Koptová: Help for the Roma must come with return obligations

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of 15http://www.mecem.sk/dprint.php?lang=english&show=18110

Kristína Magdolenová, Jarmila Va!ová

medial.centerWith Anna Koptová, a member of the Slovak National Council from 1990–1992, about life, the VelvetRevolution and the gains and losses of the Roma over the past 20 yearsKoptová: Help for the Roma must come with return obligations

| 2010-01-21

I come from Ke!marok, from a big musical family. Today I can say that

my childhood was different than that of most Roma. Certainly because

I had terrific parents and grandparents on both sides. I have eight

siblings, so my mother had to devote a lot of time to her children and

the entire family, and later, when we had grown up, she went to work.

My father worked manually in the morning at Tatra"an and in the

afternoon went to play with the Magura folklore group. My parents had

a life plan. They wanted their children to be educated so that they

could live a better life than they themselves had had. The Klempár

family, known for being good, in-demand musicians, very often played

in high society and there they saw how life can be pleasant if you are

educated, respectable and materially well-off. Such things, learned by

watching, got into our family. My oldest sister after primary school

went to study at a secondary school. This was at the beginning of the

1960s and was really unusual for the Roma but also for Slovakia.

And how was it with you?

Similar. When I started in the first grade at primary school, there were five or six Roma in ourclass. But when I started ninth grade, I was then the only one. I didn’t perceive the cross-section of everything that was happening from the position of the Roma or Slovak, or Hungarianor Czech, but simply from the position of a person who has a plan for life and is going after it. Iwanted to study...

Was it obvious what you would do?

When I asked my class teacher in about the eighth grade of primary school what kind ofsecondary school I have to study at for me to become a journalist, everyone was surprised.None of my schoolmates had yet to consider their future as specifically as I had. My classteacher was so taken back by the question that she didn’t even answer me. Yes, I knew what Iwanted to be and what I wanted to study.

When I went to the secondary school for the entrance exams, the math teacher asked me why Ihad decided to study at this secondary school. And I told him: “Because I want to studyjournalism.” In a very short time word got around the whole town that Klempárová wants to bea journalist. And after the entire three years I was in secondary school, the teachers finallynoticed me. I was that one who was going to be a journalist and so they acted that way towardme.

Let’s go back to your childhood. Do you think you had a happy childhood?

I certainly didn’t suffer from hunger or physical violence or things which evoke negativeemotions. In contrast, there were other feelings which pushed me forward. Mainly because myparents gave me the space that allowed me to read a great deal, to do the things thatinterested me, and they didn’t impose their own image of how they imagined my life.

What did your broader family have to say, your aunts and uncles?

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I think they admired us and maybe even envied us a little. But this was a positive form of envy.In addition, I’ve actually learned that we were a positive example. Others around us also beganto do the things we did.

You ultimately did study journalism. Why journalism exactly?

Because information fascinates me. Information really can show us how our world looks, howthe relationships between people look. Because information can praise and encourage. Simplythat it can give you and other people a certain life perspective.

When did you get married?

When I was studying I didn’t even think about getting married. This could not be my toppriority. Later when I came to work, life – real life – took me unaware; it was so hectic and Iwanted to find the answer to everything. I got married in my thirties.

Were you surprised when you started working? Did school prepare you for working in themedia?

We learned theory in school, but they didn’t teach us to create in the sense needed for dailymedia work. My most common question in the field was the question “why”. Why, why, why?Because I didn’t understand a lot of things. I didn’t understand why people say one thing and inreal life do something different. I ran across the inconsistency, the conflict of theory withpractice. What they taught us in school and what I read in literature differed from what Ilearned at work. I needed to find out for myself why real life is different. I needed to hear theanswers to a lot of questions, because if I didn’t find them, I would suffer a great deal or Iwouldn’t be able to do my work as a journalist.

Was it unusual for a Roma woman to study journalism?

I lived with the idea that socialism is a good philosophy, that it is something that genuinelyhelps people. I mainly studied the last three years at university and lived from a state stipend.

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In the end I was able to save ten thousand crowns – a relatively large amount of money backthen!

I didn’t have any conflicts with the old regime when I was studying. Even though I was a rarityat school, because long before then and long after, in fact even today, almost no Roma registerto study journalism at university. But the year I started, there were actually two of us: Mariánand I. I took the entrance exams, but then I received a notice at home saying that I was notaccepted due to the lack of places. My world fell apart then. But after that I got an appealfrom my class leader. I went at a certain time to the post office and there Mr. Kadnártelephoned me. He asked me about the decision and when I told him that I’d not beenaccepted, he told me that he would immediately write an appeal. With faint hopes I went tomy Slovak language teacher and on that same day we wrote the appeal. Then some ten dayslater the saving reply came: they had accepted me at school. I don’t know, but it seems to methat for the first time in the history of universities here in Slovakia two Roma were accepted toa particular course of study. The other thing was that Marián was constantly in conflict withthe regime. He said something publicly. I think that’s why he had to leave in the third year.They simply threw him out of school. I always said: ”Marián, everything can be done in apolite, intelligent way.“ Indeed, the person who got me into school was for many years amember of the Communist Party and was in an executive function, but he had within himself asense for just things. Then later during my studies he told me about quotas. He considered itthe peak of injustice that because of this they couldn’t accept me. He was my class leader forfive full years. He was for me a great support and such a great person who was bravely able tobattle for the less well-off, the less mobile and the less visible. I didn’t have any reason todistrust him.

What was the change from school to work like at the toughest time of the socialist regime?

Not quite a year after I completed school, I received permission to go to Geneva for the secondcongress of the Roma. At the time I had no idea that there are Roma in the world who wereactive in some way, who did things related to questions of identity. And this was the beginningof a conflict which lingered for a long time.

Let’s return to your love life. In what year did you get married?

I got married in 1984 and Martinka was born in 1985. I was thirty-one years old.

I know that you married a Slovak man and that you are still together. Did you have anyproblems, for example, in your family? How did your family accept your decision?

I wasn’t the first in our family who entered into a mixed marriage. There was a certain amountof stress in the family when my older brother married a Polish woman. But my brother didn’trespect the fears of my parents. We were living in a large family house and at that time we hadone divided room on the ground floor where it was possible to live independently, so hebrought this girl home and after there was a wedding. My other brother and my sister marriedthe same way. So that when I got married, this was no longer unusual or unnatural. It wouldhave been a bigger surprise to marry a Roma because by and large we didn’t have partners onour level.

What is your level? What do you mean?

Well, simply put, people who have some goal in life, who are able to study and workindependently regardless of whether or not someone has prejudices against them. We simplyacted independently and in our life we didn’t focus on dependence on the state, but on a lifeplan. Later, after finishing school, I gradually realized that the majority of Roma live from dayto day and I was surprised by this. This never happened in our family. There was always a view

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to the future in our family. What will happen in a week, in a month, in a year; what willhappen in five years, in ten years... Our parents always lived with a thought for the future –how to provide for it. For the family, for children.

Despite this fact, were there any misunderstandings due to the differences in cultureswhen you got married? Or were there things which you didn’t or haven’t resolved?

No, we didn’t resolve such things because both my husband and I were then materially secureand we acted as free people. I had my own flat, which I got through the Engineering workswhere I worked. Then when I returned from Geneva I came into conflict with the state securitysystem and had to leave the editorial staff I was working in. I left and went to the Engineeringworks, to the company newsletter, and since I wasn’t from Ko!ice, I lived for a long time in aboarding house. For this reason I eventually decided that I’ll leave Ko!ice and go to Bratislava,where I had a chance to get a flat. When the Engineering Works director learned of this, heasked me what it was all about. I said: “I have to leave because I don’t have a place to livehere and I refuse to keep living in a boarding house.” And he said: “And this is a problem?”Within two weeks I had a company flat assigned to me. This surprised me, and again I wasaware that socialism wasn’t so bad so long as something really depended on it. My husband alsohad his own flat so we weren’t reliant on one family or the other. My husband announced to hisfamily that if they didn’t reconcile with his intention to marry me, then he’d simply leave thefamily. But his father didn’t want to lose a son. They understood the reality and in that spiritthey behaved well towards us and still do.

Does this mean you have good relations?

Yes, we don’t have any big conflicts; we’ve never analyzed things around my origins to suchdepths as to cause some conflict in our relationship.

Let’s again return to the theme we’ve already touched upon but that we’ve not yetexplained: When you returned from Geneva, you had a problem with the "tB (statesecurity). What kind of problem?

Well, it was surprising for me. Really, it was surprising. You know, when you leave school fullof optimism, ideals and I don’t know what else, how you can change the world... This was ashock. I had no idea how the regime functioned. When I started working at the Eastern Slovakianewspaper I did the things that the editor needed, mainly news reporting. As the new personafter university I didn’t have a claim on any opinion. So we along with a colleague learned howto do news reports and things related to that. Before I got a chance to put my opinion in thenewspaper, I got to go to Geneva.

When I returned, perhaps two weeks later, state security invited me for an interview. Theycalled me in and asked me things which were surprising to me. For example: what I did inGeneva, with whom did I meet, what exactly do these Gypsies in the world want, why are theybattling against socialism, why did I meet with Ján Cibu", whether I know who there isdeveloping subversive activities against the socialist state. This surprised me unbelievably and Iwas taken unawares. Why did they want to make a spy of me… This was an unbelievableexperience for me, as was the interrogation for the #tB and the trip to Geneva.

In Geneva I namely met with Roma from all over the world. There was a representative therefrom India. I still carry this person in my head. During the opening ceremony of the congress heheld in his hand an Indian scarf and in it was soil. Indian soil. He came and he said: “This isyour soil.” A bewildering moment. At that moment, for the first time in my life, I was awarethat the Roma belong somewhere, that they come from somewhere, that they have roots andthat people live in the world who know these roots and freely declare them.

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What did state security actually say to you?

They said that I am an enemy of the Czechoslovak people. The first question they asked mewas whether I had signed Charter 77, because there was an article about the Roma there. Atthe time they asked this I didn’t even know that such a charter existed. So I told them that Idon’t know what they are talking about and I don’t know what they want from me but I wantto tell them that what I experienced in Geneva was for me a gigantic experience and now Ihave to think about the it in a broader context. For them this was actually my admission that Ihad done something wrong in Geneva, something anti-socialist. Immediately on the firstmeeting they proposed regular meetings with me, because I am a journalist and this meansthat I meet with a lot of people and could know a lot of things. I replied that I don’t need tospeak with them and I don’t know why I should talk about these things with them. After thatwe didn’t meet, but they continued to invite me. They invited me so that they could ask mewhat I’m doing, how I’m living, with whom I’m to meet and what I plan to do with them. Latermy editor-in-chief said that he had giant problems at the regional committee of the partybecause of me.

Why?

At that time when a person went abroad, he needed to have consent of the Communist Party. Iwas actually a worker for the regional committee of the party because the newspaper was anorgan of the Regional Committee of the Communist Party of Slovakia in Ko!ice. When I wassupposed to go to Geneva, the committee had to meet and say yes. Something happened,however, that was completely out of their hands. When I returned, I was already a very well-known person because all the party elements knew about me. Everyone knew that Klempárováwas in Geneva and that she needed to be watched carefully. So from this time up to 1989 the#tB kept an eye on me. In the end, when I worked at the Engineering works, these were veryinteresting affairs... Once, for example, while washing my hands in the toilet, a worker fromthe civil defense department said to me: “You know you should be more careful.” I said:“Why?” And she said: “You know that for two weeks now people have been sitting by me andwatching your every step.” Despite everything, I hadn’t noticed such things like someone wasactually following me. When they summoned me, I had always told them something about whatI am doing, how I’m doing it and such. Once they phoned me at work and announced to methat they knew that I had begun to intensively study English. I didn’t even know how torespond. I still didn’t understand what they wanted from me. I didn’t do anything; I justworked. They valued my work in the editorial office and I won some competitions, not knowingthat I’m doing thing which have some repercussions. But I later learned that this was a greatchallenge for me, because I had no idea how big an enemy I was for society.

You said that the "tB intruded on your privacy...

I had one relationship after finishing school that was threatening to lead to a wedding. So the#tB invited this guy in and asked him if he knows who I am, and whether he knows what couldbecome of his life, how his family could suffer. He was shocked, frightened...

After these experiences, I warned the woman with whom I lived in the boarding house, so thatif someone from the #tB were to ask about me or invite her to a debate about me, it didn’tcatch her unawares. She laughed it off because she felt very free and she said that I’mcertainly making it all up and exaggerating. Afterwards a time came when she didn’t speak tome for nearly two weeks. But not because she was angry at me, but because she hadexperienced something very personal and intense. And then she told me: “They came afterme.” She didn’t know how to come to terms with this. They wanted the same from my partner.And then completely, completely at the end – this was the high-water mark, as a person canlater realize in hindsight, about what kind of great enemy I was for the Czechoslovak people: Iworked at that time at VSS, in the company newspaper Strojár. I was doing a report in

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worked at that time at VSS, in the company newspaper Strojár. I was doing a report inPrakovce. They made belts for tanks there. I went there and for the first time I met with theRoma, with a great number of Roma. They worked in a very hazardous, dusty or even toxicenvironment. I went to the personnel department and to people who had this under their careand I asked why workers in the first operation didn’t have any normal protective gear. And theytook it like this, that I, a Roma woman, am standing up for the Roma. Obviously, this affectedme but far more important was for me the fact that people worked in this unprotectedoperation and are being exposed to a direct hazard to their health and life. The fact that I wastaking photographs in the operation where you couldn’t do such a thing since it was a militaryproduction facility and that I was speaking with the Roma, all of this was quickly spread aroundthe entire plant. When I left, the security agent stopped me at the gate and took my film andthe article I was writing about it and it remained unprinted. Shortly after the Velvet RevolutionI learned from a friend that in an interview with some people from the state security my namecame up and when she admitted that she knows me, one of the former #tB workers said: ”Wewere preparing to accuse her.“ She also told me that this would have involved what I’d done atthe plant in Prakovce, that I’d done some anti-state things and that the #tB judged this astreason. So if the Velvet Revolution hadn’t occurred, I’d be sitting in prison as a traitor.

So working as a journalist at this time was dangerous?

As you can see, yes. On one hand they taught us that if a person wants to work as a journalist,wants to work with information, he should process it such that it helps people, gives themhope, that it is genuinely encouraging, so that people know that it’s worth living honestlybecause we really do come into this world with a certain mission and errand. And then yousimply see that you have only barriers on this road and it’s all up to you whether you jump overthem or creep under them. Shortly before the revolution two secret service agents came to myhome with a warning that I not undertake anything, that indeed now this perestroika is hereand it’s necessary to wait it out. One of them, his name was Peter and I remember himbecause he was the only #tB agent who ever told me his name, very humanely tried to tell methis, so that I didn’t do anything and uselessly hurt myself or my family, as if he wanted tosignal me that the regime was going to fail soon and that there was no reason to pointlesslytake risks.

After all of these difficulties don’t you regret that trip to Geneva?

When I look back now, I had a great deal of remorse because of those close to me, becausethey followed my sisters, brothers and family. I well remember when my younger brother wasnot accepted to the Ko!ice conservatory and my youngest sister with difficulty left to study in$ilina because in Ko!ice was the center of attention of party elements. On the other hand, youhave to gain experience so that you can to evaluate, so you can maybe have a more qualifiedopinion and so that you can make more objective decisions. And for this reason I think thatGeneva was for me a great life experience.

How did you get involved in politics, with the Roma?

Now this was interesting. A journalist, whether he wants to be or not, is also a politician, apublic person, and gets involved in politics every day. When I finished studying journalism, Ihad a couple of week’s holiday before I started working at the Eastern Slovakia News. Then Icame to know Milena Hübschmannová. I’d heard before then that she dealt with Roma issues.She lived for a certain time in Rakúsy, in a Roma settlement not far from Ke%marok.Coincidentally, my older sister, who studied pedagogy and worked in a preschool, was aninteresting type for Milena. So through my sister she came to visit us at home. She knew that Ihad just completed my studies and that I had holiday time. She said: “You know I’m taking atrip through the osadas (settlements), and then I’m going to Budapest for some people; if youwant you can come with me”. And what should a journalist say to that? This could not berefused. I agreed. I’m going on a trip with Mrs. Hübschmannová, I said.

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refused. I agreed. I’m going on a trip with Mrs. Hübschmannová, I said.What was that like then? How did this trip affect you?

Our first stop was in $ehra, because Mrs. Hübschmanová knew some people there from previousmeetings and had to record some narratives. I then went to a settlement and saw what it waslike for the first time. Good God, people can live this way? – I asked myself. And whathappened to us there? We sat in one larger room with about 50 Roma. Milena gave them moneyfor a drink. They offered us bread and bacon. I have a problem eating such things as bacon andsalami. They offer and you don’t take it! So I forced myself to take some. I survived it and inthe end even enjoyed it. Why? Simply because those people who came there gave off thisgigantic positive energy, such fellowship. One person there told a fairy tale perhaps threehours long without stopping. And the people there simply wept, smiled, lived through this fairytale. They lived through his narrative. This was an unbelievable experience for me. On onehand there was this terrible poverty, but on the other the giant spiritual size of these people.This was a conflict. A journalist must be interested in conflict and must figure out the “why”.

Did Mrs. Hübschmannová in some way try to help you perceive all of this?

Later she started to talk about a lot of things and introduce me to literature. She told me:“You have to write. Who else, if not you! Indeed, you’re a journalist. For you this will not be aproblem”. I said – okay, I’ll write. But in Slovak, in Romani barely at all. But she pressured me,in a good way, understandably.

Did you have any specific experiences with the Roma and politics prior to the revolution?

Yes, we met with Emil #&uk, Karol Holomko and other activists around them in CzechRepublic.In Slovakia Dezider Oláh, Balá%, Gerge" worked fearlessly, also a lot of people I knew thanks toCibu"ová and Hübschmannová. We all felt like Roma, not Gypsies, or citizens of gypsy origin, asthe official statistics identified us. But tell that to the Communists! Once Gorbachev andperestroika arrived it was no longer possible to be quiet. In the fall of 1988 the party made agesture. It expressed a willingness to discuss things with the Roma. We had two meeting on thegrounds of the Central Committee of the Communist Party in Prague. The discussion was veryhard, confrontational. Eventually, Central Committee Party Secretary Karel Hofman promisedus that our request that the party acknowledge us as a national minority would be taken up atthe discussions of the Central Committee, which was to sit in January of the following year.The communists, however, didn’t stand their ground. In January they threw everything on thetable. When November 1989 arrived, we were ready for regime change. That’s why the firstpolitical party – the Roma Civic Initiative – originated in the first days of the revolutionsmoothly, quickly and without problems.

You were a member of the Slovak National Council in the years 1990–1992. What did thatmean for you personally and for your professional life? Since then the Roma haven’tactually had any representation in parliament...

If I recall, there was one Roma in parliament who was a representative of the CommunistParty, but he never spoke about us as Roma. If I have to judge this in retrospect, then maybe Ishould acknowledge that I was there first and that I brought up a lot of things in Slovakia whichwere not very pleasant and not a priority for Slovaks. But members of parliament, whetherthey wanted to or not, had to discuss our ideas and demands for recognition of the Roma ascitizens of a national minority.

What did that mean for me? At that time I was on maternity leave; my second daughter wasone and a half years old when I went to parliament. I worked on the committee for minoritiesand human rights. The MPs on this committee had an understanding for me, even though wewere often in a great clash of opinions and interests. Immediately upon the first meeting of thecommittee I announced that the one goal of ROI, and thus for me, is the legislative anchoring

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of the Roma in the constitution as a national minority. It took some moments while the otherMPs began to accept our opinions. Luckily, democratically thinking people were in parliamentthen, so they couldn’t really do otherwise, only say: Yes, the Roma have the right and we mustcreate the legislative conditions to change things in their favor. And these are those thingswhich contemporary authors of sundry professional analyses and other texts are silent about.After not quite two years, we achieved what had never been done during the entire previousperiod of the presence of the Roma on the European continent. And I must also say that fromthat time up to this moment, nothing else more important or more of a turning point has beenachieved than that which we, the Roma MPs in the Slovak National Council and the FederalAssembly, did then.

Can we return to this and mention some specifics?

The legislative principles were laid for all who can be characterized as a minority. Many peoplewere certainly not pleased by this, but luckily there is always a group of people in society whohave a clear vision. We wanted the Roma to be constituted as a national minority. Thishappened. Parliament discussed the basic documents. The government approved them. Thefederal government acted on the basis of these principles. It’s not true, as some others havestated, that the federal government and federal parliament acted first. These things were firstdone in Slovakia and only then did the federal process run. And it matters to me if someonesays otherwise. I came to the Slovak parliament in July 1990 and by April the following year thegovernment had accepted the Principles of governmental policies regarding the Roma. In sucha short time! The federal government and parliament also dealt with this, but not in such aform that matters eventually were implemented in. This means that if there had been no RomaMPs and if they hadn’t clearly known what they wanted, there would be no principles, becausethe other MPs weren’t prepared to negotiate and discuss this theme of their own volition. Wewere the only ones who took the Roma minority agenda into parliament. Look, since then wehaven’t been there at all and who is dealing with the Roma? No one.

Roma national education, the basics of Roma culture... the Romathan Theatre didn’t originatebecause some activists wanted it. This is not true. There were earlier attempts but they wereonly academic. Eventually, organising such a theatre was discussed in the Ministry of Culture.But “skutek utek” (“empty words”) as the old folklore saying goes. When I received inparliament the proposed state budget which was to be approved in December 1991, Idiscovered that not one ministry was planning to give a single crown for programmes for theRoma. I went to the Ministries of Cultures and Education and I said: “Look at everything wetalked about, and you didn’t give a single crown for ethnic development of the Roma.” They allsaid that there’s no money that the system is changing and so on. Things changed in parliamentwhen the MPs voted on my proposals. If the proposal for organising a Roma professional theatrehadn’t been accepted, the theatre wouldn’t exist today. If I hadn’t submitted a proposal inyear zero, perhaps there wouldn’t be any assistants. At the time a person I worked closely withat university became deputy minister of education. I completed his seminar on the minds ofpupils and about limits in behaviour. I knew him as a just, wise, responsible person and anexpert. He supported our project for a Roma conservatorium. He helped us in everything andthat’s why study at the Ko!ice conservatory was opened as of the fall of 1991. The first yearwasn’t very successful and there was a danger that it would disappear. We, however, enduredin this so that the school could exist as a secondary arts school with a musical-dramaticspecialisation. We asked the director of the conservatory if some sponsor could take over theschool and that he also be the director of the school for the first years. I once read that thearts school originated on the initiative of teachers from the Ko!ice conservatory. So that’s howthings are! For me, truthful and objective information is important... History is important forevery nation and it needs to be recorded correctly and not as what is convenient to us.

At that time Romano #il also originated, which was perhaps your favourite concern...

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For example. If we’re now talking about history... Consider Romano "il, the masthead ofRomano "il! This is something unbelievable. I know that Denisa Havr"ová suffered after thedeath of Daniela #ilanová, because she’d lost someone near to her. But with a journalist,emotion cannot be the most important thing. I have to respect the rules, the facts. In themasthead of the RN' (Romano nevo "il) it’s mentioned that their publisher is the civicassociation Jekhetane and next to that they have written the word Spolu (Together). Thismeans that at least three people had to found the newspaper. Romano nevo "il is thecontinuation and proper successor of Romano "il. Not too long ago I read an interviewwith Denisa Havr"ová and there she mentioned the same thing. I say – for goodness sakes, if Iwere to now write to Mr. Sudor at SME (Editor’s note: author of the mentioned interview), thatwhat Denisa, said isn’t the whole truth, what would he think of me? Only this: that the Gypsiesare again infighting. They aren’t even able to mutually respect and support themselves!Perhaps someday I’ll write, when the right time comes, but at the moment I’m ashamed. Thisis not a different feeling in me, only ordinary shame. I’ve grown used to the fact that credit fororganising the Romathan Theatre is given to someone else, not to the real initiator andfounder. Similarly also with other projects from year zero. For me what’s important is theknowledge that we are recalling programmes that give people hope and work and which arecovered financially from the state budget. This is a sign of the fact that these are goodprojects and that they influence public opinion and confirm the identity of the Roma. Whatelse, if not a theatre, should influence positive ethnic identification? What else, if not anewspaper, should influence the awareness of people? But that’s why it’s necessary to preservethe justice, because a newspaper should publish the truth, not lies or half-truths.

But most importantly, perhaps, is that the Roma were acknowledged as a national minority.

Undoubtedly! The most important thing we achieved was when I convinced MPs – witharguments, not emotions – of the need to acknowledge the Roma as a national minority. All ofthe other activities followed from this. Dana #ilanová was not behind the founding of thenewspaper Romano "il. Elena Lacková, Miro Lacko and I were there. Three people. Weestablished the Cultural Association of Citizens of Roma Nationality and this became thepublisher of Romano "il. At that time the newspaper came out as a weekly. Dana #ilanová cameto us on the editorial staff just prior to the first edition in August 1991. The Roma and thepublic judged the editorial work positively. The newspaper had an echo. It began to have itsimpact and more people became aware that it could be a good instrument for a politicalbattle. The battle really did begin; interested groups spoke up and threatened that thenewspaper would vanish or get into the wrong hands. And so the paper changed its publisher.Along with Dana #ilanová, we founded the association Jekhetane – Spolu – and this became thepublisher of the newspaper with the new masthead Romano nevo "il. In the year 1992 I wasalready director of the Romathan Theatre and I didn’t have the time to lead the editorial staff,so Danka became the editor-in-chief. The newspaper gradually lost its regular periodicity asthere wasn’t enough money to operate the editorial staff, pay editors, for printing. It becamean intermittent periodical. Unfortunately, it stopped being a newspaper in the proper meaningof the word. It’s not possible for me, as a Roma in a Roma newspaper that comes out with athree-month delay, to learn that Czechoslovakia has voted for a new president. I can’t identifywith the way Danka conducted media policies. Indeed, yesterday’s newspaper is old newstoday. Information is only important when it’s up-to-date. I need it right now and not withthree-months delay, especially in the age of the Internet. And that’s why I consider all theinformation which comes from the Roma environment and is delayed as old news and thereforeuseless. If we accept old and out-of-date information as new, we are preserving in the Roma adelayed reaction; we are conserving in them action ex-post or no action at all, becausepotential problems are already crystallised, discussed out at another time with other people.Yes, newspapers are essential and needed, but current newspapers!

Founding a newspaper, this was your life...

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Obviously, this was a natural continuation of my life.

In the end you were an MP in the Slovak National Council. Was that an easy decision?

Emil #&uka tried to persuade me to go to the federal parliament. I couldn’t do it at the timebecause I was on maternity leave. My daughter wasn’t even 6 months old. So it was decidedthat I’d go to the Slovak National Council. I said that it is closer, sits just once a month, so Ican handle this. This wasn’t entirely true, but it was for the most part.

At that time the Romathan Theatre was founded...

Romathan originated when parliament agreed on my proposal and provided 10 million crownsfor organising a Roma professional theatre. In May of 1992 the minister named me as directorof this theatre. I was there for five years. During those five years, the theatre’s activities cameinto the awareness not only of Slovakia, but of the worldwide public. We took a lot of tripsabroad, and everywhere we received an unreal response. On the other hand, I have to ask:where isn’t there a response when Roma artists come? Today, however, this doesn’t justinvolve the spontaneous reaction of a grateful spectator. It’s now necessary to show the qualityof the opinion. And Romathan, in my opinion, doesn’t do this, long hasn’t done this. Theatre,newspapers, these are what make a nation a nation, what characterizes the spiritual wealthand identity. What were the first things the Slovaks did? They published newspapers. Languageand news, because for the most part, language is the news. If our gymnasium hadn’t beenfounded, perhaps today we wouldn’t have rules for Roma grammar and spelling, because at thesecondary arts school for at least 15 years now students have taken leaving exams in the Romalanguage, but no pedagogical documents were developed; there were no materials, nothingwhich would make teaching this language official. The origin of our school was tied to therealisation of two national projects which the Ministry of Education approved in 2003. Thisinvolved a project for experimental verification of the effectiveness of the curriculum in thesubject of Roma language and literature and Roma culture in primary and secondary schools.By working up teaching plans, outlines and standards the process of standardisation of theRoma language could also reach a peak. If Mrs. Hübschmanová hadn’t laid these giganticfoundations and hadn’t done perhaps 90 percent of the work for us, we wouldn’t have achievedstandardization and there wouldn’t be any documents.

What in your opinion does the language mean to the Roma?

I’ve often thought about this. I had this opportunity to meet with Roma from all over theworld. Even then in Geneva the Roma spoke – and we understood everything. If the Romahadn’t preserved their language, they wouldn’t be here. There would be some group of people,some people, persons, but they would not be Roma. Lose your language and you completelylose everything. In Spain, for instance, the Roma lost their language and they were literallyuprooted. They know that they aren’t Spanish but they don’t know how to integrate intosociety because they feel different and feel deeply the patterns of life.

Is it important to know where a person belongs?

If you live in a society in which there are no differences, if the society isn’t divided intonobility and vassals, nations, nationalities, classes, layers, perhaps this would not benecessary. This is my theory.

To the extent, however, that ethnicities are identified in the society, then perhaps a personneeds to have the certainty and safe feeling of being rooted. I, however, mainly feel like aperson and I want people to treat me like a person. Not as a Roma, not as a Slovak, not as anEnglish woman, but as a person. And since we have in our country something like a minorityand some part of the citizenry are officially declared Roma, a group to which I belong, then in

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that case I want the state, the regime, to behave towards me first as a citizen, and then as amember of the Roma minority. And since I completely naturally want to protect my ownculture and language, then I also want to fulfill the right to draw on the state budget forresources for my own ethnic development.

You mentioned Spain. What did you do in Spain?

Marcel Courthiade organised a summer language course in France. There I met Roma from allover Europe and there were Spanish Roma there. They didn’t speak Romani at all. They arefully uprooted in terms of the language. But their sentiments are Roma. They behave just likethe Roma behave everywhere else in the world. I don’t understand why, but this is how it is.When I again met with one of them, Carlos, after some years, I was unbelievably surprised,because he then spoke better in Romani than I do, and what was interesting was that heunderstood all the Roma in the group, because he learned an international variant of the Romalanguage in a summer school. He was able to speak with me, with French Roma, English,because he could handle all the regional differences in the language while the others onlyunderstood their own home version. So I told him that he was the best among us in speakingthe Romani language. At the same time this is a nomadic Rom. On the other hand it’s true thathe and his family were the greatest initiators of change in Spain in relation to the Romanilanguage. There is even a workplace which deals with the Romani language at the university inSevilla. Roma in Spain, Denmark, Sweden, Finland attend courses and learn the Romanilanguage. Why? Because they are not part of their home societies. Because they are not rootedin the structures of the majority society. It is said that if you don’t have in a group, acommunity or a nationality at least 30 percent of the people who through their professional orhuman interaction are able to influence the awareness of others, nothing can be changedqualitatively. This means that here in Slovakia, if at least 30 percent of the Roma who declarethemselves as Roma aren’t rooted in the system and don’t have an interest in working in thesethings, then we can’t expect miracles. This is how social processes function. It can’t bespeeded up through appeals or crying or humiliation or offending or anything. Simply literacy,the human and the professional capabilities of at least 30 percent of a group must correspondwith the level of the majority society. Otherwise, the Roma will not become a part of thesociety in any country.

Do you think that enough has been done for the Roma language to be fully valued by thepublic? So that the Roma can use it?

Again, I’ll repeat myself. If in the structure of a society at least 30 percent of the people don’tcare about an issue, then an individual can’t do anything. That’s why I say - no. Even thoughwe could mention the number of schools attended only by Roma pupils, and in this connectioncould logically assume an interest of Roma to be educated in their native language. But theRoma aren’t interested, not even the teachers are interested. Teachers because they are notqualified to perform professionally and maybe even from a personal point of view, in this field,and the Roma because they are ashamed of their language and don’t see any particular reasonand purpose in it.

Is the Roma minority in your opinion equivalent with other minorities?

A minority in terms of legislation, certainly yes. Because simply put, the law is the law.Unfortunately, the Roma are still not perceived as a nation, a minority. Naturally, I can’tgeneralise, but there is a certain layer, but not so numerous, which could more seriouslyinfluence the awareness of those others who don’t see the benefits of binding themselves to anethnicity. Roma children only know Slovak language on the surface; they are able to speak init, but they don’t know how to think in it, to associate, to think abstractly. The Slovaklanguage is for a pupil who doesn’t know the teaching language on the level of thinking, simplya great handicap. This doesn’t mean only Roma children, but pupils in general. This is a rule of

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a great handicap. This doesn’t mean only Roma children, but pupils in general. This is a rule ofthumb. I’m afraid that for this reason the Roma don’t really have a chance in the future in aworldwide or in a European context to be equal to other minorities.

We have a codified and standardised Roma language, so what should come next?

Above all the Roma should learn and respect the standard. If Slovaks had not begun to respectthe standardised Slovak language, it’s more than certain that they would not have seen theirown statehood. And Slovak has a lot of dialects; it’s spoken differently in every village. And doSlovaks resist learning in written Slovak? No. Because this is their civic duty.

First of all, the people who work with the Roma language should be able to speak standardisedRomani. This is so natural that it’s embarrassing to speak about it. I often run acrossincomprehension, a lack of understanding, sometimes even a refusal of the Roma language inthe educational process of Roma pupils. The so-called battle against illiteracy doesn’t happennaturally, but purposefully. Some 30,000 children in Slovakia are educated in special educationschools. I’m convinced that the majority of them don’t belong there and they merely wind upthere because parents and, unfortunately, the pupil and teacher accept the less difficult path.Battle afterwards against illiteracy... Look, everything in the system is secondary so long as wedon’t resolve primary things. Zero-year students, assistants, such as they are, are only asecondary concern when we don’t resolve the main problem, that is the ability of a pupil to beeducated in his or her native language. If we don’t resolve this, we are breaching internationalagreements, the legal and right of a child to be educated in his own language. It isincomprehensible how the state, the system, the regime can publicly discriminate children onlybecause they enter school with a different mother tongue than the official state language. Andafterwards, they identify the pupil as incapable and put him into a special education school.And that’s why the Roma should more intensively demand that their children be educated intheir mother tongue.

In the past you supported the statement of European member of parliament Linden aboutthe placement of Roma children in boarding schools. Why are boarding schools appropriatein your opinion?

The cream of the intellectual crop, for example, in Great Britain grew up in quality boardingschools. But they actually went there with the idea that they would one day form the cream ofthe intellectual crop. So this is the idea of boarding schools. But the other position of boardingschools, the position of our boarding schools is about what? About how we want to put all thechildren together who need the most fundamental help. I’m not talking about all the Roma.Only about those who really need it. It’s not possible for a mother to decide whether her childbelongs in a special education school or a primary school and at the same time not understandthe associations. Where have we arrived at? How is this possible? That an illiterate mother istoo lazy to get up in the morning and prepare a child to go to school. I know what I’m talkingabout. I would lock up such a lazy and irresponsible mother in a reformatory and createconditions for a decent life for the child. I know that these are emotionally traumatisedchildren, but keep in mind that after a certain time in a dormitory this child will not want toreturn to a home where he was tyrannized, hungry, dirty. Because he’ll have a differentexperience. He’ll know how to differentiate, understand, value his chances in life. In thesecases where I see that the parents don’t take care, they do drugs, simply show signs of anti-social behaviour, I would take away the children without hesitation. And the mother should payfor this. I only want to tell them in this way that children should only come into the world ifthe parents are aware of their responsibility for this new life. Our regime, however, toleratesthe fact that some parents don’t care for their own children and literally are parasites onthem.

That is, in this Roma community the rights of a child are still not among the highest rights?In majority society the right of a child is the highest right which is followed during all

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In majority society the right of a child is the highest right which is followed during allpossible processes, conflicts, but here as if it is ignored...

This is not ignored here. Here this is public, tolerated and visible.

You are the director of a gymnasium attended by a majority of Roma pupils but alsostudents from a bad family environment. How do the parents perceive you? Why this kindof school exactly?

All the parents know that this school is for children who want to learn and want to go toschool. I value and support parents who thing and behave like we do. We decided on a privateschool because we were unable to break the rigidity and stereotypes in a Slovak school. Weassumed that in a private school there would be the possibility of instituting learning in theRoma language. Over the last three school years more than 50 Roma kids have finished theirleaving exams. The majority of them now study at universities or are taking part in aprofessional education. Naturally I can’t ask of the Roma that all kids go to secondary school.But those who have the prerequisites should have circumstances created that allow them towork towards graduation and then study at university. If more graduate, if at least 30 percentof the total number of Roma graduate, then again I say, that such people will be able toinfluence public policy and can start making positive changes in society. If I should now speakabout whom should be helped, then obviously, only those who will return that which wasinvested into them. Everything cannot always be returned, but simply there must be some sortof return obligation. The moment there is no longer a return obligation, then perhapssomething is not right and at that point I’m finished with a person who expresses interest in theinvestment but when he gets something is then satisfied and doesn’t himself get involved. I’vestopped helping such people. The vicious circle needs to be broken. We support only those whowant to actively change themselves, their surroundings, community and society.

In Slovakia there are a number of schools like yours, most of them of a private character.Do you think that this is enough? Is this the right path or only a necessity? How do theseschools mutually cooperate?

It is primarily a necessary path, because if the state became aware of some connections, itwould act. But it doesn’t act; in fact it generates poor quality. To the extent that a privateschool has a philosophy like ours, then decidedly it would have a chance to move thingsforward. When the Roma talked among themselves about which path to take in education, wedecided on private schools. Our school originated as the first; the primary school in Kremnicawas the second; the private pedagogical and social academy third. A fourth is being preparedin Ke%marok... In Ko!ice we also have a private primary school. All of the directors of thementioned schools cooperate closely. They cooperated also with projects aimed atstandardisation; they wanted to inspire other Roma so that at least one such school will beestablished in every district town. I’m convinced that they will also be established. Whethersuch feedback will be in 4, 5 or 10 years, I don’t know, because time passes while a persongraduates and searches around. But not all of our graduates have gone immediately touniversity. Some stayed at home for a year or two in order to find the strength and courage andmany of them decided to study later. It is very important that they understand what is forthem essential and what society today demands. It is very important that these educated Romaare able to argue and speak wisely, in order to convince others. So that the majority can beginto perceive them as equal partners working on common matters.

Why?

Because the Roma have never allowed such a situation to be discussed among themselves, sothat opinions are crystallised, so that the Roma can show respect to those representatives whogive them a good name and thus become aware of how to build their own elite. If I speak aboutthe elite, then I’m speaking about people who represent spiritual values. People who have

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the elite, then I’m speaking about people who represent spiritual values. People who havetheir own opinion, who know how to give help, are the people who change life for the better.These are the elite. What is a nation without its spiritual elite? Empty. And the Roma areempty because they are unable to appreciate values and don’t set priorities in life which wouldmove them forward. If a Rom discovers such things, they feel the need to remove him, belittlehim, discredit him.

A question about horizontal hierarchies or a statement?

Is it an accident that people who create horizons are the same ones who take part in thesehorizons? I’ll describe an experience: We were in America and we went through a presentation.Two workers from the Slovak government office presented with great pathos the governmentstrategy to help the Roma community. From their mouths sounded a lot of praise fordemocratic processes in the SlovakRepublic, also in relation to the Roma. I sat between themand I was unnerved by this. I had to tell them that they were not telling the truth. Thissurprised them very much because they felt that I would be loyal to the government. I askedthem directly at these meeting how much money they had earmarked for individual ministriesfor the approved government strategy. This was humiliating for them because this was at apublic forum. So you can imagine how they behaved towards me. They spread the word thatKoptová only knows how to criticise. For me this was all about the truth and nothing else. Ihave to tell the truth, whether I like it or not or whether it affects me or not. This means thatif I’m going to declare and act justly, then I can’t say, for example, that I’ll write on the RN'masthead that Romano nevo "il was founded by Dana #ilanová. This is only a partial truth, notthe whole truth. But a partial truth is sometimes worse than a lie.

Do you have the feeling that your efforts and work have had an effect on you, the societyor the Roma?

You usually don’t see these effects immediately. I don’t know how and how much my work,ideas and activities have influenced other people. I can’t judge this. The fact that projects andprogrammes still exist which I was near and helped start tells me that they had meaning. Idon’t know if they had the effects that I wanted. You can’t, however, mistrust people forunwillingness or lack of interest, because we all have our limits. Some react quickly, otherslater; some will never understand.

You once ran for president of the SlovakRepublic...

This idea was not mine. Some friends in Bratislava approached me. They planned the pressconference, insisted on me making a statement. After arriving home I had feelings of doubt andof a great responsibility. When I withdrew my candidacy, colleagues and friends reproached meand said that I had lost my nerve... It wasn’t that. We were all aware that I didn’t have achance, but it was a legitimate opportunity to talk with people who will probably influenceevents in our republic. I withdrew because of my family and also the fact that my boys werenot prepared for an election campaign. I was also aware that I don’t have to handlepsychologically and health-wise the events surrounding me. Not professionally, because thiswas immediately after I’d left parliament. I had a lot of things to study. I was certainly more ofan expert and more qualified to make arguments than, for example, Mrs. Vá!áryová. And Iknew how to oppose Mr. Schuster. I knew his political past... If you tell the truth and you are inconflict with a politician who is not just, however democratic he is, you have to oppose himand you don’t know where you fit in. Society is not yet prepared for people who thinkindependently. Such people are discovered only for small moments. All sorts of discussionsabout the Roma take place, but the disputants always rotate around and don’t resolve theimportant, primary things. They name only the consequences and at critical moments failbecause social conflict is resolved with repression. It was possible in a campaign to talk aboutall of this.

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How with the passage of time do you evaluate and perceive the work of the late JánKompu$?

I can’t judge thoroughly because I wasn’t around during many of his decisions. In the beginninghe was a simple boy who felt outrage and wanted to fight against injustice. Eventually, I wasthere during his first court battle. His and a number of other Roma boys were dismissed fromtheir jobs. I wrote some papers and letters to him, so I know that this was a very sensitivesubject for him. He said that he will fight for the truth even though he couldn’t win. This ishow it was at the beginning. Later, when he got into higher political circles, he perhaps had tomake some compromises. I’m sorry that he left and in such a way. I think that the Roma,precisely because he was so simple, straightforward and frank, accepted him because he spoketo them from the soul. But in terms of whether he initiated quality changes in social processes,then this was only a little. People want to be mystified, however; they want to have somehope. I think that the settlements really needed such a representative. If he had remainedindependent, pure and frank, then the glorification would be fully, fully justified. When themajority political parties understood that the Roma can be manipulated, I conjecture that healso got involved in such manipulation. Even though he brought benefits to some parts of theRoma community, not a majority, not all, but some, from which they prospered not onlyspiritually, but also physically. It’s not possible to talk about Roma politicians in the propersense of the word. It is very erroneous and naïve to think that a Roma should speak only aboutRoma problems. This is that reticence and spiritual segregation. Why shouldn’t the Roma talkabout globalisation and environmental problems, about social problems? Why not? But theRoma don’t get involved in society-wide themes precisely because the media don’t find them,or don’t want to find them, as if the Roma didn’t have the ability to express themselvesregarding public processes. And I think that Slovak political parties perceived them thus andalso the working of Janko Kompu!.

text created as part of project From Travelers to a Nation supported by Embassy of the Federal

Republic of Germany

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Koptová: Help for the Roma must come with return obligations

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