasons given for y our b e tter guidance and

understand ing .

A M ERIC A N SO CIETY or EQU ITY ,

i v J OHN R . MA U FF .

STATEMENT OF HON . WILLIAM E. HUMPHREY , REPRESENTA

TIVE FROM THE STATE OF WA SHINGTON .

Mr. HU MPHREY . I hardly think it w ill b e nec essary forme to sta te

to th e c ommitt ee tha t I have no t prepared my self to present my case

as I should . Y ou w ill so on d iscover tha t . Bu t I do want to submi ta few though t s to th e commi t t ee a s a ffecting th e industries of the

Sta te ofWash ing ton .

Firs t , I w ant to ca ll y our a tten t ion t o th e fi sh industry . It may b e

a surprise to th e g entlemen up on th e committee t o know th a t the fi sh

industry of th e S t a te o fW ashington is our larg est industry . It now

exceeds our lumber industry , and is the large s t of any St a t e in theU nion . This t-rent y —if I may term it a trea ty—p ro p o ses to placefi sh on th e free list . I have no t. y e t. be en ab le to decide in my own

mind wha t it is . If it is a tre a ty , I do no t know wh y i t is over here .

If it is an ac t. to i‘

e ji ila te comi i i e i‘

ce , I do no t unders t and why Congress did no t. do i t . If i t. is fo r the purpo s e of revis ing th e t ariff , I amunabl e to und e rs t and wh y i t did no t ori gi na t e in the House . Butwha t ev e r it ma y b e terme d , it pro p o s e s to pla c e fish upon the freelis t .

U pon our co as t. w e h ave . a s I h av e s a id . a gre a t fishing industry .

Th e Canadian Go v e rnme n t , jus t a c ro ss t he line ,s i i lis id ize s its fisheries

l) giving them sp e c ia l ra tes o f trans mrt a t io i i o ver its railways.

li en the new Go v e rnme n t line is comple ted and rea ches Prince Eup ert , th e, Can ad ian ( h ive i

-

nni ent is go ing t o establish there a great

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A . 203

cold—storage lant , costing a good many millions of dollars (I have seenit stated a t a l the wa from t en t o twent millions of do llars ) , Wherethe fishermen may t a t o their ca tch and keep it in perfect conditionmarkets of this country . Th e question that is agitating th e fi sh er

until th e Government ra ilroad can carry it a t special ra tes in to themen upon our co ast is , how do es Congress expect a private industryto compe te with the Canadian Government in this respect if you are

going to take off allgro t ect ion in th e way Of a tariff ?

Mr. GA INES . Mr. {um hrey ,wha t are those specia l ra tes on the

Government ra ilroads ? an you e labora te on that po int ?Mr. HU MPHREY . NO : I can no t

, be cause I have been unable to ge tdefinite informa tion in regard to them.

Mr. HA RR ISON . Wh at is the to ta l value of the fi shing industry of

your State ?Mr. HU MPHREY . I can no t te ll y ou tha t , e ither. I do no t know .

Mr. H ARR ISON . Is it a fi sh - packing industry or a fi sh - ca tchingindustry ?Mr. HU MPHREY . It is bo th .

Mr. HA RR ISO N . In about wha t proportions ?Mr. HU M PHREY . I am no t able t o te ll you . A s I said a t the begin

ning , I have no t been able to ge t definite information . It is a longway out to my country , and the ma ils have been he ld up . Such statements as I have rece ived have been principally by telegram,

and whatI happen to know ,

just in a genera l way .

Mr . HA RR ISON . D O you happen t o know the compara tive price of

fi sh on the Canadian Sl(le of the border and in your State ?Mr. HU M PIIREY . No ; I do no t know tha t .

Mr. HA RR ISON . Fresh fi sh , in th e marke t ?Mr. HUM PHREY . I do no t know tha t e ither.

The A CTING CHA IRMA N . Mr. Humphrey , is your fishing industrychiefly a salmon industry ?Mr. HUM PHREY . No . Th e sa lmon is first .The A CTING CHA IRM A N . Tha t is th e larges t ?Mr. HU MPHREY . Tha t is th e larges t .

The A CTING CHAIRMA N . Is tha t a river industry ?Mr. HV MPHREY . No ; it is no t confined to th e rivers . It is on bo th

rivers and sound,and a grea t portion of it is in A laska ,

where theydo their fi shing in what are no t exa ct ly inland wa ters , b u t soundsand b a s .

The IXCTING CHA IRMA N . I was no t including the Alaska fisheries .

Mr. HC M PHREY . The A laska fisheries would all b e affe c ted by thisbill in the same way .

The A CTING CHA IRMA N . But y ou are including those in th e fishingindustries that y ou are speaking of

Mr. HU MPHREY . Y es ; I am inc luding tha t fishing industry ,although I am speaking of th e Sta te ofWashington . I h ave a letterthat I received this morning—I think probably it is here

—in whi chthe statement is made

,somewha t to my surprise , tha t during th e

last year the value of our fi sh was greater than the va lue of our

lumber. I presume when this tre a ty was being nego ti a ted those whowere representing our Government w ere no t aware

o

of th e fact thatCanada subsidized her fisheries . This

,to my mind , i llustrates one of

lt

l

he dangers of revising th e tariff in se cret , with no opportuni ty to b eeard .

204 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANADA.

M r.HARRISON

.M r

.Humphrey

,if i t should turn ou t (as I be lieve

to be th e case ) tha t the princip al art of the fi slnng indus try of yourSta te is canning or packing , wou d it no t be a benefi t to the Sta teto have th e raw ma teria l come in fre e from Canada ?Mr

. I‘IU MPHREY . No ; we do no t need to ge t the raw ma terial fromCanada . We have our own raw ma teria l . We no no t have to fi shin Canadian wa ters . We have all of our own raw ma teria l so far as

fi sh is concerned . And while I think i t is probab ly true tha t thepacking industry is the largest , y e t w e s end a gre a t de a l of fi sh to theeastern coast , as far as Boston ,

now . We send a grea t many h a libut .M r

. PO U . I am no t sure whether you were a sked this question ornot ; but if you were , I will repea t it : Did you say tha t you did ordid not know the extent to which Canada subsidizes i ts fi shingindustry ?M r

.HUMPHREY . No ; I have no t the fi gures definitely . This is

wha t I know they do : They give specia l ra tes o ve r the ra ilroads .

The roads in Canada are largely owned b v the Go vernment . Theygive specia l ra tes to fi sheries . Then they propose to establish a

grea t co ld - storage plant a t Prince Rupert , so as to ass1st th e fi shi ngin tha t w ay . Whe ther there are any a dditiona l a dvantages or not

,I

am no t prepared to say .

The next item tha t I want to ca ll your a ttention to bri efly islumber. You have he ard a gre a t dea l of discussion of the lumberquestion

, and no doubt the members of the committee know morea bout the deta ils of the lumber bus iness in our Sta te than I do . ButI want to ca ll your a ttention to the fact that the persons who framedthis agreement ove rlooked the a ttitude of Canada—especia lly BritishColombia—and its po licy in regard to putting an export duty uponlogs . Sometimes they not only have a duty , but the exporta tion isabsolutely prohibited . If the lumbermen in my Sta te could havea bsolute free trade in all fore st products between th is country andCanada , the re would be very little ob

'

ect ion so far a s the lumbermenare conce rned . But if we change the law and provide for free lumber

,

and a t the same time ermit British Colombia to put an export dutyupon logs or to a b so ut ely prohibit the ir being brought into thiscountry , it seems to me we are giving something for nothi ng .

M r . BROUSSARD . Right there , let me ask this question : You saytha t some of the provin ces absolutely prohibit the exporta tion oftimberM r . HUMPHREY . A t time s .

M r . BROUSSARD . Can you refer us to the law under whi ch theProvinces exercise tha t right ?M r . HUMPHREY . No . Pe rhaps Brother Fordne v knows .

M r . BROUSSARD . I have looked up the law , andi

l‘

fi nd onlv the actof 1 8 9 7, wh ich permits the Province s to impo se an export tax of notexceeding $3 a thousand . It makes tha t t ax opera tive b v the governor and the counc 1l pa ssing such a law and pu b lishing it in theCanada Gazette . Many witnesses haw come here and sa id tha t someProvmces absolutely rohib it the e xp orta tion of logs . I am unableto fi nd tha t law , and wanted to ge t a. re fe rence. to it, from some ofthe gentlemen who have looked up t he ma tter .

Mr. FORDNEY . If the gentlemen wi ll permit me to sav so,all the

Provmces of Canada now have an embargo placed upon their logs bythe governors of the various Prov inces ; and the governor h as the

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206 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANADA .

Mr.BROUSSARD

.I certainly think so ; be cause i t occurs to me that

if the Commissione rs of the Canadian Government h ad intended tobring about free pape r betwe en our country and theirs , they shouldhave proceeded fi rs t by e ither having the Provmces revoke

.

the taxor securing the assurance tha t they would do so in case this trea tywas adopted by bo th co untries . The fact tha t they came here anddea lt w i th this entire subj ect , and

,after it h ad been dea l t With ,

no tifi ed th e Secre ta ry of Sta te on the 2 1st of J anuary tha t the y couldno t be held to represen t the Province s , and tha t the Provmces mustact on their own individua l mo tion subsequently to the ra t lfi cat ion

of the trea t-y ,indica tes to me th a t the Provinces may or may not

repea l this t ax ,or may repea l it and subsequently re impose i t

.

In o the r words , i t does no t appear to me tha t the commissioners ,in acting with this Government in framing this agreement, undertookto bind the Provinces

,either because they knew the Provmces would

no t be bound,or else because they knew the party would no t revoke

the law by which the en tire jurisdic tion of the Prov inces whichenables them to impose the export t ax was to be taken aw ay fromthem . So I be lieve

,in answer to y our ques tion , tha t they would

Mr. PO U . There is this considera tion ,a lso : The Government has

50 majority is going to rema in . They may have an experience overthe re like we h ad in the las t e lec tion here .

Mr. GAINES . This ma tte r seems to me of considerable importance ,in view of the informa tion

,or partia l informa tion

,whi ch we now

possess . Th e le tter from the Canadian authorities accompany ing thePresident’s message ca lls our a ttention

,apparently w ith grea t frank

ness,to th e fa c t tha t the Dominion Government c an no t control the

a ction of the Prov inc es . Yet it would appear from the sta tementmade this morning tha t the power of th e Provinces in this respect isdue to a voluntary (and therefore ,

I take i t,a revocable ) grant of

power on the part of the Dominion to the Provinces . In tha t casethe Dominion might have re sumed the power

,and then i t would be

in the p osition to control the situa tion .

M r . BROUSSARD . If you will read the wording of a part of thisletter of M r . Fielding and M r . Pa terson (the Canadian commis sioners)to the Secretary of Sta te , written a fter this agreement h ad beendrafted , you will fi nd this language :Th e restrictions a t present existing in Canada are of a provincia l character. They

have been adopted b y severa l of th e Provinces w ith regard to wha t are be lieved to b eprovmmal Interests . We have ne ither th e right nor th e desire to interfere with theprovinc ia l authorities in th e free exercise of their constitutiona l powers in th e adminIstrat i on of the ir pub lic lands .

In o the r words , the commissioners recite tha t the power to imposethis t ax is a constitutiona l power in the Provinces ; tha t the landsbelong to the Provinces ; and tha t th ey have neither the desire nor the

power to exercise any influence a t all w ith the Provinces .

Thisetter was not written until a fter there h ad been entered into thisagreement in which appears this provision w ith regard to wood pulp ,pulp wood ,

'

and.pr1nt paper . So tha t

,j udging from the language of

this letter , if this trea ty is ra tifi ed , we need not expect any influenceto be exermsed hereafter by the Government of Canada over thegovernments o f the various Provinces with regard to the removal ofthe restrictions that may be imposed .

REC IPROC ITY WITH CAN ADA . 207

Mr. CALD ERHEAD . I think you are right on that mint,because on

the 1st of May the Province of Quebec absolute y prohibited theex ort at ion of timber from any crown lands .

Rh . BROUSSARD . Tha t is the po int I wanted to bring out in askingthe question I did o f Mr . Humphreys —to ascerta in under wha tauthority they do tha t .Mr. FORDNEY . Mr . Cha irman , let me tell you this : I started a

while ago to explain to y ou (and if you permit me , I will do so ) wha tI know to be a fact , because I have held those licenses myself .The commissioners of Crown lands in the various Provinces have

absolute cont rol over the lands in the Provinces . They have a commissioner of (‘rown lands as we hav e a Commissioner of th e Genera lLand C ilice here . A purchaser of timber on those Crown lands bu y sonly the t imber . not the lands . The lands are not for sa le . They are

for homest ead after the timber h as been removed or disposed of . Ifto—day you or any other pers o n should purchase the timber on anyportion of the Crown lands in th e Province of Quebec . or the Provinceof Ontario . or any other Pro vince—b y the way . on the Pacifi c coa stthey have another law , which I will expla in , in addition to the one Iam now explaining—y ou would get a license

'

t o go and remo ve tha ttimber on or before th e lst da y of next Ma y , no ma t ter wha t timeof the y ear y ou migh t buy tha t right . But when y ou cut and removeit

,there is a condition in the license it self that y ou must p ay to the

Crown land department of tha t Prm ince a certain ra t e p er thousandfeet of stumpage for y our lo g s , or so much per cord for y our wood .

The y reserve the right in th e license to change the rate tha t y ou are

to p ay—either to lower it or to ra ise it . It is set forth in th e licensetha t the timber must be manufacture d in Canada . Tha t is all thereis to it . You have no authori t y in your license to remove it fromthe Province in whi ch you cut it , o r from Canada .

M r . GAINES . Let me ask you a. question right there .

M r . FORDNEY . All right ; go ahead .

Mr. GAINES . Is the commissioner of Crown lands an offi cer of theProvince or is he an offi cer of th e Dominion Government ?M r . FORDNEY . The commi ssione r of Crown lands is an offi cer of

the Province .

Mr . GAINES . And is tha t power on the part of the Prov mces a

constitutional power in the sense in which we understand the term“ constitutiona l

,

” or does i t origina te in Dominion sta tutes whichmay be rep ealed a t any time ?

i r. FORDNEY . I have never seen the act myself , h r. Ga ines ;but it is my understanding tha t the commissioner of Crown land sis absolu tely under the contro l and authority of the Provmce itself ,the same as a State o ffi cer in the United Sta te s wo uld be under ourState laws .

Mr. GA INES . We are trying to reach the source o f the power .

M r . FORDNEY . Now ,let me go further . There is no export t ax

011 logs coming from Canada into this country . I have never knownof any , al though I have hea rd tha t there was at one time , many years

ago , an export t ax on logs . There is an embargo upon logs—tha tIs to say , a prohibition against their coming into this country whenout from Crown lands . The Provinces have no control over

- thetimber on lands tha t have passed out of the possession of the Provmce

and have been deeded ei ther to Indian reservations or to ind1v1duals

208 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANADA .

who obta ined title t o th e l ands und e r some o f their land laws. Theright t o remove tha t emb a rgo is in the governor , by pub li sh ingh asyou mentioned ,

Mr. B i-

o us s ard . But in Bri tish Co lumbia the p racticeh as b e e n tha t wheneve r the log ma rke t became flo o ded wi th logs,and a larg e amount w a s o n hand ,

a nd the pric e o f logs wa s likelyto go d o wn

,and the market fo r logs w a s g ood in th e Sta te of Vl a shing

ton,just acro s s th e l ine , h e would immed ia tel y remove tha t embargo ,

and th ev would dump their surplus log s upon our market , and

innned iat e lv p ut back the embargo .

T h a t h a s been the custom .

That h a s been often done ,and i t wa s done this last yea r and th e year

before ; and i t is th e pra c tic e eve ry t ime the y have a surp lus of logson hand .

M r.HILL . M r . Cha irman

,I think I can relieve the Situa tion a

l ittle in rega rd to the lo g question . A t the t ime of the tariff hearings

,copies of the contracts under which logs were sold were sent

from Canada . I have over in my o fi i ce a copy of such a contract .M y understanding of the situa tion is tha t the logs on the

.

Crownlands are owned by the respe ctive Provinces ; they are their proerty ,

just a s I might own them if they w ere priva te lands . In t especifi ca tions for bidding at the auction sa le s there is a clause whichprovide s tha t wha te ver purcha ses are made sha ll be made Withthe understanding tha t the logs sha ll be manufactured in Canada .

It app lies t o Canadian citizens , British citizens , French citizens ,and Ame rican cit izens a like . The re is no restriction tha t theysha ll not be t aken into the United Sta tes , any more than there istha t they sha ll not be taken to England . It is simply a provisiontha t when a man sta rts to make a bid

,whoever h e is

,he makes it

with the distinct understanding tha t he sha ll manufacture thattimber in the Dominion of Canada . Tha t is my understanding ofthe ma tter .

Mr . FORDNEY . Tha t is abso lute ly correct . The re is no discriminaJtion aga inst any one country

,or aga inst t h e . U nited St a te s , in favor

of any oth er country . A ll persons obtaining license s to cut timberin those Provinces are compe lled t o manufac ture it in Canada .

The A CTING CHAIRMAN . Now,M r . Humphre y ,

will y o u proceedM r . J OHN NORRIS . Mr. Cha irman , I am M r . J ohn Norris

,the chair

man o i the committee on paper of the American Newspape r Publishe rs’ A ssocia tion . La ter on I expec t t o ask the committee foran opportunity to make a statement upon paper and pulp ,

whichI think w ill entirely cla rify the situa tion , which is evidently confused ih the minds of the members

, and give them accura te information as to th e restrictions and as to the que stions which relate tothe duty and th e rea sons which a ffe c t th e present t ext o f the trea tyarrangement so far a s it rela tes to pape r and p ulp .

The A CTING CHAIRMAN . The commit t ee w ill be very glad to hearyou . A t wha t t ime wo uld it b e convenient ? I t is now half past1 1 o ’clock .

Mr . NORRIS . I did no t exp ect to make any sta tement to—day . Ihave sent to New York for my tab les , in o rder tha t when I answeryour questions as t o pric es and other things respecting paper andpulp

.

Imay gi ve you ac cura te , deta iled informa tion, and not mislead

you in any respect .The A CTING CHAIRMAN . You could go on to - morrow

,could you ?

Mr . NORRIS . Surely .

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2 10 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CAN ADA .

E? The A CTING CHA IRMAN . I will ask the clerk to secure those laws,and so forth , from th e Library .

Mr.GAINES . I think we sha ll have time to he a r you , Mr . Norris .

Mr.FORDNEY . We want to hear eve

rybody who wants to be heard .

LMr . GAINES . I want to give everyb o y a full hearing .

A. M r . HU MPH REY . M r . Cha irman , shall I proceed ?M r . HILL . J ust one moment . I have he re the fi mres whi ch you

sa id you did no t have a moment ago . If you like ,(

Iwill give themto ou .

E" 18h . HUMPHR EY . A ll ric ht .

5 M r . HILL . The entire fi shery industry of British Co lumbia in 1908aggrega ted A sta tement of the entire fi shery industryof

fith e United Sta tes for the Pa cifi c Co a st Sta tes . showin the vari ous

forms and kinds of fi sh ,will be found in Table No . 90 in t e Sta tistical

Abstra ct ; and it ag re e at es about including Alaska .

bf M r . HUMPHREY . h,

b

tha t is no t right . I know it is more thantha t .

r. M r . HILL . I t was for the Pa cifi c Coa st Sta tes in 1 904 .

i

t Mr . HUMPHREY . I do not know wha t it was in 1 904 : but I knowit was over for A la ska a lone la st yea r .

Mr . HILL . For A la ska,in 1908 , it was

M r . HU MPHR EY . Last yea r i t was something overM r . HILL . I pre sume very like ly it is growing . So far as the sub

sidies pa id by Canada are concerned , there is the document givingthem. You can look them all ove r . You will fi nd there pig iron

,

stee l , wire , rods , mani la fi ber,lead , and crude petroleum ; but I see

nothing in rega rd to fi she ries . This conta ins the entire sta tementof all moneys pa id by Canada for subsidies and subventions .

M r . UNDERWOOD . I should like to ask unanimous consent to havetha t document printed in the hearings .

Mr. HILL . I t is ra ther an extensive document .

Mr . UNDERWOOD . I mean the portion tha t you refer to . if vouwill indica te tha t part .

ilibeACTING CHAIRMAN . W ithout obj ection

,then

,those parts

w o In .

(T e ma tter referred to will appear a t a la ter point in the hearings .)Mr . HUM PHREY . The part about the fi sheries to which I was call

ing especia l a ttention was in regard to the Canad ians hayi ng specialra tes over their Government ra ilroads , and in regard to the as sis tancecoming from the Government in the w a y of the grea t cold—stora

ge

plants . You may no t ca ll tha t a subsidy , bu t tha t is wha t it is . tis the same thing in the end .

In regard to lumber and logs : It is true,as h as been sta ted by

Mr. Fordney , as I understand , tha t there is no d is crimin a tion madeaga inst the United Sta tes ; but as a ma tter of fac t the Sta te of Washing ton is the principa l sufferer . There is where the sur lus of logscomes . I know tha t this h as occurred frequently : I

)

remembervery dis tinctly having met one of our leading lumbermen one morning , and he was very much disconcerted

,for this reason : He had

made a contract for a large number of cedar logs in British Columbia,and was running his mi ll and opera ting upon logs brought fromthere . He h ad made his contrac ts and his arrangements to run for acertain period of time upon logs that he was to ge t from British

REC IPROC ITY WITH CANADA . 2 1 1

Columbia ,and he received no tice that morning tha t no more could

be brought ou t .

Wh a t we complain about is this : When the commissioners weremakin this reciprocity treaty , why were no t the se facts gone into ,and W i y were no t the interests of our industries out there takencare of ? I t seems

,as a ma tter of fac t , th a t those who were nego

tiat ing this trea ty on beha lf of the Uni ted Sta tes knew no th ingabout these conditions , so far as I am able to ascertain . They ap

parently did no t know tha t any such condi tions existed , in regard toeither lumber or logs or fisheries .

J ust a word more in regard t o lumber .

I'Vh en we were revising the

tariff we heard a grea t de a l o f ta lk about taking the ta riff off of lumber and revising it for the benefi t o f the consumer and of the poorman who is going t o construct his house . I do no t know Wha t theresult wa s all over the co untr y ,

but I do know tha t in the Sta te ofWashington ,

instead of lumber being reduced in price,it went up .

It went up immed iately after the tariff on it w as lowered,and it h as

been up ever since .

Mr . DWIGHT . IVas tha t the producer ’s price or the consumer’sprice—the reta il or the who le sale price ?M r . HUMPHREY . I t w a s the price of th e manufa cturer —a t which

he so ld i t .

r

Ili e mills of the Sta te of Wa shington increased the priceof lumber w ithin 30 d ays a fter th e tariff on i t was reduced . Th e

only difference out there was tha t t h e Government lost the revenueand the t i inb erlands over in Brit ish Co lumbia increased in price , andthe consumer pa id more for his lumber . I am no t go ing to s top toreason it out

,b ut those are the fa cts .

M r . HARRISON .

'

Wa s that the who lesale or the re ta i l price ?Mr.

HUMPHREY . Tha t was th e pric e of the mills tha t so ld the lumber . I did not trace i t any further than tha t . I do not know wha thappened from tha t po int on .

Mr. RANDELL . How d id the bus iness ge t hurt , then ? It looks asif the Treasury is the only thing tha t got a lick there .

M r . IIL’

M PHREY . A s far as I am ab le to discover , the GovernmentTreasur y got licked and the man who owned timberlands over inBritish Co lumbia go t the a dvantage o f it .

RANDELL . A nd th e man here w a s no t interfered w ith , becausethe manufa cturer here so ld lumber st il l highe r than he did before ?Mr . HUMPHREY . Yes .

M r.RANDELL . A nd ve t h e come s h ere and swe ars by all tha t is

ho ly that it w ill ruin him i f y o u remove the t ax . It seems to me hehas a cinch on it in some way .

M r.UNDERWOOD . Did the mills in Canada advance the price on

lumber a t th e mill as soon as we made th e change ?Mr . HUMPHREY . I am no t suffi ciently informed to spe ak by thecard ; but they must have don e so .

Mr.RANDELL

.Then

,on tha t point , the pre sent condition does no t

injure the lumbe r industry in y o ur section of the country , a lthoughit prevents the lumber from the northern section of Canada fromreach in down toward the southwes t pra iries ?Mr . UMPHREY . C h

,I do no t think the tariff upon th e lumber h as

the slightest effec t wha t e ve r anywhere east of the Rocky M ounta ins .

Mr . RANDELL . Or west of them ?

2 1 2 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANAD A .

M r. IIU M PHREY . I t doe s , probably , a t some p o in ts ; bu t when the

freight ra te s—when you get into the M ississipp i V a lley—are from $ 10

to $ 1 5 a thousand , it is absurd to t a lk about th e tariff of a dollar athousand affe cting the price of the lumber t o the consumer , especiallywhen you re tail it .A n instance was given to me th e other day of where a lumber

dea le r—tha t is , a ma n wh o manufactured the lumber—h ad sold to acerta in re tail dea le r here in th e city of Washington . I may notquo te th e fi gures exa ctly , b u t I am giving it to you approximatelycorre ct ly . He h ad sold tha t lumber for $28 a thousand , and he wentdown here and saw his identica l lumber in the lumbe r ard

,and the

price of it was $68 a thousand . Wha t is the use ofO

t a g about $1in the way of tariff making a difference to the reta iler when there issu ch a tremendous difference as tha t after it re aches the market ?Then I want to ca ll your a ttention to the ma tter of shingle s . Ihave been unable to a scertain just wha t the effe c t of this trea ty wouldbe upon shingle s ; bu t a ccording to a sta tement I have received fromthe president

fof the Lumb ermen

’

s A ss o cia tion of our S ta te , he thinksit reduces it from 50 to 30 cents a thousand , and puts it back where itwas be fore we increa sed t h e tariff upon shingles .

Now,I want to give y ou gentlemen ano ther illustra tion . Imme

dia t ely a fte r y ou increa sed th e tariff upon shingles,the price of

shingle s w ent down ,and i t h as been down eve r since . I t is the only

produc t in our S ta te tha t did decre ase in price a fter the tariff waschanged . In addition to tha t fact

,last ye ar w as the fi rst time in 12

or 1 5 years tha t our shingle mills have run full time and were notcompelled to shut down ha lf of their time ; and we are reaching outinto new markets to—day . We are now over in these eastern markets

,

as far ea st as Boston . We have go tten into a grea t portion of theAmerican markets tha t we never reached before ; and instead of theconsumer being ou traged by the tariff upon Shingles

,he h as bought

his shingles chea er than he ever did before,and our mills have been

running 1 2 mont s of the year instead of 6 .

The ACTING CHAIRMAN . J ust how do you explain tha t . Mr.

HumphreyM r . HUMPHREY . I h ave an explana tion for i t if y ou wish to hear it .The ACTING CHA IRMAN . How h as the tariff had tha t effect

‘

8

Mr . HUM PHREY . If the commi t tee w ants to hear me,I shall be glad

to give my explana tion of i t .

The A CTING CHAIRMAN . I did no t know bu t tha t vou migh t liketo give i t to the committee .

Mr . I—IU M PHREY . It is not very long . My explana tion of tha t isthis—and I may say tha t tha t is one time when I roph esied correctly . I made the sta tement on the floor of the ouse that thatwould be the result in regard to shingles .

In the first la ce it gave to our people in the Sta te of Washingtona confi dence t a t they w e re going to have new markets . There wereadditiona l mills established in my S ta te . The increasing of the tariffon shingles did shut out the Canadian shingle very largely—notentirely, but very largely—and it did give the American re ducera dditiona l markets . By having the additiona l markets and y beingable to run h is mill 12 months in th e year instead of 6 he was able toproduce shingles for a less price , and did do it . That is the wholestory , so far as shingles are concerned . I can no t see wha t advantage

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2 14 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANAD A .

orienta l labor qu ite largely in the coal mines of Brit ish Columbia .

They are situa ted a t t ideava ter, and it is e aS i er mining in BritishCo lumbia than it is in Washing ton . It IS

.

no t so costly . Youreduced the. tariff upon coal , and the only difference w as that thecompany bringing m a ] into t he city of Sea ttle—which they do to a

very large extent—put the difference in the ir pockets , and immedia tely put up the price of their coal ; and coa l h as been higher everyday since the tariff was reduced than it was before .

The A CTING CHA IRMAN . There is no proposition in this bill toreduce the duty on coa l .

0

Mr . HUMPHREY . I have noth ing to say on,

tha t p omt , then .

The next point I want to ca ll the committee’s a ttention to is inre ard to the p aper industry . I want to read Just a pa ra rap h fromaFette r tha t I have received from the Everett Paper Puthen

,with the consent of the committee , I

_shou ld like to eave it tobe pub lished the whole of it . This is written by the president ofthe company :It has been drawn to th e writer’

s at tent ion b y one of our emp loyees , who was connected with th e British Co lumb ia Pulp Paper Co .

,tha t in

.

th e Operat i on of thatp lant J apanese labor was emplo y ed ,

and wh ilst it may b e sa id tha t J apanese labormay b e ava ilab le in th e State of Wa shington ,

stil l it is our po l i cy no t to employ orienta l labor as aga inst th e American workman .

Th e British Co lumb ia Governmen t some years ago offe red subsi d i es and concessionsb y which anyone e rec ting a papermil l and operating th e same was given a se lectionof large bod ies of t imber a t a very low nominal stump age , and at th is time three of theconcessions have be en taken up b y large p lants , and there are a t this t ime two largeplants , one in operation a t Swanson Bay and ano ther und er construction a t Powe llLake ,

th e products of which ,upon th e tak ing off of th e tari ff

,will p lace th e paper

industry on th e Pac ific coas t a t a d isadvantag e .

(The above le tter will be found printed in fu ll a t the end of M r .

Humphrey ’s sta tement . )The same thing is true here as in the ca se of the fi sheries . Those

who were negotia ting this trea ty seemed to lose sight of the fact thatthe Canadian Government looks after its own industries in variousways , in the way of subs idies and pro t e ct-ions , which this Governmentdoes not do ; and there. is the same question he re a s in the ca se of thefi sheries . Do you expect priva te industry in -

‘i i i i erica

,with just an

imaginary line loca ted a few mile s away , t o compete w ith those industries in Canada , backed by the Canadian Government and giventhese various advantagesI want to say just a word in regard to orienta l labor. Wh ile it is

no t prohibited by th e laws of “'

a shington . ve t , as a ma t ter of fact,take it in the shingle industry , which emp lo ysa goo d many thousandmen : There are ve ry , very few orient als , as shown a t th e time thema tter was under discussion—something le ss than a thousand , Ithink—in all the shingle mills of IVash ington . \Ve do not employorienta l labor in our State . It is not the po licy of our pe ople to do it .M r . HILL

.

Ishould like to a skyou a question .PerhapsMr . Fordney

can answe r it if you can no t . Is there no t a lso a provi sion in theseauction- sa le. agreements tha t orienta l labor sha l l no t be employedin the manufa c ture of the timber '

4

Mr . FORDNE Y . Not in any tha t I eve r h ad or ever saw .

M r . HILL . I have an ind i s tinc t recollection of something of the kind .

Mr. FORDNEY . There is nothing a t all in regard to the labor employed in the manufacturing .

REC IPROC ITY ‘V ITH CANADA .

Mr . HU MPI-IREY . I understood tha t there was a provision in someof the Canadian province s prohibiting the employment of orienta llabor in logging .

Mr . HILL . That is wha t I unde rs tand .

M r . HUMPHREY . Bu t not in the mills .

M r . HILL . I thought there w as some .

M r . HUMPHREY .

'

Ihere is a provision prohibiting the employ mentof orienta l labor , a s I unde rst and , in lo g g ing , but no t in the mills .

Mr. FORDNEY . There mav be in Brit ish Columbia . I am not sofamiliar with their laws .

M r . HUMPHREY . I unders t and tha t there is a provision of tha tkind .

Mr . FORDNEY.Bu t tha t is no t s o in Onta rio and Quebe c .

M r . BOUTELL . How d o es th e orienta l labor compare,man for man

,

with the Caucasian race ?M r . HUMPHREY . In wha t respe ct ?M r . BOUTELL . In e i

‘

li '

riency .

M r . HUMPHREY . I t is no t as eIJicient : b ut while tha t is true , i tcosts less to produce a thousand shing le s by o rien t a l labor th an i tdoes b y white labor

,and it Co s t s le ss t o produce a th o us and feet of

lumber by orienta l labo r than b y white la bor .

M r . BOUTELL . Wh a t are thes e ori ental s ,mo s tl y ?

Mr. HU MPHREY . In British ( ‘

o lumb ia (‘

hinamen, J apane s e , and

Hindus . There are mo re (‘

h ina in e n than anv o ther race emplo vedin the mills .

Th e nex t indus try I w ish t o call th e a ttention of th e commi t tee tois the dairying industry . Th e dairying ii i d i i s try of wes t ern Washington is one of our grea tes t indus tries . A s fa r a s are a is concerned

,

I presume Puget Sound is as grea t a da iry ing country a s we ha v e inthe Uni ted Sta tes . Und er this pro po s e d a a ue ement

,w e let Canada

right down to o ur marke t s . Th e y have no marke ts for da iryingproducts—practica lly none . I do no t se e wh a t we rece ive in re turn .

The next is the genera l farming of our Puge t Sound "w intry ,which is very g rea t . e sp e cia lly in o a ts and h a y . Th e fa rmers of mydistrict have furnished th e o a t s for the Go v e rnment to s end t o thePhilippines

,very large ly—i ii fac t. a lmos t entire ly . But last y ear

the contractor b o ught h is c a ts in C ana da ,and pa id the duty . and

then got them for lt’ b f‘ t han he could buy them for in th e State ofWashington .

M r . HARRISON . Wha t is the price of oa ts in Wa s h ington ?M r . HU MPIIREY . I can no t tell you tha t .

Mr . HARRISON . Do y ou know wha t the pric e of h a y is ?Mr . HUMPHREY . No ; I never bought a ton in my life .

Mr . HARRISON . Or the price on the Canadian side of th e border "

M r . HUMPHREY . No ; I do no t know tha t ; but I know tha t the. dutyis 15 cents a bushel on oa t s and $4 a ton on h ay . They have no t beenseriously disturbed in the ca se of h ay ,

bu t they have been so far.

as

oats are concerned . I t w ill direc tl y affect tha t industry ; and takingall of the products tha t I have mentioned , I am unable to se e wherewe will get a market for a single one of them in Canada . So far

‘

as

this bill is concerned,as it affects the Sta te of Washington ,

we giveevery thing and get no thing .

The ACTING CHA IRMAN . I have been informed tha t there is a delegation of Can adian farmers a t O ttawa pro t es ting against the treatv

2 1 6 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CAN A D A .

because of the provisions re la t ing to fru i t , cla iming tha t i t Will admitour fruit into Canad a fre e

0

M r . IIITM PHREY . There may b e some thing in tha t . I think that isprobably true .

0

Mr. DWIGHT . If the y are there pro testing , le t me have this messageread in regard to our fa rmers .

The A CTING CHAIRMAN . You may have i t read ; bu t le t M r . Humphrey co nclude .

M r . HUMPHREY . Yes : I will only take a moment more .

In regard t o fruit,I want t o make an explana tion

,so tha t you may

not be misled as to tha t . I think it would be an advantage to someof the fruit ra isers of my Sta te—those in the irriga te d district

,where

they ra ise a fruit tha t is fi ner than can possibly be produced anywhereelse . They might get an additiona l marke t in Canada

,not because

fruit is not raised in Canada ,but be caus e of th e higher quality of

their fruit,which would perhaps give th e m a market . I think that

is true ; and so far as the fruit industry is concerned,i t might be of

some advant age to the irriga ted distric t s in e aste rn “v

ashington .

However,tha t doe s not ap ply to th e wes t ern s ec t ion .

M r . RANDELL . W ith reference to oa ts , y ou have ra ther a scarcityof land for th e produc t-ion of oa ts

,have y ou no t ?

M r . HU MPIi REY . No . I will say to th e gentleman that th e grea testo a t - producing region in the United Sta tes (and I think the greatestin th e world) is jus t south of the Canadian border .

M r . RANDELL . D o y ou mean in extent or in qu ality ?M r . HUMPHREY . No ; no t in extent, a l though it is no t very small

,

e ither .

Mr. RANDELL . But it is th e extent I am t alking about . In otherw ords . a

'

_ ric ultural land is no t abundan t in y our S ta te . is it ? Do youno t need a ll y o ur agricul tural land ?M r . HU Mri i REY . we ra ise more wh e a t than any Sta te of the I

'

nion .

We have the gre a test whea t country , and our oa tsMr. FO RD N’

EY . If y ou w ill permi t me,I will s t a te tha t th e States

o f California , Was hnrrton ,and Ore f

ron now use for feed for horsesmore barley than they do oa ts , and th ey a lw a y s h av e done so on thePacifi c coast . Th e barley is of such a charac ter on the Pacifi c coasttha t i t makes extraordinarily f ood food in th e p la ce of c a ts . and vouare v ery extensive ra isers of ba rley on th a t c o as t .

M r . IIC MPHREY . Yes ; b u t tha t is principa lly on th e eas tern sideof th e S ta t e . I am speaking more pa rt icularly of the western side .

I am sp eaking more part icu larl y of mv own di s t ric t na tura lly,because

I know more about i t , and because i t is the one tha t is the nearestto Canada . “7c are there where we h av e no pro tec ti on in th e wayo f dis t ance , in the way of fre i g h t ra tes . life are righ t a t the border ;we hav e the highw a y of P in '

e t Sound running u i iii t o Bri tish Co lumb i a . and w e h ave no pro tec tion at all. If vou t al< e o ff the t ariff , thereWi ll b e a b s o lutely open compe tition . That is the onlv thing we haveto pro te c t us .

Mr. FO R D NE You s p e ak of the. C anad ian farmer . W ill vou pleaselet tha t t e le g ram b e re ad a t th is po int 7Mr. l lL

'

MP IIREY . Y e s . J us t let me make one more s ta tement . andth e n I am thro ugh .

Mr. I want to ask vo u s ome qu es t ions .

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2 1 8 BECIPROCITY WITH CANADA .

Mr . HUMPHREY . Exa ctly .

Mr . FORDNEY . They can not get it to Ont arioO

and Quebec fromany other country than from the south or the P ae lfi c coa st .

Mr . HUMPHREY . Wh o is going to buy lumber over ln BritishColumbia ?Mr.

LONGWORTH . How much did you say we shipped over there ?M r

.HILL . Two hundred million fee t in 1 905 ,

and last year aboutfee t .

Mr . HUMPHREY . Whe re did that go ?Mr

.HILL . That is wha t I ask you

—if you know where it went .

M r . HUMPHREY . It certa inly could no t go into Brit ish Columbia,

because they have over there about how many people ? A b outpeople

,and ha lf of those are Orienta ls . Y o u want to open

up the market here all along th e northe rn border,includ ing probably

people,to n e t into a market over there o f a few thousand

as far as British Columbia is roncerned , and ha lf of those are Ori entals .

A s far as we are conc e rned,we are not ge tting a nything out of this

bill . There is no ma rket for A merican p rodu< t s from. our part ofthe country over in Canada . “th a t m a rke t they have they raisetheir own supplies for

,with th e single eXc ep t-io n of this h igh~class

fruit . I am unable to see where the re is a ma rke t in C anada for anyof the products I have mentioned . It is probably t rue that th e manu

facturers of Sea ttle ( a n ge t over there with some of the ir lw g ingengines and some of their ma chinery ; and they do tha t any way .

But so far as farm products are concerned,or lumber

,or fi sh

,or

shingles,there is no marke t over there ; and if there w ere ,

t h e y wouldsu ply it themselves right a t their door .IlI/Ir. FORDNEY . I can answer the question put b y Mr. Hill . Theheft of the lumber tha t g oes into Canada. is bridg e t imb ers , 9 by 16bridge sills , and all sorts of timber for cons t ruction which the y c an notroduce in Canada unless they cut it out of whi te p ine

,wh ich is too

igh fi red to go into tha t ( lass of timb e r ; so it t omes from th e South,

long-Te af pine from Ge o rg ia and Mis sissippi and o ther SouthernStates . It goes into tha t country for tha t purpose

,and it c an b e

obta ined nowhere e lse in the whole United St a t es unless it comesfrom the Pa c ifi c coast

,and the re th e fre i e h t is any where from

$1 5 to $35 or $4 0 p er feet .

M r . HU M P I-IREY . May I submit a litt le la ter on,pro b ably to - day

or in the morning ,some letters tha t I have rece iv e d upon this subject

Th e A CTING CHA IRM A N . Y ou may . If y o u wil l hand them to thest enogra

lph er to - day the y will b e printed t o - ino rro w .

(M r . Iumphrey subsequently handed to the stenographer theletters re ferred to

,which are as follows : )

EV ERETT P U U ‘ PA I'ER Co .,

Ercrclt , Wa s/L ,J a nuary 30, 1 9 1 1 .

W . E . HUMPHREY,

Reprcscnluh'vc S ta te of ” h alt ing/on ,

” fi shing/on ,D .

C.

D EA R SIR : Here in you will please fi nd c onfirma tion o f t e l e g ram wh ich was sent toyou in re ga rd to th e Pre sid e n t ’s me ssag e to C ongre ss advising th e ratification o f therec i proca l tre a t y with Canada .

1L

A t the lime of the investig a tion of th e pa ] and p ape r industry in 1008 , th e factswe re re porte d up on to ( lo l ig i‘e ss ,

a nd you W i l l 1nd, on p ag l

‘h‘ 18 6° JSHR. 18 64 18 65 , and

J am; th e re po rt. of this c ompany ,and to which we wo uld mo st re spec tfully

,

re fer you ,for th e re a son that on p ag e 18 6 3 y ou wil l fi nd our arwument in regard to th e e ffec t uponour plan t , and th e paper indus trie s o f th e Pac ific cfasl

,in th e even t of th e tariff be ingtaken o ffpape r en ti re ly .

REC IPROC ITY WITH CANAD A . 2 1 9

It has been drawn to th e wri ter’s attention b y one of our emp loyees, wh o was con

nected with th e British Co lumb ia Pulp PaperCc .,that in th e operation of that p lant

J apanese labor was emp loy ed , and while it may b e said that J apanese labormay b e

available in th e State ofWashington , still it is our policy not to employ oriental laboras ainst th e American workman .

The British Co lumb ia Government some y ears ago o ffered subsid ies and concessions b y which anyone erecting a paper mill and opera ting the same ,

was given a

se lection of large bod ies of timber at a very low nomina l stumpage , and a t this timethree of th e concessions have been taken up b y large p lants , and there are at thistime two large p lants , one in opera tion at Swanson Bay and another under construction at Powe l l Lake ,

th e products ofwhich,upon th e taking off of th e tari ff , wil l place

the paper industry on th e Pacific Coast at a d isadvantage .

The principles of protection , as out lined both b y Presidents Rooseve lt and Ta ft ,have been that pro tection should on ly b e given to th e extent of th e d i fference in th ecost of labor, b ut it certa in ly should inc lude a lso any subsid ies or concessions whichmay b e given to manufac turing industries ; otherwise th e advantages of those sub

sidies and concessions may mean th e ann ihi lation of th e p lant which h as no suchsubsidies or concessions .

Th e Pacific coast is sti ll in its deve lopment period,and a t th e present time th e

very life of our paper industries is dependent upon th e protection as aga inst cheaperlabor and subsid ies of other countries .

We there fore submit th e foregoing for your kind considera tion , hoping that th epaper industries w ill not b e subjected to such a serious b low as th e abolishing of th e

tariff at this time would result in .

Respectfully submitted .

Y ours very truly ,W . HOWA RTH ,

President .

[Nigh t telegram.]

EVERETT PULP PA P EREverett , Wash

,J anuary 28 , 1 9 1 1 .

W. E . HUMPHREY,

Representa ti ve of S ta te of Washing ton ,

House of Rep resen ta tr’

res .

Re ferring President’

s message to Congress regarding reciproca l treaty with Canadarecommending putting pri n ting paper va lued under 4 cen ts upon th e free list meanspractica lly th e annihila tion of our p lant at this po int or any other point in th e StateofWashington . Th e subsidies granted b y British Co lumb ia Government in th e formofvaluab le timber rights and concessions in consideration of erecting paper and pulpmills in Bri tish Co lumb ia and th e compe titive avai lab le cheap labor of J apanese and

Chinese,which we have a lways declined to emp loy in competition with American

labor,places th e paper industry of Pacific coast at grea t d isadvantage and aga inst

which th e tari ff passed at last session of Congress gave protec tion , b ut which now itis proposed to abo lish . We respec tfully ask your consideration .

EV ERETT PULP PA PER t ‘

o .

OCCID ENTA L FISH Co .

Sea ttle, Wash ,J anuary 28 ,

1 9 1 1 .

The Hon . WILL IA M E . HUMPHREY ,

House of Representa tives , Washington , D . C .

D EA R SIR : This is to confi rm our night le tter to you to - day , as fo l lows :“We urge you to prevent proposed action on rec iproc ity treaty W i th Canada so far

as it abolishes duty on Canadian fi sh . Seattle is grow ing to b e headquarters of th efi sh industry , which amounts to over a ha lf a million dollars monthly . Prop osed actwould permit at least ha lf of this business passing through Canad ian ports i nstead ofSeattle . We also understand Canad ian Government rebates one - thi rd of transportation charges to Canad ian shippers, which in add ition to free entry of the i r productswould injure our business greatly .

O F C (IOCID ENTA L 18 11 0 . NO . .

Thismatter is one of very great interest to Seattle and the Northwest in general andi t would affect all branches of th e business . We h Op e that you W i ll use every e ffortto prevent any thing of this nature be ing passed as large Interests operati ng In Canada .

2 20 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CANADA .

would b e in a p osition ,w ith th e Government sub sidy th at th ey are now recelvm

t o materially dama.e us in th e conduct of our b usi ness , as th ey could lay th ese goo 5

down on th is side 0 th e line and d isp ose of th em ch eap er than we could .

We are sending you under se ara te cover one of our 19 1 1 calendars , wh i ch W 111, weh op e ,

b e of interest—sh owing t e manner in wh ich th ese fi sh are taken . Th e steamerWeid

'

ing Bros , mentioned th ereon ,landed last y ear ab out p ounds at Seattle,

and th i s coming season w exp ec t to greatly increase our output .The fish ing industry is th e largest in the State ofWash ington and greatly exceeds

in volume th e lumb erwh ich until recently was th e greatest p roduc t of ourNorthwest .Y ours , ver truly y

OCCID ENTA L FISH CO .

By EDWIN RrPLEY , Secretary .

WESTERN (‘

o nrrsn

Sea ttle , J anuary 31 , 1 9 1 1 .

Hon . WM . E . HU MPHR EY ,

House of Represen ta tives Washington ,D . 0.

MY D EAEMR . HU MPHREY : With th e ap proval of all th e p arties in intere st wewired you on J anuary 25 as follOWS Z

“Strong effort now making b y imp orters for rec i proci ty W i th Canad i an provmces

involving fre e entry green and salted fi sh . Th e ir ch eap er lab or and nearne ss fish ingrounds would destroy ent irely U ni ted States cod fi sh eries , transferring en t i re b usmess

om States to provinces ,includ ing British Co lumb ia . On th is coast cod fi shmg alone

involves p ermanent investment nearly A nnual outfitting exp endi ture ,A nnual p ay ro ll

,Emp loy es 400 fish ermen

,all sailors . We ask

you to jo in wi th Massachusetts p rotective Congressmen in vigorously op posing thisfatal b low to th is industry of coast . ”A nd last nigh t w e a g a in w ired y ou as follows

,all o fwh ich we now b eg to confirm:

“We request and trust th at yo u may make i t convenient to ap p ear b efore th e con

ressional commi tte e to -morrow p rotesting aga inst Canad ian rec ip roci ty measuree trimental to our industry in accordance w ith our te legram to you J anuaryTh ere is li ttle to b e said in add ition to th e foregoing , exce p t as sup p lemental , as our

first wire conve y s to y ou in b rief all thatmigh t b e said in p rote st aga inst th is prop osedCanadian re c iproc i ty measure . Th e codfi sh industry of th is coast , p art icularly inregard to Puge t Sound ,

is one of th e unproductive industrie s th at h as b e en exp loitedw i th th e v iew to putting i t on an income -

producing b asis , th e result ofwh ich h as b eena series of financial wre cks b rough t ab out large ly b y reason of lack of prop er transp ortat ion facili ties, lack of p opula tion to consume th e product , and h igh cost of production . To th ose of us wh o h ave invested in the b usiness i t means th e life or deathof th e industry on th is coast

,as we could no t under any c ircumstances comp ete

w ith th e Canadian p roduc t . A s an industry th ere h as never b een a cen t of dividendsp aid b y th e numerous concerns th a t have attemp ted to b uild i t up on Puget Sound .

A s to th e Canadian marke ts in in g op ened up under th is reciprocity arrangement,b eg to say th at we are practically unab le to do b usiness in V ic toria and Vancouver,as fi sh is b rough t into th e se markets from Halifax

,laid down at pric es w ith wh ich we

are una b le to comp e te a t a profi t . Our sales,th ere fore ,

in th a t marke t are very smalland only oc casional

,and in such quanti ties as to me e t th e ir immed ia te requirements

wh en th eir sto ck is low . In vi ew of th ese preva i ling c ond it ions we aga in urge vou to

join wi th th e Massac huse t ts Congressmen in vigorously op p o sing th isi

measufe , wh ichwill no t only work a h ardsh ip on th e ve sted in t e re sts

,b ut wi ll c ause a loss to th is

country o f an industry th a t b ids fa ir in time to b e p ro ductive ofmind results .

We sincerely h op e for your consideration and e nerge tic coopera t ion .

Y ours,very truly ,

WESTERN P onrrsn Co .,

Per D . D A U N EGA N .

Ponr BLA KELY MILL Co . ,

P ort B lak l W h .

"

1 1 ,

Hon . W . E . HU MPnns y,

'J 08 J anuary 19 1

[ louse of Ito/w scn/o lives,ll

'

ashing lon ,I) . (

1

MY_

D EA R MR . HU MPHREY : Iwish to sincerely comp liment y ou on th e serious andeffective e fforts you are making in b ehalf of th e vi tal questioninvolved in th e prOtec t i on of our sh ores aga inst fore ign invasion . Y o ur sp eech at D e troit wh ich I haveh ad the p leasure of read ing ,

is most opp ortune and convincing .

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2 22 REC IPROC ITY W ITH C AN A D A.

price of lumb er imp orted from Canada figures ab out $15 , h ence th e pro tection on sur

faced lumb er, one and two sides , would b e ab out 5 p er cent ad va lorem‘

and not to

exceed 10 p er cent ad valorem on surfaced four sides . Th e Canad i an tari ff rema ins,a s I understand i t , rough lumb er on th e free list, sh ingles on th e free li st (th ese twoi tems have never b een dutiab le in Canada ) , and lumb er surfaced more than one Side

,

ma tch ed ,tongued and grooved , or o th erwise worked ,

25 p er cent ad valorem. Sh iplap ,

worth $9 a t th e mill, is th e lowestgrad e of lumb er sh i p p ed into Canada that is

dutiab le and on th is th e. Canad ian tari d emand s p er duty . Flooring,wh ich is th e. h igh est grade sh ip p ed ,

is worth ab out $25 ad valorem and on th i s the Canad ian tariff demands duty . If we mus t h ave rec ip roc i ty on

.

lumb er, th en theCanadian tariff should b e no h igh er than th e American tariff. Eigh ty - fi ve p ercentto 90 p er cent of th e lumb er sh ipp ed from th e U ni ted Sta tes into Canada is surfaced

,

ma tch ed , or tongued and grooved .

O f course you understand tha t condit ions a t p resent are very much dep ressed in

th e lumb er b usiness on th e American side , wh ereas th ey are very much mfi ated on

th e Canad ian side On account of th e ir ab normal p rosp erity . Two years ago , whenwe sough t th e p rotect ion of th e p resent Payne—A ldrich b ill

,cond it i ons w ere just

th e reverse,and th e fact is tha t any t ime wh en Canada

’

s p rosp erity is ch ecked and ourown cond itions recovered somewh a t

,sh e is th e exp orteroflumb erand not th e imp orter.

A noth er fea ture of th e rec ip roc ity agreement is that it grants free lumb erw ithoutasking Canada to w ithdraw h er restrict i ons on th e exp orta tion of saw legs . Th e resultof th e p resent recip roc ity agreement w ill b e th at many mills w ill move from theAmerican s ide to t h e Canad ian side and manufac ture th ere

,exp orting th e rough

lumb er int-o th e U n ited States . A ga in ,if recip roc ity must come , we should have

an equal op p ortunity w ith British Columb ia in manufacturing th e raw material.I am g iving you th ese facts in order to p la ce th em b efore vou foruse in case you mayrequire th em.

I want t o congratula te y ou on your very ab le sp ee ch b efore th e Na tional A ssociation ofManufac turers in Wash ington and aga in in D etro it. on th e quest ion of th e merch ant marine and it s rela t ion to th e commerce and naval p rote c tion of th is country .

Y ou are rap idly making a name for y ourself along the line of th is sub j ect , and as one

of your friends an d w e ll-w ish ers I want t o see y ou p ush th e sh ip- sub sidy matter to

a successful conclus ion .

Y ours , very truly , J , H , BLO ED EL ,

Mr. FO RD N EY . I w ish you would have that telegram read now forth e benefit of th e gentlemen who have be en asking these questions .

(Th e clerk thereupon read a loud th e fo llow ing t elegramz)

TRO Y,N . Y . ,

Fe bruary'

7,19 1 1—5 p . m.

Hon . J OHN W . D WIGHT ,M . 0

,

Washing ton ,D . C

Th e Tompkins County Sta te (firange de legation op p os e p end i no Canadian reciproc ity

as unjust d i scriminati on aga inst th e farmer i n favor of th e manufac turer.

E . T . “'

A LIL N B EC K , Cha irman.

Th e A CTING CHA IRM A N r. Gi ant , do v o u wish t o b e heard ?Mr. GRA NT . 1 es . S i r.

STATEMENT OF MR . R . P . GRANT, OF CLA Y TON , N. Y .

Mr. GR A NT . Mr. Chairman and g entleme n o f t h e commit tee,I

come he re. as th e rep resenta t ive o f t he ll'

a t ert o w ii P ro duce Exchangeand th e no rth e rn fa rmers .

Th e A CT ING CH A IRMA N . “Ta tcrt own , Y .

?

Mr. GnA N '

i‘

. Y es . sir : a long th e Canad ian fron t ie r.

Th e “f

a t es-

t o wn Produce Exchang e is t h e larges t inland cheesebo ard tha t there is on t he .

‘imcrican co ntinent . In fac t ,

it is thelargest che ese bo ard in th e wo rld . O ur o utput of cheese. there thislast se ason w as app ro xima tely bo xe s . Th e t o tal receiptsfrom th e sa le. o f tho se bo xe s wa s “

T

o haveseveral mi lk t ra ins running out o f J effe rso n C o un t-v t o th e e astern

REC IP ROC ITY W ITH (‘

A N A D A . 223

marke ts : and we a lso manufacture butter. The da iry output ofour cheese p arish is a

pproxima tely p er annum. Our

county is a d airy and my and manufacturing c o unty . A ccordingto the census of 1 900, Jeff erson County was th e tenth gre a test countyin the U nited S ta tes in th e to ta l amount o f h er p roducts . So vo u

will see from tha t tha t we. stand a t th e head of th e New Yo rk co unt iesas a d a iry and cheese county .

‘Ne are producers of a large amount o f h ay for o ur county . We sella t least worth o f h ay to th e eastern marke ts . D uring thislast season ,

our farmers rece ived for their h a y from e leven t o fou i teendo llars p er ton ,

according t o th e qua li t y . Y ou can b uy Canada. h ayto - day , and th e best of it , a t $7 a t on . Y ou will see that if youthis Canada h ay to come into th e U nited Sta tes in compe tition wi thour American h ay . it will reduce th e marke t price o f tha t h av fromOne to two do llars p er t on .

Mr. HILL . Wha t is th e price o f your h ay , on th e average ?‘

li l‘ . GR A NT . This season it is from eleven t o fourteen do llars,

according t o th e qua lity .

Mr. HILL . \Vli ere do y ou ge t your authority fo r th e sta tement thatthe price of Canada h ay is $7 a ton ?

Mr. GRA NT . I ge t it from a h ay buyer.

Mr. HILL . That is an indiv idua l instance ?Mr. GRA NT . No ; I understand tha t is th e ordin ary price for the

best of h ay .

Mr. HILL . Th e average price of all h ay in Canada , according tothe Canadian Government reports , in 1909 w as on th e farm,

and in 19 10 it was So tha t it is higher in Canada than it isinWatertown

,on your own sta tement .

Mr . GRA NT . I do no t so understand ; pardon me .

Mr. HILL . I am giving y ou the Government sta tistics .

Mr . ELLIS . Tha t would include British Co lumbia , where th e priceis verymuch higher than it is in th e sta tistics given by th e gentleman .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Mr. Chairman ,if you will permit me , I will have

here in three minutes a le tter from the Hay D ea lers’A ssocia tion in

New York,dated D ecember 10, tha t w ill be ar out th e gentleman

’

s

statement tha t in Quebec h ay is se lling for from $7 to $8 a ton .

Mr . GA INES . Is it no t no torious tha t h ay is considerably higher in

America than it is in Canada ?Mr. FORD NEY .

lNhy ,certainly .

Mr. GA INES . We have h ad so much evidence of the fact tha t I dono t think it is worth while questioning it .

Mr. GRA NT . I am a banker as well as a cheese manufacturer, andwe are furnishing money to—day for American h ay buyers to go intoCanada and buy h ay a t $7 p er ton . They te ll me tha t they go and

buy the best of the h ay in Canada for $7 er ton , just opposi te theNew York Sta te line . I am a lso credib y informed tha t a New

York City buyer went into Canada two weeks ago and p i cked up all

the hay he could ge t , and all h e pa id was $7 p er ton . I know the

buyer very well . He is an e astern buyer.

Mr. RA ND ELL . Is there a scarcity on this side tha t causes you t o

go over there and ge t tha t h ay ?Mr. GRA NT . No

,sir; we h ad a b ig crop th is se ason . Northern New

lY ork had more than double th e amount of h ay this ye ar that i t h adas t year.

224 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANADA .

Mr. RANDELL . Is it no t the plan to ke e p up th e price so high thatthey have to go and scour all o ver th e country t o ge t h ay ?

Mr. GRANT . If the h ay buyers can b uy it for $7 it is che aper to buyit there and p ay duty on it than t o p ay the Americans from $ 1 1 t o 3514 .

Mr. RANDELL . But - whe n you have a gre at b ig crop do yo u not

ho ld y o ur pric e up ?Mr. GR A NT . We have to take the marke t price .

Mr. RANDELL . D o you no t make th e marke t p rice ?

Mr. GRANT . No,sir; we do no t make it .

h i t l' iiA N D ELL . Who makes it ?i\ l l

‘

. GRANT . The e astern h ay marke t make s the price of our h ay .

Mr. BO U TELL . I suppose you try to do t he same w ith h ay that theydo farther south w ith co tton ,

do you no t—ge t all y ou can for it ?Mr. GRANT . I am no t familiar with co tton . It. co st s our farmers

about $ 10 a t on to make the ir h ay . Y ou unde rst and that Americanlabor is very high and very scarce

,so far as farm labo r is concerned .

Mr. RANDELL . That is because the cost of living is so high that theyhave go t t o charge highe r wages , is it no t ?Mr. GRANT . I do no t understand it so .

Mr. R A ND ELI Y ou do no t understand that ?Mr. GRANT . No .

Mr. RANDELL . In re ference to th e co tton of th e South,I w ill say

tha t ne ith er there nor any were e lse is the price enhanced by thebru ta l power of law over the tariff . Y ou understand tha t co tton isfree ; do J ou no t ? I suppo se th e gentlemen o f th e committee understand tha t , Mr. Boutell . Wha tever price co tton brings is th e natural

price o f th e market . Now, wh y could vou no t prosper in tha t way

In New York in re ference to hay ?Mr. GRANT . A s I understand

,the co tton market is controlled by

specula tors and o cra te rs . There is no one tha t contro ls hay . It

S imply go es into t Ie marke t and is so ld on th e marke t for wh a t it is

wort 1 .

Th e ACTING CHAIRMAN . Mr. Grant,w ith regard to h ay ,

I fi nd thatwe export t o Canada about tw ice as much h ay as we import fromCanada .

Mr. GRANT . I was no t aware o f tha t .

Th e A CTING CHAIRMAN . The mo vement is no t large in e ither direction ; but w e export about twice as much to Canada ,

I fi nd by the

figures , as w e im ort from Canada,taking the year 1 909 as the basis .

Mr. GRANT . T 6 year 1909 is no t a fa ir basis of comparison ,Mr.

Cha irman .

Th e A CTING CHAIRMAN . Tha t is th e only y our for which I happento have th e figures .

Mr. GRANT . I will te ll y ou why .

Mr. RA NDELL . Before we leave tha t ques t ion ,Mr. Grant

,vou said

tha t c o tton is r-mi trolled by specula tors and manipula tors . Y ou are

ta lking abo ut t he New York Co t t o n Exchange . are you ?Mr. GRANT . A ll I kno w is wha t I read .

Mr. RANDELL . I say ,is tha t wha t y ou a re t a lking about ?

Mr. GRANT . Y es .

Mr. RAND EL L . There is some legislation on foo t to kno ck that out ;and there is a lso legisla tion on foo t to kno ck out this tariff and tokeep us from bringing it into Canada .

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226 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANAD A.

Mr.GA INES . When th e gro cery man so ld it for 1 8 cents a pound ,

cheese wa s what ? What were you about to say ?

Mr.GRANT . Th e average price tha t th e farmers rece i ved for the

cheese in 1 909 was cents . In 1 9 10 th e average price was

cents a pound . Ourgro cery men are perfectly W i lling t o se ll cheesea t 2 cents a pound profit , and our laboring men are perfe ctly willingt o buy cheese if they can b uy it a t 16 , 17 and 1 8 cents . But If you

get cheese up t o 20 or 2 1 cents or upward , It becomes a luxury , andthey cut it out . Still

,a t th e same time , cheese IS a very economi cal

food even a t 20 cents , for this reason : There no bone , there Is no

gristle ; it is a pound of so lid foo d . It i s not l ike a pound of beef ormutton ,

where two - thirds of it or one - third of It IS waste .

Mr.RANDELL . Witho ut any tariff on cheese would no t th e laborin

people in New York ge t cheese much cheaper and use It a grea t deamore for food ?Mr. GRANT . I do not think th e laboring man would buy any more

as long as h e could buy'

it up t o 1 8 cents ; but th e farmer t ha t produced it would get less if you le t this Canada cheese come in . If thisduty of 6 cen ts a pound is taken off it will reduce th e pri ce to the

farmer at least 2 cents a pound .

Mr . RANDELL . A nd that would no t make it cheaperfor th e laboringman ?

Mr. GRANT . Y es ; it na tura lly wouldmake it a little cheaperfor thelaboring man . That is true .

Mr. HARRISON . Mr. Grant , where do th e most of your farm handscome from ?Mr. GRANT . They come from Canada .

Th e ACTING CHA IRMAN . D o you know where th e Canadian cheeseo es ?gMr. GRANT . Y es , sir. The Canadi ans have no home market .

Th e ACTING CHAIRMAN . It go es to Eng land , does it no t ?Mr. GRANT . It all goes t o England . It goes a t th e Englishman

’

s

rices . Tha t is the reason why they could only get 10 cents for theirest cheese When we were getting , in th e he ight of the season

,for

about four weeks , 14 , 14 715, and o ccasiona lly as high as 1 5 cents, for a

few factories .

Th e ACTING CHAIRMAN . D o y ou think England , where the Canadi an market is now,

would stop consuming Canadian cheeses if wetook off th e duty , and that they would entirely change the marketand send all the surplus here ? Or would not they keep on sendingt o England and supplying their trade there ?Mr. GRANT . They would sell it wherever they could ge t th e most

money for it ; and they could get more monev in the U nited Statesthan they could in England for the cheese t o—dav if vou would throwoff this 6 cents a pound duty .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Y ou say your lab oring men,vour farm hands,

come from Canada . D o you me an tha t t hev come during the busyseason and then go back ?Mr. GRANT . Y es ; many of them do .

Mr. LONGWORTH . It Is imported labor, then ?Mr. GRANT . It is not imported labor, because they come over there

and ask for work . Nobody sends for them.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Y es ; but having go tten their wages , then theyreturn to Canada ?

RECIPROC ITY WITH CANAD A . 227

Mr. GRANT . They return . Th e farmers have to p ay them $50 a

month through th e haying and harvesting . The farmers of northernew York are short of help .

Mr. RANDELL . Would it no t b e be tter for them to lose their cheesebusiness than it would for th e laboring people that live in this countryto have t o p ay more for their food ?Mr. GRANT . We ll , we are an agricultura l county . I can no t

answer y our question . I am lo oking a t it from th e farmer’s stand

point . I am interested in and managing owner of six cheese fa ctories ,and he lp se ll for and contro l fi ve more so tha t I have quite an interestin the cheese industry .

Mr. RANDELL . D o y ou ex ort any cheese ?Mr. GRANT . No t now . V e used t o export cheese . I used to

ex ort cheese 10 or 12 years ago .

r. RANDELL . Did you do it profitably ?Mr. GRANT . No

,sir; i t was no t profitable .

(Thereupon ,a t o

’clo ck p . m.

,the committe e took a recess

until o’clo ck p . m. of th e same day . )

AFTERNOON SESS IO N .

COMM ITTEE O N WAYS A ND MEANS ,HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ,

Wednesday , February 8 , 19 11 .

The committeemet , ursuan t t o the taking ofrecess, a t o’clock

p . m.,Hon . Samue l McCall residing .

Mr. FO RD NEY . If you are Wi ling , Mr. Cha irman ,I will comple te

this le t-tern . A s I stated before , it is dated December 16, 1 9 10,wri tten by the American Hay Co .

,2 4—26 Stone Stree t

,New York,

directed to Mr. E. C . Forrest , se cre tar - treasurer Michigan HayAssociation, Saginaw, Mi ch .

, and is a s fo ows :

THE A MERICA N HA Y Co . ,

224—12 6 S tone S treet , New York, D ecember 16 , 1 9 10.

Mr. E. C . FO RREST ,Secretary Treasurer Michigan Hay A ssocia tion , Saginaw, Mi ch .

f 1II

DEA R SIR : Replying to yours of D ecemb er 14 , th e Canadian hay situa tion is as

o ows :

Ontario : Crop very similar to Mich igan . Very li ttle western Ontario h ay sh ipp edto the U ni ted States ; some going to th e Canadian farwest , W i th th e excep ti on of alimi ted section . In th e eastern sec tion On tario hay cuts no figure In our sup p li es.

NewBrunswick : Crop immense ; mostly c lovergrades ; consi derab le No . 2 ; some ofthe b est timo thy fi ndin i ts way in to New England . Mixed grades Wi ll b e mostly fedwhere raised . Some wi 1go out ofSt . J ohn , New Brunswick, for th e U ni ted Kingdomand continen tal p orts . D urin th e wintermonths a few th ousand tons of timo thy Wi llgo to th e West Indies and the ni ted KingdomPri ces : Around $8 to f. o . b . on No . 2 ; $7 to f. o . b . on clover grades.

Rate to Boston, around to $5 p er t on . Ra te to St . J ohn , New Brunswmk,

around $2 per ton .

Queb ec i s prac tically th e main tent as far as ourMi ch igan and Oh i o fri ends areconcerned .

First . Quantity inexhaustib le .

Second . Grades , a limited amount of No . 1 , p lenty ofNo . 3 ; a.good prop orti on of

No 2 , and a large surp lus of extra nice b righ t clever and clovermixed .

Third . Outle t , a limi ted amount of th e b est timothy going to Scotland and a somewhat large uantity of clover rades to o th er U ni ted Kingdom and continental p orts ;but wi th afla rge crop general y on the o th er side , hay must b e b ough t very low in

Queb ec to p lace i t th ere a t a p rofi t .

22 8 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANADA .

Th e si tua tion is such th a t a ver large quanti ty ofh ay ,such as we can g e t inQueb ec ,

must fi nd its way into ew Y orkand New England ; and '

th e qui cker th e Mi ch igan

and O h io sh ipp ers realize wha t th ey are up aga inst , th ey W i ll qu1 t p ay ing exh orb i tantprices , wi th th e exp ec ta tio n of p lacing th e h ay East .Prices in Que b ec a t p resent : Good No . 2 timoth y ,

to accord ing to

size of b a les and loca tion ; some No . 1 large b ales, $ 12 , and No . 1 small, $ 1 1 ; No . l_

ligh tmixed , $8 to $10, according to loca tion and s ize of b ales ; No . 1 cloverand h eavy mixed,

and $7 . Fre igh t and duty comb ined runs ab out p er ton b o th to New

Y ork and New England p o ints .

If th ere is to b e any imp rovemen t in our marke ts on h ay S imi lar to th e Queb ecgrades , i t should b e with us ab out May , as th e roads in Que b ec are th en very b ad .

U nless th e next growing crop sh ows unusually b ad In Queb ec th ere W i ll b e.

heavycanal- b oa t rece ip ts to arrive in New Y ork from th e mi ddle of J une . Th e hay IS thereto come all righ t . Th ere are th ousands and th ousands of tons all pressed in manysec tions at present .

Very truly , yours,THE A M ERICA N HA Y CO .

STATEMENT OF MR . R . P . GRANT, OF CLAY TON , N . Y .

Mr. GRANT . I do no t want to try to answ er th e g entleman,for I

can no t do it from an inte lligent standpo int , when h e speaks aboutNova Sco tia and New Brunswick and the West . I can only talkfrom a loca l standpo int—for northern New York . When I say you

can buy t he best h ay in Canada on th e frontier, oppo sit e t he State ofNew York ,

for $7 , I am telling y ou wha t is be ing done day after day .

A nd y ou want to remember tha t th e man who buy s this h ay has to

press it . Tha t makes an additiona l tax on th e h ay o f 8 1 , so that thee st Canada h ay ,

when h e buys it and presses it , stands him in $8

p er t on . Tha t is all I have t o say on the h ay business . I am familiar wi th it , because we have fi ve h ay buyers in th e town where I live,four of them do ing the ir business through our bank . We are sendingbills of lading day after day with th e shipments ofh ay ,

and ourAmeri:can farmers are ge tting from $ 1 1 t o $ 1 4 p er t en for their h ay ,

accord~ing to qua lity . Th e less clover, th e higher th e price ; th e more clover,th e lower the rice , and so on .

Spe aking a out milk , when th e McKinley tariff w as establishedw e h ad a tariff of 2 cents a ga llon on milk . A t th a t time th e American farmer wa s ge tting from 60 t o 8 0 cents p er hundred pounds forhis milk . Tha t condition h as chang ed in th e last two y e a rs . In the

la st year, say ,19 10

,th e farmers o f northern New York have been

ge tt ing about a hundred,ne t

,for the irmilk . Inst e ad o f redue

ing this tariff of 2 cents a gallon on th e raw milk ,it should b e increased

t o 3 cents . Two cents a gallon on raw milk would b e t o make a dutyof about 2 4 cents on a hundred p ounds ofmilk

, when th e Americanfarmer w as only ge tting 60 t o 8 0 cents a hundred fo r h is milk . Ifth e duty were 3 cents on a gallon ,

a s it Should b e .tha t would make

on or about 36 cents .

o

l‘cir. fcCA L L . Then the highe r th e price o f a nec essary of life theh igher you would make it still b y raising th e tariff acc ordincrly ?Mr. GRANT . Y es .

L G

Mr. MCCALL . D o y ou no t think it should opera t e th e o ther way,tha t when a ne cessa ry gets up very high y ou should no t use the lawto make i t sti ll higher, b ut you should use th e law t o pull it down,y ou can ?

Mr. GRANT . I .will.

t ell you why I make tha t sta tement : I claim,

t o pro te ct th e Ameri can farmer; the re should b e a duty of 3 centsa gallon , or 36 cents a hundred , on milk

, for thi s reason : To - dayf

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230 REC IPROCITY WITH CANAD A .

Mr. GRANT . The ma rke t on butter has been a ffe cted very much.

Mr. HARRISON . Is there not a re classification of cream under thepresent tariff act , by assessing it a t the amount of butter fat In i t ?

Mr. GRANT . I am no t aware of it .Mr. HARRISON . I think the witness is not fully informed on that.

I know that is a fact . Just one more question . Will you te ll mehow ,

when you have stated the profits the farmers are making are

twice as much on milk as they were a couple of ye ars ago , you thi nkthey need more ro tect ion or any protecti on a t all ?

Mr. GRANT . ou mi sunderstood me . It was 10 or 15 years ago

when they were ge tting 60 to 80 cents net.

for the ir cream.

Mr. HARRISON . A re they not ge tting twi ce as much as.

they were ?Mr. GRANT . A t tha t time they were struggling for exi stence .

Mr. HARRISON . It is a pretty b ig mar

gin when

Oyou double

Mr. GRANT . Not when you take every t'

ng e lse into consi dera ti onthe cost of living , th e cost of labor, and everything they have tobuy . When the farmers were se lling theirraw mi lk for from 60to 80

cents a hundred , they could not pa y the irmortgages ; they could notp ay the interest on their mortgages .

Mr. HARRISON . I can assure you that there i s no evidence'

of anyoverproduction ofmilk in New York CityMr. GRANT . I have been told so wi thin a week .

Mr. HARRISON . Not from the consumer’s po int of view .

Mr. GRANT . I have been to ld so by reputable men in my owncounty . I am only quoting them ; I can no t say ,

except wha t I getfrom headquarters in New York City . But I go t it from a milkman.

hMr. BOUTELL . W hat kind of cheese do you make in your ne ighborood ?

Mr. GRANT . lVe make mostly a cheddar che ese .

Mr. BOUTELL . Is tha t one of th e orange- co lored cheeses ?

Mr. GRANT . Either all pla in white or co lored . The southern tradedemands a co lored cheese ; the e a stern trade demands a white cheese.

Mr. BOUTELL . Then it is the same cheese,except with a different

co lor ?Mr. GRANT . The same cheese

,only co lored .

Mr. BOUTELL . With wha t is it co lored ?Mr. GRANT . It is a vege table co lor. I do no t know that I can tell

you the chemica l ana lysis of it . It is a vegetable compound .

Mr. BOUTELL . A nd how is it with butter ?Mr. GRANT . Butter is co lored a lso

,in the winter t ime . Y ou take

fo dder- hay milk and make it into butter, and you have a light , whiteb ul

t ter, and you have to use cheese co lor to g ive it a natura l grass

co or.

.

Mr. BOUTELL . And is butter co lored to mee t the tastes of thedi fferent markets , t oo , the same as cheese ?Mr. GRANT . N0 ; just to ge t the na tura l straw co lor ofwha t would

b e made from grass .

Mr. BOUTELL . The reason why I a sk is tha t I have often noticedin certa in sections of the country

, in the ho te ls, where a stranger

goes , they are ap t to have a very, very white butt er.

Mr. GRANT . Y es .

Mr. BOUTELL . Tha t is, in the northern ho te ls, in New York, or

Boston .

Mr. GRANT . Y es .

REC IPROC ITY WITH CANADA . 231

Mr. BOUTELL . I have no ticed a lso in the West , in th e ho t els of thesame grade , tha t they have a highly co lored butter.

Mr. GRANT . Tha t is the butter c o lor,a s we ca ll it

,used in co loring it

Mr. BOUTELL . I was wondering whe ther y ou co lored butter fordifferent marke ts .

Mr. GRANT . No ; we do no t in our lo cality .

Mr. M CCALL . That is the o leomargarine co lor, is it no t ; that. wasinvented first by th e o leomargarine people ?Mr. GRANT . Th e natura l grass co lor would b e a nice straw co lor

for butter, and the co loring ma tter is used to try t o imitate , t o ge t anatural grass co lor t o butter.

Mr. BOUTELL . A nd they ge t it a good de al more vivid sometimes ,do they no t ; a good de a l brighte r co lor than the natura l gras s co lor ?Mr. GRANT . They may overco lor it

,possibly

,sometimes . Some

churnings might b e overco lored ; that is true .

Mr. HILL . Mr. Grant , have you examined the statistics at all inconnection w ith th e recipro city message ?

Mr. GRANT . No ,sir.

Mr. HILL . I w ish y ou would do it before you le ave t own . I thinkit would modify your views very considerably . I fi nd this statement

,and I would like t o know whe ther it is correct or no t : On

page 3"

amongst the articles imported into the U nited States fromthe Dominion of Canada in 19 10

,worth ofmilk and

worth of cream.

Mr. CALDERHEAD . That seems t o corroborate what h e h as b eensaymMr.

gHILL . And I fi nd in the statistics that Canada exports

, to all

countries,milk and cream

,condensed

,in 1909

,worth all to ld ,

and exported to th e U nited Sta te of condensed milk and cream,

worth . So tha t it would seem to b e , so far asmilk is concerned ,abso lutely of no considera tion ; but of cream

,there seems t o have

been a large quantity , worth .

Mr. GRANT . Th e 5 cents duty on th e ga llon of cream would let itin

,and it h as broken up , or shut up

,a good many cheese factories

in the Province of Ontario , shipping their cream into th e States .

But in our locality there is no cream shipped .

Mr. M CCALL . D o you think that would reduce th e price of creammaterially in th e U nited Sta tes ?Mr. GRANT . Shipping tha t in ?Mr. MCCALL . Y es .

Mr. GRANT . It made so much more butter in the U nited States .

Mr. MCCALL . Y es ; but do es it meet th e consumption ?.

1 understand

,on the basis of 25 cents a pound , w e use something like $350,or in va lue , of butter every year. Wh at is a

little item of about a half a million do llars for cream ? Would thatb e a drop in the bucket ?Mr. GRANT . It would affect our northern New

.

Y ork farmers a

good dea l, because they come right in there in direct competi ti onwith them.

Mr. MCCALL . Such an infinitesima l amount as that ? How couldi t affect the price of butter ?Mr. GRANT . It would affect us lo ca lly . The Canadi an farmers

want thi s free trade . They h ad a mass meet ing at O ttawa three or

232 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANAD A .

four weeks ago , and they were bound and determined that Sir Wil

fred L aurier, the rime minister there , should give them free tradew ith th e U nited

ISt a t es,so they could get the i r da i ry .

products in

here—their h ay ,butter

,cheese , eggs , p oultr and things of that

kind . But our lo ca l grangers are opposed t o etting tha t stuff comein

, and I understand our State grangers are a lso opposed to lettingit in .

Mr. HARRISON . D o you know it is estimated tha t there are about12 American farmers to 1 Canadian farmer

,and ye t y ou would have

us eople be lieve tha t th e 1 Canadian farmer could terrori ze the12 merican farmers ?

Mr. GRANT . The most of those Canadian farmers are right north of

us on the border, there , in the Province of Ontario . They are not

strung out in the farWest .

Mr. FORDNEY . Mr. Grant,one genuine burglar can terrori ze the

who le people of New York . [Laughter.]Mr. HARRISON . Y ou do no t know our town . (Renewed laughter.]Mr. GRANT . Two or three did in London

,anyway .

Mr. FORDNEY . Mr. Grant,the cha irman asked you

'

a little Whileago ,

if th e importa tion of milk and cre am a t.

th e resent time didinj ure or jeopardize your industry

,why have i t ? s there any con

dition existing t o—day tha t did no t exist when the Dingley law andthe P ayne law were effe cted in which there was a du ty put on thosearticlesMr. GRANT . There w ere no shipments of mi lk or cream into the

Sta tes .

Mr. FOR D NEY . If it was w ise t o put a duty on cream a t tha t time ,is there any good reason why it would no t b e w ise to hang on to itnow ?

Mr. GRANT . I think it would b e wise to hang on to it now .

Mr. FO RD NEY . Tha t is m opinion,unless there are some con

dit ions tha t th e friends of t is measure can po int out tha t changeconditions t o - day from wha t they were befo re ; thi s duty should b ere ta ined , do y ou no t think so ?Mr. GRANT . Y es .

Mr. HARRISON . A nd meanwhi le th e price tha t the farmer ge ts forhis cream h as increased from 60 cents t oMr. GRANT . That was th e exception . A year ago they go t from

$1 to and th e year before tha t they go t from 90 cents to $ 1 .

Mr. FORDNEY . I want t o askMr. Harrison if h e is in favor of lowering th e price ofmilk o r any o therAmerican products t o the farmer?Mr. HARRISO N . To t he consumer. I do no t think the farmer getsmore than h is fa ir share fo r any agricultura l product t o - d ay .

Mr. FO RD NEY . D o y ou think it is po ss ible to lo we r t h e price to theconsume r w ithout a lso lo we ring it to the fa rmer ?

Mr. HARRISON . I do .

Mr. FORDNEY . I would like t o kno w how y ou could do that .

Mr. HARRISON . I think th e re ta ilers, the midd lemen , are res

ponsiblefor ho lding up these prices . If we have a larger sup

ply from whichto buy our fo od product s , we. are g o ing t o g e t che aper food in thecitie s without. hurt ing th e Americ an fa rme r. in my j udgment .

Ithink the so—c a lled pro te ction t o the A ni e rican

'

farmeris a fake .

Mr. FO RD NEY . I do no t know any thing abo ut the price of cre am,

because I have no t de a lt in it ; but I do know that when prices were

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234 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANAD A .

Mr. BROUSSARD . Is' it no t a fact tha t there is a compla int in this

country now tha t too many people move from th e farms to townsand cities ?Mr. GRANT . Y es

,sir.

Mr. BROUSSARD . A nd tha t is one of th e things charged by th e peo

ple as one of th e reasons why th e cos t of living is so high ?Mr. GRANT . Y es , sir. But , gentlemen , you want to rea ch the

middleman . He is one of th e ma in factors in th e high cos t of living .

Take th e milk ques tion ,for ins tance . I saw an article th e o ther day

where a man ut in butter. He pa id 3 1 and 32 cents a .

pound for th e utter ; h e could no t se ll tha t butter in th e Americanmarke ts , and h e was forced to ship it to Europe an ports and go t only23 cents a pound for his butter.

Mr. H ILL . Have you any idea h ow much butter Canada produces ?Mr. GRANT . I have no t .

Mr. HILL . Have you any ide a h ow much sh e expo rtsMr. GRANT . I have no t .

Mr. HILL . Have you any ide a h ow much sh e imports ?Mr. GRANT . I have no t .

Mr. HILL . Then wha t grounds have you ,w ithout know mg those

facts , for expressing an op inion as to th e effe ct of Canadian re ci procitywith the U nited Sta tes on butter ? A s a ma tter of fact

, Canadaexported last ye ar enough butter to give the American people twothirds of 1 ounce in a ye ar, no t enough for a single breakfast forth e American people . They exported tha t to every coun try in theworld , taking it a ltoge ther. Now

,the export is ins ignifi cant , trivia l .

It is th e same with milk . It is th e same w ith all of those butterproducts ; th e have no t go t any surplus to amount t o any thing . Ifall the eggs tha t were ex orted from Canada to the U nited Stateswere sent to the city of ew York a lone

, each citizen of New Yorkcould have one egg in two ye ars and a half . How can it hurt us ?Mr. GRANT . I am no t very we ll posted on eggs .

Mr. HILL . My suggestion is th a t while we personally appreciatethe informa tion , I would like to have it based on facts and no t

surmises .

Mr. FORDNEY . Mr. Gran t , if all the eggs tha t th e gentleman hasmentioned came into th e State of New York

,o r into pra ctica lly one

port of entry, it would amount t o a gre a t de a l , would it no t ?Mr. GRANT . A s I understand it

, yes , sir.

Mr. FO RD NEY . A nd aga in ,when h e s e aks a b o ut the eggs , some

gentleman made a statement here the o t i er day tha t there were no tenough eggs coming into this country from Canada t o make one eggome le t for th e American pe ople . When h e began t o figure o ut howlong that egg ome le t would b e if it were stre t ched o ut in a na t ura l way ,

put up on a dish a t the Wa ldorf—A storia . it w o uld g o seven timesaround th e e arth . But le t me te ll the gen tleman this . tha t a t thepresent time there is a 5 - cent duty on cre am ; there is a :

35 - e ent dutyp er bushe l on po tatoes . a nd the statist ic s show tha t we importedonly bushe ls o f po ta toe s from Cana da la s t ve ar. Wh enpo tatoe s w e re on th e free list in 1 8 00 there w ere mo re than a thousandcarloads of po ta toe s coming from Canada. t o the ports o f entry ofP ort Huron and D e tro it , in the. S ta te o f Michig an ,

o ver

bushe ls through tho se. two p orts into th e S tate o f Mich igan . Therei s pro te c t ion now to tho se industrie s

, t o the American farmer.

Butput them on the fre e. list and th ev w ill make things blue .

RECIPROCITY W ITH CANAD A. 235

Mr. GRANT . It will certainly make th e farmers blue .

Mr. HILL . I will ask th e clerk t o give y ou a copy of th e reciprocitymessage and th e statistics . Y ou will fi nd th at we imported last yearfromCanada dozen eggs , and w e sent t o Canada dozen .

Mr. CALDERHEAD . I want t o suggest t o y ou that th e statistics willbear investiga ting .

Mr. FORDNEY . Those statistics were made by th e friends of the

measure .

Mr. GRANT . Gentlemen,I am very much obliged t o you .

(Thereupon ,at o

’clock p . m., th e committee adjourned until

to-morrow ,Thursdav

,Februarv 9 , 1 9 1 1 , at 10 o

’clo ck a . m. )

[Telegram ]

CO LU MB U S,OHIO ,

February 7 , 191 1 .

Hon . RA LPH D . CO LE ,

Member of Congress, Washington ,D . C

The Oh io Sta te Grange stands op p osed to any reciprocal rela tions tha t fail to protect the agricultural equal wi th oth er interests . Th erefore we are op posed to the

Canadian recip roci ty trea ty as now prop osed .

L . G. SPENCER,Chairman ,

EUGENE F . CRA N z , Secretary,Exec utive Commi ttee Ohio S ta te Grange.

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2 38 REC IPROC ITY WITH CANADA .

I understand that your commi ttee does no t w ish to hear a repeti

t ion of arguments on the genera l question of prote cti on, but to learn

of facts bearing on th e pending b ill . I w i ll there fore endeavor to

set be fore you briefly the essenti a l fe atures of th i s measure and their

relation t o the we l fare of the great agricultura l interests of the

country.

I w ish first to ca ll your a ttention to the fact tha t th e ra te of pro

tection gi ven by our present tari ff laws to farm products is muchlower than the duties on manu factured articles which th e farmerbuys . A n ana lysis of Schedule G of the tariff act of 1909 shows thaton th e staple products of th e so il the average ra te of duty is about2 5 p er cent . The average rate on imported manu factures i s about4 5 p er cent , and on many articles large ly consumed by the farmersthe rates are st il l higher. It is there fore clear tha t the farmers are

not rece iving th e same measure of protection as is g iven th e manufacturers.

In View of these undeniable facts the farmers have learned w ithamazement and indignation the proposition to abo lish the comparat ively sl ight protection now g iven them and t o establish free tradein practica lly everything that they produce . L et there b e no mistake about th e effect of this reciprocity bill . Th e only country fromwhich any considerable quantity of farm products can b e import edinto the U nited States is Canada . “T

e do no t fe ar the competitionof other countries. The purpose of the tariff on farm products hasbeen to exclude those of Canada from our markets, and if this billbecomes law it means the end of prote ction

,so far as the farmers

are concerned .

Th e next fact on which we base our protest aga inst this bill is thatit w ill subj ect us to the unfa ir competition of products which can b e

more cheaply produced in Canada than in this country. Th e Cana

d ian farmer pays much lower duties on h is machinery , implements,and manufactured goods, and under pre ferentia l trade ag reementsth e ma jority of these duties are greatly lower than th e schedule rates.

The cost of farm labor ismateria l ly less in Canada than in this country , thus putting our farmers a t a disadvantage in this respect. It isnotori ous that the prices of farm lands are far lower in Canadathan in the U nited States, and the Canadian farmer is there fore underless fixed charges on h is investment . Th e principa l farming sectionso f Canada are large ly virg in so il

,requiring no fertilizers, While the

farms in thi s country have long been cultivated , and large amountsof ferti l i zers are necessary . For these reasons it is sel f - evident thatth e cost of production must b e greater in the U nited States than inCanada .

P erhaps th e most important fact for your considera tion is thatthere are in the Canadian Northwest enormous areas of unoccupiedferti le pra i ri e lands, probably acres

, sell ing for a fewdo llars p er acre . L arge tracts of this land have been taken up byspeculators on both sides of th e boundary line

,and it was these speen

lators who started the ag itation for the free admi ssion of Canadianfarm roducts into th i s country , w ith the avowed purpose of ra isingthe va us of thei r lands.

_

I f,as the Canadian advocates of reciprocity

contend , the e ffect of thi smeasure will b e to greatly increase the valueo f Canadian farm lands, i t is clear that it can only do so by decreasing the va lue of our farms.

REC IPROC ITY WITH CANADA . 239

In view of these facts, which can no t b e denied , the mani fest resultof this bill , i f it becomes law ,

w il l b e to abo lish all the pro tectionnow g iven th e farmers, and leave them open to th e free competitionof products which under existing conditions can b e more cheaply

grown in Canada than in this country . The advocates of reciprocitydo not deny that Canadian farm products w i ll to a large extent d isplace the produce of our farms ; on the contrary

,they try to justi fy

the measure by cla iming tha t it w ill reduce the cost of those productsto the consumer. A s aga inst this cla im I w ish to submit certa infacts set forth in th e A nnua l Report of th e Secretary of A griculturefor 19 10, pages 1 9—26. A s the result of a care ful investigation of the

increase of rices o f farm products in the ir transfer to th e consumer,

Secretary ilson shows that th e difference between the price pa idthe farmer, and the cost to th e consumer is in many cases from 4 0

to 50 per cent . For instance , it w as found that the poultry growerreceived only p er cent of the price pa id by th e consumer ; thatthe da iryman receives a scant 50 p er cent of the price pa id for mi lk ;the apple grower, p er cent ; that bee f cost the consumer 38 p ercent more than the price pa id th e great slaughtering houses ; and

other farm produce from 4 1 to 50 p er cent over the orig ina l cost .The conclusion of this section of Secretary Wilson’

s report is :

From th e de ta i ls th a t h ave b een presented w ith reg a rd to th e increa se of t h e

prices of farm products b e tween farmer and consumer, th e conclus ion is inevitab le t h a t t h e consumer h a s no w e ll—ground ed comp la int a ga inst th e fa rmer fort he prices th a t. he p ay s.

A fter cons id era t ion of t h e e lements of t h e ma t ter. i t is p la in th a t t h e farmeris not gett ing an exorb itant p rice for h is products and th a t th e cost of d istrib ut ion from th e t ime of d e livery a t d est ina t io n b y t h e ra i lroad to d eliveryto th e consumer is th e fea ture of t h e p rob lem of h igh prices wh ich must p resenti tself to th e consumer fo r trea tment .

Mr. BOU TELL . R ight there , Mr. W itness , 1 would like to ask you

a quest ion.

Mr. MCCA LL . W il l you no t let h im finish be fore you ask questions ?Mr. BOU TELL . I think my question would come in a little more log

ically in this conne ction ,i f there is no obj ection .

Mr. MCCA LL . Very wel l .Mr. BOU TELL . R ight on that matter of the cost of distribution,

we

had a w itness here yesterday , representing th e farmers of northernNew York, and h e gave these figures Price of milk to the farmer,3 cents, in h is county.

Mr. JONES . Y es .

Mr. BOU TELL . Pri ce pa id by th e consumer in New York, 9 cents, oran advance of 200 p er cent ; a much greater advance than any of

those figures pointed out by the Secretary of A griculture .

Mr. JONES . Y es ; much larger.

Mr. BOU TELL . Now ,can you te ll what those figures are for mi lk

to the farmer in Indiana,and th e amount pa id by the consumer, say ,

in Indianapo l is and Chicago ?Mr. JONES . Well , in Chicago it is a l ittle more than 50 p er cent on

the milk on the milk tra ins that run from Indiana to Chicago . Now,

I understand tha t this is a genera liza tion of the entire problem.

It differs in different sections of th e country, as in your New Yorkinstance ; as in New Eng land .

24 0 REC IPROC ITY W i TH CA NA D A .

Mr. BOU TELL . We ll,in that New York inst ance , is that d i fference

of 200 p er cent caused by th e sma l l price that the farmer gets, orby th e relat ively

'la rg er price p a id by the consumerMr.

JON ES .I t arises from two causes ; first , th e pri ce to the farmer

is too low ; tha t is , less than the co st of product i on.

Mr.BOU TELL . Wh at does the Indiana farmer g et for mi lk ?

M r.JO NES . He gets abou t th e same price , about 3 cents:

Mr. BOU TELL . Wh a t does the consumer p ay now in Ch i cago ?Mr. J uN i cs . Th e consumer pays 8 cents in Chicag o .

Mr. Bu e EL L . It is very nearly, then , the same thing ?M r.

JON ES . Y es ; very nearly . The mi lk producers in our State , inthe sma ller towns, g et a b out 3 cents for the ir milk , and i t retai ls for6 and 7 cents, usua lly (5 cents ; an increase of from 50 to 100 per

cent . Then I ma inta in tha t there are other problems ; th eop rob lem

of transportation ,commissions, and exchanges , all enter into this

problem of th e high cost of farm l iving , and when i t i s charged toth e farmer i t is e rroneous and wrong , and places the farmer at a

serious disadvantage be fore the public ; and it ra ises the questionbe fore th e consumers in th e sma l l towns

.the men who are working

in th e factories , and they charge this home to the farmer wh en it

should belong to the other fel lows, and it is a serious wrong .

Mr. D W i u i - i'

r. Is it no t true that th e Borden company , w ith overo f cap it a l , h as to have its percentag e ?

Mr. JONES . What is that ?Mr. D W JGHT . Is it no t true that the Borden company h as to make

a percentag e off of it ?Mr. JONES . That is all right.Mr. D W IGHT . Th e farmer h as no objection to that ?Mr. JONES . “Te are w i l ling to re ceive anything that makes a fa ir,

reasonable profit for us.

Mr. D W IGHT. Y ou are not obj ecting to that , then.

Mr. JONES . Certa inly no t . No ; it is not the tariff on farm productsthat is responsible for th e high cost of food , but th e excessive freightcharges of th e ra ilway s . and th e exorbitant profits of the cominiSSi onhouses

,who lesa le dea lers

,and reta ilers

,through whose hands farm

products must pass to reach th e consumer.

I have submi tted these. facts for the purpose of showing the seriousinj ury to th e farming interests tha t would fo llow the enactment ofthis bill . Wh at compensation does this measure O ffer th e farmers forthe loss of the very moderate prote ct ion now g iven them ? D oes itmaterially reduce th e burden of high pro tect ive duties which the

farmer is comp e lled to p ay on a ll the manu factured goods h e uses ?Not a t a ll. Th e pretended reduction of duties on Canadian manufactured goods is a fraud and a sham. No duty is removed or t e

duced on Canadian manu factures that w il permit O f the ir generalimportation for use by our farmers.

A n a ttempt h as been made to fo ol th e farmer b y remov ing the

duty from stee l w ire and W ire fenc ing . But C anadamakes p ractica lly no W i re and o nly so ld to this country last y ear aboutpounds, while we rxp orted t o Canada more than pounds.

The remova l of th i s duty wil l not reduce the cost of fence w ire in thesl i ghtest

.

degree , and the same is true of th e other manufacturedarticles in the recip ro c ity sche dule . Canada is not a manu facturingcountry in th e same sense that the U nited States

, Great Brita in, and

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24 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

manufa c turing inte re st s in thi s c o untry , d o not ll ll tlt ‘l‘h iv

illld thisl l

‘

u‘

ument ? D o y o u b e l ie ve th a t the y w ill tame l y submit ? never.

Mr. U N D Eim'

oiu) . W ill y o u let me a sk y ou a quest ion there'

4

M r. J O N ES . Y es .

Mr. U N D ERW U U D . If the y are no t e o ing t o submit , a re they go ingto he lp th e D emo c ra t ic party pull d own t he t ariff ?Mr.

JON ES . They w o uld help t h e devi l , b e fore th ev w ould a llowthemse lve s to b e abused b y th e ir friends .

Mr. U N nEinvo o n. Th ev p ro p o se to reduc e th e duties on manufac

fured p roducts, t hen ?

Mr. JO N ES . Certainly, they w i ll do it ; and just as sure as this billbecomes law . y ou cut from under y o ur tariff pro t ect ion a ll its support .

Mr. U N D ERW OOD . That is good .

Mr. JON ES . A nd th e men wh o make th e law—the men who voteupon this law—w i ll b e he ld responsible for it , more than parties.

Now, gentlemen ,

I trust that there w il l b e no misunderstandingas to the position o f the farmers in this ma tter. The y be lieve thatthey are entit led to exactly the same me asure of pro tection as the

manufacturers. We can not get it on what w e export,but. we can

keep th e o ther fel lows out . They are not now rece iving equa l p rot ection

,and th e pending measure proposes t o make the discrimina

tion a ga inst them still more unjus t by e stablishing . to all intentsand purposes

,free trade in fa rm products , while making no redue

tion o f duties on manufactures tha t w i l l decrease the cost t o the

farmer.

Mr. R AN D ELL . Your idea is to keep th e farmers products out . so

tha t they w i ll no t comp ete with you ?Mr. JON ES . How is that ?Mr. R A N D ELL . It is your idea to keep th e farm products from

Canada from coming in here so that they w il l no t compe te w ith you ?Mr. JON ES . No

, Si r ; let them p ay for our market . Th ev l ive ina country where they have cheaper lands

,cheaper t axes . and less

cost for labor. “’e are supporting an entire ly different condit ion of

things, and let them p ay for our market . That is wha t they oughtto do ; t he same as every foreigner ; i f h e wants t o come in , let h imthrow out th e St ars and Stripes , and let them floa t over that country .

and then h e can come in,and we are perfectly w ill ing to let h im.

A g ainst this proposition we e arnestly protest , and we insist thatthere sha l l b e no free trade for th e fa rmers and high ta riff for themanufacturers

,but th a t i f farm products 0 0 on the free list . manu

fact ured articles mu s t a ls o b e made free . and they w ill . inside of a

very short t ime .

STATEMENT OF MR . J OHN NORRIS.

Mr. Mr. Norris . the commi tte e w i l l hear y o u now . i ll

you g ive t he c ommittee some idea o f h ow much time yOu w il l require ?Mr. No ams . Fo r my s ta tement . o f co urse e xcluding interruptions,

whi c h I c an no t me a sure . I ran fi u’sli ins ide o f 2 7»minut e s .

M r.( in ahe ad .

M r. Nomus . Mr. Cha irman. I reg a rd the C anad ian reciprocityi g reeme ut now b e fo re y o u a s the g

'

i'

ea te s t e conomic advance thath as b e e n ma d e b y th e U nit ed S tates in the present g eneration.

Itb ro ade ns o ur ma rket ; it p e rmits interchang e s that w il l immediatelvi ll tl d ire c t ly bene fit 00 p er cent of th e p opula t ion ,

REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 4 3

I appear as the represent ative of newspapers which p ay more thanper annum for news print paper. They are deeply con

cerned in the paper- and - pulp clause of the treaty,and they ask you

t o approve that clause exactly as it appears in the agreement .The tang le of the American Government with Canadian Provinces

and the tari ff burdens imposed upon print paper have added morethan p er annum to the price which newspapers would p ayfor raw materia l under norma l conditions. The complication w ithCanada and the excessive duty have enabled American paper makersto combine for advance in print - paper prices. They have an organization that is more oppressive and more elusive than the Genera lP aper CO . which th e Government suppressed in 1 906. The papermakers are systematica lly starving th e market. Th e entire stock ofpaper on hand at th e b eg innin of this year was less than an 8 - daysupply for the newspapers of t i e country . In December, 19 10, theyexported more print paper than Canada shipped to us.

The president of the U nion Bag P aper Co .

, Mr. Edgar G.

Barrett , in an interview printed last A ugust , a copy of which I nowsubmit , gave deta ils of th e me thods by which the larger papercompanies reduced their production to 35 p er cent of their norma loutput to allow weaker mil ls to get a market . Th e president of theAmerican P aper P ulp A ssoc iation on July 1 1

, 19 10, issued a

letter to the papermakers urg ing curta ilment of production ; a copyof that letter I now furnish to th e committee . The Wrapping P aperPoo l advanced prices to th e extent of p er annum,

pleadedguilty in the U nited States court . and p a id a fi ne . The Box BoardPoo l also pleaded gui lty and pa id a fi ne . Both these interests are

affected by this paper clause . The West Virg inia P ulp P aper Co .

,

according to a recent announcement,increased its capita l stock to

P aper salesmen report that when that comp anychanges its prices th e other book paper mil ls fol low within 24 hours.

The paper makers established a statistica l bureau , ostensibly to

ascert a in the condition of the market. We welcome the in formationgathered by that bureau , but we ob ject to the use which the papermakers have been making of it to regulate prices. A simultaneousreduction recently of $3 p er ton by the sulphite - pulp makers wasevidence of concerted action by them in price fixing .

A ll but 2 of the 50 print - paper makers of th e country are vio latingthe Sherman law by restricting the use to which the paper they sel

can b e put . No print paper can b e bought f . o . b .mil l unless the nameof the buyer, the destination of the paper, and th e use to which it isto b e put are disclosed, as wel l as the assurance that the buyer hasno contract w ith any other mil l . Here are all th e essentials of a

gentleman’s agreement. I have been unable to buy paper from the

paper mil ls, a lthough I Offered spo t cash for del ivery f . o . b . mi ll .During the ast summer the largest paper companies

.

re fused to

quote paper or 19 1 1 at.

any price . To - day it is impossible forthelarger newspapers to obta in quotations from more than one mi ll atany price. The largest buyer in the country, who uses tonsper annum, wil l prob ably p ay an increase of per annum forhis paper because of th e methods of the papermakers .

Since the passage of the P ayne - A ldrich law,though th e dut on

print paper had been reduced p er ton, that is from $6 toper ten, the paper combination h as advanced pri ces p er ton

2 4 4 REC lP ROCITY W ITH CA NA D A .

and threa tens further advances. Publishers whose contrac ts are expiring fi nd that th ey can no t ge t any terms except from th e mi llwhich h ad supplied them. A uni form pri ce o f $4 5 per t o

n h as beene sta b lishe d by th e p ap e r makers . It makes no d i fi erence what thefre ight ra te is w ithin a g iven zone .

.\ lr.Barrett

,in an interview in London , h ad urged the Bri ti sh

ma nufa cturers to adop t a similar p rice o f $4 5 p er t on. P ap er has

be en so ld a bro ad by th e p apermakers a t less than th e domest i c pri ce .

The p resident o f the A merican P ulp and P aper A ssoci at i on disclosed to your committe e in November 1908 , tha t h is paper mill atNia g ara Fa lls

,on an investment of h ad pa id dividends

regularly and h ad accumulated a surplus of That mil l isan antique . The Internationa l P aper C o . acqu i red 1 1 1 paper ma

chines 1 3 years ago ; it h as sold or diverted many of them,and has

less than 67 machines now making print paper. In 13 years it hasadded only 2 machines to its equipment . Th e ave rage capacity of

its machines is 2 1 tons p er day p er machine , whereas modern ma

chines turn out 56 tons p er day .

Foreign pulp h as displaced A merican pulp in A merican papermills because of th e primitive conditions which preva il in Americanmills . Only 67 p er cent of th e wood which reaches an Americanpap er mi ll is converted into print paper. A n A merican print papermill requires 1 10 p ounds o f raw materia l to make 100 pounds of

paper,whereas Eng l ish and German mills require 103 pounds of

raw materia l t o make 100 pounds o f print paper. Th e w aste of woodand of ma teria l and th e b ad workmanship , due t o lack of technica lequipment

,add over p er annum to th e cost of print p a er

which publishers must p ay . This w aste is a ttributable to the fizict

tha t the paper combinations and th e paper tari ff have enervated theAmerican paper maker. Neverthe less th e modern papermills in theU n ited S tates make print paper cheaper than the Canadian mills.

The price of print paper h as been advanced nearly 50 p er cent , thatis from $32 to $4 5 p er ton , since th e combination of 32 mi lls into theInternationa l P ap er Co . occurred in January , 1 8 9 8 .

The increase o f p er ton in price of print paper made b y thepaper makers since th e reduction in duty under t he P ay ne - A ldrichlaw h as been ma inta ined in face of a temporary g lut in the pulpwood market

,w ith a re cent drop in rice of pulp wood of $3 p er

cord , or p er ton of paper. I re er you to th e statement madeby Mr. James R . Mann to the House of R epresent a t ives June 3 . 19 10,for the in formation respecting the restrictions on pulp - wood exportation imposed by each of th e provinces of Canada .

A t th e instigation of th e print - pap e r makers th e A merican Congress a ttempted to impose coercive me asure s upon th e P rovince ofQuebec . Th e d isa stro u s results of th at policy are now seen in thew ithdra wa l by Que b ec. of 9 5 p er cent of a ll th e ava ilable pulp - woodsup ply of that P rovince . It h a s been try ing to starve the Americanmills and to force the ir trans fer to Quebe c. The paper clause of the

p ending recip ro c ity agreement overcomes all the diffi cult ies of thatsitua tion.

Th e snarl w ith the Provinces of C anada h as been comp letelvavo ided by an enti rely new turn to the stipulations

, which now fo llowthe wood—not the P rovince . I f w ood is free from restriction

,such

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2 4 6 REC IPROC ITY W ITH C A NA D A .

quired about square mi les of timber rights in Canada . Its

representative to ld the congressiona l committee in 1 908 that he hadfigured out a profit of on i ts t imber hold ings. It concealed the low cost of its paper making by wash entri es of the pri ceit pa id to its subsidiary companies. The figures submi tted by i t to

the U nited States Senate in June , 1909 , when compared w ith thefigures furnished by it to the M ann committee , wi l l disclose thatdeception.

The amendment to the paper section proposed by the pap ermakersis intended to nulli fy , and w ill , i f ado ted , nulli fy everv effort tostra ighten the pulp - wood tang le w ith anada .

Mr. LONGWORTH . What amendment do y ou re fer t o ?Mr. NORRIS. The amendment proposed by Mr. Hall .Mr. LONGWORTH . Here , th e other day ?Mr. NORRIS . Here , th e other day ; tha t is right . The paper

makers would pass a long the additiona l co st of their wood and wouldthrust upon the ultimate consumer the burden of the immense increases in th e cost of pulp wood . I f th e paper-makers’ figures re

specting the quantity of ava i lable private land in Canada are correct,

that is 1 p er cent of the t ota l area , then this treaty clause which permitsi1free paper only wh en made from free wood can not b e injuri ous

to t em.

Gentlemen. I thank you for th is opportunity to make a statement.Mr. FORD NEY . D id I understand your figures right ? D id you

say cords of wood h ad been imported ? Y ou ment ioned a

minute3g

o th e number of cords imported from deeded lands, didyou not .

Mr. NORRIS . The number of cords from what ?Mr. FORD N EY. The pulp wood and pulp . Y ou gave the figures 3

minute ago . W as it cords that have been imported ?Mr. NORRIS. Nine hundred and th irty - one thousand cords of pulp

wood ; and w ith the mechanica l pulp and chemica l pulp,it made a

total of cords.

Mr. FORD NEY. N ine hundred and thirty - one thousand cords ?Mr. NORRIS. O f pulp wo od .

Mr. FORD NEY. O f wood . Now , h ow did your figures agree w iththose g iven by Mr. Hugo the oth er day as to the amount of woodnecessary for the production of a ton of paper ?Mr. Noums . He says tons. Th e Treasury Department and all

of the authorities agree th at c o rd s of wo od make 1 ton of paper.

FORD NEY. He sa id 15 ?Mr. NORRIS . He sa id O ne and four- tenth s is accurate . and that.

is the fi g ure th a t contro ls th e Trea sury Department.Mr. FO RD NEY . Then th e pa per made from the cords would

b e j ust two - thirds that in tons of pa p er p ro duced , would it not ?Mr. No n-me. Substant ially .

Mr. FORD N EY. That is , acco r ding to h im ?

.\ Ir. Nomns . In p a pe r of some kind : no t necessari ly print paper.

Mr. FORD NEY . Y e s ; wha teve r it w as . It d o es not take any morew o o d to make a t o n o f o th e r kind s of p aper ?Mr. NORRIS . I f it wa s c u lfl

’

el'te tl int o print, papen of course it,

would b e that , upon th e a ssumpt ion of 1 1 tons . sl ightly more thanupon the

REC IP ROC ITY W ITH C A N A D A . 24 7

Mi . FORD N EI . “'

cll, it w ould no t b e 3 e imu lr N ( w, y o u sue

0 c ted that th e Inte inat iona l P ape i Co . h ad a p i o fi t on its landsof how much ?Mr. Norms .

Mr. FORD NE i . That h as been estimated : h as it no t ?U r. NORRIS Tha t w as their estimate made b y \ Ii . Lyman.

Ithink it w as be fore the ay s and Means Commi ttee

,on November

7 1 . 1 906,when h e fui nish ed tha t infOIni a t ion .

Mr. FORD N EY . How many :l t l t‘S of w o odland did vou sav thosepeop le owned in C anada ?Mr. NORRIS . A pproximate ly square miles.

Mr. FORD N EY. Four thousand square mi les ?

\ Ir. NORRIS . They cont i ol, alt o ge th e i , in the U nited St a tes andCanada , between and t ,000 square mi les of t imb er. l b e y havethree t imes the quant ity necessary fo i th e supply o f the i i presentoutput in perpet uity .

\ Ir. FORD N EI . Four thousand square mi les ; that w ould b eacres ?Mr. NORRIS . Y es .

Mr. FORD N EY . In other words,about $4 p er acre profit

,that would

b e ?

Mr. NORRIS . What do you me an ?‘i FORD N EI . p i o fi t ?

Mr. NORRIS . “fel l,no ; you me con founding two things. In addi

tion to this land in Canada these timbe i rights, they ha 3 e immensetracts in the U nit ed States which they own i n fee .

\ Ir. FORD N EY . I am Speaking of what they own in Canada .

Mr. NORRIS . The statement which h e made w as that their t imberho ldings a ltogether

FORD \ EY . In this country and in Canada ?\ 11 . NORRIS . In this country and in Canada ; in Ma ine

,New Hamp~

shire,Vermont

,and New York

\ Ir. FOP D V EY ha t they own in this country cuts no figure inth is argument . “

T

e are ta lking about in Canada .

Mr. NORRIS . I am ta lking about sp eculations in woodlands, and

about th e fact that , instead of appl3 ing th e money they have inlegitima te business d ,

eve lopment and g iving us th e benefit of th e

profit,th ey h ave been sp endin o money on investments in C anadian

lands and h a i e not added b ut tw o mach ines in 10 y ears, and are

now running on 2 1 tons cap acity , when the modern machines are

making 56 tons p er day .

\ lrb

FORD N EY . Have you any right. t o crit icize any man for h is

i h 3 estments in this country or i nywhere e lse ?

\ lr. NORRIS . I have a right to criticise the Inte i nat i ona l P aper Co .

and the paper makers of this count i 3 because of th e fact that th eyare tariff beneficiaries . The Gove rnment has undert aken to pro te ctand nurse and coddle them.

Mr. FORD N EY A re you not a b ene fi ciai y ?Mr. NORRIS . They are under an oblig ation\ Ir. FORD N EY. I asked you a question.

Mr. NORRIS . They are under an obliga t ion to see th at at least theneeds of th e market and of the consumer a i e assured , and that themarket i s not starved and that they do no t participate in the agree

ments by which prices are ma inta ined at the expense of the consumer.

24 8 REC IP RO C ITY W ITH C A N A D A .

Mr. FORD N EY. In other words, you are o f opinion th a tf

th ey oughtto furnish a nurse and bo ttle for you and t ake care o f you

6

Mr. NORRIS . No ; we need no care takers. They are th e ones thath ave been t aken care of.

Mr. FORD NEY . I f you do no t w ant to b e taken care of. what are

you kicking about ?Mr. NORRIS . Because they are stopping our supply , and they are

coming in here and asking this commit tee of Congress to st opo

the

supply of pul p wo od and stop the further deve lopment of A meri canpaper industry .

Mr. HILL . C an you no t put in these improved mach ines ?Mr. NORRIS . We are go ing t o .

Mr. HILL . Y ou could p ut in 200 o f them i f y ou w anted to ?Mr. NORRIS . “

'

e are go ing to p ut them in and be abso lutely independent O f these p eople .

Mr. FORD N EY. Who h as advocated th e stopp in g o f the importationo f pulp wood and paper into this country ?Mr. NORRIS . Who h as what ?Mr. FORD N EY . Who h as advocated stopping its comma in ? “Tho

h as advoca ted the stopping of the shipp ing from Canada into thiscountry of pulp wood ? Y ou made tha t statement a minute ago . thatthese people were h ere asking for it . Wh o are they ?Mr. NORRIS . Mr. Ha ll

,represent ing ostensibly th e Internationa l

P aper Co .,b ut actua lly representing the combination of paper

makers .

Mr. FORD N EY. M r. Norris,do you know th a t no l iving soul ever ap

p eared be fore this committee wh o asked that a prohibit ion b e putupon Canadian pulp wood coming into this countrv ?Mr. NORR IS . D irectly : no .

Mr. FORD N EY. Either direct ly or indire ctly .

Mr. NORRIS . But th e practica l applica t ion O f the amendment whichthey proposed would simply check and stop th e who le thin g

Mr. FORD NEY . Oh , Mr. Norris"Mr. NORRIS . I do no t mean from private lands ; no .

Mr. FORD N EY. There are no private lands to amount to any thingin Canada , and yo u know it , i f you know any thing about it .Mr. NORRIS . I know that y ou do no t know

,for th e re ason that

while you are ta lking of Ontario , you are no t t a lking w ith knowl~edge of th e P rovince of Quebec .

Mr. FORD N EY. I w il l submit my case to this commit tee , as to whoknows mo re about the matter, you or I . D O no t let us argue aboutthat .

Mr. NO RRIS . NO .

Mr. FORD N EY . I h ave been in the business there , and vou do notcla im to have been ,

do y o u ?

M r. NoRRIs . I ha ve b een buy ing pap er, and I have been trave lingth ro ugh Queb ec a nd O nta rio a nd New Brunsw ick , and study ingthis part ic ular sub j e c t : fo r 12 y ea rs a ltogether,

but(

three y ears re

cently , w i th deep c o nce rn and kee n interest .

Mr. Fo nnxrzv . Mr. No rris , y ou w e re here two y ears ago advoca t ing fre e print p a pe r,

w ere yo u no t ?Mr. NORRIS . I was ; and proud of it .

Mr. FORD N EY. “'

hv did y o u w ant it ?

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2 50 BECIPROCITY W ITH CA NA D A .

\ Ir. NORRIS .I th ink th e y w il l as soon as th ey can get the Op p or

tunity .

\ Ir. FORD N EY . hy do they no t do it now ?Mr. NORRIS . S ir ?

Mr. FOR D N EI . W’

l1y do they no t do i t now ?

M i . NORRIS . Because th e y can no t g et in th e market .

VIr. I‘ORD N EY . “7 11 3 , t h e differenceb

in cost Of wood you have got3vi ll more than o flset th e dutV .

Mr. NORRIS . S ir ?

Mr. FORD N EY . Th e di fference in th e cost of wood , enough wood tomake a t on Of print paper in Canada on any of this wood in thiscountry to day , i n a p aper mill, w ill O ffset theydifference in duty.

Mr. NORR IS . Excuse me ; it w i l l not .

Mr. FORD NEY. Tha t i s wh at y ou sa id a minute ago ; or about that .

Mr. NORRIS . I sa id that up - to date Ame i ican mil ls w ill make papermore cheaply than th e CanadiansMr. FORD N EY . But y ou sa idMr. NORR IS . But offsetting this item of w ood are supplies ad

vantages in labor, more effi cient labor In th e U nited S tate s. and dide ience in the cost of transportation ,

which enab le th e American mills,l ike th e Grea t Northern and th e St . Cro ix and th e Berlin mills tomake paper a t approxima te ly $25 a ton ,

which is much less than any

Canadian mill can make it for, notw ithstanding their advanta oe on

the wood .

Mr. FORD N EY . D o you mean to say that labor is ch eap e i in the

U nited Sta te s than it is in th e mills of Canada ?Mr. NORR IS . I mean to say that the skilled labor in the Canadian

mi lls h a s been pa id more than that in th e U nited States mills. b y

reason of the fact that the skilled labor mus t come from th e U nitedStates ; it is here , and they must offer inducements to those men toleave h ome and country and go there to make p aper.

Mr. FORD N EY. They are inte lligent people in Canada . are they not ?

Mr. NORRIS . Th e papermakers, the skilled workers in th e Canadian

mills,come from the U nited States.

Mr FORD N EY . How long doe s it take a man to become skilled inth e manu facture of paper, especia lly a t ordinar3 labor—commonl abor ? Is common labor over there as high priced as it is hei e or

is i t no t ?

Mr. NORRIS . I think it is no more effi cient . I think that the fi g uresof th e labor cost p er ton of paper, as gathered b y th e Mann Committee

,established th at the

Mr. FORD N EY . Have y ou employed labor over there , and vet vou

do not know ?MI . NORRIS (continuing ) Established that the co st w as no g reater

h ere than there , and in m 1nv mi lls 33 as lessMr. G 3 1N RS . M I

‘ Nori is, that is a conclus ion . I would like to

h ave an answ er

Mr. No RRIs . No . That is facts furnished b y th e Mann committee ,

Mr. GA IN ES . Give us a little ch ance .

.\ lr. NO RRIS . C erta inly .

Mr. GA IN ES . I f you p lea se . The i c is no o ccasion for excitement ,hII‘. NO IIMlS Be p e i fect l3 co o l . \ l1‘. FO l ta Y s quest iou 33 as whetherth e 33 a e e s were la i g er o r s n1 1lle i in C : :1 11 1da . Y ou have answered

REC IPROC ITY 3vITH CA NA D A . 251

about your conclusion as t o th e unit of cost . P lease g ive us thefacts about the labor, and le t us draw our conclusions.

Mr. NORRIS . Y ou are asking me about cost . Y ou were asking meabout the cost, and then about the unit of labor.

Mr. GA INES . I am not asking you about the unit of labor. A s Isay again, do not be excited . P lease answer the quest ion. A rewages greater or less in Canada ? P lease answer that , and do not

give us y our conclusions.

Mr. NORRIS . I think on skilled labo r they have been higher, in a

number of th e mills. Th e last time I t oo k that up was at the timewhen the P ayne - A ldrich bill was under discussion, and in many of

the mills th e Canadian p ay w as higher than the averag e in the

Mr. GA IN ES. Let me ask you a question there .

Mr. NORRIS. Le t me answer th is first .

Mr. GA INES . No ; you have sa id what you h ave to sav—j ust whatyou know .

Mr. MCCA LL. D o not repeat your answer.

Mr. NORRIS. I am not go ing to repea t th e answer.

Mr. FORD NEY. Tha t is all right.Mr. NORRIS . I sa id at tha t. t ime in th e State of New York , where

the reatest quantity o f p aper is made , according to the statistics ofthe tate bureau , the labor emplo y ed in th e paper mills was pa idless than any other class of organized labor in th e State.

Mr. GA INES . Let me p ut this question. Now,w il l you answer the

quest ion : IS common labor in Canada pa id more or less than in

America ?Mr. NORRIS. I do not know . I assume it is pa id less . and is less

effi cient.Mr. FORDNEY . Then y ou do not know anything about it ? Y ou are

merelygiving your opinion ? W"

.

Mr. I\ ORRIS . I gathered the data frOI‘Ihg eac

‘

ayap er mill in Canadaat the time of that P ayne - A ldrich discussion , and submitted it in print,and have here ready for th e committee a compilation showing the

pay of each class of labor in ea ch mill , Canadian and American .

Mr. U NDERWOOD . W ill vou fi le that w ith your remarks ?Mr. NORRIS. Y es.

Mr. FORD N EY. I want th e s tenographer t o note , please , that Iasked the gentleman what he knew about it . He is here to g ive informat ion to the commit tee . He states that h e thinks, but does notknow.

Mr. GA INES. He assumes.

Mr. FORD NEY. He assumes, b ut does no t know . I want that to goin the record .

Mr. Norris,h ave you h ad any experience in th e manu facturing of

print paper as a manu facturer or superintendent of an insti tuti on ?

Mr. I\ 0RRIS. A s a consumer o f paper, and at one t ime th e largestbuyer in th e U nited Sta tes , I have h ad occasion for 12 y ears t o

closely study the costs of paper making .

Mr. FORD NEY. Have you been a rece iver or in some way connectedwith the handling or manag ing of a paper company Since you werehere two years ago ?Mr. NORRIS. I am g lad that you re ferred to that .Mr. FORDNEY. I am g lad to please y ou some way . [L aughter. ]

2 52 REOIP ROOITY W ITH C A N A D A .

Mr. NORRIS . I am glad you did . O n July 7 , 1 9 10, I w a s appo intedreceiver o f the Boston Hera ld

,a new spap er which h ad i nvo lved i tself

in financia l difficulties. In th e d iscussion in June , 1 909 , at th e sug

g estion o f a U nited Sta tes S enato r, th e Internationa l.

P aper Co .

arrang ed t o set up scenery that would just i fy i ts act i on i n rai s

ing th e rate above that recommended by the Mann commi tteea nd passed by the House . It obta ined from that Boston newspapera letter prep ared by th e Internatio na l P a p er C o and transmi tted itto the Senate committee , as the pro test of a newspaper aga i nst anyd isturbance of

,or interference w ith , the paper-making interests of

New Eng land . Th e seque l you have . That letter a lso re ferred t o mystatements as being utterly va lueless . It is a sad fat a lity that theman who was attacked by that new sp aper was appo inted to take holdo f it and re adjust its finances and save the wreck that had been madeof it .Mr. FORD NEY . D id h e save it ?Mr. NORR IS . Sure .

Mr. BOU TELL . I did no t understand y ou. IVas it th e InternationalP aper Co . tha t put th e Boston Hera ld into bankruptcy ?Mr. NORRIS . It did . It h ad been carrying th e paper a long formore

than fi ve months on its paper bills .

Mr. BOU TELL . A nd you were appo inted rece iver of that paper ?Mr. NORRIS . I was appo inted , no t because th e Internationa l P aper

CO . loved me more than any o ther new spaper man , b ut because I wasava ilab le a t. that time for th e purpose of the rece ivership ; and I am

p roud to say that I th ink I justified the app ointment .Mr. BOU TELL . But you were appo inted on th e recommenda t ion of

th e Internationa l P aper CO . ?

Mr. NORR IS . I was appo inted on the application of the Internat iona l P ap er CO .

Mr. FORD N EY . Y ou Were ‘

pn a representa t ive of the Internationa lP aper Co . for some t i

‘

Ixil nt

Mr. NORRIS . I was not . I was th e representa t ive of all the

creditors .

Mr. FORD N EY. A re you a representat ive of the Internationa l P aperC o . now ? [L aughter.]Mr. NORR IS . I am a fra id tha t you are a j oker.

Mr. FORD N EY . We l l,that is what my w i fe say s when she is pro

voked . [L aughter. ] But let me ask you this : Since the P ayneA ldrich tariff bill became a law . in wh ich the duty on print paperh as been lowered

,h ave th e newspapers of this country lowered their

advertising rates to the p eo p le , to the merchants o f the country ?Mr. NORRIS . Tha t would b e very difficult to answer.

Mr. FORD N EY. A s a paper man . as wel l versed in the business as

you seem t o b e,and cla im y ou are , you oug ht to know that .

Mr. NORRIS . That would mean t o keep track o f from tonewspapers as to just wha t they are do ing . “

T

herever thev can geti t o n equa l class ific a t io n , whe re the ir circulat ion justifies it

,

‘

they willdo it , and wh ere it is nec e ssary to meet compe t it ion they w i ll meet.compet i t i on.

Mr. FORD N EY. . \ s you have lwo n g iv ing opinions only , h ave y ou anv

Object io ns t o g iving an Opinion o n that ?Mr. NO RRIS . No ; I h ave been g iving just a few facts.

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2 54 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. MCC A LL . In connection w ith tha t,I w ould ca l l your attention

to a bill tha t w as introduced and is now p end ing before th i s com

mit tee , introduc ed by Mr. M ann on th e 0th of December, 1909 ,wherein h e say s tha t p rinting pap er, and so forth , sh a ll b e admi ttedinto t he U nited S t a t e s free of duty when imported from the Dominion Of C anada , being the p roduct thereo f , on th e cond i t i on precedentt ha t ne ither th e D ominion of C anada nor a P rovince or other sub

d ivision o f government thereo f ” —that i s , this bill was drawn on

t he theory of tha t amendment .

Mr. NORRIS . No . There is this distinction which you make . Thatd ealt w ith each P rovince . Y ou are dea l ing w ith all th e P rovincesin that amendment . Tha t is one po int .

Mr. MCCA LL . I w ill read th e w ords of the bill : O n th e conditionprecedent that ne ither th e D ominion o f C anada nor th e Province or

o ther subdivision of g overnment thereo f where the same is in wholeor in p art produced or manufactured . and from which it is importedinto the U nited States, forbids or re s tricts ,

”and so forth .

Th a t means apply ing to th e po lit ica l s ubdivision from which it isimport ed .

Mr. BO U TELL. I would like to a sk a few questions,Mr. Cha irman.

Mr. M CCA LL . I am through .

Mr. NORRIS . M ay I , be fore finishing ,M r. McCall, re fer to th e sec

ond amendment , where in the dra ft O f the treaty re fers t o th e woodused in the manufacture . The amendment is “

or any wood usedin th e U nited States in the manufacture .

”It is the difference b e

tween free wood and a ll wood in C anada . U nder Mr. Ha l l'

s amendment it must me an th a t no reduction can b e made

,tha t no st ep can

b e t aken,un ti l everv P rovince of Canada sha ll have removed its

restrict ionMr. U N D ERW OOD . I do no t know whe ther I understand y ou cor

rectly . D o y ou approve of the suggestions made b y Mr. Ha ll,or do

vou disapprove of them ?Mr. NORRIS . I abso lutely disapprove

,and say that it would not

only null i fy but destroy every prospect of everything of the kind ,

and w ould precipita te more aggression . Th e proud and mightyU nited States Government h as a lready bent its knee t o the Provinceof Quebec .

Mr. U N D ERW OOD . D o you contend , Mr. Norris , that the bill introduced by Mr. McCall to carry out the treaty w il l carry it out in toto ,as it stands , or should it b e amended ?Mr. NORRIS . It w i ll carry it out abso lute ly as it stands w ith this

qua lifica t ion, tha t in the last paragraph on th e last pag e there is a

c lassification which is a part of th e proviso ; in other words, that nocommodity can b e made free under this proviso until P resident Ta ftw il l procla im that Canada h as made free every article enumerated ,including wood pulp and print paper from the U nited States , andthat can no t b e done by Canada until all of her provinces have re

moved the ir restrictions. But as that is no t possible,there fore the

President will never b e able to procla im that Canada h as compliedwith the agreement.Mr. MCCA LL. May I just state to you that it is rather clear, in

reading the last two or three pages of th e bill,that none of those

duties, none of the other reciproca l duties provided for there , would

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 255

go into effect until Canada h ad procla imed the remova l of aract icallythese restrictions on wood pulp

, p ulp of wood mechanically groundand so forth , appearing on pag e That is invo lved w ith the otherarticles in that part of the bill .Mr. U NDERWOOD . Then you ag ree w ith the contention that the

bill should b e amended to carry it out .

Mr. MCCA LL . I agree that that part of the bill should b e amended,

and furthermore, I have been informed by the State Department thatthere is no provision in th e tre a ty that is pending upon this, orregard to wood pulp , and I have no question but that entire subject isopen to the committee .

But I wish further, because it is an important po int, to ask Mr.

Norris this : There were two parts to t he amendment proposed by Mr.

Hal l on page 20, one inserting the words “the Dominion of Canada

orany Province thereo f ,"

and th e o ther applying to wood . D o you objcet to both those amendments particularly

,or only to the last one ?

Mr.NORRIS. Well,Iwould not like , o ifhand , without even seeing the

text , to answer that question. My impression is that both o f themare hostile ; that they are intended t o stop the operation of and the

intent of the treaty, and that therefore the committee should not adoptthem.

Mr. MCCA LL. Now ,Mr. Norris

,I just want to get at your idea and

clear this up . lVith regard to the first amendment , inserting the

words “ Dominion of Canada or any P rovince thereo f ,”1 may have

been misinformed , but I h ad th e idea that that was your idea untilnot very long ago . A m I correct about that ? Now

,the committee

wish to get the exact facts about it .NORRIS . There are phases of tha t proposition which I am

afraid I am not at l iberty t o discuss publicly : b ut I can say thatafter that proposition had been made

,th e situation w ith respect to

the Provinces of Canada entire ly changed , and we are now menacedwith a very serious situation ,

which the newspapers must bear theburden of, and not the paper makers, because the paper maker w il lsimply pass a lon the increased cost o f h is p ulp wood to the consumer.

Mr. BOU TELL. r. Norris , I would like to have these fi ve items putinto the hearing , partly to appear in what you have

.

a lready said ,and the rest you undoubtedly have in your paper, given ora lly or

answered them. F irst, for th e year 1 9 10, ca lendar or fisca l , whichever we have the figures forMr. NORRIS . I have both .

Mr.BOU TELL (continuing ) . Th e tota l amount in tons of print

paper consumed by the newspapers of the country ? Y ou gave theO'

ures

e . NORRIS. It is approximately One million two hundred thousand is what we ta lk of.

dMr. BOU TELL .

I f you care to modify th i s in the hearing you may

0 so.

Mr. NORRIS. No ; I would say , sa fely. I get those figuresfrom the papermakers’ reports of production.

0

Mr.BOU TELL . Second , th e price pa id for the same . I think vou

g ave that.Mr. NORRIS. The uni form price which they are now asking i s $4 0

per ton.

2 56 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. BO U TELL . I meant th e to ta l amount pa id .

Mr. NORR IS .

Mr. BO U TELL . F or 1 9 10?

Mr. NORRIS . For 1 9 10.

Mr. BOU TELL . The net profit t o th e seller on thosesa les ?Mr. NORRIS . Th e paper maker and th e L ord only know ,

and theL ord w il l not tell .Mr. BOU TELL. We ll , fourth ,

th e tota l net profits of all the news

papers purchasing that p aper ?Mr. NORRIS . The tota l net profits ? Y ou mean th e earnings Of the

newspap ers ?Mr. BOU TELL . Y es ; th e to ta l net profit as it would b e returned to

the Interna l Revenue C ommissioner. Those figures are all ava ilablethere .

Mr. NORRIS . I do not know that .

Mr. BOU TELL . Y ou could no t g ive that ?Mr. NORRIS . No ; I have not th e least idea . I know some of them

are no t making a cent . I know that a t th e Mann committee hearingsGen. A gn us , of th e Ba ltimore American , came be fore tha t committeeand sa id : “ Gentlemen ,

for the year 1907 my paper price wasor $38 p er ton, and when I went to these fo lks for a supply for theyear 1 908 they to ld me tha t th e price on me w ould b e ra ised to $50p er ton an increase of $12 ,p er ton .

”

Mr. BOU TELL. We are w andering afie ld . I am asking for the

figures on th e profits .

Mr. NORRIS . I w as going to say that they w iped out all of hisprofits w ith that increase . That w as my po int .

Mr. BO U TELL. He may have done better in 19 10.

Mr. NORRIS . I think he did .

Mr. BOU TELL . I want the figures of the profits.

Mr. NORR IS . I think the price was approximat e ly $4 5 p er ton.

Mr. BOU TELL. Y ou can not g ive the to ta l profits of the papers consuming that paper ?Mr. NORR IS . NO , sir.

Mr. BOU TELL . The fi fth question I ask is,th e net profit of each of

the fi ve most profitable papers in th e country ?Mr. NORRIS . I do not kn ow but one

,and that I w ill not tell .

Mr. BO U TELL. Y es ; so tha t you can no t or do no t w ish to , g ive it ?Mr. NORRIS . I have no means. ,I do no t know tha t anvone h as the

means for ascerta in ing th e tota l profits of a newspaper.

Mr. BOU TELL. They all ought to b e on fi le in th e Interna l RevenueCommissioner’

s offi ce . I did no t know but what y ou h ad them. We

can send for them.

Mr. NORRIS . No,sir ; I h ave no t go t them.

Mr. GA INES . How many newspapers are in the associa t ion whichyou represent .

Mr. NORRIS . Three hundred and one .

Mr. GA IN ES . Three hundred and one ?Mr. NORRIS . Representing substantia lly all o f the important. news

p a ers in the U n i ted S ta te s .

r. GA IN ES . Representing subst ant ially all o f the important news

pa

pe

i

rs Il

t

l

g

tlle U ni ted States ; and b v that. vou mean th e large da ilies,a ( e i

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25 8 REC i PROCITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. NORRIS . The Interna t iona l P aper Co .

,for inst ance , broadly

makes th e statement that for the year 19 10 every customer on itsbooks was paying except four—namely, the Hearst p apers, theChicago Tribune , the Chicago News, and th e Ch i cago Record

- Hera ld.

Th e announcement was that for th e year 19 1 1 they would make all

p ay $4 5 p er ton.

M r. BRA N TLEY. Wh a t I was g o ing to ask you was th i s : Cuttinga ton o f print paper up into newspaper form and se lling the paperat a cent a copy ,what would tha t amount to for a ton of paper ? How

much would a ton of paper yie ld in price , se ll ing the papers at a

cent each ?Mr. NORRIS . It would depend , O f course , on the size of th e paper.

Mr. BRA N TLEY. We ll,the average paper.

Mr. NORRIS . I w il l g ive you the units which we have in the news

paper business . lVe always measure paper by the weight of one thousand 8 - pag e sheets. The New York papers vary in Size , whether theyare 7 o r 8—co lumn papers in width . But

, a s I h ave thought w ith re

spec t to some of the papers tha t I have been connected w ith , it wassubstantia lly 64 pages to a pound

,or eight 8—page Sheets to a pound

,

and the re fore there would b e sixteen thousand 8 - page sheets in a ton

of news print paper of pounds. S ixteen 8—page papers, uponthe b

gsis of 64 pages to the pound , or e ight 8 - page sheets to the

ounpMr. BRA N TLEY. How much would a pound of paper yie ld

,then

,

at a cent a paper?Mr. NORR IS . Well

,I am not a prodigy. I can not carry this men

tal arithmetic to the extent , o ffhand , w ithout a pencil , Of go ing intotha t . I w il l b e pleased to Send that information to you, b ut I do notwant

,o ffhand here, to engage in menta l arithmetic.

Mr. BRA NTLEY. W il l you put it in th e record ?Mr. NORRIS . Sure ly.

Mr. LONGWORTH . I want t o ask you a question in regard to yourconstruction of this proposition. Have you rea d the Canadian bill ?Mr. NORRIS . Y es.

Mr. LO N GWORTH . D o you approve of that bill in regard to printaper ?pMr. NORRIS. It is in accordance w ith their understanding .

Mr. L ON GWORTH . I read you the proviso :P rovid ed , Th a t such wood pulp , pa p er, or b oard , b e ing th e products of the

U n ited Sta te s, Shall only b e admitted free o f duty into ("anada from th e U ni ted

S ta t es w hen such wood pulp , pa p er, or b o a rd . b e ing th e products Of Canada , are

a dmitted from a ll parts o f C anada free o f duty into t h e I'

nit ed Sta tes .

Mr. NORRIS. That is incorporated in th e agreement, and th e reasonfor it Is obvi ous, as you W 111

.

see when I make the explanat ion. A s Ig ather, th e

-

Canad i an commi ssi oners were unable to bind th e provinCIal authori ti es. The demand was first made by the A merican Government—I do no t know whether I ough t to ta lk about that . A nyh ow ,

th e suggesti on was made that If the U nited States should reduceth e duty on paper and pul Canada ought to make correspondingreducti ons in paper and pu p ; and when this dra ft was made it leftin th e law a tax of p er ton on all print paper from Crown lands,or restrIe ted lands In Canada .

Mr. LONGWORTH . That is th e duty of plusMr. NORR IS. P lus the reta liatory duty of $2 ?Mr. LONGWORTH . Y es.

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 259

Mr. NORRIS. A nd that wh en th e situation had reached a O intwhere the P rovinces, by reason o f the Operation of this paper c ause ,should remove their restrictions

,and th e U nited States would then

b e imposing no duty upon print paper from Canada , then Canadawould ull down its bars on American paper shipped into Canada .

Mr. ONGWORTH . Now,I am no t perfectly sure that I understand

your position . I understand that you suggest that our bill as i t iswritten b e adopted , except that the last paragraph on page 24 b estricken out ?

Mr. NORRIS . Is that the last pag e of the bill ?Mr. LONGWORTH . Y es.

Mr. NORRIS. Y es. That may b e entire ly independent of the paperproposition, because your treaty is no t workab le unless that i s

stri cken out .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Now,suppose tha t was stricken out ; I would

like to know your understanding of just what the bill would provide with relation to the admission of print paper into this countryand in relation to the admission of our print paper into Canada ?Mr. NORR IS. It would provide that where th e wood comes fromrivate lands, that is, where the wood is free , the paper from thoseands would b e free .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Into this country ?Mr. NORR IS. Y es ; into this country.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Y es.

Mr. NORRIS. A nd that where th e paper came from the Crown

lands it would b e subject to a duty of 5 p er ton.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Now , how about print paper going from thiscountry into Canada ?Mr. NORRIS . It would continue to p ay th e duty of15 per cent now

imposed by Canada , until the U nited States h ad removed its duty on

all Canadian paper.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Wh ich it would not do until the last CanadianProvince had freedom of export.Mr. NORR IS . Y es.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Now ,I want to know just h ow you underst and i t .

In other words, what you favor is tha t all print paper coming fromany Province in Canada which does not impose a restri cti on of somekind on wood should at once come into this country free of duty ?Mr. NORRIS. Surely.

Mr. LONGWORTH . From those Provinces ?

Mr. NORR IS . Y es ; that is right.Mr. LONGWORTH .

But, on th e contrary, that the full Canadi an duty

should rema in aga inst American print paper until every Province

of Canada h ad removed its restriction on wood . Is that your Idea ?

Mr. NORR IS. That is accurate . Tha t is an accurate statement .

Mr. LONGWORTH . That is what I wanted to know .

Mr. CALDERHEA D . How is it that the pri ce of news print paper

was $4 5 a ton this year?Mr. NORRIS . Sir ?Mr. CA LDERHEA D . How is it that the pri ce of news print paper

was $4 5 a ton this year ?Mr. NORRII. That is th e uni form agreed pri ce . There have been

exceptions ; there are exceptions be cause of various cond i t i ons, suchas credit and time of payment .

260 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. C A LD ERH EA D . Exact ly . Here are some C anadian p apers, onefrom Montre a l and one from Toronto . Wha t i s th e pri ce of printpaper in those cities ?

0

Mr. NORR IS . I am no t clear. I th ink i t i s about or butthat is not public informat ion. I mean , I have h ad no Opportunity,no facility , for g etting that informat i on ,

and I do not know .

Mr. CA LD ERHEA D . to in Canada and In the U nitedSta tes would b e about your idea of it ?

Mr. NORRIS . W ell, the C anadian pap er makers are sell ing in the

U nited States, paying th e duty , and the price of th at C anadian p aperis very close to the price o f th e American paper mi ll. O f courseth e difference in th eir receipts is th e difference in th e duty, which issubstantially 1 9 cents a hundred , or per ton.

Mr. CA LD ERHEA D . There is no t much to p revent th e Canadian fromsel ling h is paper in th e U nited States now ?

Mr. NORR IS . Oh , they are sel l ing tons here now .

CA LD ERHEA D . Tha t is all.

Mr. MCC A LL . Mr. Norris,I am interested very much in the form

of th is bill . Now ,this Obj ection h as been made to the bill . This is

a recipro city measure , but on this question of paper there is no

reciprocity a t all ; that is, Canada does no t do a thing . “'

e do not

provide in this bil l th at she shal l do a thing . “’e simply provide

that. sh e sha l l have free entrance into our markets for her p rintpaper and w ood

,and things of that sort , from P rovinces that. impose

no export duty ; and w e do no t even require of her th at when she

sha ll see fit to remove all of th e export duties that sh e sha l l then takeour paper free of duty .

Mr. NORRIS . Sh e can not do tha t any more than you could controlth e State of M innesota , which owns swamp lands .

Mr. MCCA LL. Y ou do not understand my question. Canada doesnot even agree

—if we strike out th e last provi sion Of this billthere is no requirement tha t Canada Sha l l agree—even t o admit printp aper free from th e U nited States.

Mr. NORRIS . O h , there is every e lement of good fa ith . That is inthe ir bill ; that is in the memoranda between them ; it is in the

writings ; and i f na tions can not in those matters re ly upon th e fa ithful carrying out of the arrangement, then you may as well tear upthis treaty.

Mr. MCCA LL . We ll,then

,this would fo llow

, at any rate : ThatCanada would have print paper from these severa l P rovinces whichimpose this export t ax

,or whatever it is ca l led

Mr. HILL . Mr. Cha irman, the Canadian bill provides that paper

sha ll b e admitted from the U nited States free of duty when th e dutyfrom the Crown lands comes off.

Mr. MCCA LL. Y es. Then it fo llows that when th e export dutyhas been removed from all parts of Canada

,from all the P rovinces,

and not until then, paper can go into Canada from th e U nited Statesfree of duty. That is, it can go into any part of Canada free ofduty. I want to get your exact understanding , Mr. Norris

,because

you have studied i t . It can not go into any part of Canada free ofduty unti l all parts of Canada are w ithout restrictions upon exports ?Mr. NORRIS . L et me state it in another l ight. That is substantially

correct, but let me put it in this way : That when th e U nited Statessha ll have made paper and pulp free from all parts of Canada

,then

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262 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. NORRIS . I think I did g rasp it . I understood y ou had askedme whether i f these mills in some P rovince which h ad removed therestriction sh ould set up some minor P rovince w ith a restri cti on bywh ich th e Canadian wa l l should b e kept aga inst us, whi le our wallaga inst the ir p aper h ad be en removed—would that b e possible ?Mr. MCCA LL. VVOuld no t tha t b e th e effect Of putting on a restric

tion in any p art of Canada ; not necessarily the two P rovinces thatnow have it ?Mr. GA IN ES . Restrictions o f wha t kind ?Mr. M CCA LL. The imposition of some export restriction

,as we

ca ll it , an export tax,in any part O f C anada—this is C anadian ac

tion,and no t ours—would not that serve to keep paper from going

from the U nited States free into any part o f Canada ?Mr. NORRIS . It certa inly w ould prevent th e application of the free

p ap er clause of th e Canadian statute until every P rovince had re

moved all kinds of restrictions upon exportation.

Mr. MCCA LL. I think we understand each other. P erhaps I didnot ask th e question clearly

,b ut that was my understanding .

Mr. NORRIS. Y es .

Mr. CA LD ERHEA D . D O you mean the restriction to include the

ground tax or th e stumpage ?Mr. MCCA LL . I used that w ord “

restriction to escape repeatingha lf a dozen l ines

,

Mr. NORRIS . Y es ; certa inly.

Mr. MCCA LL . This export restriction, or whatever it is ca lled,

wh ich you w il l fi nd on page 19 .

Mr. CA LD ERHEA D . O f course an export t ax would b e a restriction.

Mr. MCCA LL . It would b e making it free , as I understand .

Mg

. CA LD ERHEA D . A ground tax levied on the timber cut wouldnot e .

Mr. MCCA LL . Y ou w il l fi nd it very clear on page 20.

Mr. GA IN ES . D O I understand that it is agreed that a proper con

struction of this bill isMr. LON GW ORTH . Cutting out th e last provision on page 24 is what

th e cha irman asked Mr. Norris. If you cut out that , premise yourquestion w ith that.Mr. GA INES . I f you cut out th e last paragraph on page 24 , the

last provision on page 24 , is it then your construction of this treatyt l

c

i

l

at w e w ould not . under it , g et. our print paper free into Cana a

Mr. L ON GW ORTH . Into any part of it .

Mr. GA INES (continuing ) . Into any part Of Canada until every

p art of Canada h ad removed all of h er restrictions aga inst the im

p ortat ion of w ood and pulp into this country ?Mr. MCCA LL. Exportation of wood .

Mr. GA INES . Exportation into th is country ?Mr. NORRIS . There are no restrictions except on pulp wood .

Mr. RA N DELL . That is not an answer to th e question.

Mr. NORRIS . Y es ; until all restrict ions h ad been removed .

Mr. GA IN ES . That does no t even pretend to b e responsive to thequestion I asked you. Y ou say there are no restrict ionsM r. NO RRIS . I answ ere d

“y es .

Mr. GA INES . Well , you did no t . Y ou now do .

Mr. NORRIS . I answered three times .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A . 263

Mr. BRO U SSA RD . The C anad ian Government wil l not permit the freeimportation of paper from this country into the Dominion of Canadauntil th e U nited S tates shal l h ave removed its restrictions ag a instpaper manu factured in the Dominion Of Canada imported into the

U nited States ; is that a correct sta tement ?Mr. NORRIS . That is one way of stating it ; yes.

Mr. BROU SSA RD . “'

ell, it is a co rrect statement ?Mr. NORRIS . Mav I restate that ?Mr. BROU SSA RD . Y es ; you may restate it . I want to keep the

sequence of my question.

Mr. NORRIS. That when the U nited States shall admit all Canadianprint paper and pulp free , that then Canada w ill admit all Americanprint paper and pulp free.

Mr. BROU SSA RD . A ll right . Now,then

,the U nited States can not

,

under this agreement , admit Canadian paper and pulp free unt il theProvinces Of Canada sha l l have removed any tax which they now

impose under the law upon th e same article In Canada or upon th e

wood ; is that a correct statement ?Mr. NORRIS. That is right .Mr. BROU SSA RD . SO that in order to carry this agreement out and

bring about free traffi c in paper between the two countries th e dutydevo lves upon the U nited Stat-es to secure from th e provincia l government the repea l of all taxes now existing , whatever they may b e ?Mr. NORRIS. That is true , and this p a er clause does automatica lly

work that result , and does it w ithout bu ldozing .

Mr. BROU SSA RD . How ?Mr. NORRIS. By setting up the private land ownership and pro

duction free , as aga inst a duty Of 5 upon the product of Crownlands.

Mr. BROU SSA RD . I understand you to have said here that therewere paper factories be ing constructed in Canada , and I a lso understand you to have saidMr. NORRIS. Y es ; there is one b y Mr. Barret’s company, th e Ameri

can papermakers go in there , be ing driven there.

Mr.BROU SSA RD . It oes not make a particle of di fference who i s

do ing it. I understand that to b e your sta tement . I a lso understand that you have deduced from the articles of that treaty, whencarried out

,that the American papermanu facturer W i ll , in th e U ni ted

States, manufacture paper, place it on th e market in Canada , anddrive the Canadian manu facturer out of that market .

Mr. NORRIS. A s a loyal A merican , tha t is my bel i e f .

Mr. BROU SSARD . That is your belie f ?Mr. NORRIS . A nd I am absolutely confi dent that upon even terms

he w ill do it ; but the Canadian h as a different View . and h e is entirelywelcome to it .

1

Mr.BROU SSA RD . New . then , Mr. do vou bel i eve tha t ?

Mr. NORR IS. A bsolutel y .

Mr.BROU SSA RD . P ardon me y ou believe , then , i f that i s the log i

cal deduction from the operati on of this treaty . that W i th that con

dition regarding woo d pulp and paper framed in that w ay in the

agreement it W i l l work itsel f automati cally , as you have sa id ; i n

other words, that we w il l no t have to use any other i nfluence to

repea l the interna l taxes now being imposed on pulp wood b y the

Provinces ?

264 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

Mr. NORRIS . I believe that, absolute ly.

Mr. BRO U SSA RD . Y ou b e lieve that the pro vinci a l governments wouldof their own vo lition do a thing by which they would put out of

business the paper manufacturers of Canada ?

Mr. NORRIS . P ut out of business th e paper manufa cturers Of

Canada ?Mr. BRO U SSA RD . Y es.

Mr. NORRIS . It would g ive them the great A meri can market .

Mr. BRO U SSA RD . But you sa id th e A merican manu facturer woulddrive them out from h is market .

0

Mr. NORRIS . But,as Canada uses 90 tons a

’

day in compari son wi thtons a day used in the U nited States , 13 no t th e consi derati on

of gett ing a ccess t o this market Irres ist ibleMr. BRO U SSA RD . But , Mr. Norris, you sa i d that under the condi

tions of this agreement the A merican manufacturer of paper woulddrive the Canadian manufacturer o f paper out of h is own market .

Now,how can you now argue that the C anadian manufacturer of

paper wil l drive the American manu facturer of paper out of h i s own

market ?Mr. NORR IS . Tha t the Canadian manufacturerMr. BROU SSA RD . Y ou h ave sta ted that i f this agreement is carried

out th e American manufacturer of paper w ill enter the Canadianmarket and drive the C anadian manufacturer Of paper out Of h

'

own Canadian market .

Mr. NORRIS . I was re ferring to th eMr. BROU SSARD . Y ou now say tha t th e Canadian manu facturer

of paper w i ll come into this country and g ive you cheaper paperthan the American manufacturer is g iving y ou now or w i ll g ive youunder that treaty .

Mr. NORR IS . Y ou misapprehended my statement . VVhen I re ferredto the American manu facturer going into th e Canadian market Ire ferred to the high -

grade papers.

Mr. BROU SSA RD . We are ta lking about print paper.

Mr. NORRIS . No ; I sa id that the U nited States h ad been sellingand is tod ay selling more paper to Canada , in va lue than Canadais se lling t o th e U n ited States.

Mr. BROU SSA RD . I thought you were speaking about the matter inwhich you are interested

,in which your association is interested

print paper.

Mr. NORRIS . In that particular aspect I would pre fer—there is a

gentleman here wh o represents the New York “T

orld and who is a

member Of the committee on paper,wh o came to ap

pear here as a

wi tness in connection w ith this paper ma tter, Mr. Se i tz,and I would

l ike to h ave h im testi fy for a minute or so,i f you h ave th e time .

Mr. MCCA LL . Mr. Se itz , we will hear you in just a minute .

Mr:LONGWORTH . I just want you, Mr. Norris

,to answe r one more

questi on. The b i ll as it stands,including the para g raph on page

24,would do what ?Mr. NORRIS. It would be absolute ly unworkable .

Mr. LON GWORTH . Would it do this as i t s tands . would this b ethe e ffect of it—that no Canadian print paper would b e admittedfree into this country unt il the last P rovince o f Canada had removedany restri ct i ons ?Mr. NORRIS . Its e ffect would b e that .

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266 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

you w ill readily see that it is diffi cult for us to reduce our pri ce satisfactorily , even if we benefited by the tari ff, because you g entlemenhave no sma l ler co in than a cent . I assume tha t i f there was a one

h a lf c ent co in there would b e found newspapers immediate ly thatwould cut do wn their p rice . W e s ell our wares a t

.

a fixed pri ce .

Tha t is one disadvantag e th a t a new spap er i s under i n meet ing thi scost of materia l . I think y o u wi ll p erce ive that . We can no t raise

in fractions,as the man w ho is selling our suppl i es to us can .

Mr. BROU SSA RD . Where do you make your profit,then ?

Mr. SEITz . I will come to that in a moment .Mr. BROU SSA RD . A ll right .

0

Mr. SEi 'rz . The average cost of a 16 - page paper i s $5 a thousand,

which is just th e amount we receive . O ur average Si ze last y ear was1 75 pag es, so th at we lost , as near as I can reco llect i t

, somethinglike 35 to 40 cents on every $5 worth Of paper w e put out . O f coursewhen I say we lost that

,I mean above the bare cost of the white

p aper. The circulation revenue IS computed on th e b it-

SIS.

o f thg costo f ink and paper, and no other charge i s made ag a inst i t in the average new sp ap er Offi ce . S o you W i l l see that th e C i rculat i on i tse l f i s

carried a t a lo ss on the averag e paper i f i t exceeds 16 pag es in Si ze,

and if its p rice is 1 cent to th e customer and one - ha l f cent to the trade ;and that is the rule a ll over the country

,that we charge a ha lf a cent

to the trade and th e trade del iver it for 10 cents a hundred . and thereta iler sel ls it for 1 cent , or $1 a hundred . Some years ago we madea computation in our Offi ce as to the amount of money we would havet o charge ag a inst ea ch line Of advertising in order to overcome theother expenses incidenta l to g etting out this publication and we

found this : that 1 8 cents h ad to b e taken aw ay from every line ofadvertising printed in the pap er to overcome t he additiona l cost of

getting out the publication .

Mr. BROU SSA RD . How much ?Mr. SEITz . Eigh t een cents on every line .

Mr. MCCA LL . That is , to p ay the expense o f edit ing and~n forth ?Mr. Stern . To p a y for editors

,telegrap h , rent . fue l , print ers . and

all minutiae tha t go t o make up an Offi ce . There is no marg in Ofprofit at all on white pap er excep t o n some Sun da y edit ions . There ,of course , we receive from th e who lesa ler in t he cit y a hundred .

There is a marg in Of profit on th e Sunday edit ion. which Shrinks . ofcourse . with size . But these are th e figures th a t I h ave g iven y ou forth e da ily, th ey are for six d ay s a w eek a s a g a inst "no d a y in thew eek . We h ave no w ay out except to secure some. form o f competit ion in g ett ing our supplies . I have noticed th a t th e pap er makersmake a statement th a t seems as inc o ns is tent a s any sta tement canb e . They p o int out that w e sh ould no t reduce the t ariff on one p ro

duct

, tha t that could no t b e reciproci t y . b eca use it w ill inj ure theirb usmess . and in the next b rea th thev tel l y o u g ent lemen that thereduct i on made under the A ldrich - P a y ne bil l h a s no t re duc e d thecost of p ap er to the c o nsumer

,b ut . on th e contrary . th e pric e Of

p aper ha s g o ne up : that th ey a re now cha rg ing 11s in i for whitepaper than they d id b e fore the reduc tion in the duty ,

NOW, tha t i s true ; b ut in what wa y it can h e us e d a s an a r g ument

aga inst th i s measure I am unable to und e rs tand . I f a reduct io n inthe tari ff of nearly one - ha l f has the effect of incre asing the ir ab ility

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 2 67

to Charge us , then it would b e readily assumed,fo llow ing th e argu

ments out consistently , that i f y ou took th e t ari ff al tog eth er O ff,they

could ra ise the price $3 more a t en , and they ough t to b e encoura g ingyou gentlemen t o reduce th e t ari ff instead Of hampering y o u and

asking you not. to make this great chang e . There is that inconsistency in their po int of view to wh ich I w ant to invite th e attent ionof the committee . They tell you that th is is adverse to their interests in one breath . and in th e next they show you conclusively ,

if

their figures are accurat e , tha t they have increased th e cost of paperto us since tha t t ari ff w as substant ia lly reduced . Now

,that actua lly

represents the truth .

Mr. RA N D ELL . D O y ou th ink one rea son why th ev could do th atwas that each tari ff. th e h igher and the low er tariff. is p ro

-h ib it ive ?

Mr. SEITz . Frankly,I think this is th e situation . They h ave an

associat ion that is abso lutely ironclad , th e business is in th e h ands Ofcomparatively few interests now . and they are closely al lied . It is .

perfectly impossible to buy paper in the market—I know about. thisbecause I buy tons in a year—it is impossible to secure any bidfrom any person except your own mi ll , and you can no t a lways dothat. Our chie f competitor in New York sent i ts ablest representat ive all over the U nited States last fa ll seeking for bids on a magnifi

cent order forwhite paper, and h e was abso lute ly unable to ge t a sing lepound anywhere

,or to get any paper manu facturing concern that

would bid for it . That is no t due to th e tariff, essentia lly ; it is dueto combination . Now ,

w e broke two combinat ions. lVe came t o

Washington and appeared be fore the Judiciary C ommittee and madeour st atement and we took our statement t o the A ttorney Generalof the U nited States , and we broke th e We stern P ap er CO . in VVis

consin , show ing th at th e combination h ad be en a leading factor inthe matter.

The reason I come h ere to advocate th is reciproca l agreement isthat the reason why they are able t o effect this combination and ma intain th eir prices is that they contro l all o f th e ava ilable w ater sup

p lies and timber lands th at exist on this side of the border. O ur es

tablishment , which is no t poor. b ut h as ample cap i ta l , can g o out and

invest its money . as some of th e members of th e committee have sug

gest ed , i f we could go across th e border, and save our industry .

_

Y ou

must know that the newspaper industry is the seventh larg est industry in the U nited St a tes, and we fee l that w e are benefited i n th i s

p aricular.I f I may b e a llow ed t o diverfre from th e subject for just

a moment,I w ant to ca ll a ttent ion to th e fact th at nearly all the op

pressions under th e existing tari ff come from the. contro l of wh a

might b e ca l led semimanu factured raw materi a l . Th i s sheet of

paper that I h o ld in my hand is nothing unt i l we t ake ‘

i t and p rint i t

and make it a live . A n ingo t of stee l is no thing unti l i t i s ro lled and

changed into some use ful form,and th e numerous manufacturers

with whom I have come in cont act in th e la st two years . since th e ag i

tation has c ome on ,have said we are vict ims of competi t i onW i th each

other, and are being held up in th e rear by the suppl i ers of our

manufactured raw materia ls . A nd th a t is where our d i fficult i e s come

in. The individua l manu facturer fee ls strongly oppressed .

I was a t a meet ing in th e ro ck - bound Republ i can town o f P o rtland

,Me .

,the other night , where there were 120 b usmess rep resenta

2 68 RECIPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

t ives, and when the cha irman asked them to express the ir V i ews on

this recipro city agreement by a rising vote every S ing le man in thatha l l stood up . They have found out there IS behind them a comb ination of those large interests from which there i s no escape on the

primary raw materia l . Now,all we ask is a chance to take our

money and go somewhere e lse w ith i t and see i f we can no t preservewhat we have without oppression to our publi c .

0

A l ine of questions was asked by Mr. Fordney that ind i cate d a

thought on h is part that we had some public - op pressw e combination.

Certainly you can not oppress the publi c very much when you sell

your product to them for the lowest com we make at ourmintA s to the advertising , that is borne by comparatively a few people .

Y ou w ill b e surprised when I tell you that less than 30.

mercantileestablishments p ay for the bulk of advertising in the Ci ty of New

York, and they tax the ir customers only 35 per cent , on an average ,for advertising to the public to a fford them cheap and prompt accessto barg a ins and utilities. So tha t here we start on this extraordinari lylow basis of a newspaper tha t sells itse l f to the merchant for a ha l fa cent, and is so ld to th e public for a cent, that puts be fore the publicthis business know ledge for 3% p er cent upon the article . an infinitesima l sum.

Now,we have g ot away off of our business. Wh en the typesetting

machine came a long it represented a change in the cost of news

p apers. The avera o e of the New York World then was 12 pages .

Now,as I have tolcfyou, it is I721L pages. The average rate for our

advertising was then $12 a co lumn more than it is now . Throughcompetition and one thing and another those benefi ts ha ve vanished ,until fina lly we have got down to the position of making our profitsonly by extraordinary skill , mechanica l effi ciency, and close economicstudy of our conditions.

We have cut off every bit of the waste and have endeavored to w ithstand the constant pressure of other forms of organization aga instus—organizations of manufacturers, of th e labor unions, of the advert isers

,all of these things we have to constantly contend aga inst

and I might say that newspapers p ay the highest wages of any tradein th e world . There is not among our trades- union employeesin the W orld office a sing le man who rece ives less than a year.

The ordinary compositor, l imited by h is union to working six daysin the week and seven and one—ha l f hours a day , earns Theaverage stereotyper in the World ofi ice earns $4 1 a week w ith hisovertime , and his regular day time is only seven and one - ha l f hours

,W i th SlX hours for night work . Y ou wi l l readily see that we are

p aying enormous wages, supplying a great public need , in th e NewYork newspapers, and I say this with knowledg e, that these newspapers do no t earn a net percentage ofmore th an 5 p er cent on theirgross annua l business.

Mr. BROU SSA RD . That is very interesting test imony to me,but I

have not go tten away from the proposition—my mind has no t. wander

-

ed.

from the’proposi ti on which you stated—that the price of paper

as i t i s to - day i s not a ltogether due to the duty on the print paper,but to the combinat i on that th e manu facturers in this country have

formed . What i s to p revent your go ing into Canada now and reduc ing the pri ce in thi s country to what the price should b e

,plus the

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2 70 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. BRO U SSA RD . I unders tood one o f the wi tnesses here t o say thatit was something l ike 2 p er cent.Mr. SEi Tz . Two p er cent in a country as larg e as Canada might be

a very larg e factor.

Mr. BRO U SSA RD . I am ta lking about the amount of.

timber.

Mr. SEi Tz . Well,it might b e a very large tract of timb er.

Mr. B i io U SSA RD . U nder this treaty you are still a t th emercy of theP rovinces, b ecause the Canadian commissioners have notified us thatthese rights are constitutiona l w ith the P rovinces , and that they can

no t presume to bind the P rovinces, b ut we must go to the Provincesand have them revoke the ir taxes be fore they W i ll receive our paper

,

and we can no t receive the irs free under this agreement until theyreceive ours free

,and yet the act of 1 8 97 , th e act

.

of th e P arl iamentwhich conveys th e authority to the P rovinces to impose taxati on on

the Crown lands, g ives tha t power, fixmg merely the maxnnum tax

that may b e imposed , and g ives the power to impose a t W i ll, increase ,

or take off, the tax. Now,i f the P rovmces w ere all to comply W i th

this agreement for the ratification of_

th i s treaty by both Governments

, a fter this paper had begun crossmg th e l ine from thi s countrythey could re imp ose this tax there , and there i s no power

,

in the Canadian Government , and there is no power in the A meri can Government

,t o go there and compe l the P rovinces to re instate the condi

tions under which this trea ty h as been made e ffective . So that it isa b so lute ly in the power of a third and independent power to causethis trea ty a t any t ime to b e suspended so far as this article in whichyou are interested is concerned .

Mr. SEi 'rz . Tha t is true ; we would have to take tha t risk .

Mr. BROU SSA RD . So that your investment would not b e any sa ferthan it is now .

Mr. SEi Tz . But th e answer to tha t is tha t if we are w ill ing to takethis risk

, y ou ought no t to compla in.

Mr. BRO U SSA RD . But you are asking o ther interests to make concessions. Y ou are no t any sa fer. Y ou say you w ill take th e chances ;the fact of it is, you are taking no chances . The other industries aretaking chances to g ive you an opportunity.

Mr. Snrrz . But they have been able to ra ise th e price on this paperin th e face of a reduction of th e tari ff.Mr. BROU SSA RD . I do no t understand you .

Mr. SEi Tz . I say the tes timony shows tha t in th e teeth of the re

duction in the P ayne - A ldrich bill they have been able to ra ise theprice of print paper.

Mr. BROU SSA RD . That is true .

Mr. SEITZ . They have ra ised it fully to 6 p er cent .

Mr. BROU SSA RD . Still , tha t does not ap p lv to th e matter I amspe aking of.

Mr. L o NGwon'rH . Th at. happens in a g ood many cases ; for instance ,

in th e case of hides, where the placing of h ides‘

on th e free l ist wasfollowed by an increase in price .

Mr. Snrrz . Frankly, I am no t here asking for privileges.I am

ask ing for a‘chance . O ther g entlemen are coming here asking to

have the ir privi leg es re ta ined , and iron clad . I am asking to havean open door

,and we W i ll take our chances . Y ou are constantly

assa i led by gent lemen wh o are comino here asking for individualfavors. We are not h ere a sk ing for individua l favors, we are asking

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 2 7 1

to have an open door, and let us come in i f we can. It is possible thatin other lines of industry where they have to use this semimanufactured raw materia l they can compe te. constantly

,a lth ough they

have no competition in the basis on which they do the ir business.

We compete all the time w ith other newspapers spring ing up around

gs,and we have no competition on th e raw materia l Which we must

uy .

Mr. LONGWORTH . D o you no t suppose that the increased demandfor news paper all over the world is largely responsible for that ?Mr. 8 1311 2 . I am perfectly w il ling to admit it.Mr. LO NGWORTH . There is a world - w ide movement ?Mr. SEI'rz . There is a world—w ide movement ; there is no question

about that.Mr. LONGWORTH . The tariff h ad very little to do w ith it ?Mr. Ss rrz . The tariff may or may not have very little to do w ith

the existing conditions, but it h as this effect upon us, ourse lves.

I will be g lad to answer any questions about profits or prices,or

anything else .

This

CHA IRM A N . Mr. Longworth , do you W ish to ask anythingmore .

Mr. LONGWORTH . No , sir.

Mr. MCCA LL . Then, that is all.Mr. SEIrz. I am very much obliged to you.

(A t p . In. the committee took a recess until 2 o’clock. )

The following letters were submitted for printing in the record :NEW YORK , J anuary 31 , 1 91 1 .

D EA R SIR : Th e pap er and pulp manufacturers of t h e U ni ted Sta tes are

d eep ly interested in th e prop osed recip rocity wi th Canada , and we wish to

protest most vigorously aga inst i t s a d op tion b y th e Congress of th e U nitedSta tes.

I w ill briefly sta te our p osi tion a s American manufacturers :A careful investiga tion mad e b y th is a ssocia tion a b solutely d isproves the

sta tement made b y th e American P ub lish ers’

A ssocia t ion, and o th ers, tha t nuless th e Province of Queb ec w ith draws it s restrictions upon th e exporta t ion ofCrown- land pulp wood th e U n i ted Sta tes p rint- p ap er mi lls w ill b e unab le toob ta in the ir supp ly of pulp wood a t reasona b le p rices.

Th e only ma teria l ch ange in th e pulp-wood situa tion wh ich has occurred in

recent years , or wh ich is likely to occur for many years to come, is due to an

order in council of th e provinc ia l government of Queb ec, promulga ted A pril26 la st , wh ich provides th a t pu lp wood cut from Crown land s of Queb ec afterMay 1 , 19 10, sh all b e manufa ctured into p ulp or p ap er in Canada . Th e On

tario Government h a s had such a restriction for 1 1 years, b ut our mills havelong since adjusted th emselves to th a t re striction. Th e P rovince of NewBrunswick. accord ing to lega l op inion of b o th Canada and th e U nited States,can not , b efore 8 years, re strict t h e exp ort of i ts pulp wood wi th out grossviolation of contract . and th en only Crown - land wood . Th erefore the worsthas already hap pened , and ye t our manufacturers are not a t all d isturb ed as

to the immed ia te future or eventua l outcome .

The action of Queb ec ap p lies to only th e Crown lands of th a t Province . Itis not a matter of any immed ia te concern a s to h ow large a territory is thusaffected . Th e po int is simp ly h ow much p ulp wood h ave we b een getting fromthat part icular source and h ow can w e make up for th e deficiency ?A ccord ing to th e records of t h e Crown land dep artment of Queb ec, th ere

were exported during th e fisca l year, from 1 905 to 1 909 , an average of

cords annually of pulp wood cut on Crown lands of th a t Province . Th e pres

ent demand may b e consid ered cord s p er y ear. Much of th is wa s usedfor making other kinds of p ap er th an newsp ap er, and to th is extent t h e t e

2 7 2 RECIPBOCITY W ITH CA N A D A .

quirements of our new s mills are th erefore d ecrea sed . A t lea st_

20 p er centof th is wood i s fi r, wh ich can b e ob ta ined in unlimited quant i t i e s from ln

numera b le source s . Th e essentia l p a rt of t h e exporta t ions i s th e spruce wood ,

and of th e s pruce th a t p ort ion wh ich is used for ma king sulph i te or ch emical

pulp ; i t i s p erfectly fea sib le to rep la ce w i th h emlock, fi r, tama ra c, and o therkind s of wood to a very large extent . Th a t p ort ion w h ich IS used for makingground wood or mech anica l p ulp for new s p a p er i s a lone ind isp ensa b le . This

quant ity can no t—p rob a b ly does no t—exceed cord s annually . Prac

t ica lly ,th erefore , th e p rob lem is merely h ow can t h e cord s of pulp wood

from Queb ec Crown land s annua lly imp orted , wh ich is used for making groundwood pulp for use in news pap er, b e secured from o th er sources ?

Th e p ap er mi lls in t h e U nited S ta t e s use a lto g e th er a b out cords of

p ulp wood a y ear. It is th us ob vious th a t Que b ec’

s a ct ion a ffects an a lmostneglig ib le p art of our consump t ion.

Th ere a re mad e in th e U ni ted Sta te s a b out tons of news p ap er a day ,

or tons p er annum. Th us cords of Queb ec C rown - land spruce

wood , used b y news mills , would furnish ground wood pulp for a b outtons of news p a p er, or only one - fi fth of t h e to ta l p roduct ion .

Th is imp orted Queb ec Crown- land wo od , a s a ma tt e r of fa c t , h a s b een used

b y only 10 or 1 2 p rint - pap er concerns out of 51 in t h e U ni t ed S ta tes. A ga in,

th erefore , th e p rob lem i s seen to b e one no t a ifect ing t h e indust ry genera lly ,

b ut simp ly one confront ing th ese do zen mi lls. It w ould b e extremely unjustand unrea sona b le t o jeop ard ize th e la rg e majori ty of mi lls b y ta riff concessions

for th e relief o f so sma ll a numb er of mi lls, a ssuming t h a t , w h ich is not the

ca se , viz ,th a t th ey need re lief . Th ese mills are loca ted in New Hamp sh ire ,

Vermont , Ma ssa ch usetts , and New Y ork S ta te ; no o th er sect ion of t h e countryi s in a ny wa y a ffect ed . W i th p ossib ly one or two exce p t ions , t h e owners of

a ll th ese mills h ave exp ressed th emselves a s in no w i se concerned a s t o th e irab i li ty to ge t a ll th e pulp wood th ey require a s far into t h e future a s theycan see .

By contra st ing th e va st fore st d oma in of Queb ec Crown land s w i th the

amount of p riva t e lands, t h e A merican P ub lish ers’

A ssocia t ion makes i t a ppearth a t th e la tter is insign ificant ; wh ereas t h e pract ica l quest ion is no t h ow large

a territory are we sh ut out from, b ut i s th e terri tory . t o wh ich we st ill have ac

cess, amp le ? We are convinced th a t it is , a t lea st for a good many years to

come , and th a t during th is p eriod , wh ich we can regard a s p rotected with

certa inty ,th ere can and w i ll b e a readjustment of th e industry wh ich w i ll not

occa sion th e sh ock of d isa strous results th a t would b e sure to fo llow any fur

th er reduct ion in t h e tariff on p a p er. W e can sure ly get a ll t h e wood we re

quire a t rea sonab le figure s for 10 y ea rs , and if Queb ec p ers ists in it s policyof restrict ion during th a t p eriod , na tura lly a ll mi lls , b o th old and new , w ill

take th a t restrict ion into consid era t ion in th e ir p lant .Th e island of A nt icosta , at th e mouth of th e S t . L awrence R iver, comprises

a b out a cres mostly of virg in spruce t imb erland . Th i s island is 1 50

mi les long ; a b out th ree t imes th e area of our L ong Island . It i s owned in fee

b y Mr. M eni er, of France , and prep ara tions for cutt ing pulp wood on a large

scale are now b e ing mad e . It is th e exp ecta t ion th a t cord s w ill b e cut

th is year, and th a t t h e annua l output can b e and w i ll b e increa sed as fast a st h e market d emand s, up to cord s a y ea r. Thus from th is new source

a lone a lmo st th e equiva lent of Crown—land wood now used b y us may b e

ob ta ined . Th e island is e stima ted to conta in cord s of pulp wood .

Th i s is not sub ject to th e Queb e c restrict ion , nor is th is area a p art of th eacre s of. p riva te land s a lready referred to . On th e south sh ore of th e

St . L awrence a re extensive tracts of t imb erland owned in fee wh ich h ave never

b een op era ted for pulp wood . Th ere is no t th e sligh test question b ut tha t th ewi th drawa l of Crown- land wood wi ll st imula te t h e p roduct ion of pulp woodon many area s of priva te lands no t y et op era ted for pulp wood . A t present th emarke t is glut ted and a lmost every day offers of wood from new sources are

rece ived b y our mills.

Canada can offer us no concession wi th p ulp wood to comp ensa te for a

reduct ion in th e tariff, Wh iCh W ill w ip e our mills out of existence and maketh e U ni ted Sta tes h ereafter dep endent upon Canada for p ractica lly i ts wh olesup p ly of news p ap er.

I venture to say th a t th e ult ima te result of th e cond itions confronting us, as

manufacturers , in ca se th is reciproc ity committee report should b e enacted , W i llb e as fo llows :

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2 74 RECIPROCI’

I‘

Y W ITH CA N A D A .

p er p ound or less , instead of 4 cents , a s in t h e McCa ll b i ll. Th is would help

us ma teria ly to ma inta in our p osi t ion, or take off th e d uty on a ll t h e ch emicals

and art icles we a re compe lled to imp ort , and g ive us th e same free tra de th a tCanada h a s w ith Eng land .

Can I b e a ssured th a t th ese figures w i ll rea ch Mr. McCa ll a nd Mr. P ayne In

t ime to save us from t h e p ossi b le p a ssage of a b i ll conta ining th e orig inal

figures ?Fa i th fully , yours ,

A U GU STU S G. P A INE.

COM M ITTEE ON WA YS A N D MEA N S ,

HOU SE or REPRESEN TA TIVES,Thursday , F ebru ary 9 , 1 9 1 1 .

A FTERN OON SESSION .

The committee reconvened at p . m.,Hon . Samue l W . McCall

presiding .

Mr.HU M PHREY of Washington . I have a te legram here that I

would like to have printed in th e record .

Mr. MCCA LL . Just hand it to the stenographer.

(The te legram re ferred to is as fo l lows

O L Y M PIA , W A S II. , F e b ruary 8 , 1 9 11 .

Hon . WILLIAM E . HU M PHREY , Wash ing ton, D .

Follow ing p a ssed Wash ing ton Le gisla ture t o - day :

House jo int memoria l 1 5 .

To t h e honora b le S ena te and House of R epresenta t ives of th e U n it ed S ta tes

in Congress a ssemb led :

Y our memoria lists, th e Sena te and House of R epresenta t ives of th e S ta te of

Wa sh ing ton , in legi sla tive session assemb led , would most resp ect ively repre

sent :Wh erea s congressiona l a ct ion w ith reference to th e revis ion of th e tariff

seems more or less p rob a b le ; and

Wh erea s contemp la ted congress ional action w ith re ference to t h e tariff lnvolve s and concerns certa in industries of th e Pa cific coa st and th e Sta te of

Wa sh ing ton ; and

Wh erea s th e cont inued p rosp eri ty and w ell- b e ing of th e Sta te of Wa sh ingtonis to a large extent involved b y th e cont emp la ted ta riff revision : Now , th erefore ,Y our memoria lists, in t h e name of th e p eop le of th e Sta te of W a sh ing ton, and

sp eaking in b eh a lf o f th e Sta te and th e ent ire P acific slope we earnestly and

resp ectfully p eti t ion and urge th a t no congre ssiona l act ion b e taken w ith refer

ence to t h e revision of t h e tariff w i th out care ful consid era t ion of t h e industrieso f th e w estern p ortion of t h e U ni ted Sta t es, and p a rt icula rly o f t h e northwe stern p ortion . Your memoria lists furth er urgently and ea rnest ly p et itionand urge th a t th e interests so vi ta l to th e we lfa re o f th e S ta te of W a sh ingtonand th e P acific northwest a re enti tled to th e same full consid era t ion and thorough review b y a nonpartisan , unb ia sed tariff b oard a s a re a ll o th e r industriesof th e Na t ion, and for th a t rea son and in th a t b eh a lf your memoria lists urge

congressiona l act ion accord ing ly , and th a t no action b e t aken w i th out such con

S id era ti on and revi ew.

L OREN GRIN STEAD ,

Ch ief C lerk of th e House.

REC IPROC ITY WITH CA NA D A . 275

STATEMENT OF MR . EDWARD S. HINES, OF CHICAGO, ILL PRESI

DENT OF THE NATIONAL LUMBER MANU FA CTURERS’A SSO

CIATION .

Mr. HINES. Mr. Cha irman and g entlemen, in viewing th e proposedrec iproci ty agreement w ith Canada , as president of the Nationa lLumberManu facturers’ A ssociation I am cal led upon to vo ice in thestrongest t erms possible a pro test from lumber manu facturersof the U nited States. O f this large number of lumbermanufacturers

,not to exceed one - hal f , and , conservatively Speaking , probably on

ly

one - quarter, own any standing timber, but purchase the ir raw material practica lly from year to year in th e open market.The summary of th e to ta l values of imported articles affected by

this arrangement amounts to O f this va lueper cent of the tota l , is for boards , deals, and planks, laths and

shing les, po les, and other dutiable lumber items. The lumber industry , there fore , h as to carry the greater portion of the load. The ex

ports invo lved amount to The only lumber items involved are stave and shing le bo lts , etc. ,

va lued at The lumb er industry, there fore , carries practica lly th e entire burden of thereciprocity.

In addition, of course , we have the benefit of th e assurance tha tCanada wi ll not place a duty upon rough lumber, etc .

, now importedfree into the Dominion . The entire va lue of timber

,lumber, posts,

t ies, po les, and staves admitted into Canada from th e U nited Sta tesduring the last fisca l year free of duty amounted toThere fore , our industry i s g iving up its protection on overworth of its product in orde r that less than worth of i tsproduct exported to Canada may no t possibly in_

the future b echarg ed a duty when it ent ers that country. In addi ti on

,we are ex

porting to Canada dressed lumber which has been and W lll b e dut i ab le and is not a ffected .

In the first place , w ithin the past 18 months, under the so - ca lledP ayne - A ldrich t ari ff bill , lumber suffered a cut of 37 1} p er cent ad

valorem, being the great est cut suffered by any o f’

the importantcommodit ies. U nder the workings of th e present tari ff law the importations from Canada increased enormously, 1909 sh owmg

feet , while during 1 9 10 there.

was importedfeet , this be ing th e first fisca l year experi enced a ft er i ts adopti on.

Be fore the hearing s of your body, prior to the adopti on of therecent tariff bill

, the lumbermen from vari ous parts of the countryshowed by most intel ligent and indisputable facts and argument thatthe former duty on lumber of $2 p er thousand was really not a pro

tect ive duty,but simply revenue ; that ow ing to th e advantageous

position of the Canadian Operators,locat ed in most cases ri ght across

the l ine for several thousand miles along our northern border, d irectly contiguous to the greatest consuming lumber markets of the

U nited States,commencing at P ortland

,Me

,and taking in Boston

and the various lar e New Eng land C i t i es,New York , Brooklyn ,

O swego , Buffa lo , an the Tonawandas, and through the Eri e Cana lat comparative ly low water transportation, reach ing th e heart of

New York State , and traversing west on the Great L akes, C leve land ,To ledo

,Detro it, Bay C ity , Sag inaw , Chi cago , and M i lwaukee , and

2 76 REC IPRO C ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

then go ing farther west , reaching th e Northern States of M innesota ,th e D akotas, Idaho , Montana , and Washingt on, a t comparative ly and

genera lly low wa ter rates. The Canad i an manufacturers h ave a

great advantag e over the American manu facturer, whi ch_

i s in i tse l fsufficient, in place of reducing the duty from the old

_

D ing ley rateof $2 , to have justified an advance . A direct , strong i llustrati on 1S

the comparative ly low transportation charge from any pomt on

Georg ian Bay , where a large part of the Ontari o lumb er i s manufactured

,to the greatest consuming markets of th e U n i ted States l ike

Chicago , M ilwaukee , To ledo , C leve land , Erie , Buffa lo , as well as

the greatest gateways t o the great consuming States, whi ch can be

reached a t an average cost of transportation of no t to exceed

p er thousand feet by water ; next , the comparative ly cheap transport at ion from th e O ttawa district and from Nova Scotia and New

Brunsw ick to our New Eng land coast .Compare such low w a t er transporta tion co s ts w ith th e rates via

ra il to these po ints from the greatest manufacturing district of theU n ited Sta tes at th e present t ime , name ly , th e South , the States of

A labama, Georg ia , M ississippi , L ouisiana , Texas , and A rkansas, which

p o ints take a ra te of from 24 cents p er hundred pounds to 32 centsp er hundred pounds, wh ich , on rough lumber, averages from $7 to $11p er thousand feet , an averag e of a t least 400 p er cent more than thecost of transporting lumber from th e Canadian districts to th e sameterritory where most of the lumber is used .

In th e extreme West,as w ill b e more particularly expla ined in

deta il by representatives from the P acific coast , practica l ly the entirecommon he lp of th e mills in th e Canadian west is composed of Hindus

,Japanese , Chinese , etc .

,and wh o work on a very much lower

wage sca le than the American labor can b e hired for ri ht across theborder, which constitutes a lmost entirely th e class 0 help in theAme

)rican sawmill . (See testimony taken one and one - ha l f years

ago .

A nother most important fact, as was illustrated in detai l beforethe former hearings of th e Ways and Means Committee

,the timber

in th e U nited States is bought outright at a fixed price , subject toimmediate int erest and taxes upon taking possession ,

and the amountof taxes levied is based on th e va lue of th e timber from year to year,constituting a steady fixed cha rg e upon th e timber. Th e Americantimber owner must a lso consider th e danger and risk attendant byfi re

, cyclone , etc.

,which was mo st forcibly illustrated last ye ar in the

forest fires which rag ed in the States of M innesota”

W isconsin,and

the far West . Compare th is w ith th e conditions existing across theborder in C anada , th e Government owning th e timber, carrying theentire risk of fi re , and practica lly carrying the entire risk attendantupon ho lding th e timber and licensing th e t imber to the manufacturer at pract ica l ly no taxes,making hardly any risk for the Canadianoperator and tying up no excessive suins in stumpage . This in itsel fwould amount, at a re asonable basis , to a difference of 10 p er centp er annum. Consider how soon an article a t 10 p er cent p er annumdoubles itsel f. Consider, there fore . th e. relative po siti ons of thelanadian and American manufacturer.

Is it not fa ir, there fore , to draw your particular attention to thefact that , taking th e ent ire duty off of lumber

, you are placing the

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2 7 8 RECIPROC J’

I‘Y W ITH CA N A D A .

compara tive ly few owners , now h ave a va lue th a t require s th e enlargement ofour ava i la b le timb er resources .

It is true that we might have access to th e Canadian resources, butonly by way of a large benefit to the Canadian sawmi l l as aga inst ourown . But granting that we should increase our importa ti on of

Canadian lumber under this measure , and therefore decrease theprice of our own low -

grade lumber, we would b ut accentuate theeffect caused by lowering the duty under the P ayne - A ldri ch bi ll . Ido not ascribe th e low prices of lumber during th e past three yearsentirely to that measure , for it was in part brought about by the

panic of 1907,b ut while o ther industries revived qui ckly

,lumber

did not . “7e were j ust beg inning to fee l a recovery from th e busi

ness depression when th e tariff bill was passed , and a t once we had a

further reduct ion in the price of low—grade lumber, th e up per gradesbeing little , i f a t all, affected .

The important fact, as shown by investigations conducted by theNationa l Lumber Manufacturers’ A ssoc iation

,as to th e conditions

existing in th e various producing centers of the country was that ,fo llow ing th e cry for conservation ,

th e lumbermen h ad been usingup very closely the t imber found on th e ground , go ing most con

scient iously into the utilization of de fective trees , and endeavoringto use up all that was ava ilable in th e trees ; but it h as be en foundnecessary , owing to the decline in va lues, to l imit th e amount cut inth e woods, to make a better se lection of timber

,and to leave a larg e

amount of materia l tha t would no t stand transportation and cost ofmanufacturing . The extent of this chang e and methods is a littlediflicult to determine definitely, but we can sa fe ly say that 5 to 10p er cent more materia l is now be ing le ft in the w oods than in 1906.

This materia l is not in shape to reproduce itsel f,to grow or become

ava ilable in th e future , b ut simply wastes itsel f by ro t and fi re , andis a menace to th e young timber. Taking th e low e s t percentagenamed , namely , 5 p er cent , on the tota l product of lumber, we are

showing a waste of 000 feet more than in 1906, a tremendous

waste , in order that a few hundred thousand feet more of lumbermay b e imported from Canada , which is no t needed in our markets,and which does not in any w ay benefit th e ultimate consumer, thereduction in th e duty be ing more than 50 p er cent. absorbed by theCanadian manufacturer, wh o , prior to this, was in p osition t o marketp ractica lly all th e low -

grade lumber h e w ished to in this country.

Th e ba lance was larg e ly absorbed b y the b ox manufacturers and thewholesale dea lers , and p art. of it absorbed by some recent advancesof th e ra ilroads. Th e reta i l dea lers

, as a who le .have made no change

whatso ever in th e p rice to th e consumer since th e change of duty,and we contend th a t i f the duty is remo ved entire ly it w il l pract ica llymake no d i fference i ii the pri ce to the consumer.

A g a in quo t ing the P re s ident :Fre e luni lw i

'

we o ug h t to h a ve . Ity g iving our p e o p le neew s to C ana d ianfo re sts w e sh a ll red uc e t h e c o nsump t ion o f o ur own, w h ich . in th e h and s ofcompa ra t ive ly t ew owne rs , llnw h aw a va lue tha t re quire s th e enla rg ement ofour a va ila b le t imb e r re sources .

We cha llenge th is assertion by the President , and offer as an offse t th e st a tement ou te st imony of th e Hon. Gifford P inchot b e foreyour bod y during the tari ff hea ring s . now on fi le

,in substance

,that

lowe ring th e dutv or removmg th e duty , would no t serve the ends

REC IPROCITY W ITH CA N A D A . 2 7 9

of conservation , but , on th e contrary , would force a great dea l of losson our own resources , and we attach hereto copy of h is testimonyjusti fying such contention .

We direct ly cha l leng e th e statement of the P resident in which hesays that our A merican forests are -in the hands of comparative lyfew owners. The lumbermanu facturers of the U nited States, undera reso lution of the Senate

,known as the K ittridge reso lution

,

adopted in D ecember,1906

,have been under direct investig ation

during th e past four ye ars by th e D epartment of Commerce and

Lab or. under the j urisdiction of Herbert Knox Smith . For severa lyears the lumbermen have heartily cooperated by g iving ready ac

cess to their books and records of all kinds. both through associationwork and as individua ls .

U p to the present t ime , a lthough we have made repeated demandsand requests upon Mr. Smith , as well as th e Chie f Executive , for a

report , no report has been forthcoming , and this great industry, bybeing mora lly indicted , so to speak

,for th e past fi ve years, as vo iced

by the public press from day to day , as be ing under investigation ,has been convicted in th e minds of th e American people as be ing a

great trust and subj ect to da ily attack. I f such a report has beenmade

,in j ustice to the great lumber industry, a copy of it should b e

made public . In place of th e timber be ing in the hands of com

paratively few owners, there is no class of raw materia l in thiscountry in the hands of so many diversified and sma ll owners.

In th e P resident’s annua l message to Congress he virtua lly statesthat 30 per cent of th e standing t imber of the U nited States is inthe hands of about 200 corpora tions and individua ls. This sta tement is in error b ut accepting it as be ing true for the sake of argument

,it shows a more diversified ownership than any other great

natura l resource of this country . The P resident says :“We sha ll have direct access to h er (Canada

’s ) gre at supply of

natura l p roducts: In taking th e duty off manufactured lumber,this in no w ay g ives direct access to Canada ’

s natura l p rodnets

,but to her manu factured products. We contend that i f the

spiri t of the reciprocity idea is carried out,as is directly done in the

case of pulp and pulp wood , i f such a rule is equitable as to th e one ,then th e same fe atures should surround the raw product of stand ingtimber as surround pulp wood , namely , that not a lone the manufactured article b e admitted free , but in return for this benefitCanada should a lso permit th e free exportati on of logs to thi scountry .

Quoting from page 8 , the P resident says :

Tha t th e b road ening of th e source s of food sup p lie s , th a t t h e op ening of t he

timb er resources of th e D ominion to our need s . th a t th e add it ion to th e sup p ly

of raw ma teria ls . w ill b e limited to no p art icular sect ion does not require

demonstra t ion .

While h e argues for th e free importa t ion of raw materia ls, so far

as the free importation of raw timber is concerned no provi si on i s

made , while such provision is made in th e case of woo d pulp .

A ga in, on page 9 , h e says :

Reciprocity w ith C ana da must necessari ly b e ch iefly c o nfined in it s e ffect onth e cost of living to fo od and forest products.

2 80 REC IPRO CITY W ITH CANAD A .

There seems to have been an entire oversight , as sure ly it can no t

b e intentiona l , in using an argument for th e free imp ortat i on of

forest products, so far as wood pulp is concerned, wh i le ‘

no provi sion

is made to c arry out this same plan so far as timber IS concerned ,coming from the same land in Canada as that whi ch grows the woodpulp

,and even on the same acre -“o r porti on o f the acre . I f pulp

wood under the provisions of the C anadi an reci proci ty agreement ISto b e admitted to this country free , what argument can b e used todebar raw timber l ikewise to b e imported w ithout restra int . In mostcases both are logged at th e same time , in th e same manner, andfloated down the same streams. Why stop one to b e manu facturedin Canada by Canadian workmen , fed by Canadian supplies and

manu factured w ith Canadian too ls, as compared w ith wood.

pulpbeing floated down the same stream to the Ameri can paper mi lls tob e manu factured by American labor, Ameri can mach inery , and

American sup plies ? I f such argument is good for pulp wood , whyno t use this same argument for th e free and unre s tricted importationof timber of all kinds ?Th e P resident states, on page 10:

Since b ecoming a na t ion, Canada h a s b een our go o d ne igh b or, immed ia telycontiguous across a wid e continent wi th out art ificia l or na tura l b arrier excep tnaviga b le wa ters used in common.

This stretch es over an extent of severa l thousand miles. In mostcases, or at least a great many cases , such navigable waters flow fromth e Canadian forests, down to navigable streams ente ring our own

country , nature , so to speak , a iding in he lping to transport raw

materia l or logs, as well as pulp wood , to our own country , so as to

enable us to manufacture not a lone pulp wood into wood pulp , butlikewise to manu facture saw logs into lumber in the U nited States,and by sb doing , create new towns in this country or

,a t least

,support

towns now in existence entire ly dependent upon sawmills for the support of the ir severa l thousand inhabitants . Such timber should bemanufactured in this country , because the entire product wi l l b e soldand marketed in this country. What is more bro ad or fair or equitable than. if Canada is t o have th e added advantage of marketing herproducts in the great markets of this country at a high er price on ac

count of the entire remova l of the duty,which particularly me ans an

advance in th e price of h er products, th at she should also agree to

the free and unrestricted exp ortation of her saw logs to our country,where they can b e manufactured into lumber by A merican labor.

American machinery, American farm products t o b e consumed andmanufactured in A merican facto ries ?A further fact and argument , i f i t is your w ish to have the lumber

rea ch th e American consumer at the lowest po ssible co st . is th at thetimber can b e floated down t o the American mills for manu facturinga t about one - tenth o f the cost of transporting th e same amount ofth e manu factured pro duct ; there fo re a further decrea se in the costcan he made by a l low ing saw timber to be imported free and manufactured on this side , as ag a inst th e p rese nt arrang ement b y which , eventhough th e duty is eliminated on lumber, it must b e manu factured inC anada . Such conditions extend over practica lly the entire borderbetwe e n the

O

U nited States and Canada . P rior IO‘

O ll t tl l 'lO enacting a

law forbi dd ing the exportation of lo g s there were sawmills located at

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2 8 2 RECIPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

should also b e incorporated in connection w ith th e clauses that ut

sawed lumber and other such products on the free li st . We there ore

respect fully o ffer, as an amendment to th e reci proci ty agreement , theattached proposed amendment .

PROPOSED A M EN D MEN T TO li li t i lPROCITY A GREEM ENT BETWEEN U N ITEDSTA TES A N D C A N A D A .

On page 1 8 , H . R . 32216, a fter line 7 . insert :

P rovided . Th a t such t imb er, sawed lumb er, p osts , t ie s , poles, staves, staveb olts, p ickets, and palings, b e ing t h e products o f C a na da . wh en imported th erefrom d irectly into t h e U nited Sta te s , sh a ll b e admi t ted free of duty on the con

d ition precedent th a t no refund o f ro y a lt ie s , due s . or ch a rg es of a ny na ture ,

export duty , export - license fee , or o th er exp ort ch arg e of any l'

ind wha tso ever(wh e th er in th e form of add it iona l ch arg e or license fee , or oth erw ise ». or any

proh ib ition or re strict ion in any way of th e exp orta t ion (wh eth e r b y law . order,

regula tion, contra ctua l rela t ion , or o th erw ise , d i i-

ou tly or ind irec tly ; sha ll h aveb een imposed b y Cana da or any P rovince or p a rt th ereof up o n such t imb er,lumb er, p ost s , and so fo rth , or t h e wood s ( in wh a tever form, wh e ther saw logs.

sh ing le b o lts, or oth er form) used in th e manufacture of S llt'll t imb er, sawed

lumb er, po sts, t ies, po les , staves , stave b o lts , p icke ts , and pa liug s : J ud pro

t i ded furt h er, Th a t C anada sh a ll no t impose a h igh e r duty on dre ssed lumb erth e product of th e T

'

utted S ta tes wh en imp orted int o Canada from t h e l‘

ni ted

Sta tes than th e duty imposed b y th e U nited Sta tes up on dressed lumb er theproduct of Canada wh en impo rted into th e U nited Sta tes from Canada .

Mr. HIN ES. There is j ust one po int further to which I w ish to callyour attention in this reciproca l agreement—th e question of dressedlumber. Lumber go ing from this side to Canada , i f finish ed morethan one side , pays a dut

.

of p er cent ad valorem because it isdressed ; lumber coming rom Canada to the U nited States . whendressed , pays from 3 to 5 p er cent duty . In other words, there is a

difference of about 500 per cent in favor of th e Canadian manufac

turer as compared w ith the American manufacturer. A s a directillustration, in shipping lumber, for instance , from Louisiana , timberdressed or sized , to Montrea l or Toronto , th e duty would b e 25 percent ad va lorem. Shipping the same lumber from Canada to the

U nited States, the duty would b e about 3 p er cent . So that t here isan important provision to b e considered . I thank you, gentlemen,for your kind considerat ion . I have an exceptiona l ly good map showing the territory of the U nited States and Canada . and I would liketo pass it around for th e gentlemen to look a t .

Mr. LONGWORTH . I unde rstand , now ,that you deny the truth of

the assert ion made in the P resident’s message a s fo l lows : By giving our people access to Canadian forests. w e shal l reduce the con

sumption of our own ,

'

and that y o u cite Mr. P inchot in support ofthe proposition that a $2 duty on lumber is more in th e interest ofconservation than th e pre sent duty o f On that po int—andI am asking you these questions no t in any spirit of controver~y . butto get the benefit o f your judgment—why , i f that is true . would not

a duty of $3 on lumber b e mo re in th e interest of cons ervat ion thana duty of $2 ?Mr. I'IIN ES . I would answ er that this wav : I think I can satisfy

you that Mr. I’inchot’

s re a s oning was co rrect . In a tree there are

a ll kinds of lumber. For ins tant -e . the first and second logsmight sella t an average of $30 a thousand . The t op log mig ht sel l at an average O f $10 a thousand : th at is . in g o od , sound tree . R ight a longside

ancxp nocrrr wITH CA N A D A . 28 3

of it is a different tree that produces a lot. of low -

grade lumber. A nything in the way of reducing th e duty helps Canada to put into thiscountry, not her good lumber, but her low -

grade lumber. Th e good

lumber i s pract i ca lly all exported to Europe, the low -

grade lumbercomes over here . In our sawmills when the price of low grade getsto a certain poni t we can no t a fford to manufacture : there fore thatlow grade will b e le ft in the forests ; a quarter or a fifth of the entiretree wil l b e le ft to ro t and decay . It is no t used at all. So , in theinterest of conserva t ion it would become an absolute waste on a

certa in proporti on.

A nother thing , on your rea l sma ll timber you can no t afford to do »

it. I f your sawmil l is saw ing a day , in order to keep itemployed you have to go over a greater acreag e than i f you took theenti re land clean. t en you leave a fourth in the w oods to decay,you are not conserving the timber ; you are w asting it .

Mr. Loxewom‘

n . Because when the p rice of lumber is low thatwaste occurs ?Mr. HINES. Y es.

Mr. LONGW ORTH . The higher it g o e s th e less wast e th ere is. I f itis true that the tariff adds t o the cost of lumber

,that the higher the

price of lumber, the less tendency there is to waste. why is it not a lsotrue that it would b e advisable to ra ise th e tari ff s o as t o raise theprice of lumber ?Mr. HINES . We contend , and we think we showed by the cleanest

argument possible , that a duty of $3 a thousand would no t stop inany way th e importation of th e same quantity of lumber that hasbeen imported for a period of fi ve years . But it would have stopped

,.

probably, that increased amount of low -

grade lumber. In otherwords, Canada

’s position ,

h er cost of transportation,being located

so close to our large consuming cities, her position is so advantageousthat i f the duty were $3 a thousand sh e could then compete with thesame advantage the A merican manu facturer has to—day , except on

the low -

grade lumber. For instance,as a direct illustration, when

the cost of transportation on an average is not to exceed $2 a thousand from 50 of th e leading Canadian manufacturing po ints to thegreatest consuming cities of th e U nited States, the great gatewaysto our great consuming Sta t es, a s compared w ith th e Southern States,as compared with Western States, it is not one - fi fth of the

“cost ofrail transportation to th e same markets. Y ou see the positi on she18 in.

Mr. LONGWORTH . I think you are getting a. l ittle bit away frommy question. Your answer is now devoted somewhat to the

.

question of transportation as affecting th e cost . I a in Simp ly trying to

get at the point where you step in your proposi t i on that h igh—pri cedlumber is in favor of conservation. How much hi

gher would that

have to b e to b e in the best interests of conservationMr. HINES . Y ou take high - priced lumber ; it is not only in the

interest of conservation , but a lso in th e interest of tree growmg .

If lumber is at a po int wh ere th e manu factured article does not p aythe cost of transportation i t becomes of no value ; it i s wasted ; i t i sleft in the woods to rot . We not only lose that lumber, but laborloses its proportion of the product , the transportation lines lose thei r

proportion, and so it is a waste . That stuff may b e worth only a

dollar a thousand in the woods, but i f manufactured and shipped

2 8 4 REC IPROC ITY wrrH CA N A D A .

to D etro i t or C leve land it would p ay some one from $6 to $8 ; itwould b e the labor cost. and th e transportation cost .

_

If lumbercomes from Canada and tha t lumber in Kentucky or M1 8 8 1SSlpp l is

left to waste or ro t that is a loss to th e American people . Y ou are

not conserving that amount of money , you are losmg i t .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Then you and Mr. P inchot, I presume , take thisposition, Tha t in the interests of forest conservati on i t would b ewise to force the price of lumber so high that i t would not b e usedfor p urp oses that it is now be ing used forMr. HINES . No ; I do not take that radi cal pos1ti on, and I do not

th ink Mr. P inchot does for a minute .

Mr. LONGWORTH . How can you he lp it ?Mr. HINES . Th a t would b e , I think , a very unrea so nab le position.

Y ou could not susta in that position for a minute .

Mr. LONGWORTH . How can you he lp be ing forced to tha t position ?We w ill st art w ith th e assumption that it is no t w ise to destroy all

the A merican forests ; everybody w i ll admit that . But if we con

t inne using lumber for the purposes for which w e are now using it,eventua lly those forests w i ll b e destroyed , w ill they no t ; our forestswi ll b e destroyed eventually ?Mr. HIN ES . Y es.

Mr. LON GW ORTH . I f w e continue t o use lumber for th e purposesfor which we are now using it , that is true is it no t ?Mr. HIN ES . No ; you could not put that rule down . Y ou have to

take wha t h as o ccurred in the past . I f you go back 5,10

,15 or

20years,the great purposes for which lumbe r w as used are no longer

filled w ith lumber. Conditions have chang ed , and lumber is not

used for those p ur 30ses. Cement h as come to take its place. Looka t the thousands 0 miles o f w a lks in th e vil lages where cement hastaken the place of wo od . L ook a t th e houses tha t used to b e builtw ith wood which are now constructed of re in forced concrete . Theseconditions have taken care of th emselves . t en lumber gets to a

certa in po int in price some other substance w il l take i ts place .

Mr. LON GWORTH . Then you do not think tha t i f lumber stays at

its present price, and the destruction of our forests keeps on at the

same rate it is go ing on now,they w ill eventua lly b e destroyed ?

Mr. HIN ES . I do no t ; no , sir.

Mr. L oNGwon'rH . I understo od you to say be fore that y ou d id .

Mr. HIN ES . Y ou meant on the same proportion,b ut conditions

there change every day . Take th e last 10 years as an illustration.

B illions of feet of lumber used for certa in purposes are not beingused at all any more . L ook a t the ra ilroad cars . It is entirely a

stee l proposition now . Three years ago it was entire ly a wood proposit ion . L ook at bo lts . Y ou can mention hundreds of articles ofthat kind .

Mr. LON GW ORTH . I can understand erfectly wh y , i f lumber gott o such a high price that people woul no t use it for the pur oses

for wh ich they are now using i t,bui lding sheds

,fences

,and so orth,

Just as i t i s, I understand , in Germany , it w ill b e much easier to con

serve the forests . But so long as it rema ins at its present price , substant ially , and is used for those

’purp oses, a t the present rate of de

struction . the forests will b e W i ped out in a not great number ofyears .

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2 8 6 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. LON GWORTH . D o you think it makes any difference , a fter youh ave a duty that is considered prohibitive , h ow much hi gher i t i s ?

Mr. HIN ES . Tha t is a different thing .

Mr. LON GW ORTH . $10 would b e prohibitive ?Mr. HIN ES . On certa in kinds of lumber ; on certa in kinds it would

no t b e . Y ou see,lumber is in grades.

Mr. LONGWORTH . What w ould b e a prohibitive duty ?Mr. HIN ES . Y ou take , for instance , a perfectly clear lumber ; it

might take an even higher duty to keep tha t out of this market.There is only about 1 p er cent o f that in the log , and th e larger p ortion of the log is a low -

grade lumber. That is what we want toconserve in this country and utilize . We do no t use it ; it is le ft inthe woods to ro t .

Mr. LONGWORTH . I do no t know whether you caught my questionor no t , or understood it . I assumed

,when I sa id $10, that that would

b e a prohibitive duty on lumber. Given a duty o f $10 on lumber,

h ow could you increase the price when you say it is an abso lutelycompetitive article all over the country ; h ow could you increase thep rice corresponding ly w ithout a combination ?Mr. HIN ES . Y ou could not .

Mr. LO NGWORTH . I thought you sa id you couldMr. HIN ES . Y ou could no t arbitrarily increase it all over the

'country a t th e same time . One section might advance it $2 , one

three,ano ther four, and different prices. One man might want to

rush ahead and p ut up four or fi ve sawmills and cut all the timbero ff in a year or two

,and that means a decrease in price . Supply and

d emand would govern that p rep osit ion, as it a lway s h as. Lumberfluctuates

,depending on supply and demand

,irrespective of the

duty .

Mr. FORD N EY . Wh en the price o f low -

grade lumber is very low the

amount of low grade in th e logs in th e tree le ft in th e wo ods is farg reater th an th e amount of low grade imported , is it not ?Mr. Hi N Es . Y es , sir.

Mr. FORD NEY. A t th e present time , Mr. H ines,I bel ieve you will

agree w ith me , in L ouisiana , M ississippi , F lorida , Georg ia , and all

the Southern Sta tes , th e price of the average product of the log at

th e mill is somewhere from to $14: p er depending on

the averag e qua l ity o f th e log and th e location of th e mil l ?Mr. HINES . Tha t is w ithin 5 or 10 p er cent .

Mr. FORD N EY . That price to - day is fi ve or six or seven do llars perfeet lower than it w as in 1906 ?

Mr. HINES . I would say from four to six do llars.

Mr. FORD N EY. So , consequently, when the price was $1 8 for thislumber a t th e mill , in 1906 and th e fore part. of 1 907

,much more

low -

grade timber w as taken out of th e woods, converted into finishedprqi

ducz

ts, and marketed than is being taken out of those foreststo ay .

Mr. HINEs Y es, sir ; the land wa s prac tical ly logged clear fourye

étrs ago , and to

- day there is about 25 p er cent le ft in th e woods toro

Mr. FORD NEY. In any lumbering operation in th e South , in orderto get the good grade out of the tree

,the low grade is now fa llen on

th e round and le ft lying there on account. of the low prices ?r. HINES . Genera lly speaking , tha t is true .

REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 2 8 7

Mr. FORD NEY . Now, put your tari ff high enough and it would

furnish a market for this low—grade lumber. Y ou speak of conserv

ing our forests . Instead of leaving all this lumber to ro t we wouldbe stripping th e lands clean.

HINES . Y es, sir ; a reasonable t ariff would enable that lowgrade lumber to b e transported to th e consuming markets and used ,where new it w ill no t bear th e cost of transportation .

Mr. FORD N EY . In th e P resident’s messag e to Congress , in the forepart of D ecember, 19 10, as I remember now on page 36 , th e P resident made the statement tha t the Bureau of Corporations, in th e

D epartment o f Commerce and L abor,h ad investigated the question

as to whether or no t there was a combina tion or :a trust among themanufacturers of lumber

,and that that bureau reported that there

was no combination or trust among the manu facturers of lumber ;is not that correct ?Mr. HIN ES . That is absolute ly a fact .Mr. FORD NEY. The press reports went out

,reporting the P resi

dent’s messag e , and they were just th e reverse,were they not ?

Mr. HIN ES . They w ere .

Mr. FORD N EY . It was certa inly intentiona l ; it could not have beena mistake , because th e word sent out in the. press reports was tha t thematter was being further investigated and h ad no t been determined .

Is not that correct ?Mr. HINES . Y es

,sir ; abso lutely .

Mr. FORD N EY . So that a wrong impression w as sent out by somepress reporter

,wh o sent that dispatch from Washington ?

Mr. HIN ES . A ll over th e U nited States.

Mr. FORD N EY . For the purpose,undoubtedly

,of discrediting men

in their business, was it no t ?Mr. HIN ES . That is th e conclusion we drew from it .

Mr. FORD N EY . N0 other conclusion could b e arrived at , could it ?Mr. HIN ES . Not w ithin reason

,I do not think.

Mr. FORD N EY . I wanted that to b e known ,and I want it to go in

the record that that is a fact . I w ant it further stated that, whoeverthat press reporter might b e , I would like to see h im excluded fromthe House of Representatives , because h e missta ted facts .

Mr. HILL . For whom do you appear t o - day ?

Mr. HIN ES . I appear as president of the Nationa l Lumber Manufacturers’ A ssoc iation .

Mr. HILL . Y ou are president of it , are you not ?

Mr. HIN ES . Y es,sir ; this year.

Mr. HILL . For whom did you appear th e other day ? For yoursel f , did you not ?Mr. HIN ES . In both ways—m in a dua l position.

Mr. HILL . Then you spoke for them the other day and you speakfor them aga in to - day ?

Mr. HINES . Y es,sir.

Mr. HILL . Wh o were th e people ; did you refer to manufacturers ?Mr. HIN ES . Manu facturers.

Mr. HILL . A s manu facturers only ?Mr. HINES. Only.

Mr. HILL. Not for dea lers, or consumers ?Mr. HINES . No ; principal ly manufacturers.

2 8 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A .

Mr. HILL . A nd you have no desire or intention of contrad ictingto - day anything you sa id the other day ?Mr. HIN ES . I f I made any mist ake I want to correct It .

Mr.HILL. That is your privilege . But you have no Intent ion of

contradicting to - day what you sa id the other day , and h ad no in

t ention the other day of contradict ing anything you have sa i d to lay ?

HIN ES . Not intentiona l ly ; no , sir.

Mr. HILL . A ll right ; that is a ll.

Mr. HINES . I thank you.

STATEMENT OF MR . HERBERT W . BLA NCHARD , OF BOSTON,

MA SS , PRESIDENT OF THE BLA NCHARD LUMBER CO . , OF BOS

TON ; PRESIDENT OF THEPORTAGELAKEMILL CO. , OF PORTAGE

LAKE,ME. , REPRESENTING THE MA NU FA CTU RERS OF THE

STATE OF MAINE.

Mr. BLA N CHA RD . Mr. Cha irman and gentlemen, I have been askedto appear be fore you as the represent-at ive o f the fo l low ing com

p anies , who manu facture lumber in the State of Ma ine : St . JohnL umber C o . , V an Buren , Me .

, manu facturing feet a year :the South Gardner Lumber Co .

, South Gardner, Me .

, manufacturingfe et ; the P ortage L ake M ill Co .

, of P ortage , Me . manufacturing feet ; A ugusta Lumber Co .

, of A ug usta , Me .

,

manu facturing fee t ; L awrence Bros , of South Gardner,Me .

, manufacturing fee t ; Sterm Lumber Co o f Bangor,M e . , manu fa cturing feet ; Lowel l Elgel, of Bangor, Me .

,

manu facturing 000 feet. These concerns have a capital invested of more than a mil lion and a hal f

,and they employ upward

of a thousand men.

In order tha t your committee may understand th e reason for thisprotest which I ammaking , I think it proper to g ive you somethingof the conditions that exist in th e spruce manufacturing business .

bo th in Ma ine and in Canada . Ten years ago stumpage in Mainewas $3 per thousand : i t then advanced to $4 , then $5 , and now to $6

p er thousand . The cost of stumpage h as doubled in the p ast 15years. There are very few manufacturers in Ma ine who own theirown timber land . They are oblig ed in nearly every instance t o buythe ir stumpage of individuals. This applies to nearlv every millon the Kennebe c, P enobscot, St . John R iver, and mi l ls in northernMa ine . They can not get the ir logs less than $6 p er thousan d on thestump , to wh ich must b e added expenses o f logg ing and driving .

A cross th e line conditions are different . Most of the Canadian millsacquired the ir land in large blocks years ago when prices were lowand when th e Government w ished to se ll . In C anada the Government first owns the land , then deeds i t to ind ividua ls

,and in many

cases these individuals in turn h ave sold it t o the present. owners.

F i fteen yearso

ago pri ces were very cheap , and most mills do not

figure that the ir stumpage costs them over a do llar to p er thousand . To thi s must b e added the Crown dues of p er thousand.

P robably is th e cost of Canadian stumpag e tod ay, as against

$6 for American stumpage .

Freight rates on the l ine of the Bangor A roostook Railroad»where my P ortage L ake mill is located . are 1 5 cents per hundred on

long lumber.

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290 RECIPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. HARRISON . A s a matter of fact, tha t road runs through therichest agricultural reg ion in New Eng land .

Mr.BLAN CHA RD . It is a grea t potato country. They shi p out a

great many potatoes on tha t road .

0

The rate of freight from many p omts in Canada 18 13 and 14

cents to Boston and Boston po ints, where the haul is considerablylonger. In other words, the Canadian ra ilroads have made no ratesof freight, so as to assist the Canadians to market thei r lumber.

The manu facturers of this side o f th e line for the past three yearshave not made any profit whatever. The last year roved an actualloss t o nearly every mi ll in th e Sta te ofM a ine manu acturing lumber.

A cross the line mills are prosperous. A Canadian friend of mine inmy offi ce two or three days ago in formed me tha t they a lmost a lwaysnetted $3 p er thousand profit , and th e last y ear showed them a refi tof $4 p er thousand . Y ou will see from these figures that the ana

di ans are physically able to put the ir lumber into th e States a t $2or $3 p er thousand less than we possibly can manufacture it in theState of Ma ine .

A lmost all the Maine mi lls cut the ir logs ful l lengt h, from 40 to 50feet long , and endeavor to saw this sto ck as much as possible intoframes and lon random suitable for th e American market . A lmostall of the Cana ian mil ls - and by Canada I mean Nova Scotia , Province ofQuebec, and eastern Canada—cut the ir logs 16 feet long . Theyhave been accustomed to sel l 80 p er cent of their product in England,South America , Cuba , and th e West Indies. We have been gettingduring this period the sto ck that is unsuitable for these markets,namely, the narrow random plank and boards and all the laths thatthe mil ls produce . A s soon as th e duty was reduced from $2 top er thousand many of these mil ls began to turn their e es towardthe States. and they have b een shipping in during the ast year a

vei

c

'

ymuch larger amount than hitherto .

f this added compe tition the result h as been that on everythingthat the Canadians could produce the market h as gone down. Severa l mills that have been shipping entire ly abroad under the reducedduty have been taking orders for our market

,and th is competition

has been felt a lo t during this last year w ith the duty at I fthe forci marke ts continue strong it is probable that we sha ll notfeel th is anadian competition very much , except on the narrow sizeswhich the people abro ad do not want. D uring the past year a lotof th is narrow stuff h as been put into the New York market at $3p er thousand less than the stock can b e produced on this, side of thel ine . New York was simply a dumping ground for their by - prodnot , and I can assure you that this hurt tremendously. Now ,

let ussuppose that th e Eng lish market

,which takes a very lar e amount of

lumber, gets down. Immediate ly our Canadian frien s w ill commence to sh i their lumber onto ourmarket

, and the competition willb e fatal . T ey can undersell us i f they want to , and th e State ofMame manufacturers could look forw ard to severa l disastrous years.

We all of us had a theory that when the duty was reduced from $2to that we would have l ittle to fear fromCanada

,provided this

fore ign market held good , but even w ith the duty at we havebeen bo thered a lot by this low - priced Canadian lumber.

The present reci procity treaty prop oses to reduce the duty from20cents to 10 cents on laths. Th e strength or the weakness of the New

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A . 29 1

York market makes the price high or low . L aths are a by- product of

all Nova Scotia and Canadian mi lls,and can not b e shipped abroad .

They must b e shipped to th e States any way , and I fa i l to see wherethe duty would have any effect one way or the other in the price ofthi s commodity. It seems entire ly foo l ish for the U nited States Government to take off the duty on laths

,as it is simply g iving this duty

to the Canadians and w i ll not put one penny into th e pockets of theAmerican consumer.

Mr.

IIILL . “’

h at do you sel l laths for in Ma ine,at Bangor shipping

pomts .

Mr. BLA N CH A RD . I was speaking a t that moment of the laths tha twere shipped by cargo .

Mr. HILL. I me an laths shipped by cargo .

Mr. BLA N CH A RD . Most of th e laths that are shipped by cargo comefrom over th e line .

f l

Mg

r. HILL . What are laths worth ? What did they close a t lasta 1 .

Mr. BL A N CH A RD . I should have to figure that out . L aths closed inNew York last fa ll a t about to That would net theShipper aboutMr. FORD N EY . F ive thousand la ths

, Mr. Blanchard , represent aboutfeet of lumber

,do they no t ?

Mr. BLA N CH A RD . Y es, sir ; 5 to 1 .

Now, go ing back to lumber, it is ag a inst this Canadian comp etition

that we ask this very sma ll protection of p er thousand . Givena depressed market on the other side of the water th e low cost ofCanadian lumber makes it entire ly possible for American manufacturers to do the ir business a t a heavy loss . The American mills inMa ine have considerab le sums invested in them. I can count up 25mills that have severa l mi llion do llars invested in them

,to say noth

ing of the sma ller mi lls which would bring up th e tota l to a verylarge figure . We ask to have th e t ariff le ft as it is . It is about as nearfree trade as anything can b e . It w ould b e a shame for the AmericanCongress to subj ect the American manu facturers of the State ofMaine to this Canadian competition . It is a pretty serious thing ,gentlemen, to own any manu facturing enterprise

,I care not of what

kind,and to fee l tha t you are losing money every day you operate .

The last year w as a disastrous year for th e M a ine manufacturers. Iknow tha t many did business a t an actua l loss . Th e strength of anyNation is in the prosperity of its individua ls. I f th e Ma ine mi llswere forced out of business it would bring w idespread hardshi p .

First, to the mill owners, and next to th e men who have bui lt l i ttle

homes,and whose children are dependent on the ir father’

s labor fortheir necessities of l i fe and for their education . I f th e mills in th e

State of Ma ine were forced to shut down for one or two years to meetnew conditions I shudder to think of the hardship that would

_

result

to the who le State . W ith duty at p er thousand , we in the

State of Ma ine have h ad a pretty hard time this year. We don’twant a worse time w ith fre e trade . I thank you.

Mr. HILL . Y ou are not a l lowed to take logs out of Canada into theU nited States to manu facture th em, into Ma ine ?Mr. BLA N CH A RD . No , sir.

Mr. HIL L . Suppo se that restriction w ere removed . would your oh

jections to the recipro city treaty b e removed ?

2 9 2 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. BLA N CH A RD . I do not agree w ith Mr. H ines in tha t respect.

There are only certa in mi lls in th e State of Ma ine that would b ebenefited by that duty being taken off. There are mi lls lo cated on

th e S t . John River which logs that come down from C anada wouldunquestionably he lp very much .

Mr.HILL

.It would not he lp any other part of the State of Ma ine ?

Mr.BLA N CH A RD . It would not help any mills except those locate d

on th e St .John watershed . There are certa in branches of the St .

John R iver that run up into C anada , th e L ittle Bla ck and o therrivers in that loca lity , that bring down a lot of timber, and those mi llswould undoubtedly b e he lped . But , on th e other hand , th e numberof those mil ls are very sma ll compared w ith the mi lls tha t are obl igedto get timber from th e other rivers o f the States, the P enobscot, theKennebec, th e F ish R iver country , and o ther places farther down in

th e State that are aw ay from the St . John R iver.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Is the lumber interest of Ma ine a very large one ?Mr. BLA N CH A RD . It is not large compared w ith th e industry in theWest. I quoted the capita l invested in a few mi lls. I was ta lkingw ith a gentleman from th e West and h e to ld me that one of the mi llson the P acific co ast gets out feet a day . Tha t is as much as

fi ve of our mills produce .

Mr. LONGWORTH . I meant large as compared w ith o ther industries.

Mr. BLA N CH A RD . It is th e principa l industry of the State of Ma ine .

Mr. LONGWORTH . D o you interpret th e last e lection in Ma ine to b ea p ro test ag a inst reducing th e duty on lumber from $2 toMr. BLA N CHA RD . I think th e last election in th e Sta te ofMa ine was

due to a very di fferent cause . It seems to me tha t it is popular toj ump on the Republican P arty.

Mr. L ONGWORTH . Why ?Mr. BLA N CH A RD . Because living is high and all sorts of things, and

then there w as a l iquor trouble down there . They te l l me that liquortrouble was the rea l reason for the Republicans losing th e State ofMa ine in the last election.

th

Mr. LONGWORTH . Mr. Harrison,on our committee

,knows all about

at .

Mr. HARRISON . No t about the l iquor question . [L aughter. ]Mr. BLA N CH A RD . I may b e wrong in sta tin g that

,but I have been

g iven to understand that th at was th e reason for it .

Mr. L ONGWORTH . Y ou think it was th e liquor question ?Mr. BLA N CH A RD . I have been to ld so by men who pretended to

know a lo t about it . I do no t be l ieve th e State of Ma ine would have

gone back on the Republican P arty anyway

,except for specia l cause

or that loca l reason.

STA TEMENT OF MR . E. SKINNER , OF SEATTLE, WA SH , REPRESENTING THE PORT BLAKELEY MILL COMPANY .

Mr. FORD N RY . How many sawmi lls are you interested in on theP aelfi c co ast , in Ca li forni a , Wash ington, and O regon, or all three ofthose Sta tes ?Mr. SKIN NER. Two ; one manu facturing redwood

,in Ca l ifornia .

and one manufacturing D oug las fi r, in Washington .

Mr. FORD NEY. Wha t is the capacity o f yourmi ll at P ort Blakelev,on Puget Sound ?

l

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2 94 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. SKIN NER . I am a fra id I would have to ask you to answer that.Mr. FORD N EY . I w il l answer it

, as I happ en to know . I have fre

guently seen tree s in th e Sta te of Washingt on that would out

eet .

Mr. SKIN NER . I . should think to feet . It seemsra ther a diffi cult proposition fo r M L ongworth and others t o rea l izethat it costs j ust as much t o manufacture a grade of lumber tha t sellsfor $7 a thousand on the P acific coast as it does for a grade of lumberthat '

sells for $20. There is absolute ly no difference in th e co st untilyou add the extra cost of planing and work. The mere cost o f logging it, of hauling it to your tra in, putting it on th e cars, and tow ingi t to the mi lls

,and putting it through your mil ls, is just as much to

manu facture a No . 2 log or a low grade as it is a high -

grade log ;and until you commence to surface the ma teria l

,which you do not

do w ith th e low -

grade materia l , th e cost is just as much . We are

rather philanthropic , but I am frank to say tha t our philanthropyceases when we have to sel l stuff at $7 tha t costs us $10 right a long .

A s long as we can get $10, $1 1 , or $15 we can continue to manu factureit,even i f w e only get cost , because we must operate our plants at

norma l capacity a t least . I f we can ge t cost w e can opera te . How

ever, we can no t continue to se ll lumber at $7 a thousand tha t costs us$10; and the result is that the amount we are comp e l led to leave inthe woods is such that th e proportion is larg er, and w i ll b e largeron the P acific coast a lone , where the greatest supply of timber in theU nited States still rema ins standing , than you w il l ever imp ort fromCanada , it doe s not make any difference if you p ay them a bounty.

Mr. L ON GW ORTH . When you sel l in this country,Where do you sell ?

Mr. SKIN N ER . In this country,which is our natura l territory.

Mr. LONGW ORTH . Y es.

Mr. SKIN N ER . The Northern States, principa l ly ; North and SouthDakota , M inneso ta ; Ca li fornia takes a billion and a ha l f feet a y ear

from us a lone .

Mr. LONGWORTH . Would you say What that lumber tha t you sellfor $10 reta ils for to the consumer ?Mr. SKIN NER . I should say through our own y ards it reta ils for

about $9 , because we have lost money on every retail yard we have h adfor years.

Mr. LON GWORTH . Y ou have reta i l yards ?Mr. SKIN N ER . Wh at I mean to say , f . o . b . the plant . IVe have

some Who lesa le yards and some reta il yards . We have had one foryears in Manila , and all over Ca li fornia

,and a lso in Seatt le . and in

every instance I should b e very g lad ,indeed .

i f anybody could compute th e bare cost to us and p ay us back for it. In o ther words, i fyou g o to the consuming centers, like New York

,L ondon

,and San

Francisco , you w ill fi nd that 9 chances out of 10, a t reta il , lumber isso ld at less p rice than anywh ere else in the world ; b ut y ou no intoth e consuming territory where you fi nd a sma l l communitv, wherethe people wh o handle it sit around the same stove and put theirfee t up and sp i t tobacco juice . and you w i l l usual ly g et a fa ir price.

We have found th at this discussion,which h a s created so much atten

t i on throughout th e U nited States because o f th e ma intenance of theh i gh pri ce on lumber, is due no t to the maintenance of the price byth e manufacture rs in the last few y ea rs but from th e fact tha t thep rices tha t they secure in these smallreta il centers in the Centra lWest

REC IPROC ITY w i TH CA NAD A . 29 5

have been ma inta ined regardless of the fact that our prices have beencut in two . In other words, I saw our price

,in 1905 and 1906

,ad

vance from $9 to $1 8 p er thousand export, and the inferior lumber

fo llowed to a certain extent in proportion. Our coast trade wentfrom about $9 a thousand to $15 f. o . b . at the mills.

Mr. LoNGWORTH .

.

Y ou_

say in cases where your price has been cutin two, but the retai l pri ce

t'

Mr. SKINNER . Has not been reduced anywhere nearly in propori on.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Not at all ?Mr. SKINNER . I did not say not at all. I say possibly a do llar or

two , where our price h as re ceded $6 or $7 .

Mr. LONGWORTH . A t least,not correspondingly ?

Mr. SKINNER . Not in proportion. That is the conclusion we havemade right a long , tha t we would b e very g lad to have this investigat ion made by Mr. Herbert Knox Smith

,and either hang us or

cut the rope that we are t ied w ith—th e statement of the newspapersthat we are in a trust. I can abso lute ly prove to you, w ithout anyquestion, that conditions are worse on th e P acific coast to—day , inMr. Ellis’s territory and our territory

,than they have been in 20

years. Lumber is se lling at less prices to - day than it has in 20

years in proportion to the cost.Mr. LONGWORTH . The statement h as been made that since the p as

sage of the P ayne law the price of lumber h as gone up . That , Iassume , is the reta il price of lumber.

Mr. SKINNER . No,sir ; I did not know anybody h ad made the

statement that the price of lumber h ad advanced . I think there isnever an time when the price of lumber rema ins absolutely st a

tionary or 30 days. It may advance or decline 50 cents or $1 a

thousand in every six months’ period. The genera l tendency and

the absolute fact 18 that th e price of lumber for the ast three yearshas receded

,and to - day i t is lower, as Mr. H ines sai from $6 to $7

a thousand at the mill for th e ordinary building material .Mr. LONGWORTH . Y ou and Mr. H ines, I understand , are speaking

of the producer’s p rice ?

Mr. SKINNER. Y es.

Mr. LONGWORTH . I am 5 caking of th e reta il price.

Mr. SKINNER. The reta i pri ce , of course , we have no control over,unfortunately. We are not quite as well pre

pared to take care of

the retailer as they are in Canada . In Cana a they consider thata product of the so il which should b e conserved . I never heard any

discussion at all in re ference to a vio lation of the Sherman A ct wh enthe farmers ot together to ra ise the ir prices on cereals or anythingelse.

But wlgaen we get together to arrange a pri ce on a

_

product of

the so il there is immediately a hue and.

cry of comb inati on and

monopoly. Over there when they tried thi s same tri ck in the reta i l

yards the manufacturers sim ly went to them from the P aCIfi c coastand told them that i f they d i d not reduce their pri ce they would putards right a longside of them and se l l at a reasonable . pri ce , or at

ess than cost if necessary.

Mr. LONGWORTH . Genera lly speaking , i t i s true , i s i t not , that th e

retail price of lumber has gone up in the last year?Mr. SKINNER .

I could not say so . I should say i t h as gone down in

all po ints I have anv know ledge of. I should sav that in the last year

2 9 6 REC IPRO CITY W ITH C A N A D A .

the p rice (lid i lClV il l lt '

i‘ th e fore part o f the year, say , a dol la r a thou

sand , and then it h as receded since then a do llar a thousand . It h asfluctuated somewhat during the pa st year.

Mr. LONGWORTH . I mysel f h ave seen copies of c i rcula rs sent out

by lumber dea lers, shortly a fter the passage of the P ayne law ,to thi s

effect :We regret to inform our customers th a t ow ing to t h e pa ssage of t h e Payne

law we h ave b een comp elled to increa se th e p rice of lumb er.

Mr. SKIN NER . I have seen some other circulars myse l f tha t I shouldlike to disavow . Why in th e world anybody should make such a

statement I do not know . There are some insane asylums yet .

Mr. L ONGWORTH . But they are no t in them.

Mr. SKIN NER . They are not there . Y ou se e,th e difficulty we meet

is this : In th e foundation of the President’s statement he says pla inlyand simply :A farsigh ted p olicy requires th a t if w e can enla rge our sup p ly of na tural

resources, and esp ecia lly of food p roducts and necess it ies of life , w ith out subs tant ial injury t o any of our producing and manufacturing cla sses, we shouldtake step s to do so now .

In order to answer tha t proposition you say you w i ll not hear anything a long tha t line at all. I do no t blame you for not wanting toh ear anything about it

,and I did not w ant to come here and say any

th ing a long that line . Sti ll , h e says i f it is no t go ing to interferewith the manu facturing interests, we should adopt it ; conversely, i fit is, w e should no t . I Say to y ou now that y ou w il l prostrate the ‘

manu facturing interests on the P acifi c coast and the shipping interests

,and those dependent on them

,which are probably 60 or 70

p er cent of th e interests on the P acific coast , for years and years, untilI doubt very much whether the present manu facturer w i ll b e able tostand th e stra in. W e are paying a t least 60 or 70 cents p er acre a

y ea r taxes in th e S t ate of Washington.

Mr. FORD N EY. Would you permit me to interrupt you j ust at thisp o int ? Wha t is th e price of logs, No . 1 and No . 2

,on P uget Sound

that you are paying at your mil l now ?Mr. SKIN N ER . The price of logs is supposed to range from $6 to $9 .

Mr. FORD NEY . $6 for No . 2

Mr. SKIN NER . A nd $9 for th e other.

Mr. FORD NEY. What is a norma l price for those logs ?Mr. SKIN N ER . What do you mean ?Mr. FORD NEY . Wh en the market is a t such a po int that some profi t

i s made out of the manufacture for that. grade o f log .

Mr. SKIN N ER . D o you mean to say wha t price should we receivefor the logs, and add th e cost of manu facture to it and a bare profit ?Mr. FORD N EY . Th e po int I am trying to make is th is : For instance ,

in 1906 th e price of lumber w as very sa t isfactory to the mill men.

Wh a t did you p ay for such logs a t th at t ime ?Mr. SKIN N ER . $9 and $10Mr. FORD N EY. So the va lue of the logs t o - dav is $6 to $9 , as ag ainst

$9 to $12 a t that time , or a difference o f $3 per feet ?Mr. SKIN N ER . A bout.Mr. FORD NEY. Th a t is g rea ter th an th e va lue o f th e stumpage as it

s la nd s in the tre e. lo - da v for anv g ro up o f t imber in th e Stat e of“Mshmg tmn Is It n o t ?

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2 9 8 REC IPROC ITY W ITH C AN A D A .

Mr. RA N D ELL. In re ference to the supply of timber.

Mr. SKIN N ER . No ; there is plenty of timber t o last unti l your gencration and mine w ill b e gone , as far as I can se e .

Mr. RA N D ELL . That is not th e estimate of all th e people who have

g iven it study.

Mr. SKIN N ER . I do no t have t o agree w ith them.

Mr. RA N D ELL . Can you expla in to me why it is tha t ord inary t imb er, j ust ordinary materia l for building farmhouses, sheds, and barns,is tw ice as high in th e M iddle West to - day as it was 12 years ago tothe man wh o wants to build ? D o you know of any reason why thatshould b e

,or any reason why it is ?

Mr. SKIN N ER . I tried to expla in a while ago tha t we h ad nothingto do w ith the reta il price ; could not have anything to do with it.I do not think th e price of materia l is tw ice as high as it w as , becauseif it was tw ice as high as it was 12 or 1 5 years ago , it would no t thenhave pa id th e fre ight rate . It is cheaper to - day , I think.

Mr. RA N D ELL . Was th e fre ight rate lower than now ?

Mr. SKIN N ER . It w as established in 1 8 93 a t 40 cents . They en

deavored to advance it to 50 cents. That h as been one of the pleasantpropositions we have h ad to meet .Mr. RA N DELL . The fre ight rates are not higher than they were

be fore ?Mr. SKIN N ER . Th e fre ight rates are no t hi h er in th e last 12

ye ars, except po ints east o f the western l ine 0 M innesota . Therethey range from 1 to 5 cents a hundred higher.

Mr. RA N D ELL. The methods of manu facturing lumber are moreeffi cient and economica l than they were be fore ?Mr. SKIN N ER . I doubt very much i f they have reduced th e cost a

grea t dea l , because we have constructed a new mill since the destruct ion of our old one , and we h ave tried to use all th e ability we couldbut we have no t found th e cost of manufacturing w ith th e new millis much less than tha t of the old one

,i f any .

Mr. RA N DELL . Then there has been no improvement in th e business,so far as methods are concerned ?Mr. SKIN N ER . Y ou are handling a crude product

,and it is hard

to decrease the cost very materia lly. Besides that, you must take

into consideration that the cost to us to - day , as compared w ith yearsago , h as advanced materia lly.

Mr. RA N D ELL . Th e labor is one of th e ma in items,is it no t ?

Mr. SKIN N ER . Y es ; a lways.

Mr. R A N D ELL . A nd th e high cost of living , of course , h as something to do w ith it ?Mr. SKIN N ER . Y es ; the prices we must p ay th e laborers in order to

enable them to exist .Mr. RA N D ELL . O f course , each industry that gets a favor that

affords an opportunity to make its products higher contributes itspart toward increasing th e cost of l iving and the cost of business,necessari ly.

Mr. SK IN NRR . Possibly . Fo l low ing tha t to a natura l conclusion,instead of taking the duty off lumber

,take i t off everything ; put us

all on the free l i st, and g ive us a ll a fa ir chance .

Mr. RA N D ELL . That might b e very much better than the presentsystem.

Mr. SKIN NER . That might b e bet ter th an your proposal .

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CAN A D A . 29 9

Mr. RA N DELL . I am not making a proposa l ; I am asking you.

Mr. SKI N NER . Then I make th e proposa l ; i f this act is go ing to beconsistent, w ipe the who le slate clean ; i f we will prosp er better underfree trade , let us try it .Mr. RA N D ELL . I want to get back to my proposition . Has the

method of manu facturing lumber been improved and made moreefficient and economica l in the last 12 years, or not ?Mr. SKIN NER . We had the experience of building a new mi llMillRA ND ELL . I am no t asking you whether it cost more to build

a mMr. SKINNER . We are saving th e loss, because we are manufactur

ing now ,with a band saw instead of a broad circular saw

,like we

used to . We are saving th e waste and a lso using electricity.

Mr. RA N DELL . The methods of manufacturing lumber have beenimproved , have they not ?

Mr. SKIN NER. Y es, they have ; but they have not reduced the cost

ofmanufacturing materia lly, as compared w ith the past 12 years.

Mr. RA N DELL . The independent mil l that operates on a sma l l scale ,that does not own it own timber, is rea lly handicapped a t presentby the question of ob ta ining stumpage more than by any other one

thing , is it not ?Mr. SKIN NER . I do not lmow of anybody who is denied th e privi

le of obtaining stumpage.

fi r. RA N DELL. D o youmanu facture th e rough lumber you Speak of ?Mr. SKINNER . We own our own timber and have a ra ilroad of our

own wh ich transports a good dea l of it . Some of it we b uy in theopenmarket. We manufacture th e lumber.

Mr. RA ND ELL . Y ou manu facture the rough lumber ?Mr. SKIN NER. Y es ; and surface lumber as well , and w e have for a

great many years bought a great dea l of lumber.

Mr. RA N DELL . D o you se ll any of tha t in the M iddle West ?Mr. SKIN NER. Y es ; we are located on the west side of P uget

Sound, and we are principa lly a water- shipping fi rm. P ractica lly90per cent of our trade is w ater- shipping trade.

Mr. RA N D ELL. D o you sel l any in Minnesota , Iowa,M ich igan, and

through there ?Mr. SKIN NER . We do not sell any in M ichigan now .

Mr. RA N D ELL . A t what price do you lay down this rough lumberin Iowa ?Mr. SKIN NER . The fre ight rate to the principa l Iowa po ints is

50 cents, and th e weight on rough lumber is from _

to

pounds. Th e f. o . b . price now is about $7 a thousand for dimensi onstuff

, ordinary building materia l . I should say that th e average rate

of freight from our territory is about $12 per thousand . I say thatis all labor, except 10 p er cent tha t the rai lroad gets i n the way of

dividends.

Mr. RA N DELL . D o you not think it would b e a great sa y ing to thepeople of Iowa , Kansas, Nebraska , Oklahoma , Texas, and all thateat M iddle West , if they were free to get the i r lumber from

anada,Mexico , anywhere , as against buying i t at a pri ce like that ?

Mr. SKINNER . A t $7 a thousand f. 0. b . the mill ?Mr. RA N D ELL. F . o . b . the mil l over there on th e coast next to

Jap an.

300 REC IPROC ITY W ITH C A NA D A .

Mr. SKIN NER . Y ou w il l no t fi nd the fre ight much less from the

Canadian territory than it is there unless they want t o buy i t fromich igan or Ontario , shipped through Ch icago .

Mr. RA N DELL. I f you were trying to build up a pra iri e home out

there , with your knowledge of the lumber b usmess, would.you not

think you h ad a better Opportunity i f there were no restri ct lon on

this lumber, so as to g ive you a fa ir show in the markets of the world,to build your house ?Mr. SKIN N ER. I do not think th e housebuilders have very much to

c omplain of in the price of lumber.

Mr. RA NDELL. Y ou did not answermy questi on.

0

Mr. SKINNER. I wil l answer in my own way . Y ou asked i t in yourway . The investment in a home , usua lly, constructed of wood, isabout 15 p er cent in lumber. That is, th e rough lumber.

Mr. RA NDELL. I b eg your pardon. I l ive in that section of the

c ountry where the lumber is about four- fi fths of the pri ce of thewho le thing .

Mr. SKIN NER . O f the house ?Mr. RA NDELL. Y es ; j ust a frame house .

Mr. SKINN ER . Y ou mean the labor invo lved or j ust the roughlumber ?Mr. RA N DELL. Not th e labor a lone . On a house that cost

there were two hundred and fi fty- odd do l lars of it lumb er.

Mr. SKINNER . Just the rough lumber ?Mr. ELLIS. It costs a man more to put in the heating plant and

build the chimneys than the rough lumber.

Mr. SKINNER . I want to answer your questions courteously. The

d ifference between us of a do llar a thousand f. o . b . at the mil l willdepend on whether we w i ll take out th e low -

grade lumber. If itall cost $10 a thousand , and we have to se l l i t for $9 . we w i ll eventually leave that that we must sel l for $9 . But the difference to thebuilder of the home , i f lumber enters into h is home

,is only 15 per

cent—I mean the rough lumber, w ithout the manufacturing—all‘

but the labor, the putting it in . Tha t only makes 1 p er cent of thewho le construct ion. I think we are all a iming toward a reasonableconservation rob lem and trying to save a factor in our l iving thatis worth wh i e , that is worth saving . I think the way to save it isexactly as we have de termined , exa ct ly as this report determinesfrom the forestry commission of Canada , and I would like to b e permi tted to read a paragraph of it . It says :Your commissioners h ave h ad th e ir a ttent ion drawn to the fact th a t th e duty

'on imp orted sh ingles wa s increa sed b y t h e U n i ted Sta tes Government uponrepresenta tions made b y th e lumb ermen of Wa sh ing ton, wi th th e h earty indorsement of various forestry a ssoc ia t ions and of p rominent memb ers of theForest Service . It was h e ld b y th o se fami liar w ith cond i t ions in th e Westth a t an increa sed levy on fore ign sh ing les would enab le th e p eop le of W e lh ingt on and o th er States to ut i lize much t imb er th a t wa s b e ing wa sted in left tops,h igh stump s, and low -

grad e log s ; a view of th e ma t t er th a t h a s proven correct.Y our coni ii i i ssiouers recommend th a t t h e Government of British Columb ia

should take such steps a s may b e w ith in i t s p ower to secure similar leg isla tion.

This is of vital importance w ith us. and one reason wh y we wantto get right directly at this po int . I have o ffered a nia to Mr.

Fordney that I think is a little bit pla iner than the one o ered b efore ,

'

b ecause i t shows the t imber l imits of western Canada , ande speci a lly those that lie ad j acent to our t erritorv on Vancouver

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302 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

particular value to the maj ority of the mills in the U nited States.P erhaps tha t po int is well taken ; but a t the same time i f there i s

any j ustice or any right in this reciprocity act , then, I say i f you

are going to have reciprocity let us have re ciproc i ty ; let us havereciprocal treatment 11 on every part wherever we can secure anybenefit, no matter whet er it is 10 p er cent or anything e lse .

Mr. HILL. Y ou are on th e shore of P uget Sound ?Mr. SKINNER . Y es

,sir.

Mr. HILL. D o you use any Canadian log s ?Mr. SKINNER. No , sir ; but there are plenty of mills in Washing

ton that are using them when they can g et them.

Mr. HILL. They are so ld by the Government , are they not ?

Mr. SKIN NER. No . sir ; they are so ld by th e private owners.

Mr. HILL. From private lands ?Mr. SKINNER . Y es , sir ; Crown

-

grant lands . A nd there are onlyabout 8 p er cent of the Crown -

grant lands in the hands of privateowners in fee simple taken prior to 1 8 8 8 .

Mr. HILL. The res triction clause does no t apply to that 8 p er cent ?Mr. SKINNER . The Dominion h as some restriction over those .

Mr. HILL. What is this case we heard of here yes terday or the daybe fore of Canadian logs be ing dumped on the American manufacturers from Victoria ?Mr. SKIN NER. They use a good dea l of freedom in Canada , evi

dently because this law ,which covers all th e land , a l lows a good deal

of discretion in the l ieutenant governor, and sometimes, when the

10 s have been in the water long enough so that they are fearful theyW i l b e eaten up by torredos

,they w il l b e released for 24 hours.

They do that a great dea l upon cedar log s, because there is not sucha demand for cedar logs.

Mr. FORDNEY. There is no importation of logs from British Columbia to Puget Sound except where those restri ctions have been re

moved , and there has not been for years ?Mr. SKIN NER. No .

Mr. FORDN EY. There is none import ed from private or deeded landexcept where that restriction is removed ?Mr. SKINNER. Not to my know ledge , because I do not be lieve any

of that private deeded land is be ing operated so that the logs can beobta ined from it .Mr. FORD NEY. I will say to you tha t under the ir regulations it can

not b e done now .

Mr. GA INES. A s a matter of fact,Mr. Skinner, do these restrictive

measures of the Provinces there apply only to the Crown lands, ordo they apply a lso to lands p rivate ly owned in the same Province ?Mr. SKINNER . The only lands that. can b e rivately owned are

those taken prior to 1 8 8 7 and they were so smalland the percentagei s so sma ll that they are not to b e taken into considerati on at all,even though they may not come w ithin this act . It is unquestionable that they do come with in this act . I think the Dominion doesreta in contro l

_

over them. Here is a short clause that covers practi ca lly all of i t :

A ll t imb er cut under lea se,sp ecia l license , or genera l license from provincial

lands ly ing west of th e Ca scad e Range of mounta ins must b e manufacturedwi th in the confines of th e Province of Bri t ish Columb ia , oth erwise the lease orspecml lice nse or genera l license sha ll b e c anceled .

RECIPROC ITY W ITH CA N AD A . 303

Mr. HILL . That does not re fer to private lands ?Mr. SK INNER. There are no private lands .

Mr. HILL. Y ou sa id 8 p er cent.Mr. SKINNER . Y ou can fi nd further in this law that it does apply

to Crown grants .

Mr. HILL . Mr. Gaines asked you i f th e restriction applied to pri

yat

glands. That law which you have read does not apply to private

‘

an s.

Mr. SKINNER . Th e private lands which they are sell ing that weret aken prior to the time this law took effect .Mr. FORD N EY. Merri l R ing own lands in Vancouver that were

pi

li

l

rchased at cash.

entry from the Canadian Government in 18 8 2 .

ey began Operati ons fi ve or six years ago to lumber that timber andbring it over to the American side , and were stopped by regulations.

Mr. SKIN NER . Here is another provision that covers the Crownlands, under leaseholds, some of them l icensed , some Crown lands andsome leaseho lds, and it seems to me this provision would make us

blush w ith modesty. The substance of it is :There sha ll b e due and p ayab le to H is Majesty , h is h e irs, and successors, a

tax upon all t imb er out with in th e Province of Bri t ish Columb ia , save and ex

cep t tha t up on wh ich a roya lty i s re served b y th is sec tion or th a t upon wh ichany royalty or tax is p ayab le to th e Government of th e D ominion of Canada ,wh ich fact sh all b e in accordance w i th th e follow ing sch eduleTh e following reb a tes on tax sh a ll b e a llowed wh en th e timb er upon wh ich

it is due or payab le is manufactured for use in th e Province of Bri tish Columb ia ra te p er th ousand feet , b oard mea sure , on grad e.

It starts in W ith logs 4 0 feet long and 24 inches in diameter,No . 1

,

$2 p er thousand ; No . 2, p er thousand ; No . 3

, $1 . It runs downto 8 0- feet logs, which , on No . 1 , are $4 a thousand . We do not haveany No . 3 logs ; we do not know What they are . For logs of largerdiameter, from 24 inches to 4 8 inches , it runs from to forNo. 1 , and from t o p er thousand for No . 2 .

Mr. GA INES. Wh at are you reading from now ?Mr. SKIN NER . This is th e tax that is exacted i f you do not manu

facture the timber in Brit ish Co lumbia .

Mr. GA INES . Can you g ive the act ?

Mr. SKIN N ER . I w ill submit this t o you (see p .

Mr. GA INES . I think maybe I have it here .

Mr. SK INNER. Chapter 30 of A n act to amend and conso l idatethe laws affecting Crown lands, conso lidated for convenience onlyMarch 21

,

Mr. GA INES. I have th e 19 10 copy,I think. Let me see i f I fo llow

that. Am I to understand that that is a tax which the Dominioniifiipos

l

es upon timberlands unless th e timber is manu factured overt ere .

Mr. SK INNER . That is right. I f manu factured there it is reducedto 1 cent a thousand .

Mr. GA INES. Is that a Dominion law ?Mr. SKIN NER. That is a provincia l law .

Mr. GA INES. So that th e provincia l law does prevent , as a matter offact

, the free exportation of logs cut from private lands ?Mr. SKINNER . It does. It takes in the Crown grants and all.

Mr. GA INES. That has been denied here .

Mr. SK INNER . A s I say , I was hurried away from the P acific coast ,frommatters of vital importance t o me there, to protest against thi s

304 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

action. and to show i f I could,why we were entitled to reci procal

consideration w ith o ther wood products . Mr. Roosevelt'

was at leastconsistent, even i f we did no t agree w ith h im,

wh eno

he sa i d h e wantedt o t ake the duty off all w ood products . Mr. P inchot a fterwardsagreed with us ; he would no t segreg ate the wood products and givethe news paper and print paper p eople the benefit of the d i fferent i al .Mr. RA N D ELL. Does that affect your business in any way ?

Mr. SKINNER. It would a ffect our business to this extent , i f theprice of lumber ot so low ,

as it is at present, and we wanted tomanu facture lumber—as we have to w i th our plant—we could buythe logs from British Columbia , and we are entitled to the same consideration whether we buy print paper or whether the provision isapplied to wood ulp and to print paper.

Mr. RA N DELL. hatever the conditions in re ference to wood pulpand paper, would that have anything to do w ith th e lumber business ?Mr. SKIN NER . I do not know tha t it would have anything to do

w ith'

the lumber business, but I should like to have the act cousistent and applied to all commodities . I f it is reasonab le to apply itto pulp wood

,it ought to b e to wood of all kinds.

Mr. RA N D ELL . It really does not a ffect your lumber interests anymore than it does sugar interests ?Mr. SKIN N ER . I do no t think it does. But we would l ike to have

th e same privilege as they recognize by providing for the printpaper and pulp people . I can no t see why they should exclude a

commodity that is used a thousand fold more than that .

Mr. RA N DELL. Y ou think i f anything is taxed lumber ought to be ?Mr. SKIN NER . I think i f anything should b e al lowed to b e im

ported it would b e logs for lumber. I w i ll te ll you Why I be lievethat

,because I do not be lieve i f you reduce the price of print paper

from $4 5 to $4 2 a ton tha t you would buy your paper at seven- eighthsof a cent each ; in o ther words , tha t you would reach the ultimateconsumer. On the coast we p ay 5 cents a piece for papers. I donot believe i f they would reduce th e price of paper to the news

papers I would get any newsp aper on Sunday at 4 3, or 4 cents.

But I w il l tel l you that I might get 10 pounds of paper full ofslander and slush .

Mr. HILL. D o I understand tha t you would favor th e po l icy of abill that would seek to g e t free importation ?Mr. SKIN NER . I frankly say to you that we are opposed to it .Mr. HILL . I mean that particular feature . D o we understand

that you are opposed to tha t feature of the bill seeking to get nurestricted exportation of pulp w ood ?

.

Mr. SKIN N ER . I say we think w e are entitled to the same con

Si deration they get . There is no consistency in our no t gett ing it.I say

-

to you that it is of vita l importance to us. I f we want to buyour t imber from Canada , we can tow ra fts of logs a hundred milesj ust as we l l as you can a mile ; from the terminus of our own ra ilroads wc tow them 60miles. I f you w ant to truly conserve the t imb er—

’

i f that is what you are a fter—le t us use theirs ; let us have thepriv i lege of nsmg i t

, and i f our lumber reaches such a price that itI

l

s too low for us to cut our own t imber we wil l save ours and cutt i e irs.

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306 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Mr. FO RD N EY . Y ou have sp oke n ofl'

li a ii d , and it. woul d b e properfor you t o look over th e minutes and correct any error in figures youmay have made .

Mr. SKIN N ER . O ne thing that we would get a benefit from in thistariff commission investigation would b e th e fact that they wouldhave to take into consideration all of th e col la tera l issues, as to whatit rea lly cost us to manu facture lumber compared w ith wha t it costacross th e l ine , wha t th e timber co st , and things of that kind . Thatseems to b e thrown out of the equation here entirely. Tha t seems to

have been settled by the mere st atement that we must have their lumb er. There is a lso th e collatera l issue of th e cost of transporta tion toth e principa l markets. l-Ve are looking w ith considerable interest tot he op p ortunity o f ship p ing t o t he east co a st o f th e U nited Statesthrough the cana l .Ii i taking the statistics for your tariff deba te s it is un fortuna t e that

1907 was taken as that happened to b e th e highest year in th e knownhistory of the lumber industry, as compared w ith one of th e lowestyears in the lumber industry, that is, 1 8 97 . They should have takenth e comparison for the past 10 years . They w ould have found thecomparison was much more advantag eous for lumber. It did not

show such an apparently abnorma l advance .

In 1 906, I exhausted every vessel on the P acific coast tha t was

obta inable for shipment to New York , and t o our concern there andI advanced my own freight rate , by means of b idst o secure tonnage ,from on th e first vesse l to on th e last vessel I go t . Iwas informed a t tha t time that the averag e ra te of fre ight fromBritish Co lumbia was $8 to $12 a thousand

, and it h as since beenconfirmed .

Now it is a serious question wha t is go ing to happ en on th e P acificcoast when th e P anama Cana l is opened . I consider it th e mostserious menace we have ever met .

I was considerably amused the o ther day a t hearing that some one

te legraphed th e P resident tha t w e on the P acific coast ought toce lebrate the opening of the P anama Cana l as a grea t event , becauseit wi ll open th e trade of th e O rient t o us. Now .

i f any body can

te l l me what w e should celebrate for on the P acific coa st?

when theP anama Cana l is Opened I w ish they would do so . I have been nu

able to fi nd it , and the orienta l trade w ill pa ss right. b v our doorsfrom th e cana l instead of passing through our ports. t a t we havego t to have is more means of transportation , and we w ant to en

courag e means of water transportat io n in American ves se ls . Now ,

i f you take the lumber and compel them to manu facture it in BritishCo lumbi a and ship it over th e Canad ian P a cific line . w e Americansare no t

.

only g o ing t o lose the $10 a tho us and invo lved in the costof logg ing the tree and the manu facturing of th e lumber,

but a lso anaverag e , say . of $12 a thousand for haul ing and in labor in th etransportati o n .

We areo

also go ing to b e dep rived o f any p ossili illiV of ut ilizin <r

the cana l in comp e tition wi th fore ign vesse ls from British C o lumbiato the eastern co ast. b e c ause o f our coastw ise shippin g laws . Nowyou have. go t to do one th ing or the other. I f you aIe Go ing to b e;so rad i ca l a s to p ut us out. of business , then y ou h avg Got t o b erad i cal enough to put us ba ck into bus ine ss b y giving us fli e use offore ign sh ips between the two co a s ts , or by a llo w ing us to buy for

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 307

s ign - built ships and put them under the American flag , and so changeour nav i g at i on laws so that w e can use them in compe tition w ithvesse ls of other flags .

M r. FORD N EY . Or rebate the t o l ls g o ing through the cana l .Mr. S K IN N ER . I w a s quite confident

,when w e asked for a rebat e

gomg through the cana l , tha t we would have this modera te duty as

we ll as tha t reb a te . O f course the shorter you make your haul ina fore i gn sh i p the more you approximate the cost of operating th eAmeri can vesse l . I can produce , i f the committee w ish es it, an offerwithin the last y ear to construct a vesse l abroad a t and th elowest bid here w a s for a common fre ight carrier, carryinglumber on the P acific coast . That bid w as t o build it in Eng land for

and th e lowest bid here was which makes a difference of 100 p er cent . Now they can operate a t ha l f th e cost . We

can no t live in comp etition w ith them,and w e know that there is no

dispute over it . I have a lso w anted ,i f possible

,t o have this duty

ma inta ined in addition to the reb ate on cana l to lls,so th at we would

have that additiona l advantage , because it takes 65 days around th eHorn

,and th e difference in cost Of labor and the difference in cost of

interest and taxes and insurance and everything invo lved in th ecase is a great dea l mo re than i f i t takes 25 days to pass through thecana l from Puget Sound t o New York ; consequently your differenceis larger in favor of a foreign vesse l on a t i yo month’

s passage thanon a passage of 9 5 or 30

Mr. HILL . I f the people on Puget Sound can send the ir ships toA ustra lia in competition , do you think that you ought to lie awakeni hts worrying about competing ?

I r. SKIN NER . We have g o t the same ships h e h as to send fromP uget Sound to S idney, but no t a ship to send from P ug et Sound toNew York, b ecause of th e coastw ise law s . Th e coastw ise laws preventus. Give us th e same facilities for transportation , and w e can meethim on h is own ground b ut take it th e o ther way and we can no t meethim at all

,because the coastw ise laws prevent us from using fore ign

vessels, and w e hope they w i ll prevent it . That is offset by th e wa iv

ing of the to l ls in th e P anama Cana l , and this moderate dutyMr. M CCA LL. Is there anything that you want to put in your re

marks,to supplement what you have sa id in th e record ? I f so , you

might hand it to th e stenog rapher sometime this a fterno on or evening .

Mr. SKIN N ER . Thank vou . Mr. McCa ll, for your courtesy.

CH A PTER 30.—A n act to amend and conso lida te t h e law s affecting C rown lands .

[ C onso lid a ted for convenience only , M ar. 2 1 ,

H is Maje sty , b y and w ith t h e advice and consent of t h e L eg isla t ive A ssemb lyof th e P rovince of Brit ish Co lumb ia , enacts a s follows :

SHORT TITLE.

1 . Th is a c t may b e c ited a s th e land act . (C . A . 1 8 8 8 , c . 66, s .

INTERPRETA TION .

2 . M caning of certa in terms—In th e construction and for th e purp oses Of th isact (if not inconsi stent w i th th e context or sub ject ma tter ) , th e fo llow ing termssha ll h ave th e resp ect ive mean ings h ere ina fter a ss igned to th em :

Crown lands. Crown lands sh a ll mean and include such ungranted Crownor p ub lic lands or C rown doma in a s are wi th in and b e long to H is Ma j esty in

308 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

righ t of th e P rovince of Bri tish Columb ia . and wh eth er or not any wa ters flow

over or cove r th e same . (1 906, c. 24 , s .

P a tented Ia n.ds. P a tented land s sh a ll mean lands granted b y th e Crown

during t h e p e riod commenc ing on t h e 7 th day of A pril, A . D . 1 8 8 7 , and end ing

on th e 2 8 th d a y o f A pri l, I) . i sxs ,

Ti -mb cr Timb er lea seh o ld sh all mean land s included in timb erleases granted a fter the 3l st day of D ecemb er, 1 8 7 9 , and lands included in any

timb er lea se h e re a fter granted .

'I’i 'mb cr limi ts—“

T imb er limits sh a ll mean lands spec ified and compri sedin any t imb er license . (U . A . 1 8 8 8 ,

c . 66 ,s . 2 and 62 ; 1 906 , c . 24 . s . 2 ; 1907 ,

c. 25 , s.

I’REI'JM I’TION OF C ROWN LA ND S .

31 . L and tha t ma y b e prccnlp ted—Cancrila i ion of records—Timb erla nds not

to b e p i‘

t’cmzmrd .

—NO preemp t ion record sh a ll b e granted exce p t for land takenup for agricultura l purp oses. and t h e ch ief commissioner may cancel any such

record wh en i t sh a ll b e shown to h is sa t isfact ion th a t t h e same h as b een

ob ta ined for o th e r th an agricultura l purp o ses . Timb erland s , a s sp ec ified in sub

section (5 ) of sect ion 34 of th is act , sh a ll not b e op en for preemp t ion (1907 ,c. 25 , s.

SA LE OF CROWN LA ND S .

(5 ) F irs t - cla ss lands—Second - cla ss lands—Timb crlmuls no t to b e sold .

Lands wh ich are suitab le for a gricultura l purp oses or wh ich a re cap ab le of

b e ing b rough t und er cult iva t ion profita b ly , or wh ich are w ild h ay meadow lands,sha ll rank and b e class ified a s fi rst - cla ss land s. A ll oth er la nds , o th er thant imb erland s , sh a ll rank and b e cla ssi fi ed a s second - cla ss land s. T imb erlands( tha t is land s wh ich conta in mi lling t imb er to t h e average exten t of e igh tth ousand fee t t o th e acre west of '

th e C acsades. and fi ve th ousand feet p er acreeast of th e Ca sca des, to each one h undred and sixty acres ) , sh a ll no t b e open

for sa le .

CROWN GRA NTS OF SU BSID Y LA ND S .

38 . A ll grants of Crown land s ma de , or to b e made . to any p erson or corporation to a id th e construction of a ra ilw ay or o th er work sha ll b e sub jec t to theland laws of t h e p rovince . excep t to th e extent tha t such law s are expresslyvaried b y th e terms of such sub sidy ac t . Th e provis ions of th is sec tion shalla p ply to a ll grants of Crown land s h ere tofore made (1 908 , c. 30, s .

LEA SES .

4 8 . Sarina clause re existing pulp leases—Notw ith stand ing any th ing con

fa ined in ch a p ter 30 of th e Sta tutes of 1 903—4 , th e p owers and d iscre t ion of th eCrown and t h e just righ ts and privilege s of th ose persons wh o in good fa ithh ave comp lied. w ith th e provisions of th e sect ions of th e

“land act rela ting

to pulp lea ses sh a ll b e preserved . (1 903—4 , c. 30, s.

TIM BER LA ND S .

4 9 . R enewa l of Imam—A ll lea ses o f unsurveyed and unp ree inp ted Crownt imb er land s , wh ich h ave b een granted for a p eriod of twenty - one y ears, mayb e renewed for consecut ive and successive p eriods of twenty - one yea rs , sub j ectto such terms, cond it ions, roya lt ies, and ground rents a s may b e in force b y

'

Sta tute a t t h e t ime o f th e exp ira t ion o f such i'

e s p ect ive lea s e s : P rovided .that:

such renewa l is a p p lied for w ith in one y ear previous t o the exp ira t ion of theth en- ex ist ing le a se : and p rovid e d . th a t a ll a rrears of ro ya lt ie s , ground rents,and oth er ch arges are first fully p a id .

A ll exist ingr lea se s of (‘rown t imb er limits wh ich h ave b een granted previous

to t h e p a ssa g e of th is sect io n o f t h e“land ac t and now in force may b e

renewe d fo r eo n . "-e u t i \ 'e and suc c e ss ive p e rio d s o f twenty - one ye a rs : Provided ,tha t such ex ist ing lease s sh all b e surrend ered wi th in one year from t he da teof t h e enactment of th is sect ion.

A nd it is furlh er ena c ted th a t such lea ses may b e renewed for th e unexp iredp ort ion o f t h e te rm ment ioned in th e le a se s to b e surrendered on th e same

,

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3 10 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Tra nsfe r and of s p e c ia l t imb e r lic e ns e s h ere aft e r'iS'RIt P tL of

sp e c ia l t imb e r A ll sp e c ia l t imb er lice nse s wh ich ma y h erea fterb e is sue d sh a ll b e t ransfera b le and sh a ll b e renew a b le ea c h y e ar for iW Oll tY

- Ofle

succ e s s ive y e a rs . W h e n a ny suc h license sh a ll b e g ra nted in resp ect of landsi tua t e d w ith in te n mi le s of an incorp o ra ted town or c ity , or in re sp ect of lands itua te in th e i i e in lty of any re g is t e red town s ite , th e same ma y b e renewed

only a t t h e d is c re t ion o f th e e h ie t‘

commissi o ner. (1 9 06 , c . 24 ,s .

Tra nsfer a nd re li c /ri l l. of sp e c ia l t imb e r Eve ry sp ecial t imb erlicense sh a ll b e tra nsfera b le and sh a ll b e renewa b le from ye a r to y e ar wh ile

th ere is on t h e land inc lud ed in such lic e nse in e i-

eh zin ta b le t imb er in suffi cientquant ity to make i t c ommercia lly va lua b le (p ro o f w h ereof must b e furnish edto th e sa t is fa c t ion of t h e ch i e f e o in in iss ioner ) . if t h e terms and cond it ions of

th e license and t h e p rovis ions of th e land act and of any regula t ions p a ssed b yord er in counc il re sp ect ing or a ffect ing th e same h ave b een comp lied w ith :

Provided , h oweve r, th a t th e h old er of any license w h o w ish es t o re new und er

t h e p rovis ions of th is sub sect ion sh a ll surrende r h is o ld license and a ll p rivilege s a p p erta ining th ere to w i th in two y ears from th e first d ay o f A pril, 19 10,and sh a ll a t such t ime a p p ly for t h e renewa l th ereof under t h e p rovis ions of

th is sub section , and sh a ll, in a dd i t ion to a ll o th er p ayments to b e made h e re

under, p ay a fee of twenty d o llars : Provid ed , th a t such renewa l sh a ll b e sub

ject to th e p ayment of such renta l or license fee and such t ax or roy a lty and

to such terms and cond i tions , regula t ions and restric ions a s a re fixed or imp osed b y any sta tute or ord er in counci l in force a t th e t ime renewa l is mad e ,or a t any t ime th erea fter. W h en any such license sh a ll b e granted in resp ec tof land situa ted w i th in t en mi le s of an incorp o ra ted t own or c ity , or in resp ectof land si tua te in th e vicinity of any reg istered town si te , th e same may b e

renewed only a t t h e d iscre t ion of th e ch ief commiss ioner : P rovided ,th a t wh en

ever th e land includ ed w i th in any such license sh a ll, a fter an insp ect ion h a s

b een mad e b y th e ch ief commiss ioner, b e a scerta ined t o b e fit for se ttlementand to b e required for th a t purp ose , th e ch ief commiss ioner may require th elicensee to carry on and comp le te t h e cutt ing and remova l o f th e t imb er th ereonw ith in such rea sona b le t ime a s th e ch ie f commiss ioner may fi x and p re scrib e ,and on th e exp ira t ion of such t ime , o r any extens ion th ereof, t h e license sh a ll

b e cance lled and th e land inc lud ed th ere in sh a ll b e o p e ned fo r sett lement on such

terms and cond i t ions a s t h e lieutena nt governorma y th ink fit . ( 1 9 10 . c . 2 8 . 8 .ti . )

F ees for renewa l. of sp ec ia l t imb er license . Th e fee for such renewa l ofsp ecia l t imb er license sh a ll b e p a id b efore th e exp ira t ion of suc h license : Provided , h oweve r, th a t i f i t sh a ll a pp ea r th a t t h e h o lder of any such licens e h a sfa i led or neglected t o p ay th e renewa l fee b efore th e exp ira t ion of t h e licenseh e sh a ll, up on p ayment of such fee and an a dd i t iona l sum of twenty - fi ve dollars w ith in three month s a fter such exp ira tion , b e ent itle d to a renewa l ofth e license : P rovid ed a lso , tha t t h e h o ld er of any sp ecial t imb er license wh oh a s fa iled or neglected t o p ay th e renewa l fee for any license w h ich exp ired onor since t h e first d ay of Novemb er, 1 907 , sh a ll h ave t h e p rivilege o f ob ta ininga renewa l of such license , p rovid ed th e land covered th ereb y is sti ll vacantcrow n land , up on p ayment of such fees a s would h ave b een p ayab le h a d suchlicense b een kep t in good stand ing and an a dd it iona l sum of fi ftv d o lla rs foreach license if ap p lica t ion for th e same b e made w ith in s ix tv day s from th ep a ssing of th is act .

Survey No licensee wh o e lects to renew h is license und er th e provisions of sub sect ion (2 ) of th is sect ion , and no person wh o takes out a licensea fter th e fifteenth d ay of A pri l, 1 905 , sh a ll b e a llowed to cut or carrv awav

my t imb er from o tf any suc h t imb er limit unle ss t h e sa id license'

h as , ath i s own exp ense ,

'

had t h e land survey ed b y a duly quanfi ed p rovincia l landsurveyor. Th e ch i e f commiss ioner of lands and wo rks may . h owever. a t anyt ime “o t lfy th e 1101d t‘ 1‘ O f any S llecia l t imb er license to h ave th e land coveredb y such l icense survey ed b y a duly qua lified p rovincia l land survevo r w ith in a

t ime t o b e ment ioned in such no t ice . and if such land sh a ll no t‘

b e survey edw ith in such time , or W ith in such furth er t ime a s may b e granted b y th e chiefcommiss ioner of land s and W o rks th erefor t h e h o lder of such li h~ll ffe i t a ll h is rig h ts to t h e t imb er on s

cense S a 01

a id land . and such li cense sh a ll b ecome nulland ve i d . (1 905 , c . 33 , s . 3 ; e . QR, s ,

lea

5

s

8

ehflv

gh

ii iofl

remi

t ne

l

ro s s t imbe r c h ute s

, e ta—'

A ny h old er of a t imb er0

n ) er ant in u snnp le . 01 of a sp ec i a l t imb er li cense who mayd eS ll'e to secure 21 rig h t Of W il y “c ro ss any land s for th e purp o se o f construct in

chutes, flump g ’ road s , or o th er f‘W use in g e tt ing o ut

-

t imb er from t hilimi t co ve red b y h i s lea se o r lice nse

, sh a ll g ive th irty days’

no t ice of h is luten

REC‘IP ROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 3 1 1

t ion to a p p ly to th e ch ief commissioner of land s for auth ori ty to construct suchchutes , flame s

, ro a d s . or o th er works b y an advert isement p ub l ish e d one monthin th e B ri ti sh Co lumb ia Ga ze tte and in a new sp a p er p ub lish ed or circula ted inth e d is trict in wh ich th e land is s i tua te d . Th e a p p licant sh a ll a lso g ive th irtyday s no t i ce to th e owner o f th e land over, th rough , or upon wh ich such chutes ,fi unies . road s . or o th er works a re to b e constructed . Such no t ice may b e g ivenp ersona lly or in such manner a s may b e d irected b y th e ch ief commissioner.

Th e ch ief commis s ioner i s h e reb y emp o w ere d t o g rant o r re fuse such ap p lication up on such terms and cond i t ions a s t he c ircumstances may w arra nt. Th ea p p licant sh a ll b e granted only a righ t of wa y forty fee t w id e , and a ll workssh a ll b e confined to sa i d a re a , and t h e t itle ob ta ined b y th e a p p licant sh a ll, b eonly an ea sement : P rovided . th a t comp ensa t ion for sa id righ t of wa y sh a ll b ep a id for b efore an ent ry is mad e on sa id land , and if t h e p art ies canno t agreeon th e amount of sa id comp ensa t ion, th en th e same sh a ll b e submitted to a rb itra t ion and se ttled in accord ance w ith t h e terms and under th e p rovisions ofth e

“arb itra tion ac t . Such ch ute s, flume s

, road s, or o ther wo rks sh a ll no t b eloca ted or construc ted on any land s on wh ich b ui ld ings h ave b een erected orwh ich may b e in use a s gardens o r orch ards . Th e b enefits and b urdens h ere inb efore ment ioned sh a ll insure t o t h e h e irs . executo rs , a dminis tra to rs . successors.

and a ssigns of th e p ersons a ffected . (1 906, c . 24 , s . 1 9 ; 1 907 , c . 25 , s. 20 ; 1 9 10,

c. 2 8 . s.

59 . R ig h ts and p owers of licensee und e r a sp ec ia l lice llsc .

—Th e sp ecia l licensesh a ll ve st in th e h o lder th ereof a ll righ ts of p ro p erty wh a tsoever in a ll trees ,t imb er, and lumb er cut w i th in th e l imits of th e license during t h e term th ereof,wh eth er th e trees , t imb er, and lumb er are cut b y auth ority of th e licensee or

b y any o th er p erson w ith or w ith out h is consent , and such license sh a ll enti tlet he h o ld er th ereof to se ize , in revind ica t ion or o th erw ise , such trees .

t imb er,

or lumb er w h e re th e same are found in th e p ossession of any unauth ori zedp erson, and a lso to inst itute a ny a ct ion a ga inst. any wrongful p o sse ssor or tresp a sser, and to p rosecute a ll tresp a ssers and o th e r offend ers to pun ishment , andto re co ver dama g es ,

if any ; and a ll p ro ceed ings p end ing a t th e exp ira t ion ofany license may b e cont inued to fina l termina t ion a s if th e license h ad no texp ired .

Qua rry/ing lea s es ma y b e is s ue d in. resp e c t of la nds h-clll nmlcr sp ec ia l t imb erlicens e o r t imb e r lea se—No tw ith stand ing any th ing in th is a ct conta ined , i tsha ll b e lawful for th e lieutenant governor in counci l to grant lea ses for quarrying purp o ses of any lands h eld under sp ec ia l t imb er license or t imb er lea se , or

any p art th ere of. up o n such t erms and co nd i t ions a s ma y b e d eemed a dvisab le .

(C . A . lflss . c . on. s . 69 : 1 909 , c . 28 . s.

60. [ l a nd lor/ac r'

s license . In add it io n to t h e specia l licenses auth orizedb y section 54 of th is a c t . and no tw i th stand ing th e reserve p la ced upon t imb erb y ord e r in co unc il, d a ted 24 t h D ecemb e r, 1 907 . th e ch ief commiss ioner ma y .

upon p ayment of th e sum of twenty - fi ve do llars th erefor. grant a genera l

license t o cut t imb er from Crown land s , no t b e ing t imb er limits or leases , andwi th in such a rea a s ma y b e specified or d esigna ted in such license or lea se ; b ut

such license sh a ll b e p ersona l, and sh a ll only grant auth ori ty to th e p erson

named th ere in to cut t imb e r a s a h and logger. and such license sh a ll b e in force

for one y ear from t h e da te th ereof. and no longer.

Li censees , erc cp t in ca se of Ind i a ns. mus t b e P rovinc ia l p o le rs . No

license und er th is sect ion sh a ll b e granted to any p erson wh o is not on t h e listof vo ters for th e le gisla ture of th e P rovince of B ritish Columb ia . excep t p ersonsof th e Ind ian race .

D e termina t ion of a rea to b e included in li cense Th e a rea t o b e sp ecifiedor designa t ed in ea ch license granted und er th is sec t ion sh a ll. b efore th e grant

ing of th e license . b e insp ected b y th e forest ranger or one of t h e - a ssi stanttimb er insp ectors. or such o th er p erson a s may b e auth ori zed b y t h e ch ief commissioner for th a t purp ose .

S team p ower, e tc. , no t to b e used b y licensee . Th e h old er of a license

granted under th is sect ion sh a ll n o t use steam p ower, or mach inery o p era ted b ysteam p ow er, in carry ing on lumb er opera t ions under such license .

P ena lty . A ny p erson b e ing th e h o ld er o f a license granted under th issect ion , wh o sha ll viola te t h e provisions of th e preced ing

r sub sec t ions h e reof,

sha ll b e lia b le , on summa ry convict ion b efore a stip end ia ry ma gistra te , to a pen

a lty of no t le s s th an tw enty - fi ve d olla rs and no t exceed ing one hundred dollars

for each offense . (1 909 , c . 2 9 . s .

61 . A ssignments of t imb er leases and sp ecia l t imb er licenses—Every a ss ign

ment of a t imb er lea se or spec ia l t imb er license sh a ll b e filed in th e dep a rtment

3 1 2 REC IPROC ITY wrri-r CA N A D A .

of land s , a nd a fee o f fi ve d o lla rs sh a ll b e p a y a b le in re sp e ct of ea ch lea se or

license a ss ign ed . (1 906 , c. 24 , s . 1 3 ; 1 907 , c . 1 . s . 1 7 ; 1 9 10. c . 28 . s .

62 . Va li da ti on of sp eci a l t imb er li censes h ere tofore i ssued—A ll sp ecia l Umb er

licenses and a ll renewa ls th e reof h ereto fore granted sh a ll b e d eemed t o h aveb een lega lly granted , b ut noth ing in th is sect ion conta ined sh a ll a ffect any lega l

pro ce ed ing now p end ing re sp ect ing a ny such license o r renew a l th e re of. (1 906 ,

c . 24 , s. 14 .

63 . Va li ddtion of certa in lea ses h ere tofore granted—Th e lea ses h ere inafter

se t out and wh ich h ave a lready b e en g ra nted a re h ereb y va lid a ted a nd con

fi rmed , and sh a ll have th e same force and e ffect a s if granted a fter t h e p a ssingof th is a ct :

L ea se d a ted Se p temb er 1 2 th , 1 909 ,issued t o A nd rew R ich ards .

L ease da ted O ctob er 1 5 th . 1 901 , issued t o R o ss Ma h on .

L ea se da ted Feb ruary 26th , 1 904 , issued to W . E . Norris and P . A . Hovelaque .

L ea se d a ted J uly 2 8 th , 1 904 , issued to t h e Cre scent O y ster C omp any . L imi ted .

L ea se da ted J une 27 th , 1 905 , i ssued to Cre scent Oy ster Company , L imi ted .

A nd lease da ted J une 27 th , 1 905 , issued to Crescent Oy ster Company , L imi ted .

P rovid ed th a t w ith resp ect to any ap p lica tions for lea se s of Crown lands

w i th in th e meaning of th is act , made b efore th e p a ssag e of th is a ct , if th e

a p p licants th ere for h ave b ona fi d e comp lied w ith t h e provis io ns of sub sect ions(2 ) ” and (3 ) of section 4 1 of s aid ch a p ter 11 3 to the

"sa t isfact ion of t h e ch ief

commissioner o f land s and works , th e ch ief commiss ioner of land s and works

may , no tw ith stand ing th a t th e sa id a p p lica t ions were mad e and t h e pro

v isions of th e sa id sub sections (2 ) and (3 ) were comp lied w ith b efore the

pa ssa ge of th is act , grant lea ses of such Crown lands und er th e provisions of

th is act . (1 906, c . 24 , s .

64 . L i censes no t to b e g ranted ove r Indian reserves , e ta—No t imb er license

sh a ll b e granted in resp ect of lands forming th e s ite of an Ind ian se ttlementor re serve , and t h e ch ief commissioner may refuse to grant a license in resp ectof any p art icular land if, in th e op inion of t h e lieutenant governor in council,i t is d eemed exp ed ient in th e pub lic interest so to d o . (C . A . 1 8 8 8 . c . 66. s.

65 . Ground rent , fi ve cents p er acre—Ia add it ion to t he roya lty h ere ina fterreserved on a ll t imb er cut on t imb er lea seh old s , th ere sh a ll b e p a id annua lly ,

a s ground rent , th e sum of fi ve cents p er acre for ea ch acre included in anyt imb er lea se wh ich h a s b een granted since th e 31 st day of D ecemb er, 1 8 7 9 , and

prior to th e 2 8 th day of A p ril. 1 8 8 8 . (C . A . 1 8 8 8 . c . 66 , s .

66 . R oya lty reserved t o t h e Crown on a ll t imb e r a nd wood ent up on (frown.

lands , p a tented lands , o r t imb e r lea seh o lds. Th ere is reserved to and for

th e use of H is Majesty . h is h e irs and successors , a roya lty of fifty cents forevery th ousand fee t . b oa rd mea sure , upon and in respect of a ll t imb er suita b lefor sp a rs . p ile s ,

saw log s. or ra i lroad t i es , p rop s for mining p urp o s e s sh ing le

or o th er b o lts of ced ar, fi r, or spruce . and a roy a lty of tw enty - nve cents fo revery co rd o f o th e r wo o d cut up on Crown land s , p atented la nd s . t imb er lea se

h old s , or t imb er limits , and up on any land s h erea fter granted . P iles sh all b emea sured b y th e runn ing foot. and ra i lwa y t ies and prop s sh a ll b e mea suredb y th e cord : and for th e purp oses of th is act two h undred running fee t of p iles.

or one cord of t ies or prop s. sh a ll b e taken resp ect ive ly a s equa l to one th ousandfee t b oard mea sure . (1 8 9 6 , c . 2 8 , s .

Tamup on a ll t imb er er ce p t th a t up on wh ich ro ya lty re s e rved b y preced ingsub sect ion Th ere sh a ll b e due and pa y a b le t o H is Maje s ty , h is h e irs andsucce ssors . a ta x up on a ll t imb e r cut w ith in t h e P rovince o f B ri t ish C olumb ia .

save and exce p t th a t up on wh ich a roya lty is reserved b y th is se ct ion or th a tup on wh ich any roya lty or ta x is p ayab le to t h e Government of th e D ominionof Canada , wh ich tax sh a ll b e in a cco rd anc e w ith th e fo llow ing sch edule s :

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3 1 4 RECIPBOCITY W ITH CA N A D A .

ca tes of improvement, sh a ll b e exemp t from p ayment of roya lty 01' tax U DOH

cord wood cut up on t h e ir pre emp t ion cla ims for sa le : Provided th a t such exempt ion sh a ll cea se wh en a Crown grant is i ssued for th e land . (1 903—4 , c. 30, s.

9 ; 1 907 , c . 25 , s.

67 . L i on for roya lty , was, and re nt—A ll t imb er or wood up on wh ich a royalty

or tax is re se rved , or wh ich ha s b e en cut up on t imb er lea seh olds , sh a ll'

b e liab le

for th e p a yment of th e roya lty o r tax (and in t h e ca se of lea seh old s , for th e rent )b y th is act imposed , so long and wh ere soever t h e t imb er, or a ny part of i t , mayb e found in Bri tish Columb ia , wh e th er in th e orig ina l logs or manufactured intodea l b oard s or o th er stuffs ; and in ca se Such timb er or wood h a s b een made upw ith o th er timb er or woo d into a crib , d am or ra ft , or in any oth er mannerh a s b een so mixed up a s to render i t imp o ss ib le or d ifficult to d ist inguish thet imb er liab le to t h e p ayment of roy a lty , tax, or rent from t imb er o r wood not

so liab le , such o th er t imb er or wood sh a ll a lso b e lia b le for a ll roya lty , tax, and

rent impo sed b y th is act ; and a ll officers or a g ents entrusted w i th t h e collee

tion of th e roya lty , tax, or rent ma y fo llow a ll such t imb er or wood and se izeand deta in t h e same wh erever i t i s found unt il such roya lt ies, tax, and rent,and th e reasonab le costs and exp enses of se i zure and detent ion, are pa id or

secured . (1093—4 , 0. 30, s.

68 . L i en up on steamsh ip s , e ta—Th e Crown sh a ll have a lien up on a ll sawmi llsor oth er factories, steamsh ip s , ra i lw ay and sta t ionary eng ines , sme lters, con

centra tors, and a ll furnaces or mach inery in or for w h ich any t imb er or woodup on wh ich a roya lty or ta x is reserved or p ay a b le in any way ormanner, orforany purp ose , ha s b een or is b e ing manufactured , used , or consumed , a lso upon a ll

steamsh ip s. towb oa ts, scows, or o th er ve sse ls , up on a ll eng ines, logg ing plantorma teria l, and upon a ll ra ilwa y tra ins, teams, and wagons in any way engagedin taking out or in transport ing such t imb er ; such lien to confer t h e same righ ts.

and to b e enforceab le in th e same manner a s th e lien and rig h ts of recovery ofroya lties conferred b y t h e provis ions in th a t b eh a lf of th is act . (1 903—4 , 0. 30,s.

69 . A ccounts and returns—Eve ry le ssee or licensee of t imb er land s, and everyp erson op era t ing a mi ll or o th er industry wh ich may cut or use timb er or

cord wood up on or in resp ect of wh ich any roy a lty or tax is b y th is act reservedor imp o sed , sha ll keep correct b ooks of a ccount of a ll t imb er or cord wood cut orreceived b y or for th em, and sh a ll rend er month ly sta t ements th ereof, or ifdemanded sh a ll furnish a true cop y of t h e ta llyman’

s or sca ler’

s da ily work,duly sworn to , wh ich sh a ll conta in a ll such p art icula rs a s th e Ch ief commiss ionermay require ; and such b ooks o f a ccount sh a ll b e Op en a t a ll reasonab le hoursfor th e insp ect ion of any p erson ap p o inted for carry ing out t h e provisions ofth is act , and such le ssee or licensee , or p erson op era t ing a mill or o th er industry.

sha ll pay month ly a ll sums o f money , a s a re so sh own to b e due , to t h e ch iefcommiss ioner of lands :

(a ) P rovided th a t, if, after sa id inspection of such b ooks of account , i t shallb e found th a t in any previous sta tement th ere is still an amount of t imb er notrep orted , and wh ich is sub ject to roya lty or t ax , th en t h e sa id lessee , o r licensee ,of t imb er lands, and every p erson op era ting a mill or oth er industry , who is inarrear of such roya lty , sh a ll forthw i th p ay such arrea rs, and sha ll b e subjectto a ll t h e provisions of th is a ct for nonp ayment of same . (1 908 , c . 30. s. 69 ;1 9 10, c . 2 8 , s.

70. ill i llowners may collect roy a lti es d ue—Crown lien o n mill and timbertherea t .—It sh a ll b e lawful for any p e rson owning or op era t ing anv mill tocollect th e royalties due to th e Crown upon any lo g s wh ich may b e brough t toh is mill, and to give rece ip ts th ere for. A ll moneys so rece ived sha ll b e accounted for and p a id over to th e Crown. Th e Crown sh a ll h ave a lien uponth e mill and a ll t imb er th erea t , or on a ny land s or wa ters a p purtenant th ereto.

for a ll roya lt ies collected und e r th is sect ion ; such lien to confer th e same righ tsand to b e enforceab le in th e same manner a s th e lien h eld under sec tion 66 ofth is a ct may from t ime to t ime b e . (1003—4 . c . 30, s .

7 1 . Timb er tha t may b e out ”u i lt-110 1” “ovum—Th is act sha ll not b e construedto inflict p ena lties upon free miners (w i th in th e meaning of th e term “

freeminer, ” a s describ ed in th e

“ minera l enga ged in prosp ect ing or in preliminary development work of any minera l or p lacer cla im, wh o sh all g ive satisfactory proof to th e gold commissioner or government agent of th e d istrict inwh ich such minera l or p lacer cla im i s si tua te th a t th e sa id minera l or placercla im is no t b e ing op era ted so th a t any income or profi t is derived th erefrom,

nor upon travellers, nor upon p ersons engag ed in merely scientific purl ui ts orexploring , nor upon farmers cutt ing timb er in connect ion w i th th eir farms, nor

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 3 1 5

upon p ersons cutt ing cord wood for p e rso na l use for fuel for domestic purp osesand not for sa le , or cutting cord wood for sch ool p urposes , no r sh a ll such p ersonb e required to p a y any loya lty or ta x t h ereo n . (1 900, c . 1 7 , s. 1 ; 1 9034 4 , c .

30. s

7° Ti i ic can. no t b e a cqu irc i i to t imb er o ur o n. Crown ,

e tc . , la nd s w i th outIiccnse —S c i- urc of samc b y th c Crow n—If any p erson , w i th out auth ori ty or

oth erw ise th an is p ermi tted b y th is a c t . cuts o r emp loy s , o r induce s any o th erp erson to cut , or a ss ist in cutt ing , any t imb er of any kind on any of t h e Crownlands, pa tented land s , t imb er lea seh o ld s, or t imb er limi ts , or removes or carriesaway any merch antab le t imb er o f any kind so cut , from any such Crown or

patented land s , o r t imb er lea seh o ld s , or limits , h e sh a ll no t acquire any righ tto th e t imb er so cut , or any cla im to any remunera t ion for cutt ing , prep aringth e same for marke t , or convey ing th e same t o or towards marke t . A ny suchtimb er may b e se ized b y t h e ch ie f commissioner, or any government a gent , orb y any agent or p erson a p p o inted und er th i s act , or any p erson act ing underthe auth ority or b y d irect ion of e ith er of th em, and sh a ll b e sold fo r th e b enefit of th e Crown :

(a ) W h en t h e t imb er or saw log s ma de h a s or h ave b een removed b y anysuch p erson ou t o f th e reach of t h e ch ief commiss ioner o r a ss istant commissloner, or any agent a p p o int e d for th e p urp ose of carry ing out t h e provisions ofth is a ct such first -ment ioned p erson sh a ll, in a d d i t ion t o th e lo s s o f h is lab ourand d i sb ursements . forfe i t a sum of t en dollars for ea ch tree (ra ft ing stuff ex

cep ted ) wh ich h e i s p roved to h ave cut , or ca used t o b e cut o r carried away .

( b ) Such sum sh a ll b e recovered w i th co sts in th e name o f th e ch ief commissioner, or a ny government a g ent , in any court h aving jurisd ict ion in civi lma tt ers to t h e amount of t h e p ena lty .

(c ) In such ca ses i t sh a ll b e incumb ent up on th e p a rty ch arged to p rove h isauth ority to cut , and t h e averment only of th e p arty se iz ing or p rosecuting th a the is emp loy ed und er th e auth ori ty of th i s a ct sh a ll b e suffic ient proof th ereof,unless t h e defendant proves t h e contra ry . (C . A . 1 8 8 8 , c . s. 7 8 ; 1 903—4 , 0.

30, s .

7 3 . Wh en t imb e r so cut is m ixed up w i th. o th cr t imb er, HIC u‘

h o ic to b e forfetted unless sep a ra ted b y th e h o ld cr th ereof—W h ere t imb er h a s b een cut

with out auth ori ty on C rown land s, p a tented land s . t imb er lea seh olds, or t imb erlimits. and h a s b een mad e up w ith o th er t imb er into a crib . dam, or raft , or inany oth er manner h a s b een so mixed up a s to rend er it impo ssib le o r d ifficultto distinguish th e t imb er so unlaw fully cut on C rown land s , p a tented lands ,timb er lea seh o ld s , or t imb er limi ts , from o th er t imb er w ith wh ich i t is mixedup , th e wh ole of th e timb er so mixed up sh a ll b e h e ld to h ave b een out w i th outauth ority . and sh a ll b e li ab le to se izure and forfe i ture until sep a ra ted b y th ehold er sa t isfa ctorily to t h e officer making t h e se izure . (C . A . 1 8 8 8 , c . 66 , s.

74 . P ower of offi ce r ma k ing t h e sc inwn—Th e officer mak ing any s e izure und er

th is act may ca ll in any a ss istance necessary for securing and p ro tect ing th e

timb er se ized . c . 2 8 ,s .

7 5 . Sa le of seized f imb er.

—A ll t imb er se i zed und er th i s act sh a ll b e deemedto b e cond emned unless th e amounts due for rent . roya lty , or t ax . and t h e costsand expenses of se izure and d e tent ion , b e p a id w ith in ten d ay s from th e d ayof se izure , or unle ss th e p erson from wh om i t wa s se ized , or th e owner th ereof,with in ten day s from t h e day of se izure , g ive not ice to t h e se i z ing offi cer or

nearest government agent th a t h e d isp utes th e se izure ; fa i ling such p ayment ornotice th e ch ief commiss ioner may order th e sa le of sa id t imb er, or of so muchthereof a s may b e suffi c ient to p ay a ll rents or roy a lt ies d ne . a nd a ll t h e co stsand exp enses of se izure , de tent ion , and sale . (1 903—4 , c . 30, s.

76 . D cfcrmi imfimi of va lid i ty of “ h a res—A ny judge of th e supreme or of a

county court may , upon p e t it ion in a summa ry way , try and d etermine such

se izures , and may ord er t h e delivery of th e t imb er t o th e a lleged owner, up on

h is comp lying w ith th e follow ing requirements :(a ) He sh all first p ay t h e full amount of t h e rent , roya lty , or tax cla imed ,

togeth er w i th a sum equa l t o th e costs and exp enses to th a t t ime incurred in

respect of such se i zure , and sh a ll g ive suffi cient and accep tab le security for

such amount to mee t furth er cost s and exp enses a s th e judge try ing th e ca se

may consider requisi te for th a t p urp o se .

(b ) Such securi ty sh a ll b e taken in t h e name of th e ch ief commissioner toHis Majesty ’

s use , and sh a ll b e d elivered up to and kep t b y th e ch ief commissioner.

(c ) If such se i zed t imb er is condemned , t h e va lue th ereof, or th e amount duefor roya lty , tax , rent , and costs or exp enses , sh a ll b e forthw ith p a id to th e ch ief

3 1 6 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

commissioner, o th erw i se th e p ena lty sh a ll b e enforced and recovered . (1 903—4 .

c . 30, s. 1 7 .

7 7 . I'cna ll

)y for t i l t/ Icing fa lse s ta temen ts to evad e p aymen t of roya lt t es , etc.

Every p erson ava i ling h imself of any fa lse sta tement or oa th to eva de t h e payment of any money s p aya b le under th is act in resp ect to t imb er, or end eavouring to convey out of Bri ti sh Co lumb ia any t imb er in re sp ect of wh ich the

roya lties b y th is act imp osed a re p aya b le , w ith out first p ay ing such roya lties,sh a ll forfe i t th e t imb er in re sp ect of wh ich payment of such moneys is at

temp ted t o b e evad ed , and sh a ll, upon summa ry conviction b efore any two

justices of th e p ea ce , or any st ip end iary or p olice mag istra t e , b e lia b le to a

p ena lty not exceed ing fi ve h undred do lla rs. (C . A . 1 8 8 8 , c . 66 , s .

7 8 . D rawb aclc on exp orted t imb er, e ta—Th e lieutenant governor in council

may a llow , on th e exporta t ion b eyond t h e limi ts of t h e P rovince of any p iles

a nd sp ars, or of any timb ermanufactured a t any mill in Brit ish Columb ia upon

wh ich th e roy a lty b y th is act imp o sed h a s b een p a id , a drawb ack or reb ateequa l t o one - h a lf of th e roya lty p a id up on such timb er. (C . A . 1 8 8 8 , c . 66, s.

7 9 . Rules and regula t ions may b e mad e—Th e ch ief commissioner of lands

and works may , w i th th e ap proval of th e lieutenant governor in council, ap

po int such p ersons and make a ll such rule s and regula t ions a s h e may deem

p rop er for carry ing out t h e p rovis ions of th is ac t . (C . A . 1 8 5 8 , c . 66 , s.

RESERVA TION OF COA L A ND PETROL EU M .

96. No Crown grant issued und er th e land act for land , t h e t itle to wh ich has'

b een acquired a fter th e twenty - seventh day of F eb ruary , A . D . 1 8 9 9 , sh a ll conveyany righ t to coa l or p etro leum wh ich may b e found on such land , and Crown

grants issued for such land sh a ll conta in an exp ress reserva t ion to t h e Crown

of a ll th e coa l and p etroleum found th ere in. (1 8 9 9 , c. 38 , s .

REM OVA L OF TRESP A S SERS .

99 . W h en any p erson i s wrongfully or w i th out lawful auth ori ty in p ossession

o f any pub lic land and refuses to vaca te or a b andon p ossession of th e same , thech ief commissioner of lands and works , or any offi cer or ag ent of th e d ep artmentof land s and works auth orized b y th e ch ief commiss ioner for th a t purpose , may,up on a ffi davi t of th e facts , a p p ly to th e county judge of th e county , or any

stip end iary mag istra te of th e d istrict , in wh ich th e land lies, for a summonsd irect ed to such p erson ca lling up on h im forthwi th t o vaca te or a b andon posses

s ion of t h e sa id land , or w ith in ten day s a fter service of sa id summons to show

cause why an ord er for, h i s remova l sh ould no t b e mad e , and if upon return of

th e summons i t sh a ll a p p ear th a t h e h a s no t va ca ted or a b andoned p ossession,or h e sh a ll no t sh ow good cause to t h e contrary , t h e judg e or st ip end iary mag istra te sh a ll make an order for t h e summa ry remova l of such p erson from such

land , and such ord er sh a ll b e executed b y th e sh eriff, or any b a i liff. or constab le ,or o t h er p erson t o w h om i t sh a ll b e d e livered .

( 1 8 9 7 . c . 2 1 . s .

CROW N GRA NTS OF LA ND PU RCH A SED BEFORE

1 10. In any ca se in wh ich th e ch ief commi ssioner of land s and works, or oth erth e officer for th e t ime b e ing ch arg ed w ith th e duty of issuing C rown grants top ersons claiming grants of land purch a sed p revious to t h e th irteenth day of

A pri l, 1 8 7 0, e ith er d irectly or d eriva t ive ly from th e C ro wn, sh a ll no t b e satisfi ed w i th th e evid ence of th e va lid ity o f th e cla im of any a p p licant for such

C rown g rant. suc h ch ief commiss ioner or o tfi cer a fo resa id is h ereb y auth orizeda nd emp owered to . and sh a ll, if required b y t h e a p p licant so t o d o , refer such’cla im, and a ll o th er ma tters in anyw ise rela t ing th ereto , to t h e reg istrar g eneralof t itles, wh o sh a ll examine into t h e c la im

,t i tle ,

o r ma tter so

'

referred , andp roceed th ere in in t h e manner h e re ina fter p rovid ed . (C . 1 8 8 8 , c . 66 , s.

M IHU I‘QL I

1 27 . C h inese no t to o r a c qui re Crow n [wi ld s— S uc h rccord or grant to‘

b e vo i d —i t. sh a ll No t b e law ful fo r a commiss ioner or a ny o th er p erson toissue a p reemp tion record of any C rown la nd , or se ll any port ion th ereof, toany Ch ine s e . no r g rant auth orit y und e r t h e sa id a ct to a uv C h ine se to recordo r d ivert any wa t e r from t h e na tura l ch anne l o f a uv stre ain

, lake or river inth is P rovinc e . A ny record o r g ra nt ma d e c ontra ry"to th e p rovisions of th iss ect ion sh a ll b e vo id a nd o f no e l

'

l'

e c t . (C . A . 1 8 8 8 , s .

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/join

3 1 8 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

P ORTI \ N D , Oman . [ v‘

rlu-

aury 7—8 , 19 7 7.R U S SEL IIA WK IN S .

New ll'

illru'

i l Il o tc l, ” Wi s h ing/Io n . D .

A ny reduct ion in t h e p re s e nt ta ri ff on ced ar sh ing les w i ll result in d isasterto t h e industry o f t h e P a c ific N o rthwest, and we w ish t o la y b efore you th isma tter, ea rnestly reque st ing th a t you o p p o se any ch ange b e ing made . The

industry now is in a b ad wa y due t o t h e b us ine ss d e p ress ion in a ll forestproducts. M o re th a n 50 p er cent o f th e sh ing le mi lls b e ing now c lo sed down

and th e commod i ty se lling during ent ire term of p re se nt tariff from 1 5 to 25

c ents p er th ousand b e low p rices p reva i ling prio r th ere to . To ch ang e p resenttariff sch edule w ill re sult in a dd it iona l lo ss and dep re ss io n to t h e industry . A s

a committee represent ing th e mi lls of th e C o lumb ia R ive r d istric t w e authorizey ou to p lace th is p ro test a ga inst any ch ange b efore b e p rop er commi t ees .

TI—IE HOWELL S IIIN C LE C o .

U N IVERS ITY L U M BER SH INGLE CO .

A LLEN SI—IINGLE CO .

Th e fol low ing extracts were submitted by Mr. Norris :

THE LA BOR COST OF PROD U CT IO N .

Th e select committee caused invest iga t ions t o b e mad e in 1 5 e a stern p a per

mi lls. 1 7 ea stern ground w ood mills, 3 western p a p e r mi lls . and severa l C anad ian mi lls , covering a p eriod of 1 3 y ea rs , th a t is from to 1 907 . Th e res ultof th a t inve st iga t ion is sta ted b y M r. M ann (p . 8 1 9 of Cong re s s iona l R ecord ) as

follows :“The da ily wag e p a id in th e C anad ian mi lls is a b out th e same a s in the

American mi lls .

” “ M any O f th e sk i lled w orkmen in t h e p a p er mi lls Of C anada

a re b rough t from th e U n ited Sta tes.

TOTA L LA BOR CO ST FROM RO U GH W OO D TO P A P ER.

[ P a g e 8 20 of C ongre ss iona l Re cord ]

1 5 eastern mi lls3 western mills1 8 U nited Sta tes mi lls _ _

St . R eg is mi llInterna t iona l P a p er C o .

’

s mi llsBoo th mi ll (Canad ian )If t h e inquiry into t h e cost of lab or in news print p a per b e a p p roach ed from

t h e b a sis of th e living w age we fi nd th a t C anada i s on th e same leve l as th eU n ited Sta t es , a s i s sh own b y test imony of D avid S . C ow le s (p . GeorgeC h ah oon , jr. (p . Ca rl R iordan (p . F . B . Ly nch , O f M inneapolis

(p . and J . It . B oo th (p .

Mr. J . T . Ca rey ( p . p resid ent of th e Interna t io na l Bro th erhood of

P a p er M akers , test ified th a t h is un ion controlled 5 or 6 mi lls in Canada . tha tth e wages in t h e L aurent id e mi ll, th e Be lgo - Canad ian mi ll, t h e W ind sor Locks

mi ll, were pract ica lly t h e same a s in th e U n ited S ta t es .

Th e U ni ted S ta te s consul a t Three R ive rs sa id t h e w a ge s w ere h igher in

C anada b ecause a ll t h e Skilled lab or came from th e U n ited Sta tes a nd induce

ments were offered th ose men to leave h ome and country .

Mr. C owles h ad d eclared tha t th e p ay w a s . if any th ing . h igh er in C anada

th an in th e U ni ted S ta te s , and th a t th is a p p lied to unskilled a s w e ll a s skilledla b or. Th e figure s w h ich I a ttach in comp a ra t ive ta b les o f p ay o f p o s itionsg ive th e rela t ive p a y for ea ch p o s it ion so far a s rec e ived and esta b lish ah~so lut ely and w ith out. qua lifica t ion th a t th e living w a ge in th e C anad ian mill ist h e same if no t mo re th an t h e a vera ge o f a ll th e A merican new s print mills.

Mr. C a rl R iord an , of Montrea l (p . summa rized th e ent ire Si tua t ion ina d isp a tch submitted to t h e committe e th a t c ommo n la b or wa s pa id an averageo f in M ic h ig a n and New Yo rk , in Ma ine . $2 in north ern O ntario,

to in South ern Ontario . and in Queb ec and New Brunsw ick.

RECIPROC ITY W ITH CANADA . 3 1 9

Th e amount s pa id b y various compan ies for labor on pa per ma ch ines, th a tis for ma ch ine tend ers , ba ck tender, th ird h and , and fourth h and , ma y besta ted a s fol lows :

Comparisons of p ay ofpositions .

Page . Hours .

Beater BeatEng . ers.

12 Bureau ofLab or (p . 19068 International (average )8 Clifi12 Gould12 Gilb ert8 St . R egis

8

12 J ohn Edwards fijijjjj12 C loquet .12 Flamb eau12 Conso lidated12 Niagara (W isconsin)12 W isconsin Paper Pulp Co12 Everett .

8 Laurentide .

8 Canada Paper12 Booth8 Berlin M ills

Comparisons of p ay of positions.

Page . Hours.

Lahor F ireGrinders. F inish ers.

ers. men.

Bureau of Lab or (p. 1906

ént

te

fmat ional (average )

li

GouldGil b ert .St . R egis .

PejepscotJ ohn Edwards

Flamb eau 1 75

Consolid atedN iagara (W isconsin)W isconsin Paper Pulp CoEverettLaurent ideCanada PaperCoBooth 1 . 70—2 . 50 1 . 50—1 . 75

Berlin M ills . . 1 . 80 1 . 64

Hourly rate,in cents.

BerlinSt . RegisLaurent ine (Canadi an)Cimada Paper Co . (Canad ian)ClifiInternationalBooth (Canadian)Everett .

Cloquet.ConsolidateFlamb eauWisconsinGouldGilb ert

320 RECIPROC ITY W ITH CA NAD A .

PA Y OF O RGA NIZED L A BOR lN THE STA TE OF N EW Y O RK PA PER IND U STRYLO WEST ON TH E LIST.

Ea rn ing s of org an ized wa g ew orkers (ma l es ) in N ew Y ork S ta te for firstqua rter. 19m}.(See pag e of N ew York S ta te Burea u o f La bor for

Bu i ld in gr and s toneworking , etc(r" S tonew o rking

( b ) Bu ild ing and pa ving tra des(c l Bu i ld ing and Street la bor

Tra nsporta t ion(a ) R a i lwa y s( b ) Naviga t ion(0 ) Teamn and ca b drivingFre igh t h and l ing

(6 ) Te legra ph sC loth ing and text il es 161 . 86

(a ) Garments(b ) Sh irts , col la rs , and laundry(c ) Ha ts , ca ps, and furs(d ) Boots , sh oes , and g loves(6 ) Text i l es

Meta ls , mach inery , and sh ipbu i ld ing(a ) Iron and stee l( b ) Meta l s , oth er th an iron and stee l(c ) Sh ipbu i ld ing

Printing , b inding , etc 251 . 58Composi torsElectroty pers and stereoty persMa il ersPh oto - engraversPressmen

Woodwork ing and furn itureFood and l iquors

(a ) Food products( b ) Beverages

Th ea ters and musicToba ccoResta urant and reta il trade

(a ) Hote ls and restaurantsR eta i l trade _

Public employmentSta t ionary eng inemenM isce l laneous

Gla ss and g la sswareO th er distinct tradesCement and c lay productsL ea th er and l ea th er g oodsBarberingPaper and paper goods

M R . H A STINGS’S SUGGESTION FOR CU RTA IL M EN T .

The full text of M r. Ha st ings’s letter to paper makers under dateof J uly 1 1

,1 9 10

,is as fo llows :

GENTLEM EN : T h e du l l season i s a ga in h ere , and th ere i s a ppa rently less demand for a ll grades o f paper, and yet a s a ma tter of fa ct th ere is a betterdemandth a n th ere h a s been for a number o f y ears a t th is sea son . A nnua l va cat ionsa re be ing taken ; b uy ers a re l i st l e s s . In sp ite o f t h e concerted a ct ion o f somebuy ers to reduce price s th roug h m isin forma t ion a s to qu ota tions made , andth roug h re fusa l to b uy , except th a t wh ich is ab so lut e lv needed , d el iveries inone grad e o f pa per, for instance, M a y sh owed more de l ivered th a n w a s manu»

fa c ture d,and y e t prices were d emora l ized in th a t pa rt icu lar gra d e. In another

grade o i paper ” 8 p e r cent wa s sh ipped of a ll produced . St i l l anoth er grade9 9 p er cen t sh ipp ed o f product ion , and in th a t particular d ivision one of the

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32 2 niscma oorrv W ITH C A N A D A .

In ansvve r to our ques tion . h e observed : O ur business i s, of course , a b igone

,even for A merica , a nd w e h a \ e o b ig ca pi ta l o f wh ich sl o ooo io IF . l th ink ,

wel l inves ted in C ana d a . W e cu t a b o ut 3 fee t o f lumber p er annum ,

and we make a la rg e quant i ty o f h ig h-

gra de su lph i t e wh ich w e ch i efly use for

our own consumpt ion , on th e b ag s ide , wh ich is, a s you know , a cons iderab lebusiness w i th us ; bu t we make no ‘ news , ’ a lth ough a t t imes th e ma k ing of‘ news ’

h a s been a t empting proposi t ion , ow ing to condi t ions w ith wh ich you

are probab ly fam i l iar. In my op in ion , ” sa id M r. i arra t t , tra de in A mericagenera l ly h a s improved very much and is improv ing , and , in ferent ia l ly , th ismeans a g ood th ing fo r Eng land . Th ere a re many rea sons why th is sh ou ld b eso , and ,

i t‘ experience counts for' any th ing ,

i t w i l l be so . A s rega rds prices forpa per, I cons ider th ey a re fa irly g ood , except ing perh a ps a s reg a rds wra ppings.

Th e makers o f book pa pers and‘news ’ papers a re in for a good t ime , and th ey

are very busy . A t a dinner I wa s a t la st n ig h t , remarked Mr. B a rra tt , I

sa id someth ing wh ich perh a ps wa s no t qu i te understood, bu t I am qu ite sureof my fa cts and fig ures , be ca use a ll th e pa per men of any pos it ion in t h e Sta testo - day do not take much for granted . Th ey pre fer to g et t h e a bso lu te rockbottom facts , and i t is now rea l ized th a t i t is not such a d iffi cu l t ma tter to getexa ct in forma t ion on ma tters o f supp ly and demand a s some peopl e once imagined and oth ers, if wh a t I h ea r is true , sti l l seem to th ink .

“I do no t th ink th a t ma kers in Grea t Brita in need h ave very grea t concern

is rega rds dama g ing compet i t ion from th e S ta tes, so fa r a s one can see ah ead.

Th e facts h ave been pub l ish ed regarding va rious strikes a nd lockouts , and onth e second day o f th e grea t ra i lw ay strike on th e Grand Trunk Booth ’

s M i l lsh ut down beca use th ey w ere forced to , and t h e resu l t is , o f course , so muchless outpu t . I wou ld l ike to re itera te wh a t I sa id a t th e comp l imenta ry dinnerto Mr. Pow ers , th a t to me i t wa s a most plea surab le surprise to meet “

such a

crowd of g ood fe l lows, a ll in th e very best of sp iri ts , and w ith such a sp lendidfeel ing o f g l i t lll- fe lltnl

’

SlJ ll) p rev '

i ilin l ll lO llg compet itors . It wa s a l so an exen

grea ter p lea sure to me to observe h ow k ind y our peop le were to B i l ly Powers.

and i t wa s a splend id test imony to y our bus iness men to observe w h a t k indnessth ey sh owed to an A merica n wh o h ad , of course , come over to do bus iness upaga inst th em in th e ir own markets , and I repea t wh a t I sa id a t t h e Powersd inner, th a t so far a s I am persona l ly concerned—and I am a lso speak ing for

my friends—w e apprecia te such a k ind ly fee l ing , and I h ope th ey w i l l not fa i lto let us be o f a ny a ssistance to th em sh ou ld th ey visi t our country a t any t ime ,e ith er ind iv idua l ly or co l lective ly .

Th es e l itt l e t ouch e s o f h uman k indness . sa id M r. Ba rra t t , make one'

s

h ea rt bea t fa ster, and wh en I wa s a t th e Powers d inner I fe l t th a t I wa s a t

i very extra ordina ry ga th ering , a n occa s ion w h en Bri t ish ers were g iv ing an

enth us ia st ic fa rew el l to an intruding A merican , wh o h ad come over h ere todo business in th e ir ma rkets , and , a s I h ave a lready sa id . I th ink th a t sucha ga th ering is we l l ca lcu la ted t o cu lt iva te. a sp iri t o f interna t iona l friendsh ipwh ich , in my judgment , m igh t w ith a dva nta ge b e extended to a ll conc erned .

Conversa t ion th en turned on to M r. Ba rra t t‘

s w e l l - known v iew s on t h e sp irito f coopera t ion among compet itors in t h e pa per trade .Mr. Ba rra t t h ad someth ing very interest ing to sa y on th i s po int , and h e

o bserve d : “ Th ree or four y e a rs a go some o f t h e best men in th e paper tradein t h e S t a te s a pprec ia ted t h e fa ct th a t a bette r know ledg e o f t h e cond it ionso f th e pa pe r bus iness in th e Sta t e s and in t h e countries do ing bus ines s w ith us

wa s rea l ly necessa ry , and an effort w a s made to co l l ect and comp i le moreexa c t in forma t ion . W e h a d many d ilii cult ie s a t first , a s th ose wh o were ina posi t ion to g ive us t h e in forma t ion were in ma ny ca ses a fra id to do so .

l i th em w a s a sp irit o f m i strus t , wh ich m i l ita ted aga inst t h e success o f theefforts of A rth ur t

‘l la s t ing s and h is a s so i

' ia i io n . However, I am p lea sed t0

know th a t a t t h e prese nt t ime th a t sp irit o f h o s t i liy and susp ic ion h a s verylarg ely pa ssed awa y , and we a re now in .l pos it ion to Ob ta in first- h and fa irlydeta i led informa t ion wh ich prevent s a lot Of re ckless compet it ion , and a lsoserves th e g enera l interes ts o f t h e trad e in va rious wa y s . W e h ave come torea l ize th a t th ere can b e no dang er in know ing exa ct fa c ts , and th is sp irit ofi i

-

ns lfuIni -s s and g oo d - f e llowsh ip h a s extended t o such an extent th a t we h avenow no d i tli e ul i y in t h e Sta tes in a pproa ch ing a compe t itor and a sk ing h imfa c ts reg a rd ing a transa ct ion wh ich ma y b e o f interest and importance to the

trade a s a w h ole . We h a ve. a l so found t ha t during periods o f depression th epossess ion o f prec ise in forma t ion has been most use fu l , and we h ave go t so

far a s to b e in th e pos it ion o f t h e strong er m ills a ss ist ing t h e wea ker onesa nd . wh en th e demand h a s b e en down . certa in concerns h ave red uced th e ir out

RECIPRO CITY W ITH CA N A D A . 323

pu t as low a s 3 5 p e r cent o f th e ir norma l product ion : a nd anoth er concern Iknow wa s w ork ing 011 “0 Pe r cent of th e ir outpu t “

and w e a re beg inn ing toget ins ide a lot o f gene ra l fa cts wh ich h elp to st r-e rw th en t h e trade a s a trade ,and some o f th e b ig underta k ing s , wh ich ‘

h o ld th e b a g ,

‘

a s we sa y in A merica ,

are h elping th e wea ker concerns wh en th ey are tempted to rush in and dobus iness on unsound l ines .

”

Mr. Barra tt gave th e writer some extra ord ina ry figures , sh ow ing h ow bothScandinavia and G erma ny h ave poured th ousands of tons o f ch em ica l pulpmto th e S ta tes a t ridicu lous prices, very cons iderab ly be low wh a t migh t becons idered a fa ir ma rke t figure , a nd certa inly a t a price wh ich no A mericanma ker cou ld enterta in . Mr. Barra t t added w ith emph a sis : “ Th ey are doing i t

to - day to some extent , but not t o th e extent o f a sh ort t ime ag o , and our countryis buy ing unblea ch ed su l p h i te , su lph a te , Kra f t pu lp , and a l itt l e soda pu lp, andth e organ iza t ion w e h a ve enab l es us t o se e a t a g la nce exa ct ly wh a t is beingdone . Mr. Ba rra t t ment ioned t h e sum o f $4 1 a s th e quotab le market price ofdomestic su lph ite to- da y . and h e expres sed t h e opin ion th a t th ere w a s now norea son wh y th e ch em ica l - pu lp ma rket sh ou ld not; be in a sa t is factory condi tion .

On th e subject of ground w ood Mr. Barra tt g ave us some very interestingin forma t ion . H e sa id th a t in t h e W e s te rn

'

stream s and N ew York Sta te t h ewa ter supp ly h ad fa l len off very rapid ly , and early in J u ly a number o f th emi l ls h ad to sh u t down ow ing to th e scarc i ty o f w a ter. Th e effect of th iswou ld be obv iou s . and h e d id no t see h ow i t w ou ld b e possib le to replen ish t h e

suppl ies o f wood pulp w h ich w ou ld be depleted , and h e w a s very anx ious to seewh a t w ou ld h a ppen a s th e resu l t . Y o u are qu ite aware , o f course , ” addedMr. Ba rra tt , th a t a s regards t h e S ta tes t h e demand for w ood pu lp far exceedsthe supply , and A merica i s buy ing nearly tons o f ground w ood p er

annum from Canada . I am my se l f bu i ld ing a new mech an ica l pu lp mi l l nea rThree R ivers , in Canada . It is not a very grea t m i l l , but i t w i l l produce 40tons o f a ir—dry mech an ica l pu lp in 24 h ours . Y ou may guess th a t I sh ou ld not

bu i ld th is m i l l un l ess I wa s fa irly sa t isfied in my own m ind th a t th ere is notmuch dang er of any restricti on be ing put on th e exporta t ion of ground woodfrom Canada a t present . ”Mr. Barra t t th en re ferred to anoth er e lement wh ich ma y h a ve an importa nt

influence on w ood - pu lp manu fa cture , a nd h e ment ioned th e fac t th a t in some o fth e underta k ing s h e contro l led i t p a id th em much better to genera te e lectric ityfrom th e wa ter pow er and supply l i gh t and current ra th er th a n turn th e powerto wood - pu lp product ion .

“ W e ma ke a bou t mono tons o f pa per a y ea r. ch iefly h igh grade su lph itepapers for our bag s, Mr. Ba rra t t added , and w ent on to g ive some veryinterest ing compa risons on A merican me th ods in regard to th e b ag trade a s

compa red w ith th e meth ods in Eng la nd . He observed : In th e b ag tradewe work on a carloa d a s a un i t , and our bag s are a ll standardized. I a dm i tqu i te frankly th a t y our prices and y our meth ods o f dea l ing in Eng land a re nota ttractive to us . Your prices are too low for us, and th e quanti t ies ordered are

too sma l l . A bou t 80 p er cent o f our bus iness is done in orders o f carload s,and in th e S ta tes, wh en we dea l w ith a carloa d, t h e sh ipper l oa ds th e car and

th e rece iver un loa ds, and th is mea ns th a t we g e t a very favora b le ra te .

If we send less th an a ca rloa d th e ra te i s considera b ly h igh er, and we do

not encoura ge th a t bus iness. Th e ra i lroad compan ies h ave a m in imum car

load , wh ich represents a bou t bags p er car genera l ly , and I am plea sedto say th a t th e genera l out l ook in regard to our b ag departments i s veryh ea lthy , and tra de is improving .

”

Mr. Barra t t incidenta l ly ment ioned th e fa ct th a t th e consumpt ion of pa perin th e S ta tes seemed to be increasing a t ab out th e proport ion o f 10 p er centper annum, and

“ news ”

a t th e proport ion of 8 p er cent . Persona l ly h e h ad

h ad no d i fficult ies w i th h i s w orkpeop le , and wa s p lea sed to say tha t h e go t onvery we l l w i th th em in a g enera l way . H is own m i lls were worked on th emixed princ iple , no difference be ing made between un i on and nonun ion men ,and h e rema rked : I h ave some Eng l ishmen—very good men , too~—under me .I h ave one man named M a rri ott , wh o came a long qu ite on h is own a ccountone d ay . He formerly worked for Messrs. B ibby Baron , and h e h as stay edwi th me .

On th e subject of Wages, Mr. Ba rra tt sa id th a t th e wages of a h ea d ma ch ineman varied from to for e igh t h ours , and h e added : Th e cost o fliving and th e amount o f wa ges pa id h ave been undoub ted ly go ing up o f la te ,

not on ly in A merica bu t in oth er parts o f th e world .

” Mr. Ba rra tt gave h i sviews on th is subject, and sa id th a t in A merica th ere seemed to be a sp iri t of

324 R JCL'

IPRO C IT Y w [TI-I C A N A D A .

w iunion sense ” 1110 1 11: th e a s a wh o le , and in h is mi l l s th ey d id

not obje c t to o w l-t ime o r work ing t l' e w e e k ends a t c erta in periods w h en i t

mea nt find ing emp loyment , sa y . for t h e p a p e r mi lls wh en t h e y were in dangero f runn ingr sca rce o f pu lp . M r. Ba rra t t , in conc lu s ion , spoke very generouslyo f Brit ish ine t limls , and th e k ind ly peop l e h e h a d me t on th is side , and he

a lso sa id th a t t h e po l icy of Grea t Brita in invest ing Eng l ish money in Canadawa s a mos t sa g a c ious one and w a s prod uc-ln w onderfu l res u lts .

“ Can ada ,

h e added , i s g o ing ah e a d b y l ea ps and bounds , and I ima g ine th a t few peoplein t h is ro untry h ave any id e a to wh a t extent th a t ma rve lous prog ress is be ingmade in th a t grea t country o f i l l im ita b le pos s ib i l it ies .

STA TEMENT OF Z. W . WHITEHEAD , OF WILMINGTON, N . 0.

Mr. IVH ITEHEA D . Mr. Cha irman and g en tleme n o f the c omm it tee,

I fee l tha t the gentlemen who have pre ceded me h ave s o thoroughlycovered th is quest ion tha t it is h ard ly necessary for me t o add muchto what they have a lready sa id . I am here

,however

,representing

over saw and planing m il ls and certa in ly more thanemp loyees in the South A tlant ic and Gul f Sta tes. I am commissioned here to register their most empha t ic protest aga inst the rat ifi

ca t ion o f th is proposed re cipro city trea ty w ith C anada or tha t of anyother measure wh ich carries w ith it any repea l or reduct ion of thepresent duty on lumber. I know of no sec tion of the country , Mr.

Cha irman and gentlemen , tha t would b e more disastrously affectedby such a reciproca l measure as h as been advanced than th e sect iono f the country tha t I represent here more espe c iall y . In t he South ,during th e past few years, w e have en joyed a ra ther phenomenaldeve lopment in th e lumber industry . Tha t deve lopment of the lumb er industry h as contributed a w onderful part to th e deve lopment ofthe a l l ied and other industries throughout the

,

Sou th,until to - day the

deve lopmen t of the South is the pride and boast of every man w ithinour borders, and I can truthfully say , and I c ou ld bring forth thefi gures to show , if i t was necesary to show to you,

tha t no other industry in all the whole sou thern country h as contributed more to thisgenera l deve lopmen t than our lumber industry . “’

e have extendedth e right hand of fe l lowsh ip to our brethren in other parts of thecountry , show ing and te lling them what we h ave in the w ay of stumpage , and they have come into our midst and invested their money.

A grea t dea l of the timber lands in the S ou th h as been so ld andbought. up during th e past de cade . They w ere bought and so ld uponth e basis of tha t me a sure of protect ion and tha t gu aranty of goodfa ith on the part of the U nited Sta tes , tha t the duty of vhf -p e r

thousand aga inst the impo rta t ion of Canadian lumber vouchsa fed to them .

I am keenly a l ive tha t the fa ct,Mr. Ch a irman

,tha t I ha il from a

sect i on of the country where prote ct ion ists are not. very numerous ;b ut I want to say to you, gentl emen , tha t our sympa thies and ourdemands—or ra ther our requests—w ith re ference t o this duty onCanad i an lumber are not based upon any pol it ica l the ories of anypoli t i ca l vagari es or any moon ch asing , but they a re based upon ourexperi ences tha t we endured and wen t through w ith durin fr tha tperi od known as the period of the existence of th e i lson - Gbrni antari fi

'

bi l l , when C anada sold lumber a s far south and sh ipped herbox boards as far south as the c ity of Ba l tim o re , wh ich is reco e nizedas the northern line of the sou thern territory . By reason Sf ourge ograph i c a l lo ca t i on w e na tura lly find in the S o uth A t l ant ic andGul f States our ch i ef markets for the lumber in tha t territory

in

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326 RECIPROCITY W ITH CANAD A .

Mr. RA N DELL . You think if we h ad h ad a different b il l from the

Wilson - Gorman bil l then i t m igh t have been better ?Mr. VVI-H TEHEA D . We l lMr . RA N D ELL. Did it ever occur to you that Cleve land would not

Sign tha t bi l l be cause it was no t,h e sa id

, a Democra tic measure ? A nd

yet the Republ icans c la im tha t tha t is a grea t blo t on the Democra tic re cord , when th e Republ icans in th e Sena te made that bill ?Did you ever th ink abou t tha t ?Mr . WH ITEHEA D . I do no t know tha t I ever though t abou t tha t

,

bu t if they h ad made it any worse than tha t , I am glad that nobodysigned it .Mr. RA N D ELL . They made 600 changes in i t , and Cleve l and would

not sign it be cause it was no longer a Democra t ic measure and therewere only fi ve Democra t ic Sena tors wh o voted for those changes

,but

the Republ icans took advantage of it and ca l led i t a Democrat icmeasure . I am asking if you remember those things ?Mr. lVH ITEHEA D . I do no t remember those th ings.

Mr,RA N DELL . Then do you charge aga inst the Democra tic Party

wha t the Republ icans did in a Democra t ic adm inistra t ion ?

Mr. FORD N EY. The Republ icans were no t in contro l . Th e P opu~

l ists were in control in the Sena te and dictated wha t should go inthat bil l .M r . RA N D ELL . It w as the Republ icans who voted for th e changes.

Mr. FORD NEY . No,indeed .

Mr. RA N D ELL . lVell,I w ithdraw th e quest ion as y ou have no

chance to answer i t anyway , and it seems tha t th e comm it tee are

divided on th e proposition .

Mr. M CCA LL . Have yo u any th ing further to say abou t th is bi l l ?Mr. ll-

T

I—i rra i—IEA D . Mr. Cha irman,I w ant to add this much to that .

You understand tha t the lumber business is of such tremendous proport ions, such ram ifica t ions

,that i t involves a vast amount of money

to conduc t it . I suppose it is sa fe to sa y th a t the lumber people are

th e largest borrowers o f money of any c lass of peop le in the South ,or possibly are l arger borrowers of money than any other c lass ofpeop le in th e country . To - day , w ith th e p ossib ili ty of th e duty beingremoved on lumber, you are a ll we l l aware of th e fa ct that. the bankshave a t the ir heads some of the ir w isest and ablest men , whomust necessari ly keep the ir fingers on th e pulse of trade , andmust necessarily look ahead . If th is duty should b e repea led , andthe banks, know ing tha t there are these large investments in standingtimber, large investments in m il ls and equipment , based upon thisone idea , or ra ther a t least in part icular upon th is one idea

,that we

would be sh ie lded to some extent , a t least , from fre e lumber fromCanada where they make lumber infinite ly cheaper than we can makei t in this country—a s I know . becaus e I ha v e. been over the re andseen —is it not reasonably understood tha t i t w il l b e on ly a quest ionof time when the banks wi l l necessa ri ly b e compelled to w ithdrawfrom the lumbe r peop le tha t mea sure of credit whi ch they have ac

corded them during all these y ears of deve lopmen t ; and‘

could youp i c ture in yo ur mind a gre at e r degree of demora l iza t ion and disasterthan tha t wh ich w ould overtake not on ly the peop le of th e SouthA tlant i c a nd Gul f S ta te s, bu t th e people of e ve ry othe r part of th ero nntry where money is borrowed ? Has i t ever appea led to vouwh e re, tha t. disaster would stop ?

i Et‘

i P k O C i i v -l C A N A D A . 32 7

Mr. Formxnr . The banks w o uld w ithdraw the ir support if thepri ces were l ow ered on lumb er“ ind un less a reduct ion of the dutyw il l low er th e pric e of lumber. it is not a w ise proposit ion to pu t in tothe law ?

Mr. “'

H i risnn xn. Th a t is righ t . You are correct. on tha t .

M r . Fonnmzr . A nd the consumer is the man that the friends of thisme asure are a im ing to a id ?Mr. \VH 1TEHEA D . Y es ; I th ink so .

Mr. FORD N EY . Then , if i t does no t l ow er th e price of lumber, we

would have noth i ng to fear in regard to th e banks ; bu t if it doeslower the price of l umber, th e lumbermen would fear the restrict ionspu t upon them in th e money marke t ?

“Ii -IITEHEA D . Na tura l ly , sir.

Mr. M t'CA LL . Is there any thing more

-i r .

-\ D . Now,Mr. Cha irman I can say formy sect ion of the

coun try ,and I can spe ak for th e South in th a t part icular.

th at the reis not a cotton m il l , there is not a bank

,there is not a manu facturing

enterprise of any chara cter, I do no t care wha t you take , bu t wha tsome lumberman—but wha t more often more than one lumbermanhas an interest in . is a prime fa ctor in ; there is not a trust company ,and I know of nothing , absol utely . in th e whole of th e SouthernStates , but wha t the lumberman of to - day is contribut ing h is fullshare to it , and . i f measured b y th e standards o f others . is contrib uting double h is share to it s p rog ress and deve lopment .

Mr. FORD N EY . From a financ ia l standpoint you speak advisedlybecause y ou are a banker ?Mr. “

'

H ITEHEA D . I am conne cted w ith a bank,and I do speak ad

visedly . I know when th is troubl e commences these banks .

ma tter o f ne cessit y . w i l l h ave t o w ithdra w the ir credit . Now . Mr.

Cha irman and gen t lemen , it w a s contended here before and duringth e discussion of the Payne - A ldrich tariff bill tha t if vou made a.

reduct ion of 25 p er cent , or p er cent , or even , some one assumed tosay . if y ou h ad cut. th e duty 50 per cent on lumber, it would makeno difference . You reduced the duty on lumber 375 p er cent . Now

,

wha t is th e concrete result ? I re fer y ou to th e large ly increasedre ce ipts of Canadian lumber in New York C ity in Boston . andM a ine ports

,and in th e lake ports . “

l

ith wha t resu lt ? Is there a

consumer be fore y ou t o—day . or h a s a consumer appeared before youduring any o f these hearings . or do y ou hea r of any cr nsuni er who

savs he h as got ten lumber any cheaper ?Mr. FORD N EY . None a t a ll.

Mr. II'

H ITEHEA D . Now,wha t is th e resul t ? The result is simply

th is : The Canadian manufa c turer h a s su ppl anted to that extent theA merican manu fa cturer ; the Canadian emp lo y ee in Canada h as

supplanted the A merican employee to th e same extent . In the meantime Canadian cap ita l , Canadian indu stries, a re boost ed a t th e ex

pense o f A merican industries . A nd I do not be l ieve that any memb er of th is “fi rms and Means Comm ittee would intent i onally do anyth ing or comniit th is Government to any pol ic y tha t bui ldup and profit th e industries of Can ada or any o ther country u p n i

th e ruins of the industries of the U nited Sta tes .

Now . Mr. Cha irman,I am frank to te ll you that I

‘kno w of no

ugl ier fea ture t o th is ent ire proposition . carry ing'

w ith i t th e repea lof the duty on lumber. than tha t to wh i ch I have Just refe rred

32 8 RECIPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

gen t lemen who have pre ceded me have covered the field so thoroughlytha t I hardly think it is necessary fo r me to dw e l l upon any o therfea ture

,nor do I care to emphasize any o ther fea ture qu i te so much

a s tha t to which I have re ferred .

It ha s been we l l sa id th a t w e do no t l ive unto ourse lves . A l thoughi t may b e charged tha t the re is a va st di ffe re nce be tween the interests of th e So uth and the interests o f the “fest o r be tw een the interests of the Eas t and th e intere s t s o f th e “

'

e s t,y e t our in terests are

s o interlocked one w ith the oth e r, ei ther d ire ct ly o r indire ct ly , tha tyou can no t legisla te aga inst one industry in one part o f th e countryw ithou t doing some measure of damage to the a ll ied industries invarious other parts of th e country ; and when you th ink possibly thatyou may b e legisla t ing in beha l f o f one se c tion of th e country and inb eh a lf of one c lass of peop le aga inst ano ther, it h a s, been usua lly a

w e l l - known ract tha t y ou w ere undermining some part of t he fabricof this grea t Government and do ing violence when y ou l it t le dreamedo f it .

I am here t o say tha t from o ur standpo int , we reg ard this proposedrec iproc ity trea ty as p la c ing a burden upon the produc ts of theforests, the w a ters

,and farm s

. Those arti cle s tha t a re p la ced on thefree list a re the art i cles produced b y the farmer wh ich be come dut iable just as as soon as they leave the farmer, and are re sp on s ib le moreIO I

‘ the h igh prices of l iving than any other ag ency tha t is knMr. Cha irman

:as I sa id

,the gent lemen wh o have preceded me have

covered th is fie ld so thorough ly tha t I hardly th ink it is ne cessaryfo rme to refer to more than tha t fea ture wh ich I ha ve jus t t a lked on :and yet it is one tha t is fraugh t w i th more. danger. and is we l l calcula t ed to do more harm to ourse lves , and bring grea ter di s a ster toth is country than any other, and y o u can only po int to th e past as a

justifica t ion for wha t I have sa id,w i thou t ant ic ipa t ing any thing else .

and in V iew of wha t th e other gen tlemen have told you . I think wehave given amp le argumen ts to convince you tha t there is nothingto b e ga ined for th e U n ited S ta tes as a who le b y giving C anada an

opportunity to monopol ize our markets and rob A merican labor andA merican manufa cturers of tha t wh ich w e p ay our taxe s t o have andto enj oy , and th e privilege of carry ing on . I thank y o u.

Mr. HIN ES . Mr. Cha irman , I w an t th e priv i lege of j us t answeringone quest ion . I th ink i t is very importan t .

M r . M CCA LL . I th ink you h ad better le t the s e other gent lemenaddress the committee , Mr. Hines.

M r . HIN ES . Th is w il l take only a sec ond .

Mr . WH ITEHEA D . Mr. Cha irman , I yield a part of my t ime to Mr .Hines.

Mr. HINES . You asked th e quest ion,Mr . Rande ll , wh y our p eo

p le in th e M iddle “'

e st and in th e S t a tes of Texas andif the duty w as taken off of lumber. c o uld not import l umber fromCanada and have it de livered in tha t terri to ry cheaper than thev are

gett i ng it a t present . I do not think the y qu ite understand yourquest ion . In th e first pl ace , th e gre a t S ta te of Texa s is one of thelargest manufa c turing lumber S ta tes in the U nited S ta tes. Thea rmag e pri ce of lumbe r all over the S ta t e of Te xa s t o - dav is less thanthe average price of lumber in C anada . abso l ut e ly .

Next , the cost of transporta t ion o f lumber to any point in O klahoma or Texas from Canada would b e proh ibit iv e aga inst sh ipp ing

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330 REe i PBo c i'

rv W I'

I‘

II C A N A D A .

M r . GrA IN rLs‘. It carries a $9 freigh t ra te to A berdeen ?

Mr . IVILSO N . To A berdeen=S . D ak.

Mr. Gx i N ics . To A berdeen . S . D ak. ?

Mr.

‘vVILsoN . Y es.

Mr . GA INES . What is the re ta il price ?M r . IVIL SON . The retai l price of tha t board in A berdeen , S . D ak.,

is $32 .

M r. FORDNEY. $8 , or 25 p er cen t o f th e tota l sa le price , is addedthere ?Mr. IVILSON . Y es.

Mr. FORDNEY . Thirty - three and one - ha l f p er cent of th is cost , then,is added

,approxima tely ?

Mr . “’ILSON . A pproxima tely ,"y es ; th e usua l way of figuri ng li ne

ya rd prices is to add 10 per cent for Opera t ion and 25 p er. cent profit .Mr . FORDNEY . Mr . Wilson , wha t does $15 a thousand g ive the

manufa cturer in profit , at Spokane , about ?WILSON . On Western , p ine boards ?

Mr. FORDNEY . Y es ; I mean the board you ment ioned ?Mr. W ILSON . It costs h im aboutMr . FORD NEY.

Mr . WILSON . Y es.

M r. FORD N EY. SO tha t h is profit w ith an investment of is

where the retailer in A berdeen , S . D ak.

,pu ts in $24 and takes

ou t $32 ?Mr . WILSON . Y es that is about it .Mr . HILL . A re you conduct ing a re ta il business ?Mr . IVILSON . I am not condu ct ing reta il y ards at the present t ime .

We sold our re tai l yards in J uly .

Mr . HILL . Did vou add 25 p er cen t and 10 p er cent to vour manufacturer

’

s prices ?Mr . W ILSON . No

, sir.

HILL . Vt did vou do any different ly ?Mr. IVILSON . It was impossible for us to do any differently from

tha t , where we were located . IVe we re lo ca ted in the citv ofSpokane .

Mr . HILL. Why w as it not possib le in Spokane ?Mr. WILSON . There are a good many yards. and the competit ion

forced us down .

Mr. HILL. Then , wherever there is more than one ya rd , or whereever there are severa l yards . th is sta temen t is not c orrec t .Mr. WILSON . No ; tha t is not true , M r . Hi l l . In certain sections

th ere seems to b e a better understanding among reta ilers.

Mr. HILL . Y es.

Mr. WIL SOITT.

.

A nd they get a very good profi t on reta il ing lumb er. In the Ci t i es or open markets lumber is sold very cheap .

Mr . HILL . Is there any understanding among manufa cturers th atthey W i ll not sell to reta ilers unless th ev ho ld up the pri ce ?Mr . WILSON . No

, sir.

Mr . HILL . Y ou are sure of that ?Mr. WILSON . Y es. sir.

Mr. HILL . How far does yo ur sureness extend ?Mr. WILSON . A s far as knowled g e .

7"r. HILL . No restric tion wha tever ?Mr. WILSON . No restriction at all.

REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A . 331

M r. FORD NEY. Y ou never heard of such a th ingMr . WILSON . No

, sir.

M r . HILL . I have .

Mr. WILSON . A nd I hape been in th e’

lumb er business all my l ife .

M r. FORD NEY . I have been in the lumber business since I was a

b oy , and I never heard of i t until before this committee .

Mr . GA IN ES . Is i t not true tha t the reta il price gene ra lly carriesless profit in the neighborhood where the artic le is produced in largeqqgntit

g

ies, because people there know how cheap ly th e manufa cturer

se S i t .

Mr. “HLSON . I think tha t is true .

Mr. GA INES . SO tha t the re ta i l condit ions exist ing in Spokane andthose existing in A berde en , S . D .

,would b e in tha t respec t quite

differen t ?Mr. “

T

ILSON . I th ink so .

Mr . GA IN ES . Now , th e manu fa cturer of an art icle gets all h e can

for it , does h e not ?Mr. WILSON . Y es ; invariab ly .

Mr. GA IN ES . The reta il de a ler gets all h e can for it when h e sellsit,of course ?M r . W ILSON . Y es, Sir.

Mr. GA IN ES . Is it no t a fa ct tha t th e reta il price genera l ly throughout the coun try to the fina l reta i l consumer

,th e price to the ult ima te

consumer, or th e reta il price,does not vary , as a rule

,when there

may b e sl igh t varia t ions in the manufac ture of th e products ? Doesit not happen w ith lumbe r tha t very frequent ly the manu fa cturers’

price goes down $3 , and even $4 ; and in the M iddle West . far aw ayfrom th e produ ct ion of any l umber. from any sawm il ls . th e reta ilprice rema ins pre cise ly the same ?Mr. WILSON . Tha t would depend upon th e district . Now

,in

some p la ces where there is very severe compe t ition , why , i t mightchange ; bu t it usua l ly does not . It usua l ly rema ins about th e same .

Mr. GA IN ES . A s a genera l rule there is not much compet it ion intowns be tween the lumber y ards and the Various coa l y ards there , isthere ?M r. WILSON . A s a usua l th ing .

Mr. GA IN ES . For instance , th e price of lumber in th is c ity ofWash ington bears very l it t le re lat ion to th e price of lumber a t the

lumber mil ls in “'

est V irginia . Tha t is true . By wha t gentleman’s

agreemen t or otherw ise they do it , I do not know . bu t I do knowtha t th e combina tions wh ich pu t up th e ,

price are not those wh i chare ca l led trusts, genera l ly , or are sub ject to th e j uri sd i ct i on of theFedera l Gove rnment . They are the sma l l loca l comb ina t i ons in th e

communit ies, pa tronized b y the re ta il purchasers.

Mr.WILSON . It is just the same as the fa rmers holdi ng the i r hogs

for the same price , or their horses.

Mr.GA IN ES . Y es ; bu t a mi ll ion farmers can not hold the i r hogs

l ike three lumber ya rds, for instance , can hold lumber ; ne i ther can

lumbermen do wha t three reta il dea lers can do .

Mr. W ILSON . NO , sir.

Mr.FORD NEY. Is there not such a th i ng known in the IVest through

the trade as l ine yards ?Mr. WILSON . Y es.

332 REC IP Ito c i'

rr W ITH CA N A D A .

Mr. FORD N EY . They are in a combina t ion , are they no t ? It is

understood tha t w ay , is i t not ?Mr. WILSO N . I t is so understood

,tha t they are in comb i na ti on .

Mr. GA IN ES . “’

hat are l ine yards ?Mr. FORD N EY. Fo r instance

,we h ad a gen tleman here a year and

a ha lf a g o named B rooks , from M inneapol is , I th ink .

M r . “'

IIS ON . M r . Rogers.

Mr. FORD N EY . Mr. Rogers ?Mr . W ILSON . Y es.

Mr . FORD N EY. A nd upon invest iga tion it was show n tha t li e wasinterested in 99 yards in North Dako ta and tha t h e absolu te ly control led th e prices O f lumber a ll over North Dakota . Mr. Rogersfixed the price to the consumer of lumber in North Dakota .

Mr . GA INES . Is h e th e gent leman who cla imed tha t $2 a thousandwas too much on lumber and enhanced th e price of lumber to the consumer

,and it turned out tha t h e h ad rece ived h is lumber $2 a thou

sand cheaper and h ad never modified h is price a t all ?

Mr. FORD N EY . Y es : and he h ad purchased a large trac t of timberland in Canada at 25 cents a thousand and was se l ling bonds on thebasis of $4 a. thousand . [Laughter. ]M r . WILSON . Eigh ty - two p er cent of the yards in North and South

Dakota are in the hands o f the l ine yard concerns . A bout seven liney ard concerns, w ith headquarters in St . P aul and M inne apol i s control th e reta il business in lumber in North and South Dakota .

Mr. FORD N EY . That was th e point I w anted to bring ou t .Mr. W ILSON . Y es.

Mr. FORD N EY . The manufa cturers are in no w ay connected w ithany of those line yards ?Mr. WILSON . To my know ledge , they are not .M r. FORD N EY . D O the proprietors of those line y ards have the

whole territory of the U nited Sta tes to buy from ?

Mr. WILSON . Y es.

Mr. FORD NEY. W ithout compe tit ion ; w i thout any combination ?Mr. WILSON . Y es

,sir. Mr. Rogers test ified t o tha t be fore this

comm ittee a yea r and a ha lf ago . He test ified tha t it w ould not makeany difference to th e consumer h ow mu ch they reduced the tariffon lumber. it w ould no t make any difference to th e buyer.

t

Mr. FORD NEY. We h ad a man here, a secre t ary of a forest associ

a Ion .

Mr . HILL . Y es,Sir ; I remember h im very we l l—Mr. Knappen .

M r. FORD N EY. A nd he adm itted tha t h e w as the onlv one tha t belonged to tha t assoc ia t ion . It was a b ig assoc ia ti on .

however.[Laughter . ]

I

Mr. H'

i Lso x . Y es . sir.

Mr. HIL L . A re. these M innea p ol is and S t . Paul p eo p le w h o controlthese yards any of them ni ami fac ture rs . or are thev wholesa le dea lers ?Mr. WILSON . They are manufa cturers . some Of them

,in a small

way . There are some in Canada . Th e Rog ers Lumber C O .operates

a mi l l in Canada .

Mr . HILL .

_

Y es ; bu t yo u sa id th a t these l ine vards were c ontrolledb v se ven o r e i ght firms in M inneapol is and St .

'

l’aul.

Mr . WILSON . Y es.

Mr. HILL . What I wanted t o know was whether anv o f them are

manu fa cturers ?

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3 2 2 1 6 , S ix t y- fi rs t C ongress , t hi rd s es si on ]

A BILL

TO PROMOTE RECIPRO CA L TRA D E RELA TIO NS WITH THE D OMINIONOF CANA D A ,

AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES .

Be i t enacted by the Sena te and House of Rep resen ta ti ves of the U nited S ta tes of Americain Congress assembled, Tha t th ere sh a ll be levied , collected , and paid upon th e

.

articlesh ereina fter enumera ted , th e growth ,

product,or manu facture of th e

.

D om i ni on ofCanada

,wh en imported th erefrom into th e Un ited Stat 38 or any

.

of i ts ossessions

(except th e Ph i lippine Islands and th e islands of Guam and Tu tu i la ) , in i cu of theduties now levied

,collected

,and pa id , th e following duties, name ly :

Fresh meats : Beef , vea l , mu tton , lamb ,pork

,and all oth er fresh or refrigera ted

eats excepting game , one and one - fourth cents p er pound .

Bacon or hams ,not in t ins or jars , one and one - fourth cents p er pound .

Mea ts of all kinds dried,smoked

,salted , in brine ,

or prepared or preserved in anymanner

,not oth erwi se h erein provided for, one and one - fourth cents p er pound .

Canned meats and canned poultry ,twenty p er centum ad va lorem.

Extract of meat , fluid or not,twenty p er centum ad va lorem .

Lard and compounds thereof . co ttolene and cotton stearine,and anima l stearine

one and one - fourth cents p er pound .

Tallow , forty cents p er one h undred po unds .

Egg yolk ,egg a lbumen

,and blood a lbumen

, seven and one - h a lf p er centum adva lorem .

Fish (except Sh e ll fi sh ) b y wh atever name known , packed in Oil,in t in boxes or

cans , includ ing the weigh t Of th e package : (a ) weigh ing over twenty ouncesand not over th irty - six ounces ea ch

,fi ve cents p er package ; (b ) wh en weigh ing over

twelve ounces and not 0 \ er twenty ounces each , four cents p er package : (c) whenweigh ing twelve ounces each or less , two cents p er package : (d ) wh en weigh ing thirtySix ounces ea ch or more , or wh en packed in oil

,in bottles

, jars , or kegs ,th irty per

centum ad va lorem .

Toma toes and o th er vegetables , including corn , in cans or oth er a ir- tigh t packages,and inc lud ing th e we igh t of th e package , one and one—fourth cents p er pound .

Wheat flour and semolina ,and rye flour

,fifty cen ts p er b arrel of one hundred and

n inety - six pounds .

Oa tmea l and rol led oats ,inc lud ing th e weigh t of paper covering . fi ftv cents p er

one h undred pound s .

Corn mea l , twelve and one—h a lf cents p er one hundred pounds .

Barlev ma lt,forty - five cents p er one hundred pounds .

Barley , pot , earled ,or pa tent

,one - ha lf cent p er pound .

Buckwh ea t. our or mea l,one - h a lf cent p er pound .

S p lit peas , dried , seven and one - ha lf cents p e r bush e l of six t y pounds .

Prepared cerea l foods , not. oth erw ise prov ided forh ere in , seventeen and one - half perc entum ad va lorem .

Bran , midd lings , and oth er offa ls Of gra in used fo r anima l food ,twe lve and one - half

cents p er one hundred pound s .

Macaroni and verm icell i,one c ent. p er pound .

Biscu its , wafers , and cakes , wh en swee tened with sugar, honev ,molasses

,or oth er

ma te rial, twenty - fi ve p er centum ad valorem .

B i scu i ts , wafers , cakes , and oth er baked artic les , composed in wh ole or in part ofeggs or any k i nd of flour o rmeal , wh en comb ined wi th chocola te

,nu ts

,frui ts ,

or confec ti onery ; a lso cand ied peel , cand ied popcorn ,

candied nuts ,candied frui ts, sugar

candy ,and con fec tionery of all kinds , thirty - t im and one - ha lf p er centum ad va lorem .

Maple sugar and maple s irup , one cen t p er ound .

Pi ckles , inc lud ing p ickled nu ts , sauc es o f a 1 kinds, and fi sh paste or sauce ,

th irty‘

two and one- half per centum ad va lorem .

Ch erry Ju i ce. and prune ju ice , or prune wine , and other frui t ju ices and frui t sirup ,nona lc ohol ic , seventeen and one - ha lf p e r c e n tum ad va lorem .

334

RECIPROCITY W ITH CA N A D A . 335

Minera l wa ters and im ita tions of natura l m inerand one—ha lf per centum ad va lorem.

Essen tia l O i ls , seven and one - ha lf p e r centum a d va lorem ."1 C

r(J rap evmes, gooseberry ,

i asp b e i r) and ('

urrant bushes , seventeen and one - halfcen tum ad va lorem .

Farm wagons and fin i sh ed parts th ereof, 1

valorem .

Plows . tooth and d i sk b arrows . h arvesters , reapers , agricultura l dri lls and planters ,mowe rs , h orserakes , culti vators ; th rash i ng mach i nes , i nc lud i ng W i nds tackers , baggers ,weighers , and se lf - feeders th erefor and fin ished parts th ereof imported for repa ir of th eforegoing , fifteen p er centum ad va lorem .

Porta b le e ngines w ith boilers , in comb ina tion ,h orsepowers and trac tion eng ines

for farm purposes ; h a y load ers , potato d iggers , fodder or fe ed cu tters , gra in crush ers ,fann ing mi lls , h ay tedders , farm or fi eld rollers,manure sp readers , s e eders

,and

windmi lls , and finish ed parts th ereo f imported for repa ir of th e foregoing ,except

sha fting , twenty p er centum ad va lorem .

Grindstones of sandstone , not moun t ed , fin ish ed or not , five cents p er one h undredpounds .

Freestone , gran i te , sandstone , l imestone , and all oth er monumenta l or bu i ldingstone , except marb le , breccia ,

and onyx , unmanu factured or not dressed, h ewn , or

pol i sh ed , twelve and one - h a lf p er centum ad va lorem .

Roofing slates , fi fty - fi ve cents p er one hundred sq i are fee t .

Vi trified paving b locks , not ornamented or decora ted in anv manner,and pavingblocks of stone , seventeen and one - h a lf p er centum ad va lorem .

Ox ide of iron , as a color, twenty - two and one - ha lf p er centum ad va lorem .

A sbestos, furth er manu factured th an ground ; manufac tures of asbestos or articlesof wh ich a sb estos is th e component ma teria l of ch ief value , including woven fabrics ,wh olly or in ch ief value of asbestos , tw enty - two and one - h a lf p er centum ad va lorem .

Printing ink , seventeen and one - ha lf p er centum ad va lorem .

Cutlery , p la ted or not—pocketknives,penknives

,scissors and sh ears, knives and

h

arksIfor h ouseh old purposes, and tab le steels, twenty - seven and one - h alf p er centum

a va orem .

Bells and gongs , brass corners and rules for printers,twenty - seven and one - h alf p er

centum ad va lorem .

Basins,urina ls

,and oth er p lumb ing fixtures for bathrooms and lava tories ; ba th tubs,

sinks, and laundry tubs of earth enware , stone , cement , or clay ,or of oth er ma terial

,

th irty - two and one—h a lf p er centum ad va lorem .

Brass band instruments, twenty - two and one - h a l f p er centum ad va lorem .

Clocks, watch es , time recorders, c lock and wa tch keys, clock cases , and clock movements

,twenty - seven and one—h a lf per centum ad va lorem .

Printers’

wooden cases and cab i nets for h olding type , twenty - seven and one - hal fp er centum ad va lorem .

Wood flour,twenty - two and one - h a lf p er centum ad va lorem .

Canoes and smal l b oats of wood,not power boa ts

,twenty - two and one—half p er

centum ad va lorem .

Feathers , crude , not dressed , colored , or oth erwise manufactured , twelve and oneha lf p er centum ad va lorem .

A ntiseptic surgica l dressings , such as absorbent cotton , cotton wool , lint , lamb’

s

wool, tow ,

jute, gauzes, and oakum ,

prepared for use as surgica l dressings , plain or

medicated ; surgica l trusses, pessaries , and suspensory bandages of all kinds, seventeen and one - h a lf p er centum ad va lorem .

Plate glass , not beveled , in sh eets or panes exceed ing seven square feet each and

not exceed ing twenty - fi ve square feet each ,twenty - fi ve p er centum ad va lorem .

Motor veh icles,oth er th an for ra i lways and tramways , and automob iles and parts

thereof,not including rubber tires , th irty p er centum ad valorem .

Iron or steel digesters for th e manufa cture of wood pulp , twenty—seven and one—ha lfp er centum ad va lorem .

Musica l instrument cases , fancy cases or boxes , portfolios, sa tch els , reti cules , cardcases, purses , pocketbooks , fly books

.

for artificia l flies , all th e foregoing composedwholly or in ch ief value of leath er, th irty p er centum ad va lorem .

A luminum in crude form ,five cents p er pound .

A lum inum in p la tes , sh eets , bars , and rods, eigh t cents p er pound .

Laths , ten cents p er one th ousand pieces .

Shingles , th irty cents p er th ousand .

Sawed b oards ,p lanks , dea ls , and oth er lumber, planed or fini sh ed on one Slde ,

fifty cents p er th ousand feet , b oard measure ; p laned or fin i sh ed on one s ide and

a lwaters , in bottles orjugs , seventeen

p er

wentv- two and one - ha lf per centum ad

336 RECIPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

tongued and grooved ,o r p laned or finish e d o n two s id es . se vent y—five cents p er thou

sand fee t .board measure ,

pla nned o r finish ed on three s i des ,o r p laned and fin i sh ed

on two s ide s and tongued and grooved .o ne do l lar and tw elve a nd one - h a l f cents p er

th ousand feet . b oard me asu re .p laned and finish ed on four s ides . one dol lar and fi fty

cen ts p er t li omand fee t . hoard mea sure ; and in es t ima t ing board measure under th issch edule no ded uc t ion sh a ll be made on h o a rd n e asui e on account o fp lan i ng ,

tongumg ,and groov ing .

I ron ore ,includ ing ni anganiferous iron ore , and th e dross o r re s i duum from burnt

p y rite s ,ten cents p er ton : I

’ro rir/cd , Tha t in le \ y ing and collec ti ng th e duty on iron

ore no deduc t ion sha l l he made from th e we ig h t o f t he o re o n ac c o unt of moisture wh ichmay b e ch emica lly or ph ysically c omb ine d

_

1 herewi th .

Coa l slack o r culm of all k inds,such as W i l l pass through a h al f - i nch screen . fifteen

cents p er ton .

P TO I' ll

tlt (I, Tha t th e du t ies a IM V O enumerated sha l l take e ffec t wh enever th e Presi dentof th e United S tates sha ll have sa t i s fac to ry e v idence and shal l make proclamation thaton the art icle s hereinafter enumera ted , th e growth . product . or manu facture o f th eUni ted States , or any of its possessions (except th e Ph ilippine I s lands and th e islandsof Guam and Tutuila ) , wh en imported th erefrom into th e D omin io n o f C anada , dutiesnot in excess o f th e follow ing are imposed , namely :Fresh mea ts : Beef , vea l , mutton , lamb , pork ,

and all oth er fresh or refri gera tedmea ts excepting game , one and one—fourth cent s p er pound .

Bacon and hams , not in tins or jars , one and one - fourth cents p er pound .

Meats of all kinds , dried , smoked , sa lted , in brine , or prepared or preserved in anymanner, not oth erwise h erein provided for, one and one—fourth cents p er pound .

Canned meats and canned poultry ,twenty p er centum ad va lorem .

Extract of meat , fluid or not,twenty p er centum ad va lorem .

Lard,and compounds th ereof , cottolene and cotton stearin , and anima l stearin , one

and one - fourth cents p er pound .

Ta llow,forty cents p er one h undred pounds .

Egg yolk ,egg a lbumen

,and blood a lbumen

,seven and one - ha lf p er centum ad

valorem .

Fish (except sh el lfi sh ) , b y whatevername known , pa cked in o il, in t in boxes orcans,

inc lud ing th e weigh t of th e package : (a ) wh en weigh ing over twenty ounces and notover th irty - six ounces each

,five cents p er package ; (b ) wh en weigh ing over twe lve

ounces and not over twenty ounces each ,four cents p er package ; (c ) wh en weighing

twelve ounces each or less, two cents p er package ; (d ) wh en weigh ing th irty - sixounces each ormore

,orwh en packed in oi l

,in bottles

,jars

, or kegs , th irty p ercentumad va lorem .

Tomatoes and oth er vegetables , inc luding corn , in cans or oth er air- tigh t packages,and including th e weigh t of th e package , one and one - fourth cents p er pound .

Wh eat flour and semolina ; and rye flour,fifty cents p er barrel of one h undred and

ninety - six pounds .

Oatmea l and rolled oats,including th e weigh t of paper covering ,

fifty cents p erone h undred pounds .

Corn meal,twelve and one - half cents p er one h undred pounds .

Barley malt , forty - fi ve cents p er one h undred pounds .

Barley ,pot

,pearled

,or patent

,one - ha lf cent p er pound .

Buckwh eat flour or meal,one - ha lf cent p er pound .

Split peas,dried

,seven and one - half cents p er bush el of sixty pounds .

Prepared cerea l foods, not oth erwise provided for h erein , seventeen and one—hal f percentum ad valorem .

Bran , midd lings , and oth er offals of grain use d for anima l food , twelve and one - halfcents p er one h undred pounds .

Macaron i and vermicelli,one cent p er pound .

Biscuits , wafers , and cakes , wh en swee tened w ith sugar, h onev,molas ses , or other

ma teria l , twenty - fi ve p er centum ad valorem .

Biscui ts , wafers , cakes , and oth er baked art ic les,com osed in wh ole or in part of

eggs or any kind of flour o r mea l , wh en comb ined wi th c oco la te ,nuts

,fruits

,or con

fec tionery ; also candied peel , candied popcorn , cand ied nu ts ,candied frui ts, sugar

candy ,and confectioner

yo f all kinds

,th irt y - two and one - ha lf p er centum ad valorem .

Maple. sugar and map e sirup , one cent p er pound .

Pickles ,includ ing pi ckled nu ts ; sauces of all kinds , and fi sh paste or sauce , thirty

two and one - ha lf p er centum ad valorem .

Ch erryjui c e. and prune juic e , or prune wine , and oth er frui t juices , and frui t sirup ,

nonalco oli c , seventeen and one - ha lf p er centum ad va lorem .

Mi neral wa te rs and im i ta tions of na tura l minera l wa ters,in bottles or jugs, seventeen and one - ha lf p er centum ad va lorem .

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338 REC IPROC ITY W ITH CA N A D A .

Fruits in a ir- tigh t c a ns or oth er air- tigh t p ackages , th e we igh t of th e cans or other

p ackages to b e inc luded in th e we igh t for duty ,two cents p er p ound .

Peanuts , she lled , one cent p er p ound .

Peanuts , unshe lled , one- h alf cent p er p ound .

Coal,b ituminous , round and run of mine , includ ing b ituminous c oal such as will

no t. p ass through a three -

quarter inch screen ,forty - fi ve cents p er ton .

That the articles mentioned in th e following paragraph s , th e growth , p roduct , ormanufac ture of th e D ominion of Canada , wh en imp orted th erefrom into th e U nitedStates orany of i ts p ossessions (excep t th e Ph ilip p ine Island s and the islands ofGuamand Tutuila ) , sha ll b e exemp t from duty ,

name ly :Live animals: Cattle , h orses and mules , swine , sh eep ,

lamb s , and a ll oth er liveanimals .

Poultry ,dead or alive .

Wh eat , rye , oats , b arley , and b uckwh ea t , dried p eas and b eans , edib le .

Corn ,swee t corn ,

ormaize .

Hay ,straw ,

and cowp ease .

Fresh vegetab les : Potatoe s , swee t po tatoes , yams , turnip s , onions, cab b ages , and alloth ervegetab les in th e ir natural state .

Fresh fruits : A pp les , p ears , p each es, grap es, b erries , and all oth er edib le frui ts inth e ir natural state , excep t lemons , oranges, limes, grap e frui t , sh addocks , pomelos,and p ineapp les .

D ried frui ts : A p p les , p each es , p ears , and apricots, dried ,desicca ted ,

or evaporated .

D airy products : Butter, ch eese , and fresh milk and cream: P rovided , Th at cansactually used in th e transp ortation of milk or cream may b e p assed b ack and forthb etween th e two countries fre e of duty ,

under such regula tions as th e respectiveGovernments may prescrib e .

Eggs of b arnyard fowl, in th e sh ell.

Honey .

Cottonseed oil .

Seeds : Flaxseed or linseed , co ttonseed , and oth er oil se eds ; grass seed includintimo th y and clover seed ; garden ,

field ,and oth er seed no t h erein o th erwi se provi de

for, wh en in p ackages we igh ing over one p ound each (not including flower seeds) .Fish of all kinds , fresh ,

frozen , packed in ice ,salted , or p reserved in any form,

excep t sardines and o th er fi sh preserved in oil ; and sh ellfish of all kinds,includ ing

oysters , lob sters , and clams in any state , fresh or packed ,and coverings of the fore

oi ngSega] , h erring , wh ale , and oth er fi sh oil, including sod oi1° P rovided, Tha t fi sh oil

,

wh ale oil, seal oil, and fi sh of all ki nds, b eing th e produc t of fish eries carried on b yth e fish ermen of th e U ni ted Sta tes , sh all b e admi tted into Canada as th e product ofth e U ni ted States , and ,

simi larly , th a t fi sh oil, whale oil, seal oil, and fi sh of all kinds,b eing th e roduc t of fish eries carried on b y th e fish ermen of Canada

,sh all b e admi tted

intS

o

lth s ni ted Sta tes as th e p roduct of Canada .

a t .Mineral waters , na tural, not in b ottles orju s .

Timb er, h ewn , sided or squared oth erwi se si an b y sawing , and round timb er usedfor spars or in b ui lding wh arves .

Sa

ged b oards , p lanks, deals , and oth er lumb er, not furth er manufac tured than

sawe

Paving p osts, railroad ties , and telephone , trolley , electric - ligh t , and telegraphp oles of cedar or oth erwoods .

Wooden staves of all kinds , no t furth ermanufac tured than listed or jointed . andstave b olts .

Picke ts and pa lings .

Plaster rock, or gyp sum, crude , not ground .

Mica , unmanufac tured orrough trimmed only ,and mica

, ground or b olted .

Feldsp ar, crude , owdered or ground .

A sb estos , not furhermanufactured than ground .

Fluorsp ar, crude , not ground .

Glycerine , crude , not p urified .

Talc , ground , b olted , or p rec ip itated , naturally or artific ially , no t for toile t use .

Sulp hate of soda , or salt cake , and soda ash .

Extrac ts of hemlock b ark.

Carb on elec trodes .

Brass in b ars and rods , in coil or o therwise , not less than six fee t in length , or b rassin stri p s, sheets , or p lates , not poli sh ed , p lanish ed , or coated .

Cream sep ara tors of every descrip tion , and p arts th ereof imported for repair of theforegomg .

REC IPRO C ITY W ITH CA N A D A . 339

Rolled iron or steel sh ee ts , or p lates , numb er fourteen gauge or th inner, galvanizedor coa ted with zinc, t in ,

or otherme ta l, or not .

Cruc ib le cast - steel wire , valued at not less than six c ents p er p ound .

Galvanized iron or steel wire , curved or not,numb ers nine , twelve , and th irteenW i re gauge .

Ty ecast ing and typ ese tting mach ines and parts th ereof, adap ted for use in printino o ces .

Eiaib ed fenc ing wire of iron or steel, galvanized or not .

0 e .

Rolled round Wire rods in th e co il, of iron or steel

,not over three - e igh ths of an inchin d iame t er

, and not smaller than numb er six wire gauge .

Pulp of wood mech anically ground ; p ulp of wood , ch emical, b leach ed , or unb leach ed ; news print p ap er, and oth er p ap er, and p ap er b oard , manufactured frommechani cal wood p ulp or from chemical wood pulp , or of wh ich such pulp is thecomponent ma terial of ch ief value , colored in th e pulp , or not colored

, and valuedat no t more than four c ents p er pound ,

no t includ ing printed or decorated wall p ap er:P rovided, That such p ap er and b oard

,valued a t four cents p er p ound or less, and

wood pulp , b e ing th e products of Canada, wh en imp orted th erefrom d irectly into

the U nited S ta t es , shall b e admitted free of duty , on th e condition precedent thatno exp ort dut y , exp ort license fee , or o th er exp ort charge of any kind wh atsoever(wh eth er in th e form of add itional charge or license fee or o th erwise ) , or any prohi b it ion or res triction in any way of th e exp ortation (wh e th er b y law ,

order,regu

lation , contractual relation ,or o th erwi se , d irectly or indire ctly ) , shall h ave b e en

imp osed up on such p ap er, b oard ,orwood pulp ,

or th e wood used in th e manufactureof such p ap er, b oard , or wood pulp , or th e wood pulp used in th e manufacture ofsuch p ap er or b oard .

P rovided,That th e articles ab ove enumerated

, th e growth , product , ormanufactureof th e D omini on of Canad a , shall b e exemp t from duty wh en th e President of th eU ni ted States sh all h ave satisfactory evidence and shall make p roclamation that thefollowing article s , th e grow th , product , ormanufacture of th e U ni ted States or any ofits p ossessions (excep t th e Ph ilip p ine Islands and th e islands of Guam and Tutuila) ,are admi tted into th e D ominion of Canada free of duty , namely :Live animals : Cattle ,

h orses and mules , swine ,sh eep ,

lamb s,and all other live

animals .

Poultry , dead or alive .

Wh ea t , ry e , oats , b arley , and b uckwh eat ; dried p eas and b eans , edib le .

Corn,swee t corn , ormai ze (excep t into Canada for d istillation) .

Hay ,straw

, and cow p e as .

0

Fresh vege tab les : Pota toes , swee t p otatoes , yams , turnip s , oni ons, cab b ages , andall o th er vege tab les in th e ir na tural state .

Fresh frui ts : A p p les , p ears , p each es, grap es, b em es , and all oth er ed i b le frui ts i ntheir natural state .

D ried frui ts : A p p les , p each es , p ears , and apri cots, dri ed ,desi cca ted

,or eva orated .

D airy p roduc ts : Butter, ch eese , and fresh mi lk and cream: P rovtded,T a t cans

actually used in th e tra-nSp ortation of milk or cream may b e passed b ack and forthb e tween th e two countries free of duty , und er such regulati ons as th e resp ectiveGovernments may prescri b e .

Eggs of b arnyard fowl in th e sh ell.

Honey .

Cotton- seed oil .

Seeds : Flaxseed or linseed,cotton seed

,and oth er 011 seeds ;

.grass seed ,

includi ngtimothy and clover seed ; garden ,

field ,and oth er seed not h ere inoth erwi se provided

for, wh en in p ackages weighing over one p ound each (not includ i ng flower seeds) .Fish of all kinds , fresh , frozen , packed in ice , salted or preserved i n any form,

excep t sardines and o th er fi sh preserved in oil; and sh e llfish of all ki nds,including

oysters, lob sters , and clams in any state,fresh or packed ,

and coveri ngs of th efore o in

Sega ]

,herring , wh ale ,

and oth er fi sh oil,including sod oil : P rovided, That fi sh

whale oil, seal o il, and fi sh of all kinds , b eing th e product of fish eri es carri ed on b ythe fish ermen of th e U nited States, shall b e admitted into Canada as th e roduct of

the U ni ted States , and similarly tha t fi sh oil,wh ale oil

,seal 011, and fi sh 0 all kinds,

b eing th e product of fish eries carried on b y th e fish ermen of Canada , shall b e admi ttedinto th e U nited Sta tes as th e product of Canada .

Salt .Mineral waters , na tural, not in b ottles or Jugs .

Timb er, h ewn ,sided or squared oth erwi se than b y sawing , and round timb er used

for spars or in b uilding wharves .

34 0 REC IP ROC ITY W ITH CA NA D A .

Sawed b oards , p lanks , deals, andi oth er lumb er, no t furth er manufactured th ansawed .

Paving p osts , ra ilroad ties,and teleph one , trolley , electric ligh t , and telegraph

p oles of cedar or o th erwoods .

Wooden staves of all kinds, no t further manufactured th an listed or Jointed ,and

stave b olts .

Picke ts and palings .

Plaster rock or gyp sum, crude ,not ground .

Mica ,unmanufactured or rough trimmed only ,

and mica , ground or b olted .

Feldspar, crude , p owdered , or ground .

A sb estos not furth ermanufac tured than ground .

Fluorspar, crude , no t ground .

Glycerine , crude , no t purified .

Talc , ground , b olted or precip i tated , naturally or artificially , no t for toi le t use .

Sulpha te of soda , or salt cake , and soda ash .

Extracts of h emlock b ark.

Carb on electrodes .

Brass in b ars and rods , in coil or oth erwise , not less th an six fee t in length , or b rass

in strips, sh eets , or p la tes , no t polish ed , p lanish ed , or coa ted .

fCream separa tors of every descrip tion , and p arts th ereof imported for repair of the

ore omRi lle iron or steel sh ee ts or p lates, numb er fourteen gauge or th inner, galvani zed

or coa ted wi th zinc ,tin

,or oth erme tal, or no t .

Crucib le cast- stee l'

wi re,valued a t no t less than six cents p er pound .

Galvani zed iron or steel wire,curved or no t , numb ers nine , twe lve , and th irteen

wire gauge .

Tygiecasting and typ ese tting mach ines and p arts th ereof, adap ted for use in print

i n o ces .

arb ed fencing wire of iron or steel, galvani zed or not .

Coke .

Rolled round wire rods in th e coil, of iron or steel, no t over three - e igh th s of an inchin diame ter, and no t smaller th an numb er six wire auge .

Pulp of wood mechanically ground ; pulp 0 wood , ch emi cal,b leach ed or

unb leach ed ; news print p a er and oth er p ap er, and p ap er b oard ,manufac tured from

mech anical wood pulp or rom ch emical wood pulp ,or of wh ich such pulp is the

comp onent ma terial of ch ief value , colored in th e pulp or no t colored,and valued at

not more th an four cents p er p ound , no t including printed or decora ted wall p ap er.

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IND EX.

P age .

National Grange (reciproci ty ) 2374 42

Na tional Lumb erManufacturers’A ssocia tion , prc s ident of

8 5—102Ne lson ,

Th eo . G. , Ind ianap olis, Ind . (reciproci ty ) .150

New Y ork Pennsylvania Co .

,New Y ork City (p ap er and b oard ) 293

Norris,J oh n (wood pul and p ap er) 208—209 , 24 2—265 , 318

O’Brien

,P . J .

, Gloucester,Mass (fi sh ) 63

O ccidental Fish C c .,Seattle , Wash 219

O liver, S e natorGeorge T . , Wash ington ,D . (le tter to ) 8 2

Oregon Wash ington Lumb er Manufac turers’

A ssociation Portland ,Oreg .

(lumb er)Paine

,A ugustus G.

,New Y ork C i t y (pa er and b oard )

Patch ,Isaac ,

mayorGloucester, Mass . sh )Peop les , (

‘

ap t . Ge orge H .,Gloucester, Mass . (fi sh )

Port Blakeley Mill Co .,Port Blake ley ,

Wash . (lumb er)R idder

,Herman .

R ip ley ,Edwin

,Seattle

,Wash .

Rob erts,Charles J Bradford ,

Mass . (fi sh ) . 54

Ro thsch ild ,D .

,Grain D avenp ort , Iowa (b arley and b arley malt) 135

Se itz,D on C . (wood ulp and p ap er) 265—271

Senate and House of epresentat ives of the State ofWash ing ton (rec iprocity ) . 274

Sensenb renner, F . J .

,Neenah

,Wis . (wood p ulp and p ap er) . 17 1—174

Sh ipowners’A ssociation of th e Pac ific Coast , San Francisco ,

Cal. (lumb er) 333

Skinner,D . E .

,Seattle

,Wash . (lumb e r)

"7 20, 292—307Smi th , C ap t . Sylvanus , Glouceste r Mass . (fi sh ) 55—58Sp encer, L . G. , Columb us , Oh io 235

Stanwood a Gloucester, Mas s . (fi sh ) 7 7

Stanwood , J ohn J Gloucester, Mass . (fi sh ) 7 7

Star,Sunday , Wash ington, D . C . 8 4

St op ford , Gen .

” William,Beverly ,

Mass . (fi sh ) 53

Th omas, Cap t . WilliamH . , Gloucester, Mass (fi sh ) 16—28Treat , Leonard A . , Boston ,

Mass . (fi sh ) 66—7 3 , 7 8U niversity Lumb er Sh in le Co . , Portland ,

Oreg . 318

Wallenb eck,E . T . , Tro

Welp , J os .

,Wab ash a , Minn . (b arley )

Wentworth ,L . J Portland , Oreg . (rec ip roci

Western Codfi sh Co .

,Seattle , Wash . (fi sh )

Wh iteh ead , Z . W .

,Wilmington , N . C . (lumb er) 324—329

Wilson ,A . J Sp okane , Wash . 329—333

Wonson , Charles F . , Gloucester, Mass . (fi sh ) 30, 58—64 , 75 . 76, 77