commission of inquiry into state capture held at parktown ...

C O M M IS S IO N O F IN Q U IRY IN TO STAT E C A PT U R E

H EL D AT

PA R K TO W N , J O HA N N ESB U R G

10

04 J UN E 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 05

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PR O C EED IN G S O N 4 J UN E 2 0 19

C HA IR PER SO N : G o o d m o rn i ng M s Nor m a n , g oo d m or n in g ev ery bo dy.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : G o od m o rn in g M r C h a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : A re yo u r ea dy ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s w e a r e r ea dy t h an k yo u .

C HA IR PER SO N : T h a nk y o u .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th a nk yo u . M r C ha i r m a n

m a yb e ju s t b e fo re w e p r oc ee d w i t h t he w i t ne ss w e ha ve j us t p l ac ed

an o the r p re se n ta t i on f i l e b e fo r e yo u w h ic h i s Exh i b i t C C1 [e ] . We w i l l

de a l w i th i t l a te r b u t th is i s th e a f f i d av i t o f M r W i l l i a m s w h ic h w as 10

su b m i t t e d y es te rd ay. No w i t ha s b e en p r o pe r ly p ag in a ted .

C HA IR PER SO N : O h y es .

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : I t ha s be e n p l ac ed b e fo re yo u .

Ye s .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s t ha nk yo u .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th an k y ou .


A D V T H A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T ha nk y o u . M a y M r Su n d ara m

be r e m i nd e d th a t h e i s s t i l l un d er o a th?

C HA IR PER SO N : We l l w e h av e no t be e n re m i nd i ng … 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : An yo ne o h .

C HA IR PER SO N : T h e m b u t he k no ws t h a t he h as t ak e n an o a th to g iv e

h is e v i de nc e t r u th fu l l y a nd h on es t ly a n d th a t ap p l i es un t i l h e h as

f i n i sh e d h is ev id e nc e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s .

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M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s t ha nk yo u .


C HA IR PER SO N : Be fo r e y ou s ta r t M s N or m a n .


C HA IR PER SO N : I j us t w an t t o – y es te r da y I r e fe r re d t o p a r t o f th e

ev i d e nc e t h a t w as g iv e n b y Mr T h e m b a M a sek o .


C HA IR PER SO N : Be fo r e t h is co m m i ss i on wh e n I n o ted M r Su nd ar a m ’s

ev i d e nc e i n h is s t a te m e n t [e xc us e m e ] w h ic h w as to t he e f f ec t th a t I 10

t h i nk M r A tu l G u p ta s a i d t ha t h e c o u l d g e t a ny n a t i o na l o r p r ov in c i a l

m i n is t e r t o co m e to th e b re ak fas t…

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th e b r e ak fas t b r i e f i ng .

C HA IR PER SO N : B r i e f i n gs .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th a t i s c o r r ec t y es .

C HA IR PER SO N : T h a t t he y he ld . I s a id I s e e m to r e m e m b er th a t M r

T he m b a M as ek o g av e ev i d e nc e to th e e f f e c t t h a t i n h is m e e t i n g w i t h M r

A j ay Gu p ta M r A j ay G u p ta t o l d h i m th a t he o r th ey t ha t i s t h e G u p ta

f a m i ly c o u l d g e t an y m i n i s te r t o o r c ou ld c a l l a ny m i n is te r – I j us t w a n t

t o – I t h in k I d i d f i n d t h e … 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th e re fe r e nc e?

C HA IR PER SO N : T h e re fe r en ce a n d I ju s t w an t t o – t o re a d i t s o t ha t I

do n o t m i s re pr es e n t .


C HA IR PER SO N : Wh a t M r T he m b a M as ek o s a id . I t i s a t p a r ag ra p h 2 8

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o f h is s t a te m e n t w h ic h is a t Ex h i b i t E1 .


C HA IR PER SO N : Pa ra gr a ph – p a g e 1 8 o f Ex h i b i t E1 be fo r e th is

co m m i ss io n . Be fo re pa ra gr a ph 28 M r M a sek o d e a ls w i t h t h e f ac t t h a t

he ex p la i ne d t o Mr A j ay G u p ta h ow th i n gs wo rk ed i n r eg ar d to

ad ve r t i s e m e n t f ro m th e go ve rn m e n t s id e . T h en h e s ays a t p a r a gr ap h

27 a nd 2 8 :

“H e d i s m iss e d by ex p la n a t i on an d p r oc e e de d t o t e l l

m e t ha t m y jo b is to g o an d i d e n t i fy, c o l le c t a n d

a l lo ca te a l l th e c o m m u n i ca t io n b u d ge t a m o un ts in th e 10

var io us d ep ar tm e n ts to h i s c o m p an y. ”

Par a gr ap h 28 t ha t wa s 2 7 : Pa ra gr a ph 2 8 h e s ays :

“H e , t h a t i s M r A ja y G up ta t he n t o l d m e t h a t I s h ou ld

le t h i m k n o w i f a ny d e pa r tm en t o r m in is t e r g iv es m e

an y p r ob l e ms an d h e w ou l d de a l w i t h t he m d i re c t ly. I

ask e d h i m to e l a bor a te a n d h e t o l d m e t ha t h e w i l l

pe rs on a l ly su m m o n a n d d e a l w i t h a ny m i n is t e r w h o

do es n o t co o pe ra te i n th is r eg ar d . ”

T he n he sa ys :

“ I t h en o b j ec te d to t h e w ay he w as t a l k in g a b ou t 20

m i n is te rs i n s uc h de ro g a to ry te r ms . H e s e e m ed

ob l i v i o us t o t h e p o i n t I wa s m a k i n g a nd e m p h as i se d

t ha t h e c o u l d de a l w i th a ny m i n is te r wh o d i d no t co -

op er a te . ”


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C HA IR PER SO N : So t he p ar t t h a t I wa s i n te r es te d i n i s t he on e wh er e

M r M as ek o s a i d M r A j ay G u p ta s a id h e c ou l d p e rs o na l l y s u m m o n an d

de a l w i t h an y m in is t e r.


C HA IR PER SO N : W h o d i d n o t c o -o p er a te .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th an k y ou M r C h a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : O ka y. I j us t w an te d t o m ak e s u re I a m no t…

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s t o p la ce i t o n r ec ord .

C HA IR PER SO N : M i s re pr es e n t i ng w ha t M r M a se ko s a id .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s t ha nk yo u . 10

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s t ha nk s y ou m a y p r oc ee d .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T h an k y o u M r Ch a i r m a n . T h an k

yo u . M r Su nd ar a m w i l l y o u p l ea se t u r n – l oo k a t Exh i b i t C C 1 [a ] an d [ b ] .


A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: We g o b ac k t o yo ur m a in

s ta te m e n t ag a in .


A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A t t h e p ar t – y o u h av e c ov er e d

a l l o f t h e ev id e nc e t ha t i s i n pa ra gr a ph s 1 r i g h t u p t o 1 7 an d t h i s

m or n in g we – I w o u l d l i k e to re fe r y o u t o pa ra gr a ph 1 8 w h er e y ou d ea l 20

wi th t h e SABC ar ch iv e d e a l .


A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . C ou l d y o u ju s t te l l t h e

Ch a i r pe r so n wh a t wa s yo ur u nd ers ta nd i ng o f t h i s d e a l ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: U m .

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C HA IR PER SO N : I a m s or r y y ou r e fe r r ed t o p a r a gra p h 1 8 ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Pa ra gra p h 1 8 , 1 8 .

C HA IR PER SO N : O f h i s s ta te m e n t?

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: O f h is – y es o f h i s m a in

s ta te m e n t .

C HA IR PER SO N : O h ok ay.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : I t i s g o t a s ub - h e ad in g .

C HA IR PER SO N : T h a nk y o u . J a I f o u nd i t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yo u f o un d i t . Ok ay t ha nk yo u . 10

M R RA J ESH SU N D A RA M : C ha i r m a n s o t h is wa s a d e a l th a t I g o t t o

kn ow o f w he n I wa s i n I nd i a a nd Mr La x m i Go e l s a id th a t t h ey h a d a

ve r y sw e e t d ea l f o r a rc h i ve s b ec au se t ha t w as o ne o f m y wor r i es wh e n

yo u se t u p a s ta t i o n yo u n e ed a rc h i ve s t o s t a r t w i th o th e r w is e y ou k n o w

es pe c i a l l y w h en yo u a r e – wh e n y o u ha ve a n [ i n d is t in c t ] w h er e y ou

ha ve r i v a l s w h o e x is t e d f o r m a ny y e ars . So t he y h ad a v e ry r ev er se d

a rc h i ve . So t ha t w as on e o f m y w or r i es . So w ha t Mr La x m i G o e l s a i d

wa s th a t th e G up ta b r o th e rs a nd M r Na z ee m H o w a h av e ha d a v e ry

sw ee t de a l w i t h t he SABC w h ere ab o u t 1 00 ho ur s o f f oo ta ge wo u l d b e

g iv e n a t th ro w a w ay p r ic es . W h at h e d esc r ib e d as p ea n u ts t h a t w e g e t 20

t ha t a t p e an u ts a n d h e s a i d o n e o f m y i m m e d i a te p r i o r i t i es w o u l d b e t o

h i r e an a r ch iv i s t a p r o fe ss i o n a l a rc h i v is t wh o c o u l d ta ke t h a t f o o ta g e

wh ic h w as o n an a l o g ue w i th SA BC a n d c o nv er t i t i n to a d ig i ta l f o r m a t .

An d h e s a i d th a t s ho u l d be d on e a s s oo n po ss i b le y o u k no w w i t h t h e –

t ha t N az ee m w o u l d ha ve t h e e d i t o r ia l te a m f r o m th e T N A s a t do w n a n d

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m a ke a l i s t o f a l l th e a r ch iv e h i s t o r ic a l va l u e t ha t i s r eq u i re d . A l so

co n te m p or a r y fo o tag e – f o o ta g e fo r i ns ta n ce o f t he M a r ik an a i nc i d en t o f

rec e n t n ew s m ak ers l i k e J u l iu s M a l e m a fo r i ns ta nc e a n d a l l o f t h a t l i s t

wa s c r e a te d by M r N az e e m H o wa w i t h t h e ed i to r i a l s ta f f a t t he T N A .

An d th is w as g i ve n o u t t o a pe rs on ca l l ed R a hu l S i ng h . No w R ah u l

S i ng h w as a n a r ch iv is t w ho h a s m a ny y e ars o f e xp er ie nc e h a d c o m e

f r o m Ind i a . H e i s c u r r en t ly th e C h i e f A rc h i v is t a t t h e I n d i a To d ay Gr o u p

wh ic h is o n e o f th e l a r ge s t te l ev i s i on ne tw ork s . So h e w as a sk ed t o g o

w i t h w ha t a re k n ow n a s m i n i D V ta p es b e ca us e t h e – a nd go to SABC

ov er a p e r i o d o f ab o u t a m o n th a nd r ec or d f o r a b ou t e i g h t h ou rs fo o tag e 10

t ha t w as th e r e an d ge t t ha t b ack t o th e o f f i ce . O ve r t h e we ek e nd s h e

wo u ld d ig i t i se i t w h ic h is b as ic a l l y t ak i n g i t f r o m ta p e a nd p u t t i n g i t o n

a s e rv e r so t h a t i t c o u l d be us e d fo r b r o a dc as t . No w th is w as a l i t t l e

su r p r is i n g fo r m e b ec a us e th e SABC wa s s e t to la u nc h i ts o w n

t e l ev i s i o n s ta t i on a n d we w er e po te n t i a l l y a r i v a l f o r t ha t s ta t io n . F or

t he m to a t t h a t po in t ta ke a po l i cy d ec is i on to g iv e a hu g e s u p p ly o f

oxy g en to a po te n t i a l r i va l t h r ou g h t h i s a r ch i va l f o o ta g e w as so m e th in g

t ha t c a m e to m e as – y ou kn o w I w a s v e ry p uzz le d ab o u t w hy t h ey

wo u ld d o i t . A l so I wa s t o l d by N az e e m i n d isc us s i on s y o u kn o w s o h e

wo u ld b oa s t a b ou t i t t h a t yo u k n ow th i s i s a d ea l th a t he g o t d on e 20

t h ro u g h h is i n f l u en ce th a t t h ey d id n o t h av e t o p ay a l o t o f b r i b es i t wa s

do n e o h we l l t ak i n g p e op l e o u t f o r a m e a l o r bu y i ng t h e m dr i nk s .

Bec a us e j us t t h e na m e o f t h e G up ta ’s t h a t th ey a r e b eh in d i t a n d t he

f ac t th a t th e w ho le w or ld kn e w th a t th e y h ad t h e b l ess in gs a n d t h e

ba ck i n g o f t he P r es id e n t wo u l d m a k e th i ng s v e ry e asy f o r t h e m . So h e

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wa s ve ry e xc i t e d a bo u t t h e f ac t t h a t h e h ad go t s uc h a b r i l l i a n t d e a l .

W h at wa s a l so m a k i ng – y o u kn o w w h en we ha d c on ve rs a t i on s in th e

ex ec u t iv e c o m m i t te e o r o th e r w i se w as th e f ac t t h a t h e s a i d t h ey a re s o

s tu p i d th a t th ey h av e g iv en us a de a l w h er e – w h i ch in vo lv es two p ar ts .

O n e w as t he ac tu a l pu rc ha se a t a p r ic e b u t a ls o e ver y t i m e t ha t AN N 7

us ed th a t f o o ta g e t he re wa s s o m e r oy a l t i es t o b e p a i d t o SABC . Bu t

t he y d id t ha t w i t h ou t ha v i n g a n e f f ec t iv e sys te m i n p l ac e w h ic h co u ld

m o n i t o r ho w m a ny se co n ds o r m in u tes o f t he f oo ta ge w as be i ng us e d .

So h is as ser t io n a t t h a t t i m e w as th a t t he y a re s tu p id b ec a us e t he y do

no t h av e t h a t m o n i t o r i n g s ys te m a n d i t i s en t i r e ly u p us . We m a y h av e 10

us ed s ay on e ho ur fo o tag e o ver a m o n th b u t w e w i l l y o u k no w d isc l os e

t ha t w e us ed a b ou t a m i n u te a n d p ay f o r a m i nu te a nd g e t aw ay w i th

t he – o r ev e n sa y t ha t we d i d n o t us e a n y th i n g . T her e i s no wa y t ha t

t he SABC c o u l d t he n k n o w w h a t i t wa s . Yo u k n o w h o w m uc h fo o tag e

wa s us e d . So – s o – s o o ve r a p e r io d o f t i m e t h is i s h o w i t h ap p e ne d

yo u k n ow. So R a hu l wo u l d g o ov er w i t h a b un ch o f t ap es e ver y da y to

t he SABC o f f i ce . T h er e wo u l d b e a n ed i t s ys te m th a t w o u l d be g iv en t o

h i m to co py t he fo o tag e . Th e fo o ta g e w as t he n v e ry n e a t ly s i nc e h e is a

p r o fes s i o na l a rc h iv is t h e wo u ld m e ta ta g t he w ho le t h i n g . H e w o u l d

ca teg or is e i t un d er v a r io us yo u k n ow p o l i t i ca l , s po r ts , h is t o r i c a r c h iv es 20

an d k ee p i t t he r e a n d a l so w h a t he w i l l t e l l m e i s t ha t t h e f o o ta ge th a t –

t ha t t h e AN N 7 h ad a f t e r i t w as a cq u i re d f r o m SABC w as m u c h b e t t e r

o r ga n i se d a n d d i g i t i s ed . So i t wa s m uc h f as te r f o r us t o u se i t i n te r ms

o f b r ea k i n g n ew s o r p u l l o u t t h e f o o ta g e an d p u t i t o n a i r – th a n ev e n

SABC a t th a t t i m e b ec a us e t h e SABC a r ch i ve s w er e s t i l l o n t a pe . I t

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wa s no t o n s e rv e r l i ke w h a t AN N 7 wa s do in g f r o m d ay 1 So – s o t h e

de a l o f s uc h a n a tu r e i n m y u nd ers ta nd i ng I h av e b ee n a t e l ev is io n

p r o fes s i o na l n ow fo r 26 y e ars a n d I ca n t e l l yo u is th a t i f y o u b uy

f oo tag e i t i s s o l d b y t h e se co n d a n d a r ch i va l f oo ta ge is m uc h h i gh er i n

va l u e th a n c on te m p or a ry f oo ta ge . A ls o co n te m p or a r y f o o ta g e w h i ch

ha s g o t ve r y h ig h n e ws v a l u e f o r i ns tan c e i f i t i s th e a ss on a t i o n o f a

he a d o f s t a te w h ic h h as b ee n c a u gh t o n ta pe is m u c h h i gh er v a l ue t h an

– th a n f oo tag e o f ju s t s ay a f ew b u i l d i ng s y o u k n o w th e p ar l ia m e n t o r

o th e rs . So wh a t s u r p r i se d m e i n t h is d e a l t ha t t he r e wa s o n e a bu lk

ra te t h a t wa s g iv e n an d t h i s r a te w as f o r a rc h iv a l f oo ta ge f o r f o o ta g e 10

t ha t w as c o n te m p or a ry. F o r f oo ta ge th a t w as b u i l d i n gs ac ro ss t h e

na t io n w h ic h I fo u nd w as v e r y f u nn y. I n m y as se ss m e n t f o o ta g e o f t h is

na tu r e w h i ch i s 1 00 ho ur s w ou ld c os t i n t h e m i l l io ns o f do l l a r s a nd wh a t

t he y – w h a t t h ey g o t – t h e r a te a t wh ic h th ey g o t i t w as s o m e th i n g

wh ic h wa s a t h r ow a w ay p r i ce w h ic h w as s o m e th i ng w h i ch w as do n e a s

a f av ou r an d i n m y u nd er s ta n d i ng an d m y c on ve rs a t i on s w i t h N az ee m

an d t he G u p ta b r o th e r s i t wa s d o ne b ec au se t he o f f i c i a l s a t SABC k n ew

tha t th e G up ta b r o the r s w er e c l os e t o Pr e s id e n t Z u m a an d th ey d i d n o t

wa n t t o co m e i n t h e w ay o f a ny th i ng o r d id no t w a n t to fa ce a ny

co ns eq u e nc es o f s h o w i ng a ny r es i s ta nc e . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . So a t t he t i m e w h e n R a hu l

wa s v i s i t i n g th e SABC y ou w er e a l re a dy w i t h i n t h e c ou n t ry, a m I r i g h t?


A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes an d y o u s ay t h a t yo u h ad

w i t ne ss ed h i m g o in g to t h e SA BC fo r a b o u t a m o n th ?

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A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Wo u l d h e c o m e – w o u l d h e

le av e yo ur o f f i c es i n t h e m o r n i ng an d c o m e b ack in th e a f t e r no o ns

ev ery da y o r h ow – o r h o w d o y o u a r r i v e a t a m o n th ?

M R R A J ESH SU N D A RA M : Yo u s e e a s fa r as I re m e m b e r we – i t w as

ab o u t s ix y e ars a g o h e w o u l d g o i n t h e m o rn i n g a nd h e w ou ld be a t t he

SABC o f f i ce t h e wh o l e d ay a nd h e wo u l d c o m e b ack i n th e ev e n i ng .

An d ov er t he we ek e nd s a l l th e fo o ta g e t h a t h a d co l l ec ted h e w ou l d t he n

d i g i t i s e t h a t w h i ch is b as ic a l l y ta ke i t f r o m ta pe on to th e s e rv e r wh ic h

co u l d b e us ed f o r b ro a dc as t . 10


M R RA J ESH SU N D AR A M : So – an d a t t he en d o f th e d ay he w i l l te l l

m e h o w m a ny h ou rs h ad a l r ea dy b e en c o l le c te d a nd i t i s m y

un d ers ta nd in g a nd I h a ve c on f i r m e d th is w i t h h i m a s w e l l b e fo r e I ca m e

he re i s t ha t h e g o t ab o u t 1 00 h o urs o f fo o tag e f r o m the SABC arc h iv es

du r i ng h i s – d u r i n g t h i s t i m e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . T he n ex t w i tn es s t h a t i s

go i ng to t es t i fy i s M r Sc o t t w ho w as t h e sa le s ex ec u t i ve w i t h i n t h e

SABC . H e i s g o i n g t o be t a lk i ng t o t h is i s s ue .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: H m . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Bu t i s t es t i m o n y is th a t o n ly

20 0 0 m in u tes w as so ld .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: H m .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: No t 1 0 0 h ou rs . W ha t i s y o ur

co m m e n t t o t h a t?

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M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M : Pe rh a ps 20 0 0 m in u tes w a s so l d b u t 1 0 0

ho ur s w as g i ve n . 1 0 0 h ou rs wa s w h a t AN N 7 g o t .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h i s i s s o m e th in g th a t I kn o w w h ic h I

re m e m b er ab so l u te ly.


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h ey c ou ld h a ve s o l d 2 0 0 0 m i n u te s m a y be

t ha t i s t h e c on t r ac t t ha t th ey h ad I wo u l d no t k n ow tha t bu t w ha t wa s

rec e i ve d i n t he a rc h iv es o f AN N 7 w h ic h is – w h i ch w as on t h e i r se r ve r

wa s ab o u t 1 0 0 h o urs . An d th is – I a m i s t he re is f o r en s ic i nv es t i g a t i on 10

i n t o t h i s – i n t o th e s e rv e rs a t t he AN N 7 I a m su re y o u k n o w the t r u th

wo u ld c o m e o u t o n t h is .

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . So i f y ou t a lk i n g 10 0

ho ur s yo u t a lk in g 60 0 0 m in u tes ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h a t i s c o r r ec t .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: So – a nd y o u a r e c e r t a i n t h a t

t ha t i s w h a t w as r ec e i ve d by AN N 7 ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h a t i s c o r r ec t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s a nd …

M R R A J ESH SU N D A RA M : Be ca us e I w as ge t t in g t he f i gu r es e ver y da y 20

an d t h e re w as a t a l l y t h a t wa s do n e t o war ds t h e e nd . I t w as

ap pr ox i m a te ly 10 0 ho ur s . I t w as c l os e t o 1 0 0 h o urs bu t de f in i te ly –

de f in i te ly m or e th a n 2 0 0 0 m i n u te s as is be i ng su g ge s te d .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I t w as c l os e t o 10 0 ho ur s .

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A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . I f y o u sa y y o u w ere

lo g g i ng i t d a i l y we re y ou l og g in g i t – h ow w er e yo u m o n i t o r in g t h e

rec e i p t o f t he se ?

M R RA J ESH SU N D AR A M : N o I wo u ld a sk R a hu l . Bec au se wh a t R a hu l

d i d w as h e o n a n exc e l sh e e t h e w o u l d m a ke a d e ta i l o f t h e f o o ta g e .


M R R A J ESH SU N D A RA M : A b r i e f d es c r i p t i on o f t he f o o ta g e . T h e

nu m b er o f m i n u tes t h a t th a t f oo tag e w as a nd h e wo u ld s i g n o f f o n t ha t .

So t h e r e w as – t h e r e w er e p r op er r ec ord s t h a t we re m a in ta i n ed o f th is

on a n exc e l sh e e t a n d I w a s s ho w n th os e e xc e l sh e e ts by h i m o n h i s 10

l a p to p a t t h e e nd o f th e d ay a n d t ha t i s h o w I kn e w h ow m uc h w as

co m i ng i n . An d I r e m e m b er v e ry c o r r ec t ly, ve r y d i s t i nc t l y t h a t i t wa s

ab o u t 10 0 h ou rs by t h e t i m e h e h ad f i n is h e d w i t h go in g t o SABC ,

co m i ng b ack w i t h th e fo o tag e .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes . We re y ou i nv o l ve d a t a l l

in t he p ay m e n ts t h a t w er e m a d e b y AN N 7 to SA BC i n r e l a t i on t o t h is

de a l?

M R R A J ESH SU N D AR A M : I w as n o t p a r t o f a ny co m m e r c i a l d ea ls a t

a l l a t AN N7 .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . 20

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M : My p os i t io n wa s m os t ly e d i t o r i a l an d y o u

kn ow in t e r m s o f t he w ork f l o w a n d t h e l au nc h .

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . We re y o u a w ar e o f a ny

m o n i es th a t w er e pa i d t ow ar ds c op y r ig h ts t h a t i s t he u sa g e o f t he

f oo tag e by th e AN N7 to t h e SABC

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M R R A J ESH SU N D A R A M: I l e f t t oo e ar ly. I w as t o ld t h a t a p a r t o f t h e

co n t ra c t w as t ha t w ha tev er fo o tag e AN N7 us es on a m o nth ly ba s is t he y

we re s up p os ed t o p ay pe r s ec o nd so m e r o ya l t y to SA BC . Bu t AN N 7 h ad

co nn e d SABC i n to g iv i n g t he m a c o n t ra c t wh ic h sa id t h a t t he r e w as n o

– t h a t t h e AN N 7 wo u l d s e l f -d ec la re h ow m a ny s ec o nd s w er e us ed o f

SABC fo o ta g e a n d I c a n t e l l yo u fo r a f a c t th a t t h e r e w as n o wa y t o

m o n i t o r th is e i t h e r a t AN N7 o r a t SA BC . So SABC w o u l d ha ve h ad t o

go ov er t he d ec la r a t i o n th a t AN N7 g o t an d f r o m d ay 1 y ou kn o w I

un d ers ta nd f r o m m y co nv ers a t i o ns w i t h Na ze e m H o w a th e r e w as a n

in ten t io n o n th e p ar t o f ANN 7 to g i ve a f ig u r e th a t w as m u ch l ow er t h an 10

wh a t wa s b e in g us ed . T h a t t h ey t ho u gh t w as th e s w e e t p a r t o f t he d e a l

t ha t th ey m a d e w i t h SA BC .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N OR M A N SC: Ye s . N ow l e t us j us t t a lk a bo u t

t he m o n i t o r i n g a f te r us a ge . Yo u q u i t e co r rec t t h e e v i de nc e o f M r Sc o t t

i s g o i n g t o b e t ha t h e w o u l d i nv i t e t h e m to d ec la re an d t h en t he y w ou ld

say to h i m fo r t h e m o n th o f Apr i l w e u se d se ve n m i n u te s a nd th e n h e

wo u ld s ay s ev e n m i nu tes t i m es R 20 0 0 wh i ch is w ha t t h ey we re c har g in g

t he m fo r c op y r i g h t . So l e t u s j us t de a l w i t h th e m o n i t o r in g p r oc ess . Is

i t i n t e r n a t i on a l – i s t he re a n i n te rn a t i o n a l wa y o f m o n i to r i ng us a g e a n d

p r o tec t in g t he a rc h i va l c on te n t o f a b r o ad c as te r? 20

M R R A J ESH SU N D A R A M: We l l m o s t p e op l e wh o a r e w or r i e d ab o u t

t he i r co py r i gh t s an d a ls o h av e c o m m e rc ia l i n t e r es t s l i k e t h i s h av e t he i r

ow n m o n i to r i ng d e pa r tm e n ts . F o r i ns ta nc e i f I h av e d on e a d ea l w i t h

AN N 7 m y m o n i t o r in g de p ar tm e n t a t SABC sh ou l d ac tu a l l y b e l o ok in g a t

ev ery s ec o nd o f f oo ta ge on a 2 4 h our ba s is a nd th e n b i l l i ng t he m

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acc or d i n g t o t h a t . R a th er t h a n w a i t i n g f o r t he c l i en t to d is c l os e a nd te l l

m e wh ic h co u ld an y w ays be d i sp u ted y o u k no w. T h ey c ou l d b e u nd er

inv o ic i n g . T he y c ou ld b e d o in g a w h o l e l o t o f o th e r t h i ng s . T h e be s t

p r oc ess i n t h i s w ou l d b e t o h av e a m o n i t o r in g d e par tm e n t w h ic h

m o n i t o rs o n a 2 4 ho ur b as is o r l i k e wh a t U - tub e d o es n ow a da ys yo u

kn ow s o yo u by p ass h u m a n i n te r ve n t i on a l to g e th er a n d h av e

a l g o r i t h m s ’ th a t co u l d – w h i ch k no w th e e l ec t r o n ic f o o tp r i n t o f t h e

f oo tag e a u d i o v i d eo th a t yo u h av e a nd m a tch i t a ga i ns t a b r o ad ca s t an d

g iv e y o u t h e e xa c t n u m b er o f se co n ds fo r w h ic h th is ha s b e en us e d .

T he re a r e v a r io us w ays i n wh ic h th e us e o f f o o ta g e c a n b e – o r u se o f 10

co py r ig h ted f oo ta ge c a n b e m o n i to re d w h i ch a re us ed by b ro a dc as te rs

ev ery w he re . An d I t h i nk i t w as a v e ry – y ou kn o w I w o u l d th in k a t b es t

i t w o u l d be a v e ry in n oc e n t m i s ta ke o n t he p ar t o f SABC to a g re e t o

suc h a d e a l w he re w i t h ou t m o n i t o r in g y o u a re as k i ng t h e Gu p ta

b r o th e rs t o d i sc l os e on t h e i r o w n h o w m u c h fo o tag e t he y u se d b ec au se

yo u k no w th a t wa s n o t a c o m m e rc ia l l y w is e de c is i on .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . A r e yo u a w are o f

so m e th i n g t h a t i s ca l l e d th e ba n t i n c o d e as t o h o w th a t wor ks ? An d

wh e the r w h en yo u w er e h er e i n So u th A f r i c a n w h e th er a ny o f t h e

b r oa dc as te rs th a t yo u ev er d e a l t w i th u s e d t ha t i f t h e r e wa s a n a rc h i ve 20

or c on te n t t h a t t h ey w a n te d to se l l t o AN N 7 ?

M R R A J ESH SU ND A R A M: T h e o n ly b ro a d cas te r w h o I k n o w wa n ted t o

se l l a rc h iv a l f o o ta g e t o AN N7 w as SABC .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: An d I a m n o t a wa re o f t h is c od e .

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A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : O f t he co d e y es . So t he

c r i t i c is m th a t yo u l ev e l a t t he m is th a t t h e y ac tu a l l y a l lo w e d t he us er t o

de te r m i ne h o w m u ch i t sh o u l d pa y f o r be ca us e i n es se nc e i f t he u ser

do es no t d isc l os e t ha t I us ed 40 m i nu te s o f y o ur f oo ta ge an d I w i l l

s i m p l y de c i de a s a u ser i f I a m a de v i o us u ser t h a t I us e d on ly f i v e . An d

as t h e SABC y o u h av e ab so lu te l y no w ay o f m o n i t o r i n g w he the r i n f ac t

t he y us e d f o r t y o r f i ve ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: J a a bs o lu te l y I m e a n th a t i s n o t t h e w ay

co m m e rc ia l d e a l s a r e do n e . Yo u h av e to h av e yo u k n ow in to th e

co n t ra c t y ou h av e t o [ i n d is t in c t ] ac co u n ta b i l i t y. Yo u h av e to [ in d is t i nc t ] 10

a fa c t t h a t th e r e i s n o sc op e f o r y o u k no w fo r wa n t o f a ny o the r w or d a

m is u nd er s ta n d i ng o r a m is r ea d in g o f f ig u r es be tw ee n tw o pa r t i es . So

t he r e h a d to be i n t h is c o n t ra c t a sy s te m wh er e t h e r e c o u l d h av e be e n

an acc ur a te i n d is p u ta b l e a n d au d i t a b l e s ys te m w h ic h co u ld d e te r m in e

ho w m uc h f oo tag e wa s u se d a n d h o w m uc h m on ey w as pa id w h ic h wa s

no t d o ne i n t h is c as e . N ow th is co u ld b e so m e th in g t ha t w as d o n e by

so m e b od y wh o w as ne g o t i a t i n g w h o is no t re a l l y f a m i l i a r w i th d e a ls l i ke

t h is o r i t co u ld h av e b e en d o ne w i t h an i n te n t I w o u l d no t k n o w a b ou t

t ha t .

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes a n d t h ey w o u l d h av e l os t . 20

I f y o u ta ke t h e 1 00 h o urs t h a t y o u ta lk in g ab o u t th a t i s 6 00 0 m i n u te s

t he r e is a lo t o f r ev e nu e t h a t t h ey w o u l d h av e l os t ev e n i f o n e g o es

acc or d i n g t o t he R 20 0 0 p er s ec o nd s a le o f t ha t fo o tag e .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: H m . Abs o l u te l y I wo u l d ag re e w i t h t h a t yo u

kn ow. Th is i s – I m e a n wh a t SABC d i d w as ex p os ed t h e ms e lv es t o f r au d

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kn ow i ng ly. So w hy t h ey d id i t i s s o m e th i ng t h a t I w ou ld n o t k n o w – I

wo u ld n o t u nd er s ta nd .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I t i s n o t a c o m m e rc i a l d ec i s i o n a n d w ha t

Na ze e m H o w a c a l le d i t w as a s w e e t d e a l s o w hy w o u l d th ey g iv e a

sw ee t d ea l to AN N 7 wh y I w as t o l d i s be c au se – a nd w ha t t h ey s a i d i t

wa s be ca us e t he SA BC o f f i c i a ls k n ew th a t t h e G u p ta ’s w er e c l os e t o

t he P r es i d en t a nd t h ey d i d no t w a n t t o c o m e i n t he i r w ay o r ask t o o

m a ny qu es t io ns so t he y j us t g av e a s we e t de a l t o th e m .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes a n d M r Sco t t i s g o in g t o 10

t es t i fy t h a t a l t h o ug h acc or d i n g th e p r ic i n g gu i de t h a t t h e SABC h a s t h ey

ha d to s e l l t h e 2 00 0 m in u tes a t R 1 0 0 p er m i nu te b u t i t w as – t he r e w as

a d isc o un t t ha t w as g iv e n t o AN N7 b ec au s e a cc ord i ng t o Mr Sc o t t i t w as

t he b i gg es t s a l e t h a t t he y re ce iv ed f r o m on e c l i en t . An d t h en th e

d is co u n t t h a t w as g iv en wa s R 3 0 a nd th e r e fo re t he y h ad t o p ay R 7 0 p er

m i nu te .

M R RA J ESH SU N D AR A M : Ok ay. Se e I wo u ld – I m ea n a s so m e b o dy

wh o h ad b e en i n th e b r oa dc as t b us in es s w ou l d w a n t to k no w w hy wo u ld

yo u w a n t t o g iv e fo o tag e a t a d is co u n t t o a p o ten t ia l r i va l? I f I w er e i n

t h is p os i t i on a nd I k n o w I a m j us t i n h i n ds i g h t a ny b od y c an sa y 20

an y th in g b u t I w o u l d h av e ch ar g ed th e m m or e t ha n w h a t I ch ar g e o th e r

c l i e n t s b ec a us e t h is i s a po ten t i a l r i va l . S o t h ey we re g i ve n a d i sc ou n t

an d l i k e I s a i d fo o ta g e o f th is n a tu re c a nn o t b e v a l u ed on a b l a nk e t

ba s is . T h ere is a rc h iv a l f o o ta g e sa y o f N e ls o n M a nd e l a f r o m th e 70 ’s

an d 8 0 ’s wh ic h is o f a f a r h i g he r va lu e th an o f a J u l iu s M a l e m a w h ic h

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wa s s ho t ye s te r d ay. So y o u c a nn o t s ay t ha t he re is a b l an ke t c l a i m

t ha t we g iv e y ou f o r a l l o f t ha t . So t he va l u a t i o n i f yo u s ee w as n o t

do n e o n a n y p ru d en t b as is . I t i s m y u n d ers tan d in g o f t he t h in g . An d

a ls o i f t h e re is a r a te c a r d th a t th e y h a d f o r th is f oo ta ge w as th is r a te

ca r d m a d e j us t f o r t h is d e a l o r i s t h i s s o m e th i ng t h a t e x i s t e d be fo r e? I s

so m e th i n g t ha t w o u l d b e i n te r es t in g t o k no w. Bu t l i k e I s a i d a 10 0

ho ur s o f f o o ta g e c os ts i n th e m i l l io ns o f d o l la r s an d t he v a l ua t io n o f

t ha t i s a – i s so m e th i n g th a t w o u l d r eq u i r e c har t e r e d ac co u n ta n ts t ha t

wo u ld r eq u i re p ro fes s i on a ls w ho wo u ld v a lu e . Yo u kn o w i t i s l i k e y ou

go to a s h op an d t h e r e is a n t i q ue fu r n i t u r e t he re a n d t h e re i s f u r n i t u r e 10

t ha t i s m a de t o d ay a nd th e r e is b r ok e n f u r n i t u r e an d yo u s e l l a l l o f i t a t

t he s a m e r a te . I f I w er e t o g iv e y o u a na l o gy o f a fu r n i t u r e s h op .


M R R A J ESH SU N DA R A M : Th a t i s w h a t t he y h av e do n e s o w h ic h – as

so m e b od y w h o h as b e en in t h i s p ro fes s i o n I f i nd t ha t a l i t t l e pu zz l in g

yo u k no w w hy wo u l d – wh y w o u l d th ey d o th a t? W h y w o u l d th ey d o

so m e th i n g l i ke t ha t?

A D V TH A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . T h a nk yo u . M a yb e Mr

Sco t t i s g o i n g t o b e a b le t o ex p l a in s o m e o f t ho se qu es t io ns t ha t y o u

a r e ra is in g . T h en in p a r ag ra p h 2 2 y o u d e a l w i t h a v i sa a nd l ab o ur l a w 20

v io l a t i on s . Co u l d yo u ju s t t e l l t he C h a i r p e rso n be ca us e w e be l i ev e t ha t

t he r e i s m a yb e I w i l l t ak e yo u t o th a t re co r d o f Mr – t o t h a t a r t i c l e o f Mr

Ba te m a n a s t o h ow d id yo u d i sc ov er th a t t he is su in g o f v i sa s to so m e o f

t he e m p l oy e es o f ANN 7 wh ic h w er e f r o m Ind i a w as n o t d o ne acc or d i n g

t o th e la ws o f t h e c o un t r y o r we re d o ne i n a m a n ner t h a t wa s i r re g u l a r ?

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W h at m a d e y ou t o b e aw ar e o f t ha t?

M R R A J ESH SU N D AR A M : We l l y o u k n o w th e – wh e n I a r r i ve d he re I

wa s ta ke n t o a g u es t ho us e w h i ch h ad N e p a l i n a t i o n a l w ho w as w ork in g

t he r e a nd n o t g e t t in g a ny sa l a ry. H is sa la ry wa s g iv e n i n ca sh i n I nd ia

an d h e w as w ork in g t h e r e an d w he n I s po k e w i t h h i m h e t o l d m e a l o t o f

t h i ng s w h ic h yo u k no w l e f t m e t h i nk in g . F o r in s ta nc e h e w as t h e re o n a

t ou r is t v is a . He w as n o t o n a w ork p e r m i t b u t h e wa s w ork in g t h e re .

He h ad t o co ok f o r d oz e ns o f p eo p le y o u kn ow n o t ju s t t h e p e op le w ho

a r e s ta y i ng i n t h e g u es t h o us e b u t a ls o th e l ab o ur e rs w ou ld co m e f r o m

Ind ia t o c on s t ru c t t h e s tu d i o [ i n d is t in c t ] . No w he t o l d m e a b o u t w ork in g 10

co nd i t i o ns t ha t t h ey w er e pu t i n wh ic h w er e s u b- hu m a n . Yo u k n o w th e

la b our e r s wo u ld co m e f r o m In d i a on t o u r i s ts ’ v i sa s f o r s t ay in g a t t he

s tu d i o P r o m is i s w h i le t he y w er e co ns t r uc t in g i t . Th er e w as v e ry b as i c

f ac i l i t ie s fo r to i l e ts a n d wa sh r oo m s . Th ey we re y ou k no w so t h is N e pa l i

na t io n a l w ou l d c oo k f o r t he m a n d ta ke – a nd t h e d r iv e rs w o u l d f e r r y th e

f oo d t o t h os e pe o p l e . An d a l so I re m e m b er A ja y G up ta an d o th e rs

co m p la i n i ng a bo u t h o w th os e p e op l e t h e r e a l a r ge nu m b e r o f t h e m w er e

co m i ng t o t he N e w Age o f f i c e to u se t h e w as hro o m s . So o n th e o ne

ha n d y ou do n o t p r ov i d e t h e m en o u gh wa s hr oo m s a t s i te a nd wh e n t h ey

co m e to t he o f f i c e y ou k no w the re is a t o ta l a m o u n t o f d i s gu s t t h a t h e 20

wo u ld t a l k a b ou t . So – so t h os e – t he y w ou l d s l e ep a t s i t e , th ey w ou l d

wo rk a t s i te , t he y w ou l d b e w or k i ng 2 4 ho ur s . T h er e w as no la b ou r

la ws t h a t we re a p p l ic ab le t o t h os e pe o p l e . An d i n m y v ie w yo u kn o w I

wo u ld b e co r re c te d b y a n ex per t i f t he re i s o ne wh y w o u l d – yo u k n ow

wh e n t he re is a b un d a n t s up p ly o f s k i l l ed a n d u nsk i l le d la b o ur f o r

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

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co ns t r uc t i o n i n Sou th A f r i c a w hy wo u ld t he y g e t t h es e p eo p le f r o m th e re

an d t h ey w er e – an d I wa s t o l d l a t e r th a t Ash u C h aw l a t h r ou g h t he

o f f i c es o f th e P re s i de n t c o u l d g iv e an y n u m b er o f v i sa s t o an y n u m b er

o f p e op le . So i f i t w ork s o u t c he a pe r f o r t he m to g e t – f l y p eo p le d ow n

by t h e p l a ne l o ad s f r o m In d i a t o co ns t ru c t h e r e t ha t i s wh a t t he y w ou ld

do ra th e r th a n p ay sa l a r i es h e r e . M r G u p ta a l so h ad a lo t o f

un ch ar i ta b l e th in gs to s ay a b o u t wo rk ers h e r e . H e sa i d t he y w ere l az y,

t he y w ou l d w ork c e r t a i n n u m b er o f h ou r s . I f y o u a sk t h e m to w ork

ov er n i gh t t h ey w ou ld n o t do t h a t . T h ey w ou l d n o t s t ay a t t he s i t e an d

wo rk s o j us t ge t p eo p l e f r o m Ind i a l e t t h e m s ta y a t th e s i te . G iv e t h e m 10

ver y b as ic f ac i l i t i es . G iv e t he m a s ack o f r i c e to c oo k on s i t e . G iv e

t he m – su p p l y t he m s o m e m e a ls f r o m th e gu es t h o us e a nd y o u k n ow –

pu t t h e m in – y o u k n ow I w ou l d c a l l th e m su b- h u m an c on d i t io ns i n

wh ic h th ey w er e w or k i ng . So t ha t i s wh e n I fo u nd o u t t h a t t h es e k i n ds

o f v i o la t io ns w er e t ak i ng p la ce h er e . A ls o to w ar ds th e la u nc h we h ad

re qu i r ed a fe w m or e pe o p l e be ca us e I – y ou kn o w w h i l e w e we re

m a k i ng o ur s t r a te g ie s a n d p la ns in I n d i a we h ad sa i d t h a t w e w i l l ge t

so m e sk i l l s f r o m Sou th A f r i ca . F o r i ns tan ce th e PC R s ta f f w a s

so m e th i n g th a t we sa id w e w i l l g e t f ro m So u th A f r i c a . An d a ls o th e

ca m er a p eo p le a n d a l l o f t h os e t h i ng s . Bu t i t w as s ud d e n ly d ec id e d 20

t ha t t he p r od uc t io n c o n t r o l r o o m we co u ld no t h i r e an yb o dy f r o m So u th

A f r i c a b ec au se 1 . Th e p eo p le t h a t we w er e g e t t i ng w er e v e r y ex pe ns iv e

acc or d i n g t o t he – to M r – t o A tu l Gu p ta a n d Mr La x m i Go e l a n d i t w o u l d

be c he a p er f o r us t o g e t pe o p l e f r o m Ind ia . A ls o c e r t a i n c r i t i ca l

po s i t i o ns t he y wa n t th e c o n t r o ls w i t h t h e m the y d i d n o t t r us t So u th

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

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Afr ic a n N a t i o n a ls o r j ou rn a l i s ts t o t ak e t ho se p os i t i on s . So t he

p r od uc t io n co n t r o l r oo m a nd th e v i d e o [ in d i s t i nc t ] a r e b e i ng on e o f

t ho se is su es . An d t h e i de a t h en w as t o g e t a wh o le l o t o f p e o p l e v e r y

qu ick ly f r o m Ind i a b e fo re t he la u nc h b ec a us e t h ey d i d n o t w a n t t o h i r e

f r o m So u th A f r i c a an d I wa s v e ry r es is ta n t on t h a t . I r e fu se d to s i g n o n

an y o f t he d oc u m e n ts w h i ch wo u l d g e t - f o r t h e nu m b er o f p e o p l e f r o m

Ind ia b ec a us e I t h ou g h t th a t w as – y ou k n ow – i t w as n o t r e qu i r e d . We

ha d a n u m b er o f p eo p l e i n So u th A f r i c a w h o c ou ld d o t h a t j ob .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : H m .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: So m y d ec i s io n – t h ey o ve rw ro te my 10

de c is i on a nd M r L ax m i G o e l i n In d ia ap p o i n te d a lo t o f p eo p le m a ny o f

wh o m w er e se n t h e r e o n v is i to r v is a t o wor k he re be fo r e t h e la u nc h a nd

t ha t i s so m e th in g t h a t I c o u l d d o n o th i n g a bo u t b ec a us e – y o u kn o w – I

d i d n o t s i gn o f f on t ha t a n d m o s t o f t h e m c a m e h er e a nd I w as a

w i t ne ss to th e k in d o f v io la t io n th a t w as ha pp e n i n g in t h is . I n th a t ca s e

a ls o th e s a m e th i n g h ap p en e d . Mr Ash u Ch a w l a w as g iv e n a l i s t o f

pe o p l e w h o w er e t o b e b r ou g h t f r o m the r e . H e w o u l d c on tac t – y ou

kn ow – b e in t o uc h w i t h th e P r es i d en t ’s O f f i ce , w o u l d be i n to uc h w i t h

t he Ho m e D e par tm e n t an d i m m e d i a te ly – y ou k n o w – w i t h i n a da y o r so

t he v is a ’s w ou l d b e iss u ed an d t h e – p l an e lo a ds o f pe o p l e w o u l d co m e 20

he re a nd s ta r t wor k i n g . I h av e c o m p la i ne d …


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ab ou t t h is as w e l l .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes a n d t he n – s o w h en y ou

re a l i s ed t h a t t h i s wa s h a p pe n i n g a m I c o r rec t t ha t t he n yo u wr o te t o –

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

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a f t e r y o u l e f t So u th A f r i c a …


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yo u r a i se d t h is w i t h th e

De p ar tm e n t o f Ho m e A f f a i r s ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: O h th a t i s c o r rec t . So I w r o te th e m two

m a i ls – y o u k n ow – a m a i l a nd a f o l l o w u p m a i l b u t I a m – y ou k n ow –

ve r y d is a pp o i n ted t h a t i t h as b ee n s ix y ea rs I h av e n o t g o t a s i n g l e

res p on se f ro m th e H o m e D ep ar tm e n t s e e k in g m or e d e ta i l s o r s e ek in g

an y e x t ra in f o r m a t io n a b o u t t he co m p l a i n t t ha t I g av e t he m .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ev e n – y ou kn ow w he n – I m e a n I a m

d i g r ess i ng a l i t t l e b i t . Ev e n a t t h e SABC w he n m y b oo k c a m e o u t – n o w

the de ta i l s a r e t h e r e – I w as t o l d th a t th e SABC Bo ar d ha d c o ns t i t u te d a

f o re ns ic i nv e s t i ga t io n i n to t he av er m e n ts t ha t I m a de bu t t o d a te i t h as

be e n o ve r a ye ar s i nc e t h a t C o m m i t t e e w a s se t up . I ha ve n ev er be e n

co n ta c te d t o g i ve o u t a ny d e ta i l s o r an y o f t h a t – y o u k n ow. So t ha t i s

– t h a t le av es m e a l i t t l e d is a pp o in te d – y ou k n ow. I t i s a l m os t l i k e –

yo u k no w – fo r s i x y ear s I h av e be e n f i gh t i n g a l on e ba t t l e a nd I ha ve

ha d no su p po r t f r o m th e t e a ms t h e d e par tm e n ts th a t a re s u p po se d to

inv es t i ga te t h es e c ha rg es . So … 20


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I w a n t t o p l ac e t ha t on r ec or d .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . M a y be j us t t o d ea l w i t h

t he – w i th t he H o m e A f f a i r s i s su e f i r s t .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: H uh- u h .

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : I f y ou ha ve a l o ok a t CC –

EXH IB IT C C 1 D Mr C ha i r m a n wh ic h is t h e lev e r a rc h f i l e su b m is s i o n by

M r Ap l en i . M ay I d ra w yo ur a t t en t io n t o p a ge 2 0 7 ? I n fa c t s t a r t i n g f r o m

21 0 – I be g y o ur p a rd o n . T h a t i s w h ere yo ur e m a i ls a r e – 2 1 0 . Ha ve

yo u f o un d i t ?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: O h , t ha nk y ou . N o w tha t f i r s t –

i f y ou – i f y o u ju s t o n e pa g e ba ck yo u w i l l f i n d an o ther e m a i l a t 2 0 9 an d

t ha t i s d a te d 6 Sep te m b er 20 1 3 .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: H uh- u h . 10

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Bu t i t s ee m s to m e t h a t t h e on e

t ha t i s d a te d – th a t ap p ea rs a t 2 11 i s da ted 4 Se p te m b er. Am I r ig h t?

Is t ha t th e 4 t h o r 14 Se p te m be r – 2 - 1 -1 ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: 2 - 1 - 1?


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I t h i nk i n t h e p r i n t i n g th e r e ha s b e e n a n

e r r o r …


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Bu t I w ou ld go w i t h w ha t w as on t he

o r i g in a l . Yo u k n o w – I t h in k i t s ho u ld be t h e 4 t h . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: I t lo ok s l i k e th e 4 t h to m e a s

we l l . Ye s , s o a re t h es e t he e m a i l s t ha t yo u d i r ec te d to t h e De p ar tm e n t

o f H o m e A f f a i r s?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : And I s ee t ha t y o u h ad c o p i e d

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on th e e m a i l s s o m e o f th e re c i p i e n ts t h e r e M r Ap l en i a nd y o u ha ve go t

a w h o l e l i s t o f o th e r pe o p l e ?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : W h ere d i d y o u g e t th es e

ad dr es se s?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I w en t o n t he w eb s i t e o f t h e H o m e

De p ar tm e n t an d I – y ou k no w – t h ey h a ve g o t a wh o le l o t o f o f f i c e

be ar e rs a nd t he i r e m a i l ID s t h a t w er e l i s te d .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: So I p u t a c o m p la i n t to ea ch o f th e o f f i c e 10

be ar e rs a n d a ls o to t h e H e a d t h e r e . N o w I k ne w tha t – y o u k no w –

t he r e c o u l d b e a d is p u te la t e r o n . So w ha t I d id w as t o a ls o m ark a

co py o f t h i s co m p l a i n t t o v a r io us jo u r n a l i s t s .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: H op in g t h a t i f – yo u k no w – t h a t i t w i l l b e

t ak en b y t he m e d i a a nd th e r e w o u l d b e so m e p re ss ur e o n th e

de p ar tm e n t t o i nv es t i g a te th es e c ha rg es b u t l i k e I sa id I a m n o t a wa re

o f an y in ve s t i ga t io n t h a t ha s h ap p en e d . I w as n o t in vo lv e d i n a ny o f

t ha t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s a nd yo u in t h e e m a i l t h a t i s 20

a t p ag e 2 0 9 y ou m ak e m e n t i on o f ce r t a in pe o p l e w h er e yo u s ay – yo u

su gg es t t ha t t he i r v is as w er e i ss ue d i n a m an n er th a t w a s n o t re g u l a r .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes a n d c ou ld y o u j us t re a d

in to t h e r ec or d m a y be s ta r t o f f w i th o r m a yb e b ec a us e i t i s a s ho r t

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e m ai l . M a y be i f yo u c ou l d j us t r ea d th a t e m a i l .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: So t h is i s …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A t pa g e 2 -0 - 9 .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: O h , 2 - 0 - 9 .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: And t h is i s d a ted 6 Sep te m b er 20 1 3 a t

08 :3 3 a m . So t h is i s ad dr ess e d to a l l t h e o f f i c i a l s a t th e Ho m e

De p ar tm e n t a n d t h e j ou rn a l i s ts t ha t I h av e a ls o m ar ke d on t h i s .

“D ea r S i r , I a m p a i n ed t o n o te t h a t d es p i t e my

co m p la i n t t o yo u a f ew da ys a g o I ha v e g o t a n 10

ack n ow l ed g e m e nt f r o m yo u . I w ou ld a ls o l i k e t o

re por t t ha t I n f i n i ty M e d ia s h ar eh o ld e r A tu l G up ta

an d La x m i Go e l h av e s ta r te d a l a r ge sc a l e c ov er up

op er a t i o n t o h i d e t h e t ra cks o f th e v is a f ra ud t he y

a r e p e r pe t r a t i n g . ( I n d is t in c t ) o f th e do ze n o f I nd i an

la b our e r s h av e q u ic k l y l e f t So u th A f r i c a m a ny I nd i an

na t io n a l s w h o h av e c o m e o n b us in es s v is as a r e

a ls o b e en ask e d to s top r ep or t in g t o w o rk a f t e r I

m a d e m y c o m p l a in t t o y o u pu b l ic . I f e a r t he y w i l l

be s en t b ack t o I nd i a a s a m e an s t o de s t ro y 20

ev i d e nc e . Yo u c a n s t i l l p r o be t h e iss ue b y

d is c r ee t ly s e ek i n g d e ta i l s f r o m the e d i t o r i a l s ta f f

ab o u t t he wor k d on e by th e i n te r n a t i o na ls wh o c a m e

in o n b us in es s v i sa s . T he se i nc l ud e

Sa n j ay Pa n de y, V is h n u Sh a nk ar, An a nd Pr ak as h ,

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Sh a m in a m o ng o th ers . T h e d e l ay i n p r ob i ng th e

m a t t e r ha s a l r e a dy g i ve n t i m e t o M r G up ta a nd

M r Go e l t o de s t ro y ev i de nc e an d c ov er t h e i r t r ac ks .

I h op e yo u w i l l ack n o w l ed g e m y m a i l an d s ta r t t o

p r ob e a t t he e ar l i es t , R a j es h Su nd ar a m . ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes , th a nk yo u . As yo u a r e

aw ar e a s w e c o nv ey e d t h is to y o u o n Sun d ay t h a t M r Ap l en i h as

ac tua l l y p u t th e do cu m e n t t ha t s h o ws t ha t t he r e w as i n f ac t a n

inv es t i ga t io n i n to yo ur c o m p la i n t .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : D o y o u ac ce p t th a t?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I a m n o t aw ar e o f t h a t be ca us e I wa s n ev er

in f o r m e d o f i t .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: M y e m a i l s we n t u na ns w er ed . T h er e w as n o

res p on se t ha t I g o t a t a ny t i m e .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: J a .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : M ay be b e fo r e w e g o to r e po r t

m a yb e j us t to m e n t i o n t h a t yo u h a d c o m p l a i n ed an d M r Ba r ry Ba te m a n 20

…


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A lso t o ok th e m a t te r u p w i th

Ho m e A f f a i r s .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s , y es .

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: And h is e m a i l a p pe ar s a t pa g e

20 8 an d he is – h e is a j o u r na l i s t o f Pr e to r ia Co r r es po n de n t Ey e w i t n ess

Ne w s an d t h en h is l e t t e r – h is e m a i l o f – t ha t a p pe ar s . I t i s d a te d

9 Oc tob er 20 1 3 a nd h e h ad ad dr ess e d t h e e m a i l t o Mr R on n i e M a m o e pa

o f t h e D e pa r tm e n t o f H o m e A f f a i r s an d h e w as r a is i n g th e i ss ue t ha t

yo u h a d co m p l a i ne d ab o u t t he m a t t e r a n d t he d ep ar tm e n t h ad – h a d n o t

a t t e nd e d to i t .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A r e y ou a war e o f t h a t?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I a m s ee i ng t h i s le t t e r fo r t h e f i r s t t i m e . 10

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th e e m a i l f o r th e f i r s t t i m e ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s , y es .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A l r ig h t , o ka y. So h e – h e to ok

t he m a t t e r u p an d t h en i n th a t e m a i l he – i f y ou re a d t he ve ry la s t

se n te nc e .

“T h e f o l l ow i ng pe o p l e ha ve b ee n wor k i n g … ”

I f y ou re a d t h a t h e h as l i s t ed so m e o f t he pe o p l e th a t y o u l i s t ed in t h e

p r ev i o us e m a i l t h a t y ou r e ad . Co u l d y o u j u s t r e ad t ho se n a m es ou t?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: W h i ch p ag e i s t h is ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : So r ry – pa g e 2 -0 - 7 s t i l l . 20

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “D ear R on n ie , I a m j us t f o l l ow i ng

up t o co n f i r m t h a t yo u a r e on t o p o f t h i s . I ha ve

s in ce o ur ch a t y es te rd ay s p ok en t o M r Sun d ar a m .

He ha s co n f i r m e d th a t n o t a s i n g l e p e rs o n f ro m th e

de p ar tm e n t h as r es po n de d t o h is c o m p l a in t ne ar ly a

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we ek a f t e r h e s en t i t t o s en i o r o f f i c i a ls i n t h e

de p ar tm e n t a D G a n d D D G an d s ev er a l o th e rs . I t i s

wo r th n o t i n g t ha t Su n d ar a m se n t a f o l l ow u p le t t e r

t o t h e a bo v e m e n t io n ed p eo p l e i n wh ic h h e s a i d h e

ha d b ec o m e a w ar e o f a c ov er u p . D es p i t e t h is th e

de p ar tm e n t s t i l l h ad n o t re ac te d . Su n d ar a m h as

ra i se d co nc er ns t h a t de p ar tm e n t o f f i c ia ls a r e

co m p la ce n t in t h es e v is as i r r eg u l a r i t i es w h ic h co u ld

ex p l a i n t h e de p ar tm e n t ’s l ack o f u r g e n cy. T h e

f o l l o w i n g p e o p l e h av e be e n w or k i n g a t AN N 7 a s 10

ed i to r i a l s t a f f . H ow ev er t he y a r e a l l e g ed in t he

co un t r y o n b us i n ess v is as . T h es e v i sas wer e

a r r an g e d th ro u gh Sa h ar a C o m p u te rs . P l e as e c h eck

t he v i sa s an d o f co ur se th e n a m e s a re

An a nd P ra ka sh , Sa n ja y Pan d ey, D ee p ak Ka us h ik ,

Sh a m in H uss a in , V is h nu Sh a nk ar, Y P S i n gh ,

Ra v i Pur i an d Su n i l Ku m ar. P l e as e c h eck t he v i sa s

t ha t w ere is su e d t o t he se p e op le t o c o n f i r m w h e th er

t he y a r e b us in es s v is as o r w or k v is as . My d e ad l i n e

f o r t h i s i n fo r m a t i on is m id d ay. Re g ard s , 20

Bar r y Ba te m a n P re to r i a Co r r es po n de n t Eye w i t ne ss

Ne w s a nd t h e d e ta i l s . ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes , th a nk y o u a n d t h e r e is

an o the r e m a i l t h a t yo u h ad t o s e nd a f t e r y o u h a d v ie w ed o n T V a

res p on se by t he f o r m er M i n is t e r o f H o m e A f f a i r s D r N a l e d i Pa nd or.

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: W h at – w ha t h ap p en e d th a t

t i m e ? Yo u l i s te n ed a n d y o u s a w w ha t t h e M i n i s te r h a d r es p on d – w as

res p on d i n g to Par l i a m e n t .



M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: An d I – I d id n o t l i s t en t o w ha t sh e s a id b u t

I h ad re a d a f e w m e d i a r e p or ts a bo u t w ha t w as b e i n g s a i d a n d I k n ew

tha t t h e re w as m u c h m or e t o t he – t o t he in ve s t i ga t io n t h an w h a t w as

be i ng r ep or ted . So t h en I ha d wr i t te n s ay i n g t h a t – y o u k n ow – th e 10

o th er as pe c ts s ho u ld a l so b e i nv es t i g a te d ab o u t t h i s .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . I f yo u c o u l d j us t t u r n t o

pa g e 2 -1 - 4 .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T h a t i s wh a t Mr Ap l e n i ha s p u t

up . In f ac t m ay b e C h a i r i f I c o u l d j us t t a ke Ch a i r pe r so n to 2 - 0 - 1

be ca us e t ha t …

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: 2 - 0 - 1?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : 2 - 0 - 1 ye s . I t i s a s u b m iss io n .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes a nd y ou c an – t h a t – t ha t

say s fe e db ac k r e por t o n t he m e d i a c o m p la in t t h a t i n t he i m m i g r a t i o n

s ta tu s o f fo re ig n ers e m p l oy ed b y A f r i c a N e ws N e tw or k – AN N7 . D o y ou

se e t h a t?


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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : And t he n th ey w er e p r ov id i ng

t he M i n i s t e r w i t h fe e db ac k .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : And in th e s ec o nd – o n t h e

sec o nd p ag e – p a ge 2 - 0 - 2 …


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : You w i l l se e th a t th e l i s t o f

na m e s t ha t ca m e f ro m M r Ba te m a n ’s l i s t i n t he e m a i l a n d a ls o

inc o r p or a t i ng so m e o f t h e n a m e s t h a t yo u ha d on y o ur l i s t …


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th os e p ers o ns a r e l i s te d th e r e .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A nd t h e n th e r e is a d i sc uss io n

t ha t - t he y d e a l w i t h a d isc us s i o n i n t h e m a t t e r b u t I w o u l d l i k e y o u t o

jus t lo ok a t wh a t th e i r f in d in gs I wo u l d i m a g i n e wer e be ca us e in

pa ra gr a ph 6 w h a t d o th ey s ay t h e re – a t p a ge 2 - 0 - 2?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “O n fu r t he r in ve s t i ga t io n

I ns pe c to r a te d i sc uss e d t ha t 3 1 fo r e ig n n a t i on a ls a r e

on i n t ra -c o m p an y p er m i t . H ow ev er o n e o f t he se 3 1

ha s a l r e ad y r es ig n e d an d le f t t h e c o un t ry. O u r 20

m is s i on i n Ne w D e l h i h as b ee n co n tac te d t o e ns ur e

t ha t th e pe r m i t i s c a nc e l l e d . ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes an d t he n i f y ou t u r n ov er

t he pa g e w h a t d o th ey s a y i n p a r ag ra p h 7 ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “T h e o th e r n i n e fo re i gn e m p l oy ee s

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ar e o n v is i t o r v is as w i t h a c on d i t i on o f a t t e nd i ng

bu s i n ess m in u tes . T h r ee o f th e n in e h av e a l re a dy

le f t th e c ou n t r y. ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s a nd t he y a t t ac h t ho s e

pa ss po r t s an d t he n m a yb e w e s h ou l d j us t r e ad - i t i s n o t to – i t i s n o t

t oo lo n g b ec a us e t h en I w i l l ta ke yo u to t h e re l ev an t pa g es .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Sur e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes to d ea l w i t h t h e m . Ok ay

an d th e n p ar a gr ap h 8 .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “T h e e m p l oy er i n d i ca te d t h a t t h ey 10

i n t en d ke e p i n g th e o th e rs s i x fo re ig n e m p lo ye es .

As a r es u l t t he e m p l oy er ha s a p pr oa ch ed t h e

de p ar tm e n t an d m ad e a r eq u es t f o r a v i sa o f t h e

re qu i r e m e nt f o r w ork p e r m i t an d sh ou l d th e

de p ar tm e n t a ppr ov e th ey w i l l m ak e a n a pp l i ca t io n

f o r th es e e m p l oy e es t o b e iss u ed w i t h c r i t i ca l s k i l l s

pe r m i t s . ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s a n d t h en th e ne x t

pa ra gr a ph .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “T h e m e d i a c o m p la i n t re fe r r e d t o 20

e i g h t f o r e i g ne rs a n d th e e m p l oy er c o n f i r m e d fo u r .

Na m e ly An an d P ra ka sh , Sa n j a y Pa n de y,

De e p ak Ka us h ik a n d Vis h n u Sh a nk ar. Ac cor d i n g t o

t he e m p l oy er t h r e e o f t h es e f ou r h av e a l re ad y le f t

t he c ou n t ry an d t h e I ns p ec to ra te h as c on f i r me d t h a t

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Sa n j ay Pa n de y, D e e pa k Ka us h ik a nd

Vis h n u Sh a nk ar l e f t t h e co u n t ry on t he 5 t h an d

6 Sep te m b er 20 1 3 . ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s a n d t h en t he la s t

pa ra gr a ph .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “T h e e m p l oy er m e n t i on s t h a t t h e

o th e r f o u r n a m e l y R av i Pur i , Sh a m i n Hu ss a i n ,

Y P S i n g h a nd Su n i l Ku m ar w er e c o ns u l t an t s s en t

by Es se l M e d ia an d h av e s i nc e l e f t th e c ou n t ry.

T he I ns pe c to r a te is s t i l l a w a i t in g t h e i r f u l l d e ta i l s 10

f r o m th e M i ss io n i n I nd i a i n o rd er to co n f i r m i f

in d ee d th ey h av e l e f t t he co u n t ry. ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A t p a ge 2 - 0 - 4 t he y ha ve

rec o m m e n d a t i on s . W h a t d o th ey r ec o m m e nd t o ( i n t e rv en es )?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I f – i f I m ay a d d a ls o .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h er e i s a b i t o f a – y ou kn o w – a f ac tua l

e r r o r h e re b ec a us e I r e m e m b er t h a t R av i Pur i a n d Su n i l Ku m a r w ere n o t

e m p l oy e es o f Es se l M e d i a b u t t h ey we r e e m p l oy e es o f a co m p a ny

ca l l ed ST V w h ic h is o wn e d b y t h e b r o the r o f M r La x m i G o e l . 20


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: So t h e y w er e no t – t o t he b es t o f m y

kn ow l ed g e I r e m e m b er t ha t t h ey w er e n o t e m p l oy e es o f Ess e l M e d ia b u t

t he y w er e e m p l oy ee s o f ST V.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , t h an k y o u a nd t h e n i f y ou

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t u rn ov er t he pa g e th ey h av e re co m m e n d a t io ns t he r e .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “R e c o m m e n da t i on s . T h e f o l l o w i n g

rec o m m e n d a t i on s a re m a d e b as ed o n t h e

d is cu ss io ns ab o u t : t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r ta k e n o te o f

t he c on te n t s o f t h is r ep or t . Fo r e ig n e m p l oy ee s on

v is i t o r ’s v is as be o r de re d t o l ea ve t h e co un t r y a n d

be a l l ow e d t o ap p ly fo r t h e co r re c t p e r m i ts f r o m

co un t r y o f o r i g i n . ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s a n d th a t wa s s ig n e d – t h e

pe rs on ’s n a m e th a t i s p u t u n d er t he r e – t he s i g n a tu r e – u nd er 10

s ig n a tu re ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: M k us e l i Ap le n i .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s a nd t he d es i g na t io n ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: D i r ec to r - G e n er a l .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: O k ay an d t h en t h e

rec o m m e n d a t i on wa s ap pr ov e d an d t h e p ers o n w ho s i g n ed is th e

M i n is t e r o f H o m e A f f a i r s?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s w ho is th a t p e r so n ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I t i s M s G N M Pa n dor. 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s a nd t he d a te ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h e d a te is 21 /09 /2 01 3 .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . So w o u l d yo u th e n a cc ep t

t ha t th e r e w as a n i nv es t ig a t i o n t h a t wa s do n e i m m e d ia te l y a f te r t he se

co m p la i n t s b ec au se y ou r c o m p la i n t i s da ted 4 Se p te m b er /6 Se p te m be r

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…


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A nd b y th e t i m e y o u w ro te in

Oc to be r a n i n qu i r y – a n i nv es t ig a t i o n h a d be e n d o ne .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: H ow ev er i n f o r m a l i t w as bu t i t

ha d be e n c on d uc ted .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I t h a d b e en c o n du c te d …


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Bu t I th i nk I s h ou l d ha ve be e n g i ve n a – y ou 10

kn ow – a s ay i n th is – y ou k n o w – t he y s ho u l d h av e ask e d m e b ec a us e I

ha ve g iv e n t he m – y ou k n ow – th e f e w i na ccu ra c i es t h a t ha ve c o m e i n .

A ls o – y o u k n ow – t h es e a r e t he n a m es t h a t I r e m e m b er o f t he e d i t o r ia l

s t a f f . Th er e w ere a w h o l e l o t o f o the r l a bo ur – la b ou re rs w ou ld c o m e in

t he r e , t h e co ns t r uc t io n wor ke rs , t h e sk i l l e d /u ns k i l l ed pe o p l e . T h a t h as

no t b e en p ar t o f t h i s i nv es t ig a t i o n w h ic h i s s o m e th i ng t h a t I m e n t i o ne d

in m y co m p l a i n t a s w e l l . So – so w ha t th e y ha ve d on e h er e i s t h a t t he y

ha ve s e l ec t iv e l y us e d c e r t a i n e le m e n ts . I w as n o t p a r t o f t h is – y ou

kn ow – I w as n ev er c o n ta in e d f o r m y v i e ws o n th is – o n m y c o m p l a in t

bu t a w h o l e l o t o f t he o th e r s w h o h ad co m e … 20

C HA IR PER SO N : D i d t h ey ev er a ck no w l e d ge r ec e ip t o f yo ur c o m p la i n t?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: N o .

C HA IR PER SO N : D i d t h ey ev er w r i te t o y o u …

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: N ev er.

C HA IR PER SO N : Or c o m m u n ic a te w i t h y ou i n an yw ay ?

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M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I t ha s be e n a b ou t s ix ye ar s n ow. I h av e n o t

rec e i ve d an y …

C HA IR PER SO N : An d …

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ack n ow l ed g e m e n t o r a ny – a ny th i ng f r o m

the m .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d i t i s o n l y wh e n y o u we re p re p ar i n g f o r g i v i ng y o ur

ev i d e nc e h er e t h a t yo u go t t o kn o w th a t s o m e th i n g …


C HA IR PER SO N : Wa s d o ne ev e n th o u gh i t w as – d i d no t c ov er

ev ery b od y t h a t yo u ha d c o m p la in e d a b ou t an d … 10


C HA IR PER SO N : D o es no t ap p e ar t o ha ve be e n a d eq u a te ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s Ch a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : H m .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T ha nk yo u an d I r e fe r re d y o u

yes te r da y t o pa g e 2 -1 -3 – i f y o u r ec a l l wh er e yo ur n a m e a pp e ars a s

i t e m n u m b er 3 1 .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yo u re ca l l t ha t?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . I w o u l d l i ke yo u to g o t o

pa g e 2 -1 - 4 .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th er e as yo u c a n se e th e r e a re

na m e s th e r e th a t a re h i g h l ig h te d in r e d .

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A nd th e r e is – t he r e s ee m s to

be a p a ge m is s i ng b u t – b u t i t d oe s n o t be ca us e i t i s a c on t in u a t i on

f r o m 3 1 . I be g yo ur p a r do n . So i f y o u l oo k a t – t h e r e a re o n e , tw o ,

t h re e , fo u r na m e s th a t a r e h i gh l i g h te d i n re d . C o u l d y ou ju s t r e a d

t ho se n a m e s a nd r ea d w h a t t he y a r e – t he na tu r e o f t h e i r v is as a nd

a ls o r e ad w ha t th e c o m m e n t i s r i g h t a t t h e e n d – t ha t i s t h e l as t c o l u m n

– t h e f o u r t h co l u m n – t he f i f t h c o l u m n ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: So i t e m n u m b e r 33 …


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I s Ana n d Pr a kas h . T h er e i s a p ass p or t

nu m b er w h i ch is g iv e n .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: V i s i t o r s v i sa is su ed o n 14 /0 8 /2 0 13 w i t h t h e

co nd i t i o n f o r bu s i n ess m e e t i n gs v a l id f o r 3 0 d ay s – ex p i r e d .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: H e w as a s tu d i o d i r ec to r . H e wa s n o t t he re

f o r m ee t in gs . He w as a c tu a l l y a s tu d io d i rec to r d o in g wor k i n t h e PC R

sw i t ch i ng v i de os .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s a n d h ad th ey c o n tac te d y o u 20

be fo r e co n du c t i ng t h is i nv es t ig a t i o n yo u wo u ld ha ve g iv e n t he m th a t

in f o r m a t i o n?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Abs o l u te ly. I w ou l d h av e d o ne t h a t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes , th a nk yo u a nd t h en t h e

ne x t n a m e ?

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M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: 3 6 , Sa n j ay Pa n de y. H is p ass p or t n u m b er i s

g iv e n a n d v is i to r ’s v is a is su e d o n 1 2 /0 8 /20 1 3 w i t h th e c on d i t i on f o r

bu s i n ess m e e t i n gs v a l i d f o r 9 0 d ay s a n d i t i s v a l id a nd le f t t he co u n t ry

bu t h e w as n o t th e r e fo r b us i ne ss m e e t i n gs . He w as ac tua l l y th e on e

wh o c o or d i na te d t h e w h o l e p r o du c t i o n f o r th e l a un ch a nd he w as a ls o

t ak i n g c a re o f th e o ve ra l l PC R op er a t i o ns wh i l e th e l a u nc h h a pp e ne d .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: So he w a s ac tua l l y w ork in g a t t h e M i d r an d

O f f i c e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : An d t h en n u m b er 3 8 ? 10

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: De e pa k Ka u s h ik , v is i t o r ’s v i sa i ss ue d on

14 /0 8 /2 0 13 w i t h a c o nd i t i on f o r b us in es s m e et i ng s va l i d fo r 3 0 d ays ,

ex p i r e d l e f t t h e co u n t ry. H e wa s a ls o w ork in g d ur in g t he la u nc h .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A re y o u a b l e t o te l l w he th er

t he y l e f t be fo r e y ou le f t t he c o un t r y o r a f te r y o u l e f t ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h ey l e f t a f t e r I l e f t t h e c ou n t ry.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A f t e r y ou le f t th e c o un t r y?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T ha nk y ou a n d th e n t he l as t

on e ? 20

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: V i s hn u Sh an ka r, th ey h av e g o t h is p ass p or t .

V is i to r ’s p e r m i t i s s u e d o n 1 2 /08 /2 01 3 w i t h t h e c on d i t i on f o r b us i ne ss

m e e t i n gs v a l id f o r 60 da ys – 6 0 d ay s y es .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Va l i d , l e f t t he co un t r y. H e w as p ar t o f th e

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ou tp u t t es t t h e re . H e wa s c le a r in g s c r i p t s . H e wa s m ak in g r u nd o w ns

an d – an d h e wa s d o i ng e d i t o r i a l wo rk i n v i o la t io n o f th e v i sa t ha t h e

wa s is su e d .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . So a s fa r a s y o u a re

co nc er ne d ev en t he in fo r m a t io n th a t i s h e r e is u n re l i a b l e ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I wo u ld s ay t h a t – y o u k no w – b ec a us e w e

ha d a n e ws r oo m fu l l o f j o u r na l i s t s w ho k ne w w h a t t h es e p eo p le w er e

do i ng .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I f t h ey ha d g o ne n o t t o m e b u t a ny o f t h e 10

pe o p l e w or k i ng a t t h a t t i m e a t AN N 7 th ey wo u ld ha ve k n o wn tha t th es e

pe o p l e wer e wo rk i n g t h e r e . T h ey we re n o t t h e re f o r m e e t i ng s . T h ey

we re no t th e r e f o r an y o th e r pu r p os e – no t as t ou r is ts – b u t t he y w er e

ac tua l l y ac t iv e ly w ork in g i n th e ne w s ro o m …


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I n v io l a t i on a n d I w ou ld w a n t t o s t a te h e r e

as we l l t h a t I d i d no t s i gn o f f on t h es e a p po i n tm e n ts . I d i d no t s i gn o f f

on a ny o f t he se p eo p le c o m i ng a nd w ork in g i n Sou th A f r i ca .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h is w as p u t b e fo re m e a n d I h ad 20

ca teg or ic a l l y s a i d I w o u l d n o t d o i t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , t h a nk yo u a n d t he n l as t l y

i f I m ay j us t ta ke yo u to pa g e 3 6 5 o r m ay b e t h i s i s a p a r l i a m e nta r y j us t

f o r a u th en t ic a t i o n pu rp os es . I f I m a y ju s t t ak e t he C h a i r p e rs o n t o p ag e

35 9 .

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M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: 36 9 ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : 3 - 5 - 9 – 3 -5 -9 M r C h a i r . 3 - 5 - 9

yes . I t i s j us t t o wa rd s t he en d o f t he bu n d l e . A r e yo u t h e r e

M r Sun d ar a m ? F o u nd i t ?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: O k ay, t ha nk yo u . Th a t i s – th a t

do cu m e n t h as a l og o H o m e A f f a i r s D ep ar tm e n t an d i t i s w r i t t e n

su b m iss io n an d th e n s ub j ec t – w ha t i s t h e su b j ec t th e r e ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Pa r l ia m e n ta r y Q ue s t i on Nu m b er 24 9 0

Na t io n a l Ass e m b l y : w r i t t e n re p ly – M r G BD Mc In to sh C O PE. 10

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s a nd w h a t i s t h e p ur p os e o f

t ha t?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: To p r ov i d e M i n is t e r w i th a d ra f t re sp o ns e

a t t ac h ed a s Ann ex ur e 1 – t he Pa r l ia m e n ta ry Q u es t i o n 24 9 0 ( N A) fo r

co ns i d e r a t i on a nd a pp ro va l .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes a nd i f yo u g o t o a – an d

t he n i t i s t he p ag e t ha t h as go t s i gn a tu re s . I f y ou g o to p ag e 3 61 t he re

is a r ec o m m e n d a t i o n t h e r e .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : An d w h a t i s t he 20

rec o m m e n d a t i on ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “ I t i s r ec o m m en d e d t h a t M i n i s t e r

ap pr ov e th e d r a f t r es p o ns e p r e p are d by th e

de p ar tm e n t in r es pe c t o f Pa r l i a m e n ta ry Qu es t io n

24 9 0 . ”

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes a n d i t i s s ig n e d by t h e

D i r ec to r - G e n era l ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: D i r ec to r - G e n er a l on 3 Oc tob er 2 01 3 .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A nd i t a p p ear s t o h av e b ee n

ap pr ov e d b y t h e M i n is te r o n w h ic h d a te ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s . On 6 Oc tob er 2 01 3 .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes a n d t h en th e r e is a h ug e

l i s t . I a m s ure i t s t a r t ed w i th t h e Ch ie f D i r ec to rs , C h i e f Ad m i n C l e rks

bu t a t pa g e 36 3 t he n w e g e t t o s ee w h a t t he a c tu a l q ue s t i on 2 4 90 t h a t

wa s p os e d b y M r M c In tos h w h a t – wh a t th e qu es t io n wa s . 10


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: O k ay. C o u l d y o u ju s t r ea d t h a t

in t o t h e r ec ord p l e as e ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: O n wh ic h p a ge is t h is ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Pa ge 3 - 6 - 3 .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: 24 9 0 .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : 2 4 90 , y es .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: J a .

“W h e th er h e r de p ar tm e n t w i l l t ak e a ny s tep s w i th

re gar d to a l l e ga t io ns de ta i l s f u r n is he d t ha t s o m e 20

s ta f f m e m b ers f r o m In d i a we re e m p l oy e d i l l eg a l l y

an d w i t h ou t w ork p e r m i ts by A f r i c a Ne ws N e tw ork 7 .

I f n o t w h a t i s t h e d e pa r tm e n t ’s po s i t i o n w i t h r e g ard

t o a , t h is m a t t e r an d b , o th e r w h i s t l e b l o we rs w ho

b r i n g s i mi l a r o cc ur r e nc es to t h e a t t en t io n o f a

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de p ar tm e n t . I f s o w h a t a r e th e r e l ev a n t d e ta i l s? ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , t h an k y o u a nd t h e n i f y ou

t u rn o ver t h e p a g e a t p ag e 3 64 t h a t q u es t i on as y ou ca n s e e th e r e is a

s ta m p th a t a p p ear s t o be f r o m Pa r l ia m e n t .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : D o y o u se e th a t?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A t th e b o t to m o f t h a t pa g e

da te d 17 Se p te m b er. N o I t h i nk t h i s i s th e c o py t ha t w as r ec e iv ed b y

t he Co m m i ss i on . I b e g yo ur p a r d on – r e ce i ve d f ro m th e C o m m i ss i o n 10

f r o m Par l i a m e n t a nd i t i s m ark e d 2 9 80 b u t I wo u l d l i k e y ou t o g o t o

pa g e 3 6 6 b ec a us e t h a t i s w her e a re p ly i s g i ve n by th e d e p ar tm en t t o

t he qu es t i on .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Mr Ch a i rp e r so n w e c an c o n f i r m

t ha t t h i s ap p ea rs t o be i nc o m p l e te bu t i t i s i nd e e d c o m p l e te . We h a d

rec e i ve d i t f r o m Par l i a m e n t . Ye s , t ha nk yo u an d t he re p ly – wh a t i s t he

re p ly t o t h e q u es t i o n t h a t i s a l re a dy r ea d a t p a ge 3 66 ?


“T h e De p ar tm e n t o f Ho m e A f f a i r s ac ted i m m e d i a te ly 20

on t he a l le g a t i on s t h a t A f r i c a N e ws Ne tw ork 7 h ad

e m p l oy e d f o re i gn n a t i o na ls w i th o u t p ro pe r wo rk

pe r m i t s . I t w as a l le g ed in t he c o m p la i n t r ec e iv e d

by t h e d ep ar tm e n t t h a t e i g h t fo re i gn n a t i o na ls w er e

e m p l oy e d b y AN N 7 w i t ho u t p r op er wo rk p e r m i ts . A

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pa r l ia m e n ta ry i nv es t ig a t i o n – a p re l i m i n ary … ”

Sor r y.


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “A p r e l i m i na ry i nv es t ig a t io n

co nd uc te d by t he d e par tm e n t co n f i r m e d t ha t e ig h t

f o re i gn ers w er e i n po ss ess io n o f v i s i t o r ’s p e r m i ts

an d i n t he co u n t ry l e ga l l y. T h e c o nd i t i on o f th e

pe r m i t s a l lo w ed t h e m to a t te n d bu s i n ess m e e t i n gs .

T he de p ar tm e n t a l so d is co ver e d t h a t f o u r o f t h e

e i g h t f o r e i g ne rs ha d a l r e a dy l e f t th e c o un t r y a nd t h e 10

re m a in in g fo u r w er e f o un d to b e co n d uc t i n g t ra in i ng

f o r e m p l oy e es bu t t he y wer e n o t o n th e pa y r o l l o f

AN N 7. De sp i te t he f ac t t h a t AN N 7 d id n o t c on s i d e r

t he m to be e m p l oy e es s i nc e t h ey we re n o t

re m u ne ra te d f o r su ch an ac t i v i ty th e d ep ar tm e n t

f ou n d th a t t he f o u r pe rs on s w h o v io l a te d t he

co nd i t i o n o f t h e i r p e r m i ts an d w er e t he re fo r e

o r der e d t o l e av e t he c ou n t ry. T he d e pa r tm e n t ha s

co n f i r m e d t h a t th ey a l l h av e l e f t th e co u n t ry. T he

de p ar tm e n t u n der s ta n ds th a t wh is t l e b l o w ers r a i se 20

co nc er ns s o t ha t th os e c on cer n s c a n b e a dd re ss ed .

Any p er so n w h o wo u l d l i ke t o r a is e co nc e rns a b ou t

s i m i l a r occ ur r e nc es i s e nc o ur ag e d to c a l l th e

de p ar tm e n t h o t l i n e o n 0 8 00 6 0 11 9 0 a nd t h ey c an d o

so a no ny m o u s ly a n d a r e a ls o n o t e xp ec te d to p ro ve

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t he a l le g a t i o ns . ”

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , th a nk y o u . T h e

Ch a i r pe r so n as ke d yo u w h e th er yo u w er e ev er c o n ta c te d by t h e

de p ar tm e n t a f t e r yo u h a d f i le d yo ur c o m p l a i n ts . M a y be i t i s – i t w ou ld

be p r op er f o r m e t o r e fe r t he C ha i r p e rs o n t o a s u b m iss i on t ha t

M r Ap l en i h as pu t up a nd h i s ex p la n a t i on ab o u t yo ur c o r r es p on d e nc e .

I f I m a y j us t r e fe r t he C ha i r pe rs on t o p a ge 1 – i t i s a l e t t e r – i t i s a

su b m iss io n b u t f r a m e d in th e f o r m o f a l e t t e r a d dr ess e d t o t he

Ch a i r pe r so n – t o th e Sec re ta ry o f t h e C o m m is s i on . Pa g e 1 o f t h a t . Yo u

jus t h av e t o – r i gh t – r i g h t a t th e b e g i n n i n g . 10

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Pa g e 1 ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . Ar e y ou o n p a ge 1 ?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : As y ou c a n s e e i t i s a d dr ess e d

t o M r Pe d l a r w ho is th e Ac t i ng Se c r e ta ry o f th e C o m m is s i o n . I n

pa ra gr a ph 4 o f t ha t c o u l d y ou ju s t re a d b r i e f l y w ha t he sa ys th e r e ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: “ I w i s h to s t a te up f r o n t t ha t I d o

no t k n ow, h av e ne ver m e t , r ec e i ve d a ny

co r r es p on d e nc e o r ev er s p ok e n to a ny G u p ta f a m i l y

m e m b er o f as s oc i a tes . ” 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s an d th e n i n p a r ag ra p h 8 h e

de a ls w i t h t h e c o r r es p on d en ce t h e r e . Th a t we h av e d e a l t – w e ha ve

de a l t w i t h y o ur e m a i l s …

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: hu h- u h .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T ho se d a te d t h e 4 t h a n d

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6 Sep te m b er. W h a t d o es h e s ay a bo u t h i m no t r ec e i v i ng t h os e e m a i l s?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Yo u w an t m e t o r ea d t ha t?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , y es .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: O ka y.

“ I n t h is c as e a cc or d i n g t o th e in f o r m a t i o n p ro v i d ed

t o m e by t h e d ep ar tm e n t i n p a r t i cu l a r f r o m th e D G s

O f f i c e th e e m a i l s da te d th e 4 t h a n d

6 Sep te m b er 20 1 3 w er e n ev er r ec e iv e d . Bas e d on

t h is re sp o ns e I h av e r eq u es ted a c on f i r m a t i on f ro m

the De p ar tm e n t ’s I n fo r m a t i o n Tec hn o lo g y Sec t io n 10

wh ic h i nd ic a te s t ha t t h ey h av e r ev i ew e d m y e m a i l

acc o un t a n d c o u l d n o t f i n d t he m e n t i on e d e m a i ls .

I n t h is c as e I w is h to r e fe r t he a t t e n t i on o f t he

Co m m i s s i on t o Ann ex ur e 4 a t t ac he d her e i n f o r e as e

o f re fe r e nc e . T h er e fo re t h e o n l y e m a i l wh ic h m y

t he n o f f i ce re c e iv e d wa s t ha t o f 9 Oc tob er 20 1 8 an d

t he v ie w o f t he o f f i c e wa s t h a t t he m a t t e r wa s

a l r e ad y c lo se d s i nc e t he re p or t by t he I n s pe c to r a te

wa s a l re a dy c on c l u de d . In th is r eg ar d I w is h t o

s t a te t h a t th e sa i d e m a i l o f 9 Oc to be r 20 1 8 wa s 20

ne ve r b r o ug h t to m y per so n a l a t t e n t i o n . ”

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , t ha nk y o u . T h en i n

su m m a ry o f y o ur ev i de nc e a b ou t th es e e m p l oy e es w h o h ad t he se v is as

wh ic h wo u ld b e l e ga l l y o b ta i ne d in a m a nn er in f ac t co n f i r m e d so m e

wh o h av e l e f t t h e c o u n t ry. Do y o u kn o w o f a ny o f t he se e m p l oy e es w h o

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ar e s t i l l w i t h i n t h e c ou n t ry ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: N o , n o t a wa re .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s , th a nk y ou .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u g o t a c ha nc e t o r ea d Mr Ap l en i ’s do cu m e n ta t i on

in r e gar d t o w h a t t he D ep ar tm e n t o f H o m e A f f a i r s d i d , i s t ha t r ig h t?

M R R A J ESH SU N D A RA M : I h av e n o t re ad t h e wh o l e t h i n g , I h av e

go n e t h r o ug h t he s u m m a ry, th e r e l ev a n t p o r t i o ns o f t h a t .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s . We l l d i d y o u co m e ac r os s an y th in g th a t su g g es t

t ha t t he in ve s t i ga t io n t ha t t he D ep ar tm e n t o f H o m e A f f a i r s d i d e n ta i le d

do i ng s o m e th i ng a g a i ns t o r a b ou t t h os e o the r th a n t he e m p l oy e es o th e r 10

t ha n th e e m p l oy e es f r o m In d i a w h o m ay h a ve f ac i l i t a te d t he b r ea k i n g o f

t he la w i n r e gar d t o t h e i r e m p lo y m e nt? D id y o u c o m e a c r oss a ny th i ng

t ha t su g g es te d t h a t th e D e pa r tm e n t h a d do ne s o m e th i ng a b o u t th is , h ad

re por te d i t t o t h e r e l ev a n t a u th or i t i es o r De p ar tm e n t o f L ab o ur o r th e

Po l ic e o r t h e N a t i on a l P r os ec u t i ng Au th or i ty, d i d y ou c o m e ac r oss

an y th in g l i k e th a t?

M R RA J ESH SU N D AR A M : I n m y r ea d in g I ’ v e se e n t h ey ’ ve t a lk e d

ab o u t t h e e m p l oy ee s b u t wh a t a c t i on th ey ’v e ta ke n ag a in s t t he

e m p l oy er fo r v io la t in g t h e v is a n or m s is s o m e th i ng th a t I d o n o t k n ow.

T he y d o ac ce p t th a t t he r e w er e p e op l e w o rk i ng o n wo rk , o n v is i t v i sa s 20

an d b us i n es s v i sa s he re , b u t th a t pu re ly i s a v i o l a t i o n o f t h e la w, bu t I

wo u ld a ls o l i k e t o s ay t h a t y o u k n o w as a wh is t le b l o w er i n t h i s m a t t e r

t he fa c t t ha t I w as ne ve r c o n ta c te d t o ge t in f o r m a t i o n b ec a us e I h a d a l l

t he in f o r m a t io n ab o u t t h es e p e op l e , AN N 7 w o u l d s ay t ha t t he y w er e

he re f o r t r a in in g o r f o r b us in es s m e e t i ng s , bu t t h e fa c t th a t t he y wer e

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no t I wa s n o t co n su l te d , a n d I a m a l so s u r p r i se d th a t y o u h av e a

ne ws ro o m fu l l o f p eo p l e w h o a r e w ork i n g w i t h t h e m , n o ne o f t ho se

e m p l oy e es a t AN N 7 w er e a ls o c on tac ted du r i ng th is i nv es t i g a t i o n , s o I

f i n d t h a t a l i t t l e p uz z l in g .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yes , t h e r e a re n o s ta te m e n ts f r o m th os e e m p lo ye es

wh e the r t h ey j us t a t t e nd e d m e et i ng s o r th ey ac tua l l y w ork e d o r

an y th in g l i k e th a t .

M R R A J ESH SU N D AR A M : A l s o t h e pe o p l e wh o w ork e d i n th e

ne ws ro o m , f o r i ns ta nc e Vi s hn u Sh an ka r w as th e r e c le a r in g s c r i p ts , s o

yo u c an as k an y o f t he j ou r n a l i s ts w ho we re w ork i ng a t th a t t i m e 10

wh e the r h e w as w ork in g o r he w as t h e r e a t te n d i ng m e e t i ng s . T he re

wo u ld b e m u l t i p l e pe o p l e i n t he n e ws r o o m , th ey w o u l d s ay t h a t h e w as

m a k i ng r u n - do w ns , he w as wor k i n g i n a s h i f t t h e r e , yo u k n ow i f yo u g i ve

h i m th e m or n i n g sh i f t h e w o u l d c o m e i n t he m or n in g s h i f t o r e ve n in g

sh i f t , h e wa s wo rk i n g t he r e i n th e n e ws r o o m , a nd t h e r e a r e do ze ns o f

w i t ne ss es to th a t , n o ne o f w ho m I t h i nk w er e c on tac ted as p er m y

re ad in g o f th is . I t wa s a n in ve s t i ga t io n t h a t w as co n d uc te d ( in d is t i nc t )

o f n a tu ra l j us t i c e n o t fo l l o w ed b ec au se yo u k no w i f I ’ m t h e c o m p l a i n a n t

an d I ’ m t h e w h i s t l eb lo w er I s h ou l d h av e be e n c o n tac te d to g iv e m or e

de ta i l s , I w as a l w ays w i l l i n g to d o t ha t , a nd i t w as m e w h o we n t ou t o f 20

t he w ay t o w r i t e n e ws w h i le I w as a l so do i ng o the r w ork i n In d i a , t o

pe rs ua d e t h e m to do t h is in ve s t i ga t io n a n d w h en I co m e h er e t o So u th

A f r i c a a n d i t w as t h e f i r s t t i m e I k n o w tha t t he r e ’s b e e n a n in ve s t i ga t io n

an d th es e a r e t h e d e ta i l s .

C HA IR PER SO N : H m m , o k ay, th a nk y o u .

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A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T ha nk y o u M r Ch a i r. T h er e ’s

jus t so m e th i n g th a t w e d i d n ’ t d e a l w i t h y es te rd ay t h a t r e la tes t o h o w

AN N 7 w as a l lo ca te d t h e s l o t b y M u l t iC h o ic e .


A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: C ou l d y o u j us t b r ie f l y ju s t te l l

t he C ha i r pe r so n as to h ow tha t h ap p en e d?

M R RA J ESH SU N D A RA M : We l l th ey we re v e r y a da m a n t a b o u t a

pa r t i c u l a r n u m b er, n o w I h av e wr i t t en t h a t n u m b er in t h e b o ok an d I

ne e d t o r e fe r t o th a t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . M ay b e i f I c ou l d j us t r e fe r 10

t he w i t n ess i ns t ru m e n t to p ag e 6 6 o f yo ur bo ok .

C HA IR PER SO N : 6 6 ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s t ha nk yo u .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I w i l l j us t q u i c k ly r e fe r .

Ye s . J a , t he s lo t t h a t t h ey w a n te d w as 4 0 4 be ca us e t h a t w a s a

p r i m e s l o t t ha t w as b e tw e en tw o ex i s t i n g ne ws s ta t io ns , a n d th e G u p ta

b r o th e rs f ea re d th a t D ST V w as s o m e h o w i n i m i ca l t o t he m a n d th ey

wo u ld g iv e t h e m a s l o t w h i ch is n o t w i t h th e ne w s c ha n ne ls b u t

so m e w he re e ls e w h er e i t w o u l d be d i f f i c u l t f o r pe o p l e t o f i n d i t a nd t h a t

wo u ld a ff ec t th e i r r a t i n gs , so – bu t I f ou n d D ST V to b e ex t r e m e ly 20

pr o fes s i o na l i n t he i r c on d uc t , t h ey w o u l d w a n t t ec hn ic a l de ta i l s , t h ey

wo u ld wa n t t o kn o w yo u n o w w he th er AN N7 ha s ac tua l l y s t a r t ed a 2 4

ho ur d ry ru n w h ic h is n ev er th e c as e b e fo re th e s ta t i on ac tu a l l y

la u nc he d . AN N 7 w e n t 2 4 /7 o n b ro a dc a s t t h e d ay i t wa s la u nc he d .

Be fo r e t ha t t h ey w o u l d d o a f e w ho ur s a nd th e n w i n d i t up be ca us e

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no n e o f th e e qu ip m e n t o r a l l o f th e e qu i p m e n t th a t w as r e qu i r ed f o r a

24 h o ur o per a t i o n h ad n o t c o m e i n . L ik e I s a id b e fo re e ve n t h e s tud io

ro bo t ic c a m er as c a m e in t h e l as t m in u te an d we re b e i n g i ns ta l l e d on

t he da y o f t he la u nc h .

So t he r e w as a w h o l e l o t o f l y i n g w h ic h w e we re r e qu i r e d t o do

wh e n we w en t t o t h e D ST V m e e t i n gs y o u k n ow, s o es pe c i a l l y M r Y P

S i ng h w h o wa s t he te ch n ic a l , h e w a s l o ok i n g a t t he te ch n ic a l

ins ta l l a t i on a nd t he i n teg ra t io n a t t ha t t i m e h e w o u l d b e ask e d t o g o to

t ho se m e e t in gs a n d w i t h a s t r a i g h t fa ce h e wo u ld h av e t o te l l t h e m l ie s

ab o u t h o w w e w er e a t a v e ry a dv an ce d s tag e a nd t h a t w e w er e a l r ea dy 10

do i ng 2 4 h ou r n e ws b u l l e t i ns an d a l l o f th a t .

A ls o I wa s t o l d o n m u l t i p le occ as io ns t ha t t h ey w o u l d u se th e

P re s i de n t ’s o ff i c e to p r ess ur e D ST V to g iv e th e m th e s l o t t h a t t he y

wa n ted wh ic h is 40 4 , a n d t h i s i s s o m e th i ng t ha t I w as t o ld r e pe a te d ly

an d we ha d m u l t ip l e m e e t in gs w i t h D ST V a t t he i r o f f i c e a n d a t e ver y

t i m e t h e l ev e l o f p r o gr ess o r y o u k no w th e i ns ta l la t io n te ch n o l o gy th e

in fo r m a t i o n t h a t we w ere g iv i ng th e m w as a l l w r o ng an d w e w er e , m a ny,

m a ny da ys , m a ny we ek s b eh i nd sc he d u l e .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s th a nk yo u , t h en i f y ou m ay

t he n g o ba ck to o u r s t a te m e n t , yo u ha ve d ea l t w i th H o m e A f f a i r s . 20


A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : And a t p a r a gra p h 2 7 y o u de a l

w i t h c e r t a i n pa y m en ts th a t we re m a d e , c a n y o u j us t t e l l th e C ha i r pe rs on

wh a t i s i t t h a t yo u w a n t to c o nv ey i n p a r ag ra p h 2 7 a nd 2 8 p le a se , a t

pa g e 4 o f y our s t a te m e nt .

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C HA IR PER SO N : D i d yo u s ay p ara gr a ph 2 7 a n d 2 8 ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th a t ’s co r r ec t Mr Ch a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : O f h is s t a te m e n t?

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: O f h is , ye s , t ha nk y o u p a ge 4 .

Ha ve yo u fo u nd i t?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Pa ge 2 7?

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , w ha t a re y o u sa y i n g in

t ho se pa ra gr a ph s?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: We l l y o u k no w th a t m an y o f t he ex p en se s

we re p a i d i n c as h in ( i nd is t i nc t ) i n I n d i a , f o r i ns tan ce t h e p er so n wh o 10

de s i g ne d an d fa b r ic a te d th e s e t wa s p a i d i n I n d i a n R u pe es by M r La x mi

G o e l , I w as a w i t n ess t o t ha t . A ls o w a ds i f t ho us a nd R u p ee n o te s we re

ha n d ed o u t t o t he p ers o n w h o d i d t h e l o ok an d f ee l o f t h e s ta t io n , wh ic h

is b as i ca l l y t he g r ap h i cs a n d t he g ra p h i c t e m p la tes fo r t he o n- sc r e en

g r ap h i cs t h a t wer e t h e r e . H e wa s pa i d i n ca sh i n f r o n t o f m e , in D e lh i

an d a ls o y ou k n ow go i ng ba ck t o th e p r ev i ou s p o i n t w h ere he s a id th a t

a lo t o f e m p l oy ee s t ha t w er e n o t pa i d , t he y we re wor k i n g gr a t is o n

bu s i n ess v i sa s , t ha t i s no t t ru e b ec a us e m o s t o f th os e p e op l e be fo r e

t he y c a m e h er e wer e p a i d in c as h by M r L ax m i G o e l i n In d ia , t h e i r f i r s t

m o n th ’s s a l a r y an d t h a t ’s w hy th ey ca m e h ere s o t h e re wo u ld b e n o 20

rec or ds o f th e m h av in g a ny ba nk i ng t r a n sac t io ns b e tw e e n AN N 7 an d

t he m h er e b ec a us e t h ey w ere b e i ng p a i d c as h i n I n d i a .

A ls o t h e r e w er e m an y o f th e e m p l oy ee s l i ke f o r i ns tan ce t he

la b our e r s w ho c a m e he re to c o ns t r uc t t h e s tu d i o , a ls o t h e

ho us ek e e p i ng , t h e Ba l i Na t io n a l w as w ork in g t he r e , t he y wer e a l l pa i d

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i n c as h i n In d ia .

So t h i s i s s o m e th i n g th a t I kn o w i s a c le a r v i o l a t i o n o f th e t ax

la ws i n I n d i a . M y un d ers ta nd in g o f th e t ax la ws i n In d i a i s t ha t i f y ou ’ r e

pa y i n g a ny th i n g ab ov e 5 00 0 R up e es i t s ho u ld b e do n e e i t he r t h r o ug h

an e l ec t r o n ic t r a ns fe r o r th ro u gh a ch e qu e , y ou c a nn o t h av e c as h

pa y m e nts a n d th is i s s o m e th i n g th a t wa s h ap p e n i ng t h e r e w i th t h e

sa nc t i o n o f th e ( in d i s t i nc t ) . Mr La x m i G oe l w as g i v i n g t h i s c as h yo u

kn ow a t h i s o f f i c e a nd t h i s wa s s o m e th i ng t ha t t he G u p ta b ro th e rs h e re

kn ew, w h i c h Na ze e m H ow a k ne w a n d t h ey w er e ok ay w i t h , be ca us e

t he se e m p l oy e es we re c o m i n g f r o m In d i a a nd yo u k no w on r ec or ds h er e 10

i t w o u l d b e l i ke n o b a nk in g t r a ns ac t i o ns be tw ee n AN N 7 a n d th e m b u t

t he y wer e ac tu a l l y b e i n g pa id i n I nd i a fo r t he w or k th a t t h ey w er e do in g

he re .


M R RA J ESH SU N D A RA M : So t h is a g a i n is s o m e th i ng th a t I d i d n o t

ap pr ov e o f a t t h a t p o i n t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes th a nk y o u . M r C h a i r m an

t ha t c on c l u de s t he ev id e nc e o n t h e s ta te m e n ts o f th e w i tn e ss , i f I m ay

jus t a t t h is po i n t a ddr es s t h e C ha i r pe r so n o n t h e a f f i d av i t s o f Mr

W i l l i a m s w h ic h h e s u b m i t t e d y es te r da y, w h ic h is t he ex h ib i ts wh ic h a r e 20

p l ac e d b e fo re t he C ha i r pe rs on t h is m o rn i n g .

C HA IR PER SO N : M a yb e b e fo r e y o u d o t h a t M r Su n d ar a m y ou m ay o r

m a y no t h av e c ov er ed th is b u t I j us t w an t to c he ck t h a t y o u h av e

cov er e d i t , i n p a r ag ra p h 2 3 o f y o ur s ta te m e n t , pa g e t h r e e t he r e o f y o u

on e , tw o , t h r e e , fo u r , f i ve , s i x , w h a t ap p e ars t o b e s u b- par a gr ap hs u p

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t o se ve n , i n p a r a gr ap h f i ve , no , i n pa ra gr a ph f ou r y ou s ay :

“A tu l G up ta a l so t o ld m e t h a t a l a rg e nu m b er o f t h es e

e m p l oy e es w o u l d b e b r o ug h t in on to u r is t v i sa s an d m a de to

wo rk f o r a fe w m o n ths . I f t he y a re n o t f ou n d s u i t a b l e t he y

co u l d be d is m is se d a nd s en t b ack . Wo r k p e r m i ts w o u l d be

iss ue d la te r to t ho se w ho p r ov e d t h e i r w or th . ”

Par a gr ap h f i v e y o u s ay :

“W h en I q ue s t i on e d A tu l G up ta ab o u t t h e l e ga l i ty o f m ak in g

pe o p l e wo rk on t ou r is t v is as h e s a i d . . . ” a n d t h e n y ou q uo te : “ I

ha ve th e g ov er n m e n t in m y p ock e t , yo u d o n ’ t w or r y a bo u t w h a t 10

i s l eg a l a n d w h a t i s i l l e ga l . ”

D i d Mr A tu l G u p ta sa y t h a t?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s h e d i d .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d y o u a re s u r e a b o u t t ha t?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Abs o l u te ly, I a m ye s .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yes . An d t h e n i n yo u r b o ok a t pa g e 46 y ou t a lk

ab o u t , y o u wr i t e a b ou t d is cu ss i o ns r e l a t i ng to t he Wa te rk lo o f l an d i n g

inc i de n t .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: H m m .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d y o u s ay, a n d I w i l l r e ad q u i t e a b i t : 20

“A tu l s p en t a l o t o f t i m e ju s t i fy in g t h e Wa te rk l o o f la n d i ng

inc i de n t wh ic h ha p p en e d j us t d ays b e fo r e ou r a r r i v a l a t t h i s

f i r s t m e e t in g . ”

An d th e n yo u qu o te a n d I t h i nk y o u a re su gg es t in g t ha t th is i s wh a t

A tu l , M r A tu l Gu p ta s a i d :

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“O ur fa m i ly i s c l os e t o Pr es id e n t Z u m a , w e h av e n ev er h i dd e n

i t . We a r e a po w er fu l fa m i ly an d I a m s ur e a l l t h e h yp e a ro u nd

t h is la n d i n g w i l l a ls o pa ss w i t h t i m e . We la n d a t a i r f o r ce

s ta t i o ns i n I n d i a a l l t he t i m e , s o wh a t i s w r on g w i t h l an d i n g o ur

gu es t s a t an a i r f o rc e b as e he re w i th a l l du e c l e a r an ce s . We

a r e b e i n g t a r g e te d . ”

An d t h e n t h e l as t p a r a gr ap h o f t ha t pa g e y ou q uo te h i m as ha v i n g s a i d :

”P re s i d en t Z u m a kn o ws o ur fa m i ly w e l l a n d w e h av e d ee p

bo n ds w i t h h is f a m i ly. We ha ve e no u gh in f lu e nc e i n th e

go ve rn m e n t to c le a r ou r na m e a nd i t i s n o t j us t P r es id e n t 10

Z u m a , we h av e c l os e l in ks w i t h a l l s e n i o r AN C le a de rs . We

a r e ( in d i s t i nc t ) , w e a r e I nd ia n Je w s , we do n o t ke e p a l l ou r

eg gs in on e b as ke t . W h o ev er b ec o m es Pr es id e n t o f So u th

A f r i c a i n t h e ye ars t o co m e I c an ass ur e y ou he w i l l be ou r

f r i e n d . ”

D i d Mr A tu l G u p ta sa y w h a t yo u s ay he s a i d i n t h is p a g e?

“

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M : Oh ye s h e s a i d th es e th i ng s m u l t ip le t i m es

yo u kn o w b ec a us e i m m e d i a te l y a f t e r we h a d a r r i v e d h ere , th a t w as

a r ou n d th e t i m e w he n t h e Wa te rk lo o f in c i d en t t h en h a pp e n ed a n d s o m e 20

o f t he p eo p l e w h o h a d co m e f r o m Ind ia we re a l i t t l e wor r i ed w he th er

t he y t o ok a wr o ng d ec is i o n a n d t h is w as i n s o m e s en se s , a l t h o ug h n o t

d i r ec t ly s a i d by h i m , b u t t h is – i n so m e te r m s t o re as su re t he pe o p l e

wh o c a m e f r o m In d i a th a t l o ok y ou do n ’ t ne e d t o wor ry, i t w o u l d s ee m

l i k e yo u k no w w h en y o u r e ad i n t h e m e d i a t h a t we a re i n a l o t o f

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t r ou b le , b u t w e a r e n o t , w e ’v e go t y ou k n ow g re a t f r i en ds h ip w i th th e

P re s i de n t , a n d h e s a id m u l t i p l e t i m e s t h a t we ’v e g o t th e go ve rn m e n t i n

ou r po ck e t . N o w tha t ’s s o m e th i ng th a t h e w o u l d ke e p r e pe a t in g , l i k e i f

I a sk e d h i m ab o u t th e v is a v i o la t io ns h e wo u ld sa y o h we ’v e g o t th e

go ve rn m e n t in o u r p ock e ts , y o u do n ’ t w or ry a b ou t w ha t ’s l eg a l a n d

wh a t ’s n o t l e ga l , s o t h i s i s s o m e th i n g th a t he w o u l d ke e p r e pe a t i n g po s t

t he Wa te rk lo o f in c i d en t , es p ec ia l l y i f h e f o un d s o m eb o dy a l i t t l e wo r r i e d

ab o u t y o u kn o w a l l t h e m e d i a , t h e n eg a t i v e m e d ia th a t t h e G u p tas we re

ge t t in g y o u kn o w.

C HA IR PER SO N : M m m , m m m . 10

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: S or ry M r Ch a i r m a n i t ha s b e en

b r ou g h t t o m y a t te n t i o n th a t i t i s q ua r te r p as t e l ev en .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s m ay be l e t ’s j us t f i n ish on e o r two o th e rs th a t I

wa n t to ch ec k w i t h M r Su n d ar a m .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : O k ay.

C HA IR PER SO N : I t h in k y o u d i d co ver t h i s y es te r da y i n re g ar d to

su gg es t io ns o f p re se n te rs , y ou sa y a t p a g e 10 8 o f y o ur bo ok :

“N az ee m a n d A tu l a ls o h a d a l i s t o f p r es en te rs s e n t b y

P re s i de n t Zu m a , th is i nc lu d e d f o r m er G ov er n m en t

sp ok es pe rs on J i m m y M a ny i . ” 20

Di d y ou , i s th a t t ru e ?

M R R A J ESH SU N D AR A M : T h a t i s t r u e yes . I w an t t o ad d t ha t yo u

kn ow th i s w as s o m e th i n g t h a t w as r ec o m m e n de d by Pr es id e n t Zu m a in

on e o f t h e m e e t i ng s , y o u k n ow w h e n t he y we re a sk ed a b o u t p re se n te rs

I v e ry d is t i nc t l y r e m e m b er P re s i de n t Z u m a te l l i n g N az e e m th a t yo u

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kn ow he th i nks J i m m y M a n y i w o u l d b e a g o od p re se n te r a nd th a t h e

sh ou l d b e c on s i d e re d .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s . We w i l l t ak e th e te a a d jo u r n m e n t a n d j us t ha ve

a l oo k a t on e o r tw o th i ng s t h a t I ju s t w a n t t o c h eck wh e the r – do yo u

co n f i r m t h a t?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , t ha nk y o u .

C HA IR PER SO N : We w i l l t ak e t he te a a d j ou rn m e n t n ow, a n d r es u m e a t

twe n ty f i ve t o tw e l ve .


IN Q UIRY AD J O U RN S 10

IN Q UIRY R ESU M E S

C HA IR PER SO N : I j us t w an t t o d r aw – to ch e ck s o m e th i n g . M r

Su n dar a m . I a m s or r y. I n – a t pa g e 8 2 o f yo ur b o ok yo u – yo u s ay t he

f o l l o w i n g so m e w h ere i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e p ag e l i ke L ax m i I h op e I

p r on o un ce d th e na m e co r r ec t ly.


C HA IR PER SO N : O k ay. He I t h i nk t ha t i s A tu l – M r A tu l G up ta be ca us e

ev en t he p r ev io us se n te n ce y o u t a lk a b o u t h i m .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s Ch a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u s ay : 20

“L i ke L ax m i h e b l a m ed t h e m e d ia f o r p la y in g u p th e

inc i de n t . He c la i m e d h i s f a m i ly ha d th e r e q u i r e d

pe r m iss io n to le n d t h e j e t a nd i n th e s a m e b re a th h e

m e n t i o ne d th e p r ox i m i ty h is fa m i ly en j oy ed w i t h

P re s i de n t Z u m a a n d h is fa m i ly. ”

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An d th e n y ou q uo te a n d y ou a t t r i b u te t h is t o M r A tu l G u p ta an d I g u ess

I w i l l se e i n yo ur s u pp le m e n ta ry a f f i d av i t w h ic h c o d es y ou r eg ar d a s

p r op er c od e s o r w h er e yo u m ea n t t o j us t m ak e t h e p o i n t a nd d i d n o t

m e a n t o s ay t ha t i s w h a t t h e p ers o n s a i d w or d f o r wo rd .


C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u , yo u s ay an d y o u q u o te an d y o u s ay :

“A tu l Gu p ta s a i d Pr es i de n t Z u m a is o n ou r s i de . H e

kn ow s our f a m i ly an d w e h e lp e d h i m w h en h e wa s

do w n a n d o u t . H e w i l l he lp us t h r ou g h t h is a s w e l l .

Yo u kn o w top m i n is t e rs o f t h e Z u m a c a b i n e t a t t e nd e d 10

t he w or d i n g . T h i s i s a d i re c t en d ors e m en t f o r u s .

T he pe rs on n e l a g a i ns t w h o m a c t i on ha s be e n t ak e n

w i l l be re in s ta te d ve ry s o on . We a r e a n i n f l u en t ia l

f a m i ly h e re a nd n o o n e ca n po in t f i n g ers a t us . ”

A tu l b oa s te d . I d i d no t r ea d t h is t o y ou b e fo r e d id I ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: N o .

C HA IR PER SO N : I d i d n o t r ea d th is be fo r e ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : N o y o u d id n o t M r C h a i r p e rs o n .

C HA IR PER SO N : O h ok ay. N o w d id M r A tu l G u p ta sa y t h i s t o y o u?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s he d i d . 20

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u h av e n o do u b t a b ou t i t ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: N o h e s a i d t h is .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Abs o l u te ly.

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u h av e go t i t i n q u o tes c o u l d i t be t ha t i t i s n o t

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wo rd f o r w or d b u t h e m a d e t h es e p o i n ts o r i s i t w ha t he s a i d w or d fo r

wo rd ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h is i s n o t w or d t o wo rd .


M R RA J ESH SU N D A RA M : Bu t th is i s s o m e th i n g t ha t he ha s t o l d m e

m a ny t i m e s .


M R R A J ESH SU N D A RA M : O r w e l l t h e i n te r ac t io ns o ver t h e m o n th s

t ha t I w or k i ng t he re .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yes . We l l yo u se e t h e r e – t h e r e a re tw o p ar ts i n t h is 10

pa ss ag e t h a t a t t r ac t m y a t t en t io n . Th e o n e i s t ha t ac co rd in g t o yo u M r

A tu l G u p ta s a i d t ha t P r es id e n t Z u m a is o n ou r s id e h e k no ws o ur f a m i l y

an d we h e l p ed h i m w h en h e w as d ow n an d ou t . H e w i l l he l p us t h r ou g h

– t h r o ug h t h is a s w e l l . N ow wh a t a t t r ac ts m e to t ha t i s t h a t e a r l ie r t h i s

ye ar o n e o f t he w i t n ess es w h o h av e g iv e n ev i d e nc e b e fo re m e M r F i k i le

M b a l u la he i s a m e m b er I be l i ev e o f th e Na t io n a l Exe cu t iv e C o m m i t t ee

o f t he r u l i n g p ar ty t h e AN C a nd a t d i f f e r en t t i m es h as be e n M i n i s t e r a n d

De p u ty M in is t e r i n Pr es id e n t Z u m a ’s go v er n m en t . H e i s a – h e h as

be e n a p po in te d a t M i n is te r r ec e n t ly as w e l l . W he n h e g av e e v i d en ce

be fo r e m e o ne o f t he th i ng s h e sa id w as t ha t i n a c e r t a i n N EC m e e t i n g 20

o f t he AN C th e q ue s t i on o f t he p r ox i m i t y o f P re s i d en t Zu m a to t h e

G u p ta fa m i ly w as r a i se d an d t h e r e w as c on ce rn th a t th a t f r i en ds h ip o r

a l le g ed f r i e nd sh ip b e twe e n t he m w a s d a m ag i ng t h e i m a g e o f t he r u l i n g

pa r t y a n d th e i m a ge o f t he g ov er n m en t . An d Mr M b a lu l a s a i d M r

Z u m a ’s r es p o ns e e i th e r o n t ha t o cc as i o n o r o n o th e r oc ca s i o ns an d

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m a yb e i t i s n o t b u t M r M b a b u l a m ay b e i t i s a n o th er w i t ne ss I a m n o t

su r e no w o r m a y be i t wa s Mr R a m a t lh o d i I c a n no t r e m e m b er b u t on e o f

t he – on e o f t h e w i t n ess es s a i d w ho a t t e n de d w h o w as a N EC m e m b er

sa i d M r Z u m a w h en as ke d w hy h e wa s n o t te r m i n a t i n g h is f r i en ds h ip

w i t h t h e Gu p ta f a m i l y h e s a i d th a t th a t f a m i l y h a d h e l p ed h i s c h i l d r e n

wh e n n o bo dy e ls e c ou ld he l p t he m . I t h i nk i n t e r m s o f e m p l oy m e n t . So

I j us t f i n d i t i n t e r es t in g th a t y o u sa y t h a t M r A tu l Gu p ta sa i d P r es id e n t

Z u m a is o n o ur s i de he k no ws o ur fa m i ly a nd we h e lp e d h i m w he n h e

wa s d ow n a nd o u t . H e w i l l he lp u s t h r ou g h t h is a s w e l l . So I – th a t i s

on e o f th in gs t h a t a t t r ac ted m e . T h e se co nd o n e is t h a t y ou sa y Mr A tu l 10

G u pta s a i d t h e p ers on n e l ag a i ns t wh o m a c t io n h as be e n t ak en w i l l b e

re i ns ta te d v e ry so o n . N ow y o u m us t j us t t e l l m e w h a t p e rs o nn e l w er e –

wa s h e t a l k i n g a bo u t t h e r e? I th i nk t h i s wa s in t he c o n tex t o f t he

Wa te rk l oo f l a n d i ng i f I u nd ers ta nd w ha t y o u s ay i n th e b o ok ?


C HA IR PER SO N : W h a t w as h e – w ha t w a s Mr A tu l G up ta t a lk i ng a b ou t

wh e n h e sa id th e p er so n ne l a ga i ns t w ho m ac t i o n h as b e en ta ke n w i l l b e

re i ns ta te d v e ry s o o n . We a re an in f lu e n t i a l fa m i ly he r e an d n o on e w i l l

– c an po i n t f in g ers a t us .

M R R A J ESH SU N D AR A M : We l l t h is w a s a r o un d t he t i m e wh e n th e 20

Wa terk l oo f i nc i de n t w as be i ng in ve s t i ga ted an d th e r e w er e a f e w

o f f i c i a ls wh o h a d b ee n – th e r e w as s o m e ac t i o n t ha t wa s t ak en ag a in s t

t he m a n d th ey w er e i f I r e m e m b er c o r r ec t l y w er e e i t he r d is m iss e d o r

sus p en d e d f ro m s erv ic e . So y ou kn o w s o t h is w as t he t i m e a n d a l o t o f

t he pe o p l e wh o ha d c o m e f r o m Ind ia w er e ge t t in g a l i t t l e an x i o us a b o u t

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t he Wa te rk l oo f a n d i f y ou k n ow the k i nd o f i m p ac t i t wo u ld ha ve on t he

f a m i ly. So h e wo u ld b oa s t a nd t e l l u s on m u l t i p l e o cc as io ns t ha t

wh o ev er – y o u k no w – o f c our se i n th e s ho r t t e r m th e w ou ld h av e to

sh ow tha t t he r e wa s so m e ac t io n t h a t w as ta ke n th a t so m e h ea d s h av e

ro l l ed . Bu t he s a id t h os e d o no t wo r ry ab o u t t h e m the y w i l l b e a l l

r e i ns ta te d . T ha t yo u kn o w h e w i l l us e w h a te ver i n f l u en ce is t h e r e t ha t

an yb o dy wh o he l pe d h i m w i l l n o t f ac e a ny co ns eq u e nc es o f t he i r ac t i o n

an d t h a t t he y w ou ld be r e i ns ta te d a t a b e t t e r p os i t io n a t a fu tu r e d a te .

No w I wo u l d no t kn o w w h e th er t ha t ha p p en ed b u t t h a t i s s o m e th i n g t h a t

he w ou l d t a lk ab o u t . T h a t h e wo u ld e ns ur e t h a t a ny b od y w h o f a ce d 10

ac t i o n b ec a us e t h ey he l pe d th e G u p ta f a m i ly d u r i n g th e Wa te rk lo o f

inc i de n t w i l l no t – y ou k n o w th ey m ay h av e – b e fa c i ng co ns e qu e nc es in

t he s hor t t e r m b u t i n t h e l o ng te r m th a t w i l l b e h a pp y th ey d i d i t

be ca us e t h ey w o u l d b e r e w ard e d f o r i t w i t h m u ch h i gh er p os i t i o ns a n d

yo u k no w the f a m i ly w o u l d h e l p t he m . U s e t h e i r i n f l ue nc e to g e t t h e m

ou t o f w h a tev er p un i t i v e ac t i o n h as be e n t ak en a ga i ns t t h e m .

C HA IR PER SO N : So t h is wa s i n 2 0 14 ? Yo u we re in So u th A f r i ca in

20 1 4 ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: N o – 20 1 3 .

C HA IR PER SO N : 2 01 3 ? 20


C HA IR PER SO N : O ka y w e l l I – th e – Ms N or m a n .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s M r C h a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : T h os e in ve s t i ga t in g t he is su e o f t he Wa te rk lo o f

la n d i ng .

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s M r C h a i r m a n

C HA IR PER SO N : N ee d to c h eck . I s e e m to re m e m b e r t h a t in t he m e d i a

t he r e w er e s ug g es t i o ns t ha t so m e b o dy o r ce r t a i n pe o p l e wh o w er e s a i d

t o h av e be e n b l a m e d f o r t h e Wa te rk lo o f l a nd i ng w er e p ro m o te d o r w er e

g iv e n c e r ta i n p os i t i on s t h a t d id n o t se e m to b e i n l in e w i t h d is ap pr ov i ng

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : D i sa pp ro v i ng t h e ac t io n .

C HA IR PER SO N : T h e i r a l l e ge d r o l e .


C HA IR PER SO N : So i t w i l l be i m p or ta n t f o r th e co m m i s s i on

inv es t i ga to rs to ha ve a l oo k a nd s e e a l s o w he th er s uc h – i f w h e th er 10

t he r e we re a ny p ro m o t io ns o r r e i ns ta te m e n ts s uc h as I t a l ke d ab o u t .


C HA IR PER SO N : H er e wh ic h M r Sun d ar a m is t a l k i ng a b ou t a nd w he n

t he y h ap p e ne d .


C HA IR PER SO N : F o r e xa m p l e we kn o w wh ich – w h i ch m o n ths he w as i n

So u th A f r i ca wh e n – i f h is e v i de nc e is t ru e t ha t Mr A tu l G u p ta s a i d t h is

we n e e d to c he ck w he th er in f ac t s o m e th in g a l o ng t h os e l i ne s s e e m s to

ha ve h ap p en e d .

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . T h a nk y ou M r C ha i r w e 20

ha ve n o te d .

C HA IR PER SO N : O ka y.


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h an k y ou .

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T ha nk y o u v e ry m uc h . T h a nk

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yo u . M r C h a i r m a n t h e o ne th in g I fo r g o t t o d o wa s t o ha n d u p – w as t o

ask t ha t t he b oo k b e g iv e n a n Ex h ib i t n u m be r?

C HA IR PER SO N : O h y es .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: M i gh t I ask t h a t i t be m ark e d

Exh i b i t C C 1 [ f ] .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s t ha nk yo u .

C HA IR PER SO N : M a y be w e sh o u l d g e t a …

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N OR M A N SC: We w i l l m a rk i t f o r t h e

Ch a i r pe r so n . 10

C HA IR PER SO N : We sh o u l d g e t m ay b e a c le a n co py b ec au se …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A c le a n co py.

C HA IR PER SO N : Ja a c l e a n co py.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : I d o h av e .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ja a nd y o u w i l l m ark i t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A l r ig h t .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d y ou w i l l m a rk i t Exh i b i t

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : I w i l l m a rk i t Exh i b i t C C 1 [ f ] .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ja ok ay t ha t i s f i ne .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th an k y ou M r C h a i r m a n . 20


A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T ha nk y o u v e ry m uc h . T h a nk

yo u . M r Ch a i r m a n t h e o n e a sp e c t t h a t I wo u ld l i k e t he C ha i r pe rs on t o

de a l w i t h t h e a f f id av i t o f Mr W i l l i a ms . I t – va r i ou s p ar agr a p hs h e

m a ke s m e n t io n l i k e p a r a gra p h 11 o f C C 1[e ] .

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C HA IR PER SO N : M r W i l l i a ms .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s C C1 [e ]

C HA IR PER SO N : Ja .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N OR M A N SC: Yes a t p a r ag ra p h 11 i f I m a y

jus t d i r ec t t he C h a i r p e rs o n t o th os e p ar agr a p hs . Pa ra gr a ph 11 ,

pa ra gr a ph 1 8 an d 19 b u t i f yo u s ta r t w i t h p a r agr a p h 11 . T h is i s wh a t he

say s a t pa g e 7 pa g in a ted pa g e 7 .

C HA IR PER SO N : W h o i s h is – t h i s w as ha nd e d u p ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th i s w as h a n de d u p …

C HA IR PER SO N : To d a y so I do n o t k n o w a ny th i ng a bo u t i t . 10

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T h is i s M r M o e gs i e n Wi l l ia m s .

He is on e o f t he i m p l ic a te d pe rs on s .

C HA IR PER SO N : H m . H e is on e o f t h e i m p l ic a te d p er so ns ?

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes h e d i d n o t r es p on d d ur in g

t he t i m e a l l o we d .


A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : He s i m p ly – t h is w e r ec e i ve d

yes te r da y.


A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: W he n t h e c o m m is s i on ha d 20

s ta r t ed le a d i n g t h e ev i de nc e .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d w h a t i s i t ?

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: W ha t – i t i s a n a f f id av i t . Th er e

is n o no t ic e o f m o t i o n .


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A D V T H A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: H e m a k es i t c l ea r in th e

a f f i d av i t Mr Ch a i r m an th a t h e d oe s n o t w is h t o c ro ss - ex a m i ne Mr

Su n dar a m . H e a l so m ak es i t ve ry c l ea r i n p a ra gr a ph s 1 8 an d 1 9 t ha t

he d oe s n o t w is h t o c o m e an d t es t i fy b e fo r e t h e c o m m is s i o n .


A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T he l e ga l t ea m h as t ak e n a

v ie w d ep e nd i ng o n w h a t t h e Ch a i rp e rs o n ’s d i r ec t io n i s g o in g t o b e th a t

in t he l i g h t o f t he f ac t th a t he d oe s n o t w i sh t o co m e h e do es n o t w is h

t o c r os s -e xa m i n e M r Su nd ar a m th e n Mr S un d ar a m m u s t be a f f o r de d a n

op p or tun i ty t o re sp o n d t o h i s a f f i d av i t i n w r i t i n g sh o u l d t h e p ers on – 10

Ch a i r pe r so n d i r ec t s o . Or t h e o the r a l t e rn a t iv e o f co ur se wo u l d b e t h a t

t he se m a t te r s t ha t h e d i sp u tes in Mr Sun d ar a m ’s e v i de nc e t h a t M r

Su n dar a m b e g i ve n an op p or tu n i t y t o d ea l w i th th os e no w a n d i n

ev i d e nc e bu t w e a r e a l l su b je c t to th e d i r ec t io n by th e C h a i r p e rs o n

be ca us e t he re is n o – w e d o n o t k n o w wh a t – he s i m p ly sa ys I a m

p l ac in g t h i s b e fo re t h e c o m m i ss io n bu t h e d en ie s m os t o f t he ev i de nc e

o f M r Su n da ra m . Bu t h e d oe s o f c o urs e ad m i t o n e m e e t in g w h er e t he

P re s i de n t w as p re se n t a t t h e P re s i d en t ’s r es i d e n t i a l h o m e – o ff i c ia l

res id e nc e a nd t ha t i s th e m e et i ng o f th e 2 2 Ju n e 2 01 3 . An d he s ay s i t

m i gh t ve ry w e l l b e t ha t i t i s th a t m e e t i ng b u t wh a t h e d is p u tes is 20

wh e the r a t t ha t m e e t i n g m a t te r s th a t r e l a te d to e d i t o r ia l p o l i c y a n d

ev ery th i n g e ls e w er e d isc us se d . So …

C HA IR PER SO N : Ja we l l i f – i f s h e d o es no t wa n t to s u b j ec t he rs e l f to

g iv i ng ev id e nc e i f th a t i s w ha t s h e s ays .

A D V T H A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . I f I m ay r ea d i t –

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pa ra gr a ph 11 M r Ch a i r m a n .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : M r Ch a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : Pa ra gr a ph 11?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , y es p ag e 7 .

“ I ha ve i n t h e c i r c u ms ta nc es an x i o us l y c on s id e r e d m y

po s i t i o n i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e n o t ic e . I w i l l n o t m a ke

ap p l ic a t i o n t o c r oss - ex a m i n e t he w i t ne ss b u t

ne ve r t h e l es s w is h t o su b m i t t h is a f f i da v i t a nd r eq u es t

t he co m m i ss i on i ts le g a l t ea m a n d t he i n ves t ig a to rs 10

t o co ns i de r w ha t I s e t o u t h e r e i n . ”

An d t h e n i n p a r ag ra p h 1 8 a n d 1 9 :

“ I su b m i t t ha t t h e ev i d e nc e o f M r Su n d a ra m is n o t

t r ue an d h is ev i de nc e o ug h t t o b e p r o p er l y t es te d

w i t h a v ie w o f de te r m i n i ng t h e c r e d i b i l i t y a nd v e ra c i ty

o f th e a l l e ga t io ns h e m a k es . I t i s d o ub t f u l t h a t

c ro ss - ex a m in a t i o n o f t h e w i t ne ss w i l l b e a l lo w e d i n

t he c i r c u m s ta nc es an d I w i l l t h e r e fo r e n o t a pp ly to

c ro ss - ex a m in e th e w i t ne ss . ”

I n p a r ag ra p h 1 9 . 20

“ I acc or d i n g ly d o n o t w is h to ass er t m y r i g h t t o c r os s -

ex a m in e a nd d o n o t ap p l y t o c r os s -e xa m i ne M r

Su n dar a m . I h a v e c o n f i de nc e in t h e ev id e nc e

le a der s a nd th a t t h ey w i l l p r es e n t a l l r e l ev a n t

ev i d e nc ed t o t he co m m i s s i on er a nd t ha t su ch

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ev i d e nc e wo u ld b e p r es e n te d t o t he c o m m is s i o n

f a i r l y an d o b je c t iv e l y. ”

An d l as t l y p a r a gra p h 2 0 M r C h a i r m a n .

“F or t he re as o ns se t o u t h e r e i n u nd er I a l so d o n o t i n t en d

t o g i ve ev id e nc e b e fo r e th e c o m m is s i o n f o r t h e f o l l ow i ng

re as on s .

1 . I h av e n o t do n e a ny th i n g i m pr op er an d h av e n o t

co m m i t t e d a ny c r i m es .

2 . I h av e m o s t ce r t a in ly n o t co m m i t t e d t h e o f fe nc es o f

co r r u p t i on an d f r a u d o r p a r t i c i pa te d in s uc h o f fe n ce s 10

i n an y w ay w ha ts o ev er.

3 . I a m no t in p oss es s i o n o f a ny e v i d en ce wh ic h m ay

ass is t t h i s co m m i ss io n t o m ak e a ny co nc l u s iv e

f i n d i n gs i ns o fa r as t he c o m m i ss i o n ’s te r m s o f

re fe re nc e a re co nc er n ed . ”

C HA IR PER SO N : We l l h av e yo u h a d a ch a nc e t o r e f l ec t o n t h e

us e fu ln es s o f th is a f f i d av i t ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T he – i t i s us e fu l i n t h e s e ns e

t ha t

He h as m ad e m e n t i on o f ce r t a in a r ea s w h i ch h e be l i ev es th a t w e c ou l d 20

i nv es t i ga te . F i r s t o f a l l h e d e n i es th a t t h e se cu r i ty a t th e Pr es i de n t ’s

o f f i c i a l r es i de nc e i s as l ax as M r Su n d ar a m h ad t es t i f ie d . An d h e

po i n t s t h a t s ec ur i ty re cor ds w ou l d s ho w th a t h e i s i n f ac t c o r r ec t in t h a t

re gar d . An d s ec on d ly h e s ays he r e fe rs to a c e r t a i n a g en cy th a t s ays –

t ha t wh er e h e s ays t ha t t ha t ag e ncy c o u l d ass is t th e c o m m is s i o n i n – i n

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ge t t in g m or e i n fo r m a t i o n . T h e n t h a t – t o t ha t ex ten t i t w ou l d a ss i s t t h e

inv es t i ga to rs t o f o l l ow up o n t h os e le a ds . I t i s f o r th a t r e as on th a t w e

be l i ev e th a t i t w i l l a ls o b e p ru d en t fo r M r Su n dar a m to a c tu a l l y s i t d ow n

an d d ea l w i t h h is a f f id av i t i n w r i t i ng a n d m a yb e f i l e a s up p le m e n ta ry

a f f i d av i t de a l i ng w i t h a l l t he m a t t e rs t ha t h e a l le g es i n th is a ff i da v i t .

Ye s .

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t t h a t w o u l d h av e to h ap p e n a t s o m e s ta ge b ec a us e

M r Sun d ar a m i s l ea v i n g t o da y o r …

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N OR M A N SC: T ha t i s c o r r ec t . He i s le av i ng

t od ay. 10


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th a t i s c o r r ec t .

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t y o u

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Bu t we w i l l m o n i to r t h a t

Ch a i r pe r so n .

C HA IR PER SO N : So r ry ?

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : We c ou l d m o n i t o r t h e

su b m iss io n o f t he a f f i d av i t . Mr Su n dar a m co u l d a t t e nd t o i t sp e ed i l y

an d th e n

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s . 20

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: An d t he n w e w i l l m a k e s u r e th a t

i t g e t s s ub m i t t ed q u ic k ly.

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t d i d y o u s ay t he re a r e c e r ta i n a sp ec t s t h a t y o u

wo u ld p r e fe r t o …


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C HA IR PER SO N : To g iv e h i m a c ha nc e to de a l w i t h .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th a t i s c o r r ec t y es .

C HA IR PER SO N : O ka y l e t us d ea l w i t h t h o se th a t y ou ca n de a l w i t h .


C HA IR PER SO N : An d t h e n t h e a f f i da v i t c an b e m a d e av a i l ab le t o M r

Su n dar a m an d h e ca n re sp o n d t o i t b u t w ha tev er i t i s t h a t he c a n de a l

w i t h n o w l e t h i m de a l w i t h i t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : L e t h i m – th a nk y o u . A l r i g h t .

C HA IR PER SO N : W h a t h e c a nn o t d e a l w i t h b ec a us e h e ne e ds m or e

t i m e t h en w i l l h av e t o b e de a l t w i t h a t a l a t e r s t ag e . 10

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T h a nk y o u . T ha nk yo u M r

Ch a i r m a n . Mr Su n d ar a m m a y I j us t ta ke yo u to p a r ag ra p h l e t m e j u s t

se e t u r n t h e p a ge . – so r ry. A t pa r a gr ap h 8 i f yo u go to p a ra gr a ph 8 o f

M r Wi l l ia m ’s – t ha t i s Ex h ib i t C C 1 [e ] . D o y ou h av e i t ?


A D V T H A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T ha nk y o u . I n p a r a gra p h 8 o h

so r r y, so r ry t h is i s wo rk o f t he co m m i ss i on i t d ea ls w i t h h i m co m p l a i n i n g

ab o u t th e n o t ic e . Bu t I wo u ld l i ke t o d i r e c t yo u t o p a r a gr ap h 3 0 I b e g

yo ur p a r d on . In p a r agr a p h 3 0 t h is i s w h a t M r Wi l l ia m s s ay s :

“ I he ld t h i s p os i t i on w h ic h i s t h e p os i t io n o f t he 20

ed i to r i a l d i r ec to r i n i nd e pe n d en t n e ws pa p e r w h i ch h e

de a ls w i th i n pa r a gr ap h 2 9 . I he ld t h is po s i t i on u n t i l

Se p te m b er 2 01 2 wh e n I t o ok u p th e po s i t io n a s t h e

ed i to r o f t he N e w Ag e N ew sp a per. I n J un e 2 01 7 I

re ac he d re t i r e m e nt ag e a n d I re t i r ed a t th e a ge o f 65

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f r o m my p o s i t i o n as t h e ed i t o r o f t he N e w Ag e

ne ws p a per. I h a d in t h e in t e r i m a ls o s e r ve d as t h e

Ed i t o r in C h i e f o f th e te l ev i s i o n n e ws c ha n ne l AN N 7 . ”

Do yo u k n ow the p er i o d w h en M r Wi l l i a ms wa s t h e e d i t o r o f AN N 7 ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: N o I do n o t i t i s a f t e r I h a d l e f t f r o m h er e .

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes a nd h er e h e d o es n o t g iv e

us t h e d a tes as t o w h en h e t o ok u p t h e p os i t io n , i s th a t co r re c t i n t h is

pa ra gr a ph ?

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s th a t i s co r r ec t .

A D V TH A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s an d t h e n i f y o u g o t o p a ge 10

37 . He sa ys :

“ I c o ns i d e r ed t he a l l eg a t i o ns ag a in s t m e in a n

ex t r e m e l y s e r io us l i gh t e sp ec ia l l y t ha t t h es e

a l le g a t i on s m a y t a rn is h o r b le m i sh my r ep u ta t io n . A

re pu ta t i o n o f p ro fess i on a l a nd p ers on a l i n te g r i t y. I

ha ve t ak e n a l i f e t i m e t o bu i l d u p a n d w h ic h I c he r is h .

I t m ay n ow b e de s t ro ye d as a c on se qu e nc e o f

a l le g a t i on s m a de b y a n in d i v i d ua l wh o h as an a xe t o

g r i n d . ”

W h at d o y ou s ay t o t h a t? 20

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M : We l l I h av e g o ne t h r ou g h th e a f f i da v i t an d I

t h i nk i t i s a b u nc h o f ha l f - t r u ths an d a bs o l u te l ie s an d I wo u l d s ay t h a t I

s t a nd by m y a f f id av i ts a n d s up p l e m e n ta r y a f f i d av i t an d ev ery th i n g I

ha ve s a i d i n t ho se t h in gs . Th e m e e t i n gs t ha t h e i s d is p u t i ng ca n v e r y

we l l be v e r i f i ed by t h e i nv es t i g a to r s in t e r ms o f th e re co rd s t ha t ha ve

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

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be e n m a i n ta i ne d a t Pr es id e n t Z u m a ’s r es id e nc e . I h av e g i ve n d a tes ,

ex ac t da tes o f t ho se m e e t in gs a n d a ls o yo u k n ow th e m e e t i ng s th a t

ha p p en e d i n Ju ly a nd Au g us t t he re a r e t e n ta t iv e da tes . I t i s Su n d ay in

Ju l y so r ec or ds th e r e , t he C C T V fo o ta g e – t h e r e is a wh o le l o t o f w ay s

in w h i ch t h es e m e e t i n gs c a n b e v e r i f ie d . I s t a nd b y th e p os i t io n t h a t I

ha ve t ak e n . A l l t h e f ac ts t h a t I h av e g iv e n i n m y a f f id av i t I a bs o l u te ly

s t a nd by th e m .

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . Th a nk y o u . And t h en i n –

a t p a r ag ra p h 3 9 h e s ay s :

“Ba se d o n wh a t I h av e r ea d i t ap p ea rs t o be c l e a r 10

t ha t M r Su n dar a m h as n o t be e n v e ry s u cce ss fu l in

ob ta i n in g e m p lo y m e nt a f t e r h i s b r i e f t en ur e w i t h

AN N 7. Th a t h e is r e l i a n t u p o n t he s a l es o f h is bo ok

an d t h a t h e m a y w e l l b e m o t iv a te d by a n i m m e ns e

d is l i ke f o r t h e Gu p ta fa m i ly a nd in p a r t i cu la r M r A tu l

G u p ta . ”

Ca n we p au se t he r e an d a sk y o u a f te r yo u l e f t AN N 7 d id y o u m an a g e t o

ge t a ny e m p l oy m e n t i n I nd i a an d w he n l as t i f y ou d id w h e n d i d t ha t

ha p p en an d ho w l o n g d id i t la s t?

M R R A J ESH SU N D A R A M: We l l ev e r s i nc e I w en t b ack f ro m h e re I 20

ha ve l a un ch e d two t e le v is i on s ta t io ns i n Ch e n na i . N ew Se v en Ta m i l

an d Ka lv a r i N ew s an d I h av e n o t be e n o u t o f e m p l oy m e n t yo u kn o w I

ch os e to n o t wo rk w h i le I w r i t i ng t h e b oo k fo r a f e w m o n ths an d I

res ig n ed f r o m Ka lv a r i N e ws wh ic h is t he sec o nd s ta t i o n I se t up ju s t

las t y ear i n Au gu s t . T ha t w as b ec a us e I ha d t o p r ep ar e f o r m y

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t r an sp l an t . I h av e b ee n a sk ed by m y d o c to rs to s t ay a w ay f ro m fu l l

t i m e wo rk f o r s i x m o n th s p os t t he t ra ns p l a n t an d I h av e h a d no

[ i n d is t in c t ] o f wo rk a f t e r I qu i t t h e r e . I h a ve a ls o ha d t he p os i t i on o f a

co ns u l t an t fo r th e R a j as th an Pa t r i ka Gr o u p a nd I ha ve wor ke d s t r a i gh t

t h ro u g h a nd t he d ays o r m o n ths t ha t I h a ve n o t wor ke d i s b ec a us e o f

m e d i ca l r e as on s o r t he t i m e i m m e d i a te ly a f t e r I c a m e b ack w h en I w a s

wr i t in g th e b o ok . So t h i s l i k e o th e r e l e m e n ts i n t h is a f f id av i t i s an

ab so l u te l i e .

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes a nd t h e n j us t r ec e n t ly

m a yb e a m o nth a g o d id y ou do an y w o rk – w er e y o u w ork i ng l as t 10

m o n th ?

M R R A J ESH SU N D A R A M: Ye s I w as ap pr o ac he d by t h e Be n n e t t

Co l m a n a c o m p a ny w h ic h o wn s t h e Ti m e s o f I nd i a G ro u p t o b e a se n i o r

jo u r na l i s t t o b e o n t h e p a ne l f o r t he e l ec t i on c ov er a ge . So t h ey h av e a

ch an n e l c a l l ed M i r an a l a nd I w as on t he p an e l f o r t h e e le c t i on c ov er a ge

r ig h t f r o m a f e w w ee ks b e fo re t he e l ec t i o ns t i l l t h e e nd o f e l ec t i o ns . I

a m s t i l l on e o f t h e p a n e l l i s ts f o r M i r a na l r ig h t no w a nd I a m a ls o a n

ed i to r i a l c on su l ta n t w i th a ne w sp a pe r ba s ed i n Was h in g to n D C c a l le d

I nd ia Am e r i ca To d a y. So I m e a n t ha t i s a po s i t i o n th a t I ha ve as – on a

co ns u l t a t i v e b as i s . So w ha t M r M o e g s ie n W i l l i a m s is s ay i ng is 20

so m e th i n g w h ic h h as n o f ac tua l ba s is a n d i t i s a n ab so lu te l i e l i k e m os t

o f t h e o the r t h i n gs i n h is a f f i d av i t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N OR M A N SC : Ye s t h an k y ou . An d t he n he

co n t i nu es :

“A l l o f t h is a ga i ns t t he b ac kg ro u nd o f a d i s as t r ou s

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l a u nc h o f t h e t e l ev is i o n s ta t i on a l au n ch h e wa s

p r i m a r i l y r es p on s i b l e f o r . Apa r t f ro m h a v in g sp e n t

on ly t h r e e m o n th s in th e co u n t ry h av in g n o t be e n

ve r y su cc ess fu l as a n ed i to r o f AN N 7 h av i ng a

t u m u l t uo us re l a t i on sh ip w i th h is e m p l oy ers a nd

ha v i n g le f t t h e r e pu b l ic un d er a c l o u d M r Sun d ar a m

ap p e ars t o ju s t i fy h is la ck o f su cc ess a t AN N 7 w i t h

re fe re nc e t o a l l e ga t io ns w h i ch a r e s i m p ly no t t r u e i n

a b oo k h e w is he s t o s e l l a nd t o p ro tec t a

p r o fes s i o na l r ep u ta t io n . ” 10

Two qu es t io ns a r is i n g f ro m th a t . D i d y o u l ea ve t he r e p ub l i c u nd er a

c lo u d a nd i f s o wh a t w as t h a t – a r e yo u aw ar e o f t h a t c lo u d I d o n o t

kn ow ?

M R R A J ESH SU N D A RA M : Ab so l u te ly n o t . I h av e ex p l a i n e d i n m y b oo k

t ha t th e d is as t ro us la u nc h o r a t ra i n w r ec k as I c a l l e d i t .


M R R A J ESH SU ND A R A M: Was b ec au se o f th e mi c r o m a n ag e m e n t by

A tu l G u p ta th e te a r in g hur ry i n w h i c h t h ey d i d n o t a l lo w th e

p r o fes s i o na ls to ta ke a d ec is i o n . T he t ec hn ic ia ns wer e u n d er

t r e m e nd o us p re ss ur e a n d n o bo dy w ou ld a t th e en d o f t h e d ay be ca us e 20

o f t h e sh e er f e a r th a t th ey ha d o f A tu l G u p ta ’s r a ge w ou ld t e l l h i m th a t

yo u kn o w w h a t h e w as do i ng wa s wr o n g a n d t h a t w e w er e h ea d in g

t ow ar ds a d i sa s te r . Ev en t ho se wh o to ld h i m tha t wer e s e en w i t h

sus p i c i o n a nd t he r e as on wh y t h e l au nc h a t th e ANN 7 wa s a d is as te r

wa s [ i n d i s t i nc t ] b ec au se o f Mr A tu l G u p ta an d t h e f ac t t ha t h e w ou l d go

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i n t o a f i t o f r a g e i f a ny b od y w en t ag a in s t wh a t h e wa s sa y i n g . He

ig n ore d p r o fess io n a l a dv ic e an d f o r us t o w ar ds t he e n d i t w as c l e a r t ha t

we w er e a l m o s t o n a s u ic i de m i ss i o n y o u k no w. We w ere g o i n g i n to t h is

we k n e w tha t i t wa s s u r e fa i l u r e a t t h e e nd o f i t b u t a s p r o fe ss i o n a ls we

kn ew th a t w e ha d t o g o in to w e c o u l d no t a b an d on i t a n d we w e n t

s t r a ig h t h e ad on . An d l i k e I s a i d y es te rd ay th e re a so n w hy we c a m e

ou t o f t h i s w i t h ou t i n th e f o r m th a t w e d i d wa s be c au se o f t h e ha rd w or k

t ha t yo u k n o w th e So u th A f r i ca n t ec hn ic ia ns a nd j ou r n a l i s ts p u t i n t h is

p l ac e . I t c ou l d ha ve b e e n m u ch w or se h a d t ha t n o t b ee n t h e s i tu a t i o n .

T he y we re t h e g l ue t h a t m a de s u re t h a t yo u k n ow w i th in a m a t t e r o f 10

we ek s we w er e i n a p os i t i o n w h er e we co u l d l a un ch o f c o urs e i t w as n o t

t o t h e p ro fes s i on a l s ta n d ard s th a t I h av e l au nc h e d o the r c ha n ne ls b u t I

wo u ld s ay h ere c a te g or i ca l l y th a t t ha t w as be ca us e I w as n o t a l lo w e d to

wo rk . I w as w ork in g w i t h m y h an ds t ie d b eh i nd m y b ack a n d c o ns tan t ly

m ic r o m a n ag e d b y t h e G u p ta b r o the r s e sp e c ia l l y Mr A tu l G u p ta .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes a nd t h e n he s ays w h en h e

de a ls w i th t he m e e t i n gs a t t he o f f i c i a l r es i de nc e o f t he f o r m er p r es i d en t

a t p a r ag ra p h 4 2 h e s ay s :

“ I d o no t c on s i de r th e a f f id av i ts d ep os e d t o by M r Su n da ra m to d i r ec t ly

i m p l ic a te m e i n an y ac ts o f c o r r u p t i o n o r f r au d . I u n der s ta n d th e 20

a l le g a t i on s t o s i m p ly m e a n t ha t I i n t h e co m p a ny o f o th e rs a t t e nd e d

t h re e m e e t i n gs a t th e o f f i c i a l r es id e nc e o f t h e fo r m er p r es i d en t M r

Jac o b Z u m a in P re to r i a i n th a t I f u r th e r m or e w as p re se n t a t a v is i t t o

t he s tu d i os o f AN N 7 b y M r Z u m a o n 19 Au g us t 2 0 13 . ”

An d t he n h e d esc r i be s ho w h e m e t th e p r es i d e n t fo r th e f i r s t t i m e b u t

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t h is i s wh a t I w ou l d l i ke yo u to c o m m e n t o n ? H e s ay a t p a ra gr a ph 4 6 :

“D ur i n g m y te n ur e as Ed i t o r o f Ne w Ag e n ew sp a p er I

a ls o m e t M r Z u m a o n tw o fu r t h e r occ as i on s wh e n I

acc o m p a n i ed m e m b e rs o f m y s ta f f a n d o r r ep or t e rs o f

AN N 7 fo r on t h e r ec or d in t e r v i ew s w i t h t he f o r m e r

p r es i d en t a n d f o r se ver a l o f f t he re co r d b r i e f i n gs

su bs eq u e n t ly. I i n t e r po se d t o i nv i te a t te n t i o n t o

re f l ec t th a t m e m b er s o f th e m e d i a r e gu l a r l y m e e t w i t h

se n i o r po l i t i c ia ns a nd d o s o fo r a va r i e t y o f re as o ns .

Q u i t e f r e qu e n t l y po l i t i c i a ns w o u l d e n ga g e m e m b er s 10

o f t he m e d i a i n re l a t i on to m a t t e rs c o nc e rn i n g t h e i r

po l i t i c a l pa r t i es a n d i n a n en d e av our to – o f

a t t e m p t in g t o pe r su a d e m e m b er s o f t h e m ed i a t o b e

sy m p ath e t ic t o t h e i r p a r t y o r t he i r p a r t i c u l a r ca us e o r

ev en s w ay to s w ay m e m b ers o f t he m e d i a i n f av ou r

o f t h e i r p o l i t i c a l v i ew s . ”

Is t h is w ha t he sa ys is i t a c o m m o n oc cur r en ce as h e p u t i t?

M R R A J ESH SU N D A RA M : I t h i nk w h a t he is t a l k i n g ab o u t i s a

d iv e r s i o nar y ta c t ic . I a m ta l k i ng a p p l es h e i s t a lk i n g o ra n ge s . Fo r a n

ed i to r o r a j ou rn a l i s t to g o m e e t po l i t i c ia ns an d p re s i d en ts t h a t i s 20

no th i n g ou t o f t he o rd in a r y bu t t h es e m ee t in gs w hy I w o u l d sa y i s

d i f f e r en t i s b ec a us e h e is no t on ly th e e d i t o r o f th e Ne w Age he is a

d i r ec to r in t h e c o m pa ny t h a t i s o wn e d w h ic h is no t d i sc l os e d i n t h is .

He a ls o h as n o t d isc lo se d th a t t he P re s i d en t ’s s o n i s a sh ar e ho l de r i n

t he c o m p an y t h a t h e is t a lk i n g a bo u t a n d h e is d e ny in g e n ga g in g i n

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co m m e rc ia l d is cu ss i o ns w i t h th e P re s i d en t . And I c a n un d ers tan d w hy

he is d o in g t ha t . Be c au s e th e n he w o u l d be i m p l i ca t in g h i m s e l f . So –

an d I th in k t he fa c t s a r e in m y bo ok h er e ab o u t t he n u m b er o f m e e t in gs

t ha t he a t te n de d an d th e nu m b er o f m e e t in gs t ha t he d i d no t . I h av e

c le a r ly a i d t h a t he wa s p ar t o f th e f i r s t m e e t i ng . T h ere w as o n e m e e t i n g

in w h ic h he wa s v is i t i n g Ca p e To wn a n d he c o u l d n o t c o m e a n d a l so

de ta i l s o f t h e f ou r t h m ee t in g a r e a ls o g i ve n . So m os t o f t h e f ac ts t h a t

he i s re ly i n g o n a r e a ls o d ub i ou s in th is c as e . An d to an sw er y ou r

qu es t io n I w o u l d s ay wh e n e d i t o r m e e t i n g a p o l i t i c i an o r th e p re s i d en t

i s n o t o u t o f th e o rd in a r y w ha t i s o u t o f th e o r d i n a ry i s t h a t f ac t th a t a s 10

a d i r ec to r o f t h e c o m p a ny y o u g o in g w i t h t he o w ne rs o f y our n e ws pa p er

f o r b us i ne ss d e a l i ng s t h a t I t h i nk is – b r i ng s a d i r ec t c o n f l i c t o f i n t e r es t .

I t i s n o t d e f in i te ly no t p e r ta i n i ng t o t he h ig he s t s ta n d ard s o f jo u r n a l i s t i c

e th ics t ha t I k no w o f .

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . And i n p a r a gr ap h 50 , 5 1 ,

52 a n d 54 t h e r e he d e a ls w i th t h e fa c t th a t i t i s a n – w ha t yo u s ay t h a t

t he r e w ere m a t t e rs o f ed i to r i a l p o l i cy t h a t w er e d is cu ss ed w i t h t he

P re s i de n t th a t i s n o t c o r r ec t . Bu t I a m j us t s u m m a r is i ng i t i ns te a d o f

jus t re a d i n g e ve ry th i ng i n to t h e r ec or d . He s ays t h a t t h a t i s n o t w ha t

ha p p en e d . T h ey w er e g o in g t he r e as an y o th e r m e d i a w ou ld g o an d ge t 20

t he e ar o f th e P r es i d e n t a s he su g g es ts in t he p r ev i ou s p ar a gr ap h t ha t I

r e ad t o y ou . W ha t do yo u s ay to t h a t?

M R R A J ESH SU N D A R A M: I w o u ld s ay t h a t he is l y i ng i n h i s a f f i da v i t .

T ha t I s ta n d by wh a t I h av e s a id . Wh a t w as d isc us se d wa s m a t te rs o f

ed i to r i a l po l i cy a b o u t t he d es i g n o f th e s tud io s , a bo u t c o m m e rc i a ls i n

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t e r m s o f t he ex p e ns e h e ad s an d t h i ng s l i k e th a t . I s t an d by w ha tev er I

ha ve sa id in m y a f f i da v i t an d I c on t r a d ic t w ha t he is s ay in g .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . M a yb e j us t to c on f i r m

wh a t h e ha d a l r e ad y co nv ey e d t o t he Ch a i rp e rs on w i t h ou t r e ad i ng f r o m

the pa ra gr a ph – p a r a gr ap h 66 . W he re he say s :

“A l t ho u gh I d o n o t r ec a l l th e sp ec i f i c d a te o n wh ic h

I a t te n de d t h e m e e t i n g i t m a y ve r y w e l l be

22 Ju n e 2 0 13 t he d a te r e fe r re d t o by M r Sun d ar a m .

I t i s no s m a l l s i g n i f i ca nc e t h a t h e is un a b l e t o

rec o l l ec t t he da te i n J u ly o r Au g us t wh e n t h e 10

sec o nd a n d t h i rd m e e t in gs a r e a l l e g ed t o h av e

t ak en p l ac e . As I a m co n f i d en t th e re cor ds a t t h e

sec ur i ty c he ck po in t s w i t h in t h is o f f i c i a l es ta te o f

G ov er n m e nt r es id e nc e w i l l n o t su p po r t t he p re se nc e

o f an y o f th e i nd iv id u a ls c la i m e d to h a v e be e n a t

t he re s i d en ce o f t h e P re s i de n t d u r i n g Ju l y an d

au g us t 2 0 1 3 . R e g ard l ess o f th e d a tes t h ou g h I a m

co n f i de n t t ha t t he d e l e ga t io n on ly v i s i te d t he

P re s i de n t ’s r es id e nc e o n o n e o cc as io n . ”

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: We l l I wo u l d wa n t to p u t t h i s t o h i m – y o u 20

kn ow – t h e f ac t t ha t h e d oe s no t w a n t to c ro ss - ex a m in e m e o r t he f ac t

t ha t h e d o es n o t w a n t t o s u b j ec t h i m se l f t o c ro ss - ex a m in a t i o n sp e ak s

vo l u m e s . W h a t I w ou l d sa y is t ha t w ha t I ha ve sa id i s fa c tu a l l y c o r r e c t .

We w er e w he e l e d in t o t h e Pr es i de n t ’s r es id e nc e . T h er e a re r ec ord s o f

t he Gu p ta f l e e t c a r s i n w h i ch we w e n t a nd a r ec or d o f t ha t w as s en t

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t h ro u g h As l a n t o Mr Ash u Ch a w l a a n d t h e r e w ou l d b e re co rd s o f th a t

t he r e . I a m s ur e t he r e a r e C C T V c a m er as a t t he p or ch w h er e y o u co u l d

se e w h er e t h e e n t r ie s t o ok p l ac e . By t he sp ec i f i c da tes I ha ve n o t p u t

in h e r e b ec au se I w ou ld no t k no w fo r s u re b u t I kn o w tha t i t w as a

Su n da y in J u ly 2 0 1 3 a nd I w o u l d s ay t h a t i f – i f t h e in ve s t i g a to r s w er e

t o g o a nd l o ok a t th e C C T V fo o ta g e - t o l o ok a t t he re co rd s o f t h e

sec ur i ty i n t e r m s o f t h e c a rs t ha t e n te r t he re . Th ey w o u l d k no w th a t

wh a t I a m s ay i n g is t h e t r u th . As f a r as Au g us t i s co nc er n ed a s i m i l a r

t h i ng I w o u l d r eq u es t t h e i nv es t i g a to r s t o g o t h r o ug h a n d I wo u ld

ch a l le n ge M r M o e gs ie n Wi l l i a ms – yo u kn ow – i f t he r e is – y o u k n o w 10

t ha t wh a t h e is s ay in g i s a n a bs o l u te l i e an d i f I h av e t o s ta y a n e x t ra

da y I w ou ld d o t h a t i f h e w an ts t o c r oss - ex a m in e m e . I a m w i l l in g to

f ac e h i m a n d I a m s ure w h e n th e i nv es t i g a to r s ge t t h e i r e v i de n ce t h ey

wo u ld k n o w th a t w h a t I a m s ay in g i s t h e a b so l u te t ru th .


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: Ab ou t t he se m e e t i ng s .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T h an k yo u M r Ch a i r m a n . T ho se

a r e t h e m a t t e r s t h a t I w i sh t o ra is e w i th M r Su nd ar a m .

C HA IR PER SO N : W i t h re g ar d t o th e ke ep i ng o f r ec ord s a t t he

P re s i de n t ’s o f f i c i a l re s i d en ce yo u d i d t es t i fy t h a t y o u n o t i ce d t ha t i t 20

ap p e are d - w h e n yo u w e n t t o th e Pr es i de n t ’s o f f i c ia l re s i d en ce t ha t

sec ur i ty w as qu i te l ax a nd y o u sa id y o u d i d n o t kn o w w h e th er th a t i s

ho w i t n o r m a l ly wa s o r w h e th er i t w as s i m p ly be ca us e y ou w er e p ar t o f

t he – t h i s w as a d e l e ga t io n f r o m th e G up ta f a m i l y. Do y o u h av e a ny

rec o l l ec t i o n w he th er a ny b od y w as r ec or d i ng t ha t th e de le g a t i o n – th a t

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pe o p l e wer e c o m i ng in a nd o u t? L e av in g o u t a ny s ec ur i t y c a m er as .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: I k n ow fo r a f ac t t h a t be fo r e t h e ev e n t fo r

t he se m e e t in gs t h e v e h ic l e nu m b er s a n d t he se v eh ic le s wer e f r o m th e

G u p ta f l ee t o f c a r s a nd I a m sur e th e r e a re re co rd s o f t h a t . We o n l y

we n t i n t he SU Vs f r o m th e G up ta f l e e t a n d th ey w er e – t h e n u m b ers –

t he r e g i s t ra t io n nu m b er s o f t he se ve h i c l e s w er e g iv en in a dv a nc e t o

M r As hu C ha w la w ho w o u l d th e n g iv e i t to t he P re s i d en t ’s o f f i ce a nd as

so on as w e w ere ab o u t t o en te r t h e g a te t he y wo u ld s ee th e n u m b ers

an d th ey w ou l d ju s t w av e u s s t ra i gh t th ro u gh in . In t he s ec o nd m e e t i n g

wh e n M r As hu C ha w l a w as d r i v i ng t h ey sa w h is f ac e an d th ey j us t 10

wa ve d us in . I wa s a l wa ys c a r ry i ng m y p ass p or t b ec a us e y o u kn o w i n

cas e t he r e is r eq u i re m e n t f o r a n ID to b e g iv e n a t t h e re s i d en ce b u t I

ha ve n o r ec o l le c t i on o f m y ID ev er b ee n c he ck ed . I a m n o t s u re b u t I

a m q u i t e c e r t a i n th e r e w ou l d b e C C T V ca m er as t he r e w h i ch – w h ic h ca n

c le a r – yo u kn o w – we ca n g o ba ck a nd c h ec k r ec ord s o f a n d i f t h e

ve h ic l e n u m b ers w er e g iv e n a m s ure t h e r e w i l l b e a r ec or d o f t ha t as

we l l - yo u k no w – b ec a us e t he r e w o u l d b e a s ec ur i ty e n t r y t h a t i s m a d e

so m e w he re . So I a m a bs o l u te ly c on f id e n t t h a t – y ou kn o w – t h es e

m e e t i n gs d i d t ak e p la ce . I a t t e n de d t ho se m e et i ng s an d t h e

d is cu ss io ns w ere o n t h e t o p i cs th a t I h av e sa i d i n t he a f f i d av i t . 20


C HA IR PER SO N : W h a t h as h a pp e ne d t o a su p p l e m e n ta r y a f f id av i t by

h i m re l a t i ng t o t h e q u o ta t io ns in h i s s ta te m en t?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: M r C h a i r p e rs o n f ro m th is

m or n in g I g o t a s en se th a t C ha i r pe rs on w ou l d l i k e h i m to d e a l w i th a l l

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t he qu o ta t i on s i n t h e b o ok o r j us t th e qu o ta t i on s i n t h e s ta te m e n t?

C HA IR PER SO N : O h w e l l o n e , ce r t a in ly i n t he s ta te m e n t …


C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t i ns o fa r a s t he re i s e v id e nc e i n t he b o ok t h e r e is –

t he c o n te n ts o f t h e b o ok o r p a r ts o f t h e co n te n ts o f t h e b oo k …


C HA IR PER SO N : T ha t he is – h e h as co n f i r me d her e .


C HA IR PER SO N : To t he e x te n t t ha t a ny p ar ts t h e re o f a r e pu t i n

qu o ta t i on s h e m us t j us t – h e m us t t e l l us … 10


C HA IR PER SO N : W h e th er th os e w er e q u o ta t i on s as w e a l l un d ers ta nd

t he m to s ay …


C HA IR PER SO N : T ho se w er e w or d fo r wo rd . Th a t i s w ha t t h e p ers on

sa i d wo rd f o r wor d …


C HA IR PER SO N : Or wh e ther i t w as s o m e th i n g e ls e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s C ha i r pe rs on .

C HA IR PER SO N : So – so o n l y i ns o fa r a s i t r e l a tes t o w h a t he h as 20

co n f i r m e d .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , t h an k y ou .

M r C h a i r p e rs o n c o u l d he t h e n b e a l l o we d t i m e m ay b e by n ex t w ee k th a t

i s w e o b ta in t he s up p le m e n ta ry o r w ou l d t h e C ha i r pe rs on p re fe r to ha ve

i t s o o ner ?

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C HA IR PER SO N : We l l t ha t i s – th a t i s f in e . I t ca n be – i t ca n b e

de l i ve re d i n d u e c ou rs e .


C HA IR PER SO N : J a . I …


C HA IR PER SO N : I w as ho p in g t ha t i t wo u ld h av e be e n d o n e o ve rn ig h t

bu t t o t h e e x te n t t h a t i t d id n o t in vo lv e th e bo ok . I t m i g h t …


C HA IR PER SO N : H av e r e qu i r ed m o re t i m e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s M r C h a i r p e rs o n . 10

C HA IR PER SO N : So th a t – t h a t i s f in e . Yo u c an m ak e a r ra n ge m e n ts

f o r …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : F o r h i m to de a l w i t h th a t .

C HA IR PER SO N : H i s s u pp l e m e nta r y a f f i da v i t t o b e d e l i v e r ed i n d u e

co urs e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : t h a nk y o u .

C HA IR PER SO N : J a .


C HA IR PER SO N : Ok ay.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th a t i s h is ev id e nc e , t h a nk y ou . 20



C HA IR PER SO N : M r Sun d ar a m th an k y o u v e ry m u c h o nc e a ga in f o r

ha v i n g c o m e to t h e C o m m is s i o n t o g i ve e v id e nc e . We a ppr e c i a te i t . I

w i l l ob v i o us l y a t s o m e s ta ge w e i gh u p a n d ass es s a l l t he ev id e nc e , yo ur

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ev i d e nc e a nd t he ev id e nc e o f o th e r w i t ne ss es a n d m ak e w h a tev er

f i n d i n gs I be l i ev e s ho u l d b e m a de bu t I t h an k yo u f o r th e fa c t th a t y ou

t oo k t h e t r o u b l e a n d a gr ee d t o co m e a l l t he w ay to t r y a nd as s is t t he

Co m m i s s i on as m u ch as y o u c ou ld . T h an k yo u v e ry m uc h .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T ha n k yo u v e ry m u ch C ha i r m a n f o r g iv i ng

m e t he o pp or tun i ty to s ay so m e th in g th a t I ha ve b ee n wa i t i n g f o r …


M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: S ix y e ars t o s a y.

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s , n o p r o b l e m .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h an k y ou v e r y m uc h . I r e a l l y ap pr ec ia te i t . 10

C HA IR PER SO N : N o t ha nk y o u v e ry m uc h an d y o u a r e exc us e d .

M R R AJ ESH SU N D A R A M: T h an k y ou .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T h an k yo u v e ry m u ch

M r C h a i r m a n . T h an k yo u M r Su n d ara m . M r Ch a i r pe r so n I w o u l d l i k e t o

ca l l th e ne x t w i t n ess M r J os i as Jo h an n es Sco t t .

C HA IR PER SO N : D o y o u w a n t a …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : M a yb e …

C HA IR PER SO N : F iv e m i nu tes …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , j us t t o t i dy u p , ye s . T h an k

yo u . 20

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s , ok ay.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th an k y ou v e r y m u c h .

C HA IR PER SO N : I w i l l t ak e f i v e m i nu tes a d j o u rn m e n t …


C HA IR PER SO N : J us t t o a l lo w t he c h an g e .

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , t ha nk y o u Mr C ha i r .

R EG IST R A R: A l l r i se .

H EA R IN G AD J O U RN S

H EA R IN G R ESU M ES

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u m ay p r oc ee d M s N or m a .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T h a nk y o u Mr C ha i r m a n .

M r C h a i r m a n w e h av e p l ac e d be fo r e y ou EXH IB IT C C 2 w h i ch is t he

s ta te m e n t o f M r J os ia s Jo h a nn es Sc o t t .

C HA IR PER SO N : T h i s ex h i b i t w o u l d b e ex h i b i t cc 2 . T ha t i s t h e f i l e

co n ta in i ng t he s ta te m en t by M r J os i as J o h an n es Sco t t . 10


C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s M r J o ha n ne s – j a , M r J os i as J oh a nn es Sc o t t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Sc o t t , ye s t h an k yo u

M r C h a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : J a , t h an k yo u .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : M r Ch a i r m a n …

C HA IR PER SO N : I w as c h eck in g wh e the r i t i s Sc o t o r Sc o t t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : O r Sco t t th a nk y o u .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T h a nk y o u Mr C ha i r m a n . 20

M r Sc o t t i s t h e per so n w ho w e m e n t i o n ed w h en M r Su nd ar a m w as

g iv i ng ev i d e nc e as th e s en i o r sa le s re p r es en ta t i ve o f t he SABC a n d h i s

ev i d e nc e de a ls w i t h t h e sa le o f th e a r ch iv a l c on te n t o f th e SA BC . M a y

he b e s wor n i n M r C h a i r m a n ? T ha nk y o u .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yes , th a nk y ou . P l e as e a d m in is te r t h e o a th o r

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a f f i r m a t i on .

R EG IST R A R: P le as e s ta te y o ur fu l l n a m e s f o r th e r ec or d .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J os i as J oh a n ne s Sc o t t .

R EG IST R A R: Do y o u ha ve a ny ob je c t i o ns t o t ak in g t h e p r esc r i be d

oa th ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : N o .

R EG IST R A R: D o y o u c o ns i d e r t he o a th t o be b i nd in g o n y ou r

co nsc i en ce ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Ye s .

R EG IST R A R: Do yo u s o l e m n ly s w e ar th a t a l l t h e e v i d en ce yo u w i l l g iv e 10

wi l l b e t h e t r u th , t he wh o l e t ru th a n d n o th in g b u t t he t r u th i f s o p l e as e

ra i se yo ur r ig h t h a nd a nd sa y so h e l p m e G o d.

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : H e l p m e G o d.

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : ( d u ly s w o r n , s t a t e s)

C HA IR PER SO N : T ha nk yo u .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th an k y ou v e r y m u c h .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u m ay p r oc ee d .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , t h a nk y o u . Mr Sc o t t

be fo r e y ou – y o u h av e a b u nd l e . I t i s m a rk ed EXH IB IT C C 2 . I f y ou t u r n

t o p a ge 1 o f t h a t b un d le yo u w i l l s e e t h a t i t i s a s w or n a f f i da v i t . I s t h a t 20

yo ur a f f i da v i t ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t i s c o r r ec t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s a n d i f y o u tu rn to p a ge 1 4

– I b eg y o ur pa r d o n – to p ag e 11 o f t h a t . I s t h a t y our s i gn a tu r e t h a t

ap p e ars a t p ag e 11 ?

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M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : M y s ig n a tu re …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sw or n u nd er o a th .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: S wo rn u n de r o a th an d y o u d i d

t ha t on t he – o n wh ic h d a te – 5 Oc tob er – wa s i t 1 0 M ay 2 01 9 ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : O n 10 M ay.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : 2 0 19 ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A nd – a n d a re t h e co n te n ts o f

t h is a f f i d av i t t r u e a n d co r re c t? 10

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Par d o n?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A r e th e c o n te n ts o f th e a f f i d av i t

t r ue a nd co r re c t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : 1 00 p erc en t c o r r ec t …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : An d t ru e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . C a n y ou j us t te l l t h e

Ch a i r pe r so n th a t yo u w er e o nc e e m p l oy ed by t h e So u th A f r i c a n

B ro a dc as t i n g C or p ora t io n – t h e SABC ? C ou l d yo u te l l t he C ha i r pe rs on

wh e n a n d – w he n d i d y ou jo in t h e SA BC ? 20

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I j o i ne d t he SABC i n 1 9 95 an d I w as

ca l l ed i n t o th e o f f i c e o f t he G en er a l M a na g er H u m a n R es ou rc es o n

13 Apr i l l as t y e ar b e i n g o n c on t r ac t fo r 2 5 ye ars – n ea r ly – a n d h e sa i d

t o m e s i r so r r y w e a r e no t g o i n g t o r en e w y o ur c o n t r ac t . Yo u a re t o o

W h i t e a n d y ou a r e to o o l d .

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M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : So I l e f t t he en d o f Apr i l la s t ye ar .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A l r ig h t . C a n yo u t ak e i t s te p b y

s te p , a l r i gh t? W he n y o u f i r s t j o in e d t h e SABC i n wh a t c ap ac i ty we re

yo u e m p l oy ed ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I j o in e d th e m as sa l es p e r so n i n th e

Co n ten t En te r p r is es D ep ar tm e n t un t i l 2 0 09 . I j o i n e d th e m i n 1 99 5

du r i ng t he Ru g by Wor l d C u p a nd M r Sn o ok i Se g a l la i n 2 0 0 9 f e l t t h a t

ne ws a rc h i ve f oo ta ge s h ou ld f a l l u nd er ne ws an d g e n era te

m o n ey / i nc o m e fo r n e ws . So c on te n t en te rp r is es t h en g o t sp l i t . T h ey 10

we re on ly a l lo w e d t o s e l l p r o g ra m m i n g a nd a n e w d e par tm e n t c a l le d

Ne w s Ag e ncy w as fo r m e d t o s e l l a l l n e ws c on te n t f o o ta g e …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : An d I j o i ne d t h e m i n 2 00 9 w h er e t he y

s ta r t ed o f f .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s a n d t he n wh a t w as t he

ac tua l p os i t i on t h a t yo u h e ld in t ha t de p ar tm e n t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h a t w a s t he … ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th e p os i to n th a t y ou h e l d ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Was s en io r sa le s re p r es e n ta t iv e . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s a n d h ow m a ny w er e y o u i n

t ha t de p ar tm e n t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I n c l ud i ng a n in te r n fo u r , exc lu d in g

t he in te r n t h r e e .


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M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : M y se l f , a l ad y wh o w as th e

ad m i n is t r a to r a nd an o the r g e n t w ho a l so s o l d n e ws i t e m s to t he p ub l ic .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . So w h a t w as t he r o l e o f a

se n i o r s a l es r e p r es en ta t i ve ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : We l l b a s ic a l l y to he l p b r o ad ca s te r s

an d p r od uc t io n ho u se s t o ge t t h e c o r r e c t f oo ta ge w he n t he y m a de

p r ogr a m s f o r th e SA BC or a ny o the r c o m pa ny a n d to m a k e s u r e th a t

t he y re ce iv e t h e c o r r ec t fo o tag e a n d a ls o t o a vo id a l l c op y r i g h t i s su es .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . Yo u – th e i nv es t ig a to rs o f

t he C o m m is s i o n a s y ou k no w ha d a ppr o ac he d y o u an d y o u h a d de p os e 10

t o th is a f f i da v i t t o d ea l w i t h ce r t a in a sp ec ts o r a pa r t i c u l a r s a l e o f t he

a rc h i va l c on te n t . Am I r i gh t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h en I g o t a pp ro ac h ed by …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : AN N 7?


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : A t t h a t s t a ge i t w as I n f i n i ty M e d i a .

No , Mr N az ee m H o w a c a m e to se e m e – a re a l g e n t l e m an . He s a t do w n

an d w e d is cu ss ed ho w a rc h iv es wo rk a n d I ex p l a i n e d t o h i m a , w e d o

no t t ra ns fe r a ny m a te r i a l o n b e ha l f o f ou ts id e c l ie n ts b ec a us e i f th ey 20

ar e no t h a pp y we h av e w as ted o ur t i m e a nd o ur t a p es a nd e ver y th in g .

Yo u w i l l h av e t o m ak e s o m e b od y a va i l a b l e f ro m y o ur o f f i c es t o c o m e

an d s e l ec t w ha t y o u w a n t a nd h e w as t a lk i ng in g en er a l – y ou kn o w.


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h a t on e w o u l d ne e d t o s ta r t a

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

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t e l ev i s i o n s ta t io n . I sa id …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A l r ig h t , b e fo re …

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : N az ee m I a m p r e pa re d to he l p yo u

pe o p l e – yo u k n ow. W ha t i s h is t o r i ca l? T h e SABC s ta r t e d o f f i n 19 7 9 .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Pr i o r t o t ha t A f r i ca n M i r r o r f o o ta g e –

so th e r e i s n o th i ng h i s t o r ic a l ab o u t SABC foo ta ge w ha ts o ev er.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A l r ig h t . J us t a m i n u te p l e as e

M r Sc o t t .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Ye s h e m i gh t t u r n a ro u nd a n d s ay t o 10

m e bu t w h a t a bo u t t h e re le a se o f Ne l so n M an d e l a . T h a t i s n o t

h is t o r ic a l .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t h as g o t to be de a l t w i t h th e

SABC a l on e . I t h e lp s t o – w e l l – a s a m a t te r o f f ac t Re u te rs , ITN h as

go t f a r b e t te r f o o ta g e o f th e r e l e as e o f Ne l so n M an d e l a th a n t h e SABC .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . Mr Sc o t t ju s t …

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sor ry.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . J us t a m in u te p l e as e . I

a m s or r y M r Ch a i rp e r so n Mr Sc o t t ha s i nd ic a te d th a t h e i s h a r d o f 20

he ar in g . So w e m i gh t j us t h av e a s l i g h t p r ob l e m .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ok ay. N o th a t i s f in e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes , y es t ha nk yo u . J us t ho w

d i d M r H o wa g e t to k no w ab o u t y o u o r h ow d id t h a t m e e t i ng b e tw e e n

t he two o f y ou h ap p en ?

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

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M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I g o t a ca l l f r o m th e se c re ta ry o f t h e

Ac t i ng C EO a t th a t s t a g e M r H la u d i M o ts oe n e ng a n d sh e sa i d t o m e

S i as H l au d i w o u l d l i ke t o s ee yo u .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I s a id w he n . Sh e s a i d t o m e

t o m or r o w m or n i n g 9 o ’ c l ock . So t h e n ex t m o rn i ng 9 o ’ c l oc k I w en t u p

t o h is o f f i c e . H e wa s no t t h e r e . H e g o t s t uck i n t r a f f i c i n Sa n d to n a nd

we l l e ve r yb o dy kn o ws m e a , I d o n o t w ork A f r i c a t i m e . I f a n

ap p o i n tm e n t i s fo r 9 o ’ c l oc k i t i s 9 o ’ c l oc k n o t f i ve p as t n i n e . I t u r ne d

a r ou n d an d I sa i d to h e r d o m e a f a vo ur I a m n o t g o i ng t o w as te t he 10

SABC s t i m e a nd m y t i m e . I a m g o in g b ack t o t h e o f f i c e . W h en h e

a r r i v es p h on e m e .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I w as b as i ca l l y o n m y wa y d o wn to

m y o f f i c e w he n h e p h o ne d m e a nd h e a po l og is ed an d he s a i d t o m e

so r r y I a m l a te b u t I a m i n t he o f f i c e n o w. So I w en t b ac k t o h i s o f f i ce

an d h e wa n ted t o kn o w ho w th e s a l e o f a rc h i ve m a te r i a l w ork s . So I

ex p l a i n ed t o h i m y o u h av e go t do re se arc h – yo u k n ow. Yo u ha ve g o t t o

t r an s fe r i t f r o m o r i g i na l to c o py.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Sor ry. Sor ry M r Sc o t t . L e t u s 20

t ak e th a t p ro ce ss s l ow ly b ec a us e y ou d ea l w i t h th a t p r oc ess in

pa ra gr a ph 7 o n w ard s o f y o ur s ta te m e n t .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : O ka y.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : J us t d es c r i b e i t s l o w ly t o t h e

Ch a i r pe r so n . H o w d o es th a t p ro ce ss wo rk ?

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M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Ok ay. L e t m e s ta r t f r o m th e

be g in n i n g . I s ta r t i n t he p ro ce ss . A , I wa n t a n e m a i l f r o m th e c l ie n t

re qu es t in g m a te r ia l . T h e c l i e n t m us t t e l l m e ex ac t ly w h a t t h e m a te r i a l

w i l l be us e d fo r . T h en I w i l l qu o te t h e c l i en t a nd i f t h e c l i en t acc e p ts

t he qu o ta t i on t he n o n l y w i l l I go fu r t h e r b y do i ng r es e arc h o n w h a t t he

c l i e n t w a n ts a nd t h en a r ra n ge f o r t h e c l i e n t to co m e i n a nd se l ec t th e

m a te r i a l . O u r c o nv ers a t i o n l as ted a b ou t 10 m i n u te s m ax i m u m a n d he

sa i d t o m e Si a s ex p ec t a ca l l f r o m so m e o n e w h o n e ed s fo o ta g e a n d th a t

i s th e la s t h e ar d I h av e he ar d f r o m M r M o ts o en e ng a b ou t t he d e a l w i t h

AN N 7 an d I ca n n o t r ec a l l i f i t w as t he s a m e a f t e rn o o n o r t he n ex t d ay 10

t ha t M r Ho w a p ho n ed m e , ask e d t o s e e m e , m a de an a p po i n tm e n t . H e

ca m e in ab o u t t h e n ex t da y I w ou l d sa y. We s a t i n my o f f i ce a nd w e

d is cu ss e d th e w ho le p r oc es s an d I t he n e m a i l e d h i m a q uo ta t i o n wh ic h

he acc e p te d a n d I w ou ld sa y a bo u t t h r e e d ays la te r a ge n t l e m a n b y t h e

na m e o f Ra h u l w as s en t to m e t o s ta r t se l ec t i n g t he m a te r i a l a n d in th e

m e a nw h i l e I – th e f ou r t h p e rs on w h o wa s an i n te r n . I m a n a ge d t o g e t

ap p o i n ted p er m a n e n t . M o lo ko v e ry, v e ry b r i g h t ge n t l e m a n . H e d id h is

M a s te r s i n b e tw e en d o i n g in h is i n t e r ns h i p . I d o n o t k no w h e m a n ag e d

t o d o i t b u t he d i d .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : I s t ha t M r M o l ok o M as er u m u l e ? 20

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : M a se ru m u le .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a . He t h en s ta r t e d to w ork

pe r m an e n t ly i n t h e n e ws ag e ncy d ep ar tm e n t a n d I ex p la in e d to h i m

wh a t Na ze e m w an te d a n d I s a i d t o M o l o ko as p er a l l o u r c l i en t s yo u

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

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ha ve go t to s i t w i t h wh o ev er c o m es i n . I w i l l h e l p y ou w i t h re se ar ch .

D r aw the ta p es – m a ke s u r e t h a t i f t he a pp o in tm e n t i s 9 o ’ c l oc k 9 o ’

c lo ck h e s ta r t s . T he t a pe s m us t be re a d y a nd R a hu l f r o m AN N7 k ep t

h is t i m e o n t h e s p o t . A l w ays a r r i v e d o n t i m e l i ke M o l ok o an d t he y

s ta r t ed t o w ork .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . Le t us j us t g o ba ck

s l i g h t ly. Yo u h av e n o t t o l d t he - t h e Ch a i r pe r so n w h a t i s i t th a t

M r H o wa sa i d to yo u he w a n te d . Yo u h a ve no t d esc r i be d ex ac t ly th e

co n te n t t h a t h e a c tu a l l y w an te d .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : M r H ow a s a i d t o m e S i as c a n y ou 10

he l p u s w i t h m a te r i a l t o s ta r t o f f a n ew c ha n n e l in So u th A f r i c a an d I

i m m e d i a te ly s a i d t o h i m N a ze e m a t t h a t s t ag e t h e l a te Ne ls o n M a n d e l a

wa s v e ry s i ck . I s a id t o h i m a , y ou c an n o t g o o n a i r w i t ho u t m a te r i a l o f

M r N e l so n M a n de la a nd h e a gr e ed . I a ls o s a i d to h i m y o u ca n n o t s t a r t

a ch a n ne l i f yo u do no t ha ve g oo d v i su a ls o f a l l th e m a j o r c i t i es o f

So u th A f r i c a – P re to r ia , B l oe m fo n te i n , C ap e To w n , D ur b an an d y o u

na m e i t an d he a gr ee d an d M a r ik a na w a s q u i t e i n th e p r ess a t th a t

s t a ge an d I sa id t o h i m M a r i k an a f o o ta g e w e ha ve go t an d h e s a i d t o

m e ja S i as a ny r i o t s – a ny p r o tes ts y o u na m e i t . T h a t w as b as ic a l l y

wh a t we d i sc uss e d . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: So h e w an te d a w i d e r a ng e o f

m a te r i a l?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : A w i de r an g e o f f o o ta g e . No t o n ly –

as a m a t te r o f f ac t i t w ou l d h av e b ee n a p le as ur e i f h e a sk ed m e 2 0 00

m i nu tes o f N e ls on M a n de l a on ly b ec a us e w e ha ve go t o ve r 20 0 0

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m i nu tes o f N e l so n M a n de la .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : S ta r t i n g w i t h t ap es 4 5 75 w h i ch is t h e

re l e as e o f N e l so n M a nd e la . 4 58 9 h i s s pe e ch – Gr an d Pa ra d e Spe ec h –

go i ng o ve r on to 4 5 90 a n d t he n t h e n ex t on e w o u l d b e M a d i b a a r r i v i n g

in So we to – no t m uc h o f t ha t . O n ly th e Or l an d S tad iu m Sp e ec h . Ja ,

ne x t w e ek h e s p ok e a t K i n gs m e a d i n Du r ba n – t h ro w yo ur w e ap o ns in

t he s e a .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . So th e n a f t e r he th e n t o l d

yo u e xa c t ly wh a t he w an te d t h en y o u h a d a n i de a o f … 10

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I ha d a g oo d i d e a …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : O f wh a t he w an ted ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : O f w ha t t o re se ar ch f o r a n d y ou n a m e

i t a nd I a l so s a i d to h i m N a ze e m d o m e a f av our. Yo u p e op l e d isc us s i t

be tw ee n y ou . Te l l R ah u l o r w h oe ve r c o m e s i n t o b r i ng m e a l i s t o f w h a t

yo u t h in k yo u wa n t an d wh i l s t h e is h e re w ork in g on t he o the r s t u f f I w i l l

do t he re se arc h an d m ak e s u r e t h e ta p es a re th e r e .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I n e v er r ec e iv ed a l i s t f r o m th e m .

T he y d e pe n de d on m e co m p l e te ly. 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . So th e n – s o t h i s h ap p en s

be fo r e t h e r e is ne g o t i a t i on s a b ou t ho w m u ch th ey a r e g o i n g t o p ay, ho w

m u ch is i t go i ng t o c os t th e m b ec a us e y ou ha ve n o i de a o f t h e c on te n t

t ha t th ey w an te d?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Ad v oc a te le t us p u t i t t h is wa y t h e re

04 JUNE 2019 – DAY 105

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wa s n o d i f f e r e nc e i n p r ic e b e tw e e n wh a t ty p e o f c o n te n t a p r o du c t i on

ho us e o r a b r oa dc as te r w a n te d . T h e p r i ce w o u l d h av e r e m a in e d t h e

sa m e . I t i s us ed f o r b ro a dc as t p u r p os e s . So wh e ther t h ey w a n te d

M ar ik a na o r M a d ib a f oo ta ge o r W i nn ie f o o tag e o r – i t do es n o t m a t te r .

T he p r ic e w o u l d h av e r e m a i n e d t h e sa m e p er m in u te .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . C a n y o u go t o p ag e 1 7 o f

t ha t - o f yo ur s t a te m e n t? I t w i l l be u nd er a d iv id e r m a rk ed 3 .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : An d i t i s 3?


C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u m e an p ar agr a p h 1 7? 10

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Ye s ad v oc a te .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u s a i d pa g e 1 7 .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Pag e 1 7 Mr C ha i r m a n . Ye s ,

un d er i t e m – t h e d iv i de r m ark e d nu m b er 3 . I t i s Ann ex ur e J J S3 . I t i s

ca l l ed – w h a t i s th a t – w ha t i s t h a t M r Sc o t t ? H av e yo u f o un d i t? A r e

yo u t h e r e?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: H av e yo u f o un d i t ? Ha ve y o u

f ou n d t h e d oc u m e n t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : N u m b er 3 , ye s . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . W ha t i s i t ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I t i s a p r ice g u i d e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: I t i s a p r ic e gu id e . Is t ha t t h e

p r i ce g u i de o f th e SABC ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T ha t i s a p r i ce g u i d e fo r - fo r t h e s a l e

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o f s to ck fo o ta g e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes . C o u l d y o u j us t h ig h l i g h t

wh a t th e p r ic e is t ha t i s re le va n t fo r t he t r an sa c t i on t ha t y o u a r e t a lk i n g

ab o u t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Yo ur H o no ur a b l e I w a n t to s t a r t o f f by

po i n t i ng o u t th es e a r e p r i c e g u id es a n d n o t a s e t p r i ce l i s t . 1 A – R 1 0 0

pe r m i n u te o f f o o ta ge t r a ns fe r r ed an d ta k en a wa y. T h a t i s a s t a n dar d

p r i ce w h ic h we ask . I f y ou wa lk i n an d yo u w an t t o b uy 1 0 m i n u tes y ou

wo u ld h av e p a i d R1 0 00 p l us VAT.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , a l r ig h t . Ok ay, l e t u s lo ok 10

a t t h e n ex t on e . W h a t i s t h a t f o r - th a t R5 00 p er h o ur ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : O k ay. I t wa s agr e e d f ro m B t o D t o

wa iv e i t a n d i t w as a ls o a gr e ed be tw ee n J i m m y M a t the ws a nd m ys e l f to

de v i a te f r o m R 10 0 pe r m i n u te t o R 7 0 p er m i nu te .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . Ye s , w e a r e n o t t h e r e y e t .

We a r e g e t t in g t o t ha t b u t I j us t w a n t y o u to e xp l a i n t o th e – t o th e

Ch a i r pe r so n . Yo u ha ve t o l d u s t h e R 1 0 0 p er m in u te i f y ou t r a ns fe r a n d

yo u t ak e aw ay w ha t i s th e R5 0 0 p er ho ur ? W ha t i s th a t f o r ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : O ka y. T he R5 0 0 p er ho ur Yo ur

Ho n o ura b le i s b as i ca l l y i f a c l i e n t c o m e s i n a nd we h a d t h a t a lo t o f 20

t i m e s th a t s o m e b od y w o u l d c o m e in , s i t i n f r on t o f a m on i to r , w as te tw o ,

t h re e , fo u r ho ur s i n t h e e d i t s u i t e an d d o n o t p ay. So th e R5 0 0 p er

ho ur p a r t t h e r eo f wa s t o us e t h e e d i t s u i t e o f t h e SA BC .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t wa s a t e ch n i ca l c h ar ge t o u se a

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– b ec a us e y ou ha ve g o t t o r e m e m b er th e r e a re tw o m a c h i ne s .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h er e i s a m a c h i n e t h a t c o p i es an d

t he n th e r e i s a m ac h in e wh er e y ou p u t yo u r m a s te r t ap es in .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : So y o u ne e d ed tw o m a c h i ne s a nd t h e

R5 0 0 w as t o c op y f ro m ta p e – m as te r t ap e t o co py t ap e .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : To co py ta p e ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : H m .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A l r ig h t an d t h en i f – i f I co m e to 10

t he SA BC a nd I a m th e on e wh o w an ts m a te r i a l a nd I w ou ld c o m e a n d

s i t d o wn w i t h y ou o r Mr M a s eru m u l e . So f o r th e t i m e t ha t I h av e c o m e

in t he r e an d I a m s i t t i ng a nd I a m c o py i n g th e m a te r i a l f r o m th e m as te r

t ap e o n to th e c op y t ap e . So yo u w o u l d c ha rg e f o r t h a t t i m e . Th a t i s

wh a t th e R5 0 0 is f o r ?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , a l r ig h t . T h en l e t u s m o ve

on t o t h e R 1 5 0 p er 10 i t e m s .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : C l i e n ts w o u l d s en d i n a l i s t o f 3 0 0

i t e m s wh ic h t h ey t h i nk t he y m ig h t n e e d . Yo u k n ow to do r es e arc h on 20

30 0 i te m s t ak es a l i t t l e b i t o f t i m e . So w e ha ve t r i ed t o r es t r i c t t he m to

be sp ec i f i c by c h ar g i n g t h e m R1 5 0 p er 10 i t e ms o r pa r t t he re o f .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , a l r i gh t . So t h is i s a l l s tu f f

t ha t wo u ld go o n to t he ( i n t e r ve n es ) ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a t ha t i s a l l t ec h n i ca l c os ts .

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A l l t ec h n ic a l c os t s an d t h en y o u

ha ve g o t t h e m i n on e – i n D .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : D .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : O k ay. I n th e c as e o f ANN 7 the y

b r ou g h t i n t h e i r o w n co py t a pe s b u t i f a c l i en t w an ts t h e m a te r i a l on a

D VC PR O F or m a t t he n we j us t R 1 5 0 a n d we p r ov id e t he co py o r t he

SABC p ro v i d es th e c o py.

A D V TH A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A l r ig h t a n d t he n we de a l in E ,

F, G w i t h c o py r i gh t . C ou l d y o u ex p la i n t o t h e C h a i r p e rs o n w ha t th es e 10

co py r ig h ts a r e f o r ?

M R J O SIA S J O H A N N ES SC O T T : J a , E r e p ro d uc t i o n c o m p a ny o r

an yb o dy f o r t ha t sa ke , m a k es a p ro gr a m a nd i t ’s be i ng b r o ad ca s t o n t h e

SABC o n l y, th e n we c h arg e l ess f o r c op y r ig h t , we c ha rg e R 7 50 p er 3 0

sec o nd s . I f a c l ie n t w a lk s i n , a ( i n d i s t i n c t ) w a l ks in , sa ys I s a w th is

be a u t i f u l c h urc h s e rv ic e ab o u t t e n y e ars ag o on T V, I w o u ld l i ke t o

sh ow i t t o m y c on gr e ga t io n , ca n I h av e a co py p l ea se . I w ou ld th e n

ex p l a i n t o h i m i t ’s a l l y ou r v is ua l p r es en ta t io n , i n o the r wor ds y ou s ho w

i t t o m or e t h an o ne p er so n an d yo u ’ re g o i n g to h av e t o p ay R 5 00 f o r 3 0

sec o nd s c op y r i g h t . 20

Ok ay t h en w e g e t t o t he m o n ey s id e o f i t , co py r ig h t , o p po s i t io n

b r oa dc as te rs , N C A, D ST V, ( I nd is t i nc t ) Ve ra , AN N 7 as w e l l , we wo u l d

ch ar ge R 2 0 0 0 p er 3 0 s ec o nd s c op y r i g h t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : So th es e a r e yo ur c o m p e t i t o rs ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t i s ou r co m p e t i t o r s .

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A D V TH A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes , a l r ig h t a n d t he n

. . . ( i n te rv en t io n )

M R J O SIA S J O H A NN ES SC O T T : An d Ca r te B l an ch e t h ey o n ly r e as o n

wh y th ey p a i d m or e , R 2 75 0 , i s b ec a us e th ey s t r e a m a l l th e i r , t he C ar te

B l an ch e p ro gr a m s , I c ha rg e t h e m R 75 0 pe r 3 0 se co n ds to pu t i t on

Yo u Tu b e o r w he re ver t h ey l i k e t o .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N OR M A N SC: Ye s a nd y ou ’v e g o t d i f f e r en t

p r i c i n g f o r ov ers e as b ro a dc as te rs ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Par d on ?

A D V T H A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yo u h av e , s o r ry, yo u h av e 10

d i f f e r en t p r i c i n g f o r ov ers e as b ro a dc as te rs ?

M R J O SIA S J O H A N N ES SC O T T : J a , ov ers e as b r o ad ca s te r s w e q uo te

i t i n to U S D o l la r o r Eur o o r Pou n d d ep e n d i n g on y ou k no w w h er e th e

b r oa dc as te rs a r e f ro m .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s a n d – b u t f o r t he pur p os es

o f yo ur t es t i m o ny t h es e a r e no t r e l ev a n t , a m I r ig h t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sor r y?

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : F o r t h e p urp o se s o f y ou r

ev i d e nc e t h e o ver se as p r ic es a re n o t r e le v an t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : No d e f i n i t e ly n o t . 20

A D V TH A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes , a n d t he n i f y ou tu rn ov er

t he p a ge a t pa g e 1 8 y o u ha ve ad ve r t i s i ng us e wa s t ha t r e l ev an t to

AN N 7?

M R J O SIA S J O H A NN ES SC O T T : N o Na ze e m ex p l a i n e d t o m e th a t

t he y ’ r e g o in g t o us e i t in So u th A f r i c a on l y a nd t he re w as no r e as on t o

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do u b t h i m . As f a r as I kn o w, no b od y ha s t o l d m e o r s h ow e d m e

o th er w i se , as fa r as I k n ow th ey o n ly u se d ou r f o o ta g e i n So u th A f r i ca .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ms N or m a n ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s M r C h a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : D on ’ t y ou n e ed f r o m th is w i tn es s o n ly wh a t wa s –

wh a t w er e t he t e r m s o f t h e a r r an g e m e n t be twe e n SABC a n d AN N7 , i f he

kn ow s t he m , w ha t wa s t he n or m , w ha t w er e t he n or m a l t e r m s . Wa s

t he r e a d ev i a t i on f r o m tho se t e r m s , h o w m uc h d ev ia t i on w as th e r e , w h a t

wa s t h e j us t i f i c a t i on f o r th e de v i a t i o n , i f an y. Do w e n e ed a ny th i ng

m or e th a n th a t? 10

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : N o M r C h a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : L e t ’s g e t t h a t .

A D V T H A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A l r ig h t t h an k y o u es p ec ia l l y

be ca us e he ’s s t ru g g l in g to h ea r …( in te r ve n t io n ) .

C HA IR PER SO N : We ’ r e g o in g to o m uc h r ou n d ab o u t le t ’s g e t t o i t .

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes th a nk y ou . N o w th en M r

Ho w a c o m es t o y o u a n d t h e n y ou sa id yo u g av e h i m a q uo ta t i o n , w h a t

wa s t h e q u o ta t io n th a t y o u g av e h i m ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W i t h ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yo u g av e h i m a qu o ta t io n . 20

M R J O SIA S J O H A NN ES SC O T T : J a I ga ve a qu o ta t i on o n ly a f t e r I

ha d a c ha t to o u r C E , C h i e f Exe c u t iv e o f n e ws J i m m y M a t th e ws a n d I

sa i d to h i m , J i m m y – I w as e xc i t e d b ec au se A ) , w e ’ ve ne ver s o l d 2 0 0 0

m i nu tes o f f oo ta ge t o o ne c l ie n t an d I kn ew i t w as go i ng t o b e a b ig

de a l an d w e c ha t t ed an d ch a t t ed a n d ch a t te d a n d w e d ec i d ed ok ay n o

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f i n e , in s te ad o f c h ar g i ng R1 0 0 p er m i n u te w e ’ r e g o i n g t o ch ar g e R 70

pe r m in u te . I w e n t b ac k a n d I e m a i le d h i m , Na ze e m H o w a, I sa i d t o

h i m , t h i s i s t he b es t I ca n do , an d he c a m e ba ck a n d s a i d , a cc ep ted .

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s a nd t he n wh a t a b ou t th e

R5 0 0 fo r … ( in te rv e n t i o n ) .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : N o th a t w e w a iv ed , we d ec i d ed n o t

t o c ha rg e i t b e ca us e i f I h a d t o ad d t ha t , I w ou ld h av e ch as e d th e m

aw ay co m p l e te ly.

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A l r ig h t ca n y o u ju s t t a l k t r y

an d … ( i n te rv en t io n ) . 10

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t w h a t w as wr o ng w i t h t h a t , w as n ’ t y our – w as n ’ t

yo ur j o b t o c h arg e … ( i n te rv en t i on ) .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sor r y?

C HA IR PER SO N : Was n ’ t y our j o b to c h ar ge a cc ord i ng t o t h e p r i ce

gu i de , wa s y our jo b no t t o ch ar g e a cc ord i n g t o th e p r i ce g u i de

M R J O SIA S J O H A NN ES SC O T T : I t wa s Yo ur H o n our a b l e b u t i f I do

ge t th e p er m is s i on f r o m w h oe ve r i s i n ch ar ge o f o ve ra l l n e ws a n d

J i m m y s a i d , l e t ’s w a iv e i t .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d w ha t re as o n d i d M r M a t t he ws a dv a nc e fo r s ay in g

t ha t R5 0 0 p er ho ur s h o u l d b e wa iv ed ? 20

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sor r y I ’ ve go t a h e ar i n g p r o b l e m .

C HA IR PER SO N : O k ay I ’ m s o r r y, I wa s t o l d y o u do h av e a he ar in g

p r ob le m , l e t m e t r y a n d ra is e m y vo ic e . C an yo u h e ar m e no w ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : A l i t t le b i t be t t e r.

C HA IR PER SO N : Ok ay m ay be l e t m e b r i n g t he m ic c l os er , t h is m ic ca n

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s t i l l n o t c o m e c lo ser , y ou m u s t m a ke a r r a ng e m e n ts l e t ’s se e i f I p u l l i t .

W h at w as t he r e as on t h a t M r M a t t he ws ga ve as t o w hy yo u s h ou l d

wa iv e th e R5 0 0 p er ho ur ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Yo ur H on o ur ab l e th e r e w as n o

re as on g iv en w h a ts oe ver. We c h a t te d a bo u t th e s iz e o f t he d e a l a n d he

– I ca n r ec a l l h i m ev en s a y i ng i t ’ s g o i n g t o be a b ig j ob .

C HA IR PER SO N : I t ’s a b i g j ob f r o m th e s i d e o f SABC … ( i n te rv en t io n ) .

M R J O SIA S J O H A N N ES SC O T T : We l l t he b ig j ob b ec a m e m y b i g jo b

bu t i t w a s p ar t o f m y w or k th a t I ha d t o d o in a ny ev e n t , n o , n o r e as on s

wa s g iv en , q u i t e f ra nk ly, y ou k n ow, I t h i nk a ny b od y i n t ha t po s i t i o n 10

wo u ld h av e d o ne i t .

C HA IR PER SO N : Wo u l d h av e ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Wo u l d ha ve d on e wh a t J i m m y d i d .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s w hy do yo u s ay t ha t?

M R J O SIA S J O H A NN ES SC O T T : A t t h a t s t ag e , w h a t go es t h r o ug h

on e ’s m in d , yo u ’v e g o t 14 0 00 0 ra n d i m m e d i a te ly i f y ou f i n i sh th e 2 0 00

m i nu tes a t R 70 pe r m i n u te , w hy wo r ry ab o u t a n a dd i t i o na l

R3 0 00 0 /R4 0 00 0 , g e t th e R1 4 0 0 0 0 i n a sa p .

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t w as t he r e a r e qu es t f r o m the c l i e n t f o r t h e

R5 0 0 .0 0 to b e w a i ve d ? 20

M R J O SIA S J O H A N N ES SC O T T : I f I ’ v e g o t co p i es o f a l l t he pa ck i n g

s l i ps I c a n wo rk o u t th a t w e d i d n o t l os e a l l th a t m u ch m o ne y. R au l d i d

no t c a m e i n a ny d ay s o n o t a l l th os e m a ny h o urs wer e s pe n t i n t h e e d i t

f ee ds , wh a t we d i d w as , M a l ok o wo u ld p a rk t h e t a p es w h er e h e wo u ld

s ta r t a n d s e l ec t f r o m s o … ( i n te rv en t io n ) .

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C HA IR PER SO N : No , n o t h e q u es t i o n wa s , wa s t h e r e a r e q ue s t f r o t he

c l i e n t f o r th e R5 0 0 .0 0 to b e w a i ve d ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : No n o t a t a l l .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ok ay t ha nk y o u .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes th a nk y o u Mr Ch a i r m a n I

be g o ur p a r d on , I t ho u gh t y ou wer e s ay i n g s o m e th i n g e l se . No w i f w e

t ak e - f r o m wh a t y o u h a ve d esc r i be d ea r l ie r , be ca us e t he y d i dn ’ t g iv e

yo u a l i s t o f w ha t t h ey w an te d , s o i t w o u l d m e a n t ha t w he n M r R a u l

co m e s an d m e ets w i t h M r M a l ok o – Mr ( i nd is t i n c t ) t he y w ou ld ha ve to

s i t d o wn a nd s i f t t h r o ug h th e c o n te n t t h a t t he y w a n te d . 10

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : V i ew a nd t r a ns fe r.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: V i ew a nd t r an s fe r , s o t h a t

wo u ld h av e t ak e n h o urs , a m I r i g h t?

M R J O SIA S J O H A NN ES SC O T T : T ha t ’s – c o u l dn ’ t h av e t ak en t h e m

m or e th a n 4 0 ho ur s i n t o ta l . Ad vo ca te y ou ’v e g o t to r e m e m b er t he y

on ly t o ok a w ay 3 3 h our s in t o ta l , 3 3 ,0 3 h ou r i n t o ta l , t h a t ’s wh a t t he y

t oo k a w ay, 1 98 2 m i n u tes , t h a t wo u l d g ive y ou 3 3 .03 h o urs . Yo u

t r an s fe r – a m i nu te t r an s fe r t o a m i nu te , s o i t w ou ld h av e t ak en t h e m –

t he t a pe m i g h t s t o p e j ec t a t a pe p u t a n e w tap e in t h a t w ou l d wa s te a

l i t t l e b i t o f t i m e , 33 h our s w o u l d n ’ t h av e t ak en t he m m o r e t h an 4 0 /4 5 20

ho ur s m a x i m u m .

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s b u t t h e 3 3 h our s m u l t ip l i e d

by 50 0 wo u l d ha ve s t i l l b e en – h a ve be e n a g o od r ev e nu e f o r t h e SABC .

M R J O SIA S J O H A NN ES SC O T T : 33 Ho ur s t ha t w o u l d h av e b ee n

R1 6 50 0 .

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A D V TH A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s do y o u r e g ard t ha t a s

ins i gn i f i c a n t?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: D o y ou r e ga rd t h a t a m o u n t as

ins i gn i f i c a n t?

M R J O SIA S J O H A N N ES SC O T T : We l l i ns tea d o f l os i ng a d ea l , y o u

kn ow I r eg ar d th a t a m o u n t a s m in or r e a l l y.

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t w h o s a i d y ou w ere g o i n g t o l os e a d ea l ?

M R J O SIA S J O H A N N ES SC O T T : W h en M r H o w a c a m e to se e m e h e

wa s t a l k i ng ab o u t , t he r e ’s n o t m uc h m o n ey y ou k no w a n d d i f f i c u l t t i m e s 10

an d a l l t h a t…( in te rv e n t i o n ) .

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t h e n ev er ask e d fo r a d is co u n t .


C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t h e n ev er a sk ed f o r a d isc o un t , h e n ev er ask e d f o r

yo u t o wa iv e a ny th i n g is n ’ t i t?

M R J O SIA S J OH A N N ES SC O T T : N o yo u ’ r e q u i t e r i g h t w e ju s t g av e

i t .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ja w i t h ou t be i ng ask e d .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W i t h ou t b e in g a sk e d .

A D V T H A ND I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T ha nk y ou M r C h a i r m a n . 20

W h ere is t he – d i d y o u th e n c on c l u de a n a gr ee m e n t w i t h h i m o the r t h an

t he qu o ta t i on t ha t y o u sp ok e ab o u t , w as t he r e an ag re e m e n t t h a t w as

co nc l u d ed b e tw e en t he SABC a n d AN N7 ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I ca n n o t re ca l l a h u nd re d p er ce n t i f

t he r e w as a l e ga l b i nd in g c o n t r ac t o r i f we on ly w ork e d o n t he e m a i ls as

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an a gr ee m e n t .

A D V TH A N DI V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A l r ig h t , le t ’s j us t ta lk a b ou t

t ha t , w h o w o u l d h av e re fe r r e d – b ec a us e I u n de rs tan d y ou ha ve a l eg a l

de p ar tm e n t a m I r i g h t , w h o wo u ld h av e r e fe r re d t he se t e r m s t ha t y o u

ag re e d o n w i t h M r Ho w a to t he l eg a l d ep ar tm e n t f o r th e m to d r a f t an

ag re e m e n t , w h o ’s re sp o ns ib i l i t y w as i t?

M R J O SIA S J O H A N N ES SC O T T : I t w a s qu i te a b ig d e pa r tm e n t a nd i f

yo u re q u es t a c o n t r ac t , i t w o u l d b e r e fe r r ed t o o n e o f t he le g a l pe o p l e

t ha t ’s n o t a l l t h a t bu sy, qu i te a c ou p l e o f p e o p l e c o u l d d r aw u p t he

co n t ra c t . 10

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s b u t w h o m us t t ak e th e f i r s t

s t e p , t ha t , p l e as e d r a w u p th e c o n t ra c t .

M R J O SIA S J O H A N N ES SC O T T : M y de pa r tm e n t h ad t o ta ke t h e f i r s t

s t e p .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s d id yo ur de p ar tm e n t d o

t ha t?

M R J O SIA S J O H A N N ES SC O T T : I c a n no t re ca l l w h e th er w e d i d o r

no t .

A D V TH A N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ok ay b u t as y o u a r e s i t t in g

t he r e no w ha ve yo u be e n a b l e t o l oc a te , f r o m the t i m e y ou s o ld t o AN N 7 20

t i l l t o da y, a l t h o ug h y o u ’ r e ou t o f e m p l oy m en t n ow, ha ve y ou ev er b ee n

ab l e to l oc a te a c o n t ra c t up o n w h ic h yo u s a i d , lo ok t h is i s w h a t – th os e

a r e th e t e r m s o f t h e c o n t ra c t an d t h i s i s h o w th i ng s a r e go i ng t o b e

do n e .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : S i nc e th is th i ng s ta r t ed a dv oc a te I

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ha ve no t ap pr o ac he d t h e SA BC fo r a ny th i ng , th e g o od w ork w as do n e

by Dr An th on y a n d a l l th is c o p i es o f s t u f f wh ic h y ou se e h er e wa s d on e

by y o ur i nv es t i g a to r , I d id n o t a p pro ac h th e SABC fo r a ny th i ng .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N OR M A N SC : Be fo r e yo u l e f t – bu t d i d y o u

ev er h av e s ig h t o f a n a gr ee m e n t… ( i n te rv e n t i on ) .

M R J O SIA S J O H A NN ES SC O T T : Q u i t e f ra nk ly be fo r e I l e f t , y o u

kn ow, S ta te Ca p tu re – b e i n g ca l l e d t o t h e S ta te Ca p tu re , th a t w as th e

las t t h in g o n m y m i n d . I s a w a s m a l l a r t i c le i n t h e ne ws p ap er s ab o u t

t he b o ok an d I t h i nk i t w as t he Be e l d n e ws pa p er s t a t i n g th a t t he y ’ ve g o t

f oo tag e f o r a ha m b ur g er a nd M a l ok o an d M a l ok o c a m e b ack , h a , h a , ha , 10

ha , y o u k no w.

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s I t h i nk we m u s t t ak e t he ad j ou rn m e n t .

A D V T H AN D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s I t h in k s o , t h an k y ou M r

Ch a i r.

C HA IR PER SO N : W h e n w e c o m e ba ck w e ne e d t o t r y an d wr ap u p .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s w e ’ l l do t ha t .

C HA IR PER SO N : We ’ l l ta ke t h e l u nc h a d j o u rn m e n t a n d we w i l l c o m e

ba ck a t 2 o ’c lo ck we a d j ou rn .

IN Q UIRY AD J O U RN S

IN Q UIRY R ESU M E S 20

C HA IR PER SO N : A r e y ou r e ad y? T h an k y ou .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T ha nk yo u M r C ha i r . M r Sco t t

co u l d y ou tu rn t o p ag e 6 p a ra gr a ph 15 o f yo ur a f f i da v i t - p a r ag ra p h

1 - 5?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : N u m b er 6?

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , pa g e 6 …

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : 1 - 5?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Pa ra gra p h 1 -5 .

C HA IR PER SO N : T ha t i s p a r a gr ap h 1 -5 o n wh a t p a ge ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Pa ge 6 Mr C ha i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ok ay. O f h is s t a te m e n t?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: O f - o f h i s s t a te m e n t y es . In

t ha t pa ra gr ap h y o u s ay th a t :

“To y o ur r ec o l l ec t io n th is wa s t h e f i r s t t i m e th a t a

d is co u n t h a d e ver b ee n o f fe r e d . ” 10

Is t ha t c o r r ec t?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: N o , p l ea se an sw er a y es o r a

no .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes , th a nk y o u a n d t h e n y ou

a ls o s ay t ha t :

“T h e d isc u ss i o ns be tw ee n yo urs e l f a n d M r H o w a

we re h ap p en i ng v i a e m a i l . ”

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t i s c o r r ec t . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: An d i s i t c o r r ec t t ha t t h e r e i s no

ag re e m e n t – w r i t te n a gr ee m e n t t ha t y ou a r e a wa re o f t ha t w as

co nc l u d ed w i t h h i m ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : C or r ec t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , th a nk y ou . N o w i f yo u go

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t o p a r a gra p h 1 7 - sa m e p a ge – wh a t do yo u s ay i n p a ra gr a ph 1 7? C a n

yo u j us t r ea d th a t i n to t h e re cor d ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h a t d o I s ay ab o u t p a r agr a p h?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : 1 7 , y es .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I t i s 10 0 per ce n t c o r r ec t i t to ok

ap pr ox i m a te ly a m o n th to d o a l l t he w ork .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I t i s 10 0 p erc e n t c o r r ec t as s ta ted i n

pa ra gr a ph 1 7 .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : So i t i s c o r r ec t? 10


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: So i t t o ok ov er a m o n th a n d y ou

d i d n o t c h arg e fo r t h e m us in g th e bo o th d u r in g th a t pe r i od ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I t t o ok qu i te a wh i l e t o se arc h a n d

ge t t he c o r re c t f oo ta ge , y es .


C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u sa y t h e t r a ns fe r t o a rch iv e f o o ta g e is i t a t r an s fe r

t o a r ch iv e f oo tag e o r i s i t a t r an s fe r o f t h e a rc h iv e t o s o m e th i ng e ls e?

D i d I sp e ak s o f t l y ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Ye s . 20

C HA IR PER SO N : O ka y. In pa r a gr ap h 1 7 o f yo ur s t a te m e n t y ou t a lk

ab o u t th e t ra ns fe r t o a rc h i ve f o o tag e . I a m a sk i n g wh e the r i t w as a

t r an s fe r o f th e a rc h iv e fo o tag e t o so m e th in g .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : To a c o p y t ap e Yo ur H on o ur ab l e .

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t w as i t a t ra ns fe r o f t he a rc h iv e f o o ta g e n o t t o ?

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : N o t to .

C HA IR PER SO N : Is t h a t r i g h t?


C HA IR PER SO N : Ok ay, a l r ig h t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , t ha nk y ou M r Ch a i rp e r so n

an d i n th e f o l lo w i n g p ar a gr ap h y o u d ea l w i t h t h e p ac k i n g s l ip s .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t i s c o r r ec t a dv oc a te .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: S or ry, w h en y ou r es po n d y o u

m u s t a lw ay s s ay – re sp o nd t o t h e Ch a i rp e rso n . I a m n o t s u r e w he th er

he h ea rd t ha t . 10

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t i s c o r r ec t Ch a i rp e rs o n .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes , t ha nk y ou v e ry m u ch . I n

t ha t p a r a gr ap h y ou – i f y o u co u l d j us t re ad a f t e r th e p ac ka g e s l i p

JJ S08 1 . Yo u sa y th e r e y o u a c tu a l l y ch ar ge t h e m fo r 19 8 2 m i nu tes o f

f oo tag e bu t y o u ch ar g e f o r th e en t i re p r i ce fo r t he 2 00 0 m in u tes . Is

t ha t wh a t y ou d i d ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t i s c o r r ec t Ch a i rp e rs o n .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes . C ou l d yo u j us t q u ick ly

t ak e us t h ro u g h t h e m i n u te s t ha t a r e re f le c ted on t he t ab l e t h a t y o u s ee

t he r e ? 20

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : O n 1 7 J u l y t h ey t o ok 4 4 m i nu tes

aw ay. 18 Ju ly 34 m i nu tes a nd …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: S or ry. I t h in k t he m in u tes a r e

un d er du r a t i o n .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h e m in u te s a r e ?

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : U n de r d u r a t i on .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a t ha t i s t he d ur a t i on j a .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes , y es yo u m us t r ea d f r o m

tha t fo r t h e re co rd .

C HA IR PER SO N : C a n y ou s e e t h e c o l u m n th a t i s w r i t t e n d es c r i p t i o n o f

go o ds ? C a n yo u s e e t h a t c o l u m n ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : C an I j u s t g o t h r ou g h t he p ac k i n g s l i p

qu ick ly C ha i r pe rs on ? I f y o u d o no t m i nd . I j us t wa n t to c h eck …


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: I f y o u go u n d er e i g h t - t he 10

d iv i de r m ar ke d e ig h t . T ha t i s wh er e t h e pa ck i n g s l ip s a r e . H av e yo u

f ou n d i t Mr Sc o t t ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I a m wh a t?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ju s t lo ok a t t h e d iv id e r m a rk ed

e i g h t .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J J S5 .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I j us t wa n t t o c he ck th a t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A l r ig h t , ok ay.

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : 2 40 m i n u te s . 20


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a , un d e r du ra t io n y o u w i l l se e …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Wh a t t h ey h av e t ak e n a wa y. 1 7 J u l y

24 0 m i n u tes a n d i t go es r i g h t t h r o ug h t i l l 2 2 Au g us t – th e la s t t i m e t he y

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we re t he re – 4 0 m i nu tes . T ha t i s t h e d ur a t io n w h ic h t h ey to ok a wa y.

C HA IR PER SO N : T ha t i s s ee m s to 2 2 A ug us t n o t t he 2 7 t h . I s th a t

r ig h t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : 2 2 Au g u s t .

C HA IR PER SO N : J a , t h e 2 2 n d . I t h ou g h t yo u sa id t he 2 7 t h . I a m s or r y

bu t c an y ou s e e th e c o l u m n th a t i s i m m e d i a te ly b e fo r e t he c o l u m n

wr i t t en d ur a t i on ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : D esc r i p t i on o f g o od s .



C HA IR PER SO N : T ha t o n e t he f i r s t i t e m the re is 44 D VC PR O . T ha t i s

t he de sc r ip t io n o f g oo ds . Ar e y o u a b l e to en l i g h te n m e m or e a s t o …

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I a m t r y i ng t o …

C HA IR PER SO N : W ha t th a t i s?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sor ry Ch a i r pe r so n b u t I a m t r y i n g

m ys e l f . I t i s a l i t t l e b i t c on fus i ng a t t h i s s t ag e …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : An d I w a n t t o s ee ex ac t ly wh a t …

C HA IR PER SO N : T ha t w as .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Ye s . 20


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h er e t he y g o t i t f r o m .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: M a y I ju s t h e l p yo u ? I f yo u t u r n

t o p ag e 2 2 – 2 2 o n t h e r i gh t ha n d co rn er . Th a t i s t he – I th i nk t h a t i s

wh a t y o u a re lo ok i ng f o r . Th a t w i l l s h o w yo u th e 24 0 m i nu tes a nd t ha t

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wi l l g iv e y o u t he d a te o f 1 7 J u l y 2 0 13 . T ha t i s t h e p ack in g s l ip t h a t

go es w i t h th a t i t e m .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h er e?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Pa ge 2 2 .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Pa g e 2 2 ?


C HA IR PER SO N : I t h i nk i f I un d ers ta nd h i m co r re c t ly.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s C ha i r pe rs on .

C HA IR PER SO N : H e is l oo k i n g fo r s o m e th i ng t h a t w i l l t e l l h i m w h a t t h a t

44 D VC PR O is … 10


C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t I m a y b e m is tak en .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . T h a t i s r e f l ec ted

M r C h a i r p e rs o n o n th e p ac k i n g s l ip . He is lo ok in g fo r a pa ck i n g s l i p .

C HA IR PER SO N : O h .



A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : C o u l d w e ass is t – co u ld … ?

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s , so m e b o dy c an as s is t h i m .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I do no t ha ve a p a g e 2 2 . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A l r ig h t , ok ay.

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Pa g e 7 , o h th a t o n e . Yo ur

Ho n o ura b le f r o m the …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Pac k i n g s l ip o ne w i l l s e e t h a t I

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s ig n e d o u t f o u r D VC PR O ta p es to t h e m …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h i ch t h ey b ro u gh t i n o r i g i n a l l y a n d I

s ig n e d t he m b ec au se th ey f i n i sh e d t he f ou r D VC PR O ta p es a n d t he

t o ta l d u r a t i on ca m e to 2 4 0 m in u te s …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h ic h t he y t ra ns fe r r e d w i th t h a t d ay

o r o ve r a two / t h r ee da y p er io d .


C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s , w h a t I w an t t o t r y a nd u n d ers tan d is w h a t 4 4 10

D VC PR O …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : W h a t d oe s t h a t m ea n ?

C HA IR PER SO N : W ha t do es t ha t r e fe r t o ? W ha t g oo ds w ere t ho s e?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Yo ur H o no ur a b l e I h av e g o t n o c lu e .

I d o no t k n ow w he re t h is d esc r i p t i on co m e s f r o m .

C HA IR PER SO N : Is t h a t s o?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : N o .

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t f r o m yo ur o wn un d e rs ta nd i ng w ha t wo u ld i t b e –

wh a t ty p e o f g o od s – b e ca us e i t s ays d es c r i p t i on o f g oo ds . W h a t ty p e

o f g oo ds ? 20

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : C h a i r pe rs on t h e re is n o s uc h

de sc r ip t io n fo r f o o ta g e w h a ts oe ver.


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : 4 4 D VC PR O , 34 D VC PR O n o .

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t i t i s i n yo ur a f f id av i t . Yo u s i gn e d t he a f f i da v i t –

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yo ur s t a te m e n t a nd y ou j us t c o n f i r m e d - w h en y ou s ta r t e d y o ur

ev i d e nc e yo u c on f i r m e d t h a t t he c o n te n ts o f yo ur a f f i da v i t a re c o r r ec t .

So ho w co u l d y o u b e t he o n e s ay i n g th a t y ou d o n o t k n ow w ha t 4 4

D VC PR O r e fe rs to ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: C ou l d th a t be t h e s iz e o f t h e

t ap e ?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Co u ld i t b e t h e s i ze o f t h e

t ap e ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : D e f i n i t e l y n o t . T he s iz e o f th e t ap es 10

var y f r o m 3 3 , 6 6 a n d 1 2 6 .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . A l r ig h t , bu t w h en y o u

s ig n e d i t wh a t w er e y o u s i gn i ng b ec a us e a t p ag e 2 2 – y ou r e m e m b er 2 2

wh er e y o u w er e b e fo re ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h en I ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Pa ge 2 2 .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u s e e w h er e y o u r e fe r re d t o a s l i p a b ou t f i ve

m i nu tes ag o …


C HA IR PER SO N : A t p ag e 2 2 . Yo u c o n f i r m e d t ha t y o u s ig n e d t h a t s l i p . 20

Is t ha t r ig h t? Pa g e 2 2 …

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Pa g e 2 2 …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I s i g n ed ou t f o r a c tu a l D VC PR O

tap es …

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M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : An d t h e to ta l d u r a t i on o f t h os e f o u r

t ap es c a m e to 2 4 0 m i n u te s .


C HA IR PER SO N : W ho wr o te 2 40 m i nu tes ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t i s m y h a nd wr i t i n g .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo ur ha n d wr i t in g ?


C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t t h ey …

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Bu t M o l ok o c h eck e d t h e dur a t io n o f 10

ea ch a nd ev ery t ap e .

C HA IR PER SO N : J a t h a t i s f i n e .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h e n …

C HA IR PER SO N : W ho se h a n dwr i t i n g o r w h o wr o te 4 4 D VC PR O s o n t ha t

s l i p ? W h os e h a n dw r i t i n g … ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T ha t i s no t 4 4 Ch a i rp e rs o n . I t i s f o u r

t i m e s D VC PR O . I d i d .

C HA IR PER SO N : W ha t i s i t ? Ju s t r e a d i t .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I t i s f o u r t i m e s D VC PR O .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : O k ay. 20

C HA IR PER SO N : Fo ur t i m e s D VC pr o gr a m s .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : D VC PR Os .

C HA IR PER SO N : PR Os , j a wh a t i s t h a t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a t i s t he n a m e o f a t a p e .

C HA IR PER SO N : O h t h os e a r e ta p es ?

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C HA IR PER SO N : O h .


C HA IR PER SO N : So i t i s n o t 4 4 . I t i s f o u r t i m e s?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I t i s f o u r t i m e s .

C HA IR PER SO N : Th e n w h en y o u g o t o p a ge 7 o f y ou r s t a te m en t un d er

de sc r ip t io n o f go o ds wh er e i t s ays 4 4 D VC PR O . Sh o u l d i t b e r ea d in g

f ou r t i m es ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h i s l o oks l i k e a ty p i n g e r ro r . I t

sh ou l d b e … 10

C HA IR PER SO N : O h , i t sh o u l d b e f ou r t i m es ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a , fo u r t i m e s .

C HA IR PER SO N : I f i t sa ys fo u r t i m e s th e n i t w ou ld m a k e se ns e to yo u ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a , de f in i t e l y n o do u b t a bo u t i t .


C HA IR PER SO N : T he n i t w ou ld b e t h e t a p es ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a an d I a m c or r ec t in g m i ne .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Yes . So s ha l l i t r e f l ec t t he

sa m e in a l l? I t w i l l b e t h re e t i m e s g o i n g d o wn ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a . 20

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A l r ig h t , ok ay. So yo u m a de an

e r r o r th e r e .

C HA IR PER SO N : W i l l i t b e t h r e e t i m es …

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : ( I n te rv e ne s ) .

C HA IR PER SO N : F o ur t i m es , t h r e e t i m e s , th r e e t i m es , e ig h t t i m es ,

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sev e n t i m es , t h r e e t i m e s , f o u r t i m es , tw o t i m es ? Is t h a t w ha t i t w i l l b e

– w h a t i t s ho u l d be o n t h a t co l u m n?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : F our, s ev en , 10 , 25 , 2 8 , 3 0 , 3 8 . I t

ad ds u p t o th e a m o un t o f D VC PR O ta pe s w h ic h t he y b r o ug h t i n …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : 3 8 i n t o ta l .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : A l r ig h t .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s , b u t le t u s ta ke i t s t ep b y s te p . Yo u s aw w h er e i t

say s 4 4 – 4 4 . Yo u s a i d i t s ho u ld b e f o u r t i m e s

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I t i s f o u r t i m e s D VC PR O . 10

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u no w th a t i t s ay s 3 4 . So th a t i s …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : 3 4 .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : 3 4 sh o u l d b e th re e t i m e s .

C HA IR PER SO N : T h r ee t i m e s ?


C HA IR PER SO N : T he f o l lo w in g on e ? 3 0 s ho u ld b e w h a t , t h re e t i m e s?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h r e e .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d 84 u nd er n ea th ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sh o u l d b e e ig h t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : O k ay. 20

C HA IR PER SO N : 7 4 ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sh o u l d b e s ev en .

C HA IR PER SO N : Sho u ld b e se ve n . 3 4 s h ou l d b e t h r e e .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sh o u l d b e t h r e e .

C HA IR PER SO N : 4 4 s h ou ld b e f o u r .

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M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Sh o u l d b e f o u r .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d 24 sh o u l d b e two .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Tw o a n d 48 s h ou l d b e fo u r .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th an k y ou M r C h a i r .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T h an k yo u a n d t h en i n th e n ex t

pa ra gr a ph s th e n y o u g iv e in yo ur s ta te m e n t th e t o ta ls o f th e a m o u nts

t ha t w er e p a i d b y AN N 7 a t t he r a te o f t he m h av in g b e en c h ar ge d f o r th e

20 0 0 m i n u te s a t R 7 0 p er m in u te a nd y o u g ive t ho se t o ta ls i n p a r ag ra p h 10

– p ar a gra p hs 21 a nd 2 2 . Is t ha t c o r r ec t?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : An d w er e th os e a m o un ts p a i d to

t he SABC ? As th e i nv o i c es w er e th ey p a i d ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : A l l in vo i ces w ere p a i d .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . A l l o f t he m w er e pa id ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : A l l o f t h e m .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , t h an k y o u a nd t h e n l e t us

jus t de a l w i t h t h e o ne as pe c t th e n o n – h o w th en wer e y ou de a l i ng w i t h

t he m i n o r d er fo r y ou t o se e w ha t co n ten t t he y ha ve us e d ? Ho w w er e 20

yo u ge t t in g d ec la r a t i o ns f r o m the m ? C an yo u ju s t te l l t h e C ha i r pe rs on

t ha t p r oc ess t ha t y o u f o l l ow e d q u i ck ly ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I w o u l d e m a i l th e m an d as k f o r a

de c l a r a t i on . L i ke I d i d w i th a l l c l i e n t s a n d fo r t u n a te ly y ou kn o w i t c os t

t oo m u ch t o h av e a m i c r oc h i p i ns ta l le d i n e ac h an d e v ery ta p e w h ic h

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yo u s e l l t o th e p ub l i c o r to p r o d uc t i o n h ou se s . So yo u r e l y on t h e i r

ho n es ty.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : So ho w i t d o es wo rk w i th a

m ic r oc h ip . Su p p os in g t h a t y o u c a n a f fo r d – i f y ou w er e t o a f fo rd i t h ow

wo u ld i t w ork ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : A m ic r o ch i p g e ts p la n ted o n to a t ap e

an d wh o ev er us es th a t t a p e w i l l r e g i s te r o n to yo ur c o m p u te r.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: S o is t h a t wa n t i s ca l l e d b urn t

in c o de o r i s i t s o m e th i ng d i f f e r e n t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : N o , i t i s so m e th i n g d i f fe r e n t . 10

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: O kay. A re y ou a w are o f t he

bu rn t i n c o de sys te m ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h e bu rn t in t i m e co d e , y es

de f in i te ly.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . Ok ay wh a t i s - ho w d o es

t ha t on e wor k ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I f y ou h av e g o t a b u rn t in t i m e c od e

on yo ur t ap e y ou ca n no t us e i t fo r a ny th i n g b ec a us e i t i s t i m e c od e th a t

ru ns a t t he b o t t o m o f th e ta p e c on t in u ou s ly …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : An d y ou ca n no t us e i t f o r an y

p r ogr a m m i n g wh a ts o ev er.

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Bu t w i l l y o u b e a b l e –

su pp os i ng t h a t yo u g i ve m e w i t h t he b ur n t i n t i m e c o d e . D o es th a t

m e a n t h a t i f I s a i d I w an te d i t f o r f i ve s ec on ds I c an o n ly us e i t f o r f i ve

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sec o nd s a n d n o t m or e?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : N o , w a i t . Yo u c a n on ly u se i t f o r f i ve

sec o nd s a n d n o m or e ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . I f y ou h av e pu t i n t h a t

bu rn t i n c o de .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Yo u p u t i n a bu r n t c o d e y o u c an p u t i t

in f o r tw o h o urs , t h re e ho ur s . Yo u ca n p u t i t in f o r a s l on g as y o u l i ke .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Bu t y ou ca nn o t us e th a t f oo ta ge t o do

an y p r o d uc t i o n . T h e f o o ta g e c o m p l e te ly b ec o m es us e l es s . 10

C HA IR PER SO N : W ha t re n de rs i t us e l ess ? I s th a t w ha t y ou c a l l ba nk

in c o de o r wh a t y o u … ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : I t i s b u r n t in t i m e c o d e as i n i n

bu rn t .

C HA IR PER SO N : Bur n t i n t i m e c od e ?


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Bu r n t i n t i m e c od e , j a . I t i s a c od e

t ha t r un s a t th e bo t t o m o f t he t a pe o r y ou c an p u t i t r i gh t in t he c e n t re

o f t he ta p e o r o n t op o f th e t a p e . I f yo u d o n o t wa n t a ny b od y t o us e

yo ur m a te r i a l . 20

C HA IR PER SO N : O h , ok ay.



A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : An d t h en fo r m o n i t o r in g y ou

sa i d y ou s i m p ly r e l ie d o n t he m o n th e i r h o ne s ty. Th a t i s a l l . T ha t w as

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t he on ly m o n i t o r in g m ec h a n is m y ou p u t in p l ac e ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Yo u h ad t o re ly on t he i r ho n es ty.

C HA IR PER SO N : T ha t i s n o m ec h a n is m .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T he re is n o m e c ha n i s m o th er

t ha n sa y i ng i f I co m e to y ou a n d I bu y f r o m yo u yo ur c on te n t y ou w i l l

ex pe c t m e to be h o n es t w i t h yo u a n d t h en I w i l l p ay fo r wh a t I de c l a r e

t o yo u .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: A nd t h a t wa s t he o n l y s ys te m

tha t wa s t h e r e? 10



C HA IR PER SO N : Is – w er e t h e re o th e r oc c as i o ns b e fo re th is o n e w her e

yo u so l d a rc h iv e f o o ta g e t o s o m eb o dy o r a c o m p an y w h i ch wo u ld us e i t

an d y o u w o u l d – t he y w o u l d h av e t o p ay y o u f o r us in g i t ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : C h a i rp e rs o n I a m n o t a w ar e o f

an yb o dy wh o h as us ed an y f o o ta g e w i t h o u t d ec l a r in g . I a m g o in g t o

m e n t i o n C ar te B l a nc h e n ow. Ca r te B l an ch e e ve n we n t a s fa r t o d ec l a re

on a Su n d ay b e fo re t h ey w en t o u t on a i r t h e Su nd ay e ve n in g . Th e

pe o p l e I h av e w or ke d w i t h p r o du c t i o n h o us es , b ro a dc as te r t e nd t o b e 20

very, ve ry ho n es t . I ha ve n ev er ha d a ny p r o b l e m s i n f oo ta ge

de c l a r a t i on s n ev er.

C HA IR PER SO N : We l l wh a t m ec h an is m w as i n p l ac e to m a k e s u re t h a t

i f t he y w er e d is h on es t y o u w o u l d h av e fo u nd o u t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h a t m e ch an is m i n p la ce ?

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C HA IR PER SO N : W h at m ec h a n is m w as i n p l ac e t o m ak e su re th a t i f

t he y w er e d is ho n es t y o u w o u l d k no w ? Yo u wo u l d f i n d o u t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : N o th in g r e a l l y exc e p t f o r m e w h o

wo u ld f o l lo w v ia e m a i l on a r eg u l a r b as i s .

C HA IR PER SO N : J a , b u t t ha t – i f a p e rs o n s ay s I h av e us e d t he

f oo tag e fo r on e h o ur w h en t he y ha v e us e d i t f o r f i v e h ou rs yo u w o u l d

no t k n o w w h e th er th ey h av e b e en ho n es t w i t h y o u o r n o t . Is i t no t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : R i gh t C ha i r pe rs on . Th er e is j us t no

wa y w e c o u l d h av e se n t so m e b o dy o u t t o t he i r o f f i ce s t o g o an d c he ck

ea ch a nd ev ery b i t o f f o o ta g e . Yo u kn o w … 10

C HA IR PER SO N : I f y ou h ad se n t s o m e b od y w ou l d i t ha ve b ee n ea sy t o

– t o f i n d o u t h o w m uc h th e fo o tag e – f o r h ow m u c h t i m e th e fo o tag e ha d

be e n u se d o r w o u l d th a t n o t h av e be e n p os s ib l e t o de te r m i ne ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : We r e l ie d o n th e ho n es ty o f t he

c l i e n t s .

C HA IR PER SO N : J a , b u t I a m a sk in g a d i f fe re n t q ue s t i on . T h e

qu es t io n i s i f y ou d i d no t t r us t t h e c l i en t wh a t i s i t t h a t yo u c o u l d h av e

do n e t o ch ec k wh e the r y o u a r e b e i n g m is l ed o r n o t wh e n a c l ie n t t e l l s

yo u I us e d t h e f o o ta ge f o r X a m o un t o f t i m e w he n i n fa c t i t w as fo r

m or e . 20

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : C h a i r p e rso n I c o u l d ha ve as ke d f o r

h i m D VD b ur n t in t i m e c od e c o py.

C HA IR PER SO N : O ka y a nd t ha t wo u l d ha ve t o ld y o u ex ac t ly h o w m u c h

t i m e h ad b ee n us ed ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : D e f i n i t e l y. No d ou b t a b ou t i t .

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C HA IR PER SO N : An d wa s th a t so m e th in g t ha t w as av a i l a b l e a t t h e t i m e

t ha t th is t r an s ac t i o n t o ok p l ac e?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Ye s . I co u l d h av e as ke d th e m fo r a

D VC PR O c o py …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : O f wh a te ver t he y h av e b ro a dc as t .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T ha t w o u l d h av e m e a n t o u r D VC PR O

co py – a tw o h o ur D VD c op y. Th ey we n t o u t 24 h o urs a da y. Th a t

wo u ld h av e m e a n t 1 2 D VDs a d ay. J a , I c o u l d h av e ask e d t h e m . 10

C HA IR PER SO N : An d t ha t wo u l d h av e b e e n f in e . T h ey w o u l d – t h e r e is

no th i n g – n o t - t h a t i s no t v ia b le ab o u t d o i ng i t t h a t w ay. I s t h e r e?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Q u i t e r ig h t .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s a n d w hy wa s i t n o t – wh y w as t ha t no t do n e ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : W h e n I a p pr oa ch e d t h e m a f t e r

M a d i b a p ass e d aw ay t h ey i m m e d i a te ly r e sp on d e d an d t h ey c a m e b ac k

an d th ey de c l a r ed in an ho n es t w ay. S i as w e h av e us ed 27 m i nu tes o f

yo ur fo o tag e . So I t r us ted t he m .

C HA IR PER SO N : J a , bu t w h a t d i d y o u sa y i n a n ho n es t w ay b ec a us e

yo u do n o t – y ou d o n o t h av e a wa y o f k n o w i ng w h e th er t h ey w ere 20

be i ng h on es t . Sh o u l d y o u no t s i m p ly s ay t he y s a i d to m e t h ey us e d 27

m i nu tes an d I ac ce p te d th a t b u t y ou do no t k n ow w he the r t h ey w er e

be i ng h on es t? Yo u d i d n o t kn o w th a t . D id yo u?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Yo u a r e r ig h t C h a i rp e rs o n .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d in t h e p ro ce ss SA BC co u ld - m ay w e l l ha ve i n

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e f fe c t be e n ro b be d o f r ev en u e t h a t i t c ou l d h av e o b ta in e d . I a m s ay in g

ro bb e d n o t in a c r i m i n a l s en se . I t – i t su f f e r ed l os s . I t c o u l d h av e

ga i ne d r ev en u e a n d i t d i d n o t g a i n th a t r ev en u e .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Yo u a r e r ig h t .

C HA IR PER SO N : Yo u acc e p t t ha t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I ag r e e 10 0 pe rc en t Ch a i rp e r so n .




A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , t h an k y o u M r C h a i r p e rs o n . 10

M a yb e j us t la s t l y th e n M r Sco t t y ou s a i d t h e r e w er e pa y m e n ts . A r e

t ho se t he o ne s re f le c te d a t pa g e 6 4 ?


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T h e i nv o i ce s a r e be fo r e th a t bu t

yo u ha ve g o t pa y m e n ts t ha t a r e l i s t e d a t p ag e 6 4 . 64 w o u l d b e wr i t t en

on t he r i gh t t op h an d c o r ner .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : C or r ec t .


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Adv oc a te .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . So o n f r o m th e qu es t io ns 20

t ha t t h e C ha i r pe rs on h a d ask e d yo u t h en yo u w ou ld – I t ak e i t th a t yo u

wo u ld no t ta ke i ss ue w i t h t he ev i d e nc e o f M r Sun d ar a m th a t t h e m a n ne r

in w h ic h a de c l a r a t i o n wa s m a d e by y ou r o f f i c e r e l y i n g on th e us er o f

t he f o o ta g e w as n o t a g o od w ay o f – w as n o t a co m m e rc i a l l y v ia b le

m a n ner o f – o f d o i n g b us i ne ss .

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M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I ag r e e . T he re s h o u l d h av e be e n a

m e tho d i n p l ac e to ch ec k e ac h a n d e ve ry s ec o nd f oo ta ge g o i ng o u t o f

t he bu i l d in g .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s a n d t ha t w as y our

res p on s i b i l i ty ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : M a y b e – I w a s n ev er t o l d i t i s m y

res p on s i b i l i ty. Sa l e o f f o o ta ge s ta r t ed l o n g b e fo r e I s t a r t ed wo rk i n g f o r

t he SABC .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes bu t f o r 2 5 y ea rs as y o u

we re w ork i ng w i th t h e SABC y o u c o n t i nu e d i n t he s a m e m a n ne r wh ic h 10

yo u de sc r i b e d to t h e C h a i rp e rs o n w i t ho u t pu t t in g in t h e o th e r

m e ch a n is m o f t he b urn t in c o d e?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a , b u t qu i te f ra nk ly y ou k no w r i gh t

f r o m th e da y I s t a r te d we ha d fa i th an d t r u s t i n th e c l i en ts . I w as n ev er

t o l d t o p l ay po l i ce m a n , ne ver.

C HA IR PER SO N : Bu t M r Sco t t I c an un d ers ta nd w h e n y o u t r us t

so m e b od y th a t y o u ha ve – y ou k no w a nd yo u h av e k no w n fo r a l o n g

t i m e bu t s o m e t i m e th e c l ie n t i s s o m eb o d y th a t yo u m e e t f o r th e f i r s t

t i m e wh e n t h ey w a n t th e f o o ta g e . So h ow do y o u – h ow do y o u w ork o n

t he b as i s t h a t t h a t p e rs o n is a n h o ne s t p e rso n wh e n y ou r e l y – t he re is 20

no t r ac k re cor d t o re ly on .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : C h a i r p e rso n yo u j us t h op e t h a t t he

c l i e n t ac ts in g oo d f a i t h .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s , b u t y ou ca n no t r u n a b us i ne ss l i k e t h a t . C a n yo u

an d th a t m ig h t n o t b e y o ur fa u l t bu t r ea l l y i f y ou g i ve s o m e b od y

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so m e th i n g th a t t he y c a n us e to m a k e m o n ey b ec au se t h a t f oo tag e t h i s

pa r t i c u l a r c l i en t wa n ted to us e in t he c ou rs e o f b us i n ess - o f th e i r

bu s i n ess yo u k n o w – AN N 7 a nd t h ey k n o w th a t t o - i f t h ey g i ve y ou –

t he y k n ow th a t y o u w i l l n o t ha ve a w ay o r yo u w i l l t ak e t h e i r w or d w he n

t he y s ay w e u se d i t fo r o n e h o ur w he n i n fa c t t h ey us e d i t f o r t h r ee

ho ur s an d t h ey k no w i f t he y s ay i t i s th re e ho ur s t he y pa y m or e . I f t he y

say o ne ho ur t he y p ay le ss y ou kn o w. T h er e a r e pe o p l e o u t th e r e w h o

w i l l sa y – w h o w i l l m i s l ed y ou . So u n l es s yo u – y o u ha ve h a d – y ou

kn ow – a t r ac k re co rd o f d e a l i n g w i th t h e m a nd t he i r ho n es ty ha s b e en

p r ov ed i t s ho u l d be p r o b l e m a t i c b ec a us e i f yo u r u n a b us i n ess s i m p ly 10

on a ba s is t h a t yo u w i l l t r us t th a t e ve ry c l i e n t w h o g o es th r o u gh y o ur

do or i s an h o n es t p e rs on th e n t he re w i l l be p ro b le m s . Yo u a p pr ec i a te

t ha t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I d o C ha i r pe rs on an d I a g re e 1 0 0

pe rc en t t he r e s h ou l d h av e b e en a wa y …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : To m o n i t o r …


M R J O SIA S J O H AN N S SC O T T : Fo o tag e g o i n g o u t o f th e bu i l d i n g .

C HA IR PER SO N : An d es p ec ia l l y be ca us e f r o m wh a t yo u h av e s a i d i t i s 20

no t as i f t he re w as n o w ay o f – th e r e w as n o m ec h an is m th a t co u l d b e

pu t i n p l ac e . F r o m w h a t y ou h av e s a id t he r e w as a m e ch a n i s m tha t

co u l d be p u t i n p la ce t o m ak e s u r e t ha t yo u c ou l d k no w ex ac t l y h o w

m u ch t i m e ha d be e n us e d a nd t he qu es t io n is wh e n y ou ha ve go t a

m e ch a n is m th a t i s m e a n t t o p r o tec t SA BC i n th a t s i t u a t i on . Wh y is i t

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no t – w hy w as i t n o t u se d a n d t h en we no w h av e e v i d en ce th a t t h is

a rc h i ve f oo tag e wa s g i ve n t o ANN 7 fo r an un j us t i f ia b l y lo w a m ou n t .

T ha t i s – I t h i nk t he p r ev io us w i t n ess s a id so m e b od y f ro m AN N 7 us ed t o

say t ha t t he y g o t t h is fo o ta g e fo r p ea n u ts f ro m SABC . Yo u un d ers tan d ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : I d i d n o t he ar t he la s t p a r t?

C HA IR PER SO N : T he la s t w i t n ess w ho w a s b e fo r e y o u ca m e h er e …


C HA IR PER SO N : H e g av e ev id e nc e a n d sa i d s o m e bo dy f r o m ANN 7 o r

so m e b od y c o nn ec te d w i t h AN N 7 to w ho m the fo o tag e w as s o l d by SABC

wa s bo as t in g a r ou n d s ay in g t ha t t he y go t t h is f o o ta g e f ro m S ABC fo r 10

pe a n u ts . I t h i nk t he re wa s m en t io n o f b e er a n d – fo r b ee r a nd

so m e th i n g e ls e . I do no t k n o w w h e th er y o u s a i d t h a t o r so m e b o dy e ls e .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : Ch a i rp e rso n i f t h a t p e rs o n g o t i t f o r

pe a n u ts h e d i d n o t ge t i t f r o m m e a , an d b , I ha ve s tuck to th e

ag re e m e n t w h i ch I ha d w i t h N az e e m H ow a .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s , t h an k yo u .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T ha nk y o u . T ha nk y o u

M r C h a i r p e rs o n . T h a nk y o u Mr C ha i r pe rs on t h a t i s t he ev id e nc e f r o m

th is w i t n ess , th a nk y o u .

C HA IR PER SO N : So t h e f oo tag e t h a t y ou ha ve p ers o n a l kn o w l e dg e t he 20

f oo tag e th a t yo u so l d a l l t og e the r a m o un ted to fo o tag e f o r h o w m u c h

t i m e ? Is i t 20 0 0 ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : 2 0 00 m i n u tes .

C HA IR PER SO N : 2 0 00 m i n u te s is t ha t r ig h t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : 1 98 2 to be p r ec is e .

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C HA IR PER SO N : An d M r H o wa o r AN N7 p a id ho w m u ch f o r t h a t?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h ey pa i d R 7 0 f o r 20 0 0 m in u tes

be ca us e I h ad t h i s a g r e e m e n t w i th t h e m tha t a t R7 0 yo u t ak e 2 0 0 0 a n d

t he y p a i d R1 4 0 0 0 0 .

C HA IR PER SO N : R 1 4 0 0 00 ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : J a , exc l ud i ng VAT.



C HA IR PER SO N : An d d o y o u s ay th a t th a t a m o un t w h ic h t he y p a i d w as

re as on a b l e a nd a cc ord e d w i t h w ha t SA BC us e d t o c h arg e g e ner a l l y f o r 10

f oo tag e ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : D i d I?

C HA IR PER SO N : T h a t t h e a m o u n t th a t t h ey pa i d a r e y o u s ay in g i t as

re as on a b l e a n d t h a t i t acc or d ed w i t h t h e ra tes th a t SABC us e d t o

ch ar ge f o r a rc h iv e fo o tag e ?

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T he a m o u n t w as 1 0 0 p erc e n t

acc or d i n g t o w h a t I h av e qu o te d th e m a nd a l so as p e r th e m in u tes

wh ic h th ey w er e su p po se d t o t ak e a w ay.

C HA IR PER SO N : Ok ay, th a nk y o u .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th an k y ou M r C h a i r m a n . 20

C HA IR PER SO N : A r e w e go in g to g e t a ny w i t ne ss o th e r w i tn es se s w h o

t a lk t o t h e re a so n ab le o r o th e r w i se o f t h e p r i ce ( i n t e r ve n es ) ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : U n fo r t u na te l y M r Ch a i r m a n t h i s

i s t he on ly w i tn es s w ho wa s wo rk i n g i n t ha t d e p ar tm en t w h o w as

de a l i ng w i t h t he p r ic in g a n d ev ery th i n g e ls e an d h e w as t h e on ly

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pe rs on .

C HA IR PER SO N : We l l t h e re sh o u l d b e an i nv es t i g a t i on w h e th er t he

co m p la i n t …


C HA IR PER SO N : T ha t t h is f oo ta ge w as s o l d fo r a s on g wh e the r t h a t –

t he r e i s j us t i f i c a t i on in t ha t c o m p l a i n t o r n o t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s . I a m a w ar e o f a f o r e ns i c

inv es t i ga t io n .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: T h a t t he i nv es t ig a to rs i n d ic a ted 10

…


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T h a t h ad be e n co n d uc te d b u t i t

wa s d o ne in a v e ry s h o dd y m a n n er a n d ( i n t e rv e ne s ) .

C HA IR PER SO N : J a wh a t – w h a t n e ed s to be d on e is to es ta b l i s h w h a t

t he no r m i n t he in d us t r y i s .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : I n t he in d us t r y i s , y es .

C HA IR PER SO N : Was R 70 a t t h a t t i m e wa s i t t h e n or m – y o u kn o w.


C HA IR PER SO N : Fo r t h a t k i n d o f fo o tag e an d – o r n o t – y o u kn o w. 20


C HA IR PER SO N : T he y h a d R 1 00 b u t …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , t he y re d uc ed i t .

C HA IR PER SO N : M isc o un te d a n d re d uc ed i t .


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C HA IR PER SO N : So t h a t i s w ha t ne e ds to be d on e .


C HA IR PER SO N : O th er w i se w e a r e n o t i n a po s i t i o n t o s ay w he the r

t he r e wa s a ny th i n g wr o n g w i t h s e l l i n g i t fo r th a t a m o u n t .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s . T ha nk yo u , y es

M r C h a i r m a n .

C HA IR PER SO N : J a . I m e a n i f t he r e is a – I a m s ur e t he re s ho u ld be

lo ts o f o th e r t r an sa c t i on s o f t ha t k i nd w i t h i n th e c o un t r y b u t e ve n i f

t he r e a r e n o t a m su re t ha t a n i nv es t i g a t i o n t o wh a t h a p pe n ed in o th e r

co un t r i es w i t h T V s ta t i on s o r w h a tev er … 10


C HA IR PER SO N : C a n be c he ck ed a n d t h en c an b e co m p ar e d w i t h t he

R1 0 0 p er m i nu te o r R 7 0 p er m i nu te to s e e wh e the r t h a t …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Sh ou l d ch a n ge o r n o t .

C HA IR PER SO N : Is m or e o r le ss i n l i ne o r no t .



A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Ye s , t ha nk y o u C h a i r .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th an k y ou . 20

C HA IR PER SO N : T h an k yo u M r Sco t t . T h an k yo u ve ry m u c h . Yo u a r e

exc us e d . T h a nk y o u f o r c o m i ng .

M R J O SIA S J O H AN N ES SC O T T : T h a nk y ou C ha i r pe rs on .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T ha nk y o u . T ha nk y o u

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M r C h a i r m a n . I n th e sa m e b u nd l e t h e r e is a c on f i r m a to ry a f f i d av i t o f

M r M o l ok o M as er u m u l e wh o wa s j us t a ss i s t in g Mr Sc o t t – Mr R ah u l in

co l l a t i ng t h e – t he f oo ta ge a nd i t i s – i t i s t he ve ry l as t do cu m e n t in t ha t

bu n d l e a nd i t i s m ar ke d n u m b er tw o b ec a us e he re a l l y h as n o in d e p th

kn ow l ed g e . We s i m p ly ask t ha t h is s t a te m e nt ju s t be s u b m i t t e d i n to

ev i d e nc e w i t h ou t h i m h av i n g t o b e c a l le d t o te s t i fy. Yes , b ec a us e h e

s i m p l y t h e r e is ( i n t e r ve n es ) .

C HA IR PER SO N : O ka y. So I t h in k t he m os t i m p or tan t t h in g is to

inv es t i ga te w h a t w as t he no r m …


C HA IR PER SO N : I n te r m s o f p r i ce s . W h a t w as t h e – w h a t w er e t he

p r i ce s an d – a nd t h e n th e o the r q u es t i o n i s w h e th er t h e t r an sa c t i on w as

do n e i n a cc or da nc e w i t h es ta b l i s he d p ro ce du re s a t SABC .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Yes . T ha nk y ou . T he

inv es t i ga to rs ha ve m a d e n o tes . T ha nk y o u M r C h a i r m a n .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : Th an k y ou …


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : T h a t – t h a t i s th e ev i d en ce f o r

t od ay M r C h a i r m a n . I a m a dv is ed t ha t Tr an sn e t w i l l c on c l ud e i t s 20

ev i d e nc e t h en t o m or r o w.

C HA IR PER SO N : I f – i f w e h ad k n ow n we wo u ld f i n i sh th is t i m e we

co u l d h av e – Dr B l o o m c o u l d h av e c o m e a nd m a yb e we co u l d ha ve …

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : F i n ish e d to d ay.

C HA IR PER SO N : F i n i sh e d t o d ay.

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A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Ye s , y es . I t i s j us t t h a t i t wa s

d i f f i c u l t …

C HA IR PER SO N : To t e l l .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: Es pe c i a l l y w i t h t h e f i r s t w i tn es s

in t he m or n in g .

C HA IR PER SO N : Ye s , ye s .

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: I t wa s ha rd t o t e l l wh a t t i m e he

wo u ld f i n is h .

C HA IR PER O N : H m .


C HA IR PER SO N : Ok ay. No th a t i s a l r i g h t a n d to m o r r ow i t i s D r B l o o m

an d wh o ?

A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC : I t h i nk th e r e is a M r Vu ke la o r

so m e th i n g .


A D V T HA N D I V IC TO R IA N O R M A N SC: I a m no t s u r e o f t he na m e , bu t I

t h i nk Tr an sn e t i s – ha s p la n ne d I t h in k tw o w i t ne ss es fo r t o m or r o w.



C HA IR PER SO N : Ok ay. To m or ro w we w i l l s t a r t a t 10 … 20


C HA IR PER SO N : An d w e a d j o u r n f o r th e d ay.


C HA IR PER SO N : We a d jo u r n .


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R EG IST R A R: A l l r i se .

IN Q UIRY AD J O U RN S TO 5 J U N E 2 01 9

10

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