Public Hearing Pursuant : to House Resolution 243 - PA ...

COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SUB-COMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

In the mat te r of: :

Public Hearing Pursuant :

to House Resolution 243 : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Pages 1 through 196 Room 2K56

Forbes Quadrangle Building University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Wednesday, August 27, 1986 Met, pursuant to notice, at 9:30 a.m.

BEFORE: RONALD R. COWELL, Chairman

Commonwealth Reporting Company, Inc. 700 Lisburn Road

Camp Hill, Pennsylvania 17011

Camp Hill Philadelphia (717) 7*1-7150 (215) 7J2-I6S7

WITNESSES TESTIMONY Jack E. Freeman 4 Mindy Bishop 4

Philip K. Wion 78 Dennis Brutus 78 Barbara Sizemore 78

Jack Kraft il32

Boyd Purier 1132 Carolyn Franklin 156

Alice Carter 176

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P R O C E E D I N G S , CHAIRMAN COWELL: We will call to order this , hearing. It is being conducted by the House Sub-Committee

on Higher Education. This is the third in a series of four hearings

that this Committee is conducting pursuant to House Resolution 243.

, House Resolution 243 instructed this Committee to

f assess the success of efforts to promote racial integration and nondiscrimination at those colleges and universities in Pennsylvania which receive direct institutional appropriations from the General Assembly.

At the outset, I would like to thank officials here at the University of Pittsburgh for their kind hospitality in helping to arrange this hearing and certainly thank them for allowing us to conduct the hearing on the campus.

We always have that kind of cooperation. I guess we come to expect it. Sometimes we take it for granted. I don't want to overlook it.

We certainly appreciate the help that enables our hearings and our visits to be much more successful than would otherwise be possible.

We have a series of witnesses today. We expect to conclude sometime around 3:00 this afternoon. There will

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be a lunch break somewhere around noon, although, we will make sure we complete the morning agenda before we break.

Our first scheduled witness this morning is Dr. Jack Freeman, the Executive Vice President of the University of Pittsburgh.

Jack? Whereupon,

JACK E. FREEMAN and1 "WINEY BISHOP

having been called, testified as follows:

DIRECT TESTIMONY DR. FREEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am

Jack Freeman the Executive Vice President of the University of Pittsburgh and I am accompanied today by Dr. Mindy Bishopc{-w<5rd, inaudible)., who is Assistant to the President and Director of our Affirmative Action Program.

We want to welcome you here to your university and to your building, all of which is made possible by the generosity of the citizens of Pennsylvania and the General Assembly,

We want to commend the General Assembly for its concern about the efforts to increase educational employment opportunities for racial minorities in higher education and we are grateful for the opportunity today to appear before your Committee to provide testimony concerning the University of Pittsburgh's efforts reaching back now almost two decades

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to promote racial! integration and nondiscrimination.

I will be speaking this morning from notes, rather than from a prepared text. But we have'presented to the Committee a set of statistical tables concerning the university's achievements over the past six years with respect to enrollment of black students and employment of black faculty and staff.

I shall refer to those charts a little later in my testimony. To place our current efforts in a historical context, let me review briefly where we have come from.

In 1967 when Dr. Wesley Posvar (phonetic) was named Chancelor of the University of Pittsburgh, this was essentially a white institution.

Fewer than two percent of its student body and less than one percent of its faculty at that time were black. Such black employees that were employed, were mostly in nonprofessional wage jobs.

There were no special programs to change that picture and there had been apparently little motivation to develop those kinds of programs.

Dr. Posvar regarded that situation as unacceptable and shortly after taking office he began a series of efforts that has continued to today to create a fully integrated institution of higher education.

Formal minority student recruitment programs were


initially—initiated shortly after his arrival in 1967. The first of these called, The Developmental Scholars Program and the Triam (phonetic) Program, provided funding for scholarships and special support for academically underprepared black students who did not qualify for admission to the university under its normal criteria.

In his first year Dr. Posvar also charged all deans and directors with the responsibility to take aggressive action to insure that university's employee selection process for both faculty and staff provided increased opportunities for black and other minority members.

The following year, Dr. Posvar imposed a construction moratorium at the university in support of other activities here in Pittsburgh to facilitate the region's efforts to open up craft union membership to black and other minority group members.

In the same year the university began to work with its own craft unions to open their ranks also to black membership.

That year, the university established the Office of Urban and Community Services, which was designed to provide a link between the human resources of the university and the local community surrounding it to aid in solving urban, social and economic problems and to improve relations in the university and its urban neighbors.


1 In 1969 the University of Pittsburgh 'developed

2 its first academic program in. black studies which in 1970

3 became a department in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, one

4 of the first of its kind in the country.

5 Between 1-967 and 197-0, more than 300/black

6 ( undergraduate students had entered the university -"through

7 the Triam and. Developmental Scholars Programs, students who-

8 otherwise would have been barred from Pitt .under traditional

9 criteria.

10 As a result of these and other special .efforts,

11 by 1970.> .approximately. thirteen percent of the entering 12 freshman class were minorities'. 13 In 1971 the Triam and Developmental Scholars 14 Programs were refined and consolidated into the University 15 Community Education Program or UCEP as it is referred to, 16 which still continues to be a primary support program for 17 academically disadvantaged black students at the University

18 of Pittsburgh who would not qualify normally for admission 19 under regular criteria. 20 The university's first affirmative action plan w 21 developed -and submitted to the Federal Government in 1970, 22 one of the first 'in higher education in the nation.

23 These efforts to improve employment opportunitie 24 for racial minorities began to show results by 1973, That

25 year, approximately twenty- percent of all classified staff

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members were black and by 1974 the University of Pittsburgh had more black faculty members, almost six percent of its total, than almost any other predominently white institution in the country.

By the late 1970's, all schools within the university had developed special student related affirmative programs for both graduate and undergraduate programs, leading it that year to a total black student participation of just over eight percent in the university's main campus.

University's early efforts in affirmative action programming were marked by willingness to test a variety of strategies, some of which proved to be more successful than others.

These efforts included not only vigorous recruitment nationally of black faculty and professional staff, but also grow your own faculty and professional staff projects whereby black graduate and professional students were supported while completing their degrees at Pitt and then employed by the university, recognizing the limited availability of well-qualified professional and faculty members who were black.

However, as early as 1975, our experiences demonstrated that a key element in affirmative action success was development and retention related programs, since early successes in recruitment were erroded by a later career and


academic development problems.

While we enroll a great many black students who would not otherwise have come to Pitt, our record of retention and successful completion of degrees was disappointing.

After a decade of effort in this area, the university recognized its responsibility was much greater than merely providing access or opportunity and began to change its programs to better address the needs of black students who were academically prepared.

The late 1970's became, therefore, a period of transition. This university's experience paralleled that of other predominently white institutions.

An initial surge in the enrollment of black students and employment of black faculty and staff was followed by decreasing black participation in the university.

Pitt's commitment to affirmative action goals remained unchanged, however, and new programs designed to enhance retention at all levels were developed.

Recruitment efforts now focus on identifying students and employees with strong potential for success. An emphasis was placed on developing stronger academic support

: programs and allocating substantial funds for black student i aid. l Such efforts did stop, but did not completely ■t reverse the errosion of black student and employee participation

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within the University of Pittsburgh.

Let me review with you the results of the university's affirmative action over the past six years and I will refer in this segment of my testimony to the tables that are before you.

At the beginning of the 1980's black student enrollment had stabilized around*.the'Jsixppeiicent mark overall as shown in Table 1.

It is currently six and a half percent and has remained relatively stable for the six percentV," except for a dip in 1984.

As shown in Table 3, black undergraduate participation is currently at its highest point in six years, 7.5 percent of total undergraduate enrollments, also after reaching a lower point in 1984.

While we are by no means satisfied with the undergraduate enrollment picture, our programs for identifying, metriculating and retaining black undergraduates has been reasonably successful, we believe.

Black graduate student participation in the university, however, continues to be a matter of serious concern, as noted in Table 2.

The errosion of black graduate students appears to be linked to reductions in Federal student aid for graduate students through changes in research priorities,

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accompanied by increased national and regional competition for qualified black graduate students.

Increased emphasis on the applied sciences and technology, including engineering and computer science and mathematics, also has limited opportunities for many black students who are often less well-prepared in these areas.

Competition for well-prepared, highly motivated black students in science,engineering, business, law, mathematics, has become incredibly intense over the last five years.

Since joining with sister Commonwealth institutions in 198 3, in the State's joint desegregation efforts, the university has begun some new cooperative initiatives with Pennsylvania's traditionally black colleges, Lincoln and Cheyney Universities/ in areas such as information sciences, engineering and- computer assisted learning.

These are designed both to improve the quality of preparation of those students in these fields and to improve opportunities for the graduates to enter graduate professional programs at Pitt.

Recognizing developmental needs of many black students, efforts are also underway to develop cooperative programs, especially in the sciences and mathematics with this region's high schools, where we believe much of the effort needs to be placed in the future.

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New summer developmental programs have been initiated entering programs in areas such as medicine, public health and nursing.

Many of these are offered jointly with the highly successful Pitt engineering impact program which is in its fourteenth year of operation.

Even at a time of limited resources, the university continues to provide strong support for its disadvantaged student programs.

Between 1981 and 1985, over eight and a half million dollars has been devoted to financial aid for black undergraduates, and almost two and a half million dollars in university hard moneys have been allocated to the UCEP program which is our primary entry vehicle for academically disadvantaged students♦

While it is difficult to define precisely the funds that have been devoted to minority programs for graduate and professional students, we estimate that it is almost $2 million a year.

At the same time, since the graduating rate of black students from the Commonwealth's high schools has not increased markedly, the rate of freshman participation on all of the university's campuses has been uneven.

While the university's main campus has exceeded its totals for undergradute black student participation, as


shown on Tables 4, 5 and 6, the success of the regional campuses in some graduate programs, such as business, law, engineering and dental medicine have been disappointing.

These are shown in Tables 7 through 10. The School of Medicine is a bright point. It has made major efforts to attract outstanding black students with considerable success, as shown in Table 11.

In respect to our efforts to recruit and to retain black faculty and staff, our efforts to do this have intensified, but these two have reflected the same trends which we discussed in relation to students, increased competition for highly trained faculty, limited faculty turnover and stabilization of enrollments, combine to make it difficult to expand significantly the number of black faculty.

We have done better and are increasing our efforts in the area of black staff, however. Today black faculty comprise four percent of the total full-time and tenured faculty as shown in Tables 12 and 13.

Black full-time staff constitute fourteen percent of total employees. At the professional and executive staff levels, black employees now comprise 7.8 percent and eleven percent respectively in those categories.

That is shown on Table 15. University policy continues to require positive action to identify and seek out qualified minority candidates for all openings, both at staff


and faculty levels.

We require clear evidence prior to appointment of faculty and professional staff that efforts have been made to attract and consider black candidates.

Where evidence is lacking, the search is expanded to insure that those concerns are met. The process is monitored by the Office of Affirmative Action reporting to the President and by senior administrative leadership in the Office of Human Resources.

The university has established also a university-wide affirmative action committee which recommends policy and participates in monitoring university practices.

That committee reports directly to the President. There also are separate affirmative action committees for faculty, staff and student personnel reporting to the Provost and to the Executive Vice President who recommend policies and monitor actions in their respective areas.

Representatives of these committees constitute the University Affirmative Action Committee. President Posvar has made it clear that each school and department is responsible for complying with both the letter and the spirit of the University Affirmative Action Program.

Progress in these areas is a major item of inspection at our annual internal budget reviews.

The university also has an active program to


increase contracting activity with minority owned businesses in the areas of procurement of goods and services and construction.

These efforts have been reasonably successful, we believe. The University of Pittsburgh remains committed to a strong unversity-wide effort to increase both the enrollment of black students, their success while they are here and increase in the number of faculty and staff who are black.

But our efforts can be increased and improved by efforts by the Commonwealth. We recommend that the Committee give consideration to expanding and enhancing the following programs.

First, we would like to see the initiation and support efforts to upgrade the quality or urban schools in the Commonwealth, by providing stronger support for academic programs, counseling and tutoring of black students beginning in the primary grades.

The drop out rate among black students in urban school systems is a State and national disgrace. For example, in Philadelphia schools, a recent study shows close to fifty percent of black students who enter the first grade drop out before they complete high school.

Secondly, we would like to encourage innovative programs for black high school students, perhaps by funding summer academic internships, particularly in the sciences,


mathematics and related technology at Commonwealth universities and colleges, so as to prepare students for increasingly demanding college curriculum in those fields and to expose them to the collegeate environment.

Third, we would like to see a continuation and facilitation and funding for the development of innovative relations with the predominently black colleges, Lincoln and Cheyney.

This should include increased funding to upgrade academic programs and laboratories in those institutions as they are required and funding for the public research universities to broaden opportunities in their graduate programs and professional fields for the graduates of those predominently black institutions.

We already are working on that, but funding is always and will remain a problem.

Finally, we would hope that the Commonwealth would provide additional resources for academic support programs and financial aid in all institutions of higher education, including Pitt, which is essential to black student success throughout the Commonwealth.

University of Pittsburgh remains strongly committed 1 to strengthen the opportunities for black students, faculty and ' staff and will continue its efforts to promote racial ' integration and nondiscrimination in all of its programs.


Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would be very happy to respond to any questions.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Thank you, Jack. First of all, let me introduce my colleagues who

are here at this point, starting at the end of the table, Representative John Davies, Representative Bill Telek, Representative Jeff Coy and Representative Chaka Fattah.

Are there questions? John, Representative Davies.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: On the suggestion on the intern programs, have you had any success with those programs here at the university?

Does that reflect or does that serve as a guideline for others?

DR. FREEMAN: We have had some success in those, particularly in engineering, in the field of public health to some extent, and the area of dental medicine.

Would you care to comment more specifically on the results, Mindy?

DR. BISHOP: We began our first internships at the university in the late sixties, early seventies on an experimental basis-in natural sciences, one by one, where we could take this out of departmental budgets.

They are some of the most successful programs we know of for developing strong scholars and strong professionals.


We also have found that we do develop people who remain in the

region, who provide these professional skills to the region.

We, however, have had diminishing funds in many

areas, so that now we are concentrating on areas like

medicine, public health, chemistry, et cetera.

'< We would like to expand this, but we don't have

the funds available to do this. These internships are good

; both for transition from high school to college and for

i sophmores and juniors in college who really show potential

i for strong graduate study.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: Can you give me an idea

of the cost per area of—

DR. BISHOP: Indeed, yes. One summer

internship at rock bottom prices, which includes housing

the student, feeding the student, providing tutors for the

student, providing teachers for the student, if we costed

it out on a per student basis, would probably run somewhere

around $3,000.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Other questions?

' REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Mr. Chairman?

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Chaka.

' REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Thank you.

Dr. Freeman, can you tell the Committee about the

program at the medical school. The numbers are significantly

different in terms of the success there. COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY t717) 761-7150

I would like to understand what is going on there or what perhaps is not going on in terms of some of the other graduate programs.

DR. FREEMAN: I am going to ask Mindy Bishop who is more familiar with the details of that program to explain what is happening there.

DR. BISHOP: I would be happy, Representative, to tell you what I can about that program. This is one of the programs where we use summer internships.

The medical school has had high school students there on summer projects, known as summer project students. These students are primarily students who live in the area and who therefore commute, do not live on campus.

This has mushroomed into a summer program for some college students who they are encouraging to go on to medical careers and has been very successful that way.

It also has made strong contact with various schools both in the Commonwealth and around the nation. So it does a strong recruiting job through the year by the internship program partially and by hard work.

They also run a tutoring program and a support program for the students in the medical school during the early years.

DR. FREEMAN: My impression also is that the efforts of the School of Medicine have been very serious


and they have been widely regarded as being serious, around the country, by black practicing physicians and others in the black community, both in Pittsburgh and in Philadelphia and elsewhere in the country.

They have made very, very serious efforts to attract black student applicants, which is the big serious problem in, not only, medicine, but in the sciences, simply motivating black students to see that as a positive opportunity for them.

I believe that our people have—they have traveled to the major southern, predominantly black undergraduate institutions,

They have established a number of relationships with those schools in the south that do tend to turn out very well-qualified students in the sciences.

It is those kinds of, simply consistent hardworking efforts to try to attract black students that I think reflects the relative success of that school with respect to the enrollment of blacks.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: How does—,

DR. BISHOP: The—oh, I am sorry, Representative. REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: How does that';then relate

to the lack of success in the school of business and in the engineering school, in particular?

DR. BISHOP: May I respond to that?


DR. FREEMAN: Sure,

DR. BISHOP: May • I build on this just a little bit

in responding to that?

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Please. DR. BISHOP: Part of the—the Medical School is a

perfect example of part of our problem here. Several years ago, west of Harrisburg, only one black student in the Commonwealth took the {word inaudible) examination.

You cannot be admitted to any medical school in the country without having at least taken the (word inaudible) examination.

We have serious problems of this kind. Some of our graduate schools were not in as early on the learning game, the experience game and the failure game of what happens when you don't work with students to encourage them to do the preparatory work.

I feel that some of our graduate programs just are not as well equipped experiencewise to address the real needs of students within the Commonwealth for developmental experiences and support.

DR. FREEMAN: Let me also add to that. I think there are some financial issues there. Our graduate school of business is a twelve month program.

A student must generate during that period of time three complete terms of tuition and the tuition in the


graduate school of business, particularly for out of state students, is extremely high.

It has been extremely difficult for the graduate school of business to generate sufficient financial aid to be attractive to black students who are in very, very high demand.

It is a highly competitive school, probably one of the strongest in the nation. Schools like Harvard and Stanford and Columbia and that are seeking out the best black students in the nation, are providing them essentially with full fare scholarships.

We simply do not have the resources to do that. I think that, both the fact that most programs are spread out over two years rather than one year, and the relatively high cost, coupled with the lack of financial aid I think has been a major impediment to the school of business in recruiting black students.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: That same competition, however, carries over in terms of medical school; doesn't it?

DR. BISHOP: No. We have a special fund in medicine where at least in loan moneys we can make packages that run over $20,000 a year for students.

We can't do that in business. REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: That is what I am trying to

get at here. Why is the university's commitment so clear and

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evident in terms of the school of medicine and not replicated when we look at the numbers here, at eight students in the engineering school out of 442 and that has been running pretty concurrent for the last two years, that the numbers are available and a drastic decline over the last five years.

DR. FREEMAN: Let me say that I think that each of the schools present a somewhat different picture. The medical school is fully competitive nationally with respect to the kind; of student financial aid packages that we are able to provide for black students.

I think that is one thing. It also has worked very, very hard. It has gone nationally to try to find those students.

In the field of business, there is first of all, as I understand it, and I have talked to the dean of the school of business about this, they have tried very, very har^.'

in the recruitment effort to bring black students here. There is a lower level of interest, apparently,

nationally, among black students entering business schools. i I have talked to the issue of the student financial aid problem which is a serious one and they simply are not

: competitive with the good business schools, particularly in ! the private sector, that are able to provide very, very attractive and very generous packages to students.

i There may be other factors here as well. Our


business school tends to be a highly quantified business program.

That means that you have to have a very strong background to succeed in that program and to enter in mathematics.

That has made it difficult because what we have found in all of the sciences is that black students tend to not to take those tougher courses in high school and in college, so that the number of students that qualify for admission at the graduate level in business seem to be small.

Now, that is not to excuse the lack of performance in that area. I think we are all deeply concerned about the problam in engineering and in business and in some of the other programs as well.

But I do think that one has to recognize that 1 there are realistic problems there both in terms of competition for the better students and for the kind of

i financial aid that you must generate in order to get those 1 students to come. 1 DR. BISHOP: We should add on the engineering ^ issue that we are one of the most successful in the country ! in developing black engineers, perhaps too successful at the ! undergraduate level. l When we do get a black student who wants to go to > graduate school in engineering, we can give them a full ride


plus and we have several industries who help us out in this

respect.

But most of our black engineering graduates with

one degree can enter the market somewhere between thirty and

$40,000 a year.

We have difficulty retaining them for graduate

study.

DR. FREEMAN: I might point out that the Chart

No. 8 which refers to a graduate program in engineering. The

undergraduate program in engineering is very much more

attractive.

We generate a lot on (word inaudible) and

successfully graduate a great many black engineering students.

DR. BISHOP: We are one of the primary places

which trains blacks.

DR. FREEMAN: But the problem is that—

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Let me just see if I

understand. There is a university sponsored fund that helps

assist the medical school and you feel as though the medical

school is competitive.

DR. BISHOP: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: However, there is not the

same effort being provided at this point, to the other

graduate school programs and that is part of the reason why—

DR. FREEMAN: That is part of the problem. That is


not the only problem, but that certainly is a problem.

DR. BISHOP: Well, you have to be precise. They vary from school to school.

DR. FREEMAN: Yes.

DR. BISHOP: These funds are raised primarily through the alumni. If the alumni giving is very large in a school and is earmarked for student support, then that school has a large amount of money to use for student support.

The medical school is one such school. If the dental school could attract more black students, they also could give them the necessary support.

Their problem is the ability to attract, rather than the ability to support. The school—the graduate school of business, whatever its merit, does not have that kind of alumni set aside pool for student support at this time.

DR. FREEMAN: One other thing I think I would like to point out in engineering. If you look up on Table 8, you will note that out of a total enrollment last year of 838 students, only 442 or half of them were American white students, only eight were black, where are the rest?

The fact is that in our graduate programs in engineering nationally, the predominent enrollment in those programs are foreign students, mainly because it is very, very difficult to get either white or black undergraduate students out of engineering to enter graduate school because


they can immediately enter the job market and make a good

deal more money as their entry job as most of their professors

make.

So that encouraging students to enter graduate

programs in engineering is very, very difficult for both black

and white students.

DR. BISHOP: Your graduate school of business is

also heavily nonnational.

DR. FREEMAN: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Let me continue, Mr.

Chairman.

You talked extensively, when you talked about

black enrollment and recruitment of students of academically

disadvantages.

How many of the black students who are admitted

to the university, are admitted as regular metriculating

students,versus academically disadvantaged?

DR. FREEMAN: Would you like to answer that?

DR. BISHOP: Well, on the graduate level, of

course, students are regular admits.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: No, undergraduate.

DR. BISHIP: So l e t ' s ge t r i d of t h a t . On the

undergradua te l e v e l , I would say every year out of 350

a d m i t s , approximately—on an ave rage , now we a re t a l k i n g an

average ac ro s s a- periodrof years;— approximate ly 75 of t h e s e


students are regular admits.

Of those 75, some will be scholars. We do have Chancelor scholars, Provost scholars. In fact every year we have been building that so that about ten percent of our merit scholars are black.

That figure is not at all where we would like it to be. We have a great many more students we work very hard to attract.

In fact, we have recruiters who concentrate on the academically able. But there again, we are competing very heavily with the eastern privates.

We are competing heavily with Haverford. We are competing with Princeton. We are competing with Brown. Many of these students make those choices.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: You talked, Dr. Freeman, about the need for the State to do more in terms of their urban school, high school in K through 12.

Does the university have an on-going programs with local high schools, predominantly black or minority hich schools here in Pittsburgh.

DR. FREEMAN: The University of Pittsburgh has a strong and growing relationship with the public school system in Pittsburgh.

I can't tell you the precise dimensions of that. Do you know more about that?


I am not intimately familiar with that activity, but I do know that that is an on-going activity and one which has been greatly strengthened in the last couple of years with the new dean in the school of engineering—education.

DR. BISHOP: Education. Two years ago we started a partnership with the public schools. That is still in relatively infant stages. But we are running some special tutoring programs there/ some special teaching programs in the classroom with our professors going in, our students going in.

We are doing particular work with the new teaching center at Cheming (phonetic) High School, trying to initiate some programs there because we are so nearby.

There are a variety of other programs going on around the city. Small, for the most part.

DR. FREEMAN: Again, my impression is that, as in all these matters, funding is a serious limitation. My impression is that the school districts need to be able to devote more funding into those areas of strengthening science and mathematics programs, particularly in the public schools.

I think that they have given a reasonable emphasis to that. They are strapped for funds, just as all educational institutions are.

I think they have not been able to do so much in that area. I think some kind of improvement in the—in a motivational program that might provide some State matching

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money in greater amounts to school districts that are able to anty up some of their own funds, would be useful.

It might also be useful to explore the possibility of funding that might chanel both through the school districts and through the universities in order to strengthen those relationship.

DR. BISHOP: I think there is a need for teacher .'tutor counselors, a different kind of person than just a simple teacher.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Can you inform the Committee as to what the retention rate is for black students after five years.

DR. BISHOP: At the University of Pittsburgh? REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Yes. DR. BISHOP: You mean entering as freshmen? REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Entering as freshmen after

a five-year period. DR. BISHOP We have just started to track

retention in the university. We have all kinds of estimates of what retention' is.

You have read some of them around the State. The figures cited, range from thirty percent retention to slightly under fifty percent retention.

Retention can only really be measured by those who obtain degrees if you use the five-year figure I think


we now have crossed the fifty percent mark, although those data are not clean in graduation, in completion rate.

But if you use the normal four-year figure, I would be ashamed to give any figures there. I think they are dismally low.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Okay. Let's go to Table 3, which says that in 1980, that there was an undergraduate enrollement of 1726 black undergraduates.

How many of those students graduated from the University of Pittsburgh?

DR. BISHOP: We honestly do not know. We did not start tracking students on a retention basis until '82 or '83,

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Okay. DR. FREEMAN: We will try, if it is of interest

to develop some data and get that to you. I don' t know how good it will be, because our student retention data has traditionally, for all students, been very poor.

Mainly that is because students drop out for all kinds of reasons and they stretch their lives out.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Do you know what your general retention rate is for majority students?

DR. FREEMAN: No. I don't think we have good data on retention rates for any students.

DR. BISHOP: We just invested—you would know the dollar better than I do, Jack—a very large dollar in new


student data package, because our data is so poor, we are

ashamed to talk about it.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: I am going to wrap up,

Mr. Chairman. Two more questions.

The number on Table 12 when you talk about full-time

faculty and research associates. In 1980, you had 106 out of

2,000, and in 1985, you had 106 out of 2,300.

Vis-a-vis the univerity's commitment to improvement

in terms of the number of full-time faculty members who were

i black, how is that, in light of the numbers on Table 12?

DR. FREEMAN: The titles are somewhat misleading.

That fact is that most of the growth, virtually all of the

growth, in the numbers of total faculty, have been in the

school of medicine.

Those reflect full-time faculty as well as

people who are operating as research associates in the

research component♦ 1 i believe that one would find that throughout the 1 university, outside the school of medicine, the total number

' of faculty has actually declined during that period of time.

The number of black faculty in the school of

• medicine and as research associates and faculty is quite

small.

But I think that that reflects a reasonably good 1 job of sustaining black faculty in the area of the university

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7t7) 761-7150

1 outside the school of medicine, which has taken a decline in

2 total numbers of faculty since 1980.

3 REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Okay. The last question

4 is, do you know what the university's share was of the

5 academically qualified pool of high school, black high school

6 graduates?

7 DR. BISHOP: No, we don't have that from the State

8 as yet. They send that to us on a tape.

9 REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: All right. I am concerned

L0 about the number that you gave to one of my questions, which

U related to the number of academically able black students L2 who were admitted to the university. L3 It seems to me as though, for whatever reasons, the [i university is not competing very well in attacting qualified [5 academically able black students. L6 I would be very interested to know what those [7 numbers are in terms of the university's share of those L8 students in the Commonwealth. [9 DR. BISHOP: Why don't I send you that information

'0 as soon as we get that off tape.

21 REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: If you would sen!" that to

22 the Chairman, that would be helpful.

23 DR. BISHOP We would be happy to.

U DR. FREEMAN: Let me add, we are not satisfied with

25 that either.

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY <717) 761-7150

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Okay.

DR. FREEMAN: I think one of our grave concerns has been the fact that so many qualified black students go either out of state or outside the local area to educational opportunities.

That reflects, of course, the very strong competition for those students. The fact that many institutions, public and private, are able to provide very attractive opportunities for them.

But we are by no means satisfied with that and I think we must do a better job. One of the new thrusts that we will have at this university is in the honor's program.

A new honor's college is being established this year, the outgrowth of a amaller honors program this past year.

We are making some major efforts to—most of those students, come in on scholarships/ merit scholarship, of one kind or another.

I know that they are trying to seek out ways to cast their net bring in to that program, the exceptionally well-qualified black students who now are going to Harvard or Princeton or Yale.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. i CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me introduce two other


colleagues that just recently joined us, Representative

Nick Colafella and Representative Jerry Kosinski.

Do either of you have any questions?

REPRESENTATIVE : I have a lot of them.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me ask some questions while

you folks contemplate what you want to ask.

I have got a series of questions, actually. Let

me begin by asking you to clarify some of the information in

the sheets that you provided us, data sheets.

Let me go to Table 3, for starters. Could you

explain the disparity or just explain the numbers? For instance,

for "85, if we add up black and white students we are at about

eighty-two percent.

In the prior year it is seventy-five, seventy-six

percent. Where are the other students? Are they nonwhite,

nonblack?

DR. BISHOP: Right. They are Hispanic, Native

Americans, Asian or Pacific Islanders or non-Americans.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: So out of the undergraduates

enrolled in 1984, twenty-five percent were Hispanic, Native

Americans,non—

DR. BISHOP: Oh, I see, in 1984, yes.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Right.

DR. BISHOP: Yes.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Twenty-five percent?


DR. BISHOP:' Yes.

DR. FREEMAN: Let me addf I think it is fair to

say that some of those are simply unknown. We don't—

DR. BISHOP: No. These are extrapalated data

where we have assigned all unknowns.

DR. FREEMAN: Okay.

DR. BISHOP: In this particular outing, we have

given unknowns percentage assignments. So, yes, that year

approximately twenty-five percent of our students were either

American Hispanics, Americans of Oriental background, Native

Americans or non-national.

We have a fair number of foreign students here and

it varies.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Could you provide us a further

breakout for those same years?

DR. BISHOP: Yes.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I think some members of our

Committee could be interested in all that information, but

particularly interested in what the university is doing for

Hispanic students.

We have a growing Hispanic population here in

Pennsylvania, as well as around the country, obviously. That

would be an interesting number.

DR. FREEMAN: We will get that.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. Explain to me further, what


happened in 1984? That number of black students and the

percentage that it iresulted in, it stands out.

There was some dramatic decrease and then you

recovered from it in 1985. What happened in 1984?

DR. FREEMAN: I don't think we know. The numbers

were startling to me when I saw them. I am not sure whether

we have some kind of statistical (word inaudible) data for

that year or whether that does in fact reflect some change.

DR. BISHOP: There was a real change in that year.

DR. FREEMAN: There was a real change.

DR. BISHOP: It is like the great race. It is

the great debate. Everyone has a different reason here as

to why that occurred,

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Even as I look across the other

side of the chart there, and even your white population

decreased dramatically that year.

DR. BISHOP; It was a very interesting year.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Did you have a sudden influx

of nonblack, nonwhite and then they all left the next year

again? I don't understand that.

DR. FREEMAN: I believe—Dr. Bishop (word inaudible)

is responsible for keeping the data. But when I look at those

numbers, I think there is something wrong with the

statistical analysis.

It is hard for me to believe-that there would be

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7 17> 761 -71 50

[ that kind of dramatic change in a single year and then ! a redoubling of that the following year. 1 Now, part of that may be simply due to the fact

that there may have been a larger number of unknowns that

were—which are statistically distributed. 1 We cannot compel people to tell us what race they

are. So as a consequence, we get a lot of people that we

simply have to assign on a statistical basis.

It may very weil be that that year our collection

of data was faulty.

DR. BISHOP: If you will recall—

DR. FREEMAN: I don't believe the number, .because

it is (words inaudible)

DR. BISHOP: That was the year we put in the

extra money, because our responses were so poor. We don't

know whether our systems failed or what it was.

We put a considerable dollar into trying to

retrieve data that was never turned in.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: One chart that I don't believe

is in here and I may have overlooked it. You indicate

enrollments at the undergraduate, graduate level, professional

level, for all students on campus or on the campuses at that

particular time.

You do not have information that would reflect

freshmen enrollment and the relative success of your recruitmert

I COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717) 761-7150

efforts from year to year then for new freshmen.

DR. BISHOP: I probably have some of that data

even here with me, if you would like that.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Yes. That would help us in a

sense of what has been happening with respect to the

recruitment of minority students.

DR. BISHOP: Do you mind if it is in the State

goal format, because I have the goals and then the actual

performance.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: We are interested in the numbers,

whatever the format is.

DR. FREEMAN: If we don't have those for the

comparative years, we will get those for you and send them to

you, Mr. Chairman.

DR. BISHOP: I do have them.

DR. FREEMAN: We generate a lot of data around

here. Not all of it is within reach, unfortunately.

This chart also points out, Mr. Chairman, I might

add, another problem that we have, which I referred to, but

we didn't have a chart on it.

That is the very, very difficult task of

recruiting black students to our regional campuses. As you

know, most of those campuses are small, many of them are

located in the rural areas with very low or virtually nil

black population.


We found it extremely difficult to recruit and to hold black students there, where there is no social life outside of the institution for them where they are--they stand out because their numbers are so small and there are relatively poor support kinds of psychological sort of activities for black students.

It is a very serious problem for us. As you can see, our goals that we have established optomistically are not being met in the regional campuses, even though our goals at the Pittsburgh campus have been reasonably well achieved.

DR. BISHOP: In fact, here we have made our university wide goals, ■ It has been''because the Pittsburgh campus carries the load.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I know classes begin next week. What is the situation in terms of your paid admits though for—

DR. BISHOP: We don't even have that information in yet, because paid admits we don't count until they actually metriculate, since we do a lot of shift over in this last week.

We will have students who don't show up and students who said they weren't coming suddenly show up and be placed.

DR. FREEMAN: We will generate our full term data about the last week in October, after (word inaudible)

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7 17t 76 I-7 1 50

drop period has passed.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: You don't keep a running account. I remember when I used to work here, that used to be an important number that the Chancelor used to monitor on a week by week basis, how many people were paid admits.

DR. BISHOP: We do that in the spring. And then we drop it through the summer period when there are heavy switchovers and start up again in September.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Our work will continue through the fall. Our report will be completed some time in mid November, I suspect.

If you could provide us with current information as soon as you have it available, again, that would be very helpful, to us.

DR. FREEMAN: All right. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me go back to the point that

Representative Fattah was making or asking about. I just want to make sure I understand it.

Do I understand you to say that you don't have any information, any data on retention experiences here?

DR. FREEMAN: We don't have good data that I would be willing to stand upon. We have some estimates of retention leading back to, perhaps six or eight years.

I don't think the data is any good. That is why we have not provided it. We began to keep good solid, I think,


reasonably accurate retention data about 1983—was it?

DR. BISHOP: About three years.

DR. FREEMAN: So it will take us another two years

to generate a result from that, indicating what has happened

to those students who have entered in 198 3.

Our data is not good.

DR. BISHOP: We can give you data. I am willing to

provide data for you, but these data are not reliable. I

would not stand behind them.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Can you tell us how many of the

243 black students who enrolled for the first time in 1983

were still on one of the campuses in 1985?

DR. BISHOP: We can provide that for you.

DR. FREEMAN: Yes, we can do that.

DR. BISHOP: We can do that, yes.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Jerry?

REPRESENTATIVE KOSINSKI: I just have been glancing

over the graduate enrollment, the Table 9 on School of Law.

Black students twenty-one percentage, 2.9; white students,

4 96, percentage of 68.5.

I wasn't a math major, but who encompasses the

other twenty-nine percent.

DR. BISHOP: Hispanics, Oriental-Americans,

Native Americans, non-nationals.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Jerry, we asked for a breakout


on those other numbers, I guess, just as you were coming in.

REPRESENTATIVE KOSINSKI: That seems awfully high, extremely high.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me continue with some of the other questions. The retention information will be very, very important to us.

I want to just share with you why I think that is important. We were at Penn State last week. It became very clear that there are many people on the Penn State campus and I would suspect, maybe some people on the Pitt campus as well ,as .wel'Vats at other institutions, who are concerned about the degree to which institutions emphasize recruitment while ignoring or even to the detriment of retention efforts.

We heard one young man tell us last week, a student representative, tell us that some folks are all concerned about making themselves look good with recruitment numbers, but they really don't care about the kids, the students, the people, once they get here and they inflate their numbers.

Do they stay here and what do we do to help them stay here? Jack, I was browsing through this Office of Civil Rights report from the Department of Education.

They recently filed it with the State. I can go back and site the specific page if I am forced to. That report, with some consistency, in several different sections


suggests that the university is not providing enough information : or complete information about some of its efforts. [ One of the things that jumped out at me was the

failure of the university to provide any plan outlining its retention efforts at the regional campuses, something you just

1 cited as a major problem.

Does the university have a plan for retention at the regional campuses?

1 DR. BISHOP: Each of the regional campuses has 1 special support services built in for the few black students.

For example, at Bradford campus, we have usually somewhere between ten and twenty black students.

They have special support services for them on that campus. These are very small programs, though, very small efforts, usually part of the effort of one employee because of the numbers of students.

In Titusville there is not any program, but there is usually not more than, if as many, as one black student.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: You speak of a program. Has that program been reduced to writing? Is there something that people can look at, read about, analyze?

DR. BISHOP: We can give you something in writing for Johnstown. I would be willing to write something for the Bradford campus, if you would like.

I would be willing to write something for the


Greensburg campus.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I am less interested in having

something that we can look at. I am more interested in

knowing, is there a concrete plan that functions for the

university.

I think that that is one of the tests or criteria

that OCR is looking at as they look at Pitt and look at the

Commonwealth's efforts.

DR. BISHOP: I think I will provide you my response

to OCR, too, because I responded to every one of those items

in the report you are talking about.

The Committee might like to have that response.

Some of those were misunderstandings where the information

had already been submitted and another document (words

inaudible).

CHAIRMAN COWELL: That leads to another question.

Jack, you finish responding to this.

DR. FREEMAN: Well, I think it is fair to say that

none of us is satisfied with retention efforts, either on this

campus or on our regional campuses.

Retention, tracking retention, identifying what

it is that forces people to leave once they are here is a very v

complex set of questions.

We haven't done as good a job. We had a committee

which operated for about eighteen months, a year and a half


ago, to look specifically to the issue of retention of minority students.

They came out with a number of recommendations, many of which have been implemented. But I am not at all sure that we have identified all of the reasons or that we have the capacity to mount programs that are going to totally correct that problem.

It is a very complicated problem. It has to do not just with what we do formally in the classroom and in tutoring and counseling and that kind of thing, but it has to do with the ambiance, which is generated by students, by the faculty, by the surrounding community.

Certainly we see that. I was president of the Johnstown campus for several years during the period of time when we were trying to generate some increased enrollment of that campus.

I am painfully familiar with the difficulties the black students have on essentially a rural, small town campus where there is no outside support mechanisms or very few.

It is hard to create that on a campus that is predominently white. We have very few black faculty and very few black students.

So it is a complicated issue. I don't want to run away from it. I don't think we know enough about what we need to do to retain black students.


We are learning as we go along. I mentioned in my testimony that in that first decade of our efforts to recruit black students, emphasis was on getting them here.

While we provided some support, we didn't have the kinds of careful mechanisms, both to identify students with probabilities of success.

We recruited a lot of students, to be sure, but many of them simply were not--did not have the academic background or the motivation or other incentives to succeed academically.

Our support mechanisms were not as good as they ought to be. We are learning as we go along in this area. It would be a mistake for us to suggest to you that we have the answers in that area.

We are working on trying to do a better job in that area. We are trying to implement some of the recommendation of the retention committee of two years.

I think we are doing a better job than we were before. I think—I don't have the data, because our retention data was not very good in the past.

But my gut feeling in talking with the people who are active and close to this problem in the university is that we are doing a better job of both identifying students with stronger chances for success here, providing them with the background and support that they need to be


successful.

I think we are being more successful. But we are certainly not being nearly as successful as we would like to be.

I think we have to continue to find better ways of doing that.

DR. BISHOP: Let me give you a little piece of data, one little piece of information. After that first decade (word inaudible) experience, because Pitt started early and enthusiasticly and I think did everything you could possibly do wrong in the first ten years with these kinds of programs.

Since I was around here, I feel free to say that, Jack. You were, too.

We developed what was called a Learning Skills Center on this campus. It took us ten years almost to figure out students sometimes need something, not just black students, but all students, something more in support.

The Learning Skills Center was in operation over five years before we figured out that we couldn't wait for students to go use it.

We are paying people and the people are busy, but often the students who needed the Learning Skills Center most weren't getting there.

We looked at that in the early seventies. In


' 72ort '73, we decided to give them enough money to do a little experiment.

We had two groups of students in equal trouble that we identified. These students were both black and white. They were in serious academic trouble.

One group we sent the usual letter to saying you could go to the Learning Skills Center, if you wanted to. The other group was sort of required to go there.

They had their hand held. We lost most of the first group. We had about sixty people in it. We retained over eighty percent of the second group.

Does that give you an idea of the kinds of things we are still learning to do that are so obvious you would think we would know to do those automatically?

So this is how far behind we really are and how many simple things we often don't think to do. If that is helpful.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: One of the retention programs the Commonwealth does support and everybody on this Committee is generally supportive of it, and it was the subject of a series of hearings we had a couple of years, was Act 101.

My recollection is that at that time, anyway, here at Pitt, the 101 funds were directed to a program in the School of Engineering.

DR. BISHOP That is right.


CHAIRMAN COWELL; And that none of those funds, anyway, were used for students in arts and sciences. Is that still the case and what is the status of a retention program, if you will, for those arts and science students'and do you have something comparable to 101?

DR. BISHOP: No, we do not, bluntly. But, no, it is not correct to say none of those funds are used for students in any other program.

, The Pitt Engineering Impact Program which is what

> we use our 101 funds for, is part of that summer transitional program we provide.

At this point that is the base for our developmental retention programs in nursing. It has been the model and base for a program that we have since found Federal money for in the Graduate School of Public Health.

It is the base for the program that was formed in the School of Medicine. It is the base for what we are doing with students in the Natural Sciences.

In other words, a department pays so much, ■ ■ support a small amount of support, to put so many of their students in that program.

So I see that program as a model on our campus, and one of the most viable and strongest retention programs we have.

DR. FREEMAN: I think it is fair to say that the


major thrust of our arts and sciences retention program is

UCEP itself.

It is a predominently, though not exclusively,

oriented to arts and science students. The bulk of those

students that are entered into that program end up in arts

and sciences.

I think that it provides the tutoring, the

counseling and the special academic upgrading program

opportunities for most of the black students that eventually

graduate from the (word inaudible) of arts and sciences.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: One further clarification on the

tables that were provided. For the university wide enrollment,

are those FTE's or actual bodies, even if they are taking one

course?

DR. FREEMAN: That is head count.

DR. BISHOP: These are head counts.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: As you provide some additional

in f o rma t ion—

DR. BISHOP: Would you like FTE's?

CHAIRMAN COWELL: If you could break it out in terms

of FTE's, so we have some sense of how many of the students

are enrolled full-time and how many are part-time students.

DR. FREEMAN: Sure. We will give you the data.

DR. BISHOP: We will give (words inaudible).

REPRESENTATIVE : What percentage of the


black students that are on the list are—do you just know off-hand—are part-time students?

DR. BISHOP; I don't know off-hand. The majority of our black students are full-time students on the undergraduate level.

On the graduate level, it varies with the program.

REPRESENTATIVE : Thank you.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I have several questions on the OCR situation. OCR filed a report with the State some time early in July.

I understand that that report was predicated on some site visits that really occurred last year, some time in the late summer or early fall of 1985.

I guess I personally question the usefullness of a report with recommendations filed a year after the fact. You had commented that you have responded to a number of the points relative to the University of Pittsburgh.

Can you comment about the report generally? As I said, just a casual reading suggests that, in view of OCR anyway, that there are a number of areas where they are looking for more information or more complete information from Pitt.

Can you comment about the report generally? DR. BISHOP: I can comment. Well, people here

tease me. I could comment at great length on that report.


First of all, OCR never paid a site visit to the University of Pittsburgh during the '84-'85 academic year. They then, of course, returned their comments on our written report on '84-'85 to us in '86, which did us absolutely no good.

Many of the comments they made related to information we had already given them. For example, they asked us why we weren't entering into certain cooperative agreements with Lincoln and Cheyney, when, if they read the State plan, the State clearly assigned schools to certain roles and told us not to work in other areas which OCR then came back and asked us why we weren't addressing.

They also asked us questions that were relevant to reports that had been submitted a year before, even, and had not reviewed the State information nor had they reviewed the appendices to the report we submitted.

In fact, almost every question they asked, had the information included in the report we sent to them in one of the appendices.

So I don't know what to say. DR. FREEMAN: Let us do this, if we could. Let's

provide you with a copy of our response to the report, which I think will answer most of those questions.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Fine. I want to make sure that in our report we don't repeat any inaccuracies or problems


that are defined in that report.

DR. BISHOP: We can give you the full packet of things submitted both to the Commonwealth and to OCR this year.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: On the OCR plan and the implementation of the plan, you raise another question in terms of your submissions to the Department of Education, State Department of Education.

What kind of guidance have you received, direction have you received, and what kind of monitoring do you experience and what kind of assistance do you see from the Pennsylvania Department of Education as you were to meet the objectives of the OCR plan?

DR. BISHOP: The State has worked very hard to facilitate the universities and colleges cooperating, all thirty-two of us and to keep us in communication at all times.

Our problems are primarily because of our own structural differences and mission differences, so that there is, in some cases,what appears to be an overlap of efforts, which almost cannot be avoided, if you look at the actual mandate that was put upon us.

And in other cases, there is confusion about who should be on the lead. Let me give you an example. If you talk about articulation agreements, any way we look at these, although we all have responsibilities, it appears when you get

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7 17) 761 -7 1 50

to the bottom line the greatest importance in establishing strong articulation agreements is between the community colleges and the State system schools.

If you look at other programs, it looks as if the

State relateds, except for Lincoln, have the primary

responsibility for graduate education.

It would appear this way. But in actual fact, it doesn't always work out this way, because students make choices.

For example, we may work ever so hard to come up

with an engineering agreement with Lincoln University or Cheyney University, just to discover that most of their students would prefer to articulate with Temple or the University of Penn, because of distance.

On the other hand, we may have areas that are not anywhere in the program, which we are working on with

those institutions because they are unique. 1 In one instance, we have been working with Lincoln 1 developing or exploring the development of a computer assisted 1 learning component that would be an arm on one of our research

components here, which would operate out of the Philadelphia ! center or in Delaware Valley, which Lincoln's faculty and i students could use as a research arm. t The problem there again becomes money, funds. < Because we may have a Federal grant to do this which ties us

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717) 761 -7150

in such a way and where it is an all soft money project, we

are tied, so that we can't deploy the kind of thing we would

like and we have no other resources to do this.

Do you understand what I am saying about the kinds

of things that emerge? These are the kinds of problems we

have, which aren't—you could expect the State Department of

Education to be able to provide support.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: So do I understand correctly';-.'the

Department of Education's role has basically been one of

bringing people together?

DR. BISHOP: Facilitating us.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: But not much else?

DR. BISHOP: Well, I don't think you could

logically expect them to do the discipline or content area

any more than I would interfere once I get the engineering

component here together with the engineering component at

Cheyney.

I feel—I am a psychologist. That is not my job

as engineers. They should be better able to work this out

together than I would be.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Has the Department of Education

indicated any concern? Ultimately, it is the Commonwealth

that is the subject of the court suit, rather than the several

institutions.

Has the Department of Education indicated any


particular concern about the progress or lack of progess in meeting the goals stated in the plan?

DR. BISHOP: Oh, yes. We meet every two months and are held accountable for what we have or have not done at that point and are held to deadlines, time tables, et cetera.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: What happens if you don't meet the deadlines?

DR. BISHOP: You get your hands slapped. That is about it.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: You get your hands slapped. A final area where I wanted to ask some questions is in the area of recruitment.

The Commonwealth has been giving several institutions, including Pitt, an extra $200,000 a year, a separate line item for recruitment efforts.

Here at the university, what have you done differently with that $200,000 that otherwise you would not have done?

How has that $200,000 made a difference in terms of your efforts and your relative success?

DR. BISHOP: Do you want to speak to that issue? DR. FREEMAN: No, why don't you do it. DR. BISHOP: I think that has made a tremendous

difference here. For the first time in the almost twenty years I have been at the University of Pittsburgh, I can


honestly say there is no one of our schools or regional campuses that does not work to recruit black students now.

They may not be very efficient at it. In fact, as I said, there are some schools for whom this is a relatively new thing and they are still learning.

At least they are trying. There is no school at the university of Pittsburgh and no major program that does not now look to see what they can do that is innovative.

I won't say that everything they have tried has been good, but they try. We are encouraging schools also to develop small proposals for enhancement programs, rather than just recruitment.

Retention is a vital kind of thing. We try to use some of that money for retention. For example, some of that money is always deployed for a little bit of scholarship support, for outstanding students, strong students, regular admits, those students.

Some of those funds are used to also encourage the articulation activities between this institution and Lincoln and Cheyney.

Some of those funds are used to encourage the development of more of the summer programs. We have been able to get almost every school interested in internship programs, developmental programs because they know if they come up with a good idea there may be some funds available.


Does this give you some idea of the ways in which

this has made a difference?

CHAIRMAN COWELL: You cited a lot of programs. I

get the impression that $200,000 is spread pretty thin.

DR. BISHOP: It is.

DR. FREEMAN: It is. Let me add. It does enhance

some opportunities to do some things that we just couldn't

do otherwise.

I don't want to minimize the impact of that

$200,000. It is not a trivial sum and it is an amount that

has been possible for us to mount some fairly effective small

programs.

But, of course, $200,000 does not go a long way. I

would suggest one of the things we should do is provide you

with our last report on the way in which those funds were

actually expended last year.

CHAIRMAN COWELL:• Again, if you would, please do

that.

DR. BISHOP: I said I was going to give them the

full packet.

Would you like the ways in which it has been used

for all three years?

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Yes.

DR. FREEMAN: Vhy don't we do that?

DR. BISHOP: With a little analysis sheet on top


to show you--

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Any of that information that you can provide will be appreciated.

I am still on the recruitment effort. You had cited the growing relationship with the Pittsburgh School District.

I am glad to hear that. I have heard positive things about that. I think everybody on this Committee agrees that we need to—universities, higher education institutions, into work with our school districts on a closer basis and all of us need to focus a little bit more on elementary and early secondary students as they really begin to form their attitudes by going on to school after high school and staying in school at all.

Are you doing anything with school districts outside of the Pittsburgh School District?

DR. FREEMAN: I can't speak to that, specifically. We have, as I believe you know, a tri-state study council which is based in our school of education which ties together a number of school districts, not just in Pennsylvania, but in Ohio and West Virginia, as well.

They have been active I know. In one dimension that they are active has been recruitment of and motivation of black students in those school districts.

But I can't speak to the specifics of what we are


doing outside of Pittsburgh directly.

DR. BISHOP: Primarily, we have done two things within the Commonwealth outside of the Pittsburgh area. One has been the on-going work done by our desegregation center which is located in the School of Education.

They do training workshops all over the Commonwealth. So this is their outreach, but not the kind of' thing you are talking about (words inaudible) recruitment.

Of course, there is a lot of recruitment. Also, each of our regional campuses which is quite a spread, does some outreach within their own communities.

This is, again, not coordinated with (word inaudible).

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me give you an example. I represent three school districts; Pittsburgh, a portion of it; I also represent the Woodland Hills and Wilkinsburg School Districts.

I know your deseg center has been very active in terms of the Woodland Hills District. I am not sure though that that has had an impact on any post secondary education decision of the students,, although it may have indirectly, because facul.ty attitudes are very important.

But is the university doing anything in particular through your minority recruitment efforts to reach out to the Wilkinsburg School District or Woodland Hills School District


that have high minority enrollments to try to attract some of those good students to the university?

DR. BISHOP: Yes, we are.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: What would that be then?

DR. BISHOP: Primarily, we visit the schools, visit the counselors. We have those counselors on campus once a year, develop a list of students who they think are outstanding and at least once a year we invite each of those students along with their parents to lunch, usually a football game, learn about the university, learn about financial aid, et cetera, et cetera, and try to sell the University of Pittsburgh to them and their parents.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Are you speaking specifically of minority students?

DR. BISHOP: Yes, yes.

DR. FREEMAN: I think the other thrust of your question, Mr. Chairman, was what are we doing through, let's say, the School of Education to strengthen and improve the educational opportunities within the school districts for minority students.

I know there is a number of activites in that area. I think it might be useful if we would obtain from the School of Education a list of those kinds of activities, both within the Pittsburgh School Districts and outside that I think would add to your inventory of information about what

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the School of Education in particular is doing in those areas to strengthen the educational foundation for black students.

We will get you a report on that.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Fine. Thank you very much.

Representative Colafella, questions?

REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA: Yes. Jack, it is good to see that you are back at Pitt.

I just have one question. Is there anything that you think the Commonwealth ought to be doing that we are not doing now to attract more black students to attend higher education institutions?

DR. FREEMAN: I indicated in my earlier testimony that we think that there are several areas where programs of the Commonwealth could be beneficial.

These are in such areas as strengthening urban educational programs, generally, and also in certain key areas, such as engineering, science, mathematics and technology, to improve both the motivation and the ability of black students who currently do not have adequate foundations.in those areas, make them more successful once they come to college.

We think there are ways of strengthening financial aid programs that can make it more reasonable for students to come.

We also suggested the continuation of the

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Commonwealth programs to build articulation arrangements between the predominently black institutions, Cheyney and Lincoln, and the Commonwealth universities, such as Pitt.

We have already begun some work in that area, but funding has been minor.relative to the size of the task. We would hope that those programs might also be expanded both in terms of strengthening the academic programs at Lincoln and Cheyney to better prepare students to enter graduate programs here and also to provide us with some funding in the Commonwealth university level to improve our ability to serve those graduates of the predominently black institutions.

DR. BISHOP: I think there is something very important here that we have been very polite about not saying. If we really want successful programming for black students, since most black students are black people and since most black people are like all people, black students want to come in as normal students.

Indeed when they are born and start out as children, they are as normal, as ordinary as anyone else. They needn't ever be special anything,academically disadvantaged, special admitts, et cetera, et cetera, if we were about the business of really educating these children and giving them the support that they might need from the beginning.

If we just look at the difference in what happens


very early on and what we call our star school districts or our (word inaudible) public school districts—now, I am speaking as a psychologist who has done research in both kinds of schools—and we look at what happens early on in inner city schools, I think we would discover that we could save a lot of money at this end by doing our job at that end.

The money we really need at this end, however, if we did our job at that end, would be financial aid money. This population certainly does not have the capital wealth that some other populations have and is not going to get this capital wealth without the opportunities to do so.

That brings me to the funds that allocated now and legislative capped by law for support of Lincoln, Cheyney graduates and when they are exhausted, other black PennsylVanians who have gone to a State system or State related school in graduate education.

If you offer the average student in medical school, $5,000 stipend as a help, you really haven't been very generous, because their debt load for each year of that $5,000 at a cheap medical school is going to be $17,000 and you multiply that by four.

If they don't have a really good internship and residency, i.e., at a top medical center where you get top dollar, you add to that debt load.

If I were a fairly clever young person now coming


out of school, I certainly wouldn't opt for that, because I can think of lots of ways that I could go to school for a year and a half out of college, being relatively bright and somebody would buy me a seat on the right stock market, in the right house, I wouldn't need this grief.

I don't understand, really, I don't understand why young black people accept this even. It is almost a slap in the face for medical or dental education.

Then you cap us at 2.5 thousand for law, $2,500 for law. Do you realize what law school tuition alone is, much less room, board, books?

If you have a student who didn't come out of a top notch school to start with/ who wasn't prepped for their first year of law, and who was not taught pneumonic devices, because if you'idon't know pneumonic devices, you are going to stay up all night your first year in law school or your first year in medical school or your first year in dental school because all you do is memorize.

It is just like psysiology or any of the rest of it that experimental psychologist take. You stay up and you memorize.

If this student isn't disciplined to do that, they certainly can't work on the side, because they will flunk out very rapidly.

So I think this is a false hope, almost a teasing


L kind of thing, that this legislation has done. I see it , sometimes as hurtful rather than helpful.

t CHAIRMAN COWELL: Clarify for me, if you will, all

t of us, what cap were you talking about? Were you talking about . the capatation rate? . DR. BISHOP: No, no. There are two pieces of

r legislation now, the $200,000, which is a little—

, CHAIRMAN COWELL: You are talking about the

( recruitment money?

( DR. BISHOP: Yes. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay.

DR. BISHOP: That is recruitment, retention and enhancement money, incidently. We are expected to use that three ways, not one way.

Secondly, there is the fund that was set up for encouraging black students to complete graduate education within the Commonwealth.

Those funds had gone up slightly each year on a very small scale. They are given to Pitt, Penn State and Temple in return for their service to black students from the Commonwealth in graduates in professional education.

I am saying that those funds are so rediculously low that it is almost insulting to use them as we now must.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Let me just respond to that for a minute. The intent of the Commonwealth in setting up the


Commonwealth scholarship fund is to assist and be of additional aid to universities such as Pitt.

It is not to supplant, nor to diminish the interest of the university itself, through its own funds and its own activity, to recruit and to provide financial aid and incentives to students at its medical school or law school or school of dentistry.

So even though they are capped at certain amounts, that this was a fund that until the OCR plan did not exist at all.

What I have heard today in terms of the overall picture here at the university, is that indeed we need to do more.

I am sure that many on this Committee agree that we need to do more. But the university has to do more. It has to have a desire to compete and compete along with the other universities that you named this morning in terms of the real world of higher education, to get qualified academically able black students here under the same circumstances that they recruited and competed for at other universities.

I understand your comment and appreciate it. We are going to do all we can to enlarge that fund.

DR. BISHOP: We would appreciate that. REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: But the fund itself is not


again to supplant your responsibility to make this university competitive in the market.

DR. BISHOP: If I might add something else before we leave that point. I expected you to say that and I resinate very positively to that.

At a school like the University of Pittsburgh, since there are areas like medicine (word inaudible) ■recruit--1 ; (word inaudible) student otherwise, if there were supplementary

1 legislation on such funding, it would be more helpful if the legislation were open and didn't name areas so that you didn't find—well, we are all human—a bit of greed coming up between schools because it would be much better if we use that money more heavily in areas like business where we were discussing the problem.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: The other thing is if the administration of the school rewarded those graduate programs that showed an ability to compete and diversify their student bodies, I am sure that those schools in competing for their overall share would take much more of an interest in the number and quantity and quality of black students.

DR. BISHOP: That is true. DR. FREEMAN: If I could just make one sort of

summary comment. If one had to examine where the Commonwealth can best invest its money in order to do the most good for black student enrollment, retention and graduation, if our


objective is the overall enhancement of the black educational benefits that we get from Commonwealth funding, I believe that it would lie in two major areas.

One would be in improving the opportunities and the quality of education for students in the elementary and secondary level, to improve their motivation, their outlook, their insight and the quality of their education.

Universities are not very good at remediation. We are very good at teaching good quality undergraduate, graduate and professional education.

But we are not very good at remediation. That is not our business and we get into it and we work very hard to try to do it and we invest a fair amount of money in those remediation programs, but we are not terribly good at it, because that is not our bag, so to speak.

The public schools are the people that ought to be doing that and preparing students most effectively so that they can compete at a general level at the college level.

What we need to assist those students who are mostly economically disadvantaged as well as academically underprepared, are the scholarship assistance to assist us in meeting the true cost of those as well as such remediation efforts as we have to continue to operate.

If we were looking at ways to spend the public dollar most effectively, to improve black education in the

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Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, I am personally convinced that spending it very heavily to improve the quality of education, particularly in urban school districts that have high concentrations of black students, and in making it possible for institutions to provide at the graduate and undergraduate levels, scholarship assistance to overcome the economic disadvantaged problems, would be the very best way in which we can spend the public dollar.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Nick, other questions?

REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA: Let me just react to one thing you just said. Jack, maybe it is time that the universities think about improving themselves in the area of remediation, because if you are spending an enormous amount—spending a lot of effort to recruit black students and they now have made a decision to come to Pitt for whatever reason, maybe the university ought to think about establishing some type of remediation center.

DR. FREEMAN: We had those, Mr. Colafella. REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA: But I don't see any

reason at all why you couldn't do a great job in the area of remediation.

DR. FREEMAN: I am simply saying that if we have a dollar to spend, I can tell you that the best way to spend that money is improving the general quality of our educational opportunities for black students and to provide them with the


economic wherewithall to pay the tuition and the other costs associated with going to college.

We spend a lot of money and we do it reasonably well, in terms of remediation, but in a sense, that is not our—that ought not to be our business, in a perfect world.

We don't have a perfect world. But in a perfect well ordered society, the teaching of pre-collegeate education ought to be the public schools responsibilitity, not the universities.

We are not in that business for that purpose. But we are forced to do it and we spend a great deal of money on such things as UCEF, which is an important remediation program, such things a learning skills and other remediation activities, because we have no choice to do that.

But I simply am saying that if we are really looking at how we can most effectively spend dollars, probably the investment of many of those dollars at the public school level to improve the outcoming quality of students from those systems, is probably a better way to spend out money than in providing remediation at the university level.

DR. BISHOP: Pardon me, sir. Are you saying : something else? Are you saying, regardless of what we may be, I this may be the business that we need to be about? I REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA: I am saying historically

> the universities feel exactly what you have just stated. I

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY 1717)761-7150

think that maybe the time has come where universities ought to begin thinking differently about the whole area of remediation.

The reason why I say that is because I think times have changed. I think young people today do not read as rauch as they used to because of television and the electronic world that they have been exposed to.

They graduate from high school and even though public schools try to do a good job, they may not be meeting the expectations of what you would like for them to be able to do.

But I think that maybe the universities ought to think about a new role and that is a role of really making remediation a very high priority matter.

I think if they did it and if they expend the effort that they can do, I think all the way around, I think we may all get a better bang out of our buck.

DR. FREEMAN: Well, we may be forced to do that. I have no doubt that under present circumstances we have no alternative but to do it.

I would like to site, however, just one antidote which maybe indicates something that schools can do. A few years ago we modified and made much more rigorous our admission standards for the College of Arts and Sciences of this university, requiring, for example, among other things, a bringing in for full admission foreign language

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training.

The result of that, has been that a number of high schools that abolish their foreign language training programs a few years ago, now have reinstituted them, so that they have taken the grasp (words inaudible) and said, we must do this in order to qualify our students for admission.

I think public schools ought to be thinking about that in terms of the quality of education for all students but maybe more particularly for black students who seem to be more heavily academically disadvantaged than, particularly the urban school systems, than other students.

I guess that if the universities display a willingness to undertake the total remediation problem then maybe we won't place the responsibility on the public schools where we believe they belong.

We need to work as educational institutions, obviously, with those school districts to make that possible.

DR. BISHOP: On the other hand, Jack, I think something important has been said to us, because you pointed out the growing Hispanic population in the State.

We don't have that population in this particular end of the State, but you certainly do in the eastern end of the State.

That dropout figure we were citing for black

students, is astronomical for Hispanic students in the

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Philadelphia area.

It seems to me maybe you are right, we are going to have to learn to do remediation better.

REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA: You have got all the resources.

DR. BISHOP: Well, we have a couple good programs. Our {word inaudible) program, I would put up against any. I think it is one of the best in the country, our 101 program.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me move us along. One other colleague has joined us during this discussion, Jess Stairs.

Jess, do you have any questions? Are there any other questions? Representative Telek. REPRESENTATIVE TELEK: I just wanted to mention, I

sort of more or less concur with Dr. Freeman. I don't think the universities should get too involved in remedial education.

I think there are other ways. Maybe there should i

be some kind of an inbetween, following high school graduation, pre-entry into a college, maybe another level where remediation should take place, or maybe—we have a lot of community colleges around the State, maybe they should be involved more so with remediation than the universities.

I have a mixed feeling about all this remediation. Yours should be on professional and academic development.

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How can you be selected if you are going to get involved in all this remedial programs, black, white, Hispanic or whatever.

I don't think we should get too overly wrapped up in that in our academic setting. That is my opinion.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: We will take that as a rhetorical', question that doesn't require an answer right now.

Are there any others? REPRESENTATIVE TELEK: Especially before election. REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Mr. Chairman? CHAIRMAN COWELL: Representative Fattah. REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Mr. Chairman, I hate to

debate this at this point, but let me just say a couple of things.

I believe it was the 1983 report of the college boards, along with the President's Commission report on the status of schools here in the country and several other reports that came out after that.

It showed that on the whole— (Changing from Tape 1 to Tape 2.) REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: —system of education has

failed at least as it relates to preparing young people in terms of entering college at the level that colleges would like to receive them.

I am sure that the University of Pitt 'and most of the

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institutions of higher ed, who want to have a fairly diverse student body, do a fair deal of remediation, not even taking into account and special efforts that are provided for minority students.

This State happens to have the--we rank forty-eighth out of fifty states in terms of our participation, high school students in the State going on to any institution of higher education.

Of the Adams states, we have the lowest retention of all students, black, white, across the board. We have some work to do.

We are going to need all of us to play some role in that. I am not sure that we can just move ahead and assume that this fine university and others are going to be able to go on without taking into account those facts.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN COWELL: There being no further questions,

we thank you for your testimony. DR. FREEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN COWELL: We will look forward to

receiving the information you promised.

DR. FREEMAN: Thank you.

DR. BISHOP: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Thank you.

(Witnesses excused.)


CHAIRMAN COWELL: Our next scheduled witnesses are

representatives of the faculty of the University of Pittsburgh,

Dr. Philip Wion, President of United Faculty of the University

of Pittsburgh; Dr. Dennis Brutus, Chairman of Black Studies

at the university and Dr. Barbara Sizemore, of the Department

of Black Community Education.

I hope I have that correct.

DR. WION: It is a somewhat longer name,

I believe, Black Community Education, Research and Development.

Black Studies for short.

I guess I will lead off.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I would like the three of you

- to come forward together.

Do you have any prepared remarks?

Whereupon,

PHILIP K. WION, DENNIS BRUTUS and.BARBARA SIZEMORE

having been called, testified as follows:

DIRECT TESTIMONY

DR. WION: I think all three of us do. We will

try to go as quickly as we can.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. Do you have copies that

you can share with us?

DR. WION: Yes, we do. Would you like those now?

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Yes, if possible. It will help

some us follow along.


We will begin. Dr. Wion. DR. WION: I am Philip Wion.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Sorry about that. DR. WION: That is okay. I tell my students it

rhymes with lion. Philip Wion, Association Professor of English at

the University of Pittsburgh and President of the United Faculty of the University of Pittsburgh.

Mr. Chairman, members of the Sub-Committee, United Faculty is grateful for the invitation to give testimony on efforts to promote racial integration and nondiscrimination at the University of Pittsburgh.

With me to present testimony are United Faculty members, Professor Barbara Sizemore, former chair of the Department of Black Community Education, Research and Development, Black Studies; and Professor Dennis Brutus, newly appointed chair of the same department.

United Faculty is an organization of Pitt faculty members affiliated with the American Association of University Professors and with the American Federation of Teachers.

United Faculty is currently seeking to become the facultys legal representative for purposes of collective bargaining.

Over thirty percent of the eligible faculty have


signed cards backing our petition for representation election.

United Faculty is on record strongly in support of affirmative action at Pitt. We find it generally disappointing the university's performance in recruitment and retention of black faculty and students.

During the 1970's some progress was made toward increasing the numbers of black faculty and students at Pitt. But in the early eighties, forward progress began to falter.

Percentages of faculty and students who are black actually began to decline. In May 1985, Equipoise (phonetic) the organization of black faculty, administrators and staff at Pitt, presented to President Wesley Posvar a strong call for action titled, Enhancing the Black Presence at the University of Pittsburgh, a positive agenda for action.

Among the data included in the Equipoise document were the following, and I am quoting, there were 106 black, non-Hispanic full-time faculty at the University of Pittsburgh during the fall term 1983; sixty-four male and forty-two female, of 2,388 total, or four percent.

Ten years before, Constance Carol reported that eight percent of the professional staff was black. In the fall of 1984, only two percent of the faculty in health sciences were black.

Aside from physicians, only four blacks held tenure. Omitting the Black Studies Department, Arts and

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Sciences was virtually all white.

There were no black tenured faculty and no black tenure stream faculty in the School of Business, the Dental School/ General Studies, the Graduate School of Public Health, Nursing, or the School of Pharmacy.

There was only one tenured black in the four regional campuses and only one in the School of Law and one in the School of Library and Information Science.

Among the 2,600 teaching faculty, only two blacks were full professors. There was no' black presidents in the president's executive staff.

In sum, the Equipoise report concluded, to the extent that statistics are available, the affirmative action trend for black in almost every area of university life is negative and totally unacceptable.

Data we received yesterday from the University's Office of Affirmative Action indicate that the percentage of black faculty continue to decline in 1984 and then rebounded slightly back to four percent in 1985.

Some of the decline in black faculty in the early eighties can be attributed to failure to retain distinguished faculty who were already here.

In too many cases, top black faculty received offers from other institutions. Administrators were unwilling or unable to do what was necessary to keep them.

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We should note, however, that this problem does not affect black faculty alone. Pitt salaries in general need to be made more competitive.

They are well below the mean faculty salaries at peer universities, the fifty-six top institutions which make up the American Association of Universities.

There is some evidence of during the past year or two under the leadership of Provost Roger Benjamin, university's efforts to recruit and retain black faculty became somewhat stronger.

Provost Benjamin indicated that he was willing to commit significant energy and financial resources to attracting and keeping distinguished minority faculty.

The presence on campus this fall of several outstanding new black colleagues, including Professor Brutus, suggest that the Provost had some success.

In July, however, Provost Benjamin suddenly left Pitt to return to the University of Minnesota. We hope that the sense of strengthen commitment to minority faculty he brought to Pitt's administration will remain.

The problem of recruitment of minority students has also been addressed with some success in the past year or two.

More troubling, however, is the problem of retaining the students once they are here and insuring that they

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acquire the knowledge and skills necessary to complete their degrees successfully.

Data on student retention seem hard to come by at Pitt. But it is clear that all too many students who enroll fail to graduate and it is likely that the percentage is disproportionately high for blacks.

In the view of the United Faculty, the university should assign a higher priority to advising, counseling and other student support services.

In particular, the University Community Educational Program, UCEP, which works closely with specially admitted students, most of them black, could use significantly greater resources.

In general, undergraduate education suffers from a relatively low priority of attention at Pitt. University's reward system, for example, clearly favors research, especially grant funded research, and tends to discourage faculty from devoting major resources of time and energy to undergraduate students.

When it comes to decisions on promotion and tenure, or on salary raises, faculty know that teaching and service to the community weigh much less heavily than research.

Last year faculty in one school were told flatly not to expect a raise unless a grant proposal was on the dean's


desk by a certain date.

Black facualty often feel especially torn by the mixed messages they receive from the institution. They feel the need to work closely with students who may required extra support, but they know that the system saves its highest rewards for professors who spend more time in the laboratory or library than with undergraduate students,

In conclusion, perhaps the days are over at Pitt and at most other colleges and universities when discrimination against blacks, other minorities and women took blatently obvious forms.

But, and it is suttler, harder to identify and harder to remedy forms, remains deeply imbedded in the structures within which we work and live.

Change of the magnitude required will take much greater effort and resources than Pitt has yet shown itself willing to commit.

Thank you.

I would suggest that perhaps Professor Sizemore might go next and then Professor Brutus.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Fine. DR. SIZEMORE: Thank you very much for holding

these hearings, which direct the Committee to assess the success of efforts to promote racial integration and nondiscrimination within colleges and universities which


receive direct institutional appropriations from the General Assembly.

I have submitted to you a list of documents of which I use as reference for this history I want to give you of the effort to improve the numbers of black students and faculty on this campus.

I was hired as a visiting associate professor in September 1977,and tenured in 1980 in the Department of Black Community Education, Research and Development, commonly called Black Studies„here at the University of Pittsburgh.

On May the 31st, 1980, the first university and community conference was held at the Margaret Maliance (phonetic) Middle School to discuss equality at Pitt and to consider plans for the eighties.

Attached I have given you a report of that conference. Nothing of substance occurred as a result. In fact, more questions were raised than answered.

One of the questions concerned the difficulty which existed when anyone tried to get figures about the black presence, either student or faculty, at Pitt.

On page seven, section 4.2.2 it states, the university requirements were set around the affirmative action document published by Pitt.

It was suggested then, and I quote, serious attention must be also given to the current role of an


affirmative action officer who is cast in the role of defending the university as opposed to implementing in an advocacy role affirmative action, end of quotation.

On December the 21st, 1982, I received a copy of a memo from Jack L. Daniel to Irwin Shuman, who is the dean of CAS—and I have attached a copy of this memo for you—about black College of Arts and Sciences, a topic of which much had been discussed among black faculty.

Its central message was, since 1969, we have had essentially the same policy and practice with regard to recruiting, enrolling and graduating black CAS students.

For the past thirteen years, most black CAS students enter CAS by way of UCEP, this is the University Community Educational Program for nontraditional admits.

The actual percentages of black CAS students admitted through UCEP range from more than ninety percent to never less than fifty percent.

UCEP, therefore, has been the primary CAS black student affirmative action mechanism for more than a decade.

Daniel was pleading for a change in policy to, one, make more money available for CAS black recruits in order to be more competitive with other universities seeking the same students.

Two, improve the services in UCEP to improve the

graduation rate, which at that time was thirty-five percent.


And, three, improve the numbers of black majoring in science, computer science, economics, english, geology, linquistics, and statistics.

A committee was formed resulting in a series ■ of recommendations and culmonated by a conference on black student retention at William Pitt (word inaudible), on February 1st and 2nd, 1985.

During this time, the University of Pittsburgh was undergoing an extensive planning process for a change. The process was intended to be a bottom up plan of operation, with assessments and recommendations starting with the unit and submitted to the dean who in turn, examined assessments and recommendations and submitted it to his superior,the Provost.

A massive document was the result. It was called the University Plan, 1985 to 1990. Equipoise, a group of black faculty and staff submitted a response to it.

I have included that for you. In it, Equipoise appointed the university planning documents reaffirmation of vigorous affirmation initiatives but called for the following.

One, that the Provost would appoint and chair the University Affirmative Action Committee and take an active role in insuring that creative and new affirmative action strategies were developed and implemented monitoring"


each unit and department in the university and those responsible for employee selection, salary and promotion.

Two, make resources available for implementing affirmative action objectives. And, three, require each responsibility center at Pitt to submit an affirmative action plan and budgetary decisions for the unit, should be based in part upon performance in light of the plan.

The Provost's statement on affirmative action is in this package, also. It is dated February 26, 1985.

On March 7th, 1985, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the NAACP, Pittsburgh Branch, proposed a meeting with interested faculty on the affirmative action plans for Pitt.

I have attached that letter, and another dated March 14th.

Out of these meetings with President Posvar, the NAACP and Equipoise adopted a (word inaudible) called Enhancing the Black Presence at the University of Pittsburgh, a Positive Agenda for Action, dated May 4, 1985, to which Professor Wion has referred.

It is in your package.

The plan projected five innerrelated initiatives. One, the university should strenghen accountable results oriented affirmative action policies and practices in relation to faculty, staff and students, business and

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community service contracts and the broadened exposure of students to intercultural curriculum.

Two, Pitt should affirm unequivocally the centrality and importance of the Department of Black Community Education, Research and Development, which contains the largest number and proportion of tenured black, faculty in the university.

Three, Pitt should support institutions and centers related to the black agenda by faculty inside and outside of the BCERD.

Four, Pitt should establish more effective community and university links through better funded UCEP and Office of Urban Community Services programs.

Five, it should support Equipoise with an office and administrative aid. This statement noted repeated demands for change and cited often made recommendations for affirmative action.

On page five of this plan, the following data were given. The numbers of black in university-life have not grown as all concerned would have desired.

The planning document is less than forthright when it fails to mention that there is a declining black presence at Pitt.

I won't read these figures, since the Affirmative Action Officer has already given you the new figures, and so


these are obsolete.

The consensus of opinion in these meetings, which preceded the issuance of the document prepared by the black faculty and staff group, was that the Affirmation Action Office had not served as an advocate to improve conditions.

This was stated strongly in a draft document to which the affirmative action officer responded. She attended the meeting and told the group that she would sue them f or deflamation of character or some such statement-r-I don't remember the exact words'—if 'they proceeded with such statements.

The statements were withdrawn, although some of the data could have been (word inaudible). The statement did keep the following, however, a comprehensive affirmative action policy is needed at the university which is proactive and puts the university in an advocacy stance for an integrated and a just society.

There is now need for an overall restatement of unequovicable commitment to achieving affirmative results in all phases of the university's life, curricular as well as personnel, outreach and public service, purchasing and contracting, upper management as well as entry positions, problams as well as targets of opportunity.

The Wall Street Journal, Wednesday, May 29, 198 5, published an article including the following about the

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University of Pittsburgh, on page twelve. I have included that article in your package.

The number of black graduate students at Pitt's main campus {word inaudible) fourteen percent to 520 out of a total graduate populate of 9,900, between 1978 and 1984.

Administrators blame a shrinking pool of minority students interested in graduate studies. Lloyd Bond, Professor of Psychology in LRDC here at Pitt, who is the present chairman of Equipoise is quoted as saying, that recruiting and retaining black students was a priority in the 1960's, but it isn't in the 1980's.

I quote from the paper, this reflects a general trend away from affirmative action. It is not particular to Pitt.

Richard Black, former chairman of Equipoise, now a professor at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana, because Pitt would not pay him a higher salary, is quoted as saying that some black professors cite difficulties in gaining tenure.

I quote from the paper, there is no way you can

prove someone didn't get tenure because of race, but you

challenge it, and the decision is negative. 1 It stains you when you go for another job. I

have the article in the package. During the 1984-'85 school

* year, there were sixty-one black faculty members of a total of


1,625, or 3.8 percent tenured or in the tenure stream.

There were no blacks on the faculty in business, dental medicine, general studies, the graduate school of public health, pharmacy and none at the university branch at Bradford, Titusville.

The chart that I take this data from was provided by Jack L. Daniel to the committee that was working on student retention.

The struggle for racial integration and nondiscrimination at the University of Pittsburgh goes on with little positive consequence.

At the University of Pittsburgh, there are no black women deans, vice presidents or vice provost. Black women are assistants, assistants to or directors.

At the Pitt Medical School, conditions tell the story very well. Of 1,026 faculty in the health centers during the fall term of 1984, twenty-five were black or two percent.

The assistant dean of student affairs and special projects in the School of Medicine has no faculty appointment in that school and no tenure in her faculty appointment in the School of Nursing, although she was elected to the American Academy of Nursing in August 1984.

Moreover, in a booklet entitled, University of Pittsburgh Minority Opportunities in Graduate Study, written


by a white female administrator, this black female assistant dean was omitted in a listing of key black administrators at Pitt, although she was cited as a person from whom interested parties could seek more information and received a thank you note from the author for her cooperation and assistance.

I did not include this following statement in my written statement, but you asked the question of Dr. Freeman about the cooperative' activities between the

i University of Pittsburgh and the Pittsburgh public schools. I think that the University of Pittsburgh has

pursued this less vigorously in the past. Of course, when Roger Benjamin came here it was accelerated.

But just as an illustration of the insensitivity of the need for this vigorous relationship, at the meeting

1 each year Pittsburgh has a Johnstown retreat for its administrators.

; Prior to Professor Brutus' arrival I was the 1 acting chairperson of the department. I went to this meeting 1 which was last year, 1985.

At this meeting there was a panel for the ! administrators on public schools and education, the 1 relationship between the University of Pittsburgh. t The president of the Pittsburgh School Board is

» a faculty member of the University of Pittsburgh. They didn't


even invite him to be on the panel.

Actually, using 1982 statistics, affirmative action has done more for whites than blacks. At Pitt in 1982, there were 106 black full-time faculty and research-head counts, fifty-nine male, forty-seven female of a total of 2,501 or four percent, which is less than it was two years ago, which is described in a study of Constance Carol in a book called, Three is a Crowd.

In 1982 there were 581 white female faculty and research head counts of a total of 2,501, or twenty-three percent.

In truth, however, one is never certain what the head counts mean. For example, do the figures given by the affirmative action office on black student enrollment mean those who applied, were accepted and said they were coming or are they those that actually show up and attend classes or those who simply apply and are accepted?

Are there figures which tell how many black students stay the whole freshman year? I know they don't have questions—answers to the questions about graduation.

But do they know how many of them just stay past Christmas? The University of Pittsburgh is slow in addressing the needs of minorities, especially blacks.

Without pressure and political activism, nothing happens. Even with it, progress, as you can see, is slow and


uneven.

Special attention needs to be given to the recruitment, the retention and the graduation of black students and to the recruitment and tenuring of black faculty.

Thank you very much for receiving this testimony. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Thank you. Mr. Brutus? DR. BRUTUS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And my

thanks to you and to the members of the Sub-Committee for this opportunity to appear-before the Sub-Committee.

I propose to make a brief statement. It must necessarily be brief, since I have only recently assumed the position of chairman of the Department of Black Community Education, Research and Development, in fact, as of July 1st, 1986.

Because of this my expertise is necessarily limited, but I hope to improve rapidly. I look forward to continuing association with the legislative body of the State of Pennsylvania in order to put before it relevent information.

If I may restate some of the ides in your resolution, Resolution 24 3 resolves that the House of Representatives direct the Sub-Committee to investigate colleges and universities to determine the existence and

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extent of any unlawful, racial, segregation and discrimination -and that the Sub-Committee should make a report of its findings to the House of Representatives.

In my correspondence with the University of Pittsburgh prior to assuming the position of chairman, I stated my commitment to building a strong department which would serve the needs of the black community.

This continuing commitment I intend to assert even more strongly. I note, too, that the university plan declared that the university had a strong commitment to building the strength of the department.

I expect that this commitment will be vigorously supported. According to the final recommendations of the university plan, the university continues to endorse departmental staffers for black studies as a means to focus resources upon this critical contemporary spectrum of studies.

I note, however, that there are striking deficiencies at the present time, that there is considerable evidence that there is a decline of black faculty and black students at the university.

I then cite some details, Mr. Chairman. I will stand by them, but since they have appeared in the documents also submitted by Professor Sizemore and Professor Wion, I omit them, since I want to avoid repitition.


I would like, however, to supplement it with just one point based on the fresh information that was available to us as of yesterday from the Office of Affirmative Action.

It seems to me striking that of the fifteen tables that were made available, three of them, namely 3, 9 and 13, reflect an increase, either large or small, generally small, but the others, in fact, tables 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12 and 14, all reflect a decline.

That it seems to me, systematic of an unsatisfactory state of affairs where we will have to apply ourselves to remedy that situation.

Clearly, much more needs to be done in Pittsburgh and in the State of Pennsylvania. I believe that more can be achieved by conserted and coordinated efforts.

It may well be that the greatest success should be achieved by stressing and recording positive efforts that are made and successes that are achieved in this field, rather than by examining the negative aspects and!placing1emphasis on failures.

I would urge that regular annual reports be prepared and submitted, which would record advances and positive successes.

Part of the process of growth will clearly involve the Department of Black Community Education, Research and Development and the department may be expected to be a spearhead

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in future advances.

Much of this will depend on the willingness of the State and the university to commit the resources and support which will be needed to make these advances.

They - are advances which are both important and imperative. We pledge our support in working for them and look forward to the assistance and support of the legislature of the State of Pennsylvania.

I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Thank you for your testimony. Let me begin with a few questions. One can always

debate motives and the degree that one tries and (words inaudible) things like that.

We hope the numbers are a little bit more certain. With all the numbers that we are receiving today, I am beginning to question whether there is any certainty in numbers.

Do I understand that, from the faculty point of view, as expressed by the comments made by the three of you, you are telling us that in fact the percentage of black student enrollment at the university is on the decline and that in fact the percentage of black faculty enrollment at the university is on the decline, as indicated by numbers over the last several years?

DR. WION; That seems to be the case. Although in

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last year or two, especially student enrollments of blacks seemed to have bounced back a bit.

Necessarily faculty have to rely for this sort of data upon the Office of Affirmative Action and other administrative parts of the university.

It is my understanding that it has not always been easy for Equipoise and for black faculty to have tried to get more precise data to get the data.

There are difficulties, certainly, in the production of the data. We certainly recognize that. However, we would like to be more firmly assured that what data are available are made available to the faculty.

We were grateful to receive yesterday the information which the Office of Affirmative Action pulled together for this hearing and that has been presented to you.

Otherwise, we have to rely upon data that Equipoise and other groups had rather laborously put together from various sources in the past.

Those data may very well be imperfect. We have to use what we have.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I don't want to debate the numbers too long. Let me—I think even the numbers that we have received in the prior testimony, indicate that, in most cases, if not all cases, although they may be bouncing back

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over the last couple of years, were not particularly far ahead, if at all, of those numbers that are reported for 1980, for instance.

DR. WION: Exactly.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: So although we can debate whether we are ahead or behind two years, we compare the trend over five or six years, one might conclude upon glancing at this anyway that there has not been a whole lot of progress, which leads to my next question.

We have heard about various kinds of programs intended to enhance student minority enrollment, minority student enrollment, minority faculty employment at the university.

In your judgment, are these things not very effective, are they not seriously implemented, are they not adequately funded?

Do some work, some don't work? It is an open ended question. What are your observations?

DR. SIZEMORE: I have been working on the committee for the retention of black students. This committee was chaired by Jack L. Daniel, associate provost, and culminated in this conference about which I told you in my statement.

There is a learning skill center here at the University of Pittsburgh which was described by Dr. Bishop (word inaudible) in her- statement.


This learning skill center does help students to acquire the skills that they need if they are properly identified.

However, I am not sure there has been or are there plans for an assessment of how many students this skill center reaches and whether or not it reaches the students which it should reach.

There is a UCEP program which is for nontraditional admits. About 250 fed 300 students are in this program every year.

1 don't remember the exact numbers, but I have them there in your package for you. They have programs in UCEP for teaching these students, like calculus and biological sciences and things like that.

They have tutors in this program for these students to use. Their graduation rate is only thirty-five percent, which for me speaks to the ineffectiveness of these programs.

That is the way I look at it. I am not sure the university looks at it in that way. The director, the previous director of the program, Dr. Joel Reed, had somewhat the same feelings, that the program could be more effective.

One of the problems was that the university never increased the funding for it. There was $650,000 for it and that was it.


The other problem with the program was that because

} the university was ineffective in recruiting traditional

black CAS students, that is regular admits, it would take the

t top off of UCEP and use the highest ranking UCEP students as a part of their CAS.

They would call them CAS students. I have an

r analysis there in the package of these students to show you how close the SAT scores and grade scores of these students are, that the bottom of the black CAS admits was closer to the UCEP than to the regular white admits, which leads credence to the beliefs that that is what admissions was really doing.

> This policy was questioned by Jack Daniel. So

; what the university did was it asked people to volunteer to come to a phone back.

I went five nights one week. We called black ; students to try to get them to come to the University of

Pittsburgh instead of to other places. One of the big problems that I felt surrounded

that was that the University of Pittsburgh was not prepared to compete with other universities financial packages for these students, so naturally the students would go to school where there was the best financial package and would not opt for the University of Pittsburgh.

So what the committee recommended was that the university increase the money. They wanted to take the money


away from UCEP. • What we were recommending was that they increase

the money for recruiting black CAS students.

However, what I find, as a practicing professor in the Black Studies Department, students come to me with problems which do not always center around the inability of the student, that is not having the proper background or training to be successful in a pursuit, let's say Algebra III or college Algebra, whatever, but that the professors are unable to take the (word inaudible) baggage of these learners and plug it into the discipline.

They don't know how to do that. As an example, one student came to me, he said, look I can't—I am going to fail—this is Algebra—because I don't understand negative numbers and '(word inaudible) .

I said to him, I said, what is it about negative numbers that you don't understand. He said, I just can't get it.

He said, I have had the thermometer and I have had all those examples. Dr. Sizemore, I don't understand it and I want to drop it.

I am coming to you because I promised you I wouldn't drop mathematics. So I said, look, what do you understand about numbers? What kind of numbers do you feel you understand best?


He said, well, I understand dollars and cents. I said, well, fine. I said, do you have any money? He said, no.

I said, well, look, I am going to give you five dollars and I am going to loan it to you and I gave him the five dollars.

Now, I said, how much do you have? He said, I have got five dollars. I said,-no, you don't, that is my five dollars.

So, he said, well, I don't have any money. I said, you are worse than that. You have got to go get five dollars and pay me back before you get back to nothing.

He said, that is what you mean by negative numbers? I said, right. This kid went on and got passed this hump and went on with his work.

The professors don't know how to take the principals of the discipline they are teaching and use the experience that these students have and make them understand what they are doing.

The students go to a tutor who sometimes doesn't know what the professor is teaching or they don't talk to each other, and then the tutor teaches the student another way to look at it, which may not always be compatible with what the professor is presenting, which compounds the problem.


It is a very complex problem around this that is not always—and I don't want to belittle the problem of remediation, because it certainly exists and I don't want this Committee to think that I am saying, none of these black students need remediation.

That is not what I am saying. But I am saying that some of these black students are not in that class, but their experience is so different that when they come into the classroom, this experience needs to be understood and used in the learning experience and professors don't know how to do it.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I have more questions. You spoke about faculty being involved with the recruitment, at least on the telephone bank.

To what extent are black faculty members at Pitt utilized and to what extent are they available to really work with black students in our elementary schools and our secondary schools where we have heard with great regularity there is a need to reach out and begin to influence attitudes of young people in the families at those early ages, rather than to maybe call a kid who is graduating from high school next week or last week and say, how about coming to Pitt instead of going down the street to one of the other institutions.

To what extent is the faculty involved with that


kind of early effort?

DR. SIZEMORE: I can only speak for my department

unfortunately. In my department we are involved all the

time.

Dr. Vernel Lilly (phonetic) works with St.

Benedict (word inaudible) School. I work with the public

schools.

I think people on the school of education, black

faculty on the school of education, are involved. I know

one there is involved in the Clariton Schools.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Does all of that represent—

DR. SIZEMORE: But let me tell you—

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me ask so I understand. Does

that represent an organized program or a plan of action by

the university?

DR. SIZEMORE: No.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Who took the initiative?

DR. SIZEMORE: The faculty member.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay.

DR. SIZEMORE: But let me tell you something that

I find very interesting, Representative. The Pittsburgh

public schools, since 1978 have been upgrading their quality

of educational programs in the elementary schools.

I was funded by NIE, National Institute of

Education in 1979-'80 school year to study three high


achieving elementary schools in the Pittsburgh public schools.

There were twenty-one schools that were seventy-five percent black or more during that school year, 1979-1980 and only five of them were fifty-one percent or more of the student body achieved at or above the national norms in reading and mathematics on the MAT which was a test they were giving at that time.

Since that time, the sixteen schools that now exist that are seventy-five percent black or more, there is only one school where less than fifty-one percent of the students at or above the national normal.

They give the CAT now. Alderdice (phonetic) was one of the top ten public high schools in the nation this past year.

I mean—what—the schools are getting better and Pitt is doing worse. It doesn't make sense to me. I am alarmed about this continuing statement that the Pittsburgh public schools get better.

Representative, McCelvy (phonetic) which is at the lower end of the public housing which is called Bedford Dwellings, the white side road into the—at the McCelvy School, which is a 100 percent black school--no, I think it is 98.9 or something like that or maybe 100 percent black school—eighty-three percent of the students achieved ,


at or above the national norm in mathematics on the CAT in

1985.

The schools are getting better.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me ask about the retention

issue. We talked a little bit about it. Frankly, I am

amazed and disturbed that university officials would come

to this hearing unable to tell us how many students who were

admitted in year "X" graduate in year "Y:"'

That reinforces an impression, anyway, that so

many of our institutions have in fact been guilty of

concentrating on numbers at the front end without adequate

concern for what happens with the student during the education

process, or what happens with the student ultimately.

That is an impression that is left anyway. You

don't have those numbers, either. I would not expect faculty

members to have those numbers, but I think you can help us

with another question.

DR. SIZEMORE: You do have those numbers for UCEP,

Representative.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. That is in your package

here, I think you indicated.

DR. SIZEMORE: Yes.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Right. But you can help us with

something else that is just as important as the raw numbers.

In your experience why do students drop out?


Why don't they maintain their enrollment? Why do we lose them early or later in the process? What do you hear from students?

DR. SIZEMORE: My guess is that the reasons are very complex. But one overriding reason is finance. It is an overriding reason.

You have got a letter in there from Mrs. Catherine Wells of Philadelphia whose daughter was accepted as a UCEP student and who was here without housing, without books, for two or three weeks.

This mother had done everything that she could to contact the university and seek a resolution of these problems over the telephone.

Yet, this student was left here without resources. It was finally resolved by Drl Daniel. But it is an illustration of that problem.

It is in your pack, a letter from Miss Wells. A second reason is that students come to Pittsburgh and they don't feel comfortable here, so when they go home for Christmas, they just don't come back.

That is the second reason. When I say, feel comfortable here, I mean the social network doesn't satisfy their perceived needs.

They feel isolated or not belonging or whatever. Let me give you an example of that. I had a student who was

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of West Indian extraction and she—that is where her ̂ family-was from. I think it was St. Kits.

She lived in New York City. She just told me, it is lonely here. I don't have anybody I know. So I tried to put her in touch with the Carribean Association so that she could make some friends.

I tried to seek out other West Indian students that I had from Jamica, Trinidad and so forth to try to get her in a group where she would feel comfortable and at home.

That is the second reason. The third is academic. Now, I get a lot of these problems because students perceive that I can help them.

They come to me because they feel that they are failing and they don't know what to do about it. If I can't resolve their problems or I can't find anybody to help them, then when I come back in January they are gone.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Anything to add to that question? DR. WION: I would just like to comment that

though clearly our focus today has to be on minority students and faculty, particularly blacks, the problem of student retention is a general one at Pitt.

The white student retention rate, although I am not sure what it is, is not as good as it ought to be either. It has to do with the size of the place, with the perceived


bureaucracy, the difficulty of finding your way around, getting things done.

Financial problems are distinctly behind a lot of people's dropping out. What I was suggesting about the pressure on faculty, however, in respect to undergraduate education, I think are relevant, too.

Faculty know very well what pays and what doesn't. Taking the kind of time and energy that Professor Sizemore was describing, to sit down with a student in trouble is not going to get you tenure, it is not going to get you a promotion, it is not going to get you a raise.

It is going to keep you from doing the things that will get you rewards. The former dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, a colleague of mine in the English Department, Professor Robert Marshall, worked very hard during his tenure as deanship to try to wake up the university to the need for putting a much higher priority on undergraduate education.

He resigned in great frustration at his inability to make the kind of changes he saw needed to be made.

CHAIRMAN COWELL; The final question I have is with respect to the OCR plan. As you see it anyway, is the faculty actively and usefully involved, or was it involved, first of all, with the preparation of the plan as relates ;to Pitt?


1 And, secondly, does the faculty remain involved

2 with respect to the implementation of the plan and those 3 commitments found in the plan for the University of

4 Pittsburgh? 5 DR.- SIZEMORE: I don't know the answer to that. 6 DR. WION: Nor, do I. 7 CHAIRMAN COWELL: Chaka Fattah? 8 REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Thank you. 9 Dr. Sizemore, you have been here for how long?

0 DR. SIZEMORE:' Since 1977. The first year I was a

1 visiting associate' professor." 2 REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Okay. I am disturbed 3 and somewhat confused, I guess. We were just out at Penn 4 State, out at University Park and we have been to various 5 other campuses over the last couple of years on a variety of 5 issues, 7 One of the things that we always hear is that it is 8 difficult to recruit black faculty and black students to 9 rural locations that a"re kind of dislocated from urban areas 3 where blacks are more comfortable and so on. 1 I am disturbed and confused as to—in understanding 2 that thought, why the University of Pittsburgh, which is 5 situated here in Pittsburgh, 175,000 black people are in this * general metropolitan area, why this university has similar 5 difficulties that are experienced at in isolated locations


like Penn State.

How is Penn State or Millersville or Shippensburg recruit and retain and so on {words inaudible) for those problems and here this is a major urban setting and you are faced with the same kind of—at least that is what I have heard.

I am just concerned about that. DR. SIZEMORE: Well, my opinion is that the

University of Pittsburgh does not vigorously pursue the goal of recruiting regular black CAS students or black faculty.

Wot until Roger Benjamin came here did I know the difference. Of course, he is gone. So I guess we will revert to business as usual.

I am not sure about that. But at any rate, during the brief time that he was here, there was an emphasis placed on the recruitment of black faculty.

I heard—I have no idea whether this is true. But I heard that his statement was that the faculties, the departments where there was no black faculty that they could not hire black additional faculty unless minority faculty was hired.

! I don't know that this is true. I do know that

i the Department of Economics vigorously pursued the recruitment \ of a black faculty member and I think they did hire one. i I am not sure about that.


[ REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Let me go further. The

l focus in terms of black faculty is not one that is a vacuum.

1 Most of the retention studies that have been done on black

l students suggest that there is a correlation between black

i faculty presence at a university in the retention and success

i rate of black students.

So the university should not concentrate on one

I without concentrating on the other.

i DR. SIZEMORE: Yes.

i REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: And I do get the impression

that the universities ijust fail to compete and to work hard

at competing for academically able black students, number one.

The whole issue of black faculty and black

administrators, again, it would seem that—we were at Penn

State and they said that they had a difficult time recruiting,

for instance, single people, people who were single, who were

black faculty, to Penn State because, of course, the social

isolation of its location.

Pittsburgh again, would notT I would suspect offer

that kind of problem,to single black faculty if they were

so recruited in a vigorous way.

DR. SIZEMORE: My experience is that the

University of Pittsburgh does not recruit in a vigorous way.

Let me give you two examples from my own department.

We had a seemingly competent economist who was an


i (word inaudible). His name was Tiki (phonetic) (word

■ inaudible).

t He was asking for a thousand dollar raise in

t salary from our dean. It was denied. He went to Jackson,

> Mississippi to teach school.

> We had—

f REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: For a higher salary, I guess.

I DR. SIZEMORE: Yes. We had extremely competent—

' Our loss is just not going to be replaced. We lost Richard

> Black.

Richard Black is one of the most important black : historians on the Antebellum (phonetic) period, in this

nation.

Indiana University hired him and immediately put

him in charge of the prestigeous journal of American History.

We couldn't even get $2,000 for Richard to keep him here.

I mean, you know, my experience tells me that this 1 is rhetoric you heard this morning. The University of 1 Pittsburgh, except for the brief time that Roger Benjamin

was here, has not been sincere or committed to the recruitment

of black faculty or black students and certainly not to their

retention here.even when they are competent.

There is no one who can say Richard Black is not

competent. He was a tenured professor here. You should have

seen the pitiful salary they were paying this man.


L REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: One last question, Mr.

* Chairman, then I will be finished. I CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. I REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: One of the complaints that

i I have heard from black students at various campuses from

> time to time is that some of them have difficulty in the ' classroom because many of the professors feel as though they ' are academically deficient, even though there may not be any

* evidence to suggest so.

> DR. SIZEMORE: That is true. REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Is that a problem? DR. SIZEMORE: It is an outstanding problem for

me, because the students come to me with these problems. I have a student, Monique Sims, who just won the $500 Chancelor Scholarship this year, who had such a problem.

This is a girl who has always been successful in her work, but who could not achieve success in this fall class.

She never mentioned to me that it was the professor or the professor's attitude. She always looked at it as that she was not putting enough effort in it or that she was not doing the right thing.

When I proceeded to help her, I found the professor hostile. I found the professor believing that she was inferior and couldn't do the work and had just a

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717) 761 -71 SO

wrong attitude. ! I advised her to drop the course and get out of theie i as quickly as she could before she was penalized.

i REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

' CHAIRMAN COWELL: Representative Colafella? i REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA: I think the issue is

really the percentage of black students attending higher i education, which is a little higher than where we are. 1 If you look at the University of Pittsburgh, eight 1 percent of the black students at your university are black.

What you have to also remember is that times have changed in the last ten years in this particular area.

You have a very comprehensive and dynamic community college system in this area. You have a tremendous amount of black students who are attending Allegheny Community College, which certainly affects the University of Pittsburgh.

I guess what I am saying to you is that the University of Pittsburgh can have a dynamic recruiting campaign to attract black students/ but let's face it, your tuition is probably double the community college and a student can go to a community college and pay half the tuition and have their credits transferred after two years.

I guess what I am saying to you is that I think the issue is what percentage of black students graduating from high school are attending higher education.


I think that the numbers have been increasing. I think they are increasing because you have a very dynamic, aggressive community college system that is out there really attracting students.

I am just not sure whether the University isn't really exerting great efforts to attract black students to attend higher ed, because I think it is a numbers game.

This university is in the same position as all major universities in that they have got a problem. The problem is that in the sixties, the Federal Government was giving these universities tremendous amounts of money to build buildings, to increase research, to do all kinds of things, but these moneys have decreased now.

Therefore, these institutions which have a lot of faculty members, have a lot of big departments, that they can't get students and the reason why they can't get students is because you have got a decline in the amount of kids graduating from high school and you have a community college system in this area that is working very hard and they are

1 keeping their tuition very low and it effects an institution like the University of Pittsburgh.

DR. SIZEMORE: Yes. All of that is probably 1 true, however, there are two comments I want to make. I ^ don't know what the figures are for the Community College

of Allegheny County, but nationally, the figures for the


numbers of black students who actually do transfer to four year institutions is woefully small.

I don't know what it is (words inaudible). But I suspect that it follows this national trend, although it may not.

So that those students who do go to the community college wind up with associate degrees, but not with bachelors degrees. That is first.

Second, I mentioned that I was a part of an effort to recruit regular CAS admits. These are students, black students, who have the necessary SAT score for entry and also the grade rank in high school, so that they are admitted in the same way the white students are.

What I was trying to suggest, what I believe from my experience is that Pitt is not providing the kind of financial packages to these students that competing universities provide.

That is why we are not getting them. REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA: I can't argue that

point, because I wouldn't be— DR. SIZEMORE: I don't know. I don't know what

the facts are because I don't have them. But from talking to these students, I called thirty-eight students, and from talking to these students—I didn't review my notes for this hearing—but the majority of them had better financial


packages.

REPRESENTATIVE COLAFELLA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Representative COY?

REPRESENTATIVE COY: Yes, one or two comments. I am very glad to hear what is being said. I come

from Shippensburg. To expand a little bit upon what Representative Colafella said about the community colleges, there are—you have the whole State system in this State, who are getting hammered constantly--and I say hammered in a polite way--about recruiting more black- students.

Shippensburg, for an example, I know is putting a great deal of emphasis on this. I think the point that Representative Colafella made is a good one.

You know, the numbers are dwindling from that pool to get from. You have a lot of people—and I recognize what you said about the associate degrees at the community colleges.

You have that whole State system out there in Pennsylvania that are trying to, you know, attract and attract and attract these students and the amount of them is dwindling severely from the high schools.

The other statement that I didn't—I couldn't really let go by, your statement about the inability of some faculty to be able to blend theory with practice and to—I don't want you to think that that is necessarily a black


problem or necessarily a problem that is at the University of Pittsburgh, because it is really a problem that is all over.

Some professors are better at it than others. A person who is generally as concerned as you are with the future of students, obviously will take the time to do these additional things and to go the extra mile to try to keep the student here because that is important to you.

Unfortunately, a lot of people, not just administrators, but faculty and other people alike, don't share that commitment.

It is too bad, but they just don't. DR. SIZEMORE: Well, it is like Professor Wion

said, it is not rewarded. It is not how you get tenure. It is not how you get more money.

It is jaot how you get ahead. REPRESENTATIVE COY: That is probably I think one

of the best suggestions that I heard made that they ought to try to be rewarded.

It is often very difficult to measure I suspect, as to how much you do in this area and how much—and it is difficult to put, I think—it is goal oriented.

It is difficult to put results at the end. How did you do when you did this? Did this student stay because of what you said or was this a little bit a part of it?

It is very difficult to measure. But I suspect


rewards would be nice if there was an adequate way to measure it.

DR. SIZEMORE: Also, money should be invested in these. It shouldn't have to rely on faculty volunteers to do this work.

I volunteered to make these calls. We shouldn't have to depend on that. I volunteered to write proposals for UCEP in the improvement of the quality of the program over there with the director.

The director should have been given moneys to do this. I shouldn't have had to volunteer. And I am not complaining.

I like my work. But the point is that you shouldn't rely on volunteers to do something that is important. I kind of use that as my tool for assessing the commitment of the university.

Whatever the university is not committed to do it relegates to volunteers.

REPRESENTATIVE COY: The subject of salary of professors is another area, and I really don't have the statistics in front of me.

But I can tell you that, especially as compared to the State System of Higher Education, the salaries that your faculty are paid here are probably over and above that measurably.


I would suspect that there are many people in similar State funded universities who would share a concern about, you know, the ability to pay in those numbers.

DR. WION: Could I Respond to that just very briefly? One of the things about salaries at Pitt is, first, they are secret, so that no one knows except in gross averages.

The gross averages are distorted in many ways. The salaries of a new assistant professor in the School of Business, you can't hire anybody for less than $4 5,000 a year, maybe it is forty.

In the English Department, a new assistant professor isn't getting $40,000. A full professor may not be getting $40,000.

i

So it is very difficult, especially in the absence of breakdowns of salary figures to make a kind of

judgment that you are suggesting. REPRESENTATIVE COY: That is precisely the

information—the point that I was trying to make, because the business department, for example, at Shippensburg University which is one of the—the only part of the State system which is accredited by the National Business Association—I forget the exact name of it.

They share the same problem of being able to pay a salary which is competitive with private business.


That is what I am saying, it is not a problem that is—at least, I would be surprised if it is a problem that is singular to the University of Pittsburgh.

It is a problem throughout the rest of the State schools and State supported schools.

DR. WION: However, the individuals who left because an extra thousand dollars or so couldn't be found, that is—

REPRESENTATIVE COY: I am sure there are instances like that which decisions could have been made to keep those if there were a way.

DR. SIZEMORE: Well, my thought was that Pitt's objective or goal, as I understood it, was to be a number one university, to promote scholarships.

In fact one of the things that the planning (word inaudible) said to my department was increase the scholarship in the department.

So here we have one of the nation's scholars in his area and they wouldn't give him a couple more thousand dollars to stay here.

So it seemed to me like a contradiction. The other point I was trying to make was not that they increase my salary, but that they hire people to do these jobs that they think are important, like calling on the telephone.

That was my other point.


REPRESENTATIVE COY: Instead of depending on volunteers?

DR. SIZEMORE: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE COY: All right. Thank you very much.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Are there any other questions? Representative Stairs?

REPRESENTATIVE STAIRS: Take Mr. Davies. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Representative Davies? REPRESENTATIVE STAIRS: He is the senior member.

REPRESENTATIVE DAIVES: Not to throw cold water on it, but those increased scores they were talking about in those schools, you are not seeing the reflection of that yet (word inaudible) in the SAT scores; are you?

You have that age gap where you have seen that improvement. You are not seeing that in the potential, even this year or possibly the next year in cumulative SAT scores for people that qualify (words inaudible).

DR. SIZEMORE: You are seeing it at Alder (word inaudible). You are seeing it at the International Studies IB program in the Schinley High School.

You are seeing it at—I'm sorry, Representative, I have forgotten the third place. Not overall in the system, yet, but it is spotty.

You are seeing it in spots. The argument that


was given this morning about the Commonwealth improving the education at the elementary and secondary level is very important.

I second all of that, the only point I was trying to make to the Committee is that Pittsburgh is doing that.

You see this improvement in the elementary schools now. These kids are coming up, so Pittsburgh is doing this. It seems to me that the university could reach out its hand to the system that is already doing this and help them in the development of these.and certainly do more effective recruiting at the high school (words inaudible) this evidence is now presenting itself.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: And that thirty-five percent figure that you used, that was a university figure?

DR. SIZEMORE: That- is from the UCEP program. REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: Okay.

DR. SIZEMORE: You have it in the package there. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Jess Stairs? REPRESENTATIVE STAIRS: Yes, one last question. The jest of your testimony and Lloyd Bond was

quoted as saying that recruiting and retaining was down compared to sixties, compared to eighties, in a broad competition with other schools and financial problems and a number of other problems.


I think you said you were since 1977.

DR. SIZEMORE: Yes.

REPRESENTATIVE STAIRS: Comparing that year with '86f the ten years approximately, do you find the black high school students graduating from high school—and I realize there is obstacles that he or she has that we mentioned—do you think the desire is a great day for those students to go to college as it was ten years or is it greater today?

DR. SIZEMORE: Yes. I think it is greater today. I think that there is a difference, though. I think the students coming in—black students coming into the university now are more career oriented.^

They are more interested in careers like business, law, you know, than they were before. When I first came here, most of my.students were interested in psychology, sociology, social work.

Maybe most of them still are. But I see a difference in my students now in their career orientation.

REPRESENTATIVE STAIRS: Maybe that is a frustration, though, in retention, that they are not meeting and have different goals now and maybe we have not changed our ways to meet those goals.

There is a lot more frustration than there was then. DR. SIZEMORE: Absolutely, That is what I try to

tell my students. The university has changed since I have been


here.

Now, calculus is the intellectual gate keeper. Those who take calculus and pass calculus, go on in the high tech arts,sciences, medicine, whatever, and those who don't take calculus are fairly—they are locked into service, whatever.

I try to keep my students in mathematics. That is one of the things I fight to do here. I try to tell all my students, if you get in trouble with mathematics, before you quit, come and see me.

(Words inaudible) will try to help you get help or whatever. I tutor students every summer. I teach algebra to black students in fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade to try and build a strong algebra knowledge in students that I know that I can help.

My middle school where my children go to school, (words inaudible) Middle School—when I first married my husband in '79, there were no pre algebra classes in that school.

It was an all black school. It has since been integrated. It is now about sixty-five, sixty-eight percent black.

But now there are like five classes of pre-algebra in this school, it is—like you said, it is something that you have to teach students that things have changed and


1 that the emphasis of education has 'changed and also parents

2 have to be told,so they can keep their students in mathematics. 3 REPRESENTATIVE STAIRS: Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN COWELL: Representative Fattah? 5 REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: I just want to make a 6 comment on my good colleague here, Representative Colafella 7 raised 'Some points and Representative Coy raised some points. 8 I just want to, just for the record, to make a 9 cuupie uf statements. One is that Shippensburg University LO 'which, is in your district, I am aware of maybe" significant Ll vigorous efforts that I am personally aware-of in terms of 12 'recruiting black faculty, especially from the Philadelphia-I *i

area',and offering them great enducements to come there. Community colleges do serve an important role in

L5 the Commonwealth's System of Higher Education. However, [6 they are not competitors to a major research university like L7 the University of Pittsburgh. L8 It is at the University of Pittsburgh where we L9 help support the robotics laboratory and (word inaudible) M clinic and so on. 11 There are things that this university can offer ■2 students that no community college will ever be able to !3 offer. -24 Black Pennsylvanians, black high school students 15 when making their choices about higher education need to have


this kind of opportunity available to them.

It is incumbent upon this university to do all it can do to recruit them. You can't get a graduate degree in engineering at the Allegheny Community College.

But let me say one thing about the community college here. It has arrived at an articulation agreement with Cheyney to help transfer black students from the community college here to Cheyney.

It would seem to me that the University of Pittsburgh should be working on a similiar agreement with the Allegheny Community College so when those students do complete their two years of study there that nob only would they have the option of Cheyney, but they would also have an option, a clear option, to come here to the University of Pittsburgh and study and get their undergraduate and hopefully graduate degrees.

So I just wanted to add that to the -record. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Professor Brutus, you had a

comment?

DR. BRUTUS: Yes. DR. SIZEMORE: Representative, before, I made a

mistake. I have a Chancelor (word inaudible) Monique Sims. That is not the one I was talking about.

I was talking about Karen Newton (phonetic) then.


I used her name because she is in my mind now. I would like to change that name from Monique Sims to Karen Newton.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. DR. BRUTUS: Mr. Chairman, I thought if you might just

permit me to make a couple quick points in reference to some of the questions that have been asked, starting with your own one and just taking up two others.

I think our problem is one of the accessibility of data and that hopefully will change. But I have to say bluntly that on the basis of the evidence before us and the fifteen tables submitted, the weight of the evidence is very clearly on the side of a decline.

We may want to look at the raw figures and reassess them. But at first glance, the evidence from fifteen tables is that where three indicated an improvement or increase, twelve represent a clear decline.

I think that must weigh against the university. I also think that all other things being equal, a bright black student given the opportunity of going to a community college or coming to Pitt, would choose Pitt.

I think that Pittiis an enormous attracting and prestige and indeed this is where they might get a graduate degree.

So the choice should be, all things being equal, it would be the University of Pittsburgh. What I think is

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7 IT) 761 -71 50

unequal is that whereas the community colleges are pursuing dynamic and aggressive programs to attract students, I think there is much more that could be done at this university.

Finally, it seems to me that the goals as submitted in a table which was given to us in supplementary information, table 3, that those goals are for future enrollment of black students, seem to me sadly unambitious and one of the things that I will do as the new chairman of the department is to urge a revision upwards of those figures, so that we shoot for something in the region of ten percent as goals each year.

This would apply both to graduate and undergraduate students. I am glad to go on record as saying that—and I am supporting something said by Dr. Sizeman, that the encouragement I got from Roger Benjamin in the brief time he was here, gave me the hope that there would be a vigorous program for an increase in black student recruitment and black faculty recruitment.

I am presuming that those commitments will stand.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Representative Davies?

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: One comment on that. I think also there ought to be some {word inaudible) as the SAT scores increase {word inaudible) for example, the surrounding public schools ought to be an additional effort too, in recruiting, or some correlation.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Are there any further questions?


1 Thank you very much for your testimony.

2 (Witnesses 'excused.) 3 CHAIRMAN COWELL: Our next scheduled witness, but 4 what started out as a morning schedule, is Dr. Jack Kraft, 5 President, Community College of Allegheny County.

6 Whereupon,

7 JACK KRAFT and BOYD PURIER (phonetic) 8 having been called, testified as follows:

9 DIRECT TESTIMONY LO DR. KRAFT: Thank you very much. I first would like tl to introduce the other gentleman with me. He is Mr. Boyd ■2' Purier. 3 At the Community College of Allegheny County at 4 each of our four campuses, we do have someone designated as 5 an affirmative action officer. 6 Out of our central office, we have Mr. Purier as '7 the person who tends to all matters having to 'do with 18 affirmative action and among his other duties, he is attached L9 to our personnel office, but he is the chief author or !0 editor, if you will, of our plan for equal opportunity. 11 He is here with me this morning to help in !2 answering any questions you might have. I do have a prepared !3 statement that I think has been pased out to the members of !4 the Committee. B I would just tell you that I referred to that plan


for equal opportunity. Most of my statements are really based on information contained in that.

It is my understanding you do have that. If you don't we will try to get copies for you.

The Community College of Allegheny County welcomes the opportunity to bring you up to date on the progress being made towards the accomplishment and maintenance of our affirmative action goals.

We consider these goals to be an important element of our mission as a community college. They incorporate our commitment of practicing nondiscrimination.

As further evidence I would tell you paraenthically that we have goals in the area of employment as well as in the area of purchasing.

However, my remarks today will pertain only to those goals which are student related. You are probably aware that the college does not use entrance examinations to admit students and that we maintain a support system to help each .student to grow and develop and to attempt to reach his or her potential.

These are common elements of what makes our affirmative action activities an actual part of the mission and practice of the Community College of Allegheny County.

Just a little bit of brief history. We are going into our twenty-first year of operation. We started in

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1966 in just two locations offering classes at Gateway High School in Monroeville where now we have our Boyce Campus and in 1966 what we now know as the Allegheny Campus on the North Side of Pittsburgh.

In our twenty years we have grown to an institution serving approximately 80,000 Allegheny County residents a year at four campuses, two major centers in Braddock and Homewood-Brushton and approximately 200 other sites throughout the county, such as schools, churches, fire halls, hospitals and businesses.

We are the largest community college in Pennsylvania. We have the second largest enrollment of any college or university in Western Pennsylvania.

You are probably aware that the student population at our community college is quite different from that which has historically been thought of as the traditional college student.

The majority of our students are not eighteen to twenty-two years of age. They are not going to college away from home.

They are not studying full-time and living in a dormatory or some other housing in a college town. The average age of the. students at the community college is close to twenty-nine. Approximately sixty-five percent are studying part-time, taking anywhere from three to eleven credits.


Our students are different from the traditional college student also in their educational goals. Some attend classes at the community college to update skills already developed or to gain new skills that will enhance their career potential.

Many of them enroll in programs designed to be one year in length. Many have in mind the accomplishment of an associate degree in a technical program that will permit them to enter the job market immediately upon graduation.

After they have been with us for a while, some of them realize that their personal objectives will be better served if they continue their education to the baccalaureate level and beyond.

The vast majority of our students are residents of Allegheny County. Of those who do continue their education, 82.5 percent remain at local colleges and universities, that is, in Allegheny County.

14.5 percent go to other places in Pennsylvania. Three percent leave the State.

Our board of trustees joined the efforts of the minority affairs assembly of the Association of Community College Trustees in an effort to increase transfers of blacks and other minorities to four-year colleges.

This program is sometimes called the two plus two college experience. At CCAC, we call it the university


L parallel program.

! (Changing from Tape 2 to Tape 3.) t DR. KRAFT: V7e are working with the four-year

t institutions in the Pittsburgh area to insure an easy • transfer of our students after they have completed the first > two years.

In keeping with this Committee's interest CCAC

> signed specific articulation agreements last November with 1 both Cheyney and Lincoln Universities. 1 Under these agreements, students in our university

parallel program are eligible to enroll in bachelor degree programs at Cheyney and Lincoln and receive full value for the credits that they earn at the community college.

While it remains a fact that most of our transfer graduates attend four-year college and universities close to home, we hope these efforts will result in some CCAC graduates attending those universities.

Transfer counselors at all the campuses are working to promote the intent of the agreements. They discuss the possibilities with students they counsel and offer literature on Cheyney and Lincoln.

Both universities are invited to send representatives to the transfer orientation sessions held at the campuses. The transfer orientation workshops are well attended by x»ur students and these efforts should help support the agreements.

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY <7i7> 76i-7iso

CCAC continues to maintain the longstanding commitment we have to equal opportunity for the county's black population and we continue to search for new ways to further our commitment.

Again in keeping with those goals, the college last convened minority recruitment,retention and transfer task force to focus on Allegheny County's black population.

This task force draws members from all of the campuses, the Braddock center and the Homewood-Brushton center.

The committee is searching for additional ways to improve the services we provide. A report'-: generated by this committee will be included with next year's annual report on our plan for equal opportunity.

Assuring access to higher education for Allegheny County residents is accorded ample attention at our college and I am pleased to say we have met with some success.

However, I hasten to add that we are not satisfied that we cannot do more. Our overall enrollment goal reflects the percentage of the Allegheny County population that is comprised of black residents.

In a 1980 census, that was 10.4 percent of the population. When we constructed the current five-year plan for egual opportunity in 1983, we were able to report spring


semister enrollments of black students that year represented

10.6 percent of the total student population to college.

Our recruitment efforts improved that percentage by the spring semister, 1984, to 11.4 percent, maintained that through the spring of '85.

The spring of '86, black students represented 11.1 percent of the total student population. These numbers indicate that equity has been achieved and the college is committed to maintaining equity and improving on it.

Let me give you some examples of activities the college has undertaken to affirm this commitment. During the '85-'86 year, admissions officers at four campuses have made recruitment visits to public and perochial schools in the service areas.

They work with guidance counselors to identify black students in order to arrange interviews with them for campus based recruitment teams of black staff members.

Recruitment advertising is placed in local newspapers and on radio stations which have a high proportion of black subscribers and listeners.

Admissions offices and officers and black staff faculty and alumni provide outreach activities with churches, community agencies and organizations that service predominently citizens.

We continue to refine and develop program offerings


at the Homewood-Brushton and Braddock centers which are in service areas where the black population is large.

Other examples include the work being done to develop an omnibus articulation agreement with the Pittsburgh public schools for the purpose of increasing the number of Pittsburgh public school graduate who continue their education at the community college.

All of the campuses have active black student organizations. Just one example can be found at out South campus in West Mifflin where the student organization known as the Black League of Afro American Culture has sponsored a black high school students day to familiarize perspective students with the campus.

Of concern to us and perhaps more difficult to solve is the problem of retaining students after they are enrolled.

The college has implemented some strategies to oversome this problem and we hope to improve our response in the coming year.

For example, counselors consult each semister with minority students to assess their academic progress and offer assistance throughout the semister.

Computerized monitoring of grade point averages permits counselors to make followup mail and telephone contacts with students whose averages fall below the 2.0 during


the semister.

Financial aid workshops help minority students 1 to understand the regulations, filing deadlines and implications

of receiving aid.

These are some of the formal responses we have developed to improve retention among our black students and we hope to be doing more during the coming year.

Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, over the years, our college has planned and implemented various strategies to assure equitable access to higher education for the residents of Allegheny County.

Our goals for the most part have reflected the racial makeup of Allegheny County and we have maintained or surpassed these goals.

Our ultimate goal is to provide access to higher education for every person in Allegheny County who can take advantage of the opportunity.

When this requires special efforts to satisfy the needs of minorities, we will continue to expend these efforts.

We thank you for the opportunity to offer this report. I hope it is helpful to your objectives and we will certainly try to answer any questions you may have.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Thank you, Jack. A couple of questions.

On page four of your '̂ prepared remarks you indicate


that 82.5 percent of those who continue their education remain at institutions in Allegheny County.

Do you have a number with respect to the percentage of black students who remain closer to home? We had a discussion earlier about whether kids stay at Pitt or go somewhere else.

Do you have that kind of number?

DR. KRAFT: I am not sure that we—I think we have that number broken out.

Do we, Boyd? MR. PURIER: We really don't have it broken out

by race and sex. But we do know that the general profile of our black students resembles the profile of our typical students in transfer.

We are talking here about our graduates that are transferring. We do have another profile of those—as we are required on the OCR reports, we have to measure the retention rate of full-time, first-time students each fall semister.

We do know that a large percentage of our black students who don't return to the community college transfer to other institutions of higher education.

We are looking at approximately twenty-eight percent of our blacks who don't return to community—who didn't return to the community college in the fall of '85 transferred to


other institutions of higher ed.

Of those twenty-eight percent, we are looking at three-fourths of them staying within Allegheny County. But we don't have that breakdown in terms of University of Pittsburgh by race or any other of the local institutions by race.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. Do you have pretty thorough retention information in terms of what happens with students once they are admitted to the community college?

DR. KRAFT: We have, I think, what might be—if it is an adequate description—state of the art retention kind of figures, interpreting them and knowing what they mean and refining them and really trying to learn from the information generated is a little more difficult.

I have heard various figures quoted about how long it takes to get a bachelor's degree, for example. One of the problems we have is when we try to analyze our figures, longitudinal studies are hard to come by.

We don't think it is at all fair to count the number of people who come in any given fall semister and then see two years later how many people have been graduated or what percentage of them have been graduated, because such a high percentage of our students start out being part-time.

That is one factor for example. Another factor is that many of them come just for a course. Many of them come

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY 1717) 761-7150

for perhaps one of our one-year programs.

We have numerous one-year programs. So that the traditional method for measuring what happens to incoming students and using that as a success measure, I think we still have some difficulty with that.

We do try to track our students every year. We do a followup survey of our graduates to find out where they are.

We do do the kind of survey that Boyd talked about a moment ago here, where, in this case we are talking about the students who were first-time entering, actually because of the OCR reporting procedures, spring of '84, I believe, to spring of '85, we know how many of them have come back.

We know how many of those students have transferred or found jobs, that sort of thing.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Can you give me some sense of how many of those, I guess, reflect information in your OCR response?

MR. BOYD: Yes. I think in our survey as required by OCR, has helped us to pinpdint some very interesting facts. Again, we are just talking about first-time, first semister, full-time students.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I understand that, MR. BOYD: Okay. As Dr. Kraft pointed out, many of

our students return after a break of a year or two years. A

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lot of folks have taken courses before with us and are returning.

But we do know, for example, that for our white students that don't return, the principal reasons are that they transferred to another institution of higher education, or a proprietary school or they were offered a job.

We know that the principal reasons that our black students don't return are academic failure, personal and financial aid. The big three.

So with that date, we did convene a minority retention recruitment and transfer task force to look at that data and to recommend ways to really come to grips with it.

When we first were required to become a part of the State's desecregation plan efforts, we were asked to respond to the format that you are well-aware of, that basically is for four-year liberal arts institutions.

We had some major problems trying to adjust to the kinds of responses that we were required to present. What we found was that much of the stuff that we said in our plan, we really were not able to give full thought to.

But as a result of that participation, and as a result of convening that task force, we are looking at some really head on issues that I think will have an impact upon our retention rate.

But again, if you look at our reports, if you look

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at what happened in '85-'86, you will see that we have actually decreased the attrition rate of black students or increased the retention rate of black students by ten percent.

If you would ask us, what did we do right, we would say, we really don't know. But hopefully within the next two or three years, we will have a better idea of what we did right from '84 to '85, from '85 to '86.

We don't know why we were able to reduce that retention rate right now.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: What were the rates for those two years?

MR. BOYD: The rates in--the rate in the fall— measuring those students who didn't return from the fall of ) 83 to the fall of '84, the retention rate was approximately sixty-six percent of our first-time full-time black students who did not return the following fall.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Two-thirds of the students did not come back.

MR. BOYD: Two-thirds of those students did not come back. But again, what you have to look at, nobody asked, are you here to come back next year or what are your goals by taking courses here.

Our students don't come here to complete an associate degree program for the most part. Many do, many don't.


But when we measure the retention rates from '84 to '85r that rate was reduced to fifty-seven percent. Again, you know, a sizeable portion of that—of that percentage left for financial difficulties, were offered a job.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Is there an effort being made— we deal with a lot of unknowns. We could deal with that forever, I guess and go through a couple more years of hearings I suspect and we won't learn anything more.

Is there an effort being made at community college to learn from that sixty-six percent or the fifty-seven percent, learn why they didn't come back.

Was it just in their plans or was there some intervening personal factor or was it a matter of student aid or did they transfer to another institution?

Is there an organized effort made to get a better handle on that very important question?

DR. KRAFT: Yes, there has been. This is an area where I think we have learned something. I think it conceivably has implications for the Commonwealth and any public policy that may come from Harrisburg.

The biggest reasons given when we ask black students why aren't you returning, turned out to be, I think in reverse, or financial aid, personal and academic.

At least two of three it seems to me, there are some things that could be done and maybe just more of the

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7t7) 761-7150

same that could be done.

I am not so sure we can attack that personal category quite as well. But obviously if blacks are reporting more difficulty with academics than whites, that has at least as part of the potential solution there, we do step up the remediation efforts and the kind of things we can do.

We commit the colleges regular resources as a matter of course to remedial programs, because that is one of the cornerstones for a community college.

We also have what we feel to be rather limited 101 funds. If we had the finances, this is an area where we could have more tutors.

We could have more laboratories. We could use the kind of devices which we are already using and apply them to more people.

Right now 101 funds only go to the Allegheny Campus, the way the program is set up with the Commonwealth. It has been determined that one amount of money will be given to the Community College of Allegheny County and it won't be substantially increased.

We have internally made the decision to keep concentrating that at the Allegheny campus. We could well use more money at Allegheny as well as at our other campuses to try to supplement our own funding in that area.

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7 17) 761 -7 ISO

I think that is just an example when we talk about what we can learn from the evidence that we have garnered in the last couple of years.

CHAIRMAN COWELL; I think members of this Committee are very much inclined again to recommend important increases in 101 funding and an extension of those services to part-time students.

But frankly what I find higher ed officials not doing is being very helpful to us in terms of providing the documentation.

Now, what do students drop out? (Words inaudible) they can't tell us what is happening with attrition. Now, you have got somewhat of a handle on the problem.

But I really don't know to what extent academics is a question. I know it is a factor. It is clear—

DR. KRAFT: We know that is the leading response when we ask blacks why they did not return. We know that is the leading response.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. All of us need to get a better handle on that, though, and provide more documentation if we are going to be able to convince our colleagues that this needs to be one of the priorities when we look at what we are going to do with available higher education dollars.

I think it ought to be. My instincts say that. I think other members of this Committee feel the same way.


But when we are asked to defend that position, you know, we ! resort to instincts rather than hard data.

i We need the facts and figures if we are going to i be effective advocates for those kinds of programs. ' One final area I would like to ask you a question

> about. You did not speak to the issue of faculty and the kind of progress or the situation that exists at the community college with respect to minority faculty employment.

Can you speak to that issue?

DR. KRAFT: Sure. Go ahead. MR, PURIER: 8.4 percent of all of our faculty are

black. 15 percent of all of our administrators are black. 17 percent of our clerical support staff are black.

Forty-eight percent of our maintenance custodial staff are black. We are higher than—in all categories, higher than any availability data that you may find, be it local, regional, State or national.

We are higher in every one of those categories. We, however, recognize that we need to do more in the teaching faculty area.

We still have higher goals in the teaching faculty area than would be expected of us either under the deseg plan or under any available data, statistics that you can find.

We recognize that tied to retention as has been


stated earlier, the need for black role models exists. We need more black faculty that our black students can identify with, that have the kind of sensitivity that is necessary to encourage our students to stay and to go on and get that degree and transfer on to baccalaureate programs.

We recognize that need and we are certainly striving to go beyond where we are. Our problem, however, is, we don't have an attrition problem among our faculty at community college.

We are not having a high turnover in the number of faculty at community college. We don't have a number of full-time positions that we have recruited for in the last couple of years at community college.

Those areas that we have recruited for have been in data processing, have been in accounting. We were looking for MBA's and you know the market that we are competing with in those areas, have been in allied health and nursing.

But we don't have the kind of turnover in our other areas where we would be in a position to have immediate impact upon percentage of blacks in our faculty.

We just haven't had that. CHAIRMAN COWELL: The 8.5 percent, is that full-time? MR. BOYD: That is full-time faculty, yes.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: What percentage of your total

faculty is full-time at the community college?


MR. BOYD: Approximately 410 full-time faculty. We have approximately anywhere from 1,800 to 2,200 part-time faculty, depending upon the semister that you look at.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Other questions?

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Just one.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Chaka? REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: I guess many of us are

impressed with the numbers with the presentation and you need to be congradulated to the extent that you have been successful.

I have one question about proprietary higher education institutions. There has been some concern and even some work by this Committee on that issue.

I am interested because I would assume that they are your, I guess, competitors in a sense as to what effect they have in terms of draining away black students and other students from the normal community college stream into proprietary higher education institutions.

There has been a great deal of concern both at a Federal level and at a State level about some of the quality issues involved in some of these proprietary institutions.

I would be interested in knowing. DR. KRAFT: I have heard that the Pittsburgh area

has the highest proportion of proprietary schools in the whole United States.

I don't know how true that is. Unfortunately, I


1 don't have any statistics. I can't recall any information

2 that would really be an answer to your question. 3 i just really don't know what the situation is,

4 vis-a-vis proprietary institutions talcing students from us. 5 I will say that over the years there has been, I think, a

6 pretty good effort maintained to have the nature of the 7 programs not be quite the same, to try to avoid a kind of

8 head to head competition. 9 While we do have certain hands on one and two year. 10' programs, we invariably have certain other kinds of course

11 requirements that go with that. 12" We have certain math requirements, certain 13 liberal arts requirements. Those other disciplines that 14 I am not certain that proprietary schools always have 15 and I just don't know enough of their business to try to 16 answer that. 17 REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Let me try to get at it 18 another way then, perhaps. 19 Do you have any idea in terms of the number of 20 students that come in to the school who have already had 21 some experience in proprietary institutions and have used up 22 some of their financial aid through that mechanism? 23 DR. KRAFT: I am sorry. We may be able to do 24 some kind of a sampling of financial aid forms to discover 25 that.

I COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717 )761 -7150

I am just not sure. But we don't have that today.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Chaka, I would suggest that that could be—I think it ought to be available through PHEAA. They ought to be able to do a check on applications for any institutions and find out what the prior use may be.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Thank you. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Other questions? Representative Davies? REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: Can you tell me what

percentage of those that go on to other colleges and universities overall are black or white, as compared to your enrollment figures?

Now, I know that that doesn't jive statistically because you have those who just come for the course. Do you have the percentage breakdown of that and with your detailed followup studies, will there be any evidence that you can give at a later date as to what the success stories are of those who do go on?

MR. Purier: We don't have—as I mentioned before, we don't have that broken down by race. The way we produce our survey of graduates is actually to get on that phone and to call everyone that graduated in June of 1985.

One of the questions that we haven't asked up to this point is, what is your race, when we make that call. We haven't—I am sure there is a way for us to give—


correlate the information we get from that survey with the

files of the students that we have.

That is something that we will be doing and make

a point of doing that.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: All right.

MR. PURIER; We do not have that information

available.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: Now, even though you do not

require the testing, do you record any of those that have

taken SAT's before they come there, do you have that on your

records?

MR. PURIER: We don't require an entrance exam.

Once a student has been admitted they take a placement exam

to determine whether or not they need to enroll in remedial

courses so that they will be at the college level.

Those students—first time students that come in,

that end up taking a remedial course, you are looking at

approximately seventy percent of our students coming into the

community college end up taking at least one remedial course.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: But you don't have any data

on any of your students that had taken SAT's and what they

were at with those.

MR. PURIER: No.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: And what was r e f l e c t e d i f

there was any follow ^ th rough-on t h o s e t h a t go on?


MR. PURIER: No. ! REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: You said seyenty percent of

i your overall student body takes at least one remedial course. I What percentage of your incoming black students take it?

MR. PURIER: I don't have that figure, but I would i imagine that it is probably higher.

REPRESENTATIVE FATTAH: Thank you. i CHAIRMAN COWELL: Other questions?

i One final point on a question on my part. Do you have available or can you make available to us a copy of your institutional response to the OCR report of earlier this summer?

DR. KRAFT: Sure, absolutely no problem at all. CHAIRMAN COWELL: If you could forward that to my

office, I would appreciate it. DR. KRAFT: We would be glad to do that. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Thank you very much for being

with us. DR. KRAFT: Thank you all very much. CHAIRMAN COWELL: And thank you for sticking with

us. We were so far behind. (Witnesses excused.) CHAIRMAN COWELL: Do we have a representative of

the Pittsburgh NAACP present at this point? Mr. Adams is our 1:00 witness. The Urban

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717) 761 -7 1 50

Legaue representatives are present.

We are going to recess then for twenty minutes.

Alice is scheduled for 1:45. We will get started a few

minutes before that then. We will convene back here then at

1:35.

(Recess.}

CHAIRMAN COWELL: We will call our hearing back

to order and I expect that some of our other members will be

coming here shortly.

If they hear us getting started that may move them

along.

Our next scheduled witness is Mr. Harvey Adams

representing the Pittsburgh Chapter of NAACP and his testimony

will be presented by Carolyn Franklin.,

Whereupon,

CAROLYN FRANKLIN

having been calledr testified as follows:

DIRECT TESTIMONY

MS. FRANKLIN: I am Carolyn Franklin a board

member of the Pittsburgh Branch NAACP. Unfortunately Mr.

Adams is out of town and could not be here today,and asked

me if I would come and deliver these few remarks for him.

Dr. Mary Lou Stone who is here at the University of

Pittsburgh is the chair of our education committee.

Unfortunately she is out of town.


1 So you will receive a" written report from Mary Lou

2 citing incidents and occasions with the institutions of higher

3 learning where we feel as though the integration efforts have 4 not been succeeding.

5 CHAIRMAN COWELL: Carolyn, when,we receive that 6 we will, make it a formal part of the record. Again, if that is 7 submitted in writing, we will make sure it is shared with all 8 of the members of the Education Committee. 9 MS. FRANKLIN: Okay. Very good. 0 As I said, she will have statistics, incidents, 1 comments. I don't have a written report for you because 2 Harvey asked me to just come and to let you know that and to J share a few things with you. 1 In talking with you, I have been associated with

' an institution of higher learning for:thirteen years, mainly 5 the Community College of Allegheny County, here in Pittsburgh. 7 I would like for all of you to know that we really 5 liked your bill better before you amended it, because I * think the bill before the amendment states the problems and the ' facts that you— l CHAIRMAN COWELL: The resolution? I MS. FRANKLIN: Yes, the resolution. States the J problems and the facts that you have to deal with. We would i like to say that as far as educational institutions, colleges > and universities, community colleges—and this is on behalf of


all the NAACP—have not done their job at all.and are lax in doing what they did previously when integration and discrimination was a high issue.

They have become very lax with it. In working with one for thirteen years, I have had experience with discrimination on hiring, promotions, with administrators, and faculty, with the directing of students to all black campuses and keeping them from our suburban campuses, with the promotions and hiring, it even goes as far back to minority vendors, coming into institutions to bid on projects and programs and those kinds of things.

I can also attest to the fact that they make it very uncomfortable for the blacks that are presently within the system and they are very insensitive to the needs and the concerns of the black employees within the institutions.

I like to tell this story about community college. I was at community college for thirteen years. As of August 14th, I am not with them.

I was with them for thirteen years. Ron, you will remember I had a story about the Human Relations Commission, too.

But I was working in Harrisburg as deputy director for the First Pennsylvania Commission on the Status of Women when I was contacted by Bill Powell who was then a radio personality here in the city, and Charlie Harris who informed


me that they had been picketing and dealing with the community college because there were no blacks presently employed thirteen years ago in administrative positions within their college office, which is the office that directs the goings on of all the campuses.

So they sent me a letter to come in for an interview and they flew me in. I was hired as director of community relations on November 15th, 1973.

There were three of us who were hired at that time. There was one person who was hired as an internal auditor, one person who was hired as an assistant to the president and myself, in November 1973.

From November 1973 to August of 1986, the original three were still the same three at the college. No others were ever brought in.

As of my departure on August the 14th, that leaves two./ the original two from November 1973.

So I just think that tells you a little bit about your efforts and what the universities and colleges are doing.

Also, they—I can only speak for the institution that I was involved with. I think sometimes that we look at numbers and we all realize that numbers can be turned around to accommodate whatever we want them to accommodate.

We can change numbers. We can change statistics to make us look good on paper. In reality we look like zilch.


I think that along with looking at desegregation and integration and the mobility and the movement of the persons within the institutions, sometimes we need to look at the jobs and the insensitive ways that they often give integration a slap in the face.

This is another case in point. I always felt bad when I brought this up because I know that everybody needs a job.

I am always pleased when I see black people working, because I know we need a job more than any others. But it always amazed me that at college office, which was the main office of the Community College of Allegheny County where I worked, the cleaning people were all black.

There was not one cleaning person on staff. That always worried me, because it occurred to me what sort of picture did that present to students who come.

Not that there is anything at all wrong with cleaning people. I love them. But I just was always concerned that I was sure that we could have moved the cleaning people around.

I go out to Center North, I go out to South. I see all white cleaning people. But when we come to college office where everyone comes in and out to conduct their business, there was nothing but black cleaning people.

Now, that might sound—but think about that. I


think that there are a lot of insensitive things that happen within institutions that when we begin to look at, well, they are doing fine.

They have ten people that are professors with tenure and they have, you know, twenty people who are in college doing this and that and the other.

We don't really look at what they are doing and where1 the power is coming from. As I said, we have a number of incidents from, not only—we don't have to go to the middle of the State.

We don't have to go to Penn State. We can go to down the street, up the street, across the bridge. We have problems right here at home, incidents that you will be receiving from us in writing to share with the whole group.

As I said, we didn't—Harvey did not have a prepared statement. He wanted me to deliver those few comments for him.

If you have any questions whatsoever, I would be delighted to try and answer them for you.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me ask a couple things, Carolyn. The community college situation, you said it yourself, one of the three people who were hired originally at the creation of the college—

MS. FRANKLIN: It was not at the creation, by the way. The college was well into—


CHAIRMAN COWELL: I'm sorry. It would have been ten years into it or some number of years into it.

MS. FRANKLIN: Yes.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: But when you were hired at that point—you probably said this and I just didn't listen carefully—were you part of the administrative staff?

Is that what they called you? MS. FRANKLIN: Yes. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. And you are saying that—

MS. FRANKLIN: I am saying that thirteen years later—

CHAIRMAN COWELL: As of August 14th, there was still—there were three and now there are two?

MS. FRANKLIN: There are two. I was the first black woman administrator hired in college office. I was the only one in thirteen years.

Now, that I am gone, I can assure you there probably won't be another one unless they feel the need that we had better do this, because it is going to look good on paper.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I think you came in the room after I asked this question. I asked the representative of the college, Boyd Purier, about the faculty statistics.

I am going from memory, but I remember him saying something like eight and a half percent of the faculty were


black.

I think he said fifteen percent of the administrative

staff were black. Now, did that fifteen percent constitute

the three of you? Was that it?

MS, FRANKLIN: As I said to you, you can turn

numbers around to make them look anyway you want them to look.

Because I have been there for thirteen years, I have been

privy to all of the inneractings and to all the games and to

all the things that we do.

Now, I am telling you that the fifteen percent

figure that you are getting is a false figure.

CHAIRMAN COWELL; I assume you mean that it is

inflated in some way or another?

MS. FRANKLIN: Yes.

CHAIRMAN COWELL; What do you think is a more

accurate figure?

MS. FRANKLIN: Was he giving you campus by campus

or was he giving you total institution?

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I assume it was total institution

since it was a single number.

MS. FRANKLIN: Okay. I would probably say maybe

ten to twelve percent. What you have to understand is that

when you take in total institution., you are taking in Boyce

Campus, Allegheny Campus, South Campus, Center North Campus,

and two centers.


We are talking about Homewood-Brushton Center that is located right in the heart of Homewood, where probably all of the administrators in there with the exception of maybe three or four are black.

But it is not a campus. It is a center. We are talking about a Boyce campus and a South campus and a Center North campus for all practical intents and purposes is nearly white.

You come to an Allegheny campus which is an innercity campus, and here again, you are going to find a concentration of blacks being that you will find—Allegheny campus is the innercity campus, is probably where you will find all of your black hierarchy.

It is a black vice president, Dr. Julius Brown, who is dean of that campus. There is a black dean of students and a number of people conducting the 101 program, whatever.

You get those numbers from Homewood-Brushton and Allegheny campus. You would go to South, Center North and Boyce, college office and roll those all into one, you are going to come up—you may come up with three percent.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me ask about the NAACP for a moment. You mentioned there is an education committee.

MS. FRANKLIN: Chaired by Dr. Mary Lou Stone. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Right. We will receive some

material from her.


MS. FRANKLIN: Yes.

■ CHAIRMAN COWELL: Does the education committee have 1 programs through which it actually works with students or

does education committee do something else? 1 MS. FRANKLIN: No. The education committee does 1 have programs that it actually works with students. One of the

big programs that Mary Lou's committee does is the spring 1 tour of all of the black colleges and institutions in the 1 State and United States.

> We do about—we take the children on a week—the

week of spring break and try to orientate them towards going

to a black college, because we know that our children are

not getting what they need in these white institutions.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Let me ask you, maybe this is

what I had—something I had heard about earlier this year

or it may just be a similar program.

The Wilkinsburg Borough Council was solicited and

in fact appropriated, I think, $5,000, towards a bus tour

of black institutions.

Is this the same thing we are talking about?

MS. FRANKLIN: This is probably—I am sure it is

a part of our bus tour. Because this bus tour is sponsored

by at least three or four different people.

It is a very nominal fee that the children pay

for the week long trip that they go.


CHAIRMAN COWELL: The thing that I run into just intellectually, I guess, is the problem or at least the question, we have so many people working at different levels of energy, but working to one degree or another to try to enhance minority recruitment, minority enrollment at Pennsylvania institutions.

We have got a lot of people working hard to preserve Cheyney as an institution, maintain its academic viability.

We have got people trying to increase minority enrollment at Pitt and State, Temple, as well as at our fourteen State universities, and at the same time we have some people who are basically encouraging talented black students to look elsewhere.

MS. FRANKLIN: We are encouraging them to look elsewhere because they are not getting what they need from the white institutions.

I for one doubt the sincerity of the recruitment efforts from all of the institutions.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: What ought to be done to make— I don't want to get into a debate about the sincerity of their recruitment efforts.

They may or may not be working hard at it. But more importantly, what ought to be done to make those institutions more meaningful to young black students who are


looking around for some post secondary education? ! What could make Pitt or Penn State or Shippensburg

■ or whatever it happens to be, a more relevant education * option for that student so that that student does not have to

consider or perhaps ultimately choose an institution out of i State?

MS. FRANKLIN: Well, I would think that that is a ( good question. It is one that I think in order to answer I you would have to look at the institutions one by one. I I say that because, understand, a black student

could come to a University of Pittsburgh and they would be 1 much more comfortable at the University of Pittsburgh then 1 they would in a Shippensburg State College.

The reason for that being is that they would have ' people to relate to, other blacks for support system, counselors, 1 whatever, to get them through the process.

You would have to look at it institution by 1 institution to see what programs each institution is offering 1 in terms of—you can get the money and get the black student 1 there, but once the black student gets there if they are not

being counseled properly, if they don't have support systems : from within the institution— 1 CHAIRMAN COWELL: Well, that is the key. You are

touching on it now. The real challenge for all of us is to ' improve our Pennsylvania institutions.


MS. FRANKLIN: And to provide the support systems that are needed by the minority students.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Does the NAACP, through any of its chapters, really seek to work directly with those institutions to counsel them and to assist them in terms of providing those support services and whatever other changes need to occur?

MS. FRANKLIN: I do know that Dr. Mary Lou Stone whenever a problem occurs with the student, if she is contacted—she has no way of knowing unless she is contacted--if she is contacted by the student or the student's family and/or if it is brought to the attention of the branch, she does go in with her committee to try and see what the problem is and seek what accommodations can be worked out that it works well on both sides.

She has a number of cases that she has dealt with like that and some also within the public school institution here in the city.

I am sure she will be glad to share those with the Committee.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: You are talking about solving or dealing with some problem that has arisen, some incident ha s occur red.

MS. FRANKLIN: An incident has occurred. They never come until an incident has occurred.


CHAIRMAN COWELL: And there won't be any incidents,

there won't be any problems at institution "X" if you never

get any black students to go there.

I am suggesting that we need to find--when I go

through this same kind of debate and I listen to the same

issues raised when we talk about a grant program and we

continue to allow an exception, if you will, we allow students

to carry grants to out of state institutions and the major

reason for that is the argument that is made that some

minority students, many minority students, really don't have a

viable educational option here in Pennsylvania.

They have got to go to Georgia or Mississippi

or wherever it might happen to be to get the kind of

education program that they feel is appropriate for them.

I raise the same question there. Who needs to

carry the ball and what can we do to make our Pennsylvania

institutions better, to make them more relevant, to make

them more appropriate so that a young man or woman doesn't—

I don't want to preclude consideration of other institutions,

but I want to create an environment and a situation where

more young people will say, yes, there is something for me

at a Pennsylvania institution and benefit from that.

MS. FRANKLIN: Well, then maybe what—

CHAIRMAN COWELL: How can we do that?

MS. FRANKLIN: Maybe what you need to do is call


together a committee of PhD educators who deal with students on a daily basis and who know—black educators—who know what their needs are, what the deficiencies are within the Pennsylvania system, ask them to draw you up a plan, recommendations and look at it very closely, just don't have them do it and say here it is, look at it very closely and once you look at it closely, determine what it is that can be implemented and do it, and watchdog it.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: It seems to me, though, it is really something that is going to have to be done on an institution by institution basis.

MS. FRANKLIN: That is what I said earlier.

CHAIRMAN COWELL; Okay. MS. FRANKLIN: That is what I said earlier.

Perhaps you might find some of the PhD's in the school education across the State, who have done studies on institutions.

I know there are a number of statewide organizations, the Black Conference on Higher Education and there is another one {words inaudible) that escapes me now, but I am sure that they have facts and figures that can help you.

I am also positive that they would have more then a number of black educators who would be willing to sit on that kind of committee and to develop for you some

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7 17) 76 1 -7 1 50

things that they feel would improve the plight of the black student in Pennsylvania.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. Well, that is an issue that we.-will not" solve overnight. I think certainly people have worked hard to try to address that issue.

I don't mean to suggest that anyone has ignored it. But it just strikes me when—weare talking in two different directions.

We have got people saying, let's spend money and energy and make a conserted effort to keep students in Pennsylvania, first of all, and attract more minority students to our institution and then a local government in my legislative district took $5,000 and gave it to somebody to take students out of State.

MS. FRANKLIN: Well, I am saying, spend money, spend energy, but also spend the brain power to develop a program that works for black students and then don't just say you have the program, implement it and watchdog it.

This is what has happened with, I believe, desegregation now. In the sixties and seventies there was all this hullabolloo, you have got to desegregate",''' you- y~~" have got to integrate,' and you have got to bring in black teachers and everybody was up for it.

If they didn't do this, they didn't get Federal money. Everybody watched and watched. Then everyone got very


L lax on it.

! When people get lax, white America bega,n to feel i very comfortable with it. We don't have to do this program. [ We don't have to keep this administrator.

i We don't have to hire this black faculty, because

i the laws have become lax. They have not been endorsed. You have not watchdogged and pushed them to make sure they were doing what they were supposed to do.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Any other questions? REPRESENTATIVE : I missed the first part

when you were all there that time at Allegheny Community College, do you have any idea of whether or not there seemed to be any increased success of black students that had completed the two-year program to go on because we didn't have statistics and they didn't have the statistics available.

Do you have any impression of whether there seems to be an increase in those students or not?

MS. FRANKLIN: I have two boxes of stuff at my home that I will be glad to send and share with you. I think that the black students at community college, we have not had much success with them going on, but we always try to promote the glowing stories, the wonder stories.

Here is someone who came to us and dropped out of high school and got a GED and they went on and became a doctor


or went on and this, that and the other. ! But for instance on the Boyce campus which is in

'< Monroeville, they had an excellent, excellent health program out there, which had no blacks in it.

So, for two years, they have been saying, oh, we have got to do this and we have got to do that to recruit blacks and we are going to do this.

1 They set up a committee and it sits there for six 1 months and no one does anything. Then all of a sudden, you f know, the NAACP or somebody in that area files a complaint,

you know, what is going on, our students can't get in.

Then they get this committee and everybody runs out and does something for a month, you know, we have got to get them in, we have got to get them in and everything gets quiet and nobody listens and then we are into another year with still no blacks in the program.

I would dare say that probably for black students Allegheny campus and Homewood-Brushton center, which are the two innercity center and campuses are probably where you would find the most success stories for black students.

I attribute this to the fact that they have some black faculty there and some black directors who are truly concerned about them and who attempt to direct them in the right direction.

Our 101 program at Allegheny campus is an excellent

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program, but not because it gets support from the institution, it is an excellent program because it is directed by an excellent person who really cares about the students and does—goes over administrative rules lots of times just to make sure that the students are being accommodated.

REPRESENTATIVE : Is that program only available at the one campus and not at the others?

MS. FRANKLIN: No. I believe it is available at all campuses.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Dr. Kraft said it was available only at the Allegheny campus.

MS. FRANKLIN: At Allegheny campus.

And if you would like some figures from that program, there is an excellent director there of that program. I believe you may know her.

She lives in your district, Cecelia Burkley. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Yes, Cecelia.

MS. FRANKLIN: And she would have a lot of information on that program for you.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: She passes information on to me from time to time.

MS. FRANKLIN: Yes. As I said, the program is a success there. I believe it is only a success because of Cecelia.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay.

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7 17> 76 t -7 1 50

REPRESENTATIVE : Just one other. That health service program, is that only available

at Boyce?

MS. FRANKLIN: No. They have health service programs at all of the campuses. For some reason or other the health areas seems to be one that black students don't come to, but black students don't come to it because they are steered away from it at the institution.

They are not directed toward it. They don't feel welcome in it. They have a hard time getting into it. This is something new that was just brought to the attention of that particular campus by Monroeville branch of the NAACP*

REPRESENTATIVE : Thank you. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Thanks very much. We will look

for the other material in the mail.

MS. FRANKLIN: Okay and thank you. (Witness excused.)

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Our next witness is Alice Carter who is the director of the Education Department of the Urban League of Pittsburgh.

She has given up a portion of her vacation time and we have delayed her even further.

Thanks for being with us again, Alice. MS. CARTER: That is okay. Thanks for asking me. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Sure.


Whereupon,

ALICE CARTER having been called, testified as follows:

DIRECT TESTIMONY MS. CARTER; I am pleased to have this opportunity

to speak before the House Sub-Committee on Higher Education this afternoon concerning House Resolution No. 243, which is designed to assess the success of efforts to promote racial integration and nondiscrimination within the colleges and

1 universities which receive direct institutional appropriations from the General Assembly.

I represent the Urban League of Pittsburgh, a sixty-eight year old, interracial social service agency, dedicated to securing equal opportunity for minorities and the poor in four basic areas of human life; employment, education, housing and health and welfare.

We serve at the Urban League some 16,000 clients a year and are one of 113 affiliates of the National Urban League and a member agency of the local United Way and the

1 Health and Welfare Association. Our long term commitment to the issue of

: desegregation is well-known, I think, but sorry to say this afternoon that our comments cannot be considered rosy.

On October the 7th, 1985, we requested information from the U. S. Office of Education, Office of Civil Rights,


under the Freedom of Information Act, requested was a copy of the Pennsylvania Higher Education Desegregation Plan, all annual compliance reports past and present of each higher educat Lonal institution who participates in the plan and the OCR's r isponse or assessment of each institution's compliance reports.

e want all that information? Our executive was in the process of preparing a report for another goverr me ntal body.

:ely, the information did not come to us in time for that report, but I had an opportunity to peruse piles of information in preparing for this presentation.

f the aforementioned institutions have a min .t} percentage of more than five percent. ' ley are, Tem !, which has twenty-two percent, Pitt,, which has thi sei percent and California, seven.

The mean for all of the others is 3.09 percent. These figures are as of November 15th, 1985. I was not able to ascei tain what the figures we :e when the mandate began to desegrec ate, but I think that we can safely wager that they are not g tt ering an impressive track record as the years go by.

The colleges and universities do seem to be doing a slighl ly better job in retention and comple ion. Again, I would wager though that this \s due to the introduction of Act 101 in 1971.


http://fig.ur.es

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That year twenty-eight institutions covering 1,500 students received Act 101 grants. Many of them still do.

In 1983, sixty-eight institutions and more than 10,000 students participated in the program. Now, you all knovr the purpose of the act, to provide educationally or economically deprived Pennsylvanians access to higher ed with graduation as the ultimate goal.

Act 101, without a doubt,has unquestionably helped to stem the revolving door syndrome via that two-year commitment that they have to make to the students, plus the vital support services that the money provides, by that I mean, tutoring, counseling and additional staff.

We have seen countless numbers of students offered an educational opportunity and experiencing success thanks to Act 101.

How? Our agency has served the act since its inception. We have been proposal readers, external evaluators, advisory committee members on various campuses here within the State, and by referring students to those campuses with confidence because we know what is occurring on the campuses.

For example, we know the dedication of the Commonwealth staff to Act 101. We know the layout and the composition of the campuses.

We know the competence and purposefulness of Act


101 director,staff and other people who are involved and how the institutions themselves have changed in varying degrees.

All you have to do is read the program objectives on any one of the participating institutions proposal over the years to see how much they have learned about meeting the needs of these students as well as the goals of the program.

By the way, if you are interested, sir, I have the original proposals, so you can see what they were asking for in ' 71 and then look at how they are proposed now.

It is a big, big difference. We have noted, though, two outstanding changes that I wanted to call to your attention this afternoon.

One good thing is the majors that the young people have are more realistic in assuring that the students will be gainfully employed after graduation.

After all, isn't that what it is all about. The other thing that really blew my mind was that more black males are attending the out of the way smaller institutions, such as Kutztown and Millersville, Mansville and Bloomsburg.

The larger ones, Temple, Pitt, California and Indiana and Penn State, seem to attract more black females. I mentioned that to one of my colleagues out here this morning and she mentioned and I think I agree with her, that it is probably due to the dating situation.

The girls want half a chance and they know if they

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get out into the boondocks, that there is a limited supply of black males will be there and they will probably not have anybody to date for four years.

If they stay in urban areas, there is a little better chance that the odds aren't quite so bad. That kind of makes sense. :

But it does blow my mind that these smaller schools have a larger percentage of black males than females.

Do you want to know all they are doing to complete things, well, five percent of the earned degrees within State students, last year, were earned by blacks.

The actual figures are that there were 562 out of 12,096 who earned degrees who are from this State. I have to say this, Representative Irvis can be proud of his foresight as Act 101's major arthur.

You are to be commended for your support of the act throughout the years and I hope you will continue to do that.

Now, this is the sorry side of the story. Nondiscrimination is another matter. I have been an external evaluator for fifteen years with Act 101.

I think they send me out to the campuses where they are having trouble, because I usually say, why do you always send me back to these schools and why do I get these little out of the way schools?

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717) 761-71SO

They said, oh, Alice, you do such a good job. I found out I am a trouble shooter. So when I go on these campuses, I have found that the thing that is really, really lacking that keeps them from getting an exemplary rating is the attitudes of prevailing faculty, the attitudes of the other students on campus, the attitudes of the towns that house all of these schools.

They haven't done much to change it or to bring towns people on the advisory committee so they can understand the needs and what they are really trying to do.

Then there are tensions between the black and white students. There isn't usually adequate space for the program staff and operations, if it is, it is in an out of the way place.

One college had it near the pool. It was so hot down there, I don't see how they stood it. It existed for years.

These are issues that I have to bring up year after year after year in campus after campus after campus. Try to do something about the attitudes that prevail.

It is hard to work on attitudes. It is easy to : work on figures, as Carolyn said. The big thing is to get ! them to change their mind about what they are doing. 1 Now, most of this is not going to be irradicated 1 until there is better minority representation on the governing


boards.

This record is dismal. I mean, absolutely dismal. The two schools with the best record in the State are Edinborough and Indiana.

But even they don't have permanent black representation. Some of these schools, Pitt has so many and then they have so many that are permanent.

None of the blacks have permanent representation. Six of the State owned, part of the State college systems/ six of those campuses have no black representation on their governing board, absolutely none.

I hardly think that is a sign of commitment. This information was reported to the Office of Civil Rights as of September 25th, 1985 by the schools themselves.

I have the exact details if you want to hear them. We of the Urban League, Representative, are very, very pleased that you consider this matter important enough that over the years you have had periodic checkups on your own and you are to be commended for that, because like Carolyn said, when you stop watchdogging things change.

I sincerely hope some of the weak spots that I have mentioned in my testimony will be looked into and corrected shortly thereafter.

The next time I recommend that a student or two be invited to testify at such a hearing. They really will open


upand tell you what it is all about.

I asked some of the black students at Swathmore what the problems were with campus. The main thing was that they said, would you please tell these people that there is such a thing as a black middle class.

If they could afford Swathmore, they were not be considered out of the Ghetto somewhere. So there is a lot to be done on attitudes and how you feel.

Thank you very much for asking me to come, even though I did interrupt my vacation. I don't have copies because I did this on my trusty portable this morning, lousy.

If you want to hear more details about the governing boards or the percentage of blacks on each of the campuses, I have it here.

I will type all of this up and make sure that you get copies.so that you can distribute them.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Thank you very much, Alice. MS. CARTER: You are welcome. CHAIRMAN COWELL: Are there questions? John?

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: How—is that a growing thine or sizeable change in the blacks in the small State schools in the State system?

MS. CARTER: No. I said they have about three percent black in those campuses. The mean is three percent.

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (7 17) 761 -7 1 50

What surprised me is that there are more black males on those

campuses than there are black females.

That was a big surprise. I thouqht it would be the

other way around. Because usually the mocho guys don't want

to leave the city to go to Bloomsburg and some of those

other ones.

It is a real big change.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: There is no relationship

of what particular subject or particular course study they

are pursing?

MS. CARTER: I can get all of that. I have got

piles of information. Like I said, when I was called to come

here today, I went into the office for just a couple of hours

and pulled some of the data out.

I have all that information and I can get that for

you. I can show you some of the copies now. Everything that

the colleges send in to OCR we get copies of.

REPRESENTATIVE DAVIES: Okay.

CHAIRMAN COWELL; Alice, I assume that the number

that you mentioned very early in your remarks about—I think

you said three institutions which have a black enrollment in

excess of five percent.

You cited thirteen percent for Pitt. I am not

sure which number you are using or what—that is thirteen

percent of what.

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717J 761-71 SO

The figure that we got from the Pitt folks

themselves this morning was that in terms of the total student

enrollment/ it was somewhere around seven and a half percent,

for 1985, seven and a half percent black enrollment.

Would that happen to be freshmen enrollment by

any chance?

MS. CARTER: Wo. I have it as total.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: That is total.

MS. CARTER: This was submitted by Pitt on the

15th of November. This is a report of last year.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. We are going to go back

and look at those things.

MS. CARTER: And the exact figures were that Pitt

had 6,827 males of which 738 were black; 5,774 females, of

which 753 were black.

That is where the tota'l came from; eleven percent

black males; thirteen percent black females.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I am trying to add up those

numbers and what that probably would be. Because the figures

we have, they had 24,000 total enrollment.

Now, those are total bodies.

MS. CARTER: Now, this would probably be the

campus here.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay, the main campus.

MS. CARTER: Main campus, I would say.

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY 0 1 7 * 7 6 1 - 7 1 5 0

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. Well, okay, we will check

that out. I was curious what—

MS. CARTER: We don't have total students. We

don't have the American Indians, Hispanics and that.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I don't know if you were in the

room this morning, there was a big unknown. It was about

twenty percent and we weren't quite sure—

REPRESENTATIVE : In some cases thirty

percent.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: We are going to get copies of

them. We will check them out.

Just out of curiosity, you were speaking about

black males who, to some degree, anyway, seem to be more

inclined to enroll at a Kutztown or some out of the way,

as you put it, institution.

Have you been able to determine if that, in any

way, might be due to the academic programs available?

MS. CARTER: No. I went into the office and got

this from my files. This has leaped out at me. I have not

had a chance to investigate why.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: I just wondered. This goes

back to the little dialogue that I had with Carolyn about

what we ought to be doing, what can be done by the

institutions to make themselves more attractive and more

relevant to the interests of minority students.


You are being academic now, aren't you? CHAIRMAN COWELL: I guess so.

MS. CARTER: I think it is a little bit more than that. But we have to go back. The same reports also state what majors these youngsters are taking.

I think that will show us just what the attraction is, beyond the esoteric things.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: You are probably more accurate than my hunch or my guess, but I just wondered if some of these schools may have found something that was more relevant in the way of an academic program or it simply happened by chance, maybe the didn't do it consciously.

MS. CARTER: No. I think most of the youngsters go on recommendation of friends or they come to a counselor like at the Urban League or within the NAACP.

Based on that—or their high school counselor—based on that they will go to the school.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: What about this point that I discussed with Carolyn Franklin, the need which—and I am not quarreling with it, I understand it.

I am just saying that it is indicative of a problem we have and a challenge that all of us face, when leaders in the black community feel compelled to raise money and spend money to help young black men and women who are Pennsylvania residents look out of state for an education opportunity.


Now, that says that there is some major void in terms of our academic offerings or their—and if there is not, then it is an attitudial problem or information problem.

I am not sure what. From your perspective--MS. CARTER: I think it is choice. Everybody

doesn't want to stay in the State. Most of the white students want to go away from home.

A lot—I have heard a lot about the South. They get more of their history from the southern schools. They get a feeling of acceptance right away.

Remember a lot of these youngsters, particularly the ones who would go to a Westinghouse, have spent their entire academic experience with all black.

The thought of going beyond that and starting to inneract with whites is frightening. So to get them over that hump, I mean, a southern school just fits the bill, where they take no foolishness.

When they get there and find out, you know, just being black, you don't have it easy here, you are going to have to work hard, and a lot of them say, well, this isn't as easy as I thought it was going to be and they would be more willing in their upper classman years to transfer to a Pennsylvania school.

We have a lot of black youngsters. So the few that would go on Mary Lou Stone's bus ride, or you know, just


to see if they wanted to go to a southern school, that is

not taking away from the Pennsylvania institutions.

By the way, they are trying. They contact us

all the time. I am on the sucker list, you know, to serve

on this committee and that committee for recruitment.

I have to use them advisably. We try to help.

They really are making an effort, but the kids are very

selective now, plus the fact that they have seen their older

sibling who struggled through the sixties and seventies and

got a college education against high odds, who aren't

working anywhere now, and who are disillusioned and angry

at society.

They say, why should I go through all that

hassle if that is the way I am going to end up.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: You made that point when we

visited with you a couple years ago or a year and a half

ago on the participation issue.

MS. CARTER: It is still there. They have to see

that there is something in it for me, just like all of the

other youngsters who are asking, what is in it for me.

If I go through all of this, will I be gainfully

employed? That is the bottom line.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Well, go back to the question I

was raising earlier. It is an important one. If it is simply

a matter of choice, that is one thing.

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717) 761-7150 .

If it is an absolute failure on the part of our institutions to do some things that they ought to be doing, that they could be doing.

MS. CARTER: I agree with Carolyn again. You have to look on campus by campus. I could cite right now some that I think are doing grand jobs and others that I think are doing dismal jobs.

I think you need to look at them. We get to the point that we cannot be objective any more, you know, we are so used to this.

I think you need to take a look and see the reports that they turn in on Act 101. I was appalled when community college said they didn't have data.

They do in their Act 101 program, but only in their Act 101 program, which is indeed confined to the North side, not even Homewood freshmen.

So a lot of very wise things were said here today and if you are serious about them, just follow through.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: You are obviously a very strong advocate of the 101 program, and I think all of us are. Through these hearings, I think members of this Committee are learning that our institutions and our policy makers need to be concerned as much about retention practices, policies, efforts as they are concerned about recruitment efforts.

In addition to 101, are there other things that


institutions ought to be doing or at least that we ought to

consider as a matter of public policy that would help enhance

retention efforts and retention success?

MS. CARTER: You know, one residual of Act 101 is

that the institutions should make a commitment to this, once

they get into it.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: There is still a match on their

part that is required.

MS. CARTER: Right. But the commitment is more thar

a financial match. The commitment is, hey, this program is

so great, that we are going to make this campus wide.

It has happened—can I mention one school?

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Sure.

MS. CARTER: California's campus. I didn't say it

because he is here. But it is true. They made it campus wide.

A lot of others are doing that.

But if you are just going to confine it to this

little group over here, you know, it is going to fail. But

we've got such grand ideas.

They do. They learn how to keep these kids

interested and they learn. Then they run up against

administration.

Again, that is why I think you need to look at

how they have people on the governing boards. We are not

going to get back presidents in position soon, but we certainly


can do something about the governing boards.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Are you aware—the governor

appoints those governing boards.

MS. CARTER: Yes.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Are you aware of the Governor's

office consulting with Urban League, NAACP or any organization

that would reflect some black leadership in the community for

suggestions about men and women who would be availabe to

serve, would be interested in serving on such boards?

MS. CARTER: That kind of request would go to

my executive director. He in turn would consult with me.

I have been there eighteen years and I have never seen this

kind of request.

I got an honor from one of the schools myself

last year, which I was very proud of. But as I looked at

their record, they have no blacks on their governing board.

I think I would have rather had been appointed

to their governing board.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: A nomination to their board.

MS. CARTER: Than to have for a convocation.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Any other questions?

As always, we appreciate the help. Thank you.

MS. CARTER: Thank you. Am I still on your

sucker list?

CHAIRMAN COWELL: See you later on.

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717t 761-7 1 SO

(Witness excused.) CHAIRMAN COWELL: Our next witness and the final

scheduled witness for this afternoon is Dr. Judith Griggs who is Co-Director of Special Programs at Duquesne University and she is here representing the Pennsylvania Black Conference on Higher Education.

Is Judith here? REPRESENTATIVE : No.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Okay. And she was scheduled for 2:15. I don't know Judith. Does anybody know her?

MS. : Yes, I do. Lovely girl, who used to run the Urban League (words inaudible) academy, has been with Duquesne for over twelve years, started with the Act 101 program, a very competent person.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: That was confirmed; right?

MS. : Yes.

MS. : (Word inaudible) is a good organization, by the way, Black Conference on Higher Education.

CHAIRMAN COWELL: Right. Dr. Lynch—Mr. Lynch testified at the Penn State hearing. I understand they may have a representative in Philadelphia, as well.

We heard some very helpful comments from Mr. Lynch up in Penn State.

Is there anybody else that has information that

they would like to share with us?

COMMONWEALTH REPORTING COMPANY (717t 761-7150

I again, want to thank everybody who helped make the hearing a success. If others have information that they would like to share with us, particularly written information at a future date, it would be most welcome.

Our inquiry will continue for the next several weeks and we hope to prepare a report for the legislature, some time in the middle of November.

Again, if you have information or informal comments, we certainly would welcome them.

Thanks again to everybody. This hearing is adjourned.

{Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned.)

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HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

H A R R I S B U R G

SOB-COMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION PA. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AUGUST 27, 1986 - 9:30 A.M.

PUBLIC HEARING PURSUANT TO H. R. 243 ROOM 2K56, FORBES QUADRANGLE BUILDING

UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA

a.m. Dr. Jack E. Freeman Executive Vice President University of Pittsburgh

i a.m. Professor Philip K. Wion President of United Faculty of the University of Pittsburgh Professor Dennis Brutus Chairman of Black Studies of the Department of Black Community Education, University of Pittsburgh Professor Barbara Sizemore Department of Black Community Education,

s University of Pittsburgh

i a.m. Dr. Jack Kraft President Community College of Allegheny County

I p.m. Lunch

p.m. Harvey Adams President of Pittsburgh Chapter of NAACP

p.m., Alice Carter Director of the Education Department of the Urban League of Pittsburgh

p.m. Dr. Judith Griggs Co-Director of Special Programs at Duquesne University representing the Pennsylvania Black Conference on Higher Education

3RITY

-AGHER, James J. A., Chairman DER, Ruth B., Subcommittee Chairman on Basic Education ILL, Ronald R., Subcommittee Chairman on Higher Education i$, Dwight, Secretary

riSTO, Joseph W. ^FELLA, Nicholas A. , Jeffrey W. EY, Peter J. FAH, Chaka INSKI, Gerard A. :0VITZ, Victor John ENGOOD, Henry JE, Thomas M. SINSn Edward A.

DRITY

CHER, Roger Raymond, Chairman IND, Stephen F., Subcommittee Chairman on Basic Education LOR, Elinor 2., Subcommittee Chairman on Higher Education

*JS, Edward F., Jr. IES, John S. , Jon D. W J , Lynn B. IRS, Jess EK, William S, Paul

Public Hearing Pursuant : to House Resolution 243 - PA ...

Documents

Transcript of Public Hearing Pursuant : to House Resolution 243 - PA ...