Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER 1954

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

300 Irrigation Acts, &c., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

TUESDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER, 1954.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. J. H. 2\Iann, Brisbane) took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS.

TASMANIAX LOTTERY.

Mr. H. B. TAYLOR CClayfield), for Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah), asked the Attorney-General-

'' 1. Is he aware that agents in Queens­land are selling Tasmanian lottery tickets which they are advertising in newspapers and by radio~

'' 2. Is it proposed to enforce the law which prohibits the sale of such tickets or the advertising of such lotteries in this State~"

Hon. W. POWER (Baroona) replied­" 1. Yes. "2. Yes."

BORDER RIVER SCHEME WEIRS.

lUr. NICKLIN (Landsborough-Leader of the Opposition) asked the Secretary for Public Lands and Irrigation-

'' Is it intended to construct any more of the 12 weirs proposed under the Border River Scheme than the two alreadY con­structed~ If so, what additional weirs are now under construction and which further ones are still projected~"

Hon. H. H. COLLINS (Tablelands­Secretary for Agriculture and Stock), for Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Belyando), replied-

'' 'l.'he determination of the number of weirs required is a matter for the Dumaresq-Barwon Border Rivers Commis­sion which has advised the Premiers of both States that, because of lack of funds and staff, it is not yet able to determine how many weirs will be necessary.''

STATE ScHOOL CoMMITTEES A"D A.L.P. FUNDS.

lUr. :iliORRIS (Mt. Coot-tha) asked the Premier-

" Will he please advise whether it is the policy of his Government to permit or encourage State School Committees to call meetings and organise functions to be held either in school grounds or elsewhere, when the funds therefrom, either wholly or in part, are intended for distribution between a fund for provision of school amenities and A.L.P. Funds?"

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane) replied-

'' The policy of my Government in con­nection with the functions of school com­mittees and the use of school build­ings and grounds is the same as that laid down by the hon. R. M. King when Minister for Public Instruction on 28 May, 1929."

Questions. [14 SEPTEMBER.] Questions. 301

BREEDERS OF DISEASE-FREE PIGS.

JUr. SP ARKES (Aubigny), for Mr. V. E. JONES (Callide), asked the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock-

"In view of the importance of eliminating disease as far as possible in the pig industry and with particular reference to ''brucellosis' '-will he kindly give consideration to the practicability of (a) publication in the 'Gazette' of names of breeders whose herds are brucellosis­free, and (b) educating farmers regarding the prime importance of confining their purchases of breeding stock to pigs which are free of the disease in question¥''

Hon. H. H. COLLINS (Tablelands) replied-

'' The department publishes monthly in the 'Queensland Agricultural Journal' a list of owners whose swine herds are tested for brucellosis. This journal is available to farmers and graziers in Queensland for one shilling ver annum, post free. Advisory officers of the Pig Branch as well as the Veterinary Services Branch are continually impressing on farmers the importance of purchasing disease-free stock.''

DELAY IN RENT DETERMINATION.

lUr. SPARKES (Aubigny), for JUr. V. E. JONES (Callide), asked the Secretary for Public Lands and Irrigation-

'' In reference to a complaint made to me that a selector, because of delay in rent determination, has been called upon to pay a three years' retrospective rent increase, amounting to over £170, will he kindly endeavour to speed up such determinn tions so as to mitigate as much as possible the financial uncertainties and difficulties which such delays involve for the selectors concerned~''

Hon. H. H. COLLINS (Tablelands­Secretary for Agriculture and Stock), for Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Belyando), replie,d-

'' The matter of determination by the Land Court of the rentals to be paid in respect of Crmvn leaseholds is dependent upon the reference to the Court of a report and valuation furnished, after inspection, by a l<~ield Officer of the Lands Dep:utment. The virtual cessation of departmental activities during World vVar II., the loss of experienced staff during that period and the post-war era, combined with the difficulties of recruiting and training new staff, led to a vast and unprecedented accumulation of field duties. In the result it was inevitable that retrospectivity of rental dcterminations should occur in some cases but this ''bank-up'' of work has now been overtaken and it is not anticipated that any undue delay vvill occur in future, in regard to the determination of the rentals of Crown leaseholds, for reasons which could be attributable to the Depart­ment of Public Lands.''

iD'EVELOPMENT OF SHUTE HARBOUR.

lUr. SP ARKES LLOYD ROBERTS

(Aubigny), for IUr. (Whitsunday), asked

the Treasurer-

'' Will he have the accessibility and suitability of Shute Harbour, near Proser­pine, investigated with a view to the open­ing of same as a port for Proserpine, which will then create a safe anchorage for tourist vessels from the Whitsunday Islands and reduce the distance of sea travel, in addition to greatly improving the economic position in Proserpine both in the export of primary production and the importation of general commodities~"

Hon. E. J. W ALSH replied-

(Bundaberg)

'' The hon. member should know that a prime factor in considering a proposal of tllis nature is its practicability from an economic viewpoint. The Port of Bowen, in relatively close proximity to Proserpine, is unable to meet its commitments even with the trade from the Proserpine District and it, obviously, would be unwise to invest Government funds on such an investigation at the present time.''

DREDGING OF MARY RIVER.

~Ir. PIZZEY (Isis) asked the Treasurer-

'' L; it <> fact that there is a minimum of onlv 3 feet 6 inches of water at low tide bet;veen the mouth of the Mary River and the southern boundary of the Isis elec­torate which adjoins the bank of the Mary River~ If so, what action does his Depart­ment propose to take to have that section of the river which forms the boundary of the Isis electorate dredged to make it safe for ships such as the 'Babinda' and 'Enfield'~''

Hon. E. J. W ALSH replied-

(Bundaberg)

" It would appear that the hon. member has made enquiries as to the condition of the Mary River through other sources and has satisfied himself that the depth of water is as indicated by him. In accord­ance with practice the hon. member will be advised of any work to be undertaken in his electorate on which he has made representations.''

CLASSROOMS, HOME HILL RURAL SCHOOL.

~lr. COBURN <Burdekin) asked the Secretary for Public Instruction-

'' As the corrugated iron-walled class­rooms under the Home Hill Rural School are inadequately ventilated, dark, and gloomy, and excessively hot in summer, will he kindly discontinue their use and provide more appropriate accommodation for such purposef"

302 yuestiona. [ASSEMBLY.] Overtime Paid in Govt. Depta.

Hon. G. H. DEVRIES (Gregory) replied-

'' There are two classrooms beneath the school building at Home Hill. They are each 28 feet by 26 feet and have com­paratively new wooden flooring. They are ceiled and the western side is lined. On 31 May, 1953, the District Inspector of Schools conducted a special investigation into the need for the provision of addi­tional classroom accommodation at this school and he reported that the two class­rooms underneath the school are large and airy and are considered to be suitable classrooms. The Regional Director of Education, Townsville supported the con­tention of the District Inspector of Schools, and he stated that it was not necessary to provide additional accommodation. There are 426 pupils in ten class groupings at this school. Including the two rooms underneath the building there are ten class­rooms. In view of the report furnished by the abovementioned Senior Officers of my Department, no action was taken to replace these classrooms, but another investigation will be made at an early date.''

POSTAL FACILITIES AT RAILWAY STATIONS.

~Ir. AIKENS (Mundingburra) asked the Minister for Transport-

"Is he aware that, at various railway stations in North Queensland where postal facilities including trunk-line telephone calls are provided for the people of the district by arrangement between the Rail­way Department and the Postmaster­General's Department, these services are often denied and serious inconvenience eaused the people because the station­master is spasmodically booked off duty and the station closed at the whim of the central trains-control officer to avoid pay­ment of overtime due to late train running' If so, will he take steps to ensure a discon­tinuance of this practice~''

Hon. J. E. DUGGAN (Toowoomba) replied-

"Postal work is undertaken at certain railway stations at the request of the Post­master-~eneral 's Department, and, as far as poss1ble, hours of attendance are :fixed to meet the requirements of both depart­ments. However, there are occasions at certain places when some departure from the flxed hours must be made to meet the requirements of trnin runnino- and the position is well understood b~; both the Postmaster-General's Department and tele­phone subscribers.''

TRAINING OF APPRENTICES.

~fr. EASTThiENT (Ithaca), for the Hon. J. H. 1rANN (Brisbane), without notice, asked the Secretary for Public Instruction-

" 1. Is it a fact that Queensland is one of the few places in the world where apprentices are forced to work an eight­hour day, occupy more time with travelll11g, and then attend night college for two hours:

'' 2. Will the Government give considera­tion to abolishing night-time college train­ing for apprentices and institute clay-time training in its place~"

Hon. G. H. DEVRIES replied-

(Gregory)

'' 1. It is certainly not true in Australia. In other parts of the world the forms of apprenticeship vary from that in this State and it is regretted that no complete answer is possible in the space of a few words. The answer, however, is that the statement is not in accordance with fact.

'' 2 The question of clay-time training is already before the Government as the result of the Commonwealth-States Apprentice­ship Inquiry recommendations.

"It will be noted that in that report the voting for and against was almost equal.

''There are many sides to this question. In Queensland for instance, most boys receive manual training instruction up to Scholarship standard while many receive an Industrial Junior training. A boy who has completed an Industrial Junior course is allowed one year off his technical training if he becomes a carpenter and some r8lnis­sions are made in other trades depending on the subjects taken. It is obvious, therefore, that an apprentice carpenter, for example, who has qualified in the Industrial Junior course received his first year college train­ing entirely during day-time while he was attending Technical High School.''

PAPER.S.

The following papers were laid on the table-

Orders in Council under the State Elec­tricity Commission Acts, 1937 to 1954.

Order in Council under the Southern Electric Authority of Queensland Act of 1952.

Order in Council under the Bureau of Industry Acts, 1932 to 1943, the Labour and Industry Act of 1946, and the State Development and Public Works Organisation Acts, 1938 to 1951.

OVERTIME PAID IN GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

RETURN TO ORDER.

The following paper was laid on the table-

Return to an order made by the House on 18 August last, on the motion of Mr. Pizzey, showing the amount of over­time paid in each Government Depart­ment (all funds) in 1953-1954.

Animals PTotection Acts [14 SEPTEMBER.) Amendment Bill. 303

ANIMALS PROTECTION ACTS AJI.IENDJIIIENT BILL.

IKITIATION.

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers-Secretary for Labour and Industry): I move-

'' That the House will, at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirableness of introducing a Bill to amend the Animals Protection Acts, 1925 to 1952, in a certain particular. ''

Motion agreed to.

INITIATION IN COhlhliTTEE.

(The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Clark, Fitzroy, in the chair.)

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Labour and Industry) (11.18 h.m.) : I move-

" That it is desirable that a Bill be introduced to amend the Animals Protec­tion. Acts, 1925 to 1952, in a certain particular.''

This is a very short Bill. It makes it an offence for any person to promote, or take pa;-t in, any shooting match at which any ammals are released from captivity for the purpose of being shot. The use of the term ''animal'' might seem somewhat anomalous but the uefinition in the principal Act is- '

''Any animal or bird of whatsoever species whether in a natural or domestic state: the term includes any domestic or captive animal.''

1t embraces birds, including live pigeons.

Similar legislation was passed in New S?uth Wales 12 mouths ago. I have a copy of an Act passed by the South Australian Governn~en~ a fortnight ago containing the same pnnc1ple.

::\Ir. Sparkes: It will stop live-pigeon shooting?

lUr. A. JONES: Yes. We do not include pigeons that may be regarded as a nuisance on buildings; all we are concerned with is to make it an offence to shoot a pigeon that has been released from captivity.

There has been a consiuerable amount of controversy in the Press regaruing this practice. I do not know of any place in Queensland other than Brisbane where the practice takes place. There has been rigeon­shooting in many plaees-in the western aucl northern pm·ts-bnt I do not know of any place where live-pigeon shooting takes place other than in Brisbane.

i1'Ir. Hiley: On the Downs.

Mr. A. JONES: I did not know that. There have been complaints reganling it over the past six or eight months, and I have had at least 20 or 30 petitions from people­including people on the Downs-in which they suggested legislation along the lines that I have outlined.

We have had considerable investigation into the matter. \Ve have had police attend­ing shoots that took place in Brisbane over the past four or five months, and our inquiries indicated that there is a certain amount of cruelty associated with the prac­tice, particularly the inability to retrieve birds that have been winged or have had a leg blown off. Some of these must get away; some may fly half a mile or a mile. I under­stand they had dogs to retrieve these birds,

• but some would get away. Generally speak­ing, I think every hon. member will agree that legislation along the lines suggested is desirable. When any degree of cruelty creeps into sport it is no longer a real sport and it is necessary to eliminate it.

)Ir. SJ)arkes: They can get the same sport with clay pigeons.

lUr. A. JONES: About 90 per cent. of the pigeon shooting in Queensland would be with clay pigeons. I know there has been some difficulty for pigeon clubs to get live birds. That is all that is in the Bill.

Dr. NOBLE (Yeronga) (11.23 a.m.l: I am glau that the Government have brought do\\·n this legislation which, I am sure, will be supported 'vholehearterlly by every member on this side. As a matter of fact I have been approached-and I suppose most other hon. members have also been approached­by a number of my constituents who hayc asked H'e to hring t'.!ol mat',,,,. before the House. I harl intended to clo so if the Government lwrl not brought down this legislation. This is not a sport; it is a very disgraceful and even murderous business. It is not onlY the slaughtering of pigeons but the maimi11g of helpless creatures. Tt is a business, not a sport, because the poor bird has no chance. It is not a test of marksmnnship. I under­stand these pigeons are thrown out of a trajector.

Mr. Sparkes: No, that is with clay pigeon shooting.

Dr. NOBLE: At any rate in this case the bird hovers for a moment ancl it is more or less a sitting shot. I believe very few get away. From what I have been told, the birds are maimed ancl fall to the grouncl. Perhaps a leg or a wing is blown off. Boys are employecl to collect these pigeons and bring them back. Forthwith they have their necks wrung. I understand some 400 to 500 pigeons <lie- in this wa:v in one shoot. Most of these meetings take place on Sunday mornings.

The worst feature about pigeon-shooting meetings is theiT association with gambling. I do not think that many people would attend them if the gambling element 'vas not present. Those who go merely for gambling, to make money out of the maiming of live birds are worse than the murderous swine who shoot the birds down. The gamblers Pxpect to make money out of crueltv. When the world was born, the huma,:t being was given dominance over the animals ani! birds, to protect them, not to maim them as these live pigeon-shooters do at these meetings.

304 Animals Protection Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

I believe also that at some of these pigeon­shoots ample supplies of beer are provided and I have wondered whether such beer was supplied free of cost or whether it was sold to the shooters. If it is sold what is the Licensing Commission doing, 'allowing the sale of beer without a licence at pigeon­shoots~ After the passing of this legislation, any person who attends a pigeon-shoot and is found guilty should be given a gaol term without the option of a fine. That should be ~he penalty. This is not. a sport at all; it 1s a very murderous busmess indeed. The character of those employed, especially the children, who collect the maimed pigeons must be very badly affected. That is a very bad aspect of the pigeon-shoots-in this so­called civilised age, the bringing of children to the shoots to take part in them.

lUr. A. Jones: Many of them use dogs.

Dr. NOBLE: I am told they use the boys too. If any person wants to indulge in the sport of shooting, let him use clay pigeons.

lUr. SP ARKES (Aubigny) (11.28 a. m.) : I agree with what my friend the hon. member for Yeronga has said to a certain extent but at the same time I cannot agree that it is quite as drastic as he has said. Pigeon-shoots in the bush are not conducted along these lines and here I might say that my own son won the championship at Dalby on Saturday last by shooting 15 birds in a row. Of course they were clay pigeons. Pigeon-shooting is a very clean, good sport. At these meetings in the bush they may have a bottle of beer or so but I have never seen any b~~er sold at a bush shoot meeting. Let us be quite frank. The hon. member for Yeronga is speaking of shoots somewhere near Brisbane. In the West where men are men, I do not know _of any cleaner sport than clay-pigeon shootmg and any attempt to try to kill this sport would run counter to the wishes of these people. Of course, it has been said that when shooting at clay pigeons the rifleman knows virtually the course of the clay pigeon. It is a mechanical pigeon.

l\Ir. Aikens: Once the rifleman gets the direction of the clay pigeon he knows where it will fly.

l\Ir. SPARKES: I do not know much about it. I know that some of the riflemen claim that the use of the live bird varies the sport but, unfortunately, as my friend, the hon. member for Yeronga has aptly stated, some of the birds are only maimed. N a tmally the sportsman is out to shoot as many birds as he can in order to win the trophy. He attempts to hit the birds on the wing. It takes a good shot to bring them down. I hope that there is to be no further restrictions with regard to clay-pigeon shoot­ing. That would not be in the best interests of the State.

At one time I was keen on watching dogs chasing live hares. Of course, there was an escape for the hare if he was good enough to beat the dogs, and in nine cases out of ten he did beat them. The pigeon, too, is

allowed to escape once it gets outside the range of the gun, but it very seldom beats the gun. The hon. member for Yeronga is referring to pigeon shooting round the cities while I am speaking of the clay pigeon shooting in the country. This is a wise ,amendment, although I do not think we shall ever be able to do anything to prevent people from betting if they want to bet.

JUr. A. Jones: Some have sweepstakes.

Mr. SP ARKES: There is no great harm in that. It is not encouraging public betting. It is simply a sweepstake amongst the shooters themselves and I do not think there is a great deal of harm in it.

JUr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (11.32 a.m.) : When I was a boy in Charters 'rowers I, with other young fellows about the place, made a fair amount of pocket money for weekend spending by trapping pigeons round the various buildings of Charters Towers and selling them to the pigeon-shooting clubs. They held their shoots mainly out near Corinda. Even as a boy, when I was interested only in the financial return from it, I was somewhat struck by the fact that pigeon-shooting clubs would not take the homing type of pigeon or the tumbling type. They wanted only the plain old domesticated type of pigeon which, as the hon. member for Aubigny said, just fluttered away from the trap. In those days, the traps were made in the form of a pyramid, each side of the pyramid being separate and distinct. There would be about six spread out at equal distances, and the shooters shot off different marks. When the man behind the shooter pulled a lever, the shooter did not know which trap was going to fall. The four sides of the pyramid would collapse together and the pigeon would try to get away.

There was quite a lot of betting on pigeon shooting in those days, and I believe there is a good deal of it today. Not only do the shooters put in so much money and shoot for a sweepstake as a prize, but bookmakers are there and they bet on the kill with the first barrel only. So that, in order to win a bet from a bookmaker, the kill must be done with the first barrel. A second-barrel kill does not count.

I have no brief for the pigeon. I think it is a very untidy and dirty bird. When we were aldermen of the City of 'fownsville, we paid a man to shoot pigeons from round the post office and Council buildings in the city of Townsville with a .22 rifle. He cut off the bullets until they were just a sliver of lead. He was a very good shot from the First World War and he cleaned out most of the dirty pigeons from round the post office and other buildings in Flindors Street, 'l'ownville.

:iJ'Ir. A. Jones: They could not have been clay pigeons. They are not nearly so dirty.

:ilir. AIKENS: We tried to get the clay pigeon to cross with the live pigeon, but apparently there was some biological diffi­culty, so we did the next best thing and

Animals Protection Acts [14 SEPTEMBER.) Amendment Bill. 305

employed a man to shoot pigeons from the post office and adjacent buildings. (Laughter.)

While I am on the question of the post office clock, I remember, as a young man in 1919, coming down to Townsville with the western football team. We hit Townsville right in the middle of that very violent 1919 meatworkers' strike. The meatworkers raided the hardware stores--

The CHAIRlUAN: Order! There is nothing about strikers or stores in the Bill.

~Ir. AIKENS: I am going to get right onto pigeon shooting, Mr. Olark.

I remember being in Flinders Street, Townsville, when the meatworkers were boasting of the prowess one man had with his gun when he was shooting pigeons off the Post Office clock and demonstrating his marksmanship in case the police started any­thing rough. That particular shot is now a member of the front ministerial benches of this Government. (Laughter). However, that is by the way. I should say that the shooting of pigeons from buildings and in their native state to get rid of tf1em is an entirely different matter from shooting the trapped pigeon-putting the ordinary pigeon in a trap and shooting him when he moves on the release of the trap. As I said the pigeon that is liberated from these traps is not the tumbling or homing type but the ordinary domestic pigeon. As soon as that pigeon rises from the ground he can be shot by the man with the gun. He does not have to fly a distance or rise in the air to any height. As soon as he lifts his feet off the ground and commences to fly he can be shot at. The man who shoots his pigeon with the :first barrel collects his bet from the book­maker. Because domestic pigeons have no chance with the organised shooting of them on the ranges I am in favour of the Bill. The ordinary pigeon is a dirty bird and the sooner he is wiped out from buildings and homes the better.

1\Ir. HILEY (Coorparoo) (11.37 a.m.): Nature has a very cruel side to it and I think that every bird, perhaps the pigeon more than any other bird, has to experience the constant struggle for survival from the time the egg is laid. The nesting habit of the pigeon lends that bird to attack by a large number of enemies whilst the egg is in the nest or the bird in the fledgling stage. The adult pigeon under natural conditions runs the gauntl:t of the hawk and the dingo, and the domest1c cat gone wild, which is one of its worst enemies. The pigeon has to experience attacks by the snake, and the rat ,,-ha will attack nesting pigeons with ease because the pigeon nest is not built on the tip of a slender branch but wheTe the snake am1 the rat can reach it. The pigeon looks for a suitable nesting position on a substantial ledge of a building. I should say that nature ordains that the pigeon has to face a con­stant war for survival. That strikes me as being a very natural order of things but I must confess that I have disliked for some time-I am perfectly frank, I have often shot

pigeons-the shooting of the pigeons that are led like lambs to the slaughter when they are released from traps.

Mr. Aikens: Only the tamest of the-m.

Mr. HILEY: I do not agree with the· hon. member because the man who wants an easy mark has the clay pigeon to shoot at and would prefer the clay to the live bird. 'l'he man who wants a veTy easy mark will not bother about the live bird ,,-hen he can have the clay pigeon. 'l'he hon. member might nod his head but he is wrong.

.l\Ir. Aikens: They would not take the homers and the tumblers in my time.

1\Ir. HILEY: That is some 20 or 30 years ago. The pigeon shooter wants the bird that twists and rolls on the 'ving as the lively bird does. Because of that, I feel that the Minister is doing the Tight thing in imposing this ban.

But let us be perfectly clear as to what we are doing. Do not let us be carried completely away by allegations of cruelty and the open advocation on the part of some people of the prevention of the destructiorr even of pests. I know that one of our news­papers has for years been waging a campaign against live pigeon-shooting, but I think it has gone to stupid extremes. It has attacked people even for shooting flying foxes. For instance, towards the close of the war a great colony of flying foxes took possession of Brisbane's botanical gardens. They fouled the pool where the ducks and other water birds are kept, and the bamboos and willows were filled with hanging masses of them. The Brisbane City Council sought the assist­ance of a number of men who like shooting and supplied them with the necessary cart­ridges. I was one of the men who were asked and it was about the only time I had the pleasure of shooting with cartridges provided by somebody else. We went down to the botanical gardens one Saturday morn­ing at the crack of dawn, and the gates were locked so that no-one could get in and run the risk of being accidentally shot. We were, told that we had to :finish shooting by 7.30 a.m. We shot about 700 flying foxes and the next day the newspaper to which I have, referred attacked us for our wanton cruelty.

1\Ir. Aikens: Other local authorities have done that.

1\Ir. HILEY: That is so. I have as little compunction in destroying

a flying fox, or any other pest, as I would in killing a cockroach.

1\Ir. CoJmrn: Destroying it, but not wounding it and leaving it to die slowly.

iUr. RII1EY: The council made arrange­ments for some of its officers to be in attend­ance, and the minute the shoot was over they collected the flying foxes and carted them away. That was done before the gates were opened.

Flying foxes have to be destroyed because tl:ey are pests. It is quite possible for Pigeons to become a great nuisance in any city. Only recently I was in Toowoomba on

306 Animals Protection Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

a Saturday afternoon and I heard a good deal of shooting round the big silos at the back of the brewery, near Margaret street. I made inquiries and was informed that because there was a lot of grain in the nearby railway yards, it was necessary periodically to shoot the pigeons as they v. ere a nuisance.

No man who is shooting at birds can get more than a certain percentage of immedi­ate kills in the air. Invariably a large percentage of the birds that come down are only wounded and the dog brings them back. I refer now to heavily-wounded birds who lose their power of flight. Of course, the most humane thing is to take a dog with you. He will recover very quickly 90 per cent. of the birds who are brought down. They can then he put out of their misery. The bird that worries the shooter is the one that is injured only lightly and does not fall within reach. 'rhat hazard is bad enough in field shooting, but it is infinitely worse in the case of caged birds.

I predict that before this city is much older something will have to be done about the pigeon menace. Brisbane has become a fairly large exporter of wheat. Grain trucks come into the Hamilton cold stores and wheat is lying around there in barrow loads. Pigeons nest . in the big buildings in the heart of ~he city and make regular flights to the Hamilton cold stores. They oat the wheat that is lying freely around· there and then return to the city.

On ~ur own City Hall, one of the buildings of IYh.lCh w: are very proud, you will fini! the disfigurmg marks of the pigeons and they present a serious problem. I know that some cities have built a tradition around the pigeons that nest in their public squares. In Trafa~gar Square in London, for inst::mce, the pigeons haYe become so quiet and so tame thnt it is one of the sights of the Square to see the kidclies, and some of the older people, too, bu;ving feed from the regular stalls and feeding tlw pigeons which perch on their shoulders and heads. 'At the same time, when I looked nround at the builclings bordering Trafnlgnr Square and saw the mess the pigeonR made I must confess that if it were my decision I should order tlJP removal of the pigeons from the heart of London. I think they are spoiling some of the beautiful olc1 buildings in Trafalgar Square nnd I shoulc1 be sorry indeed to ~'eo the pigeon infestation of our main city buildings in Brisbane carried to the poin't of making Brisbane a shabby and soiled citv. Sooner or later something will have to be done about these pigeons. As long as Brisb~:r;e rcmnins a port shipping large quanbhPs of wheat, the problem will be with us. I do not know whether anv other hon. members have seen the quantities of wheat Rpilt alongside the cranes at the wharf but it is ouite common to Ree the lads trundling little hanclcarts and shovelling up the wheat, mixed with a littiR dirt of course, and taking it a1vav to feed their fowls nt home. Under those conclitions the pigeons have nn open go. J nToy;hesv that 1w will hnYe a serious pigeon prnhlem ns long as we ship wheat from the port.

I believe, from what the Minister has said, that he will do nothing to deal with this pest; his only concern is the shooting of live birds released from c:1gcs or traps. 1 am entirely with him there.

It has been said that this is a problem only in Brisbane. 'l'hat is not quite right, although it is substantially so. Some shoots on the Downs, mainly at ·warwick, have attracted considerable publicity. I think the Minister is bound to hnve on his file some of the newspaper reports of shoots that have taken place outside Warwick within the last two or three years. I remember one cele­brated occasion when a shoot on a yery large scale was organised at Charleville. Big sweepstakes were held; handsome trophies were provided and famous shots came from the New England Tableland, the Darling DoiYns, and from all over the place to participate. Unfortunately, by some mis­chance, when the train arrived it was found that somebody bad forgotten to load the pigeons. 'l'here was a great panic. All the bookmnker~ were there ready to field and all the pmticipants Toady to shoot and not a pigeon among them. There was only one thing for it. They delayed the stnTt of the shoot and set the lads of Charlcville to \York trapping galahs. They soon caught several hundred galahs, which they proposed to release from the traps inslend of pigeons. I do not know if nny hon. members have hnndled wild galahs but the first thing the organisers had on their hands was a sit-down strike by the boys in charge of the traps. They were being bitten and chewed by the galahs. Hon. members from the \V est will know just how powerful a galah 's beak is. So the commit­tee had to meet again and decide on extra pnyment to the boys as a sort of risk money. Thnt settled the problem aml soon the first galah was released from the trap and quite a well-known shot prepared to shoot. The trap was sprung and np fluttered a galah, quite slowly and heavily; you know the way they take off. Bang, and there was a cloud of feathers, but the bird was still flying. Bang, and there was another cloud of feathers but the bird still went on. Before five binls 1vere released the book­mnkers were calling odds of 20 to 1. The birds 1vere so tough that it was impossible to bring them down with the pigeon-shot. Someone rliscovered No. 2 shot at a shop and then the bookmakers did not know who was using the heavy shot and who was not, and the whole competition collapsed.

r~ive-1Jin1 shoots haye occurred in other parts of Queensland, but they are not very prevalent. For the man who likes to shoot, the clay pigeon provides all that he 1vants. No-one can sn;v that that is not perfecil;v reasonable. It is completely reasonable and therP is no reason wh;v anyone should urge that live hirds sho11ld be retnined. ·when it comes to fiPld-shooting ;'on have an entirely different background and circumstances. In field-shooting ;vou have not a congregation of a great number of guns into a narrow space; the ,guns are scattered over large areas. In field-shooting you have the health­ful exercise. The field-shooting of ducks or

Animals Protection, &c., Bill. [14 SEPTEMBER.] Wages Acts Amendment Bill. 307

quail or pigeons presents an entirely di_fferent picture. You have not a congregatiOn. of men with bottles of beer and the gamblmg that you have in the case of organised pigeon­shoots. In field-shooting you have the healthful exercise; and that is something that I hope will never stop.

The thing that concerns me in a country relatively as young as Australia is that '"e have youngsters growing up in a primary­producing country who do not know from which side to approach a horse or how to milk a cow. We should strive to preseTVe, to keep alive, open-field sports that provide opportunities for young people to learn the conditions of nature and get exercise in the open country. That does not apply to organised pigeon -shoots where there are per­Imps 50 guns on half an acre of land. We should strive to reserve the right to a man to walk through an open paddock to engage in shooting. Regarding the shooting of birds in the open, while it is true that man is a new enemy, the bird every day runs the hazard of hawks and foxes and other natural enemies. The bird has at least better than an even chance; it has the whole of the open space in which to move.

Mr. COBURN (Burdekin) (11.54 a.m.) : I commend the Minister for introducing this legislation. We should not countenance any­thing in the nature of cruelty. I believe that pests should be destroyed as long as we destroy them quickly and not let them live for hours or days in excruciating pain. When I lived at Maidavale snakes were numerous. When I saw one I always looked for some­thin,g with which to destroy it, but I would not willingly inflict any injury that would cause unnecessary suffering. The snake has to be destroyed because it would injure others. I realise that under certain circum­stances pigeons can be a tremendous nuisance. They are in certain areas in which I live. One of the worst features of pigeons is their custom of dropping on roofs thus fouling the water to be used for domestic purposes, particularly in districts where water is stored in tanks. If such pigeons can be destroyed without causing them suffering there should be no opposition to their destruction. Of course the pigeon does help our agricultural industries by its destruction of pests that are a menace to fanners.

JUr. Hiley: He is purely a grain-eater.

lUr. CO BURN: But the whole point of this legislation is, as the Minister has stated, to ensure that crueltv will not be inflicted on the birds and consequently it seeks to prohibit the use of live birds in shooting competitions. In mv district there is a gun club which holcls competitions regularly. It is quite satisfied to use clay pigeons. I ha,·e seen excellent shooters miss such pigeons as they hurtle through the air. That would indicate to me that it is not quite so easy to hit the clay pigeon as some might imagine. However, as these clubs have a medium by which they can carry on the sport in which they are interested without making use of live birds, it is

very desirable that we pro?i_bit the use ?f ~ive birds. I commend the Mm1ster for bnngmg down this Bill.

Motion (Mr. A. Jones) agreed to.

Resolution reported.

FIRST READING.

Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. A. J ones, read a first time.

WAGES ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION.

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers-Secretary for Labour and Industry): I move-

" That the House will, at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirableness of introducing a Bill to amend the Wages Acts, 1918 to 1937, in a certain particular."

Motion agreed to.

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE.

(The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Clark, Fi tzroy, in the chair.)

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Labour and Industry) (12 noon): I move-

'' That it is desirable that a Bill be intro­duced to amend the Wages Acts, 1918 to 1937, in a certain particular.' '

The purpose of the amendment is to correct an anomaly under the Wages Acts. The ·wages Acts contain safeguards for payment of wages to employees, which are additional to the safeguards and procedure contained in the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Acts. The Wages Acts are designed mainly to protect wages due to employees of con­tractors. 'l'hey prescribe that an employee of a contractor whose wages are unpaid may attach moneys due to the contractor by the person for whom the work in question was done. At the present time there is no pro­tection under the Acts for any employee who is in receipt of wages exceeding £400 a year. This limit of £400 was fixed in 1918 when the basic wage was approximately lls. a day or slightly over £3 a week. As the present basic ·wage is £11 5s., there are very few workers who now have the protection afforded by the Wages Acts.

\V e sc·ek to increase the sum from £400 to £1,500. As I pointed out, when the £400 was inserted in the Act the basic wage was approximately £3 a week. Today it is £11 5s., so that to increase the £400 pro­portionately, we require a maximum of £1,500. As hon. members know, there are man:v employees of contractors and sub-con­tractors and others, who are not covered bv anv award of the Industrial Court. We f~el that these employees should ha>-e some protection under the Acts and we seek to cover them by increasing the maximum amount for which action can be taken to £1,500. Some

308 Apprentices and Minors [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

contractors are making £30 and £40 a week today and they should be protected. Although the Act is not aYailed of in many instances, it did happen recently that one person was unable to sue for money owing to him because the amount inYolved was the equivalent of £600 a year. We are now seek­ing to protect such persons, and the Bill contains only the one principle.

)Ir. )fULLER (Fassifern) (12.4 p.m.): It would seem from the Minister's explana­tion that the Bill is necessary and desirable because in those days we must have some regard for the depreciated value of money.

A few clays ago we introduced a Bill to increase the jurisdiction of magistrates courts because of the present lower value of money.

Changing conditions make this Bill very necessary. Whilst I support the proposal I hope that the Government will be consistent and carry their policy right through for the benefit of the whole of the community. If it has been found necessary to amend the Magistrates Courts Acts to deal with the lesser value of money I hope that the Govern­ment will be fair to every section of the community because we in the country think that we are suffering a grave injustice on account of the lesser value of money. Our properties are no better than they were years ago because valuations are higher. I com­mend the Bill but at the same time I ask the Government to assist every section in the community in the same way. Every employee should be given tho right to be paid what he is justly entitled to.

lUr. TURNER (Kelvin Grove) (12.6 p.m.): This amendment will bring consider­able satisfaction to employees holding posi­tions in warehouses in particular and in some of the retail stores. Men in charge of departmental stores are exempt from award conditions because of the wages they get and they have been told in some instances that they are not entitled to long service leave. This has created dissatisfaction. A man who is getting perhaps 5s. or 6s. a week above the award rate has been told that he is not eligible for long service leave. By this amending legislation these men will be brought under the Act and thus become entitled to the leave. On their behalf I congratulate the Minister on this legislation.

Motion (Mr. A. Jones) a,greed to. Resolution reported.

FIRST READING.

Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. A. J ones, read a first time.

APPRENTICES AND MINORS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

SECO~D READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE.

Debate resumed from 8 September (see p. 261) on Mr. Den·ics 's motion-

" That the Bill be now read a second time.''

lUr. PIZZEY (Isis) (12.9 p.m.) : When I spoke on the Address in Reply debate I said it was of importance that a State like Queens­land with a small population should get the maximum use of the manpower available. We must get the greatest possible skill out of our young people. Nowhere is this more important than in the recruitment and train­ing of probationers and minors, particularly apprentices.

The apprenticeship system is a very old one, and during various stages of history legislation has been enacted to control the training of apprentices. During World \Var II. Australia found itself bacllv in need of skilled tradesmen. Subsequently thereto, in about 1950, with the great industrial develop­ment of Australia it was found that industry generally, and Governments, were very worried about the lack of recruits for the various skillecl trades. 'rhis Bill aims to improve generally the welfare of apprentices. So worried were the various Governments at the time that they set up a Commonwealth­States Apprenticeship Inquiry Committee, which toured Australia and took e\ idence from countless people. It recently issued its report. I had hoped that the Minister would have been able to include some of its recommendations in the Bill. I agree, of course, that this State has a very good Apprenticeship Committee. Perhaps it has already examined the recommendations to which I refer and has found that most of them are already incorporated in this State's legislation.

During the period of over-full employment it was very difficult to get apprentices for the skilled trades and that was not a good thing for the future of the trades. A proniium ~vas placed upon the labour of unskilled youths. Today we have full employment-not over-full employment-and the position has improved considerably-more and more parents and youths are realising the greater security of a skilled trade-but even so, it is estimated that until 1960 we shall be short of apprentices in many major industries.

The report of the committee to which I have just referred gave praise to Queensland's system of having the Director of Technical Education as a member of the Apprenticeship Executive. His help has been invaluable, and the committee recommended the adoption of the practice in the other States.

The first amendment deals with the employ­ment of minors, very few of whom are engaged in industry in Queensland. I do not know what trades are involved, but in onlv a few is the employment of minors permitted. In the Act as it stands at present, the employment of minors is the responsi­bility only of the employer. He rannot employ a minor without approval. They can be employed under certain conditions.

lUr. Aikens: So many minors to so many seniors.

ilfr. PIZZEY: Not that at all. That is actually so many apprentices to so many seniors. Minors are different; they do not need the same training and skill and in certain

Apprentices and Minors [14 SEPTEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 309

industries youths, without apprenticeship, may be engaged. The old Act simply said that no employer should employ without permission. Now the onus seems to be placed on both. This amending legislation provides that ''a person shall not employ nor shall a minor so eugage himself.'' The parent of a minor is to be held equally responsible if he places his lad where he knows he should not be employed without the special permission of the executive, subject to certain conditions. Although the Minister said in his second reading speech that it was only to avoid ambiguity in CK.se of legal action, I think it changes the responsibility a little.

The next amendment is really just a change of won1s, suggested by the Minister to over­come any possibility of ambiguity should there be legal action.

Then there is quite a lengthy amendment by way of repeal of an old provision and the insertion of a new one dealing with the powers of the executive and group committee to delegate powers. The original Act gave the executive power to delegate powers and authority to the group committee, subject to disallowance, of course, by the executive. The chairman of the executive is also chair­man of the trade group committee. Now this power of delegation seems to me to be considerably broadened. It has been said that it is only an attempt to avoid ambiguity so as to clarify the powers of the various execu­tives and their committees. However, the powers of delega tiou now go not only to the group committee but also to the chairman of the group committee or any sub-committee of the executive and, further, the group com­mittee itself has power to delegate to a sub­committee. This seems to be an extension of the powers of delegation.

I may be wrong in this and I hope the Minister will clarify it for me but what con­cerns me is that a subsequent clause sets out the power of disallowance, but only for any act, matter, or thing, done by any group committee. It does not speak of a disal­lowance of any act of a chairman of a group committee or of a sub-committee, although those powers of delegation go to them. It does give the power to revoke any authority or power handed on tc those other committees or the chairman; but the next clause of the Bill, which is the same as it was before, simply speaks of the power of disallowance of any action of the group committee. Is that to be read as meaning that the power of disallowance by the executive, which is the governing body, you might say, is also a power to disallow any act of the chairman of the group committee or of any sub-com­mittee?

The other amendments are fairly straight­forward. One deals with sick leave. In the 1948 amendment provision was made for two weeks' sick leave for each completed year of service or two days for every two months' service with the stipulation that the employer would not be responsible for the payment of more than four weel's' sick leave in any one year. Apparently in the drafting of that

legislation probationers and minors were over­looked. The Minister now seeks to bring probationers and minors into line with apprentices.

The amendment is retrospective. During his second reading speech the Minister said that an employer could be compelled to pay for unlimited annual leave and sick leave owing to a minor or probationer. In the case of apprentices, there are cases where the employer could apply because of overpayment in connection with sick leave, if it is retro­spective. On the other hand there may be cases where minors or probationers are entitled to sick leave that they did not get.

The last principle relates to a claim for unpaid wages. Previously an apprentice, pro­bationer, or minor could claim only for unpaid wages for a period of six months. I think it is sound to bring this Act into line with the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Acts by allowing them to claim for :mpaid wages for a period of 12 months.

The Opposition agree entirely with these machinery amendments that seck to adjust anomalies that have existed since the amend­ment of the Act in 1948. I did hope that we might have heard something about the very inwortant committee of inquiry. Good as the Act may be, I hope the Minister will be able to make it better still.

JUr. SKINNER (Somerset). (12.23 p.m.): In contributing to the debate I do not wish to take the prerogative from the Minister of replying to questions put up by Opposi­tion speakers. As one who served an appren­ticeship largely during the period prior to the introduction of the Apprentices and Minors Act and partly during the period when apprentices "·ere controlled by the Industrial Court, I feel that I can speak with some degree of authority. I wish to refer to the high standard that has been achieved since the introduction of the Apprenticeship Act of 1924. Prior to its introduction when an industrial dispute took place in an indus­try in which an apprentice was employed he could lose his employment although he had no voting power but the Act now provides that the apprentice cannot be involved in an industrial dispute. An apprentice is bound by the indentures he signs. Under the prese;1t system, wages are fixed by the executive com­mittee of the apprenticeship group, and they at;;J fixed on ·a percentage of the tradesman's rate.

I recall that when I commenced my apprmticeship in 1926 apprentices in their first year got approximately 25s. a week. After the depression period, with the lower­ing of the wage standard, appTentices were indentured at the lower rate of 14s. to 16s. a week in their iiTst year. However, since then, with the reasonable approach to npprenticeship standards, wages and condi­tions by the Executive Committee, the apprentice entering an industry to-day in his first year commences on a wage of £3 15s. a week or, probably, slightly more than that. That is a distinct improve­ment on previous conditions. It ie interestinl

310 Apprentices and Minors [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

to note the rates of pay for apprentices now. He gets the following percentage of the tradesmen's rates:-

First year Second year Third year Fourth year Fifth year

These rates are very satisfactory.

Per cent. 26 34} 45 66~ 82~

Comparing the conditions of aJlprenticeships in the other States with those in Queens­land, we find that in New South Wales the apprentice is still under the administration of the Arbitration Court. Trade committees are appointed and they indicate to the Court the wage standards and conditions that should apply. In New South Wales there is an award for apprentices in every trade, with different rates for each group, such as engineering, blacksmithing, carpentry. Recently an Apprenticeship Inquiry Commit­tee toured the Commonwealth of Australia to correlate evidence to bring about uniformity in apprenticeship conditions throughout the Commonwealth. Although I believe that uniformity in apprenticeship conditions can be obtained and is desirable, there cannot be complete uniformity, particularly of wages, because of the varying rates of pay for tradesmen in the various States. But uniformity of percentage of rates is possible. If the recommendations of the Apprenticeship Inquiry Committee are given effect to and an advisory committee is established in each State, acting only as an advisory committee to the existing Executive Coll1lllittee and the Apprenticeship Committee in this State, it would not superimpose itself on the existing Executive Committee. There would be no taking away of any of the existing powers. It would be purely an advisory committee. It would be composed of those engaged in an industry who would have a full knowledge of working conditions and suchlike. It, therefore, would be in a very favourable position to advise the Executive Committee.

I commend the Minister and the Govern­ment for bringing down the legislation. It will mean an improvement of present con­ditions, particularly where it provides that an employer must keep a wages book show­ing the rates of pay, hours worked, overtime, etc., by any apprentice.

A cursory examination of tl:Je Bill might indicate that it is proposed to depart fr-om the original intention of the Apprenticeship Act in which certain powers were delegated to the chairman of the Executive Committee or the Advisory Group Committee.

I am confident that the fears expressed by previous speakers are groundless because, after having studied the Bill thoroughly and having discussed it with certain departmental officers, I am firmly of the opinion that all it seeks to do is to validate something that h~s been done by apprenticeship group com­nuttees and the executive committee for some time. As I was once a representative on a group committee, I feel that I can speak with authority on the procedure. All the amending legislation seeks to do by Clause 4 is to give the Executive Committee

the right to delegate to the chairman of a sub-committee or group committee the power of the chairman of the Executive Committee in certain instances. The effect of this will be that once the Executive Committee has established a principle the chairman of a group committee will have power to apply that principle to similar cases and so avoid the necessity of requiring the Executive Com­mittee to consider and decide upon perhaps hundreds of separate cases all related to the same matter. There can be little cause for fear where that amendment is concerned.

I commend the :Minister for having brought down the other amendments relating to such matters as sick pay. I am confident that the Bill as a whole will meet with the whole­hearted approval of not only the group com­mittees and others controlling apprentices but also the trades union movement which has always been interested in the welfare of apprentices, and has played an important part in improving working conditions of apprentices throughout the State.

~Ir. NICHOLSON (Murrumba) (12.33 p.m.): With other hon. members, I agree that the proposed amendments are most desir­able. We shall be able to discuss the clauses a little more fully in committee. I agree with the hon. member for Isis that other desirable features could have been included. For instance, although the apprentice may be fully protected against exploitation by the employer, there is no protection for the employer against exploitation by the appren­tice. :Many apprentices apply themselves assiduously to their work because they realise that their future depends on what they do during their apprenticeship, but there are others who merly look upon their apprenticeship as a job and do not even study conscientiously. I suggest tha~ we should have power to take action against an apprentice who does not apply himself to his apprenticeship, or study as he should do.

I have had the experience of apprentices who were slow with their studies. The unfor­tunate part is that a lad who fails in his first year, goes into the second year with an increase in wages. I had an unhappy experience with an apprentice, an excellent little chap in himself, but he would not study. He could not pass his examinations although he was good on the practical side and very honest, although an apprentice completes his time in the radio industry he has no pro­tective indentures or credentials. I think some action might be taken in that matter. No employer likes to say to an apprentice, "You dicl not pass your examination and therefore I ~will not give you an increase in ~wages.''

~Jr. Robin son: In many cases the employer stands in the lad's light.

~Ir. NICHOLSON: The apprentice of today is no longer the billy-boiler or the floor-sweeper. He has a definite place in industry, and the sooner he realises that the more assiduously he will apply himself to a recognition of his apprenticeship conditions. As the hon. member for Isis said the avail­ability of jobs, particularly in unskilled call­ings caused many apprentices to pay

Apprentices and Minors [14 SEPTEMBER.) Acts Amendment Bill. 311

insufficient attention to their apprenticeship conditions. The lads must Tealise th.at they must apply themselves if they want to get on in the world and make their future secure. I have said before that when an apprentice finishes his time he has no pro­tection and I refer particularly to the radio and refrigeration industries. 'When a boy finishes his time and becomes a journeyman he does not get a licence. Those two inclus­tries should be gazetted as skilled industries; they have no protection at present. Some time ago legislation was passed in this House to protect car-owners by requiring that garages display on a board the number of A-Grade mechanics employed by them. I am now making a compaTison between that business aml the mclio all(l refrigeration industries. \Yhen an apprentice finishes his time in these tracle,; he has no credentials other than that he has finished his time. H" need not be licensed in order to carry on as a mechanic, and so the man who has had five or six years in the trade has no protec­tion against the self-taught tradesman who sets up in businosss alongside him. 'l'he man who has served his apprenticeship and gained the requisite knowledge would ultimately ·win out, no doubt.

An apprentice in the radio industry has absolutely no protection when he completes his time, with the result that there is no incentive to entCT it. A man who has servecl his time in the electrical trade must have a licence to carry on his trade. Tf it is necessary for a man to have a licence before he can wire a house, then ono who repairs a radio set, which carries the same voltage, should also have a licence. A radio set that has been interfered vvith by an unquali­fied person could easily become a lethal weapon. I commend to the Minister the suggestion that radio mechanics be licensed.

The refrigeration industry is in exactly the same position as the radio industry.

Thir. SPEAKER: Order! I have allowed the hon. member some latitude, but I ask him to confine his remarks to the principles of the Bill.

JUr. NICHOLSON: These amendments have been brought down to encourage the granting of apprenticeships, and I feel that in asking for these things I am dealing with the principles of the Bill. I am asking for the protection of apprentices in the radio and refrigeration trades.

The protection of an apprentice should be dealt with from a long-range point of view rather than just for the time being. It should extend to the days after he has com­plete<l his apprenticeship. Much valuable machinery could be spoiled by the inter­ference of a novice, particularly in the refrigeration industry, and I hold the view that the refrigeration mechanic, as well as the radio mechanic, should be licensed after he serves his time.

As a further incentive to apprentices to a pnlv themselves to their various trades, I feel " that the Government and industry generally could do a great deal by holding

what is known as an apprenticeship week, for the displays of the work of the apprentices.

]fr. SPEAKER: Order!

Thir. NICHOLSON: Before very long a display of this State's industries will be held at the Queensland Industries Fair, and I think an approach could be made to the com­mittee in control of it to include an appren­ticeship section.

Another encouragement to apprentices­and this applies particularly to those who have to travel a long distance to attend classes-would be the provision of a cafeteria at the college.

:ur. SPEAKER: Order! I have allowed the hon. member a good deal of latitude. I again ask him to confine himself to the principles contained in the Bill.

Thir. NICHOLSON: Unfortunately we did not have very much opportunity to discuss the Bill in the first- reading stage, and I thought 1 might be able to bring up t~ese matters at this stage. However, the vanous amendments will be dealt with in Committee, and I shall postpone any further remarks till then.

Thir. BROSNAN (Fortitude Valley) (12.45 p.m.): These very commendable amendments have as their purpose the stream­lining of a very efficient an<i effective piece of legislation that vms introduced by a Labour Government.

I should like to emphasise that this is typical of the legislation that emanates from the Labour Government and it is also typical of the Government's desire to do their best for the greatest number. It is the complete answer and is in distinct contl·adiction, to the as~ertions of the leader of the Liberal Party that we are a Socialist, or to use his words a Communist Government and a dic­tatorship. This legislation provides for co-operation between employeT and employee under the chairmanship of an appointed chairman.

The amendment that seems to worry some hon. members of the Opposition provides for a delegation of powers but it is designed merely to provide a more flexible method incorpora­ting what really happens now when the powers are delegated.

Because of national service training and the fact that young men _join the services, many problems beset the respective group committees and, in turn, the apprenticeship executive. One is the assessment of the value of the time spent by an apprentice at his trade in one of the Services away from his apprenticeship and how it should count as part of the period of l1is apprenticeship. It is obvious that there are certain standards by which one may make the assessment. Once the standard is determined, the amend­ment makes it legal and possible to delegate power to the chairman for. rout_ine assess­ment, subject always to ratificatiOn by the executive.

312 Apprentices and Minors [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

At the present time the apprenticeship executive meets about once a month but about once a week a sub-committee meets, consisting of the chairman, an employers' representative, and an employees' representa­tive. 'l'here are three representatives of each on the apprenticeship executive. Once a week a sub-committee of the executive meets under the chairman and does routine work. Then it reports to the full executive at the monthly meeting and recommends that its decisions be ratified. All that the amend­ment does is to incorporate in the Act what has in practice been found necessary for smooth working.

Like my collettgue th~ hon. member for Somerset, I do not desire to answer for the Minister but if I could answer the hon. member for Isis about the powers of disallowance which seemed to worry him and if I rpad the Act correctly, it does not present any great difficulty because the executive has that prerogative all the time and in this amendment the executive is the commencing point for the delegation of authority. The authority is then delegated from the executive to a sub-committee of the executive, to a group committee, and then to a sub-committee of the group.

There does not seem to be any real problem there, and there is no problem-for the apprentice who does not apply himself, though the hon. member for Murrumba seems to think so. The Act says that if an apprentice does not apply himself to his technical education he can be dealt with by the Group Committee, and if there is no Group Committee, then by an Advisory Committee. The Advisory Com­mittee makes a report on apprentices who are being taught by correspondence. If you read the minutes of the executive meeting you will see where apprentices have been dealt with for failure to return test papers and for insufficient return of test papers, which means that they have not been paying attention to their studies. No power on earth can make a boy study if he does not want to. The Act makes provision for warn­ing and fining, but that is the sole preroga­tive of the Executive. If a warning or a fine has no effect there is provision for the Group Committee to recommend cancellation of the indentures. That is considered by the Executive and it has been done.

I was a member of a Group Committee that, because of the circumstances, recommended the cancellation of indentures, and the recommendation was accepted by the Executive and approved by the Minister. I do not think there is any real problem there.

The same hon. member spoke of the licensing of electricians, but as I do not wish to speak on matters outside this Act I will be content to say, in passing, that electricians are not licensed but certificn ted as to competency and skill.

Much has been said about the Common­wealth-States Apprenticeship Inquiry Com­mittee. I do not think it would be out of place to refer to the report of the. committee which was set up by the Federal Liberal­Country Party on 13th February, 1952.

On page 26 of the report the following recommendation dealing with the framework of an Apprenticeship Authority appears:-

''In the course of our inquiry we have taken the opportunity of examining at first hand practically every Apprenticeship System in operation throughout Australia. In addition, we have given close study to the operation of apprenticeship systems in other. countries. Upon the hypothesis, which we accept, that ap.prentices are primarily to be regarded as training units, and not industrial units, we consider it appropriate that both the Apprenticeship Authority and the Education Authority should be under the control of the Minister for Education or Public Instruction. ·

"Now, for the guidance of the various Governments, we set out what we consider to be the most appropriate and effective method of controlling appre:n,ticeship in Australia. In broad framework we con­sider that, at State level, there should be an Apprenticeship Authority to conduct the administration of apprenticeship, and an Education Authority to provide techni.cal education for apprentices in or through technical schools, while at Commonwealth level there should be authorities to co-ordinate apprenticeship in those respects in which a uniform national pattern is desirable. At both the State and Com­monwealth levels there is a place for the close and active participation of employer associations and trade unions.''

Mr. Speaker, that, in effect, is what the Apprentices and Minors Act gives to the employers, the apprentices and to their guardians in Queensland. It you wanted a precis of the framework of the Apprentices and Minors Act I suggest that is most suitable.

Mr. Pizzey: The Moore Government did a good job in bringing it down.

Mr. BROSNAN: If the Moore Govern­ment did a good job in bringing down this legislation, it must be the exception that proves the rule, because there is not one other thing that can be pointed to as a good job in its regime.

The Apprentices and Minors Act which has been built on and improved by this so-called Socialist Labour Government is today the Act on which this report is based. It is the Act that the Victorian Government used as a pattern and the Tasmanian Government too. If this report is ever implemented all States will found their legislation on the Queensland Act.

As to the structure of the Act~ the report proceeds-

" The Apprenticeship Authority.-We consider that each Apprenticeship Authority should consist of nine members, a Chairman appointed by the State Government, the principal officer of the Technical Educat~on Department in the State, a representative of the Commonwealth Government, three representatives of employers and three of employees. The association o~ the Technical Education Department with the

Apprentices and Minors [14 SEPTEMBER.) Acts Amendment Bill. 313

Apprenticeship Authority through mep:l­bership, is. a feature of the Queensland system which appears to us to enjoy the confidence of employers and unions. In other States, where the regulation of apprenticeship and the technical education ~unct~o.n are separated, there appears to be Insufficient, and in some cases, no liaison between the bodies administering them.' '

The hon. member for Isis is desirous now of giving the Moore Government full credit for this legislation. If the Moore Government did it, it was only an attempt to cover up their slogan of '' £2,000 000 for 10 000 jobs.'' The idea emanated' from the Lab.our Government of the day. It was in Labour's policy. S,Peech. If it was such a baby of the O~posibon party how could they stand up in this House and speak to the Bill without making mention of the fact. They did not refer to it until I eulogisecl the Labour Gov­ernment on their legislation which is the basis of the report of the' Committee of Inquiry set up by the Federal Government C?mposed of peovle with the same political vrews as those sitting in Opposition in this House.

The only difiercnce in structure for an Apprenticeship Authority is that this Com­mittee recommends the appointment of a representative of the Commonwealth Govern­ment to the Apprentices and Minors Executive. Personally, I see nothing wrong with that, if the Commonwealth Government employ apprentices and pass legislation to protect them and they have done that.

Mr. Jesson: So long as it was not Artie Fad den.

Mr. BROSNAN: It might be a good thing if Artie Fadden was there. I feel sure his a~prenticeship was sadly neglected and it might be a good thing if he got a little ground training.

The amendment making it compulsory for employers to keep complete records relating to their apprentices and to make those records available to union officials, industrial inspec­tors and welfare officers has been made neces­sary by the actions of a few. Although by fa; the greater majority of employers extend this courtesy now there are still some who will not allow the union official, the welfare officer or the industrial inspector of the Department of Labour and Industry to seek ~he desired ~nformation. This compulsion I~ neces~ary m the interests of the appren­tices, mmors, and probationers. The record is similar to that expected of employers under the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act.

The unions take a keen interest in the affairs of apprentices because they realise that these young people of today are the tradesmen of the future. They are careful t? see to it that the employees' representa­tives on the group committees are the best possible men available, and I think the same may be said of the employers.

Technically, the training of apprentices appears to be the sole responsibility of the Government. This should not be so. There

should be full co-operation from all sides but we cannot hope to get it until group committees and executives are given adequate legal powers in connection with both the pr~c._tical and technical training of apprentices.

I do not wish to prolong the discussion, ?ut it W1l;S suggested to me by way of mterjection that the Apprentices and Minors Act was first introduced in 1929 by the Moore Government. That is only half the truth. Reference to Volume 13 of the Queens­land Statutes will disclose that in 1924 a Labour Government introduced an Act to regulate appl'entices in certain trades and particulars. It is significant that the very executive committee with which this Bill deals was provided for in that original Act of 1924.

There is provision in the Act of 1924 for examinations, technical education, group committees, and advisory committees. The truth is that it was a Labour Government that introduced the Apprenticeship Act in 1924. In 1929 the Moore Government-and I refer to Volume 15 of Queensland Statutes -introduced a Bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to apprentices and minors. It was not an original Act, it was an amend­ing Act. Section 2 of the Act of 1929 says ''Subject to this Act 'The Apprenticeship ~cts, 1924 to 1927' are repealed ... '' So It will be seen from the historical records of this Parliament that my statement was correct, that it was a Labour Government that introduced the original Act. I repeat for the benefit of the Leader of the Liberal Party that it is indicative and typical of the beneficial legislation which he calls socialistic and prefers to interpret as communistic that Labour brings down. It is legislatio~ for the benefit of the workers; it provides for a fair go and for reasonable treatment at all times. It is the complete antithesis of dictatorship and it gives the employer the opportunity of having his rights and his say. It cannot be said to be legislation that is either socialistic or communistic in character, it is typical of true democratic Labour principles. I think my statements have given the lie to the suggestion that we did not introduce this Act. We did. The Labour Party found it necessary in 1934 when returned to office again to amend the Act which the Tory Government or the Liberal-Country Party Government intro­duced. You will pardon me, Mr. Speaker, if I do not use the correct term because the Opposition have changed their name so many times. 'l'he Tory Government repealed the Act brought down by a Labour Government but it was necessary with the return of a Labour Government to the Treasury benches to amend the Act. We have amended it from time to time. I speak with some authority for the trade union Labour movement as I am still an active executive member of my union. I commend the Government most heartily on bringing down this legislation for the benefit of the youth of this nation and Queensland in particular.

314 Apprentices and Minors [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

lUr. DIPLOCK (Condamine) (2.24 p.m.): I was pleased to hear the hon. member for Isis refer to the favourable comments by the Commonwealth - States Apprenticeship Inquiry Committee about the liaison between the technical education branch and the apprenticeship authorities. I have read the report which shows that the members of the committee realise that education plays a very important part in the life and training of the apprentice. The achievements of the Depart­ment of Pu!Jlic Instruction in Queensland in the field of technical education and in the interests of apprentices generally make one feel justifiably proud to be associated with this Government. As you know, Mr. Speaker, I represent a country electorate and I am happy to be in a position to say without fear of contradiction that this State leads the way aml sets the example for all other States of Australia and New Zealand in its effort to place the training of apprentices in the country on an equal footing with that in the city.

The Technical Education Branch of the Department of Public Instruction is wholly responsible for the academic training of all apprentices and, in the larger centres, assumes part of the responsibility for their practical training. That this responsibility is no light one is borne out by the fact that at the present time 12,167 apprentices are being trained, of whom 2,866 are in their first year.

To meet the nc-efls of apprentices in country areas, correspondence courses in 125 sub­jects, some up to five stages, are prepared. I know, as was stated in the committee's report, that all States now make provision for correspondence courses, but I know also that Queensland was the first State in the Commonwealth to provide them. Two of the other States fell into line only recently.

This State can boast that at the present time it is the only one that appoints super­visors to ensure that the country trainees who are prepared to study, master the lec­tures that are sent out to them. At present there are 38 approved study centres, staffed by 54 supervisors. That their work is effec­tive and that the scheme is sound is borne out by the fact that the percentage of passes gained by country students is as high as that gained by city students. In passing, I should like to mention that New Zealand pays Queensland the compliment of using its cor­respondence lectures.

I pay a tribute to the Secrehuy for Public Instruction because of his sympathetic atti­tude towards the country trainee. He realises his difficulties and understands his needs and, where he considers that there is a possibility of maintaining such an average attendance as wanants the appointment of a supervisor, he is prepared to give a class a trial run. Recently I applied for the appointment of a supervisor at Chinchilla. Although the number of apprentices inden­tured in that town made it appear doubtful that t~e necessary average attendance could be mamtaincd, I appealc>d to the Minister to give this borderline case a trial for a

few months, and he agreed. In conjunction with the executive of the Chinchilla branch of the A.L.P., I impressed upon the employer, the employee and the parent that the respon­sibility for retaining the supervisor was now theirs, and I am pleased to be able to say that as a result of the co-operation of those people, the class will continue.

'l'he Minister's action has ha cl a further result in that before this study group was apprond and a supervisor appointed, parents were not prepared to apprentice their boys to local tradesmen because of the fear that they would not be able to pass their examinations.

We now have many additional apprentices and I feel sm'e that the Minister's action will result in catching up on the Jag in trades­men. I am stressing what the Government have done, not to boost the Government--the Commission's report does that-but because I fear that a force is moving at the moment to cause discontent amongst apprentices. I read just recently in a magazine that Queensland was one of the only States in which appren­tices were not allowed to do their study who!Iy within the employer's time. Upon inquiring into this I find that in only two States in Australia-in Victoria and \Vestern Australia -do apprentices do the whole of their study in the employer's time. Going further I find that in other parts of the world there is no universal rule about it. For instance, in Holland the apprentice goes to school for a couple of years and puts in the whole of his time learning his job. He is then put into industry and he cannot become a certificated tradesman until he reaches the age of 27.

lUr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member is gettinfl' away from the subject.

lUr. DIPLOCK: Referring to the pro­vision for the insertion of the period of apprenticeship in lieu of the apprenticeship course, I say that an apprentice could not fail, at the conclusion of each year's train­ing, to be of more value to his master than he was during the previous year. He would have additional practical experience. If he were not, we could assume that his principal, that is, his master, had not recognised his obligation. There are two sides to an appren­ticeship. The master contracts to see that the apprentice is trained efficiently. I stress that because, although the cases are rare, we fincl, especially in country areas, apprentices used as a form of cheap labour. Some employers are quite prepared to have apprentices do a certain amount of work cheaply but they are not prepared to train them and to see that they carry on their studies. If the apprentice is not worth more to his master at the end of the year than at the beginning, then it could be, not, as was suggested this morning, that the apprentice is lacking but that the master is falling down on the job. Ninety-five per cent. of employers have recognised the moral obligation to pay according to the duration of the apprenticeship and the proposed amendment merely makes the moral obliga­tion a legal one.

Apprentices and Minors [14 SEPTEMBER.] Acts Amendment Bill. 315

Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (2.34 P·!ll·): It is true that the Government have done much for apprentices but much more needs to be done. I agree that the Bill will improve their conditions but it does not go far enough.

Might I suggest that the Bill does not go half far enough. It is true, as \Yas stated by the hon. member for Isis, that it is difficult today to get young boys to enter an apprenticeship. I have known cases-I 3Uppose other members have parallel cases­where parents have done everything they eould to get a boy to take an apprenticeship and he has refused to do it. I know of the case of a boy who was an apprentice and his parents and I had to work on him for a long time to get him to finish his apprentice­ship and get his indentures; and the moment he did he left the trade he was work­ing in, and started as a cleaner in the Raihvay Department. Until we face up to the fact that we have to make the wages and conditions of the tradesmen and a.pprentices as good as they are in other types of industry we will not get the apprentices that we need. One thing that must be done is to stop the iniquitous system of requiring apprentices to do their study in their own time. Hon. members know that every afternoon when we leave the House about five o'clock or half past five we are almost pushed off the footpath in George Street by the hordes of young men in working clothes who have done eight hours' work, and who are walking along the footpath towards the Technical College to attend evening classes eating as they walk, after having visited a wayside shop to buy a bottle of milk or a pie or a ham­burger. I know that in every town of any size an apprenticeship committee has been set up to more or less control the apprenticeship system in the area. The chief trouble is the evening classes, or to put it plainly, the work that an apprentice has to do in his own spare time. If you go into any other industry you get good wages and conditions, and when one is finished his work his time belongs to him. He can go anywhere he likes and enjoy him­self or he may study voluntarily. On the other hand, an apprentice is compelled some­times for two or three nights-I am not sure of the actual time: I know it is a fairly long time-to attend at the Technical College. It might take him half the night to get to the Technical College, do his evening class and get home again. We have the same difficulty, if I may digress f'or a moment, with regard to the nursing profession.

JU:r. SPEAKER: I hope the hon. member will not digress too much.

lUr. AIKENS: Trainee nurses are diffi­cult to get because so much of their time is taken up with evening classes and private study in order to fit them for a wage that, compared with that in other callings, is not much higher than 11 labourer's wage. \Vhen I was a young cleaner in the rnilwrr;- senicc, we had the case of two youths. One joined the department as an apprentice carpenter, and the other joined as a labourer. We

worked out in pounds, shillings and pence h?w long the chap who joined as .an apprent~ce carpenter would have to be m the serviCe before he earned in the aggre,gate as much wages as the boy who started as a labourer, and we found that the apprentice carpenter would be 42 years of age before he caught up.

JUr. Power: They would not put a boy on as an adult labourer.

}Ir. AIKENS: They did in those days, and they do today. Any husky boy today can get an adult wage at 16 years of age. Consequently, if you have a young lad and you say . to him, ''I want you to become an apprentice carpente.r or an electrician or boilermaker, an cl you \Ylll start on a few shillings a week aml go to the Technical College two or three nights a week and do a lot of study in your own time at home and do it for fiye years, and pass examinations every year,'' the boy will be likely to saY-in these enlightened days­'' Don't be n~ts Mum,' '-or ''Dad, I can get a job as a labourer or something else at £12 10s. or £13 a week.''

I shall finish by saying that every day, members of Parliament leaving this House in the afternoon can see for themselves why we are haYing difficulty in getting apprentices in this State. It is on hand for all to see. 'l'here is the visual evidence of it. We must make the wages and conditions of apprentices and tradesmen at. l.east compar­able with the wages and conditions of those who clo not have to enter into apprenticeships.

Hon. G. H. DEVRIES (Gregory-Secre­tarv for Public Instruction) (2.41 p.m.), in 'reply: In my second reading ~peech I pointed out that in 1920 the Execubv~ Cor;'­mittee met in Brisbane for the first tm1e m historY. The Bill contains six clauses and I must "confine myself to them. The hon. member for Isis regretted that it was not possible for me to include some of the useful recommendations-I think those wme the words he used-in the report of the Common­wealth-States inquiry committee. The report was made available only recently, con­sequently it was not possible to include some of the recommendations that the hon. member referred to. I should make it quite clear to the House that the report at present is in the hands of Cabinet, consequently I shall not enter into a controversy with hon. members about it.

!Ur. Aikens: You cannot tell us much but you are hoping for the best.

~Ir. DEVRIES: I hope that when the report is fully investigated and considered by Cabinet it might be possible to bring clown further legislation. It is true, and I agree with the hon. member for Mundingburra, that this Government have done much for apprentices in Queensland. I also agree with him when he states there is much still to be done. I do know this, Mr. Speaker, as one travels this State, particularly the out-back parts, one sees and understands the terrific

316 Apprentices and Minors [ASSEMBLY.] Acts Amendment Bill.

disability under which people live when there are no tradesmen available to give attention to the matters referred to by the hon. member for Murrumba, such as the radio and refrigeration industries. If the people in the remote areas are to be served we must have tradesmen. In Queensland and other parts of the world one sees the products of Tech­nical Colleges and Universities in high positions.

At this stage it might be interesting to point out that there are approximately 12,000 apprentices under the control of the Apprenticeship Executive Committee, of course, subject to the Minister in control of the Department of Public Instruction. Not all these apprentices attend Technical Colleges. It might be surprising to hon. members to know that the greater percentage of apprentices do not come from the Tech­nical College itself, but graduate through the correspondence schools. Despite our great difficulties in this State, we do have a liaison between the Department of Public Instruc­tion and the technical colleges. Many other States do not.

iUr. Pizzey: Are those papers made available to the technical colleges~

.Mr. DEVRIES: I think the hon. mem­ber for Coorparoo asked me that same ques­tion two or three years ago. At that time he asked if I would agree to make the printed lectures available to the boys attending tech­nical colleges, and at that time I refused to do so.

iUr. Pizzey: You might get better results.

J'Ir. DEVRIES: I could answer that, but I have no desire to risk incurring the displeasure of the chair.

As was mentioned by the hon. member for Isis and_ others, the employer has the respon­sibility of teaching the boy the trade to which he is indentured. Not many years ago, parents were required to pay employers a premium for teachiiJ.g their boys a trade. Gone are the days when the apprentice should be the billy-boy, and I agree with much of what the hon. member for Murrumba said. It is true that in some cases the employer is not honouring his responsibility to teach the apprentices.

Recently I had the great privilege of attending a meeting of the Young Christian Workers' Movement and was agreeably sur­prised to find that these young workers were anxious to help rather than harass the Govern­ment in matters affecting apprenticeship. ~hey believed that their responsibility was JUSt as great as that of the employer. Recently also I was asked for my definition of a trade. I said that it constituted the whole, not part of a calling, and I said too, that apprentices should be trained in every section of the calling to which they were indentured. After all, I remind hon. members that if an employer sends an apprentice to do a job the person for whom the work is done is charged tradesman's rates, and I emphasise here that I do not

say this in any unkindly way. This Govern­ment realise that we must have tradesmen. New scientific methods are being introduced daily, we are moving quickly, and the boys must be given every facility to learn their trades thoroughly.

In the other States there is no liaison between the Department of Public Instmction and the technical colleges. The hon. mem­ber for Isis seemed to be concerne<l about the delegation of powers, but I remind him that in this State we do have a direct liaison between the tcr hnical colleges and the Department of Public Instruction. My technical officer, Mr. Evans, is my representa­tive on tile executive committee and so we have a complete liaison between the Depart­ment of Public Instruction '"nd the Technical College.

1\'Ir. Aikens: You are the ministerial head of the lot.

}Ur. DEVRIES: That is so. That liaison does not exist in the other States. I do not want to be charged with tedio_ns repetition. The hon. member for Fortitude Valley, with his years of experience as industrial organiser and his wide range of knowledge concerning the Apprenticeship Act and his wide knowledge of electrical matters has dealt fully with the question.

The hon. member for Isis dealt with the clause regarding the delegation of power. The apprenticeship executive has always l:J'een able to delegate powers and duties to any sub-co=ittee of the executive. It has always had that power; it has taken that power and I do not propose to deal now with the question of whether it was right or wrong. Up to the present it has been assumed that any group apprenticeship com­mittee had the necessary authority to delegate powers and duties to any group sub­committee or to the chairman, but recently circumstances canie about where the legality of the procedure was questioned. . The matter was referred to the executive body and it recommended the replacement of Section 16 to cover it. I have already said that the executive thought it had that p.ower, but as things went along we found there were legali­ties that clouded the issue. We st::~rted to put the matter right. Over a number of years it has been apparent that the executive would not delegate any power to a sub­committee or the chairman other than for the implementation of some policy already deter­mined by the executive. The executive, after having arrived at a decision, would delegate that rower to the chairman to implement _it, always assuming that the executive had com­plete power of veto.

I shall give an example to demonstrate my point for the benefit of hon. members gener­ally and the hon. member for Isis in par­ticular. There is a scale of fines for appren­tices who fail to attend the college classes or return correspondence. The ~on. member for Isis knows and the hon. member for Fortitude Valley pointed it out that the fines range from 10s. to £2. Wl1en the executive body has decided that an apprentice was guilty of failure to attend night college or

Apprentices, &c., Bill. [14 SEPTEMBER.] Stock Acts Amendment Bill. 317

to return correspondence papers it inflicts a fine. That would be one of the powers that the executive committee would delegate to the chairman of the group committee or a sub-committee of the group committee. After all, it must be borne in mind that the chairman is chairman of the executive com­mittee, chairman of the group committee and chairman of the sub-committee of the group committee. That power is delegated to -him by the executive committee to implement a policy laid down by it. For example, apprentices unuergoing national service train­ing are entitled to have crediteu to their apprenticeship period time that is spent on work associated with their apprenticeship while they are in training. This work is specified in certain branches of the armed services, and the chairman is authorised to grant the period so served to any apprentice provided that the conditions determined by the executive are complied with. That is a decision that has been arrived at bY the executive, which delegates to the chairman the power to implement it.

vVhen we speak of Group Committees, we must not confuse them with Advisory Com­mittees. A Group Committee can be a very unwieldy body. Let us take, for example, a matter that affects the moulding industry. If an apprentice in that industry has to be dealt with, to save calling together the full Group Committee we call a meeting of a su b-com­mittee of the Group Committee, consisting of men in the moulding trade. Power is delegated by the Executive Committee to that sub-committee to hear-not to determine-the matter. Then the sub-com­mittee reports its findings to the Group Com­mittee, which determines the issue. At all times, however, irrespective of the decision arrived at by the Group Committee, the Execu­tive Committee, subject to the decision of the Minister, has the right of veto.

The hon. member for Isis referred also to sick leave. In 1948 the principal Act was amended, but unfortunately the amendment did not include minors or probationers. A elause in the principal Act provided that apprentices, minors and probationers should receive two weeks' sick leave in any one year, and to my mind the 1948 amendment con­flicted with the principal Act as it made no reference to minors and probationers. The result was that minors and probationers could have claimed unlimited sick leave, although the Act provided for only two weeks' sick leave for apprentices.

The hon. member for Isis asks why this clause should be retrospective. It is not being made retrospective, because it is in the prin­cipal Act. Strangely, it was never taken out of the principal Act. If we date this pro­vision back to 1948, unlimited sick leave cannot be claimed. The question might be asked-why should he not be entitled to unlimited sick pay from 1948 up to 195H The reason why it is taken back to 1948 is that it is in the principal Act and has never been taken out.

I thank the hon. member for Fortitude Valley, the hon. member for Somerset, and

the hon. member for Condamine, for their contributions to the debate. There is much that I should have liked to say but naturally, I suppose, I must observe the Standing Orders.

The Commonwealth-States InquiTy Com­mittee Report has been mentioned. It is public property. There are at least 90 resolutions, most of which have been agreed to by the departmental officers of the various States of the Commonwealth who constituted the committee. Many of the recommendations are already contained in the Queensland Act. Queensland has done something; it is small, but we expect it to grow. We have given hairdressers a fortnight's full training at the Technical College in Brisbane. They come from Tully, from Goondiwincli, and from all other parts of the State. We pay their rail fare down and back but they have to arrange their own accommodation. The people of Brisbane have been very generous and I ~want to compliment them for their hospitality and their assistance in accom­modating the young people. We have gone further. vVe have made it possible for apprentices to the baking trade to attend the Technical College for two weeks in every year. We extend the same facilities to them. We hope in the very near future to extend the same facilities to panel-beaters. Many people are interested in encouraging young people to become tradesmen, not only in this State but also throughout the Commonwealth and, indeed, the world.

Two trades were mentioned by the hon. member for Murrumba-radio and refrigera­tion. The Government gave much thought to them even before I went to the department. I can assure the hon. member that if it is possible to give effect to what he has in mind Cabinet will do it. There are many difficulties in the way. I do not propose to discuss them at the moment except to say that the points raised by him will be given further consideration.

Motion (Mr. Devries) agreed to.

COMMITTEE.

(The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Clark, Fi tzroy, in the chair.)

Clauses 1 to 7, both inclusive, as read, agreed to.

Bill reported, without amendment.

STOCK ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

SECOND READING.

Hon. H. H. COLLINS (Tablelands­Secretary for Agriculture and Stock) (3.8 p.m.) : I move-

'' That the Bill be now read a second time.''

As I gave a comprehensive outline of the Bill during the initiation stage, there is not very much that I can usefully add. There was not much discussi.on on the Bill. Now that hon. members have seen it I trust that

318 Stock Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

they will have found something in it that they appreciate or wish to say something about.

I am sure we realise to the fullest extent, the dreadful effect on the cattle, sheep, or swine industry if foot and mouth disease should get a hold in this country. That is one of the main principles of the Bill.

There is another matter, it does not arise in connection with the Bill, but it must exercise the minds of many people, and that is who is going to pay for the cattle that may have to be slaughtered~ That is a matter which is under consideration at the present time between the States and the Commonwealth.

liir. Sparkes interjected.

liir. COLLINS: We are merely taking precautions. The trouble is that so many members of the Opposition are tripping back­wards and forwards to overseas countries in which the disease occurs and it is necessary to have something in this Bill to protect them against themselves. (Laughter.) They, probably, might be the first to bring the disease back with them.

The Bill will be of great benefit to industry and I am sure the Opposition will not criticise it.

lUr. NICKLIN (Landsborough-Leader of the Opposition) (3.ll p.m.): The Minister appeared to be somewhat disappointed that there was no discussion on the Bill but I assure him that had there been anything con­troversial in it there would have been much discussion. It is always wise to examine a Bill very closely before entering into an extensive discussion on it. It is a very wise procedure not to commit oneself one way or the other before studying it. But I think the Minister was disappointed that we had not discussed the Bill at all. What would have been the position if, before we had studied it, we had said it was a very good one and later had to reverse our decision~

I\Ir. Collins: You usually safeguard yourself.

lUr. NICKLIN: There are no proVIsiOns in the Bill to which very great exception can be taken but there are some that should be examined and discussed now and also in Committee.

The Minister placed great emphasis on the fact that the Bill was designed mainly to deal with any outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease but he omitted to mention the other pro­visions dea:Iing with assessments for the stock diseases' fund. Of course, it is not a popular sub,iect, and the Minister would not like to say too much about it.

First of all I draw attention to the pro­visions dealing with foot-and-mouth disease. I believe the Minister is wise in ensuring that our legislation is up to date and capable of meeting any emergency that could arise from the unfortunate introduction of this very

bad stock disease. I know that the Minister, every other hon. member, and any other person who has any regard for the future develop­ment of the animal industry in this State, hope that our isolation will prevent the introduction of foot-and-mouth disease. Nevertheless, as the Minister mentioned in the introductory stage, the improved methods of transport between other countries and this continent, could mean that in a matter of two or three days this disease could be intro­duced. It is wise to take all precautions and be ready to meet any such emergency. Travellers from overseas, before they can get through the customs in this country are put through an examination. They have to answer n questionnaire-where they have been, and whether they have been in contact with any person who has been in an area affected by foot-and-mouth disease. Our Commonwealth quarantine services endeavour to take every possible preeaution against the introduction of foot-and-mouth disease. There is power to order the fumigation of the belongings of any person who may have come from an area where the disease has been rampant. That power even extends to ordering the person himself to be disinfected if it is thought desirable.

lUr. Collins: It might be possible for migrating birds to bring it in.

lUr. NICKLIN: It can be transmitted from one countn· to another on boots and clothing. As the. Minister suggests, it might even be brought in by birds. But irrespective of how it can be brought into the country, it is wise to be prepared to meet any emer­gency that might arise. There does not seem to be any effective method of controlling it other than by quarantining the area and the stock. We know from experience in overseas countries that this is proved a costly method, but drastic measures must be taken to deal with what could possibly mean the ruination of the animal industries of the Commonwealth. All I hope is that it will never be necessary to implement the powers written into the Bill by the Minister although I agree that we should have the machinery ready to put into operation should the need ever arise.

While the Minister was explaining the Bill, the question of payment for cattle destroyed was raised by way of interjection. I trust that if it ever does become necessary to destroy a number of cattle because of an outbreak of this disease, the cattle owners of the State are not asked to bear the whole loss. The matter should be dealt with on a national basis. The disease is of national concern and I do hope that if it ever does become necessary to compensate the owners of stock for losses incurred through an out­break of foot-and-mouth disease the expense will be borne by public funds, not by those who have suffered the direct losses.

The Minister has included poultry diseases in the measure. \Ve know that officers of the department carry out certain work in connection with poultry but I see no pro­vision for the imposition of a levy on the poultrymen for those services. It is evident

Stock Acts [14 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 319

that the Minister is satisfied with the eontri­bution by the poultry industry now under the Act for the control of diseases in poultry.

lUr. Collins: They are putting in £5,000 a year.

::lir. NICKLIN: I know the industry contributes something and that it is subsidised bv the Government. The fund is used for the i;;vestigation of poultry diseases.

3Ir, CoHins: You would not like us to inclmle m1 extra levy, ~would ~·ou ~

l\Ir, NICKLIN: Certainly not. I am wondering >vhy the Minister has not included it in the Bill. It is not very often that rections of the primary industries are brought unuer legislation and there is no ]Jower to make an assessment. 'l'he poultry inuustry ~s making a fairly substantial contribution towards the eontrol of diseases in that indus­try and it would not be fair to reassess it further under this measure.

The Bill does not entirely overlook assess­ments because it deals with assessments for the Stock Diseases Compensation Fund which is used to test cattle for T .B. and to pay compen!la tion for destroyed animals. In 1944, the levies were on milk supplied to wholesalers for consumption in Brisbane or other gazetted areas or for the manufacture of icecream but the herds that were then T .B. free were exempted from this assess­ment. That was only fair because the stock­owners who had T.B. free herds had taken the action envisaged under the legislation and the compensation was for their trouble in culling their herds and for the constant testing so as to have the herds T.B. free.

l\Tr. Collins: They destroyed their stock entirely at their own expense.

lUr, NICKLIN: Yes. They did not get the meagre compensation payable now for the stock destroyed. In 1948 there was an extension of levies to apply to cream supplied to prescribed butter factories and cream sold for other purposes in prescribed areas. In 1949 there was another alteration in regaTcl to levies. "The assessments could be varied. One object was said to be the reduction of assessments on producers who maintained their herds free of T.B. or who had had no benefit under the Act because there had been no testing. At that time we were faced with a shortage of veterinary o{ficers. This Bill provides that levies may be on all or part of the milk or cTeam supplied and that any variation may be retrospective. I do not like retrospectivity in any legislation. There does not seem to be an provision to increase the assessments already made. According to my reading of the Bill it will give the Minister, power to reduce levies according to the state of the district dealt with. It may be necessary to levy only part of the cream instead of all the cream, as is the case at the present time.

We still have in this legislation the anomaly that herds that were free of T.B. before the 1944 Act are totally exempt, while those that have become free since then are

only partially exempt. The man who has freed his herd since then should be entitled to some consideration.

We still have also the injustice of the very meagrCl payment for a condemned beast. ~When these levies were first imposed compen­sation for a condemned beast was fixed at a certain figure, but although the price of cattle over the years has increased five or sixfold, the amount of compensation still remains the same. It cannot be because of a shortage of money in the fund; it is in a very satisfac­tory position. I ask the Minister _to Te~iew the compen~ation payable under tlns legisla­tion. I know that the matter has been argued time and time again in this House, and the Minister has always said, ''~What value has a disease cl beast~' '

Jlir. Collins: That thought was just running through my mind.

Jir. NICKLIN: I could see the twinkle in the Minister 's eye.

Jir. Collins: A diseased beast is a liability.

)lr. NICKLlN: In a milk-supplying herd a T .B. beast would be a total liability, but in a cream-supplying herd it would not be a total liability immediately; it would become a gradually increasing liability as the years went on. Nevertheless, there is neecl for a review of the amount of compen­sation payable from the fund, particularly when the replacement eost of cattle is so high. In the near future we shall be con­siderilw a Bill brought down by the Attorn~y-General to amend the Magistrates Courts Act because of the changing value of money, and I think the ~~torne,r-General should quietly advise the Munster m chaTge of this Bill to uo something about the Stock Diseases Compensation Fund.

In addition to the meagre compensation that is paid for a condemned_ beast, there is another injustice in the operat10n of the fund. Owners of cattle are levied in order to pro­vide a service that is for the benefit of the whole community. For example, it is to the benefit of the community as a whole to have disease-free milk. Similarly, it is to the benefit of the community as a whole that many of the things in the Act should l_Je clone. Yet the whole of the cost of carrymg out the legislation is borne by the cattle-men.

The department serves mainly the public interest. Granted, it does great work on behalf of the stock-owners of the State but most of its activities, particularly on T.B. and the like, are of greater benefit to the community generally than to the stock-owners. Notwithstanding this, the cattle-owners have to carry stock assessments, T .B. a.ssessments, pay fees under the Dairy Produce. Act, and meet the bull tax under the Dauy Cattle Improvement Acts. Slaug_htering fees are imposed on co-operatwe factones, and so on. About 80 pe:r cent. of those charges are, in the final analysis, for the public benefit and about 20 per cent. for the cattle-owners but the whole of the cost has to come out of the pockets of the cattle-owners. However, when the Minister

320 Stock Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

is examining this legislation further he may see that the cost of providing these public services is more equitably distributed over the community.

I come to another very interesting provision in the Bill. The Minister, not content with looking after the ea ttle and sheep of the State, now extends his care to dogs and the cats by taking control of boarding kennels. I do not quarrel with that at all because action against some of the kennels is neces­sary, not only those providing accommodation during the holidays of the pet-owners but also against those kennels under the control of veterinar1ans. Many animals, canine and feline, and others, are not perhaps valuable, but of great value to their owners. Those people would be very disturbed if their cats aml dogs contracted a disease in a kennel through neglect. I believe it is very wise to bring the boarding kennels within the provisions of the Act and to lay down a standard for the best possible service, both boarding and veterinary care.

The regulation-making powers are fairly wide; but I am surprised that there is no provision for the payment of fees by the owners. Perhaps that will come under the purview of the Minister in charge of price fixing. Possibly dog kennels will be brought under price fixing in the near future.

lUr. Power: If you make a request I will consider it.

Mr. NICKLIN: I think the Minister has quite enough troubles with meat without tak­ing on dogs and cats.

Jir. Power: There is no shortage of beef in Brisbane.

}Ir. NICKLIN: It will be interesting to see whether it is passed over to the Minister in charge of prices. Although there is pro­vision for the proper care of animals com­mitted to the respective kennels there does not seem to be any provision for special diets or utensils that may be required by some of the fussy dogs who no doubt will be committed to the eare of the kennels.

lUr. Collins; And no provision for the segregation of the sexes. (Laughter.)

lUr. NICKLIN: And, as the Minister says, there is no provision for the segrega­tion of sexes. That may prove to be a serious omission. (Laughter.) If some gay dog gets loose in the kennel of some other dog trouble may ensue for the owner. Some owners may get into trouble through -the activities of some Gay Lothario.

The regulation-making powers are gener­ally very wide. They are in a sub-clause at th~ end of the Bill to give the Governor­in-Council power to put in something that had been forgotten.

The Minister is very wise in being pre­pared, like the good boy scout, for a possible outbreak of any serious cattle disease like foot-and-mouth disease, which has caused devastating losse~ in many parts of the world.

The other provisions of the Bill are such that we cannot offer any great objection. The Minister said he was disappointed that we did not say anything about it on the fi_rst reading, but he may not be disappointed with what we say at this stage.

Mr. 1\IULLER (Fassifern) (3.37 p.m.): After reading the Bill one cannot help but come to the conclusion that a more fitting name would be ''A Bill to camouflage t):te levy under the Stock Acts. '' The Minister threw out a challenge; he dared us to criticise the Bill. He refrained from saying anything about it on the first or the second reading stages. He reminded me of the showman who said, ''If you like our show tell your friends; if you do not, say nothing at all about it.'' The Minister does not like his own Bill; he is not prepared to talk about it. I propose to lift the veil from some of the camouflage in the Bill. After I have done that I am sure the Minister will have a red face and he will be very busy replying to some of my criticism. There is not the slightest doubt that the Bill con­tains camouflage.

The Leader of the Opposition referred to the levies on the owners of stock. Strange to say, nearly all of them have been imposed on the poor unfortunate dairy-farmers who are fighting hard to make a living. First of all, we have the annual registration of our stock. That applies to all stockowners. lt has been increased tremendously during the last few years. We are rapidly reaching the stage when the owners of stock have to pay for the whole of the supervision in connection with the control of diseases in stock.

}Ir. Jesson: What is wrong with that? The sugar industry has to pay for theirs.

}Ir. lUULLER: Not too much if you get the service, but in a number of cases you do not get the service. A few years ago legis­lation was introduced to provide for a bull tax, the object of which was to improve the quality of the dairy herd.

Mr. Collins: There is nothing about a bull tax in this Bill.

1\Ir. ]}lULL ER: The hon. gentleman is ashamed to call it a bull tax today.

}lr. Collins: There is nothing about a bull tax in the Bill ; ~onfine yourself to the Bill.

1\Ir. ::uuLI,ER: 'Na 11lill have the bull tax and it is being pll!d by the same men who paid it in the first instance. It has now been covered up. It is not now called a bull tax, but those who pnirl it when the levy was first instituted still p:q it. Why does the Minister want to keop away from the truth~ If it is a bull tax a11d if it is useful, why not still call it a h11ll tax~ The Minister did not call it a bull tax.

}Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!

I\Ir. COLLINS: r rise to a point of order. There is nnl.lting in the Bill about a bull tax.

Stock Acts [14 SEPTEMBER.j Amendment Bill. 321

Jir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The Minister has said the! e is nothing in the Bill about a bull tax and l ask the hon. member to keep to the principles of the Bill.

liir. 1\IULLI~R: This is a Bill to levy on. milk ingredients and I am dealing >Yith levres.

i!Ir. DEPUTY Sl'EAKER: The hon. member must keep to the principles of the Bill.

Mr. JIULLER: If I am allowed a little time I will tell the House how the bull tax is paid today.

J[r. DEPGTY §l'EAKEli: I cannot allow the ho11. member to carry on in that strain. There is nothing in the Bill about the levying of a bull tax.

1\lr. 1UULLER: I have a right to speak on the Bill in its pre,;ent form and despite the l\1inistcr 's avoidance of it I can assul'O you, ::\1r. Deputy Speaker, I will not get away from the Bill. I cannot be charged with ever doing that. I will stick to this Bill.

l\Ir. Collins: There is nothing about a bull tax in the Bill.

lUr. J1IULLER: There is provrswn for altering the levy, and I >Yill stick to that. If a levy is imposed for a specific purpose the proceeds from it should be devoted to that purpose. If a kvy is imposed on one section of the communitv it is onlv rcason­able to suggest that those who pay "it should know how the proceeds are spent. There is nothing wrong in that suggestion and that is the point I make. When this tax was first imposed it was known as a bull tnx. Later it wrrs renamed the dairy cattle improvement trrx. It was a levy on milk and cream. The ::\Tinister cannot get a>my from that point. That levy or tax still applie'. It is applied now not ns a levy on milk anc1 cream hut as a leYv on butter. The amount imposec1 on the industry every year, £5,000, has to be paid by the dairying industry under the proYisions of the dairy cattle impro•·cment tax. It is not now called the bull tnx but it is a levy just the same. I can give the House six levies imposed on the industry. The Loader of the Opposition mentioned a few of them. \Ve have the registration of stock and then there is the dairy cattle imprm·ement levy which, as I have snid, "·as knmYn tlS the bull tax at one time. Then there is the levy on all butter. This is levied on the factories. Tlwre is also the T.B. leYy and there is the levy under the Slaughtering Act. These matters all come within the principles of this Bill.

3Ir. Collins: The Consolidated Revenue pays more than £2 to £1 of the amo;_:nt paid by the stock-owner.

IUr. }IULLER: As the Leader of the Opposition asks, why should not Consolidated Reyenue finance the greater part of it~ 1 am giving the Minister a few aspects to con­sider and I think this will do him much good. Consolidated Revenue should finance

1954-M

the greater part of it. The owner of the stock contributes to Consolidated Revenue. My objection is to the continuation of the levy or the additional levy for services on the industTics >vhich the :Minister says are registeTed. They aTe not registered and that must be emphasised. After all the Minister gave us a very little explanation of the measure. He said there was nothing in the Bill. It >vas only a matter of being ready to meet an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Australia. I comnwml the hon. gentleman foT that and I agree that he should take precautions. The hon. membeT for Aubigny quietly interjected and asked if the MinisteT had anv fear that it >vas likely to take place hcTe. "I agree with the hmi. member for Aubigny. I do not say for a moment that it cannot happen, but I have a shrewd suspicion thu t the Minister is not concerned two hoots about the possibility of an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. \Vhy, the menace is not as bad even in Great Britnin and on the Continent as some people would have us believe. As to that, I have an interesting story--

JUr. Aikens: I hope it is clean.

:iUr. ~IULLER: It is. As the hon. mem­ber is in the Chamber, I shall make a special effort to keep it clean. It is a story about an Australian of Irish descent who went on a trip to England. Being of ITish descent, he decided to go across to Irelan(l. There he met a young Irishman and said to him, ''Mike, have you any diseases in your stock?" Mike said. "Such as what?" The Australian said, ''Foot-and-mouth disease.'' Mike looked ut him and said, ''I have never heard of it.'' He thought foT a while and then said, "Wait a minute, that must be what my >Yife has. She dances all night and talks all dav.'' This Bill seems to me to be more camouilnge than anything else. I do not think the J'.IinisteT is verv worried about what is likely to happen. He knows that the method of collecting the T .B. levy has become VOTy ,unpopulnr. \Ve pay the tax at the butteT factoTies and charge it to the supplier. The Minister knows that this method is wrong, nncl he is so worried about the bitter complaints of those upon >Yhom it is levied that he is endeavouring to cover it up just as he found it necessary to cover up the bull tax.

Then he has another little worry about the stickfast fiea.

~Ir. CoHins: There is nothing about the sticldast fiea in the Bill.

iUr. l\IULLER: The Minister mentioned poultry, and in my area we have a great deal of trouble from the stickfast fiea. r~ is my firm belief that we are likely now to hnve a poultry levy.

"Hr. DEPITTY SPEAKER: Order!

:iUr. JUULLER: I admire you for keep­ing hon. members on the right track, but I wish to quote an analogy. These levies have been imposed for certain purposes and used for other purposes. I am now expressing the

322 Stock Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

fear that there will be a Ie-ry on the poultry industry just as we have a buffalo fly tax on every sale of stock that is made.

.IUr. Collins: Why can you not keep to the Bill1

~Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. member to keep to the Bill, otherw1se I shall have to ask him to resume his seat. There is nothing in the Bill about the stickfast flea.

lll.r. lUULLER: The Bill deals chiefly with the control of T.B.

}Ir. Conins: There is nothing in the Bill about the control of 'LB.

Jir. JIULL}~R: This Bill is not the simple thing the Minister would have us believe it is.

.J[r. Aikens: Can you get T.B. from the stickfast flea.

llir. lUULLER: Some people are immune to anything. I think the hon. mem­ber is one of them. I am not worried so much about imposing a levy for a certain purpos~ so _lon_g as _it is spent on the purpose for winch 1t 1s ra1sed. The Leader of the Opposition mentioned that the T.B. levy has become a lucrative source of revenue for the Government. Last session the Minister said in answer to a question that the fund was in credit about £72,000. I should say that by this .time, with the progress that has been made smce then, it is in credit to the extent of £90,000. It might even be well over £100,000. I have no figures to guide me but j~clg~ng from the rate of progress and the nse m the fund from time to time it looks as if it is bordering on the £100 000 mark. '

~Ir. Power: It is better to be that way than broke.

?Ir •. j}IULLER: We object to the levy hemg 1mposecl for a purpose and the service not being rendered. The levy is being use cl to boost up Consolidated Revenue. I told the M~nister a while ago that the purpose of the E11l was to change the system. U ncler the old system a levy was imposed and the people paid it, but under the proposed system the levy is being imposed on the factory and the factory will not be permitted to show the pr~ducer how it is charging it up to ~m1. That 1s not an honest way of doing busmess. If a levy has to be imposed why remove the present system of the imposition of the levy on the producer and place it on the factory W The raw milk seller under this Bill who vends his own milk does not pay a tax at all. I ask the Minister if that is correct. If it is, I should like to know why. If a producer supplies a factory the factory makes the deduction and it is reflected in it~ _opera~ions. ~ want to know why the M1mste_r 1s proposmg to cover it up and why he cleclmes to levy the person who milks his cows and sells the milk.

Mr. Collins: You are wanting us to expand the levy.

~Ir. lUULLER: The Minister does not want to tell us. I have ar;other se1·ious com­plaint to make. The Minister says that tuberculosis is a clanger to the human being .

::!Ir. J esson: It is a danger to the cow too.

Jir. lUULLER: Yes. I agree that there is no distinction between human T.B. and bovine T.B. Medical science tells us that there is a clanger, but why does the Minister's Govermneut supply raw milk to the hospitals "i He asks us to test our herds for the pro­tection of the public but his Govemment Llatantly supplies raw milk to hospitals.

IIIr. Collins: Do you say it is dangerous?

IIIr. :liULLER: The Minister says it is clangc;-ous. I hm·c been waiting for the opportunity to refer to this matter. The Government calls tenders for the supply of milk to hospitals, and the Hospitals Board invariably accepts the lowest tender.

:\Ir. Jesson: It is T.B.-tested milk.

j}Ir. lUULLEl{: How does the hon. mem­lJcr know? The lowest tenclerer gets the coHtract. \Ve arc asked to pasteurise in order to give people good milk and when the GoYernmcut call tenders for the supply of raw milk to hospitals they take the risk of whether it is T.B.-tested or not. It is just as well to look at these things. Why should dairymen be cane,- on to find all these levies to create the necessary fumls to give them services \Yhich they do not get in many cases~

:\Ir. Power: It is taken into considera­tion in the price of milk.

~Ir. ~JULLER: I suggest that the Minister keep to a subject that he knows something about. I have no objection to contributing to a fund if it is used to improve conditions within tl(e industry. Dur­ing the last 12 months the Minister has engaged in a good deal of criticism of the quality of our dairy produce, but we are getting no supervision.

JUr. Burrows: You are being unfair ,o a body of men who are doing a very good job.

lUr. ~IULLER: The hon. member would not know what he is talking about.

If it is right to impose all these levies on the dairying industry, why does not the Minister impose some of them on his friends, the margarine manufacturers~ Those people clo not contribute a brnss farthing.

JUr. Collins: Would you like to be without the service you nre getting now~

}Ir. JUULLER: We are not getting it now.

As I say, the Mini0ter 's great friends, the margarine manufacturers, are allowed to go scot free. The dairymen of Queensland should be told the truth, and I shall continue to tell them the truth. The Minister is running up and clown Queensland telling dairymen that they are producing poor quality butter and cheese, yet at the same time he is levying them and doing nothing to improve conditions within the industry.

Stock Acts [14 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 323

Mr. JESSON (Hinchinbrook) (3.58 p.m.) : This Bill contains only three prin­ciples: firstly, a provision to prevent the spread of foot-and-mouth disease if it should enter this country; secondly, a provision to protect the poultry industry, and thirdly a provi_sion for the establishment of kennel~ for pets. During every session of Parliament for the last 20-odd years I have heard the calamity howler from Fassifern crying about the poor, starving dairymen. However it is only as a result of the levies that the G~vern­ment have imposed on the _dairying industry that it has attained its present peak of efficiency. Every levy that has been imposed on the dairymen has been justified. I have a number of cattlemen and dairymen in my ~lectoTate, but I point out that t1le sugar mdustry_ does not ask any other industry to contnbute to>mrds the cost of controlling diseases and pests in sugar-cane. Every cane­farmer has to pay a levy of so much a ton of cane that he produces.

People engaged in the dairying industry in Queensland are a privileged class. I ugrcc >vith ever0·thing the Minister has said a bout the quality of dairy butter in this State. Recently I toured Victori:1. and New South Wales :1.nd was astounded at the efficiency of the dairies in those States. I was told_ by the dairymen there that they gave therr stock u balanced ration. I spoke to some very prominent men in New South Wales and they told me that, on the basis of the cost of rroduction of butter in Queensland, if all the costs and the i1~cfficiency of the industrv were taken into consideration, the cost of butter in Queensland would be over 10s. a lb., and that it was the efficiency of the industry in New South Wales and Victoria that was keeping the butter price down for the consumer in Queensland. The Australian Butter Producers' Board, or whatever the precise name of the board is based the p_rice on the Australi11:·wide cost of produc­twn. not on the cost m any particular part of the Commonwealth. I say it is because of the levies by the Government that the dairying industry is as efficient as it is. Yet the hon. member for Fassifern and his col­l:~gues complain. The Lealler of the Oppo­sJbon was a gentleman compared to him today. The hon. member for Fassifern has been com­plaining about the levies for 20 years. No dairyman objects to the levy and verv few object to the service they get because it< is the best s_ervice. They have . dairy inspectors, stock Inspectors, and vetermary surgeons in every part of the State and we had to have levies to pay for the services. I represent a sugar area and I object to the people I repre­sent having to pay considerable sums into Consolidated Revenue for the dairying indus­try. The dairying industry pays <£1 and the State pays £2 more in compensation.

JUr. Aikens: The sugar-farmers carry their own burden.

.IUr. JESSON: Yes, the sugar-farmers have their own organisation and they levy themselves 2d. and 3d. a ton of cane for experiment stations of their own in addition to the Government experiment stations.

Mr. Walsh: The State's contribution is about £7,000.

Mr. JESSON: That is quite correct, and we have this small primary-producing minority who complain.

JUr. Walsh: The,y do not pay anything like that amount.

~Ir. JESSON: We have the smallest primary-producing minority in Queensland through the mouthpiece of the hon. member for Fassifern weilding the big stick and trying to make the rest ?f Queensland pa:J: to make their industry efficient, and they obJeCt to it. I say the hon. member is not doing the dairy-farmer any good and, althou&'h he is in an electorate where he cannot be sh1fted, it is only because of the way he speaks against the Government that he holds the seat. He is not game to go out and say what the Government have really done for the dairy-farmer. He knows that if he did not flay the Govemment he would be a ''goner'' like the pigeons we were talking about this morning. So he goes along to the different organisations with his story. I say he is a disgrace to the dairying industry for having addressed this House :lS he has done over the last 20 years. I have kept very close to the proYisions of the Bill. (Laughter.) The hon. member for Fassifern wandered all over the place.

lUr. SPEAKER: Order!

JU1~. JESSO~; He told us all about the bull tax and he even tTied to find the bull in the tax. Consequently I think it is only right every time the hon. member foT Fassifern rises to his feet, that I should try to follow him to tell the dairy-farmers that they are backing the wrong horse. In ~ots of places they are. Look at the pnmary­producing seats that we won at the last election. I know of three rural electorates now represented by Country Par~y members that we will win at the next electwn because members opposite will not tell the t_Tuth about the levies paid by the Govemment ~n order. to keep that industry on a propeT footmg. vV1th those few won1s I leave the 11inister to carry on. (Laughter.)

3Ir. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (4.6 p.m.) : The dairying industry is being used by the hon. member for Fassifern and many of his colleagues as a political football.

lUr. }fuller: I am pleading their case.

)Ir. BURROWS: The hon. member for Fassifern is chairman of the Queensland Butter Board. Last session I drew his atten­tion to the scurrilous attacks by the Press throughout Queensland that emanated from Country Party rooms.

}Ir. 1Uuller: I told you before it was not true and it is not trne.

.lllr. BURROWS: A vicious attack was made on the quality of butter, and afte_r the attention of the hon. member for Fass1fern, chairman of the Butter Board, was drawn to it he did deny the scurrilous and malicious statements that had been made.

324 Stock Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

1\Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. member to keep to the prin­ciples of the Bill.

]llr. BURROWS: I read quotations from the newspapers, and they were not Labour newspapers. If ever an industry was used as a political football it was the dairying industry. It never had a fair go from hon. members opposite. Take the dairymen's organisation--

3Ir. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to the principles of the Bill.

::ur. BURROWS: I was endeavouring to point out that the hon. member for Fassifern, by accusing the Government, is endeavouring to convince the dairymen that they are being unfairly taxed. Every dairyman to whom I have spoken-and I have as many in my electorate as any hon. member here--has expressed appreciation of the services ren­dered by the various Government officers, the clairy inspectors, veterinary officers, and others whose salary, theoretically at least, should be paid out of a fund raised perhaps by levies. Tf the dairying industry was on the same basis as the sugar industry it could cany its own research stations, but I do not deny that the dairy industry has been a Cim1erella industry. It has been treated as such by hon. members opposite. \Ve do not find Labour men endeavouring to get a job as chairman of a butter board in on1er to get a few hundred pounds' 0xpenses. That is all that hon. members opposite are concerned about.

I\Ir. DEPU'l'Y SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member must keep to the principles of the Bill.

1\[r. J,ow: Mrs. Hynes said that you let the dairymen down.

lUr. BURROWS: You let Mrs. Hynes down. (Laughter.) As the hon. member for Cooroora contributed w much to my success at the last election I do not want to be hard on him now. (Laughter.) There is no analogy between the dni l'"'ing and sugar industries. The sugar im1ustry has protec­tion that ~he dairying industry does not enjoy. I chsagree with my friend, the hon. member for Hinchinbrook, in that respect.

Op}Wsition lliembers: Hear, hear!

}fr. BURROW§: I am not going over to the Opposition benches.

An OpiJOSition JUember: You should be over here.

lUr. BURROWS: If I accepted the invitation of hon. members opposite I should be_ there only a short time, probably five nnnutes, before I would be chairman of some dairying board with an allowance of £500 a year as a perk.

lUr. Sparkes: It is a wonder you are not here.

lUr. BURROWS: If I was as hungry as the hon. member, I would be.

The efficiency in the dairying industry has to be stepped up and the only way to do so is by the scientific approach. The hon. member for Fassifern and a number of his colleagues do not want that. They are prepared to go back to the days of old when the dairyman made his own butter, brought it to tmvn and accepted whatever the shopkeeper gave him for it.

An Opposition lliember: What about margarine 'I

lUr. BURROWS: I shall not discuss that, although I am not afraid to do so. There is no sincerity in the motive behind the attack of the hon. member for Fassifern. He endeavoured to stop the Government's approach to the prevention of diseases in cattle. If we had been as careful 50 years ago as we are today many of the pe~ts and diseases now ravaging industries, not only the dairying industry, would not be present today. The hon. member for Fassifem is not a true representative of the clairing industry when he says that the dairymen object to this levy, which is only a fmction of a penny.

I\Ir. I\Iuller: But there are so many fractions.

:il'Ir. BURROWS: There are too many factions among the people over there. The factions on this side are Dot as vulgar as those on the Opposition side. The average dairyman appreciates tl1e actions of the Government. I rose to my feet mainly to correct the impression wwngly conveyed by the hon. member for Fassifern that dairymen resent the assistance the Government give them. Every dairyman I have come in con­tact with appreciates the services of the department and the assistance given by it. If we could afford to employ a greater number the efficiency in the dairying industry would be greatly improved.

lUr. HILEY (Coorparoo) (4.15 p.m.): It would be a black day indeed if ever foot­and-mouth disease found its >>"ay, by some mis­chance, into the cattle herds of this State and the continent. The prospect of its ever happening is so alarming that I see no reason why we should not now lay clown a method of meeting that challenge. But it would be a grave mistake for ns to pass this Bill and then say, ''We have met the challenge of foot-and-mouth disease if ever it should come,'' because, quite plainly, whilst those countries that are afflicted with it take the basic precaution of quarantining an area ancl destroying stock within a certain radius of the quarantine area, they still do not know with any certainty just how the disease is transmitted. Foot-and-mouth disease has the extraordinary habit of recurring years after­wards. In certain cases, areas have been quarantined, all the stock have been destroyed and then, after freedom from the menace for a year or two, it has broken out in the same place. There are other places where there has been an outbreak without any traceable contact or any traceable means by which it could have entered the area.

Stock Acts [14 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 325

There has been no movement of stock either in or out of the district and one of the great puzzles of the countries afflicted with it is to know just how it manages to break out in areas without any explainable reason.

English papers that deal with the problems of the man on the land carry a constant flood of corrc13pondence during the time when these outbreaks occur with experienced scientists and practical farmers all speculating on the reason for it. I have seen some of the correspondence blaming ground-feeding birds, the starling birds in particular. They come in flocks across the channel from the continent and feed in the English fields. Others blame the wood pigeon that comes into England in the spring and summer then flies back across the channel to the con­tinent. Other correspondents will say it is carried on people's boots >Yhilst still others say it is carried in the grooves of the treads of motor tyres.

lUr. J esson: Casey might bring it back from his trips to the Continent.

lUr. HILEY: That may be possible, but if it is, all I can say is that it is a wonder Evatt did not bring it here years ago.

Not one of the countries trying to grapple with this prohlem has yet found a solution. It is only right and proper that we should at least follow what is the accepted method in those countries that have suffered worst from it. This Bill provides that if an out­break should occm there wiH be power to quarantine the area, to prevent any movement of people, and to stop all vehicles passing into or out of that area. That, at least, is the basic remec1y adopted by the countries suffering from it, and it is right that we should follow that example.

But that opens other pToblems on one of which the Bill is lamentably silent while on the other, from what has been said, it raises a grave doubt in my mind. It is significant that the Bill makes it clear that there will be power in the quarantine areas to order the treatment of stock there. I presume that will inelude power to order the destruction of stock.

J1Ir. Burro·ws: They already have that power.

iUr. HILEY: That is clearly set out in the amcnc1ing clauses we have hcfDTc us, but it has to he remembered that in many cases these would not be afflicted stock. There is no parallel between the c1octrine of striking the low rate of compensation which applies to T.B. cattle proved to be reactors and con­cerning which there is no doubt as to their value, and the destruction of stock in a quarantine area or zone which might be 100 per cent. free of any disease. The destruction of that stock is orc1ered as a precautionary measure. Whatever measure of compensation might be ac1opted for T.B. cattle should not be the yarc1stick to measure the value of com­pensation applying to those cattle c1estroyec1 as a precautionary measure when they them­selves are not shown to be sufferers of the disease. It is their misfortune that they happen to be in the 15-mile radius.

Jir. Burrows: It would be a question of fact.

lUr. HILEY: Sure, and it would be a question of fact that the Minister would take into consideration when settling the com­pensation to he paid for the cattle that have to be destroyed. It would be quite right to destroy those cattle on a precautionary basis although they are not suffering from disease at all but to apply the rates !aiel down for proved T.B. reactors is not the right basis. The Bill does not set out the basis of compensation; that matter is left for regu­lations but I say that there is such an important principle in it that the Minister shoulc1 in the ample time I hope he will have before any foot-and-mouth disease occurs in this country, straighten out in his mind the basis of compensation and then write that basis into the Act. It is too important an issue to deal with by means of regul­lation. I urge that the :Minister straighten out what should be the proper principle of compensation for the precautionary slaughter­ing of the cattle and then bring in a subse­quent measure so that the rate can be written into the Act. By all means cany out this precautionary Bill. Concentrate to discover what is the proper and complete precaution to be taken against foot-and-mouth diesease.

::llr. Aikens: There is no cure for it except the destruction of the stock.

Jir. HILEY: And it is not established that that is an absolute cure. Nobotly knows even whether it is a fungus from the soil. Let ns continue to work along the lines of what is happening in the treatment of foot­and-mouth disease in other parts of the world. Let us be prepared to pass this precautionary measure to insure that should the dread disease come to these shores we will have the latest method of guarding against the spread of it through our herds.

iUr. Aikens: It would be tragic if it came to this country.

lUr. HILEY: A complete and utter tragedy, so much so thot I was sorry the matter was treated with such levity this afternoon. An outbreak of foot-and-mouth c1isease would be one of the blackest days in Australia's history.

:;lir. Aikens: Our cattle have not had time to build np any immunity against it.

i'Ir. HILEY: It will decimate our herds.

The Bill deals with boarding kennels of two kinds, the ordinary boarding kennel anc1 the boarding kennel where veterinary service is given to the inmates. In each case this is a wise legislative approach and I like the nroyisionR in the Bill. I am

!acl to see that the Minister is tackling the prevention of an inrrease in contagions diseases. There is need for control of boarding kennels. One ill-kept set of kennels could be the harbourage for an outbreak of canine diseases and we might find that many of the pets of this State would be sadly harmed. The proposed measure should ensure

326 Stock Acts Amendment Bill. [ASSEMBLY.]

the establishment of decent boarding kennels and well-kept veterinary hospitals for dogs and eats, which I regard as a beneficial step.

JUr. SPARKES (Aubigny) (4.25 p.m.): I should like to impress upon the Minister the fact that this is far too important a matter for one State to handle alone. Although I realise that with swift air travel it is quite possible that this dread disease could be introduced into Australia, no-one can possibly imagine what will happen if it uoes break out here. Compensation has been mentioned, but if the Minister has some frar that the disease will be introduced into Australia, the sooner he and his fellow Minis­ters in the other States get together with the Commonwealth Minister, the better. No one State will be in a position to pay out tlte amount of compensation that will be ]' ··juired if the uisease is introduced here. It "ill mn into millions of pounds.

Jlr. ColUns: The matter was raised by the Premier at a recent Premiers' Conference.

JUr. SPARKES: I am very pleased to hear that. This is a mntter that must be dealt with by the whole of Australia.

)lr. )'\'alsh: We cannot wait for the other Stntes to take the initiative.

)Ir. SP ARKES: I quite appre-ciate that, l>nt the Minister should get in touch with his fellow Ministers in the other States.

Anyone who says that the cattlemen should bear the cost of it is not in his right senses. As I say, the amount involved would run into millions of pounds. Not long ago I purchased five heifers in England for £5,000, and they all had to be destroyed although not one of them had foot-and-mouth disease. The Minister knows that a big stud in England had to be destroyecl--

)Ir. Aikens: Why were they destroyed?

3Ir. SP ARKES: Because they were in an affected area. It is necessary to destroy every beast in the area. The cost of destroy­ing the stud to which I have just referred would have been about £400,000 or £500,000.

The United Stud Stockbreeders' Associa­tion of Austmlia, of which I have the honour t<J be president, will be only too glad to co-operate in anything that is clone from nn Australia-wide point of view. This is a mfltter in which State boundaries cannot be recognised; the whole of Australia is involved. It is childish to talk about the industry bearing the cost of destruction.

Hon. H. H. COLLINS (Tablelands­Secretary for Agriculture and Stock) ( 4.29 p.m.), in reply: Many matters of interest have been raised during the debate. I refer particularly to the contributions by the hon. member for Fassifern-,tlthough he did not deal with the principles of the Bill-the Leader of the Opposition, and the hon. mem­bers for Hinchinbrook, Coorparoo, and Aubigny.

(Leave to continue speech tomorrow granted.)

The House adjourned at 4.32 p.m.

Questions.