ltegislatioe ~sssmhlQ. - NSW Government

Questions and Answers. [27 Kov., 1035.) Questions and A nsu:ers. 1725

Sinclair, C. A. Stc>cns, B. S. B. Thomas, N. Tonking, A. U. Waddell; J. W. \Yade, B. M.

Walker, H. .B. Yeo, A. \V.

Teller.~, Budd, A. E. Henry, A. S.

NOES.

Arthur, J. G. Lang, J. T. Baddeley, J. M. Lazzarini; C. C. Booth, G. McGirr, James Burke, Frank McKell, W. J. Cahill, J. J. O'Sullivan, M. Cameron, R. Quirk, J. Clyne, D. Stanley, F. DaYidson, hl. A. Sweeney, J. T. Dadcs, \V. Tonge, A. Gorman, R. D. Tully, J. M. Hawkins, F. H. Tellers, Kell)·, C. A. l\fatthews, C. H. Knight, H. Shannon, T. J.

Question so resol,ed· in the affirmatin•. 0riginal question resol'l'ed in the affir

mative. \ ote agreed to. Progress reported.

House adjourned-at ll.~G p.m.

ltegislatioe ~sssmhlQ.

Wednesday, 27 Not·ember, 1935~

Questions without Notice-Estimates, 193G·3GAllocation of Time for Di~cussion.

Mr. SPEAKER took the chair. The opening Prayer was read.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE.

ASID,ORD TOBACCO GROWERS: REPORT.

1Ir. SHANNON: Is the Minister for· Labour and Indushy aware of the statement made in the House ~-esterday by the hon. member for Barwon, that a police officer at Ashford; named McMahon, denies having signed certain papers laid on the table by the J\riinister for Labour· and Indus~ try in June, 1934, relating. to the tobacco growers in tl1e Ashford district~ Is the Minister further· aware that the han. member· for· Barwon·. said· the signa .. ture was a, fraudulent one? Will' the Minister have an investigation made into thc•matter; and•report to the House

whether his statement or that of the bon. member for Barwon ·is correct~ In view of the fnct that the Minister laid the papers ou the table, and that they were ordered to be printed by, the Printing Committee, does he not thinN: that this is the proper course to pursue~

Mr. DUNNINGHAI\1: I was not~prcsent in the House yesterday afternoon, nnd I do nut know just what statement the hon. member refers to. If the hou. member for Barwon has said· the police officer denies that the· signature on the official documents is his, I shall haTe inquiries made and, if necessary, I shall have the whole ()f the papers laid· on the table for the perusal of hon. members, and with the object of haTing them recorded in Hansa1·d.

Jo'OOD RELIEP DEPOTS: DEFALCATIONS.

Dr. WEBB: Does the Premier know that within the last few months there have been defalcations by the departmental officers at the food relief depots to the extent of over £5,000; to my h.-nowledge? Does he realise that this money has been obtained from the wages of the workers by way of emergency taxation, under the provisions of the special income tax~ Will he inform the House whether the robberies are due to the inefficiency of the officers, lack of superYision, or to the understaffing of the depots? If he cannot do that, will he assure hon. members that he will take steps to prevent this kind of thing in the future, thereby protecting the pockets of the suffering taxpayers?

Mr. STEVENS: The frauds were located by the department some three months ago. As the result of a special review of the facts by officers of the Department of Audit and the Department of the Treasury, I am satisfied that these were complete frauds, which could be discovered only after continuous investigation, such as obtains in the department. The papers disclose that those who are responsible for the frauds han• ·been punished,. and, 1 do· not fear :my repetition of them. Where· any weakness has been disclosed there has

1726 Questions and Ansu:ers. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answers.

been a tightening-up. It was a very clever fraud, and I am afraid that even under the best system, a clever rogue will get away with it, but only for a short time. In this case, the rogue::; were tracked down very early in their career, and the losses were reduced to a minimum.

BROKEN HILL HOSPITAL.

Mr. HORSINGTON: In . connection with the reply of the Minister for Health to my question last week when he said he was not prepared to support the proposal for the construction of a new hospital at Broken Hill, can he say that his opposition to this proposal was on the grounds of expense~ If so, is the Minister aware that when the present children's wards, nurses' quarters and other impro>ements were constructed, the mining companies agreed to bear a considerable portion of the costs, and that it is understood they have a fund in Melbourne to assist the Broken Hill Hospital, but it is only available for new constructional work~ In view of this, will the :Minister reconsider his decision against building a new hospital in Broken Hill until his department has consulted the Broken Hill mining companies, to see if they are prepared to continue to contribute to new works at the Broken Hill HospitaU If the mining companies are prepared to assist, will the Minister, instead of patching up the old buildings, consider the construction of a new up-to-date hospital, which is so badly needed~ ~r. FITZSIMONS: I am not awaro3

what the mining companies ar~ prepared to do.

Mr. HoRSL'<C'IOC\': Is not the :Minister aware of what they have done in the past?

1-fr. FITZSBlONS: I know that they have gi>en monetary assistance to the Broken Hill Hospital. The Hospitals Commission has examined plans, prepared by the architect, at the request of the Broken Hill Hospital Board, but having in view the possible revenue of the hospital, its members are of opinion that to embark on the huge expense of

a new hospital will not be warranted. At the same time the Hospitals Commission is not unmindful of the fact that the accommodation at Broken Hill Hospital is quite inadequate to cope with the demands on it. When the hon. member sees the Government plans for the reconstruction of the hospital, he will probably find that the new plans and extensive alterations to existing· buildings will meet the wishes of the Hospital Board and the needs of the district, and also the wishes of the mining companies, if they should care to subscribe.

PRICE OF BREAD: YEAST SUPPLIES.

Mr. NESS: Is the Premier aware that the Pressed Yeast Company of Waterloo has refused to supply yeast to certain bakers on the ground that they were selling bread over the counter at 4~d. a loaf? As this appears to be a restraint of trade, will he take this matter up, with a view to compelling this company to supply yeast to bakers as usual, particularly as there is no debt existing between the suppliers and the consumer, in this instance, and no satisfactory reason can be shown why the supply of yeast should be stopped~

Mr. STEVENS: I do not know the facts with regard to the Pressed Yeast Company, but I do know that some of the members of the Four Millers' Association, some of the :flour millers, and some suppliers of yeast have refused to supply certain master bakers with either flour or yeast. I had an officer specially set apart to deal with the matter, with a view to seeing whether, in every cas3, supplies of flour and yeast could not be secured for these bakers. Until the last few days, that officer has been able to succeed. Apparently, quite recently, concerted action has been taken, not only :by the flour millers, but also by ·bakers and members of the Baking Union Employees, with a view to putting before the public the claims of those bakers who charged a minimum price fixed by the Master Bakers' Association, and, as I said in the House yesterday, the set of conditions now existing, demand investigation by the Government. In the :first

Qucs~ions and Answc1·s. [2i Nov., lfJ)5.] Questions and Answers. 1727

instance, I have had the papers referred to the Crown Law Department in order that the ·Government may be advised concerning its powers in the matter. 'When that report is received the Government will deal with it as a matter of policy.

OIL FRO)! SHALE AND COAL.

Mr. KNIGHT: Has .the Premier noticed reports in the press to the effect that Japan is successfully exploiting its oil shale deposits which yield from 10 to 1:3 gallons of oil to the ton of shale? Is the Premier aware that Scotland is also successfully treating shale and obtaining a yield of from ;35 to 40 gallons of oil to the ton of shale, while Australia, which has rich deposits capable of yielding from 100 to 130 gallons to the ton of shale, and in some t:ascs even more, :has taken no de£nitc ac-tion in this regard? The oil requirements of Australia are approximately 350,000,000 gallons per annum, and will increase as the years pass. Is the Premier further aware that the CommJSSlOJ~cr for Railways proposes to imtal Diesel engines on our rail"·ay system, an innovation that will bring further unemployment in its wake? In these circumstances will the Premier state why no action has been taken by Australian GoYernments to follow the example of most other countries, and produce oil from shale and coal?

~Ir. MAIR: When the Premier is answering that question, will he bear in mind the urgent need to develop the extraction of oil from shale, and take into consideration the fact that if om ;;ea-borne traffic were interfered with this country might be brought to it'> knees within a few weeks, because of the exhaustion of its supplies of oil?

Mr. STEVENS: In reply to both hon. members, I may say that the Governnwn t is fully alive to the need for developing the oil resources of Australic,. For some time past the Commonwealth :md State Governments have collaborated with that end in view, and alre::1dy certain action is being taken by the Commonwealth Government as a safeguard in the event of an emergency

arising such as that hinted at by the hon. member for Albury. There. seems to be no doubt that the future of tho oil industry of Australia is more in the direction of the hydrogenation process of obtaining· oil from coal than the extraction of oil from sha1te. That is the opinion definitely conveyed to the Government by experts who have been continuously engaged in research work, The GoVf~rnment has had a representative in London making inquiries into this matter, and it proposes to send its representative to that centre again for the same purpose. Only on }.{onday of this week I received information from London to the effect that there is every chance of the extraction of oil from Australian coal becoming a commercial proposition within a comparatively short period.

~ir. BADDELEY: It ie already definitely established that it is a commercial proposition in Great Britain!

Mr. STEVENS: tfnfortunately, that is not so. If that had been de£nitely established, the persons with whom the Government has been in treaty would long since have exploited the commercial possibilities by establishing the industry here. It is noteworthy that all tha investigations th~,t have taken -place in the last few years seem to be culminating in the discovery of method~; that will avoid all the early errors and initial heavy costs. Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited, and other large interests that are exploiting these deposits and have the sympathy and practical aid of our Governments, appear to have arrived at the conclusion that, presently, they will be able to commereialise our

. coal deposits. When that point is reached, the ·Government's organisation will be ready.

Mr. KNIGHT: Between the sugar and the oil combines Australia is well strangled!

Mr. STEVENS: Any hon. member who says that Australia is well strangled is not only unpatriotic, but also does not know his job. The development of these deposits has proceeded along definite lines within the last two years, but prior to that no serious attention has _l>een

1728 Questions and Answers. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answers.

paid to this development. This job i.~ one that demands a great deal of study ::md im-estigation. It is receiving that study· and investigation and, as I ha1·e told the House, within a comparati,·ely short period it is believed that the attempts made to deYelop this industry will succeed.

ART UXION AND LOTTERY TICKETS FOR XEW ZEALAND.

:llr; LAZZARINI: Will the Colonial SecretaTy inform me when he intends to ans,Yer Question No. 2 on the business paper, which Telates to art union and lottery tickets for X ew Zealand, and which has been on the business paper almost since the commencement of the session?

Captain CHAFFEY: It is a fact that that question has been on the business paper for some time, but it was necessary to make inquiries fTom different sources to obtain the information sought by the bon. membeT. That infoTmation has <'ome to hand, and only yesteTday an answeT was prepaTed. No doubt it will appeaT on the business paper to-morrow.

SYDXEY TECIIXICAL COLLEGE: CLASSES.

Mr. FRA.);K BURKE: Is the )finil'ier for Education aware that there is a woolclassing class at the :Sydney Technical College, but that there is no class in respect of cotton, nor for the manipulation of machinery and looms, OT any of the finer points, such as the spinning of colours, the judging of different qualities of cotton, and threading and weaving? Will the Minister give consideration to this matter with a view .to having classes of such an essential character instituted at the college?

~Ir. DRUMMOND: The Commission which inquired into the question o£ technical education recommended for the consideration of the Governments of Victoria and New South Wales that there should be co-operative action between them, for the purpose of concentrating tanning and the leather industry technical work in New South Wales, and the weaving side in Victoria. Even if

that recommendation were gina eJect, I believe that the time has arriYcd when certain of these classes should be instituted in :Kew South Wales, and I am having a full inquiry made with a view to estimating the cost. of the initial establishment of classes in connection with this important industry.

SOUTH CAXTERBURY SCHOOL.

llfr. DRU~lliOND: On the 13th instant the hon. member for Canterbury asked me if I were aware that during the past . seven years, in which I had ·been Minister for Education, not one penny had been spent on schools in the Canterbury electorate. I informed the hon. member that I would look into the matter, and I ha,·e foun<l that the poRition is as follows: From the 18th October, 192·7, to the 31st October, 1930, when the hon. member represented the electorate. £48,132 was spent on buildings and sites, excluding contracts under £50, and repair works under £20, which have not been taken into consideration in the totaL During the period of my first term in th3 present l\finistry, from )fay, 1932, to l\Iay, 1935, the sum of £2S8 was spent on painting and repair works to schools in the electorate, excluding amounts under £20. In· the second and present term of the GoYernment, since May, 1935, an expenditure of £800 has been authorised on repair and renovation work, notabb·: Earl wood, £599; Belmore South, £171.

l\Ir. ToxGE: That is not in the Oanterbu;·y electorate!

Mr. DRUMl\10:;\T]): It is in the hon. member's electorate.

:llr. ToxGE: I say that it is not! Mr. DRU:Ml\IOND: A consideration

of these factors will indicate, as I informed the hon. member on a previous occasion, that the money made available to the department is ·being exP.ended on a strictly impartial basis in accordance with the relative requirements of the various districts. lt is obvious that, if a large expenditure takes place at one period to meet outstanding needs, there must, in the nature of things, be a

Questions and Answers. [27 Nov., 1035.] Questions and Answers. 1729

diminution in subsequent periods. The hon. member and others may rest assured that the funds of the department ·will be expended in a perfectly im:vartial manner.

LAKE URANA.

:Mr. BALL: As the question of drain-· 'ing Lake U ran a has now been before the Government for a considerable ·period, will the Premier bring the matter before Cabinet at an early date with ·a view to final it~· being reached?

J\1r. TULLY: In view of the numerous letters of complaint that I have J:eceived from settlers adjacent to Lake Urana, whose lands have been rendered unproductive for the past three and a half _years, will the Premier say when the ·Government will fulfil its promise, made prior to the last elections, to carry out the drainage scheme in connection with that lake?

J\Ir. STEVEN"S: The question of -draining Lake "Grana was before Cabinet about six weeks ago, and Cabinet then decided to refer the whole matter to the officers of the 'Vorks Department for report, regarding it as a purely technical question. I received that report <>n Friday, and it will be considered by •Cabinet at the earliest possible date.

TECHXICAL COLLEGE EXA1IINATIOXS.

J\Ir. ELLIOTT: Following upon a <.J.uestion I asked the :Minister for Education, to which he replied that concession fares are not a,•ailable to correspondence students of the Technical College in the subject of meat inspection, house drainage, sewer plumbing, carpentry, and sheep and wool, will the J\{inister for Transport make passes at concession fares available to such students to ena·bl"e them to tra>el to Sydney for their final examinations ?

Lt.-Colonel BRUXNER: The question of concession fares is not one entirely for the Commissioner for Railways. The concessions given to those who come within the jurisdiction of the Department of :Education are provided, under an agreemen"t by which that department

5 R . _, .. ·'

reimburses the Commissioner for Railways for the service rendered. If the Department of Education desires further travelling concessions to be granted to certain classes of students, it can be arranged between those two departments.' I will bring the matter before the Commissioner for Railways.

GOLD PRODUCTION.

Mr. D. CL YXE: Has the attention of the Minister for 1fines been directed to a statement that appeared in the 8ydney jJf orning H eral1l on Saturday last, under the heading of "Gold Yield," that £1,500,000 worth of gold was being produced weekly in South Africa? Is it also a fact that the East Rand authorities have authorised an expenditure of £23,000,000 in the 'next two years on mining development~ In view of the great commercial and economic importance of gold-mining to the State, and the excellent results obtained in South Africa by the encouragement of the working of low-grade ores, will the Minister inform the House whether he is prepared to make available a substantial sum to assist the mining industry, so that the low-grade ores may be profitably worked?

Mr VINCEN"T: I did read a statement in the Sydney JJioming Herald on Saturday last with regard to the gold yield in South Africa. The sum cf £21,000,000 or £23,000,000, which it -is anticipated will be expended next year on the development of the field, is really a continuation of development on a lode that is known, and is not an expenditure on prospecting, or the opening-up of a new fields. So far as New South Wales is concerned, money is available for all · classes of gold-mining, whether it be lowgrade ore or high-grade ore. As a matter of fact, assistance has been given during the last few years for propositions em· bracing both types. The money available has not petered out. Quite recently a conference was held in Melbourne be· · tween representatives of the various min-

. ing departments of the Commonwealth, when the question of making further assistance availa~le was discussed, and

1730 Questions and Answe1's. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions and A nswe1·s.

a decision was reached. At the same time, however, the whole of the money available to this State had at that time been expended, and the additional money which has been promised by the Commonwealth, together with that which will be .made available by the State, will be used to enable prospecting· to be carried out throughout New South Wales during the current year.

MOTOR-CAR PARKING: UNIFOH :If METHOD.

l\1r. KILPATRICK: Will the Coloni.:tl Secretary inform me whether it is correct, as stated in the press, that there id to be a uniform method of motor-car parking throughout New South \Vales~ Is it also a fact that what is known as "head-on" parking has been in vogue for many :rears? ·wm he take up the question with the police, who, in conjunction with himself, have charge of this matter, and allow the councils and municipalities to decide what methods of parking will suit their different areas within the State of New South \~r ales? Is he aware tha~ on account of the lay-out of the different towns one uniform type may not be suitable?

Captain CHAFFEY: The traffic regulations are the regulations issued by th'3 Transport Department, under the admiuistra tion of my colleague, the Minister for Transport. The question that he ha;; raised will be brought under the :Mini:;ter's notice with a view to· consideration being_ given t-o it.

METROPOLITAN COLLIERY: STOPpAGE Of' IVORK.

:Thir. SWEENEY: Will the Minister for Mines tell the House if he has made any inquiries regarding the stoppage of work at the Metropolitan Colliery, and i£ so, the result of those inquiries? If not, will the :Minister take steps to bring about a settlement of the dispute which will permit o£ the employees resuming work in the ver.v near future?

Mr. YIKCENT: I believe the colliery to which the hon. member refers is one (!.t which there has been a strike in regard to. timbering. Inquiries have been

made into that matter by officers of the department. I understand the position is one under which the men claim the right to put in props that are considered by them to be necessary. 1~s the law stands at present, the rights of the matter appear to be with the mining company or the manager, consequently the Department of liiines is not in a position to interfere.

GAS SERVICE: ).fALABAR.

Mr. HEFFHON: Following on a question I asked several weeks ago, with reference to the Australian Gas Light Company not carrying its gas supply to :Malabar, upon which the Minister for J.,ocal Government made representations tc the company; and in view of the fact that nothing has been done, and 2pparently the company does not intend to do anything, will the Minister administering the legislation controlling the supply of gas and electricity see that inquiries are made with regard to the inconvenier.ce that is caused to people not having a gas supply, and will he insist upon the gas monopoly doing the right thing by the residents of :Malabar?

Mr. SPOO:NEH: There is no need at this stage to embark upon an inquiry of ·the character suggested by the bon. member, who is wrong in his assumption that nothing is intended to be done. The actual position at the moment is that the matter has been referred to the Australian Gas Light Company. The company is investigating the position, and has promised to let me haTe a reply in due course. When that reply is to l!and, I shall forward the information to the hon. member.

CHRIS'1'MAS CHEER : RAFFLES.

:Mr. :MATTHEWS: Will the Colonial Secretary g·ive authority to unemployed organisations, Parents and Citizens' Associations, Old Age Pensioners' Associatio·ns, and similar organisations, permitting them to raffle hams and other oommodities, with a view to obtaining Christmas cheer within their. distr.icts?

Quest-ions ancl Answe1·s. [27 Nov., 1935.] Estimates. 1731

Captain CHAFFEY: The- hon. member, by the terms of his question, raises a peculiar situation. I am obliged to give decisions in accordance with the law.

An HoN. MEMBER: The Minister brought in the law!

·Captain CHAFFEY: No, I did not. The J~otteries and Art Unions' Act has been in existence for many years. vVhen a specific question is submitted to the department we have no alternative but t0 give an answer in accordance with the requirements of the law.

l\fr. D. CLYNE: Does the l\finister suggest that they go ahead without obtaining authority?

Captain CHAFFEY: I suggest nothing of the kind. I suggest that the whole matter can be tactfully handled m a way that will do harm to no one.

LEVEL CROSSING: HAMILTON.

Mr. ARTHUR: Has the attention of the Minister for Transport been drawn to the very unsatisfactory congestion of traffic that occurs daily at peak hours at the level crossing at Hamilton station? In view of this unsatisfactory condition, will the l\finister undertake to make available sufficient funds to construct either an overhead bridge or a subway at this important and congested crossing?

Lt.-Oolonel BRUXNER: l will have the matter investigated.

BATHS. COOK'S RIVER.

l\{r. TONGE: In view of the fact that year after year there are frequent fatalities through children being drowned in Cook's River; further, in view of the fact that the local municipal councils are not in a financial position to build baths, will the Minister for Public Works take into consideration the granting of a loan to those councils, free of interest, so that baths may be constructed?

Mr. SPOONER: I do not know that the hon. member is justified in saying that frequent drowning fatalities occur year after year at Cook's River, any more than such fatalities occur in other·

rivers of the State where children customarily bathe. I have no doubt fatalities occur, as they do in all parts of the State. I do not know that the district to which the hon. member refers can establish a case for money to be made available free of interest, or on the basis of a grant.

l\fr. ToNGE: There was £10,000 on the Loan Estimates that the hon. member's colleague cut out!

l\fr. SPOONER: I do not lmow what grant or adva·nce the bon. member is referring to. I am trying to answer the hon. member's question.

Mr. ToNGE: And I am trying to give the :Minister all the information!

Mr. SPO.QNER: If the hon. member considers that the municipal councils along the banks of Cook's River are entitled to special consideration in the matter of the construction of . baths, or if he thinks that money should be made available to them by 'way of loan or an advance, and he will ask the councils concerned to state their.reasons for such an application, it will receive consideration, but I suggest that there does not appear to be any special reason why money should be made available, on the basis stated, to the councils along Cook's River, as compared with councils in any other part of the. State.

ESTIMATES, 1935-1936. Commission of the Pence: Finger-prints-Elections:

"How to Vote" Cards-Duties of Police-Encouragement of Tourist Traffic-Workers' Compensation: Relief Work-Registmtion and Sterilisation of Dogo;-Food Relief Inspectors: Dismissal of Ur_ ,J_ P. O'St{]J.ivan-Unemployed: Housing and Clothing-Hospitals and· \Vorkers' C:ompenRation--~r ilk for Schoo} Children-Spectacles for unemployed-Dentat Treatment: Railway Passcs-~ledicnl Attention Panamatta Mental Hospital : Escapes-Charitable Institutions: Parliamentary CandiUatesHcalth of School Children-)lental Hospitals: Staffs-Treatment of Venereal Disease-Ambulances and Bush Nur~ing-Country Abattoirs__.. Extension of State Lotteries-Income Tax: Separation Allowances-~tatc Insurance Office -Startint{·Jlrice Betting: Police Action.

IN COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

(Consideration resumed from 26th November, viclc pag-e 1725).

1732: Esli11iales:

<;iOLONIAL SECRET,\RY,

Proposed vote, £1,414~260.

:Mr. BADDELE;y (Oe~snock} [3.11] :· I desire to· bring under the notice of the Colonial Secretary· a matter ·of very serious importance to the unemployed, · and which has some 'bearing on· the Workers' Compensation Act .. :l\fy object is to provide that emergency relief workers, '\•ho meet with accidents, shaH not be treated harshly. As the Minister probably· knows, the Act of 1926 provided that employees who met with acci~ dents while going to and from work should receive compensation. There are 1mmoers of relief men· who travel in buses and motor lorries owned· by the ~ouneil. Some of them .ma,_v ·travel ·five miles to work in. this way; y~t they are .not entitled to compensation if an aeci·dent·. occurs.

The CHAJR>LL'\': I dr::nv the attention ·of the hon. memberto the fact that th.is matter sliould be referred to· when the vote .for social services is under con- ·

: sideration. ~fr. BADDELEY: T will refer to the.

:.mattei· later, then, Mr. Chairman. l\fr. HEFFROX (Botan~·) [3.15]:

While the Estimates of the Colonial Secretary's Department ·are being discussed I desire· to ventilate ~ matter that I ventilated once previously, at

-question time. I refer to the appointment of justices of the peace. Ron. members will recollect that I brought before the House at. question time the case of a person who had been nomin::tte:i

:by me as a justice of the peace, and who was asked by the police to have his fin

: ger-prints taken. Ron. members will also recollect the reply the Colonial Sec

:.retary gave on that occasion, when he osaid that a reputable citizen should not ·object to having his finger-prints taken if somebody else of similar name had been convicted at some time or other, fo1· an offence against the law. I want to state the facts to the House, so that bon. members will know whv I asked that question. The facts m:~ that in ]If ascot there lived· a constituent of mine named William Henry ·wan, who was.a first-class letter sorter, and had been

Colonial Secrclary.

employed at the Pcstmaster-General'3 Department. He "'as a highly reputable/ citizen, who bad lived in. the .distriets .o£, Botany· and 1fa.scot, a.ll• his.· life;. He comes from ·a family that is highly re· · spectecl .from one end of the district .to · the other. It occurred. to .. me that he,,wa3 . a very desirable man to nominate as .a justice of the peace, so I nominated .him ..

Shortl.y afterwards a responsible oflker of the M::tscot police• called on. tbt ma:t. and, according to the latter's statement: to me, asked -him., to .. I;O· along to the police station and have his linger-pri.n.ts taken .. The uan got iu touch with rue and informed me-of what.bad.hapJ?ened, and, as a result, I raised the matter in the House. The Colonial Sccretarv said he would.· have necessary: iuquiries.made and would achrise -me·in clue cou.rse. He was as good as his word, and later I received the following letter from him:-W~th further reference. to. your· repre

sentations in relation to ·Mr. IV. J .. H. :Wall,. of llG Cowarcl·strec.t, Mascot, whom you nominated for. appointment to the Com· mission o£ the Peace, I ·desire to say that from inqui1·ies instituted in the matter I am ·satisfied that suggestions made arc not borne· out. l\Iy information is tb.a.t ~fr.

\\'all. was not asked to have Ius fingerprints taken. TIc was· simply- asked whether he would hase auy objection to such a course, in the eYent of any person with a similar name to his own being inclu.ded in the police records. ~fr. Wall was not requested to attend the station, nor were his finger·prints taken.

That information was probably' supplied by the sergeant, The Colonial Sec· retary said that the man• might have to go along· and have his :finger-prints taken. Apparently, the usual procedure when a complaint is alleged against an officer of the police, is that the police officer is asked to "Please explain." He explains, and his explanation is regarded as a full and complete one and closes the door to any further inquiry. I regard that attitude as entirely wrong, Someone, apart from the ·officer concerned, ought to make the explanation·.and-supply the report. I will' s·ay, for the sake of argument; that the state- · ment. of. the police sergeant who carried ·

Estimates: [27 Nov., l935.] Golohial Secretary.

out 'this inquiry is correct. I will suppose that the man was simply asked if he would have any objection to having

· his :finger-prints taken if it was found that a person of similar name to his was included in the police records. I desire

· to make it quite clear to hon. members that I am not making any attack on the police force in general. I am making 1111

atta.ck on the principle of asking a reputable citizeH, because there is someone '

·on the police records with a name simi. lar to his, who has a conviction · against him, to have his finger-ptints taken. In thi~ particular case, the· man was known to be a life-long observer of the law in every shape and form.

It is scandalous that this practice should obtain in a community such as ours. The men whom I have nominated are reputable citizens. who have lived in their respective districts practically all of their lives. The first man to whom I shall refer entered the public service immediately he left school, and was a :firstdass letter-sorter in the PostmasterGeneral's Department at the time I nominated him for appointment as justice of the peace. That fact alent'

. should have influenced the police officer concerned, if he had any common sense, for he should have known that any person handling his l\iajesty's mails would not be tolerated in that position if he had a criminal record. Apparently the Minister justifies a police officer, who has in his charge the liberties of the people, saying to a reputable citizen, "Your name is 'Blank.' I do not know anything about you, .but as there is a man named 'Blank' on our criminal records you will have to come along and have your finger-prints taken, and prove that you are not that person.'' Assumo) that, in a few years' time, the present Speaker of this House desired to be appointed a justice of the peace, and at the same time the name "Daniel Levy"

·appeared on the criminal records. ·would ·it not be considered an outrage if Sir ·Daniel Levy were compelled to go to police headquarters and have his fingerprints recorded before he could be made a justice of the peace? If it would be wrong in that instance, it is 'Wrong in

·the ease of a tried and trusted serva11t of the Postmaster-General's Department, or any other reputable citizen.

I have raised this matter because I feel ·keenly about it. · This is not· the first time the trouble has happened in connection with my nominees, a11d, on each occasion the probity of the men concerned was quite above suspiCIOn .. Some years ago I nominated twopersons living· in I'll,¥- electorate· for ap-pointment as justices of the peace. One, . whose name is O'Sullivan, had been for· ten years in business at Maroubra, and· he is to-day an alderman of the Randwick Council. Because another person named O'Sullivan had a conviction against him, my nominee was asked togc to police headquarters to have his . finger-prints taken, in order, presumably, that they mig·ht be placed m tho. "rogues' gallery.''

· Jltir. Jlt{Am: Does the hon. member think that if Mr. O'Sullivan had no_t gone there might have been some doubt against his character?

Jltir. HEFFRON: If he had been an almost unknown man from another part of the country the precaution might have been warranted, for everybody will I'ealise that it is necessary to be careful in the selection of justices of the peace .. However, there is a great difference b,;tween making common-sense investigations and putting a man on the. same level as the worst gunman or cut-throat in our midst. I also nominated a l\{r .. John Stewart, who at the time was :x. member of the Electricians' Licensing· Board, having been appointed by thcBavin Government. He had lived in· the Jltiatraville ·district for some time,

. "~as president of the Sydney Trades and Labour Council, and was appointed by the Minister for Local Government to the Electricity Advisory Committee.

:Mr. D. CLYXE: He has. been on the S,ydney Oitil-:cns' Organising Committee since· its inception!

Jltir. HEFFRON: That is so. His character is unimpeachable. Yet he was subjected to the humiliation of having to ·go to police headquarters to have hi.s finger-prints taken. Sergeant Frost, w1o

1734 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Colonial Secretary.

is stationed at Daceyville and is a resident of Long Bay or Malabar, was responsible for the outrage, though he has known both l\fr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Stewart well for years. I am not blaming the Commissioner, the Metropolitan Superintendent, or the police generally, but I do claim that there are in the police force officious officers who are not fit to wear the uniform, and should, instead be lJushing a barrow or truck Whe~ I pr~viously referred to this subject I did not lay the blame at the door of the Colonial Secretary. If the Colonial Secretary stands for a practice of that kind he must take his full share of the responsibility. The practice is so scandalous and reprehensible that it is time that this Government put its foot down on it. The police should know enough of the men of the underworld and of men who have criminal records to be able at least to discriminate between them and respectable citizens. I know that some person with a record was the other day actually empanelled as a juryman. Things like that do happen, but the fact that the police, wheu <!Ompiling the lists of jurors, are not ab~e to discriminate between criminals and respectable citizens is no reason why they should humiliate respectable citizens who are nominated as justices of the peace by haYing their finger-print.:; taken. I regard a justice of the peace as· a responsible officer in the same way as public servants are responsible officers, and if finger-prints are to be taken in one case they should be taken in others. It might even 'be suggested that Parliamentar,y candidates should have their ·:finger-prints taken.

:ftfr. FosTER: I think it would be, a good idea to make us all give our finger·prints!

Mr. HEFFRON: It might be advisable for finger-prints to be taken for general identificntion purposes, and perhaps there is a good deal in the point of view of the hon. member, but that point of view is not held by the average citizen of New South Wales, the Commonwealth, or any . other part of the world. The practice of taking finger-prints is essentially associated with criminals, and, consequently,

any man who is asked to allow his fingerprints to be taken naturally fe~ls he is being placed on the same level as a convicted criminal. That was the obvious intention of 'the police officer who was responsible for the taking of fingerprints in the cases to which I have refen·ed, and it is time that we put a foot down on this practice. The time has arrived when a direction should be given to the police to devise some meall$ of ascertaining whether a man is a reputable citizen, without submitting him to the indignity of having his fingerprints taken. The fault lies not with the department, but with certain highhanded, stiff-necked police officers, who, insteftd of guarding our citizens, should be following some other vocation, which does not reQ.uire the exercise of intelligence. The Colonial Secretary has admitted that, as the result of inquiry, it has been found that the police sergeant did say that the man, to whom I have referred, was told that he might have to go along· and have his finger-prints taken. Even taking that as !he worst offence committed, I s1.1bmit that, in view of the man's excellent character, and of the position which he holds in the public service, the action taken by the police officer was entirelv unwarranted. The police should recoiuise that they ha,·e to deal, not with coolies in some other part of the world, but with people who are liYing in a free British country.

Captain OHA:FFEY (Tamworth), Colonial Secretary [3.37] : I am rather glad that the hon. member has referred to this ma!ter, because he has made certain admissions which clear the air in respect of his action when he first asked a question on this matter. I think that he was wrong in making an attack on the method of making inquiries. In the instance referred to, the hon. member, from information supplied to him, stated that the person in question had· been su'bjected to all kinds of indignities, but the facts are not as originally stated by the hon. member. The sergeant saw Mr . Wall and collected the necessary information, and when asked by Mr. \Vall

Esiimates: [27 RoY., 1D:J5.] Colonial Secretary. 1735

whether he had all that he required, the sergeant said, '"t es, J\Ir. \Vall, unless something transpires, and in that case we ma~· ask ~·ou to come along and have your fing-er-prints taken; that would be in the e\ent of ~·our name conflicting with that of ~omc person with a criminal reconl." That is all that happened.

Ur. HEFFROX: Can the niinister imagine anything more stupid than that?

Captain CHAFFEY: The hon. member should be a little more careful, because I would recall to his mind the fact that. in respect of certain }Jersons nominated as justices of the peace, he Dmitted to do certain things, and asked me to overcome the difficulty.

Mr. HEFFROX: Tell the Committee the facts. Since I have been in this Chamber I have never had anything to hide. If I have said an:ything or made repro-

. sentations to any hon. member I have nothing to hide, and the Minister is welcome to tell the world of what trans·· pired. I would not say to any hon. member anything that I would not say to any one else. If anything I have said to the Minister is questionable he ia c1uit0. at liberty to place it on record!

Captain CHAFFEY: The hon. member is putting a wrong construction on my remarks.

nir. H~:FFHON: I asked the Minister to be good enough to put on the list certain names that I had omitted. The l\iinister did that, and I thanked him 1 hen, and I thank him now for his courtcs,y. There was nothing dishonourable or stupid in that!

Captain CHAFFEY: There was nothing dishonourable or stupid in what the sergeant did. The hon. member will recognise that mistakes will occur, and that that is applicable to the police force, or to any other body of men. The practice to which the hon. member objects has been in operation during the regime of various Governments over a number of years. Only a limited number of complaints have been made, and, if an officer of police acts wrongly, or mistakenly, steps are at once taken to correct the position. As the hon. member is aware, there were serious develop-

men t3 recently in com'.ccticn with a jury matter. Mistakes must occasionally be made. in any community.

llfr. HEHnox: But in this case the man was a public servant and there was no necessity for this action to be taken!

Captain CHAF:FEY: Probably, there was a misunderstanding. All that happened was that the sergeant made certain inquiries, and he made a mistake, which was mag-nified by Mr. Wall and others. 1 can assure the ·Oomrril.ttee that steps have been taken to overcome these difficulties, althoug-h I expect that occasional mistakes will still be inade. The Committee can rest assured that the police will not subject an;J:one to unnecessary inconvenience.

Mr. CAHILL (Arncliffe) [3.42]: .A.t the last State elections, at which I was a candidate for the Arnclifi'e electorate, the names of all the candidates appeared in alphabetical order upon the ballot paper. 111ine was No. 1 on the list, while that of the gentleman who previously represented the electorate, and who was a supporter of the present Government, was No. 3. In every polling booth in that electorate-and I presume that this applied also to other electorates-an instruction card was exhibited notifying· electors how to vote. Sometimes th~ best-informed people become confuse~ in regard to prefere11tial voting, and look for guidance on the subject. The instruction card to which I refer did not show the actual names of the candidates, but gave sample names, and then showed certain numbers in the squares opposite the names. It so happened that the instruction card issued in my ele9torate had No. 1 placed in the square where the name of the previous representative of that electorate appeared on the actual ballot paper, while the number "5" was placed in the position where my name actually appeared.

Captain CHAFFEY: The "How-to-vote" card was an official card supplied by the electoral office !

Mr. CAHILL: That may be so, but it is essential that great care should be exercised in order that the impartiality o! the ballot may not be impugned.

1.736' .Estimates:· [ASSEMBLY.] Colonial Secretary.

:Many people become confused when they enter a polling booth, and .sometimes mark their ballot paper· in exact accOTdance with the instruction card that is exhibited.

.Captain CHAFFEY: I ,am· confident that that was purely a .coincidence in the case to which the bon. member refers. Everybody knows that l\fx .. Gould, the Electol'al Commissioner, is above reproach, and that he :wollid not do anything unfair. Those instruction .cards are prepared in the electoral ·office without regard to the electol'aie ·O'l' candidate.!

Mr. CAHILL: I .am .quite Sllil'e of that, and I have nothiQg at all to say against that officer:. I .am simply pointing out that in this case it was certainly unfair to me, and .I suggest that any instruction card issued should be so worded .as to ·o;vercome the possibility of ·:a·nY such ·objection being raised in future.

Captain ·CHAFFEY.: Dan the bon. member make a practical suggestion!

Mr. CAHH,L: The only suggestion I can make is that the numbers should be omitted 'altogether ·ft,om the instruction card.

Mr. NESS: What is the need foT that~

Ur. CAHILL: If the hen. member 'l'l'ere a candidate in an electorate where his constitpents were •equally dinded in political thought, .and the instruction paper indicated that No. 1 should be placed in a square where the name of one of his opponents appeared on the ballot paper, I am sure that he would object.

Mr. NESS: But a candidate issues his own "How-to-vote" cal'd, and supplies a copy of it to every elector in his constituency!

Mr. CAHILL: That is so, but, as the hon. member is ·aware, no candidate's "How-to-vote" card is a]lowed to be re.ferred to in a polling booth. If it is placed on a table in the booth, the retm:ning officer will ·object to its being there. If an elector requires any information as to how he ·shall vote, l1e obtains it from the official instruction cards that are posted in the booth. My complaint is that the instruction card~

posted in every booth in the Arncli:ffe-· electorate suggested that the No. 1 vote should be placed in a square oppositewhich the name of the previous Parliamentary representative of that district appea1'ed on the 'ballot paper. I referred: the matter to the Electoral Commissioner, and he assured me that similar instruction cards weTe issued in all the: electomtes. The officer in cha1:ge asked me if I could suggest :anything to overcome the difficulty. I cannot, beyond suggesting that no numbers at all should be placed -on the instruction card. The ·Government ·has the onus placed upon it of seeing that the electoral ·office issues. an instniCtion card that will cause noinjustice to any candid;te.

Captain CaAFFEY: From what the· hon. member has said, I am satisfied· that he is not making any charge against: the -officer in charge of the electoral office!

l\fr. CAHILL: That is so. I say definitely that I make no charge of anykmd against :Mr. Goulcl. I Teferred the matter to him, and he explained it to my satisfaction. While I was satisfied with his explanation as a public officer~ I am not satisfied that these instructions should 'be p11t there. I would ·likethe Minister to make a note of thismatter, and see that in future instructions aTe not iss11ed that would suggest to a voter to place a certain figure on theballot-paper that would 'be unfair to any paTiicular candidate.

llfr. NESS (Dulwich Hill) [3.51] : r desire to refer to the attitude of theGovernment in keeping the police fore!')' below strength. If 'l'l'e expect the •Com-· missioner of Police to do his duty hemust ha,,e a sufficient number of officers. To-.day the services of the police areused in many av.enues. They are on h:affic duty--

Mr. C . .A. KELLY: It is the best bodyin New South Wales !

Mr. ;N'ESS: It is. We ha\e police OTI;

traffic duty and on food relief investigation. [Committee counted.] I would: like to .say a word or two with respect to the remarks of the hon. member for Botany with regard to the taking of the finger-prints of prospective justices of·

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] Colonial Secretary. 1737

.the peace. No honest man who has understand that between 6 a.m. and 8 nothing against him would object to his a.m. there are no police on duty; they :finger-prints being taken. are engaged in physical culture. During

Mr. W. DAVIES: :How would the bon. those hours the burglars and murderer& member _like his finger-prints to be have a fri)e 1·un. taken~ Mr. W. DAVIES: What time did they

Mr. NESS: I would put them on the rob the hon. member~ paper straight away. I remember a Mr. NESS: About 5 a.m. case that occurred-not during the time Mr BADDELEY: ·where was the hon. of the present ·Colonial Secretary-when membed a man, who had served a sentence for Mr. NRRR: T was in bed, ·but that did' murder, was sworn in as a justice of the not matter. After ringing the Peterpeace. A policeman found that out, and sham station I asked to be transferred! it just shows how very careful the Min- to Marrich."Ville. The sergeant there ister must be. Some form of declara- told me had just come on duty, and that tion should be made ·by the man who is ·between the hours of midnight and 8 to be nominated, so as to protect his a.m. J\farrickville, with a population of nominator. If the man to be nominated 48,000, had only a police "pill-'box" as makes a false statement in that declara- protection. Twenty-nine "pill-boxes"" tion he should be put in gaol. There ha\'e been established in the metropolitan are men in all electorates who are live area. Against that, seventeen stations wires, and may be, to all intents and have been closed in the same area, ten purposes, respectable citizens, and a have been closed in the northern dismember 'of Parliament might think them tricts, and six in the southern and quite eligible to serve the public as Dubbo districts. In the area . withiu justices of the peace. \"\Then these men and surrounding my electorate there is were asked whether there was anything J\farrickville with a population of 48,000~ against them they would probably revly Petersham with 29,000, Ashfield with "No." 40,000, and Canterbury with 50,000 in-

According to a recent report the polico habitants. In that area we haveforce is 230 below its ordinary strength. only Ashfield, Petersham, and Campsie Something like fifty ca~didates were put police stations. It is all very well for through in 1933, fifty in 1934, anJ members of the police force to take time thirty in March last. off for physical exercise, but if a man is

Captain ·O:riAFFEY: Another fifty are physically fit when he joins the force in the depot now! and does his duty•properly, he can keep

Mr. NESS: What is the good of hav- physically fit without taking specia1 ing them in the depot~ They should be exercise. To let men off for two hours on the street. every morning between the hours of (} • Captain CHAFFEY: They have to be and 8 a.m. is to give an open invitation

trained first! to burglars and thieves to carry out ::Hr. NESS: The ~Iinister should their nefarious work.

look ahead and provide for retire- I ask the Colonial Secretary to giYe ments. If the Government wants the consideration to the question of reCommissioner of Police to give of hia • establishing the 1.1arrickville Police

"best he must have the men.· I believe . Station. To give an instance of what the Commissioner of Police is a very happens: Recently, a man driving acapable man, but it does not matter how car while he was under the influence of capable he is if the force is not properly liquor bumped into the back of another staffed. The other morning I wanted car and damaged it. The accident octo get in touch with the police in con- cured within a hundred yards of the nection with a burglary that had taken Canterbury Police Station. Someone, p1ace at my house. I rang up the Pet- went to the police station and asked ersham station. The sergeant told me the constable in charge to come and that he was the only ma.n on duty. I take particulars of the accident, but he-

1738 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Colonial Sec1·etttry.

said he could not leave, as he was the only person in the station. At his sug-: gestion, they rang up Campsie station, and a Police Department car came along in fairly quick time. The point I desire to make is that no police station should be left with only one man in attendance. There should always be two or more officers available. People should not be left at the mercy of burglars and other wrongdoer::. It is false economy to restrict the number of the police force in this way. The Minister should demand from Cabinet adequnte funds to enable the Commissioner to appoint a sufficient number of police. The Commissioner and his staff are thoroughly efficient, and can do all that is required if they are given the necessary assistance. The GoYernment should never economise at the ell:pense of the health, wealth, and prosperity of the people.

Mr: C. A. KELLY (Bathurst) [4.8]: I deprecate the speech of the ~finistzr in charge of the House, in which he mentioned private conversations between members of Parliament. The :Minister said that an hon. member came and asked him certain things. It is nothing to me what the hon. member for Botany said to the Colonial Secretar~·, but I suggest this House is the last place in which to introduce personal coiwersations between members of Parliament.

I rose principally to speak about the Tourist Bureau, which is controlled by the Colonial Secretar~'. It is a tourist bureau in name only. It costs the country a larg-e amount of money, but there is 'no visible sign of life around the bureau. In New South Wales we haYe some of the most wonderful scenerv in the world. I havCJ had the privil~ge of se:;ing beautiful scenery in many parts of the world, but no country has scenery that excels that of New South Wales and of Australia. It may he argued that this is a small matter to bring forward, but I contend that it is not. It costs enough to run the country properly without wasting money, yet we are paying a large amount in salaries to men who do not know the first thing about running a tourist bureau. All last week the Victorian Tourist Bureau had

br~adcast talks to the people of New South 'Vales, telling them of the glorious !)laces they could see in Victoria, where to stay, and giving all the information possible about the sister State. Surely hon. members are ashamed of the way in which beautiful parts of this State are adYertised. The Japanese can show us points in this matter. They issue wonderful booklets advertising Japan and giYing that country. a marvellous advertisement. If I want to sell the goods I produce I have to show people what they are. In Japan, most attractive booklets are published with the object of inducing people to visit that country and to "sell" their tourist resorts. The reason so many of our people leave Australia on holiday tours of other countries is largely because our own tourist resorts are so poorly advertised.

Captain 0HAFFEY: Has the hon. member seen the two booklets published by the Tourist Bureau during the last fortnight?

l\ir. C. A. KELLY: No.

Captain CHAI'FEY: I think the hon. member will admit, when he sees them, that they are most attractive productions!

1\ir. C. A. KELLY: I am glad to hear the Minister say so, and shall be interested to peruse them. There are many beauty spots in my electorate which have not been adequately advertised. The fact is that the officer in charge of the New South ·wales Tourist Bureau seems to know little about the "selling" of our scenic resorts. There haYe been defalcations in the Tourist Bureau, and when I raised the question on a previous occasion the Minister said he would answer it, but he has not done so. Those defalcations must be the fault of some responsible officer who should be suitably dealt with. At J enolan Caves there is separate control of the various branches of the staff. The engineer there is not subject to the control of the manager or the chief guide, but takes his orders from Sydney. Although the temporary guides at those

,Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] Colonial Secreta1·y. 1739

caves have asked to be put on the permanent list, their request has been refused, notwithstanding that many of them have had vears of service. All they desire is to be" given the privileges enjoyed by the permanent officer~.

. Captain CHAFFEY: The management has recently been centralised. It is now under central control.

Mr. C. A. KELLY: I am glad to hear that something is being done. These temputary men cmmot get justice. l have asked the department to have their position rectified, and as their representative in Parliament, I claim the right to put their case before the Minister. For fifteen ;years they haYe acted as guides and worked alongside permanent men who receive certain privileges. \Vhen I asked the director to have these men made permanent I was informed that their applications could not be entertained. Those applications, when submitted to the director, should be forwarded by him to the Under Secretary of the department, who should send them on to the Public Service Board with a recommendation for or against. That has not been done. In nine cases out of ten, Mr. Lambie has· turned down these applications. When I rang him up and asked him about the matter he said he would look at the papers. I then asked if the applications should not be submitted by him to the Under Secretary, and he replied that he would look into them. These men ha>e given good service to tourists, and for years have worked side by side with other men who receive certain privileges because they zre on the permanent staff. Mr. Lambie refused to allow the papers to pass through the usual departmental channels. No wonder there is discontent amongst the employees of the Tourist Bureau. I am informed that the advertising display in London of the State of New South Wales is a disgrace. All other tourist bureaux, so far as I know them, have definite plans for "selling" their country's attractions. Possibly the l\finister does not know of the position in the New South Wales Tourist Bureau, because H he did, I am sure he would see that justice was done tq every employee. Like

the display in London, the advertising of the Tourist Bureau in New South Wales is most unsatisfactory, and if the Minister does not do something to improve the present state of affairs I propose to move that a select committee be appointed to inquire into the administration of the bureau from the director down to the humblest employee. The administrative officers should be compelled to do their job 1Jropr.rly. New South ·Wales should have a real live tourist bureau instead of the virtually defunct establishment we have to-day.

l\fr. GOLLAN: I mo>e: That the quesEou be now put.

The Committee divided:

A~·es, 44; noes, 25; majority, 19.

AYES.

Bate, H. J. Bennett. C. E. Brown,M. Budd, A. E. Buttenshaw, E. A. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. Dunningham, J. i\1. Fitzsimons, H. P. Fleck, Dr. Foster, W. F. Goldfinch, Sir Philip Gollan, G. C. Henry, A. S. Howarth, W. A. H. Jackson, J. Kilpatrick, l\I. Lawson. J. A. Lee, J. R. Main, H. Muir, A. l\forton, l\f. F.

MoYerly, A. H. Ness, J. T. Primrose, H. L. Heirl, A. E. Reid, J. T. Ross, J. C. Ross,\¥. P. M. Sanders, E. L. Shand, Major Sinclnir, C. A. Solomon, E. S. Thomas, N. Vincent, R.. S. \Vaclclell, ,T. W. Wade, B. M. Wnlker, R. B. Weaver, R. W. D. Webb, Dr. Yeo, A. W.

Telle1's, A rclill, G. E. Tonking, A. U.

NOES.

Arthur, J. G. Baddeley, J. M. Burke, Frank Cahill, J. J. Cameron, R.. Clyne, D. Davidson, M. A. Davies, W. Gorman, R. D. Hawkins, F. H. Heffron, R. J. Horsington, E. M. Kelly, C. A.

Lang, J. T. Lazr.arini, C. C. McGirr, James Matthews, C. H. O'Sullivan, M. Quirk, J. Shannon, 'T. J. Stanley, F: Sweeney, J. T. Tully, .J. M.

Telle?·s, Carlton, W. J. Tonge, A.

Que!tion so resolved in the affirmative.

l'HO Estimates: [A'SSEMlBtY.]

Question-That the vote be agreed to -put. The Committee divided:

Ayes, 43; noes, 25; majority, 18. AYES.

Ardill, G. E. Bate, H. J. Bennett, C. E. Brown, M ..

. Budd, A. E. Buttenshaw, E. A. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. Dunningham, J. M. Fleck, Dr. Foster, 'i''V. F. Frith, W. Goldfinch, Sir Philip Gollan, G. C. Henry, A. S. Howarth, W. A. H. Kilpatrick, 1\f. Lawson, J. A. Lee, J. R. Lloyd, S. A. Main, H.

Mair,A. Morton, M. F. 1\:[o,·erly, A. H. Ness, J. T. Primrose, H. L. Reid, A. E. Reicl, J. T. Ross, J. C. Sanclers, E. L. Shancl, Major Sinclair, C. A. Tonking, A. U. \'incent, R. S. Waclclell, J. W. Wade, B.l\f. Walker, R. B. Weave1-, R. W. D. Webb, Dr. Yeo, A. W.

Tellers, Solomon, E. S. Thomas, N.

NOES. Arthur, J. G. Lang, J. T. ·Baddeley, J. M. Lazzarini, C. C. Burke, Frank ~IcGirr, James ·Cahill, J. J. :Matthews, C. H. Cameron, R. O"Sullh·an, M. Carlton, W. J. Quirk, J. Clyne, D. Shannon, T. J. Davidson, 1\f. A. Sweeney, J. T. Davies, W. Tonge, A. Gorman, R. D. Tully. J. 11-L Heffron, R. J. Tellers, Horsing-ton, E. 2\L Hawkins, F. H. Kelly, C. A. Stanley, F.

Question so resoh·ed in the affirmative. Vote agreed to.

MIXISTER FOR SOCLo\L SERYICES.

Proposed vote, £3,585,082. )fr. BADDELEY (Oessuock) [4.28j:

I notice that under this heading there is an item of £1,405 'for overtime. I understand that a little while ago, a committee was set up to inquire into the working of overtime in the service, and it was then agreed that there :was too much overtime, especially in view of the number of persons who were out of work. Almost every d€partmental estimate discloses that provision is made for substantial payments for overtime. If that practice were discontinued the Government would be enabled to provide a good deal more work for juveniles, an objective which the Premier professes ~o have at heart.

The Government should investigate the Sydney Industrial Blind Institution with a view to nationalising it. I have frequently heard complaints from €mployees on this institution t() the tffect that the wages they receive are too small, while their hours and conditions are too onerous. Some time ago· these employees, who suffer from an awful affliction, made representations to the Australian Labour party .conference in an endeavour to have their conditions ·bettered. They are entitled to e•a·y consideration, and it is time that the Goverru11e11t took the necessary action. Some time ago a motion was submitted urging that a select committee be appointed to investigate the activities of this institution, but its purpose was not realised.

It is most desirable that the Goyernment should make some provision to have those engaged on unemployment relief work coYered by the W orkerfl' Compensation Act when travelling to and from their work. Only ?. little while ago an accident occurred to one of these men while being conveyed to work, and it is quite possible that other vehicles used for this work might capsize, witL fatal results, leaving the dependants of the deceased worker without compensa· tion. When I was Minister for Labour and Industry in the Lang Government, in 1926, I amended the Vi'orkers' Compensation Act to pro•ide that eYery worker should be co•ered by that legislation from the time he left home on his way to work, until he returrnecl from work. That provision was deleted bv the Bm•in -Gov-ernment in 1930, and all efforts .to lrave it reinserted ha•e been in vain. The law makes it clear that an employer may accept the responsibility of declarl.ng that an employee is travelling to and from work during working hours, thus rendering h-im eligible for workers' compensation ,during such periods, 'but shires and municipalities are disinclined to assume this responsibility. I have a note from a Mr. David Lewis, seCl'€tarY of the relief workers in the Northern District, indicating that, in response to

Esl·imales: [2i N'ov.,1~35.], Socia} Serviczs ..

representations in this direction to· thP. T{!JPro, Shire Council,. he had. received the· following reply :

Rc insurance compensation· when travelling to and from work. Thi.s matter has been. fully gone into, with both the insur.::mce company and the department, an(l the -council cannot do more than is at present being done. The employees are fully -covered under the Workmen's Compensa· tion Act as. is required, but apparently it does not provide for other than working hours unless. the particular circumstances of a specific accident renders the council liable under a decision at law. It is considered, therefore, that no good purpose would be served in further discussion with the coun-cil, as it cannot do other than is laid down by law and the conditions imposed by the Government.

On one occasion a ~own clerk declared that he was prepared to issue the necessary instruction, and assume responsibility, but the depa1:tment declined to pern1.it him to do so. That has nothing· to do with. the department. If it is good enough for the Government to set aside £150,000 for the relief of the unemployed, it is good enough for this Committee to· tell the Minister to direct that these councils and shires shall, when their employees have to travel to and from work, give instructions accordingly and thus accept the responsibility for workers' compensation in respect of accidents. I submitted two cases in point to Mr., Lamond, Registrar of the Workers' Compensation Commission. The Commission inquired into them and forwarded me the following letter :-

'iVith reference to your personal representations regarding the provision of transport for relief workers employed by the T:uro Shire· Council, I have to state that under the Workers' Compensation Act, 1926-29, a worker is entitled to compen.sation when he meets with personal injury nrising out of and in the course of his employment.

In the case of Hewitson v. St. Helens Colliery Company, Limite(l, 16 B.W.C.C. 230, the. test is laid down as to whether a man is in the course of his employment. Lord Wrenb.ury states nt page 264:

"'The man is not in the course· of his empioyment UJlless the· facts are such t.bat it. is in the· course of Iris employment, airil in performance of a duty under his contract of service, that he is found in the place where the accident occurs. If there is only a right and there is no obli·

gation biuding on the man in the matter of l~s. employment, there is no liability." In the case of Ga.skell v. St. Helens Cole

liery Company Limited (1934) 27-B.w:c.c. 32, the facts were that pithead baths were erected close to a mine and were only used by men employe(l in the mine. ·The employers of the miners l-eased the lan(T on which· the baths were erected to four tms· tees, two appointed by the employers and two by . the workmen. The employers and the workmen were also equally represented on the management committee of the baths and both sides paid towards the upkeep of the baths. The firemen employed in the mine were. instructed to inform their men that they must use the baths after each shift. Of 1,100 miners, 1,000 used the baths, and those who did not had to see the manager, but they were not dismissed. One o~ ,the firem.en, whilst having a bath, met w1t.1 au accident, anfl he claimed compen· sation from the employers. The county court judge found that it was an onler that the miners shoulcl have baths, and that the order formed part of their contract of service, and that the workman's accident, therefore, arose out of and in the course of the employment. The employers appealed.

It was held, assuming that the instructions given as to taking baths amounted to an order, there was no evidence that such an order was ever a term of the contract of service, as -the taking of baths was not sometlring done in discharge of a duty to the employer. The accident did not there· fore, arise out of and in the course' of the employment.

Slesser, L.J., states at page 42 :-"There are certain contracts of service where cer· tain orders may properly be given witlrin the contract. A (lomestic servant is bound to obey the· reasonable orders- of a master within the scope of liis or her work and so with other contracts of service but' it is ~ot suggested here tha.t there is' anything m the contract of serVIce of working in a coal m:ine which necessarily involves an ob.ediencc t~ an order to take a bath on premises outsHle the coal mine, or indeed within the area owned by the coal owner. In order; therefore, to show that it is directly or indirectly a term of the contract, and that a duty was owing to the employer under the contract to do it, it is necessary . to show that some special term was imported into this contract, placing- upon thE\ men working in this colliery, in addition to their duty diligently and faithfully to work for coal, an obligation to take baths in the prescribed places."

If, therefore, the Tarro Shire Council maltes it a term of the worker's employment that he shall use the transport provided, then the. worker will be acting in the course of his employment and will be

1742 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Social Services.

entitled to compensation shoula any lllJury arise therefrom, even though he receive no specific payment for the time so spent in travelling 'to the scene of the work. Irrespective of the section in the Act which relates to travelling to and from work, the men engaged on emergency relief work should be entitled to compensation if they meet with an accident while travelling to and from their work. If the council and shires instruct the men to travel to and from work, and an accident occurs either in a worker's own time or in the council or shire's time, he would be entitled to compensation, but not one council or shire in this State will accept that responsibility. I want the Government, before making any further grants to councils or shires for emergency relief work, to make it mandatory that the,y must assume this responsibility, in the event of accidents happening to the workers during travelling time. There is no reason why the councils and shires should not assume this responsibility, particularly as it would not involve any increase in the insurance rates. Only the other day I saw a motor lorry capsize; fortunately, no one was hurt, but had one of the men been injured, he would not have been entitled to compensation. In order to test the Committee on this matter, I move:

That the vote be reduced by £1.

Mr. THOMAS (Bondi) [4.49]: I wish to refer to a small item in the Colonial Secretary's accounts. It is an amount of £1,000 which is set down in the Estimates practically every year to be expended on the destruction of unwanted dogs. The point is that added to that expenditure are many thousands of pounds expended by the R.S.P.C.A. every year on the destruction of dogs. Instead of spending money for this purpose, it should be utilised in improving the health of· sick children and others in hospitals. The law should be such as to make it unnecessary to expend thousands of pounds yearly on collecting and destroying dogs. At present there is a dog registration fee of 2s. 6d. a year, but the public generally appear to care little whether or not their dogs arc

rcgi::;tcred, and the result is that thousands of dogs can be seen roaming around the city. Some time ago I saw seventy-five dogs in one pen at tl1e King Edward Home for Lost Dogs waiting to be destroyed. The money so expended could be better lHilised.

:M:r. \V. -DAVIES: If the dogs were not admitted to that home they would be roaming around the streets ·and would be killed!

llfr. THO~fAS: Exactly, but if a high fee were imposed for the registration of dogs, the people would not bother to pay it for the common breeds, and there would not be such a large number of them. If a dog is worth ow·ning, one should be prepared to pay a reasonable sum for its registration. Dogs should not be permitted to roam the streets, and it should not be necessary to collect and destroy them at a cost of thousands of pouuds yearly, when the money could ·be used to benefit the sick children. To preYent the propag-ation of dogs. the registration fee should be higher. Stud dogs could be registered, but others should be sterilised in the same way as Alsatian dogs are now. Millions of sheep and cattle ai·e sterilised throughout the countr~', and why should not clogs be? The other day, :Mr. Hauptmann, the political commentator of the Sun, suggested that the license fee should be lOs. per annum on dogs, and that there should then be a weight licence of so much a lb. in addition. I do not agree with a weight licence, but I certainly approve of a higher license fee.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN (Puddington) [ 4.56] : I reg-ret that the :Minister representing- the :Minister for Social Services is not present to hear what I am about to say. I do·not think it right for him to be out of the Chamber when the department is being discussed, but that has happened on ever_y occasion that social legislation has been passed by this Parliament. The estimate discloses that an amount is •being set aside for officers in charge of the Food Relief Department The other evening the Premier said that he took the opportunity of defending the good name of his ,brother. Wl1ether he

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] 8ocial8erviccs. 1743

was right or wrong in his remarks, I commend the Premier for taking up the cudgels on behalf of his brother, who was not able to defend himself here. I claim a similar right to take up the cudg·els on behalf of my brother, who was dismissed from the Department of Social Services without being given any reason for his dismissal.

In 1931 inspectors were appointed to the Food ReliP-f Rnm~h of the Department of Labour and Industry, one of the appointees being my brother. \Vhen the I.ang Government went out of office, and the Stevens Government came in, many of those who had been appointed in 1931 were dismissed, while others were told to make application to the Public Service Board for positions. A committee, consisting of Mr. \Vitheriff and other members of the Department of l~abour and Industry, was appointed. It examined most of those applicants, and reinstated those it considered fit for the position, amongst whom was my brother, who continued his work as a food relief inspector. I can say, without boasting, that he did his work so well that he was placed in charge of the Leichhardt Food Relief District. At 5 minutes tl) 5 o'clock one da~·, without having had any warning, he was served with a notice to say that his services were no longer required, but no reason for that action was given to him. He was told to attend at the office where he would be given his back pay and a reference. When my brother told me, I :first of all went to see J\fr. Hawkins, the J\linister in charge. I told J\Ir. Hawkins: "I am not here as a member of Parliament, and I am not speaking to :you as a Minister of the Crown, but I am coming to you as man to man in defence of my brother." The Minister replied, "Whatever I can do I will do." I then outlined to the J\finister what had happened to my brother. J\fr. Hawkins said, "I did not know he was your brother, and I have no say in the dismissal from the department of any temporary emplo;yee of the public service . .As a matter of courtesy, the Under-Secretary always tells me when anyone is to be dismissed,

but I have no say, not even to be consulted. If a permanent employee of my department is to be dismissed, I, as the Ministerial head. am informed. I then take what steps are necessary. In this case, I would know only as a matter of courtesy on the part of the UnderSecretary. I did not know he was your brother. I have nothing against him." I then rang Mr. Harkness, the UnderSecretary, ancl nsked him to sec me, and he said he would. I told Mr. Harkness what I had said to the :i\Iinis: ter, that I had not come as a member of Parliament, but just as one person to another. J\fr. Harkness said to me, "J\fr. O'Sullivan, I have had no hand in the dismissal of your brother. First of all, the Public Service Board said that the Food Relief Department was over-staffed and that certain retrenchments would have to take place. I know nothing of the men emplo.,;y~d.· I sent the matter along to the Director of Government Relief and told him to make certain recommendations. He sent back certain recommendations in which he said that certain men would be dis- · missed. As Under-Secretary I signed it, and sent it to the ~finister, who sent it to the Public Service Board. They put it into operation. I had nothing whatever to do with it." First of all, Mr. Hawkins said he had nothing to do with it, and then J\fr. Harkness told me the same thing. I then went to see Mr. Treble, and he told me he had nothing to do with, and had nothing to do with the dismissal of my brother or the other four officers who were dismissed. "I will tell you now," said J\fr. Treble, "he was the best officer in the department, and I put up a case on his behalf." There are three officers concerned, the J\Iinister, the Under-Secretary, and J\fr. Treble. I said -to Mr. Treble, "If you have to retrench, is it not strange that a· man in charge of a depot who has given satisfactory service should be the first man dismissed~" ]\fr. Treble said, "Do not blame nic." I said, "\Vhom are we to blame? Is it a fai1~ thing that

[744 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Social Services.

a man should be put out of his employment without any chance of fmther employment at a moment's notice for something he did not do. If there was any .e'i"idence against him, then he should :be told about it. If his services were un!::atisfactory, he should be told about it, and not dismissed at :five minutes' notice." Each official concerned said that be had nothing to do with it. When my brother asked far a reference he received the following from the Director of Government Relief:

I desire to advise you that you com· . menced employment in the Department of Labour and Industry as an issuing officer <On the 27th February, 1931, and were taken <Over by the Government Relief Branch when the administration of food relief was trans· ferred eru:ly in 1933. You "·ere appointed :an officer in charge of the Leichhardt depot on the 27th January, 1933, and your ser· vices terminated on the 13th September, 1935.

During the period of your employment in the Go>ernment relief section you carried out the duties entrusted to you in n satisfactory manner. There is the reference which says that my brother was for eighteen months ~n charge of the Leichhardt Food Relief Depot. When he went there nobody knew how things were. He worked day nnd night to put the depot on a sound footing, and then he got the sack for nothing. The other men dismissed were J\Iessrs. Martin, Doyle, Sharp, and anQther man. :Martin was not an officer in charge, Trevor Doyle was officer in charge of the Manly district.

l\Ir. CAHILL: ~fartin was one of the most capable officers in the department!

Mr~ O'SULLIVAN: William Sharp was an inspector, a retmned soldier, with one leg. He was dismissed at five minutes' notice, the same as my brother. It was so great a shock to him that he went home and died in a fortnight. No cause of death was given by the doctor, who could not account for the man's death. No charge was laid against Sharp or the other men I have mentioned.

I will read a circular which. is used by the Food Relief Department. If the members of the Government parties stand for it, ~H I can say is that it is

a paltry matter for the department to usc this to dismiss. men. This notice is given to boys of 18, 19, and 20 years of age. Here is what they are told to do: Office of the Director of Government Relief.

(Food Relief.) Cotle of Instructions for O!fice1·s proceeding

to Depots indiviclually to check the .Activities ef the Investigating Office·r on 22nll iJ[ay, 1935.

(1) You should report to the depot not later than 9 a.m. and ask for the officer in charge.

(2) Hanel to him the attached authority authorising you to make inquiries at the depot .

(3) Ask him to indicate to you in writiu"' the following:- "'

(a) What time the investigating officer <lepartecl from the depot on the 22nd instant;

(b) what time he returned to the depot; (c) how he employecl Ius time whilst in

the depot. ( 4) Obtain from the officer in charge

of the depot the inspector's report book and daily sheet for Wednesday, 22nd instant.

( 5) Visit all residences as shown on the report sheet as having been visited by the investigating officer, and, in addition, those npplicnnts whom the investigating officer shows as out.

( 6) Referring to the persons whom the investigating officer visited on Wednesday, 22ncl instnnt, obtain from them the approximate time the investigating officer called ancl how long he stayed nt the house. If the persons concerned are out when you call, try to enquire from neighbours ns to whether the i.nves6gating officer culled on Wednesaay.

(7) In those cases where the investigating officer shows the people ns being out, enquire from them if they were out on the 22nd instant, and whether they were out all day or for what period. If the people are still out make similar enquiries "f1·om neighbours.

(8) Mnke sure that all the reports written in the inspector's. report book dated 22nd of this month appear on the dnily report sheet.. If they do not, visit those places also. ·

( 9) After visiting all houses, return to the depot and prepare a return showing the time it took you to visit the places aforementioned.

Fancy boys of 18, 19, and 20 years of age being asked to call at a house and find out whether an inspector from the Food Relief Department had called! If the person is not at borne, he has to inquire from neighbours whether the~· saw a food r~lief officer at the house

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] Social Services. 1745

next door. But that is not the worst feature. Let us assume, for the sake of .argument, that this is all right. Those .boys went out to the various depots .and did what they were told to do in thi2 order. They submitted their report io Mr. Treble or to some responsible ,officer, but the men concerned never :Saw what was contained in the report. During the following week from twenty· five to thirty of them received notice that their services would be no longer required. Not one of them was asked -whether any statement in the report was true. One man's papers were actually :marked "semi-dishonest". What is the meaning of that term? A. man can "€ither be' dishonest or honest, but I never .heard of a man being semi-dishonest. "These men were all dismissed on the reports that were submitted either to Mr. Trel:ile, or the Public Service Boarcl, .and not one of them was given an oppor· tunity to answer the charges that were made against him.

In my opening remarks I congratu·· latecl the Premier upon defending in this ·House the good name of his brother. I -claim a similar privilege. When I went to the 111:inister for Social Services, to the Chief Secretary, and the Uncler·secretary, I told them I did not come to them as a member of Parliament, but as man to man. I claimed that my ·brother did his work properly. He would not have been in charge of the food reli•of depot at Leichhardt for eighteen months if he had not clone it properly. To dismiss him at a moment's notice is not fair either to him or to the com· Jmmity generally. The injustice ought to be rectified. A man should at least be brought before the head of his de, ·partment and asked to answer any charge that is laid against him. If these dis· missals are political, I have no axe to grind. If the men were put off because they were engaged while Labour was in ·office, I am prepared to accept the position and put up with it. It is a long 1ane that has no turning; and the longP.r the lane the more dirt boxes there are to empty. The time will come when we will have the opiJOrtunity · tt) rectify the wrongs that have been

!5 s

done to men who never did wrong to ar.yone. If any charge is laid against these men they should be given the right to answer it. If there is no charge against them they should not have been dismissed. Even at this late hour, I ask the Minister to give these men the riglU to clear their names in the Food Relid Department of this State. I ask the :Thlinister to do this, even if some of them will not go back to the department, and I know two of them who will not.

Mr. \Y. D.A VIES (Illawarra) [5.14]: I congratulate the hon. member for Paddington upon putting up a case on behalf of his brother. lie has put up an unanswerable case, of which I hope the Minister will take notlce. Unfortunately, the :Thlinister for Social Services is not a member of this House and was

· not elected by the people. I say, deliberately, the :Thfinister in charge of Social Services should be a member of this House. Very often hon. members desire to mention cases, and all they are told by the Colonial Secretary is, "I will refer the matter to the JI.Iinister for Social Services." There are a large number of anomalies in connection with the distribution of food relief, and for this reason hon. members should have the right to put their questions direct to the Jl.finister in charge of the department.

I desire to address a few remarks about the Christmas distribution of relief. Numbers of people are looking forward to the distribution just prior to Christmas. During the last week-end a number of unemployed persons came to me and said that the officer in charge of the Labour Exchange had informed them that the full pay due to them would not be issued prior to tha Chri~tmas holiclnys, but that a certail! amount of it would be left over to be paid in January. I suppose that is donA. in case the;y make gluttons of themselve~. during the holidays, but I submit they should be paid in full. The Government should also be in a position to make :1

much more liberal allowance than has been made in t.he past.

1746 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] 8acial Services.

In connection with the distribution of blankets and clothing, I would poir.t out that Au,;tralia is supposed to be thi! largest wool-producing country in the world. \Ve have in this State a larg~· number of men who can weave cloth and manufacture blankets. :Many of these men are unemployed. It would be very easy to put those men into employment and give them work 'making blankets and .clothing for the unem · ployed. The same thing applies to the boot trade. At the present time thousands of people in this State are short of boots, while thousands of boot operatives are out of work. If the !Government were to set up a factory and employ all the men who are skilled in bootmaking·, we would provide work for them and, at the same time, supply boots to every person in the State who needs them. We export hu-ge quantities of hides, and we have in this State everything that is necessary for the manufacture of boots, yet thousands who need boots have not the money with which to purchase them, and thousands of men who can make boots have no employment. It is a disgrace to our business ability that such anomalies should exist.

Coming to the question of housing-. In my district large numbers of pcopl3 are being evicted from their homes because they cannot pay their rent. The department presided O\er by the )Iinister for Social Services says that it is impossible to do anything for these people until an eviction order has been executed. For instance, a person receives notice that he is to get out of his house. He gets into touch with the department and asks for assistance. He may haYe a family of five or six and no place in which they can shelter, but the department says, "We cannot assi;t you because an eviction order has not been issued against you." Is it necessary to place furniture on the pa,·cment before anything can be done for these unfortunate peop~e? WhcncYer I put the question to the responsible official I am met with the reply, "That is my instruction. It has been giYen to me, and I haYe to carQ' it out." The :.11an has to go to the cou:·t and an e"l"iction

order must ·be issued before anything can be done by the department. If that is done the man is given a month in which to clean up and gBt out. On getting in touch with the department I am told, "The oEly thing we can do is to let him hm·e some timber and iron with \\'hich to build a shack." That is. supposing he can obtuin the necessaJ:;}r land. Then it is nece;:sary to go to the Local Government authority and ask for permission to put up a shack. Frequently the local counCil says-and. rightly so-"We cannot allow this man to build a shack because shacks arc unsightly and shou~d not be permitted· ill! a civilised community." I af!,Tee with: that sentiment, and readily understand the viewpoint of councils which do not. want shacks in their municipalities. That is all right from their point -of view, but what are these poor 'unfortunate people to do? In some cases the· council agrees to allow shacks to beerected, and a few uprights, bags, which haYe to be sewn together, and some iron, are pro,·ided. Surely this State should be able to provide some -bettershelter for the unemployed. We have any quantity of timber, iron, and othernecessary building material. Moreover, there are many unemployed men capable of erecting houses, yet all we dois to send these shelterless families wme iron, a few uprights, and some bags for the purpose of building shelters.

In my district hundreds of people are in that position. Not a week passes but some family is forced to leave its. home and build a shack for shelter. Such a state of affairs would not be tolerated, even in the remotest districts of liexico. %Iy duty is to bring the ma ttcr under the notice of the Minister b(!eause better shelter for the unfortunate unemployed is urgently necessary. The unemployed Housing Trust has done good work, but it is not able to cope "·ith the demand for houses. Jl.{r. Hob:J has done his best to grapple with the problem, which I admit is a very real o::te, but that gentleman has insufficient money. Two hundred thouwnd pounds was allocated to the trust

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] Social Services.

for the purpose of providing shelters for the unemployed, but what lS

£200,000. for that work~ l\fr. FoSTEH: In many cases suitable

land is not available! Mr. W. DAVIES: Perhaps not. In

\ariably the question is asked, "Can you provide the land~" Does not the Minister realise that a. man in destitute circumstances is not in a position to purchase land, and if he cannot do so he is unable to find shelter. That is the position. I trust that the :Minister will bring my remarks under the notice of the l\£inister for Social Services, the Hon. l\{r. Hawkins, and tell him that something must be clone to provide adequate shelter for these people. In practically every country huge housing schemes are being carried out. During recent years millions of pounds have ·been spent in Great Britain in lJl·oviding homes for the people-not only fo1' the unemployed, but for the employed as well. That policy is being adopted in Germany, and besides absorbing many unemployed, because it provides v:ork for them, it enables unfortunate families to o-btain suitable housing accommodation. No family should be compelled to find shelter in an old shed or a motor garage. Hundreds of persons in my electorate are living in that way, and as many as thTee. and four families are· accommodated in one house. That should not be necessary in a civilised community.

1fr. J Al\:I:ES :McGIRR (Banksto>vn) [ 5.33] : Like the hon. member for Illawarra I regret that the Minister now in charge of the Committee is not the :Minister charged with the administTation and Tesponsibility of social serYices. The motive for that is difficult to understand. I Tealise that the Colonial Secretary is here to accept his responsibility as 1v[inister ·in charge of his department, but it seems to have l:een a rather cunning act on the part

·of the Government to appoint to the responsi·ble position of l\finister for Social Services a gentleman who is not a member of this House. Before the general· elections we were told that the Legislative Assembly was a deliberative

Chamber attd that in the new Parliament there would be full and free discussion of all li).easures brought down by the Government. Because the Minister for Social Services is not a mem·ber of this House we have no adeqtiate means of criticising his policy. He is not here to be questioned, which besides . being unsatisfactory to hon. members must be unsatisfactory to himself as well as to the people concerned. As member for Bankstown I represent a goodly number of unemployed, and I assure the Minister that their position has never 'been more serious than it is to-da;y. At an impressionable age I read in a history of the economic conditions in England many years ago that at that period m the East Erid of London grown men and women, ate, drank and slept together. Bec':luse of those conditions practically a new '!:ace of people had sprung up in England, \\~0 were entirely unknown to the English world. It was said that in the East End of London the race was suffering mentally and physically, ~md that a low standard of human being had developed entirely due to these conditions. We, in Australia, who had no experience of English conditions at that time, could hardly . visualise such conditions. Twenty years ago if we had been told that we ourselves would witness these things in this country we would not have believed it.

In my electorate there are groups of from four to eight grown men and women with their families, some of ~1dult age, who, enjoying the hospitality of this truly Christian-Stevens' Government, have been given a few uprights, some iron and cornsacks, to make homes. for themselves. They are living in single· rooms, in which they have to eat ancl sleep. If they want to go to the kitchen they have merely to turn round to one of the corners of the room; that is where they have to do their cooking. This is all the assistance this Christian Government is giving to Australian people in the twentieth century. We were told that in England, having seen people suffering in the manner I have indicated years ago, the authorities to-da:y~ are

1748 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Social Se1·vices.

spending millions in providing proper habitations. England has a population of about 50,000,000 people. Its .leading city has a population of twelve or fourteen millions. Australia is far bigger than Britain; the principal city in Australia holds fewer than two millions. It has all manner of modern facilities, it has electric trains, lighting services, \mter and sewerage, and so forth. The Government compels people in necessitous circumstances to live in the congested areas of the city under the conditions I have described, when it could very easily find means for sending them out into the fresh air of the country.

'Ve are not masters of our destinies, under the rule of the Stevens' Government. ·we do not know what the future holds for us. The Government is driv·ing people to distraction. During the week-end I travelled into the wheat belt and was told that the country· was so fertile that it_ was producing twelve and even fourteen bags of wheat to the acre. Yet in my electorate people have not ·enoug·h food to eat. If what has happened in days gone by should be re}Jeated and some disaster, like a mice }Jlague, occurs in the country, it will mean that millions of busheh of wheat will be destroyed. Yet, while all this food is there many of our residents, together with their children, have not sufficient to eat; those children are suffering because they canot get necessities to •keep them in proper health. I have repeatedly raised in this House the question of special foods for children. Doctors in my electorate have got out of their beds in the middle of the night to examine children of my constituents who are suffering from boils, sores and rickets in the worst form-brought about entirely by the lack of proper food. lt is called to-day "malnutrition," when tlte real definition is "starvation." That svrch a thing is possible in this land 'which,. as I have said, produces up to fo'urteeri-'bags of wheat to the acre,

'together -with milk, fruit and any -quantity of green vegetables which are _st> necessary to these children, is almost .past belief.

The .problem to a large extent is caused by an absence of .means fcir exchanging these goods and passing them from the hands of the producer ·into the hands of the would-be consumers. Because of this, the producer can get no price at all for his products, and the consumer is utterly unable to obtain them, even though his children may be starving for lack of the1i1. Hon. members will :find

- that on the Estimates for 1933-34 a sum of £1,467,953 was provided for food relief, whereas, in the Estimates for 1934-35, the amount is only £1,100,000. Green vegetables, milk, eggs, and other commodities will not be available for starving children to the same extent as formerl,y. The amount to be spent on food relief has been reduced by over a quarter of a million pounds. Hon. members will probably be told by the Premier, in his glib way, that the difference in the vote is due to the fact that the Government has found employment for so many people.

There is a classification of men on food relief known as "B 12," which is used to describe a man with a wife and twelve children, or fourteen altogether in the family. If their income is £7 5s. fortnightly they are· not entitled to receive food relief. The Premier has told people, referring to wages differences, that the courts and the judiciary of this country are sacrosanct. Hon. members must not raise their voices in Parliament regarding details of the fixation of standards of living by the tribunals. It is men like the Premier who are bringing about in this country a state of affairs that has been known in other countries; men are being driven tc. extremities. This is reflected in my electorate in a very startling manner. Three years ago the vote recorded for the Communist party in my electorate was 290. After three years of the Stevens Government the vote cast for the Com~ munist party in that same electorate-and it was not cast at my expense-increased from 290 to over 1000. I say that the Premier and the Nationalists and United Australia parties, through their actions in those three years, were responsible for organising that Communist vote

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] Social Services. 1749

and bringing about this big increase in Communist adherents. This Government is forcing people into the ranks of extremists. They will bring about a loss of confidence, and people will become antagonistic to the courts whose determinations appear to be so flagrantly unjust. On th1' one hand, they assist those in goop circumstances and, as was mentioned l!)'st night, enable some companies while aCting within the law, to increase thei..r capital from £7,000,000 to £14,000,000.

The CnAIR~IAX : Order ! The hon. member may not discuss that subject on this estimate.

M1r. J A....'\:IES McGIRR: J do n<>t intend to debate the subject, but am merely pointing out that, while the courts have enabled a large company to double its profits and make £7,000,000 within a few years, they class as a malefactor a worker who, endeavouring to eal'n a few additional shillings a week, appears to be perpetrating a fraud, and have him cast into Long Bay, his family being literally allowed to starve, the Government providing it with only 8s. 9d. a week while the breadwinner is in gaol. There is a growing suspicion among the community concerning the justness of such actions, and the time is fast approaching when the mask of hypocrisy will be torn from the activities of these tribunals, and the people will demand greater considerations than they are now receiving. In my district there is a returned soldier, secretary to a returned soldiers' organisation, who, a comparatively few years ago, was urged, among others, to enlist and help to make this country "safe for democracy," being promised that on his return Australia would not be able to do enough for him. To-day that ma·n has a wife and :five or six children, and, because one of his children earns a small amount which makes the total family income slightly in excess of that stipulated in the permissible income regulation, that man is denied the right to receive food relief. That, apparently, is what he fought for. I ask bon. members opposite if they think he would have enlisted had he know·n before the war that this was to

happen in the future? Should Australia again be involved in war, these men will think for themselves and act in the light of the treatment J;lleted out to them during the last three or four years.

l\fr. GOLLAN: I move: That the question be now put.

The Committee divided. Ayes, 41; noes, 25; majority, 1!3.

Ball,R. 'T. Bate, H. J. Bennett, C. E. Brown, M. Bruxner, Lt.-Col. Budd, A. E. Buttenshaw, E. A. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. Elliott, H. 0. Fitzsimons, H. P. • Fleck, Dr. Foster, W. F. Fl'ith, W. Gollan, G. C. Howarth, W. A. H. Kilpatrick, M. Lawson, J. A. Lloyd, S. A. Main, H.

AYES. Mail:, A. Martin, L. 0. MoYerly, A. H. Ness, J. T. Primrose, II. L. Reid, A. E. Reid, J. T. Ross, J. C. Sanders, E. L. Shand, Major Sinclair, C. A. Solomon, E. S. Tonking, A. U. Vincent, R. S. Waddell, J. \V. Wade, B. M. \Vea'l'er, R. W. D. Yeo,A.W.

Tellers, Richarc1son, A. Walker, R. B.

NOES.

Baddeley, J. :M:. Lang, J. T. Booth, G. ::'IIcGirr, James Burke, Frank McKell, W. J. Cahill, J. J. ::'lfatthe''~'S, C. H. Cameron, R. O'Sullivan, M. Carlton, W. J. Quirk, J. Clyne, D. Stanley, F. Davidson, M. A. Sweeney, J. T. Davies, W. Tonge, A. Hawkins, F. H. Tully, J. :1\f. Heffron, R. J. Tellers, Ho1·sington, E. M. Arthur, J. G. Kelly, C. A. Shannon, T. J.

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Question-That the vote be :reduced by £1-put. The Committee divided:

Ayes, 25; noes, 43; majority, 18.

Arthur, J. G. Baddeley, J. M. Booth, G. Burke, Frank Cahill, J. J. Cameron, R. Carlton, W. J. Clyne, D. Davic1son. M.A. Davies, W.

AYES.

Hawkins, F. H. Heffron, R. J. Horsington, E. M. Lang, J. T. McGirr, James McKell, W. J. O'Sullivan, M. Quirk, J. Shannon, T. J. Stanley, F. ' i

1750 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Depa1·tment of Health.

Swee:::ey, J. T. rrongc, A. Tully, J. M.

Tellers, Kelly, C. A. Matthews, C. H.

NOES.

Ball, R. T. Bate, H. J. Brown, M. Bruxner, Lt.-Col. Budd, A. E. Buttenshaw, E. A. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Capt. Drummond, D. H. Elliott, H. 0. Fitzsimons, H. P. )!'leek, Dr. Foster, VV. F. Frith, W. Gollan, G. C. Howarth, "\V. A. H. Jackson, J. Kilpatrick, M. Lawson, J. A. Lloyd, S. A. Main, H. Mair, A.

Martin, L. 0. Morton, M. F. Movedy, A. H.

. Ness, J.T. Primrose, H. L. Reid, A. E. Reid, J. T. Reid, Major Richardson, A. Ross, J. C. Sanders, E. L. Shand, Major Sinclair, C. A.

·Tanking, A. U. Vincent, R. S. Waddell, J. W. Wade, B. l\1. \Valker, R. B. \Veaver, R W. D.

Te/.lers, Bennett, C. E. Solomon, E. S.

Question so resolved in the negative. Amendment negatived. Original question proposed.

1\Ir. GOLJ_,Al'f: I move: That the question be now put. The Committee divided: Ayes, 42; noes, 25; majority, 17.

AYES.

Ball, R. T. Bate, H. J. Bennett, C. E. Br·own, JI.L Brmi:ner, Lt.-Col. 'Budd, A. E. 'Buttenshaw, E. A. ·Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. Fleck, Dr. Frith, W. Golilfinch, Sir Philip Gollan, G. C. Howarth. W. A. H. ·.rackson, J. Lee, J. R. Lloyd, Bri15.-Gen. Lloyd, S. A. Main, H. Mair. A. Martin, L. 0.

Art.hnr, J. G. Baddeley, J. M. Booth, G. :8urke, Frank Cameron. R. Carlton. W. J. Clyne, D.

l1.1orton, JI.I. F. Moverly, A. H. Ness, J.T. Primrose, H. L. Reid, A. E. Reid, J. T. R-ichardson, A. Sanders, E. L. Shand, Major Sinclair, C. A. Solomon, E. S. Tanking, A. U. Vincent,.R. S. \Vaddell, J. W. Wade, B. M. ·walker, R. B. Weaver, R. W. D. Yeo,A.W.

Tellers, Elliott, H. 0. Lawson, J. A.

NOES.

Davidson, M.A. D:wies, W. Hawldns, F. H. Heffron, ·R. J. Horsington, E. M. Kelly, C. A. Lang, J. T.

McGin, James Stanley, F. McKell, W. J. Sweeney, J. T. Matthews, C. H. Tully, J. M. O'Sullivan, lVI. Tellers, Quirk, J. Cahill, J. J. Shannon,T.J. Tonge,A.

Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question-That the vote be agreed·

to-put. The Committee divided: Ayes, 42; noes, 25; majority, 17.

AYES.

Ball, R. T. Bate, H. J. Bennett, C. E. Brown, M. Bruxner, Lt.-Col. Buehl, A. E. Buttenshaw, E. A. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Capt. Dn1mmond, D. H. Elliott, H. 0. Fleck, Dr. Goldfinch, Sir Philip Gollan, G. C. HowaJ;th, W. A. H. Jackson, J. Lawson, J. A. Lee, J. R. Lloyd, Brig.-Gen. Lloyd, S. A. Main, H. Mair, A.

Martin, L. 0. JI.Iorton, M. F. :J\'[on;rly, A. H. Ness, J. T. Reid, A. E. Reid, J. 'l'. Richardson, A. Sanders, E. L. Shand, Major Sinclair, C. A. Solomon, E. S. Tanking, A. U. Vincent, R. S. Waddell, J. W. \Vac1e, B. M. W alkei-, R. B. Weaver, R. W. D. Yeo, A. W.

Tellers, Frith, IV. Primrose, H. L.

NOES.

Baddeley, J. M. McGirr, James Bmke, Frank McKell, \V. J. Cahill, J. J. Mathm>s, C. H. Cameron, R. O'Sullivan, M. Carlton, W. J. Quirk, J. Clyne, D. Shannon, T. J. Davidson, M.A. Stanley, F. Davies, W. Sweeney, J. T. Hawkins. P. H. Ton15e, A. Heffron, R. J. Tully, J. JI.L Horsin~ton, E. M. Teller::, Kelly, C. A. Arthur. J. G. Lang, J. •r. Booth, G.

Question so resolved in the affirmative. Vote agreed to. rThe Chairman left the chair at 6.6 p.m.

Tlze Co'mmittee resumecl at 7.30 p.m.l

MINiSTER FQR PUBLIC R~AI.T!!.

Proposed vote, £1,671,969.

:M:r. TONGE (Canterbury [7.30]: This year's vote is only £70,000 more than was spent oi1 public health during the last financial year. Notwithstanding the splendid work that is being done •by hospital committees

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] De1Ja1'tment of Health. 1751

throughout New South \lil ales, and especially the excellent work of the womenfolk, the Government, ·sooner or later, will have to take over the hospitals of the State and run them as Government institutions. Wonderful work has ·been done on a voluntary basis and thousands of pounds have been raised but, nevertheless, the hospitals ·aTe as much a function of the Government us arc the Police Dep:ntment, the 1he brigades, and other necessary ser-vices. The time is fast approaching when the hospitals of the State will have to be run in the same way as the Prince Henry Hospital, at Little Bay.

Mr. W. F. M. H.oss: Does the hon. member mean country hospitals, too~

:Mr. TONGE: All hospitals. Every 'hospital to-day has to come to the Gov<ermnent with regard to buildings and additions. The country hospitals are forced through financial circumstances to work the staffs long hours and under unfair conditions. They receive miser-able wages on account of the lack of funds. The Government is at present -controlling mental hospitals, and it will not :be long before the general hospitals will be under the control of the Gov-ernment.

Jl.fr. W. F. l\L Ross: Would not the }~on. member favour local boards~

Mr. TONGE: There could be local boards, with medical superintendents and inspections from the Hospitals Commission.

l\fr. W. F. l\:L Ross: Who would appoint those boards?

Jl.fr. TONGE: That is a matter for the consideration of the l\finister. There will be subscribers to the hospitals, for there will still be a lot to do for the comfort and wellbeing of the patients that could not ·be provided by the Government. I am sure that would be done by people in all centres.

· These subscribers to the hospitals could have their representatives on the advisory board.

Mr. W. F. M. Ross: What is wrong with the present local administration~

Jl.fr. TONGE: The question of finance is one thing. Every hospital is continually making appeals for funds.

As I said before, it is as much the function of the Government to control hospitals as it is to control the fire brigade. I think, too, the ambulance services should be brought under the direct control of the Government. It may be said that the doctors would not give their services if hospitals were under Government control. I think they would ·be only too willing to give their serYices if H was provided that no doctor could go out into private practice until he had put in a certain time at a hospital. Uany doctors will be only too pleased to l:ecome honorary surgeons at public hospitals, and thus gain valuable experience. In addition to the voluntary doctors the Government would have to appoint doctors to the hospitals, the same as is done at the Prince Henry Hospital.

It has always been thought that eYery big ho::pital had a numcer of emergency ·beds, :ye1; the other day at the St. George District Hospital there wa.; the spectacle of an urgent accident case being taken from there to another hospital. At the same time there was in the St. George Distri8t Hospital an empty ward that could have accommodated fifty or sixty patients. There is something wrong there, and I was pleased to hear the l\finiater my that the Hospitals Commission will insist on a certain number of emergency beds for accident cases. That should be mandatory on all hospitals. The Jl.finister further stated that inquiries would be made into the matter. Inquiries are often made when a patient dies, and certain conclusions are arrived at, but it never happens, or it has not happened in the past, that anything has occurred to the doctors, the nursing staff or anyone else responsible.

I remember that at the Prince Henry Hospital, previously known as the Coast Hospital, when a certain accident case came in the doctor on duty was playing tennis, and he continued to play tennis until the game was finished, ·before he attended to the patient. A doctor who does that ought to be bundled out of the staff of the hospital, whoever he is. There is too much of

1752 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.) DepartJ>wnt of Health.

this so-called "professional etiquette" which keeps members of the medical profession from getting a hustle on in accident cases. Inquiries have been held either by the hospital board concerned or by the Hospitals Commission, and in some cases at the instigation of the Minister himself, but if a medical man is involved, invariably nothing comes out of the inquiry.

Mr. FITZSI:.\fONS: That was not the case at the South Sydney Hospital recently!

Mr. TONGE: That was an exception. As the Minister knows, for years past there have been inquiries, but nothing has been done.

I wish now to refer to accident cases. Compensation cases are taken to public hospitals, but unless the patient is practically dying he will not be admitted if it is known that it is a compensation case. The British Medical Association, being a strong organisation, has a certain amount of influence in hospital administration, and it has used that influence in the direction of getting compens~•tion cases referred to private doctors so that the lat.ter might obtain fees. I have no objection to doctors being paid fees in compensation cases, but why should the life of the patient b.e imperilled, as it is in some cases, and why should he be sent away to a private hospital or the surgery of a private doctor so that the doctor may obtain the £2:) that is allowed under the Compensation Act for medical services? Compensation cases should be admitted at once to

.public hospitals. If they are known to be compensation cases there is nothing to stop the hospital authorities from putting them into intermediate ward'l in which case the medical man can obtain his fees. But the lives of patients should not be jeopardised, and they should not have unnecessary suffering inflicted upon them just because they may be compensation cases. The Minister might. consider the advisability of getting the E:ospitals Commisfilion to inc

-struct every hospital to admit .compen-sation cases in the circumstances I hav~ meniioned:

~Ir. FITZSDIONS: We have already don~ that!

1-ir. TONGE: I am very pleased tO' hear it. It must have been a recent instruction.

Mr. FITzsnroxs: We have directed them to classify compensation cases aw intermediate cases!

Mr. TONGE: It is a thing that was needed. Coming to the mental hospitals, I note from the Estimates that there is to be an increase of fifty pel"" sons in the staff during· the present finan.cial year. Last year there were-701 attendants. This financial year the· number has been increased to 724. Thenumber of nurses have been increased from 755 to 7"77, while the outside staff has been increased from 4i7 to 482. I submit there should have been a considerably greater increase in the outsidestaff. The majority of mental patientscan only be kept occupied with manuaf work, and at the present time the outside staffs of these hospitals are very small. The 11:1inister should considerthe advisability of considerably increas~ ing the outside staff so that patient> may be kept occupied. At Callan Park or Gladesville dozens of mental patients may be seen idling their time within enclosed walls or yards. A very small percentage of the patients are occupie<f in gardening and other manual work in the outer grounds. Doctors will telT yon that these people should be kept occupied, wherever practicable, for thelongc,st possible time during the day_ The whole of the staffs at our mentat hospitals are undermanned, probably dueto finance. Still, this is an important. matter, and I hope that during the remainder of the present financial yearthe }.£inister will do something toward~ further increasing both inside and outside staffs by appointing additional male' attendants and nurses.

The Minister might also consider· establi<'hing mental hospitals throug·hout. the .country, similar to the institution at Orange. It is very hard on the rela~ tives that when a member of a family

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.~ Department of Health. 1753

becomes mentally deranged he should be brought hundreds of miles to Sydney and put into one of the metropolitan institutions. The Minister might do something in this direction, not only in the interest of the patients, but also of their relatives. The same remarks apply to homes for the indigent, aged, and infirm. In most cases these people are brought to the city. :Many men and women who have lived for years in the State, in the evening of their lives, arc taken from the country district in which they have friends and from the environment in which they have lived, and brought to Sydney and placed in a metropolitan institution. I ask the Jl.r[inister to consider the advisability of establishing mental hospitals, and also institutions for the indigent, aged, and infirm, throughout the country.

During this session the Jl.finister, in answer to a question, referred to the £1,000 that has been spent by the Department of Social l::lervices upon mille It would be a good thing if the Government could spend £100,000 a year upon milk. If we spent more of the public money in building up the younger generation, giving them milk and oth8r health foods, we should have to spel!d less upon our hospitals when they grew up. In passing, I may say that people in poor circumstances who reside in the city and suburbs are under a great obligation to the Food for Ba·bies Fund. Doctors have, in good faith, given certificates for special food for children, and then the department has turned them down. As a result of that action many children are to-day suffering from malnutrition, and th~ hospitals, especially the children's wards, are overcrowded. It would ·be better if the Government spent a larger sum for the purpose of providing the children with milk, because in that event there would probably be less work for the hospitals to do in time to come. I admit that the Minister for Health takes a great interest in the work of his department. Probably, hon. members generally give him credit for. the. work he has done, but there are some features of policy and administration that should be changed.

As soon as possible the ll:finister should consider the advisableness of providinginstitutions in the country for the treatment of the mentally-afflicted, and for the care of the aged and infirm, so that those unfortunate persons need not travel to Sydney, where the environment is so different from what most of them have been used to. I am disappointed at the small increase of £70,000 provided by the Government fo1· public health purposes.

Mr. SWEENEY (Bulli) [7.52] : The unemployed can see no provision in the Budget which is likely to materially relieve them of the difficult conditionsundelwhich they l1ave lived during the hst four or five years. I see no provision fortheir employment on public or otherworks, as a result of which they might be able to earn sufficient money t(~ obtain the medical treatment that so many of them need. The Department ~f Public Health is one of the most important, and I have a complaint to make regarding the supply of spectacles t<> persons who cannot afford to pay the ordinary price for them. Many of the unemployed have been given medicai certificates stating that their health is impaired because of want of spectacles. Frequently, when they go to the authorities and ask for their spectacles, they are told that it will be four or five. months before they can get them. The latest a;pplicants have been told that they cannot expect to receive spectacles for at least six months. I have continually written to the department pointing out the seriousness of this delay~ and I have received replies stating that every possible consideration is beinggiven the applicants, and that the department is doing its best to meet require-· ments. A week or two ago a gentleman living in the metropolitan area calledl on me to complain . that although tw<> weeks previously he had made application for spectacles he had not since heard an.ything about the matter. I told him that he would be lucky if he heard anything during the next two months, and I then introduced him to the member of Parliament who represents the constituency in which he lives. To-day this man showed .

l754 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Depa1'tment of Health.

me a letter from the department to the effect that the spectacles would be supplied to-day, ,,·l!ich is four weeks from the time of his sending in his application. It seems strange that one of my constituents should have to wait at least four months to be supplied with spectacles, while another hon. member's constituent can get his glasses within a month. Why should there be differential treatment between persons living in the metropolitan area and in the country districts?

I now desire to refer to dental treatment for necessitous persons. While in that regard there has been some improvement in my electorate, two dental clinics having been established, we have many persons on the dole who have no means of attending the clinics, except "per foot." [have made application to the authorities for the provision of transport facilities for these persons, but so far without success, and in at least one case the applicant died before he could receive dental treatment, thereby relieving the State of its responsibility in so far as he was concerned. l\fuch delay has occurred in the issue of railway passes to people urgently in need of medical treatment in the city. Frequently·doctors who recommend these persons to go to Sydney for speci~l treatment cannot definitely say when they ~>.'ill be called upon to attend. Perhaps only a day or two's notice can be given, and then it may be too late to obtain a pass. A man who finds it necessary to leave his home town at 9 o'clock in the morning may be told that he cannot get a pass until half-past 11, so that he has to remain at home or depend upon friends to transport him to the city. That has happened more than once to persons in the electorate of Bulli. It is the police upon whom the department calls for reports on the condition of patients, and I .cannot understand why the department cannot give the 'sergeant of police authority to issue passes after he has C.'l:

amined the applicants, and certified that they should receive them.

I come now to the remuneration paid medical men for their professional attendance on the unemployed. I am advised .by the doctors that they cannot avail

themselves of the offers made. As hon. members know, when a doctor receives a call from some unemployed family, or from anybody else, which may be an urgent one, his attendance is expected without undue delay. If the doctors had to wait to make the inquiries that were necessary, if they wished to avail themselves of this Government remuneration, there would pro'bably be no need for their attendance at all, because the patient would, in all probability, have crossed the border. Doctors are called upon to give certificates to the unemplo;yed for many purposes, for which they get no remuneration. People are very loth, in a number of cases, to approach a doctor, even when it is necessary to obtain medical certificates, because they know they are not in a position to pay him.

The same thing applies to medical attention. I have no hesitation in saying that child life has ·been lost because of the fact that parents were ashamed to call in a doctor,. since they had no money; and when they were forced to do so it was too late, and the child had passed out. I ask the Minister to look into this matter. I have nothing whatever to say against the doctors, ·because I know, from experience, what the doctors in that district have done. Doctors cannot ·be expected, any more than others, to do work of the State without any remuneration. I know of one case in particular. A man and his wife were on food relief. The man was suddenly rushed to hospital, and underwent a most serious operation, which left him unable to work, and an invalid for at least six months. When he was discharged from the hospital it was necessary that· he should obtain medicine, which would cost him 4s. 6d. a week. He was not in a position to find 4s. 6d. a week, so he had either to borrow it from friends, or go without the medicine. I made an application to the department on his behalf, and was told that, if he applied to the local hospital the medicine would be supplied to him. I was advised that his wife did apply, but that they received no response whatever from the hospital.

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] Department of Health. 1755

It i.:; quite useless for the Government to el·ect hospitals and clinics if there are no means of transporting people to these hospitals and clinics, when they arc not able to walb:. I am prepared to believe that the present Minister, if he is allowed, will .be willing to carry out the reforms I have sugg·ested, unless, he is fearful of meeting the same fate at his predecessor.

ltir. LANG (Auburn) [8.6] : I shall be very brief. I want to refer to the fact that there have 'been one or two escapes from institutions around the Parramatta district. I refer to the mental hospital, in particular. These escapes have caused a good deal of concern in the districts surrounding Parramatta. The local paper, the Oumbe1'land A1'gus, recently made some very pertinent remarks con- _ cerning these escapes, and, if I remember correctly, laid the blame at the door of the department over which the :Minister for. Health presides. It suggested that these escapes would not occur if there were sufficient attendants at the institution. The fault then, is that the Government is not supplying sufficient nurses and attendants at those institutions, even to make sure that the inmates shall not be allowed to escape and remain at large. If there is not a sufficient staff to ensure that, it can be taken for granted that there are not sufficient nurses to do the ordinary nursing work of the institution. That, in brief, is the very plain statement made by the Oumbedand A 1·gus. The Government is to blame. It has cheapened wages and cheapened the cost of running these institutions ·by cutting down the numbers of nurses and attendants. The Minister must know of the incidents I have just mentioned. I should like him to say, a word or two as to why these escapes were permitted, and what remedies the department proposes to take to prevent such occurrences in the future.

There is another matter about which I want to talk to the ltiinister personally; I also spoke about it to his predecessor. It follows a vicious political attack upon me. I have represented the electorate of Auburn ever since it has

been an electorate. I represented originally !he Granville electorate, and I have also represented, in this Parliament, the Pnrramatta electorate, under proportional representation. Right down the years, in the case of the institutions at I,iclcombe and Newington, candidates for Parliament were always allowed free access and means of addressing their constituents, at those institutions. Ever since Federation I have been going to those institutions, addressing the electors, and canvassing them, on behalf of the Federal candidature of members of the Labour party. There never was the slightest objection to anv candidate doing so. The inmates of" those institutions had no vote for State members

· in those days.· ltiembers and candidates who wished to address them, were given free access, and also the use of the hall. The only condition imposed was that we hr.cl to make our own arrangements as to what time was suitable, as between the different candidates. It was just a question o:E whether one candidate's supporters should go there at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and another candidate's supporters at 7 o'clock in the evening, and so forth. The only time a clash would occur would be on the night before the election, and that was settled amicably. A Labour administration made provision for the inmates of these institutions to have a . vote, but its successors in office took rt

vin-:1ictive stand against me. I go so far as to charge the Govemment with attempting to manipulate the vote of those inmates by preventing me, as a candidate, from canvassing them. I appronched the officials of tha institutions, who declared that, acting on the instruction of the Minister in charge of the department, they would not allow any candidate to enter. I approached the :Min·ister, then the hon. member for Neutral Bay, and, as is customary with all llf.inisters on such occasions, he wa'S friendly, and almost gave the impression that he would go out of his way to do me a.good turn. When there is no escape from taking definite action Ministers delegate their powers, and one is told

1756 Est-imates: [ASSEMBLY.] Depa1·tment of Health.

that an instruction has been received that such and such a thing cannot be done.

During the last election campaign I approached the present llfinister for 'Health and asked that I should be granted the same rig·hts as those that had prevailed until the Stevens Government assumed office. Like his predecessor, the Minister spoke to me nicely over the telephone, and I took it for granted that I was to be given what had been the customary treatment. I was later informed that instructions had been issued that candidates would not be permitted to enter those institutions, and must stay outside the gates. The•·-; are hundreds of inmates in those institutions, and anyone is making a mistake who has the temerity to say that they are .composed only of derelicts. At the moment one of their number is an exMinister, and another an ex-member of the Legislative Council. Among the inmates are men who understand politics; men of all professions who have occupied all sorts of important positions. Some hon. mem!bers ha,·e a wrong conception on the fmbject. Young men may be found there who, through illness or disability, are precluded from making their livelihood outside, but who are as intelligent as any hon. member in this Chamber. They cast their votes according to their opinions, and the divergence of view of political tho11ght is just as great there as it is outside. By no means do they all cast votes in favour of Labour.

I treat the action of the Government against me with contempt; but a principle is involved. I am the leader of the Labour party in this Parliament, and the Labour candidate for the Auburn electorate, and I am in duty bolmd to see that the rights of a Labour candidate are not interfered with. Though I personally had not an opportunity to go to that institution and audress meetings during the campaign I could have done so on the last night, but was denied the right of speaking to my supporters. The reason should be obvious to hon. members. This Government

prevents canvassers of the Labour party from attending polling booths in New South IV ales to act as scrutineers, and see that the work is done properly. I object to that practice. The Government has interfered with the rights of the leader of the Labour party in New South Wales in a way that is unprecedented in 11ny other British community. It has gone too far, and been too vindictive. Among other things it appointed a redistribution commissioner, who removed from the Auburn electorate a compact portion, the voters of which cast a majority number of votes in favour of a Labour candidate, and added it to another straggling part, down near Strathfield, the votes from which were mainly adverse to Labour. In addition the Government did all it could to preprevent a Labour candidate from having entry to these institutions, while it enabled information to be supplied to my opponent. It is not fair or right to give the manager or other officer in the~,.. institutions the right to say who shalT or shall not be on the electoral roll, and to act as scrutineer during an election.

From what I was told by the present Minister for Health I took it for granted that he was going to see that all candidates would be admitted and given a~1 equ:-tl opportunity. Had that been done it would have been gre::ttly to the advantage of my opponent, because he wonld have been able to address the inmates personally, whereas I could no': have done that, because I was in another part of the State. However, when it was desired to present the case for Labour the gates were closed, and the inm11tes of the institution had to press against the bars of the gates in order to listen to the address that was given from outside, just as if they were prisoners.

Brigadier-Gen. LLOYD: Were any candidates allowed to address them from inside the institution?

Mr. LANG: It is said that a certain number of meetings would be allowed normally, but I addressed none, becau"se

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] De11aTt?nent of Health. 175.7

I objected to the arrangements made. I claim that I have the rig·ht to enter these institutions and to address my constituents.

Brigadier-Gen. LLOYD : Has the ho'n. member been denied that right?

Mr. LANG: I understand that I have. Any hon. member has the right to address a meeting of 700 voters in his constituency.

BrigadiRr-<1en. LLOYD: I understand that at these institutions a certain number of meetings are allowed !

}.fr. LANG: I understand that the~· are not. I claim the right to address my constituents if I feel it my duty to do so. I do not claim the rigpt to address a meeting in these institutions at any hour of the day or night, but I submit that if I 'notify the officials that I intend to address a meeting in the institution on a certain clay in a certain month, I should not be debarred from doing so. No official would dare to deny me that right unless he were so in· structed by the Government. The UnderSecretary, }.fr. Harkness, would not dream of denying me that right, and before this Government came into office such a thing would never have entered his mind. I shall continue to fight this injustice.

Mr. JACKSON: We believe that! }.fr. LANG: I ask the hon. member to

put aside his political views and to support another hon. member who has been unjustly treated. I am a member of Parliament, and the representative of as many constituents as any other member. I have been the representative of the Auburn confstituency for many years without a break. At one time the inmates of these institutions had no vote, but I eventually succeeded in having that right given to them. As a protest against the treatment that I have re· ceived in connection with these institutions, I move:

That the vote be reclucecl by £1.

Mr. FITZSIMONS (Lane Cove), :Minister for Health [8.25] : The hon. member for Auburn, with his usual flair for misinterpreting positions and truths,

has on this occasion again treated hon. members ,to a dissertation that is not accurate or fair.

Mr. L\XG : What I have said is true! Mr. FITZSIMONS: The hon. mem

ber for Neutral Bay, my predecessor in office, rightly gave a direction that no canvassers were to be admitted to these institutions. He did that in the _interests of the patients themselves. \Vhen the leader of the Opposition took up this matter with me I was not aware of the

·position, and I promised that I would have it investigated. An investigation was made and as a result I strictly adhered, with one or two minor alterations, to the principle laiu clown by the hon. member for Neutral Bay.

}.fr. LA:SG: \Vhat right has the Minister to debar me from addressing my consti tu en ts ?

Mr. FITZSIMONS. The leader of the Opposition will Temember that I was silent while he was speaking.

J\fr. LANG: I will not utter another word!

Mr. FITZSIMONS: The hon. member would lead this Committee to believe that the principles laid down in regard to addressing the inmates of these institutions applied only to the Labour party, but actually they apply, as all hon. members are aware, to every party. They were applied impartially by the officials, no matter who were the ca'nvassers, where they came from. or who sent them there. It was also provided by regulation that literature from any party might be sent to the medical sup· erintendent for distribution.

}.fr. :SHANXO)l': Many of the poor unfortunate inmates cannot read!

}of!:. C. A. KELLY: What ground has the }.finister for taking that action?

The CaAnnrA'N : Order ! I ask hon. members not to interrupt the Minister's speech.

}.fr. FITZSIMONS: Instructions were given that all literature was to bo handed to the medical superintendent for distribution. · Further than that, in the memorandum sent to the department, I stated that if the Labor Daily was not supplied to these institutions

1758 Estimates: [.ASSEMBLY.] DepJ.dment of Health.

as many copies as were necessary or required should be distributed among the inmatzs.

:Mr. \'-l. DAviES: Imagine a member of the United Australia party doing thal!

:llfr. FITZSIMONS: I did it. I went furtl::ei·, and provided that the hon. member for Auburn or the other candidates could, by arrangement with the medical superintendent-following the principle lnicl do~;n by my predecessor-address meztings at any time at their own convenien~e. The only stipulation was that the cnndidate and the medical superintendent had to come to a mutual arrangement. The leader of the Opposition led the Committee to believe-that

. he \\US denied the right to address this section of his constituents; that he could send no manifestos or literature to them, and that he was debarred in every \\ay from making contact with them. He deliberately misinterpreted the instructions given to the department. Ron. members can rest assured that while this Government is in charge of these institutions it will not have the inmates hectored or badgered by political canvassers. If the leader of tlw Opposition wishes, he may forward his literature in the orthodox manner.

Mr. SHAXXOX: The literature \\Ould go into the fire as soon as it was sent there!

The CHATIBfA'N: Order! I call the hon. member for Phillip to order, and ask him to refrain from interjecting.

:M:r. BooTH: This is worse than all the squibs we had last night!

The CHAIR)IA',y: Order! I call the hon. member for Kurri Kurri to order.

Mr. BoOTH: That cannot be denied! The CHAIRliiAN: I again call the hon.

member to order.

Mr. FITZSllfONS: I listened in complete silence to a tirade of abuse against the department, 'but the Opposition refuses to listen to me when I explain the true position, and point out that all parties were treated in exactly the same way, and that every candidate had meted

out to him the same fair play, and had the same right to place his case before these people.

llfr. MATTHEWS: That is not right! :llfr. FITZSIMONS: It is perfectly

right. Mr. M.\TTHEWS: Does the Minister

deny that the inmates of Callan Park had instructions not to vote for other than this Government's candidate~

:Mr. FITZSIMONS: That is a scandalous suggestion to make against the officer in charge of that institution, and the hon. member knows that it is not true.

Mr. :fifATTHEWS: It is true! :llfr. FITZSIMONS: It is not true,

aEd the hon. member knows that he cannot prove his statement. He comes.here and makes free-and-easy statements, challenging the integrity and honesty of high officials. The course adopted was adopted for one purpose only, and that was to protect the elderly people, the majority of whom are sick. While thfl elderly and sick are in our care we will sec that, while they have the opportunity of exercising their franchise properly and fairly, they will not be bullied or hectored by all sorts of undesirable people. It ~s all Yer,r well for the leader of the Opposition to smile.

Mr. LAXG: I have t9 smile at that! Mr. FITZSIMONS: The hou. mem

ber alleged, almost with tears in his voice, that he had been denied the right o£ going to these people and explaining the position to them. I say that he had ample opportunity to address them himself, and he could have directed any of l1is colleagues to address them. . Every opportunity was p;:ovided for him and his candidates to speak to them, but no canvassers from either party werC> allowed to go in and canvass them for their votes. Literature of all kinds wa:;; provided, and even the Labc1· Daily wa:; purchased in abundant quantitie3, so that any inmate who wished to inform himself through the columns of the Sydney llforning Hemld or the Labor Daily had every opportunity of doing co.

The hon. membr-r raised another question which is of more importanro


than this, because it did have the clement of truth in it. He referred to the fact that a man had escaped from a m<::ntal hospital, and it cannot be denied that this man escaped on two occasions.

l.fr. LA::-:c:: It is not a matter of one man having escaped twice. The point is that more than one person has escaped!

Mr. FITZSIMONS: While inmates may be mentally deficient, it is not necessary, in the majority of cases, to place them under close restraint. I was talking to Dr. Wallace the morning after this man escaped, and the doctor informed me that it is the 'desire of the medical officers in charge of these unfortunate people to grant them as much latitude as possible, and to make their lives within these institutions perfectly normal.

Jl.:t:r. LAKG: I am not complaining of that. ·what I want to know is the cause of their attempting to escape, and wh:1t will be clone to prevent it. We think it is due to under-staffing!

Mr. FITZSIJI.:t:ONS: There is no question of under-staffing. In this · instance the man who escaped is particularly difficult to handle. He is mentally deranged in one respect, and undoubtedly suffers from a dangerous form of mental derangement, but he is perfectly normal in all other respects, and possesses considerable physical stamina. At the same time, it is not desirable, in his physical or mental interests, to keep him under close restraint. He took advantage of some of the liberties that are given to these people in order to encourage them to maintain their physical standard, and he escaped from confinement. Others who work in the fields and do light labour about the grounds, although under supervision the whole time, are subject to this curious derangement, which makes it difficult to· handle them. Hon. members may, however, rest assured that the department and the medical officers concerned will see that, in connection with these unfortunate sufferers, the public interests are adequately protegted.

Mr. HENRY (Clarence) [8.34]: The Estimates disclose that thz Committee is being asked to vote £1 671 000 for the Department of Public 'He~lth, and £4,300,000 for the Depal'tment of Education. In other words, for Health and E?ucation the Committee is asked to vote practically one-quarter of the revenue of the State. }\:[y remarks to-

. night are tendered with the utmost goodwill towards the present Minister for Health, with a . view to seeing whether we cannot induce in some of our departments a broader and more tolerant attitude towards the practical matters that count, instead of the old and stereotyped attitude towards many of the causes of death, invalidity and suffering.

The former Minister of Health, Mr. Weaver, who is possessed of such great mental vigor and physical courage that every hon. member must have a great admiration for him, promised to introduce into the State a system by which school children would be given a daily issue of milk, and we were told that the newspapers were to commence a campaign to explain, as is well-known scientifically, that there is no finer or better food than milk for growing children. This being a country that produces milk in abundance, it should be possibie and feasible for that desirable system to be brought to fruition, but for some mysterious reason it never came into being.

JYir. W. DAVIES: There was a reason for that!

Mr. HENRY: I do not know what the reason was, but I sincerely hope that the present Minister for Health will introduce the scheme that was promised by the previous occupant of his office.

Mr. 'VEAVER: The money has not been made available. That is the only reason [

Mr. HENRY: It is rather unfortunate that the money has not been made available. There are many- other desirable reforms if the money for them can be found. The introduction of the lottery, which was a scheme designed to obtain a very large sum of money for the hos: pitals, has, unfortunately, owing to the

1760 Estimates: [ASSE:i\1:BLY.] Department of Health.

attitude of a certain section of the Cabinet, become a thin and attenuated thing ·instead of being a lucrative and succesful venture, and a great aid and asset to our hospitals. The breath of failure ·seems to have been breathed upon it by a :section of the comma:Iiity. I agree with the hon. member for Neutral Bay, that 'if we believe in a principle we should :go the whole way. Big and attractive lotteries, and even one, to the extent of £1,000,000, as suggested by the hon. member last night, would have brought into the coffers of the State enormous ·.sums of money that could have been .spent for the benefit of the suffering poor and those in need of proper and effective hospital treatment. But we are asked ·to shun this idea, which other countries . l1ave so successfully adopted and used to the advantage of their institutions, and ]_)articularly their health institutions,

From time to time inspired statements :are made in newspapers about the disabilities which are being suffered by .school children. We could spend quite ;a lot of money on sending ambulator,y <Clinics around the country to examiiie ·children ancl take certain data with :regard t~ their dental, optical, and physical needs. The clinic should speci£:v the attention children need at a period ()f life when if these matters are not attended to, 'they often become gymptomatic and permanent disabilities. Incalculable harm is done to mar,y pcores of thousands of children, because ()f the fact that they cannot get the necessary treatment for their teeth, their €yes, or their pulmonary :::ondition. In -a country like Australia, in which the -conditions of life and health are as high -as they are anywhere in the world, where we 0ught to have a people virtually diseaEe-free, we find a tremendous amount of disablement and invalidity. From time to time we shut our eyes to the fundamental facts that the building ()f more hospitals, the opening of more j_nstitutions, and the providing of greater facilities for treating the public is not :reducing the proportion of ill-health in the community. A large number of people, including members of this House,

will not face the facts of life. We offc.r. a few miserable thousands of pounds for the investigation and the gaining· of knowledge on health, and the reasons of ill-health, yet there are many suffering human beings ·because of ignorance or the lack of preventive treatment.

On page 97 of the Budget Papers han. members will see that out of t"iw £] ,671,969 it is proposed to approprin te in respect of hospitals and public health, all we can afford to provide is a sum of £525 for expenses in connection with public health propaganda, including the exhibition of cinema :films of an educational character. Although millions of pounds are being spent on other propaganda, a miserable £525 is being set apart for propaganda to tell the people some of the facts regarding public health.

If han. members will turn to page 113 they will find that the sum set apart for the upkeep of mental hospitals -is no less than £404,000, to maintain itl

the vicinity of 10,000 insane pers9ut:. Ev~ry institution for the reception o:!: the insane in this State is OYerflowinp;.

Mr. W. D-WIES: And understaffed! l\!Ir. HENRY: That naturally follows.

The Minister for Health has in his room in Bridge-street a chart showing the number of inmates that can be kept in the mental asylums, and the numbe•· actually in them. Speaking from memory, having seen that chart, every mental institution in this State is carrying hundreds of people in excess of the bed equipment and the normal capacity of the institution. I haYe a report issued under the direction of the Commonwealth Government, giving the results of the various medical congresses that have been held in Australia during the last thirty years. These various Australasian medical congresses~have sat in Sydney and :Melbourne, and the one that recently assembled in Melbourne, made recommendations for the effective combating ill-health at its source.

I intend to make some reference to one ·of ·the greatest causes of invalidity, death 'and suffering, and that is venereal _disease. The hon. member for Neutral

Estimcttes: [27 Nov., lfl31J.] Department of Health. 1761

Bay told us last night that when he was :Minister :for Health he opened a clinic at the Public Health Department. Previous to that, there was :qo proper and effective clinic for the treatment of these diseases in Sydney. The hospital accommodation for the treatment of these diseases is unsatisfactory in the extreme. Up till the time that this clinic was opened in :A{acquarie-street, the only place for the effective treatment of theso di~eases was the Prince Henry Hospital, previously known as the Coast Hospital. People were expected to travel out to Little Bay to be treated there The hon. member for Neutral Bay was instrumental-and I admire him for itin tackling this thi11g in a straightforward, and, as the Premier would say, a forthright manner. I would like to see a clinic established in the city of s·ydney, which would be reasona·bly private, which would ·be advertised in the newspapers, which would be carried on in an open way, so that the people suffering from these diseases could go to the clinic, which would never be closed, but wrmld always be open, with a fully qualifie-.1 .;;taff in attendance.

This report on death and invalidity in Australia says that venereal diseases have been proved to be responsible for a vast amount of damage to mankind. Of the £1,671,969 that is being voted for th·~ Health Department, how much is being provided to grapple with these diseases, which, it is stated, have caused a vast am01:nt of damage to mankind? Tht) beggarly sum of £7,000 is being provided, yet we have to find £400,000 to keep thes·2 unfortunate people in the insane asylums, and it has to be remembered that 25 per cent. of these people who are in insaH:; asylums are there as the result of ven · ereal diseases. If hon. members will look at thE· Budget Papers they will :find th:::.t £2,000 or £3,000 is set aside to catch shnrks, which occasionally attack a man on the beaches. The public is appalled every now and then to read in the newspapers that a man has been taken .by a ,;hark. Would hon. members ·believe it if I told them that every day in New Son.t-h Wales seven people die from

5 T

syphilis?, They would not 'believe it, but fl1c medical authorities tell us it is true. IV' ould hon. members believe that 30 per cent. of the people who are blind, are blind because of £yphilis . and gonorrhoea? The public do not know it. Would hon. members believe that in this report that was issued under the direction of the Commonwealth Government we arc toltl that:

It is fairly certain that 12 per cent. of the population of London, Paris, and Berlin are syphilitic and gonorrhoeic, ancl there is goocl reason for thinking that the Aus· traJian cities are affected to much the same extent.

We are asked to spend £4,000,000 to teach young boys and girls to make their way in life. \Ve teach them the idioms of foreign languages and the higher mathematics, but we hardly give them a glimmering of the sociological laws of the lives they are about to face. At the age of 16 and 1'7 years a false step may permanently wreck their ph_ysique. Very little effort is being made to warn them from the moral and scientific standpoint. what these things are. Y ct, as I have said, here are two diseases, one a blood disease and the other a disease of the mucous membrane, both of which are responsible for more marital unhappiness, more wretchedness, more insanity, more blindness than any other cause, and which :fill our institutions for the aged and infirm. Because of these early affections the unfortunates suffer in later life. One of the most horrible forms of insanity is called G.P.I. or general paralysis of the insane, an affection that comes to many people who suffered from syphilis in early life and were not completely cured. General paralysis of the insane is one of the commonest forms for the certification of the insane. The public and children going through the senior classes of our schools are not told of these things. They have a vague idea these things. They have a vague idea that syphilis is a disease that sailors get and that prostitutes have, until some unfortunate lad, because of a false step, finds he is infected. Ask the public health officers, as I have done, and you will find that the department sends

111$2 Estimates; [ASSEMBLY.] Department of Health.

oJJ:icers to the suburbs to try to trace unfort\lnate lads, sometimes a dozen or lllOre of them, who have been infected by some girl in the neighbourhood who is known to have syphilis. These officers have to go out and hang round billiard saloons and go into hotels and make out they are men about town in order to ascertain the whereabouts of certain boys who are known to have associated with a syphilitic won;tan. W c do not know the shocking things t_hat are going on.

Mr. W. DAVIES: At the Girls' Home at Parramatta they have patients there at five years of age!

Mr. HENRY: The plea I make tonight is that the Department of Health face this thing in a proper way and deal with it effectively, instead of voting a miserable £7,000. Last night the hon. member for Neutral Bay said that the life of a healthy man 21 years of age was worth £2,000 to the State. As I have said, seven human beings are dying every day through ignorance and lack of proper care when they become infected. Tens of thousands need never be infected if an efficient prophylactic clinic were available.

Brigadiei:-Gen. LLOYD: Would the hon. member go further and have compulsory reporting?

Mr. HENRY: That is already in existence. under the Venereal Diseases 'Act, but it does not carry it any further. These things have to be .struck at their source. The senior classes of our schools should be told the fa~ts o£ .life; what venereal disease is, what a terrible men" ace it is to health; how a person may be infected ·by it and not be eff~tively treated and cured. Unfortjlnate individuals are often infected at 15 and 16 ·years of .age, and they hide it and gQ to quacks and low-down chemists. Members of the medical profession as a whole manfully do their work, but the thing is too big for the ordinary genera\ practitioner.

I speak of these things with a g·ood qeal of lmowledge, because I come fron:t a medical family. My father and my two brothers were medical men, and at one time I ~Qntemplated being a medical

man :myself. I speak also as a returneJ soldier who knows some of the shocking facts connected with venereal disease among soldiers both here and overseasMillions of pounds are lost to this State beca\lSe of lives crippled at early maturity, because of unfortunate people who have during the whole of their lives. the lingering remnants of these diseases. that are not effectively cleared up and. cured, and becaUS(;) of the ignorance of the community, as well as because of the smug self-satisfaction of a certain section of the community that says, "Hush, hush," when these thing$ are brought into the light of day.

}\{r. IV. DAVJ!'S: The Department of Education, refused to give l\{rs. Piddington the right to addre:>s even women in the schools . of New South Wales on this subject!

:i\!r. EENRY: Take the Commonwealth Year Book and look at the causes. of death. Genito-urinal diseases take a tremendous toll every year, and cerebral diseases are largely due to syphilis. A gre;1t nml)ber of stillbirths are due to syphilis, and a large number of wo1nen die in childbirth owing to syphilitic husbands. All that goes on .• and we tak(;) up subscription lists to• SaVe women, Out we do J;lOt try to save· women from their o:wn ignorance and their lack of k:p.owledge of the l!iWB of life. I should like to see provided by this Estimate not £7,000, but £70,000,. for the treatment of venereal diseases.

Brigadier-Ge;n. LLOYI!: In what direction does tha hon. member suggest th~ £70,000 should be spe:p.t?

Mr. HENRY: The senior pupils ip: all schools ought to be taught these things and warned against immorality.· Evet·yone knows that religious inl:).ibitio:p.s are not sufficie:p.t, and that t:Pey should be supported by physical inbibitions and a knowledge of these things. They should also know that if they do become i:nfected they should not; go to q\lack;s and low-down chemists, but that there is a place ru~ by the Government which is :never shut, where treatme~t i; given free, and where they may take immediate, effective, and remedial measures under scientific men.


·what does it matter if we spend £70,000 if we can save thousands of lives per annum.

l\fr. BADDELEY: If the hon. member will take action we will support him!

l\fr. IIENHY: I am not making- the plea in any spirit of condemnation of the Department of Health. The hon. member for Neutral Bay was courageous enough to bring forward this matter, and I am prepared to support him. I hope the present l\finistry will deal ~\'ith these things; then we will not be asked to build more mental and other hospitals, because we will not be filling those institutions. We are not asked to build any more g-aols, because. the community is more law-abiding- than it was, and if we deal with venereal diseases we will not need to build more hospital~, because the community will be more healthy. Remember the old adage, "A stitch in time saves nine." If we are going- to pass a vote of £1,500,000 for health purposes, let us strike at some of the sources of ill-health. Let us educate the public about some of the terrible things that are not known to-day, and we shall lift the physical standard of the community to a hig-her plane.

Mr. J. T. REID (Casino) [9.0]: First of all r" desire to refer to the Department of Public Health and its work in the country districts. I cannot support the amendment moved by the leader of the Opposition, with the object of reducing- the vote by £1, because I believe the department should be allocated a much larger sum than is provided on the Estimates. During recent years the sum provided for ambulance work has been considerably curtailed, notwithstanding that the claims on the ambulance services in the country districts are to-day much greater than they used to be. We cannot attempt to extend our ambulance s6rvices until a further sum is made available for that work, and I trust that the Minister will, in the near future, if not this financial yeill', be· able to do that, because the ambulance authorities are doing splendid work. The service has been responsible for the saving of scores of lives by the quick transport

tc. hospital of persons suffering from illness or of others who meet with serious accident. An e..xtension of the service is necessary.

The bush nursing service has also proved a boon to the people of the country districts, and I trust that before long the Minister will be able to extend that service also. In many of our country towns the Country V\Tomen's Association, in conjunction with the Bush NumingAssociation, has been able to establish small cottage hospitals, ·which have· proved very usef).ll. I hope that in the· future monetary assistance will be prO-· vidcd to extend the nursing units scat-· tered amongst our bush townships. Oneaspect of our general hospital work to· which, apparently, no hon. member has given attention, is the establishment of· maternity wards in the country hospitals .. Those units are a crying need, and I was pleased to hear the Minister say· that it is a feature of hospital work he· has in hand. I am glad that he hopes. to establish twenty or twenty-five· maternity units at country hospitals. If· he does, he will earn the undying gratitude of the country people.

·Very little information is g-iven on the Estimates as to the work of the · l\fetropolitan l\:Ieat Industry Board, the administration of which comes under the Minister for Health. Country people are vitally interested in the work of the · board, and are of opinion that it is now necessary to establish additional country abattoirs. I admit that we have a num- · ber of country abattoirs, and no doubt the number will increase as the years go· on, but what I wish to specially draw attention to is that the inspection fees·. charged at these abattoirs are altogether· out of proportion to the cost of the service rendered. I do not blame the Minister for Health for that; I merely draw his attention to it in the hope that the matter will be rectified. The cost of the inspection of meat at country abattoirs should be confined to the actual service rendered, plus a small percentage to meet unforeseen overhead charges. The Minister, when he deals with the regulations and by-laws, should bear that in mind. If we are g-oing to maintain our meat

1764 Bstima.tes: [ASSEMBLY.] Department of If eallh.

export trade, and if veal and other meat is to be exported in good condition it must be treated as near to the source of production as possible. It is impracticable to send vealer calves from three to six months old, bred on the North Coast, to the Homebush .<.\.battoir, because the animals would be bruised to such an extent that they would be unprofitable to the sender. Ron. members should realise that in many cases they would have to be transported 450 miles, which ·WOuld result in the loss of a large num. her.

I congratulate the Minister upon the . i•ork he has done in connection with . the hospitals, and cannot help remarking that until the Steve:ns-Bruxner Government assumed office in 1932 our hospital work had slipped back badly. ·I realise it is impossible to remedy in a few days the mistakes of twenty years, but the present Government is making a strenuous effort to improve the position and for what he has done the Minister deserves

·.the thanks of the community.

Mr. J .A.J\1:ES McGIRR (Bankstown) [9.9] : Mr. Chairman--

Mr. GOLL.A.N: I move: ~.rhat the question be now put.

~he Committee divided: Ayes, 32; noes, 28; majority, 4.

AYES. . Bennett, C. E. Brown, M. Budd, A. E. Carter, H. C .. ·Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. .Elliott, H. 0. Fitzsimons, H. P. "Fleck, Dr. "Frith, W, ·Goldfinch, Sir Philip Gollan, G. C. Hankinson, R. H. Henry, A. S. Jackson, J. Kilpatrick, M. Lloyd, S. A.

Main, H. Martin, L. 0. ?t[orton, M. F. Ness, J. '1'. Primrose, H. L. Reid, A. E. Reid, Major Ross, W. F. M. Shaud, Major Solomon, E. S. Vincent, R. S. Wa.de,B.M. Yeo, A. W.

Tellers, Richardson, A. \Vaddell, J. ,V,

NOES. Arthur, J. G. Baddeley, J. M. Booth, G. Burke, Frank Canill, J. J. Cameron,R. Davidson~. A.

Davies, Vv. Foster, W. F. Gorman, R. D. Hawkins, F. H.· Heffron, R. J. Horsington, E. M. Kelly, C. A.

Lang,J. T. Lloyd, Brig.-Gen. McGirr, James McKell, W. J. 111atthews, C. H ..

Sweeney, J. T. Tonge, A. "'l'ully, J. ·M. Weaver, R. W. D.

O'Sullivan, M. Telle1·s, Quirk, J. Carlton, W. J. Stanley, F. Shannon, T. J.

Question so resolved in the affirmative.

Question-That the vote be reduc~d by £1-put.

The Committee divided: .Ayes, 25; noes, 35; majority, 10.

Arthur; J. G. Baddeley, J. M . Burke l!~railk

Cahill; J. J . Cameron, R. Carlton, \V. J. Davidson, M. A. Davies,· .. W. Gorman, R. D. Heffron, R. J. Horsington, E. M. Kelly, C. A. Lang, J. T.

AYES •

McGirr, James McKell, W. J. Matthews, C. H. O'Sullivan, M'. Quirk, J. Shannon, T. J. Stanley, F. Sweeney, J. T. Tonge, A. Tully, J. M.

Tellers, Booth, G. Hawkins, P. II.

NOES.

Brown, IlL Martin, L. 0. Budd, A. E. Morton, M. Ji'. Carter, H. C. Ness, J. T. Chaffey, Captain Primrose, H. L. Drummond, D. H. Reid, J. T. · Elliott, H. 0. Reid, Major Fitzsimons, H. P. Richardson, A. Fleck, Dr. Ross, W. F. M. Foster, ·w. F. Shand, Major Frith, W. Solomon, E. S. Goldfinch, Sir Philip Vincent, R. S. Gollan, G. C. Waddell, J. W . Henry, A. S. Wade, B.l\f. Howarth, W. A. H. Weaver, R. W. D. Jackson, J. Yeo, A. W. Kilpatrick, M. Tellers, Lloyd, Br'ig.·Gen. Bennett, C. E. Main, H. Lloyd, S. A .

Question so resolved in the negativt?. Amendment negatiVed. ·

Ur. GOLLAN: I move: That the question be now put.

The Committee divided.

.Ayes, 30; noes, 30.

Bennett, C. E. Brown, l\L Budd, A. E. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. Elliott, H. 0 Fitzsimons, H. P.

AYES. Fleck, Dr. Gollan, G. C. Goldfinch, Sir Philip Jackson, J. Kilpatrick, M. Lloyd, S. A. Main, H. Ma1·tin, L. 0.

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] Department of llealth. 1765

Ness, J. T. Primrose, H. L. Reid, J. '1'. Reid, Major Richardson, A. Ross, W. F. M. Shand, Major Stevens, B. S. B.

Vincent, R. S. Waddell, J. W. Wade,B.M. Yeo, A. W.

Tellers, Frith, W. Howarth, W. A. :H.

NOES.

Baddeley, J.l\f. McGirr, James Booth, G. McKell, 'IV. J. Cahill, J. J. O'Sullivan, M. Camerou, R. Quirk, J. Carlton, W. J. Ross, J. C. Davidson, M.A. Shannon, 'r J. Davies, W. Solomon, E. S. Foster, W. P. Stanley, F. Gorman, R. D. Sweeney, J. T. Hawkins, F. H. Tonge, A. Heffron, R. J. Tully, J. M. Henry, A. S. Weaver, R W. D. Horsington, E. M. Kelly, C. A. Tellers, Lang, J. T. Arthur, J. G. Lloyd, B'rig.-Gen. Matthe"·s, C. H.

The TE?IfPORARY-CHAIR?I!A:-< (Mr. SI:\'·

CLAIR): The voting ·being equal, I cast my Yote with the "Noes."

Question so resolved in the negative.

Mr. JAMES McGIRR (Bankstown) [9.25] : Although the debate on the esti·· mates has continued for several days, hon. members have been given little opportunity to discuss matters in which they are interested, because of the constant application of the gag. I am concerned with the estimates of this department because I was at one time :Minister for Public Health. It ill-becomes the present Minister, who is young and unsophisticated, to resent criticism concerning his department and its administration. Probably, when he has occupied his present position a little longer, he may become more fixed in character, and be able to submit to criticism as we1l as criticise. Those in public life must be prepared to take as well as to give. Instead of doing that, the Minister makes a st~teme·nt that is without foundatio11, and then endeavours to wield his power by calling upon the Whip to have the gag applied and so burke discussion. Jt is to the credit of those hon. members who saw fit to curb this petulant and youthful Minister and make him realise that, after all, Parliament is master of

its own business, and, though Ministers may come and Ministers may go, this Assembly will go on for ever.

I am concerned with these estimates because, like my colleague, the leader of the Opposition, I happen to represent a number of men in an institution who,

. though aged, are in the main highly intelligent. That is revealed by an examination of the votes they cast. Through cireumstances over which they havo no control, they are in this institution. In all, they number approximately 1,000. Among them are men who formerly occupied eminent positions in the legal world, and some who attained distinction in various other walks of life. One · was a member of Parliament who, discarding his previous political beliefsfor reasons best known to himself, espoused the cause now under the name of the United Australian ])arty; became a Minister of the Crown, and •by a strange coincidence, he was Minister for Health. He is incarcerated in one of the institutions about which the ;youthful :Minister opposite speaks so disparagingly. I would remind the Minister that many of the inmates are superior h1 intelligence to him, and some other hon. members.

I endorse the remarks made by tl1e · leader of the Opposition. The leader · of ·the Opposition correctly stated to-night that certain restrictions had been placed upon Parliamentary candidates, who, at election time, wished to address the inmates of these institutions. These men have the right to a vote, and they are enrolled in the same manner as other persons. They have to prove that tLey are entitled to enrolment, and when they do that their names are placed upon the electoral roll. But they are hedged about by restrictions which are not placed upon any other section of the community. When a Parliamentary candidate desires to address them he has to do so outside a locked gate. It is true that the Minister, just before. the elections, allotted a time and place for political addresses, and each candi., date was given half an hour within which to address the inmates. On one occasion there were seven candidates in

Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Department of II ealth.

my electorate. We had to attend the institution at 7 p.m., and as the inmates probably had to go to bed at 9 p.m., the seven candidates had only two hours within which to make their addresses.

It was a time-honoured custom that any Parliamentary candidate who wished to address the inmates of these institutions should get into touch with the management of the in:;titution, and by mutual arrangement fix a convenient time, but that custom has 'been altered by regulation. No doubt some clerk in the department suggested to the :Minis·ter that a regulation should be issued, -preventing endorsed Parliamentary candidates from addressing the inmates or institutions, except at certain times.

'The inmates are comprised of men from various walks of life, and to most of them a political address is an entertainment. They like to hear the candidates, but their opportunities for this class

. of entertainment have been restricted by regulation, approved by the Minister at the suggestion of an officer of the department. On the e\'e of one election I went to the l-iverpool State Hospital to address the inmates, but having addressed eight or ten meeting~ during the day, my voice failed, and my colleague, the Federal member for the district, asked the medical officer

-of the institution for permission to speak on my behalf. The medical officer was a decent chap, and he said that he appreciated the position, 'but he

·could not allow the Federal member to ·speak, because the regulations providetl that no·ne but the candidate should .address the patients.

Although there were in that hospital 1,000 persons who were entitled to vote, the Minister sent out an instruction that only .one scrutincer was to be allowed to scrutinise the voting. The regulations under the electoral law clearly and definitely lay it down that wherever there is a polling booth a scrutineer is entitled to be present. Yet, in spite of that, the :Minister gave an instruction that only ·one scrutineer would be allowed a.t this hospital to watch the voting at six tables. When a Minister overrides

the electoral law by regulation it shows how incompetent and incapable he is. Surely this Parliament does not stand for that sort of thing? The :Minister certainly does not like criticism, because every time criticism is levelled at him he runs to the Whip and squeals for mercy. No doubt when he has passed the ·petulant stage he will realise that it is not wise to try to run this country by regulation. It is beyond the duty of any Ilfinister or Government to issue a regulation to prevent Parliamentary candidates from addressing the electors, :mel the action taken by the Minister is totally unworthy of him.

The leader of the Opposition has represented the electorate of Auburn for hl-enty years, and these institutions are in his electorate, as well as in mine. We hear a lot of talk about what should be clone to cope with venereal disease, and what is being done at the Prince Henry Hospital. We have the spectacle of the Emug, complacent ::Minister putting his fingers in the armholes of his vest, and saying, "I am spending £208,000 on the Prince Henry Hospital and establishing 730 beds there." Few beds would have b:;cn established at that hospital had it not been for the legislation passed by the Lang Government, which has 'been held up to ridicule and insult by the supporters of the Government. Had it not been for the establishment of the State Lottery not one brass farthing would have been received by the hospitals. The Lang Government conferred great benefit upon the State by its leg· islation in respect of the abattoirs, the lottery, and other things, and although hon. members who now support the Government scorned that legislation, they are now only too glad to take advantage of it. By means of the lottery this Government has expended £2,000,000 on hospitals, yet it has the audacity and impudence to point to what it has done for the hospitals, well knowing that 1t could not have done anything had it not been for the action of the Lang Government in introducing the lottery legislation.


The Minister has refetred to what has been done by this Government in respect {)f main roads and railways. The Lang ·Government was responsible for the improvement in that direction, and yet it is held up to ridicule in this State. This ·Government is fattening and battening ·On the legislation introduced by a Labour ·Government, and every member on that .side of the Chamber, from the Premier to the meek and mild Minister for Health, knows that that is true. Yet they are loth to receive the criticism which they richly deserve. The bon. member for Clarence has referred to the ·establishment of clinics in this State, . and we know that those clinics are costing, probably, £7,000 a year, and that the money is 'being taken from the lottery revenue. The Minister, with hi~ ~ntourage, is visiting the various hospitals, and promising to expend money

·on improvements, well 'knowing that he could not do that were it not for the legislation introduced by the Lang Gov·ernment. The members of the Country party know the dire straits which the hospitals had reached prior to the introduction of the lottery legislation.

Ron. members know of the criticism hurled by the press against the leader -of the Opposition when he broug·ht that measure down. The Premier, however, is using the £2,{)00,000 and more raised by the lottery to assist the hospitals, and no ·sane person can object to that. I agree with the statement made last night by the ex-1\finister for Health, that if it i.s right for the Government to obtain revenue from race tickets and from the tax ·of 1 per cent. on the bookmakers' turn-over, and to permit the bookmakers to carry on because the public are loverG -of sport and want to bet, it is equally right to have bigger lotteries, which will :provide greater revenue, and the profits ·from which will be eUl·marked for· the purpose of a~sisting the hospitals. The "hospitals have for too long been starved, :and sorely need financial assistance.

It has been pointed out that men have escaped from the mental institutions. Tha.t has been possible because the in-

stitutions are under-staffed, and the officers are called upon to attend to too large a number of patients.

Some of the inmates ma:y have been guilty of criminal offences, some have to be strapped down, and many of them have dread maladies. Yet the unfortunate wardsmen are expected to look after as many as eighteen to twenty patients at a time, and it is a matter o£ woncler to me how they perform their duties. This Government has effected economies at the expense of men who take their lives in their hands every time they attend to their d~ties in some of these institutions .

I say to the Minister for Health, young and inexperienced as he is, that it will do him good to go round to some of the institutions in my electorate. Let him go round amongst the old pioneers who have blazed the trail in this country, ::mel who, by their labours in the heat and burden of the day, laying sleepers and rails in the hinterland of the State, have made it· possible for the State to carry on. They take a keen interest in racing affairs, and like to hear the racing results broadcast. One gentleman of the same political ilk as the present Minister for Health said that it was not right for those men to be permitted to hear the racing resitlts broadcast over the air. Is it the Government's policy to put those men in a Sunday school in the evening of their lives? Does it wish to deny to them the right to say whom they shall place in Parliament?

I advise the 1\ofinister for Health to visit these people and to answer the1r pertinent questions. It is one thing to go along in a ministerial capacity and meet the superintendent of an institution and to inspect the good portions of the• building, but it is another thing to go there as a candidate or as a membe.r who is willing to answer any questions that may be put to him. If he goeo there in the latter capacity he will find how sensible and intelligent these men are. That is an education that any :M.inister for I!ealth should have. I suggest to him that when ti1is Government close:! its business,, as I understand it proposes

1768 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Department of Health.

to do for nine or twelve months next year, he should spend some of his leisure time in meeting these old people. He will then see whether the restriction imposed upon them is justifiable, and will be able to ascertain whether there are not in those institutions men who are as intelligent as hon. members here.

Brigadier-Gen. LLOYD (Mosma1~) [9.44] : I voted against the gag on t.lus occasion for only one reason, that bemg that the Health Department and these health institutions are two of the most important matters to be considereJ throughout the whole of the debate. Tlto hon. member for Clarence made a fearless contribution to the debate, during which he rwas quite frank and open in his statements, and I entirely and absolutely support him. Those who have ha.:l the unfortunate experience of being co~lnected with our big public hospitals, and who know the cause of the majority of the surgical cases in some of them, know that the occurrence of those diseases was due,. directly or indirectly, to some form of venereal disease. Had some of the members on my side lived as long with troops in a regular barracks as I have done, or served with them, they would .have the greatest loathing for that appalling scourge of humanity. In the old days of soldiering there were never less than 10 per cent. of men so afflicted. They were sent away into the lock hospitals, and their pay was taken away from them, and all their friends, relatives and connections knew that they were suffering from this complaint. In those days the doctors and surgeons knew very little about the disease. As a matter of fact many of our medical practitioners in the suburbs will resent the appearance of an individual so suffering, and will tell !1im that there are specialists who deal with that complaint. They fear that if they, as doctors, have anything to do with it they will lose their prestige and standing in the community. That obtains even today.

I do not often talk about the war, but on this occasion I must be excused for ISO doing. When we went to Egypt with

thousands and thousands of some of the finest specimens of Australians that this world has ever seen, and we let them loose in that appalling Cairo, Alexandria and its surroundings, the cesspool of southern Europe, and left them free there without any arrangement for prophylactic treatment we subsequently found a tremendo~s proportion of them inside barbed-wire entanglements. Those men were afflicted with all the diseases that cun possibly be imagined. The rapid growth of the disease was appalling to those who had to watch it. They were taken away from there and placed on troopships and sent home to Australia, and were lost not only to the army but to the whole community. One small-rank officer in Cairo instituted a little prophylactic station with a blue light. He was paraded before the divisional commander for doing such a thing and encouraging immorality. After due ~xplanation he was allowed to proceed w1th it and little by little the blue lights w~nt through the various regiments of that Mena camp until a fairly wholesome body of men was able to go to France.

In France the army resented it, and the intrusion of the blue light came from the Australians. It was Australia's contribution that brought the prophylactic treatment to Europe. The British officers were frightened of it until they saw the result with the Australian forces, and then the blue lights spread throughout the lens.rth and breadth of that great battle line. The system preserved the men for their homes and families, and ·cut short that appalling disease which goes ·down to the second, third and fourth generations. I wish that bon. members could have seen its wonderful results on those troops, and its success in keeping effective men in the battle line, and in minimising wastage, and the number down in the Havre with. their papers taken away-probably married men isolated from their families in Australia. Their pay dockets had marked on them the deductio'ns of pay, so that their peopile at home and their wives and relatives knew of them. So that not only did they have the abominable disease itself, but their families knew that they had

Estimates: [27 Nov., 1935.] Depm·tment of II ealth. 1769

the di'sease, and that made them so criminally foolish as to try to hide the fact that they had it. It went on to the towels and into the eyes of other men, who were blinded and lost their eyesight through it. After they went to Paris they came back more or less wholesome, because Paris had a system of inspection of the unfortunate women there who had to have their registration cards. In addition; a New Zealander, Miss Ettie Rout, established a huge prophylactic place in the centre of Paris, and she personally went to the trains and met our troops in Paris, and asked them, no matter how drunk they might become, to come into this institution. This good lady worked twenty-four hours a day to preserve many and many a fine soldier so that he would go home to happiness and contentment in Australia. That woman, !fiss Eli Root, deserved a name like that of Florence ~ighting·ale, a name that should ring throughout the whole length and breadth of the British Empire. Here in Australia we have not the courage to face the problem. There should be in ever:y centre a clinic where men and g-roups of men throughout the State could go, no matter how much it costs the State. They should go there and receive attention quickly as a preventive, and if, unfortu~ately it failed, for cure. I voted against the shutting down of this debate for a very definite reason. I commend the bon. member for Clarence for his straightforward speech. I know where he got the inspiration. He was a soldier, and saw what I saw in that capacity. Unless Australia faces this matter of prophylactic treatment we shall continue to fill the hospitals and also unfortunately those dreadful homes we have in those districts we know so we1l. I urge the Minister to make as much money as he can available for the prevention and treatment of venereal diseases.

Mr. BADDELEY (Cessnock) (9.53]: I notice in the Estimates that a sum of £4,000 is provided for subsidies to medical practitioners in bush settlements. The industrial areas should not be overlooked. I know of a case at

Greta where a doctor was receiving £500 per annum, because, out of about 1,000 people there were only about twenty working. That' amount ·has been reduced to £250 with the result that that doctor finds it almost impossible to exist, and if he leaves the town the people will be without medical attention. I know that many doctors have rendered wonderful service to the unemployed and I know o£ some cases that I personally brought under the notice of medical men. I am not complaining of the Country party getting all the good things-roads, schools, hospitals -but the Premier of this .State is not J\fr. Stevens. The Deputy-Premier is the Premier of this State, and the Country party is the driving power behind this Government. If the expenditure in the country is compared with that in the metropolitan area I venture to say that it will be easily 20 per cent. more in favour of the country. Certain sections of country areas have met with much success in the matter of Government finance, .but the same cannot ·be said of industrial areas. I do not care which department's estimate is looked at, hon. members will see everywhere evidence of the pruning knife.

1.fr. GOLLAX: I move: That the.question be now put.


Ayes, 38; noes, 26; majority, 12.

AYES.

Brown, ::\L Bruxner, Lt.-Col. Budd, A. E. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. Dunningham, J. M. Fitzsimons, H. P. }'leek, Dr. Foster, \V. F. Frith, W. Gollan, G. C. Goldfinch, Sir Philip Henry, A. S. Howarth, W. A. H. Jackson, J. Kilpatrick, M. Lee, J. R. Lloyd, Brig.·Gen. Lloyd, S. A.

Main, H. Martin, L. 0. Morton, M. P. Primrose, H. L. Reid, J. T. Reid, Major Ross, W. F. M. Shand, Major Sinclair, C. A. Solomon, E. S. Stevens, B. S. B. Vincent, R. S. Waddell, J. W. Wade,B.M. Weaver, R. vV. D. Yeo, A. W.

Tellers, Elliott, H. 0. Richardson, A ..

1770 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Treasurer.

NOES.

Baddeley, J. M. Booth, G. Burke, Frank oCahill, J. J. <Jameron, R. <Carlton, W. J. Davidson, M.A. Davies, W. Hawkins, F. H. Reffron,,R. J. Rorsington, E. M.

McGirr, James McKell, W. J. Matthews, C. I-I. O'Sullivan, M. Quirk, J. Shannon, T. J. Stanley, F. Sweeney, J. T. Tonge, A. 'Tully, J. M.

Kelly, C. A. Tellers, J_,ang, J. T. Arthur, J. G. J_,azzarini, C. C. Gorman, R. D.

Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question-That the vote be agreed

to-put. The Committee divided: Ayes, 39; noes, 26; majorit.y, 13.

AYES.

Bruxner, Lt.-Col. Budd, A. E. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. Dunningham, J. M. Elliott, H. 0. Fitzsimons, H. P. Fleck, Dr. Foster, W. F. Frith,"'"· 'GoBan, G. C. Goldfinch, Sir Philip Henry, A. S. Jackson, J. Kilpatrick, M. Lee, J. R. Lloyd, Brig.-Gen. Lloyd. S. A. J.fain, H.

Martin, L. 0. Morton, M. F. 1\fo,·erly, A. H. Primrose, H. L. Reid, J. T. Reid, Mnjor Hichardson, A. Ross, W. F. M. Shand, Major Sinclair, C. A. Solomon, E. S. Stevens, B. S. B. Vincent, R. S. Wac1clell, J. W. Wacle,B.M. \Vea,·er, R. W. D. Yeo, A. W.

Tellers, Rrown,M. Howarth, W. A. H.

NOES.

Arthur, J. G. Baddeley, J. M. Burke, Frank Cahill, J .. J. Carlton, W. J. Davidson. l\f. A. Davies, W. Gorm:m, R. D. Hawkins. F. H. Heffron. R. J. Horsin!!ton, E. M.

:McGirr . .Tames :McKell. \V. J. Mntthews. C. H. O'Rnllivan, M. Ouirk, J. Rh:mnon. T. J. ::=:tnnley, F. RweeneY. J. '1'. Tonge, 'A·. 'Tull~·, J. M.

Kelly, C. A. Te71ers, Lang, J. T. 'Rooth, G. 1 4azzarini, C. C. Cameron, R.

Question so resolved in the affirmative. Vote agreed to.

TREASURER.

Proposed vote, £2,878,529.

Mr. FOSTER (Vaucluse) [10.101: I nm very glad to Sf'e the Honorary Minister in the chair, because, when he

occupies that seat, invariably he is courteous to hon. members. At the same

. time, considering that we have a Deputy-Premier and a Premier, 1 think that, in view of the seriousness of an amendment that I ptopose to indicate in connection with the income and unemployment tax, one of those llfinisters should have occupied the Minister's chair. I trust that the Honorary :Minister will convey the substance of my remarks to the Premier. My :Federal colleague, the Hon. E. J. Harrison, suggested to me that I should see the party concerned in the matter to which I refer, and I trust hon. members will ]end me their ears. Yesterday I saw the person in question -a lady, whom I interviewed in the corridor. It is somewhat pitiable that because the few dog kennel!> which are termed "strangers" or "visitors" rooms were occupied at the time, the interview had to take place in the corridor. It is scandalous that members of Parliament· are not provided with sufficient accommodation to receive visitors. This lady, whom I jnterviewed in the con·idor, put her case, and I shall repeat it to hon. members in her own words. It is a case of double taxation. The lady is parted from her husband, but that is not her fault. She is not a divorced woman, and I do not think that would matter if the divorce was not her fault. Her husband is a business man, with a substantial income, and he pays heavy taxation. Although he has been taxed, she is again taxed ·by the State, and recently by the Federal Government. That Government, in 1932, exempted cases such as this lady's, but not in case of divorce. It seems to me that so long as the party concerned is not the guilty one there is no reason why the income should not be treated in the same way, and exempted, even if divorce has occurred. The Federal Government amended the legislation dealing with the subject, but only so far as separation was concerned, and that did not include_ divorce. The lady concerned is a most intelligent woman, as I think hon. members will gather when I read what she

Estimates: [27 Kov., 1935.] Treasurer. 1771

has written. I ask them to pardon some heat that she displays and some reflection on a judge, who is not now on the 'bench. The lady supplied me with the following notes respecting herself:

Married woman, living apart from husband. Separated in June, 1925. Private agreement between ourselves. No deed of court. One daughter, now aged 14. My allowance, £8 13s. 10d. until daughter 10 years old; then increased by £2 for her education ( 1931).

I understand it is a weekly allowance, and not a monthly one, but that does not affect the question. The principle would be the same, even if she received a~much smaller amount. I can show that between 1925 and 1930 she has been fined sixteen times, although she did not know that she was liable to pay income tax.

The lady's notes continue:

Did not send returns for years 1925-1930 -asked solicitor on two occasions and he sa.id I was not liable, as this was a.' payment as between husband and wife. There was no decision with reglu-d to separation allowancs until my case at the Court of Review, i~ 1932. In year ending 1930, my mother s m~ome suddenly ceased, owing to the depressiOn, and I took a tempora1·y IJosition to help her-also the unemployment tax was introduced. Not knowing that my husband paid full taxes on all his earnings, without any cleductions-I voluntarilY submitted ·a return. I was astonished at the amount of my assessments-State tax £28 unemployment tax £16, Federal ta~ £70__:_ and the fact that the Commissioner assessed tbis allowance as property, with a, supertax. I lodged objections, which were after much worry and a year's clelay, not ailowed On the aclvice of both l\Ir. Armstrong and Mr. l\fcMahon, I took the case to the Court of Review in Septembe1·, 1932, before a judge. Thecase came on at five to 4 p.m., and the judge was obviously in a hurry to get a~vay, and actually gave his uecision over Jus shoulder as he walked out of court. He treated me '_vith the utmost discourtesy, and made facetious 1·emarks which turned the whole proceedings into 'a farce. My grounds of objection were:-

(1) That, as I am neither divorced nor judicially separated from my husband and am still legally his wife, the incom~ I receive from him is a payment as ?etween husband and wife, and as such IS not taxable.

As my husband pays full taxes on this amount, and is allowed no deductions the Commissioner is not entitled to Claim ;gain

~ro_m me. E_ven _if taxable, the Commissioner IS m error m h1s assessment of this income as property with a super tax. As I have n_o bond or security for payment this is sunply a payment as between husband and wife and is not taxable. The Commissioner in disallowing my claim for £50 reduction for my child, contends that the father is legally responsible for her upkeep. For the purpose of assessment the Commissioner holds to the agreement, for the purpose of any ~ed1:1ct~ons he ignores the agreement wherem 1t lS stated that I wholly maintain the child, alHl to my contention that this allowanee was not an annuity as claimed by ~he Com~issioner, and no _capital sum being mvested, If my husband died it would cease -the judge replied, "Oh! We will not kill off your old man yet.''

Hox. ME~IBERS: Who was the judge? Mr. FOSTER: He is not now on the

bench. Mr. \V. DAvms: The hon. member

oug·ht to name him! Mr. FOSTER: I might name him,

but I believe I am doing right in withholding his name.

Nr. BADDET,EY: What is the hon. member going to do about it?

:Mr. FOSTER: I suggest that Parliament should amend the State law to conform to the Federal law. I would go further than the Federal law. I would make an amendment in favour of divorced people who are not the guiltj' parties. The rude things said by the judge do not matter at the present moment.

The lady continues her statement:

The decision was that as the agreement was recoverable at law, it was taxable, and this decision, given in this way, without a proper judical hearing, is quoted as a test case, no decision having been given before in ·the New South \Vales courts.

I was then servecl with assessments on State and Federal taxes back to 1925, and unemployment tax to year ending 1030, the total being £341. I then applied to the Relief Court and sent in a declaration of my affairs, stating that it would send me insolvent and would result in putting one person out of employment and another on a pension if I had to pay these taxes. I waited twelve months without hearing anything, and then I was asked for another declaration and waited another six months. Then I receivecl a notice that the Federal Board granted me £60 relief, and later I was granted time to pay in small instalments with a request for payment in full in four months' time. 'l~hc State Board

1772 Estimates: [.ASSEMBLY.) . T1·easurer.

later still gunted me no relief, and to my offer to pay in small instalments have sent a letter asking for a definite and substan· tially increased offer of early liquidation.

.As I told bon. members, the wife has been charged no less than sixteen fines although the decision of the judge was a very questionable one.

Mr. W. DAVIES: .And the husband had paid full income tax on his income every year?

Mr. FOSTER: He had paid income tax on a very large income. He paid on a very high scale and yet when the allowance passed into the hands of the wife it was taxed again.

Mr. LANG: How long is it since this case was heard?

Mr. FOSTER: I think it was heard in 1932. It was in 1932, on the same representations I have placed before bon. members to-night, that the Federal law was altered. It is still quite questionable whether the woman is not right in her contention. I suggest that if she is right, it is not necessary for her to go to any court to contest the case. Surely a small amendment could be made in the State .Act. She did not send in returns for the year 1925 and 1930, because she thought she was not called on to do so. I suggest again that more consideration should be given to people who find it almost impossible to meet their income tax assessments. I now come to 1933. The lady says that in 1933 the Federal Government passed a law granting relief in the case of wives separated from their husbands, but not in cases of divorce; but there is no such legislation in this State. She continues:

From personal experience I think relief should be granted to a wife whether separated or divorc11d, if she is not the guilty party, especially when she has a family to maintain. At first glance, it may appear that the husband should be granted relief, but after all a separation between husband and wife f~lls hardest on the. child or children and it is their welfare which should be most considered. I£ a wife 1J3s to .pay heavy taxation, she cannot give the child the advantages to which he or she would be entitled in happier circum· stances, and the father is in no worse posi~ion as he would have to pay full taxes If his wife and family lived with him.

I do not propose to go on reading ex· tracts from the statement. The lady has another two pages in which she gives an account of the sixteen fines imposed upon her despite the fact, as I h:we explained to hon. members, that she did not know she was doing wrong, and at the present moment does not believe that she has clone wrong. She would appeal to the High Court, but she has not the money. Every hon. member will agree that I am only doing my duty in bringing this matter before them. Is it a fair thing that when a man gives an allowance to his wife on which he has already paid income tax the wife should have to pay income tax again?

I am aware that the Premier knows of this case. I am aware of it because I suggested that he should interview this lady; he interviewed her before I did yesterday. I have not heard anything in the meantime, so I do not know what is in the Premier's mind. It may be that he proposes to do something, not necessarily in this case, but in all similar cases. It may be that he has been too much pressed with work to come to a decision, but I should certainly like to hear him tell bon. members whether it is· his intention to ha>e the law amended to conform to Federal taxation laws. Ron. members will agree that it is a great pity that there is no system which squares the Federal law with the State law in taxation matters. At present the position is most confusing.

J\ir. W. D.A VIES (Illawarra) [10.29) : During the discussion to-night on the health estimates, a great deal was said about the State Lottery. The Premier is now in the chair and I take it that he is officially responsible for leg-roping the .State Lottery. It was a Labour Government that passed an Act making it possible to hold the State lotteries; that .Act has been responsible for giving to the State hospitals thousands of pounds. The Premier declares that he is not prepared to extend the activities of the State J_,otter.v Department. The result is. that our hospitals are deprived of a good deal of money to which they are entitled. The State deriYes considerable

E:>lirnates: [27 ~ov., 1935.] Treasurer. 1773

revenue from the bookmakers' tax, the racecourses admission tax, and the operation of the Totalisator Act, and I fail to see any distinction between getting money from those sources and from the the State Lottery. The Premier abolished the State Lottery share system. I personally was opposed to the system, as it then operated, because only a few private persons were deriving benefit from it. It would be quite a different matter if the hospitals were permitted to dispose of lottery tickets, as was done by Mr. Whiddon and others. The Premier has advanced no adequate reason for not adopting such a scheme.

The State Insurance Department has brought large sums of money into the Treasury coffers, yet the Premier has deliberately circumscribed its sphere of activity. He has even circularised persons who were taking out workers' compensation policies with the department, enclosed a list of names of private companies, and informed those policy-holders that there was no 'bar· against them transferring their patronage. That was done with the deliberate purpose of increasing the profits of private insurance companies. The tendency all over world is to extend State enterprises, but in this State the reverse policy obtains, and such activities are subjected to irritating restrictions. Bill after ·bill is introduced for the purpose of assisting the farming community, and it would appear that the Government is prepared to take over anything that is operating at a loss, while it hands over prosperous activities to private enterprise. It socialises losses, but refuses to socialise profits. The big insurance companies are the largest contributors to Government loans, and several of them have already contributed an aggregate amount of £1,000,000 to the current Federal loan. As a reward thB Government makes them handsome gifts and. concessions. The Premier is mainly responsible for that policy.

Mr. STEVEXS: The insurance companies subscribing so generously to the present loan are mainly life insurance concerns!

Mr. W. DAVIES: They deal with ali classes of insurance. At the end of 1932-33 the net surplus of the State Insurance Department amounted to £624,260, and even last year, despite the crippling restrictions of the Government, that depnl'tment made a profit of £62,650. The Government should foster such a valuable asset. I have mentioned the State Lottery and the State Insurance Department, because it is claimed that more money should be raised to assist cn11: hospitals and other social services.

Unemployment relief tax is collected on the basis of wages earned. For the three months ended September, 1935, an amount of £1,421,225 was collected from this source, representing an increase of £377,418, compared with the collection::~ for the corresponding period of last year. The unemployment relief tax, the revenue from which is increasing, should be used for the relief of unemployment as was originally intended. The positio:1 to-day is that the revenue from this tax is being used for the payment of all social services. Before the family endowment tax was imposed widows' pensions were paid from consolidated revenue, but to-day all social services are being met out ·of the unemployment relief tax. It is not fair that that ta..-.,: should be used for any but its original purpose. The relief workers are receiving a mere pittance, and in view of the increasing revenue from the unemployment relief tax there is ample room for additional assistance to be given to them. In England, under the unemployment scheme, a single man on relief receives 15s. a week, and a married man 23s. a week, with 2s. 6d. for each child. If a worker who is paying into the fund becomes unemployed and is idle for twenty-six weeks he receives a weekly payment, even though in the meantime he wins the Irish Sweep, but in this State the worker pays the unemployment relief tax, and as soon as he is out of employment inquiries are made as to the amount he _has

1774 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Attorney-General.

in the bank before he is allowed to participate in. relief work. There should be a more liberal a.nd fairer distribution of the revenue received from the unemployment relief tax. When a member of a friendly society becomes sick he is- entitled to sick benefits, and our system in respect of relief: to the unemployed should be based on the same principle, so that every man who pays the tax will get some benefit as soon as he becomes unemployed, no matter what savings he has in the bank. I trust that the Premier will be able to introduce some scheme which will be a considerable improvement on the scheme at present m operation.

Mr. GOLLAN: I move: '£hat the question l>e now put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 39; noes, 27; majority, 12.

AYES.

Bennett, C. E. Bruxner, Lt.-Col. Budd, A. E. Buttenshaw, E. A. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. Dunningham, J. M. Elliott, H. 0. Fitzsimons, H. P. Fleck, Dr. Frith, W. Goldfinch, Sir Philip Gollan, G. C. Henry, A. S. Howarth, ·w. A. H. Jackson, J. Kilpatrick, M. Lloyd, Brig.-Gen. Lloyd, S. A.

Main, H. Martin, L. 0. Morton, M. F. Moverly, A. H. Primrose, H. L. Reid, J. T. Reid, Major Richardson, A. Ross, J. C. Ross, W. F. M. Shand, Majo1· Sinclair, C. A. Stevens, B. S. B. Vincent, R. S. Wade,B.l\L Walker, R. B. Yeo, A. W.

Tellers, Solomon, E. S. Waddell, J. W.

NOES.

Arthur, J. G. Baddeley, J. M. Booth, G. Burke, Frank Cahill, J. J. Cameron, E. Clyne, D. Davidson, M. A. Davies, W. Gorman, R. D. Hawkins, F. H. Heffron, R. J. Horsington, E. M. Lang,,r.T.

Lazzarini, C. C. McGirr, James McKell, W. J. Matthews, C. H. O'Sullivan, M. Quirk, J. Shannon, T. J. Stanley, F. Sweeney, J. T. Tonge, A. Tully, J. llf.

Tellers, Carlton, W. J. Kelly,~- A:

_QuestiQn so resolve~ in the a:ffirmatil't:.

Question-That the vote be agreed to -put.


Ayes, 41; noes, 2i; majority, 14. AYES.

Bennett, C. E. Brown, M. Bru..=er, Lt.-Col. Budd, A. E. Buttenshaw, E. A. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain Drummond, D. H. Dunningham, J. 1\I. Elliott, H. 0. 'J<'itzsimons, H. P. Fleck, Dr. Frith, '\'il. Goldfinch, Sir Philip Gollan, G. C. Henry, A. S. Howarth, W. A. H. Jackson, J. Kilpatrick, M. Lawson, J. A. Lloyd, Brig.-Gen.

Lloyd, S. A. Main, H. Ma1tin, L. 0. l\I01·ton, l\L l!,. Moverly, A. H. Primrose, H. L. Reid, J. T. Reid, Major Richardson, A. Ross, W. F. M. Shand, Majo1· Sinclair, C. A. Solomon, E. S. Stevens, B. S. B. Viucen t, R. S. Waddell, J. W. Wade, B. M. Walker, R. E•.

Tellers, Ross, J. C. Yeo, A. W.

NOES.

Arthur, J. G. Kelly, C. A. Baddeley, J. M. Lang, J. T. Booth, G. Lazzarini, C. C. Burke, Frank McGirr, James Cahill, J. J. McKell, W. J. Cameron, R. Matthews, C. H. Carlton, W. J. O'Sullivan, M. Clyne, D. Quirk, J. Davidson, M.A. Stanley, F. Davies, W. Sweeney, J. T. Gorman, R. D. Tully, J. M. Hawkins, F. H. Tellers, Heffron, R. J. Shannon, T. J. Horsington, E. M. Tonge, A.

Question so resolved in the affirmative. \Tote agreed to. ·

ATTORNEY·GEJ:\TERAL AND MJNJSTER. OF

JUSTICE.

Proposed vote, £672,067. Mr. SHANNON (Philip) [10.56] ': I

want to take this opportunity of dealing with a matter with respect to which many hon. members have complained to the Minister of Justice. I refer to police raids in connection with starting-price betting. The Government should take some action to prevent the present police system . of raids. There has, for some considerable time, been on· the agenda. paper a notice of motion by the hori. member foi· Marrickville in connectioa with this matter. The same Mtice of

Estimates: [:27 Nov., 1935.] A ttomcy-General_ 1775

motion was on the agenda paper for eight months of last year, but the Go\7-erm:nent provided no opportunity for . its discussion. The police are contin1.ting their starting-price raids, and hon. members have repeatedly complained about it. I, myself, have complained that plainclothes men enter by the back doors of houses, sometimes when the husband is away, and they frighten the women and children. One policeman ill plain .clothes comes in by the back doov, another by the front door, and a third man, a sergeant, who is also in plain clothes, comes in later. The women have no means of ascertaining that tli'} men are police officers. I have complained to the Minister in .charge of the department, and my complaints have been forwarded to the Commissioner of Police, who has replied that, in his opinion, the police have not exceeded their duty.

When a raid takes place one police offi.cer, at least, should be in uniforn1, and the police should have some reasonable grounds for making the raid. 1 know of raids that have taken place in the homes of men who have never bee-11 guilty of sta:t:ting-price betting·. In one instance the man was a wellknown justice of the peace, who had never had anything to do with startingprice betting, and yet, while he was away from home, a man in plain clothes opened the back door of his Premises and walked into the J,itchen where his wife was sitting feeding one of her children. He asked her where the person was who was doing the starting-price betting, and she replied that no one there was doing it, but he said, "Oh, yes, there is; we have had complaints about it." He then went through to the front door and opened it, and admitted another man in plain clothes, and shortly afterwards a third man in plain clothes came in through the back door. .

I am sick and tired of ha:ving to make. complaints about these raids by the starting-price squad of the police force. We know that starting-price betting is rife, and I do not deny that it goes on, but there sho.u.JQ ~e some rea~nable grounds

for action before raids are made upon the homes of unfortunate people. I consider also that some warrant should be produced by the office1·. in charge o:f the particular squad before he raids anyoody's place. I have 110 objection to a. policeman in uniform knocking at thfr front door and demanding the right to search, but there is no justification forplain-clothes policemen raiding· anybody's home through the back door. On many occasions men who are not engaged in starting-price betting have convictions recorded against them because they pl'ead guilty rather than go to the expense of an adjournment and not be able to go to their employment. Then they come along to members of Parliament to see if the fine can bereduced, but they do not realise the difficulty which is encountered when it is found that there has been a plea of guilty.

I know of one case where a young man went out at about noon to pawn his sleeve-links on order to buy some ribbon to make rosettes which he intended to sell. The evidence which he gave could have been checked by the police wh() arrested him because the pawnbroker was licensed. At 12.30 or 12.35 the young man, who was talking to a young lady twenty or thirty yards from the hotel where race results were being posted, was taken to the police station, charged, and convicted. The young lady with whom he was conversing and others knew that he was not engaged in starting-price betting.

Another Inan who had been fined £5 appealed and was successful in his appeal, ·but that appeal cost him £50. He said afterwards that had he known that the appeal would have cost him £50 he would have allowed the conviction to stand. The Government should allow the hon. member for Marrickville to lllOVe the motion whi~h has been stan,ding in his name for the whole of this session, and was on the notice paper of the last Parliament for the last eight months. Something should be done in regard to this matter.

...

1776 Estimates: [ASSEMBLY.] Attorney-General .

. I have other complaints to make with respect to the activities of the police in my electorate. The police arrested two respectable young men in my electorate and charged them with riotous behaviour. One of the young men had been to a fruit shop to buy some lemons. It is all right for the Premier to laugh, but he is not in the position of these unfortunate young men. One of these young men had been to a fruit shop to buy lemons to make a hot drink for someone at home. ·Two plain-clothes

· policemen came round the corner · and arrested them. I learned this morning that the magistl•ate discharged them. The same two plain-clothes policemen only a fortnight back arrested a young man because he was standing on a street corner talking to some others. One of the policemen hit t-he young man in the eye and blackened it. They took him to the Darlinghurst police station and the sergeant there said he would look into' the matter, but nothing has been done about it from that day to this.

Mr. ToxaE: Half the police are unmitigated liars;· everybody knows that.

Mr. SHAl\TNON: I know of a case where a man produced no fewer than eight witnesses, yet the word of two policemen and an informer was taken against that of those eight respectable citizens. I venture to say that the police, in order to get convictions in these particular matters, will not stop at anything. They tell these young men that if they plead guilty they will have the charge broken down and a noniinal penalty inflicted. .The so-called nominal :fine which is inflicted is always £20. If the young men stand up to the charge and plead not guilty, then they have to incur expense to clear their names of the charge which has been made against them by the starting-price raiding officers.

Mr. B. 0. MARTIN: Does the hon. member realise that I do not administer the police force?

:M:r. SHANNON: When I first came into Parliament I had to make about one application every three months for

the reduction of fines in respect of starting-price betting offences. During the last two or three years I have had to worry the Minister about betting prose· cutions six or seven times a week. Much of that work could be saved if the Government would agree to the inquiry asked for Ly the bon. member for Marrickville.

One other matter I desire to mention is the condition of the Children's Court in Albion-street.

~fr. L. 0. MARTIN: We made a great many improvements to that building!

}[r. SHAJ.'iNON: The Minister did so, but there are other parts of the building in which the rooms are in a frightful condition.

Mr. L. 0. ~1ARTIN: We have not enough land there!

Mr. SHANNON: I admit there is congestion, and I understand it is proposed to transfer the Children's Court to Darlinghurst when the East Sydney Technical College goes to George street West. A few days ago I was in the room of one of the magistrates, Mr. Parker, and I asked him how long it was since the room had been done up, and why it had ~ot been renovated when the other repairs were ·being made. Mr. Parker admitted the room was in a bad state, and I could see that several other rooms were also in need of repairs. I aEk the :Minister to consider renovating the Children's Court and the offices that were not touched on the previous occasion.

::M:r. GOLLAN: I move: That the question be now put.

1Ir. LANG: I desire to discuss certain matters connected with my electorate.

The TEMPORARY 0HAffii\IAN (Mr. NEss): How long will the bon. member be?

Mr. LANG: It does not matter how long I shall be. I will not submit to a time limit being imposed upon me by anyone. I claim the right to bring before Parliament matters affecting my constituency. If the Government objects, let it put up wi.th the consequences.

· Eslima:les. 1 [·2~ N. 19"~·] · · 4 OV., uO; Petition:

·The Committee· divided: .Ayes, 41'; noes, 2-T; majority; 14.

AYES.

:Bennett, C .. E .. Brown,M. Bruxner, Lt:-Col: Budd; A.E.Buttenshaw, .E.-A·. •Carter, H. C. •Chaffey, Captam Drummond;.D: H. Dunningham; J. M~ .Elliott, H·. o;. .Fitzsimons; H:-P.Fleck; Dr. Frith; W. <Gollan; G:-C.' ·Goldfinch; Sir Philip J:Ienry,.A. S .. J:Iowarth,.W. A. H. ..Jackson, J~ Kilpatrick; M, Lawson, J. A, Lloyd_,:Brig.-Gen:

Mitin;.H. Ivfartin, L. 0. Pr~~rose, H. L. Re1d;J. T. Reid; Major Richardson; A. Ross, W. F.M. Shand; Major Siiiclair; C.-A\ Solomon;.E. s: Sj:>Ooner,-E. S. Stevens,-B: S: B. Tonliing; A U. Vincent, R. 8; Waddell, J. w. Wade, B. M. Walker, R. B. YilO, A:. W .

J:ellers, Lloyd,.S. A. Moverly, A. H.

NoEs: .Arthur, J. G. 'Baddeley, J .. M. 13ooth, G. 13urke, Frank ·Cahill, J .• r: Cameron; R. -carlton,.W. J. Davidson, M.A •. Davies, W.

·Borman RD.• Hawkins: F. H;

. Heffron, R .. J. 1:Iorsine:ton, E. M, Reily, C. A.

Lang, J. T . Lazzarini, C. C. McGirr, James McKell, W. J. llfatthews; C. H. 0'Rullivan, M. Quirk, J. Shannon,. T. J. R'veeney, J. T. Tong-e; A. Tullv. J.M ..

·Tellers; Clyne, D. Stanley, F.

Question. so· resolved in the affirmative.

Question-That the vote be agreed . to-put. The Committee divided:

.Ayes, 41; noes, 27; majority, 14. AYES.

Bennett. ci: E. Brown, M. Bruxner, Lt-Col.

. Budd, A. E. l3uttenshaw, E. A. Carter, H. C. Chaffey, Captain

. Drummond; D. H. · Dunningham, J: M.

Elliott, H. 0: · Fitzsimons, H. P: ·Fleck, Dr ..

Fi·ith, W. Gollan, G .. C.

. Goldfinch; Sir Philip Henry,.A, S. Howarth,.W. A. H.

· Jackson, J:

5u

Kilpatrick, 11-f. Lawson, J. A. Lloyd, Brig.-Gen . Lloyd, S. A. 1\Iain,.H. llfartin, L. 0. 11foverly, A. H. Primrose, II. L. Reid, Major Richard~on, A. ·Ross, W. F. l\1. Sll::iud, Major ·sii1clair, C. A.

. Solomon; E. S. Spooner, E. S . .Stevens, B. S. B. T.onking, A. U. Vincent, R. S.

Waddell, J .. w .. Wade, B. M . Yeo,A:W.

Tellers; Rcid~ J: T .. Walker, R B.

NoEs: Arthur, J. G. ·liang, J; T:. Baddeley, J. M. . Lazzarini; c: c: Booth, G: McGirr, James Burlie,.Frank McKell, w: J: Cameron, R. O'Sullivan, 11L C:i.rlton;W. J. Quirk, J. Clyne,·D; . Shannon, T. J. Davidson,-M. A:. Stanley, F. Davies; W. Sweeney, J. T. Gorman,.R. D. Tonge; A. HawKins; F:.n: Tully, J. 11f. Heffron, R: J. Tel(ers;. Horsington, E.-M. Cahill, J' .. J:. Kelly; C. A. Mattlicws; C;.H~.

Question. so resolved in the affirmative. Vote agreed. to: Pi·ogress· reported.

. ALLOCATION OF TIME FOR DISCUSSION.

Mr: STEVENS : I. give• notice under .Standing Order No. 175n· that the business· to be dealt· with to-morrow will be: Estimates, Resolutions· from Minister for Public Works down to· and including :Minister for Forests; Oommi ttee of Supply, 3.30 p.m.. Resolutions from :Minister for Labour and Industry down. to and including. Sydney Harbour Trust Fund; Committee· of Supply and Ways and !feans~reception of resolutions and agreement therewith,, and Appropriation Bill, introduction of bill and all remaining stages;. 5· p:m.

House adjourned· at 11.30 p~m.

iLegi~Iatibt ~sgemblp:.

Thursday, 28 November, 1935.

Petition-Printed Question and Answer-Questions without Notice-Local Government (Further Amendment) Bill-Appi'Opl'iation BiJI (Suspension of Stanfling, Orders)-Estimates, 1935-1936 -Appropriation Bill-.Ac1journment (Business of the House-Kogal'ah Council·: Loan Refused). ·

Mr. SPEAKER tpok the chair.

The opening Prayer was· read.

PETITION.

}.fr. D. CLYXE presented a petition from residents of the electorate of King and other parts of ·Sydney· praying for

ltegislatioe ~sssmhlQ. - NSW Government

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