Livoda 130-A

L: . . . the super . . . xxxxxx foreman for six months. So

finally a fella come in and he said Mike would you mind, we

are going to have a camp here and he said and we are going to

have to move twice a year. In summer at Walden and winter in

the Moffat county. And he said how would x you like to be

superintendent of it. x I said, well hell i can't xxx

qualify to be superintendent of it, I said I got no degree.

I said it takes a man with a college and a civil engineer and

all of those kind of things. Well he said you, you, you xxxx

don't mind, he said you. bo in six months, well in about

six weeks i got a call that I was appointed as a superintendent

to run one of these outfits. So I took it. And I moved twice

a year. And they ah, the funniest thing had happened. There

were about 13 Department of xxxxxxxxx Interior camps, grazing

service all of the governments land that they, oh most of them

located all over wi Id part of the state you know. Durango

and all over the mountains, The mine was located at Moffat

County right below the Baggs. About 29 miles down that Snake

River. Well, wnat i want to tell you is the CCC boys

that cut 36 miles of telephone poles in Walden. On the government

land. We peeled them off, dried them and load them up on the

trucks and deliver them, 300 feet long for xxx 36 miles. And

then in the fall when we moved down in there we put in the

telephone lines. The boys did a good job. And they loved to

xxxx climb telephone poles (laugh) ah everybody wanted to climb . .

R: What year was this?

L: Huh?

W: What year?

l : Tnis was during the depression. I think tnis was around about

I think 43 and 4. . . until we got into the second world war.

You see why I was the only one xxxx last camp in the region that

was kept before the b . . . you couldn't keep the boys in the

camps they wanted to join the army. So when we got down there

we put in the telephone line. Then always from Baggs to

xxxx Powder wash. Powder Wash was 36 miles out of Baggs down

on the state line, and they had some wells. Gas wells down in there.

And ah then when we got it in there (chuckle) we had to pay $4

to use our own telephone lines, (laugh) xxxxxxx A month. And the

woman that was in the office at Baggs, she didn't even know how

to make our telephone bill, well, the government you know got out

a quadruplicate, (laugh) All fixed up you know then you sign it

and send it on in. She said Mr. Livoda will you make that up for

me and I'll sign it, she said I really couldn't do it. She said

I don't know. I said you'd learn it if you have to but I’ll do it

for you. (laugh) And ah in the length the time that I was in

as a superintendent I was going to tell you about it a lot of times

we had a fella that was on the top. Sometimes we use to call him

principle clerK, you didn't get any money you just x said you got

$800 to operate gents, when you've spent that during the 30 days

then you are xx broKe. See? And ah, 13 superintendents and we

use to get into the meeting once a month you kn ow and everybody

cry you know. Broke, I'm broke. I'm run out of money. How

about you Livoda? I said well I think I'm still in the black,

And ah (laugh) in all the time that we operated on the $800

I never went in the red. And I moved . . .

R: Did you pay your crew to or was that for you?

page 2

L: Huh?

R: Did you pay your crew out of tnat?

L: n o . This is for the ah that $800 was for your gas and oil,

And equipment for the trucks parts and repair and all of that

stuff . . .

R: On yeah.

L: And the project material that you had to have, some cement

or anything that's in where you are working what you do and

all of that, but you didn't, no the wages didn't come out of

that too. Wages, (chuckle) So.

R: Let me explain what we need, what we are doing again. Is your

wife, will she back soon, or is she going to be gonexxxx awhile?

L: Well, she'll be gone, maybe a couple of hours, 2 1/2 hours or so.

R: Well, xkx what we did, I don’t xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx know if you

remember exactly what we are doing. Do you remember what it is

that we are doing? Making slides and kind of like . . .

l : Yeah, yeah you told me that.

R: Okay, well we brought a little of that we did a short piece of

xxxxxxxx it . . .

L: Uh huh.

R: And xx where we are now is we're in the middle of getting

our script finalized.

L: Uh huh.

R: We've been talking to people in Aguilar, in Walsenburg and

Trinidad. And we are going to show this show in those towns. And

L: You find some of the old fellas that were in that xxx struggle

down there?

R: Yeah, we found a lot of people, everybody remembers you.

page 3

L: Oh hell . . .

k: I talked to Barron Beshaor.

L: what's his name?

R: Beshoar. Out of the . . .

L: Oh yeah.

R: and he told me to tell you hello.

L: Yeah, yeah, how is he getting along?

R: He's good. He's good. Did he, he wrote Out of the Depths from

just interviews and newspapers?

L: Uh huh.

R: Was his father the doctor down there?

L: Uh nuh.

R: it was his father or his uncle? His father.

L: I don't know whether it was his uncle or his father but . . .

where does he live now? Aguilar?

K: Trinidad.

L: Oh, trinidad.

R: Kean.

L: Yeah.

K: So any how we are writing a script and we went through and we

had the last tape that we made of you all typed up and everything

and we've been using that to make our sound track for this

thing. But in some places there are little sentences that we

need to have you say again or there's other things that we want

to ask you now, now that we know the story of what went on down

there. Ah, so we'll go through, I made a list of the questions

that we have to get answered.

L: Yeah, go ahead, that will be fine.

page 4

K: The very first thing, the last time you were here you had a

strike call.

L: Oh yeah.

R: Do you remember that?

L: Oh yean, I got it, i got it. (goes to get the strike call)

R: Okay, let's put this back on.

l : Yeah.

R: There. Because I remembered that the strike call had a list

of the demands in it. Didn't it?

L: Yeah, yes, yes.

R: What I want, if you could x just read those demands to us,

L: Yeah, I'd be glad to. Let me see first, I think I got them in

one or these books.

R: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Do you a want me to look too?

I remember what it looks like.

L: Yeah, yeah.

K: It had the strike call on the front, (looking for strike call)

L: No. Oh nere we are.

R: Okay.

L: I've got to change my glasses. Excuse me. (crackle](inaudible conver-

sation about the glassesx and the list of demands)

R: I have a list of them anyhow so if you don't have them on yours,

L: It should be in here, (crackle continues) Here we are. Do you want

me to read it?

k : Just read it exactly the way.

k (the crackle still continues)

page 5

xx First demand: Recognition of the union.

Second: We demand the 10% advance in wages on tonage rates,

xxxxxx Third: We demand an 8 hour work day for all classes

of labor in or around the coal mines and at the coke ovens,

Fourth: We demand pay for all mill work and dead work which

includes brushing, timbering, removing falls, handling

impurities and so forth.

Fifth: We demand the checkweighman at all mines to be elected

by the miners without any xxxxxxxxxxxx interference from

c company officials in said election.

Sixth: We demand the right to trade in any store we please and

the right to choose xxx our own xxx boarding places and

our own doctor.

Seven: We demand the enforcement of the Colorado mining laws

and the abolition of the notorious and criminal guard

system which has prevailed in the mining camps of Colorado

for many years.

Demands were unanimously approved and John Lawson read the policy

committe instruction tor the strike. Door was not yet tightly

closed. Mother Jones had been willing grant the operators

48 hours to consider, 24 hours is not enough. They might have

champaign (campaign) judge on.xxx The policy committee went

further and give tnem a xx xx week preparation for strike

went forward. That's it.

Yeah. Do you, then at that time, the policy committee

ah they gave the operators time to reply.

Yeah.

in your opinion why wouldn't they nego . . , the operators wouldn't

negotiate those demands.

page 6

L:

R:

L:

R:

uh no. NO.

Could you say those words for our script?

Absolutely not. They refused to, they refused to meet us

individually or collectively. They just turned us down flatly.

And in fact they made fun our xx of it. Yeah, so the miners

came out on the strike. xxxx The only thing they had left.

They try to live up to the law. The law was ah, xxxxx you

could tell in those demands what the law required for them to do.

But they didn't do it.

Why? What was going on in their minds?

Why? Because it was the xxxxxxxxxx autocratic rule of the employers

or those days that they never budged a xxxx minute to try to

recognize the xxx worker as a human being. Especially in a large

industry. Steel industry, coal industry, automobile industry

all of those thingsxxxxxxxx were no more no less than a slave

to be because the employers were autocratic x so terribly

that the god sent xxxxx forth Roosevelt in xxxxxx 1932. I

tell many union men of today who struggling for organized labor

and fighting all the time, I say listen ah good quality of

human race, ah created equal xxxx but not all alike. They

different in workability and they different in the struggle of

what to do. We had 8 hour law here that the miners should

work no more than 8 hours in any one day, 24. The company

worked them 10 hours. The check xxxxxxxxxxxx went on the tipple

and the miners paid him, not the employer paid him, but they

themselves paid him. Company wouldn't let him go on the tipple.

Now those are the such a things in those days that forced men

to do what we did during that xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx struggle.

page /

L:

R:

L:

R:

L:

R: Were you on the policy committee? Were you around when that was being written?

L: No, I was not on the policy committee, policy committee was president

of the district, ah secretary/treasurer, international board member

John Lawson, and Frank Hayes. Now four of those xxxxxx were policy

committee, I was vice president or the district. I was elected

during the strike. Not on the policy committee, I was one of

those xxxxxxxxxxxxxx fellas in the organization, like Mother Jones

and a lot of others, that carried out the instruction of the

policy committee amonst the miners who carried on the struggle,

R: The policy committe wrote a letter to the xxxxxxxx operators after

this.

L: Yeah.

R: One final try to keep them from, to say we don't want to strike if you willR: I was wondering if you could read that letter for us. consider

this. Ik Sure. have a copy

of theR: This is the exact letter, we haven't changed any of it. letter.

L: Oh yeah. For many years the coal miners of Colorado have

had desires of working under union conditions, As you no doubt

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

know have made this desire known on numerous occasions.

A large number of them being discharged because of their

wishes in this respect. While we know your past policy

has been one of the _______ no position to our union, we are

hopeful that at this time you will look at this matter in a

different way. And will meet with us in a joint xxxxxxxxconference

tor the purpose of amicable adjustment of all points of issue

in the present controversy. We are in no more of desire x of the

strike than you are and it seems to us that we owe it to our

respective interests as well as the general public to make every

honest effort to adjust our differences in an enlightened manner.

page 8

K: Okay. Thank you. But still the company's x didn't do anything.

L: Oh xxx no, no.

R: In fact we have a quote here that Rocky Mountain Fuel wrote

a letter back and said we know of no differences between

our company and its employees. There is nothing to arbitrate.

L: That's right.

R: They took a hard line. Who are, the three main companies in those

days?

L: Rocky mountain . . . Colorado Fuel and Iron Company was the top

one. And the Victor American Fuel Company and Rocky Mountain Fuel.

Now those were the three companies that could avoid the strike

x if they just have met us together and even if they didn't

recognize the union just so they met with the representatives

of their own people and the representatives of the union and

talk things over. The struggle could have been x avoided. But

no.

R: A lot of death. Ah, in the middle of September Mother Jones

came down and made a speech. Just before on xxxx xxx September

15, the strike xxx was the 23rd? Ah, she made a speech. Would

you want to read her speech? Or just one paragraph, just that

much, would you want to read that?

L: (chuckle) Yeah, I'll read it.

R: Okay, you xx could start, you could start right here.

L: Yeah. Un September 15 1913 the miners at Trinidad, Mother Jones

the 80 yearx old veteran of labor wars stood up and said.

If you are too cowardly to fight for your rights there are enough

women in this country to come and beat hell out of you. If it

is slavery or strikes xx I say strike until the last one of you

page 9

page 10

drops into your grave, strikes (you don't want to read this

where you draw a xxx line across it).

R: No, we don't, it doesn't.

L: we are going to stay here in southern Colorado until the

banner of the industrial freedom floats over every coal mine.

We are going to stand together and never surrender.

k: Shex was quit a lady wasn't she?

L; Oh yean, yeah wonderful soul.

R: AH, tell us what it was like on that day September 23 when the

strike started and if you can start your xxxxxx sentence like

the day the strike started.

L: well . . .

R: . . . what the people were doing.

L: I, I, I happened to go to Ludlow when those men and women

were moving in on the ground. xxx Lawson and I and a xxx

couple of other boys that wax were working with me; Italian

and a spanish american. __________ _ A fella by the name

of Bernardo Verna from Illinois he was Italian and the Spanish

American was, l can't think of his name. But the, we got there

and it was snowing. 22nd, 23rd day of September was snowing

to beat the devil. And ah the railroad companies in kahoots

with the coal companies failed to delivery the tents. They held

them back, for some reason. So those men and women were dumping

their furniture right in that slush and snow and water on the ground

there and nothing to keep it covered. We had, we bought a big

tent, was 40 by 75 belong to the contractor and we set it up and

that was the only thing that we had for those people, the women

and children to get in out of xxxxxx that moisture see. And ah

finally tents come and we had to get some help to get them up,

to get them setted up.

K: How many people came down from Ludlow?

L: h o w many? Between 12 and 1500.

R: That was a lot of people.

l : OHHHHHH yeah I should say so. They dumping their furniture there,

of course a good many of the men who were more xxx able to do it

ah moved to Trinidad; nad homes. But you take xxxx actually the

ones that came to Ludiow is the ones with no means that everything

had to be furnished and xxxxxx supplied by the miners union or

else they were broke.

K: Could you tell xx us where x were all of the tent colonies?

Ludlow.

L: Ludlow was one, Aguilar was x one,xxxxxxxxxxx one was in Walsenburg

one was in xxxxxxx Sopris, one in the Forbes and the one in Trinidad

was not put up til the Ludlow was destroyed.

R: Ah, in September even while the strike wasn't even called yet.

Jeff Farr we know swore in xxxxxx deputies, 259 deputies.

L: Oh hell, he had them on all the time. Those were just . . .

K: Could you say it in a whole sentence Jeff Farr.

L: Those were brought in from West Virginia you see they had

a big struggle down in W. Virginia, and the guys that came xxxxxxx

into Colorado, Jeff and the Fella in Trinidad, x a fella by the name

of Grisum, Jim Grisum x he was the sheriff. But he was, ________

was the one Walsenburg, one in WaIsenburgtold me he was the king

long before the strike. He said I was the king, and if you want

to do any of your dirty work you're not going to do it while

I'm xxxxxxxx sheriff. And I got beat up, shot at.

page il

R: Who paid these deputies?

L: Huh?

R: Who paid the deputies?

t: Coal xxxxxxxx company, sure.

K: That's a lot of people . . ,

L: They were doing the dirty work for the coal xxxxx company,

so the company paid them.

K: Even when they were deputies.

l : Sure.

R: _____________

L: in other words they got licenses to shoot at us and without even

x being thrown in jail if any of the poor coal miners got killed.

Veah.

R: Did ah, . . .

L: Excuse me. That's all right, x that's all right.

(scratchy)

R: Was Farr a company man?

L: who?

R: Was Farr a company man?

L: Ohhhhh that son or a bitch.

R: Could you say that he was and explain how he was connected, what

was his . . .

L: Look ah, they didn't even have an election down there. We proved

before the congress during the strike, House of Representativesx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx send the committee to investigate the strike.

We had people that came before that committee to testify that they

voted nos, voted people that were not citizens, voted everything

come on in, go to work, go to work. xxx Not citizens, that's all right

page 12

come on in. Yeah.

R: Who won this election?

L: Hun?

R: Who won this xxxxxxxxxx election?

L: Oh, oh, you can't beat anything like that. NO. Wnen the miners

came out on the strike that's when we went xxxxxxxx in to fight

because we ah what we did there is the fella that actually helped

xxx us out. He was on a police force in St. Louis and he came

out and one of the, a mine clerk in one of the company offices,

xx see, and he made affidavit to show what company was trying to

do and x now they were trying to frame these elections with the

Jeff Farr and the county officials. Jeff Farr xxxwasn't the

only stooge for the coal xxxx company but everybody that run on

the Republican ticket in the county xxx would stooge with him

go for the company see? The result was that this man helped us

to get a all of the papers necessary to file from district court

a ll the way on to the supreme court of the State of xxxxxxxx

Colorado. And the Supreme Court throwed tne gang out of the xx office.

See? xxxxx After the election sure they stoled it, we had it

proved and everything how they stoled it and everything else.

So the bupreme Court kicked them out and xxxxxxx brought in people

who were running against them to put them in the offices.

R: What happened to Jeff Farr then, where did he go then?

L: Well the son of a bitch died in about a year or so.

R: Ah.

L: Yeah, yeah.

R: What did he die of?

L: Died in walsenburg.

page 13

R: In bed or did somebody shoot him or what?L: No, x he ju s t took sick he couldnt take i t . Yeah,R: Where did the miners get x t he ir xxxxx guns?L: We bought them.K: Who?L: The mine workers, to defend x ourselves, I got one here myself,R: Yean, we've seen i t .L: Yeah.K: So, the mine, could you say that the union xxxxxxxxxxxx bought

the guns fo r the miners.L: They had to.k : But could you say i t , because we need i t fo r the sc rip t.L: Why, we had to buy them to defend ourselves. To protect ourselves.R: Sure, ah.l : We you, when you don't get any protection from the law you got to

protect yourselves. Yeah.R: Did ah, then, so t he county is xxxx swearing in guards and the

company is paying the guards, right? (scrathy) They are supplying t he guns, the company bought the guns fo r them.

L: Oh hel l yes.<

R: Okay, out the company wanted Ammons to send the m i l i t ia . Fly understanding, when we talked to you last time, you said that the companies wanted the m il i t ia to send In to do the s tr ike breaking so that t he state would pay fo r i t and that they companies wouldn't have to pay fo r i t .

L: That's r ig h t, the company even xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx dumped th e irown guards that they were paying, put a uniform on and le t the state pay i t to protect th e ir own in te rests .

page 14

R: Could you say something. could you read this one because

this x is exactly what you are saying, the operators are trying

to force Governor Ammons to send in the state militia in order

to take over strike breaking duties.

L: That's right.

R: Could you read that? Can you read my xx writing?

L: I think so.

R: Is that what you had said before?

L: No I can't read this.

R: it says that the operators were trying to force Governor Ammons

to send in the state militia in order to take over strike xxx

breaking duties.

l : Right that's correct.

K: Do you want to read it for us so we could nave it on tape or?

xxx You can't read my writing that's okay,

L: I he operators were trying to force Governor Ammons to send in

the state militia of the

R: in order to take

L: In order to transfer the

k : strike xxxxxxx breaking

L: strike breaking to the militia.

R: Yeah, what ah, they, you told us about the death xxxx special

before, the armored car.

l : Well, ah, it's right in this book here.

R: Yeah, what was it used tor, what did they use that car for?

To scare or did they shoot with it?

L: (chuckle) that they use.There it is.

K: There it is. Yeah, I've seen it.

page l5

R: What did they, how did they?

L: Now there is a machine gun, if you get, walk up closely,

it's in there and they use to drive up close to the tent

colony, turn the machine gun on the tent colony.

R: Ah, at xxxxxx Forbes xxx once didn't they shoot a little boy in the

leg?

L: Yeah.

R: Could you tell us about that.

L: This kid in here, there is a picture of him in here. There he is.

K: Yeah. What did they do with the death xxxxxxx special?

L: Yeah, naturally there was a tent colony there when they turn the

machine gun they killed him.

R: Ah, on October 28th the Governer finally sent in the militia.

l : Yeah.

R: could you say that, could you say on October 28?

L: On October 28, yes the militia came in and ah . . .

R: Why did he decide to do it, why did ammons decide ?

L: Well, Governor Ammons was a x very, very weak person, He didn't

have any backbone. And ah, he played, he told us a lot of stuff

there but xxxxxxxxxxx finally xxxxxxxxxxx he weakened that

the reason that we had to arm ourselves you can't stand for a

bunch of thugs come there with the 5O, 60 men with machine guns

and rifles and everythingelse and with armless women and children

there with nothing. We had to arm ourselves to protect our life.

And naturally the result was that the after the militia came in

the original guys that were in militia after they were in there

for about a month or two they decided that the strike was going

to last for so long the wanted to get out of the xxxxxxx national

page 16

guard and go back home and take carex of their business

because they were drawn in there because ot the strike and they

xxxxxxxx figures well it will only last a month or six weeks

it will be over with and I'll be back home, WHen they found

out the dog gone thing was going to last six or seven monthsThis

and they wanted to get out. Regular citizenx got mustered out of

the xxxxxx militia and the xxx guards xx put in. xx Paid by thewhether he

company, I couldn't say xxxxxxx was paid by state or not

but he was paid x by the company to put on a state uniform

that x was completely licensed to kill other people. So we had

to do certain things whether we like it or not.

K: Who was in charge of the state militia?

L: General xxxxx Chase.

R: Could you say General Chase was in charge ot the . . .

L: Right.

R: Could you say that for me, that whole thing?

KxL: General Chase was in charge of the militia, these guys in here

were the guys that were, Linderfelt was the biggest murderer

that ever lived.

R: And what about, Linderfelt was a company guard before he was

in the militia.

L: Yeah.

R: He got some people . . .

L: That's right, that's right.

k : Could you say that?

L: Yeah.

R: lei I me about Linderfelt?

L: Well he was the biggest thug that ever lived. Here xx he is

page 17

there they are. Pat _______ was the guy that was suppose to be

in xxxxx charge of the strike. See? And here is General xxxxx

Chase I'll show you the picture of General Chase. Here's them.

K: Yeah.

L: These are the three officers of the company. Here is General Chase,

Here's Jeff Farr.

R: Yep.

L: Here's Mother Jones, xx Hawkins and Lawson,

R: Ah,

l : Ah,

R: So Lindertelt faught miners before he was in the national guard?

L: This is the guy right in here, xxxxx these are brothers.

R: xxx Uh hun.

L: For Linderfeit, and P a t ________ ______ was suppose to be in charge,

He was no good, he was saloon keeper in Denver, Yeah.

R: Well I'll get to Ludlow in a minute, I want to ask you a couple of

more questions here. That's perfect. Okay, there was a big

incidence in Trinidad, the women's march.

L: The women;s march?

R: Okay, could you start out by xxxxx describing Mother Jones

and how she got put into San ______ hospital? What kind of a

person she was.

L: Well, the women started out.

R: How did Mother Jones get . . .

L: Wait now, women , women were mobilezed together at the Castle

Hall in Trinidad, and Mother Jones went there and we started out

with them marching towards a, a, a x she was in the xxx hospital

rather than being there, but these women started out from the

page 18

Castle Hall and marched up there and turn into the main street

towards hospital and I was at the post office steps when this

militia on horse back run into them. Yeah.

R: Now General Chase . . .

L: i don't know if General Chase was there personally, but

the a Linderfelt and his gang got somebody to lead those

men on horseback to trample down on those women, the women

were not armed, nobody had anything, all they had was two or

three men there trying to guide them and go along with them

till they got to the post office. And xxx at the post office

the tore them all xx apart.

R: Did you see it happen?

L: Huh?

R: Did you see it happen?

L: Yeah.

R: What happen, did they have sabors out, did they , . ,

L: Well, they just run the horses on them, they either had to move

xxx out or else being crushed down with the horses.

R: In out of the Depths, Beshoar says, ne says this, He said that

General Chase was there and that . . . .

L: He might a have been there xxx but I couldn't say xxxxxxx whether

he was there or not. Of course there was a lot of people there

and you couldn't see everybody.

R: And the newspaper, the Rocky Mountain xxxx xxx news and the

Denver post say this, and they all agree that this is what happen.

Ah, that he got, they xxx were there and his horse reared up

xxx and ne fell off of his horse. Have you heard this? He fell

xxxx off of his horse, and then he got back . . . .

page 19

page 20

L: Well the newspapers saw that, I couldn't say that I xxxxxxxxx

personally saw it.

R: well,

L: But that's what tne newspaper said.

(scratchy)

Man: ________________

L: Oh yeah, you see, we had a fella by the name, he was killed

in xxxxxx Mexico, Don McGregor, Wonderful feller. Many times

he use to get out there, see we, we use to get away from the

tent colony, we didn't want to let those guys get too close

to the tent colony, but, you've been at ludlow haven't you?

Man: Yeah.

L: You know where that old railroad track runs south and southwest

of ludlow there on the hill there? We use to take possession

of that railroad there see? You see there was a D & R G

station down east there as you go down the black hills where

we had to move when the tent colony wasxxxxxxx destroyed, so,

we use to take taht cut and the guards would move, would come on

the trains from Trinidad and naturally they leave the train

about a mile and half away see? And we xxxxxx always got a

call from Trinidad when they xxxx were coming. So we take off,

we get out there and take the position so they wouldn't get too

close to ludlow. Yeah. xx So that was our first line of

defense.

R: That's the tent, but it was this one here. This cut.

L: The railroad, yeah, yeah.

R: This is the main, this railroad is still here.

L: Yeah, I know.

K: No, I’m asking.

L: This is the one that use to run up to xxxxxxDelagua and then

down to the Denver Rio Grande station. And we use to xx take

our position there at the _________so they wouldn't get too

close to the tent colony.

R: So . . .

L: I use to tell poor old Don I said, Don get down you are going to

get hit. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Bullets would be hitting around.

Ahhh, he said . . .

K: He worked for the Denver Express?

L: Denver Express, Denver . . .

R: Did he take pictures?

L: well he takes pictures xxxxx yes. But Don was the, one of the

bravest guy and the straightest xxx guy of all the newspaper

xxxxxx reporters. Those reporters of the newspapers, there

were a lot of guys that were good honest guys but the result

was that the Post and news both were for the coal company

they were against the miners and the Denver xxxxxxx Express was

fair. And Don was the guy he use, when he take a lot of those

pictures and get out there and he would get him self a bottle

and he would get down to the desk and start to write. Take

a shot and then boy when he write the story it really was a good

xxxxxxx story.R: We've read those, we've been reading those.

L: Yeah.

R: Those are good. The Denver Express did give good coverage.

page xxx 21

L: Oh, gosh xxx yes.

R: Yeah, that was a good paper.

l : It was the only xxxxxxx friendly paper we had here.

K: Well there was the Trinidad Free Press . , .

L: The Free Press was a weekly paper you see and of course we had

to buy the damn thing to defend ourselves. And the xxxx

Chronicle News was lousy. xxxxxx Picket Wire was lousy.

xxxxxxxxxxx Is that the telephone?

(rings)

R: __________

L on the phone: ---------------- ------

tape cut

L: xxxxxxxxxx . . . The Rocky Mountain News, He was just a kid

during that struggle. He's about 6 or 7 years old. 1 think

ne is 60, he is going to retire in another year so he xxx ought

to be close to 65. Yeah.

R: His father was in that?

L: Oh yeah, he was out on the strike all the way throughx .

R: More and more people we meet were out on that strike,

L: in fact I xxxxxxxx don't think his father ran back the coal mines,

He came to Denver here and went to work for some lard makers

here in the packing plants there, and worked there until he retired.

He bought a home a out here at Louisville and this xxxxxx son of his

lives at that house. Yeah. His old man was buried here and his

mother was buried here and . . ,

R: So that was in January 1914 when Mother, when the women got xx where

l : xxxxx yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

R: Okay. Now ah March 10 was when they burnt Forbes colony. Do you

page 22

remember anything about, they accused the miners of murdering

a scab and they got the people out of the xxxxxxxxxxxxx Forbes

community and they burnt that. Do you know anything about them

burning Forbes?

L: Ah you mean the tent xxxxxxxx colony?

R: The tent colony.

L: Well, the when that boy was killed you see we had a tent colony

ah use to be a place there a station, the tent colony was not

very far from the xxxxxxxx railroad station where xxxx these

strike breakers use to get out the station and try to go

up to the camp. Well naturally miners were out on a strike

they knew that they got off there and they try to talk to them

and try to prevent them from going up there. And if the guy

didn't act like a human why there possibly might be a fist

xxx tight or something you know. Those things are natural

to happen in a situation like that. So to ah, you want to turn

that off? There is a button right up above there.

K: Oh, I see.

L: There you are, that's it. So ah after they start a little

fight then they come in and destroy the tent colony. Kill,

shot some people and so forth. So we had to move to Trinidad

those that were not injured and got them down into the

trinidad tent colony.

K: That was a new xxxxx tactic that the militia was taking then,

they hadn't burned xxx anything xx before. Do you xxxxx think

that there was a plan x on their part, this is a month

before Ludlow now, were they planning to just systematically

burn down these tents do you think?

page 23

L: Well, the policy of the coal company was to destroy

everything and everybody to try to get the miners to quite

the striking and to go back to work. That was the policy

and the government helped them.

R: Were you . . .

L: The state government.

R: Were you xxxxxxxxxx surprised at the buring of tents, did

you think that would ever come to that?

L: I wasn't surprised at anything. There is a case where anything

can happen.

R: Ah, okay. Well, I think to us and from what you told us last time

and the people that we have talked to us, Louis Tikas was quite

a man.

L: Oh yeah.

R: Could you describe him and tell what his x duties were, with

the union.

L: Just like mine. You out in, keep people united, stike together,

the Greeks, there were the miners of those days were all foreign

born practically all of them. Ah, greeks, polish, russians,

slavacs, yugoslaves, italians, bulgarians, not very many

romanians, but x a few bulgarians were there . . .

R: Yeah.

L: naturally those were the things that we had to keep our people

together with the other groups and ah my job was exactly like

Louie's, xxxxx Louie kept a bunch, he take greeks, ,why they

were pretty good on getting guns and doing the xxxxxxx business.

And ah, of course Louie happened to be at Ludlow during

the day when the tent colony was destroyed. And there, keep

page 24

negotiating with Louie, Louie wanted to negotiate, Louie

xxxx wanted them to quite fighting and so tnat they would

convince the miners to stop fighting see. And ah, and then

when he went from the tent colony across the railroad

track over to the tent colony of the national guards they

kill him. they broke the gun over his head.

K: Tell us about how that happened x exactly, wno killed him

and . . .

L: Linderfelt.

xxxR:Tell us how that happened at . . .

L: Well while they go over there to xx. try to negotiate for this

peace to start, to quite fighting to quite shooting and they

killed him.

xxR: On that day at Ludlow, you were in Trinidad, how did you and

John Lawson know that there was trouble.

L: Telephone, the boys were xxx calling xx that there was shooting

and so John Lawson and I and a fella by the name of

Pete Gorma got in the car and then xx when we got out to the

sutfield which is about 8 miles out of trinidad ah 8 9 miles

out of trinidad, they had another tent colony and the strikers

got, they xxx heard about the fight at ludlow so they run up

to the highway and John Lawson made me to get off of the car

and get down to that tent colony and take care of those people.

And I went down there and while I was there during the day

we were x trying to get enough guns because we know that that

fight was going to go on. We got about 27 guns rounded up through

there and was getting ready to go up there. About 4:00 in the

morning, this is on Tuesday, see, xx it took me all day to get these

page Z5

things because we didn't have any automobiles like we have

today you know, we only had 4 automobiles in the whole county.

So, about 4:00 in the morning we were up all night. The

railroad, then the Rio Grande come right by this tent colony

where I was up with these men. So we stopped the train because

they moving slowly, there was about oh I would say 4 or 5

railroad cars and men were inside of those cars. And we got

on with them. There was 450 men from trinidad on that train,

So we road with them to Lud . . . to got xxxxx down there.

WE couldn't get close enoughx within miles of Ludlow. But we

got out there. And got out there, I knew the road there to get

out there and we moved down towards the Black Hills. And ah

every time somebody come from Trinidad why we, that's where

we use to get them off and go down and mobilize. What we did

at the Black Hills, we mobilize the people to start a fight.

In Aguilar, a fight in Walsenburg, fight in down around

close Trinidad, xxxxxxx because as far as Ludlow was concerned,

Ludlow was xxxxxxxxxxx destroyed, but we want to keep the gang

around trinidad, aroundxxxx ludlow there occupied so xxxxxx

they won't leave there and go start a fight xxxxxx someplace

else.

R: I see.

L: So Lawson and I and Louie was killed of course. He was killed

during the day when the x fight broke out on the 20th. And ah

you see I happened to be in Trinidad because we use to go from

we use to gox from local to local to keep the fellas together.

See:’ And ah, Aguilar, I saw from the place that I was at

the greatest struggle was when I you know you can't get any

hot food. All we had to eat was bread, bolony. And we didn't

page 26

even nave the water, I mean the coffee, because we didn't

dare build the fire because they would see the smoke. And ah,

R: I want to get a, I want to get a xxxxx picture, I want to go to my

car to get a picture to show you because there are some things

I want to ask you about it . . .

L: Yeah, all right.

R: Do l need . . .

L: I better go with you to let you get in. Because the door out there

is locked.

page 27

L: . . . . remember.

R: I know it, that's why we came back. These are, that's the Forbes

mine before . . .

L: An yeah, yeah, yeah.

R: bo, tell me, tell us, finish the story you started to tell us

that ah . . .

L: What we did there before the national guards, no federal troops . ,,

R: Ah huh.

L: When the federal troops were coming in. So we xxxxxxxxxx mobilized

about 175 men they walk from trinidad to forbes to do the job.

And ah, I told the boys when we get up there, well you spread through

the camp, but what happened there, that whenever the stooge was ther

whoever it was must have reported that miners was going to come

there was nobody there w but the women and children. And I told

the men women and children are not to blame so to leave them

xxx alone. But I said if you find any xxxxxxxxx men its up to x you

to do whatever you want to do with them. All the men were in the

mine.

R: Hiding.

L: There were down in the mine.

R: So these pictures here then . . .

L: So all they did was to destroy some houses, but they didn't bother

any x people.

R: But these, these are after they,

L: Yeah.

R: That's after right?

L: Yes.

R: This is forbes, see they are all at forbes,

L: Yeah.

R: This is where you got even. You started to get even,

L: (chuckle) yeah.

xxxR: xx- Have you ever seen xxxxx these pictures?

L: No , no I didn't see them, (chuckel) yeah. I saw one there, right down

here when xxxx these houses were destroyed. When they ruined the

tent xxxx colony we destroyed all the houses too.

R: it wasn't only forbes, what other places did you go?

L: Well, let's see, you see . . .

R: The southwestern I think.

L: NO, the Soprisx they xx didn't have any tent colony. The miners

were all living in the houses, but the Segundo, we went into

Primero, but the miners were. . .walked from Segundo to Primero

but they didn't bother anything up there because oh there wasn't

much too . . . because most of xxxx those men went to work.

R: That's the one you were talking about?

L: Yeah.

page Z8

R: You were mad I mean, men and women had been killed, the miners,

you must have been very angry.

L: Well, the women and children were not killed.

R: No, at ludlow I mean, two days before that.

L: Oh yeah, they were xxxxxx killed at ludlow yes sure.

R: So that must have made the sssss miners. . .

l : Well of course the miners were so dog gone madx you see that

hole, where is that picture with the hole, i got one here , .

R: You mean at ludlow?

L: X Yeah.

R: No, this is forbes.

L: Oh, this forbes.

K: This is the mine at forbes, yean we do have the picture of the

hole, I know the one you mean. Could you explain . . .

L: It's in that book.

R: Yeah, sure I've seen that alot.

L: Ah , there were two women and 11 children in that hole and they

thought that xxxxxxxxx possibly when they burned the tent

colony they would be protected. They got suffocated to death

because when they burned the tent colony at the top and they

had a floor there in the tent colony and the hole down there

that you get in there and fixed up x for them, that's how they

were killed tnere.

R: Yeah.

l : Suffocated to death. And besides what they, you see that book

there, there was about 20 some people killed there.

K: Yeah.

L: Yeah.

page 29

R: That shocked the whole nation didn't it?

L: xxxxx Shocked the nation I should say so. I xxxx met the train

that came from Trinidad by the black Hills, there were 450 men

there and not a coal miner xxxxxxxx amongst them. They were all

citizens, every walks of life, businessmen, bar tenders, saloon

xxxxxx keepers, xxxxxxxx railroad clerks, plumbers, all the

carpenters, see . . .

R: Yeah.L: They got people aroused and they were ready to fight.

Law meant nothing.

R: Yep.

l : Yeah.

R: Even in New York, people marched.

L: Oh yeah, New York was wild. Yeah, yeah, they wanted to mobilize

the nation.

R: That was the closest you xx could come to out right war.

xxL: Well, see at that time the trouble was in this country of ours

that labor were not recognized as a human being. Corporation

was so dog gone dominate of the government throughout the nation.

The only thing that I always tell a a lot of these fellas of today,

l say you men don't realize what the men and women of labor

had to go through before Roosevelt time when he was elected as

President.

xx Woman: May I come in?

R: Yes, come in.

L: And then, come in . . .

R: How are you?

L: Now these xxxxxxxxx are the boys , , .

xx Mrs. Yeah I think I met these boys before.

page JO

R: I'm Ron.

Mrs: xxxx You're Ron.

E: I'm Eric.

Mrs: I remember the boys. Are you getting along and having a good time.

L: Oh we're getting along alright.

Mrs: (chucKle)

R: it's xxxxxxxxxxx interesting.L : S o

t h e . . . .

Mrs.: ___________

L: I usually tell them I say now you can talk, you can talk all you

want to about your x bravery and I said you didn't have to duck

the guns. I said when I use to go and I never come out with the

same route walk in, see, and a fella told me one time he said

xxxxx Mike you are pretty clever,xxxxxxxx he say, xxx when you go

into the ca mp you sneak in at night and you never go out by the

same route. I said no, because you might be waiting for me

down there. They said, we did. (chuckle) You see, and ah I said

today all you have to do working man when they get so that they

wanted to nave a union, sign up a bunch a cards and go down to

the xxxxxxxxx lobby and they xxx will xx lobby to give you an

election and you can vote whether you want a union or not. And I

said that's the freedom, you don't have to worry about being clubbed

you don't have to worry about loosing your job. You don't have to

worry about anything. But you xx got to conduct yourself as a

citizen. You got to learn the law and no what it means and all that

kind of stuff and 1 said we didn't have that chance,

R: well Ludlow broke ground for xxx other people then. Not just for

miners.

page 31

L: I'd say, the struggle, the coal miner struggle was a xxxx struggle

for a ll the working people of this country. Yeah.

R: Yeah.

L: Yeah.

K: I was going to tell you, we brought, I told Mike, We are in the

process of xxxxxxx finishing our final script for this thing.

But, so we are asking some x very specific questions. We ah,

we brought a little bit of a snow that should last about ten minutes

that we have done on him because we had to do a demonstration

for some people so they could see how it worked and we told him

that we would show it to you would you like to see it.

Mrs: Yes.

R: it takes us about 5 or 10 xxxxxx minutes to set it up, because

there is so much equipment.

Mrs: Sure.

R: But we would like to show it to you.

Mrs; Well I'd like to see it.

R: We didn't bring down a screen so we might have to project it onto

a wall or something is that okay?

Mrs: Yes.

R: You don't have a movie screen do you?

Mrs/ No, no we don't have.

R: Well we forgot, we x knew we would forget something.

Mrs: He hasn't seen it yet then?

E: We wanted to show it to both of you at the same time,

R: We didn't want to take up your whole day but we wanted . . .

Mrs: This is a little showing . . . . when they took it the last xx time.

L: Yeah, yean.

page 32

L: You go ahead and set it up. Ix didn't think you were going to come.

Mrs: I didn't want to spend any more of your money so I came home.

L: Oh. You don't want to spend my money. It's not yours huh?

MRS: (laugh) No. Which wall do you think would be the best?

R: Well i don't know, we're just hunting and hahing. Ahhhh, we got

xxxxxx a lot ot wall to show it on. (laugh)

E: We could show it here could we move that picture?

Mrs.:Sure.

L : How about that Ron?

R : x x x x x x l don't think we'd nave a big enough, it's two screens

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx it's two images liKe that. I don't think we

have a high enough table there Eric?

Mrs.: How about, where that picture there is?

R: Yean, right in this corner here.

Mrs: That corner there?

R: Yeah.

Mrs: Do you want to take the lamp away?

R: Yeah we would if . . .

L: Yeah you have to take the lamp off.

Mrs.: Well.

R: Just let me xxx think a second here.

Mrs: Yeah.

K: We'll look around xxx one more time. I think the only practical

place is to scoot the table back in the corner and show it right

over there in that corner.

Mrs: (cross talk)

R: unfortunately we've had to drag a lot of equipment in, I'd like

to get Mike's reaction to this and your reaction.

page d3

page 34

Mrs: Yes, uh huh.

R: So we' il just do it you go sit down.

Mrs: You'll be okay.

(cross talk)

Mrs: Oh, that's going to be in your way. . . . . . . . .

end of Livoda I30-A

Livoda 130-B

R: And then we are going to ask people to reflect on what this

all means and the title of it is Coal Mining As A Way of Life.

And what it meant to these people and what they are doing now.

Mrs: x And of course you do have all authentic pictures, they are

just real true pictures, pictures that really . . .

L: Oh yeah.

Mrs: That's wonderful. Did you get some of xxx those down x at the

library?

R: Some at the state historical, some at the Denver Public Library,

and ah oh all around. Some here and there.

E: We have about 2000 photographs.

Mrs: Oh my goodness, you got alot of them.

t: So xxxxxxxx you've only seen just a few.

Mrs: You've got to have a regular file to Keep all of these.

E: We do.

R: Well and xxx plus one thing that the UMW like is that we aRe

getting all of this together because so many of these photos

are scattered here and there and newspapers headlines that

we are going to put in that say what happened that day in the

newspaper and we are getting a whole collection together so that

this will all be historically preserved.

Mrs: Yeah and then you will have it all . . .

L: Did you talk to this guy Bill Hortado?

K: Uh huh.

L: Is he a coal miner's son or xxxxx somebody down there?

R: i think he mined at the Raton, Trinidad at the Alien Mine,

Mrs: He was xx at the Allen Mine MiKe.

L: I know, but I thought possibly if he was raised in Trinidad, that he possibly might be a coal miners son.

K: We didn't even ask him.

t: I don't know.

L: See I know Hortado. THe one Hortado that I know I don't think

I told him that.

Mrs: This is a younger man.

L: Well, the guy that I know, . ,

R: Hortado is probably about . . .

L: The guy that I know xxx was my age and he was secretary of the

local union. Very fine fella. Spanish American.

Mrs: Did you ever ask this fella if it was his father or anything to him?

L: I have never seen him.

Mrs: Well you haven't seen him for quite x some time. Of course he was

xxx reelected . . .

R: Hortado?

Mrs: Yes Hortado. Who was the other xxxx fella in there?

K: I don't know in there, I know that Halamandaris is the international

board member. We met Arnold Miller at a meeting here in Denver a

few weeks ago. We showed him this.

Mrs: What did he say?

R : He liked it. He wants to have this historical preservation.

He says, most of you people don't know, but he said I faught

the Baldwin Felts down in West Virginai and he said I faught those

guys.

L: Yeah.

R: He's worried that a lot of the knew people . . .

L: Somebody told me . . .

(cross talk)

L : Somebody xxxxx told me that Miller made the remark one time xxx about

page 36

page 37

forget the past and carry on. I said anybody that was in that

struggle cannot forget it.

Mrs: I don't think, I think that was misquoted.

R: Yeah. What he told us, he said that I think that the history

xxxx is the most xxxxxxxxxx important, he said I think that Ludlow

was the very first time in this country x that labor stood up to

tne bosses and he said I think that we won battles at Ludlow for

all the unions. And he's very proud of that history. He in fact,

Arnold xxxxxx Miller wants to give us a grant to do the film.

Mrs: Well I think maybe . . .

L: He should, he should.

Mrs: If you can get to Arnold Miller, and what's that slavish fellas

name Mike?

L: Terbovic?

Mrs: Terbovic, was he with him?

R: No, I don't think so.

Mrs: He's the ah . . .

L: He's the vice president.

Mrs: vice president, and quite a learned fella, and he's a self made man

but he's pretty good. We met him one time at Ludlow but I couldn't

see how Arnold Miller would ever with having, with just shoving this

oft.

R: No.

Mrs: I . . .

K: He seemed pretty . . .

Mrs: Enthused about it.

R: Yeah.

Mrs: Well he . . .

L; See, the ah, the ah history and not only what I did with the coal

miners but in 1918 John Lewis was president then see? After the

armistice was signed, armistice was signed on the llth day of

November and on the 18tn day of November I got ordered to report

to WZ Foster in the McGee building, Pittsburgh PA.

Mrs: Maybe you've told them that?

L: I xxxxxx don’t think so, I don't know.

K: A little bit about it, but is that, did you work with the steel

workers or . . .

Mrs; They borrowed him back there because of his . . .

L: To organize the steel workers beginning there. They sent me to

youngstown. Youngstown had 45000x steel workers, that Youngstown

Steel and Tube is very powerful corporation. There were 3 men

there about 8 9 months. So I ask him I said how many people you

sign up here? Uh he said a couple of xxxxxxxx hundred. xx That's

all in 6 months? He said they don't come to the meeting. Well I

said, ah how do you hold a meeting? One meeting a week, in the

heart ot the town see? You never organize the xxx steel workers

those days because men work past, he don't punch clock until after

6:00. And by the time he cleans up and gets supper it's time to

go to bed. I say he can't come to meetings. What do you think

xxxx ought to be done? We got to take the meeting right just as

close where he lives. And that policy brought the 22000 steel

workers into the union, when I got ordered to report to the

committee in Calgary Canada we had 22000 men signed up.

Mrs: I hen he went back with the mine workers.

L: Yeah. But I worked, I worked day and night Sunday and all,

I had all of those guys, you got to get out there you got a meeting

page 38

you got to go out there. Yeah.

Mrsx :I never xxxx saw him half of the time.

l : Yeah.

Mrs: Nearly parted our marriage.

R: I'll bet.

L: Heck a lot of the old fellas that use to work for the

AFOL the o l d _______ people, most of those guys were of the

retiring age. And they come in there I represent the AFOL

and the so and so and so, and hell you got to get out there

to the work of the, needs of the union get out there, it's

not organized, talk to them. Tell them what has to be done

if they are going to get any place with it. And in those

days wages was the most xxxxxxxx important thing. 1 worked

in a steel mill for xxxxxxx $1.75 tor 12 hours.

R: Whooo.

L: 17¢ an hour. Yeah.

K: That is slavery isn't it?

L: Well.

Mrs: Slavery is right and you are told what to do too.

L: The first of the year I was there, I only had about 2 days off

a year: Fourth of July and Christmas. Seven days a week, steel

Mrs: Now the men get 13 weeks xxxxxx with pay after they have been

there for 20 years.

L: The only reason (cross talk) the only reason I left there because

most of the people that were working in the steel plants, my father

xxxxxxx worked there.

Mrs; He came over there and then went back.

L: I was in a school when he came over. Then he come back to the old

page 39

country and was getting ready to come back. My mother say no,

I was out of school then, you stay home take care of the family

and let him go. That was me. And I came and I never been back.

And I don't want to go. She want to go back and I say I have

got nothing over there. People that I know are all dead and gone

why go there to talk to the strangers.

Mrs: I want to see Switzerland and Germany (cross talk)

R: See the country.

L: They possibly those that living those that mention my name

they xxxxx think that l am dead. (laugh) Yeah.

Mrs: What honey?

L: I said that anybody that would mention my name a over there

they would think that I am dead.

Mrs: Oh sure, sure.

R: You o-ght to do it.

Mrs: Yeah, I think it would be a wonderful thing. An He said I'll take

you, we went to xxxx Hawaii for a month and we went to xxxxx NASA

but I would rather go to those other countries if i could.

R: sure.

Mrs: And I would love to go to Spain too. It's very interesting.

R: Wait until the trouble gets over in Spain, (cross talk)

Mrs: Those other countries would be wonderful to go to.

R: That brings up something here. Are you comfortable here I have

acouple more questions?

Mrs: Yeah.

L: Oh yeah.

R: Are you getting tired?

L: No, no, no.R: You're getting tired of question though.

page 40

L: Yeah, you . . .

Mrs: No, no, that's alright.

L: you shoot.

R: Okay, ah, foreigners when they came to Colorado. How did they

know to come to Colorado to mine coal. You named all of the

different nationalities that that were around here, where did they

here about Colorado? How did they, where did they hear about

Colorado do xxx you think and how did they come here?

L: How did they come here?

K: Yeah.

L: Most x of those men come from the old country. You know

the companies use to import the people from over there to

ah what they use to do xxx once the companies in those days

once they find out that there was a restless bunch a of miners

the eliminated them and brought in a new influx. That's the

way they broke those things down. Yeah.

MRS: May I just mention this? The use to give some guys that

theyxxxxxxx figured would be a pretty good company man like

_______ and them, the saloon, they x would run the saloons

for them, not the men they give it too, they would make all the

profit and you know these people came out practically millionaires.

And then there was the understanding xxx though you we would

xxxxx send to the old country you know a lot of people over there

and you bring them over here, (cross talk)

L: You stock the the saloon keepers.

Mrs: And that's the way it started. And they would give them this

___________________ the two that got the saloon in Dawson, New

Mexico and I knew them all they were in Trinidad.

L: Saloon keepers.

page 41

Mrs: And that's where it started. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxx And they would give them this, the xxxx Tollers got

the saloon in __________ , __________ got the saloon in

Dawson, New Mexico and I knew them all they were in Trinidad

because I . . . . xxxxxx went to school

L: Saloon Keepers you see?

Mrs: with some of their children. Ana they were all wealthy at that

timex. But they were over there and they were told to bring,

and that's where you got the start of these people to come

to the Mexico, to Colorado some of them maybe xx went to other

states, but that's where it came from you see? And they would

send them their fare and everything. Of course they took it

back when they made their money. But they would send the fare

to those people and they would say well I x know so and so over

there and so and so and would like to get to this country so they

brought them over. And they used these one men, had been given

the saloon and or course the miners were heavy drinkers as we

all know, they all like their drink. They made a fortune.

Now in Trinidad,

L: A fella by the name of . . .

Mrs: . . . the home in Trinidad . . .

L: A fella by the name of John Iyellow??? use to be banker, use to

have a store and a saloon in Berwin, that's the CF&I. Colorado

Fuel and Iron (cross talk) and he use to send for the Italians

came from old xxxxxx country to come to this x country.

Mrs: And that's where the influx came to these different places. They

were sent for and brought over and they thought it was a big x deal

and a lot of them didn't know they were coming over to break the

page 42x

strike.

R: Henry Mathias said they would soap up the windows on the train

and just bring them right into town.

Mrs: Yes, so you couldn't see them,

R: Why did they do that?

Mrs: Well, they didn't want them identified because thex miners

might get after them.

R: Uh huh.

Mrs: And they just brought them in secretly,

R: So . . .

Mrs: One time remember when they xx brought all of those Japs in

Mike.

L: Yeah.

Mrs: I hey brought a lot of xxxx Japs in,

L: You see Union Pacific Railroad Company brought in the Japs

and Chinese into Rock Springs Wyoming to break the early struggle

of the coal miners,

Mrs: They didn't stay long they left.

L: Yeah, but the miners got organized in the, let's see, they got

organized in xxxx 1900 I think, 1900 when the Union Pacific

xxxxxx finally xx gave in.

Mrs: See that's where, that answers your question as to how they came

to these different xx places,

R: bo they would come to New York, come to Ellis island or did the

company have people waiting there for them?

Mrs: Ready tor them.

L: Oh yeah.

Mrs: Ship them to this to that and you are my group and this is his group.

page 43

And then they got tne information from the man that was running

their, that well they gave them x the saloon and he made all the

profit this man did xxxxxx because they all turned out x very

wealthy, The Tollers, th e________ .

K: Where the Terabinos like that too?

Mrs: No, no the Terabinos were not like that. No they came in more

or less x on xxxx their own the Terabinos.

L: You see, the mass production . . .

Mrs: ________ was

L: Mass production industry never could establish union in the

automobile industry, steel xxx industry or even good many coal

mines. But coal miners had the union established in the

eastern state and from there they were the influence led into

organize these other xxxxx groups that were not xxxxxxxxx

organized, xxxx John Lewis, I got to give John a credit for

one thing, that when the CIO was created when they broke away

from the AFL, he established the policy to spend coal miners

money to send out their people that were like myself to

steel industry xxx and the automobile industry, textile, rubber.

Nowxxxxx those, that that that industry was not organized

and the AFL could never organize them for this reason. Because

of the crafts, you mobilize a bunch of people together get them

together. See, got them influenced to join the union ana sign

up the card then you start to divide them up. This one goes

to this union, this one goes* to this union, tnat goes to the

other union. The guy says what the hell is this? This is not

no union. We got in here so that we could combine ourselves together

and form the strength there and when we join discover that you just pull this one over here pull that one well. I remember one time

page 44

I was back there xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ________ you see. And the,

we got them together, we sign up first time we had a meeting

there at the Hazel ton or Youngstown there about 5 miles sign up

/00 people. And ah after we got them signed up and pretty soon

some of these fellas come to me say what is this Mike they said.

I thought we were going to have a union, now that we are organized

they said, the start pulling me, they tell me to go over here to

this group, this guy go to the other group, I said we'll change

that it will take time. So xxxxxx John xxxxxx Lewis decided

that these industries, the industry should be organized on

industrial xxxxx basis. And it was the xxxxxxxCongress of

industrial Organization that did it. X Not the AFL, they

organized the xx rubber, they x organized the auto, Rooter Boys,

i can tell you about Rooter boys, the story that an old man

worked in a brewery, 10 miles below xx Wheeling West Virginia

on the West Virginia side. That's where those boys were born.

You send tnem to Germany for two years after they got through

high school here to go to college. x Then as they got through

there two years xxxxx then they send them to Russia and stay

in Russia two years they understood that, they found out the

philosophy and principles of Nazism. Then when they went into

Russia they got communism from the foundation. Then when got,

meet the Rooter boys you xxxxx can discuss communism because

they know it. They know now it existed, what they doing, and

what it is. Nazism is the same way. And they are the guys

when they came in went over there old xxx Adolph xxx Girma told

me he told the Walter go in and get a job at Ford and then

I will give you the job as an organizer. And I saw the picture

page 45

where he and his, find out later on he was a foot ball player

went to xxxxxx college, Walter and this guy were out there

xxxxxx passing the hand bills in front of the Ford plant

and the guards come along and pull the coats over them, clubbing

the hell out of them. Beating them up. And Ford was a dirty

outfit to work. Ohhhh. Slavery in the automobile industry.

Till the automobile came in, organized them and made them decent

places to work. xxxxxxxx Packing plants was the same way. Yeah.

R: Yeah but it was the, John L.xxxx Lewis there is . . .

L: Well the industrial, Congress of Industrial Organization, you see

it was the organization of several of xxxxx these like

Sidney Hillman who was from the xxxx Amalgomated Clothing Workers

you see that was the x sweat shops in New York and different

places those people. And AFL couldn't do nothing, so he had

to start it himself. xxxxxxxxxx Organizing Chicago, then from

Chicago he went to New York and organized it himself.

Mrs: See they threw them all into something where they would have more

voice, then just having all little unions. John L. Lewis if we

put them all into one we would have more power.

L: Yeah.

R: Do you think that labor would be in even better position if

if there was the xxxxxx capability of calling general strikes

now? Do you think that that could happen? That could happen

under one union now.

Mrs: Oh yes.

L: a H, I don't think thatxxxx the labor in this xxx country would

want to call a general strike unless there was a necessity. They

would if it was a necessity. And ah the fact of the matter is if

page 46

one of these unions strike now the other unions help them out right

now. With money and assistance, everyway that they can/ You take

lot of these corporations they are dealing with the unions now whether

they like it or not. Because they know that the collective

bargaining and the law is there to protect the working man.I Give

that national labor relations act credit for xxx and Roosevelt

was the guy that got it in there. He, I remember that we xxx always

have a right to join the union but if a company found out that we

joined the union they got a right they can fire. But under this

law they cannot. There is case after case that I know that man

was placed back on his job and got paid for the time that he lost,

xxE: What do you think about having a Rockefeller and Ford as President

and Vice President now?

L: Well I tell you, of course this Rax boy this Rockefella here now

is not his grandfather. His 8 brother was the dirtiest, filthiest

o ld bastard that ever lived. Because . . .

Mrs: You don't put that on there .

K: No we won't.

L: Yeah (laugh) and the senior, John D. Sr., he was the type, well

his own grandsons he use to pay them 10¢ to kill a 100 flies.

Those days they didn't have the preparation to destroy flies

that the flies would come in there and ne would pay his grandsons

10¢ to pay a 100 flies.

Mrs: He was money hungry more , but . . .

R: Yeah

L: Moneyxxxxxx hungry, yeah, yeah.

(xxxx cross talk)

page 47

page 48

Mrs: But I don't think Nelson Rockefeller is . . .I think

L: But I odn't think that this guy is that kind of a guy. He understands

the philosophy and fundamentals of our system of government. You

have to deal with the people like human beings, rather than as

slaves.

E: But he had those people shot at Attica prison, (laugh) It was

pretty much like ludlow too.

Mrs: Well he was a xx bad boy in that respect. At that Attica prison

out there. It should have been handled . . .

L: xxxx Yeah, well, I think, I think he learned a x whole lot

since then, since that time.

Mrs: I think too that he was surrounded by people that a said

well this is the thing to do on that deal too. Here honey.

R: Can we go sit in here, because I don't xx want to make . . .

L: Are you getting ready to . . .

K: No, no, we have like two or three more questions, (cross talk)

L: Uh oh.

t: Your all tangled up.

Mrs: Honey he has two or three more questions.

L: OH;

Mrs: So you come over here.

t: Our whole lives are wires.

K: Wires everyplace. Ah, well why, we want to go into this black lung

thing. For our script now like I said because it is not all going

to be Ludlow. There is a couple of questions we wanted to ask

you concerning this black lung thing. Eric is working on trying

xxx to get that thing together. x

t: We want you to say something that you said before, but it's no

good on the tape. Alright? And so we would like you tell us

something like ah the xxx struggle in the old days the old min . .

when the miners faught in Ludlow ah they finally got the union

and they got decent wages but now these xx same old guys are trying

to get their black lung pensions from the government and they

are still fighting the struggle and they are still not getting

their pensions.

L: Well, that situation of the, there is a certain amount of unity

that had to get to the congressmen and the senators. You see,

these other struggles, economic struggles, that we faught for,

we faught for that through collective bargaining on behalf of

each other, we combined together to raise enough funds to do

certain things. To get that xxxxxxxxxx established, but when

it comes to black lung and a lot of these other necessities

of life that come up ah the only way xxx that we can do that

is through legislature who are understand why it xx is needed

for to get the black lung. Those that actually need the black

lung that conditions of the mining still is detrimental to a

certain point. Men would get the TB or involved in those

days when I worked in the mine in two or three years. Shot to

pieces. Now at least he goes along there, some will work all

xxxxx their life time and never show. The others that have

weakness of system or something that naturally they will get

it in about 5 or 6 or 7 years now that works in the mine. So

those conditions xxxx the only way that I can see that the

working people can correct them is throughx selecting the

people to represent them in the House of Congress in the

page 49

United States senate.

Mrs: Mike let me just say this. He wants to know why these old

xxxxx miners now who are retired, and a lot of them are not

getting their x black lung, it is because they have made

a ruling first you chose to be, you had to be ten years to

work at a certain time. Then its 15 years, you see that was

it. And the miners its on their, thats their law now or their

ruling you would have had to work for 15 years within a period

or time to get this. And the of course you go through this

test, this xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx breathalizer . . .

L: Weil . . .

Mrs. x xraying if they find if and then you get it. But the thing

xx that has been unfair about this there has been people that

we know that have come right into our house and was never in

a mine that have gotten it . You see . .

L: Yeah, thats one thing that . . .

Mrs: (cross talk)

older fellows are not getting it because now you see they will

say did you work l0 years. Now they have made it that you have

to work 15 years. Well there was strikes in between there was

this there was that. There was the other and there was no more

work. A lot of the old fellas are beaten and worn but can't

get it because xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx of the fact that

is the ruling xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx that the mine workers, that

comes through Miller and that bunch up there. And ah and some

of them and that's xx wnere these older fellers. Now because

the ones coming up now I think its going to run a little different.

page 50

L: Well now let me give them this here. Ah struggle that I took up

in fighting for the organized labor I couldn't get miners pension,to Miller,

You know what they told me. I wrote xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I wrote

to xxx this Terbovic. I met both xx of them and talk to them

of what I did. They know, records are back in Indianapolis or

Washington w here they have their headquarters what I did,

Not only work for- miners and drifted from here and all over

the United State and Canada, to build and xxxxxx help the UMW

the labor movement. When it came to get miners pension I couldn't

get it.

Mrs: Because he hadn't been in the coal xxxxxxx mines,

L: Yeah, there is a lot of fellas like that here that are not

getting it and should be getting it. The only pension I got

was the AFL CIO pension. x And I got that because xxxx I had

friends in there that I went to work after the mines when I was

through. In fact, I was elected, you notice in the records here

was elected vice president of the district 15 of the UMW 1914.

And I was still vice president in 1938. See, elected year after

year. Yet when it comes down if I didn't go to work for the

AFL CIo I would have been out completely all together.

MRS: But you see the thing is they said you were not in of course

its understandable in a way, but of course my salary was very poor

because when we got (cross talk) his salary was not what they

are today. I worked too, we both had to work.

L: After the CIO, after the CCC went out of business x and x x went

in the WWII. (laugh) My army went in with regular army to fight

the war. I didn't have any job. And I came into Denver here

we moved from Crai<j, wex were living in Craig, and came to Denver

page 51

here and got xxxxxxx located right down here about 2 blocks

we got x apartment house went in there to live there and I wentyou

downtown and I saw an old friend of mine. In fact xx went to

work for a telephone company was you?

Mrs: I was the chief operator of the Albany switchboard in fact.

I use to be a telephone operator. I applied for xxx PBX work, manager

and I knew the xxx of the Albany and I told him I was going back

to work and he said we are getting rid of our chief operator

come on in. She was quitting, so I took over working on the

Albany x switchboard for some time as a telephone operator.

And I was chief operator down there and he was travelling all

over oh we had a . . .on the record

L: While she was there she found out that a man was registered

at the hotel by the name of Adolph Girmer and Adolph xxxxx Girmer

worked with me for the UMW xx during the strike of 1913-14 right

here in Colorado. So she called him up.

Mrs; I called him up at his room and asked xxx him if he was the

Adolph Girmer who was with the strike and he said yes. I said

this is Mrs. Livoda and he said where in the hell is Mike,

(laugh) That's when they got back together and got, so I really

got you the job on CIO (laugh)

L: Yeah, and he was representing the CIO. The next day I went to meetcuz

him and I went to work. He put me to work. he know what I could

do and from there I build it up. And that's the later the CIO

and the AFL went together.

R: Were you in Denver at that time, that whole time that you were with

the CIO?

page 52

L: Well, they

Mrs: Yeah they were in Denver;

L: they went together nationally you know.

Mrs; Yeah we were there at the time.

L: So I was retired and placed on the CIO pension roll because

the CIO went in with the AFL and all of the men that worked

for CIO lost their jobs because the you know.

R: Girmer took a lot of those pictures. The Girmer collection.

Mrs: Girmer was quite a guy with a x kodac. He called Mike brother.

L: Oh yeah.

Mrs: _________and he was a German.

L: I'll show you his picture in here.

Mrs: That fella died at the age of, how old was he, he had every

tooth in his head when he was in his 80s and he had a full

set of beautiful hair. I've got a great big picture of him

honey, the one that he says to my pal. He told me that he didn't

have a brother or a sister nor father nor mother or anything.

And he married a women that didn't have either. And we all four

became very good friends.

R: Did he have children?

Mrs: No, never had any children.

L: No children.

R: So did all of his photographs go to the state historical society?

Mrs: His wife is still living.

R: His wife is?

Mrs; Yes she is still living.

R: In Dnever.

Mrs: No she lives in Rockford Illinois

page 53

L: No, I got them in here.

Mrs; And here birthday is the same day as Mikes. But she is not as

old as he. And she always xxx writes to my twins. And she has

been travelling considerable since . . . I don't.

R: What happened to all of his photographs, they all were donated

to the state . . .

Mrs: Well xxxxxxxx he had a complete library too.

L: There he is.

E: Oh yeah.

R: Of his own.

Mrs: Now he was the fella that came from Germany (cross talk)

L: That was taken right here in Denver when I was working for

him for CIO. See these guys are telephone men, and the

telephone of Western Union is the one that CIO organized you know.

That was a tough a outfit to organize, was AFL. You see these

are the fellows who were, this is the secretary of this guy, and

he was hired by the CIO to organize the west. He was a a man

of xxxxx western electric. xxxxxx See? And ah this is our

secretary and the rest of these guys were helpers. And this

guy was a steel worker, soldering. He xxx died on his desk

of a xxxx heart attack in Pueblo. He was a good man, a wonderful

fellow. Yeah

Mrs; But he was a wonderful, wonderful man Adolph was.

R: I certainly hope his photos don't get lost. Does his wife have

them or . . .

Mrs: Well ah they were donating his library to Cornell University.

I xxxxx think you know that old man that x Adolph use to visit

in New York at one time. And he said that his library, he had,

pagE 54

he had ah big house and up in his ______ _ room which was his

library. Clear to the ceiling and just all around and then he

had his desk in the center and there wasn't a place that didn't

have a book and they were all worth while books. And the university

one of the professors there which Adolph had met someone in New

York some German fellow and he got him acquainted with this fella

so this fella came to see him and asked if he would since he had

no family if he would donate this library to Cornell. Now I think

this is xxxx where it went. I'm going to ask Vivian in a letter

to her . . .

L: What the library?

Mrs: Yes . .

L: He had one of the best and finest libraries . . .

Mrs: You never saw anything like it , . .

L: I think they give it to Wisconsin University.

Mrs: Cornell University wasn't it Mike?

L: I don't know whether it was Cornell or Wisconsin.

Mrs; I'm xxx going to write to Vivian and I 'll get, and I'll also

get information as to what she's done with a lot of his xx pictures

that they are . . .

R: Because see I know xx xxxx at the state historical society

isn't it there is a collection, and x it says from the Girmer

collection.

Mrs: Adolph Girmer, he is the only one . , .

R: Sure but I have a feeling that things get lost and stolen there

and I would like, what we want to do is we are taking all of these

negatives and we are going to preserve and get all of this mining

history in one place . . .

Mrs: And have it where it will be yes. . . .

page56

Mrs: Well I will write to Vivian . , .

R: That's just one of our projects.

L: We haven't written to her for a long time.

Mrs: But I know (cross talk) that the library because she told me

that the library was to be given to them in memory of Adolph.

I xxx think Adloph made that agreement before he passed away,

L: You know this man he told me he said to look up in certain

library in Denver here to see if I could locate the book that

he xxxx want,

Mrs: You might tell them the history of xxxxxx that book. He had this

book, and when he leant a book out, he had a big record he said

leaned it to so and so on such and such a date, They were to return

it x he was not giving it to them. And this man borrowed this

book from x him and remember that is the book I want. So he never

never returned it, never wrote to him, never xxx heard from him,

So he said to Mike, he said Mike go to these second hand book stores

because its not the you know its not on the press anymore, See if

you can find this name, So Mike had this book and he went all

around and got in the bookstore and low and behold if he didn't

find his own book.

R: Really?

L: His name was on the book,

xxMRS: That he had loaned, and it had his name, And this fella had

xxxxxxxxxxxx gone and sold that book,

R: So you had to buy it back for him,

L: Yeah, I bought it back (laugh)

Mrs: So Mike bought it back. Because, xxxxxx xxxxxxx Adolph, every

town he would go to he would go through all these x old book stores

page 57

I tell you I've gone through bookstores with Adolph until I

could just. . .

(laugh) And when he'd come to town here he'd say come on Kate

we're going to all these bookstores. And we went I think we

went to every bookstore. But he'd x do that even before hisxxxxxx

book was taken because there was books that he wanted and he'd find

them. And he'd sit there and I can just see him yet, and he said

ohhhhh this is a good thing, do you remember Mike.

L: Yeah.

Mrs: And I was so short and he was so tall I'd be standing by him

and sometime my feet would be hurting and I'd say come on let's

hurry up Adolph and let's get out of here (laugh) He's a wonderful

manx. He died in 88.

L: Yeah. Wonderful man.

Mrs: And so well preserved. Gosh I'm telling you he had twice as much

hair as Mike has. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Not a tooth out of his head.

xxE: Mike's not doing bad.

R: Mikes got twice as much hair as I do. (laugh)

Mrs: x Well Mike's got quite a lot of hair yet, Mike's doing all right.

He still x drives, he took me x down town today.

L: Yeah she wanted to go down and spend some money so I took her down

there, (laugh)

Mrs: Now is there anything else you want to know about this? I think

that what they are going to have to do, and I think that if they

could ever get it to the mine workers, that they should take

into consideration these old worn out coal miners that didn't

have this many years here, there work was interrupted because

of lack of work and of strikes, so that they finally had to get into

page 58

some other industry. But they worked in the coal mine for

maybe 8, 10 years. And they are broken men now in the 80s way in

their 80s. Those people, I don't think they should go by this

xxx rule and regulation. It was 10 years, now they have fixed it

so it has to be 15 years. And you see that's what is keeping

this black lung . . .

R: (cross talk) We see 30 or 40 years and still can't get it though,

Mrs: That's it. Yes because they didn't work during a certain period of

time. Its' all wrong, because if you were under that ground

and you xxxxxxxx worked (cross talk) you accummulated this stuff

in your lungs then you should get it. But you see the states

retain part of that too. And ah . . .

R: They want the companies to pay it all,

Mrs: Yes.

R: xxx Mike what do you think is going to happen with the strip

mining and all of that? Do you think the strip mines will always

be UMW or do you think?????

L: Yeah.

Mrs: Well some of the mines have been xxx taken away from the United

Mine Workers.

L: xxx Well I'll tell you why. Those men xx will learn that long

run there most of them are machine operators, truck drivers,

the bull dozer operators, it's all mechanics. When they first

go in there they belong to the stationary engineers or some

of these crafts you see. Then when mine workers when its opened

up and the coal mining is beginning to get into the coal

they go in there and in a lot of places thex miners take them

right away, convince them, but some places where some of the unions

page 59

page 60

xxxx got the bills of goods sold to them and they won't go for

xx it, but in long run they'll find out that the mine workers

is a damn sight better organization than what they try to do

because unity, you got to have a unity to get anything. But

these, the craft, they are winding them off. Yeah.

Mrs: But I think the majority of the strip miners are with the

mine workers.

R: Sure, I think it's about 50 50 now.

Mrs: Is it?

R: They are having a xxx hard time, they are having a tough time

in Wyoming now.

L: I understand that there are several places in this area here

ah that may eventually it will come, but you know sometimes

some x of these people that do organizing they don't know how

to organize that's the trouble. I know that the present stuff

that they got, Miller, xxxxxxxx Terbovik, they got men on the

staff there that x couldn't get to first base in the days when

I first started out. Yeah.

R: How do you go about it, how do you go about organizing these guys

on strip mines or anything, deep mines,

L: x First you have to have a certain philosophy of the cause that

x you may to tell the men. What would he think if this was

eliminated and conditions were brought about so that everybody

would enjoy that change. And then the men will eventually begin

to soak in. And then I'm here for that purpose try to do something

and see if you people would get in amongst yourselves to see,

cuz all I am doing here is to try and do the job for you,

but you got to help me out. Pretty soon the guy will say yeah.

Mrs: See there were in the years too, there were so many of the

Slavish people, Italian people and so forth that were in the

mines and you had to have some of their own people to talk to them,

Because the others could not make them understand. If you are

one of them then you can get right in xxxxxx with them. You know

their customs and you know everything about them. Why I think

that brings you closer to them.

R: Somebody told me a story, and I don't know why_________, but in a

closed camp outside of Louisville, that ah there were a bunch

of Greeks then I think, who had been brought in by the company

inside a closed camp and ah the people, the strikers outside

were yelling we;re on strike, come out on strike, and the miners

in there x didn't know the words strike. Somebody told them

the greekxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx word for strike and all the greeks

x walked out. (laugh)

Mrs: The reason they didn't know that they were breaking the strike

because . . . . (cross talk) and there were a lot of these

other foreigner came in like that too. And ah they didnt'

know and they thought gee we're getting to come to America, they

are going to pay our fare, they are going to bring us x over

there, we've already got a job and a lot of them that found

out xxx that they were breaking the strikes and after they were

a littlexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx educated to the fact well they

apologized they said we were xx brought in and we didn't know

what we were doing. And you see thats the fact too. The Greeks

never were scabs, as we use to call them. I don't think they . . .

R: Off and x on, I think, you know, off and on, xxx and just like you

say, once people got educated as to what it was about . . .

page 61

Mrs: That's right.

B: I haven't ever heard anybody, one thing that all the miners,

is that the miners are not at all race conscious about where

people come from.

Mrs: No, no . . .

R: The miners seem to be . . .

Mrs: Now xxx a lot of things are, they try to keep them out of xxxx

this and out of that, but the miners (cross talk) they were all

just like one big family.

L: You know I xxxxx want to tell xxxxx you something, when I was

in the CCC, running the CCC, I had a xxxxxxfella, he was ah

Emil. He was an Italian.

Mrs: Who?

L: Huh?

Mrs: Emi1.

L: Yeah.

Mrs: Aren't you talking about the fella from Sweden, that use to make

your bolts and things.

L: No, no, not Italian, xxxxxxxx Scandanavian.

Scandanavian. And ah educated in the old country. And ah he use

to have sort of a sign that he make when a job is finished,

A project is finished. And ah I had an idea that the xxxxx forest

service had one day a certain jobs in a certain area. In the mountains

there they have posts set in there with an arm on it you know.

So we x started to do something like that on our job there,

the CCC we set up the post and arm and down below on that arm would

be the sign. xxx About who did the job see? Well, we had that

Emil fix it up and cut xxxxxxx jagged on the side to make it

look nice.

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page 63

Mrs: When you learn a trade in those countries you really are well

qualified.

L: And burned the letters in there and then come in there with

the, what you call this xxxxx xxxx white reel, genuine good stuff?

That you paint it and the reflection shows up. And we, I had

so much room in the center see when I use to make these signs

for the kids. I said lets put in the three Cs see? xxxx Big

three inch long you know in diameter, three Cs you know. And

ah it was not on the order, so, and the inspector use to come

from Washington. And of course the army and xxxx those people

use to get hell from the inspector. Oh xxxxxx gosh. I was

x x x x never afraid of those people because I tried to keep it up

to the xxxxxxxxxxxx regulation, We did the regulation.

And we had the inspectors on our side. Come in and inspect your

equipment and training of the boys and all of that stuff you know.

Tools and how you load them up on the trucks and getting them

off of the truck you know when they go to the job. And ah all But

of that stuff. the thing that this inspector come by there and

he turned around and the lights of his automobile reflected on that

sign see? So he waited until the next day come in there and said

ah we were down in a meeting in Grand Junction see? So he come

in there he said who is superintendent of DG, what the xxxx devil

was the name of it?

Mrs: I can't think of it.

L: DG 40 or 40 xxxxxxx something like that, I even forget the number

of it. And I said, I'm sure ready for the hell see? And the

other superintendents were sitting in there you know. They said

there x he is over there x he rushed over there he said let me shake

page 64

your hand. I still don't know what the heck he was talking about.

(chuckle) He said you are the first superintendent of the United

State that give credit due where credit is actually should be given.

Mrs: Because they put the three Cs.

L: I still don't know what. So he pulled out, in his satchel he pulls

out this picture he took. And he said this is it. He said we have

this xxxxxxxxxx organization spend tax payers money all over the

United States and he x said, theres never nobody that ever thought

he said to do this he said to give CCC credit that they did the

job. So, they all looked at me you know, and it was not on the

regulation no, no.

Mrs: And you know, of course I hate to say this.......

L: But I had the space on that sign and I just put it in.

Mrs: I know you boys know, the government will send a man out

agricultural and tell the farmer what to do and this

and somebody else this and that. And they are not qualified men.

I mean they got it but they are not. So this, this was a cute

story because some big government came out to a farm and says

to this farmer. Your trees, your fruit trees are not taken care

ofxxxxxxx right. He said that will never bear another apple.

He said young man h it sure won't it's a pear tree. (laugh)

And I xxx think this is just about the way some of these people

come out. And ah so ah, but I x knew the xxxxxxxxxxxx inefficiency

of them, they have it all in the books and have it all, but I think

you have to have xx some, and you boys are getting actual experience

because you are going to the mines and you're digging this right out.

Which I think is wonderful. I wish . . .

L: Well I'm xxxx sorry that I didn't that xxx these boys . . .

page 65

Mrs: She's the one, she teaches Russian and Spanish. They call it a

special teach back there in New xxxxxxx Orleans.

L: Education helps a whole lot.

Mrs: Education does,xxxxx and its good, but I think you have to have

because sometimes they come xxx and tell you, like my brother in law

was in butchering and this fella came out and he says ah, he told

this fella he finally got mad he said you don't know the hind end

of this cow from the front end of it. But you're telling me what

to do I could not do and come out. Thats true you see, what I am

getting at is you're experience has to go along with your . . .

R: Well, we see people working for the union who have never mined.

Mrs: You see, they don't have a good idea, well they can't have an

insight of whats going on.

R: And they can't have a feeling for what, yeah . . .

Mrs: No.

R: the miners are xxxxxxxxxxx experiencing so that they can help them,

Lot of them are lawyers . . .

Mrs: Well thats it.

R: We don't go around playing like we know it but this is the way

you learn it is to ask people explain to you . . .

Mrs:xxxx Yeah, the actual xxxxxxxxx happenings, you know of actual

happenings things that really did come out.

R: Well x let me ask one more, one last thing, and then we will get

our mess out of here, out of your house here. Ah, these people

the foreigners came to the United STates with expectations about

what good life in America would be. The miners, now lets go back

to the miners. From your experience with the miners how did they

look at the whole thing, the whole big picture from the struggle

page 66

throughx the 30s and now into their later years. What do people

think about it all, did they get what they wanted from America.

Or did they get what they wanted from the operators? What, do

you have some kind of overview of what it all means and

you know the big picture? Do you see what I mean?

L: You see what I kind of, this country is only 200 years old, and I

think x from the experience that I had and from xxxxxxx actual

experience that I know how the xxxxxxx economics of this nation

were developed. They developed by foreign born people. Mechanics

clear down to the common ordinary earth to build things up, And ah

of course this country here the capital was here and the people

were hired by the corporations to represent the foundation and

bringing the country up is build by the guy who came from over

there with the hard rocks. BEcause . . .

Mrs: Mike he wants to know if these people become happy xxxxxx because

they came over?

L: Well sure . . .

Mrs: They still want to go back.

L: No. . .

Mrs: The miners . . . .

L: Listen they can't go back because it is over populated back there.

Most of those, listen, most of those people that came over here

they got out of the country because there is no room over there.

I got a brother back in PA and he came after I came over here.

And the farm that you have there but you bring the kids on earth

they grew up and pretty soon they get married and it gets over

populated the people has got to get out. And some of those people

from Italy from all of the old x x x x x x x countries there, like myself,

page 67

when I came over here as a kid, I never expected to go back

I figured right there then, if the country amounts to anything

and its a good place to be, when I came over here I see people

how they live I enjoy they get along fine and I love it.

R: But then you had to go through a struggle.

L: Yeah that's right, and I went down to the bottom and I tried to

xxxxxxx adapt myself and adjust myself to the system of America.

I tried, I became naturalized raising family, got married and

that's the way a lot of other people and that's what built the

xxxxxxx country up.

Mrs; But I think the general rule, Mike won't you agree with me that

90% of the people that came over are thankful that they came to

this country and a lot of them as I know of them, Said I was

glad that I was able to raise our family in this country

the opportunities are better . . .

L: Oh sure, there is no question about it,

Mrs; One thing in some of those countries and especially in Italy I'm told

if a person is a professional man he thinks you almost should

tip your hat to him. And in fact we had a fella, a pharmacist

from there he said we are better than the rest of them, I said

xxxx'you're not xxx any better xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx in fact you're

not as good xxx because you don't think right. As the fella that

didn't have the opportunity for the education. They say we are in

a class of our own, and I said you are not in a class of your own

in this country. Now that's the one thing that I think so many of

them because they were rated as to dollars and cents as to

education as we all know, of xxxx course now that country over

there has gone more x or less xxxxxx like in a lot of respects.

page 68

But ah I think as a general rule that these people they knew

they struggled and they said they struggled but they said that they

didn't even have the xxxxxxxxxxxx opportunities over there to

at the time you know. Now you can come over here, Mike came over

here without any education to this country and has never gone to

school in this country. He x has done wonderful. You won't get

that xxxxx at that time you did not have the advantages over there.

Now my father was an educated man, he came over here, and ah but ah

but he not speaking the language of course. And had to build himself

up from there. But ah, its like he always said in those countries

you did not have the advantage, his part was from Germany and Austria,

but you didn't have the advantages. You had to either come

from a rich family or you didn't have the opportunity to work.

But I know in talking to people that have come over and have

struggled say well we had a hard time but our kids can go to college

our children can doxxxx this they can work xxxx their way through,

But we would have been over there you couldn't do it unless you had

the money to do it. In those days you had to have the money to do

these things because you could not do it. You couldn't work

your way through school, you couldn't do any of that. In fact

it was nothing x but the rich that had the education in years

gone by over there. And over here they came over poppers and a

lot of them are made great men.

R: What about the people, who mined who never became rich, but lived

a decent life now say in Trinidad or Walsenburg, who have been

around.

L: Well there are so many of those people.

R: Are they x happy with their lives.

L: They contented with what they are doing. They stayed with their

jobs and as long as they are treated well they continued xx living

like that.

Mrs: They are content, they all say we never would have gotten a pension

and lot of them have got little homes and gardens, x Yesssss.

R: We should go. Do you need to get your lunch?

Mrs: Not yet x GEorge but you can come in. You want to come in.

About a half an hour huh? Okay George.

R: We've been here too long.

xMrs: No you have not.

xL: Who was that?

Mrs: George honey. I use to hear my father talking, because he was quite

a learned person too, and he use to x say, now what over in that

country you can work and work and work and you are worn out and

that's it. NOw in this country, look at, look at so many of the

miners are getting thisx x x x $200 a month, plus they are getting

all of their medicine, they are getting their hospitalizing, they

are getting their doctors and they are getting it for the whole

family. Well you don't get those opportunities.

L: The coal miner is better off today xxxx than he has ever been in

his life. Because he gets $200x from the miners pension and his

social security is between $300 and $350. What the heck he never

made that much money when he first x started out.

Mrs: And none of it is taxable.

L: See?

Mrs: You See? And now we have a friend in Aguilar a Mr. ____________ poor dearhe

xxx has worked hard all of his life he gets black lung, miners pension,

social security. And he says I'm a rich man now.

L: Yeah.

page 69

page 70

Mrs: I stayxxx I stay home and I open my checks, (chuckle) And

that, now thats , and they will tell you, a lot of them will tell

you, a lot xx of them will say are you going back, not me

I'm American, I've got my papers, I'm American, they don't want

to go back. Because they know that that xx opportunity isn't

awaiting some of them. This country will have to say is one of

the finest.

L: The only ones that I have found out that want to go back

want to make their stake here, they want to go over there to visit.

But they don't stay they come right back, after they make a visit

month or two. Yeah (laugh)

R: In building a country like, who x is more xxxxxx important,

can you say, the Rockefellers or the min . . the working

people, do you think that they shared it or do you think . . .

L: xxx Well the, the, the real philosophy is this if you got money

invested in something and the money creates the jobs. Lets see

I was reading in the papers here this morning where some outfit

close up here and . . .

Mrs: 1400 . .

L: 14000 jobs done away with.

Mrs: No but he means, do you think that Rockefeller was more instrumental

in building up this country or the workers. As Rockefeller . . .

L: No Rockefellow, listen, xxxxxxxxxxx Rockefellow was interested

in making profit.

Mrs; I know but who was more instrumental in building the country?

L: Yeah, but the money developed the industry, you have to develop

and naturally money creates the jobs. The jobs create more jobs

and more money, xxx that's the way things go.

Mrs: Yeah but I would say that the worker was more instrumental in building

page 71

up the country, because Rockefeller had the money.

L: I always . . .

Mrs: He didn't put it to good xxxxx useage.

L: I always contend that money is no good without being invested

and give somebody job.

Mrs: xxxxxx Yeah, but then I'd say, wouldn't you say that the worker

was, because if you didn't have the farmer, if you didn't

have the coal miner, if you didn't have the . . .

L: In our system of government you got to have both.

Mrs: Well sure you have to have both, but which x is the more xxxxx

important?

L: No, I'm not talking about riches, I mean money and the people

that have to earn their living from the investment x of the money

in the industry and thing like that.

Mrs: But what I am trying to get over to you, xxxxx you're not letting

yourself in. (chuckle)

L: Yeah, yeah. The result is even if working man, there is a lot

of men that don't know how to live ah I don't mind hav ing fun,

I had a lot of fun in my life time but I have seen xxxxx guys

that will have a chance to save 2 or 3 thousand and xxx they go

to xx Las Vegas and x blow it all there. Now thats not the right

way. You put in a good useful thing of saving $3000 and that

$3000 at the rate of interest that you got in three or four years

you'll xxxxxx find out how much you will have. In five years

at 7% you will double your money. At 7%, you will double your

money. They don't think about that they go to Las Vegas and throw

it away.

Mrs: Well some people like that kind of life.

L: Huh? (laugh)

But what I am talking about (cross talk) those who are wise

especially now (cross talk) working people we use to talk

about the hundreds a year, well heck the common labor in the

building industry gets $6 an hour. Now that guy gets 4 or 5 hundred

dollars a month. Ah I mean the ah even a $1000 a month or more

now if he hasn't got too big a family sometime bigger families

will take all that money to live on, he should be saving some money.

Mrs: (cross talk)

L: Because that money will help him out later on in life when he needs

it, he may get sick or something may happen. It's always nice

even though you get the pension, the government will help you

one way or the other. x But if you've got a few dollars saved

up it sure helps to beat hell.

xXR: (laugh) Some people can't ever get that much wages in the first

place.

L: So I'm giving you the pointers that I have been through, and I know

just what it means.

R: You're telling me. You're making me feel like I should go save some

money, (laugh)

Mrs: No the only thing is of course as you grow older, you got all of

that experience behind you. Well you feel that if I'd of done this

it would have been better and you can pass it on to your children

we only have the one daughter xxxxx however and ah but ah and she

has three children. But the idea is if you can save just a xxxxx

x x x x tiny bit as you go along then and just forget about it

and put it in at 7 1/2 it grows before you know it. Of course

money makes money there is no question about that.

page 72

page 73

But my kids have always been quite a ah person xxxxxxxx to think

well now, it doesn't matter how much we make we are going to put

xxxxxxxxxxxx a few dollars away. Well we did xxxx that, but

remember I worked too (laugh)

R: You got to get those few dollars first.

L: Between the two of us we xx put a few xxxxxxxxx thousand dollars

aside and you put that at a good rate of interest, the money

begins to xxxxx grow . . . .

R: Uh huh .

end of 130-B

Mrs: He loved that kindx of work and he's been general manager

for many years at a big hotel.

R: This is your son in law?

Mrs: Our son in law yes. He xxxxx said, I said once, Mike said

well you fellows are making a $1000 a month and he said well I'm

not going to work for no $1000. He's making $2000 a month, now

he has opportunity. $2000 a month, 7 room suite, 4 bathrooms, the

rent, their food and every day sends out a suit to have it pressed,

the xxxxx valle come up. And then he goes out and he xxx is suppose

to entertain big fellas and he signs the check, maybe the bill

is $100 or $200. Now he's had better opportunity but because

we drilled it into our daughter's xxx head that the way that they

have lived that they have an opportunity to x save. And see the

whole family is there . . .

L; Well she's working now.

Mrs: And she is working now, she didn't work before. She's the manager of

the Gloria Marshall.

R: Where are they?

Mrs: New Orleans.

L: New Orleans.

Mrs: But he always says that she doesn't have to work she said well the

reason that I work is the golfing, the playing the cards, and doingmaid

nothing and you have a xxxx , you have a full time xxxx maid, you

have, you don't even make a bed. I said this is not the life.

You should do something, (x x x x chuckle) xxx And she has been doing

this. Now herx baby, the one that's, she is going to be 15 thisone is 31, one is 32

month. They had these two, xxxxxxxx they are fourteen months apart.

And sixteen years later they had this little girl. Of course she is

Livoda 130-C

in school and ah a private girl's school back in New xxx Orleans.

But she is making $600 a month guarantee and there is months

that she makes 8 and 900 dollars a month. And I said you work . .

R: There is a second income.

Mrs: And I said you put that away though kid, (laugh) And they listen

to us. But . . . .

R: They do?

Mrs: Yeah, they are very good about things like that. They have this,

he . . . .now you see, he just hit on that that was an opportunity

that you don't even get today . . . .

R: We're working from the bottom up. (cross talk)

Mrs: They want college graduates for the, as your hotel managers. Well

xxxx he is 62 now, he's not a kid any more. But he, but he can work

on as along as he is able, to work.

LIVODA ROOM xxx TONE:

R: Now who were these men? That she was . . , Let me put . . .

Mrs: Coal miners from xxxxx Illinois.

L: Illinois.

Mrs: And she, because it was her wishes of course to be around them.

R: Some of those are more interesting than others. The Walsen.

L: Oh yeah, x x

r baby granddaughter.

R: I saw that.

Mrs: Did you see that? She is quite a little dancer, they perform

this thing at the state in the superbowl you know, (x x x x cross talk)

R: Say it again. What?

Mrs: Say it to them again.

page 75

L; This is the camp, when I was on the job for about 30 days. And

I road up x with the guys that run the store and they got in the

saloon there and he told the saloon keeper that I was going to

Primero that I was organizing miners and I left there for the

camp up there in 15 minutes after I was in the camp there was 3 men

that picked me up to take me to jail.

R: They knew you were coming. That is the station at Primero.

L: Oh yeah.

Mrs: Now they got a lovely school and they bus the xxxx students from

all around up in there now.

xxR: Uh huh.

Mrs: Where did you get all of these pictures?

R: These are CF&I xxx pic tures, these three are Berwin.

L: Oh let's see the Berwin. Oh yeah.

R: Recognize them all?

L: Yeah.

R: xxxxxxxxxxxx Here's a camp house up at Berwin.

L: I haven't been there for years I wonder if there x is anything there.

R: No there is just foundations mostly.

L: x x x x x x Berwin mine.

(cross talk)

page 76

MRS: Her first school.

R: In Berwin?

Mrs: No her first school was in Aguilar, then she went to other schools,

R: Really?

E: What is that?

R: I don't know it doesn't say . See if anybody knows anybody.

E: x Know anybody here?

RXE: See all these picture have no dates, no identification.

Mrs: That's too bad that they didn't have something on the back.

You know we went down to Trinidad about a year ago, well we've

been down since then, we took a ride up to Raton and my husband

said, oh there is xx where this fella lives let's stop and see

him, and my xxxxxxx brother in law said he's dead Mike. Went

a little further, oh let's go see this fella, he said he's dead

too. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Mike said my god, everybody is dead but you

Mike. ___________(laugh}_

And that's true there is very true there is very few of the men left,

R: Well it's hard to find people who remember.

Mrs: Yes, 89. But he has a good memory of the years gone by ofxxxx

what happened, he really does.

R: There's pictures of, what is the one I handed you.

E: Robinson?

R: The Robinson. Were you at the Robinson mine.

Mrs: Rapson isn;t in there.

R: Rapson,

L: Rapson is the place that I worked.

Mrs: Yeah, that's Rapson.

R: Did they have a mine, We don't understand, they have a bunch of

pictures of the Robinson mine.

L: Robinson is in Walsenburg.

R: Was it all black people that worked that mine.

L: Yeah a lot of them.

R: Were is there a picture?

E: This guy.

R: There is a picture of him in there.

page 77

R: Willard White.

L: Willard White, Robinson. You see.

Mrs: Now this fella must have been, he was colored.

R: Yeah.

L: They brought in a lot of black people to those, during the strike

from the south.

R: Did they join the union then?

L: Later on they did, yeah. But not during the strike no. Now you

take detroit all of those black people that came into detroit

--before the general motors imports blacks when the automobile

workers strike organized the industry.

R: Uh huh.

L: Yeah

Mrs: And thats what xxxxxxxxxxx happened. That's Berwin honey.

L: Yeah, yeah, look at these.

Mrs: We use to ride up around there alot.

page xx 78

L: Yeah. Berwin Colorado.

R: Do you know any of those people?

Mrs: Would you like to hand it back to this boy . . .

R: That's okay, we're . . . .

L: Wait, wait CF & I company office.

Mrs: Do you happen to know any of those?

R: Are those thugs you think xxxxxxxxx or are they just

miners or who are they?

Mrs: Oh I think these are miners.

R: Miners?

Mrs: Yeah, these look more like miners.

L: I think so yeah.

Mrs: Yeah these, they all got their vests on. Now these

are miners theyxxxxxxxxx aren't the other things.

L: Colorado supply division.

Mrs: This is in ah Farr Colorado.

L: Yeah, Farr is a cameran.

Mrs: Cameron, Farr is Cameron huh?

R: Yeah.

L: The post office.

R: Did they name it after Jeff Farr?

Mrs: The post office.

L: They named this camp after him.

R: They did?

L: Yeah. This is the camp that I walked in, when they took

R me up in front of Farr. And they told me that I am going

to have to xxxxxxxx stay out, He's the king of the county.

R: Uh huh.

page 79

L: And ah, I'm not to be permitted to do my dirty work

there while he was the . . .

R: Which camp was that then?

L: That was the Farr, the Cameron mine really. That's what

it is. xxxxxxx It's a CF & I mine.

R: These are some. These two are both of Segundo, You were

down in their right?

MrsL: Oh Yeah.

R: This is Segundo, and this is the Tabasco Tipple when it burned.

Mrs, Segundo, and Primero and all of those place.

R: That looks x like a pretty ritsy company store.

Mrs: They had that one taken especially there. And those

women I don;t know where they came from. They don't look

like miners wives. They look x like the company wives, (laugh)

The miners wives never dressed like this. And had these

xxxxxxx hats on. Now they put all this up for display

and even papa back of the counter there has got himself

all fixed up. No that not (laugh)

E: Not your run of the mill company,

Mrs: No, no, no, no.

E: Well.

L: This is quit a kit. That's valdez and Segundo.

R: x x x x These are some of the IWW during the 27 strike.

L: Ohhhhh.

Mrs: Oh, you ought to know the IWW strike,

I hope we are not getting these to where they are xxxx

going to be wrong for you.

L: Now, I was not connected with the United Mine Workers

page 80

this was during this wobbly strike. They use to arrest

alot of those fellas and they were good xxxxxxxx friends of

mine you know. The fellas that wobblies, that went into

the wobblies they needed some help there and the mine workers

kind of let them down. So when wobbly and so the sheriff

down there in Trinidad they use, the old rangers you see

that we had to do what you call I don't know they changed

the name of them now. They still got a this Colorado, some

kind of an agency that we use to call them rangers then.

So the sheriff said to me, he said Mike you know most of

xxxx these guys, he said that these guys bring into jail,

I say yeah. He said if you sign up for them he said

x x soon the rangers will get out here I'll turn them loose.

So I said alright. He said if I need them that if xxx there

xx is a court ever held, he said If I need them will you see

that they are brought in? I said sure. So he turned them

loose. So the rangers started to bringing them in

one guy said to him, xxxxxxxxx no use to bring them

in he said just as soon as they bring them in Mike Livoda

go up to the sheriff's office sign up for them and get them

out of jail. (laugh)

R: Is that what you did?

Mrs: Yes.

R: Get them out of xxx jail?

Mrs: They were old coal miners.

R: What xxxx happened? How did that 27 strike end? What came of

that?

L: They got a $1 wage increase out of that strike.

page 81

R: But the IWW didn't . . .

L: That's right. IWW they got a $1 wage increase.

R: Why did the miners x end up with UMW then?

L: Well the UMWA at that time they didn't have anybody to get

in there to do the job. xxxxxxx. That's all.

Mrs: They didn't have any money.

L: I couldn't do it because I was out of a job myself.

R: Rouss.

Mrs: Rouss, I had a xxx brother that was born there. There's five

of us children and we were born in five different counties,xxxxx

(laugh)

R: This is Rouss, did you go to school there ever?

Mrs: No, no, I.

R: This is during the IWW strike,

Mrs: No I went to school . . .

L: Yeah, yeah.

Mrs: in Trinidad.

L: Oh they the rangers they were really raising the hell.

R: When, at the, when?

L: With the IWW.

R: Oh.

Mrs: Yeah, there they are there. They use to call them the rangers,

R: There is more of them there too.

Mrs: Look at the classy outfits they have.

R: (laugh) Oh yeah, they had those. , .

L: Yeah, yeah.

Mrs: Yeah, they really did.

R: Well any how I just wanted to show you a couple of these.

page 82

Mrs: My lands you boys have really inherited a lot of, now these

all belong to you folks.

R: Well some of them go back to xx CF & I and some of them a are

ours. Well what we did, the miners didn't have the money to do

the photographsx of a lot of this stuff. But who are they,

who was the photographers Eric, Dole?

E: Dole.

R: A photographer xxxxx named Dole took a lot of pictures and

photographers ah a few photographers tookx pictures from

the unions point of view, but all the newspapers and everything

took photos from the companys point of view. Like after the

miners would burn Forbes Mine. But that was already after they

had burned out the women at Ludlow.

Mrs: They didn't show their side of it. Well of course the paperscoal company

were all, you know you might say xxxxxxxxxxxx kind of people

Owned by them mostly too. Money was the one that talked then

because the coal miners didn't have any.

R: So any how xxx so many of these photos that we have we have

gone to Rocky Mountain Fuel to get, to xx CF S I.

Mrs: Do they let you . . .

R: Well . . .

L: I'll help you boys carry some of this stuff out.

R: I was going to move my car to the back. Is there a place to do that?

Mrs: Yes, yes. You can go right in this alley. He's going to move his

car to the back.

R: I'll just put my car right here.

Mrs: That's just fine xxxx really. We can have it right there.

R: I'll be around. Can we borrow these and we will give them back to

you?

page 83

Mrs: Well, that xx will be alright.

R: Would you rather not?

Mrs: No, listen, in fact you can have them because I have some.

R: Well we don't want to keep them.

L: What is that?

R: We're going to shoot pictures from them.

Mrs: They are going to shoot pictures of those.

L: Oh yeah (laugh) yeah.

R: Okay well I'll meet you around back.

Mrs: Let them have them now honey.

L: Yeah, yeah.

Mrs: It's too bad that they don't have the names on everything.

The dates on everything. Just come to the back and we'll open

it for you.

E: Well nobody knew that anybody was going to care I suppose.

I don't know.

Mrs: Well those things just happen and at that time they were just

so ingrossed in what was, all that was going x on that they

just didn't give the history part of it a thought, you know.

And now you younger people coming up you're xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

interested in the history of xxxxxxxx your state and of

the United STates and it's making quite a difference. And then

too in years gone by as you well know too, there were not the

college students that didn't have near the students that you have

today because ah well it's nothing but, I remember in Trinidad

when people went away to college and my sister, my father . . .

page 84

end of tape 130-C

Mrs: . . . . and so he wasn't rich, but my father made provisions.

He said you must go to college, the ones that will take advantage

in fact you must go. And my sister was a school teacher and so forth.

But . . .

E; Well was he involved in mining when you lived in Marshall?

xxx Mrs: Yes.

E: He was a Kiaiax coal miner?

Mrs: Yes. He came out here and he spoke seven different languages

but they didn't spoke the American. They came out here on their

honey moon. My father came from a pretty wealthy family.

E: From where?

Mrs: His father was born in Berlin Germany and then they went into

Tyro Austria and that's where they lived there. And ah, anyway

they came out here on a honeymoon, when they got married and

they never went back. Well he settled in Pennsylvania xxxxxxx

in the German colony and they spoke nothing but German and my

mother and father both spoke German and then ah he ah ah ah

he went, he wanted to come out here. And he came out here

well he wasn't able to get work because of the language. (knock)

I thought maybe that was my husband.

R: We're ready to start lugging,

Mrs: So he started in the coal mining for a while and he worked.

And then he got interested in the people and then a lot of

his kind of people came out. That is from Penn, they thought

that Colorado was the nicest state and then we five children

there is five of us and we x were all born here in Colorado.

And I was born in Marshall. And then my father use to be the

one that use to go and open up the mines. But he was, he was a

xxxx Livoda 130-D

quite a union man.

E: Fire boss?were

Mrs: No, he, they'd ah, now they xxx starting a new mine in xxxx Tercio

and they would send a group of men who they thought would, could

handle the other men to tell them now that we are to do this,

but he was never a compnay man. But he was an intelligent person.

They xx wanted someone that was a little outstanding and could

speak the language to the xxxxxx different ones. And he did that.

And he got so involved in unions that they ah wanted him to quite

doing that and he wouldn't do it so he quit x the mines all together

because he was involved with unions. And ah so he went on into

Trinidad, (laugh) We were there. But I have a very good idea

of all the coal mining camps and everything and then Trinidad

was surrounded of course by . . . you had and then I went

to the telephone office xxx there. I didn't want to go away to

school.

E: Well what was it like when Mike was out organizing and dragging

his Winchester all over the mountains and you were home?

Mrs: Well now you see, we weren't married in 19 . . . . w e were married

in 1917.

E: Oh after.

Mrs: But then I was x with him when he was sent to Canada, we were

sent back east, now when we were back east, ah, ah, he was going

to be there for 7 months well our little daughter was 14 months

old then and we didn't want to be separately that long so we went

back there and took an apartment. But and at the steel mills

he was telling me about, he had a regular satchel, and some times

he would come home with as much a $3000 so we would put it under our

page 86

bedx at night so we could take it to the bank the next xx morning

and but if it would have been today I think that he would have

gotten whacked on the head because it wasn't quite so bad in those

days as it is today. Because you see our daughter is 57 years old.

That's been many years ago. But ah, but ah there was no Sunday's

off, no nothing off, when Mike was working. Then they sent him

to Canada and we didn't get to go to Canada but he came down

2 or 3 times. But then, I will say that the organizers really

worked xxx differently then than they do now. They were all on

the job and there was really nothing, he would be out till midnight.

And the next day he was up and xx it was just a come and go all

the time. All the time. And ah the miners would come to the

house and some poor dears didn't have anything, but he was getting

a very small salary himself at that time. The biggest salary

Mike ever got from them was xxx $5000 a year. So you know that

wasn't . . .

E: Well where were you in 1913?

Mrs: In Trinidadx .

E: In Trinidad.

Mrs: I was on the x switch board I was a telephone operator.were driven in

E: Do you remember when the women xxxxxxxx down the street.

Were you there that day.

Mrs: xOh yes indeed. In fact . . . (cross talk) they wouldn't let xxx we

xxxxxxxxx telephone operators go home during that time, because

the militia had the streets you know. And they kept xx us down

town and we stayed in a rooming house over night. We slept with

our clothes on. And that's when Mother Jones was on the corner

and she put her hands over the guns and said you go ahead and shoot

page 87

you SOBs if you want to kill some of our women and children.

No but I was there on the switch board all the time. And I

worked x with the telephone office which was just right off,

of Main and Commercial Street.

E: That x switch board was screaming.

Mrs: Oh, it was screaming and then when they killed this Belcher

on the corner there well of course all of our lights x xxxx went

on then. And then Denver called, and Trinidad was calling back and xx

forth and that's when, oh I was as involved, we were as involved

in the strike as the strikers themselves. In fact my father

donated ah guns to the cause. His personal guns and so forth.

And we, but yes that's whyxxx when I xx speak when you children

xxxxxxx sometimes xxxx hear me interrupt it's because I was there

and the first call I got from Mike was when this fella this ah,

I was on long distance when Belcher was killed why ah and he was

very excited and very nervous. And he said well for goodness sake

get on the ball and get this call in and I said oh I said

that's that organizer Mike xxxxxxx Livoda, I said if it wasn't

a for the union I wouldn't get the call through for him at all.

I told one of the operators there and of course we were all

sympathetic for the miners because we lived among them and ah

I said I wouldn't xxxxxxxx even get and so I got on the phone

and I said is this Mike Livoda and he said yes and I said xxxx

well xxx here's your call.xxxx I never will forget. (laugh)

That was the first conversation I ever had with him.

But ah, no we were there and of course mining camps all around

us and we had connections with xxxxxx everything. And the

telephone operators weren't suppose to listen but we listened to an

page 88

awful lot of conversations.

E: I'll bet.

Mrs: From the Denver coming in what the miners, what the detectives

were saying and what the unions were saying and we gave the

unions preference xxx because most of these people working

there at one time or the other had been miners daughters or some-

thing.

E: Well you were working people yourselves.

Mrs: And we were all working people. Yes, I worked on the switch board.

E: Well on the day, now xxx as I understand it Mother Jones came down

to Trinidad, and she was what, sort of kidnapped off the train

or something and put in San Rafeal Hospital?

Mrs: Yes, uh huh.

E: Could you tell me about that?

Mrs: Well ah you see they knew that she was quite an influencial person

with the miners you know. She absolutely was. And ah, they got,

I guess they got word of her coming and so then they took her

off and put her in the xxx hospital, then she went to this hotel

which at that time was called the Toltec???? hotel. And

Mother Jones always liked a beer and she didn't care too much

for women. She wanted to protect the women and children but she

didn't care too much for women. And she was a woman among men

and she just faught their battles you know. And I know, when x she

xxxxx would get loose (cross talk) she would really make the

speeches. And there is a little mountain out of Trinidad, that

is called Mother Jones Hill. And she made speech from that

because around there she was you know they watched her pretty

close, but she made a speech, and my sister who is a school teacher,

page 87

of course we were young at that time, she was sitting on Mother Jones

lap. I don't know what ever became of that picture I was often

wondered about it. (cross talk) Yeah, but they call that

Mother Jones Hill, it's just a little knoll, and the miners all

came and sit around there and listen to her.

L: A little work don't xx hurt her, she needs to get limbered up.

E: So then what happened? The militia, the women marched right?

Mrs: Yes the women marched, and then the militia was on horse back

and practically ah ran over you if you didn't get out of the way.

And that's when Mother Jones, they had their machine guns set

up and she just put her hand right over it. And she called

them dirty xx names and told them to go ahead and shoot if they

will. xx But they were cowards and so forth. But ah, then they

xxxxxx miners got up on top of the buildings too you know. And it

was just a really ah they could xx have declared it a war right

in Trinidad. Then you see at one, another time when we were on

the switch xxx board at the time, when Lipetz was killed. It

was on a Saturday night. And he was xxxx killed right in a crowd

you might say.

E: Well didn't, I thought Belcher killed him right?

Mrs: It was one of the two that killed him.

E: They challenged him to draw just like an old western.

Mrs: No, I don't think there was any challenge, they just shot him, in cold blood.

R: They called it a gun fight.

Mrs: But there was no gun fight there.

R: Could we get this?

Mrs: I don't think there was any gun fight, it was just, cuz anything

that came through in this little community naturally, and we,

page 88

page 89

the Trinidad had all of the, it was the center the heart of the

coal xxxx mining camps. See we have all of the Delagua, and

all of the that's what, we kept in touch with all of this stuff

you see. And the minute that this came through x of course

we were always set for that and xxxxx lots of times we would

have to call all of the operators back into work because we would

have more of a skeleton shift at night you see.

E: Uh huh.

Mrs: And they would call them back in and I know when they were having

these troubles they made us work several hours a day and much

later. And I xx was on duty when he was killed. And when

that Belcher was having his troubles and then when they were killed

I was on duty then. And that's the time, remember when you called

me up over the,xxxxxxxxxxx when you called up over the long distance,

you wanted to get the office in Denver. Do you remember that?

And you said, I think you cursed too, get on the ball there, you

said I got to get this call through right now, and I said alright

Mrx . Livoda, x I was being nice to him, and I turned to the

operator next to me and I said that's that Mike Livoda he thinks

he is so x smart, I said I wouldn't even give it to him xxx only

I xx know that he's a union man (laugh). Then we ah, then his

call went through of course, he was calling headquarters

to tell them what had xxxxxxx happened down there. And ah . . .

E: What were the details, as I understand from Beshoar's book,

Chase was leading the xxxxxxx militia and the women were marching

down the street, what, he fell off of his horse or something

and then ordered his people to ride them down.

Mrs: I never recalled ever of Chase falling off of his horse, never have.

E: Beshoar reports it, but we don't know whether . . .

Mrs; But I xxxx have never heard that, never heard, that's the first

time that I have ever heard that he fell off of his horse, But

ah, they were trying to keep the parade from going along, but they

went anyway. And the women and children did march.

E: And the got through to San xxxxxx Rafael?

Mrs: And ah, no I don't xxxxx think they got up clear as far as

San Rafael Hospital but they walked down on the streets and x

everything. They wanted, of course they were getting the sympathy

of everybody, which they did, and which all the business men

and everything, well naturally they were, a lot of these business

men had been even previous miners you know. BEcause that's

all, the really x the biggest industry down there was coal mining.

We had oh I don't know how many coal miners around. See we had

Cokedale, Berwin, and Morleys, Segundo, xxxx Primero, Starkville,

Sopris, and just all of those camps. It's pathetic to go xxx

through now and see all of those places, you know, because

they use to have, xxxxxxx especially in Morley they had a big

x YMCA, we would all go up there to dances and have a good time

you know, because it was a nice camp and so forth, But then after

that why things were . , .

E: Yeah, we went down those canyons . , .

MRS: Its just it's all, it's like the ruins of Rome doesn't it.

E: Cattle grazing on it.

Mrs: Yeah, yeah, its' too xxx bad,

R: What does it make you think when you see that? I was wondering

that?

Mrs: Well you know, it's kind of sad, because we have so many wonderful

page 90

things that went on up there. You see they had baseball teams

at these different camps. And you'd go out, and I was going

with a young man that had a surrey (laugh) and we use to ride

out to these. Oh that was classy you know. And ah so several

and we'd go and we had the best time. The miners all got along

and no race barrier or nationality. It was a just one big group

that's all. And everybody just seemed to get along and we had

a real good time. xxx Then they had their fourth of July picnics.

Their Fourth of July Parades, their Fourth of July things and it

was, it was really a lot of very pleasan t memories down there.

Then of course when all of this started tearing loose like it did

it made a different picture and then when they tore that all down

so many many of the young people had to leave after they finished

high school. There was nothing for them down there, that's why

all of the younger people left there. But it was, it was really

a joy at that time to be in the mine camps because there was

always something doing. There was picnics, they use to havea one

of these x big wagons with, I tell you, I want to tell them this,

I can remember when I was a girl and this was up in one of the

camps, they use to have, the would drive, they would ride xxx down

to someones farm down there, and they had one of these big trucks.

You know without the sides on them and all, what would you call

one of those kind of trucks.

E: Flat bed truck.

Mrs: Flat bed yeah. And they would put a couple of kegs of beer on

x there, and the women would make, oh they would fry chicken

they would make cakes, they would have everything. All x of them

had pretty big families. A coal miner wasn't a coal miner unless

he had at least 4 or 5 xxxx children. And there was five of us.

page 91

And I remember they would go down there and they would set up a

little platform at this man's x farm and they would get out there

and they would all dance and they would sing. And there was noone

getting drunk, but I can see that big keg of beer. They would

turn that big spicket on and they would be singing xx in different

nationalities and having the best xxxxxxx times. And really

those times were good times. I mean they were happy times. And

another thing the families were all together. The mother and

dad went and the kids all went along. They had this Sunday picnic

you know. And in the summer time they all looked forward to that.

The the Fourth of July my goodness, we'd have on a pretty dress

you know. New dress for the Fourth. Everybody went to ah something

and had a good time. That's something that really, the children

of today don't realize. A marvelous thing that xxxx really was in

those days.

E: We found a whole set of very interesting pictures of ball games

and also pictures . . .

Mrs: They use to, they use to . . .

E: and also pictures of xx gardens. Do the x camps award a prize?

Mrs: Yes they did, they use to have, they all had, they were, they were

I think they raised every type vegetable there was and this person

would give xxxxxxxxxxx vegetables to this one and this one the

otherx . I've got a lot of this, and I've got xxx a lot of that.

And it was just wonderful. And they ate wellxxxxxxx though.

They really ate well. And ah they, thex miners wives were all

bake their own bread.

page 92

end tape 130-D

xxxxxx Livoda 130-E

E: . . . this one speech. Just this one paragraph.

R: If you don't mind you know. You could just see if you agree.

You could just say that xxxxxxx Mother jones said.

Mrs: Ohhhh, uh huh.

R: It says Mother Jones said,

Mrs: If you are too cowardly to fight for your x rights, there are

enough women in this country to come and beat the hell out of you.

It sounds just like her. If it is slavery or strike, I say

xxxx strike until the last one of xx you drops into the grave.

We are going to stay here in southern Colorado until the banner

of industrial freedom xxxxxxx floats over every coal mine. We are

going to stand together and never surrender. That's like her.

R: Her's one other when she said, just before the women were run

down in Trinidad. Could you read that paragraph?

Mrs: I think I was telling him about that. Mother Jones puts her hands

on her hips and made the statements of her own for the newsboy,

newspaper boys. Tell General Chase that Mother Jones is going

to Trinidad in a day or two and that he had better play his

strongest cards. The militia's guns against her she said

defiantly he had better go back to his mother and get a nursing

bottle. He'll be better off if they are making war on an 88 82

year old xxxxx woman in a state where women vote.

R: She was a . . .

Mrs: But you know she put her hand right xxx over the machine gun

when they, in Trinidad there. I was telling him the reason

that I had xxxxxxxx so much insight on xxx this was I was

a telephone operator at that times. And we were in on everything.

Because it comes through there, and we were not suppose to listen

but I never will forget Katheryn Goodwich was on longxxxxxxx

distance with me, we use to call it long distance, now they call

it the toll line, and ah I would say, take the calls I'm going

to listen and xxxx they she would say you take it and I'm going

to listen. We would open our little x switches and we had the

news before it got in the paper, because we would listen.

R: Do you xx remember any of those things?

Mrs: Well, I can just remember that when Mike made this call,

he said all hell has broken x open down here, they have killed

this man you know. And so forth. xxxxxxx See I was on duty

when xxxxx this Belcher was killed wasn't it? Belk or Belcher

was xxxxxxxxxx killed?

E: Belcher.

Mrs: Belcher yeah Belcher. I was on duty then, they didn't let

us go home at all. The telephone operators had to sleep

in a hotel. We slept in a rooming house above the Hasman Hotel.

Or Hasman Drugstore because they wanted us to be sure to get

back because thex militia was taking over you see, in town.

And that's what happened. xxxxxxxxxx And by the way I can tell

this story now. The man Zancanelli, who did the killing, ah

I was, as I told you I was going with this boy that had the

surrey. He was the saloon keeper. And ah so any way, so Belcher

was killed with his gun. This xxxxxxx boyfriends gun of mine.

R: Wow.

Mrs: But the way it was he leant the gun to someone, of course this

was all made up they were going to do it anyway, anyhow, it was

his gun that killed him.

R: That killed Belcher.

page 94

page 95

Mrs: Uh huh, and of course I got that over the telephone too.

(laugh) I rang him up and I said what the world is the matter?

R: were you working in April when Tikas called to Lawson

to tell him that there was a fight at Ludlow or anything like that?

Mrs: I can't remember of ever hearing anything from Tikas xx, Tikas

we use to call him, at the time. But ah all the inforamtion

would come and of course all the calls would be put through xxxxxxx Trinidad

the switchboard.

R: And you had phones at the tents, at the headquarters of the tents?

E: Were you on duty the night or the day the tent colonies were burnt?

Mrs: I was on duty xxxx the night that Belcher was killed and I was

on duty the night that Lip . . what was the man's name that was

killed on the street?

R: Lipkin?

Mrs: Lipkin uh huh, was killed. And of course this thing going on

at Ludlow we were on duty off and on all the time because

that was a x prolonged thing.

R: What kind of things were coming over the phone lines?

Mrs: Well the organizers would try to get through but the ah, the ah

the ah, preference, they had their, the ah Chase and all of that

bunch had better equipment, better setups and everything xxxxxxxx

than the others did. And of course they would make reports

of what was going on. And another thing that I think, this

boy that burned the tents, he was the ah, what was his last name

Mike? I went to school with him,

L: Who?

Mrs: The boy that set fire to the tents , the first one that came

xxxxx down with the torches for the xxxx tents?

L: It was the national guards.

Mrs: Yes, the national guard, but what was his name?

L: I don't know.

Mrs: Oh yeah I should know it because I went to xxx school with him.

And ah, but he . . .

E: Nobody knows that name.

Mrs: Now I'll get that name because I know that it wasn't Chitworth

it was, don't you remember xx his father was such a company

manx .

L: __________

Mrs: No, no, but the man himself that set fire to the tents and he

boasted about it later. John, I'll remember that name and give

it to you because I went to school with him.

E: That would be x x x x x x x x important because it's not in any of

the records.

Mrs; xxxxxxxx Because he boasted about it later. You see they took

those xxxxxxx touches and went down, and he was one of them

that did that.

L: ____________

Mrs: Chitsworth, Mike you remember the Chitsworth? Yeah, Chitsworth.

That was the boss.

L: That was his son.

Mrs: That was his xxx son yes. Chitsworth was one of the xxxxxxxxxxx

boys, well he was the young man that set, had the torches for

the xxxx tents.

R: He bragged about it?

Mrs: Yes.

R: Even after he knew women were killed?

page 96

Mrs: Well I don't know, but when this was done he said well he

was one of them that was honored to go down there.

B: Well Linderfelt, they had sent most of the national guard

back and there were only 200 people there according to what

I have been hearing I think you told me, is the day before

Greek Easter on the 19th ah Hamrock was there and Linderfelt

brought his company in to camp with them that night. Do you

think Ludlow was planned?

L: I think so,

R: Do you think it was plan? x Was there anything on the phone

lines about that?

L: I think they planned it because see (cross xxxxxx talk) see

our people were playing xxxxxxxxx baseball see the baseball

ground was right cross road from the tent colony (cross talk)

(Cross talk) Mrs: That was our big sport there and there were some real good

ball players in that town. In fact one of the fellas that

I think xx went to one of the leagues.

E: It was a Greek coal miner and he got to be ah major league

xxxxxxxx baseball player.

Mrs: Is that right?

E: Yep.

Mrs: Because they had some good talent for those fellas you know.

E: Did you hear anything before the Ludlow, before it was fired

before the tent colony . . .

Mrs: You mean making preparations for this? The only thing, the news that

we got is that our men are coming in and of course we didn't

know for what purpose he said there is a group coming from here

a group coming xxxxxx from there and of course they were coming

in. That's to say that anything transpiring over the phone with

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page 98

that other than that I don't recall anything like that. But that

was why x when I interrupted Mike xxxx once and a while

because of course Mike has a wonderful xxxxxxxxxxxxmemory

but there is some things that he kind of goes around the

ball park before he gets to the center of it and ah but ah

ah ah I knew all these things because we were right on the ground

floor all the time you know and the things do, the very x xxxx

first thing that happens in any place comes over the telephone.

Don't you think?

E: Yes.

Mrs: And that was the reason that we knew so much about this because

it did come over our lines. And thats __________was calling

Denver very frantically, and of course the others were calling

their headquarters were all in Denver and . . .

(cross talk) E:

continues, skip some tape, pick up again when Mike gets the mic on to read something

R: Could you just read the names and just say what it is ahead

of time.

L: Oh yeah, let me have those glasses.

Mrs; I've got your case here but you don't have your glasses.

R: They are in the other room.

Mrs: You got them.

L: Thank you. Oh you want these names read?

R: Yeah.

Mrs: And what they were?

R: Just read the names with a little pause in between.

L: Those xxxxxxxxx killed in the Colorado xxxxx strike and buried

by Hall McMahon Undertaking Company.

Jerald Lippia, Trinidad Colorado, Union xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

organizer killed on the street of Trinidad by George Belcher

Baldwin Felts Detective, August 16, 1913.

Nick McPall, at Ludlow he was a farmer, cattleman there

killed at Ludlow Colorado, an operators gunmen xxxxxxxx attacked

the tent colony October 9, 1913.

John Verhognic, Forbes Colorado, x Killed when Baldwin Felts

Detectives in armored automobile death mobile, death special

shot up Forbes xxxxxx Colony, October 17, 1913.

Chris Kopich, I was there when this guy was killed.

Right up Walsenburg up the 7th Street. Killed on the 7th street

when gunmen and deputy sheriff shot up town October 24, 1913.

Gus Morris, Walsenburg, died at the Oxford Hotel from

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx rheumatism of heart due to the illegal incarceration

of the militia in the cold filthy jail of Worfano, January 5, 1914.

And here is a bunch that was killed at Ludlow.

Eugene Chavis, Hastings, March 14, 1914.

Joe Patrucci, Ludlow, April 20, 1914 age 4 years of age.

x LucyPetrucci, Ludlow, April 20, 1914 age 3

Frank Petrucci, Ludlow, April 20, 1914 age 6

Rudolph Valdez, Ludlow, April xxx 20, 1914, age 9

and Mary Valdez, Ludlow, April 20, 1914, age 7 years

Cullala Valdez, Ludlow, April 20, 1914 age 8

Patricia Valdez, Ludlow, April 20, 1914

x Frank Synder, Ludlow, April 20, 1914, age

99page

John Partalucki, I know poor old John, Ludlow, April 20, 1914

Frank Rabino, Ludlow, April 20, 1914

James Filler, Ludlow, he was secretary of the local union,

April 20, 1914

Charles Costa, I know him real well, Ludlow, April 20, 1914

and ah Analfria Costa, Ludlow, April 20, 1914, age 6

Patalina Costa, Ludlow, April 20, 1914

Lucy Costa, xxxxxxx April 20, 1914 age 4

ah Cloriva Petrogon, Ludlow, April 20, 1914, age 4

Rodero Petrogon, Ludlow, April 20, 1914, age 6

and ah Rosaria Petrogon, age 16

Primo Arissi, Ludlow, April 20, 1914 age 18

Nick Tommick, Aguilar, I know this guy and I know the

day he was killed, Aguilar, April 20, 1914

Louis Tikas, poor Louie, Ludlow, April 20, 1914

Nick Lupaccio, Aguilar, April 20, 1914

and Steve Slovaka, xxxx Forbes, 19 . . . 19, April 28, 1914

Frank Angello, Walsenburg, killed on horse back near

Walsenburg, the sheriff drove strikers from town into

hills and held them there until militia arrived and

Angello was killed April 20, 1914

Mike Linzeni, Walsenburg

George Back, Walsenburg, killed on the streets of Walsenburg

when gunmen and the militia turned the xxxxxxxx machine

gun from the Walsen mine down the street of town, April 28,

1914

small talk about Petrucci photo, identified as Petrucci family

page 100

end of tape 130 - E

R: . . . . I can't get over it, I was telling Mike outside,

the more we get into it, the people that we talk to are

such genuine good people and they have had hard lives but they

aren't bitter.

Mrs: No.

R: They got hope still. They are good xxxxx people.

Mrs: The thing that I would like for you to get out of this

is for the younger people to know that they paved the way for

them, and they took chances on their lives, and they xxxx had

very poor living x but with it all they lived a happy life.

I mean they got together and they had wonderful times, and

sometimes we would xxxxx argue that we didn't have this or that

and my gosh we were xxx washing on wash boards and all and

still xxxxxx xxxxxxxx there were no complaints from the miners

wives. The poor dears, I said they were either pregnant xx or

just had a little baby, or there was just so much of that

but you know they were never complaining. One woman would

help the other. I can remember my mother oh this woman was going

to have a babyx she would rush over there that night, with the

doctor you know, they all had their babied at home there was no

xxxxxx place to take them to the xxx hospital. And it was just

really, but they just gave of themselves. They just gave of

themselves . . . .

end of tape 130-F

Livoda 130-F