Lawrence Downes (Larry) - Transcript of interview
43
Australians at War Film Archive Lawrence Downes (Larry) - Transcript of interview Date of interview: 5th December 2003 http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/1238 Tape 1 00:35 I was born in Westonia in Western Australian on 5th February 1919. My Dad worked on the mines. That’s why we were over there in Western Australia. He was a – they call it now an engineer. But he was like a blacksmith. He could make anything. 01:00 And he served his time here in Clunes when he was a lad because that was their family. There was no work so they went to the west and he met my mother over there. They got married at Meekatharra and I came along. We were mainly out in the goldfields all the time. We built four houses in the Western Australian goldfields. 01:30 They weren’t shanties. They were made out of hessian and corrugated iron. And when that part of the mine closed down or they opened up another field you just walked out and left it. The worst thing – which is being repeated now – was water. There was terrible scarcity of 02:00 water. My Dad used to bring home every night a kerosene tin full of water that was from the drippings of the steam from the boilers. I can remember it now. It had a queer taste, but it was water. And my mother used to do a lot of washing and that with it. And things that you got back through your memory. I can remember right away back 02:30 to when I was two. They wanted to cut my hair and I used to be snowy white and I had curls hanging down and that. Being the shortage of water, it was pretty hard keeping mine clean. So my uncle took me to the barber’s. And I wouldn’t sit still for them. So he gave me a cigarette. And that’s when I smoked my first cigarette, was getting my 03:00 hair cut when I was two. Anyway the time I was six the mines were cutting out over there. My parents – two more kids had arrived, there was three of us born in Western Australia – we headed back home here to Western Australia. My Dad was born at Allendale. That’s about seven mile out here. And they 03:30 lived here for – he opened business here. He had a business he used to sell boots and shoes – of a weekend he’d shoe horses. Make the shoes and that. They used to get seven and six [7 shillings 6 pence] for them to shoe a horse. Now I think it is twenty seven dollars to get a set of shoes put on a horse. 04:00 How the things change – well I went to school here. Elementary school it was. I got on fairly well at school. 04:30 There’s only one teacher that I can remember that I really learnt anything from and I’ve never seen her or heard of her since. Like I said, I left school. We kids thought she was old. She might have been thirty. That 05:00 was the main part of my life for schooling. And there’s only one time in my life that I was sorry that I never learnt more when I was at school. I left when I was 14. I had to do a school in the army, and algebra – I never heard of it. Didn’t know what they were talking about. To do mapping. You know, to work out the references. 05:30 Well I left school at 14. I got a bloke wanted to take me on as an apprentice, but we never signed no papers – as a painter. I was never very interested in painting and you always got the dirty jobs to get up under the eaves and that to paint. 06:00 You had to mix all the paint then. And they say that leaded paint’ll kill you. Well, in an 8 gallon drum was the lead and you had to mix it up. Well I couldn’t stir it. I was only about – I might have been six stone. So I’d wrap me legs around the drum and got my hands into it and puddled it with my hands 06:30 to break up the white lead. So I ruined a set of trousers and Mother went mad because they were only new when I started off, you know, starting the job fresh. So she said, “You’ll wear them again next time for your next trousers, when you wash and start clean again on Monday.” I put in
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Transcript of Lawrence Downes (Larry) - Transcript of interview
AustraliansatWarFilmArchive
LawrenceDownes(Larry)-TranscriptofinterviewDateofinterview:5thDecember2003
http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/1238
Tape1
00:35 IwasborninWestoniainWesternAustralianon5thFebruary1919.MyDadworkedonthemines.That’swhywewereoverthereinWesternAustralia.Hewasa–theycallitnowanengineer.Buthewaslikeablacksmith.Hecouldmakeanything.
01:00 AndheservedhistimehereinCluneswhenhewasaladbecausethatwastheirfamily.Therewasnoworksotheywenttothewestandhemetmymotheroverthere.TheygotmarriedatMeekatharraandIcamealong.Weweremainlyoutinthegoldfieldsallthetime.WebuiltfourhousesintheWesternAustraliangoldfields.
01:30 Theyweren’tshanties.Theyweremadeoutofhessianandcorrugatediron.Andwhenthatpartoftheminecloseddownortheyopenedupanotherfieldyoujustwalkedoutandleftit.Theworstthing–whichisbeingrepeatednow–waswater.Therewasterriblescarcityof
02:00 water.MyDadusedtobringhomeeverynightakerosenetinfullofwaterthatwasfromthedrippingsofthesteamfromtheboilers.Icanrememberitnow.Ithadaqueertaste,butitwaswater.Andmymotherusedtodoalotofwashingandthatwithit.Andthingsthatyougotbackthroughyourmemory.Icanrememberrightawayback
02:30 towhenIwastwo.TheywantedtocutmyhairandIusedtobesnowywhiteandIhadcurlshangingdownandthat.Beingtheshortageofwater,itwasprettyhardkeepingmineclean.Somyuncletookmetothebarber’s.AndIwouldn’tsitstillforthem.Sohegavemeacigarette.Andthat’swhenIsmokedmyfirstcigarette,wasgettingmy
03:00 haircutwhenIwastwo.AnywaythetimeIwassixthemineswerecuttingoutoverthere.Myparents–twomorekidshadarrived,therewasthreeofusborninWesternAustralia–weheadedbackhomeheretoWesternAustralia.MyDadwasbornatAllendale.That’saboutsevenmileouthere.Andthey
03:30 livedherefor–heopenedbusinesshere.Hehadabusinessheusedtosellbootsandshoes–ofaweekendhe’dshoehorses.Maketheshoesandthat.Theyusedtogetsevenandsix[7shillings6pence]forthemtoshoeahorse.NowIthinkitistwentysevendollarstogetasetofshoesputonahorse.
04:00 Howthethingschange–wellIwenttoschoolhere.Elementaryschoolitwas.Igotonfairlywellatschool.
04:30 There’sonlyoneteacherthatIcanrememberthatIreallylearntanythingfromandI’veneverseenherorheardofhersince.LikeIsaid,Ileftschool.Wekidsthoughtshewasold.Shemighthavebeenthirty.That
05:00 wasthemainpartofmylifeforschooling.Andthere’sonlyonetimeinmylifethatIwassorrythatIneverlearntmorewhenIwasatschool.IleftwhenIwas14.Ihadtodoaschoolinthearmy,andalgebra–Ineverheardofit.Didn’tknowwhattheyweretalkingabout.Todomapping.Youknow,toworkoutthereferences.
05:30 WellIleftschoolat14.Igotablokewantedtotakemeonasanapprentice,butweneversignednopapers–asapainter.Iwasneververyinterestedinpaintingandyoualwaysgotthedirtyjobstogetupundertheeavesandthattopaint.
06:00 Youhadtomixallthepaintthen.Andtheysaythatleadedpaint’llkillyou.Well,inan8gallondrumwastheleadandyouhadtomixitup.WellIcouldn’tstirit.Iwasonlyabout–Imighthavebeensixstone.SoI’dwrapmelegsaroundthedrumandgotmyhandsintoitandpuddleditwithmyhands
06:30 tobreakupthewhitelead.SoIruinedasetoftrousersandMotherwentmadbecausetheywereonlynewwhenIstartedoff,youknow,startingthejobfresh.Soshesaid,“You’llwearthemagainnexttimeforyournexttrousers,whenyouwashandstartcleanagainonMonday.”Iputin
07:00 aboutsixmonths.Butfromourbusinesstherewasablokeowedmyfathermoney.Andhecameandhegavesomuch–halfofthemoneythatheowedtometogivetomeDad.SoIjustsatitinthetillandtheblokeclaimedit.Hewouldn’tgiveitup.
07:30 SoItippedthepaintallovertheflooracrossthecounterandleft.Thatwasthepaintingjob.TherewasnothingdoingforawhilebecausebythistimetherewaseightofusinthefamilyandDepressionwashittinghard.IgotajoboutonafarmoutatTerallo.Thatwasin1933.
08:00 1934and'35Iworkedthere.For17andsixaweekandmykeep[foodandboard].ButIwasmilkingtencowsnightandmorning–byhand.Andhadtobeoutwiththemeninthepaddockwhentheywerereadytostartatseveno’clock.AfterI’dbeentherethreeyearsIaskedforariseandtheyaskedmehowmuchdidIwant.
08:30 IsaidIwantedahalfacrown[2shillings6pence].Thatwouldhavemademeapound.Theysaidtheycouldn’taffordit.SoIleft.AndIwentovertotheirneighbourandworkedfor8shillingsadayfromseveno’clocktofiveo’clockanddidn’thavetoworkhalfashard.Whentheharvestandthatcutout–nowworkagain.Somy
09:00 matewholiveduptheroad–thewholehousejustgotburntdownhereaboutamonthago.AndheandIwenttoMelbourne.WewalkedMelbourne.WewalkedintotowndownaroundPortMelbournetheretothefactories.No,theyweren’tputtinganyon.Ifanythingtheywereputtingpeople
09:30 off.AndmyunclewasawheelwrightwiththetramwaysoveratPreston.AndIwasboardingtherewithhim–livingwithhim–whileIwasinMelbourne.Hesaid,“Whydon’tyoucallintothetramwaysandsaythatyouknowDinnyDownsandaskforMrBirch?”Well
10:00 JackPazaskyandIgointothetramwaysandgouptothedeskandwesaidwewantedtoseeMrBirch.Shesaid,“Haveyougotanappointment?”Wesaid,“No.”“Wellyou’vegottohaveanappointmenttoseeMrBirch.”Andjustatthatthisblokewaswalkingpastandhesaid,“DidIhearmyname?”AnditwasMrBirch.Andshejustsaid,
10:30 “Thesetwoyoungfellowswantedtoseeyou.”“Yeah,DinnyDownssentme.”Hesaid,“IknowDinnywell.Comeintotheoffice.”SoIwentintotheofficeandhesaid,“Howwouldyouliketobeconductorsonthetrams?”“Yes,we’lldoanything.”SowehadtogoouttoKewandworkforafortnightlearningtheroutesandthat.
11:00 Andwegotajobonthetrams.Well,inthemeantimetheNationalServiceIthinkorsomethingitwas–wehadtogoanddoacamp.WellIdidacamp.Itwasaholidaytogoon–thatsortoflifesuitedme.Sowentbacktothetramways,thenwegotacallupto
11:30 doanothercamp.Isaid,“Thisisgoingtogoon.IthinkI’llseehowIgoforgettingstripes.”WellIsatandknuckleddowntoit.ButIlovedit–thephysicalpartofit,thephysicalcultureandthat.SofromtherewewenttocampdowntoBelcoe.Andthat’swhen
12:00 theycalledforvolunteerstogoto–welltheyjustsaidtheywereformingaspecialforce,butintheirtalkweknewitwasgoingtobetoislandssomewhere.Theycalledforvolunteers–Iwaswiththe8thBattalioninBallarat–fromthe8th.Buttheycalledfromall
12:30 militiabattalionsthattheywantedNCOs[NonCommissionedOfficers]andthatandinthemeantimeI’dgottwostripes.Soasacorporal–Iwentasacorporal.IthinkBertieFrywentasacorporaltoo.SowewenttoDarley.ThatwasdownBacchusMarsh.SoIwasreallyoriginalofthe
13:00 39thBattalion.That’swhereweformed,downthere.WedidahellofalotofroutemarchesaroundthroughthemhillsandthemgorgesdownaroundBacchusMarsh.Nextthingwegetacall,we’reonfinalleave.WeleftonBoxingDayandarrivedupatCircularQuayinSydneyonthetrain.Andtheylookedatitandtheysaid,
13:30 “That’stheshipwe’regoingon.That’stheboat.”Ihadalookatit.Youhadtolookupintheairtoseethetopofit.ItwastheAquitaniaanditwas56,000tonnes.AndthebiggestboatthatI’deverseenwasarowingboatoveronthelakeatDaylesford.Togoonthat,ittookyouhalfadaytowalkaroundit.Wesetsailthenextdayfor–weweregoingnorth
14:00 soithadtobesomeislandupthere.WewerehopingitwouldbeNewGuineabecausethatwasthebiggestone.Sothat’swherewewent.WepulledinintheafternoontoPortMoresby.Butwecouldn’tgettothewharf.AndwehadtogodownropeladdersintotenderstolandinNewGuinea.
14:30 CanyoujusttellusveryveryverybrieflywhatyoudidinNewGuinea–whereyouserved–justverybriefly?
Ontheboat,theyreckonedwhatwe’dneedmostwasammunitionandourfightinggear.
15:00 Thatfirstwentontheboat.Beingthefirstonitwasthelastthingsoff.Allwehadwasfiveroundsofammunition.Soifthey’dhavecamedownthenwe’dhavegotknockedoffveryquickly.Wespentmostofthetimeupthereeitherunloadingboatsorputtingupbarbedwirefencesaroundthebeaches.
15:30 TillJuly.That’swhenwegotthecalltogooverthemountains.Wewalkedoverthemountains.Youwanttokeepmeonthesamesubject?
Butdon’ttellusanydetailsbecauseI’llcomebackandaskyoualotofdetailonKokoda.Justkeepitbrieffornow.Introduction.Nothingmore.
Right,wellwedidamedical.
16:00 Theysaid,“Anybodythathadanyinjuriesoranythinghadtoreportit.”SoIreportedI’dhadtinea.That’slikedermatitis.Inmytoes.Sotheygoandtheysay,“Anybodythathadcouldn’tgo.”SoIgotparadedtothewhat’s-a-name.Hesaid,“Seeingyou’resokeenI’llgiveyouthefirsttwostages.”Sohesaidtome“Howareyougoing,Downes?”
16:30 firstday.Isaid,“Allright.”Secondday,“Stillonyourfeet?”Isaid,“Yes.”Well,Inevertookmybootsoffforsixweeks.Iwasn’tgame.Fromthereeachstage–wellsomeofitwasmurder,someofthemridges.You’dlookoverthesideandthere’sathousandfootdrop.
17:00 Telluswhichplacesyouactuallyfoughtin.ThenamesofthetownsandplacesdowntheKokodaTrail?
OntheKokodaTrackweallfought–themainfightwasatDeniki,downtoKokoda.WeretookKokoda.That’swheremycompanygotbadlyknockedaboutatKokoda.WeleftKokoda.
17:30 Wewent–DenikihadfallensowetooktothemountainstogetaroundDeniki.AndwewenttoIsurava.Andthat’swherewemetthe14thBattalion.Wewouldn’thavelasted.We’dhilleditforfourdayswhenthe2/14thcamethroughtous.Andwe’dhavegonethatnight
18:00 ifthe14thhadn’tcamein.Andweweretoberelieved.Westartedtopulloutandwegotwordthatthe14thwasintroublesoweturnedaroundandwentback.Andthat’swherewehilledthemthereforjustonanotherthreedaysandhadtogetoutbecausethe
18:30 woundedandthatwasmounting.SowepulledbackthentoEoraCreekandwehadanotherbigscrapthere.Andyou’dholduntilthewoundedclearedandwehopedthatthey’dgottothenextstage.BecauseyouhadtorelyontheFuzzyWuzzies–thePapuansthatwereonthestretcherscarrying
19:00 thewoundedout.TherewasoneinstancewhenwegotoutofIsuravawhenwewerefightingarearguardactiontherewhiletheywerewithdrawingthe14ththatwehadtheblokeonastretcherfromthe14th–hehadhisfootmangled.Therewasnobones.Itwasjustshreddedflesh.Andhewasonthestretcherandhekeptsayingtous,“Don’tleaveus.
19:30 Don’tleaveus,willyou?”Wesaid,“Nowewon’tleaveyou.You’llberight.”Wehadamadcaptainandhecounteddownasifhewasinaboxingring.Hesaid,“WhenIsaygo,yougo.”Andhestartedoffandhe’ssaying“One,two…”andwhenhegottoninethisblokejumpedoffthestretcherandoff.
20:00 Anditwasanhourandahalfbeforewecaughtuptohim.Herunononeandahalffeet.Hehadhislegamputatedinthefinish.Butthat’swhatfearwilldotoaman.Hethoughtwe’dleavehimbehind.Imethimatareunionon
20:30 AnzacDayandhewasinawheelchairthen.Othercomplicationshadsetin.
CanyoutelluswhatyoudidafterKokoda?
AfterKokoda.WhenwecamebackoutofKokodatheypromisedme,“Ifwedon’thavetogostraightbackinI’mgoingtosendyoudown.I’mgoingtosendyoudowntoofficerschool
21:00 atBonegilla.”That’supherebyAlbury.SoIcomebackdowntodotheofficerschool.Theywereteachingusopenwarfare.Igotintoabitofstrife.Iaskedthem,“Whatwouldwedoifthiswasjungle?”They’dgetabitsnottyaboutitand
21:30 say,“We’reteachingopenwarfare.”“WellI’mnotinterested.I’vegottogobackandteachjunglewarfaretothefellowsandwe’regettingnewblokesthroughallthetimethatknownothing.”Andhewentonlikethat.WellIgot93forpracticalwork,butfortheoryIgot30.SoIdidn’tgetapass.Butthe
22:00 papersthatwentback,theysaid,“AgoodNCO,butneedsdiscipline.”SothecolonelsaidtomewhenIwentback,“WhatdidItellyou?Tositandlisten.”Isaid,“Butyoucouldn’t,sir,theydidn’tknownothing.Andtheycouldn’tanswerorwouldn’ttrytolearn.”
22:30 DidyouhaveanyactiveserviceafterKokoda?
No.Notactiveservice.Iwentbacktotheislands.Justinbetween,whenIwasgoingback,theygaveme12menoutatSaleen.Thatwasthestagingplacetotakebacktotheislands.Wellwehadtocatchthetrain.
23:00 Caughtitaboutsixo’clockintheevening.Anddidn’tgetintoTownsville,towherewewerecatchingtheboatbacktoMoresby.AndwhenwegotbacktoTownsvilleIhandedthepaperstotheofficerthatwascollectingthenewrecruitsthatIwastakingup.AndIhadfour.Theydropped
23:30 offthetrainthroughthenight.“Sergeant,youhaven’tdonetoobad.Thelastblokethatcomeuparrivedwithone.”
Didyoutakepartinanyoperations,yousaidintheislands?
IhadoneoperationinNorthQueenslandandAthertonTablelands.
Anycombatoperations?
Yesandno.Ihadwhattheycalla
24:00 depressedcheekfracture.AndIhaditforsixweeks.Menwerecallingme“BatEye”becauseallmyeyebrowwashangingdownovermyeye.Theyoperatedonitandtheystraighteneditupbut
24:30 Igotabluemarkinmyeye.Thathascomethrough–theytookoffaskinthatstartedtogrowonitandtheysentmetogetradiumtreatmentonit.That’saradiumburninmyeye.
Telluswhatyoudidafterthewar.
25:00 I’vegotacoupleofinterestingbitsthere.Whentheybrokeusuptheypulledusoutoftheorderofbattle,theysenttheremainsofustothe2/2ndBattalionandsomeofthemwenteverywhere.SomeofthemIneverevercaughtupwiththemagainbecausetheygotkilledupatGona.
25:30 Butthebest–IwasanembarrassmenttothembecauseIwasasergeantandtheyhadtoomanysergeants.SoIusedtogetactingsar[sergeant]majororsomethingandItookthelastparadeofthe39thBattalionwhenwewerepulledoutfromtheorderof
26:00 battle–the39thtothe2/2nd.Itwasonsomefootballgroundorsomethingwheretheytoldus.Oneofthebigchiefswerethere.Andsaidthatwe’dbewithdrawnfromtheorderofbattleandthetroopswereverytoey.Whichwaspracticallyaninsult.Sowegobackandmycompanywentto
26:30 Acompanyinthe2/2nd.That’saNewSouthWalesregiment.Myjobs–IgotsentdowntotheProvos–that’sthemilitarypolice.ThatwasoneofthegoodpartsthatIhadinthearmy.IsentdownthereandtwoofusweresenttoteachtheProvosinfantrywork.
27:00 WithBrengunsandthat.Theywerethebestpupilsyoucouldhavewishedtohave.Theyallwantedtolearn.Ihadaboutamonthofthat.Onenightweheardtrucksandmotorbikesrevvingup.Inthemorningwhenwecomeonparadetheywereallgone.
27:30 Theyknewwhatwaswrong.There’dbeenatroopmovementtothenorthandthey’dgoneondutytotakethemtotheboats.
Larry,I’llstopyoutherenow.We’llgobacktowardstheDepressionperiodandIwanttoaskyoualotofquestionsonthat.
28:00 Tellusabitaboutyourparentsandtheirbackground.
MeDadwasaminingengineerontoday’sstandards,buthewasablacksmith.Hecouldmakeanything.Ontoday’sstandards
28:30 theydoitwithweldingandeverything.Hediditintheforgewithananvil.Hewasagoodfarrier.Hewasageneralengineer,ifyou’dliketocallit.Hecoulddoanything.Hecouldgobelowanddojobsdownonlowlevelsdowninthemines.
29:00 CamebackwhenwelandedbackinVictoriafromthewest,hadthisbootshop.There’salotofkidswhowerewalkingaroundwithbootsoninClunesthathadneverpaidforthembecausetheirparentsneverhadthemoney.Soheusedtomendtheirbootsforthemandifyou
29:30 comegood,wellyoupay.That’swheremostofthepeoplelivedthroughtheDepression.Wewereneverhungry.Therewasalwaysfoodonthetable.Hegotoutofthe–asamatteroffactanuncletookitover,the
30:00 bootshop.AndmyDadwasdoinglotsofdifferentworkaround.TheDepressionwasgettingdeeper.Theyweresentontherailwaysupintothecuttings,diggingcuttingsthroughwithapickandshovel.Theyhadahorsepullingatypeofaploughandhewaskeptbusysharpening
30:30 thesebigshearsforthem.Aboutthreefootlongtheywere,theshearthatwentintobreakthedirtforthefellowswiththepicksandshovels.Thatwenton.Ithinktheyweregetting12andsixpenceadayworkingthroughtheDepression.
31:00 Therewasnowork.Nobodywantedtoputanyoneon.Thebossesneverhadanymoney–thebutchersandthebakers,theywereputtingoffstaffandtheyweredoingitbythemselves.Wealwayshadacowsowealwayshadmilk.Andwealwayshadagarden.Weusedtogrowourownvegetablesandeverything.And
31:30 Icanrememberwhenmymotherwasinhospitalhehadthiskerosenetinonthefireandhehadalumpofcornbeefheputinthetin.Heputinhalfacabbageandthecarrotsandeverythinganditboileduponthestove.Thatwasourweekendmeal.Itwascornbeefandcabbage.You’veprobablyheardofit.
32:00 Itcouldn’thavedoneusanyharm.Therewaseightofus.Stillallalive.Sothetucker[food]musthavebeenallright.HeboughtanoldTmodel–new–TmodelFord.Andthat’swhatheusedtogotowork.Hegotoutonthebigstationouthere.Andhewas
32:30 makingallnewgatehingesandthatforthestation.Heusedtodoabitofeverythingoutthere.Theyweredoingajobputtingupafenceandhewashangingthegatesonthisplaceandwhenknockofftimecometheothersallwenthomeandtheylefthimwiththehorseandcart.
33:00 Cominghomethecartwheelcollapsedandhewasunderitfor,wedon’tknowhowlong.Anyhowhegotoverthatbutheneverlastedverylongafter.Hediedat69.Buttheysaidhehadaheartattack.Butthatwasonlyastrainedheartfromtryingtogetoutfromunderneaththewagon.Youknow,hetriedtoliftit
33:30 togethimselfout.Andthedoctortolduslater,“You’refather’dstillbealiveifhehadn’tstruggledsomuchtogetoutofthewagon.Thatstrainedhisheart.”
34:00 Thedoctorthat’streatingmeformyheartattack,hesaidtome,“Whathaveyougotinlifefromnowon?”Isays,“IwanttoliveaslongasIcan.I’dliketoliveaslongasmemotheraslongasIcanmoveabout.”Andhesaid,“Howoldwasyourmother?”Isaid,“Shewasahundredandfour.”“OhgoodGod!”
34:30 hesaid,“Imightbeabletokeepyoualiveuntilyou’reninety,butIdon’tknowaboutahundredandfour.”Thetramwaysgaveusawarsavingscertificateeachweekofour
35:00 activeservice,andthosethatcamebackfirstgotitandleftthetramways.Sotheyputastoponit,thatyouhadtoworktwoyearsbeforeyoucouldcollectit.SoIworkedforthreeyearsandIboughtthisplacehere.IcamebackhomeandIwasfarming.
35:30 Whenyougobackandthinkovertheyears,thoseyearsthatIputin,thethreeyearsthatIputinoutthereatthatfarmmilkingcows,doingflyblownsheepandtreatingthemlikeavet,takingcalvesawayfrom
36:00 cowsandthat.WhenIcameherethatstoodtome.ThatwassomethingthatI’veregrettedsince,thatwhenIcameoutofthearmythatIdidn’t–whichIcould’vegotfornothing–becomeavet.Icoulddoeverythingpractical.
36:30 TelluswhatyoudidbeforefarmingduringtheDepressionyears.Howwouldyouentertainyourselves,youandyourfamily?
Idon’tknow.ThroughtheDepressiontherewasalwaysadanceorthepictureshow.Thatwasseven
37:00 pence,togotothepictureshow,andIthinkitwasoneandapennytogotogotothedance.Welltherewasalwaysadance.Ifitwasn’tinthetownhallthere’dbeonethefollowingweekinthefirebrigadehall.OneoftheladsboughtanoldBuicksoweusedtogotoBallaratsometimesinit.
37:30 We’dputinforthepetrol.ThepetrolIthinkwasoneandthreepenceagallonorsomethinglikethat.I’venevereverbeenbroke.I’vealwaysbeenabletoget,asyousay,getashillingsomewhere.I’vebeenprettylowattimes,but
38:00 Ihadmymarks,butthisoldladyIknewthatIcouldgetashillingoffherbygoingupandcuttingthewoodforherorfillingherwoodbox.Anothertimetherewasashopkeeper,anoldlady,wereckonedshewasold,probablyabout45orsomething.Sheusedtolikechickensoup.
38:30 SoI’dkilloneoftheoldWASDOUBLEQUOTECHOOKs[chickens]athomeandpluckitandtakeitupandsellittoherfortwobob.Icouldalwaysgetashilling.Differentthings–Imighthaverunmessages.Igotfiftycentsonceforclimbingthe–fivebob[shillings]wasbigmoney–climbinguptheflagpoleontopofthetown
39:00 halltoputtheropein.Theropehadbroke.
Youdidthat?
Yeah.AndIpaidforitforafortnight.Allthemusclesinmelegs–youknowwhereyouwrapyourlegsaroundthepoletogoup?Ooohitwaspainful.ButIgotfiveshillingsforit.IthinkIgavememotherhalf.Ikepttheotherhalf.Differentthings.Igotintoabitoftrouble.
39:30 Pinchingapples.Gotcaughtwiththepoliceandgotfourhoursinthelockup.Tookusdownandputusinthelockup.Fourofus.Twoofuswereallright.Theothertwowerehowlingallthetimetheywereinthere.Weknewwe’dgetoutinthefinish.Butallthoselittlethingslikethat,itpassed
40:00 thetimeaway.WeknewwhereeveryappletreeinCluneswas.Everybodyknewifthey’ddisappeared,they’dsay“Ohsoandso.”Wehadgasherethen.Andmematehadthejobofputtingoutthelights.SoIusedtogoroundwithhimsomenights.Andthisnightwewereridingthebikesdownpastthepolice
stationandthisvoiceyellsout,hesaid,
40:30 “Where’syourlights?”Isaid,“Nexttomeliver.”Andhesaid,“Downes,ifIcatchupwithyoutheywon’tbenexttoyourliver.”
Tape2
00:35 Couldyoutellmeabitmoreaboutyourparents?Whatsortofpeoplewerethey?
TheywereAustralian.
Notaliensthen.
Yep.Andmymother,she’dhadahardlife.Shemighthavemade104,butitwasn’taneasylife.
01:00 Hermotherdiedyoungorleftamessandsherearedallherbrothersandsisters.OneofherbrotherswasattheFirst[World]War,hewasaLightHorseman.
01:30 Idon’tknowwhattheotheronedid.Ithinkitwasjustworkingonthefarm.ShecamefromBrokenHillinthefirstplaceandshewenttothewest.Howshegottothewest,thatIdon’tknow.BecauseInevereverbothered–youknowyou’resorrynowthatyouneverfoundoutalotofthesethingsbecauseyounevereverthoughtthatyou'regoingtogetold
02:00 andlookbackonthings.Butshewenttothewestandshewasworkinginthecaféortherestaurantontherailwayline,youknowatMeekatharra.Andthat’swhenmeDadmether.Shealwayshadabusylifeevenwhenweworkedinthecreekuphere,
02:30 goldmining.Sheusedtocomedownandgiveusapullonthepumpsforaspell.SoonedaymeDadwasdowntheholeandhehadaquicktemper.Ifhesaidhe’dkillyouhewouldifhegotthechance.AndItippedabitofdirtdownonhim.Felloffthebucketasitwascominguponthewindlassandhesaid,“WhenIgetupthereI’llbloodykillyou.”
03:00 Iwasn’tuptherewhenhecame.Hewasstilldownthehole.Iwenthome.Mymothersaid,“Where’syourfather?”Isaid,“Downthehole.Hesaidhe’sgoingtokillmebecausesomedirtfelldown.”Shetookoffdownandhewasuptohischestinwater.Thewaterhadbrokenthrough.Sohecouldbloodywellhavedrowned.Ikeptoutofhisreachforalongtime.Iusedtoworkwithhim.
03:30 Iusedtorideabikeout.He’dgoinhorseandcartoutaboutfourmileoutwherewehadashaft.ItwassomethingtodowiththeMinesDepartment.Yougotpaidsomuch–likehegotagranttodoit.AndIwaspullingdirt130feetonawindlassandIwasonlysevenstone.
04:00 Whenyouthinkback,howthehelldidIbringupaman12andahalfstone?Onawindlass.
Howdoesawindlasswork?
It’saroundbarrelandtheropegoesarounditandyou’vegotahandleoutlikethatontheside.Andyou’repullingitlikethat.Icanfeelitnow.Catchingjustonthebackofmyneck.God,ifyoulet
04:30 itgoit’dkillyou.She’dgodownprettyquick.AndI’venevereverletabucketgo,butabitofdirtfelloffandthat’swhenyou’dgrabittopullitofffromtheshaft.Wefinishedthatshow.
Youruncle–yourmother’sbrother–didhesurvivethewar?
Yeah.Hecomebackandhediedat33.
05:00 Hismother–likeIsaid,wedidn’tknowwhathappened.Buthenevereversettleddown.Hedidabitofeverything
05:30 whenhecamebackfromGallipoli–notGallipoli,fromFrance.Heworkedthefarm.Hewasverygoodwithhorses.He’dbreakhorsesandthingslikethat.Oneofhissisters,thelast–she’sdeadnow–they’renearlyalldeadIthink–shewasworkingmuchthesame
06:00 asmymother.FirstworkedinAdelaideontherailwayrestaurant.OnmyDad’ssidetheonetheynamedmeafter,Larry,heworkedontheminesinWesternAustraliaand
06:30 they’dcontractminingandtheyweretryingtogetasmuchfootageastheycouldget,becausethemorefootagetheygotthebettertheygotpaid.Sothey’ddoitdry,insteadofhavingwatergoingthroughthedrills.Hediedat33.He’sinthecemeteryouthere.At33
07:00 hislungsweregone,choppeditwiththefinequartz–cutstheirlungstopieces.Theycallitminers’titis.It’smuchthesameIthinkasthisasbestosstuff.
07:30 Reallyitwastheirownfaultfornothavingthewater.Thewaterkeptthedustdown.Hismother–me
Dad’smother–shediedat35Ithinktoo.They’reallgone.Therewas
08:00 Ithinksevenintheirfamily.
YourunclewhowasintheLightHorse,didhetellyoumuchabouthisexperience?
No.Notmuch.Theonlythingwas,he’dtellyousometimeswhenhe’dgetonthegrogabitand–seeIasonly
08:30 ImighthavebeententhelasttimeIseenhim.Hesaidyouthoughtmoreofyourhorsethanyoudidyourselfbecauseitwashishorse.Inshellingthey’dgotothegroundandthehorse’dgodownandthey’dgetinbesidetheirhorse.Inbetweentheirlegs.
09:00 Thathesaidwasoneoftheworst–thatwasworsethanlosingyourmate.Youweren’tallowedtobringyourhorsehome.Hismategothisheadblownoffalongsideofhim.Theywerechargingatrenchorsomething.Whenyouthinkofit,withhorses,theywouldn’t
09:30 lasttenminutesintoday’swarfare.Lookwhat’shappeninginIraq.
I’dliketotalktoyouaboutIraqabitlater,butyouweresayingyouruncle’smategotkilled?
Yeah.Gothisheadblowncleanoffhesaid.Heturnedaroundtosaysomethingtohimandhewassittingonthesaddlewithnoheadon.
10:00 That’smuchthesameasupinthemountains.
Wasyouruncleinjured?
No.Hegotmalariaandsomething.Thatisafunnything.Hegotmalaria
10:30 inthedesert.Ourfellowsgotitupinthemountains.Ineverevergotmalaria.Nevergotdenghifever.Inevergotscrubtyphus.Andyetthebloodythingcouldgetintoyou,andifyoupulledthemoutlikethatyoulefttheheadinwithscrubtyphusandthatbloodyheadkeptmovingdown,but
11:00 Inevergotnoneofthem.WhenIhadwhateverthewogis,I’vegotabugoragerminmyarteriesandtheydon’tknowhowtocureitbuttheycanholdit.That’swhyI’moncortisone.ThisiswhyIbroketworibsandtwovertebraeheresevenweeksago.
11:30 Mybonesaregone,porous.I’vegotosteoporosis.Ibrokethemgettingoutofthecar.They’rerotten.
Canyoutellme,whenyouwereyoungandgoingtoschoolinClunes,whatsortofthingsdidyoulearnaboutWorldWarI?
Nothing.
12:00 Ican’teverrememberitbeingmentioned.
NotevenGallipoli?
No.NotevenGallipoli.It’sonlythelatteryears,youseethephotosoftheboatscominginandthat–that’slikeinourteens,butneverlearntnothingaboutthewar.WehadEmpireDay.
Tellusaboutthat.
Weusedtohavesportsupthemainstreet.Anditwasn’tbitumenorlikeitisnow.Itwaswhitestoneslikethatonit.They’dfootrakeitandthat.Weusedtogeta
13:00 littlebagofboiledlolliesonEmpireDay.Wewenttothefootballground.TheyhadseveneventsandIwonsixofthemagainstallcomers.Icouldn’tjumpthehurdlessoIusedtoclimboverthem.Butinobstacleraces
13:30 theyneversawachance.Iwaslikearatupadrainpipe.Iwasalways–anything,running–that,Iwasinit.I’verunallmylifeandnowIcan’ttakemewalking.Takeallmetimetowalk.Alwaysrun.Evenwiththecows.Iftherewasacowmissingandtherewasfourhundredacresoutthereandyoudidn’tknowwhichway
14:00 togo,whereshe’dgone.InrubberbootsI’dtakeoffandrunstraightacross.
Didyouplayfootball?
Football,yes.Iplayedforsixteenyears.ItrainedatSouthMelbournebeforethewar.Iusedtotrainwith–Idon’tknowwhetheryoueverheardofhim,OscarRobinson.Hewasthe
14:30 Australiansprintchampion.Icouldstaywithhimforthirtyyardsandthenhe’dpullawayfromme.Anditwasfootball,IplayedmybestfootballIthinkinthearmy.Iplayedinthe39thbattalion.Weplayedthirteenmatchesagainstallcomersandwoneveryone.
15:00 IcomedowntotheschoolandtheOTS[OfficerTrainingSchool]playedateamfromtheRiverina.
Danahers–theDanahersnowcoaching,theirfatherwasintheteamandwebeatthem.Webeattheairforce.TheyhadhalfMelbournefootballersintheir’s.
15:30 Ionlyloweredmycolours[lost]Icansayonce,anditwastoablackfella–littleAbo[Aborigine]overinSouthAustralianamedOwens.Hewastoofastforme.Thatbloodybloke.Andhecanrun.
16:00 Yep.
Tellme,wereyourfamilyreligiousatall?Didyougotochurch?
Yes.Iwasanaltarboy–meanaltarboyforaboutfiveyears.Onmyfather’ssideoneofhissisters
16:30 wasanun.Hehadabrother,aChristianbrother.HeputhissuitandtieononSunday.Wealllinedup.Wehadthefullchurchinthatchurch,theseat.
17:00 Whatsortofchurchwasit?
TheCatholicchurch.It’sherenow,abigchurch,abluestonechurch.
DidyoubelieveinGod?
Wellyes.I’lltellyoualittlething–thisisbackinarmy.AlittlefellowfromupatEuston–agrenade
17:30 blewthispartofhislegoff.Wecouldn’tstopthebleeding.Andhesaidtome,“Larry,Sarge,isthereaGod?”“WellLeswe’reledtobelievethereis.”Andhesaid,“Whyishelettingthisgoon?”Howthatsticksinyour
18:00 mind.WecomeoutofKokodaandwentdownandyouhadtocrossthisprettyfastflowingstreamandwhenhewentintothecoldwaterhewent“Huh.”Dead.Theshock.AndhecomefromupatEuston.
18:30 Wehadoneblokethatstopped.Theypulledhimoutaswewereallpackedtogooverthemountains.Fifteen.Hecameback.ThelastIheardthathe’dgoneblindwithglaucomaorsomething.
19:00 Wherewerewe?
WeweretalkingaboutGod.
Wedon’tgotochurch,butyou’vegottobelieveinsomething.There’sallthisbusinessgoingonwithhomosexualsandalltherestofit.Lesbiansandthingslikethat
19:30 andatheists.Ithinkthat’swhat’sgonewrongwiththeworld.They’velosttheirfaith–whetheritgoesbacktoyourparentsorwhetherit’sjustsomephenomenonthat’sgoingonthatthey’ve
20:00 forgotabouttheirreligion.Butyoucantakeitforgranted,don’tmatterwhatitis,there’ssomebodymakingaquidoutofit.Andthat’sIthinkthewholetrouble.Thepriestsusedtobeaspoorasachurchmouse.Alltheotherreligions–
20:30 noneofthemareonthebreadline.AndwhatwentonwiththeRedCrosswithallthatmoneythatwasraisedjustlately.Ialwaysthoughttheyweredecoratingsomeonefortheirgoodvolunteerworkandallthisbuttheydiditfornothing.
21:00 GoodGodthey’regettingaboutsixtyorseventythousanddollarsayearjusttodoit.Andallthatmoneythatdisappeared–there’ssomethingwrong.It’seithergreedor–wellitmustbebecauseyoutakethesebigfirmsthat’sgettingjumpedupfromtwomilliontosixmillionorsomething.
Allright,we’regettingalittlebitoffthetrackhere.
21:30 No.Asabonus.Wellyougobackinourday,theblokethatwasgetting–whatImeanhewasgettingtwentypound,hewasthemillionaire.Nowyougobackdowntotheworker–Ithinkthisisourtroublenow.There’stoomuchmoney.
22:00 Something’sgottobedonetoholdit.
Inyourday,duringtheDepression,therewasn’tmuchmoney.
No.
Howdidyourfamilygetby?
Mainlywehadourown,asIsaid,cow.Thatwasmilkandbutter.Wehadourownvegetables,grewallourown.WehadWASDOUBLEQUOTECHOOKs.
22:30 Iusedtopluckitgoinguptothisoldlady’splaceonmywaytogettwobob.Andtwobobwasbigmoney.
Didyouevergohungry?
No.That’sonething.Therewasalwayssomethingonthetable.
Werethereotherpeoplethatweren’tdoingsowell?
Yes.
23:00 Therewas,Ithinkmostofmymateswerepoor.Someofthemwerealotbetteroffthanus,becausetheyweregettinganarmypensionfromthefirstwar.Whenyouthinkofit
23:30 alotoffunnythingshappened.Onebloke,StantonElfin,hisfatheronlyhadonelegoronefootorsomething.Buttheyusedtotiptheirrubbishoverthebackofthehill.WeusedtoliveupthehillfromtheFords.Theyusedtotipitoverinabitofaholethere.
24:00 AndIfoundafoot.Arubberfootitwas.Hemusthavethrownitout.Gotanewfoot.Itookittoschoolinabrownpaperbagandputitontheteacher’sdesk.Talkabouttrouble.Everybodyhastobekeptinschooltilltheyfoundoutwhodidit.InthefinishIhadtoownupitwasme.
24:30 Igotthatmanycuts[hitswiththecane]atschool.Butthisblokethatgot120thousand[dollarscompensation]orsomethingforgettingthecaneatschool,I’dbeamillionairenowifIcouldhavegotit.EverytimehehitmeIgrinnedathim.Anditwashurting,butIwouldn’tleton.Wouldn’tgivehimthesatisfactionthathewashurtingme.
25:00 Therewasonlyoneteacherthatreallyhurt–Ididn’tknowwhethermyheadwascutofforwhat–he’dhityouovertheheadwiththeedgeofacaneruler.Andithurt.InthefinishIusedtogetthestaggersandhedidn’tknowwhetherIwasgoingto
25:30 gounconsciousornot.ButIneverevermetupwithhimagaineither.JustaswellIdidn’t.Iusedtobeveryquicktempered.Iwouldneverletanybodystandoverme.That’swhatIseetodaywithallthisbullyingthat’sgoingon.
Didyouhaveanygirlfriends?
Girlfriends?Yes.
26:00 BeforeImetmywifeIwasengaged.Butthisbloke–hewasanairforcefellowandhewasstationedinMelbourneandhewasseeingherwhileIwasaway–andItoldhertocutitout.AnyhowIwasuphereatAlburyandweusedtosometimesbribesomebody
26:30 tocomedown.Andhewasthere.Andthatwasit.Isaid,“That’sthefinish.”ShecometothestationwhenIwasgoingaway.Isaid,"It’sover"AndI’veneverseenorheardofhersince.
27:00 DuringtheDepressionweretheremanypeoplewhocameupfromthecitylookingforwork?
TheyhadahutouttheroadoutherebetweenClunesandtheMaryboroughClunesRoadforthetrampstosleepin.Therewasalwaystrampsontheroad.
27:30 Theydidn’tstopbecauseitwasnogoodstopping.Therewasnothinghere.TheCouncils,theyhadfellowscleaningtheguttersandthingslikethat,buttherewasnohandoutslikethey’regettingtoday.
Whatdidthetrampslooklike?Howdidtheydress?
Someofthem
28:00 wouldhaveasuitonthatthey’dhadonforyearsandtheyhadtheirblanketrolledupinaswag,abillycan–thosethathadsuits,theywerewelldressed.
28:30 Hardtimeshadhitthem.Theyprobablyneverhadaworkingpairoftrousers.Likethemtrousersyougoton,weusedtocallthemshearer’spants.That’sthesortofpants,denims,they’reworkingclothes,likeshearingandtheyhadaflannel.Theyshearedinaflannel.Nowtheyshearanditsanathleticsingletandtheydon’thave
29:00 shortsbecausethebloodythistlesinthegrasshere.Buttheywereshearers’pants.
Theyhadnicecleanshearers’pantson?Likeme,becausefortherecordI’msmartlydressed.
Yeah.Theykeptthemclean.AlotofthemIthinkwentfromone
29:30 towntoanotherandyoucoulddrawsustenance.Idon’tknowhowmuchitwas–sevenandsixaweekorsomething.Butthatwouldkeeptheminbread.InthewesttheygobackwhenIwasakidIcanrememberlittlethings;
30:00 abunchofAboriginals’dcomeupthroughthebush.Mymotheralwayshadabigpotandalltheteaandthatlikenowwhenyouemptytheteapotinsteadofthrowingitoutshe’dtipitinthispot.They’dcomeandwantteaandsugarandshe’dpourtheboilingwaterbackonthispot
30:30 andfilluptheirbillyandgivethemabitofsugarandawaythey’dgo.Theywerehappy.Butthey’dbewaitingtheretogetitreadyinsideandI’dbeoutamongstthem.Theyhadkidswiththemandthat.Andtheyonlyhadashirton.AndIcanrememberstandingasifIwalkedouttherenow,lookingup
31:00 undertheirshirt,asplainasifithappenedtenminutesago.
Lookingupundertheirshirts?
Yeah.Seewhattheyhadundertheirshirts.That’salltheyhadon.Ashirt.
Themenandthewomen.
Thewomenhadaloosesortofdresson.Butthemenonlyhadashirt.Yeah.Asabloodykid.
31:30 (BREAK)
32:00 DidyourfatherstayandworkduringtheDepression,managetokeepabitofmoneycomingin?
Yeah.Wewereworkinginthecreek.Asyoucamedownthere’sanoldhousebeenburntdownthere.There’saminingcompanyboughtit.Ithinktheybeenconned.Theyboughtit.Theywanttotreatthesands.
32:30 Thesand’sgone.
Youweretellingusaboutyourfatherworking.
Workinginthecreek.Allthesesands,that’swhat’sgotawayfromthefactorythatusedtocrushthequartz.Therewasbigpilesofit.It’sallgoneontofootball
33:00 groundsandroadsandeverything,cartedawayfortyyearsago.They’vebeenlookingforit.Theydrilledallthewayalongit.Butmefatherknewwherethebatterieswereandwherethetailendsusedtorunintothecreek.Andwherethey’veminedinthecreekonthealluvialthere’sthecollaroftheshaft.
33:30 Whenthesandsrunoverthetopoftheshaft,anygoldoramalgamorquicksilver,usedtofallinthetopsoftheseholes.Itusedtoactasaripple.Wellweusedtosluiceallthat.Wehadasluice.Andyoupumpedthewaterovertoworkthesluice.NowadaysIsupposethey’dhaveapumpwithamotororsomethingonitand
34:00 we’dgetalivingoutofit.That’smainlyhowwesurvivedthroughthedepressionwithtucker.Yougotenoughforteaandsugarandthingslikethat.Icanrememberthegrocergivingmymothertwopoundsofflourandpoundofsugarand
34:30 you’dputanorderintothegrocerandthegrocer’dcall.He’dhaveahorseandcartandhe’dbringintheboxofgroceriesandonthegrocerieswouldbealittlebagofboiledlollies.Thatwasyourrewardforbeingacustomer.
35:00 We’dhaveadayoutwhenwewenttoBallarat.That’swhenhewentandhesoldthegold.Heusedtosmeltitathomeintheforge.Andhehadawatchchainthathegotmadefromgoldthatheworkedtoshowoverinthewest.Itwasavaluablechain.
35:30 Thingswereprettyslackinthecreekandheputthechaininthecrucible.Whenhelookedtoseeifitwasreadyitwasn’tinthecrucible.Ithadgone–aholehadburntthroughthebottomofthecrucibleintoalltheashesintheforge.Wellwecrushedeverybitofcharcoalinthatforge.
36:00 Therewasabouttwograinsthathedidn’trecoverintheweightofthatchain.Butthatchainkeptusgoingforawhile.Itwasabeautifulchain.Heusedtohaveitacrossonewaistcoatpockettotheotherwiththewatchononeside.Idon’tknowwhathehad
36:30 ontheotherside.Iknowhehadalittlepocketknife.
NowasthethirtieswentonandtherewasawarbrewinginEuropedidyouknowmuchaboutit,didyoureadthenewspaperorlistentotheradio?
Yeah.Itwasmainlythepaper.Theshelling
37:00 andsoon…wedidknowaboutthelandingatGallipoli.Thatwasprinted.ButallHitler’s,theriseofHitlerandthat,thatusedtobeinthepaper.WhatHitlerwasdoingandwhathewasn’tdoing.Wehad
37:30 awirelessbutweonlyturneditonatcertainhours.Onewastoget‘Dad’nDave’[radioserial]Iknowthat.Ithinkmemotherusedtohear‘BlueHills’[serial]thatwasonatdinnertime.Itwentforyearsandyearsandyears.But
38:00 otherwisethebatteries’dgoflat.Icanremembergoinguptotheplace,thetwoofus,withakerosenetintogettwogallonsofpetrolfortheoldTinLizzy[Ford]andshe’dgetlowdowninpetrolandhecouldn’tgetupthehill,he’dturnheraroundandbackitup.Becausethepetrolmusthavebeenwherethepipe
38:30 wasinthetank.Butitwasagoodoldcar.IremembergoingtoBallarat.Thefirstrailwaycrossingout
there.Thewholefamilywasinthere.Theoldmansaid,“Lookatthat,someone’swheelgoinguptheroad.”Itwasourfrontwheel.Flewoff.
39:00 Onthebumpontherailwayline.
YouweresayingaboutHitler,didyouhearmuchaboutwhathewasdoingandwhatwashappeninginEurope?
Ohtheawfulthingsthathewasdoing.Ifyouwereluckyenoughtohearonthewirelessitwasbetter.
39:30 Therewasnotelevisionoranything.
Whatwashedoing?
HewasgettingridoftheJewsandthat.Howtheyweredisappearing.They’dbetherewhentheywenttobedandinthemorningthefamily’dbegoneorthemenfolkwouldbegone.
40:00 Whenhewasgoingthroughthetowns,buggeringupallthetowns.Iseeabitinthepaperhowsomeone,oneofthebombersquadron,wassayingtheDresdenshouldneverhavebeenknockeddown.
40:30 Itwasreallytitfortat.TheygiveDresdenwhatDresdengiveEngland.
Tape3
00:35 NowLarrycanyoutelluswhatEmpiremeanttoyouatthetimeinthe1930swhenyouwereayoungchap?
WellitwastheKingthen.1930.KingGeorge.Weusedtoeverymorning
01:00 atschoolwe’dbealllineduptosalutetheflagwhichIreckonshouldstillbe.Thisiswherethey’velostalotoftraditionanddiscipline.You’dsalutetheflagandmylad
01:30 heusedtoheadofftoschool–it’snotthatfar–we’dbeatthedairyandathalfpastsevenhe’dgoofftoschool.WegotanotetosaycouldwegetVernofftoschoolabitearlier?Sowesaidtohim,“Areyoubeinglate?”Andhesaid,“No.”
02:00 “MrsSwantonsaidyou’regettingtherelate.”“No.ThismorningtheywerejustgoinginasIgotthere.”Butthey’dbeentoplaytime.Thefirstsessionhadgone.He’dwanderupoverthehillandsomebody’d
02:30 beloadingacowinatruckorsomethingupthereandhe’dsitdownandwatchthemloadit.Thenhe’dgetabitfurtherandhe’dhaveayarntosomeoldladythatwasatthegate.Thisiswherehe’slate.Wellwegothimstraightenedoutthathewentinandfinished.ThenheusedtohavetogoandcatchthetraintogotoMaryborough.Theytookthehigher
03:00 elementaryclassesawayfromhere.It’saprettybigschool.Butnowit’sstillgotalotofkids.
Soyou’rewellandtrulyfortheBritishEmpire?
Yeah.Ialwayswillbe.Anycountrythat’s
03:30 gonetotherepublichavehadtrouble.There’salwayssomebodythatwantstodosomethingdifferent.It’sthesamehere.LookatthetroubletheygotintheLaborPartynow.They’redivided.Onelot’sgonetotheleftandonelot’sgonetotheright.
04:00 Withunionism–Ilostunionismwhenwewereinthemountains.Theywentonstrike.Theywouldn’tloadtheboatsupintheBrisbanetogouptothetroops.Wehadnothingtoeatupthereforweeksinthemountains.Itwaseitheronthewharf
04:30 atBrisbaneorontheboatandyoucouldn’tbloodygetitunloaded.Whenitgetsthatbadthatthey’reonlyrobbingtheirmates,probablytheiruncleorevencouldbetheirfatherthatwasfightingatthetime.Theirvalues
05:00 havechanged.Look,lastnight,therewasamobofgirlsstormedPointHedlandorsomewhere.Theywantedtogoinasvisitorstothecamp.Youknow,atPointHedlandDetention[Centre].Don’tknowwhat’sgonewrongwiththeworld.Neversatisfied.
05:30 Whatmotivatedyoutojointhemilitia[Citizens’MilitaryForce]initially?
Whatmotivatedme?Wellitwassomethingthatwhenwewerekidsplayingitwasalwayssoldiersandifitwasn’tthemitwascowboys–
06:00 shootingandthat.Ilovedanythingthatwasachallenge,it’smuchthesameasplayingfootball.You
wantedtobethebest.Andthat’swhatIfoundoutthatIsaidrightwhenIwentinthearmy.Itwas
06:30 fivebobaday.AndIsaid,“Howmuchisittobeacorporal?”Itwasseven.SoIsaid,“WellifI’mgoingtobeinhereIwanttogetasmuchpleasureandsomethingthatI’vegotwhenIfinishup.”InevereverthoughtthatI’dgetkilledwhenIwentintothearmy.That
07:00 wasthelastthing.Theonlythingthatusedtocreepintoyourmindwasthatyoumightgethitinthelegsandyoucouldn’tgetout.Butasfordying,nothatneverenteredmyhead.Andyetmymen,rightalongsideme,wasgettingkilled.Whether
07:30 thatlittlefellowuptherewasprotectingyouornotIdon’tknow.Buttwoorthreewhatyoucouldsaybadscares,buttheydidn’twantme.Theyweresaying,“Youcan’tkillbadweed.Youcanknockthemdownbutthey’llkeepcomingup.”Wellthat’smylife.
08:00 Theycanknockmedownbuttheycan’tkeepmedown.Ihopeitstillkeepsgoing.
Tellusaboutthefirstdayyoujoinedupthemilitia?
Wellwegoinandweallsatdown.Itwasdinnertime.Itwasstew.WellIlikestew.Alwayslikedstew.
08:30 Someoftheflasherkidstheywerepickingitoverwithafork.Iatemine.I’dbeentoldbyoldersoldiers,“Neverifyou’rehavingcoldmeatneverturnitover,justeatit.”Ialwaysrememberedthat.Getit.Eatit
09:00 asquickasyoucanbecauseyouneverknowwhensomethingmightdroponit.AndI’vealwaysdonethat.Getyourtuckerintoyouincasesomethinghappens–whichithappenedmanytimes.Like,you’dbejustsittingdownandashell’dcomeover.
09:30 Alltheseonesthatcamefromthe5thbattalionandthehigher,differentschools–youalwaysweartheschooltie,yougetsomewherewithwhatevertieyouwear.Ineverfoundthat.IalwaysfoundIcouldmakefriendswithanybody.
10:00 Butiftheytrodonmytoestheyknewtheyhadabloodyenemy.Andthat’salwaysbeenmypolicy.I’vealwayslookedatI’mrightuntilyoucanprovethatI’mwrong.ThenIwillacceptthat.Butifsomeone’stryingtoramsomethingdownyourneckthatyouknowinyourmindisnotright,wellI’llargueonit.
10:30 Ilikeyouforawhile.
Whichbattaliondidyoujoinwhenyoufirstjoinedthemilitia?
The8thbattalion.ThatBallaratBattalion.
Whatwasthetraininglike?Tellusaboutthat?
Thetraining?WellIthinkIlearntmoretherethanIlearntintrainingattherestofthebattalionsbecause
11:00 ofrifledrills–seewedidn’tknowanyofthemthings.Youcoulddoarifledrillandyoupulleddownamachinegun,putitbacktogetheragain.Anyofthosethings.Youworkedouttactics.Wellthatwasopenwarfare.You’regoingtoattackthathilloverthere.Butyoucouldseethathill.
11:30 Wherewewentyoucouldn’tseemorethantenyardsinfrontofyou.Thatwasprobablylookingalongthetrack.
Wereyouagoodshot?
Agoodshot?I’vealwaysbeenagoodshot.Always.Icouldknocktheeyeoutofarabbitatfiftyyardswitha22any
12:00 timeItried.AndIreckonweshouldhavehada22inthemountains.Youcouldcarrymoreammunition–alotlighter.The303ortheThompsonsubmachinegunthere’sanounceofleadineveryround–thatgetsheavyafterafewhours.
12:30 Butyouonlycouldseesofar.Itwasjustrightinyourrangefora22.Andthey’llkillyoujustthesameasabigcalibreweaponwill.Onlyabigcalibreweapondoesmoredamage.Ifyouhitsomebodywithasubmachinegun,don’tmatterwhereyouhithimyouknockhimover.
13:00 Becausethere’ssuchaforcethat’dhityou.Yougetanounceofleadlikethathittingyouitcanmakeaprettybigholetoo.
Whatsortofweaponswereyou…?
IhadaThompsonsubmachinegun.
Howmuchtrainingdidyouhave?
Onthesubmachinegun?Verylittle.Verylittle.
13:30 WhenwewentintothemountainsinMoresbywestillhadthefirstwarmachineguns.WehadtheoldLewisgun.ThefirstrifleIhadwasa1914.303.Theyneverhadthematerials
14:00 either.Idon’tthinktheyexpectedsomuchtakenon–howmanytroopsweregoingaway.Thegrenadeswerethesameastheyhadinthefirstwar.Theartilleryusedtobepulledbyhorses.
14:30 Butindownhereespeciallywhenwewentintothe39thfromthe8thbattalion–Idid–buttherewasallthemilitiabattalionstheydrewtoformthe39th.We’ddothoseroutemarches;
15:00 theycallthembivouacs,youknowyou’dliveoutinthepaddock.Iusedtolikethatbecauseitwasintheopen.ThenafterI’dbeenworkinginMelbournefortwoyearsitwasaholiday–fairdinkum–youdidn’thavethathustle.I’dhavedied
15:30 ifIstayedinMelbourne.ButImean,youneverhadfreedomwhenyou’reintheopen.Notwhenyou’redownthereinMelbourne.You’reworkingtoatimetable.Youknockoff.Youknowyou’vegottocatchatramatacertaintime.Oryou’vegottoifyou’regonnagosomewhereyou’vegottobeatthestation
16:00 togetitandthenyougottowait.LikeItoldthefellowyesterdayatthedoctor’sIsaid,“Howmuchofourtimedowespendwaiting?”Don’tmatterwhereyougo–yougotothedoctor’s,yougottowait.Yougotothebank,yougotothepictures,you’vegottowait,formaqueue.WellthosedaysinMelbournewasallqueues.Itwaswait
16:30 wait.WellI’mnothere–yourlifetime’sgonejustwaiting.
Sohowdidyougetfromthe8thbattaliontothe39th?
Theycalledforvolunteers.WewereatDarleyatthetime.Theyputusonthetrainandwewentto
17:00 Caulfield.That’swheretheyformedusintogroupsandthenwenttoDarleyatBacchusMarsh.Wewentintothereandwewereallottedtocompanies.IcamefromAcompanyinthe8th.IwenttoA
17:30 Companyinthe39th.TheothersoutofACompany,IthinktherewasaboutsixwenttotheACompanyinthe39thfromthe8thbattalion.Ofcoursethereweresomebimbos[incompetents].
18:00 Wehadtwoblokesthatshouldneverbloodywellhavebeeninthefirstplaceinthemilitiainanycase.
Why’sthat?
Theywerenoncompus.
Whatdoyoumeanbythat?
Wellyou’dtellthemsomethingandthey’dsay,“Corporal,whatdoesthatmean?”
18:30 Onebloke,he’supinthemountainsandhesaidtothesarmajor,“YouknowsarmajorIdon’ttakemepantsdownwhenIwanttogotothetoilet.”“OhJimmy,that’sdirty.”“Ohno.Ijustgolikethat”anditsplitaroundherearoundanduptothebackanditwasliketwolegshehadon.
19:00 JumboHudson.HecomefromupatRainbowupintheMallee.Youusedtofeelsorryforhim.Theyusedtogivehimhell.Iftheyweretodigaholeforthebloodydunnyhe’dbesenttodoit.Wellthislittleblokewiththetrousers–
19:30 atKokodaIputhimintopositionandIsaidtohim,“NowJimmyifanybodycomesupthatbankthereyoujustpullthepinoutofagrenadeandrollitdownontopofhimorthem.”Sotheybrokethroughthere.Andafterwe’d
20:00 pushedthembackoutorkilledthem,Jimmycomeuptome,hesaid,“Sarge,theydidn’tcomeupthere.Theycameupabitfurtheralong.”Andhedidn’tdonothingaboutit.Hejustpulledhisheadintheholehehad.See,younearlyhadtowriteamessageforthem.Theyshouldn’thavebeenthere.Itwascruelontheir
20:30 partandworseonthearmy’spartthembeingthere.Theyshouldhavebeenmedicallydone.Idon’tknowwhathappenedtothem.JumbofromRainbow–I’minhospitalandthefellainthebedoppositemesaidhecamefromRainbowandIsaid,“DoyouknowafellowbythenameofHutchinsupthere?”
21:00 “OldJumbo?”Idon’tknowwhathisothernamewas–Jack,Jimorsomething.“Yeah”hesaid,“heusedtoworkforme.”Isaid,“Ishestillalive?”Hesaid,“No.HewenttoMelbourne.Hemetasheiladownthere,gotmarried,walkedacrosstheroadandataxihithimandkilledhim.”Itjusthowthingsworkoutinlife.AndIdon’tknowwhathappenedto
21:30 JimmyMariner,whetherheeversurvivedit.Outofthe8thBattalion–Bertiewaswiththe8th.Didhetellyou?ButIdon’tknowIthinkhemighthavebeenwithCCompany.Butupthere–
22:00 howweallgotsplitup!Seecompanieswereholdingbattalionpositionsandyouweren’talltogether.
Whatwastheprocessinvolvedinyougettingfromthe8thbattaliontothe39th?Theyaskedforvolunteers?Whydidyouvolunteer?
22:30 Whentheysaidthattheywereforminganewunittogoaway,wellIthought,Iwanttogoaway.Sothisisachancetogo.Ivolunteered.Theydidn’twantmetogofromthe8th.Isaid,“It’sonethingortheother.Iwanttogo.”
23:00 Theyletmego.Fromthereonwewereallottedandthosethatwentfromthe8thbattalionIthinkfiveofourblokesgotkilled.
23:30 FiveoftheeightfellasthatwasincomingtoAcompanygotkilled.Theyweredecentblokestoo.Sensiblefellas.Probablytwosensible.That’showyougethit.
24:00 Theyseemedkeen.Thewholebattalionseemedkeen.Therewassomethingaboutitthatwasdifferenttothe8th,the39th.Whetheritwasmorecomradeshipor…coursethe8thbattaliontheycamefromeverywhere.Bendigotothe8th.
24:30 Wasthe39thbattalionpurelyVictorians?
Yeh.Most.WasonlywhenwegotthereinforcementthatwehadsomeWesternAustralians.WellIfeltverysorryforthem.Theywereputtingbullets,303shellsinoneatatime,intheirrifles.They’dneverbeenshownhowtopoketheclipin.
25:00 They’dcomefromsomeworkbattalion.Soreallywedidahellofagoodjobwithrenegades.That’swhyweprobablysurvived.Onelookedaftertheother.
Wherewasthe39thbattalionbased?
25:30 Therewasno39thbattalion.
No,whenitwasformed,whereweretheyforming?AtDarley?
Yeah.AtDarley.That’swhereweformed,atDarley.TheyhadareunionatDarleythisyearorsomething.Wehadapaperthatcomesout,TheGoodGuts.Itgetsfourorfiveeditionsayear.
26:00 Theywriteaboutwhat’shappenedintheunit.TheyhadareunionatDarley.There’snothingleftthere.There’sonlyaplaquethere.Theyhadabarbecueorsomething.Therewas….unitsthereatDarleywhenwewentin.And
26:30 weweren’tallowedtogotothecanteen.Hellofablueonenight.That’swherewegotourbaptismoffire.FightingtheblokesfromtheAIF[AustralianImperialForce]units.
YougotintoafightwithanAIFguy?
Yep.Heldourowntoo.
Whatdidtheysay?Whathappenedinthere?
Theyreckonedtheydidn’twantChockos[Chocolatesoldiers–militia]
27:00 -thetramwaystriedtostopmefromgoing.Isaid,“Toolate.”
DidyouliketheAIF?
Ohyeah.IknewthosethatwentfromClunesthere.
27:30 Ikneweveryoneofthem.Buttheygotthatopinionthattheywerebetterthanyou.See,Ithinkthewholelotofthetroublewasfromthehigherechelonofthearmy–nearlyallourofficershadbeentoDuntroonor–
28:00 theydidn’tknowhowtohandlemen.AlotofthemwereFirstWardiggers.Theywerereallytoooldtobeinchargeofexuberantyoungblokes.Stillatit.WehadabignightlastnightIsuppose.
28:30 Let’snotdivergetoomuch.WiththeAIFchaps,whathappenedinthatblue?Whatwasitover?TheycalledyouChockos.
Itfinishedupanywaythatwewereallowedtogotothecanteen.
29:00 Because–andyouknowthemadstupidpartaboutit–someofthemthatwerethere–IneverwenttherebecauseIdidn’tdrink.IneversmokedandIneverdrankwhenIwentintoarmy.ButsmokedwhenIgotuptothehighlands.BecausetheonlyreasonIsmokedwastokeepthemosquitoes
29:30 offyourfaceatnighttime.Theybitme.Inevergotmalaria.Butthe–allmymatesdid.Sleepingintentsandwewereindugoutsatonestage.
30:00 ButatDarleyitwasbetterwhenwewentoutonthebivouacsbecausewewereawayfromthemfellows.Acoupleofthemblokesthatwehadthefightwithcametouseventuallyasreos[reinforcements]andit
waslikea
30:30 smackintheearbecausetheyhadtocomelowerthemselvestofightwithChockos.ButasthewholethingturnedouttheChockosdidabetterjobthanquiteafewoftheAIFbattalions.Theyweregoodsoldiersinthe
31:00 openwarfare,buttheywerenogoodwhentheyhitthejungle.Theyweretoldthesameasus.ThattheywouldbefightingtheJapsandthey’reonlylittleblokes.WellthefirstfellowthatIseenfacetofaceIlookedupathimandofcourseI’veshrunkabitfromthemdays.Ihadtolookupathim.Ireckonhewouldbesixfootsix.Hewasabig
31:30 man.Andtheyweretheirleadingsoldiers.Theyweretheonesthatwerebeenthroughalltheplacestheytookthem.Andthentheordinarybattalionsfollowedthemup.Theywerelikethemarines.ThatwasthesametroopsthatwemetatKokoda.Finishing
32:00 thelastofthemtheymusthavebeendifferenttroopsthatcameinlaterinNewGuinea.
DidyoucomeacrossanyAmericanservicemeninBallarat,Clunes?
NotinBallarat.IstruckthemupinCeline.ThatwasupinQueensland.
32:30 IstruckafewoftheminMoresby,butIstruckafairfewoftheairforce.Weusedtogodowntothedromeandhelpcleantheplanesoutwhentheycomebackandyou’dnearlyalwayswashoutthereargunnersoutoftheplane,helpthemtake
33:00 bombsouttotheplanes.ThatwaswhentheCoralSeaBattlewason.Theyweretold–IheardthebriefingofwhentheMarauderswentout.Theyweretoldtobombthem.Theyhadtolandonthedeck.Andtheywentdownlowandalotofthebombsblewuptheirownplanesintheair.TheystoppedtheJapfleet.
33:30 TheyslingoffabouttheYanks[Americans]andthat.Iwouldn’tbetalkingtoyoutodayifithadn’tbeenforAmerica.TheysaidbuttheywereonlyretaliatingforwhathappenedatPearlHarbour–Idon’tcarewhathappened.Theysavedus.WhetheritwastheJapsbombingawayanyoftheirplaces.
34:00 Thatwasthem.Theyhadthemanpowerandtheyhadthegunpower.Wherewe’dfireoneshotthey’dfirefullmagazines.Andthatwasmuchtotheirdetrimenttoo.Becausethelongeryoufired,thatwasgivingthemachancetogetontoyour
34:30 position.Oneshotisveryhardtopickup.
Didyouhaveanyrun-inswiththeAmericansailors?
No.Ineverhadno–butItellyouwhat,whenIcamebacktodotheschoolIhadalotofJapbullets,shells,fullbullets.Ihadnomoney.
35:00 IthinkImighthavehadtwoquidwhenIleft[Port]Moresbybecauseyouwasn’tallowedtotakemoneyoff.Theywantedthemoneyontheislandsee.IcouldhavedrawnitwhenIgotbackhere.ButIlandedandIhadJapmoneyandIwassellingittotheYanksinacafé
35:30 atTownsville.TwodollarsforashellandfiveforaJapnote,aYennote.
Fivepound?
No.Fivedollars.Americandollars.IwishedI’dhavegotalotmore.
36:00 Couldhave.Theairforcemadethemoneyoutofthem,theAustralianairforce.Theyweremakingswordsoutofspringsteeloutofcarsprings.They’dturnthemoutandthey’dgetthem
36:30 -ohIdon’tknowwhetherchromedornot,theylookedgood.AndtheyusedtosellthemtotheYanks.Godknowswhattheyweregettingforthem.
HaveyouseenanybrawlswithAussiesandYanks?
IseenoneinBrisbanewhenwewerecomingdownonceonleave.Wewerewarnedtokeepoutofit.
Whathappenedthere?
TheYankeeMPs[militarypolice].ImetonewhenIcame
37:00 downfirstandhewasanMPandhesaid,“Wehittokill”withabaton.Itdidn’tmatterwhoitwas–theirblokesorwhoeverwasintostopthefight,theyhittokill.AndIbelieveit.They’dknockthemdown.Theirownblokes.Didn’tmatterwhoitwas.
37:30 Whetheritwascivilianstryingtostopitorwhat.Butthesheilas[Australiangirls]–thewaythesheilastookafterthem–buttherewasonlyonethingwhenyouseeit.Itwasthedough[money].SeetheYankshadplentyofdough.
SoalotofgirlslikedtheAmericans.
Thedough.Afterthemoney.
Howdidyoureacttothat?
Didn’tworrymebecause
38:00 Ididn’tlikethetypeofsheilasthatwerechasingthem.IwasthesergeantoftheguardatCelineandwehadtoguardthepicturetheatreandfirstwehadtodropofftwosoldiers–twoAustralians–atthebrothel.TherewasabrothelinCelinethere.AndwehadtodroptwosoldiersofftokeeptheYanksout.
38:30 AsIdroppedthemoffshesaid,“There’soneonthehousewhenyoupickupyourguard.”AndIsaidtothem,“Howmanyblokes’dgothroughthere?”Hesaid,“Ireckonjustroughlytherewasahundredandfifty”went
39:00 throughthebrothel.Andshewasdoingittoeducateherdaughter.HerdaughterwasgoingtocollegeinBrisbaneandshesaid,“Listenfellas,
39:30 youdon’tknowmyoccupation,don’tsaynothingaboutit.”Becauseherdaughterdidn’tknowhowshewasgettingeducated.Yeah.Yvonnewashername.
Tape4
00:46 YoumentionedbeforetherewasafightatBrisbane.Canyoutellusabitmoreaboutthatfight?
Ican’ttellyoutoomuchbecause
01:00 wekeptoutofit.
Didyouseeithappen?
Weseenthematit.ThewaythemMPswereswingingthebatonsitwasn’tagoodplacetobe.
Didyouseethefightstart?
No.ItstartedinthebarIthink.Andwhenitspilledout,bloodyAussiesheilastearinginto
01:30 theAussieblokesbecausetheywantedtheYanks.
ButwhyweretheytearingintotheAussies?
BecausetheyreckonedthattheAussiesweretoogoodfortheYanks.Balancingtheledger.Buttheway
02:00 theAustralianwomenchasedthoseYankees–they’dbebigblackfellastoo.BigNegroes.ButnowIknowwhatitwas.Itwasallmoney.TheyhadthedoughandtheAussieshadfivebobadaysoldierscouldn’tspendmuch.Itwasthesamedownhere.WewereawaywhentheYankswereinBallarat.See,theyhadabigcamphere
02:30 inBallarat.Therewasalotofthemdumpedtherefortheairforce.TheybuiltadromeuphereatMaryboroughtotakethewarplanes.Buttheybuiltitinthewrongplace.ItwasMaryborough,Queenslandwherethedromewastobebuilt.There
03:00 wasalotofairmenandthathangingaround.Wewereaway.Weneverseenthem.Ihadamatehewasengagedtoagirlandwhenhecamebackshewasgone.ShemarriedaYankandwenttoAmericaandshe’sonherthirdhusbandnowoverthere.
03:30 Nevercomeback.ThefirstoneleftherwhenhegottoAmericaandthesecondonedidn’tlastlong.Idon’tknowhowshe’sgoingwiththethirdone.ButIseenhersisterattheschoolreunionthatIwentto.OnlyonethatI’dbeentosinceIleftschool.ImetoneofheryoungersistersandIaskedher,“Where’sIda?”Shesaid,
04:00 "She’sinAmerica,butshe’saveryunhappygirl.”Orwoman.
Weweretalkingaboutwhenyoufirstjoinedupwiththe39th,canyoutellmewhatsortoftrainingyoudid?
Wedidverylittle.
Didyoudoanyjungletrainingatall?
No.Thatreallywasashocktous,toalltheothertroopsthathadgoneup.
04:30 Whatwespentmostofourtimeonwaseitherdiggingtrenchesorputtingupbarbedwire
entanglementsalongMoresbyorunloadingboats.
Okay.ButI’mtalkingaboutbeforeyouleftAustralia…?
Mainlyroutemarches.
05:00 Downthere,haveyoueverbeenaroundBacchusMarsh?There’sgorgestherethattakeadayto
05:30 climboutofthem.Andstinkinghot.Butthatwasallright,theheat.That’swhereweweregoing.BecauseMoresbywasveryhot.AndMoresbywasverydry.Itwaslikethroughthedroughtthisyear.Idrinkverylittlewater.
06:00 They’dsaytome,drinkplentyofwater.ButIhaveaglass–mainlyIcanguaranteethatIhaveaglassofwateronFridays,Fridaymornings.BecauseItakemedicationonFridaymorning.ItakeAprosmac.AndIknowthatI’vehadaglassofwater.OtherwiseIdon’tdrinkmuchwateratall.
SoitwouldhavebeenquitegoodclimatetrainingbeingatBacchusMarsh?
Yeah.Because
06:30 shegothot.Speciallyinthegorgesandthat.Veryhot.Wewereluckythatwedidn’tgetrainwithitbecausethehumiditywouldhavebeenthesameasupthere.Thatwasalot.It’sthesamewithupontheTablelands.Ifwe’dgonetotheTablelandsstraightupwecouldhavedonejungletrainingtherebecausethere’ssomeoftheroughestcountryupthatway,
07:00 likejungle,asupintheislands.Butalltheythoughtaboutwasroutemarches.Ithinkitwasmainlytogettheunittogether.Tomakeitaunit.
Sohowdidyoufindit?
07:30 Gettingonwiththeotherblokesinyourunit?
Igetalongwithanyone.Talktoanybody.JustsayyesterdayIgointothedoctor’ssurgeryandit’sfullthere.They’resittinglikethis,theyare.AndIsays,“Youpeoplehaveyoueverthoughthowmuchyourlifetimegoesinwaiting?”
08:00 Wellitwasdifferent.Igotthemalltalkingaboutitandthat.I’ddothesameonatrain.You’dbeonacarriageandthey’dbealllookingboredtobuggeryandI’dgetthemtalking.NotmanythatIcouldn’t.
Soyougotonwellwiththeblokes?
Yeah.Alwaysgotonwellwiththem.
Whatsortofguyswerethey?Weretheyasimilarbackgroundtoyourself?
Yeah.
08:30 Ohno,notallofthem.Butmostofmyplatoonwerecountryblokes.WhentherewasanyreoscomeupI’dsay,“Whoarethey?”Iprobablywantedtworeinforcementstobringmynumbersup.Imighthavewantedthree–“Where’dtheycomefrom?”“Ohsoandso.”One,thefirstone,theysaid,“HewasintheLighthorse.”
09:00 “Washe?I’llhavehim.”AnotheronecamefromAmphitheatre.Wellthat’sjustupthelineuphere.“I’llhavehim.”Theywereboth–onewasanextragoodsoldier.Theotherfellowyouhadtokeeponhistailandthat.Inlatterlifetheycalledhim‘TheJudge’.HewasworkingonthewharvesdownatPortlandandtheycalledhimTheJudge–.
09:30 becausehewasalwayssittingonacase.Sotheybrandedhimright.Butyouhadtodostandonacoupleofthem.Wehadoneblokewhenwewerejustintentswouldn’tchangehissocks.Ohstink!
10:00 Youhadtotellthemandthat.Becausetheygotsnotty[upset]forawhile.Isaid,“Pleaseyourselfbecauseifyoudon’tchangethemthey’regoingtochangeyou,thefellasinthetent.”Theyfinishedoneofthem.Hewouldn’twash.Wouldn’tgoforashower.Sotheygothimdownandscrubbedhimwithayardbroom.Didn’tlastlong.Idon’tknowwhathappenedtohim.Whetherhegottransferredoutornot.
10:30 Buthewouldn’twash.Whenyou’resleepinglikecloserthanyouandIarenowinatent,sixinatent,it’snottooniceifyougotsomebodythatsmelledabit.
Whenyoufirstjoinedup–nowasakidyouwerealwaysgettingintrouble,gettingthecaneatschool,howdidyoufinditinthearmy?
Wellitnever
11:00 everbotheredme.WhatevertheytoldmetodoIdid.Because–andIthinkthat’showImighthavegotonallrightasasergeantandthat–Ihadtocarryouttheplatooncommander’sorders.Wellit’sjustthesameasnow–it’slikealaw,butImeanItellyou,“You’reonguarddutytonight
11:30 andnonoddingoff.Ifyoudoyou’reintrouble.SoI’llbeguardingyou.”Wellit’sallright.Wealwaysput
onagoodguard.Becauseyouhadsomeofthemsneakyofficerswouldsneakaroundtoseetheyweren’tasleepontheirduty–whichisagoodthing.Becausethey’renogoodtoyouifyou’vegotblokesthat
12:00 areasleepandyouthinkthatthey’recoveringyourback.It’sthesameasthemblokesthatdisappearedoffthetrainswhenIwasgoingback.Theywerenogood.Theywerejustaslikelytoshootthroughwhenyouweremostexpectingthemtobethereandthey’renot.Weneverhadmuchtroublelikethatwithblokesthat–Idon’t
12:30 thinkwehadanytrouble.Onlydoingnothinking.Puthiminaholeandtellifanyonecomesuptheredon’tjustrollagrenadedownonthem.Thatdidn’tmeantosaythattheycomeupeightortenfeetawaynottodoanything.See,they’reblokesthat’sgottobeled.
13:00 IhadfellasthoughtthatIputtheminposition,theyknewwhattheyhadtodo.Whattolookforandthat.ThisfellafromAmphitheatrewasagunner.Hegotshotthroughhere,touchedthatbonethereandcomeoutthereandthroughhisear.Andhehadearslikethatandwealways
13:30 calledhim‘Loppy’.Hegotwounded,buthestayedonthegun–himandhismatewhowasachampionbloke.You’dwanthimtobackyouupanytimeaslongastherewasnogrog.Butiftherewasgrogabouthewasbloodyuseless.Hegotshotthroughtheupperarm.
14:00 Justunderthewinghere.HimandDrydenwereonthemachinegunandthey’dstopattheirpost–thisisatKokoda–andtheywerebothwoundedandtheybothgotdecorated.TheybothgotMMs[MilitaryMedals].Butseethey’reblokesthatyoucanrelyon.AblokefromClunescametome
14:30 andhesaid,“Listen,there’soneofyou39thblokesinhospitalinBallarat”andhewasaskingmedidIknowanyoneinClunes.AndIsaid,“OhyesIknowafew.”Hesaid,“DoyouknowablokenamedLarryDownes?”Hesaid,“Yes.”Hesaid,“Mebrotherwasinthearmywithhim.”HisnamewasRush.Hesaid,“He’snottoogood.
15:00 Ifyoucangetachancewouldyougoinandsayg’daytohim?”SoOlgaandIwentinandassoonasIwalkedinIseenthisblokeinbedandIknewwhohewas.Hewasabout6foot.HegotwoundedupatKokoda.There’sblokesgettingbowledoverrightandleft.Andhesaidtome“Iheardthisblokebehindmesaying,Sarge!Sarge!”
15:30 Ilookedaroundlikethat–I’mbehindalittlerubbertreeaboutthatbig–Ilookbehindandthere’sthisbloketherelookedabouttenfoottallwhenyouturnedaroundlikethatandhe’sholdinghishandsonhisgutslikethis.Isaid,“What’swrong?”Hesaid,“I’vebeenhit.”Andhepulledhishandoutandhisfinger’shangingdown.Hegotshotthroughthehand.AndIsaid,“Wellifyoudon’tbloodywellgetdownyou’llhaveoneinyourbloodyskull.”
16:00 SoIneverseenhimafterthat.ItoldhimtogetdownorgetbacktotheRAP–the[Regimental]AidPost.Sohemusthavegotbackthereandhegotrelieved.Theysenthimout.AndthatwasthenexttimeIseenhim,hewasinhospital.
16:30 He’sdeadnow.HisnamewasSchroeder.Heknew.WhenIsaidtohim,“YesIknowyou.”Isaid,“WhatdidItellyouwhenyouwerestandingupthere?”Hesaid,“IfIdon’tgetdownyou’llgetabulletinthebloodyhead.”
Howdidyouparentsfeelaboutitwhenyoujoinedup?
Theyneverhadasayinit.
Werethey
17:00 pleasedorworried?
Wellmymotherknewwhatwasgoingonandmefatherhe–whenIgoonleavehe’dcomewithmetothestationofamorning.We’dwalkjustupoverthebackacrosstothestation.He’dseemeoffandmemother’dbegettingtheyoungones.Thatwasahardpart–whenIcomebackI
17:30 didn’tknowmysisters.That’showmuchthey’dgrowninthreeyears.Justlikewaterandlettucehowquicktheygrew.They’reallstillalive.Threesistersandfivebrothers.
Bigfamily.Obviouslysurvivors.
I’mtheeldest.Oneofthelittlephotosthereyou’llseemeand
18:00 mebrother.HewasintheairforceandIwasinthearmy.ButheonlywentasfarasDarwin.Ithink.Wehadmoreargumentswiththeairforcethananybodyelse–thanIthinktheenemy.
Howcome?
Theyalwaysreckonedtheywerebetterthanus.WeusedtocallthemVioletCrumbles[acandybar].Chocolate
18:30 ontheoutsideandyellowinside.Theycouldcomehomeatnight.Wecouldn’t.
Wheredidyoumeetupwiththeairforceguys?
Youmeetthemmostcampsandontrains–recruitmovements.
19:00 They’dalwayswanttohaveacarriagetothemselves.Wemightbetwelveinabloodycarriageandthere’sonlyfourofthem.Ithinkwemighthavewonthebattle.
Werethereeveranyfights?
No.Notfisties[fisticuffs].Ihadmorefightsonthetramswithdrunks.
19:30 Why’sthat?
WellespeciallywhenIcomehomethepubswereonrestrictions.Theremightbeanhour’sbeeronattheSierraSands.Heknowsallthepubs.Wellit’dcloseandthenthey’dgouptotheAlbion.Andthey’dalwaysjumponthetramsandthey’dbegettingdrunker.Therewasalwaysacouplewantedtofight
20:00 andabuseyou.Ihadafewofthem.Ihadoneblokecomingup,toldmeIshouldbeupfightinginsteadofworkingontrams.AndI’dalreadyhadthreeyearsupthere.See,thetramwaysclaimedmeoutonceIgotmyBclass.Itoldhim“Andifyoudon’tshutyourdirty
20:30 mouthI’llputyouoff.”Swear!Hewasabusingeverybodyabouthim.WellhetoldmeIshouldbeupthere.Isaid,“Righto.”IhadasignalwiththedriverandIgiveatingleonthebell.Andheknewwhatwasgoingonsoonashe’dletthetram’s
21:00 almoststophe’dletthebrakegoaminuteandshe’dgiveabitofajerk.AssoonashelosthisfootingIgrabbedhimandoutthedoor.AndhegotintheotherdooranditwasjustbeforethestopbeforeyougettotheCarltonfootballgroundandhewasgettingintheotherdoor.SoIshutmebagandswungitaroundmebackandIjumpedoutthetramandIgrabbedhimandIgrabbedhimthere.Ipunchedhim.
21:30 Hewasbiggerthanme.Thedrivergotoutandweliftedhimupandputhimonthemedianstrip.Hewastherefortwotrips.IthoughtImighthavekilledhim.Butifyou’vegotthecrowdwithyou,you’reright.Theysay,“Andpunchhisearsoff,connie,[conductor]punchhisearsoff.”
22:00 Atthedepot,tillthentherewastwoorthreesmart-alecks,youknow.Theyeitherdidn’twanttogoawayortheyweretooold.AndI’msittinghavingmelunch–I’donlybeenatthedepotforthreeweeks.I’mhavingmelunchandIgothitfairintheearholewithanapplecore.SoIneverdidnothing.Ijustcarriedon
22:30 withwhatIwaseating.SoIfindoutafteroldDickShieldssaid,“Youwanttobloodywatchyourself.Iseenhimgoingdownthestreetanddowntheline.Justwatchyourself.”Ihadafairideawhoitwas.Soit’dbethreeweeksafter,
23:00 we’recomingdownthestairs.Ourlunchroomwasupthetop.AndIbowledhimarseoverheaddownthestairs.AndIneverhadanytroubleatthedepotafter.TalkedtoeverybodybutIneverhadnotrouble.Therewasalwayssomeoneskylarkingwithsomeone’slunch,butIneverhadthattrouble.
23:30 IjustwanttotakeyounowtothepointatwhichyoudisembarkedwhenyougottotheAquitania.Iheardthatsomeofthe53rdwereontherewithyouandtheyweren’tsokeentogo.
They’donlyjoinedup.Someofthemhadn’tputtheiruniformson.They’dhadnotrainingwhatsoever.
24:00 It’sabloodyinsulttothem.Theirofficersweren’tnogood.Theycouldhavegotusallkilled.Theyputthemoutonaplankandwhentheyfirststrucktheenemytheyallshotthrough[ran].LettheJapsthroughthere.
24:30 Idon’tblamethemsomuch.Ifthebloodyofficersgo,theywentwiththem.Buttheycouldhavetoldsomebody.Theyhadrunners.Theycouldhavegotarunnertocomethrough.Theyhadsigs[signallers]withthem.That’stheonlywayIblamethembecausewegotalotofthemasreinforcementslater.
25:00 Andtheymadegoodsoldiers.Buttheyneverhadtimetosaygoodbyeoranything.Soitwasasluronthearmytosendthemway.Allourfellashadhadleave.TheAquitania.Shewasabigboat.
25:30 56thousandtonsandthebiggestthingyou’dseenwasarowingboatorthatthingthatusedtobeonthelake.
Whatwasthetriplike?
Goingup?Verygood.Iusedtoplaytwo-upabitinthecamp.
26:00 Butontheboattherewasthegamblingroom,buttherewasnoofficialthingson.Andheadsandtailstheywereplayingwiththedice.I’dneverplayedheadsandtails.FarasIwasconcerneditwasthesameasheadsandtailsthrowingthepenniesup,onlyyourollthedice.Ispunelevenheads.Ibrokethe
26:30 poolbecausetheyneverhadthatmuchmoney.Iwon84quid.Whichwasafortune.WhenIgetuptoMoresbytherewasnothingtospenditon.SoIputitintwoenvelopesandsentithometomemother.Itgothome.YoucanwritealetternowandsendittoTalbotupheretenmileupbuttheydon’tgetit.
27:00 Headsandtails,wasthatthesameascrownandanchor?
No.Ithada“H”onthediceandatails.Andyourolledthem.Youhadtogetapairofheadsorpairoftails.It’sthesameaswithtossingthepenny.Iwonafew.Iwasprettylucky.I’dthrowthreeorfourheadsandthen
27:30 throwthekipaway.Ihaditthen.
Didyoudrinkbeforethewaratall?
I’dhadonedrinkbeforethewar.Andthatwasatmemate’splacewhenIwasaboutfifteen.Ohwewasn’tfifteen.Wejustleftschool.Upathisplaceandhesaid–wehadabloodycigareachandweweresmokingitandhesaid,“Wouldyoulikeadrink?”Hesaid,
28:00 “Adrinkofwine?”“I’lltryit.”Sohesaid,“IknowwhereMum’sgotabottle.”Anditwasmedicinewine.Wehadaboutthatmucheach.Geez!.Andsmokingacigar.Walkedoutsideanditwasdark.“Christ”Isays“I’mgoinghome.”Idon’tknowhowIgothome.GeezIwascrook[sick].WellIneversmoked.AndIneverhadadrink.
28:30 I’matMoresbyandwhentheybombedMoresbyallthestores–BurnsPhilpwaslikeColes,theyhadeverything.Theyallleft.Sotheblokesallwentforthegrog.Theyhadcrèmedementheand–everythingthatwasthere.Theyknockeditalloff.
29:00 Wineandwhisky.Iwentforthepharmacist.Igotheadachepillsandcastoroil.Becausewehadnothing.Weneverhadanybandagesoranything.SoIgotallthese.Iseeallthisboltsofmaterial.Therewascolouredpatterns,
29:30 likethewomenusedtowearuptherelikesarongs.SoIgotaboltofthatandaboltofkhaki.IseweditupinahessianbagandIwentdownandIputitontheboatandsentithometomemother.Andshemadeshortsfortheboys–allthekidsaroundus,littlekhakishorts.Andourkids.Andforthegirlsshemadeaskirtwithalittle
30:00 likethis,whitetop.Likeasingletonthetopofitforthegirls–likeflannelettewiththat.I’msorryInevergotmoreofit.You’dbesurprisedthestuffthatIgot.Justcastoroilalone.Nowthere’ssomething.Nowyou’dgotothechemistandhe’dgiveyousomethingtosquirt
30:30 inyoureye.Yougetsomethinginyoureye,abitofchafforsomething,adropofcastoroilandyou’llgetitoutwithoutanytroubleandyouwon’thaveasoreeye.Littlethingsthatyouthinktheywereworthquidstometohavethem.
TellusaboutwhenyoufirstarrivedatNewGuinea–
31:00 youarrivedatPortMoresby?
Yeah.Andwecouldn’tgetintothewharf.Becauseitwastoobig.Notenoughwater.Sotheyhadtostandoffandwehadtogoinontenders.Climbdownropeladders.Yoursealegsweren’ttoobloodygood.That’showtheylandedus.Sowewerealllandedoutthereandwehadasevenmilewalkto
31:30 whereweweregoing.Wellthatwasashocktothesystemtoo.Alltheseyoungblokes;we’realllinedupandawaywego.Wehadourpackandalllinedoutalongthetrackwasallthesenatives.Thewomenhadnotopson.Andtheyhadboobs[breasts]hangingdownhereandeverybodywaslookingatthem.Onesaid,
32:00 “Christ!Lookatthebloodynipplesonthem.”Thenippleswereaboutthatlong.Wedidn’tknowforawhilewhytheyweresolong.Welltheyusedtocarrythekidsinalittlebasketupontheirback.Andwhentheywantedtogivethekidadrinktheyusedtothrowitupandthekid’spullingonthem.Justmadethemverylong.WellyouseenthatphotoIgiveyou.
32:30 Bloodypigssuckingonofthem.Didyouseethatone?
Idid.Ithoughtitwasadog.
No.It’sapig.Theyusedtofeedthelittlepigsonthem.Butwheretheywentto,Godknows.Theyjustdisappearedoffthefaceoftheearth.TheyknewIsupposewheretheyweregoing.Intothedeepgulliesandthingslikethat.
33:00 Therewassomesteeppartsupthere.
Soyouwalkedforsevenmilesoverthehill?
YeahwehadtowalkouttotheSevenMileDrome.Theysaidweweregoingtohaveairforcedefence–weweretolookaftertheairforce.Wefound
33:30 outverysoonthatwewereonthesideofahill.Wespentthenightjustlayingdownwhereverwewere.Wehadourblanket–newblankets.Thenextbloodydaythebrandnewblankets,theblowfliesblewthem.Theyhadmaggotsonthem.New
34:00 blanket.Itwassortofgreasy.Theywantedawash.Well,thatturnedalotoftheblokes.Toseethesebloodymaggotscrawlingaround.Isaid,“Givethemagoodshake,you’llberight.”Sothenwegottents.Wecouldn’tgettentsforthatbecausetheywerealldownthebottomoftheboat.Allthestuffwewanted.Ammunition
34:30 andwhatevermedicalsuppliestherewas.Wecameupwithgallonjarsofquinine.Youhadtodishoutthisquinine.They’dbringtheirspoonandyou’dgivethemaspoonfulofquinineandyouhadtowatchthemtakeit.
Didyouhavethatwhenyoufirstarrived?
No.
35:00 It’dbeaweekorsevendaysbeforetheygotitofffromthebottomoftheboat.Idishitouttomycrowd.“Thatthelast?”“Yeah.”SoIputthetoponthebottleandgoandputitbackinthestore.IneverevertookitandInevergotmalaria.SoIdon’tknowwhetherthemalariacamewiththequinine.Andthenlater…
Whydidn’tyoutakeit?
35:30 OhChristittastedawful.Yourteeth’dgoblack.Shewasvile.Youevertastedquinine?She’swicked.Speciallywhat–Godknowswherethatcamefrom.ThenwegotAtebrinpills.Iusedtotakethemabit.Butyouhadtotakethembecauseotherwisetheyknewstraightawaywhowasn’tonAtebrinbecausewhereyourchinstrapcamedown
36:00 you’dbeyellowunderthere.Don’tknow,itmusthaveworked.
Beforeyougotthestufflikeatapirinandquininewhatdidyouhave?Ifallthestoreswereatthebottomoftheship,whatwasitlikeatSevenMiledrome?
AtthesevenmiledromeIthinkitwastheroughestcampyoueverseen.Thewatercartusedtocomearound.
36:30 Andyougetawaterbottleandthatwasyourday’sration.Youhadtohaveawashandcleanyourteethandallinit.Itwasquiteeasywhenyoudidn’ttakebloodyquininebecauseyouwereonlywastingthewatergettingthequinineoutofyourmouth.Theyhadtobring
37:00 tuckeraroundinahotbox,oradixie,tilltheygotthecookhouseandeverythinggoing.Thenjustgeteverythinggoingnice–setup–andtheyhadtodigalatrine.Isaid,“Howdeepwegottodigit?”Mysectionwasdetailedtodigit.
37:30 “Ohsixorsevenfeet.”AndIsaid,“What’sSmiteydoingtoday?”“Smitey?Ohthey’reonthelatrines.”LookdowntheholeandIcouldjustseethem.Smitey,he’ddoneabitofknockingabout.Muchthesameasmyself
38:00 whenhewasyoung.Andhegotthesebitsofquartzaboutthatbigandhefoundacouplewithspecksonandhestillkeptgoingdown.Wehadtogethimout.Theywantedtousethelatrine.Thisisjustalittlesidebit.Theygotthelatrinedoneanditwasafourdecker–fourholesonit.
38:30 Thisdayahellofalotgotdysentery.Ireckonitwasbecausetherewasn’tenoughwatertowashyourdixiesandthatout.Sotheygotdysentery.AndSmitey,theystartedtocomeoverbombing.Aplaneonthedromeandthey’dcomedownfromupatBunaorsomewhereorRabaul
39:00 andthey’dbombthedrome.Thisday,whentheystartedtocomeoveryoulookedupandyouseeallthiscomingdownlikeconfetti.Youcouldseeitcomeoutoftheplane.Andthatwasthebombscoming.Theygivethealert.Smitey’sgotdysentery.AndSmiteyrunnedtojumpdownthebloodyhole.
39:30 Thatwasthenearestplace.Andhestuckuptohere.Theywon’tgodownnofurther.Andhe’ssittingthereandhe’sholdingthesheetofpaper–Ithinkitwasabitofnewshe’sgotfromsomewhere–overhishead.Andjustbyabitoflucktheymissedthedrome–itwastheack-ack[anti-aircraftguns]theywereafterwhichwasonthetopofthehillwherewe’resittingonthesideofthehillandtheybombedupthere.
40:00 That’swhenyouwantedavideocamera.God,you’dhavegotsomegoodshots.Yeah,he’sstuckinthetopofthelavatory.Wehadtogethimout,lifthimout.Becausehejammed.Wellafterthattheymovedusdowntotheotherendofthedrome.Thatwasreallyworse
40:30 thanbeingstuckonthesideofthedromebecausewhentheycamedowntheystrafeddownthedrome,notacrossit.Andalltheoverflowusedtocomedownthroughourcamp.JimmyTresizewasaBallaratbloke.Hesaid,“I’mnotgettingoffmybunk.”Theyblewhistenttobuggeryandeverythingaroundit.
41:00 Loppedthetreesoff.AndJimmywasstillonhisbunk.Nothinghappenedtohim.ButIthinkhe’dbeenbombhappy.Heusedtoplaythemouthorganwell.Andhecanplaythesirenonthemouthorganbetterthanthesirenitself.Wehadabombhappylieutenant.Don’tknowwhathappenedtohim.
Tape5
00:42 He’sonthatsideoftheholeintheboat.ItwastheMickDooey.Andwewereunloadingit.He’sonthatsideandthewharfandtogetoffisonthatside.
01:00 Sothissirengoes.Weweretoldassoonasyougetthesirentoget[run].Hetakesofffromthatside.Andwentstraightdownthehole.Itwaswideasthisroom.Idon’tknowwherehethoughtthehellhewasgoing.Hebrokehisleg.Downthere.
01:30 Straightdownthehole.Welltheytoldustogo.Assoonasitgoes.WellIcouldalwaysrun.ButI’mgoingupthewharfthisdayandIwasn’twastinganytimebecausethey’drunoverthetopofyoufrombehind.
02:00 AndtherewastwoPapuanspastme.AsifIwasstopped.ByGodtheycouldrun.There’ssomegoodathletesyouknowupinMoresby.Isupposethey’reusedtorunningaroundthehillsandthat.That’sgoodexercise.That’swhatdevelopsthemusclesandthat.There’sRichmond[FootballClub]hasgotalittlebloke
02:30 comesfromuptheresomewhere.He’sagoodfootballer.There’salotofAboriginalsnowcomingdownfromthenorthtoo–iftheycanonlygetthemoutofwalkabout.They’rejustaslikelytoputinamonthanddisappearforafortnight.
Areyoutalkingaboutinthosedays?
Yeah.
Therewerealot
03:00 comingdownfromthenorth.
Yeah.Sonowtheygointoahousenowandtheygotsomeonetolookafterthem.Say,you’vebeenplayingforacoupleofyearsandyou’retheirmentor.
03:30 LikeMikeO’Loughlintheotherday,SydneySwanbloke–hewasinthebarhavingadrinkandhegotterriblecrookandtheyreckonhisdrinkhadbeenspiked.Theythoughthewasgoingtodie.
Youwerespeakingabout
04:00 the53rd.Whatwaswrongwiththatunit?Telluswhy?
Theyneverhadanytraining.
Butneitherdidthe39th.
We’dbeentogether.Wewereagroup.Butthesefellashadn’t.They’dallcomeintocamp.Theyhadn’tputtheiruniform
04:30 on.Theywereshanghaied.
Whatdoesshanghaiedmean?
JustthesameasifIgrabbedyouandtookyouwithmetosomeplaceyoudidn’twanttogo.Viceversanowbecauseyou’reyoungerandstrongerthanme.
05:00 WherewouldItakeyou?
Shanghaied.Idon’tknowwherethewordstartedfrom.I’veknownitallmylife.
Didthesepeoplewanttobethere?
They’dneverbeenasked.Theywerejustgoingintothemilitialikeitwastheircallup.
Buttheywerevolunteerslikethe39th
05:30 weren’tthey?
No.Theywerecalled.Calledupandsent.
Sotheyweren’tgivenachoice.
No.
That’sthedifferencebetweenthe39thandthe53rd?The39thBattalionweremorechosenvolunteers?
Yes.Weallvolunteeredtogotoformthe39thBattalion.
Howlonghadthe53rdbeenthereforbeforeyouarrived?
Notheyjustbunged[threw]
06:00 themstraightontheboat.Whenwefirstjoinedupwiththe8thBattalionwewentintothehallinBallarat.There’sabarracksatBallarat,abeautifulhallthere.Andwewerecalledupandthat’swherewewentin
06:30 andwe’dsignedupandwegotouruniformsandthingslikethat.Idon’tknowwhetherwewentbusortrainnowuptoSeymourfirstupNagambieRoadintotents.ThenwemoveddowntoBelcoenearMountMartha.
07:00 I’dneverbeentoMelbourneuntilIwentinarmy.Andtositinatrainandlookatallthemhousesasyou’regoingdownthetraindowntoBelcoeandthat.Thatwasaneyeopenerlookingineverybody’syardasyougodown.
SowhatdidyouthinkofPortMoresby?Wasitabigtown?
Itwasn’tthatbig.Anyhouseswerespreadout
07:30 like,buttherewasafewshopsthere,butmainlyBurnsPhilp.Itwasabigstore.OnlytimeIseenitwaswhenitwasbombedorwhentheyleft.ButthenafterthatIthinkitgotabombinit.WewereoutIsupposethreemilesatthistimeoutofMoresby.
08:00 Andwewereindugouts.Theywereduginandtherewasthatmuchgapbetweentheroofandthetopoftheground.Otherwiseyou’dhavesmotheredinthere.Ifwewasn’tunloadingaboatwewerediggingoutahillatthisdrome.Therewasasmallaerodromeandtheywerewantingtomakeitlonger.
08:30 Andwewerediggingitoutwithpickandshovelandawheelbarrow.Whenwewentintothemountainsandcomeback,whenwecomeoutofthemountainsthatwashalfamileouttosea,thedrome.TheYankeeNegroesengineers'battalioncameinwithsteamshovelsandbulldozers.Andweweredoingitwithpickandshovels.Justmoveditoutintothesea.
09:00 Madeitsayfromaquarterofamilelongtothreequartersofamilelong.Theyweregettingbiggerplanes.Mainlyfighterplanes.
Nowthe39thhadVickersmachineguns.DidtheyshootdownanyJapaneseplanes?
No.Weputaholeortwointhem.
09:30 WehadonlyoldLewisgunsandthefirstonethatflewovermyheadhadabig“J”onthesideofit.Wellthatonlymeantonethingtome–Japan.Andweopeneduponit.Anditwasoneofourown.Theairforcehadwarnedusthattherewasenemyaircraftapproachingfromthesea.Anditwastheseplaneswhowe’dbeenwaitingforforfourmonths.
10:00 TheywereKittyhawkscomingin.Therewasonlyonelandedthatdidn’thaveholesinit.Sotheywereluckywenevershotthemalldown.
Soyoushotdownthree?
Yeah.Putthreeonthegroundthattheycouldn’ttakeoffagain.Kittyhawks.Finishedupwewerecallingthem‘TomorrowHawks’.Theywerealwayscoming,they’dbeheretomorrow.
10:30 Wedidalotofworkinthedrome.Youmakebigdispersalbays.Theplanewouldrunuptheroadandthey’dgointothesedispersalbays.Itwastwofortyfourgallondrumsfilledwithdirtandthenyouputanotherfortyfourgalloninthemiddleofitaboveitandit’sfilledwithdirt.Tostopthemwhentheycomethroughstrafingthatthey
11:00 didn’tputholesintheplanes.Butnowhentheytookofftheytookoffdowntheroadsomeofthem.Theyneverwaitedtogettothedrome.Theytookoffontheroad.Becausethat’swhattheywereafter.Whenwewereinthemountains–areyougoingtodoKokoda?
Ofcourse.
WhenwewenttoKokodaweweretoldifwecouldholdtheplaceforadaythey’dlandallthe
11:30 troopsandsuppliesthatwewanted.Theyallgotblownupthenightbeforetheyweretoleave.Abigraidandtheplanesweren’tdispersedandtheywereallloadedreadytotakeoff–allthecargoplanes,Imean.
Theycrashlanded.
TheygotthemallatMoresby.Weheardtheexplosionsinthemountains.
12:00 Wesaid,somebody’scoppingit.
TellushowitstartedtheKokodaTrack–whereyoufirststartedtomoveupthemountains?
Moresbydowntheretillyougetuptothetreelinewasdry,barrencountry.
12:30 Dirt.Cloudsofdusttohorizon.Soyougetuptothetreelineandshestarts–marvellous–startsrainingthen.You’reinthejunglebelt.ButMoresby–whenwewasputtingwiredownatBoatman’sBayandthatthisoldfellasaidtousthathadbeenupthere–hewasaplantationfella.Isupposehewasretiredorsomething.
13:00 Hewasprettyold.Hesaid,“Listenfellasyouwanttokeepmovingbecauseoncethatrainstartsyou’llnevergetthatwirefinished.”Sowetookitonhimbecauseheknew.Sowegointo,wegetuptothemountains,wegetstuckintoitandwegotfinished.Wefinishedthatnight,hadthewireon.
13:30 Hesaid,“Youwon’tfindthewireinafortnightonceitstartsraining.”Downshecome.Wegotseveninchesinaboutthreehours.Inafortnightyoucouldn’tseewherewe’dbeenworking.Thegrasshadcoveredit.Ithinkifyou’dputyoureardownyou’dhaveheardthegrassgrowing.Thatwasthestartofthewetseason.But
14:00 itwasalreadywetinthejungle.Wetookoffuptothejungle.Whenwewentupthere–theyhadmulesatMoresby.SomeoftheLightHorsefellaswereinchargeofthesemules.Theyweregoingtocarryalloursupplies.Sowhenwetookofftothefirststagethey
14:30 boggedtotheirgutsinmud.Theywerenogood.Theycouldn’tcarryaloadandkeeptryingtogetoutofthebogthemselves.Sowhatitwas,itwentonourbacks.Wehadtocarryourgear.Isupposewewerecarryinganywherefromfiftykilostoseventykilosinourpacks.
15:00 Firststagewashardbecauseitwassomethingstrangeandthehillsweren’tsosteep.Butthentheystartedtogetup.It’drainfromaboutfouro’clockintheeveningtodaylightthenextmorning.Andthenit’dcomeoutstinkinghot.Steaming.
15:30 Thatwentonfromdayindayout.IthinkittookusaboutninedaystogouptogettoDeneki.Ittooknineteendaystobringthewoundedout.Becausethetrackwasgettingworseandworseallthetime.Whenwewerecomingbackoutthey’dhadaganginthere.Idon’tknowwhetheritwas
16:00 theFuzzyWuzzysorwhetheritwasanengineerunitorsomethingputtingstepsin.Butinsteadofputtingthestepsinsaythatfarthestepswerethatdeep.Christ,withaloadonandhavingtostretchtogetupthesesteps–butitwasworsegoingdown.
16:30 Whenwewentup,ifyouwentthreestepsforwardyouslippedbacktwo.Butthisgoing–oncetheyputthestepsinIthinkitwasharderthanslippingandsliding.No,itwasaneyeopener.Thistrack–
17:00 seetheYankscalledittheKokodaTrail–butitwasn’tatrail,itwasatrack.Itwasthatwide.Itwasonlyapadwherethenativesusedtocomedowntotheseaonceayeartogetsalt.Andthat’showitwascalledatrack.Notatrail.
17:30 Atrail–youcouldgoonitwithhorsesoranything,couldn’tyou?Atrail.Butatrackisatrack.Youwalkonit.Butyoucouldlookdownoverthesideinplacesandyou’relookingdownIsupposeit’dbe1000or1500feet.Andweweregettingterribleshortwinded.Wethoughtwewereoutofconditionperhaps.Butwedidnotrealise
18:00 thatwewereupseventhousandfeet.Andthatwastheairwasgettingrare.Andcarryingaload,thatmadeitharderbecauseyousweatedallthetime.Andnightimeyou’dbehuddledonasortofgroundsheet.Rubberised,itwas.Andshiver.
18:30 Thenalldayyou’dbethishumidweather.Someofthefootballershavebeenoverit.TheSwanssaid–acoupleofteamsacoupleofyears.Idon’tknowwhethertheysentanythisyear.Butthefirstteamthatwentup–amongthefirstsevenwereoneoftheplayerswhose
19:00 grandfatherwasonthetrackandIwashissergeant.Justshowsyouhowthingscomeabout.Yes.SnowyMorris.Hewasagoodfootballertoo.AndhisgrandsonplayswiththeSwans.BrettKirk.
SoSnowyMorriswasinthe39thBattalion?
Yeah.Hewasoneofmyblokes.Imethimtwelvemonths
19:30 agowhenIwentuptothe…
TelluswhatyouwereexpectingoftheJapanese.
It’shardtosaywhenyouseenthetrack.Theyweretellingusyoucouldgettwoonabayonet.Allthisbulldust.Theydidn’tknow.Butifthey’daonlylistenedtoBrigadier
20:00 Bennett–hegotout,buttheyclassedhimacowardbecausehegotoutofSingapore.Welloneofthe
thingsyou’retaughtwhenyou’reinthearmyandyou’retakenprisoneristoescapeatthefirstchancethatyoucanget.Wellhedidit.Hecamebackwithafairfewtroops.Buttheyneverhadthetransportorthattogetthemout.
20:30 That’swhentheysurrenderedatSingapore.Allthegunswerepointingouttotheseaandtheycomeinthebackdoor.Andifthey’dhavepassedthatinformationontobackhere–becausethey’dbeeninthejungleforquitesometimebefore
21:00 theyhadtosurrender.
SowhatweretheotherthingsyouweretoldabouttheJapanese?
Thattheywereonlysmall.Theyallworeglassesandtheycouldn’tshoot.Thatwasabsolutebullshit.That’sjustplainlanguage.Becausetheycouldshoot.And
21:30 alotofourcasualtieswasfromsnipers.Theyweregoodshotsandtheyhadasmallercalibrethanours.WhichI’vebeensayingwouldhavebeenbetterforustohave.There’sa22
22:00 Magnumwouldhavebeenidealforjunglewarfare.Becauseeven–theyputonbayonetchargesandallthat.Buttheundergrowthwasnogood.Andifyou’recarryingasixfootstickyou’regonnagettangleduparen’tyou?
What
22:30 wasyourfirstbattlewiththeJapanese?
AtKokoda.
SotellushowyougottoKokodaandwhathappened?
ItmighthavebeentendaysbeforewewentintoKokoda.Theyhadflownup–onelotwenttoBunabutthosebloodyJapshadlandedbeforetheygotthere.Sothentheyflewhalfa
23:00 companytoKokoda.Andtheweatherclosedin.Sotheotherhalfwalkedup.Wellthentheysentus.WhenwegetupittookusninedaystogettoDeniki.WewereheldupatDeniki.TheothersgetpushedbacktoDeniki.TheygotkickedoutofKokodaBCompany.
Whichcompanywereyouin?
“A”
23:30 BCompanygotkickedout.TheJapstookoverthere.TheColonelgotkilledthere.WewerewaitingatDeniki.Weweregoingtogoin.WhenColonelOwengotkilledatKokodawithBCompany
24:00 thisCameronwasmadetheCO.Shouldneverhappened.Wewerethenposted–ACompanywasgoingintoKokoda.CCompanywasgoingtoattackfromthisend.See,Kokoda
24:30 wasarubberplantation.Itwaslikeonaplateaulikemyhand.Theadministrationbuildingswerehere.Upthissideherewastheaerodrome.Wellbackheretherewaswheretherivercrossed.OnewentthissideandEobaCreekwentdownthatside.
25:00 Theyhadabridgeacrosstothedrome.CCompanywastocomeuphere.WewentintoKokoda.Wewaitedupthisriver.WewentupintoKokodaandtherewasoneJapinthereandhetookoff.Sowehelditallnight.
25:30 Nothinghappened.Aboutteno’clockthenextmorningsomeoneyelledout,“HerecomesCCompany”fromdownhere.They’rerunningfromtreetotree,treetotree,butitwasn’tCCompany.Wewere–9platoons.Theothertwoplatoons7and8Platoonwerespreadoutaroundhere.
26:00 Andtheyweredugin.Weweren’t.Wewereinreservehere.Andwethoughttoothatit’stheCCompanycoming.Thisiswhatwe’retold.Ifitwasn’tCCompany,CCompanygotknockedoutatthecrossingandtheJapswerecoming.SotheJapswerecominguphere.Andtheypinnedusalldaythere.Iwasbehindarubbertree.
26:30 Iwaskneelingbehindarubbertreeaboutthatround.BlueyWilliamscomerunninguponmyright.FrankMcLeodwasonmyleft.Therewasashot.AndIlookedandBlueyWilliamsrolledoverlikethatlyingontheground.ThenextshotIsaid,
27:00 “They’rebehindus.”AndIwaslookingbackthatway.AndIreckonfromdaytothisthatwentpassedmyearhole.Hemissedme.TherewasonemoreshotandFrankMcLeodrollsoverandhewasdownlikethat.Andtheonlymarkonthem,alittletrickleofbloodrunningdownthesideoftheirface.Bothofthem.
27:30 Rightandleft.AndIwaspinnedthere.EverytimeItriedtomove,therewasashot.AndIwassittingintherubbertreeabouttwofeetabovewhereIwaslyingbehindtherubbertree.Laidthere–befourhoursIsupposebeforetheyputachargeonandthenIcouldmovebacktowheretherewas
28:00 twoorthreeothersinadugoutweaponpit.Ihadtroopsouthereontherightandtherestofthemwerespreadoutthatway.Butitwasjustthattheycamedownthroughtherubbertreeslikethat.Andtheonethatwasdoingthedamagewasablokeupatree.AJapupatree.Andhewastheone
28:30 thatwasdoingtheshooting.Becausewheretheywerehittingabovemyhead,theywerehittinglikethat.Thebulletswerecomingdownonanangle.AndIwaslayingthereandsomethingfloppedonthebackofmyhead.AndIputmyhanduplikethis–Christ!Itwasallsticky.SoIpulledmyhanddown
29:00 slow.AndIlookedatmyhandanditwaswhite.Itwasn’tblood.IlookedatitandIsaid,“Mybloodybrainsarerunningout.”Itwasrubbercomingoutoftherubbertree,latex.Andtherewasallthisbloodyrubber.Ihaditinmyhair.Itwasareliefquietly.Iputupwiththerubberinmyhair.
29:30 Sothentheyputonanattack.They’dcharge.Andtheywouldgetwithintwentyyardsofyouandawhistle’dblowandthey’dgoback.Theyhadthegreaternumbers.Iftheykeptpushing–whichifit’dbeenus,we’dhavegonestraightthrough.
30:00 Youwouldn’tgetthatcloseandthenpullout.Buttheydidthattwicethatday.Andtwicethenextday.Wewentin–howitsticksinyourmemory–ontheeighthoftheeighth.Weheldtheeighth,weheldtheninthandwecameoutonthe
30:30 nightofthetenth.Itgotdark.Sevenand8platoongotwithdrawntoleaveustheretogetthemout.Andthatwasthehardestpart.OldJimCowiewasaFirstWarman.Andhecomeupandhesaid,“Getwhateverboysyou’vegotstillaliveandgetout.Therestaregone.”
31:00 Wellifsomeonetellsyouthatyou’dthinkthey’dhavebeenwipedoutwouldn’tyou?Theyweren’twipedout.Theytookthewoundedandpulledout.Andifithadn’tbeenforhimIwouldn’tbetalkingtoyounow.ButoldJimsaid,“Youcan’tleavethemthere.They’vegottobetold.”Andwhenwewenttogatherwhatwasleftwas
31:30 SmytheandDrydenwounded.Wesentthemoutfirst.AlecLockhead.Outof27therewasonly9stillalive.Therestweredead.
WhatsortoftacticsdidtheJapaneseuse?
Assoonastheyhityou–nowthisiswhatifthey’dlistentoBennetthe’dhavetoldusthis–they
32:00 stoppedandtheywenttooutflankyou.Wedidn’tknowthat.Buttheyknewjunglewarfaresee.Theyknewtheycouldn’tbeseengoingoutlikethat.Andwecouldn’tstretchoutwideenoughtostopthat.Butwesoonlearnt.It’smarvelloushowquickyoucan
32:30 learnwhenthepressure’son.Seeitwasn’tjunglethereatKokoda.Butoncewehitthedromeitwaswildbananapalm.Eightorninefeethigh.That’swherewegotout.Wewent
33:00 downandwecrossedEobaCreekandgotintothispalm.No-onecouldseeyouthere.They’dhavetobehighandhavetoseethepalmsmovingfromupatreeorsomewhere.SoIsaid–“Well!”Westopped.Oncewegotintotherewemadeacampforthenight.Andthenextday
33:30 Isaid,“There’sonlyonewaytogoandit’supthemountain.It’sbettertobeonthetopsidethanthebottomside.”SowewentuptherebecausewewerecutofffromDeniki.Sowehadtogoupandwecutacrossalongthistopofthemountain.AndthisblokethatItellyouaboutthatIputin,heletthemcomeup,“We’regoingupabovethetopofanativegarden.”
34:00 AndIhappenedtolookbacklikethat,andheisdownoverthebankinthenativegarden.Therewasamaizegrowingandithadacobonthesideofit.AndhereheisabovethenativevillagewheretheJapsarepickingthiscoboff.Wewentintoalittlenativegarden.
34:30 Therewasanativehutthere.Thisisanastybit.Andtherewasinthenativegardentherewastwonativewomenlayingthereinthegardenwiththeirbreastscutoff.Andonthesideofthislittlenativehutwasababy–thatbig–speared
35:00 tothesideofthehutwithabamboospear.ThebloodyJapshadbeentherebeforeus.Thenwewentthrough–couldn’tdonothing.Thewomenweredeadandthebabywasdead.Andtheyweresuchdirtybuggers.
35:30 Theycouldbeasleepthereandthey’dshitthere.Nohygiene.Sothat’swherewewentthrough.Andwewentup,itmusthavebeengettingon,thisisaboutthreeo’clockintheafternoon,westruckupwiththerestoftheonesthathadgoneoutwiththewounded.WhentheyfoundDenikiwascutoff
36:00 theycutupthemountainIsupposeamileaheadofus.Becausetheyhadthatstart.Andwemetthepadre.Hewascoming.Heknewthatwewerecomingsomewherebecausetherewasabignative–asbigasyou–oneofthePapuans.Hewasabigbloke.Hewaslikeafeatherweightboxerwhenhewalked.
36:30 Youcouldn’thearhim.AnymessagestheyusedtosendhimbacktoKokoda–toDeniki–withamessage.Andhe’dbebackagainbymorning.Buthefloatedalonglikeafeather.TherewashimandthisPadreEarl.Andhehada
37:00 sandbag.Itwasaboutthatbiginthebottomandfulloflittletinsoffish.He’dgotholdofsomewhere.ThatwasthebesttastingfishthatI’devertasted.Youhadtoopenitwithyourknifetogetitopen.Therewasblokeswithcuttongues
37:30 lickingoutthebloodytin.Ourrationswasboiledricethatwasboiledlikeglue.Thatwasinthedixie.Isupposethiswayitdidn’tfalloutanditdidn’trunout.Youhadtodigitout.Butitwasjustlikeglue.Soitstucktoyou.Nosugar.
38:00 Andthat’swherewehitthemaintraintoIsarova.Andthat’swhereweputthestandinthen.Ionlyhadninemenleft.Therewasonlyfivethatwasworkable.Andweweresentbackonthetracktowards
38:30 Denikitorelieveacrowdthatwasonastandpatrolthere.Andofallplaceswherethestandingpatrolwas,wasawaterfall.Andallyoucouldhearwasthehissingofthewatergoingoverthewaterfall.Itmighthavebeenagoodplaceifthewaterfallhadn’tbeenthere.Butyoucouldn’thearanything.SoweputupthereandIsaid,“Thisisnogood.”
39:00 Wepulledoutandweonlygotdownthetrackabitwhen–whentheyattackedaplace,theyroaredandyelledandbellowed.“Ah,they’reinto…”wherewewereonthiswaterfall.Sowepulledbackandthat’swhenwegotbackintoIsurava.AndthenmyjobfromIsuravabacktoMoresbywasmainlydoing
39:30 eitherpatrollingorputtingtroopsinpositions.That’swhenthe14thcomethroughtous.Iputinthis–hadtotakethiscompanyintoposition–theACompanyofthe14th.That’swherethebloketoldmetostandupandwalklikeasoldier.AndIpolitelytoldhim
40:00 whathecoulddo.AnditwouldbeanhourIsupposeatthemostandtherewasahellofafightwentonwhereI’dputthemin.Andhecameoutonastretcherwithnotoponhishead.Andhe’sthebuggerthattoldmetostandupandwalklikeasoldier.I’mheretalkingtoyoutodayandhe’sdead.Theydidn’tknow
40:30 whatwasgoingon.Theykneweverything.ItwasonlywhattheytoldthemthattheylearntcomingupfromAustraliatowhentheyrelievedus.Andthey’vegotalotofrespectforus,the14thBattalion,andwegotalotforthem.Becauseiftheyhadn’thavecomethroughIstillwouldn’tbetalkingtoyou.
41:00 Buttheypaiddearly.Verydear,thelivesthatwaslostatIsurava.Thatwasoneofthehardthings.Youhadtoleaveyourdead.Couldn’tburythem,causeyouneverhadtime.
Tape6
00:37 CanyoutellmewhenyouwerefightingintheKokoda,Imeanthiswasreallyabaptismbyfireforyouguys–withverylittletraining,howdidyoufindyourfirstcombatexperience?
Itwasjustlikethat.
01:00 Itwasjustlikewhenyouwentrabbiting.Itwasthesametypethingonlytherabbitcouldn’tshootatyou.
That’safairlyimportantdifference.
Mm.Yeah.Itwas–youheardthesaying,dogeatsdog.Orthe
01:30 quickeronthedrawistheonethat’llsurvive.BecausenowyougetonwhatItoldyouthewidthofthetrackandthat.IfyouwentaroundthecornerandtherewasaJapcomingatyou,wellthequickestone
02:00 wins.
Didyoucomefacetoface?
IcomefacetofacewiththefirstfellowIcomefacetofacewith.Hewasabigman.Andtherewasalotlikehimbecausehewasoneoftheirtoptroops.Ineverstruckanyrealsmallfellows.Theywereasbigasusorbigger.Butthey
02:30 weretheirjunglefighters.Thefightersthathadtakenallthepositions.Wewereoutmanoeuvredatfirst,butIthinkinstincttakesover.Youlearn.Ifyoudon’tlearnyou’redead.Itwas
03:00 asIsaidawhileagothequickestonthedrawwinsifyou’refacetoface.IcanrememberthisbigblokewithatommygunandIpulledthetriggerandIhithiminthegroinanditrunoutandcomeouthistop
03:30 shoulder.Justfrozeonthetrigger.
Howdidthatwork?Idon’tquiteunderstand.
Itwasaterriblefeelingbutyousoongotoverit.Butyouknowmyworstpartwasthosefirsttwothat
gotshotatKokodaoneeachside
04:00 ofme?Iseethemeverynight.Ilooklikethat.Andhe’slookingatme.AndIturnmeheadbackthatwayandhe’slookingatme.Thatwasjusthowtheyfell.Andalltheyhadwasthatlittletrickleofblooddownthesideoftheirface.Therewasnothingyoucoulddo
04:30 forthemandtherewasnothingtheycoulddoforme.Ihadtorelyon–thisiswhereyouhadbackup–thatmygunnerscouldkeepthematbayuntilwecouldmove.See?Waiting,asIsaidtothemblokesyesterday,“Howmuchofyourlifehaveyouspentwaiting?”WellIdidn’t
05:00 tellthemthis,thatIwaitedforjustonfourhours.I’dmovemehatup–bang!I’dmoveitoutthere–bang!Butitwasbecauseofthisbugger,thesniper.Hewasonlywaitingformetomovetoshowabitandhe’dhavegotme.Itwasthen
05:30 Isungoutthatwherehewasandthatandtheygothiminthefinish.Andhewashangingina–haveyouseentheblokesupthepoles?Electricianswiththebeltaroundthem?That’swhathehadon.Andhewaswelldead.Theyriddledhim.Butwherethegunnerswere,theycutthesideoutofatree
06:00 tryingtogetathim.Withbullets.Theycouldseehim,buttheycouldn’tmove.Buttheykeptshootingathim.Andtheycutenoughthattheygotafullboreonhimandtheygivehimaburst.ButtheBrengunitwasveryaccurate.ItwasIthink–ofcourseyouhaditon
06:30 atripodandtherewasnomovementlikeifyouwereholdingarifle.Buttheywereterribleaccurate.Showsyouwhentheycancutatreedown.Thetreedidfallinthefinish.Butitwasn’tallforwhattheydidtoit.Itwasotherbulletsandthattomovethistree.Youknowwhentheyattackedyoutheyhowledandblewwhistlesand
07:00 Christknowsyouknewwhenanattackwascoming.Firstitwasaneeriefeeling.AsItoldyou,Ididn’tthinkI’dgetkilled.Butaftersevenoreightpatrolsoutyouusedtogetafunnyfeeling.Youreckonedthehair
07:30 wasstandinguponthebackofyourneck.Aqueerfeeling.ButasIsaidIdidn’tthinkI’dgetkilled,butIthoughtImightgethitinthelegsorsomething.Ifyouhadtowithdrawyouwouldn’tgetout.Thoughfearwillmakeyou–likethatfellawehadinthestretcher.Hejusttookoff.Andhisfootwas
08:00 mincemeat.
Tellusalittlebitmoreaboutthat.Hewasshotinthefoot?
Yeah.Eithershotoragrenadehadgothim.Wellitwasreallyjustmeat.They’dputabandageonit.Butyounever
08:30 hadbigbandagesoranything.Youhadafielddressingthatwideinalittleroll.ItwasthesameasLesSkinnerwhenhegothisblownoff.Weslammedashirtinthewound.Youhadnohopeofstoppingthebloodandyoucouldn’tbutatourniqueton–couldn’tgetithighenough.
09:00 He’dhavediedanycasewithinahalfhourafterhegothitbecauseofthebloodhewaslosing.Iseenfellasuptherewithawfulbloodywounds,shotinthegutsandlikethatblokewithhisfoot,
09:30 badwounds,allright.I’veseenblokesgettheirfingerblownoffanddiethatnight.AndIsaidtotheolddoctorwehad“Whywouldhedielikethat?”Hesaid,“Shock.Whentheshockhithim.”Shockkillsmostincaraccidentsandthat.
10:00 AlittleladfromupatLockwood–Williamswashisname–wewerewaitingforhimtogetthecount[die]youknowandtheyputonabitofabloodyattack.Theytriedthreeorfourtimestobreakthroughontheside.Andhe,Williams,wassittingatarubbertreejustlikethischewingabloodydogbiscuit.
10:30 Andifyoueverseenthemthey’reashardasthehobsofhell.Hewasgnawingonthat.AndIspoketohim.Isaid,“HowyougoingHarry?”Andhesaid,“Allright.”Andhewassittingthere.Hewasacook’sassistant.Andhewasgivenarifleandbungedup.Everyonethatcouldfireabullettheywasgettingthatlighton.
11:00 Andtheybrokethroughupthere.AndIturnedaroundtowherehewassittingandhewasstillsittingthere.Andthehandthatthebiscuitwasinwasthere.Ithoughthelookedfunny.Ispoketohimandtherewasnoanswer.He’sgotaholethroughthere.Hewasdead.Wherethey’dfiredwheretheybrokethrough.
11:30 Andhewassittingatthisrubbertree.Wellyou’dreckonhewassafewherehewas.Buttheycomethroughonthatangle.Theyweretryingtooutmanoeuvreus.Theygothim.HisparentswereupatLockwood.IwrotetothemwhenIcameback.ItoldthemthatIwascomingdown.Igothiswalletandthat.IwastomeetherontheAlburyStation.
12:00 Isortofpsychedmeselfupreadytomeether.Thetraincomein.TheyputoverthePAsystem,“MrsLockwoodwouldliketospeaktoher”onthestation.No-onegotoffthetrainoranything.AndIgetaletterfromher.Shecouldn’tfaceme.
12:30 SoIwrotealetterandIputitinanenvelopeandsentherthewalletandthat.Shewrotebackandthankedme.Butshecouldn’tfaceme.Icanhonestlytellyouhesufferednopain.Iwastalkingtohimandtheybrokethroughwhichwasonlyamatterof
13:00 afewminutesitlasted.Icansmellthecorditefloatingthroughtheair.Andhejust–thebiscuitwasstillinhishandthereandhe’sdead.Sittingup.Hisheadhadn’tdroppeddownornothing.Hewasjustsittingthere.
13:30 Itaffectsdifferentonesdifferentways.Isupposeit’sthesameinpresentlife.Youcanget–wellIhadaheartattack.Ihaditforthreedays.Ihadthisterriblefeelinginmychest.IthoughtIhadindigestion.
14:00 TheygivemeabookwhenIwascomingoutallaboutit.Isaid,“Ifyou’dhavegivenmethisbeforeithappenedI’dhaveknownwhatwasgoingtohappen.”Butitcanhityou.AssoonasIlaiddownwaswhenIknewtheterriblepainthatwasshootingupmyarm.ButIneverhadthat.Soit’sjustthesamewithIthink
14:30 iftheirtime’scomethat’sit.They’vegivenblokesnewhearts,thingslikethat,butthey’vestilldied.
WhataboutthewoundedatKokoda?Howdidtheyfare?
Theysentthemout.That’swhytheyleftusbehind.Theyleft9Platoon
15:00 behind.Theytook7and8Platoonoutwiththewounded.That’ssomethingthatInevereverforgiventhe2IC[SecondinCommand]ofthecompany.Heshouldhavecomethroughtous.He’dnoneedtogooutwiththewounded.Heshouldhavecomethrough.Don’ttellusthattheywereleavingustogetthewoundedandthatout,buthedidn’t.Inevereverhadmuchtimeforhimanyhow.
15:30 I’mIsupposeyou’dcallabloodylarrikinformylife.Buthewasabugger.Heboozedandhe’dborrowoffhismatesandneverpayitbackandthingslikethat.Hewasareal–Iwasgoingtosaya‘a’hole.Buthe’sdeadIthink.I
16:00 don’tknowwhetherhegotknockedoverorsomethingupinSydney.Somethinghappened.Buthe’sgone.EventheCO[CommandingOfficer]–thecompanycommander.Heshouldhaveknownbetterforhimtocomeouttotakehimout.HewasaWesternAustralian.He’dbeenintheMiddleEast.See,theysentusallnewofficers.Someofthemwererealgoodofficers.
16:30 ButIthinkIwasjusttheunluckyone.Myblokeshotthroughonme.IsupposeitwasagoodthinginonewaybecauseIwasmeownmanthen.Isaidtothebatman,“Whereishe?”Hesaid,“He’sgonebacktolookforanotherposition.”
17:00 Ineverseenhimagaintillwecomeoutofthemountainsandthatwasonlyfortenminutes.There’stwothingsthearmydidgoodforme.Onewaswhentheysentmetodothatschool.Thatwasthreemonthsormoreseedownattheofficers’schoolinAlbury.Theytoldme“Ifwedon’thavetogobackin
17:30 we’regoingtosendyoudowntotheschoolotherwiseyou’llgetyourcommissionupthere.”Wellbynotgettingsentbackinthentheygotanewbattalionthathadcomethroughandtheysentthemup.Iwouldn’tbeherenow.I’dhavegotkilledatGona.WhileIwasdownattheschool
18:00 theywentupintoGonaandSananadaandWewakandthemplaces.Therewasonly27cameoutfromupthere.Theykeptgettingpushedinandtheyweregettinglessandless.Thereweresevenofficersand27allrankscomeout.IfIhadn’tgotkilledupthereI’dhavegotkilledlateron.
18:30 BecauseI’dhavehadmecommissionandIcouldn’tsendsomeonetodosomethingthatIwouldn’tdomyself.Whichthat’sasIsaythisblokeshouldhavecomeandtolduswewerebeingleftbehind.Heshouldhavetoldus.Ifhe’dhavebeenadecent
19:00 fellowhewouldhave.
Howdidyoufeelabouttheleadersthatyouhadingeneral?
Ihadacoupleofgoodleaders.There’sacoupleofthemstillalive.Buttheirmemoriesaregone.Oneofthemwasdecorated.
19:30 ButatKokodainmyoriginalsectionthreeweregivenMilitaryMedals.Andtherewasonlyfiveoftheoriginalsthere.Sosomeonedidsomegood.They’reall,barone,gone.
20:00 RonDrydendiedinBallarat.VicSmythedied–hehadablockupatRobinvale.Hegotitafterhe’dbeenbattlingaroundMelbourneskinningrabbitsandthat.Heputinforablockandhegotablockupthere.He’sdead.Alec–
20:30 he’sstillalivebuthe’shadastroke.Hedon’tgoanywhere.Therestofthemaregone.Thosethatdidn’tgetkilledtheregotkilledupatGona.Theyjustkeptpushingthembackin.That’swhatI’msaying,thearmydonegood.IwasattheschoolwhentheywentinuptheretoGona.
21:00 AndSananada.OtherwisewhenIwassixtydayslayingonmybackinBallaratthearmypaidforit.
SoafteryouwerefightingatDeniki,that’swhenyoumetupwiththe2/14th.
Theymetupwithus.We’dhavegonethatnight.
21:30 We’dtakenahellofalotofcasualtiesthatday.Andweweretogooutwhenthisbattalioncamein.Wedidn’tknowitwasthe2/14ththatwascomingintous.Butwehadthiscommander,ColonelHonner,andhe–Ibailedhimupcomingin–askedhimwherehewasgoing.Henevertoldme
22:00 whohewas.AndIhadalittleholejustbesidethetrackbehindalittlebitofabush.WhenIstoodupwithatommygunfacinghimhestopped.Iaskedhimwherewashegoingorwheredidhethinkhewasgoing.Isaid,“Becausethey’reangryupthere.”Andhesaidwhohewas.WellIsaid,“Youwantbattalionheadquarters.”AndHarryBarklerwasthere.
22:30 AndIsaid,“Harry,takehimuptothewhat’s-a-name.”Sohetookhimup.Igotonallrightwithhim.HewastheonethatrecommendedIgototheschool.AlsoBrigadierPorter.Hecomeup.Hedidn’tlookanythinglikeabrigadierwhenIseenhim.Hehadnoshirton.Bloodybigbloke.Hewasthecommissionerofpolice.
23:00 Ibaledhimupandallhehadwasa–notashirt–awoollenarmyjumpertiedaroundhiswaist.Hewasbare-chestedandhewasprettywhite.AndIsaid,“Hehasn’tdonetoomuch.”Hewasn’tdirty.Hesaid,“WhatwasI?"Isaid,“Wheredoyouthinkyou’regoing?”
23:30 Andhesaid,“Why?Who’sgoingtostopme?”Isaid,“Ithink”–IgotthetommygunonthestrapsittingonmyhiptherelookingathimandIjustwentlikethat.Isaid,“Ithinkmematecouldstopyou.”Andheexplainedwhohewasverysmart.Hesaid,“Howdoyoulikeit?”Isaid,“Verygood.”Hesaid,“Giveusalookatit.”Isaid,“Ohno.”
24:00 Heputhishandout.
Youweren’tgoingtogiveupyourtommygun?
No.Becausethenhe’dhavechargedmeforhandingmyweaponover.Butheneverstoppedatbattalionheadquarterslong.Theyputonabitofanattackandhe–Iseehimcomingoutveryquick.Anyhowhewasoneofthebrigadierswhogot
24:30 shortshuntedtooupthere.Blameydidsomeawfulthingsyouknow.Ifhe’dbeenamanthathadbeenupthereonthetrackandseentheconditionsthattheywerefighting!Hewroteandtoldthem“Rabbitsthatrungetshot.”
25:00 Wellhewasn’ttheretorun.That’snotacommander.AsIsaidbeforeIreckonthatheandMacArthurwereatloggerheadstoseewhocouldoutdotheother.See,MacArthurreckonstheyshouldhavejustpushedthemstraightbackinthesea.Thatwasallright.
25:30 HelostalotofmentoouptherearoundGona.ButifithadbeenlefttotheYanksthey’dhavebeeninMoresby.Wherewefireoneshotorthrowonegrenade,they’dthrowaboxful.Theyhadthefirepowerandthattohavewonthewar.Welltheyproveditoverinthislaststoushwiththestuffthattheythrew.
26:00 Ireckontheywerecleaningoutalltheoldstufftheyhadoverthere.
WereyouactuallytherewhenBlameysaidthataboutrabbits?
No.Ican’tthinkwherethehell–whetherIwasgonedowntotheschool.ButwhenIwenttotheschoolIhadtogotocorpsheadquarterstogetmepapers
26:30 toleavetheislands.Togototheschool.AndstandingbesideatreeisthisblokeandIknowhim.He’sTomAnearcomefromClunes.“GoodGod,Tom,whatareyoudoinghere?”“I’monguardduty.”Isaid,“Whatthehellareyouguarding?”“GeneralBlamey.”Isaid,“Whereishe?”Hesaid,“Downthere.Inadugout.
27:00 Athisheadquartersdowninadugout.”SothatwastheclosestIgottohim.Igotmypapersandflewoutattwoo’clockinthemorningonaSunderland.ByGodthatwascold.
Tellmealittlebitmoreaboutwhenthe2/14thjoinedyou.Youmusthavebeenprettygladtoseethem.
Myword.
27:30 AsIsaidbefore,therewasonlyfiveofmyplatoonthatwasfittofight.Andwasgivenlittlejobslikeonpatrolsandthat.Andtheygavemeputtingthedifferentcompaniesandthatintoposition.
28:00 WellIledoneintopositionandthat’swhenthatofficertoldmetostandupandwalklikeasoldier.HegotpolitelytoldandIcan’trepeatthewordswhathecoulddo.Theotherbloke,IwastalkingtothemandthataswewentinandIputthemintopositionandIsaid,“That’syourfront.You’llknowdirectly.Thehatesession’llbeon.”
28:30 Wecalleditahatesessionwhentheyputonanattack.Isaid,“Justbecarefultoo,theygotamountain
gun.”That’ssomethingthatweneverhad.Theyfiredthismountaingun,fireddecentshellstoo.Theheaviestweaponthatwehadatthisstagewasatwoinchmortar.Itonlyfiredasmallone.
29:00 Itoldthem,showedthemthefront,wheretoexpectanytrouble.Buggeritall,heputonabayonetcharge.Theybroughthimout.Hewasn’tinactionthereanhour.Withnotoponhishead.He’stheblokewhowastellingmetostandupbecauseyouhadtogoinbehindthislittlerise.Andtheywereinhereandifyoustoodupstraightyourheadwasgoingalongthetopof
29:30 this.Andthat’swhenhegotit.Hegotkilledanyhow.You’renotontheparadeground.Ifyouthoughtyoucouldstilldothejobandcrawlyouwouldhave.Thatdidn’tgodownwellwithme.
30:00 Whentheycameintheysaid,“We’repullingout.”Wesentthewalkingwoundedout.We’dbeupthetrackIsupposeabouthalfanhourandarunnercaughtuptosaythatthe14thwasintroublesoeveryonethatcouldwalk
30:30 turnedaroundandcomebacktosupportthe14th.
Eventhewounded?
Thosethatwerecapableofcarryingarifle.Wehadgreatadmirationforthe14thandtheyhaditforus.Anditwasmainlybecausewewentbacktohelpthemout.
31:00 Theydiditforus.We’dhavegonethatnight.We’dhavegotwipedout.Wehadnohopeofholdingthembecausetheywerepushinguptroops,freshtroops.See,evenfromKokoda,whatImean,127ofusorsomethingwereatKokodaandwe’refighting2,000
31:30 troopsthey’dthrowninagainstus.Theythoughtthebattalionwasinit.WeweredowntofiringtracerbulletsatKokodainthefinish.ItlookedlikeGuyFawkesnight.Tracersflyingthroughtheair.Wewouldn’thavehadanyammunitionleft.Wewereusingthe
32:00 antiaircraftammunition.TakingitoutofmagazinestofireitthroughtheBrenguns.No.Theorganisationwasn’tuptoscratch.Ifwe’dhavehadmoreintelligenceevenofthetrack.Ifithadn’tbeenforacoupleoftheoldplantationowners–
32:30 theyweretheonesthatwereagreathelptous.SeethePapuaninfantrymen,theyonlyhadspecificjobstodo.GuardtheFuzziesandthat.
33:00 Theworkhorses,theonesthatwerebringinguptheammunitionandthingslikethat.Theyneverdidmuchinthelineoffightingbarprobablydoingpatrolling.AsIsaid,wehadaPapuanwithus.Hewasasbigaswhat’s-a-name,hewasabigfella.Andhewaslikeafeather.Hecouldmove
33:30 andhe’dhavehislegintheairandhe’dstillholditthere.He’dheardsomethingandhedidn’twanttoputhisfootdown.Hewastheonethattippedusofftowherethemachinegunsandthatwere.Ourblokes’dseeamovementandthey’dfireatit.That
34:00 wasadeadgiveawaybecausetheJaps,theyeitherhadavineontoabushandthey’dgetthebushandthevineapullandthebush’dmove.Ofcoursethegunnerusedtoopenuponit.Butthat’salltheywanted.Theywereoverthereandtheyopeneduponthegunner.Thatonly
34:30 happenedonceortwiceandyoulearntquickthattheyfelltotheirowntricks.Theywerejunglewise.Buttheydidn’tknowthattheyweredealingagainstAussies.Andahellofalotofuswerebushpeopleandwesoonlearnt.Learntveryquick.
35:00 EarlyinthegameIthinkItoldyouIhadtroublewithmyfeet.Inevertookmybootsoffforsixweeks.Iwasn’tgame.BecauseIdidn’tknowwhatI’dfoundwhenItookthemoff.Sowhenwecameoutwehadtogothroughabigtent.TherewasabigNissenhut.Youwentinoneendandyoujuststrippedoff
35:30 everything.Undidyourbootswhatwasn’tfallingoff.Theheelshadgoneandthat.Andyoursockswereweldedtoyourfoot.Alltheribsofthesocksweredugintoyou.Sotheycutthemoff,theydo.Theyrunthescissorsdownthemandtheypeeledoff.AndIdidn’tknowwhatwasgoingtocomeoffinmysock.Andmyfeetwereaswhiteasthedrivensnow.
36:00 I’veneverhadsorefeet,soretoes,thatsince.Notinea,nodermatitis,nothing.Theotherfellashaditalluparoundtheirprivates,upundertheirarms,tineaordermatitisorwhateveryouliketocallit.AndIsaidtothedoctors,“Why?”Theonlythingthey
36:30 couldputitdowntothattherewasnoairgettinginthere.Theywerewhiteandtheystillare.
Nottakingyourshoesoffactuallypaidoff.
Yeah.Probablycuttingtheairoff.Wetallthetime.It’drain,she’dstartrainingatfouro’clockandit’drainthroughthenighttilldaybreak.Andifyoucouldseeoffthemountain
37:00 youwerelookingdownontheclouds.Theyreckonwecouldholdthemwithafewmen.Fiftymencouldholdanyarmyback.Theysaid,“HoldthemattheGap.”TheGapwasfivemilewide.TheyreckontheplanescomethroughtheGap.Itwas
37:30 atleastfivemilewide.Andfiftymenweregoingtoholdit.Thatwastheintelligence.Theydidn’tknow.EventheblokesthathadbeeninMoresbyalltheirlifeorinthemountainsorupthereinNewGuinea.Theyknewtherewasagapthereandtheythoughttheywerewalkingalongit.Itwasatleastfivemilewide.Theplanesusedto
38:00 sightthemountainsandthey’dgotthroughtheGap.Becausetheyknewthattheycouldgothroughthereandwouldn’trunintoapeakorsomething.WhenweleftIsuravaitwasthefirsttimeinthehistorythatthemilitiabattalionhad
38:30 foughtarearguardactiontoanAIFbattalion.Wetookapositionuptoletthe14thcomethroughusatEobaCreek.Theywentthroughtotakeupaposition.ThisEobaCreekhadabiglogonitwhatyouwentacross.Thelog,it’dbethatroundanditwasafairdroptothewater.Anda
39:00 veryfaststream.Whentheygetusthesignaltogetouttheysaidtometoleadyourblokesoutandgetoutquick.Wegotoutquick.IwentacrossthislogandIthinkatordinarytimesyoutakehalfadozensteps.Ididitintwo.Youwentstraightupthen.Theyhadnothingwhenwewentoverthemountains.Butwhenyou’regoingbackwasthesestepstheyhadup.
39:30 Theywereabouttwofeetbetweeneachstep.Iwastakingthemtwoatatime.Becauseyoudidn’tknowwheretheyweregoingtoopenupfrom.Someofthemcouldn’twalkonit,sotheysatdownonit.Leavingthemselvesofcourseonthehands.Thatwasnogoodcausetherewaslumpsofwoodflyingoutofwheretheywereshooting.Soalotofthemdroppeddownintothestreamandwentdownstream
40:00 andtheyhadahellofaclimbtogetbackup.ItoldyouIwasalwaysfit.EvenupthereandwithouttuckeroranythingIcouldstillmove.WhenI’dgettothetopthenyoucouldcoveranybodyfromthetoptogetup.ButwhenIseetheseblokes–ablebodiedblokes
40:30 whocouldn’tgoover–walkastraightlinewithoutwobbling.EvenwhenIcamebackIwasworkinginthesaleyardsforawhileandblokescouldn’twalkacrossfromonepentotheother.Isaid,“Youfellas’lllearn.Ifyoufallinthebullocks’llhaveyou.”
Justnervereally.
Idon’tknow.Theycouldn’thave
41:00 hadbalanceorsomething.YouheardofCanungra,thatwasaverytoughcoursetheyreckon.Inevergotthechancetogothere.SowhenIwassenttoBathursttothe27thAITB[AustralianInfantryTrainingBattalion]andthatwasatrainingbattalion…
Imighthavetocallapausethere.
Tape7
00:30 I’minterestedtoknowaboutyourinteractionwiththePapuanInfantryBattalion.ThePIB.
Neverhadmuchtodowiththem.BecauseIdidn’tknowtheirlanguageandIneverhadtimetolearn.IcouldmakethemunderstandwhatIwanted.
01:00 AndtheymusthaveknownbecausetheydidwhatIasked.Butthefellasthatwereonthestretcherandthattheywereonlylads.Theywereonlykids.Isupposetheymighthavebeenthirteenorfourteensomeofthem.Buttheywereaprettygood
01:30 physiquepeople.Whentheycamedownheretothis‘SpiritofKokoda’[veterans’reunion]therewasoneoldfellathatwasherethatwaswithusonthetrail.Therewasonlyone.Theyusedtowheelhiminawheelchair.Andtheyallhadnewsuitson.
02:00 Isupposetheyneverhadasuitbefore.Allshinyblacksuitsbecausetheyhadnowheretowearthemupthere.Youdidn’twantasuitupinthemountains.Wantanovercoatatnighttimeandapairofshortsinthedaytime.Thatwasanotherthingonthetrail–wemightaswellhadwhiteshirts
02:30 andtrousersbecausewestuckoutagainstthegreenbackgroundofthejungleinfadedkhaki.Itwasjustlikeawhiteshirtholdingupagainstablackboard.Withleavesandthattheytriedtodipclothesinto
03:00 aliquidofboiledupleavesandthat–itboltedthecolouralittlebit.14thBattalion,whentheycame,theyhadgreenshirtsandtrousersandthat.Whichmadethemabitdifferent.Butwestuckoutlikesorefingers.
03:30 Wrappedupinwhitesheet.Whichwasadisadvantagetostartwith.That’sanotherthing.IfBennetthadbeentherehecouldhavetoldushowtheyweredressed.Theyhadcamouflageuniforms.Theygotthemnow.Butthat’stoolate.
DidyoucomeupagainstWoodpeckers[Japanesemachinegun]?
Itellyouwhat.Oneday
04:00 IwenttoBallaratwhentheywerebuildingthevillageinthere–thebigsupermarketandthat.TheVillage,theycallit.It’sgotallthedifferentshops.Theywereputtingthisverandahthingoverthedoorway.Andholyhell!Inearlywenttoground.Ithoughtitwasawoodpeckerstartingup.Thedrill?
04:30 Shewasthedeadringerofawoodpecker.Thisotherblokesaidtome“Iknowwhereyou'vebeen.”Andhewasablokefromthe2/14ththatI’dmetupthere.HewasabouttheonlyblokethatIeverknewbackincivilianlife.He’sstillsomewhereinBallarat.Ithink.
05:00 HisnamewasKent.ItwasliketheWoodpecker.She’dpeckpeckpeck.Wehadnothinglikeit.'Peckerswerenogoodtousuptherebecauseyouneverhadthefieldoffire.Ifyoucouldseeinastraightline–
05:30 thirtyyardsmighthavebeenthelongestyoucouldseeinthejungle.Youcouldn’tcutafieldoffirebecausethatwasadeadgiveawaywherethegunwas.
HowdidtheJapaneseusetheirwoodpeckers?
Theyjustsetherup
06:00 andlethergoIthink.Theyhadafairideawherewewereandtheyjustfiredit.She’dopenupatanytime–bangbangbangbang.IknowthatdayinBallarat,byGoditseemedreal.
Howdidthe
06:30 soldiersperformunderthatsortoffire?How’dtheyreact?
Welltheywentforcover.Youeithergotogroundorforatreeorsomething.Theyhadtrees.Thetreesupthere–therewassomeenormoustreesand
07:00 alltherootshadbigwingsoutonthem.Andyou’dreckonifyou’reluckyenoughtogodownbehindoneofthemyou’dbeallright.Butthe.303wouldgothroughthem.Theywereaboutthatthickandit’dgothroughit.Verysofttimber.Godtheygrow.
07:30 Yougetaneckacheholdingyourheadbacklookingatthem.Seewheretheywent.Andnotonlythatyouhadtoputupwithwhattheycall‘LawyerVine’.Thathadathornonit.Therewasn’tmanyshirtsthatwerestillwhole.Ourdoctorhewasdeaf.
08:00 Hehadasafarijacket.Hehadastethoscopeinonepocket.Hehadapocketknifeandsomethingelseintheotherpocket.Butthatwasaboutthestrengthofhisinstruments.Itwasn’ttilllaterthatyougotapanniergiventoyou.SomethinglikethatbagthatIhadon.
08:30 Thathadmorphineandthatinit.Butwhenwewanteditwedidn’thaveit.Itwasn’tavailable.Eventhemedicalthings,see,theyweren’t–shouldhavebeenprepared.You’regoingtofightawar,you’regoingtohavecasualties.Sothereforeyoushouldhavehadstuff
09:00 todealwithit.Nowadays–ifwe’dhadlikeVietnamhad–bloodyhelicoptersinpickupthewoundedandgone.TheytriedlandingatMyola.Theystartedadumptherewiththebullybeefbombers[supplyplanes].
09:30 Theyusedtocomeoveratdifferentareaandtheydroppedtinsofbiscuitsandtwelvepoundtinsofbullybeef.Butyounevergothalfit.Iteithergotburiedwhenitlandedortheydroppedittoofarforward.TheyweredroppingitfromtoohighanditdroppedintotheJaplines.
10:00 TheonlytimeitwasanygoodwasthetimetheydroppedthebullybeefandthetinsbustandthetimetheJapsgotit,itgivethemdysentery.Theyputadump–theycarteditupfromMyola,therewasallthisbullybeefandthat.Sowecouldn’tcarryit.Sowebayoneted
10:30 itall.Stuckaholethroughit.Wellthat’swhatbeattheJapsinthefinish–thediarrhoeaanddysenterygotatthem.
Didyouhavediaroeahoa?
No.
Throughoutthewholecampaign.
No.
Nosicknessatall.
No.No.
WhataboutGympieBush?
Who?
HaveyouheardofGympieBush?
11:00 Stungwithabush?Thatbushthatstungyou?Yeah.Wegotintothatonce.
Whathappened?
Nothing.Itusedtoitchlikehell.Butthatwastheleastofmyworries.ButInevergotmalaria.Inevergotdysentery.Inevergotscrubtyphus.TheybitmeandI’dpullthemoff.Iwokeup.
11:30 You’dputacigaretteonthem,you’dgetthemout.Butifyoudidn’tgettheheadout.Thatdidthedamagewherehekeptgoingin.Denghifeverknockedalotofthem.Speciallywithmalaria.Buttheybitme.Mylips’dallswellup.Andanywhere–nowwhereyou’vegotyourtrouserstightthere,themosquitoes’dbitethere.Andbringuplumpsonyou.
12:00 No.Ihadaqueerbloodgroup.B3.TherewasonlyoneotherblokethatIknewthathadaB3bloodgroup.Youasksomeofthedoctorsnow,“What’saB3bloodgroup?”What?Theydon’tknow.SoIdon’tknowwhattheycallitnow.Butit’lldome.
12:30 Nowonanothernote,whatwasitliketofaceJapanesesoldiersinhandtohandcombat?
Wenevermethandtohandmorethanacoupleoftimes.Ineverbotheredaboutputtingwithabayonetoranything.Ihadagunonmyshoulder.
13:00 Youputitonthesingleshotandblowaholethroughthem.Noarguingthepointwithasubmachinegun.Youonlyhadtohitthem.Ifyouhitthemintheshoulderyouknockedthemheadoverpoodle.Butitwasn’tyourshoulderhewaslookingfor.Anyhow,soonastheydroppedtheirmedicshadthem.
13:30 TheseJapanesewerequitebigchapsweren’tthey?
Theywereblokes–alotoftheaverageofthemwasasbigasyou.Andweweretoldtheywerejustlittlefellasandtheyworeglasses.Yeah.Theyworeglassesandtheycouldshoot.Theycouldshoot.Ineverseenthemwithglasses.Buttheyhadathing–theycouldstandbehindatreeandtheycouldwatchyou.
14:00 Likeaperiscope.Usedtostickoutaroundthesidearoundthetree.Weneverhadanythinglikethat.Theirrifleswere.25andtheywerefarsuperiorIreckoned.Theywouldn’toutlastourriflesbecauseourrifleshadbeengoingsincetheFirstWar.
14:30 Ourswerealotheavier.Andtheytookabiggerammunition–303.ButthenwhenourcampaignwasfinishinginthemountainswegottheOwengunwhichwasonlyhalftheweightoftheThompsonandthatwasninemillimetre.
15:00 Youcouldcarrymoreammunition.ButtheoldLewisgunweusedtocallthe‘anti-looseyguns’.Becausetheyusedtospreadbulletseverywhere.Theyweren’tveryaccurate,buttheyspreadthemwide.
Nowbecausetherewassomuchmudandrain…
15:30 Youknow,theynevereverboughtusanyoil.You’deitherpeeinitor–thatwasoneoftheproblemswithasubmachinegun.Ifyou’vegotmudonityou’reintrouble.
IsthattheOwengun?
Yeah.You’relikelytogetastoppage.Ineverusedmesubmachinegun
16:00 withoutitwasonsingleshot.Whyfiretenbulletswhenonewilldothesamejob?The.303wasagoodrifle.Butitwastooheavy.Speciallywhenyouhadallyourothergear.
16:30 Therewasn’tmanyBrens.WeneverhadBrengunstillwewerehalfwayoverthemountains.AndtheFuzzyscaughtuptouswithboxesofnewBrenguns.Andtheywerecoveredingrease.Greasewasjust
17:00 piledonthem.Theyneversentnothingtocleanitoff.Youwereusingbananaleavesandlantanaleavesandthattotryandcleanthisgreaseandthatofftheguns.
Soyoucouldn’tfirethegununlessyoucleanedthegrease?
Itwouldjam.Theywerejustsmotheredingrease.Liketheywerepreserved’
17:30 ingrease.Andwe’dneverhandledthem.Therewasno-onetheretotellushowtoworkthemoranything.Youlearntthattoo,quick.
Wereyoualwaysontherunthroughoutthecampaign?
Alwaysmoving.
Alwaysretreating?Basically.
Yeah.Inthemountainsitwaswithdrawing.Seethe
18:00 bestformofactionistoattackbecausetowithdrawyou’vegottofightandmoveatthesametime.
Backwards,though.Youseethat’swhyyouheld,that’showwewerethefirstbattaliontohold,tofightarearguardaction
18:30 forthe2ndAIF.AndwhenIsaidtothelastbloke,“Howmanytocomeafteryou?”Hesaid,“Myblokesarethelast.”Andthatwasthe14thpullingback.Thatwashelterskeltertobreak.Becausealotofthetimestheydidn’t
19:00 knowyouwerebreaking.Andiftherewasonlyafewofyouthatmadeiteasier.Youdidn’thavetheworryofsay20or30troopscomingbackinahurry.Whentherewasnine.Iputon–
19:30 IhadfiveblokesonastandingpatrolatKake.Thatwasoneoftheplaces.Andweweren’ttofire.Soonasweseencontactweweretopullback.WellIsupposewebeenthereaboutanhourandahalf.Yougetasensethatthere’ssomethingdoing.
20:00 Wewerelayingthere.Wehadthislittletrackcovered.IknewtherewassomethingsomewhereandIseenalittlemovementabovemehead.Igraduallypushedmeheadbacklikethatandsitting–ifIcouldhavesatupquickIcouldhavegrabbedit–
20:30 wasabirdofparadise.Haveyoueverseenone?Prettyaren’tthey?Wellhewassittingthreefeetabovemehead.Sowemusthavebeenprettyquietforhimtocomedownlikethat.ByGee!hewaspretty.Andtothinktheyusedtoshootthem–thePapuansusedtogetthemforsouvenirs.
21:00 They’dhavetheminheadgearandthat.Buttheydidn’tshootthem.Idon’tknowhowtheygotthem.SpearedthemorsomethingIsuppose.OrdinaryPapuans–Inevereverseenthemwithfirearms.
Didtheyeverrunawayordesert?
Who?Ohsomeofthem
21:30 disappeared.Butit’sawondertheydidn’tbecausetheyweretreatedharshlytheresometimes.
Bywho?
By–wellbyourownblokesandthat.Theythoughtthattheywerethebossoverthem.Whichwaswrong.Theyweredoingthesamejobaswhatyouweredoing.Ioftenfeltsorryforsomeofthemyoung
22:00 blokes.Someofourownblokeswerelikebullockdrivers.Theyabusedthem.ByChristwe’dhavebeenboggeddownwithoutthem.Iknowalotofblokesthat’salivetoday,theygottothankthePapuansthatthey’restillalive.
Socanyougivemeanexampleofhowthe
22:30 Australiansinsomeinstancestreatedthembadly?
They’dstandoverthemandroaratthemlike“Youblackmongrels!”andthat.Butthemblokestheyweren’tblokesatall.Iftheywerenow
23:00 they’dbethugs.Intoday’sliving.Iwasalwaystaught,'totreatyouasIfindyou.'ButifyougotonmytoesIcouldflareup.
23:30 ButI’vehadargumentswithblokes.Icalledfourofthemonceuphere.AllthelowmongrelsthatIcouldthinkof.
Theywerefromthe39th?
No.JustcivilianshereafterIcomeback.
Whywasthat?
When
24:00 youusedtorunthecattleonCrownland,butyoupaidsomuchahead,butthereturnedsoldierswereallowedtoruntwomilkersfree.Whenmyturncomeuptheytriedtoknockmeback.SoIchallengedthem.Therewasfourofthem.Andtheylockedthemselvesintheshedwhereweweredoingthe
24:30 branding.Theywouldn’tcomeout.IcalledthemeverythingthatIcouldthinkof,butdoyouknownotoneofthemwouldstepoutsidethedoor.Justaswelltheydidn’t.
WhenthosesoldierswerespeakingdownuponthePapuans,whatwasyourreactiontothat?
OhI’dsay,“Breakitdownsport.They’redoingadecentjobasitisnow.
25:00 Ifthat’sworryingyousomuch,haveagoyourself.”Yougetaboxofammunitionandthere’soneoneachendofastickcarryingitandIsupposeit’dbeoverahundredweightinthatboxofammunitionandyou’recarryingituphillsanddownhillsand
25:30 slidingandslipping,it’snotaneasyjob.Orget500roundsoftommygunammunitioninabox.That’s
anounceineachbullet.It’s–wellIneverseentheseblokesagain.
26:00 Idon’tevenknowwhatbattalion–whethertheyweresomeworkforce.See,theysentblokesfromWesternAustraliaoverandwhenthingsgotshorttheycomeovertobeaworkbattalion.Theypushedthepoorcowsinto–asinfantrymen.Andtheydidn’tknowthefirstthingaboutit.Idon’tthinksomeofthemcouldhavehitahaystackiftheywerestanding
26:30 alongsideofit.See,that’swrong.Itwasthesameasthe53rdBattalion.Ireckonyouwereentitledtobeinstructedandyouwereentitledtosaygoodbye.AsIsaidbefore,someofthemmadedamngoodsoldiers.Therewasquitea
27:00 fewwentasreinforcementsintothe39thatGonasomewhere.That’sonlywhatI’veread.
WereyouattheBattleofIsurava?WasitatthispointwhereyousawsomeAustralianstieduptotrees?Iheardstoriesofthat?
No.ThatwasupGona
27:30 andSananadaandWewak.Theygotthese–youknowhowyouseenasheephowyou’dboneasheepoutyou’dseehisribsandeverythinghangingup?Thisfellasaidtome,“Itwasjustasthough
28:00 you’dbonedoutinabutchershop.They’dgotallthemeattheycouldgetoffit.”AndhowtheyknowthatitwastheJapsthatdidit–whentheyshotsomeofthemtheyhaditintheirhaversacks.Themeatinthehaversacks.Buttheyhadnothingelse.Theywerecutoff.That’swhatItriedtotellyoubefore.Thattheycouldhavejustheldthem,justheldthemthereandstarvedthemout.
28:30 Eitherthatortheycouldhavegoneintothesea,swumoutintothesea.
DidtheJapanesekillAustralianprisonersofwarontheKokodaTrackwhenyouwerefighting?
NotthatIknowof.Idon’tknowofanylikeourblokesthathavebeenshotas
29:00 prisoners.Wellwetooknoprisoners.Wehadone.Andhewascomingbackdownthetrack.Theyweresendinghimbackandthisblokewastakinghimback.Poorcow.Idon’tknowwhetherhewasaJap.HecouldhavebeenSingaporeanorsomeone.
29:30 Buthewasthatskinny.Andhewasgoingbackdownthetrackandthebloodycookshothim.Theblokethatwasbringinghimdownwas20or30yardsbehindhimandasthisblokewentaroundthisbushthecookwascomingupandthecookgrabbedhisriflewashangingonhisshoulderandwentbang.Andthedoctorsaidwhatkilledhimwastherustpoisoncomingouttherifle.
30:00 That’stheonlyshothefired.Andhebowledhimover.Buthewasonlya–Ithinkhewasoneoftheworkersthattheybrought.Theybroughtalot.Idon’tknowwhethertheywereKoreansor…
That’swhatIwasgoingtoaskyou,didyoucomeacrossanyKoreans?MaybehewasaKorean.
No.Imighthaveseenadozen.
Weretheyfighting?
30:30 No.Theyweredoingthework.LiketheFuzzyswere.WhenIwenttotheschoolthatwaswhentheJapprisonersbrokeoutatCowra.Youknow.Haveyouheard?WellthatisnotfarfromwheretheOTSwasandwewentto–
31:00 theylinedusallupandcalledforvolunteerstogoandroundthemup.Theywantedsomanytogoout.Butyoudidn’ttakeariflewithyou.Allyoucarriedwasabayonetonyourbelt.Andtheycalledforvolunteers.“Stepforwardallthosethat’llvolunteertogoandroundthemup.”Therewasfourblokesdidn’tstepforward.
31:30 Iwasoneofthem.TheotherthreehadalsobeenupfightingJaps.Togoafterthemwithabayonet–noway.Yougofullycharged.
Didyouseeanyparticularlycrazythingstherewhileyouwereonthetrack?
No.
AnyoftheAussiesoldiersdoanypretty
32:00 braveorsillythings?
No.Butthe14th,youknow,theblokethatgottheVC[VictoriaCross]atIsurava,Iseenhimgothrough.Hewasn’tinthecrowdthatIputintoline.
32:30 TodosomethinglikethattowinaVC–it’seitherbaddisciplineoryougoneabitcrazy.See,becauseyou’veleftyourmatesandhe’sgotnobackupwhenhegoesin,whenhegrabsthegunand
33:00 chargesintoamachinegunnestorsomething.You’veeithergottobe–there’ssomethingclicksthat’snotright.Becauseninetimesoutoftenyougetkilled.It’slikealotofthesemotorcarsthat’shittingpolesontheroadandthat.There’sjustsomething’sgoneabitoffhisrocker[crazy]
33:30 orgonetosleeporhe’sdruggedorsomething.There’sgottobesomethingclicksthat’snotright.
Didyouseepersonallyactsofheroism?
Wellyouseeitahundredtimesyouwould,andtheydon’tgetamention.
Likewhat?
34:00 Theydon’tgetmentionedindespatchesor…
Whatsortofexamplesareyoureferringto?
Theymightbeoutofammunitionandtherunnerrunsammunitionouttothem.He’stakingtheriskofhislifejusttotakeupmoretokillthesame.Thathappens
34:30 alotoftimes.Youmightbegoingovertohelpyourmateoutorsomething.Oryoutakethosetwofrommysectionthatbothwerewoundedandtheystayedontheirgun.Iftheyhadn’t,othermateswouldhavegotwipedout.
Wouldyousaythattheexperiencewasterrifying?
35:00 Anybodythatwasthereandsaidtheywerenevereverfrightened–weren’tthere.Becausethere’stimeswhenitisterrifying.Speciallyifyou’regettingmortars,gettingunderamortarattackorsomethinglikethat.
35:30 It’ssomethingyoudon’tknow.Whereit’sgoingtoland?Oranything.Ihadabombthatlandedbesideme.AndIstaredatitIreckonforanhour,butitwasn’tthatlong.Anditdidn’texplode.Ithitinthetreefirstandcamedownandstuckinthegroundalongsideme.
36:00 Andneverwentoff.AsfarasIknowit’sstillthere.Thingslikethat–wellifitgoesoffyougetblowninhalf;ifyoustandupyougetshot.Sowhatareyougoingtodo?Hopethatit’sadud?Speciallywhenithitupthetree.Butyouknowtheblokethat’susingtherifleormachinegun
36:30 he’snodud.He’stheretokillyouandyou’retheretokillhim.
WhatsortofthingswouldtheJapanesesay?
Itellyouwhat–atKokodawehadthemsaying“WherewillIgoLowry?Lowry,wherewillIgo?”Andnextthingthemachinegun’dopenupontheside.RonDrydenorsomeone’d
37:00 hearhimandhe’dshutup.
TheJapanesewouldsaythat?
Ohyeah.Theytriedallthetricksinthebook.
Howwouldtheyknowyourname?
They’dprobablyheardyousaytome,“Larry,willIgoacrossthere?”
37:30 Itwastogetsomeonetoanswerthestation.
WhatothertricksdidtheJapanesesay?
Mainlythey’dgetontosomebody’snameandthey’dtrytoconhimbecause–wellitworkedIthinkattimes.Butnotwithmycrowd,
38:00 ourcompanythatIknowof.ButearlyBcompanygottrappedalot.They’dcallyouandthey’dconyou.JustthesameasIsaid.SoI’dsay,“HeyLowry,yougotamatch?
38:30 Orsmoke?”WhenI’vebeencrookIusedtolayandthink,youknowsmokingisoneoftheworstthingsyoucouldhavedoneinthejunglebecausenowIcansmelltobacco.
39:00 Anybody,evenwhenyougopastsomebodyinTheVillagewherethere’snosmoking.Icansmellthatthey’vejusthadasmoke.Wellespeciallyuptherewheretheairissothickthatsmokehangsthereandit’sadeadgiveaway.Speciallyifyou’regoingonapatrolorsomething.Neverthoughtofitthemdays,butnow!
39:30 Iworkoutalotofthingsinmemindwhatshouldhavebeendoneandwhatshouldn’thavebeendonewhenwewereupthere.Thinkdifferentlittlethingsthatcouldhavesavedlivesandthat.ButasIsaid,wehadnothingpassedontoustowarnusofthepitfalls
40:00 onthetrack.
CanyoutelluswhatsortoftacticstheJapanesewoulduseinthenight?
Thenighttime?No.Notmuch.No.TheyThenightbeforewegotoutDonHallethadhisthroatcut,sothere’dbeenoneofthemontheprowl.
40:30 ButIsupposethey’relikeeveryoneelse–theyhaveblokesthatprowl.CanIgoonandmentionsomethingofIraq?
Iraq?We’vejustactuallyrunoutoftapesoyoureallywon’thavetime.
Tape8
00:40 IwantedtoaskyouabitmoreaboutthebattleatIsharava.YouweregoingtotellustherewasacoupleofchapsfromBallarat.
TherewasO’ReillyandO’Donnell.Thereyouare,there’stwogoodIrishnamesforyou.
01:00 Itwasthefirsttimetheyusedthatmountaingun.Ithinktherewasalull.Thepadrecalledabitofachurchparade.We’djustfinishedthechurchparadeandthismountaingunwentoff.Theycalleditamountaingunbuttheycarrieditthroughthehills.Andshefiredadecentshell.
01:30 Thefirstonewentover.Everybodyscatteredassoonastheyhearditcoming.O’DonnellandO’Reillyjumpedintothisholeandbothwerekilled.You’dreckonitwasasnipergotthem.That’swhereitexploded.
02:00 Ifyourtime’sup,you’regone.Andthat’swhathappened.Theyweretwogoodfellastoo.Theybothcomefromthe8thBattalion.Iknewthemwhenwewereinthe8th.They–nofaultoftheirown–theywereinthewrongplaceatthewrong
02:30 time.PadreEarlhewasjustaslikelytospringabitofaparadeonyou.Ithinkitwastokeepyoutoknowthatyouwerestillaliveandthingslikethat.Hewasadecentsortofabloke.He’dtellayarn.HewasaCatholicpriest.Butthatmadenodifference.
03:00 Everybodyturnedupwhenhehadachurchparade.WhenwewereontheAthertonTablelandsIwastheorderlysergeantforthechurchparade.TheycallitRC[RockChoppers]churchparade–Catholicchurchparade.
03:30 IthinkthefirstparadeIhadImighthaveeight.ThenextSundayIhadhalfthebattalion.BecausetheRCswenteighto’clockandthentheywerefinishedfortheday.Buttheotherdenominationsneverstartedchurchparadeuntilhalfpasteleven.Soitsoonshowsyouhowyourcongregationcangrow
04:00 whenthere’ssomethingattachedtoit.Though,I’lltellyou,youneverheardanargumentonreligionoronpolitics.Inevereverheardanargument–speciallyonreligion.Didn’tmatterwhetheryouwerechurchofEnglandorAnglicanor
04:30 RCs–wewere‘RockChoppers’.AndnowwelllookatthetroublethereiswiththeAnglicanchurchnow.See,asIsay,yougoformoretimeandyoucomeintothis–everything’s
05:00 changing.Idon’tknowwhat’sgonewrongwiththeworld.Whetherwe’recomingtobeapackofheathensoratheists.You’dbesurprisedthepeopleyoutalktothatgotnofaithwhatsoever.Ithinkyougottobelievein
05:30 something.Itdon’tmatterwhatitis.AsIsaidwithLesSkinnerwhenheaskedmewasthereaGodandIsaid,“That’swhatwe’reledtobelieve.”WellIthinkthat’swhatweare,isn’tit?WeareledtobelievethatthereisaGod.Butit’sperformedinso
06:00 manydifferentwaysnowthatit’sgetting–youdon’tknowwhetherit’strueorwhetherit’snot.Withdifferentthingsthat’sgoingon–allthesedifferentreligionsspringingup.SomebelieveinGod,somedon’tbelieveinGodandsomebelieveinastatueorsomething.Ithink
06:30 thatwegottogetbacktobasics.
Okay.I’dliketojustgetbacktoIsharavaifIcan.Howlongwereyoufightingtherefor?
Forsevendays.Weheldthemforfourdaysthereandthentherewasthreedayswith–seewhenthe53rdbattaliontheyleftthescenedown
07:00 onourright.The16thbattaliongotcaughtinthebackwashwhereifthe53rdhadheldtheirposition,the16thprobablycouldhavedoneamanoeuvrethatwe’dhavechoppedtheirlines.Wecouldn’t
07:30 havebeatthem.Wehadto–weneverhadthetroopstodothemanoeuvring.Rightfromthefinish.Wecouldn’t.Weneverhadit.Theyhadatleastsixthousandtroopstobackthemup.Ourbestwaynow–ashistorywillrepeatitself–theonlythingwasto
08:00 withdrawandhold.Withdrawandhold.Weweren’tstrongenoughtoattack.Sothatwhathappened.Weheldthem.AndthetimeweheldthematIsharavawastheirdownfall.Itgivemoretimeforthatsuppliesandthatat
08:30 Myolatobuildupsuppliesandeverything.Butitalsowasablessingwhenwehadtopulloutandleavethestoresandthatbehindbecausetheyweredopedupandthat’swhat–sickness–gottheJaps.Whichifwe’dhaditourselfwewouldhavegotit.
09:00 Tothinkthatallthatcornedbeefwasthere.Andwherethatatinofcornedbeefitservedsixmenandmarkedonthetiniswhatyougot–twoouncesperman.Thatwasyourration.Ohandtwodogbiscuits.And
09:30 whenyouwouldcutinthat–ifyou’dhavepickedupacrumbIreckonyou’dhavegotyourfingersloppedoff.Iusedtoeatminestraightaway,thecornedbeef.IputthetwodogbiscuitsinmypocketandI’dgnawthemthroughthenight.Because–Idon’tknow–youweretired,butIneverslept.Istilldon’t.
10:00 Iwakeatthreeo’clockeverymorning.Idon’tgotosleepagain.Ithinkit’sjustsomethingthatintoyou.Itwasthesamewithwater.Ireckonthatwas–wegotawaterbottleevenwhenwewereatMoresbyandyouwentonaroutemarchandthathadtolastyouallday.
InthesevendaysthatyouwereholdingatIsharava,howmuchdidyousleepinthattime?
10:30 Verylittle.Atnighttimeifoneslepttheothershouldbeawake.WellIwasoftheopinionsomeofthemyoucouldn’ttrustthem.They’dgotosleepstandingup.SoIdozedoffandIputmehandouttoseeiftheotherbloke’sthereandhesays,“What’swrong?”Isaid,“It’sallright.
11:00 Justseeingthatyou’reokay.”SoIsupposemostofthemI’ddothat.Butyougettoknowwhetheryougotablokethatyoucanrelyonwithyou.
Yournervesmusthavebeenonedgethewholetime.
Theywere.Yeah.
11:30 It’smarvellous.Icouldhearamouserunningacrosstheroofonetimetillmyearsaregone.Ireckonthatwasall–youhadyourearstrainedfortheslightestnoise.I’vebeenonmyturntobeawakeandthatandI’vebeenbesideatree,someone’swanderedpastandI’dwaittillhegotjustpastmeandI’dsay,
12:00 “Juststopwhereyouare.Keepyourhandswheretheyare.”Itwassomeonegoingforaleak[urinate]orsomething.Thatwasnogoodshoutingout.Ifyoushoutedoutforhimtohaltitwasbettertolethimcometoyouandyougothim.Thatwouldbeoneoftheblokes.Someofthemusedtowander–talkintheirbloodysleep.
12:30 Wehadtwoonguardonenight.ThiswasinfrontofDeniki.Theyweretwobrothers.Andtheywereonguardandoneblokewantedtogotothetoilet.Sohewalkedoffintothejungleanddidwhathewasdoingandcomeback.Buthedidn’tcomebackwherehewalkedoff.Hecomeback
13:00 abitdifferent.Andtheotherone’ssingingout“Halt!Halt!Halt!”Andofcoursehesays,"Goshhe’sintrouble!”Andhestartsrunning,andboom!Heshothisbrother.Wellthatwasamanlost.Twomenlostbecausetheotheronewasnogood.Theyhadtosendhimout.Yeah.Thatwasn’tinmycompany.Itwasinoneoftheothercompanies.Butlittlethingslike
13:30 that.Thatwasonlyintheearlypart.Onceyou’vegottrainedyouwouldn’thavegone–you’dhavegonebackstraightonthattrackyouwentouton.Tocomebackonadifferentangleyou’reonlylookingfortrouble.Andwhenitgotdark,itgotdark.Youhadtoputyourhandout–feelwhether
14:00 yourmatewassittingbesideyouinahole.
Nowyouwerefightingandholdingandthenwithdrawing–holdandwithdrawforaboutsevendays?
That’sit.Yeahyouhadtodothat.Wewereinafixedposition.WetookupthispositionatIsharavabecauseitwasthemosttechnicalposition.Butitwasn’tbig
14:30 enoughforthetroopswehadtoholditallthetime.AndasIsaid,the53rdwasjustbadluckthattheyweren’tcapableofdoingthejobdownthere.Andthe16thgotpulledbecausetheywerecaughtinthebackwashofthe53rd.The27th,Idon’tknowwheretheywere.Theyhadn’treachedus.
15:00 The27thwastofollowupthe14thandthat.Buttheynevercaughtuptillwaybackalongthemountain.Andwhenwewereatholding,wedon’t
15:30 know,butthe–inthearchivestheysaidthatthey’drunintotroublewiththeirsuppliesorsomething.TheairforcewasgettingstrongeranditwasknockingouttherecomingacrossfromRabaulwiththeirsupplies.Andtheywerebuildingupsupplies.OneblokeintheJaps–oneoftheheads,thecolonelor
16:00 brigadierorwhateverhewas-herodeawhitehorse.Wellthemulescouldn’tgosotheyfoundthehorsedeadwhentheywentbackoverthemountains.Ithadsnuffedit.Orwasshotorsomething.Onawhitehorse!He’dhavebeenasittingduckifhe’dhavecomeupourway.Butinthis
16:30 holding,whilewewereholdingthemweweregivingallthewoundedachancetogetoutandtheothertroopstogetuptous.Sothat’swhentheysaid,“Whenthe14thcomesin,tohangon.The14thisontheirwayandyoushallgetrelieved.”Andthat’swhen
17:00 the14thcomein,weputthemintopositionsandtheygotintotroubleandtheysaidthatthe14thwasintroubleandtheysaid,“Whatdoyoureckon?We’regoingback.”Sothat’swhenwewentback.Andthat’swhythe14thholdusinhighesteem.Andweholdthem.
Whenyoucameback
17:30 didtheycallyou"Chockos"?
No.AndI’veneverheardanyofthemcallusthatsince.Ithinkwhywewerepulledfromtheorderofbattle,itwas–what’sthewordtouse–thattheywere–
18:00 BlameyandtheWarCabinetwereembarrassedatwhatwe’ddone.
Becauseyouweren’tAIF?
Yeah.Butwewerestillfleshandbloodthesameasthem.
18:30 See,evenwhenthe53rdrunamokthereshouldhavebeensomeonestillgoodenoughtofillthegap.WhatImean,ifithadbeenonlyacompanyorsomethingtheycouldhavegotwordacross.Theyhadrunnersandthat
19:00 backalongthetrackbecausewhentheygotback–becausewehadasignal.Signalswereout.Thesigshadwireouttousandthat,everything.Thereshouldhavebeensomebodythatwasgoodenoughtotakecharge.IfmyblokeshadstartedtorunIthinkI’dhave
19:30 putashotacrosstheirbowstowakeuptothemselves.See,there’ssomebodygottobeincharge.
Didyoueverseeorknowofanyblokeswhojustcouldn’ttakeitanymore?
Ohyes.Iknowoneortwo;theystraightenedthemout.Ifwehad
20:00 adoctorandhehadafewAspro[aspirin]orsomething,youcouldprobablypicksomeofthemblokes.Youknow,that’snerves,though.TheyreckontheyhadrumatKokoda.Theyhadsomethingbecausetherewasahellofasmellinthisdugout.Butthewrongblokeshadit.Itweretheonesthat
20:30 wereunderthehammer[pressure].Therewasalotoffunnythingsthatgoeson.WhenIdidtheschoolI’dsaytothem,“Nowwhatwouldwedoifthiswasjungle?”Ihadonebloketryto
21:00 explaintome–he’dreadabookorsomething.Butthemajoritywouldtellthem,“We’renotteachingthat.”Youhadtodofivetotenminutesatthemostonsomesubjectinthecourseatthe….Whatsername?
IsthisOTC[OfficerTrainingCorps]?
21:30 Yeah.SoIdiditonjunglewarfare.Theyhadtostopmeafteranhour.Eventheseoneswhatshouldhavebeenteachingitdidn’tleave.Theystayed.BecauseeverythingIwastellingthemwastotheiradvantage.Latertheytaughtit.Jungle
22:00 training.Butit’stoolatewhenyou’velostthefirstorsecondlotoftroopsthathavebeenunderit.Whichcouldsavemanylives.
Couldyoutellmealittlebitaboutthewithdrawal,whenyouactuallygottopullout?
22:30 Younotifythatyou’regoingtowithdraw.Therunnergoestothemandtellsthemyou’repullingoutinsay–I’lljustgoontheclock–"You’regoingatfouro’clock.Don’twastenotimeandyougetbackasquickasyoucan."
23:00 There’ssomeone’spositionalongthetrack.Youwaitthereandthen,right,I’mleftwithsayten,twentyblokesthat’sthereforthewithdrawalparty.Weholduntilwegivethemtimetogo.Saytheygobackthetrackfortwentyminutesandtakeupa
23:30 position.Theposition’sallbeenpickedoutforthemastheygetthere.Thenweleave.Weleaveinahurry.Ahellofahurry.Sometimesyoubreakandthere’snotashotfired.Whenthe14thwaswithdrawingatEobaCreekwewere
24:00 theholdingforce,whilethe14thwentthroughus.Toldthemnottowasteanytime,keepmoving.TheywentupintoEobaCreekandontotakeupanotherposition.AndsoonasthelastblokecomethroughIsaid,“Howmany’sbehindyou?”Hesaid,“I’mthelast.”Andhewasthesergeantandhecamethrough
24:30 andwegivehimsolongtoclearthatlog.Thenitwaseverymanforhimselfoncehepulledoutbecausetherewasonly,Ithink,nineorten,twelve,fifteenofusorsomethingthatwasholdingthetracktilltheycleared.
Andyouwerebeingfiredonthewholetime?
Nottillwegottothecrossingandtheyopenedfireonusthen.Probablythatwaswhentheywokeup
25:00 thatwe’dwithdrawn.Someofthemdroppedintothecreekandtheycouldn’tcrossthelog–Iknowthreeorfourblokeswithmewentoverthetopverysmart.Itwasspeedwasthemainthing.Onceyoubrokewasto
25:30 breakquick.Butifyouweregoingtodawdleandfiringshotsasyougo.Butwewereabitluckyintwowithdrawalsthatwegotgoing,werealmostclearedbeforetherewasashotfired.Whichwasgoodtiming.Andyouwasn’theldup–theothershadclearedwellaheadofyouorbehindyou.
26:00 SomecalledittheretreatfromKokoda.Butitwasn’taretreat,itwasawithdrawal.Aretreat,you’dhavestillbeengoing.Andasitworkedouteveryminuteyoucouldholdthemwasgivingtimefortroopstobuildupbehindus.TheyweregettingthemupbackfromtheMiddleEast.Theyhadthemin
26:30 differentstagingpointsinAustraliatogetthemacrosstoMoresbytomakeanassault.See,theytookMilneBay.WellwegottroopsupfromMilneBay.Ithinkthe3rdbattalioncamefromMilneBayupintothemountains.Butthatwaswhywedidn’thavetogobackinagain.Becausetheygotanotherbattalion
27:00 in.Buttherewasalotofchangingleaders;wasn’tgood.Youjustgetusedtoabrigadierthatwasorganisingyourworkout–asIsaid,Portercameuptoseewhatthetroopsweredoing.Blamey
27:30 neverevercomeup.TheytellmehewentuptoRonaFallsonceandhadalook.Butthatwasonlywherethehospitalwas.Theyhadagoodhospitalupthere.Somenightswhenwepulledoutweusedtowatchthemoperatingthroughthewindows.Marvelloussomeofthemdoctors,youknow.
28:00 Fairhospitals.
Didyouhavemuchmedicalassistanceoutonthefield?
No.Thedoctorwehadhadastethoscopeandapocketknife.Andheamputatedwithit.Hehadfielddressings,buttheyweren’tmuch
28:30 helptoyou–notforabigwound.KevinFiskgotshotintheguts.Rightacrosshisgutslikethat.Andallhisrunners[intestines]arehangingout.Hewasholdingthemlikethatandtheywasbulgingoutthroughhisfingers.Theyreckonthat’stheendofhim.That’swhattheyalltoldus–ifyougetairinyourgutthat’sit.Helivedfor15yearsafter.AYankeedoctorpushedthembackandsewedituplikeabagofchaff.
29:00 Somewheredownthetracktheywascominguptohavealook.Therewasquiteafewofthemalivebuteventheoldbloke–theolddoctor,Shearer,hewasdeaf.Theyknowwhatthey’reabout.Itdon’tmatterwhetherthey’redeafordumb,longastheycandothejob.
29:30 Buthalfthetroublewasweneverhadnosupplies.Theywereflatoutsendingammunitionuptoyouandatoneplace–wehadn’thadadrinkofteaandinthebottomofoneofthebags,sometuckertheybroughtup,wassometeaandsugarmixedup.Driedteaand
30:00 sugar.Sotheyscroungedaroundandtheygotatinandtheyjustputitontheboilandtheyjustdroppedtheteainitwhenthemountaingunstartedup.Thatwastheendofthetea.
Weweretalkingaboutyourwoundsandyouactuallygotwoundedyourself?
Yeah.Ineverreportedit.Christ,thatwasonlyascratchImeantowhattheycouldn’ttreat.
30:30 Itdidn’tbleedmuch.ButItellyouwhat,itburntlikehell.TheysaidIwasluckyitneverbrokemyshinbone.ButIthinkitwasmoreofaricochet.
Bullet…isn’tit?
No.Thebullethitmeanditwasflattenedaboutthatbig.SoIreckonthatitcameoffsomething
31:00 whenithitme.Butbyhellitwasredhot.Butit’sneverworriedme.
Thatwasit,aboutacoupleofcentimetreslong?
Yeah.It’dbeohasbigasmethumbnail,flatasifithadhitabrickwall.
31:30 Anditwasrightinyourshin?
Inmyshin.Ontheshinbone.Rightonthat–thoughitseemedtobeonthatmainbone.AtIsharavamymatenearlyshotme.Hisriflewasstandingupinthecornerofthisholewehadandhejumpedinthe
hole.
32:00 Bang!Itwentupthroughmeshirt,upthroughheresomewhereupinthetrees.Hisbayonethitthetriggerinhisrifleashejumpedinthehole.Onlywentthroughthehole,wasupthroughmyshirtbutnevertouchedme.
32:30 Whatdidyoudowiththebulletthatwasinyourshin?
Justleftitlikeitwas.
Youleftit?
Yeah.Whenwe’dstrippedoffhesaid,“What’swrongwithyourshin?”Isaid,“Ihadabulletinit.”Sotheygivemeanothertetanusshot.Itwas
33:00 clean.Wellitwaswetallthetimesoithadtobeclean.
Yougotthebulletoutthough?
Yeah.Ihaditinmepocketforalongtime.AndIdon’tknowwhatIdidwithit.ButitwasaJapbullet.That’swhyIreckonithitsomething.Itcouldhavehitarifleoranything.Becausethemricochetstheytravel..Ishotacatouthere.Iwasjust
33:30 outbythegateandthisgreatbigtomcat–heusedtocomeandhe’dbeallovertheplace.AndIfiredathim.Hithiminthehead.AndIheardsomethinghitasheetofironthatwasbehindthecat.SoIgooverandhavealook.Ithadgonethroughthecat,throughthesheetofironandintothewaterpipethattakesthewatertothehotwaterservice.
34:00 Yeah.Threekillsinone.Andthathappenedalotwithricochetsinwartime.Justhitsonthebarrelofarifleoramachinegunorsomething.
Canyoutellmealittlebitmoreaboutthewithdrawal?Howlongdidittakeyoutogetbackdown?
34:30 What?Outofthemountains–wellIjustdon’tknow.See,wegotpulledoutoncethisotherbattalioncameinandthe27thwherevertheywerejoinedup,wewererelieved.Theyreinforcedthe14th.Andsowecamebackto
35:00 RonaFalls.Andthat’swhenIgotsentdownto–sixweekswewereinthemountains.Anditonlyseemedlikeonlyaweeksinceithappened,like,the
35:30 time–youneverhadtimetothinkoftime.Eitherforittogetdarkquickor–youcouldnearlysetyourwatchonthetimeofdaybytherain.Youknewtherainwasgoingtocomeaboutfouro’clock.Anditcame.
Whataboutanimals?Didyouseeanyanimalsatall?
36:00 Goingupweseenpigs.Weshotapig.Oneoftheblokesshotapig.AnditcostusoohIdon’tknowhowmanytinsofcornedbeeftopayforthepig.
Why’sthat?
Itwasoneofthevillager’spigs.Apigwasapigthere.
36:30 Youhadtogoandpayforit?
Yeah.Welltheyneverhadmoneysotheywentaroundeachoneandgotoutoftheirrations.
CanIaskyou,didyoueverencounteranyexamplesofdesertion?
No.Oneofthecompanieswhowereshootingthroughbutthey
37:00 gotstoppedwithoneoftheothercompaniescomingup.Itwasintheearlydays.Andtheybroughtthembackandtheyfinishedupjollygoodsoldiers.Thatwasyoumightaswellsayfear.Theyjustflickedatthemoment.Andwhensomeonegotontothemandexplainedtothemtheywere
37:30 desertingtheirmates–whichtheyweredoing–andthatstraightenedthemout.WhentheybombedMoresbywehadablokewentbombhappythere.Onlyreasonwas,theyreckonedhehadabeautifulwife.Theyreckonedshewasarealcrackerofasort.AndheworriedhimselfthatwaythattheYanks
38:00 beafterher.Wenevereverseenhimagain.Hewasproperly'bombhappy'.
Hetookoff?
No.Hewasnogoodtoanybody.Couldn’tfeedhimselfornothing.Sotheysenthimmedicallyoff.Probablygetamedicaldischarge.Nevereverheardofhimagain.Whetherhejumpedoverboardornot…..…
38:30 WhataboutsomeofthenewblokescominguptoNewGuinea?Anyofthemturntailbeforetheygotthere?
OnlywhenItookthesefourblokesoutofeleven,theyturnedoutprettydecentsoldiers.Twoofthemcometoourcompanyandtheywereallright.
39:00 Clearedoffthough,butthatwasthebestthingthatcouldhavehappened.Theywerenogoodtoyou.Youwouldn’thavebeenabletotrustthemblokes.They’dhaveshotthrough.You’dreckontheywerecoveringapointbehindyouandthey’regone.
Sotheydidleave?Theydeserted?
Yeah.Ineverseenheardofthembefore.TheywereinAustralia.ButwhenIwenttotheOTCatBathursttherewasalot
39:30 ofthosethere.Theydidn’twanttoknow.IbuiltlikeaCanungrathere,bayonetcourseandoverwaterswingingovercanyonsandthingslikethat,andanyofthembackansweredmeIputthemthroughitagain.I’dgowiththem.
40:00 Itellyou,Iwasfit.AndIthinkthat’swhyIplayedgoodfootball.AndIthinkthat’swhyI’velivedsolongnow.Everymorningfor25yearsIwalkedfourgreyhoundsforfivemileeverymorning.Ireckonitallhelped.Musthavedidsomething.
Allright,wemightleaveitthere.
INTERVIEWENDS
