1901.

VICTORIA.

ROYAL CO~IMISSION ON TECIINICAL EDUCATION.

MINUTESQ OF EVIDENOE

ON

TEOHNIOAL EDUOATION.

PRESENTED TO BOTH HOUSES OF PARUAMENT BY HIS EXCELLENCY'S COMMAND.

1)11 autfiorily: ~ nOBT. 8. B&L.'-, GOVElml1ENT l'RiNTlilll, MELDOt1BN&

No. 36.-:-[128. 9d.].,....5703.

\

FS.

310,' \\'3 6'1.~ '-t-~ '0\.'<:-.

APPROXIMATE , COST OF PAPER.

.. ~

£ s. d.

5:;3 0 0

IND]~X TO PLACES A ND INSTITUTIONS VISITEDo

Adelaide School of }'Hnes, B.A. Adelaide University, S.A. Bairnsdale School of Mines Ballarat School of Mines .: .. Bathurst Experimental Farm, N.S.W. Bendigo School of Mines Brisbane Technical College, Q. Brunswick Potteries Burnley Horticultural School Castlemaine School of Mines Daylesford School of Mines Dookic Agricultural College Fort-street School, Sydney, N.S. ,Yo Gatton Agricultural College, Q. ... Geelong Gordon Technical College Hawkesbury Agricnltnral College, N.S. W. Kyneton School of Mines lHaryborough School of Mines Melbourne College of Pharmacy ... Melbourne University ... Melbourne ,Vorking Men's College Mildum Newcastle Technical College, N.S.'\V. Roseworthy Agricultural College, S.A. Rutherglen Viticultural College ... Sale School of Mines St. Arnaud School of Mines Stawell School of Mines Sydney University, N.S.W. Wagga Experimentn.l Farm, N.S.W.

Page

317 339,345

469 374 172 296

133 ... 390

206 413 403 179 169 148 2S0 160 427 420 52()

361 240,536

399 150 325

252 460 417 553 Hi5 175

The Library, P • Art/amont of Vicforl

· .

ROYAL COMMISSION ON TECHNICAL.,EDDCATION.

INDEX TO WITNESSES EXAlVIINim ON VARIOUS BRANCHES OF TECHNICAL EDUCATION BETWEEN 30m JUNE, 1899, AND 24TH MAY, 1901.

Abbott, Richart! H. S., member of conncil, School of Mines, Bendigo Abraham, William, inspecor of mines, Bendigo ... Adams, Ormsby G., lecturer, School of Mines, Stawell Allard, James, potter, Brunswick .•.. ... Anderson, Andrew, president, School of Mines, Ballamt Anderson, Andrew E., instructor, School of Mines, Maryborollgh Anderson, J. '1.'. Noble, engineer, Melllourne Anneal', Harold D., architect, Melbourne ... .. Argyle, Reginald 1., M.L.A., member of council, School of Minos, Kyueton Armstrong, Henry J., memllcr of council, School of Mines, Kynetoll Arnot, Arthur J., city electrical engineer, Melbourne

Bagge, James, Secretary for Education, Victoria... ... ... . .. Banks, Elizabeth L., kindergarten teacher, v'ort·street School, Sydney, N.S.'V. Bartlett, James C., head teacher, State School, Armadalc... ... . .. Bath, James, Secretary to ·Minister of ]~ducation and Agriculture, Adelaide, S.A. Bechervaise. Herbert P., assista,nt teacher, StJte School, Armadale... ... Beckwith, William, inspector of polioe, Melbourne '" Bell, Michael D., mining manager, Lauriston ... Blackett, Cuthbert R., Government Analyst, Mclhournc... ... . .. l3la,nch, George E., M.A., principal, Church of England Gramll1<Lr School, Melbournc B()wie, John, c3,billet·maker, Melbournc

8,

Boyd, Hugh, M.D., president, School of Mines, Bendigo .. ' ... .., ... Bragg, William H., M.A., prof~s.?oL·. Of mathematics and physics, Adelaide University ... Bra.ndt, Paulus J., Pt1strycooks SooLe"y, Melhourne .. ... ... . .. Brearley,.Frederick J., instrudor mal1lLal trainill$' Uni\'ersity High School Brockett, John, 'trt instructor, Sehoal of Mines, Kyneton... . •• Brodribb, Thomas, ex-Secretary for Education, Victoria Brough, James, potter, Brunswick'" ... . .. Brown, Charles, coachbuilder, Kyneton Burgess, Herbert, leather manufacturer, Ha.wthorn

Cameron, Alexander M., director, School of Mines, Castlcmaine Cameron, Samuel S., M.R.C.V.S., ;;eteriuary inspector, Public Health Department Campbell, Frederick A., ¥.C.E., director, 'Working Men's Cullege, Melbollrne Carew-Smyth, P0l1sonby M:, inspector of drawing, State Schools Carter, George II., head teacher, State School, Brlghtoll ... Carter, Helll'y W., State School teacher, Maryborough Castella, Palll D., member of Board of Viticulture Chaffey, 'Villiam B., horticulturist, Mildura .. , ... Challen, Matthew B., director, School of Mines, Daylesforcl ... Ch,~ter, Richard B., B.A., lecturcr, School of Mincs, Stawell Chatfield, Cilarles, mining manager, Kyneton ... ... ... Cherry, Thomas, M.D., M.S., lecturer in pathology, Melboume University Church, Edwin 'r., College of Pharma.ey, Melboul'lle ... Clark, Donald, B.C.1<J., director, School of Mines, Baim~dale Clutten, H. B., mOlllllnentl.l mason, Melbourne .. Cohen, Charles, member of council, School of Mines, B311digo Conlon, Au~ustus, Government dairy. expert, Hob:trt, TItS. ... Coverdale, James, member of council, School of Mines, Sale Craike, Charles, member of Board of Viticulture ... Crerar, Thomas, member of couucil, School of Mines, Stawell Crisp, 'rhomas, member of conncil, School of 'Mines, Bairnsda.le Crowe, Robert, dairy expert, Department of Agriculture, Melbourne

257,

IHJ, llO,

Page

290 524 559 391 3i4 426 560 526

249, 43'2 429 530

265, 569 171

83 332 104 357 433

520, 523 549 478 296 339

445, 448 123 429

4:~ 396, 399

43l 482

415 224, 229 240, 5:~6 498, 499

76 420 257 402 410 560 433

17, 260 521

47O, 511 574 flO6 244

460, 468 352 555 4i:~ 2i6

Dalby, John, B.A., instructor ill physics and mathematics, School of Mines, Adelaide, S. A. Danks, John, brassfolluder, Melbourne... ... .... ... ... Davey; Edgar R., M.A., LL.B., assistant teacher, Stltte School, South Yarra ...

324 571

David, T. iV. B., professor, Sydney University Davis, Johu B., potter, Bnmswicl,... ... ... ... ... ... Dawbarll, Gilbert J., RSc., professor of engincering, School of Mines, Ballarat Dawson, Benjamin S., mcmber of conneil, School of Mines, Stawell ... Dennant, John, inspector of technical schools, Victoria ... ... Densham, iVilIiam, president, Victorian Soc,iety of Accountants and Auditors Derham, Frederick T., chairman, Council of Agricultural Education .. . Douglas, iVilliam P., settler, Mildura ... ... ... .. . Dritlield, Lancelot G., liquidator of Chaffey Bros. (Mildura), Melbonrne Drummond, Peter, head teacher, N01>th Melbourne State School : .. Duhois, Raymond, RSc., princip:..l, Viticultural College, Rutherglen ... Dunnioliff, Alfred A., numager, Jehthurst Experimental" Farm, N.S. W •. Dupree, George, secretary of executive, Tanners' and Curriers' Society

.DUl'ant, Edwin, fancy. leather dresser, Melboul'lle Dwyer, Ath:l.nn.sius, T., secretary, Ac;oollnta.nts' and Clerks' Ass:Jciation, Melbourne

Eddy, Frederick C., M.A., inspector of schools, Melbourne... .. . Ed!!erton. Charle.~, printer, Melhourne ... ... ... .. . Bsaaile, Thomas,.instrueto.r in metallurgy, School of Mines, A.1elaide, S.A. ... . .. Evaus, Heher D.,,JlOll. sec" Association for the .Promotion of Technical Education, Melbourne Ew(trt, David, chief inspector of schools, Brisbane ... ... • •• Ewe, Frederick ,"V., representati ve, Tailors' 'l'radc Society, 1\'Ie11)Oul"ne

90 155 395 384 553

·2i2 488 187 407 435 90

252 172 448 449 485

107 566 323 578 140 446

vi

INDEX TO WITNESSES, ETc.-continued.

Feclerli, G.B., instructor in dtiellltll1'c, Doolde ... '" Ferry, 'Villialll, potter, Brunswick ... ..• . .. };'itzr?y, Ferdinand 'r., prcsident, HorticuHuro.l Socioty, Mildnr .. Flennng, ,John \V., Mayor of Brunswick ... ]<~orsaiLh,:rholl1as"deputy l'egis~r"l', Sch~ol of Mines, Adelaide, S.A. l< rench, Charles,. Government entomologist, ylelbcil1rllc ....

Gadd, Samuel 0., cumtor, Public Garden~, Bcncliao 9!bney, Fmnk, seel'etal'Y, Victoriml Coaeinnakcrsf'Society ... . GllI, HmTy P., uirector for Technical Art in South Australia .. . Glover, Maude K V., ii.rt tetteliel'; S~hool of .Min(j3, Dnylesfor(J Gorlden, Valll'erS, secret1,ry, .!!edcral Institute of Aeuount.ants ... {~~ldsteill,} .. R. Y;, hOllol'l'!'y supe:inton.lellt, L:lbo~lr Colony, Leong'tWa Gltt8by, Wilham C., ,LP., l<.L.S., Jout'lmhst, AdelaHlc, S.A, ... .. . (Jremmway, Thollms.J., mining numagcr, 1l1'0;{Qll Hill, N.S. \Y. .. . Gregory, Jolin W., D.Sc., prof<.:ssar of gc?logy, Mclholll'lIC Ulli\,ci'sity

'Hake, ,qedl N., inspectol' of explosivcs, l\Iclhoul'lle .. , ... Hall, L\ndsay Bermml, director, Nationn.l O"UOl'Y, l\'1elbournc Hanly, Thomas, member of council, Hoseworthy Collc"e S.A. Hn.rkllcss, '1'. Y., boot manufactnrer, l\ielbourno ... '" ... Harris, CI1(1rles, ex-presidcnt, Tmdes' RaU Council, Melbolll1le ... Harrison, Joseph \y" memher of council, School of Mincs, Or1stlc'maine Hr\rt, Alexandel' J., head teacher, State School, South llrllnswiok ... Hart, Thomas S., lecturer on geology, Sehool' of Mines, lla;llarl'lt Ht:i'ivke, George, member of conn~il, ScllOOI of l'v1ille~, BeH,figo Hayden, Frederick, head teachel" St11tc School, Yarra Park ... HeilClerson, Ailketell M., "rchiteet, l\fcllJournc ... Henderson, Jmnes K., spring manufaetnrer, Melbourne Heashilwood, James, settler, llfildura ... ... Hill, Henry, mining speculator, I{Ylleton Hillier, Joseph, member oe Agricultural Society, She])parton ... Hituhc(jck, George M., president, Gordon Technical College, GOc!OIig' ... Holdsworth, Tholll"S, ca],inet-nH1.kcr, M.elholll'lle... ... HojJand, James, M.A., senior inspector of schools; l\>lelh()lirne' Hollings, J. A., lecturer, Technical College, Newcastle, N.S. W. Howitt. Alfred \V., member of Uni\·ersity Council, Melbourne Hoyle, Thomas, instructor in engine-driving, 80J1001 of 'Mines, Kyrietoll Hoyle, Willimn, memher of council, School of Mines, KynetQn i ..

Hughes, Swllmel, 13.80., registrm', School of Minos, Adch1ide, S ./>;,. Hulme, Jos'cph, assist<lllt ten,elier, State School, Yic[oria Park

Jl1drsOll, Alfred H., electrician, Melbourne ... Jacksoll, Jol~n \Y., tanner, Hairusda;lc .... .. Jeffrey,. George, \Vo:,l instruetor, School of Mines, Adelaid,e, S.A. Jolmstol1. J"mes, patter, BrunswiCK ... ... ... Jonos, W. K, Technical College, Newcastle, N.S.W. Jones, \Villiam '1'., lllonnment"lllia.son, Kyucton ...

...

... '

i,,",;

•.. Kcndall,Wiliiam T., M.l::'.C.V.S., ycterina(y surgeon, Melbournc' Keruot, \Vilhid N., lecturer, \Vol'kiugMen's Oo\loge,)i1elbourne •..•. !Comot. 'Villh,m 0.; M. A., professor of cnginccrill", Melboui-nc UIiivel'sit'y Ken, William R. MeO., lH~ws]ft'tpcr proprietor, KYlleton ''', ... King, George fL, secretary niHI director, Gordon Technical Oollege, ~~eclollg KirlJy, 2\lice A., teacher of cODkcry, Tcehllical College, Newcastle, N.fl. W. KuighL, .Toseph, fruit expert, Department of Agriculture, Melbolll'lle .. , .... Knox, William. iI'LL.O., President Chamber of Minos, Victoria ... KriechauJr, .~'. E. ll. \V., acting clmirmuu of conncil, go~eworthy College, S. A.

L:1. Gcrehe, ..fohn I.e 11'1., director [tnd registmr, Hehool' of Mines, St; Al'nau(l L:mg, James, orclmrdist, H"reOlll·t .... ... ... LCI'er, J Ohll ,J. T., horticulturist, M ildum ... Levien, llaroltl, horticiliturist, Milunm Little, J"ohu, Mchitect, Melholll'lle " Lil'erilidge, Archilnld, profes30l' of geology and lllinemlogy, Sydney University Logall, James, .J.l'., memher of contlcil, School of Mines, Maryliorough ... Lmyrie, 'Yilli[tm, principal', Rosewortby College, S·.A. . .. Llitfnnnn, Carl B., principal, School of Horticulture, Bumley ••• Lyle, Thomas R'., M.A., pl'Ofessor of natural philosophy, Melboni'ilo University

Macdonald, \Vi1liD,lll, ~I. A., registrar, School of' Nlinee, Ba.irnsualc· .. , MwcNaughton, Angns, sceretftry, Dairymen's Associati.on of Victoria MahoH, J'Ohll, principal, Agrienltul'a;l College, Gatton, Queenshtmr Mr~tsdeli, John H., chief architect, Public Works Department, Melbourn'c lIu,rtcll, Frederick J., dit'c'etor, School of Mines, B!l.llamt... . .. 1~urti[l, D,wid, Seeretary for Agricultlll'c and Pilblic 'Vorks', MelJ)onrne' Masson, David 0., "-LA., D.flc., professor of ehemistry, Melbourne Nllil,ers'ity. Mci,ttbew, In,mes; J.P., eonlillis~ioner, Irrigation Trust, Mildnra' ... ... Maxwell, James n" Slll'\'eyor, Tylden .. : .Mcrrin, Arthur H.; lecturer in mining, Melbourne Uni,'ersity Middleton, B.ichar(l G., treasnrer, School of Minos, 13a.llarat ... Mitchell, John, lecturer, 'l'echnicil.l College, Newcastle, N.S·.\V. Mitchell, Williaill, professor of philosophy, Adelaide Ullil'ersity ;,\J.olinenx, Albert, genel'il.l secretary, Agricultural Bureau, AdeL..ide, S.A. MOImlian, Charlotte H. S., assistrmt'teachel', State School, :Fitzroy ... MOllkhouse. 'l'homas 8., art inspector, Tccllllicl11 Schools, Victorin.· Morrison, Alex;tnder, LL.D., pl'illcipal, Scotch College, :iV[elhollrne ... MlllTl1Y, Reginald A. F., J!'.G.S., lllinilig expcrt, Molbo\ll'ue ... ... McAlpine, Daniel, lecturer on botany, Bnruley Horticnltural Gardens MCCOOlicl, D<wid R , M.A., Technical College, Brisll!1ne MoCormiek, ;Peter, instrnctor, \Vorking Men's College, Melhourne McDon:Wl, :Finlu:y, agriclillurist, Kynetoll ... ... .., McDougall, Dlilicitll, dirc::tor, School of Miues, Maryborougb -

....

~~' .. '

.... ' ~ ,','

~ . .-

"",,,'

.•...

....

., ...

... ~

...

... i."

....

.....

'M j •••

,.,

... ~ •..

P£L]e

186 394 404 390 323 223

210 459 348 411 487 350 33·1 343 310'

529 49·~ 330 :Ji6; 457

·413,4H).' 40

385' 310 93

505 575 407 432

iH' 216 280 519

102; 570 ... ]'51

361 430 431 319'

87-

,'." 495 4i4 323' 398: 150 4034'

242 541

285, 534, 577 434' 282 150 229 4:4'1 330'

418· 234

400; 40t .... 406 .... 517-

155 i •• 423

325 .. .. 206'

4:50:

468 250 148 501 386'

193', 201,,4037-312 405 .... 435

3]:7, 496, 498 379 l51 345 3::11 HH 489 543 . .. ilO7 236 133

122,

423

V11

INDEX TO WITNESSES, ETc.-continued.

McKeown, George M., manager, \Vagga Experimental Farm, N.S"W. . .. McLaren, Samuel G., M.A., principal, Presbyterian Ladies' College, Melbourne McLaughlin, William, veterinary surgeon, Melbourne McLean, Peter, Under-Secretary for Agriculture, Brisbane... -.. McI.Jeod, Donald, M.P., m.ember of conncil, School of Mines, Daylcsford

Nicol, Constance C. N., rclieving teacher, Education Department, Nightingale, John, J.P., member of council, School of Mines, Daylesford Nolan, Luke, potter, Brunswick.. ... ... ... ".

Palmer, Thomas, M. A., principal, 'W csley College, :M.clbourne Paul, Frederick, science director, School of Mines, Sale .. Pearson, Alfred N., cbemist, Department of Lands and Agriculture Peck, Arthur, architect, Melbourne Penney, John B., grain and wool (lealer, St. Arnaud Pentland, George, Chief Inspector of Stock, Melbourne Peppin, Frederick, membcr of council, Royal Agricultural Society Perkins, Arthur J., lecturer on viticulturc, Roseworthy College, ::i.A. Pcstell,' James H., L RC.S., prcsitlent, School of Mines, Kyneton Pickering, Frederick W., president, shire of M.ildura ... Pinnock, Robert D., M.])., vicc-prcsident, School of Mines, Ballarat Pitt, Philip, secretary, Agricultural College, G1Ltton, Queensland ... Pittman, l!:dward F., Government Gcologist, Mines Department, Sydncy Plant; \Villiam M., fruit-grower, Mildura Pockett, Thomas W., curator, Malvern Public Gardens Preston, Robert, treasurer, Operative Bakers' Society Proudfoot, George, factory manager, Mildnra Pye, Hugh, principal, Dookie Agricultural Collcge

Reding, Nathaniel, vice-president, United Furniture Trades' Society Reed, Joseph M., Surveyor-General, Melbourne... ... Reid, John, Mayor of Daylesford Rennick, Francis H., M.A., secretary, Victorian State School Teachers' Union Rennie, Edward R .. , M.A., D.Sc., professor of chemistry, Adelaide University Rix, Henry F_, B.A., inspector of schools ... - ... ... .., ". Robbins, William, plasterer, Kyneton Robinson, George, principal, East Melbourne Grammar School Robinson, ·\\'illiam, engineer, Maryborough -Rogers, Richard E. E., member of council, School of ::'t1ines, Adelaide Rule, Thomas, head teacher, State School, Terang ... Runting, \Villiam J., president, Federallnstillte of Accountants Ryan, Martin J., M.D., member of conncil, School of Mines, Kyneton

Salwcy; Alfred, chief clerk, Department of A!!1'iculture, Sydney Sarvaas, .T ohan, lectnrer in mining, School oC.Mimis, Bendigo Schlapp, Herman, mining ongineer, Melbourne Seehusen, \Valter, artist, School of Mines, Bairnsdale Selman, Codrington, instructor, School of Mines, Adclaide, S. A. Semmens, Edmund, shire secretary, Mildura Shillinglaw, Harry W., secretary, College of Pharmacy, Melbourne Smith, A. Mica, B.Sc., professor of chemistry, School of Mines, Ballarat Smith, Herbert II.,' art director, School of Mincs, Sale Solly, Robert, representative, Bootmakcrs' Union _ .. Steiner, Charlcs Vi'., art teacher, School of Mincs, Castiemuinc Steiner, Maurice, wine merchant, Melbourne Stephens, Francis B., (lirector, School of Mines, Stawell Stepto, John J., registmr, School of Mines, Daylesford Stewart, Alexander, Inspector-Geneml. of Schools, Victoria Storey, Annie Fawcett, lecturer in cookery, State schools, Victori1\ Stott, Sydney, principal, Business College, Melbourne Summons, Samuel, M.A., inspector of schools ... Sweet, George, F.G.S., potter, Brunswick ". SwincUey, Samuel J., inspector of schools ".

Tatc, Frank, M.A., principal, Training College, Melbourne Telford, Henry J., saddler, Kyneton ... ... Thomson, George A., registrar, School of Mines, Bendigo Thomson, Harvey P., chairman, Irrigation Trust, Mildura Thomson, Robert 0., engineer, Melbourne ... Thomson, Thomas W., settier, Mildura...... ... Thwaites, \Villiam, M.A., C.K, member of council of University, Melbourne Tipping, James, president of council, School of Mines, Bairnsdale ... Travis, James, Secretary for Mines, Melbourne Tudor, Frank, president, Trades Hall Council .... .. Turner, John \V., principal, Fort-street Tra.ining C:ollege, Sydney, N.S. W.

Valder, George, principal, Hawkesbury Agricultura.l College, N.S"W.

\Vales, Alexander, contractor, Brunswick ". ... ... \Valker, Daniel, lecturer on chemistry, School of Mines, Ballarat \Valker, Henry, president, Farriers' Association, Melbourne ... \Veeding, Joseph H., representative, Operative Bakers' Society \Veekes, Edith E., assistant teacher, State School, Terang ... \Vestwood, 'William, lecturer, \Vorking Men's College, Melbourne \Vheeler, Dr. Abraham, member of commit,toe, Fitzroy Art School ... \Vhelen, Arthur, S. A., representa,tive, Accountants and Clerks' Association \Vhite, Daniel, carriage-builder, Melbourne ... ..' ... Whitham, Charles L., member of Board of Ins~ectors of Schools, Adelaide Wightman, Richard \V., president, Dairymens Association of Victoria Wise, George H., member of council, School of Mines, SiLle... . .. 'Woodward, Arthur T., art instrnctor, School of Mines, Bendigo 'Wynne, Walter P., member of council, School of Mines, Ballarll.t

, ...

Pago

175 550 360 136 531

116 408

393, 397

547 46,'; 218 507

417, 420 22(l 212 330 427 406 377 14.9 157 4.08 235 447 403 17U

475 5'29 409

81 338

66 434

98 422

317,324 105 488

428,431

151 307 439 473 324

399, 404 521 381 467 458 416 355 fi55 411

1, 12, 125 llH 51"

34, G09 480

19,25

49, [i9, 551 435

300, 311 3UU 564 403 364 469 492 454 169

160

392 3Sfj 359

443, 446 115 54:2 503

486, 488 5n 382 248 464 308 370

MINUTES OF EVID NOE. TAKEN BEFORE ROYAL COMMISSION ON TECHNICAL EDUCATION.

FRIDAY, 30TH iUNE,o 1899 ..

Members present:

THEODORE Fun;:, Esq., M.P., in the Chair;

.1. G. Barrett, Esq., H. C. Jenkins, Esq., C. R. Long, Esq., M.A.,

J. H. MacFarland, Esq., LL.D., F. W. Poohmm, Esq., J.P., H. W. Potts, Esq., J.P., F.C.S.

Alexander Stewart., sworn and examined. 1. By tlbe Chai1·man.-What fire you 1.....:.Illspector-General of Schools in Victoria. 2. Are YOll the profession:tl head of the Department of Education ?-I have held that position for

abont two years; before tlmt I was Acting Inspector-Geneml. I served three years as a pupil teacher. I was about sixteen years ns a teacher, head of a Training School Jor three years, and some years flS

inspector in the field. Then I was called to the office :t8 examiner, and I have becn in the office for some, twelve years, first as examiner and 1I0was Inspector-General. I was l1 teacher up to 1878. I was then in chargc of a 1st class school known as a Training School.

,3. Since occupying your presen,t position, have YOll trayelled in the other colonies in connexion with the education system ?-I was sent to New South Wldes in connexion with tho yexed qnestion of scriptnre instruction. That caine as part of my duty, and I have been in South Australia in cOllnoxion with the l'c-opening of our Training College, and also !flaking some inquiries with regard to agriculture.

• 4. Pmctically, what is the method whereby you rcview l,he position, so far as ed~l.cation is concerned, of your Department, with a yiew of seeing Ivhether it wants r~form or altel'ation. What is the general departmcntal attitnde as to that; is there any systcm of examining your work and testing whether it is deficient or progressive ?- Of course we are constantly supplied with the latest reports of work throughout the world.

5. Whose business is it to read them 1-I read some of them alld the Secretary, I suppose, reads . some. There is 110 special officer set apart to rcad through those reports. From conversation we are always in touch with the gentlemen who are travelling 011 cducational matters. One of the first places they come to is the Educntion Office, and if 1;hey come to learn anything they never go away without my endeavourillg to gel the latest information froUl them, which they are very willing to give.

6. Do you t,hink there is any sufficiently systematic attempt on the part of the Department to kecp in toueh with educational improvements ?-We know in effect what is being done; to know from reading is one thing; to know it practically is a different thing.

7. Is there a systematic procedure whereby yourself and the gentlemen under you discuss the questions of reform and alteration with a view of keeping yonr system np to date ?-'- We had an inspectors' conference at the beginning of this year.

8. Is that an annual ILflair ?-Previously it was annual, but it was allowed to drop, I think, for some time; then it was revived last year.

9. 'rbere had been an annual conference 1-1 as, I cannot say for hoW' long it Wl1S suspended. to. Certain parliamentary criticism was uttered by Mr. Deakin; Mr. Cook, an(l others last yeur,

is that bronght under yoUI' notice; do yon acqnaint yourself with it for the purpose of seeing whether it is justified ?-Evel'y criticism that appears in the public press Oll edncationalmatters I mysel£ look into.

11. What was the reason for the calling of the last conference in .January?-It was led up to in this way: In our la~t aIlnual report yon will notice there are two paragraphs, on agriculture, mining, and cookery, at page 29 .. · I had beon thinking over tl~ose subjects. This report is publisllCd in September, but it is prepared some time before that. YOll can see from that that those qnestions about mining, and agriculture, and cookery, and doing something :with reganl to bringing them into the scope of our educational systeIll, were nnder consideration.

12 . .y OIl SlI bscquently called the conference?-Yes. This conference was called some time in December. We <liscussed t:he programme' ananged, alld among otlle!' things Regulation No.1 dealing with the comse of free instruction. That was the prineipal snbject of di.scussion. 'Ve went through tbat regulation, subject by snbject, and we he anI', t,oo, showing thnt we were keepinl; ill tOllch with things, that the Irish COlllmission had dnring the yeur be.en considering this qnestion that wc were then considering and we cabled home for that report, and real! it, and digested it.

13. When the inspectors' annnal reports come in they are fully considered ?-Yes, I read them. 14. Is ,there any system adopted as to giving efl'ect, to their recommendations ?-Those recommenda­

tions that are considered pract,icablc and desirable arc placed before the Minister and adopted. J 5. I ullder~talld that during the la~t nve years the illspectors' reports, thongh you may have read

them, havc not been formally considered by the conference ?-l eanIlot speak a~ to the conference, I eannot say when the last conference wus held.

16. Wonlll not t.he better conrae be to consider all those inspectors'reports systemal.ically when they afe in, and then see which of the recommendations should be given effect to. If that course were follo~\'ed, wouM it not keep the Dcpartmcnt in a better state of efficiency and progress ?-At thc present moment 1 hav.o t.he reports now Qf tIle inspectors. W!,) only have reports from half the inspectors each year. We used to have reports from all the inspectors every year, but this change WRS made some years ago,

5703.

·Ajcx8n1el' 30th JUlle,

during the retrcnchment time I think, and llOlV we have only t15e reports from Lalf the inspectors; in other' \\"~nls they send in their reports bien nially. The reports for lnst. ye:tr arc now before me, and those points that appenr to call for nttention, I will hring hsfore the Seeret.nry and the Minister.

17. Is not it Ii Ycn' bad systcm to have report::; biennially; are nor. yearly reports the least frequent that YOIl shonld lHlve (-1 Illl\·e no pClnieular .opinion about t.hat.. The inspectors ill the eount!'y find it 'son~elimes a.cJ.iliicult matt.er to make up a report every yen.!', and PlOy are Yery glad, among their other dnt:ICs, to be relieve,l of t.he duty.

. IS. WOl1ld it be a goo,i policy to relieve tl!em of the tlu t.y of reporting altoget bel' ?-I do not thlllk 80. .

19. Tn going t.hrough the ,last report for 1897, I fiml, following on ~illlilar pa8snges in other inspectors' reporfs fJ'om 1~94 IIp\\,Hrd~, Ihat I.here aro quite a HUlIJber of inspectors who t.ake oee:1sion 10 refor to mechanical teaching, tho defiCiency of the mod.c .of'in.fitnt inst.ruction,1H)(1 matters of that sort. That, secms \'0 have bcen going 011 to sOll\e extent year aft.er y~ar. Is there any means whereby those complaints nre sifted, nnd a system :It.udieu. with a view to the rectification of those eyils ?-It is only within the Illst eighteell months. when there was :t prospect of' bettor times coming, that we Im"e been in a position to lIllllol'lll.ke fresh expenditure. The policy previous to t.hat WIIS retrenchment., and qnestions 1har, involved addilional expenditure were not ent.ertained; t.hen I was' a good deal oc('upied in working ont a system of retl'enehment. .

20. Then practically it would follow f.hnt; the volieyof retl'enehment, has in\'olved intelleetllnl rotrelle!.mellt so far as teaching is cone'erned ?-Vve were not preparcd to take np slIeh questions then; t.hey mp.y have been desimblt·, or they Illlly not have beeTl desimblc.

21. I nIH referring w toaching wh.icets already oj'ganized; practically, retrenchment prevenled Yoll\' gi\'ing effe<:t to the reeolllillem\ations for c'nring the e"il~ refelTed to ?·-~ot if it did not inyohe additional expendi t.ure. ,

- 22. Did yilt! take nny ~teps to see whether t,hose statements as to defectivo teaching werc eorrce!, allli if they were correct did you ,"Ve cannot deltl with these because it. means more money," or did you say-" "Ve u.re rdrenching," ani] let, the thing go? -Take drawing, through str,ess of retrenchmcnt t.he eertifica.ted drawing-masters that we hol.d ,-isiting onr schools were all withdrawn. They ,yere withdrawn simply because of ret.rellcilmeut.. So with Kindergartcn and the special teachers. All matters in ordinary wol'l, tha.!. reqllir(x] improve:llellt and did not opell up fresh fields we mannged.

23. In ulmost e,'el'Y TepOlt the Dppart.mcnt 8aY8-" The ret.renchmcnt hus not. affect.e<l the efficiency of the teaching," and yet whell the teacbing is impnglled the I'eply is-" It. will tnke 11101'e money to improvc t.he ten,ehing." JlI 1893-4 (he r;x pelldi t.ure 0;1 salaries, allowll II ces to teachers, awl·pa.yments hy resnl t~ \YO s £507,589; lor lil94-5 it wns £4ti6,.,)37 ; for 1895-6, £440,000 odd; 1'896-7, £488,000; 1897-8, £4;)7,000; that.is practically £70,000 le53 than in l~93-4 for te,whiug alone, and that is,llft.el' the previolls large rellllclion of over £2UO,OOO in t.he annnal Est,irnates of t.he Dppartment ?-I tllink that is n~oro a matter for t,he ~eeret"ry or the Accol1ntant to denl with, bllt 1 sIIpp05e in that reduction is included the. percentage reductions on tile teacher;;' $:1Iuri08. .

24. Cal] YOll say whether it im'olved a reduction',in t;he Jlnmber of teachers 'a8 a whole, or a reduction in tho 1I11111bel' of s::mior ten,cher.'l, nnl] an incrense in thc Ilnmber of pupil teachers and monitors 7-111 the very large schools, with nn average atlendanee of 600 npwards, it involved a re<lncHon in the nnmber of assistant.g, :1I1d t1 corresponding increase in t.he number of pupil. teachers. There .is also l1notltel' item tllut pl'olmbl.r would explain to some exten1, this reduction; there Wit:; a system inaugurat,ed or the amalga­mation of sello/Jls, which showed for 1897-8, aeeording to the estilllate, a saving of £37,000. We also intl'otincml fL new systcm ill the cOllYeyance of childreu to schools.

, 2;;. Dill yon make any altemtioll in the nnmbel' of yon'r t.e~ehing staff, and, if so, do you still consider it is of snfficient I1ml1erieal stl'engl,h to carry out, the new syst.em as wcll as the old "ystelll?­I think the staff is Ilumerieally somewhat the same n,s hefore, hut t,he quality of the teachers may be said to be not so strong, because P1I1)il teachcl;s arc 811bsti tuted in the hugor schools. There has not been mnch change' ill sehools llll,lcr 500 01' 600, amI there Ilre not many schools with nn average flU entiallce of over GO:). 1 hnve !t ['etum showing that I.here are only 235 sd:lOols with an average attendullce of over 100.

2G. OW ing 1.0 the incrense of pupil tea('hel's, YOIl w~l\11d not consider Ihe teaching a sufficient Oil the whole ?-There are eel'.tain eirellll1stHncesto be considered. These pnpil tellchcl's !Ire ] 5t class pupil leathers, who are cqnal to tllo ordinary teachers. Ifva.cancies ocelli' tlwy will be made 8th nssistoIlts, and t·heir work then wonldhe pmcticnJly the Same:1S it is now.

27. Y 011 ha.ve saitl that the Kindergar1ell system was innugurn.ted some years ngo-wlmthappeneu to it ?-The Kindergartcn system wus ill operation before I had anything to do with it; but I believe it eame to lIlI end when the retrenehment set ill. These' are the rcgulations tlw.t were in force in 1896-[producillrJ the same J-and I do not, know how much further back t hey go; they were kept in, notwith­stallding I.hal. thc special tenchers wcre not, still cmploye:!. '

28. Yon pI nct,ienlly hnil speeiu.1 t.eachers for Kindergarten work for some time previolls ?-Yes. 20. Was Ihe ~Jstelll ever in fnll swing, or \Va,; it merelj:dmt an atlempt was made to start it, amI

it, ",a-s pttrr.iall,v ill operat.ioll wilen rell'cnchment swept it,away ?-Yes, thflt was it. 1 was not carrying it onto I WllS qot. then ill my present position, and I had nothing' to,do with thc working of tbe Kindergarten. 1 was ouly Acting: Inspector-General :trtor lVIr. Tynan's deat,h, nuu. that occurred, I tlJillk, in August, 1896 ; tho systcm lwd been abandoned IH'e\'iousl,Y to !.hnt. .

30. Are yon able to say to wlmt extent it had been ftllop~el]-'-how many teachers had ileel! trallletl, or werc speciltl instructors appoi Ilted ?-N 0 ; there werc sOllie who 'had a knowledge of Kindergarten who, -I belieH'" gave instruction to teachers at, Ballarat llncl Bendigo.

;)1. Can you say, if this system wel'e 1I0W introduced generallY, how mHIl}' really skillcd teachers in' Killdergarten there nre, who understand t.he prillciple of Kindergarten worl<?- Yery few.

H2. ]f the system were intro:luectl, how long \V()IIIa it take to tmin the stair ill Kindergarten work ?-~Ye haye seveml tenehers who taught KiJlllel'garteu, and who, 1 shoul.t say, if we hnd qnalificd orgallizo!)I'., nud instnlCtol's, would not requiro yel')' milch help in the \\"'Y of t,raining; they IlnlierHLant! it pretty well \lOW. • '

3a. ,\Yolllci yon make the t.eaching of the Kindergnrten systcm' It part of the g~neml work of t,he ',I'raining 1 nstitute that YOlt desire to re-establish ?-l would. '

Aiexan<ie.' Stewart; 30th June, 1809.

,'14. When \\'ns the TrainiuO' ColleO'e aballdoned ?-Abont the t,ime of the retrenehment.. '" '" 1 . 1 35. Is the Deport.ment contemplating its rU-8stabli8bment ?-It is. I h:t\'c bcen ta mlg tIC pre-

liminary steps for I'e-opelling the institutioll next ycar if possible. 36. Do yon contemplate t.hat the re-organizillg of the Trailling Jnstitute will have for one of its

objects file·tmining in Kiudergarten work ?-Yes. 37. W1Ht~ steps are being tnkell now to i)ltro~lllce expert trnining ill Kil1llergarten work ?-The

length thl1.t it has gone is my recommemhLlion ill tile eircu\:tl' tlwt yon have got; it has 110t. gone further thnn that; no step has been taken to earry it into effect.

38. You reeommend that onc instrnctor shonld be appointed at, £300 pel' aunum ?-Yes. 39. Have no st3PS nt all heen taken yet to enrry ont t.hat 'recommcnilation ?-We called for nppli­

cnnts for the Kindergarten, but nothing was (lone. We have the applieat,iolls in, but 110 appointment has been made, and nothing has been done towmds mnking the :Ippnintllletlt.

40. Are yon .satisfied that olle person eould orgnnizc and instrnct all the classes necessl1l'Y ?-I thiuk so. '

41. Yon propose to make that, part of thc work of the Training College 7--YeR, 1 have the draft regnlations ill my pocket., nIHl the~' Kindergarten, mllllllul trninillg, and. wch other wbjects a~ the :Ministcr may from time to time direct, to be inclllded in the cOllrse of inst:l'Ilction." In cotlllexion with infant school teaching there werc some things recommended which could not be carried ont at the time for various reasons, but they have not been lost sight of.

42. It would be impossible that good KiIHlergnrten teaching eould be mechanical ?-Not good Kindergnrtell teaching.

43. I understand thnt you hnve provided, or attempted to provide, for a form of Kindergarten work by nn nlterat.ioll ill Regulation No.1 ?-Thnt alteratiOlI must be read in connexion wit.h the regnlations now ill force, but which are not, stl;ictly carriecl Ollt as far as Kindergarten is cOlJeerued. The regulation was previollsly there, but now it is put in in a definite form. ,

44. Although it was previollsly therc in II form that wns !lot definite, it ,niS not. expected to he uuiversally cltrrietl out ?-No; the wordillg of t.he old regnlation was" where prnetieable." Under that, where there was not ll. qualified teacher, or a toaeher able to tnke it up, it would !lot bc reqllired.

45. It was preseribell, bnt pral'ticnlly retrenched out of existcnce, mill liOW it is prcscribed ill a more specific way under the lIew regnlations ? - Yes.

46. NotwithstalJdinO' these regulations YOll are in no better position to hnve it parried ont tlwn von were before The regulations actunl!y prescribe Kindergarten work, and we expect the teachers to m~ke nn attempt at this work with the help that we CHn give them by lecrtlres, nlld by recommending certain text-books that deal pretty exhnnstiveli with tLe suLject; but, of eom'8e, we do not think that is sufficient, . or anything like sufficient, consequently an organizer ami instructor is to be appoi11ted. "Ve want SOIllO

one thoroughly up to the work, who knows the principles that govern the te!tehing. 47. In the absel1(le of such a pen'oll, docs the Department consider it wise or expedient to start thc

system Oil imperfect linos?- "Ye b,1,\'o issucd another ShOTt· circular--we have a very good teacher of Kindergarten M No. 450, Fitzroy, :Nlies Monahan, and a few others.

48. That lady was trained by a teacher imported. by the Depart men t :Mrs. Goulden. What we are doing is t;o' allow ieochers of infa!1 t departments certain leave . to go and see this work as it. is carried on by Mis!; MOllaban or any' other teacher of Kindergarten reeommelllled by I,he inspectors of Melbourne.

49. Lttdies like )!iss )lonahan are praotieally instructors ill that subject ?-Yes. 50. Do get any particular recognition from the Department for thnt ,york ?-Nothing Ims been

done as yet; it is only jnst started. J~ater on the, qnestion of giving these teachers something for their work may be considered.

51. I umlel'staml that the exnmination of all these schools at the end of the yeM will be on the conrse of instrnetion preseribed .?-The first eX!llllinatioll after these regulations are iss ned will not include this particular work; they lllllst have a filII yenr to get lip thewod.;:. As port.ion of /t teacher's salary depends IIpon the result, and he has been working for six months on the old programme, we cnunot examine him 011 the new programme with six months' instruction, so that the teachers will 1I0t be examined on thc lIew programme until the reglllntioll has been in force some twclve months.

52. They me expected to teach it right away a~ fnr as they can ?-Yes. Ga. In so filr as they llo tlevote themselves to complying wiLl! the regulations, they will he with­

drawing t,hemseIYes from the work preyiollsly prescribed; are you not introducing an element of chaos ill eonnexion with the teachers' work as far as the payme1lt. hy results is concernel1. Is t,lm!. sntisfactory, or ha.ve yOIl considered the propriety of waiting to introdnce this Kimlergm·ten system unW it call be done under tile allspices of eJIicient teachers} or at all events nnder the auspices of teacht'rs who haye commenced their training under directors and inst.ruetors; arc you not mnking a jump at it ?-1 do llot think that we ean introduce nuy of these slIbjeets at anything like tho stage that we expect t hem to reach after they have been in opcration for two or three year". We have altered rep .. lations before, and eyery alteration. always menlls some trouble and difficulty.

54. 'Would it not be better to wait until the teachers who are going to take up this work have been properly instructed. and made acquailltecl with the principles of Kindergarten teaching-w<)uld it 1I0t be wiser to wait until you get your Kindergartcn instructors, and then introduce the system as fast, nnd no faster, than you Cnn get tbe f,pttchers instructed ?-This Kindcrgartell wOi'k is ranged as only one of three subjeets comprised under generallessolls, and thongh the teachers may not be experienced in it, still I think that, with what they can gather from the books put into tlleir hands and the instrnction they reeeivc, they will be able to begin. giving t.he children short lessons of from fifteen to twenty minutes. The teachers being intelligent and qualifietl in <.,ther directions, it will not take them very long to be able to put into practice what they havc seen.

,55."Does that mean that you do 110t think they wnnt illstl'Uetion ont,side of books ?-Of COllrse they want inst.rw·tion outsidc of books.

56. Then do you think it would be wise for them to go aheac1 on tlH~ points 011 which they want instruction outside the books without gettillg that instlllction ?-1 thillk it \voilld bc just a:i well to go 011

with it with those teachers who ean avail themselves of the opportunity we ca·n them of seeillg sl1ch teachers as Miss Monahan.

13 Z

...... ,--------------------------------- The Library, Par1iam~nt of Vi~fOrfa

Alcxall(lcl' Stew"rt; 30th June, 1899.

. 57. Your regulations ltJlply to everybody, but they cannot all aVflil t,hemselves, nor are they compelled to a~ltil themselves, of that opportunity; you still think it better, under those ~ircumstances, to go ah.<.:md ?-1 do not think that \ye should be yery long in getting an organizing instructor bere. I think the sooner such IL persoll is here the beuer.

5&,. Would it. not be better to wait u;ntl let the teaeher start, knowiug what he is going to tench ; is thcrc 110 danger of his starting wrongly, and having to llU I eal'll , or does the whole thing not matter very much ?-If {,here is to be any delay in getting the illstrnctors out, I do not think it would be wise to go on wit.h I,eaehers who do not understand it;.

, ,59. You think that instrllctors should be procured as soon liS possible ?-That is my view. . 60. You have also· issued ill the salllC' circular, on page 30, iustructions for hand and eye training, to

include" drawing exercises, the usc of colourell chalks or water-eolonrs, cardboard modclling, and any otlier approved comse, such as wood work, metal work, including wirc work, clay modelling, stra\v plait,ing, basket work, netting, and string wOFk"; am I right in snpposillg that therc is allY teaching t:!tpa,city in the tcaching staff' in relation to this hand and eye training-are there any number of teachers \vllo c 1 n teach wood wOI'k?-\Ve consider harid al}d eye training includes dl'awing exercises, thc use of colon red chalks 01' wlt!er-eoloul's, and Cllnlboard modelling, and we would expect the bulk of the teachers to be ablc to take tbat 1lp.

61. But is it done 1-T11e Cil'CllilLr is only jnst issned. . 62. Is therc the slightest possibility of t,hcse instruct.ions being cl1l'J'ied out by any numbm' of your

teachers at prescnt ?:.......There m~y bc some, "Any other approved course" was intcnded to allow an alternative COl11'se, and there may be some teachers who have had experiencc in wood work; there may be othcl's who know something abont metal 'work and wire w01'l" and this was illscrted to givo such teachers au op'pol'tllnity of snbst.itn1.ing work with which they were familiar for cardboard modelling.

63. That is not what YOlt say here, there is nothing about all alternative; it .says-" Ally other approved coursc/' there is not one word about its beillga substitute for cardboard modelling 7-" Any othcr approved course" means one of those conrses.

64. Drawing exercise is compulsory, thcy call all do that.?-Yes, drawing is taught in every sclwol. 65. You presume that some of the teachers could carry out cardboanl modelling ?-With the help

of this text-book I am satisfied thcy could. : -66. YOIl do not know at all whethcr miyuody can iCI1l'ry ont No . .3 7-1 do not know whether they

could take IIp wood work amI metal w~rk, but they conIc! take np clay modclling, straw plaiting, or basket work.

67. Could they take llP clay modelling pmctically, ill'accon!ance wit.h a,I1Y principle, or merely on thc sa!llc theory as m!lking, mntl pies; has the Department studied that particular art by any of its experts and come to thc conclusion that it could bc readily taught in the 4th, 5th,·aml 6th classes ?.:.....So I am told.

68. Y 011 have read the Irish report? - Yes. o 69. This is based UPOll the Irish report ?-Yes.

70. That report bys great stress upon wood work as the chief occupation in hand alld eye training in England ami Sweden. That, no doubt, is considered aeconlillg 1,0 the model'll education theory the chief method, the most econo~ical and tbe most iIistnlCtive, and the one that you would naturally expect to be gencrally adopt-cd ?-1 do not exp.cct wood work to he adopted; that is Olle reason why the D"partment is recommellliing the appointment of an ol'ganizer and i11struotor in wood work, and bringing ont three instrnctors in wood work. 1Vood -work is tl1.ught in Sout,h Australia, and some metal work also; I h:wc seeu clay modelling, st.raw plaiting, basket work, notting, and string work done there. Some of 0111' teachers have been over there and they know something of t,his work, 1 do not know how many; bnt wood work nnd ibis work you speak of is the very work we do not expect our teA-chers to take up until they are educated for it.

71. But you 11l1ve prescribed i,t in commou with these other subjeets-wonid it not be wellto wai! until Y011 1mye. the c1TIciCllt staff tllLLt yon rcco.l11111end should be got before issuing iustrnctions that cannot 110W be carried ont-,.is anyt.hing to be gained by proceeding on hurried lines without any approach to c1TIeient teaching at all ?--1 think our teachers havc enollgh intelligenne to be able to takc up cardboard mod oiling, 1'01' example, and similar work that is specified hcre tinder ha.nd and eye training. If it were only cnnlboard modelling that we warlled to introduce, I wonld not recommend the expenditure necessary to bring Ollt, lin organizer alld inHtrnctor. .

7'2. Then why prescribe t,be other-would it not be better to wair, before prescrihing other things, u11ti] YOll were ill !L position to see thnt the regnlations were carried 0Ilt'I-1 think our tea,chers are cupnble of teaehing clay modelling and straw plaiting. •

73. Has tbe Department furnished thc schools with npparlltus or m{Lterials for these things yet ?­Not so fl1r.

74. Havc you made allY estimate of the expellse for either Kiudergn~ten material or hand and eye ttaining material, or are yon waiting until yon' gct advice ,from the experts you propose to appoint?­Thorc is a cil'culllr that is now in proof (it has not been approved by. the Minister), providing for certaiu articles that we think necessary for Kindergarten and hand and eye training. On that eircular the Minister will want to know what the ll.i'ticles that we pi'opose to provide will cost.

75. W lIeu he does ask, can you t.ell him? -I think so. We expect that the articles we arc putting down here for Kindergarten and hant! and eye tmining will pl'ob<tbly. cost about £2,000 to begin with.

76. Do you think that YOll yourselves really know what will be required, or will the instructors know better ?-1'here are S9me articles that must be procured, no matter whether the instructors (lome '. ont or not.. ,0

77. Takirl" it as a whole, are you in a posiLion to make an estimate of the whole of the,articles required-do you"'know enough of t.he dehiils of the system ?-We had a previolls sHpply of Kindergarten apparatus; we know \V IJat we provided before, ltnd we know what it will be absolutely necessary to

. provide t.lw scholars with ulH]er this regulation. . 78, Hal'c you any idea what it will cost to provide the benches alld tools for the manual labour ?­

We kllow \\'Ilat the cnrdb .. ard work will cost.. The question is under consideration whether the children t.hcmsciYe'3 should not pay for the cardboard, the same as they pay for their copy-hooks and drawing-books; probably the children will have to pay for the cardboard. As regards clay modelling, there may be some little cost in providing the clay, but not much.

5 Ale" .. ndel· Stewart, 30th June, 1809.

79. What about the tools for the wood work ?-The only reason why wood work is put in is that there may be some teaehers who would prefer to take wood work as an alternative COllrsO 10 some of the other things.

80. Have you formed allY general estimate of tho cost ?-I h:we not formed an estimate of the cost of. intl'Oclnciug wood work.

81. Have yon considered whether expem]il.Ure woultl be necessary to equip certain schools for the wOI'k, apart from material 01' teaching Tim!, is in the mind of I,he Department; but that is so:ne-thing later on-that is a further uevelopmenl, that we have not taken up yet,.

82. 'Would not a prudent [ldminist,ration want to know, within reasonable limits, what e,xpenditnre an improved sysl,em would commit it to ?-VVe are taking llP I,hi::; qnestioll of kindergarten alllllllallLlld instruction for general educational pll1'poses, not with allY specinl rererence to making tIle chlldren leal'll !lny pal'tienlar trades, as far as the primary !lchools nre concerned,

83. YOIl have not made a definite estimate as to t.he expense ? -The est,imate I Il!we made includes clay 'for modelling.

84. At present the educational ,york is hU'gely tested in t\ pmctieal way by the syst,em of payment by results. Has tile Depal·trnent considered whether the illt,roullction of Imlill IIml eyo tmining aloHe will not involve a clepnrtme from that. system; is it in nny wn.y consistent with an ellucat.ionul system on modern lines slleh as you desire to introduce t.hat the present system of payment by resnits sl!onld be mn,intained ? -These subjects nre not the same as the onlina.ry snbjects, sneh ns reatiiu)!,', writing, and .arithmetic; they arec~s~~oo~ , '

85. Then it will not affect the system in one way or the othel' ?-1 should like to have a little time to thiuk OVf)r that.

86. Have you made up your mind as to whether I.his system will illvolve any addition to the school work or the elimination of any of the work at present tanght ?-That snbjeet was discussed at the eonfer­ence, nnd it will be found that the present programme is lightened in BOme direetions. I think myself tllllt this work will be a relief to a certain extent to the childrell. It will be a refreshment, and will have a reaction Oil them, If a boy that will not' giv.e his attention 01' concentrate his thoughts on book work comes to manual work where he is doing some work that he is interested in it may help him with his book work, and the tillle 1.0 be spent on it is only about two hours a week. rVe have lightened the work, and if necessary we wOllld lighten it further.

87. Have you formed any idea as t,o the snfficieney of two hours a week, or the time that it would take to introduce the lland and eye training; into the cbsses ?-1 would be guided, whon we get, the prac­tieal ?Iall out, by his experience, but, spenking from my reading, I should say two hours It week would be snffi cIOn t..

88 .. Ha.s tlte practice been to print till the inspeetors' reports and every part of them ?-The Minister may not think it necessary (·0 publish an inspector's report.. I believe one report was !lot published some. years ago.

89. J s it the practice of the rermanellt officials ill the office to read the reports, an<l to cause eertain recommendations to be eliminated ?-It has been uone.

90. Morc than onec in the lust two years ?-1 think so; I cannot say how often, 91. Has it beel1 done freqnent.ly timing YOlll' experiellce ?-Not frequently. Thel'e may Le pas:oages

in some rcports eliminated, perhaps ill five or six instances. I cnnn9t give the number without looking it up. .

92. What is the ohject of ueuying to Padiament nnd the publie information given by the inspectors. At page 15 of' the report f)r 1896 it While inspeetors have full freedom to express their opinions as to the condition of the scliools character of the work ill their didtrlcts during the year, it. will, of comse, be nnderstood that they, are individually responsible for their opinions." What, other instrnctiOlls are there for limiting their reports wil,hin tlte scope of their p,ducational work; can they 110t sflY any­thing they like about the education 01' the buildings ?-We want to kllow the character of the work in their districts. Supposing they were to speak about something that might illl'oh'c the policy of tltH Government, or might be against the declared policy of the Govefllment; that is not within their province.

93. That is a snpposition. fhve yon snppressed any refleetions on any pm·t of the edneational system, or any criticisms or snggestions for improvement; do yon say that everything t.hat bas been snppressed has been reflectioll' upon the poliey of the Government ?-1t wonld be better for the Commission to see the passages thllt havo been eliminated.

94. Whom are the report.s addresse(l to ?--To the Secretary. 95. By whose authority would those eliminat.ions be l11!l,dn ?-1 rerLd the reports, and any passages

it may be thought desirable t;hat tho Secretary or tl!f\ Minister should see befol'e they nre published arc brought under notice, and if they lire thought to be suitable for tbe report, and not in any way objection­able, they are published. Sometimes the inspectors alter tho reports themselves if we draw their attention to anything that might be modified.

96. Practically there is no gnarantee that the views of an inspector who snggests reform and critieise!> existing methods freely will get before the public lit all. Yon Itl1d the Seeretl1ry and tho Ministel' can cut that down, and do so to some extent ?-Not much has been taken onto Years ago there was oue report suppressed. .

97. By N1·. Potts.-I uuderst,[tnd you ha"c a eotl!'se of training teachers to impart instructiOll to chiltlren on the subject of duirying and agriculture. Some of your teachers have recently passerl an examination in the dairy course 7-111 agriculture.

9!i. By lJlr. Jenldns.-Referring to the alteration of the regulations, how mnch t,ime is it proposed to give to the bending" b," "General Lessons: Class J," or t.he general lessons at nil ?-Tlle time-tables are made up by the teachers under the supervision of the district inspector. We do not prescribe how many lessons are to be given.

. 99. There is no limit ?-The limit is at the inspeetor's discretion. 100. rVhat was the renson why tbose object lessons and geneml lessons were separated in the

schcme from geneml Kindergarten 'work ?-Generul lessons "a," "h," mul "c," Kimlergtlrten work, form part. of' overy Jesson.

Alexander Stewart, 30th 'June, 1899. 6

101. RqfelTing to the ltpproved course of object lessolls 011 page 28 there are It Ilumber of lessons on plltnt. life, form, colour. nwl w on; what was the object in separlttillg tl1l)se (rom the geneml Kindergarten work referred to in the next page 29, "lGndergart(~n games wHh music," &e. f-That must be taken in eOllnexion with Regnlation 1, "Lessons OIl Plnnt Life." The" e" follows ror various oeeupntiotls.

102. The 1hing is duplicated, allli there appears to be no special reason ?-1 (10 llOt thillk there wns any speei:d reason for it.

o lOa. HIlS tbe Department consillered the possibiliiy of the Kindergn.rten expert completely upsetting this arrangement when he comes, and wanting the whole time of tbe illfltllt elasses for 'Kindergarten

, work ?~That is not the intention at present. 104. But, has the Department conLemplnted the possibility of~the expert wishing that to be done ?- .

"\Ve have not taken that into eonsi<Jemtion. ' . "'" . 105. YOll have fixed the eourse to which you wish the expert to conform when he comes ?-If the expert shows IlS that the whole work of the infant classes should be taught thl'ongh tite Kindergarten then the regulation would lmve to be re-drawn, . •

106. YOli say that the grent majoJ'it.y of the schools are smn.ll ones-what is to be done wit.h them; apparently they are exempt from these Hew provisions ?---,The small schools take up the other work. "Ye eommenee with the most importanf, sehoo1s, and as the. scheme works out Wy work down.

]07. YOll propose to lenve them 011 one side amI deal only with the sehools in the large towns?­"\Vhere there are teachers in the sm!tllcr schools who have taken up Kindergarten work ItS 'we un,lerstand it, not on the system yOIl are speaking of, we will give t.hem a free hnlld, and ns soon as the Trnining CoHege is opened, amllCindergarten forms part or the training, teachers will go ont frolll the college to the smaJlel' sehools, !pHI tuke up the Kimlergal'ten work ill those schools, and so the work will spread year after year. •

lOti, Tnming to this report fOI; 1897-"<, at page 29 you sny-" Should the neeessnry funds for ) doing so be plneed at my dispoml I shnll be prepared to establisil speeial classes in npproyed eentres ,for

instrnetion in these sul)jects "-that minil1l,( and agl'iculture j ettn you say what the Depal't,ment propose to do to giye effect to thnt ~en!ellce ?-Tlie proposal ha,l reej)i\'edllo definite form, bnt we had the idea thnt in the larger centres we eonld establish whnt might be cttHed central ~ChOOj,5, which would Lridge OVOlo

the distanee that now sepnrates the primary schools from the Agricultural College • . 109. Bnt no scheme has been prepttl'ed·?-No.

110. Has the Department contempln.ted the teaching of nlgebra to any gl'eat extent ?-Algehra is taught as an extm subject.

Ill. I am not spenking of it as nn extra sul>jeet ?-It is not tallght now as a subject of free instruction,'lmt we are providing under thc Hew regulations fol' tbe inclusion of euclid, algebrfl, amI Latin in the programme for pupil teachcrs fiS pnrt of their course.

112. Are pupil teachers qualified to teach (,lemeuiary algebra ?-They nre not taught elementary algebra as It reqnirell1ellt under the regtilations for their examilln.t,ioll.

11H. YOll would not alltieipate that th{J gene:'al staff of a sehool would he competent to teach the LO)'8 nlgehra ?-In many schools we havc pupil teaehers who have passed the roatricnlation examination ill algebra. Whene\'er there is n desire by parents for 1hat subject to be taught, ns n rule it enn lJe tuught.

114. Tho teaching for scieuee in thc proposed new regnlllt.ions appenrs to be practically the same as has existeol for some years ?-Pmcl:icnlly the same.

115, Haye you contemplated the improvement of that in allY way ?-The qncs!ion WfiS discllssc(l nt, the conferGnce, nml I he pmgm,lll111e prodded for t.hat su1.,ject )s the outcome of 111e united wisdom of the COll fcrence.· I

116. By jjh', JJ(/,?ntt.~You say yon IHlye visited New Sontli 'Vales and Sonth Australin to insileet ;the systems' in vogue in those colonies-do you give YOllr oflieers opportnnities to do the samc sort of thing ?-When I went to New Sonth Wulcs it was OIl the particular business of Scriptnrnl instnletiol1-I had 110 time to take up any other qnestion, ami I did hot hare an opportunity of seeing anything of the work, except what 1 migbt casually sec,

117. Does the-I )epartmellt send any of its offieers to inquire iuto mat.ters in order to improve, if possi.ble, the s),st@!l1 in Victoria ?-Yes, I weuL to Adelaide to see what could be dOlle in regard to estab-H:lllillg n Training College. .

llS. Did yon find any methods there snperior to what we have in Victorin ?-- We are not following the lines of the Training College there" .

. 119, Do YOll think it would be a goo,l thing for the Department to periodicnlly send olle of its offieers to other colonies or other cOlllltries tll inquire illto mat tors relating to education in order tQ bring us lip to dnte ?-l think so.

120, 'VItat was tiLe reason the inspectors' conferences were' discontinued ?-1 eallnot say from memory. .

121. Do you think such cOllferenees produeo good results l-Spcaking of 1,he last conferenee I my lrost undoubtedly iL did.

122. They were formerly held nnllu:tlty ; llc you n,lvoeate their being held 011CO n yenr or at shorter internlls, as is done in the {{ailwa), Department ?-1 would advocate n conference lJeing heltlilext year, and nnnuaHy thereafter, nml if nny qnestions came up of spe(;i~Ll illlport,nnce 1 would go the length of having a special conference. I think it is It great Lenefit to get men together to exchange views.

123. Do you say that Ilumerieally the teaching staffis tile same nolV ns it was he fore the retrench. ment, but the teaching is lIot so efficient ?-Nilmerically it is about the same, but I consider it reqnires to be stl'Cnglhened.

. 124. 18 it a.s eillcient now a~ it was prior to tile retrenchment ?-I think it should be strengthened. Thc teaching ll1igh~ bekept IIp 10 the slnlld~tl'd with pupil tcncllCrs who Hra ill their 1st elnss, who are equal to 8th !ts:;istalHs, but the teaching staJI should be st,rengt,helled.

125. Are not SOllle of tho large seh')ols ill t,lie city and suburbs slIm'ring from the faef: that through' the system of re!renchlllent that has been pursllecl pllpil tenchers Hnd monitors are I1laceti in ehnrgo of classes Ihat tlwy are se!treely fjllnliHed to toach ?-1 do [lot know 01' nny special instances, but tbel'e is no dOllLt that with 11 stair malle llJ:i uf pupil teachers nud monil.ors, l'eplltcing assistltlits, the work might be expected to fall heavily on sOllie monitors ml(l somc pupil tcncher~,

7 Alexander stewart, 30th June, lEOO.

126: As a matter of faer, 110 you kno~ that it is so-that there are monit.OI's and pupil teachers who are teaching classes, and tbose classes are not being taught efficiently at present ?-The percentage of results stands as high as it did before j taking the schools.as a whole the work is kept up. ,

127. Yon are still It strong believer in tbe Kindergarten system, and wisll to see it extended to t.he State school system ?-Yes.

128. Supposing this conrso o~ instruction is pnrsnell, you expect that the children will be asked to pay for the cardboard they use ?-I think it likely.

129. Do YOll not think that at present the cost of books and materials is a pretty Ileavy tnx on the parents or scholars?-The cnrdboard would be It very small itcm. 'Ve supply It goo~l many things to the scbolars j parents who are not able to pay have a free stuck, but we have no idea or supplying children with all the stock they require in the school for nothing.

130. Would it cost very milch l'-It would cost 11 good deal. 131. Supposing it vms not possible for the pnl'ents to pay for those things, tbey would be put

outside the pale of instruction ?-No, we would supply thelll. . 132, Should books fwd all necessary I'eqnisites l::e. free ?-I have not eonsidcred that qnestion at

all; the children haye always been accustomed to pity for tile books, and I IHtI'e not thought there was auy necessity to provide them with hooks.

] 33. What is the method you propose to pursue with the hand and eye tmining-is it simply to give purely elementary instrnct,ion, to loach the children to accustom tliemRelves to tools?-Unlcss there is some one who is c:tpable of teaching wood work, we do not propose to take np tools ot all.

134. YOIl say-" Any other- approve,l eourse" i'- lOll may II:1,\'e a teacher qual ified to teach wood work, and if he is qualified and willing to do t,hat we would let him follow bis inclination. _

135. Are the portions of the reports that are Cll t out thillg~ of a political nature ?-N 0; 1 said they were matters of policy. I

136. By Dr. 11[(tcJi'arland.- I understand all the science teaching that, has been dOlle ill the Stale schools comes umler the heading of .general les~ons? - Y cs.

137. 'Vlmt encouragement does the Department give to teachers to take np that hranch of general lessons; do they prol'ide them with any l1,ppn.mtus for teaching? - Yes, .the Department will contribute so mnch if the local cOlltribntioll is so much.

138. That is to be expended by the head teacher in appamtns?-Yes. There is l1, form of application for difft'rellt !tpparotus; t,he prices are all statetl.

139. Does it directly come under your knowledge that applicalions of thl1,t kind Imve been made by a 1l1,rge proportion of the i'chools of thc colony ?-I am constantly passing applicntions of that sort.

140. Can you gil-e us an ide(L of the number of schools in the colouy which luwe appal'aLns supplied in that way ?-1 cannot sliy irom memory.

141. Does the teaching of science or the success of the teacher count in the payment of resnlts :-Yes. 142. How is it examined ?-As a class subject. 143. The teacher, on t.he result of a yem"s teaching in science, would not recei ve more thaIi two 01'

three questions on science ?-It would rest with the iuspector to satisfy himself. He asks ns many qnos­tions liS he thinks necessary to determine the marks t,o give. It IS an oral examination.

144. He docs not see tbe teacher give a lesson? -The inspector is Sll pposed to visit the school twice a year. On one visit he is supposed to see the working of thc school. He mlty see object lessons then, or he may not, bnt nt his examination for resnlts in those litrge schools there is nn oral examination, and according to the answers he awards so TIlany marks.

145. Tho science teaching is only a fraction ef the subject; it doos not, stallll by itseH as a separate subject ?-'Ve had dra wing as a class lesson, and only lll1,ve half paRS for it. To oncolll'uge this teaching of drawing, and to give it n~ore weight, and to reward the teacher wbo taught it properly, we raised the marks from a baH PI1SS to a full pnss. This hnnd ltnd eye tminhlg will not come ill t,hc resnlts cxamina· tion just now; but bofore the next eXl1mination, if it is thought right that more weight sbould be given in the result to tbis subject of generflliessons, including science, it is only a matter of increasing the yalue of the pass.

146. BiJ Ali·. Lon!l.-When you ",vere in South Anstralia, did yon look into the teaching and the work in Kinderganlen and hand nnc! eye tmilling ?-I did not, I saw some of the work, but I did not look into it with the idea. of l'eporting upon it.

147. By "lf1-. Poolmctn.-From yoill' experience of the youth of the colony, do yon think lInder the -present system it ",ould be possible to cxtellli the science teaching in the hours up to the age at whicb the boys now nsunlly leave the school, or whetlIer 'any technical educatioll WOldt! have to be gmfted on 10 the present sptem-that is, tlmt It hoy's term Itt school would have to be extended; do yon think the youths of the colouy are capable in their present holll's of training of taking in more than they do at pre­sent, or is the department of opinion thn,t nuy system of technical euucatioll willmelLl1 1111 extended period

.for youths to remain at school?-We have lightened the wOI:k ill some direct.iolls, flnd wilen this sort of wOI'k is put in practice WP. call see how it works. I have been eonsidering the fJuestion wheLilcr subjects canllot be lightenetl to allow of science tu corne in wi,thont encroaching upon the school il()tus., While I wish to keep lip t,he standanl, I think probably less time might bc in the higher classes, slleh as tbe 6tb, given to lI'riting. Writing might be lett out., so that time might be del'Ole(1 to science, and perhaps also rending. You will find in comparing these regulations with the previolls regnlations that there is some lightening of the work on this acconnt, but when it is carried out thoronghly, the quostion of fnrt.her lightening will have to be consi(lered. .

148. There are complaints lIOW that a boy who goes to a connting-house from It State school is ntterly unfitted for it. Will tllig lightening of t,be work still further unfit him for COlllltillg-hollse work?-1 do 1Iot think it is desirable to reduce the literary standard oE the work.

149. By fif?· J'enkins.-Yon think it is possible to att/tin the same literary standanl by easier means ?-Yes. I think thc literal'y standard is kept up alld t.he work is Hot so stiff. We wlLnt to enable boys to obtain scholarships a.nd go into the secondary sehools, and thon into the universities. I should not like the standard to be lowered.

The witness withd1'ew.

Adjourned to Jlond(qj next, at ltctlfpast SelJen o'ctock.

8

MONDA. Y, 3RD JULY,. 1899.

Members present:

~rREODORE FINK,' Esq., M.P.~ in t,he Chair; J. G. Barrett, Esq., . j J. II: MacFarland, Esq., LL.D., H. C .• Tenkins, Esq., F. W. Poolman, Esq., .J.P., C. R. Long, Esq., M.A., H. W. Potts, Esq., J.P., F.C.S.

James Ba,gge, 8W01'l1 and examined. 150. By the Cha'i?·man.~What are yon ?~Secretary for Education. 151. You fire the administrative head of the Education Department ?-Yes. 152. Is it; the practice of the Dep,nrtment to aIter or suppress parts of the inspectors' reports before

printing them ?-I think the first occasion 011 which it was dono was in 1890 or 1891. The report· of an inspcctor waB sent dov\'ll to the Depnrtmont" and I believe it was bid before the Minister. It was returned to tho inspector because it was not in accordnLlce with the practice of tho inspectors, which was to report on the work of their districts. I think, speaking from memory, that the minute on which that report 'was returned- said that the Department did not wnnt a dissertation on ednoation; all it wanted from the inspoetor was Ii report Oldhe work in' his district., I think that report was not published I1t all.

153. Couiel yon mention any other reports whioh were eithor only partia,lly printed or treated in tho same Wl1Y ?~The 1'lllillg was laid down on t,he 8th Augnst, 1891, mlll that rule has praoticnlly been followed since. Tht; minnte says-" I oannot recomm!3nd ~he printing. of this report in its pl'eSoilt form. Iq only the smallost degree is it a report upon Mr. --'s work; the rest nppears to be an ullpro­fitl1ble aull a vaguo mass of generalities animadverting on the existing sys{.em of public instruction :md on things iu general. It does not seom that any good would resnlt from the publication of this production, and 1 am qnite unable to recommend that it be print;ed at the pnblic expollse." That was the reoommenda­tion of·the then Inspector-General, and thore is a furl,her minute by him~" Write to Mr. -~, stating that his report has beon snbmittefl to the l\1:inister, who is nnable to approve of it, and reqnests that lVIr. -- will be good enough to furnish another in lieu of it, the matter being restricted to fhots concerning the inspoctor's work and the condition of the schools within his district.." I can supply the Commission with the last two reports in which passages have been left out.

154. Have there only been two other reports in whieh passages have beel! left ont there have been several. .

155. By "~lr. Jenhins ... -I s that minute initialed by the Miuister ?-;-No. }'"56. Did it go bofore the Minister ?-I presume so, hnt his initials are not there; there arc the

initials of the Inspector-Goneral, :Mr. Brodl'ibb, and the Secretary, Mr. Main. 157. By the Chainnan.-'l'hat minute says the report shouhl be confined to the actual work inspected

. and the condition of the schools in the inspector's district. Without criticising the propriety of rejoct,ing that report, do you think it advisable that their reports shonld be confined to bald faets, a;dlltl icated in that mem(\ra.ndum ?-I doubt whether it is nn ill~pector's dnty .. to critieise the Education Act.

158. Is it not Lis dnty to criticise the mode in which the Act is ndministered so fm' as teaching is coilOcmed ?~ Yes, bnt I think I remember a case some year:;; ago in ,,,hich an inspector commented npon roligious insfl'uction.

159. That is a matter of policy, but teaching is the subject of regulations made under the anthority of tho Act 1-Yes. I will indicate wbat we have taken out of the reports, and you will see the nature of the suppressions. In Mr. Holland's report for 1897, the first paragraph taken out.is a matter affecting his own district, as to the amount of work......:he submits that the district is too large. Then, in 1897, complaints were made hy the teachers that tho system of examination adopted by the inspectors was not nniform­thlit a part of the examinat,ion was conducted by SOme inspectors in writing, and by others orally. The inspectors were all written to for their opiniolls, and the majority were in. fflvonr of the illlliviullnl' examina­tion of the pnpils. That system had not been given a trial, and Mr. Holland's criticism on it was strnck out. '

160. Tho:m wore botb matters which deeply concerned tho inspector; do you Hot consider that those two matters which the senior inspector called the attention of the Department to were matters of public importrmce respecting the administration of the Act, and also directly affecting the officiency of the teaching ?-To some extent, no doubt.

161. Are lIOt those matters that Parliament and the public would naturally expect to fiull discussed in the annual report. What is the reason for excluding them from discus~ion, more partioularly as in print.ing these reports yon purport to give the whole of them; there is nothing to indicate that the public are not getting the whole of the minds of these gentlemen as to the working of the Act ?-We oould not give them any reliof.

162. Do you consider that you are only to pnblish such criticism as is either sOllud in yOUl' opinion or such that yon can give effect to. What.is the object of pnblishing the inspectors' roports at all '/ -To give thc public information as to the worki.ng of the Act. .

163. Do you not think it wonld be better to give the whole of the infol'mat,ioll, within reasonnLle limits; I do not mean to say that if yOll have It cranky roport, utterly outside the proper Hcope, you are to pnblish that, but within reason ?-I am afraid we looked npon this matter as being personal to the inspector.

164. Does not he say that the district is so large that, thongh he is senior inspector, he cannot do justice to'it'?-Yes. .

165. Is it not very esscntial that Parliament and the public shonld know that they have the material for criticising the administrntion of the Act beforc them ?~I do not see any objectioll to its ?eing made pnblic. .

166. Is it any part of your duty to read the reports ?-Mr. Ste"'ftrt reads the rcports through first, and then those doubtful paragraphs are shown to me; they also go to the Minister, teo, as it mle. The whole report is shown to me.

167. W onld it be your duty to read these l'eporJs from an educational point of view ?-N 0, only as a nmtter of administration. .

9' James Bagge, 3m July, 18119.

168. In 1891-2 salaries and allowances to teachers amounted to £571,716 5s. 6<1.; last year the amonnt was £437,262 15s. 7d. J;'or the yel:w ending 30th June, 1894, there was a decrease of no less than, £225,000; that practically means in the ad'ministmtion of the ,yhole system ?~The whole of the Depart­ment, bnildings, pensions, and salaries.

169. The reduction in the payment of teachers had not then reached the proportion that i.t has since, notwithstanding that yon say in 1894 :-" The best efforts of the Department IIrc still engaged ill dcalillg with thc qnest,ion of furl her reducing the expend.iturc, and at the same time ll1ainta,ining the present standanl of efficiency. These cfforts will, it is estiml1ted, result in 11 further saving for the currcnt fitlancial year of abont £35,000. There is a point, however, which is rapidly being reached, when further reduction would mean false cconomy." After 1894 t.llOl;e were further reductions, to the extent of about £30,000 in the teacLing staff can you say what the effect of that reduction in payment ,,'as upon the efficiency of tile teaching staff first reduct.ion was in 1893. In tlll1t year the Department, for retrenchment purposes, fixed the 11111ubor of assistant.s in any school at not more than six. Previously I,here were two assistants fOI' an attendanco of 150, and for evt;ry additional 100 there was nn assistnnt, 3111l a pupil teacher; in a large sehool of 1,150 there would bc twelve assistants nnd twelve pupil teachers. Now iu a school of that size thcre are six. assistants, eighteen pupil teachers, ami four monitors, so that the nUl11cricl11 strength has been increased, but the Humber of adult teachers has been reduced, In Novembcr, 189:3, the Regrading of Sabries Act No. 1334 was bronght into force. That Act rednced the maximulll Biliary that It mafe tencher coulll get from £,195 to £432, aUll correspondiugly reduced the snlaries of t,bc lower classes right down. The maximnm salary that 11 female teacher could get was rcduced from £324 to £207.

170. Has there been a large incrense of female teachers ?-I thill k so. The effect of that Act wheu it got illto full workiug order would be a saving of about £45,000; that wn.s the estiml1te made when the Rill \\'a~ preparell.

171. Was there any reason for Shllt,tillg up the Training College, except to save mouey ; has the necessity for training teachers disappcared ?-In my opinion thei'e is a greater necessity for it. If you havc a lu,l'ger lIllmher of pllpil teaehers t,here is a greater to pnt them through the Training College. ,

172. It was nbolisLcd wheu it was most required ?-I cauuot ~ay why it was done. 17.'1. Do you consider you ean ntlminister the education system efIiciently without the Training

College ?-Yon get a better class of t.eacbers with 11 Training College, I should say. Theu in 1895 there was l1 Regrading of Schools Act passed, increasing the minimum attellClance for each of the classes, and consequently reducing the number ill thc higher classes'; for instltllCe, a bt. class scbool under the olu Act' mllst havc an attemhtnce of 700 ; under the new Act it must have an attendauee of !:l00. Of course there are fewcr schools with an attendance of over 800 than with an attendanec of oycr 700, and a similar increase was made in all t.he c1ussos. Then, under the old Act, we had ouly six c1asscs of scbools, whereas nolY we havo seven. A 5th class school was OnO with all attendance of 20 to 50; we split that class into two, and raised the maximum fro111 50 to 75. The schools with an attendance of less than 20, whieh wore formerly unclassificd, 'wc mrtde into tlic 7th class. Tho conseqnence of the schools being gradetl higher was that the teachers werc in excess of thcir clnsses, nll(l bad to wait ulltil they could gct transferf.'. The cffect of t.hat regrading was It saving by retrenchment of about £78,000; that was on top of the othor retrenchment.

174. Yon redllceli the value of the post.tions and yon retluced the numbers also ?-No, the reduction in the Ilumher of teachers was relatively small; the only rec1uction we made ill Ihe nnmber of teachers was by mising the numher entitled to an assistant.

li5, Raising the avemge I1ttcndnnce from 700 t.o 800 wonld naturally decrease the nnmber of 1st clnss schools ?-Yes, but we would still have thc head teachers.

176. And those teachers of 2nd ell1ss schools who aspiretlto be' appointed to 1 st class schools would necessarily have fewer schools to aspire to ?-Pra.ctically we took away the prizes of the profession, but the reduction oftenchers is very sml1l!.

177. BV 1Ih. Je111dns.-Dicl they have to accept a lower position ?-Ko, they waited until they got transferred to a position equivalent to their classificl1tion.

178. They wonld have to wnit longer?-Yes, we have a lot now not transferred. 170 .. By tlw Clzairrnan.-It wonld come within tllO scope' of yonr duties to know that Kindergarten

work has been practically discontinued I-Yes .. 180. That was also dOlle from motives of economy ?-That was so. lSI. The Department commenced to intro:luce Kindergarten ten or eleyen years ago?-Yes. 182. 'Were the i.nstructors sent away ?-No, we had two of our permanent relieving teaehel's told

off to do this work specially-they visited t,he different centres. Onc was stlttioned ill Melbourne, and tho other visitetl Ballarat, Maryborough, Bendigo, and, I think, Geelong. ,"Vhen the vote was struck off, in 1894, tbey were sent back to their ordinary tlutics.

183. By ~lh. Jenl<i?~s.-YOll practically di~pensell with them as teachers of Kindergarteu ?-They were sont back to their ordinary work as tcachers-they did not suffer at all.

184. By the Chai1·man.-There was an attempt made to make the teachers teach Kindergarten ?­Yes, those two teachers not only taught in the schools bnt in seyeral of the ceutres they had classes for teachers fiB well.

185. How long would it have taken to-instruct all the teachers in the art of imparting Kindergarten instmction ?-It would Imve been impossible for them to do so-they could not have gOlle to all the small schools.

186. So far as the large schools in the big centres were concerned, how long would it have taken? -I have no idea.

187. By 1Ifr. Jeniiins.-The system was not universal ?-No, it WI1S practically only extellded to thosc teachers wbo wfmtell to tench it. -

188. By tILe Chairman.-Thcl'e was no nttempt at manual training ?-Nothing at all. 189. I nnderstand that the Department has recelltly issued regnlations as to Kindcrgarten and

band and eye training; call you telllls what has been done, and what is proposed to be doue in relation to that ?-The inspectors, at the suggestion of the Minister, sat in conference in .r I1nuary.

190. Were those new regulations the resnlt of that conference ?-Yes.

James Bagge:' 3rd July, 1899. 10

191. Those regulations are s,ot out in the form of approved courses-have they been sent out yet? -They havo been made pnblic, and have been approved by the,Governor in Council, anti they fire about to be pnt into foree.

192. You have told us that r,ho teachers as p. whole neo not qualified to impart the Kindorgarten system ?-N?, they aTe not.

193. Have 'You formed I1ny idea as to tho lIumber who arc 'qn:dified in the large contres '?-No, I have not made uny inquiry; that is practically outside my province.

194. That wOldd apply to hand and eye tmilling also?-Yes; T canllot express IWy opinion as to tlla t. . 195. Is it 'a fact thnt t.he Depart.ment has decided to import from England, 01' to nppoint ill some

way or another, 11. number of persons to giveinsll'lletion ill Kindergarten mcthods ?~[t intends to import one mall to orgltl1lze.

196. And also a nn m bel' of officials to i ntl'od lice the hnnd and eye and llHHlIUti training? - Yes. 197. fIttve yon made nny estimate of the cost of intl'oducing Kindergll,rt,ell and hand and eye aud

,nmnnal training 7-vVe have for the Killdel'glll·ten. Taking what we believe the Department enn supply at the present time, we estimate it will eost about £2,000 to introduce Ihe mat,erial at 'iir"t. 'Whether we would COIlt.iIlIl~ to supply the whole 01' wonld add to our list would be a mlltter of experience.

198. '¥hnt is your opini_on as to tlIe abilil y of one organizer. and instructor 1.0 iutroc\ nco t.he system?­I could not give an'opinion as to that. In my opiniotl the organizer would deli\'er courses of I(!ctures to teachers in the different centres, nnd wOllla also give a eOlll'se at the Training College to the femnla students there. "

199. Having these things in "iew, would ),011 regard it liS highly desirnble that the Traininf!,' Coll,'ge shonld be re-orgnnized Itt onee '!~vVe propose to re-open the Tmilling College 1I0xt Jannary Ot' February.

200. _4..re yon making provision for instl'lletiug t,he teachers ?-Not ill the mantllillmining ; we have not dono anything in tllat.

201. Have yon made any estimnte of what tho expense wonld be in ILlldition to those inslrnct.Ol·S flolld orgnni,zcl's ?-\Ve would not be ill a position to do anything in mallnal training ulltil we got Ollr organizp).

202. Until all those officinls arri\'e, yon have'l1o idea of what t.he eo,st will be 1'-1 shoulll thiuk wiclr the Kindergarten we might hnvo. '

203. The ,.£2,000 does not rolate to the cost of classes of in13tructiolt ?~No. , 20~ .. B:1j Dr. il:lacFarland.-That \Voultl be for tbe large cent.res ?-It would he for sehooh with I1n

atten'llanee of over 100. 205. By the Cltai1·'lIwn.-Has the Department ma(le. up its mind as to the schools in which this

~ystelll will be iutl'odlleed ?-I think the Department COlt siders thnt schools with 100 scholar:; should get the Kindergarten taught. .

206. Hlwe they considered the feasibility oE ihtrodllcing it iuto other sehools gradually, amI having infant instrnetioll carried out as a whole upon that Ilrinciple ?......,.J think that would necessitate lmving a sort of infant mist.ress, for which there is no provision. .

, 207. Has the policy beon carefulJy considered ?~1 believe 'it ha.s been di~el1ss'ed hy tlte inspoccors in conference.

208. Has [my reeommellllation beon made about it ?-I have not seen one, nOt' have I hourd'of ono. 209. Practieally, there is HO detinitc comprehensive pcJicy yet l1rrived at., as far as you know ?-No

-as to the manual tmining, I call say there is absolllt,ely nothing. ' 210. Are there a great many ot.hcr items of expenditure ?~Yes. There would be the organizel'.'!

and the teachers' salaries-there wonld be the l)\liltlillg~, if we ha,ve to put lip llew buildings, and t,hc tools -that is an unknown qualltit,y, but t,he tools woultlnot cost much.

2] I. Have YOll considered whether it wonld involve any radicnl change in the system oE payment by resnHs, either in relat.ion to the snJ,jeet exnmined, or in relation to tho school ,york liS a whole ?~A great deal would depend upon wlm!. age YOll tnke t.he children. If you take tllClll after they attain tbe age oE fourt~en in the sixth class, I do not think it would make much difterence; of COllrse, it wonld luwe to be modified if yon did take them. If you took the boys away mllcl! earlier than whon they got into ! he sixth class, it would mOllify their education, but if yon take them when they Illwe into the sixth class, one afternoon a ,,'eek would not mnke so milch diffcrence' to them.

212. In the event of teaehers qualifying thcmselves in the Kiudergarten ami manual training, would the classifiers of t,he Department, ba disposed to recogllise those qtmliflcations in dealing wit~ the classification of the teachers ?-If we issned cerlificlttes, I presllme we wonld treat them exnetly 111 the slune way as we do those who gat the science eet:tificutes now; in cla-ssifying them"we give them credit for every certificate they possess. .

213. Is it withill yoit!' province to sny to what extent thc school curriculum wonld be altered by the .introduction of those subjects ?-No. \Vhellever there is an Itlt,eration in the curriculum there is n , oonferencc of the seuior inspectors called.

214. By Mr. Poolman.-You sny abont £2,000 wonld be the cost. of fhe ttla terial-how lOllg would that last ?-The greater portion of thut wonld be kept, in the sehool.

215. 'Vould it cost £500 a year in addition ?~I doubt 'it. The only point we arc in {[qubt about o at the present time is as to how f:LI' we should go in supplying the material. A lot of the material the

children wonld make up themselves, and take the complete article away with them; ,:-hether we will make them pay for the material 0)" supply everything free is n qllestion. ,

216. In view or the proposal of tile Department to SC1ll1 110lflo for an organizer in t,he Kindergarten ut 11 cost of £309 per annum, and the cost of tile introduct.ion, £2,000, do YOll not think the Department, hits b3ell dilatory in introducing the syst.em, eonsitiel'ing the cost wiH be 80 little?-We had Kindergarten up to 1894, for about seven or eight yeurs ; it was then 8tl'11C];: olr by the t.hen head of the Department,

. and there was 110 vote ont of which we could take the material. ' , 217. By Dr. JlIa.;i?al'land.-':'What was the' estim:tteu saving by striking tlmt nut,1-We had two

items, Kindergurten and cookery-1 think, speakilig from memory, the vote was £50) for tbe 1\\'0, bnt that did not include the salaries of the two teachers.

218. By ~'1-i1'. Poolman.~For the sake of under £l,ODO a year the Department discontinueu t.he :..-" Kindergurten altogether ?-The Government" !lot the Department.

219. vVn.s any protest raisell by j,he Department ?-It was Oil the recommendation of' the theu permunent head that it wus struek ont-the: Department did it. The Minister said to us before that-

11 James Bag-gc, 3,,[ July, 1899.

" You must go on; YOll must progress," anel this was the result of the Minister's instructions to the Department-this memorandum of last year was the reault of the Minister's order 10 llS to pl·ogress.

220. The progress of the Depnl"tment depends very much upon the permanent head ?-No, we coulll not get voles; they would not put it on the Estimat,eS-'Ye wore toldto retrench amI retrench, and retrench again, and we had to carry out orders.

221. By .flf1'. Pot/s.-The Depal'tll1ellt has issued a curriculnm for the cOlldl1ct of this Kindergarten system, which Ims been publisbed-you send to Englaml fOI' an orgltnizer and you practically tl'llmmel him by stating-" You shall tcach this system as we have laid it down," after importing a new man to conduct 'it ?-The Department is premature in tlmt. 'Ve have dOlle nothing in lllul!ual training, or with the training regulations.

222. You laid the regulations down amI you admit you know not.hing abont it, ?-TIHtt is the Minister's ortlel', to go on with it:

223, Supposing this gentleman you lmyo sent home for arrives hel'e IWel says-" This is' obsolete;' are you going to force him to earry out yOU!' ideas ?"Cel'tainly not,

_ 224 .. Then those three or foul' thousand copies that have been published are of no vnllle ?-The detail is, not the regulation.

,225, By l"lr, Jenlliuil.-On page 29 of the pres~nt report it states-" Should the necossary funds for doing so be placet! at my diliposal, I shall be prepared to c~t,abli8h special classes in approved centres for instruction in these snbjects ;" h:we any steps beon taken ill that matter, to your knowledge ?-NOllO, whlttevel'.

226. By tlte ClI.ai1·man.-Retrenehment took pla~e nnder the political necessities of the time; is the Depttrtment now endeavouring to reverse that poJiey ill rospect to the number of tencher,;; employo(l?­There is It proposal at present before the Minister increasing the number of assistnuts in schools above a certain size, Itnd red lIcing the number of pupil I,enchers ami monitors, If that is C!tITie(1 out it will to some extent remedy the llefect that Ims heol! pointed out to us, iJut it will depend upon whether "re get tllCfnntls placed at onl' disposal. I ha,e the Bill in lIly dmwer, and if the Millister gives me inst,I'notions to go on with it it is only It matter of sending the proof down to the dmftsman to put into propet' shltpe,

[Tlte witness Iwnded in tlte following 7'et1l1'n :-]

EnUCATlOS D£l'ARTlI[ENT.

Statement of Expomlitnro for the Years lS01-2 to 18G8-fl,

, Act 1133. Act 1334, Act 1382.

·lSH3:-4. I

18!J1-2. 1892-3. lS04··5. 1S05-0. lS91i-7: .--,---1--·

.£ .£ .£ :£ £ .£ Total Expenditure (exclusive

of bllilllings) ... . .. 79U,(l20 747,521 062,54G 637,717 604,8i4 608,522 .---. -~--i- '-

Atlmiuistnltion ... , .. 4!J,040 45,38:{ 38,351 30,6H8 29,590 29,H71 Training .. , .. ' . ., 7,737 7,01l:~ :'1,657 ... .., ' .. Iustrnction ... . .. 664,492 G2S,Oi7 554,407 506,527 478,844 476,i:'lS

Teachcrs' Salal'ies "Iltl Re· suits ... .., 5G(),287 1351,(21) 50(;,000 464,885 440,:l52 4:l8,183

Singing ... ... 8,500 7,777 77 . .. ..' ... Drnwillg ... .. , 6,000 5 "9~ 84·1 669 :{72 :n:! DI'ilI ItncI GYlllnastics ... 4,;}52 3;080 1 10 .. . , .. Tra\'clling Expenscs-

Inspectors ... ... 5,578 5,429 4,3Gii 3,()G9 2,!JGO 2,H58 Teachers ... :l,661 2,578 ll,lflG 2,020 1,989 l,oeJO

Teachers of Singing and Drawing ... 778 761 4 ... .., . "

Allowance to 5th Class Femltle Teachers 6,£;99 4,112 1,733 i 10 ... ..,

non~\SeS-Sillgillg, Dm~;: ,it~, and Pupil Teachers 5,842 ;3,lii9 ],224 7 50 ...

lCm crgarten, &c. ... 526 :i43 210 108 " . " . Exhibitions , .. . .. 1,875 2,050 2,087 1,077 1,848 1,457 Scholarships ... ... 7,130 5,88;~ 8,9a6 2,078 580 ... :Maintenance ... ... 37,461 33,461 30,286 29,279 29.2;,0 29,H!)0

Mclhoul'lle University , .. 11,750 H,750 4,7,10 4,750 3;250 3,250 Technioal Schools '" 29,316 17,065 1~,843 U;!J78 14,773 1l,!J09 Pensions p,~id from Special

Appropriations ... ... 23,982 31,443 42,7(;4 02,467 75,210 7J ,624 Buildings and Reuts ... 65, [69 28,272 8,930 6,651 0,932 10,897 Percentage Deductions ,,, ,,, 12,300 31,427 2';,334 2:3,993

! 22,893

1897-8 AS COMPARED \VITH IS01-2.

THE PRf1(CIP.-\T, ITt;~IS o~' Rt:'rRENCIHIENl' ARE AS }'OLLOWS:-Singing, Dwwing, and Drill ... ,.. '" BOllnses, Pupil Teachers, rmd Singing and Drawing Scholarship ... Training ... Compulsory C]ltllSe, Truant Offioers, &c. Technical Schools, l\failltemmce of... ...." Teachers' SahHies by reduetioll in number of Assistants, Act No. 1802 Tea,chers' Sah~ries by regmding of Salaries, Act No. 1334 (Estimate,1) Teachers' Salaries hy l'egriitling of Schools, Act No, 1:'182 (EstimMed)

, Amalgamation of Schools Administration

TIle w·itness witltdTew,

1897-8. --

£

60'2,OS:l

30,5:n . ..

477,455

4:l7,196 . .. 250 ..,

2,93!) 1,746

. .. , ..

. ..

... 1,429 .. '

30,IS9 .3,250 1l,9!JS

72,081 13,101 18,5G6

£10,]00 5,S42 7,000 7)700 6,000 8,000

11,0()O '15,000 80,000 37,000

9,O()U

:£2:J5,IH2

ESLimRted 1898-9. ,.---

£

G30,074

20,747 . ..

494,9;,}8

44S,643 '" ... ..,

2,070 1,800

...

. ..

... 2,15

2,00U , "

30,900 5,250

14,500

73,200 3] ,480 lO,479

12

Alexander Stewart" further examinee],

. 22~. By the Ohai1·rnan.- Can YOll tell us generally whether there have been any important changes m the subJects taught, or I he methods of teaching, in the last fifteen years in your Department, or have yOll been confined to the methods' existing previously to that period ?-There are t1lwt1ys changes, bnt during all that (·ime we have carried ,out the system of iust.ruction nnder what everyone knows as the result system'. There has been some modification of that; somelimes we have tried perhaps cbss exmnination, or imli-vidual examinations, and that sort of thing. -

. 228. Yon were asked last week how the system of payment by results would opemle in the event of Kmdergarten and manual training being intl:oduced-yon saill you would like to think that malter over; have YOll formed any ideas on the subject ?-I have given it some thought since; at prescnt "gencral lessons," under which we place Kindergarten, is not a subject for which payment -is made. In thc 1st, 2nd, 3~d, or 4th classes the snbjeet is taught, Itml 'the inspectors cxamJne on the subject, and report upon It, and thc tcacher may be, if he neglects it, open to blamc, but in the 5th flllLl 6th clas8eB the suhject comes ill with what may be called the reBuilt, payment,.

229. Have yon thonght whether it wou!t! lie desirable to alr,el' that system so that it, shall not npply to Kimlel'garten at all, and,yet t.110 teaeher' should get the benefit of his work ?-We are only carrying ont ge~eral lessons as hefore, incituling Killuergarten; in t.he 181;, 211(1, anu 8rd classes, awl it will 110~ be lllcillclcd as a pass under results; it does not come under the resu!t payment.

230. Have you coutemplated the possibility of this happening, that this instructor nnd organizer :vho is coming from England, nmy show tho Department Ihat the modern way of teaching the very young IS to teach them altqgethcl', or vcry largely on I,he Kimlergarien principle ?-In other words, 10 Killtlergar­tenize the teaching of the young children; that may be a developmem, but we are' not proviiling for that ,at the outset. It may work Ollt in that direction, of course j if YOli are teachillg Kindergartcn it involves the teaching of arir,hmetie, I1ml it 1l1r,y involv.e the teaching of some other subjects, bnt wc nre not applyillg it (0 the tencllil1g. In introdncing Kindergarten, we are not requiring tenchers to depart from' the ordinary course of teaching arithmcl.ic, althougll' those who know KindCl'garten lllay apply that system to the teaching of al'ithnietic.

28 L Have YOIl made up yom mind to what extent you will apply it 011 the ad vice of those instructors and organizers, or will YOll wait until they come, and t.ake counsel with them ?~"Ve propose to wait until they come !lnd take connsel. . ) ,

232. Then, praetically, the counsel that yon do ta.ke may result in an onslaught on the whole system of payment by resnlts, If Ihey show they IllllSt IGlHlergartenize the teaching of the young it is- quite likely that payment by results will not apply to it ?-There are liwny now who are anxiolls to have another system right through the schools, to tako tho pllLce of the result system, and if we have anything better put beforc us to take its place I will be only too glad to accept it.

288, Mr. Bagge regarded the proposed regulations as prelllatUl'e at the present time; does that correspond with yoI1\' view-that you have sent out rcgui:ttiollS kllowing very well that the teachers a~ 11,

whole cannot give effect to them in relation to hand and eye training; tlo yOll recognise that the slaff are not qmdified to impart hand and eye tmining in aceordancc with'the substance of the regulations that you have issuer! ?-They have started hand and eye L.,raining irl South Austmlil1 without any experts.

284. You told liS your teachers have no training ill it ?-Speitking generally, they have had no training. '

235. Do YOli not think that,is better that you should wait until your trainers and organizers 1ti'rive; ,is not there a great danger if yon start the system with !\lell who do not understand it ?-I think that there was a little confnsioll the other night about t,his halld and eye training. I withdrew my first impres­sion in deference to yoursel'f, alt.hough I had not read the context; but 011 reading the context" I think No, 8 is altemalive,

286. Either No.2 or part of 3 is compulsory ?-Yes) that is'what was intended. 287. Then my ohjection would still supply, that although YOll say that cardboard modelling migllt

be taught by teachers who are not instrncted in the matter, ,yhieh is not the opinion of the Irish Comillis-, sionors) still yon prescribe No.3, when it is pretty clear tha t the teachers,are in no way qnalified to tcach any part of No.8 ?-This was published to leMI the teachers in the direction we wished them to go-we wou!d not let them wait 11111,il the organizers came out, so that t,hey wonld ha\'e this immedilttely put before them, bill. there can possibly be nothing witli regard to this work nntil twelve months hence-there will be no examination upon the work nuLiI then, and if we have the organizers out in time, and thero is not any great delay, then before the examination came round we might be in a position to test t.hem.

238. What I want to put bofore you is the want of lmsiuess tact, in start,jng the system prematurely. Here is a pl15sage from the Report of,the Commission Oil lVIallual Tmiuing recently nppointed iu Ireland on this very pOillt-H It is llecessary to add tbn t we arc impressed with tile danger likely to result from such a branch of school work as this being tnken up by incompet.ent t.eachers, cspecial!y by teachers who do not appreciate, or even comprehend its educational aims. Experience in England has shown I,hat teachers are sometimes led by the apparent simplieit.y of mauy of the cxercises tothillk that the work IS such as can be done by a teacher almost without any previolls study, 01' serions preparation of any kind. As a Tesult, failing to comprohend the objects of t.he illslmctioll, they content themselves with devising the shortest methods by which children can be drilled to perform the exercises with a certain mechanical accuracy, and thus they fail to 8eCUl'e the rn08t useful result of this form of 'training. We think it, important, therefore, to insist, that unless a teacher thoroughly grasps the object of thesc exej'cises, and hIts mastered'the art of' ghing them intelligently to tbe children, the introductioll of eveu ,the most skilfully-devised course of band and eye training into a school is likely to do more harm t.han good." S peaking generally, would YOll be disposed to agree with that.?-Yes, I said I,hat is the roason I nm recommending the introduction at the earliest possible moment of those o"ganizers and instructors .

. 289. '1'he point ()f this is to wlLit nntil you get the organizers, and not to let tho teacher, howevcr well q11alified in othel: direct.ions, start this experim~Llting llntil he is ready. 'Vhen YOll speak about examinations twel vc months hence, yon apparclltly eontemplate fi system of ext1mio!!'tions which is not appropriat.e at all. If teachers drill their childref:l to perform their excrciscs with a certain amollnt of mecluwical accnracy, it is certain t.hey will get the usual praise from inspectors, which is wha.t we do IIOt wllnt ?-Wit.h regard to this approved comse, I hn.d two or three confercnccs wil;h nil Ihe senior impectors

13 AleXo.ndel· Stewart, Srd July, 1899.

of the stltfF, and one or two other inspectors who are familiar with this particular work, and this is the outcome of those discussions.

240. Those inspectors have no practical acquaintance with this hand and eye course; t,hey have only read the reports of commissions '(-Some of them have seen it in one of the neighbonring colonies.

241,. You said the system in South Australia WIlS introduced by men who had not seen it'anywhere else-is it not yOlll' impression that this Irish Commissioll recommend that instrnctors be obtained either from England or Sweden ?-Ycs, that is a recommendation with which I heartily agree.

242. Yon take up the same position and you are going to selld to England for those people; the reason of that. recommendation is that. they t,hink the system should be introduced by people who understand it ?­I do not think our teachers will ha.ve much to nnleal'll if t.here is not much time before those organizers come out, and where they have beeu studying the subjeet they will be better prepared. We are dealing with intclligent men, and the principles of teaching underlie Kindergarten as well as arithmetic or any other snbject. The same principle underlies all teaching, aud those people who arc trnined teachers can, up to a certain point, do some good, but I should certainly say that it would be only putting through the time that will necessarily elapse betwecn the issue of this reglliMion and the afl'ival of t:llOse teachers that we waut, and the sooner they are out the better I shall be pleased. '

243. Would you be surprised to find that some of the best of your men think this thing is ridiculolls, that they should be asked to start sOIilethillg they have not learnt-would you give weight to the views of representative head teachers if they pnt that view befol'e )'011, that they want to heal' something from experts ?-If there are teachers who hold that opinion 1 wonld give effect to it.

24..J:. As a man of experience, does not it strike yon that a large number of the teachers who will teach in n mecliauieal way are not likely to express dissent; they will do anyUlillg you tell them by regnla­tion, but it ig the able men who constitute the miIlOl'U,y who want to learn the thing properly ?-Some whom I consiller the most ahle lIlell on our st.aff have spoken to me abont this, and are prepared to take it up, aud some, I believe, have started. _

2..J:5. By 111r. Jenkins.-l~efen'illg to yOUl' memomnunm, I notice that with both the Kindergarten and the hand and eye training one of yOUI' reasons for wishing Jor those experts is to edncate the inspectors ItS well as the teachers-it, is those inspect.ors who have drawn np theso papers that will tie the hands of the experts ?-The inspectors associated with me in drawing lip those regulations are the five senior metropolit.an inspectors, the very best and most intelligent men that we have in the service.

246. Yon considel: thoRe five metropolitan men ill no way need this instruction ?-They wonld be !tll the hettcr for it, certainly.

247. By the Cluzirman.-Are the five men conspicuous for the interest they take in the scientific part of the c,nrricnlul1l at present ?-There is one of the fiye who takes a very Ii vely interest in the scientific part of the conrse; I will not say they all do.

248. By M1'. Potts.-Y on do not withdraw from your memorandum that these men "shall be required to educate our inspectors, who, apart from their theoretical knowledge, need to be made practically acquainted with the latest phases of the working of the system" ?-1 do not withdraw from that.

249. By M1·. Jenkins.-YOII approve of some system of Kindergarten and manual training being desirable ?-Yes, I approve of the system. _

250. You are aware there have been failures in trying /.0 put those methods into use 7-1 am aware or failure in the direction the Chairnian has indicated-I want to avoid slIch failures.

251. Turning to this Irish report, on page 216 tbey give thc reasons for want of success in Fmnce-(a) Costliness of method. (b) Want of teachers, no attempt being mude to cducnte the existing teachers on the subject, and those from the training college being too young and too few to take it np to any extent. (c) vVallt or a good educational system oULsicle of Paris. The systems adopted appeared to be too technical, and in general to be devised with the object of prodncing carpenters amI locksmiths rather than of giving a hand and eye training. Cd) Hostility of teachers and indifference of inspectors. (e) Want of time. (l) General inability on the part of the parents to understand educational utility of manual occupations. (g) vVant of sanction-no test 01' examination applied to elementary schools 01' training colleges, 80 as to exact a li;nowledge of the subject from the pnpils." Would it not appear to you that you are endangering the presen t introduction of the sy~tem by neglecting precautions against all thosc risks of failure. There is a certain programme put out tenttLtively, and you are putting yourselves in the same position as the people of France ?-Onc of the failmes we are guarding against is as to bringing them out ;, it is only as a gencral means of education.

252. Are you uot endangcring the pl'eseut introduction of the syst.em by not taking precautions n.gaiust those chances of failure; iu issning this circular you are running the risk of failure from nearly all those causes enumerated ? -The only answer 1 can give is that we expected this organizer to be out iii the course of two or three months or at the very longest, perhaps six months, be foro the end of the year­that was the means that I was depending on as preventing any failure that might possibly oocur; that we would rely upon the best knowledge and ability of somebody whom we brought out to advise us. If I had known wbnt I know now I would probably have acted differently. I did not kllow until very recently that the Technical Commission that was proposed to he appointed were going to include in the terms of the Commission the primary education in the State schools; if I had known that I should have held my hand until I knew what the Commission was going to l'ecomme114 and the thing was thrashed out.

253. JJy Mr. Ban·cU.-That would not have helped you, because if this had not been within the scope of the Commission, and yon had later on issued those rcgulations, then you would have made the same mistake, would you not ?-Except that we would have gone on for a few mouths until we bad t.he qualified people to guide us.

254. JJy ~Mr. Potts.-Are you justified in experimenting in that way in view of the appointment of thoso instructors 7-1 do not. see any very great risk 01' any great loss in it.

2.55. By M'I". Jen/lins . .::.-What is the system on which your present science suggestions have heen based in the regulations (-I think you will find they are almost a repetition of what has been carried out for years; I did not draw up the science syllabus.

256. Has it not been revised ?-Perhaps some subject has been put in and another taken out, but,. as far as I recollect, seience is what it has been. I think, speaking from memory, the previous regulations contained a science syllabus very much the same.

AieXfl'ndcr 31'<1 July, 14

, 2.57. Whitt olJiect hail YOI1 illlllilillas regards the teaching of the children-I\'hltt kiml of instrni)t,ioll di.l you pnrpose giving them ?-'l'here is It ?ol'tai't imtrlletiol\ there time cannot be given without cxperi­mcut, and Illnt tllstrllction was to bring I,he cilildren face to fae::) wir,1! facts rather 'than with wortls,

258, When lookillg ol'er il., it l\i'\110t seem to be casy 10 pick out I,\lat Wll,;,; the principle lIHllerlyin". the cOIlI·oe?·-It was an elementary notior: of sciellce. . b

, :l59. By N1·. ]'ot/s.- r II p~rticlllfLl:izillg t.he system of . agriculture in the State schools, this is a paragmph of t.IlC French COll1!Ilission-" AUer e;)lliiidering proposition~ to fra.me for nil the ordinary' primary'sehools n general syllaiJns, likc thnt jast quoted for those inHlletliately higher in grnde, the Com­mission l'eco:nmelHled that the in-t.l'llctioll to be given to these youllger ehilllre!! should not be tabniat,ell !Lilli stel'eol,ype.\ ill any regH,lar code 0'[ theoret.icnl teaching. They pJ;.cfel'l'ed to see t.he tea,ciling in tho

r elementary schools made essentially pmcticitl ami as simple as pussible, the attent,ioll of the children being always drawil t.o Idmt "'fiS goiug on aronnd them in the conntt'Y, aUlI their interest exeitetl in !L degree befitt.ing their age, onty sncll elementary llotiollS being pressed on t.hem nil might illlmel]iately conccrn the n,(~tnal t.illage operMiolls wldcll. thcy witllos"ed day by day. It. is left, therefore, to t.he intelligence of iHlli­vi~lllal teacllers to make their O,IYll prO!!ramllle for tllc fnmiliar lessons to be given, subjeet only to such control :t5 the llepartmenl;al pmrc;sors might be able to cxel'ci"e over the teaching staff of tile count.ry schoo\~." \Vollll\ y(\U approve of a gCHeml system of t.hat killd in teaching elementlwy agriculture?­I think that ill coulltry 0<;11001::: if t.l18 teaeher IUI.S thc hem and abilit,,' ill that <lireetion, we "'ouItl take sllch n suhject. as agriculture or dairying as a subject in pJn,ce or whn; ;~ight be more suited to a town boy. I nplH'ol'e of those gCllcrn I principles,

260, By ill'. ll!cP{wland.-In conllGxioll with t,he teaching of science in the s,chonl;;, in order to hrillg out the method 1>y which science Lcaching is conducto<l, physics especially, what llumber of schools 111ado applicatioll to the Department for gmnts to It,sist them in buying npparatus ?-I had this return dmwn lip !o-dll,y--" Appnratus for illustrating lessolls on elemelltary science SII ppliellto State schools as Hndel' :-1'0 24 fil',3t-c.:lass schools; 22 second-class schools i 42 third-class; 162 fOlll'th-classj 457 fiftlt­class; 47 sixt,h; alIt! 29 sc\'entll:-clnss schools." Alt::.getlrer there should l)e apparatus in 783 schools Ollt of a tOlal number of 1879. I was nsLetl wlmt t,he Department contributed towards the cost of this appnmtlfS. The ma,xinllllll gran I, (0 a Hrst or second class ~chool is £10; third, £7 10~. ; fonrth, £5; 'fifth or 1011'01', £3, bllt it is subject. to this condition-for overy £1' cOlltributed by t,he Department the proportionate annuat to he contribute:l locally second, allli thinl, £1 i fourth, 155.; fifth, or 101l'er, lOs.

261. By 111'1" Pot/,s. -Is any provision made for replacing bro!,ell apparatns 'I-The teaeher is snp­pose.] to keep I he appal'at,lIs complete, ami the npparrLtps' is t.he property of. the school; it remaius in the school, allil 'lhe teacher 1m" to hand it over with t,he inventory to his ,sllccessor. Sometimes they may make it IIp out, of I,he maintenance account. .

262, Did you provide the return I asked for Itt ,the lrtst meeting '{-Yes. [The u;itfU'SS handed in the folfowill!J IJaper

AGRICULTURE. There is ]10 prescribed col1l'se of training, t.ut-

1. Agriculture is one of the science sllhjects for which special certific,ttcs arc issuc,1. 2. Attached is thc ~ylhthus for examinat.ion. in agricultllre. B. This syl1alms and the text- books nanwl there were recollll1lent1u,l by 1Iir. T. K: Dow, the outside expert, and

wcre accepted by the Department, 4. The syllahus shows tile scope of the examination. i;.I~x"lIlim,tion papers fol' 1897 and 1898 "ttached. . H. j<~xaminul's for 1808 \Yere Mussrs. l'tobel't Dodd amI \V. M. Gttluhlc.

(Mt'. podel, of 1'/w A'/t5tmict.,ian, autell fot' :\'1['. Dow, absent from the colouy), Examiners for 1897 were ':\:ICSS1·S. T. K, Do\\' (The fASacle}'), and W. 111. Gltlllblc.

VW1·OHlA.

SCIENCE EXAMINATION,

\Ycdnesday, 21st Deccmher, 18!J8.

AORlcl,Tvnmr:.-Timc :-(Um to 4.30 p.m.)

1. Tl'a.cc the (tlHI formation of 'Volcanic, cdlnvial, san(ly, and clayey soils. 2. D"scribe a simple method of testing the genni",.ting powers of the seeds of onlinal'y fa'rln crops. 3. S!l.Y whether gl'een manuring or hlwe fallowing is hest athtpted for ccreo'! growilig, and givc I'easons for tile

conclusions lH'l'iI-ecl at. 1. \Vhy is the rqtr.tion of crops ncccssttry'l . G. Describe, the process of cnsihtgc making, inc1wling the difference betwcen s,vect and S01\l' ensih\ge, and the

elfect of tempcI'ature during lllaking on the fodder conscn·ed. 6. Describe what is me<tut by 11. gencraimanure and l\ special mmllJl-C. 7. Describe tlle Holstein-Frisian brced of cattle. 8. Deserihe tlw jll'OCCSS of testing milk for huttc!' fat, '\lltl state what yon know about hutter nmking. n. Name the ])l'iueiple heef-prodncing breeds of cattle, antI give their charactel'istics.

It!. '\Vrite a short essay upon one of the optional suhjects named ill the syllabus.

DEPARTJlll>ST OF Em:;cATION, VICTOlUA.

SCIENCE EXAMIN ATlON. 'Vctlncsday, 2211(1 December, 18\n.

AOlnClJ'L'rlnm, -(Timc: 1.30 to 4,30 p. m.)

1. "'hat constiLlicllt~ of soil m'c found in plants; and how <10 plants llcrivc their organic constituents? :!. Classify soils, and tlescribe the process of their formation. il. Dcscl'ibe the parts of <t plant; and explain gcrmination ltnd vegetltble growth. 4, How do phtnts obtain nitrogen, and what is its position in relation to manuring? I), Give all acconnt of grecn-manuring, and explain "the law of minimnm." Ii. State the principles of erop-I'otation, amI give rules for the application of the system. I. \Vlmt arc the adwmtages of land drainage'? tl. Distinguish between" SOliI' cnsilage "and ",sweet ensik,ge," and describe the processes o~ their production. 9. Give the principal points of difference hetween the dairying Iw(1 beef,prodncing hreeds of cattle,

10. \Vritc an essay. upon onc of the optional subjects named in the syllabus •.

15

Circular 98{(',

HEQUIH,EMENTS IN SCIEKCE SUBJECTS.

Alexamler Stewart, 3rd July, 1899.

Educn.tion Department, Melbourne, nth MltY, 1898,

The following details of re'lllirements ill the Science suhjects Itre circulated for thc information of teachers who desire to ohtain certificates uncleI' Rcgullttion V. 24. .

The q nestion of accepting passes in Seience suhjects in the First Year's Course of the University of Melbournc for 1890 and following ye(1,l's as cquivltlellt to certificates granled untler this syliltbus is now under consideration.

l.-·CIIEoHSTRY. Mcn.surement of mass, tempel'[LtUl'e, and pressure. Chemical Affinity. :''fechflnical Mixtures and Chemical Com­

pounds. Atoms n.nd Molecnles. Elements and Compounds. Nomenclature.· Chemical Symbols. Formulro and Eqnations. Laws of Chcmicn.l Combination. Valency. Atomic Theory. Determination of Atomic and Molecnlal' vVei"hts from Vapour Density. Determination of Atu.mic 'Veight from SpeciHc Heat. _I\vogadro's Law. Boyle's Law. Chn.rles'L",1'. Absolute Temper<lture. Delisity of Uases and Vapours. N'Lture of Acids, Bases, and Salts. Calculation of Qmtntities by weight n.utl hy "olulllc. Solution. Al1oln'(lY. Isomerism. The Periodic Law.

The chemistry of the following elements and their chief compounds :-Hydrogen, Chlorine, Bromine, Iodine, Fluorine, Oxyucn, Snlphur, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Arsenic, Cltrbon, Silicon, BOl'on, Antilllony, Bismuth, 'I.'in, Lead, Sih'cr, Gold, "'Platinul11, Copper, Magnesiulll, Zinc, J\fcrclIry, Pot[tSSiUIU, Sodium, Cn.lcium, Strontiulll, Barium, Iron, Nickel, Cobn.lt, Manganese, Chromium, Alulllinium. .

_I\n elementary knowledge of the chemistry of the following :-Methane, Ethane, Methyl Alcohol, Ethyl Alcohol, Methyl Ethel', Ethyl Ethel', Acetic Acid, Tartaric Acid, Oxalic Acid, Glycerine, Soaps, and the Cflrbohydrates.

Candidn.tes who pass in the written work will be required to lludel'go a practical ex(~mi'llation in order to test. their ability to perform elementary wOI·k sncll as, for instance, the prepamtion of oxygen, hydrogen, &c., thc practical applic1LtiollS of the characteristic (iry way alld wet way tests, allli the more important re·n.etions of the above-Hamed elemonts lLull their eomponnds, n.lltl gcnemlly to cn.rry out such experiments as would he useful in teaching It class.

The usc of text· hooks will be allowed at the lll'actieal exalllination; they should, however, he llsed merely to refrcsh the memory. Constant referencc to them for m'ery point al1l1 detail shonl<lnot be re'juire,l.

The practical eXfuuinatioll will lie held in ~lelbonrne, and emHlidates may present themsclves at any time con\'cnient to thelll.

Text.books recolllmended :.-BegiHners ShOll1tl first work through the examples all,l exercises in Sexton's" Inorganic Chemistry," /Hld aftel'wn.rds stlHly ])obbin and ,Valker's" Chemien.l Theory for Beginners," n.nd Thorpe's" Inorg,mie Chemistry" (lS!JO edition). .1"01' Organic Chemistry, the portions of Hemsen's ., Organic Chemistry" devoted to tho above­mentione,l compounds will bo suflicicnt.

2.-~1E:rALr,{JIWy.

Terms n.ncl appliances used in ~Iet;tllurgy. Furnaccs mid their constructions. Fuels suitable for Metallurgical processes. Fluxes-their nature and use.

The physical and chemical properties of ~'Ioreury, SilYer, Gold, PlatinulIl, Lead, Bisllluth, Coprer, Antimony, Arsenic, Iron and Steel, Mang'mese, Cobalt, Niekel, Tin, Zinc, Aluminium, J\1'tgllesinl1l, Sodiulll. The chic ores of the above, their treatment aIHl rednction 011 a cOlllmercial scale, Spechtl attention to be paid to the extl'n.ction of gold.

Weighing and ~Ien.suring. The elements of Assaying. :Methucls of 'Lssaying IJY dry way and by wct way (gravimetric, and, where suitable,

yolmuetl'ic methods) ores alltl ai10ys of the following: - SHyer, Gold, Copper, Leal1, Antimony, Bismnth, Iron, Zinc, Tin, and Meromy. .

The chief Alloys and Amalgams. :Electl'o·i\1otalll1l'gy. The electro-deposition of Sih'er, Gold, Copper, and Nickel. Candi<in.tes who pass ill the writton work will he relluired to undergo n. prn.cticn.l test. It is not expected that

they will he able to carry ont, say, an assay, £0[' lnstn.llce, with accnracy n.11(1 precision, as this cn.lI be attained by practice ouly; but work will be given to test whether they can put into practice what they have le'trned in theory. A knowledge of what to do and how to do it will he chielly looke(l for.

For time of practical examilmtioll n.nd use of text-books, sec nuder Chemistry. Candidates for ?<Ietallnrgy must ha\'e passed in Chelllistry, or must present both subjects at the same examitmtion,

bnt the certifie:1te for Nletalllll'gy wiHnot he issu~d till the candi,la.tc shall hwe passed in Chemistry. Text·books rcco1umcnded :--Hiorn's "Principles of Metallurgy," 1tlld Hiorn's" Practical j\'fetallllrgy and

Assa ying. )) :i.-DY;s'AMIQS AND HEAT.

I<leas of lcngth, Limc, amI 1I1n.SS. Fundament"l units of length, time, and mn.ss. l~xplallatioll of the ideas-motion, \'elocity, accclemtion, lllomentulli, foree, weight, Xewtou's laws of motion. Measnrement of space (length, area, volnme), time, mass, and force. Composition aud resolution of velocities, aceelera.tions, and foroes. Energy, ,liiferollt forllls of ell cI'lty, its conservation and transformation. \Vork. Thc principle of work. Moment. Tho principle of moments. Conples. Friction of solids. The simple machines. The law of gravitation. }"Llling hodies. Atwood's machine. Measuremcnt of the acceleration of gra\·ity. Centre of gmvity. Stable, llllstahle, aud neutral eqllilibrimll. J\-)otion of projediles. Uniform cil'<.;uln.r motion. Centrifugal force. The conical pendnlnm. The simplo pcndulnll1.

The essential and general properties of matter. Characteristic properties of solids, liquids, and gases. Fluid pressure. p,tsc'Ll's prillciplc. Pressnre within he:1.vy Hui<ls. Principlc of Archimedes. Hydrosta.tio machinery. Density ;Llld specific gmvity. Men.surelllcnt of specific gravity hy hydrostn.tic bn.lance, specific gravity bottle and hydrometers

, of vlLrialJle immersion. ~leasnrelllellt of presslll·e. Mercnrial and aneroid b:1.rometel'. Liljnid manometer. Boyle'S law. Air pumps. W:1.ter pumps. Syphon.

Text·books recQmmelldetl :-" Elementary Mechanics," hy L~dge. "KatUl'all'hllosophy," Part I., by Deschn.uel. rrhe general effects of Heat. Temperature. Thermometry. Expansion of solids, liquids, and gases. Charles' law.

Measnrement of the density of "gas. J\.j aximlllll density 'of water. Specific heat. Calorimetry, Change of st.ate, Laws of fusion and evaporation. Latent heat. Influence of pressure 011 the melting and boiling points. }'l'eezing mixtures. Aqueolls vapour. Tension of <l<]ueous VapOlll'. Maximum tension of vapom. Hygrometry. Diffusion of hea.t by conduction, eOllvexion, andradilttion. Heat a .form of energy. Conllexiou' between he1Lt and other forms of energy. Mechanical C(luj,ralent of heat. The steam· engine. Constrnction, use, and explann.tion of instruments.

Text·book recommended:-" Natural Philosophy," Part II., by Deschallel.

4.-S0U;s'D AND LIGHT. Vibratory motion. The nature and mode of propn.gation of sOllud waves. Theoretical and experimental determina­

tion of the velocity of SOHlld in gases, liquids, and solids. Reflection and refraction of sonnd. Clmractoristies of 'L dlJration n.lld corresponding ehal"tcteristics of n. l1I1\sical note. The principle of interference.

Beats. .Musical intervals. Sc[tles. Tempemlllent. Nlethods of determining pitch_ Siren. Vihroscope. Tonometer. Modification of pitch by relative motion. • . LOllgitndinltl and tl'ltlls\rel'se \·ibration. Vibration of strings, organ pipes, platcs, tuning fOlk Overtones. :;.Yl1lp'Lth~tic resonance, R?SollD:to.rs. ~nal'ysi~ of vibrations Mano~l1etric ,fl;:Lllles. Vowel sounds. Phonograph. COlllPOSltlOll of l'eetaugllln.r VlbratlOlls. LlssaJons' 0\1ITes. 'Collsonance, dlSSOlUtllCe, and resultant tones.

The nature awi mode of propagation of waveR of light. Methods for determining the velocity of light •. Photometers. Refleetion allll reiractiOlY of light at planc and spheric,,\ surfaces. Total reflection.

PriSlllS. FOl'l1lula for de\·in.tion. MinimulIl del'iation. Measnrement of rcfraeth'c index. Lenses. Formula for thin leuses. Determination of tho focal length of a lens.

Dispersion. The spectroscope. Elementary ide:1s ll,bont spcctrum mmlysis. Chromatic aberration. Achronlatism. Dispersh-e power. Achromatic lens. 'I.'he rainbow. Colonr. Colour of bodies. Mixture of colonl's. Complementary colonrs. The eye [Llltl vision, as far as optical principles are c011cernecl. Microscopes, Telescopes.

Text-book reeOlllmended :-"Natural Philosphy," Part IV., by Deselmne!.

Alexander Stewart; 3rd July, 1899. 16

5.-MAGNEl'ISlI! AND EJ~ECTRlCIl'Y.

General phenomena of magnetism. Molecular theory of magnetism. Induction, Methods of magnetization. Unit magnetic pole. Magnetic field and lines of force. Magnetic curves. Magnetic moment of (1 needle. Laws of nmgnotic action. Con!olnb's torsion balance. Method of oscillations. Mutual action of two magnets. Terrestrial maguetism .

. The earth's magnetic elements, their measurements and changes. Fnndamental phenomena of fricUona! electricity. Indnction. Laws of elcetric action. Torsion balance. Distl'ibll­

. tion of electricity on a condnetor. Faraday's iee·pail experiments. Quantity. Potential. 01pacity. Condensers. Elec· troscopes. The electrophorus_' The plate machine. The Voss and 'iVimshurst's machines. 'i'he Quadrant electrometer. Atmosphei-ic elcctricity. .

Current electricity. Volta's pile. Theory of the simple voltaic cell. Polari711.tioll. Local action. Oonstant cells. Arrangement of cells in series ~md in parallel. Jmeetromotive-force. Current. Resistance. Ohm's bw. Divided circuits.

Arrangement for maximmI! current. Laws of magnetic force due to voltaic cnrrent. Unit current. Measurement of current. Tangent, ast~.tic, and

mirror gal vanornetel'S. Chemical action of the voltaic current. Jl:lectrolysis. Laws of electrolysis. Voltameters. Storagc cells. Mea·

surement of resistance (rheostat, ,Wheatstone's bridge). ]\feasll1'e:nent of electromotive·force (e !ectrometer and high resistance galvanometer method~).·

The heating eft'ect of the current., Joule's law .. Elementary thermo-electricity. Simple thermo·celL Thermo·pile. Actions between currents. Ampere's laws. Electroma('l1cts. Electromagnetic induction. Lel1z's law. Self indnction. R~hmkorff's coil. Discharges in par~ial vacua. General n[lture of a dynamo. Clark's m[lchine .. Siemens' [lrll1ature. The Gramme dynamo. Electro·motors. The telegraph. The telephone. The microphone. Electric lighting. Arc and incandescent lamps. The phonograph, ,

The nature and extent of the knowledgc required on the ahove sections nmy be seen by reference to the following text· books :~" Electricity," by Larden ; "Lessons in Electricity and Magnetism," by SilV'anns P. Thompson; " Magnetism and Electricity," by A. W. Poyser.

6.-Bo'rAl>Y. 1. The organs of plants, their modes of growth and relations to olle another; the various forms they assume, with

the technical terms llsed in describing these. 2. An outline of'the minute structure ant! of the vital processes of plants. :~. The genem! principles of the n[ltuJ'al SYStCIU of classification, and the classes and sub· classes of this system. 4. The clmmcters of the' natural orders to which common cultivated plants and the common indigenous Victorian

plants belong. , , (The following order should be speuially studied :-Casnaril1ere, Compositre, Conifcr~e, Droseraccm, Bpacl'idcre,

Filices, Geraniacere, Goodeniacem, Graminere, Labiat,ru, Legnminos,a.l, Liliacere, Myrtacero, Orchidacem, Proteacere, .Scrofulariacere, Solal1accre, Umbelliferre, Raullnculacere, Cruciferm, Rutace~\J, Rosacere, ]\fuscL)

5. The botanical names and descriptions of snch plants, their distrihution and uses •. Text·books recommended :-OIivel"s " Lessons in E;lementary Botany" (Macmillan and 00.); Von .Mueller's " Intro·

duction to BOt[lllic Teachings in the Schools of Victoria"; E,hnonds' " Elementary Botany" (Longmal1s, Greim, and Co.); Guilfoyle's" Australian Elementary Botany" ; Dendy ami Lucas'·" Introduction to Bota.ny" (Melville, Mullen, and Slade). For more advanced students :-Bentley's "Mamml of Botany" (J. and A. Churchill); or Pmntl and Vines' " Text·book of Botany" (Swan, Sonnenschein, and Allen).

7.-GEOLOQY AND MINERALOGY.

GEOLOGY.

Geological action of the [ltmosphere, terrestrial waters, ice, the C[luses tending to modify the crust of the earth. sea, aud of plant and animal life.

Rock·fofming. minerals. ]I,;bcroscoph, characters of rocks. Eruptive (igneous) roeks. Volcanoes and volcanic v.ction. Dykes and veins. Earthquakes. Upheaval t1.ud depression. Origin of mountaiu chains. Sedimentary and frag· mental rocks, and the materials of which they are composed. Causes of ch[1ngcs in.the texture, stmcture, and composition of rocks. Metal!1orphism, local an(l region!!;!. Thc Archaean schists.

Stratilication, joints, dip and strike, onkrop, Clll'Vllture and illvertion of strata, foliation and cleavage, faults, concretions, unconformity. • •

, Ore deposits. Modes of occurrence; in the Austntliall colonies, of gold, siker, lead, copper, tiu, and other useful metals. '

The chief minerals and rocks in Victoria of economic value as buildiug stones, plastic ull1terials, fuel, &c. Methods of ohservation in the field. Geological maps and sections. Outlines of i3tl'atigraphic[l] Geology audl)a!<eontology, with special reference to formations represented ill Victoria. Text·books recommended :-James Geikie's "Outlines of Geology" (Stanfonl); Archibahl Geikie's "Outlines of

l!'ield Geology" (Macmillan); Murray's" Gcol?$y and Physical Geography of Victori[l." The student should also consult McCots "Prodromus of the Paheontology of victoria." .

JlUNERALOGY.

Forms of Minerals. Elcments of Cryst[lllography, viz., the six ~ystel1ls of erysbls, regllh1r holohedral and hemihedral forms, chief combinations, twin crystals, ZOlles, notfl.tion of forms and planes or faces according to Naumann's system, measnremen t of angles of crystals.

Physical, optical, [Iud chemical characters of minerals. The comllloner nOl1·metal1ic and metallic minerals with their blow-pipe re-actions. ,

Text·books recommended :-Collins' "First Book of :Mineralogy" and Jordan's "Elomentary Crystallography" (Murby); Krausc's" Introduction to the Study of Mineralogy" (George Robertson) will also he found useful.

8.-PllYSIOLOfJY. The structure of the human body.. • .The functions of the hody, chiefly those of digestioil, circulation, respiration, and iunerv[ltion. Pr[lctical application of Physiology with respect to diet, clothing, ventilation, exercise, and rest. The nutritive character of \'ariolls foods. Disinfection [1nd other measures for the pre,'entioll of infectious diseases. 1'ext'·books recommended :-Huxley's "Elementary Lessons in Physiology," new edition (:Macmilit11l and Co.);

'.' Mannal of Hcalth Science," by Andrcw 'i'\'ilson (Longmans and Co.); t,he Tracts issued by the' Australiull Health Society; "Hygiene," by A. New~llOhno (George Gill and Sons), Chapters VII., VIII., Xl, XII., XIII., XXIII., ,XXXVII., XXXVIIL, and XXXIX.

9.-AGRICULl'UHE. '

The examin~tion will be direct~d so as to ascertain the candidate's o.cquaintance with the general principles which influence and regnlate the seviiraJ details of Agricultural practice specified ill the Syllabus. Optional subjects are printed in italics.

Formation and ClassificMion of Soils :-The origin, forumtion, distribution, and classification of soils; chemical constitution. .

Plant Life :-The structure of plants, and the functions of their parts; chemical composition; composition of the seed; germination; the processes of growth, maturation, and reproduction. Description and cla.ssification of farlll crops. Insect and fungus pests affecting farm crops; their life histories and ~evelopment; means and method of trea tmellt. .

Cultural Operations :-Mech!l.nical conditions of soil; objects of cultivation; tillage and tilth; various operatIons, and their objects. Drainage :-The various systems; chemical and physical effects; Pl'll.ctical henefits .. Irrigati?n :-01?jects; methods of application; dramage, and other accompanying opel'ations. Rotation of OI'OPS :-CollverSlOl1 of

17 Alexander Stewart, 8m July, 1899.

plant-food; fertility and barrenness; dormant and available constituents of plant-food;. the" la:w ?f minimum,". the " mineral theory"; the principles of rotation, practical application. Manures I1nd ~Iannnng :-Prmc:ples .of mn:nu~lllg ; composition <tnd classifirotion of manures; principles regu11.ting selection and applieatlOn; grccn-manurmg, Its pnnCIples, and the crops used for the pnrpose. ..'

Farm Live Stock :-Strncture ami functions of fl1rm animals'; prinmples reglllatmg the art of hreed111g ; the uses of "pedigree" and "selection"; the general chltracteristics of the beef-l'roclllcing <tDd milk-~rodncing types of cattle; draught, riding, and driving horscs; merino anci long-woolled sheep; and 11 profitable ty pe of plg~. .

Foods and feeding :-The constitlients of food, classification of food ml1tters; thc functIOns of thc v<trIOUS con­stituents; effect of the animal constitution upon the {'csnlta of feeding; halanced mtiolls; the" alhnm.inoid ratio:' ; effects of mixing, steaming, soaking, cutting, and crushing foods; the relation of shelter, work, ,age, and uulk productIOn ~o the food requirements of animals. Silagc and systems of cnsilage; requirement of the process'; "sour" and" sweet" sll<tge; silage pits anel stacks; composition of silage; its uses ill feeding. . .

Farm Mechanics :-The farm implements and machines in ordinary lise, their obj()cts, and t.bc theory of thClr eonstrnction.

Candidates will also be expected to show some knowledgc of one of the f?llowing opt.iollal subjects. _ . . Farm BlIi/din{!8.-System of arrangement and general plan of constructlOn. Arbo1"1cu/tlt1'e.-ComhtlOns regula~mg

the selection and growth of timber for commercial and economical purposes. Farm Economic8.-Costs of productIOn; labour; wages, &c. Dairy Mallugement.-The treatment of milk and cream; huttcr and cheese making. POllltry Man­ugement.-Various breeds; origi,{,' breeding, feeding, and management. Hop, Vine, Wid Fnlit Pl'owinll.--;-'J:he grow~ng, (lrying, p<tckillg, tinning, can11ino-, rmd bottling of fruit; culture of hops n,nd vines; propesscs 1tl beer, wmc, and Cider making. Bee Afuna!le7nent.-Ch~rllcter and lmhits of bees; mallipnla.tio11 <tllll treatmcnt. Ol(ltl~re qj' ExoticB.-General infornmtion as to semi-tropical, oil-yielclin!!;, fibre-yielding, medicinal, <tnd scent ph,nts.

Text-books recommcndcd-1. Dr. Fream's "Elements of Agriculture," John Murray. 2. Prof. Wrightson's" Principles of Agricultural Practice," Chapman l111cl Hall. ~. Jolmston and C'tm~ron's "Elements of Agricultural Chemistry and Geology," Blaekwood and Sons.

Reference books reeommencled-1. Morton's "Handbooks of the Farm," Vinton and Co. 2. "Bell's Agricultural Series," Geo. Bell and·SollS. 3. Maedonald's edition, "Book of the Fl1nn," \V. Blackwood and Sons.

JAMES BAGGE, Secretary.

263. By the Chairman.-Is Mr. Gamble nil expert ?-I have not the appointment, of the examiners ~all I heard ubont Mr. Gamble was that Lis father was a farmer.

261. By Afr. Potts.-How long is it since this syllo.bns was framed ?-I eould IIOt say; I will aseertai!l.

'['lte witness witlub·ew.

Adjourned to PridaJ/ next, at Three o'clock.

FRIDAY, 7TH JULY, 1899.

Present: -THEODORE FINK, Esq., M.P., in the Chair;

J. G. Barrett, Esq., I J. H. MacFarland, Esq., LL.D., H. C. Jenkins, Esq., F. W. Poolman, Esq., J.P., C. R. Long, Esq., M.A., H. W. Potts, Esq., J.P., F.C.S.

Thomas CheITY, M.D., M.S., sworn and examined.

265. By the Chairman.- What are you ?-DemoDstrator and Assistant Lecturer in Pathology at tho :Nlelbonrne UniveTsity; that includes bacteriology. •

266. By ph. Potts.-Yon have had some experience outside the colony in bacteriology?-Yes; I have studied iu the 8ellool8 in Great Britain, chiefly London, Cambridge, Hud A.berdeen.

267.' A part from its pt~thological aspect, yon have taken an active interest in the industrial phase of bacteriology?--Yes.

268. Yon have made n special study of fermentations in relation to snch processes ns are needed in the preparation of beel's, wlnes, hread, blltt;er, cheeso, leather, tobacco, vinegar, sugar, and other products? -Yes; I have a theOl'etical knowledge of I.he special fermentations that go on in all of them, and I have had practical experien~e in most of them.

269. Yon baye also conducted n number of investigations in relation to diseases of stock, snch as tnherClllosis, anthrax, actir)omycosis, and fluke ?-Yes.

270. YOll have also condncted llllCl are at present cngaged in investigating certain bacteriological conditions associated with onr dairying industry 1-Yes.

271. III Jour opinion, is Pasteurizat.ion essential to the maintenance of a hig-h standard of qunlity (l,nd uniformit.y in the manufacture of onr butt-er ?-Yes, under existing conditions. It is possihle to get cOlldiLions theoretically under whieh we would be able to dispense witil it ; but there is no immediate probability of onr attaining them in practice.

272. Do you conliider it requisite to distribl1te pnre cnltures to our butter factories to carry out an effecti va system of manufactnre ?-Yes, the .1 istrihlltioll of pure cnl tures would insure uni formi t.y in the quality of the bntter; would raise a low grade butter up to a leyel with the highest grades, amI would il11p1'o\'e the keeping quality of the butter.

273. In view cif this opinion, is it absolutely essential that the manufacturer or factory manager should possess It know Ic(lge of bacteriology in a scientific or theo'retical as well as in its practical seuse r­Yea, I think he shoul(l.

274. I s it possi ble to ~et.ermine the keeping qualit,y of butt,er and its characteristics by bacterio­logical methods'! -Ally butter whieh bas gone wroug from any eause reqnires, llrst of all, to be investigated by bactcriological methods, in orelct' to arrive fit some conclusion as to the cause of its fn:iling to keep properly. .

.275. That is through examination of the source of supply, to discover the eanse of contamination? -Yes.

- 276. It is possible to din.gllose or discover the various faul ts our dairy products possess by bacterio-logical methods, and thus forniulate 80nnd evidence to trace their cause and effect 1-Yes.

5703. 0

T. Cherry. :M.D., ~I S.! nh July, 1399. 18

277. Can you, by this scientific method, detect the existence of pathogenic germ life at our ports of shipment ?-If the food products were extensively contamillntcd hy pathogenic or Jisease-producing germs they conld be deteetell ; if they were present in only slInll lIumber" the deleetion, of course, would be mllch more difficult; but still it is only a qnestion of patience and perseverance cveH then to SeClll'e the necessary evidence.

278. Will not lmeteriological in vest,igations Le as necessary in the deyelopmen t of our wine, tobar-co, sugar, fl'llit, and leather industries 1 think in all those cases bnctel':olbgy forms the groundwork whieh is necessary for t.heir scientific contl'ol.

279. Hence, with greater commcrcial results?- Yes, 280, Seeing that bacteriology exercises snch all importn,nl influence in a number of Ollr most profit­

able industries, do yon favour Ihe establishment of a central bacteriological instil,ute ?-Yes, I think it is absoilltely"'necessn,ry ill the estaLlisluncllt of allY complete system of technical education.

281. At this bacteriologicnl institnte, would 'y0l1 rcccmrnend provision being made to edllcnte t0flchel's fllI"l ot.hers a~"ociated with those various illdustries in the varions branches of Lacteriology 7-Yes; such men as teachers to carry the illstruction to lo\ver sehools, and Ihe managers of huge fac'tories, and scientific men generally.

282. Such an institute would form an important Lranch of the educatiollal work associated with a Chair of ,Ruml Economy Itt the Ulliversit,y, if sucil a Chair were established ?-It could be carried on in connexiull with that, but it, conld bc independent-it woult! have no necessfLl'Y connexion, Probably the professor of snch an institute would find he had enongh to tleyote the \yhole of his time to.

283. Bat the two conlcl be nlltler the eontrol ot the one universit.y?-Yes, aUlI when carried on the two w(mld interlock eompletely.

284, By the Chai1'man.-Sbould it be responsible to univel'sity government ?-That is Ii matter of detaiL

286, By 11£1'. Potts,-This institute would also form the central authority to coml11ct, original research in the numerous problems coutinqal1y presenting t.hemselves, snch as tiek and new diseases in stock ?-YeE', it shoulll be the recognised authority for all that kiwI of work.

286, You consider by this means of technical eUllcation facilities wonld be provided thai would be likely to provide sOllnt! pmct,ieal tieyelopment, of olll'intiust.ries, with commerc,ial ad vantages 1-Yes. I think the eOl11mercialad vantages woultl be manifest immediately after the establishment of sllch an illstitute. '

287, Do you consider that lessons 011 the rudiment,s of bact;eriology, intelligibly gh'en, would he ad vantngeons to the child ron attenJing the' higher classes of the State schools ?-Yes, '1 think fot, anything like a complete system there should be, first of all, elemeutary instr.t1ction of that sort givell in the ~tate schools, incol'pomtetl with leseons on rural eCOllomy, For iusta!lce, it woul<! be to leach children the differcnce bet.ween e1ean milkiug n.utl dirty milking of cows. The second step to have classes fur workmen and operatives in variuns factories olilines somctlliug similar to the WOl'kiug :M('n'~ College nt present-to inellld'C Loth schools connected with variollS tIll1UUfactlll'es and nl;;o schools more intimately associated with the ngrienltlll'111 industry-titen, filially, you reqllil'e It bacteriological institnte fOI' the trailling of the teachers all,l for tbe carryillg ont ot original invest.igatiolls.

288, -vVith the develupmcut tlmt has taken place in artificial m:LllHreS yon would consitlel' bacteriology, a necessary adjunct to I.he tcaehing at ~lIIy llgricultnml college ?-Yes. Its direct importllilce is increasing every year. Hetently it hus been shown that many mauliI'es owe their fertiliziw! properties not so much to the chemienl Iwtion of their constituents,' as to the bacteria that they carry with them,

289. By D1', 11£acPa1'Zan(Z.-Have yOIl formed any cOllllected phtll as to the nature of your investiga­tions at home ?-I am going horne c.,;pccinl J)' to inquire into recent developments in t,he technical applications of bllcteriology,

290, On YOllr return YOll will be prepared to give us the tenent of YOllr experiellce dnring the months yon are ill Enrope?-Yes, I thillk so.

291. By l~b .. Jenkins.-Wben you mention m:1l1llfCS you refer to the German developmellts?-Yes; in which it has been shown thnt \'lIriOllS plants-snch :ts peas and beans n,1Il1 other leg:uminosn,-carl'Y with them Lacteria, which eOuvert the inorganic constitnents of the soil and the nitrogen of the atmosphere into BllCh chemical combinations that the plaut;.; are able to fltisimilate them. '

292. I-lave yon thonght_as to the amollnt of .instmct,ion that conld be give!i on the subject in State schools ?-I do not thin k any sepltrate lessons could be given; but the main facts Il"itlt regard to the importanco of bacterin, hoth with regard to the henlth of hmnanbeings and of cattle, and the part they play in nil processes of fermentation and Jecoll1position, <::0111<1 be iucorporatetl in lessons on rural economy to the children. -- 293. Yon woul.'! gi \'e them II few fuudamental notions on certain phcllomena ?-Yes.

294. By 11£10. Long.- IVonltl yon give those through reading lessons, or should they be given as oral lessons or ohject lessons-would it be safe for teachers to endeavoul' to impart this knowledge orally? -I think lessons c!r:nvn up Ly pcople who knew whut they were talking ILbo11t would be beLter,_

295. 1t woultl be pare of the rending in the upper school?- Ye~s. 296. Yon would suggest thn,t persons should be especially equipped.to gire this instruction as they

give a cOllrse of bcienee ?-It would be possible to take it, as a branch-cf science. I see no reason why a teaeher should not know the elementary facts with regard to bacteriology in the same way as he Illay know the elel1lcntl1,ry facis in regnnl to llIttnml philosophy.

297. By Mr, Jenlii'll.o.-In the technicnl schools that you mentioned, woult! you consider it Letter to tench the facts connected lI'ilh bacteriology as It specht! subject" or in coltuexion wit,ll a general conrse of biology ?-l thillk it ;;bould bo tnllght ill two ways-in eonnexion witb It ~general eourse of Liolugy, but also I think chiefly in cOllllexiou with the special tr'tdes for which the youths were prepal'1ng themselves. For instance, take the, cas:') oE jam mnnufaet.uring-the operatives might he taught what change take;; place in regnrd to bacteriological life dnriug the process of boiling; then wlmt dnngers there are of having their prodnct contaminated with bncteria dming the subseqnent pro()esses, tllat is, tIle processes whieh go qn frolll the time 'the jam leaye~ the pan 1111 til it is sldely sealed up in the bottles.

298. You wOllld make a great deal of ~his bacteriological instruction into the fOI:m of a practical lessoll ?-I think it should he essentially pmct,ical lessons in classes, on a level with the instruction given

19 T. Cherry. ;\1. D .• ~l. S .• 7th July. 1899.

in the ,"-orkillg 1\fen's College. Demonstrations might bo fet ont of wlmt it.·iR llOcPsfury to do in order to completely sterilize any vessel or I1ny artic'e of food; allt! it mighr.lllso Le sho\\l1 tbat by rareless expoH1re to the air, or exposure to the dust, or if dirt of any kind f:ame in coulnet wilh materials that ,\'ere being worked up, some nndesirable proc('ss would be practically ccrtain to take place,

299. Is there a Chllir of Biology at the present moment at the University but not of rural economv.

300. By the Cha.irman.-What su~jects would snch a Chair include ?~The practicc varies iu different universities. In Edinburgh, 1 believe, the professor is calle(l thc professor of ugriculture; in Durlutm they have a professor of agriculture and forestry, a lecturer on agriculture, a lecturer on veteri­nary anatomy and farm hygiene, and 1m assistant lecturcr on ngriculture. Then therc is u somewhat similar series of offices in cOlmexion with the Yorkshire College at Lecds ; OliO of the ccnstituents or thc Victoriu University, Oxford, has a Chair of Rllral Economy, and in Cambridge it is the Chair of Agriculture.

301. By Afr. Potts.-They are just c~tabJishilJg it now ?-Yes; thero is ulso a Chait· of Agriculture at N ort.h Wales ..

302. By the Cltairman.-Do I understaBd YOll are willing to assist the Commission by letting us have a report on your work 7-Yes, I will be q nite willing to modify my arrangements whcn in England and in Europe, in order to fall in with any special line of research that the Commission might wish me to undertake.

do so.

303. 304.

How long: do you intend to be away ?-Until the end (\f February-about seven months. By Mr. Polls.-Do you pl'Opose to visit America ?-1 have not decided, but I am prepared to

305. By Mr. Long.-Will you note carefully what they ean. do in primary schools in connexion with this subjeet while on your travels ?-I shall be glad to do so. With regard to the m~nnfacturing industries 1 tbink that special stress should be laid upon tanning, which seems to me to bc essentially an Austrnlian industry, ane! which involves bacterial processes in every stage of the process of mannfacture, and, moreover, those bacterial processes have never yet been completely worked onto 'Ve have sulficient evidcnce that a great deal of the failure with regard to the ,manufacture of leat,her is due to undesirable bacteria getting into t.he tan pits and other places, but the preeise met,bods by which these can be controlled have not yet been establishetl. In connexion with that there is also the questioll of exportation of wattle bark in the form (,f extract. I am told a great deal of trouble is encountered by shippers on account of certain fermentation that takes plaee during the voyage.

306. By Af1'. Jenkins.-'l'hese are subjects that would be better studied in the colony than elsewhere? -Yes, we have the material bere-the special baeteriological couditions which are probably indigenolls to the place. That subject, along with t.he manu!ncture of beet sngar and tobaccoes, opens up a wide field for invesLigatioll, which has hartlly yet heen touched ou.

307. By tlte Cltail"man.-Do yon know enough of the tobaceo or beet-Sligar indnstries here to say whether thcy are carricd 011 in' the light of modern de.elopments of science ?-No. 1 havc no immcdiate direct knowledge on the subject; but recently a patent has been granted to n man in GermallY by whie!! he claims to be able to turn the inferior Germau tobaccoes iuto first-class 'West Indian leaf, by fermenting them with certain microbes.

301'. By A{1'. Jenld,ns.-Tbe Germal1s have beeu very stleeessf111 in growing coffee. hy lllenus of special bacteriological Illannres in Central Africa ?-I haye heard that they have made a sllccess of it there; lmt I canllot give allY special particular;,. As to tbe export of meat and other produets, the conditions of Sllccess are controlled essentia!!y by bacteriological eomlitions.

809. By the Chaitrrnan.-Can it be said that, they are thorollghly understood in relation to the export of meat now ?-I think it has beeu pretty definitely settled what conditions have to be flllfilled to determine whether you should export meat chilled or frozen; that. is, the conditions under which it is neCeSSHl'Y to resort to freezing rather than chilling. The conditions under which fresh fruit, apples and other things, go wrong are quite imperfectly understood.

310. Does tbat apply to getting them ready for shipment, or the shipment itself ?-Chiefly tbe temperatlll'e under which it .is necessary to carry them on board ship.

The witness withdrew.

Samuel J. Swindley, sworn and exam.ined.

311. By tlte Chairrnan.-What are you ?-Inspector of schools and a member of tbe Boan[ of Exuminers.

I 312. On the subject of Kindergarten, I understand you have referred in youI' annual reports to the necessity of special infant teaching ?-Yes. 1 have not dwelt so lll11eh upon tite necessity of Kinder­garten llS upon the necessity for really skilled, thoronghly-tminetl infant mistresses to take ebarge of our infant departments. . .

3l3. Do yon consider that in the work of infant teaching, apart from kindergarten, there is a laek of sufficient method or skill in teaching? -1 should put it this way: that we have not at present suffieient provision for a supply of thoronghly-qualified experienced infant mistresses. Mueh of the teaching in the infant schools is good, but in the absence of it thoroughly experienced and well-trained mistress thc classes are apt to ·degenerate into isol.ated units, without any wel!-eonnected scheme of instrl1ct.ion pervading the infant l;chool as a whole.' I Hill speaking of the necessity for a full supply of teachers qualified to take the direction and charge of a large infant {{epartment.

31'L By Mr. Jel1kins.-=Head mistrcsses rather than assistants ?-Yes. 815. By tlte Cltairman.-What is your district ?-The Metropolitan No.4. It includes Melbourne

proper, Carlton, West Melboume, and the schools along the North-Eastern line as far as Broadfonl. Then it extends over to Lancefield, and comes back nlollg the La.ncefield. and Monnt Alexnnder-road to 1\felbonrne.

316. What is the reason of this deficiency of iufant mistresses ?-Tbe reason is this-=the Public Service Act provides for the promotion of female teachers without their necessarily possessing the

cz

S. J: SwindJey, 7th July, 18\)9.'

qualification for the charge of large infant 8chools-I mean all the qualific~~ions. They may be skillc(l teachers, good general teachers, but they may not have had special training and special experience in infant school work.. .

317. YOll regard that as very important ?-I do. 318. By Mr. Jenkins.-Yoli regard the work as being quite different in its scope and character

from the work in the npper schools ?-1 consider an illfant-school mistress requires to possess special quali­fications for the management and instruction of an inl'unl; school amI the training of the young teachers under her direction.

319. Her position as an educationalist is quite as higll as if she were teltching older girls ?-Yery nearly. "Ve have not separate girls' schools here; the head IIlaster is head of the whole schooL

320. By the Chairman.-Practically there is a lack of efficient infallt teaching. What is the reason of that, is it the absence of a training-S,chool ?-I have already indicated thc reasoll. 1 should go on to say that we have not so far prescribed a special qnalification for infant miSlresses. They pass the same examinations as teachers of the ordinary classes.

, 321. It is a very cast-iron system, iB it not?- I shonld not like to say that. With reference to my relImrks about the Public Service Act, just before that Act was i!{trodllced by the Service Ministry the .Minister of Education of the day appointed a Bonnl, consisting of the secreta!'y, the snperintelldent of the training college, Mr. Gladmall, and allother member, 1 am not quite sure who it was, to report on the Lest meallS of classifying and dealing with thc uppointmellt alld promotion of teachers. It did so report, and .it recommended the appointment of an Appointment Committee, I think it termcu it, with certain discre­tionary powers. When the Government took up the qnestiolJ of the classification of the ~~nhlie Service as a whole, it determined that if the Goverument as a, whole relinquished its patronage it would not give it to allY other body, and therefore an alltollmtie scheme must be ueyised. That resulted in the appointment of the Board of Classifiers, and the designiug of a classified roll which works, you may say, automatically. '

, 322. And puts people in charge of infant classes who are not specially qnalified to teach them ?-It may lead to that. It may lead to the appointment of a teacher, as first female assistant, to take ch!1rge of an infant school who has been perhnps largely engaged teaching classes in a rni:l(ed school.

323. In order to !tvoid the Scylla of political patronage they have got into the Charybdis of wooden teaching ?-Into a too rigid system of appointment I shOl1ldSlLy. The Department now has a proposal before it to remedy that. . '

. 324. Is that in the direction of giving the Department a free h:pld to appoint people to special pOSitions ?-No, it is mther to prescribe in the Act the qualifications of an illfltllt mistress~){'hat qualifica­tions she mllst possess before any female teacher is appointed to a position in which she 'Will have to exereise those functions. _

325. It will be an altered system of classification '(--No; but it will aim at securing that no one shall receive the appointment of jnfant mistress unless she hus shown j,hat she has aptitude for infant teaching, and has passed the prescribed exmninatioll in infant-school management nntl work. -

326. Could such a system becul'ried ont withont a Traiuing College; do YOll think I) mere examina­tion wOlllu be sufficient ?-I think we have teachers who sho\\' mnch general skill awl aptitude ill teo.ching, and if we preseribe the qualifications· they will tnke care to secure them by study of proper text-books, and using al·l the means within their power to obtain the requisite skill.

327. By Mr. Long.-Wonld you ,propose any lowering of the stalldnrd of general work ill, regard to those infant mistresses if they possess those other qualifications ?-1 think not. I t,hink they should be educated women, women of ability. 'Ve have slich women in the serviee. Theyean pass the ordinary examination, and securE) th'e infant:'school qnalification as well, hut t.hat point should b,e considered, whether it wpuld be i~posing too much UP0I! theIIl.

328~ By the CAairman-To what number of schools would you apply this tol-To all teachers who expect to be promoted to the fourth class, that is, the fomth class of teachers. They are classified in seven or eight classes, ~n~ before II female teacher is eligible for promotion to the fourth class she should possess the qualilicatiolls to take charge of an infant class.

329. By ,Mr. BCl1'1·ett.-III addition to the other qualifications:{ -Yes. 330. By the Chairman.-What is th!'ll)epar~J;llent's e~pl'lriel1ce of Kindergarten w 11011 it wa's intro­

duced ? - When it was introdneed 1 was engaged in what is blOwn us examiner's work. I was engaged in the indoor side of inspection, perusing the inspectol's' reports, so that 1 diu not see the Kindergarten work at its introduction. When I resnrned out.door'inspect,loil my impression was that the Kindergarten work HICIl peing done wi!-s I~.ot of very gre~tv,alnp:

33L Wus t.ltat shortly before il; was discontinued ?-Yes, in 1891. 332. Arp y.ou l'efipcting upon the syst~m, or npop the sl;yls ?-I am spen,king ill re!erellee to the

Kindergarte)l wpr~ that W[~S beil}g c10lle in lily distr~ct'7 I eaunot speak f,or other djsti'iel i? [rho objection t~at 1 sa\v to it )V~s this: in the abse~ce of' a thqrollghly qualified !l'l'a!l~ mistress the Kin(lergarten work that was done became a mere adjunct, in some caseS a mere veneei', and very fmdty mctho.ls or infant t,eaching might go Ol~ i11 ,n schqol whife you 'y-ere'introducing tllO lfinllergarten work. I considered the besl; thing to be done wl;ts tt? pnt t}le il!fal!t s,cl}ool? on ~ tl!orollghly good foundation before introduciI!g the Kindergarten. " . , .

333. If YOll dill so, part of the qU,!!otific,atioll ?f those ,mistl'esses would he the Kindergarten method? -, Yes, u~,questiomtbly.

334. W oulll you ll1~ke it essE;;ntial t'!J.~t l!ll your illfqnt !!listresses of the fomth class shouhl ~horoughly understand the Kimlel'gartell methods?-Yes, we should Iilake it ::tn essential part of their qualification !tS infan.t misf,ressea. '.

335. Wlmt at,eps wonli.! yO\} t!~ke in order to e,fJ'e!-\t tlln,t ? -The s.teps that ;Ve IWV0 in view with the female teacbers who 'hereafter go into training, a11d wish to do vote thelpselves to infant wOl'k are that they sh,all be ajfordc,d special faci.Jities in the Training ~ollege for aeq,uiring knowledge o! th,e :J{indergart.ep system. . _ '

336, That assnmes the existence of a Training College ?-Y (lS. -

387. W Ol)f,d it al~o asslime tlt~ pt;lg§lge::r~nt of tho!,ongttly qlt-:!i~e[l e~p'ert ?rg~!liz~rs all(~ instru!l~o! ? -Such Itn· organizer and instructor would be reguired for a time certainly. '

21 S. J. Swilldley, nh July, 11100.

338. Is it your opinion that the introduction of the Kindergarten nnder any other conditions would be a veneer, as you term it ?-That is looking at the matter from a different point of view. Many of the existing teachers :ire very skilful and vcry good, and I. am sure -wiII aCtlllire a knowledge of Kindergarten quite sufficient to enable them to carry out the work efficiently, withollt its being necessary for them to go to the Train'ing College.

339. You are not speaking of the teachers as a whole. Would it be correct to say that t.he teachers as a whole would have to acquire the methods-that a large nnmber of them would have to acqmre it by instruction though others, more gifted, would acquil'e it without instruction ?-You are speaking of the teachers already in the schools?

340. Yes ?-~ome of 'those in charge of infant school departments already have a considerable knowledge of Kindergarten work alld Kindergarten methods, ami tlley are carrying ont Kindergarten occu­pations and Kindergarten work to a ccrtaiu extent. Others know very little of the system, and are not doing anything at present, but I believe that nearly all of those in charge of infant departments will be able to acqilire a good practical knowledge of the work wii,hont special iilsti'uction, but we must afford them facilities-allow them to visit ot,ber schools, let them attend Icct11l'es by a Kindergarten instru?tor on Saturday mornings; in faet" afford them all tho facilities in ollr power to supplement what they can do by theil' own individual effort ahd study.

341. By .Mr. Jenki1~s.-At the present moment they are not, able to teach ?-A considerable number of them are. Some of them ,are carrying out the Ki,ndergarten system to a very considerable extent.

342. By Mr. Poolman.-Those who have had previous help from the Training College ?-No, there was no special help given by the College when it, was open, before Mrs. Goulden gave lectures.

343. Those who have been under Mrs, Goulden's tuitiou are competent to carryon the work of the Kindergarten ?-Not mei'ely those.

844. JJy the Chairman.-Are you speakihg of yonI' own district now, or generally ?-I am speaking of what I should infer from my, knowledge of my own district and teachers generally.

345. Yonr district is one of the metropolibn districts ?-Yes. " , , 346. Coutailiiilg it cOD:lparatively large number of teachers who had the benefit of ~killed instructors?

-Mally of those who al'e P,ow ihfaut mistresses in my district were in the eountryat the time. Possibly they did not attend eithet' ~nil. Goulden's or Hie otlier Kindergarten teachers' lessons, and see their wol·k.

347. Have they studied it miller anyone at all ?-I eaunot say as to that. 1. know some of them attenuecl Mrs. Goulden's lectures, aiidobhers may Have scen the lessou8 given by the teachers who were employed at the time.

348: I have spoken to onc or two, and they tell me YOlt eOllld not grasp it thoroughly Hitless yon went liildor somebody who conill teach it ?-I do not agree with that. I think the text-hooks on the subject ure 80 thoroughly !1nd so ably written that a person who Ims general ~kill in teaehing clln acquire It competent knowledge of Kindergarten O\'en without attending lectures by a teacher. '

349. What do ),011 think of the lnoposal to api)oint an organizer ?-I think it is valuable, ami generally the teacilel'S, would flnd it very useful, if not neeessary, to got such help.

850. Do YOli t.hink an export orgauizel' and instructor should be part of the staff of a Training College? -fIe should instruct therc, but not necessarily be confined to teacliirig there.

351. By Mr. Long,-Yon remember the approved courses prepared towards the beginning of this year ?-I do. -

352. Do yon thiuk the circular cohtaining thc approved courses, as far as it referred to Kinder­garten, prescribed work that a teacher cotild not be cxpeeted to do in a satisfactory way ?-I think not. I think the majority ot tbem can take up portions of that work anddo it satisfactorily. A year or two ago I seut out a cireular 1,0 the t(ja~hers in my distriet, drawing attention to the advisability of intro­ducing more varied work in the infant schools, alld silggesting certaiil subjects that were named in the English code as pra~ticable for infant schools, and lessons in those subjeCts are being given generally in the large]' infant ,schools. ,

353. JJy N1'. Jenkin,~.,-You have really prepared your district somewhat beyond other districts ?­I should not like to say that. The otliel' inspectors Have been exerl,ing their influence to secure Kinder­garten work beHlg dOlle, and teaching on Kindergarten lines. For instance, at one of the last examinations of a school, I found the illfailt-mistress had been teitt;hing the children to estimate length and weight, and, in consequence, even the young children IlUd!1 very intelligent knowledge of meaSllI'emcnt.

354. Bya.e Chairman.-UIlller whose tuitioli were they?-Under an infant mistress who has not had allY special training !IS far as I am aware. ,

355. I saw a school of 900 children tile other day; how many pupil teachers and monitors would that have? -A school of 700 has ten pupil teachets and three monitors. A school of 900 will have thirteen phpil teachers and fonr monitors.

356. There is a school of 1,800 with twenty pupil teachers and four monitors: how many of those iilfant children wiil be under pupil teachers and monitor;:; ?-In a school of 1,300 we should estimate the infants at about 400. To that school I should expeet two of the assistants to be assigned; that is the rule in my district.

357. Here is !1 ease 9f twenty pupil teaehers and four mouitors : woultl it not be a fact that a great nnmber of the infants would be untler their tnition ?-The infant divisions wonld larO'ely have to be taught by monitors and pupil teaehers. b

358. Are monitors re!11ly !it to teach anybody ?-Unql1estiollably, qur monitors are. 359. Are the monitors and pupil teachers the closs of persons in whom we would find any adequate

capacity to discharge ,the du ties that you would I ike to have discharged by infant teaohers ?-They are not fitted to take iwlependent charge, most of them, but they are fitted to teach divisions uncler the direction of a competent infant mistress.

360. Would not the 400 children get Kindergarten instruction very largely from those pll pil teaehers and monitors-do not a large part of those children, who are necessarily under the instrnction of those pupil-teachers and monitors, get their Kindergarten instruction, sneh as they do get, frqm those pupil teachers and monitors ?-W e expect the Kindergarten work to be given by the most experieneed teacher in the infant school, therefore the lesso,l1s should be, h1rgeJy given, and I believe, as a matter of faet, are largely given by the assistant or assistants in charge, bnt they are sometimes intrusted to juniol' teachers who are not really qualified to them.

S. J. Swindle.'" 7th ,I uly, 1809, 22

361. AI'e they not sometimes intrusted to pupillencher;:, and sometime" to m:milors ?-I shonld say they arc sometirn:ls intrusted ro pupil leacbers and IllOnitors, ' ,

362. They are not the class of .instrnetors that yOIl woultl like to see ?-A pllpil teacher mn.y he, fully equal to ltn ltssistltllt. Our monitors arc now being appointed at the fi'ieof sevellteen. In Melbourne at, Ule last exltllliuation, in 1~9S, the ltverage age of the,monitors appointed was seventeen, and th"y mnst ,have passed in the highest class in the State schools, i,e" have passed fully in 6th class work. The !tverage ?ge or the mouitors at a scilo:>ll iuspectel this yeltr was nineteen, The average age of the pupil teachers IS over t'Yenty, I should think. :Y 011 Illust remem ber that in Frauce (according to the latest information I have) they leave the college at twenty, so thntwhen you speak ,of monitors lind pupil teachers in Victoria you are speaking of a somewhat different class of people from monitors and pllpil teachers at home.

363. What college do they leaye ?-In France, according to }fatthelV Arnoill's report, which is rather old now, about firteen year3 old, the students entered the Tntining College aL fourteen antl left at twenty.

, 364. Wh'en they went in at fourteen they hau done a great deal of severe work, more than would be done in either England or Ausl,ralia by boys of fonrteen ?-1 am not qnite sllre what t.heir ql1alifications are at en trance.

365, Is not a certificate of competency compulsory in England and optional here ?-I want to make this perfectly clear, that when you speak of' the pupil-Leaeher system ill Victoria you are speaking of a somewhat different thing from t,he pnpil.te!telwl' system in Englrllld, in this sense, that the pupil teachers cuteroll their COllrse here with mther,higher attainments, and t.hey are old'cr. They begin their course at a greater age, with a better educat,iull. "

1 366. By J1fr. Jenlcins.-Tho,t etlucation is stopped at the 6th class of the State scilool with It pupil teacher or monit.or ?-I say that before beillg eligible for (tppointment as a monitor a calldidate must have passe~l flllly in tile work of the fithclass, and if there is more tban one eligible candidate he mllst snbmit to It compelitiYe examination,

, 367. A pnpil teacher in England must pnes an equivalent examinati.on ?-The examination is very nearly erJual to ours but not quite, and, according to Sir Evelyn Oakley, tbere is !1 deartJl of candidates; cOllseqnently I infer they arc ebligell to relrtx the rnle as t.o t,be minimum ago being fourteen, whereas our candidates do not get appointed liS a rule unt,il they are seventeen, Therefore they ltre most distinctly snperiol' to the English pn pil teachers. '

3G8. You admit that special orgf11lizers allt! instl'llCtors wonld I)) a'h'Lmble ? - Yea, 369. A lftrge nnmber of the infants in Lig scho~ls are under pl1pil tenchers :tnd monitors ?-Yes, in

S Il b-char"e. :37'0. Can YOll say that~ 1l0Lwithstallding they are in suL-c1mr::re; so far as Kinderg!lrLen methods nre

COIICel'lIell,. htrge numbers of inliHlts are beiug instmcted by competent infant instl'llctoi'5 I-Some of the pupil tenchers are quite equal to assistn.nts; they are 24 01' 25 years ot age.

3il. That is not wltat r menu. You say this method of,instt'uctioll should be Hilder skilled teachers ?--Tltere should he [l, skilled iufant, mistress at the head" , ;.liZ. X ow yo:t say not only can an !tvemge intelligent teuchet' ,pick up t,nose ll}()titolls without an

organizer and instl'llCter, bnt you say a pupil teacher ltllllmonitor can as well ?-No. I aSSUllle the infant inistrcss will herself be an instructress !wd guide to the pllpiLteaehers aud mouitord under herin Kinder­garten methods, so far as they canllot get instruction elsewhere.

373. ',,"onld. such a system be satisfactory in teaehing arit.hmetic or sl1ch things, or would you expect tbat Lefore It teacher took charge of a claso in that sort. of thing he sho,uld h[LYe proper qualifi. cations for Leaching, leaving it for the head teacher to see Lhat he did teach, not Flmt,he was competent to t.t'[l(;h ? ~ldo not qllite follow the question. ,_

374, By:Afr. Long,-Will you inform ns how the infant-room mistresil <103S instruct the young people nnder her ,in all the s,lbjecls, not alone Kindergarten ?-IYhen a monitor is appointed he is put along wit.h a compe~ellt tencher to begin his work. Geuerally he is sent to an infant sehool, and there, at first., he largely looks Oil. He is given !'Ouline work to do, a III I the simplest work- work that !tlly

illt.elligoltt YOllLh of sixteen or seventeen should be r..ble to do, from Lhe knowledge of teaching he has :LcquireJ in passing through his schooL Then the infant mistress, if she is doing hOI' work properly, lets tbi~ probationer look 011 wbile she gi ves lesson;:, allll then lets him attompt them himself,

375. By the Chairman.-What hat! yon in yOllt' mind when yon wrote this ill 1894-" Nevertheless f'e\'eral of the matters previously t.ouched npon with I'espect to the management of our infant schools still await attention, The point, however, upon which I should 011 this occasion desire to dwell is the training of the pupil teachers. There is, perhaps, no poiHt of greater moment in the organiz!ttion of large schools, nnd tlone in which the per~ollltl iutillonce of I,he held t,eacher may make itself more apparent niH! more boltolidally rolt," Thon in the same report., lltHler t.he \wlt,1 of "Instruction," you 8!ty-" Instead of imparting a love of school work, and giving the cbildren /1 lasting malltal "timillns, this meelmnical teaching, I hongh it may communicate some knowledge, cre'ltcs It dist,ast.o for school life," Consideri ng thut wilh the report YOIl sent in Inst year, in which YOI1 say-" It not lIttl't'(lqllently happens thrtt, when an infant mistress i~ reqnired in it large S011001, tbe t.eo.eherappoitttecl h"8 not all the (I'Hdifications for the position. There is a sllpera,J~iJlll!:l1lCC of teachers who clln'l!llllertake the clllLrge of the intermediate clnsses-a lack of those thoroughly competent to manage allll instruct. infallt schools on the one hand, and senior classes (the 5th amI 6th elasses) on the otl1er"?-I lmve already l'efol'l'cd to thflt as showing the for an aitel'l1tion in the PuuIic Service Act.

, 376, In the direction of getting with certaillty high-class infant .teachcrs ?-¥ os. That is the bcle at the prescnt time. (

3n, KOLwithstantiiug t.hat, do yon say that as a whole no(; only t,he infnut teachers bllt the pnpil teachers amI nlOnitors ean administer Kindergarten methods intelligently without definite instrllct.ion ?-I thiuk uot. '

378, And nrc the school hours of teaching the time and the occasion for imparting that definite instrllction to the jnuior tcachers ?~The sehool is Ihe training place for such instrnction.

379. In the sense of carrying ont pril1('ip!e~ len,med somewhere else, or would yon take a pupil teacher into a school !tr,d teach him tltet'e ?-Onc part of the training of a pupil teacher is acquiring a knowledge of pmctic!tl teaching, Itnd in that he is examined every year by the inspector. 'He must pass in that to oLtain his promotion. '

23 S. J. Swindley, 7th July, 1899.

380. You have dmwl1 attention to the defects in teaching in your report ?-Yes. 381. By Mr. Jenlcins.- With certain subjects there is a want of sutisractory mcthod ill teaching

them. We are dealiuO' with a subject that mnst be [eos wooden in its method of teaching than arithmetic or grnmmaJ'. The p~illt is, can it be taught; if the defects exist with slIbjecls ,as easy as arithmetic or grammar, those defects will be more manifest when you come to teach Kindergarten ?-Those defects arc not universal. I do not mean it to be understood that those defects are universal. I mean that they are to be met with in a certain proportion of the schools, and a certain amount of the t<>aching. That is always to be understood with inspcctors' general reports on the school". .

382. The mechanical nature of the teaching is more or less general? -Mechanical te!lclllng is to be met with everywhere.

383. 'l'he teaching in general is more mechanical than you would like it to be ?-I ShOll ld prefer to say that 1 more frequently meet with mechanical teaching than one ought t,o mcet wiLh it.

384. By the Chc6irman.-Would yon say there is a supembund[1,IICe of teachers able to conduct inter­mediate classes, but It lack of teacherscompetcnt to teach the infant dnsses ?-Yes, there is a deficiency of skilled infant, tC[lchers. .

385. lJy Mr.' Jenlcin'8.-The Kindergarten wonld require more skill in teaching than tbe ordinary su~jects ?-I should not admit that. I admit it requires previous tmining. I think the leaching of the first steps in reading reqnires as mnch skill as Kiud~rgartell. Kindergarten is a special brunch.

"386. It, req nires previous training even more than those other subjects ?-Yes. 387, Difficulties exist with the ol,ber subjects, and therefore the difficulties will be greater with

Kindergarten ?-Yes, under the existing ~tate of things. ' 388. Under the existing state of tJlillgS Kindergarten cOllhlllot, be satisfnctorily taught ?-Not to t,he

fnl! extent, but I think an attempt coult1 be made-a beginning eonld be made. 389. By }f1 .. Long.-You told us what an infant school-misH'ess did to prepare those young people;

what are Ihe duties of a head teacher when such a circular as the" approved conrses" comes out in regard to his siK'1if, more especially as to the particular work set ont there P""'::"'He wonld instrllct the pnpil teachers both theoretically and practically in the work 'that was prescribed.

390. So that when those courses cnme before the teacbers the mind s of the head teacher and the assis­tants teaching the classes would bc bent Oll acq Hiring the know ledge and imparting it to the whole staff of the school ?-That, no doubt, will be done.

391. JJy the Chai1·man.-SuPl,ose they did not know it themselves ?"-We mnst proceed slowly, as in the case 0f drawing. ·We must pnt before them what we wish them 10 aim at, and thcy must seek, wiLh the menns at thei.r disposal, to acquire the knowledge, so as to be able to carry out what is wanted.

392. By Mr. Long.-You believe a good text-book is as good as It lecture ?-Not quite so good, but the text-books are so good that a man with ordiuary intelligence could acquire a knowledge of the snbject.

393. By the Ch[~i1"man.-Does that apply to drawing ?-A Illan mnst have some knowledge of dmwing, but 1 think a person wilb a knowledge of drawing to begin with could acquire sufficient to be able to teach it very faidy.

394. You only sllggest some of the early Kindergarten work ?-We Imve hot gone into the whole of the gifts, and we have suggested the oecnpations that have been fonml practicable in English schools. Many of the English schools must be in charge of teachers who 11a ve not bad any special Kindergarden training.

395. Do you think that is a good thing ?-It wOllld be better that they should have had this training, bllt if they have an aptitnde for infant training and have a good knowledge of general teaching, Kindergarten i" not a thing that a person with average intelligence could not ncquire a knowledge of.

396. The Irish Commission say-" It is necessary to add that we are impressed with the danger likely to result from snch a branch of school work as this being taken up by incompetent teachers, especially by toachet's who do not, appreciate, or even comprehend, its educational aims. Eltperience in England has shown that teachers are som0times led by the apparent simplicity of many of the exercises to think that dIC work is such as can be done by a teacher almost without any previollS stlldy or seriolls preparation of allY kind. As a result, failing to compreheml the objects.of Iheinstruct,ioll, they content themselves with devising the shortest rp.ethods by which children can be drilled to perform the exercises with a certain mechanical accuracy, and tbus t,hey fail to ~ecnre the most useful result, of this form of training." Do you agree with that ?-1 quite agree with that, but I lny stress upon the words" without previous study and preparation." I insist upon previous study and preparation on the part of our teachers.

397. Do you not think t here is cOllsidemble danger of a system of meehanica I accuracy arising?­There is a danger of that.

398. Do' you not think it woult! be advisable to guard against the danger by organizers and instructors teaching those wilo are to administer the s,Ystem before they mn.de It bau start ?-No, I think not. I think with teachers who have had a geneml trailling in Ihe art of teaching, and the principles that should govern teaching, there ought not to be allY insuperable difficulty in acquiring a general knowledge of Kindergarten work.

39:1. Can you say that theqnalificatiolls yon llaye just referred to uni\'ersallyexist here or pre­ponderaLe, as yOll have yourself cll'aWll attention to the fact that 11. certain secti~ll of the staff have not got Iniliated; if that is the case iil there not a dangel', unless they are specially instructed, of their falling into a mechanical system ?-There is R dnllger, bnt that is no reason why we should not get the benefit of the Kindergarten system as fnr as w,e can.

400. The Kinllel'garten methods were abandoned practically some years ago ?-I should ndt like to say that. I should say special provision for iustructor~ in Kimlergarten was abandoned.

401. Those now illstructions are the result of a recent conference snmmonc(l in .January last?-Yes.

402. Hastily Sllmmoned ?-1 do not thillk so. 403. It was not the subject of allY preceding conference fol' some years past ?-There was a

conference ill the preceding year. flOt "Vas the subjecL of Kindergarten discussed theu r-1 think not. 405. Was tJle sllbject of hand and eye training or manual illstruetioll clisCllSSCll then ?~Not to my

recollection. 406. When was it discussed ?-At the conference held this year.

o

S. J. Swindley, 7th July, 1890. 24

4.07. How is it t.hat neither of thqse topics h~ve i;cen discussed diil'ing the precediiig teri y~ars?-I could not say that they hllve not beeq discussed.. _

408. Do YOli recollect their being discussed in.eonference ?-The subject of liimd and eye traiilillg, I should sny, had not distinctly come up before. '

409. Since the <liseolltinuunce of tlie ,Kindergarten exi1€mditure ha" it beeil discussed until i'ecent.iy? -I have no recollection of its havinO' been discussed. .

~1O. Then 1 he Department, i~ its ~dhe~ence to t!l,C: old .eollrses, has, ~~,en m.ecli(iniea.lly. ft:l,lo\yilig Ollt cOllventlOlJallines, and not having regard to the l,levelopment of oduea~!0Ilal.1f1et.\1(?d~,in oth~~' ,pa!tH of the world :-1 do not assent to that. J siJould not Iikc to say t.hat the Department has been !ll0chal~ical,ly follo,:lI1gany cOllrse; we were confronted witj1, a. period of except.i()lIal. depression, and ,necessarily the energieS of I,he senior officers were concentrated for a time upon meeting Ihose exceptional eircumstllnces in which we were placed. , ,

411. Did thc Dei)artment ever place on record its views as to the effect of retrenchii'ient upon the educational system of the eolo.ny ?-I canuot speak as to that. ., , . , , , .412 .. Has th~eollferellec of inspectors, as It whole" evel', put IIHo.l~,ree?nl i,ts.opinio:l l:!-sto ,effect, benefieml or otherwIse, Df the system of reti'encbment ?-1 have 90. re~ol!ect\On ,of ~~s, haVing dDlle so., >.

413. The Department in its annnal reports ila!l almost im;:lriably ,taken credit fOI' the larg? retrench­ment that has been effectecl witbout impairing the efficie~cy Df the educa~iona} systemTno'Y y:ougi:y;e that as a reasoll fDr ilOt keeping pace with the foreign methods ?,-I do not admit that we d,id ,not .endeavour to improve the !]uality Df the instruction all thrDugh the period of t.he (lcpres;;iDn, HS f~r as .the means at OllI' disposal would allow. The inspcctors were working just as energetically to secure efficient training during that periorl lUi during any other .period, but we necessarily had to disconiinue some expenditure t,hat was pre,:"iDusly thought desirable. Kindergarten is not esseptial to good infant trainillg, tl!()l~gh it is desirable, no dOllbt. The English infant schools are really one of the, best feat.nres of tile English system, and the KindergartellwDrk thltt, is being done there is no dDubt,beneficial, l?nt thqy were ,verYlgo~:)(1 wit~out it~

j 414. By Mr, Jenkins.-COllld you have good in,fant teaching .i.f you exclude t~e, Kinqergarten methods ?-That is a different thing. KimJergarten methods, so far as .they are true methoqs Df te;t~hing, mlist pervade all good teaching, but the special features of the Killdergnrtell are, no~ Ilsseqtio.l t~ gooq teaching. Some of the features of Kindergarten teaching have really pervaded English iiifant schools for niallY years, apart froni the special Kindergarten teaching. " ,;

415. They do not pervade the Victorian teaehing ?-Te u certain extent they do, but we had nDt a full snpply of cDmpetent mistresSes to put in eharge of infant departments. , ; . , '

, 416. By the Cl.avrman.-Have yOll hud any practioal training in the subject of manual training or ha,na and eye training ?-No, I h,ave had no special experiencejll those snbjects.

417. Do YOll knDw any Df your eolleugues who. have ?-I do. lIOt. , , .. , .. 418. Do you not think that it would be better to wait, before introdneing those subjqcts, I,Iiltii you got

skiiled organizers and instructors ?-It is open to quest.ion; I 1\l\l'(I1y think it is advisable to wait, 419, The Departllient advert.ised for those offieials here P·-Yes. , .. 420, They did' not get allY applications that were 'considered Fatisfa,etol'Y ?-N o. . . 421. You still think it wise t,l make a start without thelll?- I think it wise ~o put ~efore" the

teaehers what we have in view, to lead them to obtain some.preliminary knowled~e of th~ subject" S!?, that they will he better fitted when the organizer arrives to. profit by his.instruction .. Beside~ t\mr, I,think the COlliltry teaehers will not be abJe to cOllle ahd profit by the orgtlilizcl"s lessons, and it will be useful for them to have .something definite before them to direct their studies. ~ ,. _

422. Wonld it riot bav:e been better to have dil'ectell then] 10 ll,lllke themselves acquainted as far as they could with ·the methods before carrying tliem into operatimi ?-As 1 lIuderst;!}nll, we do not propose t.o earry them immediately iiltO opei'ation; we shnll i)J'oceed slow Jy aud judiciously, as we did with drawing. . , . " ". .,. , .

423. The. Iilspecto.r·General said. ~hey were to try them as fu], as they cDuld-if the teacher could riot do wood work he was to do plain modelling, ,and if he eonld riot do.plain !llodelling h!! wa~, to (\0. string work-is not the Depal·tment plaeing itself ill a ridicuJons posit.ion by is,?ui!lg illstrnct~oD~ whi!!!l i.~ won!d not be disobetliimt not to carry ont ?-I think not; it would be disobedient for the tea,cher ,l~qt to make himself acquainted with at least one of the subjects. Some pf the teuchers arc ,already, skilled i!l these subjects. Wheu we introduced drawing we put.forwnrll a definite syllabus,. drawn up by the Dr(twing Inspector. We were qnite aware tiui.t I:n3ny of the teachers liad no knowledge of the subject, and the inspectDrs 'in visiting the schools Illade due allowance for sueh tenehers, and simply urged them to qualify themselves as quiekly AS p08£ible, 'and, ill the meiwtime, to confine thoir 'York to elell1entltrY,wo.rk that they felt competent to. teacH, but to go Oil and study the subject. The result.has beenl,110S~ sat,isfaetory ~ the advanCEment in drawing has been. most gratifying to the inspectors. W EO did !i.;..ot llluke it a subject of result examiilRtion for sorne ,ycars, but after we found thnt a certain ad vance had beeu mllde, we did ~o introduce it, ancla' good deal of very good worl~ is Geing done. \V e propose to proceed III exactly the same way with the Kindergarten work.

424. Drawing was not a new art-there are plenty of people teaching drawing ~-Many of the country teachers had 1,10 knowledge of the subject. ~

425, But there are plenty of people from \v hom .they eonld learn? - Yea. . 426. By.lffr. Long.-]s not the teaching in hand and eye work fDr clnsses 2, 3, 4, and 5 practically

founded on drawing ?-t believe it is. . 427, By Mr. Jenkins.-In Mr. Simpson's report for 1896 he says-" In nearly all schoDI13 the pupil

teachers receive some attention from either a head teacher or a senior member of the staff in dra,ying. As a rule, one lesson a week is given. That is as good as eun be where the teacher kl1O~VS his subject; but in the majority of cases it is a matter of the blilld leu\Fng one whose eyes are slightly open." Do you indorse that ?""":I do not flllly indorse it" bllt ] think there is a good clenl of trnth in it. W' e have made a material advance since then; pupil teachers have been gett.ing other iuslruction besides that from head teachers, and tbe head teachers themselves have in m:lny cases improved tbeir kuowledge, ,

428. By D1'. 11lac}!'arland.-How long is it sin(;e ~lmwing was int\'odllc~d ?-I thiuk it is ab?ut seven or eight years siuce we dispensed with. the dra.wing ll1asters, lind expected eyery teacher tp, teach It..

429. By the (}7wirman.-As a matter.of fultt, w.ould not you say that the improvement was to some extent due to :iYlr. ~impson's influence ?-I shQulg think so,

•

25 .,J. Swindley, 7th July. 1899.

430. It could not be contended that mamiil.l thi,inillg aM eye and hand t,r~iniilg could be picked up i,n the same manriei· as drawing-there is not the snme amount of skill available outside the Department?­J believe there are ChtSSbS in existence at t.iw Working Men's College,

431. Theu why not get, them to instruct YOllI' teachers ?-J do not thillk that they take up the elementary forln8 or haitd and eye traihing that we propose to introduce. The mallnal training we diu not intend to idroclnce until we had iiii instructor.

432. By J.vh. Long.--:l)o'es not this circulai' pnt it ill the i'eguillf way, just as the course of drawing was put 6tlt befol'e the cXliert was on the spot ?-The expert was on the spot before drawjll~ was, made compulsory. The great majority of the teachers could not get any benefit from the teachlDg of that expl?rt.

433, By the Chai1'?nan.-Dnni'ing was taught iil the public ami private schools of the colony?-But 110t iii the srilaller State schools.

The ?vitness witlidl'ev,· ..

A(ijOU:"I1Cd to Monday nc:!:l, at Eight o'elaell.

MONDAY, iOTH JULY, 1899.

Mbmbe?'s l)res13?it :

THEODORE FINK, Esq., M.P., in the Chair;

~T. G. Barrett, E,sq., ,T. H. Mac}'!trland, Esq., LL.D., 11. G. ,Tenkins, Esq., , y. W. Pool man , Esq.,J.P, .. C. R. Long, Esq., M.A., H. W. Potts, Esq., ,J.P., :F.O.S.

Samuel ,T. Swindley, further examined.

434. By the Chd7'1lian.-Have YOIl any pmdicitl experience in the subject of manual training 7-No.

435. Have you ~tudied the question Ih relation to its pliwe in school work ?-I have to some extent.

436. Do "YOll appi'OY8 of Lts proposed introduction here ?-I do. I t.hlltk it hus long been before edueationalists that th~ teaching in schools should pal'talie of physical and lIlaliual ti'aining as well as literal'.v training .. ~ tHink that has long bee,1l a probleJll before aiiy orie who hr.s thought of the question of education-tJ~e ditliCldty lias becn the introduction of' snitable exercises.

4:)7. Thitt difficulty has been surmoul1ted in oHier eountries ?-That is the case to a eonsiderable extent; but 1,think the diffieulty is being surmounted rather than lias been Sllrl11Olilited. Thring, of Uppinghum, iritroduced into his school yeurs ago carpentl'Y woi·k and sinith work; ill fact., olle of his cherished ol'l~aments on his d,rawing-:room table was a steel poker madc by one of his pupils.

, ~38. I pi'csnmc aite ~f tile objcets of the 1l1atHlal training YOll would introduce woitld not be to teach pupils to be srrlith~ or earpenters ?-No, Ilnqncstionubly not. I tnink we should cultivate accuracy of eye and maflilni dexterity.

439. To educate thcir faculties of eye nnd hund ?-Precisely . . '140. ~4.1id to lilY it solId fouliJation fai' ieciinicai training afler the j)rimary school ?~To form an

introcluptiolt . to tech~ical ~raili.illgl, possibly to lay a solid fOllndation. r" e are in such iui expel'imental sbge ~t pi'eseht that I do hot know that we cail siiy it will lay rio thorohgh fomidation, but we think it will fonII an inti'qduciior: to technieal traiuihg. .

441. Is no~ t~at .th~ vie,y taken of manllal tmining in primary schools in other pnds of the world­America, Englantl, .. aull. Fl'u!1ce ?-:It is, bht 1 think they propose to hli,'e continuation schools-evening schools-w~ich I should judge would be a ;;ort of intermediate stage Lehveen the pl'inmry school and the technic:tl school.

442. It is liot merely a bl'idf!:Q between the literary training of the primary school and the technical SC1;1001 ?-No. . '

443. H~vc yo~i tholtght of the amo~ll1t. of tillle that could lJe given to illanual tmining ?-In the first installee I thirik we should coufine it to the boys, and probably one hour per week would sufiice for the eourses that ,,!e have suggested.

444. But those courses that you lH~ve suggested were not indicated by your Department as compre­hensivt', they were only preliminary ?-'-'l'hey were suggested courses.

445. They were only preliminary; they were Hot put forward as a complete scheme ?-A tentative scheme,

, 446. I~ooking beyond to a permanent scheme, have you any idea as to how mallY hours a week it will lakn ?-J should think, nltimately, it would require two hours a week.

447 .. Have YOll formed any opinion as to whether that two hoUl'S should be the result of the sacrifice of s:ome .of the present lessons, or an addition, or partly one :tut! partly the otlll'lr?-That is a very ilIl­po,rtaptl PRi?t., My f~.elillg ,with regard to the. curriculnn1 is th~t ill.e p,rim',ll'Y obj.ect of an .elementary school 1$ the d.evelopment of mental power ou the part of the puplld wlt.h the lIupartmg of so much useful

S. J. Swindley, 10th July, 1800. 26

information as can be given ill the time. I cannot see my way to sacrifice wholly any of the subjects at present 011 O!lr cOIll'se. Takc the subjects seriatim; we all agree that the instrumental subjects, reading, writ.ing, and. arithmetic, must form the chief portion of t,bc instruction; then we come to 'geography and grammar. Some knowledge of geography is almost illdi~pcnsable OIl the pnrt of a child, but I think the ?l1louot of detail13houltl be very carefully limited; it should be taught on good,l)road principles, and in an IuteJ'esting manner, and onlY.60 much information aimed at as an educated mun seeks to retain-very little more than that; topographical detail shotdd be cut dow'n to the narrowest limit. That is the direction in which we have been going in amendiug the programme, and I think we may perhaps go still further.

448. Do not the teachers who have the responsibility of framing their own programmes differ very largely in the alTlonnt of time they give to particular subjects ?-I think not. I think, taking any good schools, you will find the amount of time is very simibr, with the exception of one subject; in some schools they think they get oyer t,he problem of teaching writing at a comparat.ively early age, and they give very little time to formal writing lessons in the higher cln$~es.

449. We had the progrmu.mes of two big schools in which there wus a yery wide discrQpancy as to two or thrce subjects ?-There will be discrepancies, bnt still my general impression is that on comparing Hme· t:tLle with time-table the amount of time l'llllS Vl!l',V mnch on the same lines in its apportionment.

450. Snpposing it were found necessary, in order to introduce manllal training completely, to give two hours a week, how would that two hours be fOllnd ?-I was just going to speak on the other subjects of instrllction, Next we come to grammar; tlmt is the subject most commonly suggested as one that should be eil,her struck out or greatly cnrtailed. I do not agree with that ,ricIY,

4.';1. Not as to nnyof the elnsses ?-I think the teaching of hwgllage 01' gmnimar really lies at the Illtsis of mentnl growth, as the fundamental thing in education, and tlmt a child gets a kind of mental discipline wllOn gmmmar is well tanghl thnt he does not get from ally of t.he other subjects of instruct.ion. .

452. Are there not some educational writers and reformers who think that grammar' as taught is Ycry often too abstrac~, nt the early age nt which it is taught ?-We ha I'e discontinued the teaching of grammar at nn early age; we do not commence until the 3rt! class. the average age of which is ten years and six months. \¥e used to teach it in the 2nd class, bllt we now teach only a little grammar in the anI. Provision has recently been made for teaehing an elementary knowledge of analysis, t.hat is, the cnpflcity to divide the sentence into the suhject and predicate, as a preliminary to' teaching the parts of spe.eeh.

453. Do you think an elementary knowledge of analysis is more suitable for a young child' than any part of grammar that they n~w learn ?-I would rat.het' put it, this wny-that the teaching of the parts of speech should be concurrent with the teaching of the clements of the sentence; that is what we are now pl'o"idiug for. J feel sa.t.isfied that some of the most skilful teachers ill the service, who really teach grmuml1l: well, are tboroughly convinced of its real utility in mental training ..

454. Even as a subject for 80 early an ag~ as ten? -Childron between ten aml eleven can get a good knowledge, amI an intelligent kllowlcllge, of sllchgmmmar as we propose to teach them.

-155. Do they apply it after'wards in re"peet to the bnguage they hear around them ?-It ,~s an o intrJduction to the more ad vanced teaching they in the higher eln,sscs.

456. Is that in accord with advanced thought ill relation to education ?-·I Lhink so, as to 80 much grammar as we attempt to teach; I think you will filld the ba'\ance of authority is qnite in favour of the retention of the teael:hg of grammar.

457. Take an Ellglish sehool where manual training has heen introduced with success, are you in It position to say how mlleh gmmmar they retain ?-I am sorry to say that at home English is an Gptional subject, and I think the inspectors greatly lament it. Heading, writing, and arithmetic, are the elementary subjects, and the class subjects are English, geography, elementary history, and domestic economy; elass' subjects teachprs are nt liberty to make a seleetioll 1'1'01'\1, so they are not obliged to teaeh English; the elementnry subjects must be taken in en~ry. school.

458. By Dr. il1acFarland.-In Haying that yon tlo not think gmrnmae ought. to be reduced on account of its high educational valne, tloes that apply to ann lysis of eompJicnted sentences at which many boys and girls spent! a good deal of time ?-In some points of detitil it might be usefully curtailed in the higher dnS8es. -

459. lJy ltf1'. Jenkins.-That wonlJ. be in the llature of a teaching detail rather than ground work? -For instance, the suhtle distinction between the indirect object and the extensions of the predicate, I think might very well be droppe{], if t.hey haye a good broad view of the subject. Then I come to geography and history.; there I thillk we might curtail even further than we have done, especially in 11i5t.ory. We have reduced the geogrnphy very materially in Ollr last l'egnlation, and we ought to revi;;e om history syllabns-l think we might possibly take geography anti history as one subject.

460. lJy the Cha'innan.-What docs yoU!' hi~t'lI'Y comprise ?-Ellglish history, from the earliest times to the present day. It is tnnght in three sectiolls, from the earliest limes to the baltle of Bosworth Field, a.t the com:ncncement of the Tndol' period; from the Tudor period to the HOllse of Hanover; and from the HOllse of Hallo\'er to: the pl'es~nt ,ilty. It is taught to the 4th, 5th, and 6th classes, but there ttre only specified porl.iolls to he prepnred for extHllillation. A child l'emls the "'hole book, but there are certain specified ponions the teacher shouhl handle in detail, upon whicl! the child is' examiued-I would further reduce those speci ned portions. .

461. Thnt is practically reducing it for examination purposes ?-Ye~, the ebild will read the history as a J'cmlillg book, and get It good idea of the snbjcct ill t,]lI1t way, l,ut he will !IOt ue eXllmined in the less importaut pO]'Li()ll~. .

462. By l1fr. LO)~,1,-Are yon prepare(l to begin hi~tory at 1688 earlier times are capable of more illterestillg ti'eatrne,lt for the yOllllgel' children, tll:,t, is almost the only reas')Il why I dislikc clropping t.ll!Lt IDriotl. It C111 be lllade morel interesting for chiLlI'cm in tllO 4th class-history becomes more eomplex a~ we come to later timo." X ow IYC come to scie:w[), I would sa \T I thi nk 01\1' science is 011 the whole uascd on thc right lines; it is llOt., strictly speaking,'scicnee-it is 1,1(0 know\eJge of the ol'(linal'Y pb~nomenl\, of nntUl'e that c:Jl1le under a child's notice, togctllOl' with sllch m:;ehanieal contrivance;; as he will have to see aUll hwe. to use, and such a knowledge, of the strncture of the body as will enable him to grasp intelligently

27 S. J. Swhldley, 10th July, 1899.

the Jaws of health-that is the 1'eo,l gist of our sciencc, and I take it that it is in accord with thc views of Profe8<:'or Huxley. As far as my recolleetion goes, in his treatment of the subject in Lay Sermons and Addresses, that is' wilat he advocates. A cldld ought to know how wind "is produced, where rain comes from, and so forth. He ought to be aulc to gi"e :In intclligcnt accollnt of the common phenomena of ~~. .

463. By Ou; Ohair1nan.-C/ln he do that wilhout ullderstalluing leading scientifie principles ?-We do not embarrass It 1t.h class chillI with abstract science. The 1110re !lb~tracl portions we leave to the 6th class; thcre we bring in the general propprties of matter, the simpler phenomena of heat, and the properties of solid~, liquids, /lnd gRses.

464. Do you t.hink if It child underslands the actual phenomena of nature, he is in a better condition to realize the principles in the 6th class?-We do ; we reversed it at first-we t.ook the scientific order, nl1fl we have now reverted to what we consider the natural order.

465. vVhy not Ilpply tbnt to gmmmar P-We do. A sentence is what n chil.1 is familiar with, and we lead him to see that to form n sentence he must first tlJink of something, and then see what he has to say nbout t.hat something-that is the conrse ad vocated by the leading teachers of grammar,

466. The scicnce of language is one or the most abslract of the sciences ?-Yes, but we take a child's ordinary speech. If a teacher teaches the subject righl,Jy, be takes the objects in Ihe school, and be shows the ol.ject and draws attention to it., and sbo\\'s that the objeet has n name, and then he leads the child to sec that there are differences in the nse of words; The ehild forms sent.ences which the teacher writes on the boal'(l, o,nd from that he elicits the lise of words in t.he sentt'llce, and the two ll1nin uses to which the wortls can be brought-he leads tllc child to sec that to form n sentence he must think of something, and thell say Fomething about it. , .

467. Is that "lew yon ha\'e cxpressed widely helll by mOlle1'll edneational reforrnel's ?-Lanclon ngrQCS with that view aner 25 years' experience ill cOllllexioll wit.h Training ColJeges. Tllis is whnt he says-[readiug the sameJ-I think grammar is It killd of logic to the child-he gets very little other logic, and it tenches him to see diffcrellces and resemblanees in an abstract form. If he is well trained it makes a valuftble mental training in enabling him to detect differences belween things that JO:Jk alike, and resemblances in thing'S that look Llissimilar.

468. By fl'Ir. ,lenkins.-Does not t,1,at occur in science 7-To SOme extent, but as regards training in abstract thinking grammar is morc valuahle than science.

469. By the Ohair-man.-Call a child be tmined ill abstract thinking ?-A ehild can begin to see there are differences in words. \Ve do 110t dwell II pOll abstract \JOIlIlS ill the 3rd class.

470. Whnt time do yon gi\·c to science ?--Science amI henlt,h comuillcd, one honr a week; tllere are fOllr half-hour lessons a fortnigbt, awl OlIC of thosc must be a henllh lcsson.

471. Are there !lot sometimcs two of each in some of the 8cliools, reducing science ·to one hour n week ?-Thcre are fOIll' lessons a fortnight given in science aud health combincd, and olle of those is a health lesson, so there are three lessons in science nnd one in henlth in a fortnight, hut in some schools they Hlld time for more.

472. That might be three.quarters of an hoilr in science ?-It might Illean that. 47;;1. Do you eonsider that sufficient ?-It is found sufficient genorally for the amount of scienee to

be tnnght.. When ~eachers find they can give more they do so; some regularly give nn honl' a week to science, and put in the health lesson as an extra.

474. If YOll wiped out grammar altogether, except in l.he 6th class, nnd sllbstituteJ science for the earlier c1nsses yatl think a child wOllld be Jess equipped mentally at Ihe end of It conl'se at the primary school ?-I thillk he would suffer by the loss of teaching in grammar.

47.'). By )lfr. Jen1cin.~. - Would he snffer in training or in tho power of expressing his ideas ?-1 think ho would suffer ill the mental tmining and also ill mental power.

476. By the Ghair-man.-Which would 'give llim most ideas to express ?-Bcicnce migbt give him more knowledge; it would riot necessarily give him better idens.

477. Whioh would bring out his faculties bett~r ?-It is the old contention bctween science and language; I am firmly on th~ side of l!tIJgunge as a mental training.

478. What is your opinion of the teachers' qualification for· teaching science, is it Slttisfaetory-how do they get their training in science ?--Thc pllpil teachers get instruction froln the head teacher and the senior I1.ssislanls.

I 479. Ha\'e they to pnss all examination ?-Yes, in every portion of the conrsf'. -180. How mnch instrnction do they get ?-They get six hours instrnction per week at least in all

suhjeets, t.hat is outside the school hours. 481. HlHe they got to do any study npart from t.hat instrllction ?·-ft necessitates preparation on

their part. Many of them at,tenll ontside classes in addit.ion t.o the teachcrs' classes. ·182. Is that system satisfactory ?-Thcre are uifficullies ill Ihe way of t.he pupil teachers r.ttclllling

classes in spe('inl centres, but, I hn,e suggestcd to the Inspector·General the advisnbilit.y of seeing whether variolls head t.cacheri! eould not. combine so that olle would Inke one sllbject in which ·he feft himself specially qnalifie,l, and another take nil other, nnd so forth. By this mcans, instead of a head teacher's time being distributed over so lllany pupil teachers \Ye should be nble to have a clnss on one sllbjeet tmwht uy n man who fclt himself specially qualified. I ha\'e I,honght that at C,lrit(lIl, for illstallce, the h~ad teaeh.ers might take different Bubjects, one arithmetic and grammar, another scienee and geogrnphy, and so forth.

483. The pnpil teachers may be getting their teaching in science from a man who is not very stron(Y on science ?-Yes, but f),t the same time most or the head teachers have made themselves acquainted with the sllbjeets lauglJt in the school, and those are t.he subjects the pupil teachers nre ealled upon to pass an exnmilllltil)ll in.

'184. Is 1I0t t.hat work for the Training College ?-The preliminary teaching mllst be given in the schoob, it mi~ht he elaborated in the Training College. .

485. The further instruction, so as to qualify for teaching, would go further than t,he ability to pass a clnss test ?-It should.

486. Is not that putting too severe It strain upou the heo.d teachers, to require them to teach aft,er the day's work ?-1 think not.

28 . 4s'7. 13}/ J}i1'. B(irl'~tt.~18 it COriipillsory fOl' nie liohd tmi.ciJci-fi td do that ?-Yes, for tlie hima tea?hei' iill~l his assistaiit.e. , The i'!'lgulation is now that tho head teacher must give a satisfactory portion of the instJ'llctioii,; h,c mnst l~ot.i'elegate too large rl. i:ioi·tiod of the insh·ticHon to the assistant teachers.

488. By lltr. Potls.-How nluny homs are the pll]iiHeachers engaged in teaching ?-Five hours . . ,.}8D. HOW,:~~n,11Y,!holll'~ ~ d~y J;lrivllte ;study. is neccssn.ry for tbem to ,equip thelllselv~s for passiiig

tli!p Ol'lllll!tl'y oXaJlllII,atlOn ?-It IS d,fficnlt to say. Jylanyof them commence mtll so good a knowledge of tho work (bemillse it is tlie work they have bemi leal'llillg iiI their several classc~ in tHe schoolsiha.t they go over Ilgilill in their pl1pil teiichcr course) that they citn acqllii'e tIle llCCeSSt1l'Y knowledge \\'ith ri coiripara­~ively ,small amount ?f study. Others who start with less preparation ~onld require to study three hOllrs a duy, I shotild ihiilk.

490. that is five bOllI'S' cills;' teil.CliiJ1g ami threc hours' study ?-lil additiori to Oi10 hour's teaching from tl}o head toacher ; but muny are so ,,;ell Pl'cj)iired, having pa~seti in the 6t.h cl:iss, that t.his work is not difficult to thein.

491. By Dr. ll1acFarlalid.-Tllat. is hine licihrs a da\' for rh·c dlivs it weei{ Z - Yes. ,they can lighten it oy by.stpdyjlig oh Sntitr(Jay iiioruihg, ahd so do less.·lh tile ci,cning. , , .. 4,92. ]j:~ flf1·. Poo{m'rm.-f1o Y01~ allc)lv t.he llead toaclllih to liavc pJ.ivate tuition ill the evening in State sehools ?-N ot ivitliOlitspecial dtithol'ity: .,....... . , . " 493. How is that !tUtl.lOi'i.ty givcil ?::...-I~ is given by the Ptiblic Service BOllrd, who re~ommend it ~? the Governor in C6liii,cil, I tliillk. I slioiild ndil that Ii reroh is obtaiilell from the disti'ict inspector before such pj3i·inissioii. is given:. , . .

494. By .M1·. Je117li11s.-0n page S of t.1ie Report of the iiispeetors' Conference, {oi;fi:nfing to ai'itli­rnetic, one of the inspectors quotes a recent pupil teaohcrs~ examination where nOrle of the cUIldidilles uild~rstoo4 \\'ha,t aUdition ll,ieailt; ,iiild. iii the 2i1dclass pnpi,1 iy,iicl~cr~' eXlllllin'ation only thi'ee Inlew what !l, l\ecimaI-frndion was; is that jusi.ified by wHat yon know of pupil teachers; is it not your own opinion that ai'itlimetic is vei,ywca.!;: ?-;-IshoLiIl! not. like.to say that. I wbilid put it iii Ihis 'inlY, that tlle processes rife almost iiivariitblj \\~ell tuhgbt; that is, the \\,,;y df solviHg partiCiil~r questiolls; ,bitt ihere is H tendency to oiriit to teach the subject' so .i.s to bring odt the prillhipll'S iiiid the i'easoni" for l.he processes. At the same time, there is a good lll:'al of rcally good teaching of arithliietlb. I tliihk there is fm irilproveniellt since the Departmimt has becn impressiiig the lle~~~sity fbl' ih~ teaC1iitig of prineitiles., . ,. 49:1. How long h,a,:e they \>een,impl'.e~si~lg tHe necessity. foJ' teachihgj?rinciplos. In 1<!0king over the reports for some years tlillt fact RcehlR to lihve beeii iiJsisted lipon by s~vei-itl iilsi)ectol's ,[-It has lately been giyeil greater lii'oiiii'leilce to ih tlie regui~tiollS. In (iill' exailiitiati.)n paliel's for teacliers arid piipil teachers we put (1i:estioils ill principles, and specify Iii the lic}id tlillt It reas6nabie ni.teinpt nmst b" made at.llllswering .tpose questioll~. . ,

. 496. II] 1892 yo:!. conip\[tin of liii:clHlliie!,l teaching in all subjeots, scierioe, gl'umtlJar, and al'ithilletie ?-In reports of HuLt iiuttire it does riot folJo\v tHat .the defeet.s rire lihiversil.1 01' even verj' geiJeral. if there is< a perceptible or appreciahle 1!ick of' intelligeilt telichillg the iiispector feels bound to cnli atten(;ion to it; it may be found ill only 10,20,01' 30 pel' cent. of"the teachers; but if it is there, we want it i'ernoved, ano call attention to it. . I. .' 497., By the C/!ai1'niCfn.-If it is iii io perceHi., do.d YOli c:ill afteritioh to i~" how 18 it brotight home to the 10 pel' cent., ami not 11l1dcrstoocl as ii genehl ci<iHcisiil oil tho wnole distl'ict, ?-l tliiilk we generally wqr~ our report so as to bo l1nderstood. Some teachers klio\\'; they have been pei'soridiiy spoken to on the subjcct.. .

MlS. By LlI1". .leuk.ins.-Ll ,roill' j'cport of i g9{ yoli say-;-H One ~f these: is the uiiifoHn 01' geneml mloptioll of olle metbod, as if it were tl.10 oiily li{ethl:d of tellChirig a su~jeet; and tlie oiuryiilg out of this n1('j,lIou ili It rnechilniCll.1 n.iHl ilOt ill nfi intclligeill wlly)J ?-I ihilil( that iipiilies 1Il0re to wallt of variety ill methpli, alld I eontillualJy hllpl'eSS lllioit le:i.ellers tiitlt ihoeiliidrcil love vlll'i,ety, alld that oiie liiethod, ho\\'ever good, cannot be tiniforllily udllerc(1 to ; htit iilere should be vai'iety iiI the method; vitriety in the teachi.ug of sp~\Iing, for i!lstance, and o";'ci'y snojeet that, is taught.

:'199. By N1'. Long,--Call yoh explain how YOU inform i1itlividiml teachers of tliose defects as well a~, y.oUl' whole d!stri(lt a 1,1(1 ,the whol~.; col,~;.j,iYr-1 ~~,ri,~e a fi~IJ, rep~r,t. in cadi iJl~ peo~or's rcgisf~;i·.i I Wen a~k the tea,cher t.p,read t.hat repol't t.it,rOligl,l, npd wheilcver t.ane pern)lts we go fnlly mto the va~'lOlIs qpes­iious raised ih tluit report. The teitdiei' iil8b h~s to copy tliRt report nild sond it to ine; so we insui-e thM he thoroughly reads it. .. . " ;.

500. By tAe ChaiTrna'n,.-As.1\ iliilLtel' of filct, Have I}Ot a gr'eilt nnrbbci' of piJl)I[ tea(lhers got to get theil' instructioil outsidc?-I lim not iil a position to say. From 1ii:;ar8!~V 1 sliodlil judge that many aLtond cl'asses in addition t.o those conuncted oy tho head te(1ciJer and his 1l,ssisti].JJts, but i eli.ilnot speak as to toe proportion that do so , . . . .. . , . .501. Inrelntioll to elementary scienee, iiiiuillg,hgficiiltiire,.and dairyibg, is there any ste.p t!iken to

compil.e suitable texf-booh ?-A text-book in ngi'ieulthre was pi'ci)ared somc rigo by Mr. Luplau, but I do not Iql0W of any text-book iil the otllehilbjects.

502. Wns not that -a copy of a 1'01',\: lLilOiont. Danish mrtlilllll ?-d call1~ot say. Baroiivon ~Iiielicr pl'epared n volume called Select Plants; that hinl a bef1.l'ing oil suitable plant:; fo], ellltivation hi Victoria. . 503. Has there been any attempt tv j)l'opare any toxt-book on those subjects lately ?-None that I ir.rh aware of. .

504. Is it contemplMe(l ?-Not thht i afu ~ware of . . ' 905. Do upt you think your clementary science wonlt! be stTengtiJelled by a work of that so'rt 7_1t has no beul'ii1.g ilpon the elernclitnry sCieiice tliat we teaeh.. .. . . '. 506: Ithciilght YOI! vyished to lil\l:ke iheln furriHi(ti' with the f~ets of nature ?-Thetext-books that

y(:ni speak of cOli template a 1l10i'e exteiitled iu::;trlietioll than we' propose. . > ,'j07. I refer to things t.Im~ pl1pil~ shonld be familiar }vith ?-;-Mining, Ilgrieulture, Ilml (Illiry­

iug \"Olild be too advanced altog-ether to iutroduce int.o J st, 2nd, or 3rd classes. There is a provision ~n the'";eglllatiol)S that teachers ::'ho have, the l'eguisite·kuowledg<;l Hiay shhstitute lmy other approved connie for t.he COlil'Se of ~cierice laid ilo\i'u, and thiit is being done ili some cases. I .. . .

408, .Are those three,suhjeets !\PprO~il(1 90urses ?:-~gricul~llre ~lld ~nining I thiilk would be. I do ngl kno\v whether the qliestion has been rnised as to dairying; \~'J s!ioiJill ~\'Illlt to Idow \dHLt facilities they had for teaching it.

S. J. Swindley, lOth Juli;'i~99.

I

509. Are there auy alterations proposed in the teacher§' exaJl)jnq.tion that you think would be desirable to train teachers in manual tmining 01' sciepce, to qualify the teachcrs to make the !lew departure !L sncccss ?-1 should first say that a llew and morc ad vanccd COllrse of study for pupil teaehers has been drawn up, and is at present nuder the eonsjderat,ion of tlle pabillet; it is pm~tjcally that we advance the requirements one class, modifying some of the details of the sllbj~Cls, but we have not introduced ipto it any examination in mannal trainiug; it is expecting a more liberal education froTp the pnpil teachers.

510. Does your Department propose to go fo!"vUT(l in either science or wanual training, 01' stndy thrrt would qualify for the advancement of those subjects ?-\Ve,ha\'o proposed a more ndvanced standard of examination for each class of pll pil teacher, so that they would enter the Training College with a much bettor general oducation than they have hith~rto done. .

511. Are they to get it in State schools ?-¥es. !:

512. Theu why do yon not COllfine the inlpl'OV~Ill()J1t tp !lcjence and preparation for I):Jallual training hand nne! eye work ?-We want the improvement Ill] rounc!; t!,~e teaclwr IlHISt havc a good knowledge of tho subjeots included umlor English. '

513. Have you made provision ror the ~lIbjocfs tlmt Ii 11m inquiring ahont ?-¥~s, as regards a more advanced know ledge of science. For the I at dl~SS of Pl1pil teachers ill science the present require­ment is the simpler kinds of physical and meeluwical appliapces, the thermometer, barometer, lever, pnmp, siphon. spirit-level, wheel and axlc, plllley, ipclined pllllje, and tho organs of respiration, digestion, !lond circulation; that is the p,resent reqnirenU'lit. The proposed reqnirenlent will he something of this sort-the whole of the work prescribed in the progrHnH)1e 1'91' pupil teaci}ers, but in greater detail; all elementary kllO\yledge of eleetrieity; it will involvc t)lat t,hf) whole of what t,he pllpil teachers have leame(l will be reviewed, alld reviewed wil.h greater detail. ".fhey will hl].ve Balfonr Stewart's manual iustead of his primer, and it will involve ail elementary knowledge of physiology.

514. By Mr. Jellkin8.-~rhere is nothing abont sou!ld t.llC1·O ?-Teq.chers are encouraged to take up special sciences afterwards, and we arc aboll t to transfer 8xanjinatioll in those sciences to ti!e University. In the geneml examination for a 1st e1l';;$ certificate we exmt\ine in physics and elementary physiology; but it is one of severnl alternative qllalificat.ions for promol,iop to the 3rd cll}sS that they shall possess two science certificates, so t.hey speeialize !1cconliug to their 0\"\;11 inclinll.tiop all(l aptitude.

515. By jJ'l1 .. Potts.-In view of the fact that you arc expeeting !1 higher grade frolll tJ10 principal teachers, do yon expect ~hem to cont,inue their teaching at, thc same rato that they are doing llQW, the five honrs a day ?~I cannot say wlwther therc is Lo he a provision for rclioving thE111.

516. By the Chainnan.-Do yon think there s\Iould 1.J!;l pl'ol'isio!l for p11rt,ii11 relief ?-1 think so; bnt the pnpi!- teachers now euter upon their conrse so much nl~ler and so mllcil better prcpared, that the work is really not any heavier than it was Lefol'o, not even IYilih this ad vanced cOtlrae. .

517. Is not the calise of thl1t the fact, that the 8ellool8 have boen 1I!ldcr!)lUlllled. Very often Lefore a boy can be admitted to the grnde of a pupil teacher, hc is a ptlpil teacher, in fILct, for a number of years. Is this likely to be permancnt ?-Whether the cauSJ:;s which have eontrihnt.ed to raise tbe age at which tho candidates have entered upon their course will bo permancnt is diffic[1lt to say. I think some of them will be permanent.

518. By 1111'. PoUs.-Al'e you aware that pupil tea(:\lers ill England teach ouly two half-days a week ?-I do not think that this is eorrect. I thiuk they teach more than thaI. Pupil teacher~ appear to entel' upon their eomse in Eugland at fourteen, alld they have a reguh]tjon allowillg them to relax thfLt rule. They have an inadequate supply of pupil teacl!~rs. lsholild likc to reI110\'c a miseonception with regard to pnpil teachers and monitors, as to setting childrE)n t.O t.each children. III thc school I was inspecting to-clay there were tell pupil teuchers, S8ven of "i'hom nre in th~ bt class. Olle other has passed in the essentinl subjects for the 1st class.. Tho youngest. i;3 seventeen yem's of nge; and the average of the tell is 22 year~ 5 months, 80 when you speak of setting childnm to teach children YOll cannot apply that to om pupil teachcrs. Therc is one mOllit,l'eS5 at prl.lsent; sho is eighteen years of age, and has passed in the essentials for the 1st dass of pupil teacllOrs .

.?19. By Jl1r. Long.-What sl1lary does she gct ?-£1O a ycar, r think. Takillg t~e next school, there are fifteen pupil teaohor8, !line in the I st class. The y,QlIugest is sevcntce!! a)Hl a ball' years of age, and the average Il:ge is 21 years 10 months; there are four monitors, the YOIll}gest seventeen !lud It

half, rind the averago age 19 years 1 month. 520. As soon as that monitress, now getting £10, becollles a J st class pnpiJ tef~chcr, she will get

£40 a year ?-Yes. \'" - . 521. By It/1:. Barrett'-'fnkillg your district llo?;1 whole, would (hosp ()gures be a fuir avemge?­

I did not specially select, the ~ehools. Olle I did thilll, was all extreme yrtse, bnt t,he .0th!3rs, J thonght were . very similar. !rhe third school had twelve pupil tench!,rs,teu ill the 1st class. The average age wail

23 years 9 months, and the youngest was nineteen. There were four monitors; the youngesL was sixteeu, and tho avcrage age was 17 years ~ Illouths. : "

522. By 11fr. Jenltins.-Those pupil teachers would' correspond 1110l'e with what m'o known hI England as ex-pupil teachers ?-Those ill the 1st clitss are ~'irtllnlly assistallts.

, 523. Reading your report of 1896, yon do llOt consiLier tlfose pupil tC.llcllers are competent to take a difficl)lt class ?-A large llumher of them are qualified to teaeh classes up to tbe 4th /l11<.1 5th, a4d do it extremely well. In my report for 18~6 1 refer more particnlarly to jllllior pupil teacl)ers. TIle pupil teacher system contemplates that in the case of jllniol's the head·tea.cher or sOIl1P.competent f!-s!3istapt should take a reasonable share in the more d.ifficult sllhjeet.s. While 1 think it is right to vindicate the pnpil teachers as to thcir real usefulness, I do not lllotU! to be llllderstood Lhat I do not think there shol)Jd be'a farger proportioIl of assistants,. That would not mean ially material chQ,nge in t.he teaching power; it would mean that a large number of those who are at present paid as pupil tcachers wonld be recognised ut theil' true value and paid as aSAistants.

524. You would also cOllsidel' it well that they should have better 'opPQrtunities given for their own studies ?-Yes, those that have not completed their course. Those that have completed their COUl'SO

are apprentices who have finisbed tbeir study. 525. By the Chairman.-For wholf) there is no v~cancy ?-Pl'omotion has been less frequent

since the retrenchment, 11 0 dOl! bt. 526. By Dr. MacFa7·/and.-There are a large number of pupils who, with intelligent sci.ence

teaching, could probably be as well educated as they could with language ?-I think so, but I thipk

s. J.:S;viridley, lOth July, 1899. 30

grammar gives a peculiar kind of mental training that they do not get from other subjects-either Ellglish grammar or a foreign languuge. Language lies nt, the root of exact thinking, and if a man has not an aeeurate conception of language he will not think accuratelv.

527. By the Chai1·man.-Does not grammar depend upon the company a man keeps ?-Thnt is practical grammar. '

521:). lJy Dr. LlfacFarland.-Can YOIl say to 1vhat extent apparatus is used iI), teaching science in . the State shools ?-Not as largely as we sboulJ wish, .but with increasing fl'ef]nency. 1 have much les8

-freqnently to call atteution to the l1ece~sity of having the apparatus at hand amI using it; but sOlUe of the sehools nre Ilot yet well supplied with apparatus.

529. Do you think that in half the schools npparatus is used in giving the science lessons?­I shoulJ think in a \n,l'gcr proportion than that ill my district, and all through the colony, in fact. .

. 530. lJy 1~1'r. POll.s.-How do t,hey replace the apparatns that is broken ?-Tbe teachers have to replace it; they gcnemlly have Il small surplu~ from their maintcnance fuud ami they devote it to that

- purpose. 531. By the Chai?·llutn.-Do t,hey ]'epbce it out of their own pockets ?-Many of them do. Olle

teacher spent about £151.\81, year in tbe variolls improvements aLout the school aUtI in get.ting apparat.lls. 532. Is that fail' ?-Hardly, Lhat so heavy 1Hl expense should fall 11pon the teacher, but I think

teachcrs can generally get. aS5istllllce by enlisting the assistance of the p!trents. 533. lJy Dr. LllacF'arlr(11d.-I fiml, from a retlll'll that lIfl'. Stewart ga\'e 118, that out of a t(}lalof

1,879 schools 783 have applietl for assistallcc in thc purchase of apparatus-that is, less than half ?-Yes, but when the. teachers apply to the Department for assistaoce the apparatns remains t.he propel'tyof the scliool. whereas a great ll1RUY teachers prefer to own their own apparatus and take it with them, ant! then they do not apply for any a:;si05tance.

534. By.Mr. Poolman.-Is that, because I.hey have so much diffieulty in getfing the necessary funds out of the Department ?'-No, they have to contribute so milch, and the Department contributes so much. If the apparatus is to remain the propcrty of the school the teacher has to raise the balance, and if he is transferred he may go to a school where there is no apparatus and have all Lhat trouble o\,er again, or be without apparatus; consequently, many teachers prefer to provide thc who1c of the money necessary for the apparatus.

/ 535. By 11ft'. Long -They can get this money by means of concerts?- Yes, rtnd local subscriptions. , 536. By f)1·. Macli'arland.-Do the children ever .have an opportunity of halltlling the apparatus

themselves in performing simple experiments ?-Tho inspectors look to the teachers to sce to tbat, it is not alwrtys done, bnt that is a matter of progress. I shonld 'say witl! all the hetter teachers they do-the teaehcr shonld call a child ont and let him go througl! the process~ I find SOllle of .the boys take a great iuterest in electricity, for examplc. . . 537. Great Mtcntion is gi'ven by thc London Sehool Board to what is givcn the name of the hel1l'istic

me.thot! of teaching, where a child is llI'ged to find out things for itself, rather than thc deduetive methOll where it is told the thing by the t.eacher as a fact ?-We object to the telling; we always ilprress upon the tenelJel's thl1t t.hey mllst teach by what is ealled the indnctive method. .

.538. If the teacher condncts his classes by making the children find out ror themselves is not the amount of information available for examination pmposes hy the inspector very small indeed compared with what the teacher wonld be enabled TO give the children if be adopted the other method ?---1 think intelli­gent teaching willlllwnys pay better than unintelligent teaching. The amollnt of information imparted hy our scicnce lessons is not great, the lessons can be thoroughly well taugllt, l1nd the child I)e prepared for examination at the same time.

;,}39. How is t.ile science work examined ?-"At the option of the inspcctor, it is examined orally or in writing, except in the 6th class, wLere it must be in writing.-

540. How mnny questions would be given by the inspector in a written examination in scienee?~ They give (pJestions involving about six points, and in the oral examination rwwy more questions-they might get tlu'ee double~ba.rreIlet! qnestiolls to answer in writing .. For my part 1 nearly always supplement the wl'iLten examination ill the 6th class by an oml examination in the henltll port.ion of the jJl'ogra.!llme. The inspector is also directed to examine orally, at his visits without notice, in any subjects that he thinks require special attention. It is very important, in comparing onr '\\:ork with England, to remember that we inspect as well as examine-we watch methods of teaching. In England it has hit,herto been almost exclusively e~aminat.ion 'without inspeetion. ' _

, 541. That i1:l not their own account of it-they statc exactly the opposite ?-They have just now gone to the other extreme, and are going to inspect without examining. If yon look up the inspector:;' reports you will find cOllstantcomplaints that they are unable to pay visits for inspection purposes.

542. By the Chai~·1nan.-One of your inspectors report-etl that his district was too big to allow him to do his work, and it was cut out of his report ?-1 cannot say anything as t,o that--'-1 was not responsible for that.

543. By Dr. 'MacFarland.- With regard to the payment by results system, does not that interfere in a most serious way with anything like proper science teaching of the elftsses-is it ~ot much easier f,or a teacher to prepl1re the pupils for the exmniuation of ttll illspector than to take the time in teaching them where the amount of informatioll they get is very small, thollgh the amonnt of education they reeeive is much larger than ill the other case ?-That opens the whole qnestion of payment by resnlts. 1 tlo not think we would get rid of your objection t.o tl10 result system by abolishing t.he payment,. The same temptation wonld exist if a child had to be preparcd for examination. So long as we examine, there will always be teaelJel's who will yield to the temptation to take the short ents, to-neglect intelligent tettChillg, 11Utl attempt to prepare mechanically, and YOIl do not get rid of that temptMion by abolishing payment by results, 80 long a8~ you have examination. Take' what I,01'd Clarendon, Chairman of t.he Commission OLl

Public Schools, said with regard to Eton some years ago; they had no payment by results there, but;, he said, they j,aught classics to' the ncglect of all other subjects, and' yet the boys showed very 3mall proficiency in those slIbjeets.

544. Is it reftlly practicable to introduce mannni trainiug, hand and eye training, and additional science in onf Statl; schools so long as we preserve the system of payment by results 1-1 do not think the payment by results will affect the introduction of manual training, hand and eye training, or Kiudergarten; it is all a qnestion of the time at the teacher's disposal. .

31 S • .1. Swindley, loth Suly. 1899.

545. It would not be a part of tbe school teacbing that would be taken into account at all in thc llayment ?-I eay wc need not do so ; we might do so, but wc arc not obligcd to.

546. It would seriously handicap those snbjects if tbey are not to be taken into consideration in the payment ?-I think it would, but we can bring pressure to bear ,by wit,bdrawing marks if those subjects are Hot satisfactorily taught, as we do now with certain subjects.' If a teacher bas neglected any portion of tbe programme, he is liable to forfeit a portion of the marks gained by the school as a deduction-it means a fine, oE course.

547. That system conld be extended to the hand and eye, the manual training, and the Kinder­garten ?-Yes, that is the comse we should adopt in the first instnncc. We sbould not include it in the payment by results at present. I think we should bring pressure of that ,kind to bear.

548. By lJf1·. Jenkins.-A kintI of coercive persuasion ?-'We sbould usc it kindly, but in cases of neglect !here would be that power in reserve.

iH9. JJy :Afr. Long,-Y ou are quite satisfied that the course of science in classes 4, 5, and 6, is a good one ?--I am ; I think it is in accord with the first educatiollal authorities.

fi50. Youlook npon it as a foundatiollal mental scheme?'-I do. 551. In connexion with specializing-for instance, at Ballnmt" do yon th:nk the children in classes

5 and 6 shol1ld give special attention to the sciences that underlie mining ,?-Thc difficnlt,y would be in filldiJlg teachers qLHili(lecl to teach thelll, and probably in finding the requisire appnratus.

552. Would the sume thillg apply to agricllirure 'and dairying in districts where that was carried on ?-Not so much to agricllltnre, but I could not speak as to dairying; I do not know what teaching would be necessary. I think you will find the courscs that hal'e been recommended are physics, chemisrry and physiology; those al'e the courses looked lIpon by most educationists as really necessary for a child, but the difficulty about teaching chemistry is that yon cannot, as a rule, have the necessary appliances in a primary school, thorefore it is necessary to rest,riet the teaching to physics and physiology, that the amount necessary to understand the laws of health.

553. Do yon think children should receive any special i leaching in dait'ying at State schools ?­I should question its practicability.

554. By Afr. PoUS.-YOll have nel'er seen it tested! ?-No; I do not know really \vbat is contemplated.

555. By Mr. Lonfl.-You hold that the science work in schools should be foundational, and not special ?-That is my view.

556. If we want to give children some information about germs that ~'1,nse disease and germs -that may be safely let alone, bow shall we impart it (-In connexioll with the health lessons, I should imagine.

557. \Vould yon prefer lessons ill a reader, or lecturctte:;; by a specialist, or object lessolls by the teacher 011 snch a subject ?-If it were deemed advisable to teach that subject, I should think lessons in Tile 81:11001 Paper; supplemented by oral lessons by teachers, would suffice. I do not tbink we could possibly employ experts for all the schools.

558. By fllr. Potts.-Do you think if the IJresent stnff of teachers were subjected to a course of practical lessons in teaching they could easily takeup those snbjects, sneh as dairying, supposing a specialist gave some lectnrettes to the teachers ?-Of course the iectl\l'es would be an advantage, but I should not like to express an opinion; I do not know how far you propOse to go.

559. By 1J£1·. Jenldns.-In tho present programme do yOll not think the work at preseut taught could be taught better and quicker in connexion ·with the wheeland axle, and pulleys and levers; that the tuition could be improved and the wOl'k shortened, thc same work done with much less labour by teaching the principle of moments ?-That wonld imply a degre-e,of advanced knowledge on the part of the children.

560. By Mr. Long.-Do you think r,he Department's, scheme of hand and eye work in tho now programme will carry ont the. objects you desire? - W 0 have not yet had any practical experience of it. From what we could judge of what w!ts being done elsewhere, aud from the text-books we havc ou the subject, we thought it was [\ judicious thing to adopt. • '

561. By Mr. 'Jenhins.-As a start. ?-As a tentative measure. 562. By.Mr. Long.-Do you know whether there was !tny idea of supplementing tbe hand and eye

work in centres, or ·replacing it by opening special classes in large centres for mannal work ?-That is what is proposed, to open special cll\sses, probably in wood-work, whell we get the organizers.

563. The Board did not recommend a commencemtllit at once, on account of not having the organizer ?-N ot a commencemen t in the ml1l1ltal work. \

564. By 1J£1·. Jenkins.-You take 11 good deal of notice of <Ira wing in the schools; what is your opinion of the charactE'r of the work done ill an educational poi itt of view 7-1 think it has been increasingly valuable, tLmt on tbe whole good work is being done, except I.hat the drawiag to scale and practical work is in many cases wanting in exactness. ,

565. How is that tanght I1S !l. rule ?-By the members o.f the staff mostly, but in the towns a visiting teacher commouly gives one lesson a week; he takes the freehand.

566. How is that taught ?-The proper method that we expect to see is that the tcacher shall have a slltJicient number of copies, so tha,t each child may sec the model 01' diagram in proper perspective', other­wise w.e desire that the teacher shall provide it sepamte copy ()n a smaller scale between each two children at least.

567. Is that carricd ont ?-Not fnlly, but as a rule tlU:l drawing is carefully placed, and the teacher draws it in the presence of the class bit by bit, showing how he draws it, and they must draw in the sallle way.

569, Two of us were present at some lessons where that wad not the case; is it common 7- I should 'hardly say it is common ?-I ought to say it is done in some schools.

569. Arc the rooms suitable fot' the work ?-Not very suitable; ill some cases they arc not so ligp.ted as to be very suitable, but they answer very fairly. .

570. Is there enough space, so that the copy can be seen ?-That would vary in different' schools. .

571. As a rule, is the room go.oll enough to .enable the children to hale a fair opportunity of seeing the medel ?-I think so. '

S. J. Swindler, loth July; 1899.

572. Are not the roOlH~ er(nvded ill miluy cases ?-We ought to aJtow ] O' sql!are feet of floor spo,ee for every child, especially in ):./le infant schools. '"

573., Have Y04 anyHling like tllt}t ?-In SOHle sphoolt> we llave; i~1 0r.hers we .lwve to \york up to 8 square feet, oj' even'lower than that. '.

574. 'fhe ~uechanical dm1yj!1g is ill1perfc~t!y tUllght Itt pres.ent wo~ld not say it fS 11l1perfeet~y taug4 t., ),m~ ~ve have a gR.od dqul 1..0 learp.

575. Is the work drawn to size ?-It is drawn to scale. 576. Satisfac~.orpy ?-111 some caSeS if; is v,ery weJ+ dOlIC, Lllt a gOQd deal has still to b~ dOlle to

secure propel' finish an.cI exactness. The junctions are not sq elen!! or'the Jines so qleft!l)Y !!nd ~ccllrntely drawn as they should Qe ; I should cal,l it a ,,'ant of exactJless. _ "

~77. W)lat 'practical geometry i~ taught in l!ip schOols ?-The pmctical geqmetry co!ltained in Poiuter sand Ablet.t's books; it goesnp to tile drawing of simpler plans q,nd clevat,ions.

578. Wpe!l you say thCl'o'is a wan~ of fi,Qish, do yqr, ll1ean walit of accHrucy ?-The lilles nre not as clean and the nngles n?t ns exnet, as they IDig~ht be. $ome work.J saw from S,o~II.h A~stl'lllia I,he ol.her day came up to my notIOn of what we want to tm'ive nt.

57Q. H yO~l told the pppiliJ to drt"" 1.\\'0 pal'aH..,ilinel? 2 inches np!»rt, they wpuld \lot be ,e:(Cuctly 2 incl,es apart ?-Sn?pose they dr:}w a \yindqw or 11001' to scnle there is a want of preqir;ioI) amlnentpess in I.he lines and angles i t!:u;l m..,n's)ll'ernppts are vpry fuir in some cases, in others they nre f!Jolllty. .

580. Yon ha:ve vi~itillg teachers, whnt is yopl' opinion of t.i)e working qf t.he system pf visiting tet~chers (or dra\yipg ?-l Ihink the opinion of the 111eFropoiitan illspectors gel~el'~lIy is thnL the 4mwing ha~ improvel1 under the ordjllttl'Y teaclmrs ; they 1lave the reqlli~jte geneml teaching skip nml t.h(:lY hayp tl~e eont~'ol over tiLe classes, but some qf the vjsiting teachers do very good work indeer).

58l, Axe YoU f,!!»tjsfieJ that PIP cl!i1c1re)ll!-re tptinpd in silfjlcient freedom of the han4 ?-J ~fHl lJa.rdly offer all opij:tiof) on the point.

582. In finishing off the freehand dra'wings, are you !>!It,i~fied t,he childron 1Fe taught to w9rk from th~e arm and wrist sufljcieptly, or do they work from the knnc)des '1--1 Cll/lllOt ans~wer tlll,t questiou.

!i83. Yon consider the system of visiting tcachers i::; not. so good .is where the tC,l!-!'h.er COn!lectc,ll with the schoql d0(38 tho whole of the work ?-ft. is difficult, to otJ(3r an opinion; if the spl'cinlist has the teaching aptitude nnd has the control, necessarily his work is likely to he better. On thc other h!tml, the visiting ten.ellCr with th.e necessary knowledge n~ay llot have the same con 1'1'0\ :1.1!<1 aptitude for teaching. I do not mean to depreciate the visiting teachers, becallse some of thcm nrc doirg ,excell.ent work. . 584. Yon t.hink th~ work has improved of recent years ?-r es. ~

585. '1'9 what do you ascribe that ?-To the increased knowledge of: t.he teachers; t.hey began wit II It slendel' knowledge and have now become tolerably proficient.

586. How did they att!J.in tlHJ.t knowl,edge ?--In some cases by attending classes, eithel' by private teachers or ~t the 1Vorking Mep's College, ,

587. flas the presenco pf tqe art jnst.ructor had anything tq do with it ?,-Yes, I thill~ 4e exerciscd n distinct, influence for good. ~

5~8. Are tJ1ere well mnr!;:ed l'jigns of his iqflllcncG among the teachers ?-:-I think that is one of the onuses .con tributing to t.ll,e il!lprov"'1I1~!l.t ill t,cachij),Q:, thc fact tlH~t we Imil lin IJrt ill~t1'llctQr.

589 . .!1y Mr· ?-Qn.q.-Did he ever hold cll1£50;; ?--.l tiC' not kuo\\'. 590. By j111'. Jenllins.- WJmt percentl)ge ()f 11,10 I'cg,nhu teq,chers arc qnalified to tpach !lmwillg ?­

I sh.ould not like to oller an op,)n.ion on the, POille:. J sl!oljld llke to say th:;tt the work o~ the pupil teachers who cOl1!C up for the aunul!-l exq,minatio!l hris markedly improved in the last'few exan}inutions, c,qnsequently t)ley ~re rou,ell bett,er qualified tc to,leh drmving'than the.y were Idew years ago. < '

591. U nelsr whut conditioll::;! do t,!Hlse YisiLil1g t.C!~chct:s go to t,he schools ?-They l)re ujost of them teachers who :Ire drawiug some ret,iring allowance from the State, having heen fnlly employed at a preyiolls period, they llOW villit once ~ week and receive n ld. a weck from eaf!!1 chilu-tl)qy get ro~)loy;r!»nce from' the Depp,l'tment.

592. Thc children help to eont.ribute to theh' 8alarie~ ?--;-They p::y lcl. II weel" U11t~eT the BOllrd of Ed!1cutionthe practice was to contribute lei. a week by the 8(:1te, allq Ill. a week Ly (,h.e child, lLl,d t.he visiting master'visited twice lL week for tjlree-qnnrters of an honl' eo.ch time. Now f~ child ~'ets one lesson from a vi!liting f~!\eh!'r, (lIl!J p!].~ from th.e school staff.

593. By J111-. B.!lI'1'e,t.-l)Q they te~<;h music in the Sllllle way? -: Yes. 594. JJy .~Ir. Jenfi~l~s.-;-Do t,he regula!' te!tch9rs pass tin eXalllinnt.ion in ,dm;yil]g ?-All wlto have

come up of II~t,e year~ have had ~o P!l:SS an exalllipatioll. ' 595. There are some teachers who 'Imve not papseq tl,1C exarr,inntioll,?·-There are som?, ,Pl'obnbly

many, who ha.ye not pp,ssed. . 59.6. }Vbat sllbje,ets do they pass il] now 7-The first year they PI1~s in freehand drawipg from the

flat; the second yenr ill pl'uetieql geometry, and the tl]ird year ill model dra\yiug, 58i. Do they haye to pass,an examirmtioll in blaek-board drawipgJ-No; bnt ~1!08e wno ,i?.o on for

a certificato or competel1CY h!].~c to pass a fuller itllq higher exall1iut,ltion. 598. Does that inclildc drawing Oll the black-board ?-~ o. 599 .. 1Ia\'0- you lo.oIm4 jnt9 the matt!;)r.of t91}chipg tl,le children dmwing 011 a bl~ck-boar(J ?-No;

I have not considered that. ' 600. lI~ro yo'u considered th~ question of te~ehi!lg writing in ,eonnexioll with drlj.wing 7-'No j we

teach writing qnite apart from-dl·awing. • 601. D,o yOUl'.eq~'re all the ,children !o conform to .01)0 style of hold,iug pleir pe]ls ?-Th.e present

1'llle is that they shall all uS,e the .one set of copy-b,ooks, but we allow tllem considemble latitude as to how they shall tC!tch that set of copy.:Looks. . '

602: Is that It good !'Ule, tlmttuey shall have OPe set? -There is H gqod deal ,to be saitl ou both sides, In Carlton there were three or foqr kin(Js of tea~hi(]g writing ill l,Ls many schools. Parent.s COl')1-

plained that when they moved frQl)1 Olle part to I1nothtif th,e cll,ilt) had to unle!lr1! wl)at he had already .learnt • . 603, Al'e you satisfied that the system of writing nt present t~qght is satisfactory 7-I am not

satisfied with ,om pr!,)sent !leries of copy~books, 111!U we have it before us to briqg out ei,ther all alteruative or on amended series. '

,604. lJy 1J{r, Barrf'tt.-W quId not 11 ugiform sy~tem- h.~ _tjle ~~st ?:-:-:-4 up..ifor!ll systel:rJ h.as Inuch to recommend it-there are grave objections to different systems prevailing in the sa.f!1,e l.o.<;ft~'ty,

s. J. Sw!ndleVl 10th July, laDe:

60ft .By 1Jfr. Jenllins.-Yon have flome ideal'in the teaching of writing ?-':"Ycs; in my case it is to arrive I}t a free legiblc haqd 1Vlthout fatigue.

606. That would come ycry close to drawing ?-I approy~ in t!le main of Vele Foster's system of teaching writing. _

607. By JJf1'. Bal'rett.-With regard to the extra subjects ',that, are }Jennissible to be taught by a head teacher, nccopling to the Third S!Jhedule of the ~duentioll ,Act certain subjects are set forth, b~t beyond that it is permissible fo], the !lead tencher to teach certnin, other subjects fOI' .which an extra fee IS

Pfloid-do you think th11t is n good "yste!TI ?-J think it is good to allow some fl'!3eqom in that respect:. 6p8. Do you Dot think thcre I1fe qUl}lified teqchers olltside'thc Department wbo could teach Just flS

well ?-I should think probably there are. 609. Does it not strike you as being unfair that a man who receiYes a salary from the Statc should

be permitted to teuch scholars in the'4th !tllli 5th classes, when there are men outside who can scarcely earn a living ?-I think the I"egislature hall in view ~he eOlrvenienee o'f thc parent "ery larg-ely; the child is on the spot, find I should think the Legislature had hl view the cOllveniellCC of the child nlso; it is a saving of time for him to rec~ive instruction in further subj0cts if the parent wishes it.

, 61 O. Refening to the hand .ano eye and lllanual tmi.ning, you say lIuder present conditions you nre not satisfied that any of the subjects that me now taught can be .H8p8nse(1 with; how is it possible then for any of ~hose subjects to be taught in the time usually allotted ?-W e imve reduced the teaching or I!cograpby very materially, so that all thatIs necessury can be taught in frqlll one to two lessons per week in the 6th class. \-Ye have also reduced t!Je teaching of grammar to some extent, and if necessary we thillk ;ve can further redu~e the teaching of hjstpl'Y. In I,his way spfficient ti~e can be found; if not, we shall have to further eOllsi4er the matter, and no dptl ht as we gained experience we could provide further time if reqnired.

611. Do yon think the system 'of horne work is sntisfactory?-I think so. Generally the amount of home work is not large.

612. In the 4th, 5th, and 6th classes, is not the home work pretty heavy ?-Not what comes unde!' my notice. I Jook at the hC!me 'Iesson-books, amI it Seems to JIle l the children !Jan do it ilf a !5omparatively short time. ,

.. 613. YOll said there 'yas a lack of il~rant teac)lers; what is t11e reasoq ~f that ?-BeC!~use there 4!ls been 110 special iqdncen}ent. to teachers to 4eYote themselves to jnf!tnt teachi!)g for one thing, and the absence of ~he mears p£ trail1ing il}f:ipt tenc)lers for q,pother. ' ,

tnt: Qughr, U)at tq !:te it special 'yor!~; nrc there sl!ecial qunlifications necessary tp teach young chil(jnm. What, J llle~tn is thjs: it is ppssjblc fol' r~ t~:)acber t<{ leach Eati~fnctorily the 3reI, 4th, al)d tith clfLsses, l;lut there is Ii spe,eial aptitpde peCes,,!,ry tp tene!! an iufallt closs ?-I think it is desil'lI,)le to get female teachers wrlO have a liki!lg aud ILRtit·l1lle for t!:lC work, to (l,evo'te themselves to Rpecjally qqali(ying th~lllm3Ive~ fpl' the pqst of iTJf~rt n)istr!:'ss.

. rI5. Spm'l year~ agq yvllen I'ep'enchrnent was forced l!pOn tl1e Depar~ment Ilid that affect the inf?p~ctors with r!3gnrd to tlleir war»:; that is to say, were the districfs very hugely increILsed ?-The di~Lric~8 '!\'ere increase~l to t~is extent that in!jteaci of abollt 2q dj~triets they were reduced to twenty, but at the sarne tirpe' a JIlalerit~1 ,red!lction was mnq!') ill some portions ofi ~he work.

616. Do yon think that the districts are too large for any, one man ?-I think the work is too much in ~olI)e djstrict"l. + thjI)!~ :t red)1etip9 in the w(Jr~ qf th~ inspectprs is rel}Hy lleecitul.

f:i17. By Nr. Jenllins.-That would lea(l to iuerensefi efficiency in the sep-ools ?-Jt shoplll do 8p. 618. l~y ilfr. Bat'1'et,t.-You ti)ink i~ would be necessary to appoint more inspectors to sl~tisfactorily

carry out the work ?-Thrlt is so as not; to. overwork the inspectors. Som.e of the inspectors IUlYe really becn ovenyorkipg thenW:lfyes in order to keep up with the work.

619. By .Mr. L01!U.- \-Ylwt is the average age pf the ~hiJdrcll in the 5th ILnel qth classes ?-The aver~ge age of the 5tr ()las~ is ftxed by regulation at t~irteen years six months. .As a mnt,ter of fact, the 5th classes largely ml! abclllt tw.elve yeari! nille mon}ps in well-taught silhools. The 6th clnss varies v.ery much. Yo).!. cn!ll!ot lILY ~lp'Yn apy pnrticlJlar q.ge ; it runs froIJl fpnrtl"en to fifleen.

q20. 'r~p position Q,f th!') DepnrtmfJnt in l'.cgard to qqalificntions of tel,lcl}el'S is that drawing stands 01) the SaIne level ILS g,,~pl111;tr or ~l'inlmetic; ,.he teacher has tQqualify ?-He bas.

621. By ffIr . .JenMrl~.-HfJ is no~ cft)le(!. lIpon to qualjfy ~n black-board ?-No, Q22. Th,ot:!gp JIO }),ill have to dfJPlOllstra~El on ,he black-qoard before his class? -Th~ teachers con-

stant.ly Ilet pmctice in it. ' .. t?23. By .Mr. L.llrl-q.--Whl,lt is the positioll of dPlwit)g lis to passes ?-A separatc pass is given to

each child. It stftnds on It lC\Tcl with grarnmar l}!}d geogmphy ill cOl1pexion ;yitll results. ' ti2t. py Mr. Jenlrins.-If? it of the sarne value as arithmetic ?-No. There are two pa~8es in

ILril,hmet,ic. Pi'll wipg is of tile !>a1lle vnlne /YS the oth!,,1' suuj~cts, 625. By il:l1 .. Long.-rY\)y al',0 tlJere tWQ passes in arithtrtetic ?-Becallse of the cxtensive charl)-cter

of tile sllbje!,!f;. rVe )!avc to gin) ,them t1)ree to fO,lr exercises inl1,rithmetje, and we coultlnot give a simple pass on it, aud also ou account of the intrinsic ya,lue of the subject when properly ta.ught.

q2Q. WlpLf, is tI,e nature of the l)roQ!l"fflS given ?-In the Jower classes a pass is given for working a simp)!l operatio!! ill ~he sin)ple rul,es of atlditiqI} or sUQtractjon, together with the mUltiplication table; Then a ljepari!-te tabIg js giveu for lluIJlfJratbn, ~lOtatjon, and ment/lol arithmetic.

,627. II'} ther.e pot a s.Elparnt,e pass fqr pr.oplep1s, to encourage teachers t.o devote time to ,operations that require thought ?-There is ~ 8ep~p~te llass for working problems in eOlljullction with mental arithmetic.

,. . 628. l$y .1Jf.r . .JfJn}til~s.-T/le're ~re gr~at !!omplaints it) t4e inspectors' reHorts tha.t those problems and p~ILl11ples al'J'l pi.cked oilt of previolls examinatioll papers, IlDd the children drilled up to a special standard in those tbings m.e,cbanicaUy ?-There is a temptation on the part of teachers to confine the examples to coliectiops of q)lestior!s that have been givfJll by insp,ectors, l)llt those problems cover a wide raI)ge and are ~very I!early flB exten.sive as Y01.1 will find ilf th.e text-books.

629. 4- goqd·teadler will finel it cheaper tQ ,teach his chil'dren properly ?-Precisely. q30. By the Chair-man.-wm you furnish your views abol)t the result system in writing; you

/lore all Q.~lvocat,e pf thfJ rgsl!lt Snt,e!l! ?-J am an ~(h:qcate of itjn so far that I recognise that we have an artificial condition of thing!> ip t4i~cplony. W ~ lm,y.ewithdrlL\Yp. ~O)1lJ'l.o£ the ordinary iqcfJnti:ves to industry;

5703. D

S. J. Swindler, lOth Jul)" J8fJO. 34

Ihe result system is ill 11 lllenSllrc a substitute for those inccntivei', and ~10 expedient'uaainst which the same' ?iJjcctioll8. OI'J!I'ei1ter object.ions eould not be urged has to.my knowledge yet been suggested .. I will send III my VIewS 111 writing on the subject. '

631. By 1JIr. PooZman.-lf theicuchers are not eompetent thov do not rise in the service?-Precisely. ' .

632 Is. there any system l>y which incompetent teachers are retired ?-Ifthey nre really incompetent, they can be sent befol'e'the Public Servioe Board. aIHI their servioe~ be dispensetl with.

\ . 633. By l1fr. Jenki1l8.- Is tbot often dOlle ?-Not very freqnently. It is Jillioult to jndge in my case, hecause tIle best teachers'desire to get into the metropolitan'district; hence my district wonld not contain many teachers of that sort.

J'ke n:·~tll.eS8 u:ultd few.

Adjourned.

FHJD A Y, 14TH JULY, 1899.

, JJlembcrs zn'esent:

TlIIWDOItE 'FINK, Esq., lVI.P., ill the Chair;

,.T. G. Barrett, Esq., I' J. H. MacFarland, E~q., I .. L.D." H. C. Jenkins, Esq., F. W. Pool man, Esq., J.P., C. R. I.ong, Esq., M.A., .H. W. Potts, Esq., J:P., F.C.S.

Samuel Summons, p1.A., SWOl'll anu examined.

634. JJy the Chnwman.-What arc Y0lt ?-Inspectol' of schools i'n thc metropolitan dist,rid. I am also member of the Board of Examincrs. I was ten evears in the Ballarat district.·, Previol1sto that I ,vas in the North-Eastel'll district. This is my 241h year in the Department,

635. 'l~o what extent has Kindergnl'ten been introduced in the COllllt,!,y <listricts ?-1 have It

very limited COlll1try' dislrict; it is il'emly a town district, tlwu!!h I have a few conntry schools. I alll trying to in trodllce the Kindergarten into those schools, tile same liS in the tOWlIS. "Ve hlwe dmwing, for example, on IGntiergni'ten lines. "Ve will have the same work in tile country as in the towns in the fntme.

636. What has actunlly been dOlle?-To a very limited extent as yet. It is ouly in a few special schools in town tlmt IIHlve got the Kindergltrten system. No. 450 is my best KindCl'gartell school; that

. is where Miss Monahan is teaching. I have other teachers who understand the system. Mrs. Goulden was out a few years ago, and many teachers attended her classes :md acquired a kno\\'!edge of tbe subject. I encourage th.em to read as much as they cnll. This is It new journal, 'published by Nelson, to help on similar work in Englancl- [ZJ1'odltcing a book]. Apparent.ly in Englaf]J they are not mnch JIlore advanced than we are, judging by my reading-. For example, in th:ltwing they aee not much more advanced than we are here, as l~ rule.

, 637. By 1111'. Jenkins.-You include drawing in Kindergarten work and hand and eye training 7-Ye Q

, it is the hasis of the whole tiling. . . . 638. YOill' criticism as to England refers to drawing ?-Not altogether. Drawing is manual

training, just like needle-work. 639. By the Chairman.-YOll regnnl Kindergarten and manual training as the hasis of the whole?

-1 8ay drawing is the basis of' all mallllal t.raining, anti drawing is so interwoven with the Kindergarten work that I uo not think you can separate them. Y 0l! fold a- piece of paper, and get a form from that, and I Ask them to pnt Oil t.he slale 01' 011 a paper the reproduction of that. Drawing is a mode of expression.

, 640. 1 lIudel'stamlyou are desirOllS of introducing Kindergarten wherever YOll call ?-Certainly, (i,n. What is your l'e<t~oll IOI' that ?-There are many reasons. I feel that mnch of our work is lISlt

practical enough; it i~ of too literary It character; it does not fit It child. for ordinary work. Another reason that' 1 think is It good olle is tlmt in this colony there is a great distaste for lllanual labour; nllli 1 t.hillk this lland nnd eye-training will tend to put the ordinary manual· labour i,ll.a more honorable light to a chile!. ,

642. By j1th,. Jenkins.-Ill a fairer Iight?-Yes, the cbild will value it as he ought. I often tell the children I wish 1 could do such a Hserul thing as make a pnir of boots.

. 643. 'By the. Cltai1'man.-Whnt is its effect Oil the education of a child's mind and faculties ?-Thut is a hig question. Take a little question in science. If I ask a ehild a question in science, and the child call put that down ill il, neat dmwing I cnn read it mnch quicker than I Clln if it is written in the' child's own words. He may have a difficulty in expressing hims~lf, but by this means he makes himself clear to me. .

64-1. Is it a fact that for so'me yenrs past, in your allllual reports, YOIl have been recommending impro\'ed teaching in science ant! Kindergarten ?-l have found fltult with the teaching in science, hut whetber I have recommended that, I callnot sny. I have complained abollt the instructioll g-ellerally.

, 645. 011 what gronnds ?-It is rather of too meclumie:iJ a mttnre. Our schools lire examine~, and the instrnet,ioll is too lllltch of the nature of preparing for that examillntion.

646. The whole system tends to hecomc a system of "cram" ?-My remarks apply not oniy to the State schools; they apply also to the secondary schools-they do the same thing with regard to the matriculation examination, and it is also trne of the Vniversity. Examinations are an evil, out a necessary evil, nnd

- apparently the evil is more than co~ntel'balancing the good tbat ought to he derived. Examinatiolls of our schools ought to be a sort of security to the State that it gets a retnl'll for the money expended; but payment by results I do not like for several rensons; it narrows the teaching. If It man is paid by it, there have to be certain rules drawn up by w hieh the examinations must be conducted, Ilnd I in town and the men in th:e country Blnst follow those rhles. There must be a uniform system, and· this, I think, narrows tbe

, teaching; the examination affects the teaching. and'it runs hetween two ropes; it is like a runner III It

r~iJe-thc child is kept. within those liues, and he must not go outside those lincs.

35 Sa.muel Sumnlons, 14th July, ]SI}9.

647. You think t,he pflyment by results systcm is a systcm that limits the development of illt~lligence in a child ?-I have always thought so. At the S!lme time there must be examinations of some kmd-we cannot get. !lwny from them.

64A. 'What arc your views as to the introduction to the schools of Kindergarten first and nla~ll1~tl training afterwards 1-T11e Kindergarten spirit ought to pervade all our teaching. Kindergarten I am afrll.l(l is rather 11 term to conjure with. The Kindergarten of to-day is not the Kindergarten of 20 or 30 years ago, and the KIndergarten that might be talked of twenty years ngo would not be applicable to the schools of to day.

649. You refer to the teaching of Kindergarten on modern Kindergarten principles?-Yes, in the Gcrmall schools the Kindergarten teaching is to twpl\"e or thirteen children, bnt we ha\'e no classes of that character in our schools.

650. Do you consider it possible to introduce Kindergarten in to the teaching 7-Yes, I do. . 651. "Ye arc not precluded oy thc size of the schools ?-No, there could be It sort of modified

Kindergarten. . 652. Would it involve any very largely increased outll1Y for thc school ?-I think so. Tile materials

will cost a lot, and we willlleed io have suitable furniture. 653. Assuming thilt YOll hnve the cp,pital out.ln.y for materials ami furniture, would the expense of

carrying on the school work be substantially increased as well ?-It ought not. 654. You think a properly instructed staff, lIot Bll bstantially larger ,that the present school staff,

given the I1pparatus and furniture, could carry ou Kindergarten methods ?-No, 1 do 110t tilink so. 1 do not think the present staffs are strong enongh; they are numerically strong enong]), but not in qnality, and there are other objections to''). . . .

655. You do not tbink that for thc present work of the Statc school system the present staff IS

effective enough '?-Not for the present work, npart from Kindergarten. 656. Are thers too many juniors ?-In the school I have just left, there arc three pupil teachers to

one assisl ant-there are 27 teachers ill the school; sixteen pupil teachers, fOllr monitors, six assistants, and one head teacher. ..

657. 'What is the number of pupils in the school ?-1,100, I thillk. 658. Will you say what should be the numerical strength of the staff in that school ?-It ought to

be as strong as you can get it. My idea of teaching is that yon cannot have too sirong a staff of teachers -I wonld have them all graduates if 1 could. I thought the old system WIIS n very fair one; we ,had an assistallt to ~~ pupil teacher-I regret that we departed from that.

659. How would that work out in relation to this school-what ought to be the staff of that school under the,old system 7-There ought to be eleven assistants, eleven pupil teachers, instead of sixteen, and four monitors. . .

660. That, wOlild be a DlOre effective staff 1.:....Those pupil teach'ers are not permanent teachers, that is one of the troubles. Many onhe pupil teacpers arc quite as gOOlt as assistants, but when the head teacher starts the year he is uot certain he will have those pupil teachers until the end of the year; they may get promotion.

661. By Mr. Foolmcm.-Do yon suggest that when a pupil teacher Starts in a school at the beginning of the year he ought to stop .there uutil the end of the year ?~No; I would snggest that you should make the assistants stop in thc school fol', SilT, two years; provision is being made for that now; 1 would not' allow them to change about. ,

662. By the CAai1'1nan.-You say that if the schools were fully equipped yon would have a proper staff to teach Kindergarten ?-I feel assured our teachers are capable of doing t his work.

663. You would require no bigger staff for the Kindergarten than for the present work ?-There are a certaiu num bel' of subjects to be taught at present-YOll would have to modify some of them.

664. By ~~Jr. Jenhins.-Thosc teachers would need some instrnctioli before they could teach Kindergarten ?-No doubt' they would requii'e some inst\"Uetiol!, bnt they arc int,elligent people aud could lie instructed.

665. By the Chairman.-They could readily be trained ?-I think so. 666. You would like to have propel' expert organizers to do that I would prefer to see au

expert organizer to train the teaehers and guide them. 667. Assuming that YOll have a staff of the proper strength, aud the applwatus and material, it would

not require more money to earl)' 011 that system than the pl'esent one ?-It ought not; there would be a little more expense in regard to the teachers; the present system is the retrenchmellt system.

6613. By .L~fr. Burrett.-Yoll said the staH' was not effective enough; that is io say, that practieally there are not enough teachers in the Department to do the, work ?-N 0, 1 do not mean that; they are not strong enough; we are e,xpflcting too much from those young people.

669. Why is there this state of things in t,he Department ?-·The only reason I have ever heard is retrenchment.

670. You think retrenchment has affected them to that extent; it has affected t,he efficiency of the teaching staff?-Of course it has; illstend of assistants we haV'e pupil teachers and monitors, who are learners instead of teacher!!. '

671. Through the system of retrenchment there are schools illthe colony where there are inefficient teachers ?-In what Sense do yon mean; they are efficient as monitors and pupil tcachers, but 1 canllot say that, a learner is as efficient as a teacher.

672 .. It is possible that ill somc schools there is a lllck of assistant. teachers, aud the head mastel' has to take teaehers from the lower grades of the staff and put them to work for which there ought to be mOTe efficient teachers 1-1 think so ; our system .is not an elastic system; political influence has had a good deal to do with the state of our schools.

673. By tAe Chairman.-What alteration in the subjects taught would the introduction of Killder~ garten illvolve ; would it mean leaving out some of the present subjects, altel'ing the hours. substituting new work, or generally what changes would be made in the work or the infHnt school ?-Jt is a big questioll, The present programme is rather heavy; I would eliminate some of the present progmmme apart from Kindergarten or manual training if I had the power; I think it is necessary to eliminat.e it to some extent if Kindergarten aud manual training i",introduced, though 1 do not think Kindergarten or manual tmining

D2.

The Librar¥, Par'iam~nt of V/~fnrJfi(f

>y.cmll'l tl!-ke thf3 p!l!-e<l pf sll~h subjects as, drawing, reaeF;lg or_arithmetic. I thought I{:i!!uergarf:eu alid :q)~nllq,l tr!,ining would Qe I!- sort of accessory to our ~clJOols to give the child a l:iip·s. We mpst h~v~ reading, arithmetic, and writing-; we must cultivate th'l geneml illtelligence of the chilq tirst, a~d !)n i!1telligent t-eacher cal} cnliiv:1te the intelligence through rea<iipg, wrtpilg. and arir,hmetie, no 90ub~; at the sa.me timp we want something ill the way pt mam!ftl worl} iqtroduc~c), aWl ill t!je hallels ~)f itl1 intelligen~ tSl~cher gpo~j work will Le clone i but if We havc not g()t illtp,iJjgent telj,chers in 0\)1' ~!!hqoJs J;h~ result will be nq I!~ore. profit~))le to the chiM than if he isdmpng w i~h relrdjng, wri~ing, ant! aritl~metic.

674. So. far as Kindergarten is concerned, you do not think it will involve cutting out :111y of the 'Yprk ~I~t)t !l~ly of the infant fjhilqren n,re ~oing ?-~ do nop ~ee whlft yon <mn cnt Ol)t. qf th~ infant room ; I do 110t t!nnk there is apy pressure there; if yOll have It strRng st!~f!' yC!p pn.l} 40 nlllC~ \.JEltter work ~han with a weak· staff. ' , . . .

G75. 11~ the inlflllt dass!,!s (:If the sc;hool y'on cap try Y.OJ1l' Ipuqergart~n prinpip'!~s ,yithopt sacrificing !!>!ly c:f the prcsellt subje!3ts ?l thflllc sq. . ' '. ,

676. \Vould YOll,/tHel' the homs '?-No; I think they have qllite enough now. (j77. You mightilaye to I!olter the lilll~s of pile (mlerent s!'!l:Jjecfs ?-Yes, ~inging might get less time,

and other snbjects might get less time. ' . , . . . , . t':)78. ;Kipdergl»rten could be in!;ro~llJcec! )vithol!t any radi~al alteration ?-A cgrtl!oin amount of

Kindergarten.' , .

679. Do YPp :1PP1'OVe qf thQ vie1Ys of people Hl;;:eMi§s .Mon~111PJ n!l~t otherB, wl1p 1hink tlV1t the )Vhple of ~bo infaqt h1SHuqtiolJ in the lower classes ~hQI)W qe or~il1aergarten ll)!ithqus ?-.J: WOP]fl ~ill=e to !lee Kindergartep metho<ts right tlHQHg11 the wh01e ~el!ppl; i~ is a tn.11gihlflth!ug; it i~ really e~Peri~ell~ip.g; Q

if a child is getting lessons in paper I would like oach ohild to hn.ve a p\ece of plfper in ~is 4i!+lYj • ~80. Ihve yon tbOl!ght out tile spbje~F of !llllllUal trairfng ?--+ es, I eVen ~yent to ~he extent of

sllggesting it in olle of my schools; + l)o~~eq' tllr te~pher ~~ giv~ t}' s~!!q~4 1~~s0!1- p..s I fO!!I1!+ hp hll-4 gh'e~ one lesson; HlI1f is pUllch lvork-[prpducitl9 q SPCfiiitel!]-:-and I Lhip.j, it is very u~~fHl WRrk ; the' 'tools I!ry l,tOl):!p-l)laq[1 ~P~!Sl ~4!3Y 11rc l}lade lly t!~e tp:lphcl'; t4a~ i~ th<i kind of tpl"c4ipg I like t,Q see; l ~il:!l th~~ wood-work. '." .. .

681. By lttr. Long.-That cQ!llef? 1l!J.de1· ~he pe artmen~!sj~E!m "wood-wQrk"?-J j;hipk so. ti82. Is pro:,i~iol) lll!lde Itt th3;t scllopl fpr doing F,Qrk genpmHy ? -:;-:~o, ~t i!l jp~p tj1e ~l:!cpnrage-

P.ltln! ()f tIle C!JIfPhElfS. Tj.le ten,eher 1vho teaches thi~ ,"'(ood-wor!!: i~ a very handy )'l)j1l1. J Imv!" ~].}gge,~~e4 l?tra'r p1aitir!g. There i~ a hat rpapufactory h!L!1py, and + ~hO!fght pile teac!w!' l~igh~ go in th~fe aBel lea:!!: ~omething about straw plaiting. ':' ..

G8~, Th!3re is p,.o a8~UTllnce that ~hH understaIpl the t!l!~~hing oft!lqse Pltrticmlw q,rt9 results show that ~!l~y llf!qf3r~rlffHl i~; thi~ ,'{pr/,}~ FI~13 re~}llt pf RUI' p~l'c1.!lf!>r and rpy ~llgge~Hl!g thq,~ ~I)is ;yqrb: should be carried on. I did not interfere until the examimttion was over, and theil 1 said-" :JSIqw Y()H ;yi)l hay!" tp n)!J.k,e an attmript/i ~q~e al'!l goipg FO tlJ.l~fi up ~yoq(k~Rrk or s~ring-wor~(. ,

q84. ijpw m~Y !A~pe~~prs Hnqerstal1ci th9s;; rnfl~hq(f~ aJl~l Jl~r<:l ~~<:lnth<:lm pl'acti~fld in their higp<:l~~ form ?-1 cannot say; I rip 1~8t kppw !ypat HF~ ({fhers l~pmy 1~I~out it. ' I do PPF kmny that t lIIiV~ ~~!.'p very nmeh aq,ont it ; I know a little about seience, and have read Ii good deaL

68q. You t!lke a generlfl intep~st ill thos!'J subjtlct~ qf t:J1ltllual ~:!t!!1ing iH!!! YOlt ~ry !J.Ild !3;!lCOurage l?qrit~ of th\l teappef~ ~l+ ypll~ 4if!tric~ ?-:-+ ~~ ; we h;td Hot tp~ pq~er Refqr~.' .

68p. WoulrJ H not be a gr!lp,<t l)clvap.~~ge if tll!"y 'yere spepi!J.l1y tl'aiqed or illBtnw~erl in t.hi~ P.lll'tlPH!ll:f work ?-It would be lin advantage, but at the saine time they can rlq spm~ of t!~is W9rk, !l:ll~P, ,.hinl>: g would be ~ pity to stop, thelp. We raYe fO !>tar~ soqner or l~ter. ' , .

. 687. You see np disadvq,ntagEl in starting in I!-n U!fflysterlmtjc ~Yll-y ?--:'+'4er~ is \19 }lllsn~t;Jnifttic wI!-y_ a1;>out it; I want tQ find O)l~ 40w f!tf wtl f:l!!>P go in RUT f31em)}ntary fll.)hool~. . . . ,

688. Can yem find opt if Y04 start before j;he ~fj1;ph!'lrs are th()l'onghly 'yel) ins~n!cte4 jn it ?-Som~ 9f them are, and .J: nwy lIS wpll l}tiliZe thefI! if I cfH1; tllis If!Qdel S!lOWS w11!l-t tbey OlfP qp. ~all1 lltilizing

r Miss M~nagl1qll to illstl'!lpt ot!lers ; I hq.ve got my te,~c4~r~ gOfl1g W her: 689. Is tlmt a departmental order ?-1'\0 ; I suggest it to th<:,lm, nnd I have to recomrnenll to th~

, Department; I pick only people w fiR 1 tllin~ ~yill pen~fiF RY HIC iustrqp~ioll. , q90, r QlI !+p.vp the power of ~I'lpding tHer!l to her i-I h:~Yfl HlP p(:Iwer tQ r!ieOlmnelH1 that they may

be allowed to go. . 691. By q!e G{!i'finnq:!'!,-PIfP yql! gl \'13 )ls q. ~19zpn F~!t~hrrs ilS 1'I:~lJ (H!lllifiOlt a~ Miss :MoI1!J.!Ul.Tl?-

I t)lin1< + eoulcl girl! Yon hll'lf~Lt'flo~(;lJl Whq ,vjllle!tyen t!l!l vrhR)f'l !urp,p: .J: H1ilf!):. it il" it pity II,) it Qtf. . , 692. Y ()}i ~vant It Ptlr~Rl1 WhR CI~U ~d)lCll~P f!H~1 inSLfuef in ~!li!l met-hod of instnw~lOp ~!i

ar~isan iyill not tIC); 1. think, with th!3 help' qf ~~e ~eac!~el:s! We cl)P illtro4n~~ Hlfl fSy?t~m:. . 693. 4.ss11!lliqg Vha} t!le f<oachillg st~tf in Fho !lcjlOQI Wf\TO el!!!J.Jifi!'ld to teac/!. whfi,t !1ltc rMion 'f(HlliI

you make in the school work; how long !tr~ .nw guhlg tB Ila;;p Hle nUt" II!! I ips!n1!!tjop pel' wppk qr p.ef day, and !tre you going to ftdd that to the prcsent sellooi work:, or snpstiLnte U; for tllr pr!3sc.nf scllqol work f ,-I would not like to see the sohool hom,S prolonged, but I would like to see the preseut progn~mm~ tlghtcneel, :I: wquld strilm Ol!~ 'P!1rSillg alt.0get~er; 1 ~YOll!t1 mlf~e grnrmnar !'i)lp'~errie!!t to cOp:lJJ.osit.ion. T~aching gmnvnp.r to the ~rd chfss, di!lt~]lgqig;hing yerq~~ llPuns, artie~e~, antl p~p!pnal w()nemn~, ~p HRt 9r groat valne to a child, find if it \\'ere left out I thillk he would be the gainer.

~9f· Yon ",OI!fU leav!3 R!!t grll-1PHHtr t9 plt)~~ nT. ?-'tes, -+ floPl inRline!l tQ fhinl~ i~ j~ bpyonc1 the e~naoity of the p!li1d-YOll have to teach i~ i~ !L lPPChi!'!licn.l Wf!.y-Y01} liq.~f3 to slJ:Y-:-" , T~e' i~ a ~}(:{i!+Wr1 and wherever you see a 'the" YOIl must look for the lloun ;" it i~ i~ !rIP~ltu;picfl'l way: pOl~~ p'~op'le !Pll }ne, jt l)enefit~ ill the matter of clllssificar,iQP, and look ~p'qll H l:l~ a. !itF!f3 !ogie in ow sR!Hlq!~1 bllt 1 dqqpt that.

G9p. DR Yoll ~Ilipk gr;tllllnar iHl t~pgltp j~ too ~hstract fQr a f!11i ld of +qt nlJ:fS ?-l trinlf gr!j.)T!mar is too abstract for trle 3rc1 c+alis-~ 'Y1mF !t, chilll t() b~ ?-l{!e tq wri~~. I ~lp ll()P think Q~~llg Il:hlf3 toji!lFjn­gnish HonllS, verbs, adjectives, and personal pronouns will help him tfl mH his vif3\\'s !lPOll Pfl'Ile!'. qll1gjng 1 would c!lt dp,yn ;t good deal-+ wRP~4 view P!M 111qre ~s l1 qt d!~~ip!i1fp:·· . .. ...

6Q§. Would yon alppl' t!\e gC8gmphy ?-I do not ~hill~ ,Yon C!!J1!d 'reH !~Iter ge~gn.phy-:-yqll mi&,ht. a1t13r it lligher JlP, but !10t here; it i~ an interestjl!g ~llhjept !j.IJd wpll withi!l the Cl].p~ci~y Rf a. !Ohll}l;

697. Go throllgLI cq,e4 cl,!ss and give l!~ YRW vio}Vs of the :tlteratioqs ?-:-.t flR f!~~ thi}lk I would ~OllOh cl~ss IT., o~eepf. ill !>lngfqg. W p giYe hy}> l!3s~ons !!- wepk ~R tfU\~; I thin~ OP!3 te~so!ll\ 1yoek ?'H§5~F ~q h\3 ;Hl1ple. W!-, Cl1nnpt tml} H1Clll pll~!!'rti~i'1 ; ~pIHJ!l!ng p4!1!f! til ~iltg PY !'lil'f is 1}~ ffiH!lR ftS iYil P!lU- ~~p~eh

37 Samuel Summons, 14~h July. 1899.

If they sing sweetly and softly that is sufficient, so as to make it a means of relaxation instead of instruc­tion. What I take from singing I would give'to qrawing ill tlmt class, I cannot disassociate drawing from hand and eye training, that is the basis of it all.

698. Yon wonld luwe approved hand and eye training in place of grammar for class III. ?-General lessons I think might go, and in the 2nd class a180-1 put in their plnce hand and eye training. If you read educationists they will tell you yon mnst have object t.en,ching-I wonld have t.bis kind of band and eye training.' I uo not think lessons on salt, and cummts, and sugar are a success.

699. By lJlr. Lang.-Are they in the present programme? -Yes. 700 . .By the Chai1'man.-What is yomo bjection to the general lessons, are they not the right sort

of hand and eye training?-General, lessons are simply giving instruction in common fn,cts ; they are intended to cultivate a child's observation, but I t.hink we might take this work in their place with more profit. In class IV., the child is getting older-lwonld cut out the parts of speech right throughout. I would have analysis, and make it 'subordinate to synthesis or composition-teach ll, child to write a dBcent sentence. The real thing that exists is the sentence; the first thing a child does iR to utter a sentence, he does not trouble ahout tile words. We commence with the words, whereas we ought to commence with~the sen­tence, We ought to make cverything subordinate to the expression, you get the classification at the time. If you break up a sentence into two parts, sllbjecl, and predicate, you have classification, and you can then break it up into four parts; it is more intelligible to the child and easier work for him. I would strike out the theory of singing in class IV.; that gets an hour and a half a week-we could spare three-quarters of an hOllr there. Then as to history in the 4th, 5th, and §th classes, I would make it the same period, and I would make it not English history but British history, history that influences our 0wn times. I should teach Oll\' children with a view to their becoming citizens. I would go back to George II. Facts abont Alfl'ed or William the Conqueror are ,·ery interesting, but they do not bear upon our times. I would begin at George II.; that is quite far cnough back. My object in doing that is to save time. I would have the same history in the 4th, 5tb, and 6th classes-at present we IIave three 'periods ; we have one period in the 4th, a second in the 5th, and a third in the 6th, and, uufortunately, most of our children leave at the 4t.h, so thoy know no history worthy of the name-they stop bcfore Henry VII., so pra~tically they get very little real history. I do not know that there is much more that I could touch. .

701. Would you alter grammar in the 5th and 61h classes ?-I would like to see parsing of sentences go altogether. .

702. Would you alter the character of the geography teaching ?-I think I would cut it down in the 5th and 6th classes. When I went to school we were never taught any geography; the only geography 1- would teach in the 5th and 6th classes would be physical gcography.

703, Yon approve of introdUCing the hand and eye training ?-To a limited extent. 704. Have you Hnything to say as to classes V. and VI. as to altering the general lessons ?-I have

considered the whole matter, alld those amended regulations as to gencral lessons represent my ultimate view. In the small schools we have groupeu them so that thc 4th, 5th, and 6th classes are only taught the 5th class work. The regulation says that in. 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th class schools the 4th, 5th, and 6th classes may be combined for gellerallessollo, thc work prescribed for the 5th class to be taken; that is on page 9.

705., Is that the result of the mature views of the Departmen t, or thc result of the financial necessities consequent 011 ret,I'enchment ?-I think, it is wise to do that. Those classes do not have their lessons together in the larger schools; in the smaller schools they do it to lighten the labour,

706. They are better taught where there are soparate teachers ?-Yes. 707. Then this is owiug to economy ?-We do it in othl:'r things, too-we haye to do it in the

smaller schools, The knowledgc that is under general Ie SllOIl S for the 4th, 5th, and 6th class schools every child should know; it is like the foundation to sdence; it is. a tangible thing YOll are dealing with; a ,pump or a spirit-level arc things that yon can handle.

708. You have not specifically indicated where the manual training should be introduced?-You only want two hours a week; 1 think that ought to be ample; in fact, I think an hour or an hour and .a half ought to be sufficient in the upper classes. '

709. Would the alterations you suggest be equal to omitting two hours a week of the present work ?­I think so-it could be managed--it would be wise to have the teachers meet together and arrange it.

. 710. Have yon any !!uggestioD.s as to'altering the science work in the school ?-It says-" Teachers in permanent charge of schools may substitute for general lessons an equivalent Humher of elementary lessons in any approved science." .In a number of my schools I have sllch things as electricit.y taught, and well taught; that is, a child nnderstands slIch things as the working of the telegraph, the telephone, and electric light. The subject' has to be taught practically-yon cannot teach it from a book-you must get a cell there, and explain the cell to tlH1 child-it is a tangible thing that the child has to haullle and see,

711. That teaching is very sat.isfactory in some of the schools? -Yes. 712. In what proportion of those Be-hools wonld that be the cnBe ?-I darc sa,y seven or, eight out

"'.. of nbout 40. 1 have had some teachers take up such a subject as chemis!.ry, cyen in the 4th class;' of \, course it is very elementary-such work as the chemistry of water, the composition of [til', and the

nature of fire. 713. Are those taught Ollt or" books ?-No, I want the child to be able to do the thing for himself. 714. Out of the whole 40 schools how many are furnished with the necessary apparatus ?-The

simpler the apparatus the better-those seven or eight schools are furnished with the apparatus. 715, Speaking of your district as a whole, the teaching is not systematic ?-No, my influence is

not strong enough. I have not power enough. If thad power I would have manv things. 716. Can you order it to be done ?-No. • 717. Do you not consider it is ordered to be done by those regula/,ions ?-No, it is the choice of the

teacher-I have only to appeal to t.he teacher; some of those high-minded men will take a hint. I have had them thank me for suggesting it for the benefit they got from it themselves.

718. Are some of the teachers untrained or lacking in aptitude to extend their cducation in those directions ?-Our teachers are t,rained, ,but many lIlen as soon as their training is done stand st.ill. Our schools are no better or worse than any other profession; we have some mmi who are always learning something, but there are other men who aro standing stilL

Si:Ullue] Slllllrnons, 14th July, 1800. 38

719. The staff is genemlly efficient for their ordinar:r work ?-Yes. . 720. But, speaking of spccit'tl work, if they are not abl3 to take up this work at once with effect,

is it bec:lllf;c tlH'Y are not, qualified by reason of wallt of aptil.ude, or because they have not been specially t,mined for I,he work ?-I have men who can do almost anything; they have lho ability. On the (Jtber hawl, I have :1s~ista:Jts who are only fiL to. take a 2nd 01' 3rd class, and I have as,istants who can take allY d:lS8 in it school; there are a large' number of fair people wha can just do.fair work-they can teaeh a 2nLl, 3rtl, or 4: h das", but beyond that you ,vould be taxing them-too greatly.

7'21. Taldllg the work you refer to as being so well done, Iyould not a proper course of training turn out a qllallfied teacher of arernge intelligence able to teach all those things efficiently ?-I do not know, I dOllht it-t.he materia'! must he thf're.

722. Tttking the pupil tf!:1chel's, could Ihey not be effectively !mined to illllstrate electricit.yand to tea.ch it as well as algebl'll, and the higher analysis ?-Fully 50 per cent. coulu.

723. Are tho~e subjects harder to'learn ?-No; they are more interesting. . 724. Do )'011 say elementary science must be a closed door to 50 per eent. of the teachers, even if

they nre properly tanght ?--Perhaps I am over-estimating it-to many scientific men it is a closed door p1'llctically-they do it in a mechanical way. My evidence refel's to large sehools; perhaps I am illflu~llced too lllllch by that. I.think the nverllge teacher could do this work, but snppose you are started as a juuior assist.Hnt in a large school in the 2nd or 3rc! c1as::5, and are kept there all yom days, YOll are not apt to get the work ready for the 5th or 6th class. _ '

725. That is a qnestion of organization-assuming you ,have proper organization, which means that· a teacher sholllJ not ue set to teach what he l,as not learnt to teach-would there be any more ditnculty in qU!llir~'ing a teacher to tencll those subjects than the ordinary subjects ?-I think not.

'i26. In view of the proposed depal'ture towards mannal training, would it be it greai, advautage to have the Training College re-esrablished 011 proper lines ?"-Certainly it wOllld.

727. Can )~OU get on withont it ?-1:\0, we cannot. I think the absence of a Training College is a great de'fect. •

728. Would you say, as the result of your strictures on the inefficiency of some of the teachers, tl~at the Department is not at present organized for the wholesale teaching of those subjects ?-I do not. thiuk it has ever been organize!i for the wholesale teaeiJilrg of those snbject.s.

729. You wonld likc to see the college started ?-I certainly would if it is on the right lines-I am lIfraid .we nre too conservativH.

730. Is not that another name for ignorance on. the part of the Department ?-I would not say that; perhaps the Eclilcation Department is hampered by outside restrictions. .

731. D0 von mean want of funds. ?-N o. Take the classification of our teachers; that is a mat.tet forced llPon the Department-it is not. elastic, it i~ very nneJastic, and 80me of the faults are due to it­

'that has been forced upon politicians in our land, to prevent interference with the appointment of our teachers.

732. Whn.t is the effect on the teaching ana the classification-is it a mechanical system of apP?int­ment ?-It is. A person is appoin ted to !l. school whether he is desired in that- school or nqt-if he is top of the list and applics fol' it he gets it.

733. His position on the official list determines the appointment, ant! not the character of the school, or t.he nature of j,he work to bc done in it ?-I understand so. .•

. 734. Yon insist upon the importunce of drawing.in nll its stages as the foundation of all propel' work ?-Yes.

. 735. ''''lInt do you think abont payment by results-if this new system he· introduced should payment hy results be maintained in connexion with it ?-It can be maintained if it is ordered, but I. would wipe it ont-I would have an examination of some kind, but I wonld have no payment by results.

736. \Vhy is it unsuitable to this new work ?-I do not think it is more unsuitable to it than to any other snbject. . '

737. What arc your objections to it ?.:.-I would not like it myself to begin with. 7 3i'S. By the preSel]t system you have to examine and inspect according to the system of payment

by results; that yOLl think is inequitable and mechlwical ?-I do, and the lllan is not paid by results. It is nil inequitable system 'that leads to mechanical work ..

739. Why does it do t.hat ?-The pltymcllt by results is inequitable in this way-take the school wtIere I nll! in:ipectillg now, where t.here are 26 or 27 teachers; on'ly the .six assistants and the head teacher are pl1id by results; the others have no interest in it ; those seven teachers are paid not merely on thcir own work, hut Oil the work of others.

740. It exellldes from remuneration for scbool work a large number of other people who have done the work 7-Yes, and 'apart from that there may be 'weak teachers. The whole thing is boxed up together. The weak tencher benetU.s and the strong teacher suffers. But there is a more serious objection thl111 that, that. the chilJ sntters; I think it narrows the work. The whole work of our schools, at present at any rate, is to fit the child for that examination .. You make ·as many short cnts as YOll can, and the child has to /' g~thepu~8. . ~

7,U; Tlmt system shouhl go ?-It wonld go to-morrow if I had the power. ./ 742. How would yon test tllC work of the school ?-By examination, bllt hy a more libe(al

exnminatiou; and an examination of a different kind-this has to be on It unifol',m ~tyle or" pattern. 743. 'Vhat examination wOllldyon have ?-1 would vary my work. 1 might come into the school

and ask the teacher to examine the class. • 744. Is 110t that considered the most approved mOllern metl1o(l ltdoptcd in England nnd other COlll1-

tries ?-It tloes Hot do to conjure with England; we want to know tho circumstances of the place. I am dissaHsfieu with the iilforma(ion we get fro111 other qllarters; it is misleading.

745. By Dr. 11iacParland.-Do yon not think it would be of mlvantage if there was more science leaching introduced into the schools OIl good lines ?-I am afraid yon ml)st take into aeCou11t, the age of the child. 1 do not j,llink you conld get allY moro into om- schools than we ha vo at present. Yon lllllst cultivate -the general intelligence of the child first, and these things are accessory. The pity iE that some strollg man docs not take 0111' system find make it into 1\ nniform whole. If you have fi conference of inspectors each Ulall has bisviclVs ; and if he is a strong man, his intlne~lCe tells. Yon will notice' in our programmes

39 Samuel Summons, ~4th July, 1899.

there are sometimes two systems running side by side; dIat is the explanation of it; but if you could get some stJ;;oug man who would consider the child at his tlifferent stages, he could draw up a scheme. . 7 46. Would it not be ad vantageolls in the State schools to have mOl'e science teaching than yon hlwe at present; the amount of time gi ven pel' week at present to science teachillg is about an hom a week. I understand a great denl of that science teaching is done without the lise of apparatus either on the teacher's part or the children's part ?-I am afraid so ; that is faulty. It is of no vaItte at all ; in fact, I think it is rather injnrious.

747. If a tencher has some enthusiasm about scientifi(l teaching, and takes the work np in his school; is there any direct encouragement by the Department ?-Of course he gets his pass in the 5th and 6th clas;es, and this worl< can be taken into account in tbe merit grant of 6 per cent. ; but that i$ necessarily very small. •

7 4~; In speaking of payment by results, .do you not considcr the kind of examination necessary in connexion with that system is partidllarly inapplicable to science teaching ?-I do.

749. The temptation of a teacher is to giVEdnformation to the childL'en which they can reproduce for the examiner, rathcr than to educate them ?-Yes, our examination must be in writing, but somc inspectors say it must be oral. If I stand before a man's chss and estimate the work, I must satisfy him; the written answer is there, and he cannot quibble with that. If I ask the child to describe the tube of a barometer or thermometer, and he cannot do it, I put my cross on it and say-"That will not do.", Another reason is that the tax of oral work is very heavy. I have about 15,000 childl'en to examine.

750. In examinlltioll on the science part of the general lessons you could not give more 011 a par­ticular subject than a few questions ?-We give three questions to each child. I used to give five ques­tions to euch child, but we'dropped it down to three to save time.

751. If this Commission cOllsidered it desirable to introduce science teaching into the State schools, _ there ,,'ould be a necessity for a complete re-organization so far as the science teaching is concerned ?-No. As far as an examination is concerned, there is a good deal.of proper teaching of science; but thel'e is also a good deal of improper teaching of science. .

.752. In YOllr own district, in how many schools would you say the children receive science teaching on right lines ?-You cannot say schools, because the work is given to classes. I think there is a certain amonnt of good work done in the greater number of tIle schools. .

753. By Mr. Long.-Do you think if our present programme of general lessons were properly taught it would be a satisfactory training in science for the children ?-I think the 4th, 5th, and 6th classes would be quite satisfactory; it is a sort of foundation of science, but it depends upon the teacher; if you put this programme in the hands of a good man good work will result.

754. If it is satisfactorily done you would not wish to alter it ?-Xo, I would not burden the child any more. .

. 755. If yOll have special work in chemistry and electricity you accept thut, and if the man likes the work you think you get better work than with the general programme 1-Yes, that is my position.

756. As to gronping the cl~sses, why are the 4t,h, 5th, and 6th classes grouped for science and history in small schools ?-BetteL' work is done; it is better for the man to gi ve one good lesson.

757. In considering special science work wouhl YOIr recommend different sciences for different parts of the colouy; for instance, in '1\ mining district the sciences underlying mining, and in a dairying district the sciences underlying butter making; do you thit;k it is practicable for us, to give science lessons on subjects such as those, localizing the science for the needs of the people in the State s<'hools ?-A butter man will want a pump and a well; I think the provision made at present is snfficient.

758. You would not care to set aside the Department's programme f0r allY special work in special parts of the colony ?-.A man has got the liberty now. ~t says-" Tcacher~ in permanent charge of schools may substitute for general lessons an equivalent nnmber of elementary lessons in any approved science."

759. Would you 'wish the teachers in .dairying districts to set that .foundational science aside for special science in dairying ?-I wouM like the teacher to give instL"UctioLl to the child in subjects of the kind if he could do so, but as to compelling him to do so I do not think I would.

760. You think that science might be set aside fOI' something: more profitable in certain part~ of the colony ?---:To a certain extent it might; I would like to fit a child for life;.I would like an elastic system.

761. Do you think the teachers could do it efliciently on'good educational principles if they took up this special werk ill special districts?-Yes, I think so, as a rule. It wonld depend upon the teacher; if he is as good as he ought to be it could be done.

76~. You said yon would strike out parsing ill class III.; did yon intend to strike out grammar alto~ gether from class III.?-I thilJk I would; if yon tal<e out the parsing you have only to distinguish the subject and predicate in simple sentences.

763. When would you begin this breakiug up of sentences ?-In the 4th class. 764. To be more definite about history, would you be satisfied with the third period as it stands at

present ?-No, it commences with George I.; I would commence with George IIo's reign, from 1742. 765. Would you accept as a history for the ,,,hole school the third period now set ont in the Depart- "

ment's circu'm' ?-I would accept even less. . . 766. Would that be a saving of the teacher's time or the child's time ?-It would be a saving for

both, and it would be history that the child ought to know. 767. How long per week would you requiI'e a teacher to give history lessons ?-One half hour a

week I think would be 8ufficient, now they give two half hOllrs as u rnle; it is made a reading lesson; they read the Empire.

768. Taking tho circular called approved courses, what furniture is required in order to teach the Kindergarten in that ?-I dO,not thiu1!: the present desks [Lre suitable.

769. What cannot we do on the present desks that is mentioned there ?-Tho teacher ought to be able to go rOllnd the class lUtleh more freely than he can at present; the desks nre too close. The teacher ought to he able to go rOLlnd the back and see what is going Oil.

• 770. Does not she do that now with writing ?--The slate or copy-hook is handed fonl'ard, bllt yon cannot hand this work forward; yon cannot hand paper cutting forward.

Sa.muel Sunimobs. 14th July, 1899. 40

771. Do not teachers go round and look at the individual slates between the' desks ?-No ; the ehHdren show the s1ates. , ,

7·72. When they have' fil'e desks deep how do they manage ?-They have not five desks; as a rule they bave three and fom desks I want to work more Oil the table, if possible-tllM is Miss Monahan's view. You can do it with the present fnrniture, but not so well as. with proper furniture. Take stick laying, yon cannot. do that with a sloping desk, you want !L flat, desk, otherwise tho work will be rolling 'down. ' . •

773. By the Chairmcm.'-I uurlorstaml that at the time' of the 1888 Exhibition the French Govern­ment presented Victori'a with a set 01' tech'nical !lpparatlls whic)1 was distributed among the schools; have you seen that ?-No; we have some Kindergarten desks at school No. 1490, You must be able to get among Ihe children; a Kindergarten desk is supposed to hold ahOllt two children, so ,that the teacher can get about among 'he children. '

774.. By ll1r. Long.-Coultl the particular work in this programme ,be done ?-It is doue now, though not so well as it might be, we make the best of ' what we have got.

. 1.75. By lI'I?'. Venkins.-You refer to the gronping of the work in certain subjects in classes IV., V., arid, VI.; have YOll thought as to whether in t),e sUlull schools a teacher shon ld he compelled to have as many classes as exi~t in tile large sehools. In France, and other places, they have a diffimmt number of classes. to coser the same groUl](l-haYo-yoll,thonght. of that, ?-Yes, we adopt the plan of having only one clas3 ill ,snch snbjeets as history., Arithmetic is an import,ant subject, and we Wa\lt i, child in a conntry school to get as good instrllct,iOIl liS a child 'ill a tOlVn 8chool in those subjeets.

7iG. Coult! you hot do it by lmvirig a smaller number of clasiles in lhe country schools ?-It does not affect it. In a country seilOol the npper cla>ses are very small; I want a chi It! to get 11l! he can, anJ our pre,Emt system is workable. '

777. Could you not give him nlore by having 11 smaller Dumber of classes ?-You could give him more, bilt it would lIot be or so high It stundard.

7iS. Are }'on compelled to have that llumberof classes in consequence of payment by results ?-We value a'school with six chsses higher than a school with five. I rather encoUl'age their having six classes; if there is"a bright child it is It pity to keep him back to 5th class work. " 779. Could you not distribute the subjects to bettel' advantage in It smaller nnll1ber of classes in those little schooll! than you do at present by haying six classes ?-We have six classes in name, and we try to get them up to the examination in.six classes, but there are not really the six classes-you work the 2nd aud 3rd together, and the 4th and 5th together to a large extent-the 2ml and 3rd are taken together for reading. .

7s0. Does the programme interfere with the concentration of the work in one 01' two classes ?-Not if you modify it in the way that 'is done by eombining elasses in the small schools, '

The witnes8 withdrew.

Alexander .J. Hart, SlVOI'll and Qxamined.

, 781. By tM Chairman.-What are you'?-Heud teacher of the South Brunswick State sehool. I

I was formerly inspector of schools for the Charlton and PorHand districts. I exch:mged iuto Illy present 'position at my.own desire.

782. Have you considered the subject of Kindergarten methods in State schools ?-I have !tot given much attention to it.

783. Have you any views as to the propriety or advantage of that method ?-Our result examination is on just now, and I could not make a start until it is finished, so I ha ve Hot spent any time in working it

_ 'up, but taking tho question from a bro!1d point of view I should say it wonld be a decided !1dvantage if it could be managed under t,ne prescI!t result system. , /

. 784. Do you regard the result system as something essential, (0 which aU other educational wor!c should conform, or is it an evil ?-There are many good points in it, bUL I do not see that we should introduce any new subjects without making some modification of that system. If we do, we shall have to devote to those new subjects time \vbich we ought to devote to the oth8r subjects on accouut of onr salary depending upon them. I think it would interfere with the res'ult" lVe obtnined.

, 785. What are the advantages of the Kindergarten syst6m 7-I think it leads the children to think for themselves, and perhaps leads, in the upper classes, to things which would be useful to them in after-life. '

786. What are your views of it from an educalional point of view 1-1 think it is good. It allows us to cllltivate'the intelligence of the children a good deal more than some of the other snbjects do. , 787. Has it any influence in the'developrnent of the faclllties ?-I h,we not studied that.

788. Have you considered the subject of hand and eye training or manual training ?-No more than thinking of what we should commence 'with when we get,the examination over. As fa!' as the subjects themselves are concerned, I am in favour of thl3m, because [ think they will be useful both in cultivating the intelligence 'of the childreu and leading them to things that will be useful in after-life.

789. Have yon formed any general opinion as to the challges that will he necessitated in the present time-tahle ?-Not as regards the tim'e to be devoted to it. I have cOll8idered the matter from the point of vie-vv that we shall have to introduce them immediately, but I haye 110t corrie to auy definite conelusion as' to what time can be spared from the other subjects.

790. Has the Depart.ment given you any general advice on the subject ?-No, exeept the circular , that was issued to say those subjects would have to be introduced.

, 791. They leave it to yon to introduce' them ?-Yes. 792. You have a free hand to <levise the time for instructing them 7-We 'have a fl'ee hand in this,

that we have to draw up our time-table. The Department does not find fault with the. time we allot to each subject, provided it is 011 a satisfactory basis.

,793.' What does your staff consist of ?-26 altogether besides myself-six asslstants, sixteen pupil teachers; and fom monitors.

794. How many pupils have you got ?-An average of about 1,050. Last year th.e average was . about 1,150. We aTe not quite so large this .rear as we were last year.

41 A. 3, Hart, 14th July, 1899.

795. Can you take all the children thllt are offered ? -Not if I take children from neigbbouring schools. If there is no satisfactory reason fOl' thei!' leaving I refme them. We are just Il,bout nicely full. We could take a few more, bllt if I took rill that came we should he overcrowded, and there is no necessity for that, because they ought to leave the other schools.

796. Do tlIey go back They do uot leave. They ask me to take them in, and I sriy-" I cannot take vou in here." .'

• 797. Yon do not trouble whether they go back or not? -N 0 ; that 'has nothing to do with me. 798. You have not thought out what form of hand and eye training you are going to introduce into

your school ?-No. lVhen the circular 11r8t came ont I onJered all t,he books that were recommended in that circular from Mullen's, hut I have only nbollt two of them at present. Tiley were not in stock, so 1 left it until I could make a choice.

799. Is that at your expense ?-I do not know if they will ailow it 1,0 come out of the maintenance; if IJot, it will come ont of my pocket. . .

800. You want to know what the .hooks SHY allou t manual training before you make a start?­Yes. I want to choose the ~nbject8 that will benefit thc children mOEt, and those that we could manage best. 1 dare say we conld Hot manage some of the sllbjects witbout 8killed inst,ruction, but there may be some that we could.

" 801. WllO will have to carry out the instl'llction in the subjects so chosen ?-The staff as a whole. 802. Do you think the pupil te:whers und the assistants would be hetter qualified to carry it out

if they were instructed by a specialist amI organizer. bllt I do not see any dilTIculty in making a commencenlent. I ant.icipate that we shull get sufficient instruction from the text-books to enable us to make a start.

803. Yon cannot get the bool{s from l\-Illllen's yet ?-~ot all. I got a book on clay modelling the night before last" bu t I have not had time to look into it yet.

80c!. Have yon any boo~ on sliijtl ?r ,vood-work (-No. ' . 805. What do yOll think about drawiJlg ?-I thing that is a very usefnl subject. 806. From your country experience, do you consider that the instruction in h:lllil and eye training

and science should v,al), in different districts so as to be appropr'ate to the probabJe industry that the child will pur .. ue ?--Yes, I think it should. Tilere shonld be a :wide range, and the teacher should choose the subjects suitable to the district. If it were nn agricultural district he might take something useful to furmers' children; if it were a mining district he might take up Romething uscful to miners. • . ,

807. Have you thought of the sllbjeet of the continuation of night schools ?-No. 808. You have not wade t.he advisability of any serious alteration ill the school work a subject .of

special study ?-ND. 809. You are satisffed it would be of great advantage to intrOlluce Kindergarten methods, ITlanual

training, and the educatiDn of hand and eye iuto primary s('hools?-Yes. The only difficulty is how it can be introduced with the present result system.

SlO. Putting the result system asisle altogether, have you considered the question of altering the time-table and the distribution of\vork, to allo\v of the introduction of those new, subjects ?-I shall do so immediately; I have not done so yet, becausc ,our resnit examination is not yet finished. It will be finished next week, and then I shall alter the time·table to snit those new subjects.

8 n. By Dr, lWacFm·talld.-Do yOll think you will have any time at yonr disposal that can be spared to introduce lhose new subjects ?--1 think so, I think SOllle of the subjects couill be spared very well. .

812. Will you specify them ?-I would take ont history altogether for one. 1 do not thinK that history is a: supject that we can teach intelligel1tly in the time at our disposal. It is very well for reading, but it is a- suhject that must lead to cramming. therefore I think it. could very well be done aWHY with.

8Ul. Can you do that nnder the present regulations ?-No, the regulatiOlls must he modified. 814. As soon as your examinations nre over, you will have 10 consider what time JOu can spare for

those subjects but we shall have to, take the time from the other subjects. S15. Any time you give to those subjeets now will be time which might be devoting to work

ealcnlatei to increase the salaries of the teachers under the result sys!em ; it will be taken away from the time we should devote to the subjects the children nre examined upon.

8IG. So the Depaftmellt dDes not gh'e much encouragement directly to a leacher for its introduc­tion ?-No. TInt SOllle of the subjects have been lightened. Geography, for instance, has been very much cnt down in the !lPper classes, so we can spai'c some lime from that subject now.

817. By 1J11'. Long.--·Jn regard to science, do YDU follow thc programme as laid down in the regula­tions for your classes .?-Yes, this year we Jid, and last year, but in the previous years wc did not. I took up chemistry ill the 4th and 5th cla~ses, and electricity in the 6th.

818. After trying the two systems, spceializing science, and the Departmental programme, is the Departmental syllabus satisfactory ?-Thc Departmental regulMions does allow a teacher to depart from the syllabus.

S19. IR the particular work laid down in the body of this regillation a good course or not ?-I think a little re-arrangement would make it better. For instance, we teaeh the pllmp in the 4th, and all about the atmosphere in the 5th; I think those two onght to be reversed.

820. You are satisfied with the scope of the work, that is having physics and physiology, but not the arrangement of it 1-1 wonld not consider that satisfactory if it were that alone, bllt as it allows teachers to take up other sciences instead 1 t hi nk it covers quite sufficient gronnd.

821. By the CI.airman.--Yon flay you would otilit the leaching of l!istory?-Yes. I would omit it as far as II subject of examination is concerned, bnt I would include it in the reading matter. I think children. would get quite sufficient knowledge of history in that way. As the subject is now we are com­pelled to crum in R mnss of facts, alld that is what I object to.

822. Do you know whut place history has in England and the 'Qnited SLatefl ?-No. 823. Do you know that in mauy private schools in Americlt they find time to teach the history of

America, and ulso a knowlel1ge of the Constitution ?-TLat would be included in the school papers. Our children would get ~hat in their reading matter. They are now examined 011 the comprehension of. the

A. J, Hart, ,14th July. 1899 • 42

. reading matter, and if the history lessons were included in the reading matter the children would be examined in their comprehension of them. I think history might go without much loss.

',824. 1Vonld you alter tbe' time given to grammar? - Yes. I considrr we could spare a lot of the gnlJnmm·. I think the lime devoted to grammar in the 31'd class could "ery well be devoted to something ,else. We teu{~h them the purts of speech, but at that age children have not the intelligence to understand the fine distinctions between the different uses of worus.

ti25. Do ~011 think nnalysis is useful to childreu uudcr twelve ?-Only as mental training, but I ,tliinle mental training might be acquired in other ways. If we have sufficient: grammar to speak and write the Eng-lish language correctly I think that is all we r!,quire. '.

826. By Dr. il'lacFariand.-You do not think a ktlOwleuge of analysis is necessary ?-No; it takes a lot of time to drill it into them, and i~ lIOt worth much when it is drilled in,

827. By the Chairman.-:-Woultl you have any'alteration in geography ?-No, except that I woulu omit geography in the 2nd class, and, the relative position of countries in the 4th class. It has been cut down ill the nppcl' classes as much as it could be cut down.

828. By Ih. "~(acFarland.-Is 1Iot a good deal of time spent in the higher classes in complicated questions of arithmetic of-a somewhat unllatlll'al kind ?-No, I do not think so, except as to complicated fl;actions ; I do not/quite see the use of them.

829. fly .M)·. Jenkins.-Have you taken up the question' of infant teaching ?-'8ot special:ly. I have to supervise the whole of the work of the school, but I haye not maue infant teaching a special suhject of study.

830. Woulel you yourself prefer!o have 'the infant part of the sehoolnnder you or give it to some­body else ?~It is nndel' me under the present arrangements; the whole school is under me.

8:11. Wonlu you prefer a specially qllalified infant instructor I-If the qualified instructor were independent of me the infant school would be It separate one; I should have nothing whatever to do with it.

832. Would yon prefer that ?~No, because I like to know what gi'ounding the children have got before I transfer them to the upper school, so I should like to have them under my own eye in order to see timtat every step they made they had the ground·work of the lower step.

833 . .Not even the inspector's examination would be a guarantee to you ?~No; I do 110t go by inspectors' ex:amilmtions. I satisfy myself a child is fit for promotion before I promote. A chilu may pa!ls an inspector's exalllination by a fluke .

. 834. By the Chairman.--YOll do not think that is a guarantee of sufficient instruction ?-By no means. '.

833. B.y 11-fr. J!?nldns.-What e(~llcatiollal value do you consider drawing possesses ?-It,trains the .hand and eye and, to a cortain extent, the mind. I have a very high opinion of it.

836. Are YOll satisfied with what you have seen, as an inspector, of the way drawing is taught ?~ . I got very good work fiS a rule. There were.a few schools where it was, nnsatisfactory, but in the majority , of schools I was quite satisfied with the work that was being done in drawing.

837. What drawing is dOlle ill yonI' school ?-In the 1st class we have simple figures, The ohildren uo thpm in books ruled in squares. They are Kindergarten squares, but we do riot stick to the Kindergartell methou altogether. We take I hose book" and it perhaps helps the children a little, but I anl not ql~ite certain tlmt it is the beet plan. We do this in' the 1st and 2nd classes, but I am thinking now of taking plain books for the 2nd. In the 1st class they arc ph1in simple figures; in the 2nd class they arc a little more auvanced ; in the 3rd class we go into curves, and there the books are plain. They have no help at all, except that the books are 8et out in the same size, and the' children have 'to place the drawings in tbe part set out for them, so as to get them of uniforrn size. 1.n the 4th class we have more complicated figures, and also, in addition, drawing to scale. In t,he 5th class we have free-hand and practical geomelry. 'We have lL. couple of books of Poynter's that we take the grometry from. In the 6th class we have much more advanced free-hand and plans and elevations, in addition .to model drawing. We take simple model drawings in the 5th also.

838. Do yOll do nny black-board work or brush work ?-No brush work. The.figures are all drawn on the black-board by the teacher. "

839. Arc the pupils taught black-board work ?-No; it would he quite impracticabl~. 840. Are the IJupil teachers taught that ?-'-No. 84'1. Do you have It visiting !eacher ?-Not for the last two years. R42, 'Would you prefer to have one?-No; I was' very glad it was discontinueu. I have steadily

rcfused t<:> have anyone in the school since then; we know now what we are doing. 843. Do yon think it bett.er for the children?-Yes, far better. We get far better results

educationaliy. , ' ~ 844. How i~ the free-hand taught ?~It is drawn step by step on the board and explained, and then

the children follow in their books. 845, Have they any loose copies ?-W e had at first, hut we have discarded them; we thought t.hey

would be better without them. 846. The children 'have the black-board: where is it ?-In frollt of the class. 847. What is the shape of. the room ?-'l'here ani all sorts of rooms. 848. Arc the children able to see the right angles on the board as right angles we canhot

. help that. ' We get as Ileal' 1.0 it as we can. It does not matter very much for a flat subject. V{ e do not find Inlteh practical difficulty in that way; for model dniwing it is awkward.

849. How do the childron get to know the shape of the copy in free·hand ?-It i~ in front of them. Some of them· soc it at It tliflerent ItugJe, but we .... do lIOt find mnch difficulty in practice. vVe cannot possibJy have the board in front of every child, but appro~imatel y it is so.' \Ye pilt the board in the best posidon tbat we can get.' ,

8.50. How is the drawing examinecl? -The illspector looks through every ,bo'ok. 851. To what points are m~rks gi\'en ?'-Form, clean lines, and clean books are the principal points

in free-hanu ; form is the most important, and clean lines the pext.. . ,852. By .. ,.fr. Barrett.-Coming b,ack to the 'question or infant teaching, do yon find from your

,experience there is a lack of infant teachers in the Department ?-Yes.

43 A. J. IIart, Hth July, 1899.

·853. Is it a fact thaL in large sehools, or in some schools, the Department appoints assistant teach~rs with the large iufan t classes who are HOt. specially n tied for the work? -The Dep<lrtm~n t do not appomt the teachers to any class at all ; the head tea<.:her dist,ribntcs the staff. .. .

854. Is that a good system ?-No, I do not like thc system of appolDtlllg teachers, who are simply taken from a list withont any regard to their capabilities. '

855. With regnnl to the payment of jnnior as~istants; I find accor,lillg to this rep~rt of tl~e Reclassincation BOlll'd that thcy have made certain recommendat.ions witl! regard to the hIgh!y paid officer8; on the other hand; I find tbat., with' regard to junior assistants, say those wbo~e 8ahu-ies range from £40 down to £16 or £10, there is no mention made of an incr, ase. Do YOll thin], looking at the question 'generally, that the juuiors are underpaid ?-Those are Tlot assishllllS at all; they are pupil teacher:'. The pupil teaehers go np as far as £40 for females, nnd £50 for males; t,he assistants go up higher than that, and they get paid for results in addition. .

856. Do you think the juniors in a school get paid 8uffieient in consideratIOn of the work they are called upon to perform ?-No, I (!o not .

. !;57. Yon arc aware thaL certain sehools have been anudgamated ?-Yes 8.58. I know of two 8ehoo18, onc of which hns an average attendance of 1,000, and the other of

about 300 or 400; olle head teathcl' hns charge of tuose two schools. Do yon Ihink that sHch a'maJl is overworked. Can he give sullicient time not only to those under him, but also to the children when he is called upon to takc charge of two schools that Itre amalgamated ?-No, I do not think so. We do the be~t we clln, and llistrilmte Ollr time betwcen the schools flS well as we can, but wo cannot be ill two plaees at OIlCf'. In mally cases the two schools are a good distance apart, and a govel deal of time is wasted in t.ravelling from one to the olher, and the adjunct will rf'ceive a mlleh smaller share of time (hall the maill school/and will eonsequcnt.ly snfi'er.,

8.5~). AmI the heal] tendICr has not the children so much under his influence ?-No.

J'l'.e witness witlulrew.

Thomas Brodribh, sworn and examiiled.

860. By the Chairman.-What are you 1-I was Seeretary for Education; previonsly to that I ","as Illspeetor-Generalof Schools.

'861. I believe at one time you iuitiated Kindergarten work in the St.ate schools ?-Yes. 862. YOll made the Kindcrgarten work a subject of'special interest?-Yes, I took a great deal of

interest ill it, anti soo\\' it fairly lannched. Ie began before 1889. Dr. Pearson engaged a Indy who had come ont from home with very strong crederltial:;;, a Mrs. Goulden; he engaged her to give lessons in the old :Model Schools so that teachers might at tent! ; a large !lllmber of teachers Ilttended, and we hoped, by gradunUy teaching them the system, to spread it throughout the schools; my aim was to try and spread it without any speeial expense.

863. Yon regnnlell it as essontial to have the teaching well introduced ami weJ! organilled?-Yes, for two or three reasons. One was thnt the Kindergarten system is thought very highly of by most educationists, and it stands at the very hend of thu secolldary HIllI technical course of ill3truction in the French programme. The special value of it is t.hat it tends to intercst children in their lessons; it makes their fingers dexterous, it stimulates their love of activit.y, and it also exercises I heir cOllstrnetive powers. ,

.864. Do you regard it as c~8el1tial, as forming the llll.sc of manual training, and ultirnately technical edueation?-Ycs, it c!llis forth thot:le qualities specially which tend to make technical instruction snccessful.

86.'5. You did not at that time, apart from Kindergarten, attempt to 'introduce any form of manual instruction ?-I did shortly afterwards.

866. Will YOll explain what progress YOll made with Kindergarten, and if it was discontinued in your time. When lIid you leal'c the Department ?-~~t the enu of Janua-y, U!94.

807. Why was that (-I suppose because the Minister and I did not qllite pull together. J think I failed' to please the :Minister, allll I must say he very greutly failed to please me. I thought he was acting

'either illegally or improperly, alit! altogether injuring the system; he did not choose to take my advice on certain points. Tlw:Minister evidently wished to get rid of me, so the excuse was made that the offices of Secretmy and Inspector-Gcneral could be amaJgtlmatcd. I believe they cOllld Hot legally, because there is statutory provision for each offIce; but I was very much worried at seeing a system built llP with great painstaking and effort being tumbl, d down likc a paek of canis, and I was induced to takc advantage of the 1l1w that wns passe~, by which a per~on bnving attained tl1e- age of 50, and having served 25 years, could j'etire, amI I did retire.

868. Your reason for retiring was that. YOlL tbought the system of education was being injured ?­I was q nite clear thafit was.

869. I understand part of Ihe system of' cducation was the systeni of Kindergarten ?-Yes; the technical schools were altacked very gra\·ely.

870. Was the Training College attaeked ? --The Training College was abolished, w hici] I thought was 11 very ill-judge,l step. There was allother roason in connexion with that, namely, that the students in tmining were all n;;ked, not by me or witll my sanction, but with the Ministt'r's sanetion-" Will you give up your cJnirn~ to the :-;econd year's training?" They were tminet! in two sllceessive yenTs, and I con­sidered all injllstice was .bne to lhem by their being asked to gire up their rights; they had a claim upon the Department, and they were asked, withollt any corresponding- adYlllItage, to give np that claim. '

871. Did the Government abo stop the extension or the Kindergarten ?-They did not abolish it, hut they stopped the special meallS I h~Ld :tdupted to spread it.

872, What did you do in introducing Iho Kindergarten s."stem ?-Professor Pearson introduced this lady, .Mrs. Goulden, 'and we formed classcs of teachers, assistant teachers, aud pupil kachers, and those teachers look a gl'eM deal of interest ill it. Some of them went so fur as to payout of tbeir own pockets for private instruction; then ocher tenchers snid-" This is a grent gnill ; will ,rOil pIty llS something extra if we te,wh Kindergarten in the schools." I oi)po~etl that ueealloe I t1id ~lOt tllillk That giving them a sharper tool to work wi th deserved extra payment, and I thought it could be introdnced witlJOut auy extra expense

,except the payment.of the teacher who originated it ; that was in 18!;S or U:lH9. Then wc fonnd that

,'.rhomllS Brodribb, 14th July. 1899. 44

many of onr teachers or traiuees amI relieving teachers who were kept for urgencies, were qualified to teach -it. I picked out Reme of the most promising, and we e~tablisheu regular clnsses. This caused no increased cost, because they were paiu fixed 8ararie~. -I hml a teacher \\'ith a class Oll Saturday morning, ami there would be perhaps about 100 assistant teachers from teil to elevcn,'and anoLhcl' 100 from eleven till twelve, so we had classes of 200 young people learilillg the syslem. 'We did not force them to come up, bnt we offered them facilities, and they came up. In the course of time tho:,e teachers were scattered abont the country ,and introduced this method far anu wide. , 873. How long dill this go on ?-It certainly went on nutil the end of 1892, and I think (luring 'part of 1893-most of the time that I wai:l secretary.

8:'4. The teachers were at that time encouraged to apply those methods which they learnt ?-Yes, morally encouraged, not peculliariiy. ,

875. Did the Department go to any further expense in thc wlty of providing suitable desks or other material ?-In two schools, 01' perhnps three, we providell somQ Killd!3rgarten desks. They are desks suited for little ehildl'oll, but they are not only suitable .for Kiudergarten teaching, they arc suitable for any young children. '. .

876. Tbey were adapted for youug. (!hildrcn's work, whether it was Kindergarten or not ?-Yes; such children could sit easily with their feet on the ground. ,

877. You reall'y conteniplated gradually, without wdden expeme, le.ttillg the Kindergarten permeate the whole of the State school system ?-Yes, -, did: . - - . '., .

878" As an educational expert., YOll were quite sati~fieli tllat was the propel' basis for inFant instruc­tion ?-Yes. The Kindel'gartell systt-m to bc fully adopted would require almost special agencies of its _ owu ; bllt I did not contemplate simply v, Kindergarten -school, but Kindergarten m~thods ~o assist the

_ general teaehing of infant schools. _ ' 879. Did tl,e Department I'call,v have in their ~inds the idea of thoroughly permeating all the schools

with Kindergarten method.; hall you any idea as to the expense that would nltil1lately f,111 on the Depart­ment 1-Yes. At first we judged it advisable to give them some Kindergarten r,pparatus, I'ay, paper for

. plaiting, sticks for la'ying (the sticks were simply matches with the sulphur rubbed off), and little tablets . for making figures for tablet laying, as it is called, and little eubes for constructive purposes. I can

hal'llly say holY much we spent, but the amount waS small. If I took the total amount t,hat was spent on apparatus o[ every kind, I do not think it was very much more than £3,000; and that included maps, books, slates, aIld every provision for 2,000 schools.

88[>" If YOllr scheme had beon persiste,l in, and developed to its perfection, you would gradually have equipped the whole of the- schools at no very la,rge expense ?-I think so; but I contemplated eventually not giving them the ma,terial. I thought. it COllltl come out of the maint.enanee money that is allowed to each school: it wonhl onl v be n' small amount for ench sehool.

881. Wns the system developed ~umciently to emtble yon to judge of its e.lllcaLiollal value practi­cally ?-Yes, I think so. I had cellsed to be all inspeetor £01' some years, ami I did not go into the schools examining the' children, so r had to t.rust t.o the evidence of others, and the general result. was very satis­iaetory. They said the chihIren wore brighter, showerl more interest in theilj work, and lcarnt to read, ami especially to count, more quickly. In counting, the Kindergarten system is a very great improvement. Supposing you ,ask a ·very young l'hild how much five and three are; it is n question of immense difficulty; the five antI three mean nothing to a child. You have to teach him by ptltting down five halls and three -Lalls, ami then make him count them. Yon want concrete examples.

882, You are satisficd as to the success of the method adopted? - Yes. 883. Yon censer} ·to be an inspector and becltme Inspector-General, and yotl did, not see the schools

yourself ?,-I saw a good many of them as Inspector-Golleml,l1nd I read the reports of the inspectors. 884. Did you road them yourself or do it vicariously? -I preferred to do that myself. . 88;). You visited sohools as Inspector-Geneml ? -Ocoasionally. I eould not visit very many,

becallse I Iud tl. good many office dllties to perform. 886. Di,.! yon do that as part of the system. of checking the report.s ?-No. 887. Did you do it to familiarize yourself with the aetnal work being dOlle ?-I always did it wHh

a new inspector; I nl ways llsed to accompany him on a romid of inspection to see that he was thoroughly an fait witll his work. .

888. Did you think that short of doing work of that SOl'!:, you could be -said to do the work of Inspeetol:-General properly? -I should have preferred very much being more in the school;;, but the exigencies of the office aid 110t allow it. The secretary wnnted my help in the office, and there were examinations, and other things which mude it necessary for me to he a great deal in the office. I did, of comse, make occa.uioual visits to comp!Lre work in the differeut schools.' ,

. 889. Did yon do it with a view of satisfying yourself as to real ellllcationnl work apart from arith­metical results ?-Yes. ,The mere pereen rage of merit was lIOt rLlways my gauge of a school; the toue. and quality' of the school, amI the smartness of the ehilJren shoul,l count for n, great defL!.

890. If those elements are ignored by inspectors generally, yOIl lllay haye an educational system becoming mechanical and soulless ?-There isn danger if those things are lost sight of, but I think they are not lost sight of. In the lastcbange we made in the system we tried to give special marks for discipline, and that sort of thiug. '

891. If the arithmetical results are. an imperfect test of the ordinary work that wonlLl apply with double force tr} the Kindergarten work ?-That could o[]ly be testerl by going to the class and testing it with the Ol'dinttry examination work, and seeing how the children did their work, and their Killliergarten games, and by their smartness in answering. '

892. It would not be tesLed by an ordiunry'written examination?-The Kindergarten ehildren would not write -mucll; they are from three to seven years of ·age.

893. Did you take any steps to train the inspectors, or familiarize them with the actual principles of Kindergarten ?-I did not inJiddnally ; but I think the iuspectors all knew something about it,-they are ilcattereu 'all over the colony-some cf them, I suppose, do not know much about it, but I think they aIr tried to learn something about it ; tbey felt that their duty required it, and I suppose they did so.

894. If you were bringing it into operation now- on a ulliYers:<l scale, would it be better to see that· they' were familiar with the prineiples of the system and thelllorle of teaching ?-I think they would

45 ~J

ThOmM Brodrlbb Utli July~ !899:

ile now. Their coml~lon ~enso would tell thepl tlj!:y had to OXflmino on it. There is not an inS¥lector, I think, who does not know enough of it to be able to judge prot/,y fairly,

8.95, In refererlce' to hand and eye ti'aining, (ljd yon take any ptep;:; to illtrotiuce that on tl1e l{inuer­gal'ten basis ?-Not on the Kindel'gnrteu b[lili~, . + \HOle a recomlllellliation ahollt it, ml,\ the Irtter must be ih ~he office somewbere-I prpponnded a certain schpmE(, hnt I (',mnot tell the rear, I might say that while alltbe authorities say' that you ·cannot teach a tl'a({e in a sehool! mId yon call1lot even teach g<'lIC'rally the use of tools, yo,u may still clo a great deal il~ m!ll1wd instructioll; and ill sQme places, I think in England, in Frl'nce, amf to s01l1e pxtcnt, in AmeriCA, qnd SOllth A qstmJia, but above nIl in Sweden, whicl~ first started it, thet·() Wtl,~ what they called the sIcij(I sYS!CIll. They wapted some occupation tlmt woulll ellucate children's .lingers, make them dextewl!!! and handy, ant! af' the same time give them It

tltste for manual crafts; and so, after trying many things, they hit upon working in wood-it was clean; it was rpanag'eable, and with Iittlc morc than a knife certain things could be done, At. onr Inst Exhibition of 18&8 there was a grefj,t deaf of intere.'!tjllg wor¥: of t.his sWjrl syspcm fTOl~l France, a good deal from the London School Board, the Ihistol School Bo~!,d, [lnd o)'ller p'Jaces, I thought if we could introduce th~t at fj, triAiug cost it would be ,¥orth tile effort, The objection WllS often nrge4 against OUt' sys~elll that 'ye \Yflrc 40ing !lO~hillg bll~ etlucldillg the hpad, fOl'gettipg that there were hands ani! eyes alil well as brain;.), It w:i.s thought w'e were turning out possible cler~s too much, and not giving lads a taste for artiEa,l work. I thiu~ t.lp<t is a g~·eat evil, and !1 thing to be clleeked and combated-I thought we might follow in the wake of those places, and start manual technical schools. I thought !Ve should. have to begin ill M~lbollnJe! ~ycn if we did Bot go beyond Melbourne. ¥y il/!la was tqllt we shonld !l!]-re all in~tructor cngaged hj' tbe State, It really good mall, who was not lllerply a cfFP~nter, !Jut 1V!1O either had ,tn id~a of teaching or eon!;!' lie shown bow to tcach, that is; n:Jt merely l!'lctpre to t-h!J ~!oys--"h~ should n~~, l~~erely ~vork for f,hem :Lpd This is how it should. be uQlle/' bllt he should say-" This is the way to do it, now you 1ry to do " I thought, by getting 1).!1 instructor you eoulq havj3 l' SOft of rough workshpp in Oll~ of the central schools ill each large locality; my notion was to have one in Carltoll; 1'\ onll }'yIe!PfJl~r!le~ C~)pil]g)~o~cI, Fitzroy, Snpth Melbonrne, Prahran, Hich­moml, 'Yind,sor, ~!!(l perljl1.ps Ppr~ ::VJelbourne: I tllOugh~ the bes~ boys elluoationally in each s04001 who ~!td at~fI;iI1!"u ~ certaiti qnal:ificfftion, ~!qo wer~ fit, or ~enl'ly flt to .leave tIle school, shoul~ be 1J-lIowe11 as a pr~yilege tQ go to tqis class one afternoon or one lIloqljng in thp \yeek, One man by taking ~orl1i!1g and IJ.fteI'J100n iq~'~r!l~tioll c~nld. pt'ach the w~!Qle gf th080 p1itpes, r ha ye mentioned nine places. and· he ~vould pav!' ~ell IHllf·day~; it, cpnl(~ ]lot pe d.onc \!iPIQI]t some expell~e: bec~use yon would have to put np It sheq if YOll l!ltq not!!: sQitable rORm, b~t in nl11ny ~chools fhere would bp a sllit{thle r00!ll. I thought ~h!tt many other boys would want to go too, who were not picked by heaiI teaeher-all the Carlton boys wOllld gP on the Carlton day to the Carltoll eentre, and. 80 on, I n:t Inrge school Qf 70001' 800 there might [Jot be more than e'ight (jl' tell ·~6ys p~i~~eJ ,~h() W;fe ~(I~:~llced jil theh' sc~·ool ,vprk, eOllspieuolls fpr their gOqd. chnr~~iel', alld selected for this privilege, I thought olhcrs might, wish to go, ItUd. iL wmild be well to let them go and chp.rge therll a sl!lali fep-I q(j !10~ knm; tHrt thp fCf' IHlg!!t not be e1lOl!gh to pay for the instructor altogpther.

896, vVould there be any rea"Oll, except on the groulIlI of expeuse, why JOll shoull) not Imv!) it ill 0

evpry large schp()1 ?-:~ 0 other r'Cpept tile g!'Ju!!ll of e:xpepsq ; apd as yOll wOlllft Dot have H eVE(ry (lay it rp8a~.s thr-t thp SitPlp ill~~r~c~()!' cop!d flo seyci'ql ~chools. + tl!Oughr, sil!lple 'r0od'\yor!{, sncll as was exh ibj tell til the E.~hil)iFiol1! !ypuW bp p. ~qjtl}ble tqi!~g. '

897. What tools do you use ?-In the Swedish system they l)sp li~tle )nOre than a kpife, but ill the Lond()n t:iPhRR! BO!trd t.hcy ~lS~ fI: litt.lc 111OI'C1 p~rhaps a gimlet or 11 chisel, ~pt 11O~lling much:

·8Q8. Tj1a~ ~eeps ~!'ell :t:':'l~y froln ~lle C:U'p'Bllt(3riljg cl'aft.?- ips! i~ is 1I0t e~l'pentrYI put it 1l11~kes ~pys hfmdy. . ,.

899, YOIl selected wood·'york ont of !-el':?r!}! 1:1tll1nal oCPI~pations ?~-'Yes, severnl woro pr()po~ed !)efqI'Q tl!!3Y l,iF lJIlon ~!1i~ jll S!\Cerlen; SllC!~ as Illl!lp!t-1JOx HULking aud metal :v:or!~, bllt th:lt is dirty, and it is l!Qt f}~lit~bl~ fQr ]qtll]g e!Iihlnm, .

. 90Q, 'f'!"j c()~~ Qf thfl wop4 'yol~ld. llot~e !rpleh ? -:ijo, t,hey would buy it thcmsel \'es, I think, I thiq~ ~yp:y epjl~l should learn ~ little e~e,nent~ry ~l!rp(l!,try. ~ Hlys~1f ellgi1ge~1 ~ ~arpen~pr at one -time; I had a cRPvel,i~r.tlshf3!l I\,nt1 bench l!l I!lY ~1Vl' gro!1udsl ~I!d I:WO of my sol}s aqil of their school­m~r!3S1 it!' R~illg J!qp,ils of l'h!J s~!Jlc ~c~rol! ppm·~1, lIrd. th~ Clp']le!li'Cl' tal!ght thpm. Every oqe of boys was bettered by that instruct.lOll-el'ery one made something, It wheelbarrow, a dog's kellnel, or !t piecq ?f siITIP/!" !l1p litnre.

'901. Cali you sa}' wilethel' tiley do not preserve earpe!lte~iI:g for tIl!" ~ec!lp~~i11 schools in Sweden and exchHl~ it from th~ pri!n~ry ~~~lOO!S ?--¥ es, rhey do. '

902. \V nulll you do the samc 1wre ?-Yes, I do not thin Ie YOll can teach a trade. !.!O~i ¥ Q~ re~I)'Ilr[lel~~! }YOO(!-,York q~lite l~Pit!'r- frO!!l carpont~rillg ?-Yes! it is llot the sfI'nlG I;tting, 9Q4, ,Vpl!hl Y~ll rpporppl~!}d ele!llel!tary c!~rpe!lte:il~g in Stn1e scpools ?-l thiI]k it wpilill be tpp

p:u?l! if ycm 'ififl. the b,uqpIt up'pn rhe pep'frt'IT!ent to prodlle it., but I ha~T seen some schqqls (I tNnk I saw o~e in :r,j~Il)!l'1i!l:), 11' [lere vo!n!ltari!y th~ tcac!~~1':8 !tllfllj!lpi(~ got tOl?etiIel' a eort of car}Jent;'I:~' c~ass, and in the Chllrch Rf ~llglan~ Gr~r!V!1~r School here they I/a;re a c:arpenter's c~ass-I can i?l3e no obJectIOn 10 that,

905. IIi relation to the St,1.te sclioo! system you do not go to that extent ?-No, I uo not think thp ~t~te shq}!!4 be cl}l\e(1 npml to do t!ll'C .

90R: ¥pn di4 !lPt il!trqd.Hee t~is ~yste[!1 ?-:Sq, it nqt SfL!lCtiolled at till:) time. We hau an able t'fin!st,er 1'l:t th~ !iJP!J1 !1)~ilfl or Ilcrf~~:f !!~nour alHl worth/ Frederick Sargood-he 1Yas not the Minister witll 'YJlqm I hml ~he djsagr!'l~~e'I1(;: J fi"ncy that il1 time Sil' frederick )Voni,l have ~ec~ded to it 1 h}lt !le ~~~t!'l~ tp gQ prr gra!1l1!!-lly ; and ther~ wa~ anotJ:rer proposal before hilll !it the same tirp.e to establish an ~n(fH~~rinl :.!'Ft ~rf!i~ilJ.g ~chool. frof!""l?or r~al'son il).tr()duce~l ~ little cooking into the State schools; he engaged two ladies as experts in cooking io give cent~'ul grollp lessons; and we g9t the senior girls of the distric! tq cqme, and r;ot only)C)~~ ?11, ~n~ do t1~e tl~illgslll1der !tn illstl'l]ctress, so I thougflt Wfl might h!l-ve sOIllEthing of that kind f(lr Hle ad vanced. girls nnder similar conditions to what I have stated about th~

'poys. + Hlqugl1t tIle), m!~I!t !~~rn :: ll!f'l? plain ~ook!ng! al~(f alF;o a little sic~-room cookery 1 anq lpy idea wa~ thf1t ~ HHt? ~!~rrl~nF~TY ~lressl1la~ing apd e!erp.~ntary p.ursing, a~)(l tre treafment of cUfs, bruise~, and S:p.r~jDS Hljgkt b~ t:;tught· ( th~t dOf3,s l~~t ~P!tl1 trajpin&' thep1 to be nn!~e~1 or cooks, or dressrp~kersl but gr~wg tP!3Jll !l. littl~ mOl'!" ~rr())Vle~g~ ~h!1!l ~!Wy oHlepvi~~ \ypl!td h~v'~; Il~d a systeml'pic ~l1ow'ledge of ~~r~~R ~r~B fb~~ ~m tj1P;~~s~ SY8!T :Y8ITifLP'~ H~~f~!lp~~~, ,. . .., .

. I

Thomas Brodribb, 14th July, 1890. 46

907. Wha~ steps were taken to carry ont this ?-No steps, except that Professor Pearsoll engaged ·those ladies 'to give cooking lessons, and they dill give them for a long time. _

, 908. _ 'Ve )lave mixell girls' and. boys' Hehools now; was ,that so ill your day?-Yes, it was nearly always so. The central schools in Melbourne were divided into boys, girls, ami infant!?, and before that St. James' and St. Paul's were girls' and boys' schools respectivcly ; I think those were the only excep. tions. In some of the Roman-Catholic schools I found tile, sexcs divided.

909. Did ,not that apply to the common schools too ?-1 do not remember any others. ~rhe objec­tion is that it requires a larger staff to teach them separately; YOll can snbdivide anll grade the cbildren better by at,tainments t.han if you di vide t,hem according to sexes.

. ~llO. As an educationist, is it a good thing to teach boys ant! girls together?-We do it always from the mfant school to tile Univel·sily.

911. Do you do it in the seconda!':, schools,?-1n some secondary schools; it is done in theUniver-sity High School, that is, the old Training College; it was taken of by MI'. Palmer, and hc taught boys and. girls together, and there are some othcr schools. .

912. Do you sec no objection to thnt?-N'{; I think the advantage::; arc so grcat- th11t they over­balance the disadvantages. You will find some interesting remarks on that sllbject in the Royal Commis­sion Oll Erlncation presided-over by Mr. Higinbotham.

913. As far as Kindergart,en work is concerned, YOll do not think it would cost very much ?-No, as a matter of fact I do not. _

914. What abont hill1d and eye instruction ?-~I suppose you meail mannal schools; it wOllhl cost occasionally fitting up a room, or perhaps erecting a shed, bnt I fancy we conld always have found a romil in some school ,in the district; itwould have meant a carpenter's bench and It set of tools 'and the pay of one instructor. I snppose that for fi ve days' instruction a week. a man would think himself well paid at the rate of £200 a year. '

915. One 01' two instructors and. organizers, if properly qualified, could gradual,ly qualify the whole teaching staff of the colony ?-That is how I tried to w(ll'k the Kindergarten.

916. You are satisfied that that process, if you had men to start it" would generally introduce the mauual training, sllch as wood modelling, ILlld such things I thought that was incontestable, and that it would do it at a small expense, . Nearly half the children of colony arc at school in Melbollrne and suburbs, so yon get at them at once. 1 did not contemplate introducing it in the rural districts; because I did not see how it could be carrieu out unless, as iu the Killdergarten, when a lot of teachers are trained they could carry their lminillg into remote places; so boy~, when they have had those lessons, though they might not be skilled carpenters, might do it in small pla~es.

917. Conntry t'owns the size 9£ Hamilton would be quite large enough to introduce it ?-In a .place like Hamilton it would be very easy indeed; it woultl mean one instructor attending one afternoon a week. -

v 918. Eventually would yon not find that the 'teaching staff's themselves could grasp it ?-Yes, I think they could. '

919. Then it wonld be pa'rt of the teacher's ordinary work to teach it ?-Yes, though I.do not know that it would not be better in a large place like Melbourne to let a professional carpenter do ii. '~When you speak of extending it in the country, bear in mind that a large number of the head teachers of little schools are women, and we can hal:dly expect them to do it.

920. By~,iv1r. Jenkins.-Do you think a carpenter woul(\ be a sufficiently good educationist, or wouM he tend to manufactnre rather than to teach ?-I said that though a man might be a good craftsman he might not be anything of a teacher, and it would be necessary to supervise his teaching and give him wrinkles how to teach-any te!l:clter could show him that.

921. By Dr. MacFarland . ..:...-Has not the system been so long in force now that it would be possible to get a man who was a skilled teacher, antralso skilled with his hands·?~lt is possible, but I do not know. If you import R man it would be expensive, and I was trying to work the thing as cheaply as possible.

922. By llIr. Jenhins.-You pay this man more as a carpenter than as a school teacher ?-He would be doing the work of a teacher while showing some of the details of elementary carpentering.

923. Wliat kind of exercise have you in yonI' mind ?-Making little things, perhaps a bracket or a little wheel. -

924. What was the real object <?f th-e work,?-To make the' hands dexterous, to encourage the faculty of observation and to make 'children inventive.

925. Yon really intend to have au educationist at work; you w!shed to educate the children?­To educate their fingers.

926. Were yon contemplating 1ll01'e than their being handy; were you trying to 1ill),ke them better thinkers or better observers 7-1 think better observel'll ; you canllot handle things without, observiug .them.

927. By the Chairman.-Practically I,he cost Of doing this would be little more than the cost of introdllcingthe organizers and instructor's?,-Very little more. I do not knolV that it would be so much as ihat, because if part of my were to allow other pupils to come on payment it ,would reduec-the expense. -, 928. Had yon made np your mind. what alteration should be 'made in the ordinary State school

curriculnm ; j,his manual training was to take so many hours; that was not to be added on to the ordinary work 't-No; I thonght perhaps only the children should be admitted who were capable of leaving the school, who llltd attained the standard; 110 chihlreu of dcfectivc education should be allowed to go to it.

929. That is not in accord with the continental methods; there they make it part of theprimnry education ?-In the German primary schools it does not find a place, bnt in the German continuation schools it does; in France it is in the primary schooL

930. Is not the German primary school course more extensive than ours ?-1 think it is, and they have longer hours. , _

931. Do you sec auy objection to introducing it into the primary course and modifying the present table 'of subjects to allow of its introduction? -I do not thin k it would be desirable to introduce it for very young children. You wonld hardly expect to teach hoys this work betwee-n eight anel eleven years of age.

932. Would it not be possible to introduce it for elder children by some modification of the present programme'?-That means something very milch bigger than I contemplated, and much more expensive.

47 Thomas' Brodrlbb, 14th July,1899.

933. You contemplated it as a sort of reward of merit after completion of the course ?-N ot after completion, but when appl'oaching completion. '

934. In England, the Continent, and Am'erib, it is intro!luced as part of the primary system in the higher classes ?-Yes, in the higher cla,sses, and tHe Kindergarten ill the lowest.

!J35. Assuming that were so, ftnd all your evi'denee as to making central schools in Melbourne applied, and assuming also the cost of special organizers, {vould that involve ~o mueh extra expense if it were introduced into the primary schools ?-I am afraid lit would, if it meaus additional teachers. It means a large number of aaditional t,caehers if YOll make it in general thing for every school.

.936. You proposed to introduce it by grouping schools in the various lccalitics. If it were for all the children of those higher classes, the classes wbuld be larger, and more teachers would be required; that would be an extra expense ?-Yes, and you ~ollld get young children who would not have the same sense of responsibility. It would have a great attbction for boys, and I fancy they wouM learn ,much faster during' their last year at school.' :

937. 1f a boy is to be trained with the haud and eye, he must begin at ten or eleven ?-In the Kindcrgarten they begin very' much earlier. I .

938. To introduce it properly as part of the method of developing faculties generl}lly, it would not be altogethet· satisfactory to confine it entirely to the bright ones; it is only the considcration of expense? -Yes, I agree that it would be better if you couldl extend it further than I said.

939. By Mr. Jenkins.-:-Did this plan of yours include illstruction in drawing ?-No, the, drawing is given independently of that. The drtlwing is pari of the school course.

940. This work was ill no way connected \~ith drawing ?-Except that all carpentering is connected with drawing, or should be. .

941. By 1111'. Long.-Suppose your scheme ~ad been carried out, and you had selected for Carlton a man who could. do this wood-work, \vould you have felt competent to put him on the right track in regard to his teaching ?:-1 mean Oll principles of teaching, not on principles of carpentry. I could not tell whether he is doing the thing secundum artem accbrding to the carpenter's art, but I could tell whether he was showing the children ill such a wa,y tbat they Icould grasp bis meaning.

942. You would have been satisfied that vou conld have directed this work efficiently that you proposed ?--1 thought it was probable tIJat I or m~ officers could have done so.

943. You did not feel it necessary to Bend flOme for a man ?..:...No. 944. By the Chai?·rnan.- You did not feel it 'necessary to send borne, and then proceed to carry the

idea out without sending home~wo111d you think bf writing and printing a memorandum saying it was essential to get outside orgallizer;; amI iust.ructots in order to prevent the system breaking down badly; and after writing that would YOll st~U't jt in a hurry without sending home or getting any instructions at all? -I think I should place myself in a funny po'sition jf I did.

945. By Mr. Long.-You equipped two or :three schools with flat Kindergarten desks-did you get efficient Kindergarten work in schools not equipped in that way?-Yes, very efficient on the ordinary desks. The Kindergarten desks arc a little more ponvenientt and they are marked with squares that are very convenient for putting tbe cubes on.

946. You think with the ordinary school desks y~m could get satisfactory Kindergarten work ?-Yes, we did.' I .

947. By 1111'. Jenkins.-;-Your manual iilstrt)ction was not part of the general scheme of instruction; it was made a reward for past efforts ?-I'meant it to become in time part of the general scheme-I fearea lest I should be attempting too much at first; lldid not think it. was practicable at the time to make it part of the general scheme; I thought the next best thing was to propose what would not, cause a great outlay, and what. 'vas likely to be adopted. I

948. That was more a matter of interest to a child than a means of instruction ?-Both; you interest the child when you give him a material 01Jjeet to work on.

949. Your manual instruction to the schoo~s w.as not It general s~heme of instruction ~ it wus an cffort to reward past endeavours on tbe part of th~ clnldren ?-I do not lIke to say thftt. I tlllnk I ghould have regarded it as a. general possible scheme for the instruction of every child in the school in turn, when they got up into .the upper classes and were: fit for it. I thought if i.t was made a matter of reward there would be a little emulation to get into that .:;lass, and even with that limitation it would become very general; it would be popular with the boys. I

950. You took boys of twelvcor thirteen?'--Yes, ab()Ut that age, hut sometimes in the 5th class you would find a elevel' young child of eleven or l~ss. If he were a good child, 'allli forward ip. his studies, I think he should have the privilego} he is not too young.

951. You commence teaching drawing at ~ very early age ?-Yes, almost from the first. 952. This, instruction w'as a course of it~ own?-Yes, copied from other systems, and with the.

knowledge that it had been very highly approved lof by the education experts of other countries. 953. By Mr. Long.-What is your opillio~ about the elementary science under the head of general

lessons in classes IV., V., and VI.; did you wishito put any more science into' the schools at any time?­I think we conceived that there was a natural limit to those things, and I believe we thought we had nearly reached the limit. I

954. You were satisfied that the science course you were concerned in drawing up about 1885 was all that was required?-Yes, I think we put in as much as we thought at the time was justifiable.

955. Do YOll think in dairying districts tlie teachers should put this asido and teach the sciences connected with dairying and butter making and sd on ?-I do not think they should put it aside, but if we had mantlal schools, something like the industr~ or the district sbould be taught; in a fruit-growing district something like horticulture or pruning might be taught, I do llot Bay you can teach a trade in a school, but you may lead up to!t. You may take the first initiatory steps. I am not sure you could teach anything better than that elementary carpentering; ifmakes a handy man.

956. Would you vary the science laid down here in agrape~growing districtfor sometbing connected with grape-growing ?-I do not think I would. The genoral evidence of those educational experts is that you should broaden the basis, and not specialize until a ehild is pretty weil leaving school.

957. You never contemplated doing .anything special except by means of continuation schools after the primary schools stage ?-No.

~p8, J3v !J!r· !.~1'ki~s·;-;-;-Piu xpu fly~!:"C;)!lt!,mpllfl~ F~~chi~g 111g~br!1; tp tile ~~lH1er cl*!3sl'ls C!f ROYs ?­Algebra can be taught 1n any school for extra payment.

. l:J59; :Pl!~ i1~ pi!'rt pf r.4e ~oprs~ ill p.ht~.l'l pf !\l'jthrnerip! perll!\p~ r-£fr; bR~ I tfl!ljl( it if' ,dOPe itl s~me of the Sydney sehonls. In 1887 + \yas s,en~ ov~~' ~)y t!l!3 (}P\'Cl'lfrneHt tq I'C[lO!t 011 tller!~w ~rl!tp "Y I1lp~ 8e~1?pJs1 ami I remplp.ber il] 801)1P of thp. pl'imn,fY scllqols. if! NP1V E!RQi,h \oy illes, wl)at theY c,al!q(ltllo superior P,fJf!1fIry scbpo~;B, sorn!:) enihll'e!! were Jeftl'nirg' algebra !1l1d ~elwli(l ,yithout oxtqt PllymCJ!t, 4JIt i~:ytls I!O~ !J: geq.~rl!:J ~hjp~. . .

960. Do you sec flry, grcat ,q}/ficu1ty in ~f'i~~llilJg ~ litHe Of it ?~I ~ep tb}s.,.4jfflpHlty, PH]' eIIildp:H'f l}fe much Y01!Pgpl' tl!~p chiJ4ren in grl!-mq~~1' ~ehools; Hlpy run fn:nn . four to abOjlt tllirteen i 'Fe have ~lrel:!dy bprdel}ed thel)1 with 1'1aHY suqj~cts, amt IshPtt!4 !lCsftaFc to a.M algellrll.

9,G} .. J~ thjrtQ~1f years too yoqug ?:-~ We hav~ nwny ~llildr~ll in tlt~ fic)lqols oyer p!*~ee~! Q).1L p/,q prop,ortiql.} ~s YIl!'Y ~lnl!n, YOlf would !Flrdly ~papl} yery Y!-'HHlg chillJrml 1lIg!lfm~:' .

962. You might give them algebraic lessons when you tHe te~lC4il:g qle!H f1ripjlluptic ?-:-Ye~, th~y s~f!Je~imes ~oJ;h-M. , . ,

963. BV .Mr. Poolmetn.-One difficulty in regard to yonr scheme wf:!plfl he th~t H b~y le!!,ving silt/pof ~~ ~l!e ,~gl'! qf tbir teen !V0nid not IpF,e h!!~ ~fle adrall~}!ge ot al!y tee"nje~! ,p'~lliIJ.g at !:p, ~x!lept t.lie early Kin4erg!frt!lp.~:lf0ni,4 sneh it poy 1()~!1 JLllyt)ling )lyl}P.oving qn l~f~ern!lQfl 11· wflpk tajcfJ!f fronl !~i" pr!JJnl1fY educatiou and devoted to 111arp.)pl trllinh}g?-:f tftirk it ,!volJI,4 \)!lllx~e!!ilJ1t .for 4i1P'

9p4. rhef)dvapt~ge ~voull} pntwllig):t t11fl ~H~l1dYim~qge of his re~luep4 6t!}ml~rd of e~IH}J!1Li[m· ?-It is n very small subtraction from his Ft~rMJ 1Yol'~ ; H i'l Ql}iy in tl!~ la~~Dy!:'l~r th~t OIlI'! !Jaff7HIl-Y qpt ,of tP1l ~i):lf~4ay~ j~ t!ll~lln, it tl.oep ppt (l[JpriYfl him qf vpry !J'.]llph.

965. Bow can you train a boy who has j·o Jea ve school at thiTteClI, ut w 4iph age nlO~t ?PY'l WllO ~Ii'm' tbei! !iyip.g flY Ip,Qq!;!r go !e~ye scl!oo~ ?::-;'.L'I~q..~ i~ tllP 9bjpctiPH; Pl)t. lvh~t I ppnteYlm!a~j:l4 ~Y1)s Ph!!:t if he )Vpr~ ~ smg,rt ul1d good F!p1tf1!nr, no ITO)fld be q..mPHg Ihe miyi~!3g(j4 f~\'y; if npt, his p!!-rellts py payjt]g "~ , t,rining fep I.tRl)lq. allow hifl:l t,o gothprp: . , 9,6Q: rne pq..rpnls pf a p)1jlq' wllo til p()~ g,qing r9 stpp !H sel!opl aftflr thirtell!,Lul"p r'Rh \l.13 a rule, in ~ posi tioll to gi ve him that extra felil ?;-:-Ye,s, T rf3po!{l.)~~e t/Hlot is 1tJl ()bj(jetipn. . 967: ·n 4!t,s bp~n JIrgyp t!!~t' if ins~nu~tor~ '!p l~in!lergarteH ;yere brpught frpm England, it would take a very long time before th(!!r jnfi.IHmc.G w.<,mlqbe felt ~n the ~jn(lergp,rtell i?~hools in the whole of. ~ltP colouy~:Mr. Simpson, the art instructor, ~':!!S Qml1g~Lt oqt, :I'~!c' he not?-Ye~, pe Wits!). rn0!jt yp.lnable mll-n.

9(3,8: +ie !augh~ ttH'l pehool j,e:1CI!ers?~~ (l; !:Hc!t tll,e !tl'r training ,class th~t wa~ )lot l~dqRte4 Wl)<s ?: I~ ~flll~me 9f hi!? to Fr/!<h~ ,speci!l,l teaphpp,? to tea~4 t~lp C),thcr ~e:1qher8-he ,YCllt rpllllll, ~PJT.lillil]g tnp (JralVing, a,lld RPillpf3l} put thE! .d~f~~J:!~ in pps)lLL~~ Th!lt Rrlngs llP Ih,e qnestion pf th~ dr!l-'\vjng jl)!if!l;tp S~llO<?ls-;­I think it was in 1885 that there was an eX!lib1tion of ,Sit,attJ sc~'nC!1 ,l!r!twillg,s, caJled FI!!3.J pvellile p:~qibiti0!l -:~h~~ lv~~ !1Rfm.t tJ!e ti)11~ 1Ytr,i3~pw.~~m qll'JIl~ ,Rnt· +'~!R'?e fhmyip.g~ iYllre q,psolut,ely l·wel, ilnc! Ilil(nve(). wrong Ip~tHpd,~; !h~ iJ.~'!Pr?y~,g ~:ystePJ of .Sqnth Ke).lsipgt.on ita,(f !-JQt PPPEltl'!}ted p.er,e-]\11', SimI!~qll h:td pot !)qen ~eFe lpng pe!'pre thffFtJ ,was ,Ij- fPyq!)lfioI): "

969. How long was it before his influencc was felt ?-I)aniaHy !l~ !!!,!(}e, !mt I sh(jlll.d ~ay in p,lJC)l1t t\m ye!}!,!; ~4,er!? 'Yil:,s ~ geil~Ti!1 ohf!:Hge:

970. It would take about'thelsame t,ime before I he illll11ence of the Killtlere:art.en teacher would be felt r;-;; ~ q, po~ sl? !}lng. 'P!P gre,l~t 1~1111~ ,of HIe fepw1/-l !e,~cher~ h,~1e Reel) ITl.orR' (jr I~~,:! iH~~~llpte~ fll' it if1r!l:;,dy: 1. tl].i·n!f t ~4f))ltP I~qt 'Selld hom.G for HHJ !'ii}H!O:L;j--W.e !!ayc l?9ITl,e :'pry g()o~ teiicher~ ,1flr.e, Whef! we w~re c!!-rryi~!g <H! tIJe ~~ip<!~rgilJt~,), I1qd it \l'!~~ gqiHI:(" 0)1 vt)ry fairly, It Qr;rm!l:p YRlWg I~dy C~ll1Q ql1,~ wgh l~~gh ereqent1!lt1~ from Hamllnrg;-BlJc called jwr~lill[ !). 1Qu,dprgar!llerin:--f1W} 1 go~ hohl of ber P-"J asked her to examine somc of our schools; she testified that \YC )rere pretty ws)] up to iJlp or?infl:FY standard.. . "" ,. 971. By the Chairman.-Had it !lot j:Je~!l di"eqnt.illl1pd it wp)lld !Jare he~I.} il.} p,erref)~ w,~)}'kjng onJer to~d~y i-I SlliJ1}ld thilf~ so. i ~hq\lght it w~s in very gpOt~ melpr tllPH: '

!!7~: p'y Dr; -i/-fq-cf'qrland.-Djd ypu ta},p l} !3p'eeht! int,erf)st iq ,!cicncp ,teaph~lIg ?-J IQQ1s: it gIlPf:~ll-l interest in it. '

, , '97.3.' 'Pl,d Y9~ p.e~ir!3 fLl!Y ~lpdific~tion IIlade in tl,e I)1ethods qf I;ciencg to::tGhing ?-Np, -1" ~m !,),ot aware ~~1M f tIJd. I w!).~ ,~l1;ti~fj.134 '\Vjt,h the g~ll!tJrJ1) linI'Js 1.a)4 cj.O\y!l. We hf~4 It Ipt of spientific !}ppp.rp,tR!'! at the school s'; the teachers obtained it themsei'ves, or got up, It eQl1c,ert tp p1lfCha!?e it, f!.n~ p.~!l<r!y fl'Ypry scl:!Rpl wa~ vcry fllir~y fJq~lipppd.. ' . ~7 If: 4~ ~J}9 !?!!,PI!! tjl}le t,hJ3Y werfllJI'Jipg tFl1iqed P.:F tbe Tmini1Jg C,o)!ege iE !o'!lenmnt:ary spjppcp ?-.-Y ~!l, some of 'these lessons ,yere more than elementary ~)::jCllC!3. .

975. Pvt!¥ Chair~n,q:n~-:-::-\YfJlIld Jim b~ prop,;:rcd ~.o IPilJ!.:e ~ny mOilipc11!!on ill gl"amm,!~r as at, .pr,e,Benttaf!g!l~ ?-::-:;I do m?t kno,y \Vh,f)~ i~ tIle p'r~''!f'nt ,~yst,eJTI. Qf grnrmn::tr-J !m,o'!v 'YG \ypnt in for (Jutting it ~o~nl Y~ry !)1)1,:::4· 4t gpc ~ip.}e it 'W~s ,s!J.i~' 'Y!:l Jlall p~ised Pilr8~llg t(j l!- fin.c l}r~; i1W!lY!:l CI!~ 4o,vH sprl!-e .qt t).re t~c4pj!3ldi~j~'l of grammi!-l", P1!~~il!g in a Hptle cQmp,o'sitip!! il)8tetHI, ~4i!;h .I' thOJ,lgh twas a gr!3~~ imnrpypI)t.!)p~ j)ldp,(!Q.. ' ,

'Phe witness withdrew.

49

, MONDAY, 31sT JULY" 1899.

THEODORE

J. G. Barrett, Esq., H. C. Jenkins, Esq., C. R Long, Esq., M.A.,

Members present: ,

FINK, Esq., M.P., in 'the Chair;

H. W. Potts, Esq., J.P., F.C.S. I', F. W. Poolman, Esq., J.P.,

Frank Tate, M.A., sworn and examined. 976. By tlbe Ol!airman.-What are you ?-Inspector of schools in the Charlton district. 977. How long have you been an inspector ?-I have been on the irwpectoml staff about ten ye;Hs

'nnd a half, out of which six years were spent in the Training Institution. , 978. What is the size (If your disti'ict?-lt is olle of the largest in the colony-I should say about 5,400 ~quare miles.

97,9. How many schools are there in it ?-136., 980. Ha\'e you to inspect them every year ?-We inspect them twice a year, once for methods of

teaching, and once we examine them for results. 981. That is more than one school a day, omitting Saturdays and Sundays ?-Yes, we often have

to do two in a day. , 982. How do you travel ?-Most of my travelling is dOlle in, a buggy; the railways are of very little nse to me.

983. Is more t.ime spent in travelling than in inspecting 1-1 should say about two-fifths the time is spent in travelling. ."

984. You are going hard all the time ?-Y cs, for a good number ot: hours each day ill the week, and sometimes there are examinations on Saturdays as well. I think I average well over 50 hours per week.

9~5. Does that give you enough time for study and reflection ?-It is a C0118tant cltuse of complaint that owing to the size of the districts and the amount of work the inspectors have to do they have not time for keeping up with the march of education-it 'is only done by making very severe inroads upon what ought to he a man's leisure time. -

986. Do YOll think that that state of constant and rapid travelJing and rapidinspecting is a satisfactory condition of things ?-1 think.it is admitted by all in the Departmen~ that the inspectors have t,O? much to do. 'Ye have been hoping that as soon as the stress of retrenchment was over the number of lllspectors would be increased.

987. Was tbe lltlmber of inspectors reduced ?-Yes j thel:e are twenty now-I shonld say, roughly speaking, there are seven less than therf) were.

(188. You send in periodical reports, do you not ?-Once in two years we send in a general report on the condition of education in the district. We send in a report after each visit of the work done in the school.

989. From time to time you have made reflections in nlUr reports on the subjects that you desire to see reformed; can you inclicate generally what has been the result ?-1 think yOll will fiml that at the end Qf each general report I have written, I have indicated lhree points which I consiuer vital for the welfare of the district. One has to do with the training of the teachers, referring :;pecially to the training of such teachers as ,go into small schools. That, has not been attended to yet; but I 11Qderstalld tlmt the Training College is to be opened next year, and I expect that some measure of special training for the work of small schools will be giYen in the College. The second point "has.to do with the training of such teachers as are willing to do good work, but who, from lack of p:evious training, or from lack of natural aptitude, are 110t doing satisfactory work. An inspector feels yery often that it is not right to blame a man for not doing what he has not the power to do, and I thought the Department might take some means to provide for the training of those teachers by allowing them to visit the better schools near them occasionaJly-1 do not know that the Department has in contemplatio'n any effort to carry that out. The third point is liS to allowing the inspectors more time to keep up wit,ll 'educational progress.

990. Has any notice been taken of those complaints ?-No more than I have said, that the 'l'raining College is to be opened, and that 1 understand the heads of the Department are sympathetic in the matter' of increasing the inspectoral staff if they can get funds to do it with.

991. Have you observed any incLictttion in the Department during the last ten years of II desire to bring the educational system up to date ?-The circumstances of the last six or' seven years}JaYc been' very peculiar.; it. was VOl'y hard to provide for educational advancement at II .time when the Treasurer could not provide the necessary funds. .

992. Then has etlucatioual progress practically dried up ?.:......1 thiuk the retrenchment measures were' a very severe blow to educational advancement.

993. Education has not been progressive ?-1t waH not during the severe retrenchment period. 9U4. po YOll consider it desirable to introduce Kindergarten methods ?-1 am very strong!y in favour

of introducing Kindergarten methods.' I do not lay much stress upon introducing the formal" gifts." 995. Do you Bee mnch'danger in the ll11skilful intnldllctlon of the tlystem?-If subjects are valuable

mainly for their instructional value-that. is, for filling the mind with faets-a te!1cher who 'merely (Joes his work in a tradesman-like way, who is merely good at knacks'and methods, can do fairly good work; but if a subject is valuable for its educational value, you require a teacher who has professional skill-who is able to t,rain.' '"'".

"996. What do you think would be the result of the Kindergarten system in the hands of unskilled teachers ?-I should say it might result in much mere formalism or drill from wbich the Kindergarten

• spirit would be absent. . 997. Should 110t the teachers lle specially traiued in addition to theil' natural aptitude?­

Undoubtedly. 998. Has allY attempt been fm1de to specially train iufant teachers in this' comitry ?-"Tbere has

been no organized attempt; each inspector naturally impresses his own personality on his district. An inspector who has very decided views about infant tmining would, perhaps, by precept and by hints in the register, impress upon the head master of a large school the necessity of selecting mim:ibers Of his staff

5703. E

F'l'ank Tate, 31st July, 1898. 50

who seemed to be ll.lbpted specially for infant training, and they '.vould acquire the training ill the school; bnt no effort has been made that I know of to give snch training by means of lecturcs, .

999. Has any attempt been made to remedy the dcfects in infant instruction ?-I 'understand that Ilome amendment of the. Act is required, and that haB blocked ailY desire on the part of the Department to req uire special q naJificatiolls 011 the part of the infan t teachers.

1000. Is there any provision by which a teacher who has .shown special aptitude for infant teaching may be specially appointed to infhnt school work ?-N 0, I think not. _

1001. Were they 80 clnssified in the Trnining College ?-~No; we had a good opportunity there of finding out what the naturnl aptittHle of a tOacher was, but we were not reqnired to classify them in any w~; .

1002. Do yon thiilk the work of the Training Colleg8, properly organized, wouhl include that?­Y cs, I think the opportnnity is unique. The.student is there for twelve months nnder elose supervision, and we can, I think, form a very good idea of the work that that student is be~t suited for.

1003. Having in view the perfection of technical education, anll seeing the necessity of using the primary school as the basLo, is it essential in yonr mind to re-opell the Training College 1-1 think whether. yon introduce technical edncation at'. not the Training College is essent.ial. I cannot coneeive how yon can ever hope to make a large system thoroughly efficient witllout a well-organized system of training.

1004. Should it be open ell 011 the old lines or re-organized ?-The regulations are not yet out; I do not know definitely what is proposed to bl;l done; but there were ve'ry mauy.serions defects in the old regula­tions. They were so constructed that in the tCl). years after he left; the Training College a pupil teacheneaUy lost in salary nnd seniority by going through that course of training. If two pupil teachers, A and B, completer! their pupil-teaeher eourse at the same time, and A went into the Training- Collegc iwd gained t.he higher certificate, while B ,tent straight into the schools, when A came out of the Training College he would probably find that his old colleagne B was ahead of him in salary and ahead of him in seniority, so the worldly-wise pupil tencher did not go into th.e college at all.

. 1005. The Department l'ewarded people for not qualifying themselves in Ihe higher branches of teaching ?-It wa~ thought thnt uHimately the more highlJ~trained man wotlld benefit.

1006. But so far as the Department was concerned approximately he suffered ?-He did for a few yenrs immediately after he came from the Training College. Then, when the pupil teachers did not come forw'ard, the Training College became an independent sOlll'ee of supply-that is, those who had not been pnpil teachors were allowed to entet· by· an examination ealled "Admission to tmining." Then when retrenehment set iu, anti it was thought, the service was over-manned, the Minis-ter closed this source of supply; in' other words, he closed the Training College: .

1007. The Training College did t,,·o things-it trained people whom the Department did not employ, and it trained people for work outside the DepartmelJt's work altogethel'?-No; those people were ull taken into the Department's service, bnt it was 1\ gate into the service of t.he Department that the Minister thought could be closed. In the opinion of th03e eonnected with the College the procedure should have been,to have s(()pped the entrance in that way, find to have compelled all pupil teachers.to be trained in the Collegc. It \yas all the more essential that they should be trained when we expected better work of them. I think it lIhoultl be compulsory that pupil teachers.should compete for entrance to the College­that is, that tllOir last ('xamination for the pupil teachers' course should be the" Entrance for training" examination.

1008, Would yon give cvery facility to the other teachers to enter?-Y cs, 1 think it would profit the Department to allow any teacher who is willing to make the sacrifice to go into the Training College and become morc highly qnalified. He should be given leave of absencc from his school while in the collcge. .

1000. -VVonld. yon lw.ve the Training Collcge 'include,ill its work systematic instrnction in mannal training ami Kinuergnrten methods? -1 think' every snbject in the Training C;)llege should centre ronnd the snbject of teaching, and that thistea9hing should be so practiealas t.o fit the teacher for every branch that he is likely to tnke lip. l\hnnal training could be8t be imparted systematically in the Traiuing College,

1010. Do yon think it would be a more rapid way of spreading mallnal tmining methods to have the teache'rs trained in the Trailling Collegc·thun to issue a lot of regulations and tell the teachers to find

,ont how to do it ?-·If you have a Training College from ,vltich 50 teachers go ont every year with good ideas lelLrned from t.he lllauual it~strllctor, they will leaven the whole lump in course of time, by carrying the instruction to all parts of the couutry. -' . ~

1011. Do yon see a danger of mechanical teaching becoming universal in relation to these new subjects if they are merely iilti'oduced by regulation ,?-1 think the teachers who now teach 'mechanically wonld. take up the new subjects mechanically. There are, of course, a nnmber of teachers who have open eyes, and the professional man's outlook-who study from books, aud who can get a great deal of good from them, but there will al ways be a percentage who llOed.carefnl training.

1012. Do you think manual training is likely·to be well introduced genemlly, as a basis ror teehnical instruct.ion, by pcople who get their learning from books ?-1 think there isa danger of its becoming mechanical, nnd that it would be better to introdnce it by skilled organizers. I believe it is intended that those organizers shall lecture in the Training Collcge.

1013. They could go abont the coillltry too ?-Yes. 1014. Do yon consider thnt. wilen t,he Training College ts re-established it w~ll be possible to avoid

the mechanical defects of the old system 7-Yes. The regulations for the new College, so far as I have heard' of them, are nearly all in the direction of amending the defects that we complained ·of.

1015. It /leemed to me that the Training College was only.a training institution loosely attached to the Department-should not it be a vital part of the establishment. of the Departmcnt ?-Yes, I think it should' be brongbl: into the organic life of the Department by seeing that all the pupil teachers who are' qt\alified for admiilsion to training go throngh trainiug, that thfjre are inducements held out to them to go throngh training, and ~hat the'comse of training should be such as io give them a general cnltnre, and at the s<'tme time imbue them with the right spirit· of teaching, that is, the modern spirit of teaching. The greatest beuefit to the system would accrne frolll a well-organized, well-eqnipped college sending ont about 50 students each year, carry·lug tl18 newest and best' methods to the remote. parts of the colony. The fnnction of the college should be to·oxygenate the circnlation of the educati~n system .

. ~.

5i F1'MIk'i'ate. 31st July, 1899 •

. 10i6. If you are going to have a Training College awl rnm nnalysis into children of from six to ten years of age, will there be any valuable results from that f-1 think the Sllccess of the system depends ultimately upon the personality of the teachers and the inspectors, and in order to develop that properly we need to have as teachers people who have a fail' amount of general culLure whieh they can get ill the Training College, aud also a knowledge of the best principles of education. Having those principles, what we require afterwards is to give them liberty to carry them into practicc.

1017. You waut to emancipate them from t.he departmental restl'aint?-We sllOuld allow them to teach upon lines that are recognised by the best educational aut.hol'ities.

1018. Who are the authorities recognised ill Victoria at the present time ?-1 ,10 not know what guarantee we can have that those things will be carded out, lilly more fully than they are now; we have a properly organized Department.

1019. Yon say they are not carried out now ?-All that I am concerned in 1s that I utter a com­plaiut, and it is not for me to say why it is not carried out.

1020. When yon utter a complaint you speak, practically, into a telephone that never emits any sOllml in reply. 'Where have they written back and said-" Your complaint as to (raining is not based on facts ;" do they communicate with yon amI enconrage YOll iii any WiLy ?-1 hnve not had any communica­tion from the Department on tbe snbject of thoEe reports.

1021. They are duly received ?-We know that. they are received, because they are print.ed. 1022. You say the Training College before was not alive; what about the pupil teaching system

now; is it efficient now to carry Ollt a liyc reformed m~thod of instruction 7-1 do not approve of the pupil teacher system as we haye it in Victoria. I think the pupil teachers nrc very largely immature assistants, and not pllpil teachers at all. The pnpil teacher system, as we carry it ont here, is very differellt from the pu·pH teacher system as it was originally invented. The pupil teacher, as I understand him, is a pupil who dnring part of the day is instructed, and durillg part or the dlty teaches tIle more mechanical work. Owing to stress of cireumstances the pllpil teltchcr here' has gradua1ly been transformed into an assibtant. He has charge of a class all day, and any instruction he gets is given at the end of the day's work.

1023. The assistant or the head teacher instructs him aher they llfive both done a hard da.y's work? -Yes.

1024. That is not likely to t.nrn out good men ?-It very often means that when you get a pupil teachcr into the Training College hc has beeome sick tlnd tircd of study against difliculty, and he is sometimes case-hardened against improYement.

1025. He is practically turned into a mechanical tea~her ?-I think it is "'ery hard indeetl to make a professional man of him. I think a pupil teacher is the hardest worketl officer in the Government service.

1026. That goes against the pos8ibility of proper training ?-To a great extent. 1027. 'Ilitve you anything to say in this conlltlxioll as to lhe result system ?-I do not approve of

the system of pflyment by results. I think that in many respects it is very unfair to the teachers, but above all questions of unfairness to the teachers, 1 do not think the children get the best result of the teaching; it tends to make it very mechanical and vcry form"l indeed. The inspector, in a written examination (and practically all our examinations are written now), usually gets out from the children facts. It is easier 10 get facts from them than to determillc by written examination how they acquired th05<;l facts. I think the acquisition of facts is secondary to how the facts are acquired, that is, to the development of faculty. So loug as we have a system in which teachers are paid by the result of the examination, so long will we have instruction elevated a,bove education. The evil is intensified by the abolition of the oral examination test.

1028. That is praetically eramming amonnts to that with a large percentage of teaehers. I think that the very good tpachers get very good" results," as a rule, but 1 also think that many teachers who are not very good teachers, from the point of view of etiucation, also get very good" results" ; I use the term" results J) in a technical sense, the results that are paid for; perhaps I had better say percentages.

1029. The teaching tends to bccome cramped ?-Yes, cramped and mechanical. . . 1030. Do you regard that as fatal if it is applied to science Itnd hand and eye training ?-1 do not

see how we can well inelude the hand and eye and Kindergarten work nuder a scheme of payment. by results. These can only be tested as class subjects. Individual passes as at present would be impracticable.

1031. In your opinion there is 110 merit under the old system except the merit of making it easier for the clerks in the Department? -In the theory of the Departm':llt, and the inspector is a.ble to det.ennine by the examination which be holds the percentages of wOl'k that the teachcr has done in each particular subject. History may be appraised at 90 per cent. and arithmetic at 87'5. This affords a convenient method of estimating the teacher's worth as a teacher, and as the reports harmonize with that examina­tion, and os the classification o~ the teacher depenus htl'!J:ely upon the reports, the result system enters into almost every part of the administration ot the Department.

1032. Practically, the satisfaction of tbe Department expressed in ils report, is simply the mechanical result of the system as yon uescribe it ?-The Departmcnt knows the work of the schools by the report of the examinations, plus the reports of inspections.

1033. In its reports every year it goes only by the percentages?-You will ullderstand that we make two visits a year, 9ne of them being a visit of inspection and the other an examinatioll-the inspector has an opportunity of seeing how the work is taught.' '

1034. If YOf! are going through two schools a day with 25 miles ride between, ean you really enter into the life work of -each school adequately? - We spend two honra at one of th'ose inspection 'visits, and we can see a fa;ir amount in twohoms. I should like to be able to spend moi'e time in each inspectioll,

'and to visit oftener. 1035. You are acquainted with edncational movements in the old coun tiy and Europe; is the result

system viewed with favour there ?-Up to recent years the only three countries in the world that I knoW' of which employed the result system were England, Victoria, and MOllritius ; England has given it up, and Victoria and Mauritius are bracketed together.

1036. By Mr. Potts.-How loag"is it since England dropped it ?-Dul'ing the last five years, I think. 1037. Did you read the lecture by Sir Evelyn Oakley on the subject ?-Yes. 1038. He referred to it as a discarded system ?-Yes. I do not know of any educationist of note

who justifies the result system.

E2

The Library, ParllefT!"nt on.nclo~

J/rank Tate, 31st July. 1899:

~039. Would its abolition effeet mueh of a revolntioll in tho Department ?-In Englau(l the'~yston1 has been abolished, and one of the favorite phrase/? of the inspector~ is " the 'gre:tt revolution "-":'they keep alludiug to the ehange as "the groat l:evolution," and singing a pman or triumph as regards the great educational results they expect to accrue from its abolition.

1040. If you have a mechanical mode of measuring school work, the Department is relievcd of _ all responsibilit,y of actually viewing the real live ,York of the flchool, If it were abolished then Lho Department has the responsibility 11f satisfying ,itself in some aetllllily yisible way that the teacher's ways a're l·eallY-gDod.' Do you know how they do that in E!lglaml; is it not more by sympathetic, eloser eXllmination and by ae:ll!flly ipspecting the work as it is behjg done, apd nqt by a defective system of sn!l:P­shot e~amination ?:""'In Englan(l, before the resnlt ~ystem, was abolished, tllo visits W(lre p,e;uly all visits of examination - it was seldom tbat all inspeetor inspeeted a, school":"now they have g~ne to the athOl: extreme, n;ml they have examination by the local hodies a,nd the tea,chers, 'the records 0(' which are kept. Here we have an examination and an illspeetion; r think examin!\tion will nlways be llCcessnry, hnt when teachers' salaries Jcpen,l npou 'exall.1inatioll irillpector Iw,g to be severely restricted, and hence the teaehing becomes restricted. Smart teachers lin(l ont the rcstricticl,ls, ;md tbey t'lac\1 the cQmpulsory minimum and not the full syllabus. '

10-l1, Is he not in the nature of a detective ?-I do not think thl\t I would call him that-'-be g~es in a fair-minded way to find out, to the tests !Ie iil ~llowed to apply, what work has. 'been done, and he does this fairly r think. .

1042. I l10tiee in the English instructions to inspectors they are told to ll,void anything of the syrt, to see the teachers take the in the ordinary way a!ld 1,0 avoid uny attempts to catc,h the teachers or thc pupils tripping. Attention now direete(l'to letting tbe toaeber do his best, :,tnd to judging by the, general impression made uy the sehool work. That seems to be the reform, as t() which the illspecting staff seem to be agreed in England ?-Yes. ' ,

'1'043. The EilgIish· plan far away from our system as it can be?-Yes, H is a 1001g way from our system.

1044. 'Would tbat not practically not only l'evolutioni,ze the teaching methous but ~he departmental methods too ?-Thcre would have to be very great ehnllges in the departmental methods if the result system is to be a,bc:lishetl. In onr visits of inspection we are su,ppose(l to test l~ow th,e work is being acquired. Bnt, as I hllVe said, the inspectors are really too mneh overworked to do th\B w()rk fnlly"

1045. The features of thc examination really detel'min'l whn,t the man's pay, is, and he goes down if the results are not enough ?-:-I think there is iu all qnestiQTls affecting ~he teacher far. too much weight gi VCll to the aetu,al result Qf the eX!lmination. The inspector should have more diseretionary power.

] 046. Prantieally, the new system which yon approve of would mean a very much more live metllqd, and a less mechanicalll1\3thod, not only in the,schools but in the Depann\ent ?-J wOllld say tbi~, that if the l<:ngH"h method were sup)Jlemented by an examination, if ne()essal'Y, by the inspector, yery great good would come of it. . ,

1047. That is a qheck on tbe schools and on the iuspeetol's ?-Yes, but what I most compiain of is that where It teacher's salai'y is dependent upon the ex[uuina.tion the il!spector is restriQte,d, and the conditiolls'of the exarnillntioll are restriQted.

1048. You are a wbo~esal~ a,dvoeate for the English ~y8tern" with the additional safeguards thatyc;m refer to?-Yes, Illy ideal is to make the inspection v~sit mQl'e important, and the examination ll.1llch les s restrieted.

lOt9. Would that not involve educational experts at tile head of the Depart\nent as weU as in the schools ?~I nnd.erstand th~ heads of tho staff in thQ Depa,rtment nre regarded as experts.

].050. YOll mU5t have some live means of testing the band a,nd eye system ?-Yes, tlt<? result systerIl, as we havc it here, is designed mainly to see what facts have been acquired; it tests tapgible results. In the hmid and eye Iraining 'the, idea is 'to introduce edueatiol1n,1 method" and the C?omplete results arc of secondary importance; tiler'lfore, r think !HI examination for rElsult,s wOl\ld hnrdly test that.

]05!. Would yori say that the teaching ,staff is eomposed, of good teacbing mateJ;ial do not thinK you could find a better mass. of t9aehiug material than we have here ill Victoria. "Ve get students of excdlent mental ability as pupil teachers, and I think we l!~ve the stuff to mah ~n exceHent body of teachers.

1052. po yon' find the teaching ·i3tafi' ge~eral1y are zealolJs 1-Yes, I hav~ reported that, over awJ over again.

, 1053. The defe(lts are defects of the systcm ~-Yes, 'r have stat~d tnlt.t, in my general l'epor~ll. I think I ~tated in que report very d.e.finitely the view I have come to. In my report of the ] 1 th Mal'ch, 189!:l, r say_H The teachers of tbis distriet as a body, are earnest an4 industriQus men and wowen, doing their work as they ~ee' it, methodieally (md punctnally. '.rhey lionestly do aJI,th(tt can fairly be required of them., They are the outeomc of a system whieh lays great stress 0\1 ex:am\l]atiQn, and their great falllt-a natural one under the circl1l:!J.stanc'es-is to make the annual exaIT!iliation" !lend not educatio~" the~ mnill objective of their ;'york. Where these eOinqide all goes well, but where tlJey do nQt it is. to be feared that examllla~ion-grinding ~suallJ wins, A large proportion of th~ teachEll:~ l!llye, had but seanty tl'ainillg in method" and as a re~ult mnch of the teaehing is hard and mechaniya), lacJ!;iI1g tlJ,e variety alld adaptation t.o circn1l1stitllCes 'which charaeterize the best' work. One sees too little play,o( tIte, teacher's personality, too litlI,e ~e~(Uness and l'esourc_e\ Ul'tl ster~otyped, In perUElllJg not~;;; of le,sSQns by different. teachers I have ,been s~ruck with the. salJleness of treatmel1t, extend~pg ,even to tlw ~ml1nest dlltail!;!, ';Vitll the sapl(l,' lack of-grip, of the foundation , faet~ of the subject,and with tliE)· sa.me fl,bsenc(l Qf defillit.e pl!!<n. The p!tr~s, have no organie cOllu~xion; tbe lesson is not a nnity, but a thing of shreds and patcbes. Some tesaOl) given in pupil teacherhood, or studied ~or some object-lesson guide, is the mO,del" mH,l aU 'succeeding lessons are cramm,ed into the same mould, One gets very weary of seeing Ihe same hard-/!nd-fall.t IIle,thod,~ d!tY: after (laX' It mllst,'howe:ver, be said for these teachers that the very narrowness of their teaching, combined with steady industry, makes their work gain in intensity, and the children le,arn t.he faet.s t1!ught very thoroughly. But iUs not my ideal of good.eclueation, and althollgh I try tQ give eredit for it, 11elwe the school feeliug strongly that it is true economy to spend mut::h in ()qnipping our teaQhel's for 'the highest ,vorIc uefore, we send then] forth to teach. IIi my, district tb,ere is. no bck of ~El~X aIl4 faithf\ll dev6tion to

,dlity-. What is wanting is insight into the possibilities .ofteaching, and power t,C?, ~el1C,h with, intelligenc9

l' ... nk Tate, 31so July, 1809.

and taste. These are, I believe, communicable to a great extent. Wanting them, we mily gct t,he deft meclll1uicality of the factory' ha!ld,' bn t not the frcerlom Itnd power of thc mastcr cmftsm~n. Of cOlm e in a large finny of employes thet'c will be a varyillg percentage who canllot rise to the profes:'lOual stallllal'P. My complaint is that the percentage is needlessly large." ..

1054. Does the system of promotion affect the efficiency of the Depal'trnent ?-It alftlcts It III It very mark cd way., Most of the schools in my district nre small ScilOOls ; the district is Itll IInattractive o~le from its physical features ani! from its climate, and teaehers apply for tranefer very frequently, and ,It. Again, ill tlw junior elasses of head tcachers there have of late, owing to tlJe scttliu~ flown,of the B?rv~ce after retrencnment, been a great number of ehanges, so that out of Ihe 136 schools m my 11IS;Tl?t about 70 or 80 have changed their hea(l masters llnrillg the past eighteen mouths or two years, aud It IS

very hard for a teacher to take llP the work exactly where his pl'edeeessor left off. 1055. What is your view of the present system of plcmeutary scienee teltehing ?-I SfiY here, nndrl'

the head of General IJessons, "tbese are Yery disltppointillg." I wonld say a fairly large percentage of teachers in my district ean teach the science well, 1lIIU do teach it well, but there is n lnrge percentage who, from defect of previolls science training, have not the lleee~sary scielltific method, allli they merely CO.m-mnnicale fa(:t8 about the pump and the leyer andtlle other ~cientific apparatus. This, wanting the scientific method, is worse than useless. I think tbis defect is due to want of training.

1056. Do yon think it possible that the generai lessons shonhl be speeialized in the various districts, that is, agricultnral snbjects -taught in (1.11 agricultural <listriet, and so on ?-I think thnt if it ran be shown that those sciences have an educlttive v:tlne, ll.ml also utilitarian "niue, it is desirable that there shoull! be specialization ill the various dist.ricts. One teacher in my district-in the Mildura settloment- has been teaehing botany, and he has also been tcltching sufficient work iu connexion with the life of insects to help

.the ehildren in their home lire on fruit farms, Itnd I find good result.s have come of that. 1057; Do you think teaching them the sciences which illustrate their own life and the life

of their locality, and the business in which the community roun,l them is engnged is a good thing 1-Yes. I think that it is desirable to give the work It practical tllrn if at the same time we secure a tmly educational end, I wonld make the edueational requirement the first, bnt if we call get that and eall nlso add IItilitariltn basis by selecting the work in that way, I think it is yery llesimble.

1058. The science work can be yuried so as to be useful or educational, or both ?-I think it ean be done. I do not possess the necessary knowledge about the seience underlying mining; for example, to be able to speak dogmltticnlly. I think it is very desirable to allow an option in such subjeets as those.

1059. Is there any difficnlty in connexion with the changing of teachers in that respeet-is not tbe eontilll1al changillg of teachers eonducive to the waste of edneational rower?-Yes.

1060. How can you avoid it 0)' minimize it ?-~I do not know enough of the iune!' working of the , Department in the way of promot,ion alHI transfer to say how it can be avoided.

1061. How would yon avoid it yourself ?-I cannot give a hard-aml-fast scheme of promotions and transfers. All I eltn say is frol11 the point of view of one who goes into the schools, lind I notice the educational waste from the constant transfer of teaehers. I am told that when the system settles down a little more this will be minimized. The Department will always have to send pupil telteiHlrs' who have been aecllstomed to one clnils to small schoolH where they will have to take charge of firo OJ' six elasses, but 1 hope that before long steps will be taken to train those teachers,in that work.

1062. Are not those changes made Ilt the expense of the pupils ?--Yes, the children undoubtedly suffer.

1063. Yon could not exrect a pupil teacher who is sent np to the malleo, Itn(1 'who has been in c\.arge of one cluss in town, to Le thoroughly quaiified to teach spccin! elementary 8cience work to the fifth or sixth ela~ses ?-A pupil tcacher 'is expeeted to han) Iwel a training ill all the sciellee t,hrtt is required, hut, {lS I pointell Ollt, this work is giYell at the ell!lof lile day, and, "cry of tell, I fear, it is lll1scientific, llllsystemntic, find not flilly ilIllstrMed .. Ho wonlt! undoubtedly be at a loss to giyc the specializeJ. district science coursel:'.

1064. Do you think the time might be increased that is given to that, and, if so, conld it be increased at the expellse of gntmmar and ann lysis and things of that sort in the .innio]' CiltS5CS, 01' are you o.n advoeate of teaching analysis to infants? -1 believe there are very deeided ad vantages in the study of grammar and the stndy of language to every student, bnt 1 have not a very high 9pinion of the study of any abstract subject fol' children under the age of thirteen. .

1065. Do you regard grammar liS an abstract subject ?-Yes. 1066. One of the 1Il0st abstraet 7-Yes, it is the chief abstract subject that ,~e have in om sehool

curriculum. 1067: Is not .the view of the modern edncationist to postpone it to later years ?-I think the

'tendency in' allotting time to ~ubjects has becn t.o minimize the time devoted to subjects that are merely means to an end, and to increase tllo time gi ven to subjects that have a strong culture value. For example, with writing, reltding, and grammar, the tendency hitS been' to minimize the time given to those, al1(1 to increase tbe tin:-e gh'en to tbe culture subjects. These subjects have Hot lost very much in the teaching,

cberause writing has been taught not so much in fonultl lessons, bllt throughout cvery subject-language has been taught not so much in formal lessons, but in all lessons.

1068. Is not that a bettor way of teaching the snbjE'ct ?-Undoubtedly; and language wonld largely be taught ~hrollghout eyery subject ill the school enrriculnm. One of the chief 'aims in an iufant elass would be to teach a child to express itself concisely in fairly good English. Ten or fifteen years ngo the school time-table would show two'all(l a half to three hOllrs in un upper class ill writing. but when we increased the subjeets, teaehers found by attending to writing thronghout the day they were able to bring it down to one and a half or two hours. Similar reiinlts coulll be obtained in language aud even iu formal reading.

1069. You think th€! hanel and eye training could be tanght without inereasing the time of sehool work 7-Yes; but I think in the case of grammar, relief would have to be sought by minimizing the work t,liar, we give in such snbjects as parsing and analysis-I think those things have been made 11. fctish, and we devote an amount of time to them thnt is out of all proportion to their value. Oral and written com­position should not be re911ced, bnt., if possible, should be added to.

Fl'ank Tate, 31st July, 1800, 54

1070. Is it found that with the improved intelligence that comes with live teaehing, with the reduced time gi \'en to litcrary subjects, as much work is done u.s formedy?-Yes; that has been the ease in England a,nd Americu., and I think we can achieve any result here that they CIIll achieve elsewnere.

1071. Are there any improved methods that, you wonld suggest to \'italize the teaching by the Department sending out, circulars of instruction to the staff ?-I think during the whole time that I have known the Departmeut there has not been 'a sufficient circulation of ideas from the outside into the Department. :For example, the 'teachers and those inspectors, who are not in intimate contaet with the Depu.rtment, as the Board of Examiners are, often hu.ve ideas on teachinll, and although they have some scope ill promnlgating those ideas, I thil~k the seope might be 'widened with u.dvantage to' all. '

1072. You think the Department has attained" Nirvana "-it has no intellectual impetus from !>utside ?~I would not say that; but I think if there were freer circulation from the :members to the 'body we would more nearly approach an ideal state of thino.s, and I (tleo think that it conld be done without prejudice to discipline. Full and free circl1lation of idea.sois a condition of health in every !mch organism ,as au Education Department. '

1073. Yon rilean ,that the inspectors should be iu actual touch as well as formally report to the Department, aud what they say should be symp:1theticidly receil'ed, and 110t pllt into n letter-box, and go to four or five examiners who are not in tOllch w'ith the inspectors ?~T might put it in the form of a state­ment. I should like to see this-Suppose that in8pectors' reports show thnt there is a consensus of opinion that some certain snbject, e.g., science, is not efficiently taught, I think it is time for the Department to issue, as they (10 in other countries, a circular of information concerning the su bject, giving, if necessary, the facts that should be taught, but most chiefly the most approved methods by which the subject should bc taught. If fhe Department did that, I t,hink there woult! be an iufusion of life continually iuto the' teaching st.aff. This circular could be drawn up if teachers aud inspectors were told off to collect the information. and could be issued under the authority of the board of examiuer,;, who would those-thiI!gs, "

1074, Education is done by the teachers. You have told ns that even the inspectors are not in sympathetic touch with the Department, You simply rcport, aud there is an end of it. ',There is ltO

exclmnge of idflas between you and the Deparlment ?-I would not say that, I ad vocate freer exchange. 1075. You YOlll' ideas, but there is no acknowledgment ?-We get 'regulations that perhaps

embody suggestions. ' 1076. Do they embody yoill' own ideas or the ideas of the other inspectors ?-I do not see how they

could put into a regulatiou the ideas of each individual insDector. 1077. In yo'Ur ten yeal-s' experience have you se311 n~y receptivity on the part of the Department to

calTY out your ideas or to correct them, or to point out whether they arc right or wrong ?-There is evidence duriug the last six or eight months. 'Ve had a congress at Christmas time; the geneml hody of inspectors met and discussed edllca,tional qnestions, and resolutions were passed, and I Ull!lerstu.nd that most of those resolutions are to he isslled to the teachers in the form of regulations.

1078, You ha.d a meeting smlll110ned ?-Yes. 1O~9. That is one ill ten years ?-There was one about five or six years ago. 1080, Were you there ?-Nb. 1081. Do you not think the head teacher~ am a hody who might also, be 'placed in touch'with the

Department from time to time ?-I think it is very desirable that if radical ehanges are bein:; made in the programme t.he views of reprE'sentative teachers should be rtscertaiued. '

1082. How is allY radical change to be achieved except by coufereuce" of inspectors and teachers being organized from time to time, so tbat new ideas might find ex,pression?-TIle teachers have their confercnees, and that is usually followed by a deputation to the Minister, when various suggestions are laid befol'c him; then the teachers organize a congress at which pa.pers are read, awl educational ideas are discussed. '

1083, Do they fiud e,:pl'es::;ion ill regulations ?""':"I canuot say. 1084. lIas there been any suggestion that those conferences pal'take of tho nalure of t1'l.ides' unions,

and are not to be allowed next year r-I have not heard anything of tluit. I have attended each eongress for the discussion of' papers-there wns nothing illcendiary there. I heard that the teachers hod requested that a special eongl'ess holiday should be grahted in September, in order that the congress might be held, and I also saw it reported some~vhere that the :Ministel' was disinclined to allow it. 'This does not imply ohjeetion to the congress itself,

1085., Do you t.hink on the whole that t1lCse facts that you have admitted indicate It want of circu­lation of intelligence in various parts of the educational system ?~I lIaye already said that it is a defect, that the,circnlation is not as complete itS it might be. ' I think if some such system as I speak of as regards circulars of information were adopted, there woultl be good results in this way, that tbe inspector in a district WOllhl have all educational aim-he would endeavour to make himself an expert in some particular subject, knowing that the knowledge be aC(j'lired wonld go forth to the teachers-at present he has none.

1086. Would inspeetol's, the higb-class experts ha ve a beueficial

not the education system gain very much if thero were interchange betweeu,the !Iud the Department-would it not invoh·e the managemE'l1tof the Departmeut by

think tbis circulation of ideas from within olltwards, and outside inwards, would eUect ou all cOlleerned, and it wOllld help to educato the inspectors as well as t.he

teachers, 1087, The teachers practically show their desire for improvement by attending ]011r lectures?­

Yes; on the Saturdny before last I was lecturing 011 the teaching of geographyill Kerang, aud teachers camc from as far away. as Lalbert, which is about 38 mile~ from Kerang.

1088. How mauy hours It week would yOIl give the curriculum for science teaching ?-At present it receives r>bou't an hOllr a week in my district,

1089. To' what would you extend it at the expense of other subjects ~-'..If the extensions are to he marle bec!tUse YOJl are introducing a new sllbject, such as the special sciences that nnderlie the ind'ustries of the district, I think the science teaching ill the cOllutry schools could be extended to two hours, and it wonld he done m[hinly at the expense of formal grammar and geography.

55 Frank Tate, 31st July. 1899,

1090. You would not specialize any scientific teaching at an early age ?-At present we tea.ch no scieuce to children who are les~ than eleven years of age-that is the average age-there may be smart young children in the younger classes. -

1091. You teach analysis to children of ten ?-Yes, we are trying to teach the analysis of the four Pllrts of a sentence to children in the third class.

1092. Would yon not omit that ?-I would not omit the analysis -I would omit the parsing, which is about two-thirds of the programme in that class.

_ 1093. Are children of thirteen able to understand the subject ?-Not the subtlcties that wc require them to distinguish. I am now speaking of the average child.

1094. Do you not think the science work has greater edncative qnalities ?-For children under thirteen, undoubtedly. _

1095. If you have not the time to teach the elementary science that you would teach, and subtleties of palsing and analysis, you would let the parsing go? - Yes.

1096. You would introduce the elementary science at the expense of this subject ?-Yes. 1097. What about the apparatus that you would hayo to introduce into a school to carry out

scientific work ?-At presmit the teachers are required to have the apparatus-many of t,hem provide it for themselves-some of them raise local funds, and the Department helps pound for pouud. Others again fiud that they can employ their ownJngenllity and make very serviceable apparatll~, which is often better from a teaching point of view than the Itpparatus owhich is bought. In my opinion the supply of apparatus is not a difficult matter.

1098. Do you regard the Kindergarten methods as involving great expense to equip the schools ?­I think if the programme laid down in the Department's eircnln.r is can·jed out to any large extent there will be a fair amount of expense involved- in equipping the sehools with the permanent part of the apparatus, that is, the part that is llsed rn each lesson. I expect that the children will have to provide for themselves the material that is worked up into a picture or a pattern.

1099. Do you agree with the memorandum of ~Ir. Stewart and the generallyexpl'essed view, that, -So far as Kindergarten is coucerned, it will be as well to have skilled organizers to train the teachers ?­Yes, there is It percentage of teachers who can teach themselves, but there is another large pereentage that will be better for organized instrnction., ,

1l00. Would not you say that, comparing our system with other systems, wc teach grammar to excess-is there not. more grammar in our system than in any other system ?-Up to a few years ago I was prepared to assert that our syllabus [or the teaehers' examination was the most grammar-ridden syllabus I had ever seen, but during the last few years there has been· a change; there has been less formal grammar and more study of an English classic, and I think that ehange should be indieative of what should be aone ill the future,

llOI. You have still two and It half hours, could that not be cut down to one ?-l think it is fairer to say there is about two hours grammar teaching, and in additioll_to that perhaps an honr for composition, which is practically the ,same subject. I think the formal graminar coul~l go into one hour or one and a half, certainly one and a half hours should be the maximum,

1l02. You would substitute for that science 01' other educative work?-Yes. 1103. What are your views abont drawing ?-I am not satisfied with the teaching of drawing in,

my district; it has been introduced in rather au unscientific way. I shoult! have preferretl to see the drawing introduced ill a so~ewhat similar way to tllC practice adopted iu Adelaide, that is, the art inspector there taught in the Training College, l1nd prepared a large number of trainees in that way, and also taught those teachers who were in Adelaide or the adjaeent districts. In addition to ,that it was part of his work evidently to issue from month to month details about the teaching of drawing and drawing exercises which the teachers were invited to Bend in to the eentral department. In this way, I was informed on a visit to Adelaide recently, very gooel work was done even iu remote eountry districts by a system of correspondenc'e-all the teachers were ,systematieally instructed.

, 1104. Should the art inspector not give lessons in eountry distriets ?-Yes, I would recommend that, most certainly. ! think a country teacher, above all others, requires stimulus in this way.

ll05. Do yon think drawing copies form a good basis for technieal wOl'k ?-I think we are on the wrong lines in that respect. I cannot see what great value cun be got from merely imitatiug flat copies, but I may say the opinion of the inspeetol's is held in abeyanee peuding the appointment of an art inspector. The teacqers are now doing what they can as reg~~rds the imitation of tllO flat copies, and the geometry that they are required to do, aIltI they are producing as good results as we can expeet.

1106. Has the Department ever ttained the teachers in that respect ?-There were classes held by various llrawing masters some years I1go at which Impil teachers used to attend, but there, has been no instruction of our teachers for some time save the work they could get. from their hoad masters.

1107. vVhat do the inspectors do about that; are they all skilled dl'awing masters ?-I do not think 80-1 am not. I have a drawing eertificate, and I thiuk I am able to judge the drawing up to tbe standard that we require, but I shonhl not like to have to instruct the teachers in it.

1108. Is there mnch chane,e of the inspeetors who do not belong to the Board of Examiners influencing the departmental method ot teaching ?-I do not think we have nearly so great a chance as we should have, considering our opportunities for studying practical teaching. 'We have ourbiellnial general report, aud I hope the congress is going to be an anuual one; those are the two main avenues for influencing the Department.

H09. Do not the inspectors praetically carry out the regulations as framed by the Board of Examiners ?-The Board of Examiners are the advisory body of the Department, and practically all regulations that are made issue first from them. They no doubt give due weight to the resolutions passed by the congress. But to pass a resolution in the congress does not necessarily bring it intO' the regulations. .

III O. The result of the absence of the circulation of ideas must be a tendency both for the teachers' and inspectors to become meehanicaL The t.eachers are not paid by your reports; they are paid by the figures ?-I have already said I think the sY!ltem is mechanical.

Ill). Will it not be essential to alter this if you are going to make the primary sehool the subject of the hand and eye training and Kindergarten methods, so as to vitalize the cdueational methods and form

Frank Tate, 31st July. 1899. 56

the groundwork of technical instruction latcr Oil. You condemn this system very severely evcn from the present point of view--'-will it not be suicidal to attempt the new system unless you have more vitality in the Education Department methods 7-I tuink the result system, as at present conducted, tests facts rrminly, the proceBses yery little; and if you introduce subjects such as you propose to recommend, in which education is the m!1in end, the resu 1t system will he incompetent to test that.

1112. Will not the llew system' then eut'irely fail ?-I think that before we get allY new system on wbich edncatiomLl tests can be based it is desirabl0 that the result system should yield to somet,hing superior.

1113. How long do you give to drawing ?-If drawing is to be taught so as to be thc basis of hand and eye training and manual training, I think three or 'four hours per week is required.

1114. Your general attitude is that there would have to be very important and comprehensive changes introdllced into the system if we are to make the primary school the basis ofteehnical instruction 7 -'Yes, I llo, not see how we can sidely add any subject s to the present programme; to my mind it is far too heavy now, and if we add any subjects' that will encroach still further on the time, we mnst seek reli()f either by economizing in our teaching methods or providing some safety valve, such as optional subjects. "Ve must either reduce the time spent over such subjeets as writing, formal grammar, aUll others which are only ~ .means to an end, or devise some scheme of optional sl1bjects.

i 115. Do you think this technical education 'movement, if based on a proper system of primary instruction, woulll invoh-e very large changes 7-Yes. ,

1116. By 1111', I'otts.-You think the system of payment-by results would interfere with tbe giving of special lessons 011 sqientific sllbjects applicable to rural districts?-Yes, I think so, as' at present conducted. ' , 1117. The teachers would devote themselves to the subjects, for which they are paid, and ,leave the

other subjec,ts out :-1 think the teachers are honest 'enough to encleavour to com [lass the fnll programme, , but there would naturally be a tendency to lay more stress 011 the subjects that appeared in the payment by

results system. ' ' 1118. To the neglect of the others ?,-I say they would lay more stres3 on those subjects that

appeared in the scheme for payment by resnlts. They would be regarded by them as more essential. 1119. Do the inspectors pay much attention to examining on genfjral lessons?-Yes, I think so;

the practice is t.o test the children at the inspection, if' ther:e is any doubt that the work is not being attended to, and to examine the notes, and then the upper classes are examined individlially for the pass.

1120. You qnite approve of the idea of teachers in rural districts or mining districts giving general lessons applicable. to the surroundings ?-Yes. .

1121. And encouraging a desire in tue minds of the children to stay on the land ?-Yes. 11~2. In carrying out a system of giving elementary lessons in agriculture, dairying, fruit-growing,

insect pests, and so on, it would be necessary for the teacher to have some specific training' in those subjects ?-I think a great deal'of that instruction might be given to the teachers if the experts attached to the various departments were instructed to give lectures in the large centres whon they happened to be visiting t.hat part of the colony, and that instruction could be supplcmented by circulars sent out ,by the department concerned, or hy the Education Department,- giV~llg the latest information. I have found teachers who were giving general lessons from information quite out of date, and quite inapplicahle to the wants of the district. The fal'mei's have complained to me that such teaching was WOrse than useless.

1123. That arose through want of spccific training on the part of the teachers ?~Yes. 1124. Would you approve of 1I teacher illustrating his snbject by taking his classes to visit a model

farm, a model orchard, or lL model dairy?-I think that is highly desimble; the tendency 'Of modern edueationalmethods is towards field excursions in teaching geography and other kindred subjects.

1125. YO,u. think the introduction of that kind of teaching in rural districts would haye It tendency to make rnral life more attractive to the children ?·-Certainly, anything that would deepen the interest in the work by allowing the farmer to carry out the work in, a more scientific way would enhance the attraction of rural lire, -

1126. It would have a tendency to reduce the craze to come down to town and get into the Railways or some other'GovernmEmt Deparhnent ?-Yes, it would have that tendency; I think the introduction of manual training will be a factor in bringing about tbat resnlt.

1127. By Mr. Jenkins.-Yon spoke of pupil teachers being immature assistants, and baving'charge of classes all day; in your experience how much assistance does the pupil teacher get in telching fro'm the head teacher ?-I can hardly speak from my individual experience; in my district the schools are small, and do not employ pupil teachers, but I kIlow there was a eonstant cause of complaint a few yean ago, when I was attached to the Training College, that pupil teachers received very little formal instruction. The inspcctors have complained of that,' and regulations have been framed enforcing the duties of supervision on head :mllsters far more strictly than previously_ Whether those regulations' have been carried out I cannot say.

1128, Have head teachers sufficient time at their disposal to instruct the pupilteachers in a new subject ?-It 'can only be done in the lessons that are given outside school hours, in the one hour each day that is given. . "

1129. If a new subject is introduced into the scliool, who has to teach that new subject ?-It would have to be carried on by each member of the staff. If a pupil teacher were in cha1'/~e of a class he would have to qualify himself to teach that subject. '

1130. As best he could ?-Naturally. , 1131. Where would you expect any opposition to the changes you advocate to come from ?-I do

notthillk the main body of the teachers would oppose the abolition of the result system. There are some very goocl teachers, who get very high results, who have expressed the opinion to mj3 that., though they do not believe in the result system, they cannot afford to have it aholished. The average percent[Lge gained by' ail teachers in the colony is about 80; many of those teachers get 95 per cent., and if this ,result system

. \~ere abolished they fear that the Government would fix their salaries on the percen tage of 80, so that the teachers below that would be levelled np, ,and the teachers above that would. be levelled down.

1132. Are YOU acquaiuted with the present system ot education in England ?~Only so 'far as I can b~ acquainted withjt by reading. .

Fra.nk Ta.te, 8~at July, 1899.

1133. Are you aware thaL there it is held to be rather a disgrace for a school to require to be e.'Cllmincd ?-I understand that <tn inspector has the pOlVcr to oruer an examination if he thinks it desirable, lind that m:tlly inspectors point with some pride to the fact that the nnmber of schools reqniring examina­tion is a very slllall percentage. 1 should infer from that that the inspector would examine qnlyas a mark of disapproval, or as a meUllS of keeping up the standard-that he wue not sat.isfied with what he saw on his inspcction. I think that the inspector has the right of ordering an eX:lminat,ion if he so pleases.

1134. Yon say that 70 Or 80 of the schools in your district. have ch:tnged their head teachers within the laste two years~will that state of things continue, or has that changing come to an end r-I referrerl the matter to the Illspeetor-G~Dcral during the late congress, antI he told me he thought this defect would be minimized, but 1 do not know enongh of the melhod of classification to know as to that.

1135. What has bcen ihe effect on the schools ?-T11e effect has been to impair the work seriously in many of the schools.

1136. How would you bring about liberty on the part of tIle teachers to bring Hew things into pract.ice ?-I think if the system of paying teachers by the result of an examination were abolished, the examination an inspector might holtl wonld be freer, and he would test the work rar more broadly; much mora of the work wonld be an oral examination, ItlHI in that way the inspector might traverse a subject with It view of finding oul; not so mnch what the childrcn knew, but bow they knew it; then full ceedit would be given for a good teaching method. Then, agnin, the inspector \Vonlu lay grcat stress on the plans of work he fOlllld in the school-the teacher's notc-book antI the note-books of the children-and he wonld see thnt the teachers interpretel1 tlioir instrnctions broadly, and used methods of an advanced character.

.1137. You think an improvement ,yould take place automatically on the abolition of the system of payment by results ?-Yes; bccause the teacher would not be able to forecll:st nearly so accuraLely as he can now wlmt questions the inspector would give him. Now he is paid on a cert.ain system, hut with a. freer system the inspector might give 20 or 30 oral quest.ions and be satisfieu with a small percentage of auswers if he were satisfied timt the general trond has been towards intelligence. If the inspector knows that every child must allswer two out of three questions in history, he frames thoseql1estions to suit the ability of tile average mediocre child; hc knows Hmt the qnestion once given the children will pass or fail Oil it ; but if he had not this spectre 'of pnss or failure appe;uing in the result payment he might ask a question !tnd feel perfectly satisfied to report faYol'ubly on it if only 10 per cent. of the children answere~ it, knowing that the question was sHch that ouly ]0 per cent. of the ehildren could be expected to answer in a test of intelligence.

1138. As an inspector, you feel yourself lied dowll in an examiuation to mediocrity ?--I am tied <town by my instructions, amI ,those instructions for each subject are tlesigneu so I.hat the average child may be able to secUl'O a pass. There is a very sad loss of individuality the moment children come into our sehools, that is felt by every oue who comes into the service.

1139. Are yon quite satisfied with the science-syllnbus that you work on at present 7-I am satisfied that it contains facts about the phenomena of nature, so that children will get a knowledge of many facts that they ought to know. .

1140. In Ihe proper order ?-That I am not so sure of. I do not aItogethrr approve of the change that was made ill the order of the science lesson::; a few years ago; r think tlle old arrange­ment was hetter. I was not responsible for tha alteration in any way, and I tlo not like it.

1141. What is your opinion as to inst,rnction in mechanics in the schools ?-I wonld allow a teachm' to substitute a course of mechanics if he were competent to teach it. I feel strongly that it is wise policy to gi va the greatest possible freedom to teachers in their choice of subjects and in the method of trcatment of subjects. Speaking broadly, I lay very little stress 011 the actual suhject, but 1 Iny great stress on how the subject is taught. _

1142. Do Y011 think it wonItI ~e possible to tcach chiluren in the fourth class anything or the principle of momt'n ts ?-Yes, they could learn the principles of moments experimentally if they had a set of levers in the school. 1 consitlermnch of the science- teaching is 108t, because there is not snfficicnt experiment. There is a difficulty in they way of small schools in the transfer of teachers; the apparatus requires getting togeth~r, and the relieving teacher canuot tmvel with a box fnIl of apparatus.

1143. Is that any reason against the sp~cialization of subjeets in a district?-Yes, it is, jf you are going into the spccial i?cience ofa district somewhat deeply-if you merely mean a little scratching on the surface, no doubt any ordinary intelligent tearher could get up enough of that work to satisfy, but if yon wish to give anything more than It smattering, it may happen thllt a teacher who bas been inan agricnltural district and knows the work thoro is transferred to Bendigo, and is then required to teach the seience that underlies mining.

11.44. You say there is a great deal of dimcnlty in a small school in the one teacher having so many clnsses to instruct-couhl not some sY8tem of training for that particular work be established ill the large centres '! -I have asked in my repOl·ts tlIat even during the period when there was no Training Collcge a room in a large school might be set apart, and a small model of a conntry school be established, so that pupil, teachers could get pract.ice in t.he art of mannging severnl" classes simultaneously. "Vhen the Training College was in existence, there were two small sehoo1::: established as adjuncts of Melbourne schools, and the tminees were seut there in rotation to spend a week during their training course to learn how to manage several classes simultaneollsly.

1145. Was any notice taken of your suggestion ?-The class has not been established. 1146. You think it desirable that teachers shoultl be consulted when radical chnnges are contem­

plated ?-I think the men who stand nearest to ,the work 'are very likely to have a great deal of good information as to the probable effect of changes, and therefore it is desirable when radical cha,nges-are to be maue that the teachers should be consulteu. That has been done with good effect once or twice.

1147., Were they consult.ed about'the re-introduction of Kindergarten and hand and eye training 1-I cannot say.

1148. You knew of it as an inspector ?-Yes, it was a subject dealt with at the late congt'ess. 1149. What is yom' objection to the lise of flat copies in drawing 1 -First, that it is purely irnitati ve,

aud second, that very often tuo much stress is laid on line and not on fOl'lll. Then, again, if there is not a multiplicity of copies a child may be actually drawing a lie-he sees the copy foreshortened; he is told bv his teacher that he must draw a circle and lie sees an oval; or he is told he ml1st draw a square and he sees a rectangle.

Frank Tate, 31l5t'Jul,,..;1899. 58

. 1150. It is worse than mechaliical exercise ?-I think bad drawing from fiat copies is ; much of the drawing from flat copies iselltirely wrollg, and worse than useless.

1151. What would you substitute for it ?-Drawing fl:om flat models, snch as a leaf, and other forms that can be readily got in the elementary stages. -, ,

1152. What is the Hced for re-organizing' the drawing in your district ?-1 think. the teachers need to be clearly shovvn what are the thain objects to be aimed at in the teaching of drawing, and how best to secure them.' ' -

1153. Do yon think they have any doubt on that point ?-I think those who have'not had aJ.1y special course of training have-they have a tendency to make it imitative .. As to the means to carry out that reform, I Ilnderstand an art inspcctor has been appointed, and his duty will be to lecture to the teachers. That 'will be a comparatively easy matter.in the towns, and- if some such scheme as I have outlined, which is followed in Adelaide,.of sending out informatioll to teachers could be dev~sed, it would have very good results. ' .

1154. Would you, from nn edncntional point of view,_ make any alteration in the pl'ogramme of instruction at the present moment ?-I think tLe movement is iu the righ t direction-there was a distinct gap in Ollr programme, and that gap is 011 t.he way to be remedied by the introduction of hand alld eye training and manual training. As to Kindergarten, I think there is a fair leaven of Kindergarten methods alreRdy ill our teaching, without the special" gifts," Iwd 'it is very desirable that the Kindero'arten principle should be introdnced throughout the subjects. '"

1155. Do you think it would be desirable til separate the Kind9rgarten work from the ot.herwork of the school ?-No, I would like to have the' Kindergarten principles employed ill the work of each, class. I do not thillk there is anything ,special in Kindergarten work to justify its being relegated to a special part of the school curriculum; it ought to leaven the whole thing. If Kindergarten is merely a lesson that is taught at one pal·t or the day, and if the other subjects are not the better for it,.it would be better that the Kindergarten should never appear in the school. _

1156. Yon think the Kindergarten would be stultified by.such an armngement ?-Yes. 1157. Would you have a Kindergarten instructor sepamte from tbe other instructors ?-1 would

prefer to haves definite appointment to a school, known as the infant mistress appointment, and before the vacancy could be filled steps should be t.aken to see that a properly qnalified person was put into it. -Sup­pose it were ciflssifieq as a third-class position, th~ Department should have power to say that only a pro­perly-qualified persoil should get that posit,ion, und not the senior person in the third class.

1158. Do yon think that is a thil'lf-class position ?-I think, theinflLnt mistress should be the highest classified female teacher in the school.. "

1159. Do you think the present system of putting the whole school under It male t.eacher is a good one 7-1 think it is desirable to haye a male teacher the head of the whole establishment. I wonIa bave

, the school organized from the iufant class to the sixth class--~here shonld be the same educational aims going through the whole establishment. In Oi'der to bring 1hat abont" the teachers s_houId be organized, and should meet together alltl discuss methous under the snperrision and direction of the head master, and tho whole school-should be toned to that.

1160. Are there dissimilar aims in the schools in the one district 7-Yes, very often; I think it is quite possible to have perfilct discipline in a district, and yet different tel1elIers having different ideals of their work. I tyonld not wish them all to slavishly follow my idellls, for instance.

1161. . You have an honest conviction that the infant teacher should be under the bead master ?­Yes. I know' that in places where t;here are separate infant schools not belonging to the same establish­ment this system works well, but if we have a huilding, as we have now, and cortain rooms are cnUed the infunt school, and certain other rooms are llsed for other purposes, it is very des,irable that the whole build­ing should be under one head.

1162. Do you think there is any in having separate schools ultogether and teaching the infants apart from the jurisdiction of thc head master ?-There would be some gain if we h~l separate bnildings. The mere fact of those schools being infant schools would give a bent to the teaching 11IIIt perhaps it does not get when teachers are transferred from one part of a large school to all infant school and vic-e versa. , 116:3. Are you aware of that tmnsfel' being frequen~ '7-1. should be fl'eqmmt. One of the factors

of a pupil teaeher's training is that during his course he should have some praetiee at each of the classes. 1164. What is good for the teacher is bali for the -child?-I am not going to jllstify the pupil

teacher system, because I believe it-is radieally wrong; it trains the teacher ltt the expense of the child. 1l65. You consider there' should be a radical difference in the teachillg of a yOllllg child and one of

ten or tweh'e ?-1 consider the teaching should be adapt.ed to the particular stage of a chilJ's mental development. The method that would be the exact method for ::t ehild of t.welve would be a yery bad method for a child ill au infant room. A child in an infant room needs to have his senses made more active, and to have them disciplined; he needs to be particularly strong in ob~crvation, and to have- that observation disciplined. In the npper classes the need for speeial sense training is much less, but, he is capable of being taught to form fairly complex judgments.

The tvitne88 withdrew.

AdjoUl'ned to Friday next, at ha{fpast Two o'clock

59

I<'RIDAY, 4TH AUGUST, 1899;

. Members p1'esent : Tm:om:iRg Fum, Esq., M.P., in the Ohair;

J. G. Barrett, Esq" I J. H. MacFarland, Esg , LL.D., IL O. Jenkins; Esq., F. W. Poolman, Esq., J.P., C. R. Long, Esq., M.A.,' H. W. Potts, Esq., .T,P., F.e.S.

Frank Tat!;', M.A., fUl'ther examined. 1166. By the Chairman.-Do you desire to add anything to your evidence as to Kindergarten?­

f can hardly recn.1l aU the evidence I gave, but I should say it is very desirable that the spirit of the Kin­dergarten should permeate the w bole of the work of the lower school.

1167. You spoke about drawing; what steps Imve been taken in YOllI' district to organize the study of drawing ?-A number of the teachers in my district have had very little instrnction in drawing; many

, of them when they were assistants and pllpil teachers attended classes that were taught hy the visiting masters who were dispensed with abont the time of the retrenchment ela. I do not know of any organized lectures that have heen giveu of late, but I know that the Department l)roposes that the newly appointed art inspector sll!1,l1 give lectures and every informat.ion to the teachers, and endeavour to organize the instruction in that way.

1168. You think that is necessary?-Yes. 1169. I gather that all schools in the colony, town and conutry, mining and farming. are laught

exactly thc same subjeets in the same way; in YO,ur opinion, is that desirable ?-l think it is very desirable that as much freedom as can I:>e given to the teachers in the choice of subjects should bc given. I think there are very grave dangers in confiniug tbe education of all tbe children in the colony to exactly lhe same suhjects. A man's mode of thought is very largely conditiolled by the amonnt of information that he hns, and by the mcntal processes he went through in getting that information,. and I thillk that it is desit·· ahle, especially in a democracy, that we should have,as large a variety of charactcr as possible. Teaching all children exactly the same subject tends to -a uniformity which is positively dangerous.

1170. Does it tend to make them all wallt to have Governm'ellt billets in town ?-I think the tendeucy in the past has been to attend to the literary side of education, and 1I0t sufficicntly to the manual side.

1171. It does 110t tcnd to givc them a sufficiently high idea of the dignity of YlLrious pursuits in the countrv ?-I think it does not tend to do that.

·1172. You think the curriculum should tend to do that, ?~I have already said, from an educational point of view, I approve of the introduction of manual work.

1173. In your district is there any manual training in the schools? -I think I can say there are two schools in which a little manual training was given purely as all extra. In one particular case the head tea.ehcr had a hobby ill that way, mlll' he used to invite the children to do what he called bnsy work, which wall practieally a form of manual training, ont of school hours.

1174. Have you any sehool gardcns or experimental plots ?--I had one that was fairly stlccessfnl ; the teacher was enthusiastic, amI he used to do good work in gelting the children to observe carefully the results of various experiments that; they performed with miuiature plots, but he was removcd, and the work WItS not carried on by his sueeessor. ~t is only fair to say that, the climfite of the district is very much against work of that kind. I cannot speak witb any authority as to other districts.

1175. There is more rainfall ill other parts of the colony?-Yes. I think it very desirnble that school gardens should be encouraged; thm'c are very mlLny valuahle mentnl results that will follow.

1176. Is it practie,able "'ith (he present staff ?-Yes, and I have heard of cases where teachers are doing good work in that way. '

1177. You know it is cncoul'n.ged ' in the old world?-Yes. I visited some school" in South Australia, and I saw very ,well-keptsc!Jool' gardens there; it was onc of the subjects of the school curriellium.

1178, Whn.t work may profitably be dorw ill relation to science underlying agriculturc in primary schools 7---1 have llO expert knowledge of what is proposed to he tanght, but I can simply repen.t what I said before, that if a body of scientific knowledge wcre put forward by agricultural experts whieh can be taught in snch II way as to be educational, fmd if at the same time it has a. utilitarian va!ne, I think it is desirable that the work should be taught, but I should not add it to the programme for its utility aloue.

1179. Fromnyour reading, do you ·think that end has been compassed in other places ?-They n.ppear to be suceessful in South Australia, to judge by whn.t I have read.

1180. Is any cooking taught in your distl'ict ?-No. 1181. Is it not desimble that it should be taught ?-I think that it would be of benefit to the

travelling inspector if cookery were ta1lght throughout the dist1'ict-I do not know of a country inspector who is not II martyr to dyspepsia.

1182. As to manual training, would YOIl exclude girls from that ?-There is already a modicum of manual tminillg in the sllbject of sewing, and if the sewing is thoroughly well taught I think that tho girls might be excluded from other manual training. At the same time, in my district a large percentage of the girls are taught hy male teachers, and there is no sewing taught in tho~e cases. I thiuk the girls might do such work as cardboard work, whieh does not require auy great strength .

. 1183. That is the most junior of all mannal training ?-Yes. _ 1184. In connexiol1 with the intrQ,luctioll of hand and eye and manual tr<lining, you said, in you I'

opinion, you approved of having organizers, would you need to have visiting experts for the country dis­tricts ; ~t w?uld scarcely he feasible to expect all the teachers to come to .i\'l:elbourne to be taught ?--'-No, hut I thmk If we had experts we should begin IJ. eourse of leetnres here, and the Department might allow teachers to qualify themscl ves, and those teachers might visit centres and impart instruction to the teachers on 'Saturdays, or some days oil which the schools might be dosed temporarily.

1185. If that were done, how long would it take to infuse the principlcs of manual training into the staff ?-I think it could bc done in n ycar at the outside.

1186. You al'e satisfied that, if properly organized, the present staff of teachers could readily acquire the necessary knowledge of teaching ?-Yes, if properly organized.

, Frank Tate, 4th Angust, 1899. 60

1187. COl1hl payment by re"slllts be appropriRtely applied to mannal instruetion ?-I think not, because the 'l11'll1un] tmilling is intl'odueed as a tmining, the very nllme implies (hat, and ill an examination for results (he results tf'sle,1 are mllillly titc;.a<:qllisitinn of facts, or the makiuO' of a comple(,e al'tiele. Writing, for example, is a form of lllltlHuti training, but at Iln examinat:iollwhat '~ve test is the perfected w~rk of Ihe child, rather thall how. he t,nrned it out, and in mannal tmilling the importaut thing is how the chtld has done the work.

. 11.88. Do yon consider the time takcn for manual training subjeets w~uld prejlldieially affeet the otner subJeets ?-U all that is claim('cl by experts for' mamml trttiaing is correct, and I sce 110 reason to doubt it, thc elncatioual effeet of manual tmining would really work in fay our or the other subjects.

1189. Do JOU eOllsitler it safe to Gnild the technical movement 011' our'present primary system, as it now is ?-1 poinled ant what; I eOllsi,lerecl to Ge some (Iefects of the syslem, anti I Ihillk that it is a matteI"' for grave eonsitlemtion whether the technical system ean be based 011 a system that is pel'lneated w5th the result system, The best reS11 Its of t.echnical edncation are possible on Iy where pupils ha.ve had a so[mi! mental training ill t.he prinmry school.

ll90. You think that is;1 stnmbling Glocld-My view may he extreme, bnt I should eertnihly say that'olle of the first requisites (If an educational system is that it sbonld tend to develop mental powel', and I think thc examination should be 'free ellough to test ,,'hetlIer that mental po'\\"er is developed. I do not think that our result system tests this adequately; it does to some extcnt, Gut not adequately. I therefore think that allY building on it woult! havB to be dOlle very carefully indeed. '

1191. ,Is payment by results a 80rt of forbidden 8ubjeet with the inspectors ?,~1 air my views on it as openly as I can. .

1192. Has any poli<:y of the Department been commnnicated to the inspectors re<:elltly ?-Not that I know of-it has not been commnllicated to me. It is faidy well known that I oppose the system.

1193. You complain of the present system, that it does not dcvelop the faculties or individuality; woultl that be removed by technical instrnct.ion ?-A well ordered system of mannal training lind Killller­garten will have for it,s ,'ery first requisite the keeping of the individuality of a child. For example, s1lppose wood work is done, if proper care is taken there will \;e no interference with the chilcl at all, but everything from his first sketch right throngh thc drawing of his plans to the completion of the subject" will be left to his own individuality, so if those subjects are properly tanght I thillk tlte individuality of the ehild must Ge preservetl. The mental results of this would rcact 011 the other sehool snbjects.

1194. What time in t,he week could be elevoted t,o hand and eye trni'lling ?·-I should say from one to two hours. '

1195. How would YOll finel that time ?-I would Ge in fayom of cutting down the work in formal grammar, and to some extent in geography, but I hold that the- progmmme as we have it now is a very extem1ed onp, and that we ought to seelll'e freedom \;.1' milking some subjects optional.

1196. Commencing at cla~s IlL, amI going Oll, what sqbjects would yon reduce?-1 do not think the 3rd clas.s programmc is "ery hard to eOlllpass now, bIlt there might Ge some slight lightening in cutting out the parsing of the 3l'll class; we alre~<ly provide for the analysis of easy sentences, and there is a fair amonnLof composition, and if we take the composition as nffeeting the ability to express thought correctly in writing, there 'will be sufficient mentHI training in keeping to the amilysis. Class IV. at present has rather an exten(led course of history; to my mind it is far better to teaeh history in that class hy laking ablJut a dozqn good hiographies aud teadtiug them as historidal centres. If the School Paper had a fair amonnt of connected history to be tallght ,as reading, I think the time fllr history as now given might Ge lightened. Tbe topographical \York should be givcn as oral class lcssom.

1197. h there filly country in the world where they do lIot tcach history, so far as their own eOlllltry is coneerneo, iu ~ cOlltinuollS way ?-~I cannot say whether there is any c01l1l1ry where the history is not fanght in a cOllllected way, Gut therfl will be n cOlluexioll in the history that I speak of. I think gh:illg children a· mnss or generalizations from a book of concisc outlines violatos ocllleational theory. I peerer a short course of-hiography that wonld be gOlle into thoroughly, snch Giography to form a centre rOlln'a which tile work would be grouped; yon ,yould develop the work ill t.he Hext class; the school course eouid be made a connected whole. Bl,It what I ,rant to see is, instend of a mn::>s of discolllleeted bets, as history very often is now, that we should have an organized. whole.

1198. Then, practieally, it is diseollueele,j facts by rea~on of the division of the class work 7-I think the telllieney in dividing it as it, is now is to iutroduce children to.generalizations Gefol'e they bave really the pO\yer of grasping thosogenernlizationil. Then, with regard to geography, the Departmellt has alrcady cut down the Amollnt of inforroation rcquirecl in geography. The new scheme has not been in opemLionlong enough to express nn opinion about it, but personally I am in favour of cutting clown the amount of topog'mphieal detail required. I think if It child get.s a ren.1 interest in geography from having it skilfully taught, and if he is taught how fo IlSC tho atlas, and interpret it, we do ellongh for him. If any geographical m oHe I' comes up in every,tlny.life, the papers nearly always pl'int a map.

1199. Yon would reduce the amouut of grammar throughout ?~Yes. , , 1200. Would y'on make any alteration in nny othel" sltbject 7:-1 do not think any saving can be made

in the. time given to arithmetic, I would like to have the arithmetic rc-arrangcd, bnt I do not think it wonld resul t in any saving of ti ll1e.

1201. Do you think limiting the time giveu to some subjects wOJ[ld give us the neeessary two honl's , for hl111d and eye training ?-Y <ls.

1202. Yon think that might be enough? - Yes. 1203. Assnming you got thissyslem, how wonltl yon satisfy yourself that the' subjeeLs were well

tanght ?~1t would be necessary_ in tesling the mannal tmilling amI the Kindergarten subjects to see the elasses aetually at work; that wonld be dOlleat whitt we eall onr in'cideutal inspection visit.

1204. Is not that the modern 'theory of inspection generally in all subjects, HO far as Englalld is eOllcernqd ?-In the United Kingdom the tendency is that wny. Some three years ago they nbolished the system of examination, alHI substituted t,he system of inspeetion with the power of elCamina~ion, if necessary. •

1205. An examination uncler the lIe;v code is somethillg that, .frorn ,the very fact of its having to occur, is a strong inciictincnt of the .sehool ?-I Hllllcrstltlld from my reading of tho English reports that a t,eacher whose school had Geeu oruere(l for cxamina~i.on would regard it as a slight. I hnve~heanl the system describeCl in this way-the ten,cilers. are l'eqll~red to keep rilftny re('ordst,hLLt are at preseut 1l0t

L

6l Frank Tate, 4th August, 189\}.

:l,·mattbr of departmental regulation hero; for example, they musl keep -programmes of the work that they propose to do-they must keep a record of the work done by the children; in fact, all such records as will enable the inspector, when he examines the sehoul, to test the work actually done. If he so desiree, an inspector inspecting a school, and finding that a !!ertain lesson was giYeJ1 on a certain date, might call for snch records from the children and the teucher as would satisfy him that the work W,lS really gi I'ell, and given well. In additioll, he would 'Obserye the methods of the school, ana if he were !lot. saLi~!le,1 he might order an exltmination to be held on a fixed date. I think you might diffcrelltiate bct"reen the method adopted here and the method adopted in England in this way, that here \\'e examille for results thltt a child can put down on paper, but the practice ill England llOW is to test the methods hy which those results have been obtained.

1206. And so test the efficiency of the teacher?-Yes, the inspector will test the educational results; that ii', the mental training i'ather than the mass of information the child has acquired.

1207. The ElIglish system now is practically It system to decide upon the applicat.ion of State fuuds to schools that are not State schools ?-Yes.

_ 1208, If the schools are taught c.ffieiently they get some of the Goyernment money; the system is elastic, and it does not aim at similarity all over the cOUlltry but it is necessary in compr.ring the two to uote the difference in circumstance. There is local control in tile English schools such as we have not here. Practicallv all matters are dealt with iu the central ofTlce ill Melbourne.

1209. There [s .local management, too ?-Yes. 1210. They manage their schools locally, llnd whet.hel' they get State money depends upon

whether Lhey teaeh the schools properly? -Yes. . 1211. Is that system preferable to our own ?-1 think the conditions of teaching should be made

as easy ami free as possible. We sacrifice much to uniformity. 1212. A French educationalist 8aid-" At a quarter to eleven every child iu France is learning the

same lesson"; that is not the spirit of modern teaching ?-N 0, the very reverse. 1213. Is it the Victoriull system ?-No; because, although we have the' same examination and

the same syllablls in aU schools, we do not prescribe to the teachers how they shall teach, so long as they get the reSH It. . ' _

1214. Ha\'e you J1ny idea of the cost of material for the manllal training ?-Ko, I have not gone into that.

1215. Woultl you prescribe It limited number of coursos ?-~o, I think the manual training work should be as various lis possible. We wish to try and keep the individuality of the child, and I think we should also try to foster the illdiyiduaJity of the teacher. A man may be able' to do good work in one pltrticular medium Itnd not in anot her.

1216. Hlwing regard to the local requirements of the district and the likely avocatioll of the child in that district ?-Yes, if it is alwltys kept in view that the work is introduced for ite educational result and not its utilitarian result. We want to give a general training rather tha!l a special trnining.

1217. Have you any experience of cardboard or wood work?-Not in Victorian schools, but ou It visit to South Australia I took the opportunity of going into schools amI seeing some work that was done there, Some of it was very good; it did not strike me, from what I could gather, as being thoronghly well organized, but I saw one very good lesson in wood work thltt was earefully based on drawing, and each step was worked out well. Each child was making a bread-board, and some of tho children had actually designed the drawing round the Illat'gin of the bread~board; others were working from tbe teacher's design, and had carefully worked it out. Some arithmetic was involved, and the arithmctical caleulotions in finding the radius appeared at the Lack of the board, so the BU bjeets were inter-connected. The drawing baving been done, most of the cbilil.ren were engaged in carvillg it out, ani! were doil).g really good work.

1,218. Have you studied the wood work system or the slojd system ?-When I knew that it was in the minds of our educationalltuthorities I read a little on it, and since onr Department has expressed the wish to take up manual training, I made it my bUHiuess to read what I conlcl on the work, but I have no practical knowledge of it.

1219. Have you considered the co~t of introducing those new studies ?-I think in the more advanced work, such as wood work, there will be a considerable cost.

1220. What would be a considerable cost ?-I think each school will require special rooms fitted up, and that will cost money, but jf the subjects are good, and I believe tIley are, the Department must be prepared to find the money.

1221. Is drawing a compulsory subject now?-Yes, and the Department has made an important change this year in the method of testing the drawing. Previously to 1899 the drawing got a class pass, equivalent to half a pass for each child, bnt now the pass must be an individual pass, arid It full pass is given-that was done in order to encolll'age drawing.. , .

. 12~2. Do you believe in black-board drawing fol' childreu ?-I have heard that vcry good work is being done in American schools by baving a black-board right,round the school ; t~le children are allowed to work at the black-board round the room. 1 think thaI; very good educational results will accrue from that, but we have not the means of testing that work in Victorian schools.

1223. Would that. be very expensive in a 'small school ?-Not very. The lining of a .school-room could, without much trouble, be. converted into a black-hoard; in fact, some of my teachers do that now-they colour a squltre on the wall and convert it into a black-board. '

1224. Are the object lessons satisfactory ?-Thel'o is an importlll1t change introduced into those. Previously to this year a teacher might take anum ber of isolated subjects, and he would gi ve object lessons on those. Those were not thought to he satisfactory, so the Department, following the English code, has required the tea.chers to arrange graduated courses of work. There will be a comse of work taken up in the 1st clas8 ; in the second year the child will be taught the same subject developed, and in the 3rd class the children will.he taught the same subject further developed. In the 1st clnss they will learn only such obvious phenomena as appeal to children 'of six,or seven years; in the 2nd class they will go further, and ill the 3rc! class still further, into the subject, the idea being to make them development lessons, and to see that the teacher develops the subject in proportion to the ability of the child.

1225. You say the general science lesso!ls formerly were unsatisfactory, why is that ?-My district is a peculiar one; it is not attractive; from itl! distance from Melbourne and its climate, and teachers

Frank Tate, 4th August, 1899, 62

transfer as soon us they can, Many of tho schools are very small, and. there is a difficult.y in get.ting the apparatus, and the science lessons tliat are tnught without experiment re511lt in lessons simply for the acquisition of facts, and they are not satisfactory, Tlwn, again, I have sometimeshatl to complain that teachers who tftke charge have not the power of teaching accol'ding to scientific method, and a lessoll is sometimes given in which loose IUld slipshod definitions are cOlllmitted to memory. As science leEsons tiley are worse than useless.

1226. Do you ever find tilat schools are in charge of pllpilleachers, or senior pupils ?-Not i3, my district, because, as a rule, there is only Olle teaehe!' in the school, and jf the teacher is' away there is no ~ili~ . .

1227. Are the pupil teachers taught science?- They have 0. course 9£ science, find they have examin!1tions' in science. I understand t!lere is an idea in the Department to try lmd o-roup the pupil te:.cliQrs for their instruction. .. '"

1228. You condemn the present mode of compelling masters to teach them ?-1 think the scrappy teaching at the end of the day's work does not produce goot! work.

1229. Are they examined now ?---:·Yes, the pupi( teachers are examined ill sciencc. The examina­tion is not a searching one. o 1230. Have yon suggested ali lhe alterations yon ean think of to make room .for manual training?­I think that we, in common with other countrieE, nre apt to follow the ideal of quant,ity rath",r than cducational quality. The renson for this is oft~n, I think, the false assumption that a child's' edue;,\tion is finished· when he leaves school, therefore he is gi,{Cll eal(h and every subject which it is desirahle that he should know some I hing of. The truer view ie, that if a fe\y subjects arc well and thoroughly taught mcntal Ilower' is developed, and best of all, permanent lind enlightened jnterest is aroused. Therefore there is not so milch. reason for insisting npon a child acquiring so much information a;s be now does beforc'}18 leaves school. One witness told yon hc had never been tailght geogt·aphy. I do not think that is a blemish. If a man has been taught to nse his mind well, [tlld if he knows how to use II. work of reference, he will soon overcome any litlle lack in that way.

1231. Whnt option}!l slibjccts wonld you have ?-I should say history and geography might be made optipual, but I have not thought out a scheme.

1232. Yon would absolutely reduce the subjects in the way you ha,e mentioned, with the view of making room for this manual work, and if the manual work should grow by re;tson of its attractive­ness . .and utility you wonld make room for it by thosc optional 8ubjeets?-Yes, but quite apart from mannal training it is far more uesirable to teach a few subjects 'thoroughly aucl efficiently, in orller to arouse interest in education generally anu give mental power, than to have a number of suhjects and givc ollly a smattering. .

1233. Speaking generally, you think thel'e is l'oom for the illtroductioll of manual training ?-I think so. I do not think tllere i5 room for tlfe introduction in State schools of any special technical training.

1234. By 111r. Po/ts.-Seeing that in your opinion it is desirable to introduce popnlar lectures iuto State ~chools on the ruml occnpations of the people, do you think that payment hy results will interfere with snch a system. If the system, of payment by results is persevered with, will those exj;1l1 subjects be ade­qnately taught by the teachers 7-1 think if YOll have It system of payment by results it is unfair to the teaehers 10 introduce subjects that will take off their time and attention from lhe subjects for which they receive payment.

1 :.l35. By Dr. l~facFal'land.-Are there any snggestiolls YOll wish to lay before the Commission for the purpose of improving the drawing instruction in State schools, such as the training ofteacliers ?-1 bwe already denlt with that, but I may say further that the Department proposes, when the Trainillg College is re-opened, tlmt all pupil tenchel'S going through the college shall receive a full course in drawing; that the newly appointed drawing inspector shall oceusionally address the inspectors in order to have unity of .aim throughout the colony, find that he shall visit the nJ.riolls eentres and instruct the teachers there who have !lot the opportunity of coming to the Tmining College. . .

1236. Are there any changes you desire to sec made in the teaching of the different cl,tsscs 1-I woulu like to see the seale drawing and mechanical dmwiug iITJproved. Most of the scale drawing in my district is merely ilrawing from flat copies, it is not scale drawing from ohjects. I have secn scale drawing in SO'\1th AUstralin, where a different object was given to eaeh child, and the children worked ant the drawing to scale from that, and made a very presentable lIT/Hving for the inspector.

123i. Do you desire to see any change ill the arrangement of the desks in Ihe school-rooms in order to improve the teaching of drawing ?-Many of our rooms arc most mlsuitable; t.he lighting is not always satisfactory. Often it is really prejudicial to goou' work. 'Ye appear to have adopted the English pattern in the shape of oqr school-rooms·-that was a long rectangular room divided off by curtain8.W e have di vide(l them off with bricks and mortar, bnt the .oblong shapg remains. I think that the ideal school-room should approach tbe shape of a squu-re .

1238. Will not the liew regulation for testing t!le worktlone in this subject improve matters ?­I think so. The alterations are in the direction I desire. Drawing is now elevated to the same importance. as writing or reading. . ' .

1239. You say that the greater part of the scienc~ teaching is in the nature of gen:eral information as to scientific facts rather than scientifie instruction; would you desire to see any altet'ation there 1-I should say that will right it.self with the increased training of teachers, and whcn more freedom is given in the method of examination. We haye the power in test.ing science to substitute an ornl for the written ·examination. I do not know what thc. practice of the inspectors is generally, but in my own case I prefer the oral examination, and ge:lerally usc it. Perhaps that is one reason why I am dissatisfied 'Yith the results obtained, A written examination is very deceptive in this subject..

1240. That is a simple testing of results, not of the method of teaching ?-With an oral ex~mina­lion, if he has plenty of time, the inspector can test the method. ·'1 ask for t4e apparatus, call a ehIld out, and require him to use the apparatus. I may draw diagrams of apparatus, and require tlie child to explain faots iu conriexion with them. .

124 L W oulLl you be in favour of introducing mll-uual training in all schools, or only in centres where a Humber of schools conld work together in the afternoon 7-1 think the work laid down in the Department's courses, except wood-work, could be introduced into a118chools, but such w-orkas wood-work, that requires .tools and materials, is only suitable for centres.

63 Frank Tate, 4th August, 1899.

1242. You have a general knowledge of the different systems adopted in English centres and on the Continent in regard to manual training find wood-work; is there allY one that you approve of ?~I know most of tbe sJojd, llnd as that is purely edllcational, D!ttumlly it commends itseff to me. It appears to be thoroughly worked on", llnd heing bttsed on drawing, ami secming the individuality of the child throughout, it seems to me to meet our requirements, but I am not sufficiently acqnainted with it practically to know what its defects mav be.

1243. That Is not the system adopted in the English centres ? -No. ., ]244. By l}j'r. Lon,r;.-Do YOll think the ilUmber of snbjects the teachers are now required to take

up is too many?~ Yes, I think the teachers as a body think the present programme a very heavy one. There was great anxiety expressed at the beginning of this year when manual training was spoken of, and when various changes in the programme were allnOllllced. Many of the teachers complained that the programme was already a vcry hard olle to get through.

12,15. Do any of those subjects go further than they shouhl be taken in a primary school ?-Some of them do lIOt go far enough; grammar goes too far, but others do not go far enough to imluce a permanent interest ill the subject.. .

1246. You are in favour of reducing the number of subjects alld of increasing what is required under some of them ?~I would raise the standard in some, and to aHow of that I would permit some other subjects to be takeu at the option of the teacher.

1247. Coulll a regulation be issued wilh our present system of payment by results that would permit of optional snbjects being taken ?-1 think if optional subjects were introdueed it wonld be verydifficnlt indeed to examine for results. The payment by results system is based upon thc assumption that thc work is similar in every school in the colony. That is one of the evils of the system.

] 24R; The result system has some advantages I suppose ?-I think the result system has clone good work sinee its inception herc. At the beginning we had teachers who were untrained men; Illany of them came into the service Qf tho Education Departli1ent from other occupations, ami it was necessary to bring all those teachers into line, aml have something like llniformity. It was also necessary at .the inception of the system to have some scheme by which every child should be attended to, and not only those who appealed naturally to the leacher by their cleverness, but I think we have outgrown all that. We lmye a body of teaehers who are quite capable of doing higher work, and if so, it is only economy to oJlow them to do it. My complaint is that the machine is a good one, and that we do 1I0t get thc best out of it. '

1249. You think the teachers would do as good work under a system of fixed salaries tis they do 110W under the rcsl}lt system ?-Undoubtedly; it is a reflection on the honesty of the teachers to think that they are capable of doing good work ouly uuder snch a system.as the payment by results.

1250. It is stated. in the bst report of the London School Board that the work of examination, which formerly was undertaken by Government inspectors, will 1I0W fall chiefly on the head teachers; do you recognise that tlHit is not· quite possible in this colony?-The Department has f.l. ~'egulatiol1 requiring teachers to exallline their schools every quarter, to keep the.results of' their examinations, and those are submitted to the inspeetor. Where the examination enters into almost every part of the departmental regulation as it does here, ami where the teacher's promotion is intimately connected with the examina­tion, I can nnderst!1l1d that there are difficnlties in the wav; bnt other colonies, such as New South Wales and South Australia, can get on withont the system of'l;ayment by results, and they have a very similar system of management.

1251. Do they abolish the system of anllunl examination by an inspec'lor ?-No, and I do not think that it is desirable to do so. I wonld have the examination, if possible, far more searching than the present one. My complaint is not against examinations. I think an examination by an outside perSall, eoming from the Department, is a good thing, but I do object to tho restricted examination that tests the acquisition of facts rather than the method. Where the teacher's pay depends upon the individnal passes, the examination has to be It restricted one in order to ,protect the teacher against the idiosynemsies of the inspector.

]252. If a teacher complainellthat he had not received fair treatment from the inspector in the general examination.on his methods? whut check would there be on the inspector; have you ever thought of a scheme by which it would be eertain that justice wonld be done to the teacher ?-No matter what scheme you have YOll must tl'llst some one; you must trust the inspector. At prese.nt the check on the inspector is that he must send his questions and the children's answers to the Department to be checked if neeessary, and the same plan could be adopted; the inspector could send his questions and the answers, and if he reports. that the work is very bad, and the teaeher appeals, the Department can turn up the records of the exami nation. -

1253. vVhen the inspector, tu kes a class orally. there is no written reeord of the examination; suppose the.teacher asserted that yon had treatcd him unjustly, what check wonld there be in that case?­A check might be instituted by requiring the teacher to jot down the queHtions as the teacher gave them; he could do that an(1 the inspector could initial them.

12.";4. When yon were in South Australia did you inquire as to their method of appeal wheu the teachers were dissatisfied ?-No.

] 255. 'rhey flne teachers in South Australia when they do not come up to the standard, do they not 'I-Yes, thc teacher's promotion and the teacher's salary are determined very largely on the inspector's recommendation. .

1256. Was 1I0t the inspectors' congress that was held at the beginning of this year the first officially summoned congress that has been held for some years past ?--Yes. ' ,

]257. Do you remember where the last Officially sllmmoned cflngress was'held ?-At the Training College; Mr. Tynan was chairman.. '.

1258. It WitS !tt 1110 beginning of the year in which the Training Colle<Ye was closed ?-,-Yes. 1259. Why: wel'e not congresses officially summoned after that?-I d~ 'not know. I know tllerc

Was a disinclinaticrll to bring in any changes that would involve the spemling of' money at a time when oyery one knew that the Treasurer was unwilling to open his pnrse strings at all.

1260. WoulU it have required a special vote to have paid the inspectors 'I-Yes, when inspectors are summoned to a eonferenee, they have to come from remote parts of the colony, and there are some expenses; I understand that was one of the reasons why they were not summoned.

Frank Tate, 4t!:l A\lguBt, 1800. 64

, 1261. The money was not forthcoming for an annual confcrence during the time of retrenchment? -I do TIOt know. ' '

1262. Would you say. that the Department has made a fair attempt to carry out the recommend~Ltions of the inspectors at the las, congress ?-Yes, most of the important resolutions passed there have beeu embodied in the new programme-speaking generally, I would say there has heen movement in tho Depart-ment during the last eighteen months. •

1263. When the circular of qpproved eourses was issued, did it C0me as a snrprise to you that anything should have been done in that direetion !tIter the conferencc ?-[ fullyexpectell that we shonld have mannal traiuing, the inspectors were ,so nnanimolls as to the desirability of its Leing introduced. As soon as I saw pltragraphs ill the newspapers foreshadowing changes recommended by the Congreils I took that as authority to direct my teachers that they must begin to iut.erest themselves in the subject.

1264. Do you think the prineip~es of edneation can be graspetlas thoroughly in Victoria as the,y can in England r-I am not an Englishman! nor have I been in Englmid, so I 110 not know. I think there is a largt3 body of teachers here that the Department can reas<omably. be proud of-they haye open eyes, !tnd are always on the look-out for new ideas, and they have the power of grasping tbem. ,. 1265. And they can put them into practice without actually seeing the work iu operation in other countries ?-C~rt.aillly-I am not now speaking of the great mass, but I am speaking of a large percentftge. '

1266. YOll say there were many changes in the head-teacherships in your district-would that be a normal state of things, or was it due to some receut Act or tho climate ?-I have already said that my district, for climatic reasons, is an unattractive one. I complained at Christmas-time or t.he number of changes, and I think I tabled !t resolution at the eotigl'css that the 'Dcpartment should minimize this hahit of sending temporary relieving teachers. I was informed by' the Inspector-General that this was an abnorn;ml state of things, antI that this year he hoped that my views would be met: I know that changes have taken place iil the meth'ollof classifying schools and teflchers that w(,l'e, perhaps, forced on the Department; pOiisibly the frequeut transfel'sof teachers '"ere the result of this abnormal state of things,

126i. You suy you wotild like to see the pupil teacher system modifted in some way-would you like to sec the pupil teachers replaced by assistants in all schools ?-My position is that from au educa­tional point of vicw I do not think the pupil teacher system is a good one, and in thc countries with which I ItIl1 acquainted thc tendency is to gradually abol,ish the pupil teacher system. A vcry important CCllll­

mission sat iu England lltst ,year, and if their resolntiol1~ are carried into effect the pupil' teacher system will be fundamentally modified, ehanged almost out of recognition. I know that in order to bring auont any modiftcatioll here a ,grertt (leal of money 'will be required, but ir people wnnt good education they 'lllust pe preparell to pay for It. I know that the Dcp:trtment doef) not like the change that has been made in t,he way of substituting pupil teachers for assistants, but I understand that was done because the colony was ill a necessitolls state at the time. It is only right that any l11fHl acquainted with the defects of the pupil teRcher system should speak ont fOl'eibly. ' ,

1268. By tlw Cltair-?nan.~-Y ou do not think the education of children a good subject to commence retr'enchmellt OIl ?-Onc of the arguments foi' reducing thc Depart,ment was that it was 11 non-producing Department-that seems to mc /0 be the height' of folly. As the cry was to develope onl' resource:; it seci~cd to me that no l'esourer. would better pay for developing thfll1 the rpillds of our children. .We never Beeded to be more llberal in om eclueatlonal sy6tem than ,we did in the height of the retrenchment.

1269. By Jlir. Long.-You \VonId have simple analysis of the sentence taught ill Class III.?-Yes. 1270. And you approve of the single pass in dmwing instead of taking it as a elass suuject ?-Yes. 1271. liy .1Ir. Potts.-Do you approve of the system of examilliilg pupil teachers in the midllle of

SUlpmer instead of the middle ofwint.er ?-~I think it would be beUer both for tllQ examiners and exam~ inees if the examination weTe held in the middle of wiriter. In the TmiiJillg College wo had one set of students going out in December and Imother ill June, and I know the students untlerwent the examination far better ill winter. I think the reason for holding the'examination at 'Christmas time is that there is leisure to examine the papeI:s during the vacation. The inspectors do lIot take holidays when the schools are in vacation, lind they are employed then in examining the terichers' papers.

1272. By flir. Jenkins.-WhAt do you consider the funetion of the elementary sehool ?-To giYB edueation. Ednclttion is gi ving mental development' through tlw acquisition of instruction.

1273. How far would you givc that education ?-I do not know that I can put It limit on it; I think it will pay this country to give as free !tud as liberal an education as it can afford.

, 12i4. Is not the aim to enable the children to st.udy for themselves subsequently ?-I think there i\\ a fallacy underlying, many syllabuses tlmt I havestlldiod; tlll1t is that a child's education is complete when he leaves school. If the etlncational system of the country is well thought out and well administered, much good work may be dono in the acquiring of a few facts ill the Ilchool, It permanent interest in aiIair~ wilJ be engendered, and the child will leave the school with au opell mind. He will have the habit of getting information for bimself rather than waiting to he spoon-fed by the teacher. We need to give the knowledge that is power, rather than make chilllren animated phonographs, capable of giving back only what has'been spoken illto them.

,1275. Y (Ill say tl1at in sOITlf{places reeords of the work of the school have to be kept by the hcad teacher; is that desirable here 1-1 think it is bighly desirabJe. I understand that this is to be a matter of regulation; it was proposed at the inspectors' conference and was earried without the least opposition.

- 1276. What do you -consider the object lesson should be ?--;l should say the very last ideal in the mind of the teacher should be the imparting of facts. If a BU bjec,t is used properly it should be so used as to cultivate the senses of thc children; they should be taught to,observe and note those observations care­fully, and then they sbould proceed to form simple gellcrali~ations from those, and they should be taught to express those generalizations in fairly 'complete sentences. .

1277. That would correspond with model drllwing where they have something shown to them that they have to think about and describe?-Yes, the objeet-Iesson would be guided by exactly the 8ft/ne, principles as tile science lesson!' in the upper classes, _ ' ,

127S.W ould the clephant be a suitable subject to hu ye for ~tll object-lesson in a school in the bush?-: No; I think object~lessollB should be lessons that can be readily illustrated with examples that are easily. got by the children. For instancQ, .take a'lesson on plant life; in my district I would expcct such a lessQli

to ne ilfustrated with plants that grow either in a wild state or in the of the children; a.lesson in animal life I would expect tile teacher to illustrate from the animals i"n nf'ighboul'hood.

l2i9; Referring to Hie specialization of education in certain di'sf.ricts are there allY dangers that yon wanld guard against in tilat' specialization-is tihere of: a child having too'mueh 10call" know­ledge of a technica'l cha;ract:er?-Yes, 1 think so; it is unwise to give the edneat,i'on that we impart in the' primary schools a- too utilitarian' ljasis. While it is very desirable that a child should be-taught to observe carefully the industI-ies that go' on around him, olle of the best reasons why he should not be taught to d'o' carpentry in the sellool would be tba.t lie was going 'to he a cm'penter wfterwards. An i'deal of lite should Be to touch life at as many. poihtB as possible.

1280. You would, guard' a'ga-rnst eramping his views oy speeial instruction ?-Yes, the aim should be to give an open mind, and allow him to specialize afterwards if he liked.

I :!81. Have you tIlonght of tile desirability of including algebra in the instruction in ar-ithmetic, so that some of the simpler' lJot;ions of algebra shoul<f be imparted ?-I' think it is most unscientific to postpone the teaching of algebra to a remote period of a cnild's life, so that, he comes to it !l'8 to semet.hing unoanny, and governed oy ontirely different rules, The principles that underlie algebra: are s\mply an' extension of what is tanght ill arithmetic, and it is very- desirable that tlie' children should be introduced to reasoning in general terms:

1282 . .In' cOl1nexion'widi sewing and manual instruction in country schools; a great many of tbose country schools have only one teacher-have you thought over the question of wlil:'tlier that teacher shOUld be a lady or a male teaclier? -'- Somef.imM tili"e cbild!reu' have' been gett,ing gootl instrnction in sewing in a'scliool, but the t'eacher has beeu transferred, and, litir successor, llas been a male, so the sewing has had to be abandoned'. r have often felt that was a great pir.y" lJllt there are very greM dillicnlties in the way of limiting the appointmellt of teachers in that way,

1283. By lJfrr, Poolman.-Will the many reforms that you say the Department proposes'entail any increased~ expenditure ?-'1here' will be expenditure ill the'introduction of manual training. }. understand

,that organizers are being engaged so that there will' be expenditnre' I,here, When the work is organized, and the nigher branch'es of IllIHlUal training are taken up, there are sure to be items of expenditure in fitt,ing up reol1\s and providing apparatns. With regard to drHwing. expenditure has aJreally been incurred in previding an art instructor. The only. expenditure J! can see is in the malllml tl'aillill/l:'

1284. You think tllese aiteratio'lis will improve thecdllcatioll of tbe children r- Yes. '128.5. And they might nave been adopt,e,r long ago ?-I do lIot know Wlllll means Lite Depnrtrnent

Has of getting money from the Treasurer. 1'do lJOt think it will' COSI Il1llllh mol'O t,lmn t:1,OOO a yoar'. 1286'. If for au extra' £1,000 a year we ean get a much improved sy;;tem or (·dneation, the j'eeling

of the public that for wliat' t.ney were paying a better re~nlt conld be obtained WIl-S not ullwarranted?­r cannot say anything 'as to tEat feeling existing or not existing. l' hllve giveu 'you my opinions.

1287. When the inspectors met at the beginning of t,he year, they thought some ehalige was necessary t-Yes.

1288. It has been said that the reason' th'ese chan'ges' were not; made before was all aceouut of retrenchment ?--There was a strong disinclination on t.hc part of heads of the Departments to press for money that they knew they would uot get. I think these who have been administering the Department lately have had a very hard time in getting the results of a good den.! of the that was dOlle in the

, retrenchment period. The po~ition tIl-at shollld he made clear 10 the people of t:his colony is this-if they want a good educational ~ysteni it; cannot be got withont tihe expendilure ot' money. There is, also this view to take. The subject of manual'training' is being introci'uced gradnally lnto other countries, aud you C::I-llnot expect us to lead :ilways; We led' in ] 872 in, our free syslem, You will' notice by the report of, the Irish commission that they haye not got malllmi training t,llere yet, anti they seem, as far as I can gather, to be groping for it in' Englnud, se' perhaps it is' hardly fair to biame our Department for 1101. intro­ducing that which a few yenil's ago was in the experimental' stage.

]'289. 'Fhe @epartment itself introdueed tlie Kindergarten years ago Kindergarten is: old enougli, but the manual tmilling is comparatively new.

1290. The Depart,ment dropped the Kindergarten again ?~It was dropped--I do' not know the circumstances. I 1;:<110\V' the' feeling at the time' of the retrenchment was that every poss-ible pilring that could be'taken off, the expenditure had to be taken. We look at thing" now perhaps in a' different' way, but at that particular time even the expenditnre of sixpence was looked at as un enormous thing. There alipears to be a' very general des~re'on' the part of' the Depart.mellt to progress !lOW.

1291. By Mr. Bar'rett;-You say yours is /t'very large district, is it, praetically too large for one man to compass ?-1 think that is undoubted; it is compassed, hut it' is dOlle at very considerable expense, net monetary expense, but at t,he expense of time that It man might fairly 'reqnire for his own culture, OF for his own private affairs.

1292, Are the' districts of the other inspectors' anything: appro!1{'hing the size of yours ?-In the more settjed'!list.ricts they may' not 1'un to so many ,sqnare miles, t)lIt I think all the inspeetors are agreed, that they have far too much to do, and I think the Department is aware of that; it, is just a question of poiInds' shillings' and: pence, Iv was' protested against· when the number was' cut down by six; out' the M~inister no: doubt, gave the order, and i ti was done,

1293. That was the result of the retrenehment at the time, the Department got orrlel's from the" Treasnrer that ret'renclilnent would have to ta'ke place, and, that was the neeessary- result 1-1: do not know what was done; I only know that: the number was reduced.

1294', Bo you' think that, nnder present conditions the teaching of mnsic is satisfaetory in the State' schools ?--:-I'n my district rsry good' work is being done-l may say that' the work is' mainly, eOl1fined to singing what' are knoWll a's the test' songs, the songs the Department puts forward from time to time. in cases where the teacher has no ,ear, the work is not satisfiwLory, of course.

1295. According to the reg-Illations there' are certain subj(,cts set out as ex,tra subjects" in which· the teacliers are allowed: to give spedal instrnctioll- is that a good system; is it, fair that when there are men outside equally capable, and perhaps' more 80, of giving this instrnetion, !t head teacher, wHo is in receipt, of a fain salitry, from the State~, ~houlcl be allowed to give that extra instruction? -At, first sighti it, seems' as though, it, would be better for the ohikl to receive the special iustmction out­side, but there are many advantages in a,ehild receiving his instruction, say, in algebra, from the man who

S703. F

, Fr!lJlkTate, 4~h August, 1899. ·66

gives him instruction ill arithmeliie. If yEln are going to stop the hea,1 master from giving that Instruction I think it would be better for the child to go to It private sehool. Speaking for my own distriet, I would be very glad if many of the teachers would take up extra subjects. Tucre are no private school;; there, and very often a good opportllnity is lost. The parents are able to pay, bIit the teacher, eith€'J; because he is not competent" or from a disinclination to mId to his burden, does not tnke up the extra subjccts.

1296. lam speaking of Melbourne and the suburbs, or the large country towns ?-We have 'an opport11nity of seeing that no illjnstice is done ill this way-if a head teac\J'er wishes to do outside work he mmt get the permission of the Governor in GOllllcil, and before that is granted the inspector has to satisfy himself tbat giving the permission will not interfere with ,the livelihood ~f 'any person in the neigh­bourhood, and also that giving thaL instruction wilhlOt .impair the teacher's energies for ,doing the work for which he is paid.

1297. Is not that in many cases a mere mat,ter of form,-is not the permission easily obtained 1-That bus not been the case in my llist,rict. I felt that, it was very dcsirable that the teacher in one town shouhll)e allowed to I!ive extra instruction, but although I rccZlmmellded it, the Department refused permission, because there \\'as a person advertising to do' similar work in the 'town. .

. 1298. Take the case of a scholar in tl,e 6th class who wishes to train up specially for work in the Department, lllay there llotbe It desire OIl thc part of the head tcueller to favour 'such a scholar, who takes thc extra subjects ?--l do not t,hink any cases ha\-e como lllJ(lcr my lloti<~e ,,-here a child received any favour because he lemned ext,ra subjects. .

1299. I~ there uniformit.y ill the system of teaehirlg writing throughout t,he wllOle of the schools? ·-The Department has endeavoured during the last three or fonr years to have It nniform system through the wh'ole colony; they lla,ve iss ned their own copy-books, !nul have also issued orders that those copy-books must be used.

1300. Are the copy-bouks uniform in yom distriet?- Yes. 1301. Are there not plll.ces ontside your district where they are not uniforni ?-Jf so, it is against

thc regulatiQn of the Dppartmen t. I do not know what Ihe general practice of the inspectors is, but although I do not care for the books iselled by the Dopal'tmeIl t, 1 am (ioing my best to carry out the wishes of the Depmtmcnt loyally.

1302. Do YOIl think it is possihle, where It school wi t.\r rur attendanee of 1,000 has been amalgamated with another with ttn attelldaneo of 300 or 400, for the head teacher to do his work properly ?---'The best answer I c~n give to that is to say that I do not think any school should run over 700 or 800 .. 1 know the tendeney lrasbeen to make the ~('hools grallllally larger and· larger, but there are very grave objectiolls to it, and if there are objectiolls to a man t,rying to supervisc 1,400 children rmd0l' one roof, the ol;jeetions are groater still when the children are 11l1(ler t,,'o roofs, ami there is II, jOllflley to make between the two pJaces. The policy of al1lalgamtttioll, howevel', was forced on the Department for fillancial reasons. I have none of them in my, distriet.; it is a distriC.t of smnU schools.

Henry Finch Rix, B.A., swam 1111,1 cxamincd.

1303. By the Chainnan.-What are you ?-lllspector of Schools in the Beechworth district. 1304. What has been YOllr experience in thc Depnrtment ?-I lmvo been 32 years altogether as

schoolmaster and inspector. 1 cam~ to the Beechwortlt district ill 1884, and 1 have been there ever since, with the exception of 21 months, when r was in charge of tire Woodend district ..

1305. Does tbe size of your district militate again;;t, proper educational work ?-Most decidedly; a man cannot get through the amollnt of work allotted to bim so as to do justice to eihwation. To attempt to do it means such 11 constant strain, that the work is necessarily nltl"f()"'ed. There are 132 schools in my district, ineluding a good many of It fair size-third and fonrLI; elass schools. The schools are a good deal larger on the average than those in Mr. Tate's district. I h:tve three third class sehoob, which have an average attendance of from 350 t,o 500.

1306. Yon have to make two visits a year to eaeh school ?-Yos, if possible, but it has not been possihle for some years past; it has not bemr possible to do t,he work thoroughly, and I have said so in some of my reports.

1307. Do YOll consider that your reports, aIHI the inspector,,' reports generally, are sympathetically received and treatml by the Department ?-Certain .portions I have no dOlibt are, hut a man's opinions may differ from those of the Departmellt.

1308. Are your crif.icisms on the system, aIllI suggest,ed reforms, paid at,tention to?-"Ve get no notification of what, attitude the Department takes. ,

1309. Do you see any evidence from the action of the Department that the reports have had any effect ?-Hardly any effect eonld take plnee except throngh a confeJ;ence of the inspectors, and those conf~rences were practically suspended for six years. .

-1310. When a conference is held, is there any guarantee Hrat the opinion of the conference will be earried ont, or is it merely t,he opinion of the five scnior men in Melbonrnc that is given effect to ?-They are the advisory board. '

1311. And they may prevent the opinion of the conference of inspeetorB being carried out ?-TIrey, with the head of the Departmcnt, have the power to veto lmy decision.

1312. Mr. Tate has expressed the opinion that there is llO eirculation of ideas as to teaching, to make the systeJIl progressive, between the Departmeilt all(l the inspeetors on I,lie one hand, anu the teachers on the other; do you agree with t.hat ?-That ha;> certainly been the case unring tha six years that we huve had no conference. .

1313. In order to vitalize the Department can you suggest a better 'system of inviting snggestions than exists now ?-I think it would be a good thing to adopt the reeommerrdatioll of the Royal Commission of 1884, that suggestions and recommendations :upon educational maHers should bc asked.fol' from the Teachers' Union; that they shollld be referred to the conference of inspectors, find by them considered as to whether they were practicable or not; that is, whether they wquld work in with the existing system.

Henry .f, lUx, 4th Augu~t. ~800,

1314:, 'rhe reac~ers' Uulou practically meaus the hefltl teachers finu the assistant, teachers ?-Yes; there are branch nnions all over the countrv.

1315. Are they all affiliated to the 'i'enchers' Union 'f-Most of them, 1316. Do you think the absence of such communication tends to sterilize the 1V0rk of teachers,

destroy their zenl, an,l impair their origiuality?-The teHchers nre doing tile work, and they should have the first ~ay as 10 wheUler changes are desirable, or, at any rate, their opinion shonld be asked for.

13/7. It never is asked for? -It. hns ueen flsked for-on vVritillg, for instance, there was a committee of inspectors and te1tchqrs some i'i x years ago or mort!.

_ 1318. Was that a stamling committee of teachen;, or n specially summoned committee for the one "occasion ?-It met rrom time to time;drawing lip a new departmelltal series of copy-books.

1319. Would a committee of that 80rt, be a good thing to have permanently ?-No; they should make their recommendation from their opillion, Dud that recommendation should come to the inspectors' conference; each 1'11Ould con~itler the matter 8eparately.

1320. The teachers are a very imporll'I1t purt of tbe scheme, and they shonld beeucourageu to take the initiative in making suggestions ?-Ye~, hilt we ('an take the initiative too,

1321. But they should be encouraged La make suggestions periodically ?-Yes, I think so. 1322. Whnt do you thiuk of the result system; can you bave ally efficient system,of cdncatioll at

all, especially primary education, inclnding m!1llllal training, wlwre YOII lmve the resnlt system ?-There are inherent defects in the result system, and they are opposed to the introduction of reforms, and the remodelling of the clllTiculllm ; suhjects that require class examillat.ioll are difficult of introduetion. 'The result system is ba<ed on the individnal test, and that cannot ue applied t.o such subjects as manual training and Kindergarten teaching.

1323. Is it a good test for anything ?-Without the class test I say it is only half a test. The class test 'enables the inspector to get at the minds of the children, and see how the teacher's mind has got at the children's minds, He feels the pulse of the teaching in that way as he cannot do with a written examination.

1324. And the written examinat.ion is chiefly rendered necessary by the result system ?-I would have a written examination in part nncler any system. Writing makes the exact mind, and, jf children are not trained to put on pnper certain memorizable facts, they will have a loose idea of things; but the one shonld be superadded to the other.

, 1325. A written examination does not necessitate tho result system in your mind ?-No ; although tbe result system necessitlltes the written cxamillalion.

1326. You would have a class examination as part of an efficient 8Y8tem of examination and inspection ?-Yes, but with t,he amonnt of work we have to do now it is impracticable to do both.

1327. You cOllsider YOllr districts are. too large, and there are. too few of you to do the work ?--­I do.

1328. Do yon consider the Eresent reduced nnmber of distrll!ts absolutely impairs the efficiency of any system of tuition ?-Yes, and impair" the health of some of the inspectors. Some have been at the point of bI:eaking down. I myself was in the hands'of the tioct,UI' for neurasthenia eighteen months ago.

1329. r suppo~e you are pl'l1ctically always travelling ?-From tho enu of Jannary until the thinl week in December, except Easter week, or if I take my leave during the year, that is It tweak, but I do not always take it. .

, 1330. Inspection is a very important part of dIe system ?-Yes, an army badly officered meets with defeat generally.

13:n. You do not consider that nt present, the Department is marching Oil successfully, with the reduetion of the staff ?-The reduction wus forced on the staff.

1332. In order to remedy tbese evils w hat would yon snggest-.. wonld you restore the number of inspectors to the original unmber ?-I can see uo other wo.y to compass it; even then, in former times we were working nnder the result system, and we had to go at a greater pace than they go in other countries, beeause our work was of t.lmt narrow kin.1 that made rapid pace possible, ,bnt jntelligent examinat,ion difficult. .

1333. Then the introdnction of the modern system of testing school work would involve a C011-siderable addition to the inspectoral sf·aff ?-It should at least be brought IIp to its old strength as a beginning. .

1334. Would not the abolition of the result system allow of a eorresponding reduction in the office \york ?-It would certainly Cllt dOW1~ It large part or the clerical work.

1335. There is now It lot of recording of mechanicnl operations eonsequent on the result system ?­There will have to be examinatiol)s alld records kept ill uny system under wbich the Department appoints and promotes eyery teacher. It is _different ill 1 he ohl coulltry, nnd that difference must be kept in view. Here the Department makes the, appointments and promotions; in England teachers are appoillted locally. Here the Department must kuow the merits of e\'ery mnll, if it wishes 10 promote him according to ability,

• 1336. The Department has nopo\\'Cf to -Pl'Omote for general ll:ptitllde ?-'So, ouly by the general classification scheme, which [ regard as a failure from its inccptioll_

1337. ,"Vas that system introduced from motives' of economy only, or to do away with patronage? -It was, primarily, I think, to make political patronage impossible; and, scconllly, to pl'omote by merit, but its secoud intelltion has not been fulfilled'.

1338. How can a general system of classification, which works in aecordance with general principles ot length of service, involve any promotion by merit at ul! ?-I hold that the Department has too little power to place the beot men in the best places, the mOBt responsible posts.

1339. Yon say your inspectoral staff is undermanned and overworked ?-I do. 134Q. And that is the result of certain political changes ?-Yes.

. 134:1. In your judgment would those changes have the same efl'eet upon the teaching staff1-Ill 1\ different way. vVhen the retrenchment began one thing done WIlS to turn ont oE the service many of the most nb1e and expericnced teachers, and accompanying that change the proportion of' apprenticed teachers

,was inereased. Both tlioBe elmnges made for weakening the strength of the teaching power, In Victoria a school with an allot·ment from 50 to 75 has one apprenticed teacher to one el~ssified teacher; from 400 to

],' 2

6'8

4:50 two apprenticed· teachers to one classified. tea.cher; fr.om l:,lm) to 1,150 threc l~pprentieed teacl1ers to one classified teacher; f!'Om 1,450 to 1,500 fOUl' appreu ticed teachers to one cI1l'~sif.ie(1' tendler. In Englandl they uever have morc thau two nppreaticed teachel'~ to one classified teacher ill' Sd100ls wil,h all' attend-

. flnce of more than 200, ltlld the larger. the school' t,he ress the ratio; for everv additional a~sist,ant they m~y have, one more lLpprentieeli" teacher. An apprellticed teacher. means· a lmllil teacher Or a monitor'; 1'.Ilei cll18sifiod teachers are those wilt) al'e on the cl[Lssified·list.. Thai, shows that in Enghtnd. they lutve·tl snmUel' propor.tion of immatu·re I·eachers than we luive here-hepe the l'I1tiO, inereases as, t,he,scho.ol gets larger, Ihere the ratio diminishes. .

'11342. WheFe, there· j'B ll~ed, for grenter organization tl\el'e i's less err,ecti:vEl lIlenns of organization ?- '" Where the classes are IHl:gesL the strnill' on· pupil! teacliel'sis lieaviest--in· tbese large classes tlie strain. is . ~nough to break down Ihe, nerve· or some of tliose gil'l teaehel's. • ,

. 1343'. That mefillS that the strain· is also' greater Oil the' head tie'acber? -There is very often, ,;el'Y' little class tel1ehing done by the heall teaehe!'.

1344, Does the size of t,he dasses mUi1,ate· agt1inst re~ol'm '/ -Uud'oilbted:ly ; elasses in the· Imnds of jUlliol' teachers should not be excessively large--it is impossible, for diem to. l,)1'opeldy pl'eparc1ihernsel,ves for their profession; the, strain of I,caching t.akes, a}:1 t.he energy ou·t of'tlielIl'. I t,hillk it is onlyf.)'L'i:r to Ihe Depal'tll1ent to say, with regar.d! to these' Barr-owings that, I have l·eferl'ed; j·o, tihat, 8i,x ,Years ago tliel:e was a ,pot)Il,lar ontcl'Y aga.inst tho Department for being too progressive. it was thohght that we ha,dt exceeded: the OI:iginalr ilHellcions of ~he Act, thM. edncatioll should bo red'liced to t.!'le tHree· H/s, amt that Ihe system should he. reSfi!:i'(dedi tel the· indigent POOl', and t.here was, a clamour tn that off3Ct. Tho, ou·tcry was, fm"Uy loud, tnoll'gh the' IHlmbel' making' it, 11my not have, been very large. 'Ehe eHeet was not merely upon' the inspeotoral staff. but, also npon the office staff; they have been undermanned and overwol;ked·,and: mOll< w.ho; are ovcl'workerji have, minds lioo jaded to do much prog'l'essi ve wode

. 1346. ~"Vlh.t l~l;terat.i()lls· wodd yon make in t'he pupil]: teacher system, do you think i-t, d·esl·rable· to' adopftno·English pI'oportiou ?'--ft is mainly n, qnest,ion of cost,. '

1346. 1~eavillg Mmt out, what is your opinion ?-1 t.hillk we should have more assistants. ·:.un.l: reS8· pl.l'pi'~ teaehel's' .

. ' t347: 'J!'hat wonld' in;volve l'eV01!si'lIg: the· retrenchment fLnd classificati':J11 policy it would men'n-lUI alterati'ori in' che,.stnffi.ng of sellools, IlnG fLII assist:mt cail' tench, 1\ Im:ger number of children thttll' 11 pupili teacher,.so tllO cost of the reform is not so grefLt a~ it appears on the surface, •

1134'8. ~~ll increllse' j;n' the number' of pnpil teachers is It false' economy ?-Beyond' a eertAin point it is.

1349,. YOll' anl acquninted with the former: efforrs tha.,t were made to intr-odnce Kindel'gal'ten work? -Yes.

1350~ IDa you· appl:ovc+ Of Ihe intl'odnction 'of Kinder'gal'ten pri'nci-ples in· schools ?-Most emphati­cally I do. Miss Shineff, oDe of thc le:tdill),!; exponenl!i in Englmlll, sllid t.he prineipal canse of tho failure' of ·tIt.e· KilHlergarten in, Enghmd was the· neglect, of:' I·he pl'incitlles, 'f81bcliel's got familial' with the'pFaetieal part befhr(;· !.liey 1.[(!(lel'q'oo:J t.he principles, ~o YOll g·ot n shell' wj.t,h, no k~'i'Ilel insid·e. It is, m07lt e~seDtial! ~hat.,. before· allY one is·l1I!owed· 10 take, ebarge of a'll illff!ll/ school, she RI.all show pl'Ofjcir~ncY' hl' ltno,,,led:g.3' of the principles. The r~metieal PIli]'t withom the' knowled\:G of. prin6ples is, Mio lioriy without the' soul.

136.1. YPIl. appl'ovD of't·he proposal' to an, expert ol'ganizer 10 infuse t.1108e princi'ples, ill·tO· the statf'?-The pl'inciples C~lIl he lertrnet! bY.8t.n<1y; prillc'l I nsC) of nil organizer would be, to: show how those prineiples. should be appli'erl; trhel'efore· !lhecst'lidy ()f principl'es ~houi& begin- at onc , if- I,he', bOOKS are l1t hand.

1352'. Would: the, inspectors themselves. proll'l by moeting the organizers·? -.:. We lilways. profit by meetiug a fellow educationalist.

1353, 'lOll think KiiHlergarten pl,illeiples shonltr permeate, the whole of the infant teaching ?-Yes. 1'354. What uri; yOIl1! .. jews as· 1o, infant mislresses 'I--In, 1889 I rccommended' that no'ne sliou,ld: be,

appointed. except those UtaL showed! speeiaJ H,'pt,itml'e,. beeause it; is not every teacher who· can· bocome an' eilieicnf iufnnt· Ini,,~re8s; j;he lower I,he clas~ t"w, gre"ter t.he, skill reqnired., just as thl" higher the class' ,·he greater the knowlodge req'iired. ,

1355. Do YOIl think it necessary tliat the tRaelier ill charge oJ the infiltlt class, should, be' under the head teachCl' of the school 1'-1 think it i~ necessary for vhe sake of organization !liml discipline that the head' teacher should Imve the chief voice in all mntt.ers. .

1356,. Have. YOll, any i'd,'a wh:tt wonld Le tbe cost, of introducing, iiud, lUfVintaining tIle Kind'ergart,en avateni ?-Verv little. . . • 1·357. Wha~ are Y0ul: views as· 10, dIe desil'wbiHly of Imving a. tr-ailliug col.lege, ~ind: the necessity of

tfltiniug. teachers· to· carny- ont a live 'e'l'ueatiOlla.1 system ?-Pnpil. lel.chers here have tile ba.ldestof training,. All'progressive c()untries, reeognise tlie· 11ecessit.y of training teachers; the Illore, progressive' the, more· training,. In Scotland, i·ll J:897"8. i here 11'01'0 9;!:l23 f.Emchers eiuployed!. Every year 590 new teaellers arec reqllireu\ and· of that number 650, OJ' 93: per cent., ha.ve been sl·udell!'s in training eolleges; we haye no, percentage at present. .'

1358. SeotiundJ is, a' courHry' where, they have 'ta.ken, some inlerest ill edllcaticm for some time,?~For a very long time,

1:359: Has there ever beeua pericllV in Scotland wIlen, they wished: to confine e.tnealioll to,the three R's,?'-N.o, t.]1() eOllntry dominie there: hail, nsually jwepnredi I'llS brigJ1t ooys fop t,he Unkersit,y fl'om, time immemoriaL .

1360:00e8 not tlm!' ltppty to the.slnlllles-t villages ?-80 J am told; bY!l.u eduented Scotcliman who wrote, IlIe, ll" lel;/:Cl: t.he othm: day, HHli: who was l'lrought lip under the systelll' himself: The' Seotell percelltnge of teachers wlio.are tra,ined· is not ti,e hwgest ; ill Gernlu!lY it is, 100'per cenl.: they' wm: not' allow tL person to leach who hn,;, not- been'"trninctl'.

. 1361. In your opinion that ~ho:lVs' the nece,,;iiity of· tliorongh. and nniversnl: training of. teachers here? - Yes, I \y(mJci'like to emphasize \Vltat- .Jilr: 'rale ,:aid; every enconragemeut sliouhJ( oootferetl- to' students to become tmined teacher.s, bol.h by not lett,ing them sl1ffer in seniorilY', awl 'by gi dng 1'liel1l some' Hraet·ical' ad I'ltntage n8, the reSH tt of theil" gerting: theil: t.raining eCl,tifjC:1f;e; let t,liem· go olle s tnge' higher than' tiiose, who will DotdellY themsel.ves. amI: go ild()\" study; ill; t,hc' past they have, beeu pll'llisl\ed,ror their ontl·l'­prifc. I think Kindergarten shonlU' be· made a speeiaJifeatlll:e' of, futnre tl'ainiilg. .Ii arso l'l'iini{c that (,lie'

69 Henryl:'..~~~ 4th August, llM/·

p.osition of Principal of the Training College should !lot be t.be stepping stone to other positions;. a mall should feel a life interest ill his work if he is to get t,).le best work dono. In time past men have tHken the position in order to score Iileil"seniority, and get the noxt position llS Boon fiS it was available. A man shoulJ feel that t.his is goillg ·to be bis life work if J1C is to make thc besL possible me of his time.

1362. Having this lIew depal'tlll'e in view shonld 110t tile Training College include in its staff experts in hand arid .eye trainiNg ?-Those tlJiI t cmne here to give sp('cial lessons would holJ classes there --they wouJd 110t he on the rrgll'1ar staff, I pro"ul1le.

1363. Have )'OU cOllsiJered the subjeci. of I,alltl anrl eye.and lllanuallraining ?-I have rcad ahout. it, but I havc no pract.ica.l knowledge. I think it vcry lle;;irable to give an all round edueat·ion-that the physical facultieR shoulJ be .traiued as wcll as t.he mcntal olles.

l364. Have you considered whether it should La introlluceLl llere, and if 80 at what sacrifice of existing subjects, or of a portion of t,he time gi yell to thelll ?-The amount of time required is not so great as to make very much d·istmbance in the programme; it is only two 110nrs a week, and that can be foulld without any great Blaughter.

13(5. Is ·that about the'time gi 'fen to it ill .England ?-I tbink we would !lot. carc to give more t·han two hours to it at iirst--what it would develop into I cannot say. '.

1366. Are your views in aeeol'dance with Mr. Tate's el'idence generally 1-1 do not believe 1ll

optional subjects. . . 1367. If you IHtve to have two hours for manual training it is obvious tbere must be some reduction

ill other suhjects ?-I am in accord with Mr. Tats that we can cut out a lot of this dissection oflanguage ; I ,should like to see more con;;trnctive work in langnage-composition.

1368. Speaking generally yon art! sati8fied that the two hours can be got ?-Y es ; we can cut down geography., nnll out of t·hat I think we can save neady half the time.

1369. What. is yonr opinion of optional subjects ?-In tbe old country, where they have optional subjects, I find that the schools take the th:l'ec H.'s amI one or two subjects in addi(.ion, and I think Ihat does. D9t complete the circle of edueatioll ; I do not believe in leaving gapsin.the round of subjects that have always been considered a necessary part of geneml education. That is a matter in which I would go direct to the teachers and :What do you recommend ~"

• 1370. That means in the ordinary curriculnm the school tirce-table would vary as to the actual subjects taught ?-No, I ,would have all alike, but I would ask theUnioll to formulate its ideas as to where work could be lessened. '

1a71. Yon would have 110 optional 81lhjects at all ?-Only in the manual oceupations; one man would ha~e one predilection and another anot.her; there I \vould have option, but in the ordinary circle I would have no gaps. I think annual confercnces of inspeetors are necessary to progres£ ; lhey are to th\\ working of the Department what the Legislativ8 Assembly is 1.0 the Government of the country. Se'veral of the most. progressive inspectors are ill the conntry, and if they huve no opportunity of meeting there is a 10SB to education.

1372. Have YOll consider8d tbe question of teaching wood WOl k ?--I have read a little about the slojJ, but I have no practical knowledge; I prefer it to melal work; metal work would be dirty.

1373. Is it pmct.icable to ini;rodllce wooJ work ill all the schools ?-It would bave to be introduced tentatively, and very gx:aJually. If we had the expert here to-day it woulJ not be to-morlow that all tbe teachers could take it up ; IlHtny might prove unfit; it would require carefnl nnd gradual introductiou ..

1374. Is there anyone h0re who could advise as to the fitting np of workshops, and providing .the tools and materials required ?-1 thillk thl1t had better be left until the expert. come~. I do not thillk that any harm would be done,· hut rather good, by allowing I1l1y teachers who havfl special aptitude in any of the catalogued occupations to try t.heil' hand in the meantime, uud whell the expert ,)omes we will try to adapt our system to bis, so as to mnke the one iit the other. I have formulated an alternative system for the result system. The .spirit of it is to abolish the fiuct.uations of pa.yment accordiug to percentages year by yenr. There flre ineremcnts from the bot.tom to the top or a dass. Teacbers wbo do gOOl] average work for, say, three years should get regnlnr increments, and then t.heyare free to teach broadly, provided they have reached that standard. 'Tencher6 WllO (10 but fairly might, have their il1Cremellts given to them every second year, alJd those whooe work approaches the unsatisfactory state might bave their increments withheld. If any leacher continued to do ul1satisfaetory "'ork yellr by year, let him go (lowu in salary as steadily as a good teacher goes up.

]375. Is it necessary to keep teachers in the Depflrtlllent whose work is unsatisfactory?-There are laggards who require the spur as well as enthusiasts who push to the top. In 1886-7 there was prac­tically no payment by result s, auti tlJe teachers in my district worked as well as they did before, or have doue since, lfl'. Main and :Mr. Topp went to New South Wales ami Sonth Allstralia, and they say the teachers there wori, as hard ati tlley do here though there is 1I0 paymen t, resnlts.

137G. Is not the conclusion the English experts have come to ; we followed t,hem ill: establishi.ng payment. by results, and I think we will follow them in abolishing it. It would, bowever, be nnsafe to aholioh 111lyment by results unless the Department ha~ pnwcr to place teachers by merit: The. present wooden system of classificllt.ion \Vat' ~ondemued emphatically uy DI', Dale, of Birmingba!)1, in his book-Impressions A·u ... ~trali([ He saill our system of making promotiollS, howen)r suitable for clerks in Government offices, was entirely mischievo1ls when applied to 1.he appointment of teachers.

1077. You think that in order to carry out the new work well there should be an altenl.tion in the proportion of pupil t.enchers to as~istallts, aad ill the size of the classes ?-In that respect, we might follow the Eng1.ish practice. There .lhe hcad teacher hali to toad up to 50 pupils, each additional certificated teacher up to 60, eaeh assiiltant teacher 45, and e:teh pl1piJ. teacher 30. The last elassification of teachen; shows Ii.

strange disproportion hctween tbe posi tions f,,1' teachers alJd the teachcrs for those positionrJ in the different c1asscs. III the roll for 189i ill tile fst class there wcre 41 poSit;ioU6, and there were 37 teachers; in the 2nd class, 70 positions and 60 teachers; ill the 3nl class, 135 .positi.OIl6 !l.ud 133 teachers; ill the 4th class, 260 positions lwd 326 teachers; in the 5t h clnss, 468 positions and 1,147 tmwhers ; in tho 6th class, 968 positions and 354 teacherH; in the 7th dass, 480 positions and 12() classified ten:chcrs, and about 150 lllldassified teachers; ill t.he 8th class, 287 pnsit;ions und 102 teachers, making [t total of 2,659 positions, and 2,435 te:whers. These figures meR]) thnt .owing to the regrading of the schools there is all immense nnmber of ttnchers higher than the schools ill which they are, and tbat mean;; It I,lock for many years 10 come in the promotions.

Henry .F. Rix, 4th August, 1899. 70

]378. Does it not also meMl!HI eveU1,md reduction in IIUlnbers ?-No, not ill numbers, the positions will remain the same; for instance, the 1,147 teachers in tho 5th c!as~for Ihe ·182 positions will have to be worked off before the 6th class teachers can get promotion, and the outlook is yery dismal. The caUse of the failure of the clas.,ification snheme Las becn tlmt. thero have been successivo blocks to legitimate promotion from the first to the present time. Tho initial block was that toa<:hers were dassified according to tho attondallce of tho schools in which thoy were. As soon as that was alluoI1llc~d, all 1 he schools wcnt up to high:'water mark in attendance, but aftel' the dassifieatioll was secured j,he attelld:mce went, down, leaving mauy teaehers classified above their Bchools ; nli t,hese men had to be put itltO vncancies before there could be one merit promotion. Theil the 64th section of tho 1883 Public Service Act formed another block. Profes~or Pearson was s.troll;!ly in flivo1ll' of abolishing it, bUL thc opposition of those who expected to profit by it was too strong. In my report for 1891 I went flllly illt.o that 11111.tt.er. By that 64th clause Ii teacher, good, bad, or indifIcrent, who flilshed his school, or whose school wellt np jllst above the horder line between oue class and another, was rnised in classiticat.ion,- often over the hends of hl1ndreds of more deserving tenehers. III 1890 that clanse was challged, Hnd from that time to this only teachers in the 1st flub~class may rise ill classification with their schools, bllt it is .nnjust still. A man lit the bOltom of the 1st sub-class rnny han~ his school go lip from 70 to 80 in lLLteIlllance, amI he is lifted over the heads of many who are nbove him, simply hecanse, percbauee, two more families llltl'e corne to the neighbourhood.

1379. That wOllld be met by giving the Department the power YOll recommend to advance teachers. by merits ?-Ye~, hut the power to promote by merit will he defeated by tlmt clllllse if it is allowed to rlilmain. The third is the regrading block; ill 1895 the schools were reclassified, and that left hundreds of teaehers classified above their schools. The teaebers say it will be tell or twenty years before they can get promotion. In eonllexion wiLli that I may you these figul"Cs-a school that rises from 70 to 80 lifts its teacher into a higher class, bUL' if tbe samc school goes from 80 to ] 90 an incrensc of eleven times as much, there is 110 corresponding rise. When a school goes from 190 to 200 tile teacher is raised in classi­ncation, bllt there'is no eorresponding rise if that scilool goes from 200 t.o 190. In the larger schools again an increase of tell may be of more value than lin illcrt'ase of 700, raisin)! It school frolll ~OO to 1,.500, so the assumed merit of havillg the tlttelldanee increased is rewarJed in olle ca~c and not in allother, and other men who desene promotion do not get it.

1380 . .By J)r, MacFarlolld,-In },olll"opilJioll is tbe seience teaehiug given Itt present in'thc s,chools satisfactory ?-No, it is not,. I think t.he programme is lIusatisfaetory to begin with. Seience is systematized knowledgc, anJ the programme should illdictlte progl'es~ive work, which it does not (Io-there is no con­flequential order in Lhe prO;,m1Illme.

1381. As taught lIOW it is merely a certain amollnt of informntioll ItS to scientific . facts, rather than seientific instnlCtioll ?-Some teachers make t'xperiments, and get the children to urnw \uferences from the facts seen, but, there is far too much mechanical tenching, and thaI, 1 takc to Le caused by tlie necessarily mechanieal examination.

1382. That is 11 consequence of the system of payment by resnlts lind 0111' baving more to do than we can do jnstice to.

1383. Have jou allY suggestions or reeoillmemlations you would like to make in the direction of improving that Iltate of affairs ?-I think a sy 113 bus should be elra \Vn up, giving <let.ailcd instructions to teachers. The tcachers would welcome it ;. tlICY are all eager to do the best they can for the children, and if they knew Oil what lines to go, and if the better work werc rewarded, wluLt is wanted could be got. •

1384. The better work could ollly be r0wurued by making a ehange in t,he system of payment by results That is my opinion; I wonlu Jil1eraJize the wholc systerll; if a luan, after getting good average work ill his school, were fi'ee to improve his methotls, the wbole system would become more elastie.

13~5. W (luid you be in fayour of increasing the time given to science teaching ?-N 0, 1 think fin hour is all we can spare, taking all the other subjects into consideration.

1386, Is an hour a week given to it llOW ?-Two' half-hours. 1387. It comes in as p!tl't of the genercilles80ns ?-Yes, one hour is given to gonerallessolls, which

includes elementary s ~ience. -1388. Elementaryscienco does 1I0t receive the whole of that time ?-No ; 1 do not believe in haying

physical geography taught then; I thir'], it should be taught· in'its propel' placc ns' geography. I notice that in Scotlanu the subject)8 not culled elementary scienee bllt experimental science, allt! that is the

'direction in which we should go. The object is not to give the ohildren fact;s, but; to teach them, how to generalize, ami get. general laws from fllcts i:>hserveli. It is to induce the mental habit.

1389. Are you of opiniou that that could be (iOlle without ally scrion~ expenditure on the part of the Department?-.:\o more expenditnre than there has beeil in t.hc past j paying pal't of the eost of the apparatus; it is simply the method of teacloillg ami twining the tea(;hers .

. ' 1390. JJy the Chairman.-Have YOll allY thing further to suggest ?-I tloink the Department should issne circulars of information, especially on the Hew subject", following Ihe example of the English Depart­ment. There are most excellent circulars issued by the English Department on infant school leaching, and the malJual oc·cnpatioIlS of children.

1391. .By 111'1". Polfs.-Your district is an important agricultural district ?-Yes. 1392. Have yo~ allY idea about the adoption of a system of giviug popular lectures on rural topics

in the schools in yOll!' dislrict, sllch, for example, as lecture,s on the elementary principles of agriculture?­] have two teaehers ill my dist.riet giving lessons on dairying.

1393. Do you tin~ that that is having a goat! effecL ?-1 have eXltrnillell only olle of the schools, and my kllowledge of thc subjeet is not great, but I think thc effect is good. ._

1394 You believe in elem(mtary instrnetion in the simple faets or agricultln'e to childrcn in the form of simple lectures ?-NOL t.o the exClusion of scicnce.

1395. Do YOIl t.hink slIch inst,ruetion eould bo introduced into the St:tte sohools with the view of making the surroundings of the children popula,r ?-Givillg him all intclligent knowleclge of the local iudustry? '

1396. Anll giving him an interest ill his local surroundings ?-YeH. 1397. So has to lUl,ve thc moral effect of itiduoillf?" him to stu,y Oil the land?-Y es; there is, how-

ever, such 11 thing as overdoing it, I thitlk, '

. Henry};', Rix, 4th AUj,"Ust, 1899.

1398. There is a pamgraph in the report of the French Commission which states :~" After COll­

sidcringpropositions to frame for all the onlillary primary schools Il. general syllabns, like that just quoted for those immediately highcr ill grade, tho Commission recommended that the instruction to be given to

. these younger children should llot be tabulaied and stereotyped ill any regular code of theoretical teaching. They preferred to see the teaehiug in the elementary schools made essentially practical, aud as simple as possible, the attelltion of ihe children being Itl ways drawn to what '''IlS going on arollnd them ill the country, and their int,erest excited ill a b6fitting their age, only 6u~h elementm')' notions being prcssed on them as might immediately COllcern the' aefllal tillage operations wbich they witnessed day by day. It is left, therefore, to the intelligellce of individual tp9.chers· to make their own programme for the familiar lessons to be gi veil, Rubject mlly to such control as ths Departmental professors might be able to exercise over the teaching staff of the country schools." Do yon approve of that idea ?-Provided the teacher has some pract.ical knowledge.

J 399. III dealing with that sll~iect it, would be; absolu!E:ly necessary, ill yom opinioll, Ihat the teaeher should have some practical tnition ?~l think it wOll!d be desirable.

1400. You would ouly give lectures 0[' thnt. class to suit the immediate snrroulltlings of the State Bchool in which the children were t.aught ?-Y Co. '

] 401. If.it were a dairying district, )'.011 wOld!l appro"e of lectures being giv.ell to ehildrell who were engaged in dairying on the prineipll's of dnirying ?--Yes.

1402. In other parts of yonI' district they grow tobacco and hops ?-The children have very' little to do with that.' .

. 1403. You wonld approve of popnlnrleetures heing given to children, with the view of theidearning elementMY facts in eonncxion with Iheir surroundings, and the tencher showing his interest in the matter by taking the children to a model farm, a model dairy, or a model poultry honse ?-Yes. One of the teachers in my distl'ict is permittell to t,ake the 0hildren for four days in the ye~tr to the nearest ua.iry or ereamery. 1 think it is desil'aLle that the cbildrell should learn enough to make them interested; but I confesR I do not kllow encugh about. it to know whethcr it would not push ont somcthing that is more valuable;

1404. Yon know that popular lecture,; of that kilHI have been It great ~uceess in Gerlllauy, .France, and Switzerland, and arc now bei!lg introduced into thc Stutes and England·--it is quite feasible to intro­duce them here?- Yes.

1405. To show thc importance of a t,eachcr having a thorough knowledge of a subject Lefore he aspires to tC:lch it, I may mention that tt teacher iu your district has issued a series of lessons ill thc School­master-,.and if the children are taught thosc lessons it will take the cxpert:> of the Agricultural Department a loug time to knock the errors ont of their heads ~there are many seriolls errors based on obsolete tcxt­books, alH! books behind the times ?-Thc Departt l1eut <lid not point out those things to hilll.

1406. The Department did 1I0t even revise the lessons, they are so fll!! of errors ?-The Depart­ment did not tell him so. They should have let him know he was on the wrong track, but they gave him the cold shollider-I thillk Ihey Itrc very much (0 blum".

1407 .. The lessolls appeared without 1I0y official sanction ?-I tllOUght otherwise; but they should have let. him kilO'" he wa, 011 the wrollg traek-his object wa~ good.

1408. If we are going to introduce special subjeets into the State scl:iools, the teachers themselycs must hav:e a perfect knowledge of thc subject before they commence to teach it ?-Perfeet i's rather a large order. Thi,; is all extraet from a letter written by the other teacher :-" Having spellt the days of my boyhood on a farm, and having had many opport.ullities of becoming :tequainted with the ideas and methods of Olll' flLrming people, I am convinced that i:ist.l'llction in dairying and otber brancbeil of agricultural scienee is a cl'ying neeessity." That is simply his opiuion.

1409. Should these leet.nres be int,rodueed, one of the stnmblillg blocks iu the way of their popularity, or of their bcing usefully applied, would l)c t.he system of payment loy results ?-That is in /.he way of all reform, I think.

1410. Yon recognise the fact that the curriculnm is o,-erladen now in conseqnence of that system? -I think tl,ere ici :t gooll deal of nliSCOIlCt3plion Oil that point. In J 893, Mr. Osbaldest.olle, the president of the Teachers' U uion, said-" I am con l'inced that the teaeher8, if allowed a voice in the matter, will never conscnt to such a step being' taken as the curtailment of the programme of instruction."

1411. We propose lIOI" to nJd to the curriculum Lut YOIl said it was overloaded ill con-sequencc of the system of payment by resul1s-~I uo not think it was overloaded ill conseqllence of that at all.

1412. The teaehers complnill that in consequence of so much time being demted to snbjects miller the regime of paynlent by results not sufficient time is. allowed for the general lessons ?-No, there wonld have to be a re-arrttllgcment of the work. . ,

1413: If we add hand and eye t.raining', Kindergarten, ulld special lessons in ruml !listricts suitable for the surroundingB, it will enlarge tbe enlTiculum ?-Yes, certainly.

l414. Then t.he system of payment by results would be a further bloek to the useful application of those lessons ?--Jnst as much liS I saitl before.

14l5. Do you think thoRe subjects would be taken up warmly by the tenchers ?~By some. 1416. All arc not suite,\ for it ?-'1'hat is it. 1417. Where they are specially sl1itecl for it you think those leetures could be uscfully introduced?

-Yes. . ' l4;18. Such as elementary lessO/,s in o.griculture ?-I may say I am in some doubt flS to the exteut

we can go; we eanllot introduce all these things. There might be s[leeial les.ions iu agriculture in one ease, and manual t mining ill anothpr ; tlmt is where the optioIl might be allowed.

1419. Tlmt would be largely in the discrction of t lIC illspeetor of the district ?-O£ the Department through him. '

1420. By MI", Jellkins.- Wonld yon exclude the teacher fr()lll thc option ?-X 0; J ~",y the option iB specially his, aeeorcling as he said" lam fit," 01' " I am lInfi!.." LL wOllld bel foolish to say to a teaeher that he ~hould do what he was not fit for. Thc object should be to let the tC;[lehers tak,: llP what they can do best 111 the new subjects. "

H21. Subject 10 certain limits as to the snbject-matter, and llluler strict limiCa (t~ CQ ~iI1Je?-Yes.

Henry F. Rix 4tli'~UgUSt; 1009. 72

1422. You say that as regards scienee ~he programme is had; ·wh{),t special d·ircction hav.e yon in yonr milldill which it is bad?~Itwas pre~iollsly'better' than it is now. The previolls order :jVas more systematic, and prindples were taught which were afterwltrds applied. 'I'he fault of the teaching wus that the mat.ter was tanght in too abstract a manner. It must be based on eXpElI'illlellt and observation, and' from that principles educed ;, then you C!}J1 bring in the appliances in order to see how 11le principles apply.

. ] 423. Th~t is not done now ?~N 0, I consider i,t is not. The English ordel', allLI 0111' previolls order, was to begin with tl}e three states or mnttcr, and fr.om lbat w.orkup to the applinnces that are now. in the prpgrarrme ; t.hat order has 'been reversed. " ;, 1424. I~ave you any special direction in yonr mind in .which you wOllie! start children in the study of Bcienti.fic mattCl'1~1 think'the most usefnl scientific teachinO' is that which has >to do with thc science of work or mech~nics. ,. 0 - .

1425. phen~ical science ?-You cannot teach all the sciences. 1426. You would prefer mechanics to chemical science as the best foundation for general

science teachin!!.· . ,. 1427 .. Would you connect that with the early math~matical wo~k they ha:ve iil llrit,hmelic ?-My

reason js that, ,~s mannal work is the destiny of most of the childrell, the labom-saving appliances ohould be understood by aU-bow labour can be economized.

1428. You c.o.nsider that ,the study of elementary mechanics, if tlJ.ught systematicaUy, would bll of most general utility ?-That is what I think. . J4~9. 1f a teacher has a desire to take np chemical science, would yon have ony objection to his

doing soP-None whatever; that is provided fo'r now. ]f n teacher asks to he allowed to substitute allY other scientific course it is submitted for approval, fllId, if n.pproved of, he teaches it .

. 1430. T oa said that a syllabus should be drawn up in different subjects; wbat bad you ill your Plind t.here ?-More particularly the science t.eaching ; chilt the order of teaching and tlie w~y of teaching should be .outlined fo)' the I eaeher. '

'14o( Would yon require him to rigidly adhere to that syllabus ?~No, I do not be1ieve in l'igiJ adherence to anything in eOue/1t,ioll. . '

.1432. If wonld be more for the iIlstructioll of the unlearned teacher thaI; for t.he learned one?-It woulll be for general guidm;ce. ,.

,li33. Would 3:0tl approve of t.ext-bollks being drawn IIp'by the Department ?-Yes, 01' by anyone with fhe app!ovnl of the Department. . ' .

1434, Would you prpf~r that any particular text-book shonld be written and prescribed, 01' tlIn.t. they might permit tel} t'o use any text-book ?--If there is It suitable tel't-hook it. might be sllggest!Jd that that is a !!ootl book. I would !lot prescribe allY particular book, hecallse a bett<"1' one might subseqqently be avr:ilable; but if there ~s a good book, and no hetter one hilS come forward, I wonld have it by all means.

1435. The text-book would deal more with t.he improved mode of teaching -than wit.h the ~ejence itself, the iJcience bGing plementary ?-Quite so. .

1436. Would yon prefer to' have !L skilled teacher visiting t,be ::;ehools in YOllr llistrict on aCCOl1nt of pis better special knowledge, 01' tj:]llt the (;eachers should tnke the subjects themselves ?~,It would be infinitely b,etter' thnt tbe school teachers shonld do it thcl1lsel ves.

1437. How wqilld you provide for the teacher's instruction ?~By training all the teaciJel's you c.an .. It is desirable ~hat all teachers fihollld go through training.

1438. iVe have to deal witl1 the fact that a. gl'e,\t many teaehel's hl~ve not been trainqo, allll yOIl flay there will be a block ill promotion for many ye!1rs; how would you help those teacher~ ?~Somc places are ~ore sc::..ttered t.han others; in towns it is practicnble for the teachers to come together; in the scattered districts it is not. . . i 439: Would yon prefer that those teachers shonld pick up knowledge from as good tex.t-book~ al>

~an pc offer!3d to thein, or that they should be instl'llcted loy good instructors ?-By all me!111S lctthem have any aid they can get, by lectures or allY ot her means.

1440. W mild you prefer t.hat the tenchers should be mltde to work as hard as ever they call, and gpt this informal,ion by any means in their power, or that spedal teachers should be sent ronnd 10 t.each these subjects.1-J wonlJ sooner see 11 teacher encolIl'aged to (lo it him~elf. T do not helieve in visiting teachers when we ean do it with thG regulln, staff. .

1-141. How would yon eneonrage the telJ,cber ?-Tlle teachers are nearly nl ways eager to do all tlley can. If It teacher got a good report, that would stnnd ill his favonr when _the question of' promotion came u:p.; it would mean a better record for him.

1442. The great ma:jority of the teachers would do t,he work for its oWllsnlw, but how aboqt those who would no~ ?-\Ve nlways pll-ve some of those with UB, bnt I thinl, as long as we provide £01' the average teacher that is !111 we can do, and try 10 get as mneh as we Ciln ont of the otbers.

1443. You have referred to the desirability of a conference between the inspectOl'ii and the teachers? -No, not a conference; aliI snggested was that when allY cbanges are imminent, or new work b proposed, the teachers sho!11d be nsked to formulate (,heir idpas on Ihe subject, amI these ideas should he submitted to the conference of inspectors. Each I,ody should con~ider the matter separat.ely. The teachers should send their s!lgge~tiollS and rey(Jmmelldntiolls f r t.he consider!l lion of the confel'ence - "

1444. Are'You aware whcther the teachers were consulted ~lbont the re-introduction of Kindergarten and manual t.raining ?-l have no idea; 1 am in a remol,e dis/rict..

144$. Would you .care to ex.amine on those subjects at thc present moment 1-I1 is mo~e a cnse of inspection than examination. 1 have ~een but little KillClergarten ,York. I understand the principles of Kindergarten thoroug!lly, and 1 should be vpry pleased to see it introduced, hut I have not seen much of tho practical work.

1446. Would you pr'e£erthat somebo4y who had seen more of it should examine tbe \,"ork ?.,-,.We aU have to gain our experience by seeing.

144i. Referring to infant sehools and ~pecinlly trained t.eachers, yon are of opinion that t!le teachers of infant schools should have a sp"cial trairling ?-Most decidedly. .

1448. In a school of 200 children, where tnere are sevemi tenchers engage!l, would yon prefer to see the infant school ~bsolniel! separated from the elder school ?--,N 0, '

73

1449. ¥ DU think ·the tWD schD.ols are betcter under the one master?-Yes, under Olle 11Cad. The children .of the l@wer schDol h:we e\'ellf,llully to he promotell ·to ·the upper school, and ,the teacher of the lower schDol might Jhink t.hey were fit for prDlI),0t.ioll- when tJ1e teachel' of tho upper "cho.ol did not., and th('U t,here wDuld be a cOllflict 01 opinion. I know that happened in Sydney where they bad that plan., 'Hni} they changed it for that very rea~on. There are many teftchers who excel as infant 8chool teaciler3, but in arder to ge.L their promafion they have to .1(;[tove ,t.l}.at work, for which they me speelally fit, and take small schools in the cOllutry; S'o tho special apt.ilndo Df thDse teachers fDr th1}J work is lost t·o t}j~ Department.

1450. Do yon cO,mitler their ahility is les8 than that 0f the ordilllwy ·Jlead teacher ?-The lwad teacher Qf a big school could Ho;t be a l.ady, SQ iL ,is Hot a qll,est,ioll 0f comp:uing ,t.hem; ladies cannot tuke a schQol of more thnn a certain size, [lild there mllst be 11 lady ·iN chlt"rge of the infant. school, SD y011 {'nnnot compare the twa, ·and you cou·ld 1101 I1bk t.hem to exchange plac!'S!, _

1451. In yonr opinion, Qught the ch'iei' af the inf~nt dopartmenj. tQ havc the whQle resPQnsibility of thllL department ?-Every teacher lUIS the responsibility Qf his or her daBS,

1452. But beyond that ?-Tht, s]l('c inlly qualified mistress of tlw .infam room would hnye lfJD/£

authDrity and responsibility than a cllt,s t.clv;her, but sti)! she should be subordinate to the head teacher.

1453 . .She should 1l0L be pnked 11b {I. helJ.cI t,8ilCher hJl)'l:!elf ? -No, i ·think lwt 145 t. Thel'!3 is a ,eerLain amount of minillg dono in yom districj;, have you t,ll()tl~ht of any way ill

which an attempt mifJ,'ht be made ,to inclncf! thc chil,Iren eto IQok upon mining problems as interesting?­No,l have not thQught of t,hat.

'1455. Is there any Qther seience besides me!3h'Hlics that you·think migh~ be suustituted ?-Where tbe teacher has a special knowlerlge and interesL ,in lj-ny Qther subject, hc may now Ijosk the Department 10

substitnte it, awl permission is grantcd. . 1456. Such as elementary geolQgy ?'7""That subject ha.s never been asked for yot, ta my kUQwledge. 1457. Or mineral0gy 1--1 am disPQsed to th11)k tbat is Iao abstract. 145H. YQll _ave put forwlt.l'd certain views about ,teacllers having regular incQmes insi-ead of being

paid by results-have yon c011siclcred the possibility .of a tea.cher not ma'intaining the higb Iltamlard tbat he reached fit 011e time ?-U his work get,s llllsatisfact0l'Y he goes dawn under the Bcheme I suggcsted ; there are dccrements as well as illcrements. There is one Qther -point 1 wish tQ rererto-that is as to tJ18 proba­tion of teachers. A cOlltributing canse to thc sl.agnatioll af prQmotiQ)1 is that life tenure is granteJ to pupil teachers in Victoria of but one year's standillg, who may have been seen but ollce by the inspector. In Great Britain pupil teachers, aftpr sltL,isfactQrily completing their course, and getting a first class in the Queen's Sehohtr~hip examinatiQll, which is the final examiuat,ion Qf their J:)QnrE'C, if speciall:}' recQmmended by the inspectQr, arc provisionnllycertitlcated, and may have eharge of a schoQl until 25 years Qf age. Then, iCtlJay have not obtained th<3ir 'certificalP, their servic.es are dispensed with. Until.a teacher has gat a certi6eate of eQmpeteney he is presumahly h1eompetent to some extent, and therefore shQuld be Qn probation, so t,hat if I)B prove,s a failnre he can be gQt ri.c! of. To see a PlJpiJ teaeh!)r Ollee only in his first year is rIot sufficient to warrant Qursaying that he will be a success. ,

1459. Do you think that wQuld bave speeial bearing Qn these new subjects ?-Jt has special bearing on the promotion of teaeher~, which affects t he whole ~pil'it of the work.

1460. Some of these subje~ts make cOl18iderahle demauds on the teaching: powers-do .fou think that. this want of probl~tio'l wiU seriolJsly ll.ffeet t.he teaJ:)hing of the subjects, by allowing mpre weak teaehers tJ) eome in, and keep in 7,""'7 Yes, it, 1l1uet aff'et:)t the service injuriQllsly tQ giye a life tenure tQ failures as teaehers. It is most difficult to get l:i.t1 of tlHlp:l nn.der the present order of thitlgs.

1461. By .Wr. Long . ...,..,. You speak llob.O))t a delJre!lse in fQrmal grammar-what would YOll do in Class III., where they have some parsing and apa1ysis..",.would you leav.e Qne oi' thQse or take it all out ?­I would leave t.he,nnalysis into subject and predieate awl uegin the parsing ill the 4th class.

1462. Do YOH think it a gOQli thing to hav.e a separatc pass for drawing ?-1 do, under the present system.

1463. What is tbe tiIT).e given to .elra.wing ill the sohools now 1-1n t.he small schools two half-houri? a ,veek.

1464. po yon think that thM provides suffi!.!ie!lt prl!t:)lice at one sitting for thc efficient, learning Qf drawing 1-1 htH'o told the teIWhers that prQba.bly when the new dmwing inspector has formulnted his scheme the time will baye to be iIH;rei!.scd.

1465. LOllS time is lost ill getting a start and fi1lishing oil in small BcliQols t,han ill big Qnes ? ~ Y ~Sl bQoks ell.n be got out in a moment,

1466. Did YOll approve of the scheme Qf object lesson;; in the circular of appr.ol'ed cpurses ?­Yes.

1467. In treating pl!l-nt life and l\Qimal life, WQuid y'!)u, as Mr. Tate would, rcquire the teacher to giye lessons on plants and animals ronnd the school or in the (jistrict ?-;-They should start wjth what they know.

1468. You would. rather Imn.l a lessQn Oil a cow tbau on an elephant ?-Decidedly. 1469. In fQreign coUUt,rit:)8 tlJose le"sons on animals llre OOll1l1WU in the schools ?-I WQuld let that

come in thc rerM.lillg lesson, !1l1d pot have 11· sp!3cial lesson on it-l would begin with what the chilli has sQme knowledge Qf; they are QQjllct lessol1s, 1I0t pieture lessons. .

1470. Will yon expl:till [lOW it has eome about that lYe have pupiJ tclteherf; pmctically dQing assistant,,' work fit the present tim!3 '?-,.,,-J think simply to save mDney; I am ,011 the borller of the colony, and hl1ve !lot auy knowledge Qf the tOWI1 schools. •

1471. This blook in promotion has kept pnpil teaehcrs frDm getting away to schoQls ?-1'l1at has notbing to do with the staffiug of schools.

1472. The Humber of pupil teachers is not owing tQ this black ?-It cannot be-the staffing of ~chQQIs is fixed independently Df t.hnt.

1473. In regard tQ thll rCSIjJt system it! the United KiJlgdom, will you explain how the mouey payment was :plade, on what fQrm of examination, before theya.boHshed it ?-I do nat remember l,ho details of the English system-I wetcPlT)e,1 the news that it had been done aWlw with-each rosult system differs in important points. "

Henry'l~. I{.ix, 4th ·Allg1Isb,'lS90. 74

1474. IIi Ireland should a pupil enter at t.hree, four, or six years of age, he is enrolled as an infant, and he is kept in the infant cines for two. three, f01ll', or perhaps five years-during all thiH Lime he does not learn more tlIallll child properly taught w~lllid easily leftrIl in 11 year. Then when he hils become dull and stupid he is promotell to the 1st class; is that possible with ns "?-I wonld like to loww who wrote that ..

1475. That is tue latest report by the head inspeetor uDder tile Irish National Board ?-We have . no iruant schools here, so it could not. apply.

1476. The. toacher could not keop in n fOl' the sake, of mInting a cortain mOlley gmnt, a child year after year ill tlwt wfly "?-~o, certainly not. ,

1477. By Mr. Jenltin8.-11a\'e you many children threc years old in your schools ?-'tVe Cllilnot have them; four yeal's and six months is the earliest. ,

1478. By lUr. Lrmg.-Do you kuow that if pllpils had not made 100 attendances they would, not be examilled uuder the result. system in the Unite(l Kingdom? -I had forgot.ten it.

1479. That would not apply herc'?-N"o, We examiuc :III the children; my objeet.:ioll~ to our system are independeut of nil other syBtems.

1480. 'tV-here a pllpil answers so urilliantly at the resnlt examination as to justify exceptional treatment, the teacher might" Huder exceptional ciI'Cllmstanee~, Illake a second promotion in :,six months '?­I think it iiS very ullllc,:;irable HwL the ehildl'en should be foroed up at all times of the year and disorgauize the class into which they go. It lIsed to be done in old times, mitil we auolished the plan of examining each claFS ill the work of the dass below; that was twelve years· ago; before that. promotion wellt on all the year round. '

1481. What is the general length of the school day in the schools in yonI' district ?~Five ho'lIrs. 14~2, If mallual work 'were put. in~o the course, do yOll thillk it would be possible or desirable to

illcrense that time?-I think t.he mannal occupation, if it" caille at the-eud, is of sllch a ,character that the children ~ollid keep 01\ half-an-hollr aft,,!, dlc ordinary time wit.bout allY strain,

1483. You think if we lind tlYO hours a week fiJI' himd and eye oecupatiolls, tlte afternoous of those two days might be lengthened a little without prejudice to the children 1-·1 think nn honr could be got that way, except in dairyillg places whm'e tbe children hnve to milk their ten cows ill the evening.

1481. Yon are rtW!tl'e the teachers wish to hold a congress in September ?-Yes. 1 {8,5. Did yon think it was Ii fair request to make that the t,eachers should get a week's holiday in

September for the eongress ?-I thought what was done in Sonth Anstralia might fairly, be done here. 1486. Is that in the direetion of lossening the holiday at Ellsler in order to give them the time in

September, or Hre yon ngreeahle to giving another week's holiday in order that the t,eacheJ's ~hOlll!l attend the congress ?-On!y (;0 such tellchers as al tend. '

i487. YOll would let them close their schools in order to 'come to the eongress ?-I think the chi.ldren would gain as mnch as wOlll!l make up for the days spent nt the congress 1>y the teachers.

1488. It wonltl amount to a \\'cekiu the outlying districts ?--Yes. . 1489. In connexioll with the large disiricts and the overwOI'k of inspectors, YOll bave lookod into

thc proposals of the Reelassificatioi1 Board-call yon say what increase in t.he offieel's is proposed there? ~'fhey propose to increase the o~ce staff hy one-fourth-they make no proposal a.t all as to the inspec-toml staff. . • .

1490. Thoy leave tllC distt'icls I he 'same size as t.hey are now ?-They do, 1491. Have you iJecn able to find ont whllt tile duties of n board inspector are in England ?-I ha.ve

heard tbat they orgllllize nnd lllGY examine, but I have 110 clear knowledge on the subject-there is no assessing the gram Itt home now; they simply say whether a school is efficient 01' not etlicient~the toach(Jr gets a regular grant. If a school is reported liS 110(; effieient the teacher or the board of ma1Utgement have the right, of appeal; then the chief iuspoclor goes and inspects again, and if his verdict agrees with the inspector's verdict the grant may he withheld a!together.-

1492. Remembering your district t\nd the science WElTk in it" have yon noticod any great dispositi<!l1 to take up a spociaJ ('ourse instead of the comse iaid down in the regulations ?-Very little disposition, and I itttl not slIl'pri:icd, for ~lltler ille result system all run in the one groove; that is the natural outcomC'. They tak;e what ·t.he Depa.rtment asks for liS the thing to 'be done-the teacher says-" What the Depart-ment pnys for is what it wa.nts, why should I go outside of that?" ,

1493. By ltfr. Jen1cins.-The DeplIl'tmont's minimum is the practical maximum ?~That is so. 1494. By llf.r. Long.-In connexion with grllmmar and .langnage, \\'e Ilear from those educated iu

the higher schools of Great 13r;tain that they nevcr leal'l!t English grammar; we attach great importance to it-is there auy reaSOll foJ' that ?~The reason given is tlmt it gives a kind of ment!ll training \hat no other subject gives,

1495. Did it ev~r OCCllr to YOll that it was to make up for Olll' not teaching a foreign lllllguage?~ There is no quest,ioll of teaching It foreign langnage in 1he elementary schools, so it. (Junnot be It substitute for something that wonld not be there in any ease.

1496. Did Ihey not teach It foreign language ill the German schools (-They teaell their own langnage first of all.

1497. 'fliey do not teadl English grammar in' tbe English gramm!ll' schools, but they teach a foreign language ?-'--They Ilsed not.tO, bllt since Thring's.timc many do; it is one of the modern subjects.

149H. You recognise grammar as of valne, uut YOll th:nk the fine points should be cut out~how much time is given 10 the gmmm!lr lessons '!~T",o holll's and a half a week. ' , 1499. How long might be given profitably, nnd still do enough ?~I would not give fess than two hours, but I would expect the work to go in diiferent directions, to have more constructive work, more composition, bringing their knowledge of gmmrnar into practical sentence .1>nilding.

1500. By.M?'. Jenk£ns.-Could . the time spcnt on "Titing be reduccd ?-It has been very much ~edueod in many scbools. Where itis well taught YOll can give little time, and where it is badly taught yon mlist give more time.

1501. Is there mnch model drawing taught in your district ?-PructicaUy llone. 1£i02. vVollld yon prefer to sec it tallght ?-Jnst now there i~ a. feeling ill Germany and elsewhere

jn favour of introdudng it cnl'ly-I think much too early. Young children see only ill two dimensions; their' eye~ are not etlncated to see in t.llree-outline drawing is 1111 they can understand, If a cl.lild (lraws a faee

75 Henry ~'. Ril(, 4th August, 1899.

in profile it usually shows the nose amI two eyes, because it pnts all the knowledge it has of a faee into one pip-ture. ff it draws a hOlJse it shows the front of the house-and the tl\,O gable ends at once, which is 8n impossible view. It is absnrd to expect Iit.tle 'babies to 8ee as all artist wonld sec.

1503. \Vhen would you commence' to teneh model drawillg ?-Not until you got. wolt up in the sehool, not until the fourth e!ass at least.. Taylor, in his" Elementary Art Teaehing," shows that it is a bad thing to begin it before the children can grasp it, and he is a lllall of great experience.

1504 .. Is there any scale drawing taught in the distriet ?-Thel'C is scale drawing done; that is, they have a copy, and they reproduce what is in the book.

1505. Not from It model ?-.No. A few years back the teachers knew nothing of dmwing; they are gradnally getting more experL; and with this !lew maD we hope to quicken our Wll,YS. A new snhject cannot get into a high stat!' of perfection at a jump.

1506. Yon think an art iustruetor is a persollof milch benefit ?-He may. be ; it depends upon die man. He can be certainly, alHI wc belicI'e he will be. .

1507. Do YOIl think he is of more bcncfit than an additional inspector ?-An additional ill~pector cannot do the same work, S0 I canllot illIswer tha~.

15llS. By .Mr. Poolman.-Do you appro\'c of' the pre:oent sy:;telll of giving certificates to children nuder 18 yenrs of age ?-No; I think it a very hamlful one. The brightest children geL certificates when young-from eight up to twel ve. Those children very ofren attend school so badly afterwards that the good promise they tmtde when yonug is not fulfilled_. In Germany and Switzerland no children are allowed to leave school until they arc.fomteeu. Matthew Arnold, in England, years ago condemlled the English plan of lettillg the children leave school as soon as they got the minimum standard. They leave school nlll] luiter abont the street, and get into bad habits that injuriously affect all their future lives, aud the tOile of thc whole school is spoilL by children wanting to get their cert.ificates in ortler to escape frolH EchooL As a ccnsequencc of Matthew Arnold's agitat.ion, the age for getting a certificate w:as fixed at eleven yeul's, and tben only those children were exnmined whose parell ts asked that tlley should be, in order that they might go to 1I'0rk. This very year the limit has been raised there to twelYe years, and as onr compulsory age is t,hirtcen I thiuk that is quite early enough for ehildrell to leave seuool; they rarely get iuto work before that; in fa.cI, I think it would be well if we brollght our compnlsory age limit up to fOlH;,teen, the sa.lIle as ill the cOllt.ineutal count.des ..

1509. By ~tlr. Potts.-Theu you would have ample opportunity to introduce technical training? -Yes. .

1510. By .l}tr. Poolman.-Do you think, even after a eertilicate has been granted, attendance at some iilchool until a certaiu age should be expeeted ?~If a child gets a certificate ut nille he can go to 110

school better than a day sehool. He should remain at t.hat school Ilutil he is thirteen; but after he has finished his ordiuary school term, if we lire to follow the continental practice (and the practice is spreading), we would require him to attend some other ~cbool fOf two nights in the week, or 11 eontinufotion school, in order that he might learn the principles of the calling he iutendcd to follow; that is compulsory ill some principalities of Germany. In Junc last tbis letter from a parent was handed to me by a teacher :-'.' I am keeping ::Mary nt hOl1le during Llle examination, as she might get her certificate, ant! 1 do not 'wbh bel' to." I wrote and asked tbe reason, and he replied-" Because I do llot believe ill fourth class educatio'Tl, as I have one boy already spoiled through getting his certificate in that clm;s; he w.ould not go to school, .and 1 found it was no use to force him."

1511. By llfr. Putts.-This is an extract from a paper issued by the Department :-" In the kingdom of Wurtemberg there is an excf'llEl.llt syst.em of education. There hoys are required to atton'd school ulltil they are fourteen years of age, and arc afterwards obliged to attend a school of some kind until they have attuined the age of eighteen. To llleet req niremellts, winter evening schools hMe been established at whicb attendance fOI- 111'0 evening8 a week i:,; olJligntory. The pupils are ~aught the eJements of agricultural chemistry, tJ1e composition of soils, dairyiug, clementary mechanics, natural history-mainly of farm anilllab-and· bookkcepillg. In the second winter, botany, entomology, plant and animal physiology Ilre added to the cnrricu!um. According to a retlll'lI published SOllle time ago, there were no less than 658 winter evening schools ill WUl'temberg, having 14,188 pupils. Some writers argile that it is imp08sible for ladR wearied with work in the fields to givc their minds uodully to different subjects, and say that the sY8tem is a.comparative failnre ; others eOlltend that in some eaSes it may not ue of much advn.ntage to lads, but tlutt it gives to all who are able and willing to emorace them splendid opportuniJ,ies of ad vll.ncemellt:' Do YOll ltiSree with that ?-I do; awl 1 wonld say that if that system were adopted here, we could dispense wit h tho teaching of those snhjects ill the day schoo\. I think t.hev would profit more at tnat age after school than in the State schools. 1 refer to Ilgricultlll'e anu kindred ~·ciences, not to elementary scicllce ; tbat shonld be taught ill the schooL Elemontary scieuce and thesc lllanual occupations fit in wjth general education better than dairying or agricultura.l or mining education, but if the~e were no contiuuatioll schools afterwards, and a tea.cher showed special aptitude for teaching those subJect.s, I would 1I0i exeluue them.

1512. By j}[r, Jenkins.-ShOllltl the contilluatiolJ schools be held in the evening ?-For boys they should. What else can yOIl do?

1513. Do yon think the present Ie/tellers could be utiiized for that. work?~No; I wO,uld let them have their eyenings; we w[lnt thom to do tIle best. work they CHn ill the rlll,y-time.

1514 . .By Jlr. Potts.-Iu yom experience as all inspector !Jave you found your reports to the Department interfered with ?-I have hat! portions of my reports excised. My 1897 report had portions of it eX('ised-on examination methods, and OIl payments hy results. The DepartrnclIt holds the opinion that we should not advocate any large educa'tional reforms until there is a public demand for them.

151,'). Have you had an official intimation to tlmt effect? -N o. 1516. Then how do you arrive !1t tbat opillion ?-The matter of payment by results was not dis­

cussed at the last conference, and it was understood that was tho reason why. The most important reform during the last twenty years was effected wit.h no public opiuifJll hehind it. It was initiated by conntry inspectors, and it hung fire for three years, as the office was undecided-that was the abolition of t,he old absurd piau of examining classes ill the work or t.11C class below, instead of tho work they had dOlle durinO' the previous yenr, therefore I think we should 1I0t. wait for public opiuion. Weare the people who are i~ the best position to see whether the Act is properly carried out arnot; thQ publie canlIot form an opinion unless they get their faets through the inspectors.

--------- -~-...

1517. Y ouhold ,81 I'(.)?g .opinions about portions of ~'Olll' reports heing 'ex-cised ?-W c ohj!Jc:t ,tp it, naturally. .

, 1518. By lIl'r. Jenk:ins.~ You mwke y01l1' report IHlde!' 11 scnse of persoll>l'll'eSpOIlsibil,ity ?~nocidedly, This is :what Dr. Pea~8oIl said Oil thesubjecI, fo a depntatcion from t,he Tcachers' Union ,on dlc 29th of 14areb, 1890-~" Parliamelll ,:111\1 t.he ,country lw.d the right to blOW froml,he impecto1's, as experts, wj:terJ,er the system was dohlg gO(H,1 and if the Depa,rtment ollce IHlopted the pmctice of snppressing nnfavor­able reports or ullfilvol'able pas811ges in them, Mid printed olJly the favomhle re~lOrts, the, c~)]l:Seq uences would be most deplorablp." Miss Shil'reff says, as 'tH the teaching of Kindergnrten-" What is s,.ill to_day remains true for ever, aml j hat Ileglect of pri'llciples, t,]mJ. 'Pl:eference 1'01' the su,pprfici!11 at' KiJ!uergartell pmctice OV'!'f the ,theory of :educilitioll 011 which it is based :tIltH'rom which it der,iv,es vnlue, is sti.ll qne of tlle mo~t fatal hindrances to progl'e8s. Indeed, as K.inilergaltens multiply, it becomes even 1)101'0 ,n,ec!;s,

.SM'y to repeat tlw,t, in llsiug Frobel's gifts, we' do nothing, ,01' worse -timl1 nothing, IwIess we pilI into each exercise Frob(~l's spirit and purpose." . '

1519. Do you cOllsidol'<tlle met,hod far more important than rhe gift itself ?_Undoubtedly. The educational pUl'po~e oj' the t hillg mOre than the lI1el'e exel'eise ShOll'ld bC]Jres.en[\; in the mind of ,eyery tea,cher,

1520, The gift is ouly tbe means to an eud '!~Yes, and it will fail or its end if the teacher does not understand its 'purpOSI? At the same time it is nol; 'Hece~sary to wait for the imtl'llctors to come ()u.t .. We inspectors know the teachers who !!Ire specially fit for infant school wvrk, and could start studying the principles at OJlce.

, 152t. But are not at 'present englliged in infant sehool work ?-8.orne nr.e and some are nOt, In order to get their 'l1rmnotion they have to ,leave their jimior elasses and tiake small sehoo[s. That, is tbe effect of om present sJslem.

1522. You have some material that might be utilized, but under thc present eondition of things you eallnot utilize it?-Not ulltil power is taken to put t.eacl,ers where tiley r.an do the best work.

C, R. .J. G,

The witness withdrew.

Adiourned.

TUESDAY, 81'H AUGUST, 1899.

jUemhers present:

!J. H. ¥AcFAJlLAND,

Long, Esq., M.A., Barretl, Esq.,

E~q., LL.D., in the Chair;

H. C .• Jenki-ns, Esq., F. W. Poolmatl, Esq., J.P.'

George Henry CaIter, SWOI'll. and examined.

1523. By tlte, Cli.air1narl .. -'- What are you ?-Hea.t\ feacheJ; of Brighton btate school. 1524. I Ilnderstand you come here as a represelltative of the Vipwl'iull St,ate School Teacher:>

Union ?~Yeil. 1525, W1Ult does that nniop [nelude ?-Atnlialed association§. from vn:;'ions parts of Vietorill, SOm.8

30 odd associations. 1526, You are prepared to give the CornIll'is~io]j evidence 011 lhe subject of elcmentary science

tea~hlng iathe State schools?-Yes . .li'i27. Do you take an interest in that hrallch of teaching yourself ?-Yes. 1528, VlTbat amount of seieHee teaching is given at prCsclIt in the State schools pel' week?­

About all hour. 1529. Is that teaching done. with apparatus, or is it merely verbal teaching ?-We have s{)me

appamtns. 1530. Do YOll use apparatus ?-We have wme appamtlls fOl.'leflsoll8 in in mv schooL 1531. Are there speciol1csso!ls inscicnce-yoll are 110t. of i,he science tea~hillg thati~

'included ill geuernl· lessons? -As proscribed ill om' programme, As stunds :1t present we have 110

special science uOlhi ng approaching to what is jJroposed in the llew programme. 15:32. The sciellee teaching is small compared to what YOll think will be proposed ?-Yes. 1533. 'What amount of science teaching could with UUnl.llluge be iHtl'oduced into the State school

curriculum ?-'Vc eouid not introduce mueh more; in fact, t.he present progl'lIInme is very heavy indeed. The ehiltlren are really overweightell with the work tl~ it stand's, and if m()I'C science and ot,hel' thillg,;, as

proposed, are introduced, there ll1llst he a. very considerablo modification of' 1,\le progrmllme in the illterests of the childrell. It wonld be very cruel to add to their bmdells to any extent.

1534. As regards the science teaching itself, are you of opillion that more might. ",it.h advantage be introduced, and some other subjects left ont ?-Certainly.

1535. Of whut partieulur science teaching are you spenking-:-are you speakillg of science in general, or science as IIlOTe directly applied to such things as minillg and agrieulture, dairying and manufactures?-'­Science generally, as a m10; but in certRin districts as proposed, of course 011 the lines laid down in the ill'ogra11lllle that has been issued. , , 1536. Wha.t programme do you refer to r-l mean iuregard to the eir(mlar as to mining, I1grieultnre, Jair'vinO', and so 011, in variolls districts; such science as is applicable to vUriOliS distri(5ts,

" 1537. Yon t.hink iustructions in those special subjects could be introuuced into State sehools with advant:lge ?-Yes.

. 1538. Would you confine it to sOIne classe~ ?-l would eon fine it [0 the upper clnsses-the,5th and 6th. W4~n I say" I," 1 should say that is the opinion of the union.

n GoorgeR. Cartel';' 8th,August; 1899;

glvmg snch teach.iHg?-Yes, I think we There Il.!'!" only a fe·"" schools provided

1539. Would much additiolH1,1 nppal'fLms be reqllired for would ni;lcd a good' dewl of addit.iollal· apparatus in some schools. with any fair supply of apprlratns, as far as 1 kllo·w.

. l!540. Have vou considered the matter in d'etaiJ, as to what subjects would be taken up with the 5th class, and what ~ubjects with Ihe 13th class ?-No, tbat hfl;s not been' eonsidm:ed,

. 1541. It is on general gl'OlllHI's you would: say tha.t appn.ratus would: be· r,equired:-you have not considered the details. ef whnt apparatus wonld be r.equired, but yo .. think science teaching always invorves appamtus 'I-Yes, to make the lessons effecti,vc. '

1542. You have nO'idea of the cost of such apparatus ?-N:o. 1543. Do you consider t.!mt so far ns the recognit,ion, by the IDepari.ment of the (leaching ra.

elementary science is concerned there ought to be a change made. .At the present time most of, the' 'elel11enti~ry science is inclridell under the heall of: gelleIlal t-essons, nUll therefore does not take a very important part in reckoning np paymelH liy results. Do yon: consi'Jer it ough.t to be advanced in its, position, as d'mwing has been ?-'l'heI'e is f\ sepamte pass for th;is work in the uppel' classes at pr.esent.

1544. Do you consider any change eught to be made iu- the othcr classes fo!' elementary science,. OIl is the present method 'satisfactory ?-We are against the principle of payments hy results n,ltogethel'l We, woul'd, not like to, see it applied. a,nywhel'e. .

15i5. If 'yon Imve not considered the matter in detail at all. have you idea as to the time per week that shoulJ be devoted! to t,he science teachillg in the 5th and 6th. classes think the i.tlea is that n.bout an' hour 11 week at first, possibly more lat,er on, would be required!. We do· not tllin.k it would. be possible to spare more time (,han an hour a week,

1546. Do YB!l' thill k theI'e are many teachers ill the Depnrtment at present who would be competent to give. such attenr,ion as' yon speak of: to the 5tb. ami 6t,h classes ?-I think so.

1547. Would. yon say that in the majorit.yof theschoo!s yon could find men interested in science who would, be able to take this suoject up effectively as all edllcatioual subject ?-I think that we·.,hould fi"nd in the majorit.y of schools plenty of men who would be so intel'ested in it that if they are not qualified> now t.hey wonld soon mn.ke (·hemselves qnnlificc\'.

1548. D0. YOll think menl could 4!lalify themselve~, by reailing up the subject wit.hout special training in classes in a college, or classes held in large centres I-They wonld undoubtedly need special: trai'Bing, but there, is no r.enSOll why they coulJ not make a start in thc elemen-talT work, and qualify themselves for that worl"

1'549. Do you. consider that the re-establislllnent of, the Training College,would be es~ential before, or very SOO!] atter, introducing those science teacbillg·?-Yes, Jecid·edly.

15,50. Are t.here any obscrvations you wish to add in cOllllexion with this, science tea.{)hing? -No. 1551.. By }J:fr. Lon,q.-Concel'lling the teaching of electricit.y in' your school, to what classes is that.

tll:ugh.t?-TiJere are appliances for teaching eleetricil;y, but tileFe Ims beou very liHle.dono·in the schoo\. I have been there only a short time. We have not made use of the appliances to any e:x;tent beyond lessons on the electric bell, amI the Ilses of tbe battery, lIml so 011. •

l552, In. cOl1nex,ion with. the examination of seience, YOIl have, I snppose, in. mind some way in which you would like to see it examinerl. by t.i1e iJl'lpector-what would bc It good method for the examination of the science work '! -1 (lo 1I0t know that; Ir' ean answer that.

1553. Now did the inspect;,,!' exaill,ine the science work at the last' reoult, examination ?-He hadl a list before him of the lessons that· harl ho:.m gi \lell during the yeal', and, hc framed his questions on, what had' been given. I forget whether he ga \'e thFee or five questions in science and. genel'al.lessons.

1554. The children ans wered t,he questioll 9 ill writing? - Yes, in the (ith class. 1555. Did yon think Ihat was a satisfactory way of testing .VOlll' work in· scienee ?-No, I did not.

l: should like to see "cry many qne,tions giveu, so; that the. inspeet.or might he able to find, out what really l1ad been taught, and not merely get an answer t,o one or two qnestiofls, or not it, as the case might be.

1556. In classes V. and VI. a pass or It failure was put down opposite the na.me of eacli, child in connexioll witlt the general lessolls?~ Yes.

1557. Snppose the resll,lt pttymentR were (aJHm" a\vay, [l;!l(l t'be t.eaehers liad ~1 fixed salary, how do yon tiMnk the seience should he exumiued.?-l t,hillk the teltelier would be able to show the inspector wbat ..

.instruction he had gi\;ell by examining the class himself before the inspector, and traversing the ground' he had: gone over dming the year.

l558. You would consider it reasonable that the inspecto!' the1l shoull! take the class) and. give some tests as Il"ell?-Yes, if he t,jJOnght it necesmry.

1559. In what way would: (,he inspeet.OI' report on that snbjeet··-wonld be report" generally sa.tis­factory,'" or "fair," or give a percentage 1-I t.hink i.t wonld be lUOst ullRatisfactorr for it to, be rednced to any aril.hmetical calcnlatioll. There shonld be n generaheport on the efficiency 01" otherwise of' the work.

1560. III ease of the work nol being efficient; whitt would, be' thc next, step in order to secn-re efficient work from that teacher in that slIbjeet? -Ji'l'o\,ision. would ha·ve to be mnde for snch cases all through in aU subjects if the payment were not on tile results". If. there were 110 monetary. derlUeLions for failure thete could be provision made [or lVant of effieiellt teaching. Whnt that provision. should be I can scarcely ~ay now.

. 1561. The teacher taking tlie clas" and showing what he had done, and then, the inspector, testing with some ot.her ql1estions pre8ents a difficulty-sllppose the inspector reported. (,ha~ the work was unsa·liis­fitcton', wbat, relief would you· recolXlmend that tk, luae:lCl' should have ill a case of that sort ?-If he fel,t h.ims"jE aggrieved, there sh~uld be some appeal to the Dep!tI'tmcnt. 1 do 1I0t kllow what form it should take, but 1 presume provision could be made for it.

1562. There would he 11 tl.iffieulty if, UIlY 'one else went to examine that Class a. fortnight after­wards ?-y- es.

1563. It would uniloubtedly throw 1110re responsibility upon t.he inspecto}'?-Yes, 1564. If the five questions given are objecte.l to hy the teacher, what eOllrse can he take now?­

He can point, out to tho in:,pectol' that, Iw tJlinks the qncstiulls m:e unl'aiIl, amI if rlle iuspector is not. willina. to alter tlwm he cnn n.ppeul to Ihe Depal:tmeIlL, '"

1565. If the J nspector-Goneral consideJ's t,hose questiolls too Ilal'll he cal] allot a certain percentage or have a re-examination ?-I llresmne he can.

George H.~ Cart.er, 8th Au~'ust, 1899. 78

1.'566. Is that, often JonG P--I have never henrt! of its boing done. 1567. You say t,hat, in ~he opinion of the union, it wonld be impossible t,o add to, the progr'amme

• '-do you mean the progmmme at present ill force 1-Ye,;, tbe p~ogramme issued in 1896. 1568. That is as full us it should be? - Yes, as fnr as the capnhilities of the children are concerned.

To ndd LO that would impose llI.lllecessluy hnnlel1s upon thcm. . . 1569. You consider the addition of tile I\:indergartcu work and the hllnd and eye work would be

really ~oing beyond what the children could do? -,If that were snpcrimposed npon the programme. 1570. Yon saw what deductions in geography and grammar have been' made '?-Yes. J 5il. In regard to science work, YOll say the Huion, in considering this instruction in elementary

science in relation t.o minillg, agriculture, dairying, and luallufactures, holds that· only classes V .. and VI. should receive, instrnction in thosc 811 bjects 7- r think that is their opinion. .

1572. Are you aware jf they considered the question of bringing in 4th class boys n.nd girls?­I am not sure. The union would llot object to including the 4th class if it werepmcticablc.

1.173. Would taking IIway the programme of general lessons as we know it at present, and in its place putting in lin honr's lesson in agriculturc, dairying, or mihing, be an unfair thing to do ?-No, I should snarcely sny that it would. • , •

1.)7 4. The chsses to recei ve instructi01\ wonld he cla88e$. V" and V L, as far as YOll know at present? -Yes.

l.'5715. Yon think the teachers would require definite inst.ruction from some one well acquainted with the snbjeet hefore they conld telteh those su hjeets ?- Ye,', before they could teacb them with any degree 01' success.

15i6. It would he practicable to sC 1ld an expert to variolls centres ill the colony in turn, and to collect the t.eachcrs in t.hose cent.res for a COllrl'e of lectures I lhi:lk AO j that is the idea of the nuion.

1577. Do you sce nny way of getting over the difficulty of teachers being prepared in dairying work, and going to a district where mining is tbe pursuit of the people ?-f suppose there would be some little difficulty at first, but a teachcr wonld,soon adapt himself to his altered circnmstances.

1578. It would not be too milch for him to attend 'anotl!er comse ami get np mining ?-I do not think so.

1579 . .1s the nuion satisfied with the Department's action in supplying pound fOI' ponnd for appamtns ?-I do not know. I have heanl no opinion expressed on that.

- 15RO. Personally, do yon think that is fail' cnongh r-I t,hink it should go further. In some places it would become a very heavy tax if they could get 110 fnr·tlter relief llmll tblt. -There are many districts where tbe teaclters could raise the .money locally, and require no aid from the Department. In other places they wonld require t.he whole or almost tho whole of the apparatns pl'ovided by the Departmetlt.

1581. fiy It[r. RftrTett.-::-IIl your examination by t,he Chairman YOIl mentioned the fact that science teaching occupied abollt an hour pCI' week,; dO,yon t.hink th'lt is ,I.ong enough for snch an important. thing? -I should like to be f~bie to allot more time to it.

1582. As it is nolV, thero is 'not sufficient time with tbe programme that you have to impart ?­There is not.

1583. Yon said wit-h regurd to the programme that it was extremely heavy, aud there ,would have to be some modification if the new regnlatiollB came into force; what- subjects would you omit or rednce, or in what way conld the programme be. cut dowlI to introdnec those new subjects in connexion with hand and eye and m[lnllnl training ?~Tbat is where t)lO dilficnh,y 111':8(,.'. All the subjects on the programme are of gren.t importance.

1584. Do you think it is lle(~eSHary to l'c-open the Tra.ining College ?-Yes, decidedly. 1585. Are you of opinion that the closing of t,he Training College has weakened t.he teaching

sttt£f ?--Yes. 1586. Do yon think there should be a. special course ill the college in order to enable the teachers

to take Ul' elementary science ?-Yes, I think so. 1587. Do yon think' that. under present conditions it is possil.J]e for the teachers to obtain the neces­

sary training without an expert ?-N 0, I do not see bow thcy aTe to obtain it in ordCl' to teach the subjects with success. They can give the elementary training, certaillly.

1.588. DG, you think it would be wise to obtain the services of experts specially qualified to give this llece~sary [Ustrilctioll ?-Yes.

V5R9. :If there is a country school where the teacher is nn expet't ill mining 01' in agriculture, and that teachcr is transfel'l'ed to a dairying district, would it be possible to cnrry out this programme under those contlitiol1s ?-I think so. Possibly there woultl be n tempol'ury check to the work in the school that he left, but his sllccessor would take lip tbc work as soon as he could, and he himself could ad:tpt himself to his altered S!lrrolludings in the district to .wltich he was ti'ansfel'l'e(l in a fairly short timc, especially if he were within reach of classes, 80 that he could work up the course,required.

1590. By.Ai?'. Poolman.-Have you any idea of the proportion of yulI1' scholars who leave scbool on gl'tting their certificates ?-.No.

15~1. Do .')0 per ellll. leave ?-1 tbillk·not. i592. ,If you confille this ex 1m science teaching to clnsses Y. and VI. n l:uge proportion of the

scholars wonlt! not benefit hy it ?-:-l think they would not be so anxi.ous to leave if they knew that this teaching was 10, follow; it would be nil induccment to them to stop at school. I think it is the gcneral opinion that vcry great harm is done, particularly ill the large towns, by i~suing these certificates at snch an early age as some 9f the children get them.

1593. Would YOll h!lve a slated age uuder which no child should get a ccrtifiCilte ?-Yes, uut. provision should be lIlade for their heing issne:! in spechl cases ,,-here tlle parents Heeded the services of the children. Occasionally a bright chil,l get.s his certificate at a yery early age, and his l)arent~ are in sncll cil'cl1ll1stltnces that it is IIll absolute nccessity fOI' him to be eflming money; ill such a case I would fayour the issue of a ecrtificate, !Jut ill too Inany cases tbo parents are IItterly indifferent with regard to the movements of their children; they get their certificates and then 1'1111 in the Sl1'eet8. I have known bright intelligent lads get thdr certificate;; in the' 4th class at an early ag{', and after tlmt roam the streets, get beyond all cOl1lrol, nnd dE;yelop into very ll11desirable hoi!)g~.

George H. Oo.rtel'~ sth August, 1890.

1.'194. The early Issue of these certific!1tes is also h!1l'mful to the school, bec!1use it takes away the bright, children ?-Very freqnently.

1i;i95. ,Under what age would yon refuse to grant a cert.ifiente ?-1 cerL!1inly think they should not be issued to ehildrell nnder twelve. -

1.596. Would you be inclined to think that after children of twelve get their certifieates they shonld be compelled to remain at school for another yenr?-Yes; in every cnse where certificates have been issued, I think the chilllrellhave it pointed out to them tbat they are merely issued in order to free their parents from the obligations of the law in ense of neeessity, but tbat their cdue!ttion is by llO means complete, and that they should remain and get all the instruction they can.

1597. By J.lfr. Jenkins.-In giving yonI' views Oll payment by results are you expressing the opinions of YOllr nnion ?--Yes, I think so, t.hough I WitS 'not speeially delel'ltted to speak OIl tbat subject.

1598. What do you cOllsil.ler is the ,reason t.hat children seek to leave sehool at such an l'arly age; is it the attraction of having nothing to do ?-I o:>re say that has It great deal to do with it; to get freedom from control; that is the tendency of the youth of the present day.

1599. You very often lose your best schobl's?-Ycs, very often, and t,hey are converted into unde­sirable subjects in tbe streets. I have brought this matter nndol' tbe notice of the inspectors Oil various occasions.

1600. You think that even the 1896 programme was hel1.Vily over-weighted a" regards the require­ments of the children?-Yes.

1601. AnJ that the alterations made SOllle little time back h:tve made the weight heavicl' still r­Yes, decidedly.

1602. Were the teachers conslllter! in the matter at all ?-1 do not think 80.

1603. Y Oll stated'tlu,t in yonr opiIiioll science should be confined to the 5th and 6th classes; did that include the elementary physiology that is tanght in the schools, or the advanced science ?-1 had in my mind the more advanced work.

1604. Would you take up the easier p Irts of science lkl at present '!-Yes. 1605. At what age wOllld youeommence to teach the ehildren somc of the. phenomena of natUl'e?

-We conld take thai np iu the 4th class; tile ehildren are under twelve in that claqs. 1606. Yon would Hot s~art it earlier thalJ that ?-We could impress some of the phenomena of

nalure on tll,em at nn earlier age; we could give them all elementary idelt of the motions of the earth, day anr! night, and the seasons, at an earlier age; that \\'ollid be merely elementary, to prepare them for better inlltrnction in tlie 5th and 6th classes.

1607. Do you attach much importanec to that elemcntary tminiog ?-Yes, l think it is important. 1608. Is it 114 important to the teacher as the pllpil ?-Yes. 1609. The teacher should have sonnd notions of the snbject matter r-Yes. 1610. How would you propose t.hat the te'achers themselves Hhollld be instrncted ?-Our opinion i;;

that centres shonld be formed for the formation of class'es for the ins/.metion of teachers in all this work that is to be introduced.

'. 1611. Should all teacherB ·be made to attend'! -There would he no necessity for compulsion; they would he only too pleased to have the opportnnity if proper fltcilities were given. The teachers should not be put to much expense. Some of them might have to travel a considerable distance to attend these classes, !tnd I presllme thel'o would be 110 difficnlty in arranging with the Rail way Department to take them at a reduced rate.

1612. Would Dot their attendallcc n t these centres iutei'fere with the school teaching itself ?-That would depend upon the time at which I he Jessons were given. There would oe a difficulty if it were necessary, 'in order to get lids iustrnclioll, to up their Saturdays to the work, alt.hollgh there are very 111nny who wonld not considc!' that. " .

1613. Would you wish the illstrnctioils to be given in the ordinary working hours of the school?­No, I do not see how that con!d be possible at all.

1614. Yon think there would be a difficulty ill baving the instruction on Saturdays ?-Some little difficulty; it might be arranged to be given on some evening of the wcek-that would be more satisfactory, I think.

161.'5. Then there wonld be the difficulty of travelling ?-Yes, possibly. 1616. I understaml you tanght electrieity in the school as a science subject. ?-To it small extent;

I have not gone into tbe subject very deeply. 1617. To what classes have VOll taught it ?-To the 5th and 6th. 1618. What llil'i"ion8 d scie~1Ce won-lu yon COiJsitier most applicable to the sehools frolll an educa­

tional point of view ?-I cOllldnct give you the opinion of the nnion 011 that point. 1619. How much apparatus would yon require in teaching eleetrical science ?-Batteries sufficient

for the chlldren 10 have a thorough idea of what the electric Cllrrent is, nnd how it works, and so forth, and how electrici tv is stored. '

1620. 'What sort of experiment would you show them ?-Tllltt would depend upon the lessons. 1621. What wonld be the first lesson ?-One of the first lessons I should give them would be on

the workillg of such a thing as an electric bell. I sh01lld show them the battcI'y, explain how the current was formed in the battery, the channels throngh which it was cnrried, and so forth, and show how the bell was made to vibrate. As a matter of fact, I gaye such a lessou one day last week, !Iud I found that it,was received with very great pleasure by the children-so mucb so that they were afterwards discussing it ontside, and they bronght me on the following day 80me very nice essays as a reproduction of the lessoll.

Mr. Fink here entered the room, mlll touk the Chair.

1622. Do the children use the apparatus themsel ves 'I-They wonld be tanght to do so eventually. 1623. Do ,your children Ilse it ?:-No, not at present. 1624. What is the reason t.hey do Ilot,?-W e have had very little of the work so far. 1625. Is that the only reason ?-That is all. 1626. It is not for \Y~nt of apparatus ?-We have a fair mnount of apparatus; the children woulil

have to come to the front, and use the apparatus that the teacher has there. 1627. How do the teacher;; manage 'about the replilCement of the apparatus for science teaehing ?­

The invoices are kept of the qn!tntitie5 snpplied by the Depmtment at first, and the inspector is supposed

GOOl"gO H., Carter; , .8th August, 1899'.' 80'

at' eacli visi f to look fhrollgli tI'le jist. The: r(~l1cher i~ eX'pected' fo kepp t,hat, supply intacf, alld 1 suppose jf Il,nxtldng ShOllld be missing Ile would he called upon to replace, it.

HUS. Hnve yon raugllt chemistry at air ?--No~ , 629. Is not the replacement a very serious Inattel' ?-I do not kno\v. ,,,hat. t.lie' expericnce, 9f 6niers

may I'IIWtl been" lint I hav.e lind very little br'oken; J d.o noe remcmDer' miything in fhe scliool' apparatus being broken, with the exception of a pnnlp, fo!" some years; now; amY again Olle wi'll brelrk a test tUDe, hnt that is l1otliing; , , ' 1660. 'l'ime'hers'do uot feel it a tax at tlle pl'ese,llt tillie to hrove to replaee broken apparatus ?:.....

- I have not hear(l of ally one feeling it as a tax. f63T. Are you licq,naintedw.i th, any srfecial ~clellee I;enehi'ng~agi'icllnllrar or dai'l'yi:rig 8ciellcll" for

instalfce?-Ko, ' 1'632. The unioll lias 110, special opiniott, oli the mn:ttel' ?-l't. hris not been expres'sed' t.hat, I

kllo\V of. 1633. Would yon advoeate "lending special tea:cners to the Imiehers, rathei' than taking the t'eaehers

t6 centres ?-J gresume the t'eachers would: btLv\.' to be gatl\'el'ed iir centres;, otherwise, thet'e wourd' be too many experts l·eqlliied.

1634. Has the College course in scietll\e been be£ow the Teachers' Union. at a:U:""""as to' its scope ?:.....No.

1635. Has the ullion discnssed what it was considered desirable tellchers shouI'd' receive?'-Tlie matter l\a8 OIily be'en before fhe 1lt"I'iori dlli'i'ng (li'e' last week, and Hrere' naye been no' tesohi~i'ons passed as to what should be the scof!e of the wOl'k of the collegj3.

,l636. J gaiher that tl'le feachers wOllfd'. I1tei'er to see inore tfuill Olle hOlll' 11' week gi'ven to science wOI:k ?:........I do not know wilethcr that is the: opinion offlie teachers' generally; it j's IUY' O,"'ll opibion .. ,

f637. Out of, f;ay, 25 hours a weeK' devoted t,o teaeliing; how mallY hours wo'Irla) you y'oill'self'd'ev'ote' to the teaching of science ?,.- ff J ha!1 II perfectly' free halld I shonld like to ghe from an hour aud' fl' lll~lf to two hours to seientific education,

163S. Wh!1t: soia/lces \'Ironld JOu' reacl't '1'-1 do not lUlow t'liat I am· prepared; to say. 1639., Would yon include mat.heniaticaJ: sci'onee or ariChme'j ic in it r-To a certain extent I wonld~

1 think. ' , 16'40: 1 understand that lllOst of the dl'tnv.iug work i's of tlie nat.llrC' of freel\n.lId drawing 1-'1'here'

is geometrical drawing as ,veil; it: i's pre's'cribed' i'rl the reguJ'a,t.ious for eyery CHLSS. ,Where t.here is a' visiting" teacher, lIS a rule, the,visiting teaeher takes the freehand, and tlie .sfa:ffcen;cHers fake tHe gcomefricaP ~~. '

1641. Do the teachers as a body, pl'efer visiting t.eaehers for drawi'ng.? -Thli:ii is I'ather flo delicate question. to auswer-I do riot think I could answer that.

1642'., Wbich do you personally ?-All I can say is 'that n liave seen very excellElllt work d'one by the visiting ic'aehers.

1,643. They hav(~ special skill. and pmetiee in that Rarticnlar cla.ss of teacliing, \vl:iich' overcomes' any. difficulty i'n the ml~ft'el' of disei'plille ?""::,,rrliey have always the assistnilee of t:lie teachers in'the matter oJ discipline.

l6'44, Does draWl h::iv:e, snfficient ti'm'e given to ir?-Ai>'Iriueh as ti[tH, Be affordedl, l1udoubtedlY.

1'64.5. If yon bad [t hand how Illllch time woultl y'ou' give to (it'awing ?-,"Ve d\:!vote an liour and; a . half pel' wC13,k 'at p]',esent, lind we get, very good results: possibly another half-honr might be' adyantageous ;, in, faet, 1.al11 certain it WOlll'd~, if it eoulrl lje splll'ed;..Jint r doubt '\vhetner it' COHIll be spared.

, 1646. Hrnv mucl} attention is given to the ineelialricnJ finisl\. of the dl'o,"'ing '(-That depend~s' npon' the, teaeher-sorne gj ve a great deal more attention to it, t'!llIn ot.her~.

1647. I mean how do the teachers weigh tHc l'elat.ive imp,ortance of fi'eedom of' Hand arid" finish of lille,?-I do not kIlO\\',

t64S. Where, would yon eonimence. teacliilig freeHand' d'riLwing ill mY elementary school ?-=-Asearly, as possi\Sle ; it migl'tt oe in Lhe 3rd~ class, ot' possibl'y ill the 2hd' dass.

1649. AmI YOIl would t,each model drawillg, soon afterwards ?-Yes,.in tbe 4th class., 1650. Have y.ou of the Bl1bject: of d'rawing as: one that' might 00 modifi'erl' in its' require-

ments for different districts' 1651. In a mining district geometrie~1 dr[].~ving ig.imBortiirit, whereas iIi: au a'gricnitm'al'tlistrict the

freehand model. would.be far more imporfanf-Iiu ve, y:on thought of ally direction' in '" hien the syllabus might be'll1odifi'ed' to meet those conflic'ting l'eqJlil;ements 1-I do liot thi'l1k t'llat any opinion' has been expr,essed' with regal''' to that. I tlii'nk the,general oninioll oEtHe tea:chers is that as It rule" a great deaT more at'(elltion should be paid' to sClIle (tm\ving, and i'necliallical, dritwing tHan to fr!3ehand. We do not ,,,ant to make artist;; of all the )lllpils ; we want to teaeh them drawing tHat' will be usefitl to them' all' t'I.leil' live!!,.

f652·., Do you fi'nd any, diificult,x with tile pupil' teachers as regti,rds di'tlwin~'-either, in' instl'uetillg tne,m or in bringing them lip to the 81;andard'?-Tiiey seem to. Have coIisicU,i'able dilfii)lIlty in,masfering the present', course~" , , "

, 1653. What instme1;ioll.do they get, ?-They :ire tallglit by lilembers or the staff. Insoine schools tne liead' IIm~ter take~, it ;, in ot,hel'll some Hlember of die sfaff;, spechllly qualified, does'it. In my own scriooftlle first female assistant, is very,: highly, q~mlificfras3:n infll,rnetress in d'r:I'Wing, and she teaches t;!ie~ pupil teaehers. ,

1654. Have they a uifficu:ll,y, in, pRssillg: [heexll:millll>j,iolls ?~J,H some cases they have. [655. Ha:\,'e they nny instrllct,joll in yoUI' school in black-I,oanl drawing ?-They; all have to

pmct.i8e it themselves ill teacning their ciflsses. J do not kllo\v that they ge~ ally. special instruction in it,. 1656. There is 110 examillatiolHeqflirement on, the suojeet ?-N'o. -1657. Is tli'tt the l'caSOll why tlioy no instrnetioll 7-I expect' it' i's. L65S. Do yon think you cOlllc! mise the standard' of. the higher classps 1-I think llot:_ TllC'general

opinion is that if they are sellt out [,rom our sehools.syst(,lllatically insthwt'czi'. up to tIic present lirogrannne of the 6th class that is all tllat can be expected in.il primary: school.

1659, Even. if. tlie feiwliers were better lllstl'llcted themsel'ves ?'-Tlie Rreserit'p:rogia,nme' is a~ Illuch as the children can master.

: ,I, ~ • ., j'.!~"!(J::!.;"~\ii,:/~

.. George H. Ca.rter. '8th August, 1899.

. 1660. You do not think that if the teachers hacl more skill they could teach better ?-They could, undoubtedly, teach more easily. .

1661. By ~o/Ir. Poolmall.-You said that. in certain cases you recommendell a certam courae to the inspector-have any steps been t.akcn to give effect to your views in those cases ?-1 do not know that I call recall an instance just now, but I think it is quite likely that such has been the case.

1662. Can you not say whether your views are shelved 01' given effect to in auy way?-1 cannot say.

1663. Havc lhe teachers any mcans, eithcr illdividuallyor collectively, of placing their vi~ws on record, so that in the event of the teacher. feeling that a certain course should be pmsued" nnd thl? Inspec­tors llOt taking up that view, the onus of the refllSltl "hould lie with the inspectors ?-The teachers can place their "iews beforc the Dcpartmcnt througb tbe union at any time, and, as n mattcr of fltct" they do so evel'y year 'ltftpy the annual conference.

1664. By the Chailrma;n.-Wbat is the object of teaching mechanical drawing in the primary schools? -For the education of the general intelligence and the training of the hand.

1665. Is it not for that object that freehand drawing is part of the training of the youth ?-1 think the idea of the union was more partieularly with regard to the. uppcr classes-say, from the 4th upwltrus, that scale dmwing and mechanical drawing would be of more service'to tile child. •

1666. Wh~t is your idea of the pltrt that drawing in primary school;; will play in education ?-Not to form the basis of Itny particular trade, certainly. '

1667. You think it would be well to systc111atize and pcrfect the tmining of teachers in the matter of drawing generally?-Yes.

1668. And you think there il:l a good deal to be done in thut direction ?-Yes. 1669. Do you think it wonld be desirable to introduce Kindergarten methods into the schools?-

Yes, to It certain extent. . 1670. And the hand and eye traIning and manual training idlo the higher classes ?-Yes. 1671. Have you considered what Itlteratiolls should be made in the present programme to allow of

these changes ?-We considcr the progmmnie would havc to be curtailed very much. 16i2. They would have to be changes and 110t additions ?-Ycs. • .1673. What alterations wonld you make in the present work ?-That is It matter t.hat would require

It very great deal of considcration, because the I;uhjects fire all or great importance, but there Itre a few that might be curtailed-grammltr, for instance. It is the opinion of the union that we have to spcnd' It grcat deal too mnch time on the difficulties of syntax in the 5th and, 6th classes.

]674. By Dr. ftlacFarland.-Would you recommend' any curtailplent of grammar below tl}e Ijth claHs ?-I do not know that there is much necessity for it below the 5th. The .5th and 6th ciltsses have to spend It great deal of time over difficnlties that grnmmarhins themselves are not decided 011. The granlmar below the 5th is not very difficult, but we'would suggest that, perhaps, thel'c might be changel in the mode of examining in grammltr. . . "

1675. By the Chairman.-How long would you give to this new work thltt you recommend ?-Two hours a week, I think.· '

1676. Could you curtail the existing couI:.se by'two hours ?-We might poesibly, but we hltve not gone iuto detail; we hnve considered the matter as a whole.

1677. Are you slttisfied generally that you can get dic two hours ?-1 think ,ve can. 1678. Previolls witnesses have indicated that changes might be made in geography, elementary

ann,lysi~, history, null gmmmar in the younger classes, and that English should really be taught by reading, writiQg, and composition, with not, so much formal' grammar?-Yes, I qnite agree with that.

,1679. You think the two hours might be found in that way?-Yes. 1680. Is there a COllsensus of opinion in your union to that effect ?-Yes. 1681. Do YOll thill.k the changes would add to the mental vigour or alertness of the pupils 7-1 thiJik

the changes would be beneficial if sufficieut. relief could be given-if the changes did not necessitate extra burdens being placed upon the children. - ,

16\32. Do you thilik the different work would in itsclf be an extra burden or a better conrse ?­I thiuk it~"ould be the better course. The unioll ~tlBO suggests that, as the alteration of the programme is a matter that would necessitltte very grave consideration, it should be done by a body capable of considering it from ~very point of view.

1683. Do you think the teltchers should llltVe a voice: in tll1tt ?-Yes, the union suggests that it should be done by a board consisting of the inspectors and 1t1l equalllumber of teachers, Itnd representativcs of the University, and others not connected with education, represcnting the public.

1684. The teachers are quite prepared to tltke thcir ilbure of responsibility in the matter,?-Yes. 1685. Do you t,hiuk much wonhl be gained by,the circulation of circulars fr0111 the Department and

the encouragement of teachers to adl1t'ess Ihc Department pcriodically ?-1 scarcely think so. 1686. Have the teacher'S' conferences any' official standing, or nre they held by the grace of tbe

Minister ?-They have been held annually. / ' 1687 HolY do you represent YOUl'views to the Department ?-Whate'-er is decided on at the anlllmi

conferencc is brought before the Department,as soon as possible afterwards. 1688. How is it done ?-Sometimes by letter, but ll~nally by deputation to the Minister Ot· Secretary.

Certain matters are considered by the SeCl'9tary, ahd othcr matters that he does not feel he shonld give a reply to are taken on to the Minister.

1689. Would it be a good thing for the tcltchers if ,they had the responsibility, once or twice II year, of f~l'lIIulatillg their views upon·the working of the schools, aOlI!ls to the desirability of roforms or change:> ; WOll ld the teltChers approve of that, and make good 'nsc of the opportnnity ? - Yes, I think 80. '

J 690. Would your Teachers' Union, IlS II whole, desire to be put in thnt position 7-1 think S0.

1691. Do you think it would improve the educational system ?-Yes.

1'1/,1) witness witlulr8W.

Francis Henry Reullick, M.A., sworn and examined. 1692. By'the Cltavr"".atb . ......:To what school are yon attltched ?-Rathdown.street, Carlton. 1693. Is thltt a 1st class school ?-Yes. . . '

57031

The Library, Parliament of VicforlBl

Fr"ncia H~Rennick, 8th August, 1899.

1694. You are also sec;et!'ll'Y of the Victorian Teachers' Union?-Yes; I have been delegated by the nnion to gi\'c evidence.

1695:, Do YOll approve of the intrdchictioll of Kimlcrgarten methods iuto illfaiu· teaching ?-We are iIi favour of a limited amontlL of Kindcrgarten in theJarger schoo's.

1696. What do yon Iltltlel'stnnd by IGlHlergartcll ?-The training of the yonnger children to snch hand and eye work as is nsually indicated in the books 011 Kindergarten-paper folding, mat m(lking, and so, on. We take Kindergarten to mean a spt>cinl kill,l of tcaching, tlealing with speeific kinds of ,things; we do not'reeognisc it as generally applicable to all the lJranches of iufant teaching.

1697. Do 'Yon not recognise it as n principlo of teachillg ?-H applies to ouly Ol1e sectioll of our iufant teaching. We are in fal'onr of a limitcd amount of Kindergarten teaching to infants iu schools ,\'ith nn nverage attendance of 100. We thin'k it can be It)!plied to snch schools with tbe effect, because tbeyhave a lnrger llllmher of teachers tlian there arc in the small schools. It is a suhject,~,t,hat requires special teaching power, because the teather has to go round ami show each individual child how to do the worle In It small school the teacher canllot go round all his cl[Js~es llS satisfactorily as in' '1\ school where one teacher has one class; that is why we think it shol1ld be limited to schools with large infant classes. ,

1698. "Haye you considered the question wheLher all infant teaching should not be based upon Kindergarten methods and principlcs '?-'Ve have rest,ricted ourselves to the q1lestion of Kindergarten as specifically applied to rhe specific subjects mentioned in such' a progmmme 1\8 has. been recently issued by ,the Department. . .

. 160D. Leaving that circnlar out. of consideration, and aS8lHuing yOlt are not bound by it, mm you gi\'e us your views on the slliJject of Kindergarten generally ?-We think that Kindergmten methods are decidedly both llsAul antl.etlucati\·e in infant tl'llining; Ollr difficulty is as to extending it because of tl1e sl,lOrtness of ollr staff. That is the feeling of tbe union.

1700. It requires more individual attention to carry it out in its entirety ?-Yes. 1701. Kot\\'itlistandillg that, wonld you apply the principle to infant teaching as far a.s yon could

under present conditiQu,s 7-1 think .... e do. The. Kindergarten pl'inciple has oxtended vcry largely since the Depal'tmeut made !t movement in that direction some years ago. .

, 1702. That movement was checkcd by the withdl'::lI'ial of the instrnctor ?-Yes, by the withdrawal of the ill8trnct,or and the appliention of tlte retrenchment policy. ' , .

1103. You would welcomc the appointmcnt of ari instructor and organiz;er ?-'Ve are quite ill favolH' of the illtrodnction of Kindergarten into Olli' schools again. .

1704. Have yon considerell the ,qnestion' of ~pecial infant' mistresses, always regarding them as heing 11 ader the head teacher? - Yes,' we considcred that 'where ten,chers showed special aptitude for Kindergarten teaching Lhey should be allowed to perfect themsel ves under competent instrnctors. We quite appro\'ed of thc idecL lif having compct~nt instrllctors who should help those who were fairly efficient.at present, and bring 011- those who were inaf't. ' .

]705. lhve YOI1 allY idea of the cost of hitl:odllcing the system ?-We could not form any opinioll os to t1m!,. 'Wben the Kindergarten system wa;; int.roduced the Depart.ment sent out a eertain amount of Kindergarten material. That, I ul1(lerstalld, rail into n considerable amonnt of money for each school slipplicll, but I do Hot know the exact amollllt. ; ,

1706. When ollee a school is equipped I suppose the cost of maintcnance wonld not be very ? --Y cs; the stock exhahst3 itself mpidly with so lllm'lY children, aull t.he cost of maintelHU1ce is

considerable. -1707. Is that cost thrown lin the Departmeu t ?-:rt" has hitherto been borne by the Dcpartment. 1708. Are yon in a position to say, how much it costs 'foJ' a-big school '?-1 cannot say exactly. 1709. 'Vhat are your views as to the training of teacilcl:sin Kindergarten ?-W e approve of teachcrs

beiilg trained; teachers who hal'e chnrge oj' infant 'elasses sholll~l be trained to tench the Kindergarten methQds. . ' " .

1710 .. How 'iI-onld you give that training?- We wonld. like sp!,cial instrnctors to' be providcd for t.hat \york, becauae it is ri, subject that reqilin;s speci.al knowledge to Cleal with'it satisfactorily. ~ The teachers would takc ~orne time to work it up, and withont special instructors they wOlllel be feeling aboilt in th(j da!'k to a grcat extent, iil1d 1t is desirable that that SllOltJd be'avoided in the int€irests of the scholars.' ' .., . "

1711. You could make a beginning witho'ntspeciar instructors, but it would be' better to have speeial instructors, 50 as to proceed 'on- mfe and sound .lilies ?....:... Yes.

17l2. Doyon think a teacher C9i1ld a tborongb gmsp of the principles from Looks alol}e 1713. Is' thnt the view of the union I think so. 1714. What is yoUl' view as to hand and tl'ain'ing ItS a liIik between the Kiulle,rgarten in the

lower and the mamlal training in the llprier cla~ses J,cllchcl'S are not quite clear as to what distinction· h3 inade bet.ween hand and eye and mannal t:raiuing. I 'think the tone of the discussion was that we have nt'present a certain amouut of' bund 'and eye training in the schools in the shape of the dmwing that is timght--the meaSlm'.ment of lines, the rel~tiye measllreinent of the fol'rt's that they dmw, and BO on.

1715. Has IIOC freehand drawing more tendency to develop hitlld and eye training tlian mechanical dmwing ?-Frcehand drriwillg is a matter of hand and eyc the same as mechanical drawing. 'Ve cOl1sidcretl that there WRS a certain amount of hand and. ,eye traini.ng ill. cOll11cxion {vith drawing, and what some desired to have a clear comprehc)1lsion of was what particular form of hand and eye trainillg \vas intended to be en'coimiged, apart from thc' present' training.

1716. Han) yon any views, as a ,union, as to the scope of huml and e)'e training, taking the bfthat to I:,e tile meanill~ atbclled. t'o it in general education111 circles, or is it something foreign to the

staff l}S 1\ whole ?-Tci a great extent it is foreign. They have had ito grent experience except ill tbe of a feiy specialists who ha"e done some huild and eye training as a hobby; the great body of teachers have very little acquaintance with the,snbjeet ..

Ii 17. As educationalists YOll are sati;,;fied th!tt hand lind eye trlli~ing and mannal t~ail1ing are very desirablo reforms to int.roduce iuto the'cdncati·onnl system ?-Yes.

1718. But as n body you are not sufficiently acquaiuted ,vith tbedetails of the systen1 to be nlJle to carry it out yourselves withont further organiz!Llion and instruction ?..;..,Exactly.

83 Francis H. Renniek, 8th August, 1899.

1 t19. And yon thillk it is essential yon should sneh instruction before the work can be thoroug~lly carried ont ?-Bcfore it can bc n.tlernpted with any snreess.

1720. Do YOU tLillk there 11l'G it sllfficiEHit 1l1lmLer of men il.!llong the teachers who llnderstanlj the spirit of the instr;lct:on required to illtroduce it gellerally withont systematic organizers and systematic orgrmizatioll ?-No opinion' wa~ expressell as to the qnalificatiolls or the oHicers who drew up this pro­gramme. There was only olle gentlemall who had allY IOl<lwledge of the subject among all onr delegates.

1721. Do vou afTreo wit.h the last witness as to the alterations that would be necessary in the programme in orc\~r to i~troduee these new subjeel.s ?-.I thillk his e\'idence was fnidy represent,atire of the views of the uuien. Tl:e union desires t.hat cC'lllres Hhonlli he esbblished to enable t.ile teachers to get proper instrnction in these snbjects, ill. view of their lack of it at present..

1722. By 1I'b·. Lang.-The material used by the children is made up into articles whieh the children take away wit.h them; should that materia,] be bought by the parents, as their copy-boDks are bought now? -'l'he parents might be got to blly the material the snme ns they do the copy-~ooks if they epnsidere(l tI,e object was of usuiJicielltly usefnl nature.

1723. Parents have now to pl'odde the girls with cOl'tain matcri~tls for sewing; it wonld be 'exactly parallel with that ?-We haYe 1I0t considereLI the qnestion us a union.

1724. By ilfr. Poulman.-Do not the parents ycry often p[jrcha~e the finished arLicle ?-N"ot in Onr schools. I have seen some of the work 'done in the schools in Sonth Aqstraliu, aud I am quite SlItisfied that if we had the time and the com'eu:ence we conltl do work of the s~me natnre, and I think of the same quali ty in process of t,i me.

1725. By 1111'. Long.-Diu Jon make allY inqniries nB to whether the children there bonght tue material to. he worked up, or it was :;npplied hy the Deplll'tment ?-Thc Depal'tmellt supplied some of the material, aUtI some the children brought. 1:)uch mat.erial a~ wood, which is ayailable everywherc, the children hrought their 'money for, nud lhe teachel' provided it from some neighbouring carpenter or workshop; IJllt snch material as elay, whieh wns not available in all distriets, the Department pro\'ided, free of cost, except the carriage.

Tlte w'itness withdrew.

James Charles Bartlett, sworn and examined.

1726. lJy the Clwirman.-What school are yon in elllll'ge of? -,-Thc Armadale and 'I'oorak schools. 1727. Do you npproye of the idea of systematizing these tenehers' conferences, r.Illl giving them

an ollieia) position in Ihe educational &j'stern ?-Most certainly; it i~ a thing tlmt \Ye lmve be.ell striving for for years. The teachen of the colony cOllsirler that, in any cLJange in the cnrric:ulum !)f the schoob oi' in auyt.bing affeetiug examination8 (matters on which some of them are yery competent to form all opinion) the views of tlwir nllion should ba\'e some weight.

172fl. You have heard the evi,lence as to infusing Kindcrgarten mcthods into the schools, and the objeet of hnnd an,l eye and manllal t.raining we bave considered the .matter to a limited extent, but these things are new, so there has not been vcry mlleb discllssioll. •

1729. Generally you approve or the proposed departnre ?-We approye of the departure to It

limited extent; oay two honr~ 11 \\'cok, pl'oyideJ that, the already overcrowded cmricululll is not more overcrowded by tbe:oe thingi'.

1 i 30. W oult! thnt',involve any al teration in the system of payment by results? -It is called the system of payment by' results, tlllt tlmt is u misnomer. There is llO pllyment to teachers ill this colony a~ the result of their work-that is, to a teacher as the rcsnlt of his iudividnal work. It may be possible in a school with ollly one teacher, but in schools with seventl teachers, as a rule, payment is given to some as the result of the work of others. In my schools thm:e are a head master, six assistants, ~oventeen Pllpil teachers, and four monitors. Out of IIll those teachers there are seven, a portion of whm:e salaries will depend llpon the results, and there arc 21 ",hoHc salaries will not depend to the ext.ellt of a fl1l'thing upon the results. The salaries of those seven tellc,hers must depend. in a great measlIl'e IIpon the Pesult of the work done by the 21, so in 11 large school payment by results to the head teacher and the assistuuts is 1I0t

payment on their work, bnt must depend to It large extent upon the work of olbcrs. Even if YOll tnke It

school Wilh ouly olle teacher, that teacher is not pllid on !I.J.C result of his ,york. It is ditlicllit to asscss hGW Illuch a teacher has worked iu teachill~ It child. If you ha\'e a class of ehiltlren YOll will find that a cortain nnmber of them will readily tltke in the informat.ion YOII give them, but there will he ot-henl for whom JOu will go over I.hltt information ten or twenty tiines, and yet it docs not find It restillg vIaee in their memories; but throngh those children, with whom Jon have striven considel'nbly harder Ihltn with the smart ones, you may lose n portion of your slIlnry, cCriainly not for not, doing tho work, because you 11&VC worked harder than with the successful ones, It is almost impossible to estjmate by examinlttion thc value of the work done by an indivi,hlal teacher.

1731. What isthe effcct of this ~ystelll'oll the teaehing?·-It seems to u~ to limit the field of work that we have, and it mnkes OllT werk meclwlliclll to It very great extent. It represses the. individuality of the cbild, and it seems to bring all the c11il(lren to onQ deal] level, as if they were all turned out of one mould. For example, t.he brighter childrell will very soon get to the limit of their clas~, uut tlley are taken no further, becanse it. docs not lllatter bow mueh fmtller they are taken the teacher will receive no credit, nnd.all the work and energy is expended ill drawing the weaker Olles lip to that level in order to secure the pass.

1732. If thnt system were departed from would the wcaker ones suffer ?-I do not know that they wOIlld-in fact, at the present time, 1.de uetfllncy the weaker children hltve a pleasant time in the schools ltS a rule. It seems that they are ovel'driyen to bring tbem up to a level that they are not sufficiently endowed by PJ'ovidence to reach at that age. .

1733. It makes the duller ones the snbject of" cram," and the others the subject of repre~sioll 7-To a certain extent it does., .

1734. Is the system of payment by results connected with the method of inspection nlld examina­tion ?-Yes, our method of examination ill.tensines the evils of the result system. As far liS wc can see, the object of 'the examination is. not t@ filili out wiJat the ciIildniu know, but to find out wha.t they ean be failed in, and what they do not know. 1·'01' example, take all examination in parsing in the 4th elass -the

G 2

,lames C. llirtlett. 8th August, 1800.

!

84

childrcn may have 40 words given them to tell the parI" of speech, allu if they do 38 words right amI two 'vords wrong they will fail, and as fHr ris the tendler's ~alary is concerneu, for that ?ne snbjoct...:...it wOlilu be the same as if be had not tanght, them one word of gramll1!\1' fo1' Ihe preceding twelve months. The thirty­eight fortieths they pa~sin is ignored; and the two-fortioths [,hoy fail ill euts them out of the exalllinalioll, and the same thing applies to HlHUY other subjects. • . 1735. What shonld be (lone ,vith the sY6tcm of payment by rewlt,s ?--'-I sholiid like to see it modified ont of existence, as has been donein every oivilized country except, Victorino ' ,

1736. Is that the view that l. large n'umber of tho members of your union hold ?-I think 95 pel' cent. would YO.te for its nbolitioil um],.r auy circumstances. ' The other 5 per cent. are almost as !lIllch opposed to it as ,,,e are; but they say-" W hat will we have ill its place?" There bas never been a ch:mge that the teachers have not suffered from, aud they wOllld Eooner Lear the ills they have thau fly to oHlers they'lmow not of. . "

. 1·737,. If the result system were abolished how would you have thc educational work tested '?--: I think we could not do bettcr than adopt the system in vogue in England. SiI' Evelyn Oakley was here a 8110rt time ago, and glne a lecture, and there were on.e or two poiuts in it that, 1 think, wonhl meet aliI' cnsc.· He said they had-tbe result system in Englalld, and they grauually modified it until nt last thc ,vise strong man arose who abolished' it, altogether. They fiud that in 90 pel' cent. of their sehools an examina­tioll'is 110t neeessary; thc nUllJber of tcachers who am capable and trustworthy is increasing, uIld tbey can rely npon the teaehers to eX:jmine their'owll children and carry out the work effectively.

1738. The inspection is done by Government vfficials 7--Yl's. ' 1739. But the schools are not Go,'ernment schools ?-No, they arc under boards, 1740;, \Vould that, in your opinion, Il1l1ke IlIiy difference in the mo~le of cxaminiltioll-they are under

local authority, awl I umlerstaud that whether the local authority participates ill the Government grant or not depellds UpOl! the result of the sl'hool worl(, us tested by the Hew examining mClhot1s?-Yes, that is so.

1741. Thcreforc the local'authori If hr.s a direct interest in stimulati ng tlie teacheI:s, and seeing that !hey do their work efficienUy, so as to comply with the inspeetor.'s or examiner's standard. That is different from our'system of purely Government schpol~, which will be· maintained by the Government in any event ?-Yes. .

1742. Would that make allY difference :.15 to t,he probable result of tlJC system iu produciug good work ?-I do not see how it ,,;oult1; Ipresullle those local Ruthorit,ie8 ha\'e certain powers over the teachers, either to uismiss t,hem or otherwise.

1743. The-school belongH to t.he church or to the locality, ami they want the Government mon!"y t9 C!tITy it on; here the Goverumeut pny the teachers and m!lllltaiu the school in allY event. Would the n.bsellce of the local anthority, a1l(1 the IllOTe inspection and local report all the teacllers, be sufficient to produce the same educational value without payment by results as its abolition, has lludoubtedly produced ill England ?-l think 80 ; I do not think the mere fact of a certain amol1Il't 'going into the saiary has any­thing to do with I,he et!iciency of the schools. There is a certain amoullt of rivalry among the schools that makes the tenchers ill ench try to get the highest percentage. If It ie'adler has an avemge of 95 per cent., and he getil an additiOlml 1 per cent., it would only mean Ihe addition of a very few shillings to his salary, ami J do not think t,hat would inlluce him to take nil the trouble he does tnke to get the higher per­centage. There are 21 I;eacilel's in my school who:oe salaries do Hot depend .upon the res.nIts, amI I will gnarnntcc that lhose 21 work as hard as the seven whose mlmies are affecicd~

1744. Do you think the liighest result;; nro arrivcu at, in those schools where there is me'chanical teaching ?-There must be a certain amount of mechanical teaching or you will not get good results.

1745. Supposing payment by results were nbolished, would there be any danger 1.0 the teachers of having their salaries lessened ?-That will depend upon how the salaries are fixed. We would expect fixed salaries, and if t,hose salaries are fixed'lower tlmn the salnries we are now recei viug it will mean a loss to the teachers. . ~.

17·16. \Vhat is the difference between the increment which c<!llstitutes the result payment. and it;'] ordillary teacher's remuneration ?-A man with a fixed salary of £200 a year can earu another £100 a year if he gets 100 per cent.; jf he only gets 80 pCI' cent. he would only get fin additional £150. '

1747. Assuming tliis result syslem Ims flU these ddects' ill relation to the present litemry teaching, would it be practicflble,to apply it to the new syst.em of manu:il training and hand and eye training?­I think neurly Hll, the argnments that we urge against the result sptem would llpply 10 a large extent to the !lew mbjects ill I he curriculum., They wonld not apply to the full exteqt; because if a person is trained to cerlnin occllpatiou,S in wood or iron you can see the work done and .assess tbe' vnlue.

,1748. It could not be done Dnder the eye of the inspector 01' examiner ?-No,but you conldseethe actual result of the work. "

1749. You could'show hlm that in rclation to arithmetic or suience ?-You eould show himcert.ain things done on paper, no donbt.. .

1750. You are ,quite ~a.tisfied there woitld'be ample means or detecting bad anu inefficient teaching without the system of paYlnent by results?-Yes.

1751. Have you copsidered the qnestion of abolisllillg examinations aild confining the test to mere inspection 1-1 would abolfsh all examinatiolis in schools taught by men who have for.severul years proved their ability and trnstwortltiness,.,aJl(J, I would let those tcaebers w lIo lUld not done so come \'i-ithin the exempt cLl'cle 'as soonns they had w9rke[1 for a sufficient time: to sat,isfy the inspeetor that they were to be trusted. '

" 1752. Hare you anything to say about pupil teach<:lrI5 :llId monitors in relation to this new work 1-We m,nintain that the staff in the schools is Ilot su'tficieilt to carry out the present work; thnt the schools fire under-staffed. Lthink I ~trn safe in saying that our SCllOOls are st!dtedlower than the schools of !lny other Englisll-spel1king community. Speakillg more espeeildly. of Lhe large schools, it is seldom that a man has, his' proper school st,aff; if tbere are any absent for a time through illness there are none to take their plnces, so we have to do without, or take a child from the 6th class and put tliatcbild in the position of the trained teaeher who is a way. ,

1753. Is that a com'mon ocenrrence?-lt is,the actual state of 'things, 1 think, in'most of the large schools, that they are seldom with, the fulhitaff: .

J:llnes'C, D:1rtle'tt. 8tJl A llgust, 1899.

17 54. Is the work commonly as~isted by pupib? - Yes. Then thero iB n Imhit in the Department of laking our first-class pupil teachers and sending tholl Oil relieving duty; that they go to some small school up the conntry and act as head of that school fOI' a time; tlwn they come hade to the cehool again. You 'Nill llnderiitl\nU thl\t a pupil teaeher who has becn first class for some time is of considerable service to lIS; she is compotent to take cha.rge, or is, perhaps, on the verge of hein;; promoto(l to an as,is '. tantship. I hrwe lmown complaints brought to tIle union of threC', foul', five, and seven at!l time heing away. On Sl\turflay one geut,loman told us that he hat! eight chiluren ont of the 6t h claEs taking the places of eight absent teachers at thc present time.

1755. 1s that It SOlirce of economy and profit to the Department ?-It is thc calise of great expe·nili-ture to the teaehE'rs. .

.1756. Have yon heard of ::tny school being left without ::tny teacher in at all ?-1 have not had a caso of that. sort h!'Ought 'nnder my notice. '

17.37. Have yon anything to say as to altering the examination of pup:l teachers ?--The curriculum for the e.mmination or pupil teachers has ueen considerably extended of hte. Tlw Teachers' Union werc asked to draw l:p a scheme for the cxaminatiol1,

1 i 58. How often do the union meet ?-About ollce a month; there are full llleE'tillgs qnarterly,' and once' a month the town lllcmbei's llJeet. We were I'eqlle:lte(l to draw up a list of sllhject~ the pupil teachersshoulcl pass iI(, al(d we inti Olluced cerlain nel\' sllujects into that currieulum-euclid, algebra, and Latin. We consider. that a.t the presen t. tirne Ollt' pnpil teachers are overworketl,-,-~tlley are apprentiees receiving the salnry of apprel1tices~and a small- salnry it is in some easefl~and we do not consider that those apprentices should he called Oil to (10 wilat. may Le termed jOlll'lleymen's work. They are tahing classes of' 50 alld 60, an!] in some cases 70 pupils. We cOJl~ider that t.aking iuto consideration the barassing nature of their dnties, the. fact that they lllUst receive' an hour and H quarter's illstrnctiou pCI' (lay outside of school hOlHS, and that the pri vate work they have to (10 at night takes another two or three hours, the tax on them is too mnch even with the old curriculum, and if t.heyare tobz called IIpon to .!lmlergo examinatiou in extra subjects, relief must, be given ill the present. subjects, or sume cOllcession made to meet the llew work A little rclief h::ts Lcen givcn t.o them, but uot to any great extent-nothi;lg to the extent Qf the lIew work imposed in the new cnrriculum. We laid our views before the Department, and' we 'were tola it was intended to give the pupil teach(,l's extm remuneration if they pas,;ed the examina­tion in those extra snbjects. So far that was satisfactoi'Y, Lilt at,the same time 'we cOlls:dercd the work too much to be accomplished, and we only rccommended the adoption of this progmmme on t\\'o conditionf'<, olle thltt the extra salary in each case should he given, and also tlmt cOllsidering the strain was alrea(ly too great" pllpll teachers shOllla he allowed to ue off dut,y a eertail! tillle for private stndy-we suggested two half-dltYs in the week. ,

1759. Do YOllcollsider the schools are ullder-staffed in having an excessive .11111nuer oE pupil teachers, nnt! a deficient number of assistants ?-Ye~, we.eonsider theI'tJ'is too much unskilled labollr in proportion to the skilled labour. If it' were a t.rades organization we would have the Trades Hall down on us to-morrow; our idea is that \\'e should go back to the scale we had tt few years ago, that is; one assistant and one pupil teacher for every 100 pupils after the I1rst .50-that waS under Aet No. 1133. vVe have no ohJection to the present lllonitors being nffiliated 011 to that system; under the pr'esent system we are allowed fom monitors up tQ un average of 900, and as those monitors are eomlllg on, and getting ready to he pupil teachers, a little pmctice before they nre flchhiHed to he pupil teachers woultl be beneficial, so the lllollitors could remain. , 1760. If the Training College were re opened find Te-organized the pupil teuehers would get part

of their training there ?~Only a limited number. I believe the idea is to hold competitive examiIHI~iolJs of those pupil teachers each y.ear who wish to euler the training school-if the school woulll only hold 50 there would ue n great number of those who passed who eonld lIOt get in.

1761. What is yonr opiuion of t.he amalgamation of schools, and its effect on teaching 11l1d school work ?-Tlle teachers of the colony are opposed to the ttlllalgamatioll of schools, but we all understand it was d011e in the interests of economy. The supervision in amalgamated schools canllot be equal in any degree'to what it is where tHe llend master has only One sehool t9 look after. In my case r have tll'O schools, one an average of 500 and allot,her of 600; they are three-quarters of a mile apart" amI the reguiati011S provide that I am to exefeise proper snpel'visio'll over the one I am absent fro111, and ~ometimes I find a difficulty in doing it. .

1762. What is the aelU!),1 effecL on teaebillg ?-1 (10 ,!lot thi!lk the. elMS teaching eall be affected very much. I hll\'c a certain numher of dusses in one hnihling, ant! It certain IHlluber iu the other, awl as, the c\nsses are imh"'pendent, of ench oj her it would not mnttt'r if they were next door or a lnilc apart, but the supervision cannot he so good. Another thing is fhe personal influence of the heat! teacher should bo felt by every child ili the 8ehool, I1l1d wher~ the schools are so far apart, the personal influence of the teacher mllst be weakened to a great extent; it destroys effective supervision. .

1763. Ha\'e yon anythillg to say I1bout optiollal subjeds ?~ We see no reaSDn why Dptiolll11 subjects should be introdnced herr. I understand that at·home certain ~Hhjects are paid for under examination, and certain money goes to the boards· to carry em the educntion of tbe 'dist,rict, Lut our circumstances Ilere arc so different that optional _ cannot, apply us they ~lo .i,n England.,

1764. One witness said we might make geography aml history optional, so as to make room for the !lew-work 7-I lInderstllnd thai, H doe; not mean optionail'llhjeets 'ill the same way as t.hey have them in England, bnt mert'Jy whether alternatiye subjects might be taken in different. sc\wols-that one school might drop geography, and another, another subject. I do not tbink that would be a good thing'-I do not see wby the children in Olle part of t.he colony should llave olle part of their education neglected at the option of the tea,cher, !lnd another part of the colony should have allother part ne~lected.

1765: By Dr. lliac]i'anand.-As 11 practical teacher, you would not say tl;at one' teacher could get more educatIOnal value ont of grammar than another could get out of geography ?-I would not like to say that; as a tencher I would not fancy that for a momept. It is not what a teacher !lan get ont., but wlmt will ue for the benefit of tll.e children. The loss of one subject wonld be more t.hnn a child would get out of an addit,ional suu~ect handled by a differeut expert-suppose he got more grammar from one nmn than :mother, I do not thlllk that wonld compensate for the, total loss of geography.

J "'Illes C. Burtlett, 8th August, 1890. 86

1766. BV the Chairman.-In a countr.y uistriet might yon not leave ont history, and substitut.e with ad vanlage t.hc sciellce ll1Jtlel'lying the illdu~lry of the lo(:ali t.y ?-Yes, I [1m in favour of history being largely cnrtailed, especially tho patts G(ZO or 8.00 years ago. The geneml outlines may be taken, and we. call get into more th,tail whell we COBlO down to more IDodt'l'II times.

. . 1767. H:lYe you ahy other points that you would lil{e to gi\'e evidence about ?~A8 to the amalga-. mated schools we oonsider, if I.he is to oontinue, SOID(3 allowance might be made to t,hose who have additional re~pollsibility and burdens thrown lIpon them.

1768, Looking at the questioll from Ull educational point of view, you do not t.hiuk the amalgamation is a good system ?-No, I wonlu like to see it abolished to-morrow. As to the abolition of the result system, onr opinion is thnt we should not be trea,ted differently from any other branch of the service. It seems as if a stigma were attached to thc teaehers of the co]?ny, when they are paid on the result of·their work, as if no good' work ,woulu be done unless the payment were l1:atle dependent UI)OIl it. - The examip.ation is conducted to the 1,0001h point; we not only go 011 the 100 per ceut., !'ut on the decimal point pass, which brings it to 1,OOOths, so that. it, is to the I,OOOth that my school WOllIl1 be estimated against any other s.ohool ill the colony-I submit that no man in the world ClllI estimate the work done by a teacher witb such eXI,ctitude as that.

1769. Yon think it iH a ridiculous system ?-Yes, it is an at.tempt at the impossible. With reference to and what might take plaee if this system were abolished, the teachers t.hink they should be paid their fnIl salaries. .

1770. That they shonld get what they were \Yorth?-Yes, tlmt ll, man should receive his full salary. If YOll take any other uranclt of the in which a Jll1111 fairly !lud honest!y does his duty, there is no deduction made, but there is one at 0111' pel'eentage examinlltiop for circumst.ances oyer which we have no controL . '

Iii!. Are you satisfied that your efficieney to (lol he work CUll be test ell without the result system? -Yes.

1772. By proper methods o'f inspection ?-Yes. 1773. WOllhl not that involve that all the sciellce.worl~ shOll],] be tesred hy people who untlerstooll

the spirit of science teaching ?~It is impoesible for anyone to discover what a class knows by two or three questions. ~

1 That is the way in which it "is done ?-Tllllt is the way in which the pel'centage is worked up.

1775. The whole of the te11(·her'8 work in the science class mny be tested in that way ?-Yes, that is the test, uut we consider the test altogether insufficie!lt. Any 0110 wanting to examine a class, should take the class and give quostiOllS all ronnd ; jll!lge tho class as a whole, and not say to the teacher, uecause a child fails to answer a question, that he hus not taught the ehild lLllylhing during the whole twelvo months.' ~

1776. That wOlll(j il!'vol ve It real Ii ~e iI,spection ?- Yes, and it w'ould Involve more inspoctors; onr inspectors are as much overworked as' the teaehf·rs. •

)777. By 1~11'. Lon.g . ....:.. YOll said I ho union 'yonld accept the old staffing of the schools; how many }lnpil teachers were there nuder that system ?--There was a pupil tcacher to every assistant; they ran in oj tern a tc fifties.

1 iiB. Woultl that permit of the pupil toachcrs being withdrawn in turn for two half-days a week for this special illstruction that 1V0ul'] be necessary ?~I would not like to go to that extellt. Thel'o is a grea~ deal more in that qnestion than meets the eye. 1£ I have ten pnpil teachers I cannot spare IIlUIlY of them; ·if seven or eight were through their examinations, !l.IlU you wante_tl to withllraw only one or two, I might 'be able to spnre them, but if you wanted to withJrnw the whole eight or t,en I could not conduct my sehool with lllllf Illy st!tft gone for two half-clays a week. '

17i9: It would involve an increase ill t,he sttLfi to wit.hdraw those pnpil teachers for l,wO half-days a week ?-l t is aceordhlg llOW In!\ny pupil teachers you meun ; if it were OIle or .two we might make an effmt, rIIHI Bpare tIWBl, bnt if it were a groat number it would be all impossibility to ml1nago without them.

1780. Havo YOll. considcred tho question of pupil teachers haTing a limited tenure lifter theit· appointment ?-Yes, I haye considered IhaL I do not see what gain there is in it; in faet., I see a direct loss to the Depart.ment if they wore to lessell .the teHme. If yon have a thoroughly well-trained pupil leacber who has completed his course, tlHlt pupil teacher is next door to an assistant; why get rid of lIilll and take iII a raw hand?

17Sl. It woulll bring about a state where you wOllltl have a numher of those pupil teachers who had finbhed their course in the school year after year ?-1 would be very glad if my pnpil teachers remained with me in the school; it is far better than having the !'ItW matel'ial.

1782. vV(iuhl you [llcmase hi;,; salary to all assistant's salary whel~ that pupil teacher really became an assistant ?-If yon appoint It pnpi\ teachel' to a higher position then it must carry a higher salary; hilt as loug as he ,vill stop in the lower PPSitiOll, it is not good policy to interfere with bim.

'I'M witness witlM:lrew.

(Adjourned to Friday ne;rt, at Tllree o'clock).

FRIDAY, 11TH AUGUST, 1899.

THEODORE

J. G. Barrett, Esq., H. C. Jenldns, Esq., C. R. Long, Esq., M.A"

Members prf!Sent:

FINI" Esq., M.P., in the Chair;

'I J. H. Mae Farland, Esq., LL.D., ];:. "V. Poolman, Esq., .J.P" H. W. Potts, Esq., J.P., F.C.S.

Joseph Hulme, sworn and examined,

1783. iJy the GAai1·man.-What 'are you ?-First male assistant at Victoria Park Scheol, Abbotsford.

1784. Are you a member of the Assistant Male Tcach~rs' Association ?-Ye? 1785. Are you one of the witnesseR a,ppoillted to give evidence by that aS50ciatiold-Yes. 1786. ""hat is your experience in counexiollwitb teaching ?-Since 1881. ,178i. How long have you been l\n assistant ?-Siuce 1890. I was a junior assistant prior to that,'

in 1886-7, bllt in the meanwhile I had ch"rge of a cOllnt,ry school. 1788. How were you traiucd ?-I was a pupil teacher for three or fom years, from 1881 to

1883 ; I was a first-year trainee in 1884; and I entered the Training College and 8pent the year 1885 there.

1789. What are yonI' views as to the value of the Kindergarten method 1-0u1' association expre$ses general approyal of the Kindergarten system in the hands of capable instructors, as it forms a pleasant introduction. to se hool work. It brings die children into cnntact wi tIt concrete forms, but the entire Kindergarten is not applicable to State school work. The Kindergarten system begills at an eHI'lier age than children are admitted into the Stute schools; the size of the classes in our State schools requires a modification of the system. The principles underlying it can he embodied in the mcthods adopted, nlmost entirely tln:ough the school, ,a'Qd, in the jndgmeut of' the association, they should be-that is, the children should come into contact with natural objects in concrete forms, as mnch as possible.

'1790. You think the Kindergarten methods should, as fal' as po~sibie, permeate the schools? .-Yes. '.

1791. Wllat are the advantages to be derived, from an e<111cational point of view ?-It giYes .the children, as has been stated, a pleasimt introduction to the school work; it gives them ideas which cannot be obtained from an abstract teaching-more correct ideas; und it is generally a more illtelligent sty Ie of work than any other. The games, which are a part of the system ill the primary Kindergarten work, of' course, would not apply altogether to school work. ,The stfLff, we think, is not at present, sllihble f0r carrying out the work in its entirety.

1792. What do you mean by that ?-There ~rc not sufficient teachers for the number of children, and the teachers themselves require instructing in a great many instances.

1793. The teachers reqnire instruction ?-Ill a great measure. 1794. Could that be graduully done by proper organizers ?-'From my own inquiry, I have been

gi ven to understand that good results followed from the former Kindergarten work that was done. 1795. That is, whenever they had teachers who hJlel been instructed, the resnlts were very good?

-I canIlot say tlley were very good, but. they \fere approved of. 1796. Are not Kindergarten methods, to some extent, applied in certain schools ?-'--They are. 1797.' With what results ?-I have not any instrncteu opinion on that poiut, but, from the general

tendency of the teaching and the method employed, it Cll.llllot but be beneficiaL 1798. As educationalists, do you support this change in the teaching; as far as it is practicable?­

As far as it is practicable, 1799. If the necessary additions could be made to the staff, and the staff prepared for the work, JOu

, would welcome that, too I-Yes. The male assistants do not come directly in contact wHh that braneh. I think some of the lady teachers would he ahle to express an opinion of mol'l') value than ours. The rooms arc not altogether suitable for a very great de\'olopm8ut in the matter. The raised platforms and th'3 fixed elesks on them woulu interfere, to a certain extent, with some of the work.

, ]800. From an educational point of view, is it the view of the members of your association that 'tilis is It desirable system ?-A desirable system.

1801. And all improyed system 011 the present mode of infant instruction ?-An improvement on any system where it is not at prescnt applied.

1802. What is your opinion DS to the training of teachers ?-I have 110t had an opportunity of con­sulting with my colleagues on that point, bnt I think if the lady teachers were afforded an opportunity of qualifying in ~his braneh they also should be credited with this qualification when it comes to the_ matter of classification and promotion. At the present time, if a male assistant is qualified ·to teach drill, it ill entered on his li5t of qnalifications aud considered to a certain extent hy the classifiers. In the same way, if !. lady assistant bad the Kindergarten qualification entered on the roll it would add some weight to the matter, and it would also gh-e them a desire to t:tke the matter up.

]803. Have YOll anything to say about special infllnt mistresses?- That is a point we are some­what in doubt ahout, whether a special infaut mistress wonld be an additional teacher, or whether it would mean that the teacher in charge of the infant class was to be speeially qualified on that point. If the system i~ desirable at all it should be directed and COil trolled by the most capable teacher.

1804, In training teachers do you think the inl'ant mistregs shonld be a specialist ?-Yes. Asto the maintenance of the Kindergarten work, I iuquired at the Victoria Park school, and found that in llllmerous cases when the child I:en ,have taken home their work to show what hns heen donc the parents have desired to purchase it, ami have been allowed to do so. In the Illat-pluiting work they have obtailled it for the cost of the paper.

1805. If they do not want it what do yon do with it ?--I unuerstood it was re-used until it wus no further nse. I think Kindergarten occnpations 8ho111<1 devclop into the haud and eye training. The instrue,tors, we consider, should be specially' qualiEed. It is almost impraeticable in schools nnder an average attendance of 100.

Joseph Hulme. lUh August, 1899.

1806. On a,ccount of the insufficient number of tell.chers?-Yes; atH1 besides that, or1(; teacher has in S0 llJany instances to manage the whole school, and that' teacher is very frequently a male.

o 1807. You think before the system' is generally adopted the staff should be instructeJ by special orgalllzers ? -Yes. .'

lS08. As a whole they are not qualified without that instruction to allminister it efficiently?-Y CR.

As to hand and eye training, we nnderstand it to be the educating of the hand to manipulate, and thc ere to estimate and judge, and we approve of the extension of thecurriculnm to hand and eye training and manual training uuder suitable conditions, and under expert teachers.

1809. Have you considered the time to be deyoted to it ?-Yes, the time to be devoted. to it depends npon the standard to be attained, and the amollnt to be eliminated from the present progrumme, but under any cirenmstances the time should not be less than one hOllr a week.

1810. Are you aware that under most systems the Hme is two hours a week ?--No. 1811. Conld two holll's be given hy lessening the present work ?-Olle hour is mentioned as the

minimnm; it should not be les~ than thttt. The haud and eye training would form a connecting liuk between theKilldergarten and the manllal training. . .

, 1812. By VI" ilIac Farland.-You LU:!e the phraee "expert tcnchers"-do yon mean trained members of the staff, or experts who give themselves up eutirely to this work 7-Visiting teachers. As to ~he cost of the appamtus and maintenanc!', the association is of, opinion that the cost of apparatus and mallltenallee should be borne by tIle Government, though, ns I ha:ve indicated in I'egard to tbe Kindergarten wOl'k, probably there would be many parents willing to provide or purchase the material or goods. . With regan1 to naining the teaehe1'2, thc opinions were so didtled (hai. I could not convey any opillion fi'om them to the Commission.

1813. Have you .any opinion of your own ?,-The teachers would, of conrs,e, leurn with the visiting tellchel's; they would piek up the methods. As the. children were being tanght, the teachers wOlll,1 be taught themi;lelves-they would Sbe that the work was carried out by the children, nlld maintaIn discipline, and YOll wOllld gpt far. better work in that way than where the staff teachers had both to maint.ain discipline and canyon the lesson, especially where the classes are large.

1814. By the Clwirman.-- What are your views on manllal training ?-Provided that merely an acquaintauce with tbe. commOller tools is intended, and not an interference willi the teachhlg of trades, both wood work and iron work should be tanght, bllt wood work would be the more easily taken up. The system might apply to all schools within reasonable dis/mice of a centre where the instruction could be given by an expert teacher'. . .

1815. By Mr. Poolman.-To the pupils 01' to the teachers ?~To the pupils in this case. 1816. BJI the CAainnan.-You say that about the establi5hmentof centres on account of the

difficulty or expense of conveying mannal tndlling to each school ?-Yes. ' 1817. Th.at would be the ideal, if possible?-Yes, if the schools are big enough to justify it .. The

next sGction willlll~tke that clearer-the classes to receive manual instruction are Class 6, and where .pmc, ticable, those in Class 5 over ihil·teen years of age. Yon frequenlly find a lnd who would mnke an adnlirable artisan or mechanic-he is perllnps a little dull at his other .work, ami he is kept back in the 5th class until he is thirteell yenrs of age; at that nge JIe ought to be getting ready to enteI' the 6th class, and it would give a dull lioy an opportunity of fitting himself to undertake work which would perhaps be more in line wUh his own bent [lnd his own mOll tal power. .

18I~. Tllis work is often more educational to marlY children than the mere literary work they are doiug ?-Yes. '

1819. It develops their facultiElf, more quickly, and in some cases it may be the only work that does develop their faculties ?~l dare say there n.re some cases tlmt would'eome under that b~ading.

1820. Is it in all eases an improved method when coupled with the other work? - Yes. The classes might visit the cClitral school of the diet.riet; in Collingwood we have, 1 think, six schools, and It central school ~ight be choscn, aml suitable apparatus provided -they are all' within easy reach of one aIlother. .

1821. That would involve some similarity of time-tables in all the sehools?-Yes. . 1822. YOIl think that is perfectly feasible ?-Quite. We tllink drawing should rorm a portion of

the work. Tho work as far as possible should be dono from working drawings-a Jad should be able to understand the mealling of them.' The buildings and n ppliances of the technical schools, where they exist, should be utilized. ' , 1823. That is for ccol1omy?-Yes, and very frequently they would be fitted up with apparatus

which might not be obtainable at another place. Existing Rt.ate school buildings are in most eases nnsriit.1 able for the work, eith<;JI' illadeqlla~e in space or inconveniEint in parts_where proper accommodation has to be providel!' The most central school might be providetl with tools and apparatus, the buih)ing: in those cases, together with tools and expemlitlJre of material, to be nnder a eompetent special teacher wh\! should be'responsible for the. same, and we think .the Department "lIould provide the lIeecssaries.

1824. Is YOllr evideuee direcied to keep the present st-aft permanently relieved from 'tlle responsi­bilityo'f this form of teaching ?-I can hardly answer that. The teachers nttellding those centres, just a~ in the ease of those who have charge of the classes under the hand and eye experts 01' visit.ing t.eaehers, would lmt.urally leal'll the work. 1 have here a scheme of work which is carried 011' ill some of the English 'schools at an eveuing el<1ss, and n scheme which is dm,!"ll up with regard to the way in which the t.hing either is or could be carried out in local centres here.

1825. Are YOll s~tisfied that the teachel's cOl;ld be properly insttllctedso as to. conduct this class of teaching whenever the appliances !lnd convenience" arrived?-I could not say that everyone could under­take it. It is 10 be remembel'eq that the. pi'esent programme includes an imrnense variety of work, so t.hat 11 man to bo proficient ~n every brunch would need to be a sort. of llniversal genius~-he has t.o take npso many varied branches of education, mor.al; inteUeetmil, and physical; he has to demonstrate .to a certain extent. in physiology; in some cases he is a leet.nrel' in electricity or chemistry on a small scalp, and so on all the way rOllnd the programme. Freqnently, t~o, yon will find that a mail is an excellent mUllll(ll worker, aIld yet 110t able to impart instruction ill other school subjects ou the best, ]ines. The mal111IlJ work and the intellectllal work are. so different ill their treatl1lout.s in many oases that. it is hurd to.say .that the same man would be able. to .take up both parts t.ilOrollghl,v, ~m(l I would hesitate before saying that Ihe flame mltn co~ld .manll:geboth-:-hemig~t makq a!1 l,lttOlllpt;. bue, whether he would succeed or not is anoth~r matter.

Joseph Hulme, 11th Augu.t, 1899,

1826. Practically, under OUI' system, every teacher in ~eachillg one cla~s or a\lother needs to under­stand everything in the cnrriculnm ?~ Yes.

11521. Is that the case in .England or America ?-I caunot say. In some of our St,at,e ~choolil here one man on the staff is gifted in the dmwlng line, lInd t,be whole work of t,he school may be gl\'en to that Olle per8011, to take the drawing all the Wl1y throllgh the schooL That man, however, is quite liable to he sent to a back-block school, and then he is quite at sea with regurd to the ordinary subjects of the pro­gramme-if a man could be retained for the olle special work permanently that woultl meet the case.

1828. Would you say that YOllr system of utilizing the work of teaehers is uot elastie enough?­I think for the best results ior t.he whole eolony oue man shollid take as much of the whole work of the programme Oll himself as possible; it is impossible now to keep auy one man in town. Eaeh teacher should be as capable as possible in the whole work of that programme, because he has to gv to t.he country some time or another if he wants to be promoted. An assi~tallt tcachel!, in town has to go into the eountry for at least two years bef'ot'e hc can rise to a higher elass. Specialists fo1' each suhjeet" provided the discipline can be properly mailltained, is the best, plan-where you hal'e iJ, number of' teachers during the day 10 the one class the di~cjplille is liable.to become· lax. \Vith regnrd to t he training of teachers, this recommendation was sent on, that, no teacher should he required to undertake a branch of the new 1V0rk without first having received all mh'qnate tmining in the fmme. In England a eertaiu district may wish to take up a eerlaill brllnch of work or llHU1ual training; the local authorities, together with the Board of Education, control th08e evclling cllu'ses, mltl I he funds· are pfovi,le:1 by a Government graut, a local municipal cOllllcil grulIt, and by private subs'criptiolls, nnd 'It nominal fee· from the children. Then npon thnt I wonld place something else, ·whieh would, I thillk, gl"( a great impetus to the tecllllicttl education ill the colony, that is, when vacallcies 111:ise in Go,'ernment Depltl'tment8 and public bOll ies, thnt those childrClI who were provided ,yit h certificates of proficiency in t,hose classes shouid be considered eligible without fnrther examination for those positions. At the present time 'ye haye the Hail way Department seeking for a great number of adlliLional hands; if they were able to go to thc local centres for the children, there would be something to help forward the technhcal education. Witll regard to this Illanual work, and tlie hand and eye work, there comes in the necessity for a system of inJustrial schol:tl'ships-I think there bns already been before this Commission a sample of the work dOlle by a lad from tbe ViCLiorn Pat:k school, Wllle eleetrieal !tpparalns-this is Some of the boy'H unaided work [1J1"oducing tile same]. That bo} hns dono this, and I do not think he is a solital'y instance of talent which is perhaps waiting a little development;, and if a b()y in sneh It case as that had an opportunity of laking up a scbohLrsitip at one of the tecllllkal schools, or, if he is skilled in one of the other branches, at the Agricultural College, or School of Mines, or School of Horticulture, it would make au' ontlet [or his natural bent, and I think the teehnical edlleation would l'e3eive an impetus in th"t way. Tilis morning It scheme of scholarships iSSHed by the J;~tlucatioll Depart­meut came onL

1829. Those are all provided by private schools ?~ Yes, Hlld J think voluntarily; whether it is a wise state of affairs or not I eannot Bny, but. it is desilable to htwe the scholarships, whatever the induce­lIlent t.o grant them may be. LooldlJg nt tlwt, we illll'e only the. onlinary grammar sehools, high schools, and colleges offering those. At prescnt we havc IJoliling to lJelp forward a lad who does not, either from circumstanccs or from his natnral bcut, wi.':ih to go in those lines and work towards t,he UniYersity; a latI might, perhaps, be better suited if the schola I'ship worked towards the technical school or one of the Govern­ment colleges. On the eircular that has been issued thera is no mention whatever of those Goverument insti tutions,

1830. Do they ignore the existence of the School of Mines ?:-J mean that the children in State schools are to a great extent ill ignorance of the existence or scholarships at those Government institutions -a Stato school child is not breught ill ('ontact with them at all.

1831. How can the mindR of the children aud their parents be directed to that ?-By having the names of the Government institutions and the particulars of the scholarships 011 the circulars issutJd by the Department.

1832, They are familiar with j,]10 fact that certain s'eeondary schools offer scholarships, but not Schools of Mincs ?-Yes.

1833. Do Schools of Miiles offer scholarships ?--In onc or two instanccs ; ont· association instituted inquiries at a number of colleges and teebnical.sehools, and we found that only in some of t,hcm are those

near t.hem. of them are purely local, ttnd an ordinary State school hoy hits no chance of anywhere

1834. If t.Irere were inereased scholarships at the technical schoolS, would they be the subjects of yonI' 'pupils' work ?-They' ~'onldif there were Ilgain somet,hillg beyond the technical schools. llmve hem drawn IlP I. scheme of scholarships and exhibitions at the present time we lmv6 the exhibitions working (rom the grammar schools and the colleges; and Governmont grants a certain numbel' of exhibitiolls from theUl to t,he University, awarded to those obildren WllO have obtainod scholarships at these secondnry schools; the exhibition carries them on to the University. We have all A rL Galler)' here, but we lH1ve nothing workinu iuto it from ollr prescnt. Statc schools; we have schools of design which,. in our opinion, are not nea.rl~ like so useful as they might be, und if ill thoso schools of design an opportnni f.y were afforded for It lad t~,. obtain a scholarship which would carry him on to tIle Art Gt.llery, that would promote dIRt brllnch of education. 'Vith regllnl to the commercial branch, r think 011e iustitution in Melbollrne has offered scholnr­ships, where lads can be trained in the eOlnmercial line. If in coonexioll with that branch we coold (Vet the Govcl"lll1leu.i to recognise comp~te!lee there, if the system wcre ean1ed out, from t.hat source might be dl'alVIl the Government requirements, public bodies might tlu'ir needs supplied, and the Chamber of Commerce. The next fmd last branch of this scheme is the part to which the hand and eye I1ml.lDl1t1ual work really tends; we hn,ve the technical schools, thc ngricultuml colleges, the dairy collcges, aud the minipg allq horticnltural schools, at which scholarships might. be granted. .

1835. I3 there u dairy college ?-I eannot say. We have a dairy expert who has done goorl work, and we have a hori.icnltura\ school. If competent ~tndents at those places had It prospect of obtaiuing situations it wonld give them a stimulns; and from those a'lluml~er of othe.· positions in public oouies rnigbt be proyitlcd. There ,vas on one occasion; I undcrstalld, I think ill Ballarat, 11 firlll of architects "'ho accepted some stl,ldents without a premit.lm; tire students have been coached lip alld havo becollle so proficient t.hat some of our firms w9uld be glnd to outain them as being good rnateril1! to worl! Oll, and the

Joseph Hulme, 11th Augu;'t,l.899. 90

same thing might be developed further. As to sectioll 6, the aitel'ation of programme rendered necessaI'Y by these snbje?ts, the standard of grammar might be lowere<l to thnt of Class 5, together with OIlO or two additions in simpler words; the 6th ebss parsing and analysis scheme might be wiped out that woultl relieve the classes lower down. With regard to history, ill Ne;'v South Wales they do not t.ake a text-book of history, I understand, such as has been recolllD1"!lllleti and put into use in onr schools hen', but a number of narratives .are dealt wit h, I have not had an opportunity of bringing this very fully before our association, but as far as I have had an opportunity of .speaking to individual members it is agreed that the Depm'tment might compile a handbook of, S~Ly, 24 historical ineitlents from the whole period of British -nml colonial history, trenteclin t.he narrat.ive st.yle for use in the fonrth class.

1836; Is tllat to lighten t.he work to lighten the work and do away with the 4th class text-Look. The history of the 5th and 6th classes might be confined to one period, say the Hanoverian; the 5tb class would deal with the olltlines, and ~he 6th more ill detail. Altbough sioging is generally au interest.ing lesson, it might, if necessit.y it,> he l'ednce(l to one lessoll of three-quarters of an llOur per week hy bringing dowll. theorY"to a minimum, and taking songs at the change of lessons, as is frequen.tly dOlle now. With to the efficiency of school s.taffs to carry out llew work, the present staffs nre inefficient fOl' tlle nmv \\-ork iUllllmber and pl'cscat ability. The system of employing monitors shonld be done away with withont hardship to thom; \\'e shoulLl like to see the former system in trod nced, if possible, of appointing Olle assistnul amI ono pupil teacher for every 100 ebildren o,er the first 50. As to the size of the from 40 to 60 children is tllOllght sufficiont for thorough work. Pupil teachers generally might take a class of 40, and an .ussistnnt n ciass of GO, but'of course there would be exceptions to that; the pupil teacher might perhaps be lllore efficient than the assistallt~the ideal nnmber is frolll 20 to' 30. The pupil teaeher examination sllbject~ arc a.IJ~elldy far too hen vy; the same applies to our onlillltry school programme, on the nltemlion of wl1ieh any alterat,iOIl in the pllpil teacnel's' examination would depend. 'rhe pupil teachers are trained to teach the ordinary programme; if any alteration is made in the scholars' IJrogramme the pupil teachers' programme would necd altering in accordance with that. INith thc present limited staff, and the result system existing, pupil teachers are too frcqnen'tly kept to the one class. The same plcvails as with an appl'e:lticeship ill enginecring works, a lad becomes proiieiellt at 011e brallch or olle style of work, and it is to the employer's interest to. keep hirn tltel'e~a pupil te·teher can obtain a certninpercerttngo of resn'ltR at a cCl.,tnin cllU;~, and it is not to the teacher'sointerest that that pupil teachcr should get a more extensive expel:ieurc by being moved to other classes. The resnltis disastrouswben a pupil teacberis sent dircct from u to\\'n to a COlmlry sehool; ill thc to\nl he has had the oile class, amI ill the country he has to take eh~Lrge of a series of dasf!es, fronl three up to six elas,es possibly j tbey are not in this way trained !lS thoroughly as tucy might be. Uuder present cirCllmstances a pupil teacher would a division of the 3rel class, and in the ani class he would not have anything like the oxperience of the hand ttlHl cye work or tlie manna,} work tllat he wonld have if he were moved aLont in a svstcllllltic WIl,\'. I think in manv schools the metbods of teaching may be taught in the austract; but tl:e head teac!J~r and the assistant "teachers who take up this work have not the time to go through the whole work, itlld nlso to devote the time to the school manage­ment nnd school methods which is essential. Recenlly, we have hnt! Lacin, algebra, alld euclid added 10

tbe subjects of the pupil teachcr's exmuination, apt! ihe teacher's work is thcreby incrcased to ihat extent. J837. Are they optionnl subjects ?~No; for the competency certificate, that is beyoild t.he

pnpil teacher's examination, they are optional, bnt not for the llew pnpil teacher's course. \Vith regard 1,0

the Training College, the trainee very frequently forfeits something in going into the eollege ~hat be is 110t compensated for by his trainillg.

1838. By lYh. Jenldns.- Would your lIssoeiatioll view with f-a:vour the tliscontinuunee of formal writing, reading, and arithmetic lessons ill infant classes ?-That is a point we have not discnssed.

1839. And teaehing tho~e subjects lmder the improvod methods ?-I do Hot thillk itconld be done . altogether; perhaps if the thing were gradually introduced, by tllC time it had got to it certain stage the

teachers might be educated up to giving an opinion upon its entire 11se. 1840, Has your associMioll any opinion as to whether all infant mistress should Lave any

independent authority ?-Thal. question hilS not· been brought up. 18'11. Has your association auy preference for any p:ll·tieu)ar form of hUlla lind eye training? -The

work is being introdueed, !lnd those I have spoken to haveJor the mO'st part taken to the cardboard work

'File witness ~lJitltdl'ew.

Edgar Robert Davey, M.A., LL.B., sworn and eXfllnined. . 18,12. By the Chai)'man.-Wh!lt are you ?-An assistant in the South Yarra State School. 1843. How long have you bceu an assistant ?-Ahout ten years. 184-l. \Yhat are yom views in relation to instrtwtiOl1 ill elementary science, with reference to special

industries in special districts ?-We arj3 of opinion that it ought to be differentiated~we' think that the elementary science programme is sutliciently high for the State schools at presellt. That is not exactly my own view, bnt I represent the Male Assistants' Assoeiation. Personally, 1 should like to sec a cOll­siderable extension, as in New South "Yales and South Al1stmlia. I should like to see the chelllical mi'd physical properties of agriculture iutl'odnced, especially in agricilltul'ltl distriets. I should also like to see chemistry, which is llseflll in'every industry, ta1Jght"to the upper cl:1,ses ill tho State schools.

1845. Do you think it could be inti'oduced ?-1 should think so ; at all events the elemeutary principles, so far as they 1'elr,te to our industries and manufl1cturcs, might be embodieJ in some form or lesson, ·eithe1' in an object lesson or iIi some other way.

1846 .. By Dr. iliacF'afrland.-Is uot your assochttioll in favour- of tlmt ?-The t\ssociatlou has limited me to saying that thc present standard is sufficiently high. I am in a minority.

1847. By the Chai1'1nan,-Arc you eatisfied that they go forther in the oLher colol1ies ?-In ~ew SOllth.Wales science includes lessons all animal and plant life, and on the chemical and physical principles involved in agl'icnltnl'o; more advanced lessolls on 3rt! ciass subjects, with light, heat, aUlI air ill relation to healtil, also lessons on elementary physical sciellce" so tl?nt agriculture is tauglit there, whereas it is totally absent with liS where it occurs in the reading lesson.'

1848. You think 'something like the New South Wales system might be achieved in country schools ?-l think so, seeing that we are chiefly depeudellt upon agriculture.

91 Edgar Robelt Davey, 11th August, 1899.

1849. 'Vhat are the views of your association upon, the system of payment hy results, having regard to the lIew subjects proposed to be introd!lced ?-Our association are unanimol1sly in favour of its abolitio!J, because "it -encourages" Cl'ltlll," and it supresses the bright and iutelligent youth; YOll have to keep him in the one chtss for a yellr uBuer the age test, whercas hc is fitted for the chss beyond. Then YOll have to force on the weak chilu to get him through the examination; 70 per cent. or pl'Oillotions bave to he made every year, and yon will find that from 15 to 20 per eent. of those arc forccd int.o classes for which their natural ability hardly fits them, so for the year they have to work on the same nnnfttnral lc\'el as their smarter companions, and the teaeilers have to tcach the dnnces to the sucrifice of the equal1Y'or more deserving intelligent youth. The majority ?eillg smarter, are equally deserving of the attention of the teacher, but nnder this result system he has necessarily to bring up thc few who will otherwise bring down his percentage.

1860. Will the abolition of the paYlnent by reslllrs syslem involye any alteration in the moue of inspection and examination ?-H would not he necessary to examine iIHliyidually, ami ,the inspector's time wonld ue sa,-e(l, The inspector wonl,l select a few anI tnke the average instead of wasting his time examining cach scholar ill so IIIUllY ~nbjects, with so many questions in caell "nbjeet.

U:i51. Do yoti eonsidl'r the present method' of eXlilnillation a fair test of thc ability of the master alld the cdncation 'If the pupil ?-It stnnts n man's work, but I think the inspectors generally seek to be fair.

1852. Is tllflt method a fnil' olle ?-Onr association does not consilJer it, fail' in senlral particulars. For instance, in the upper chtsses arithmetic i':l divided into two groups; in each group you must get one slim right and the method right in anotfwr snm to score It pass. A child may get a sum right in each 'group and get no pass in arithmetic.

1853. And the teacher gets 110 credit ?-N 0, llone. 185-1. As yon condemn the system in relation to the existing work, do you condemn it in relation

to the new work ?-Tbe condemnation extends equally, for similar reasons. 1855. Bow should the system he modified ?-J<.;ight3en montbs is prescriiJed by the regulntiolls for a

ehild to be in encil class, yet the examinations are beld every ye~r, and 70 pel' cont.. wust he put up and exami.ncd, so n dullehild mllst be examined, tbough he has not heell long enough in the elaes to become fully acquninted with the work of tihat class. We thi uk, as hc is only two-thirds ~f tho prescribed time in the class, two-third" of the result i.e., 66~ p3!, eenl., shoulll COllllt as the maximum.

1856, What would you substitute for the result Rystell1 ill the way of testing yom \York ?-The ins1)f,ction of lllethods, the mode of handling a claiis, amI t:he general intelligencc of that class as indicated, noL by tlleir knowledge of mel'S parrot fuets, but by their skill in attacking !lew problems,

1857. lIow are you going to havc that tosted ? -I pl'ljsnme the system in Now South \-Vales [l,ud Sonth Australin i's to examine as a whole; they n,re not eon fined to exact facts, but tlley can go into causes and see tho relationship of one thing to another; here it is thc fl1ets only.

185B. What is youI' opinion as to the amalgamation of schools amI its effect on teaching -?-Teaching must certainly lose ill effieiency \\'hen t,here is only one heall ma5ter t.o two ;,ehools or more. It is impos­sible for him to slIperl'ise ,properly and seo that the reglliatiolls and propel' instrllction aro cnrried out in 1.he two-~\ll(l sometimes throe--schools, which mny be miles apart. Then the system is unpopUlar, becausc it has Jepri ved many teuchers who looked fOl'\vllrd to certain promot.ioll of that promotion, and they will be deprived of it for It period that call not be estimated. It has also increased the sizo of the classes in some cases, and throwlI more work upon the assistall~S, and probably 011 the pupil teachers too, thereby decreasing their efficiency.

1859. What nrc the views of y01l1' associrttioil on optional sn ujccts?- We nre of opinion that a modified systcm of opliollnl sllbjects wonld be of value. Some tenchers take up slIch things as agrielllture or clectricity as a houby, and we think lbat, while the principal 8ubjeets should not be optional, thore should be an option allowed in the different branehes of science. A teacher may be speCially fitted to take eh!trge of the agricultural tuition in an agrieultuml district, nltd we are of Orillioll that the Department should facilitnt;o that being done by nlIowing oxchanges of teachers from subllivisioll to suhdivision, which nt presen t,is not allowed, and by taking away the· restriction which prevents a man in tIle metropolitan men exchanging with a man in the country, prOVIding the man wishing to exchange sholVs an expertness in some plhticlllnr branch of' science.

H160. Would YOll confine it to science? ·-1 would not like tl? draw a hard and fast tine-a man may be specially fitted to tench geotlletdenl drawing ii! Melbol1l'ne.

1I:l6 L By Dr. frlac Farland.-You say YOll yourself are in favonr of introducing what might be caHed specittlized science teaehing in thc 5t,h and 6th classes; do you consider it \Vonld be desirable to introduce auy changes in the science t.cnehillg in the classcs bclow the 5th ?-Yes, I would make it I. suhjceL foi' examination in the 4th dass.

1862. That is a separate and dist illCt SllbjecL from general lessons 7-Yes. 1863. Have yon nnything special to :;ay as to the method of instruction for these seiellce c1asses?­

\-Ve are in favour of the labomlOry method in all science. I86+. Is that practicable i-With tile elements of meehanical scicnce it is carried ont ;we have

apparatus for pulleys, levers, and inclined plane; we have Hix's apparatus, wbieh is excellent foJ' those things; we have eoncrote exnmples of the syphon, and we show tho working of the thermometer-ho\v to illnke a thermometer or barometer, As far as my cxperienee goes ali our science is well taught; we have abundance of apparatus.

. 1865. Is the ftppamtlls not only used by the teachcrs hut as fllr as possible by some of the scholars? -Yes.

1866. Are you in favour of the Department giving any more encOllragemellt~, J SClerlC<J t,eacfilng :'.ltll

they uo now ?-Our association says that these sciences, which are of sl10h importance, should be place(l in the curriculum in the Training College ahont to be ro-opened. '

186i. Do you l'ofer to science teaching gilIlerally or to the specialized SCiCllCO teaehiug required in particular industries ?-Chemistry, agriculture, phyeics, &c. .

ltl6tL Has your association expressed any opinion as to' the timo p01' week that could be givell to these things ?-We think it might uo one hour Ii -week.

Edgar Robcrt'Dayey,~ 11th AnitUSt, 1899 •. 92'

lS69. How are the teachers illstructetl ?-Pllpli teachers are instTltcte(1 by the stnff'nt present, and mn,ny teachcrs go rol' sciences which have a vaJl1c as a qualificatioll; some of tllelll have taken as many as' the whole lot; thero me eight oi' nine of {,he seiencos.

1870. Is the presenG method by wbiclt schools are snpplied with apparatus satisf~lCtory to your aS8o(;intion ?-VVe !tl'e.of opinion 11mt the Government shouhl supply tJwappamtlls.

1871. vVithont !t::,killg the local centres to c0I1tribllte in nny way 1--Y<?s. 1872, By gfl' . .JclI/iins.-Hns your nssOeittlioll considered how fttr object lessons in matters of local

interest could replace special science work '(-Iv is aile of the rcgulntioll!3 fot' thc 2lld cln~s that natuml and' manufactllreti productB sliall form pm't. of the geneml 'illstrnction of the cln~s: .

1873. 1 mil spenking of specinl ol)ject iC8sons on special matters of local interest?-o-Our association has not delllt with thnt. '

1874, Do Y011t11ink science teachingcoultl be extended a good deal by that means ,?-Every 'teacher natnrally soeks for concrete examples around him. He goes to the various factories Or pll1ces of nll11111~ fndure and gets thc concrete illst-allel's:

1875. You spoke of ]llodifying the sciellce tCltchillg.aeconling to the localueeds of tL district. How would you 1l1otii(y Ihc scheme of science teaching in :\ Jairying district or lb milling district'?-~ln an agt'i­culLuml dhtriet the visiting tcachel', who is all expert, could 'very woll Hel ill nn itinerary fnshioll, going from school to school at ccrtnin a['poillted times, and giving to the children collected ill the \arious s(~h(.ols a series of lectures 011 the manurial parts of the soil, the propel' rotntion of c}'ops, tllB chemical H-na'lysis of the soil, and SHelt fundamental principles as would be most, useful to them ill funning. ~n mining it seelI1s t.o be impract.ieable to a lurge extent., but where it could be done it.' might he done in a similul' rIUtllller.

1876: Have you bad allY cxperience of the "isit,ing teacher ?-Xo, the system hail never bcen ill vOg'nn ill Victoria, exeept by the ngrieulfural expert at the present time. I have lmd experieuce qf singing and dl'fLwing mnsters, n!ld I fOllnt! the drawing lllltdters do cxcellent work, . , 11:177. Do YOll think that great benefit is done to a school by huving a visiting teacher ?--The scholar is natl1l'ally ber.eiitpd hy Illving a superior teacher.

1878. Y,m cOllsider his epeeial skill outweigl1s any disadvantage he might. suffer undor hy having­less contncr with the children ?-My experience W:li! that visi ting masters were good toaellers, and' exceedingly weI up ill their art.

1879. \Voultl your a.;sociatioll WiRh to modify the present scheme of instt'uelion in scienee?~ I think the nssoeiat.ioll wonld not be averse to nny f'hanges, provide(l the ext.tllIt. of the science tcaching 'were .not encroached lIpon.

1880. Dol nnde~stallClthat their reason for \vislJing to kcep (.he prescnt'state of thiugs is that they arc nfrni,l of overwork ?-The children could 'not stand it; the teachers arc not afraid of the work.

1881. The reachers are afraid or overworking t he children ?--In some cases they arc. The teachers who have tn carry out this work, l1nd leam ail the inlloyations. in tho cnrriclIlu'm, 'arc not averse to it at all; but consiclemtioll should ];e "howtl to them !llld the childrell, Some time ago singing and drawing were taught exclusively by visiting mllsters ; then the vi~itillg masters were dispe1lsed with, and tho~e subject.s are now tnught, in it great measure IJY the tea<:hers who have tlll'llcd theirattelltion to l'3arning. siuging amI drawillg, nnc! it is said they are taught eiTIcient;jy. They WGi'c not trained to leach singing allll .. dmwillg origiually, but, wIlen necessity de:llltutled that thcy shonld teach them, they seG 10 work and got the subjects up and {aught them.

1882. You consider they would he able to leach n good Jeal if thoy lmd· furthel' 'illstruclioll thcm-selves ?-Yes, I think that is a sl:ne non.

1883: By JIr. Potts -You considcr leeturcttes should be introduced into thc schools a nd given in a taking uut,ural way to the upper classes ?-Yes. •

. lS84. You thillk that teachers taking up those special subjeets would require ~ome form of ·tuition from l:lpcdn.l experts '?-~Therc are some teachers :who have a great dcal of information and nptitude in that way, and they could he made nse of; bllt tile great body ,,"ould requirc extra tuition to pl'ElVe}lt their making enol's.

lS85. lVonld not the present systeril of pl.y!lWl1t by resnlls lHIVC' a Llcpl'essing efI'ect upon the ellthnsinsm and ardour of the teacher8?-Yes.

1H86. It wonld be nil advantage to a district like Lallceflehl for the teacher. located there t'O take up sneh a subject tiS agric1.'tltlll'e ?~ Yes. .

18S7. Whereas in a place like Mildllm it would be bel tel' for h~lll to take up insect pests awl fruit "'rowing ?-Yes. '" l888. Am~ in the nor! h-ellst he might take IIp dairying? - Y t's:

J 889. You wou!d have teachers located ill dIOse districts who would tnke up those ,varions .suhjects ?-Yes, I ha,'e alw!lYs ndvoeated that, and that is the vielv of the ussocintion.

IH90. This is a paragraph from the report of the French Commission :-" After eohsidering propositions to fmrne for 'all the ordinary prilllnry schools a general syllabus like that just quoted for those imlllediately higher in grade, thc Commission recomTllendell tllLtt the instrnction to be given to these younger childrcn shoul,luot be tabulated aIlll stereotyped' in 'tuy regulnr code of thcoretical teachillg. They preferred to see t,he teaching in the ekmeutary schools made essentially practienl and as 'simple ns possiblp .. the aUelltioll of the childrcu heing always d~'IIWll 10 Wb tlt was goiug OIl tlroulld them in the cOllntry, 'and the intere.st excittl<l ill f1 degree befitting ,their age, only 80ch elementary llotions beillg pressed on' them :lS'

might immcdintely concern tbe actuul tillage operations which they witnes5ed Liny by day. It is left., therefor", to the intelligence of iudividullJ teachers to makc their OWl! programme for tbe familiar lessolls to be given, suhject Ollty to slIch control as the dcpnrtrnolltnl professors might be able to exercis'J over thc' teaching staH of the e.Oll n try schools." Do you a ppnhe of,those genel al principles?-I tbink vcr)' highly indeed of them.

18!) l. In dCl1ling with subjects of tlHlt kind, you wOHid consider that genl'ral teaching would, have' a tendency to .interest the children in the natural SlIlToulldings of t,he di~trict ?~I think t.1i!1t is the best euncatiol) possible. ' .

1892. And it \vould tcnrl to keep ehiltlren ,011 tho Ian.! f--- Yes, inasmuch as it. would iuduce them to see thc direct ami pmctical value of thiugs-it would certaillly·lmve thnt eHect,

93 Edgar Robert Davey, 11th August, 1899.

1893. By Mr. Long.-Ha\·e Y9!1 any tlrBt·lmnJ knowletlg~ of the mode of examination 111 New South 'Vales and South Australia ?-I had converiiations wit.h inspeetors wlten I was on a visit to New South Wales last Christmas.

1894. They examinegenorally on the mo(1es of t,()fwhing there?-Tes, the regulatiolls provide how the ex(tll1irmt.lon is 10 be condneted. They take the ,chool Ani sho\\' the t,eacher hvlV it "hould ve done; they take it ontof \;is hands : . .It'geliler, IIl1li mark whether he hasnJatleattcmpt;; to kel'p llP to tile standard that they have Het on former visits. Teachers will work n8 hnrd as they po,,>sibly call I.e, get I,he commendation of tI'e inspector, to feel that, lheir work is appreciat.ed, and that they luiye a chnnce of heing promoted uy I,he Depart.ment. No {'nrthel' stimllln5 is wanted at all. .Mr. Bartlett has told YOIl thaI, the

. teachers in his scnool who am not affected uy the system of payment by resnlts work as hard as those who are, mHll am snre teachers will haye·as much cherI< upon them, and will st.rivo as hard to pl'0dnce good' results, by feeling thnt their efforls are apprecii1ted, alill tlmt they are likely to secure the rewards I hey nre entitled to. No further stimulus will be lIeeded, and we sllnll havo nn improvement all, ronnd .

. , rhe lvitness uJit/ulrelfJ,

I·'rederick Hayden, SWOI'll au·1 oxamiiled.

1895. By the. Chai'l'man.- What. are YOII ? - Bead ll1,aster of the Yarra Park State Scboo!' i896. How lon,g have yon ueell a head fi!,aster ? -Thirt.y-t,wo years, 1897. What sclloo18 did yon have before this one ?-Itnmediately bBfor(' I was at South IHelbourne.

Previous to,that, for 2201' 23 years, I was at Ascotvale. . 1898. vVhut were the sizes of the other schools? -1'he one at Sonth Melbourne was an amalgamnted

school; thc avemg'e was about about 1,400; at Yart'a,Pnrk it is between 950 and 1,000. 1899. 'Whit nre yonr views upon the Kindergarten system ?-1 Imve had some experience with H.

I think it is n system that eau do much 10 strengthen alllI develop the mind of early childhood. It is a,system which canses children to observe and compare and reason, and gradually the young child forms the habit of eX81'cising 11.13 faenlties on all that comes within its reach; that is one of'the greatest ad vantages to young children iu that system.} .

1900. What do you thiuk as Lo its aaoption hel'e 7-J thillk it conld be adopted in schools of. 100 it the classes were not toO large. The Kindergarten is cssentially a system that limits indi vidun,l attention as much as pOBsi ble; the nrmngl·m.ont oE the rooms eould be mlnptetl for iI" especially in n large school, so ,tlmt the teacher should not have too many, at all events in the initiatory stages. Where the classes are not large it .could be condtwtcd itt a school of 100,.but in a school of 100 a large proportiob are iufants. An infant mistress, etlpeeially trained, lludonbtedly "hol11d be in charge of the infant department, and the Kindergarten work, in my experience, might go np to the 1st class, inclusive-that is not th8 whole of 'he Kindergarten system, but it wonltl take in the practical part for the jnvenile part, of the school up to class T. I thilrk thero it might stop, and a modification of it might eome in for tho other classes, that is, the fir:;t six gifts for class I., and then it eon]d be modified, and the principles pel'meate the classes np 10 the 3rd. I do not t.hink it wonld he necessary to go furtbel' than that., beeallsc manual training would come in t,hen and take its p1nce~ As to the cost of introducing this system ~nd maintaining it, T can speak from experience. I tried it Itt Ascotvule for ,a considerable t,ime wit.h very pleasant results. I fonnd that \II hen Jhe ehihlrcll maLle the mats and variotls little article!', ami look them hOllie, the parents most readily: bought them; thoy gave tiS Id. each for them, lUld the cost was less than ~d. We used to take the surplus L) MuUen's 01' Cole's and get a good stock ill for the llext lot, so we always had plenty of material that cost as nothing. There would be the cost of the expert ·to begin with. We could not possibly have 'Kindel'gart.en taught in Ollr schools lIll,lcss it was started 011 a good basis, and st,nrtcli by an export teacher, such a one as we had here rr: little while ago, Mrs. Golding. She laid the founcl!1tion very thoroughly, and I think if we had one like that we cOllld llJanage it. ()

1901. You think, with expert organizat,ion of that character, the sy~tem could gradually be intro­dllee(l all over tho eolony'?-":'Yes. No doubt an adequate supply of good teachers is necessary fer the success of allY national system. Only the monitors and pupil teachers should be plaee(1 with the infant mistress' who have shown an aptitude 'for Kiudergarten work. Some teachers are nntnrally adapted for it, and it has been a failure to try and get a t,eachel' without the natural aptitude for it to ulll[ertake it all. It is like puttfng t1 carringc horse into n plough; they are too heavy, and there nre plenty of young people in the school who have an aptitude for it. I would place them with the infant mistresses, and they should have opportunities of receiving t,eaching in this system ontside the 8d1001 work, from the expert. This expert should be attached to the Training CoJlege, and would hold the central classes 011 Saturdays, and those young teachers in training for the Kiudergarten work !,'ould go 1.1P and have practicalleswns from her; and when they went into training themselves a good many of them would c0I!lc ont qualified for infant mistresses the.mselvps, ,and they would be able t,o take positions in other schools. I think that would provide meallS for giving us' infant mjstresses with It good knowledge of Kindergartell work. The expert teacher might very well visit the centres, say, Castlemaine, or Bendigo and StaweJl, and have central ela,sses there; the same thing would oCCllr in large schools as would be done here through the Training College. The next thing is hand and eye training and its introduction into schools as a connecting link between Kindergarten in the lower and manna I tmining in the upper classes in large schools. Clay, modelling occurs to me as being the most suitable subject to take up then; the young child ron have passed through all the IIHtllipnlation of work witb their fingers in the infant room, and they might then take up clay modelling, nnd t!Jat wonld be useful to them in getting the hand to obey the eye and get an apprehension of form. They take the clay and see something on the fiat, say a circle, and they would be ask.ed to produce that in the round; they have to form that into a solid concrete body. It can easily be changed then to another shape, snch as a wheel, or an orange, or a cup, and they could draw it after they had made it. As to continuance through small schools, I tbink it might be con­tinued through small schools. I tbink one hour and a half a week might be given to hand and eye training. The eost of the apparatus might be lesscned very considerably iu the same way as the Kindergarten, that is, by getting the children to make objects themselves which. are kept in the school and,sold. I found the children readily bought thi'ngs that were made, the parents also bought them, and the children bought them £01' each other. Clay modelling is very inexpensive; what it would (Jost is a mere bagatelle.. As to manual

Fi1euerick lIayderi, 11th August, 1899, 94

trnining, I IUL"e an oLject "cre that a small boy aetur.lly- made; H shows there must be sOlliL: lateut talent and genins that only wants c1e"eloping-- [producing some specimens J. 1 hnppened to go down to the exhibition at Colliugwooc1 whcn juvenile work was exhibiled, and t.ld~ attrncted my attention. 1 fOllnd it was made by a boy at my own scitool, alll] I made illqniry and fOllm] it ,,'as all his own work.

1902. What age was the boy ?-AIJout ten years old. 19C13, Do YOll think that generally wood work would develop a special aptitude ?-Yeo, I thiuk so.

All who ha\'e seell thllt wer8 pcrfeetly electrified, ami lhey were all anxious to Imye a try at someliliilg of the sort.

1904. 'What is the Loy's mtllHl ?-Lewis Evans. Ilia Ilot kllow much about iron working awl the schools where Ihe systcm shonld'apply. I tldnk it might apply to any school that was near a centrc. I thiuk . 'inslmtll of having this training re581'ved for clafses it would be bctter to allow all the boys in the Stnte schools who have passCllI the siandard examination, and satisfied the Gover.nment as to their education, to attend t.hose classeE. A great lllallY laus get a certificate in the 4th class, and arc wanted to help their parent~ ; they go to \\'ork, Lut.they do not lune all opportullity oLlearuing any trade or a!lY parLicular kind of tools, as they migh't doat those classes.

1905. At pr3~en t they can obtain a cert.ificate at' any age ?-If a boy was very smart;, he might get into the 4th class at tell, but it is not likely a Loy under tell would get into nle 4th. If a boy, Leillg yery smart, were pnsllCd IIp Ly thc teacher, ho would find his way into the 4th class, and get his certificate, irrespective of his age. I have known them get it at nine. .

1906. Do you think it possible that a lllillimlllll age should befixed ?-No, I think if a boy has the talent to get it, he should not be deprived of it.,

1907. Yon wOllhlmake the manual training available for all who have a certificale r-Yes. , 19,08. BV l1fr. l'oolmrm.-'Wonld you c?l1lpel children to r(:mitil! at school unt,il a certain age, even

after they got the ceTtificate '(-No, I would not compel them to remain. l!109.BytheChairman.-Doyoll think the establishment of centres is necess:!ry?-Yes, there

should be some expert in a centre ncar' to whom all the schoob couhl send tlIll Lays at certain times, whether school time or Satllruay would be a lllatter for subsequent arrangeineut.

-1910. Would )'OU give more than an liOllr aud a half to IlHtllllal tntillillg?~Yes; I think if it were known that. 0111' Loys wellt to a centre to mallual tmining, men who have factories or places of business often want a lad, and they would come to that place, and ask if they had It lad with any aptitude for a certain !'tyle of work, and a lad having been well trained, and his fingers supple, might get tile situation righ t off. '

1911.' You do not conlemplate that the manual t:railling should. actnally teach a trade ?-N 0, only dexterity of ham\. Then when a lad gets a place ill a factory Ire is uscful ;. he knows what sharp~edgell tools are, and he is somewhat prepared.

1912. Have yon any idea as to the cost of thi~ training ?-No ; I tlrougilt that as regards. defraying the cost a small fee mightLecha]'gec\ for tho UoD orthe tools. I do not think the parents would hesitate to pay that, and I dare say it might be managed that pound for pound could ~e raised locally; there would be no ll1tlicuhy; eitller through concerts or throllgh the municipal conncils they would get the money.

1913. Do you think it (lesimble to develop local illterest in the educational scheme ?-Ye~. 19 I 4. Is it possible ?-Yes, wlren ,\"e could get objects mauc. I trierl at A"eotvale ; 1 ball objects

made by the' children and placed all rOllnt! the vnriolls classes, and at the end of the year there was a sort of Lnaar held, and I noticed the keenest interest taken by the children ill buying' each others' productions nnd bartering thelli, allli I llare say if the larger schools Ilad thillgs made by the children they would bring in objects such as windmills, boxes, boats, and snch things that could be sold to defray the cost, and assist tire local contribution from the school.

1915, Wonlll it have thc e.ffect of increasing the interest, or creating an interest in the community generally in school work?-Yes, Yery materially. . '

} 916. Would t.hat have far-reaching consequences on education ?-Yes, I think it wonld be highly bellefici:ll to education. A great many boys who now play truant woulll' corne to sclwol if they got the chance to get a certificate to go to this place for manual tniining. , •

1917. \-Vould the ,york of tbe school anci tbe Department be assisted if there were a keen interest excited in that ,yay ?-Yes, lJrovided there is no sneh thing as the result system. The elementary science, I think, is useflll as far as we do it UOIV. As to instruction in elementary science in relation tei mining, agriculture, dairying, arid mantlfactures in special llistrict~, I think very highly of the idea of trying to teach what is adapted for 11 particular district: Teachers couU aUend lectnr('s by some itinerant expert, and they would sao II gain sufficient information to instruct the chilt1ren, if it were an agricultural district, say, on the power of .the soil, Hud what wonld be the hest way of t.reating, it, and what would be the effect if "lime were introdllc~d, llllll what soil wonld require lime; what effect' drainoge has Oli certain soil" and the best way of draiuing it; general information snch as that; in dairying district~, tlley would gain infor­mation as to tho composition of milk and the decomposition of cheese, the generation of gases, and so on. As to tbe use of text-books allli methods of imparting instruction, I think that should be left entirely to the teachers, and not have them all grinding out, 1Illles like barrel organs-an enthllsiastic mau will look out text-books for himself. The treatment of the elementary science subjects in the upper classes' as a separate sllbje~t is good--I shoilid give abont Hn hour or an hom aud a half a \\;eck to science. The

. difficulty of teachers being removed from one part of the colony to another, where their special scientific knowledge might not be, applicable, would not occur very often. When a teacher goes to a new district how hc stops two years; the teachers are intclligent enough men, aud. I do not thin], a man would have any dimclllty in taking up a new subject. If he went from an agricultural district to a mining or dairying district hc would t<oon acquire snfficient knowledgc to take the subject up. The lectures and teaching in the Trainillg College shonld be directed towards the alteratiops tha.t may be made in the curriculnm. The snujeet of drawing is one I feel very much interested in, and have'walched with great interest-I wonld like to sec nnytlrillg done that could be done to improve it still more. The present slandarll seems fair enough to tllC average classes, but I think we might improve it by not baving the younger 'children in the 2nd and 3rrl elasses confined so much to draw ing lines and c'llrvcs; they ought to be as soon as possiLle tanght to rlraw something from ,nature, if it were only a leaf,or some objects in the room, or sticks placed in different positions--let them draw those things as they see them. '

.,

95 Frederick Ba:ydeil, 11th August, 1899.

19i8. Do they not do tlu,t in up-eollnh')' school;; ?~They do in some plnces, bnt, there is too .mllch of the lllcchnnicnl hlen or giving out, hooks to a large clnHs, ami flat copies to drnw from, nnd the ehltdren do not take much interest in (,hem. ,It. would liven lip tllinga very much if some object were pnt up for them to draw. I luwo tried it and fOllnd the gl'eatest interest taken. As to tho I'dative vnlne of the work done by tile ;'egular visit,ing teachers, my eXI1Cl'ience is that where the sfuff teacher hns qualificd himself he does the wOl'k remalkably well, qnile lip to all requirement,s. '

1919. 'Vhat time would YOll give to lh'awing ?-At present we hnve t"ro lessons of three-quarters of all hour ench; I think it mi<Tht he extenJetl ill the Ilpper classes; it is sueh II useful suhject nnd comes into eycry depart.ment of lifo~ all(l fits hOY8 to tako Iheir placo. 1t gims them p;reat information and intorest in overythin,g thoy nre doing; if a YOllth want,s to COllYOY information to another it is done so readily by a sketch that it, is ol)e of [,he most,llsefl11 acquirements we,have, and ought. to be onconragea.

1920, Do you thin k it shol11d be as uni versal as writing?-Yes. As to the improvod standard of work as preparation for the highor work of art schoo~s, the children might he enco1ll'l1ged to do a little dosigning themBel yes, As a rule we give them llothing but the copy to go on, but they nre quite capable of being tallght to design somet.hing themsplves. They do thnt in Canada, I1nd I bolieve in tho Statos ; they 1II1ve made dosigns for carpet,s. A child, if it is encouraged, will, ;dt('r looking at tLo pnttern of a clll'tain, ebhorato on it, alId in wmetlliug of interest. As to the ait,eration in the programme rendored necessary by the intrOUlictioli Kimlergnrten, a great mnny things might be cut ont to make room for those more praot,ioall1nd llseful things. I think geography might be out out nearly altogether; it is n waste of n boy's time learning nll the towns on th8 Ganges when a sixp~nny atlns will gi\'8 him all the infornmtion he wants at any time. Theil advanced annlysis and grammar in the 6th class, as to whnt kind the extension clauses are, might be out nwny, and if he were taught to write a good essay with good spelling and good pellmllllship, and write it grammnticltlly, that would mnke room for more useful subjscts.

192]. Yon do not lleJicye in anlllysis at the age of ten .nnd n hnlf ?--:-No, I do not. ] 922. And you' woulU have a little less fUl'thel: Oll ?-'!\fuch le~s. 1923. Pmeticnlly, YOll think YOll wouid increase the time in science, ll1allunl trnining, and band nnd

eye training ?-- Yos. 1924. You think room might be made byelimillfl[.inll for those things ?-Yes. I think I would

minimiso history I1ml r00ts. as they call them. The next point is the systom of payment by results. A teacher whose s[llary IUl'gely depends upon the eXnlnination of his school by all inspector is tempted to forget tho trne moaning of education; he 11!l.lTOW8 his field of work down, and ellgelldors u system of oram -simply gets as 'many facts as he can iuto a chilli's IlOad, hoping thoy will stop there until aftor the oxamination. J wo.nhllmil tho tilly with delight when ~t is abolished; it has done a denl to cnt out a lot of the entbusinsm that I had, nnd it operat.es vory badly upon the child. I think children would be mnoh hr<ppier in school, and the teaehcl's would work with much more !moyancy'and mucb more effect. As to its probable effoct upon the lIew >lllbjects proposed, if we introduoed the new subjects they could not be gauged oflleiolltly by the present system of result"'.

1925. How would YOll test tho work if the exalllinations were aholished ?-By tOBting, fI;; they do ill Cannda and otJwr plaoes-tosting the mothods nud style of the touohillg. If yon lmvo good ilisciplinc, good healthy tOile, good working tone in the sehoo,l, ellildren illlereste!l antl nnxions to answer and get information (which oould be soen by tho inspector) good result's mllilt follow.

1926. W"onld thnt not involve an illcrensod inspectoral staff ?:-It would cut away half of it. An inspector now spends nbout two days making up clericnl work for passes of the children in It large sohool, pntting dowll thoso t,hatpass aud those that fuil.

1927. Do you think it, wOHld also lessen the clerical work to be done in the Departmont ill adding np and talmlatillg those partiollhll's?-Yes, it woul(l take n'YHY the b111k of tbat..

] 928. It would nil ow moro money to be spent on teaching ?-The sohool would get much more benefit from his inspection, and the time of the inspector would not be takon up with Ill! that olerionl work.

1929. 'What staff would be required for this new work ?-The staff at present is not adequate, nnd would lmve to be increased for the 110W work; I think an assistant and a pupil teacher for erery 100 children is a' good hasis.

1930. Would it require n larger staff to cflrry 'out t.llC new work efficiently than to .earry,out the old work efficiently ?--Providing tho result, system were done away with I do not think so; it wonld' requiro all a,sqistant and a pupil tcacher to ench 100 ohildren.

, ] 931. What are your "iews as to the,oertificate of compet¢ncy for pupil teachers ?-I would like them to bc eXl1mined 011 what they will be reqnired to teach afterwards, nnd anything that is not wanted for that should be cut out. I think they nre rathor overbmdened with euolid, Ilnd algobm, nnd snch things. The amnlgmnation of schools is thoroughly bad; it llas :t damuging effeet on the chi:dren, nod hilS It ruinous effect on their euncation in my opinion. A mall JOBes his identity altogether, nothing is done properly; the childrell, when they are IU'oUloted from what is edIct! tJlC adjunot, havo to leM0 their own distriot and go to tho othor, booause onlY'cl[ls806 under Ii certnin age flre allowed at the ndjunet. The district round tho 8cl:ool t,llf,t is an adjunct has its own eL1ncational wants, and roquires looking after in 11 way thnt call only b8 donc by its own heml master and the teachers that really helong to it" and when a school is an adjnnot that work is neglected; the muster has not the time. '

1932. Whnt do you think of optionnl snhjeets?-I approve of the idea very much. I think if n man has a hohby in any part,iculnr diroction it is a good thing to let the tlistl'ict have the benefit of it ; he would be more likely to take an interest in that thau in a subject that he wns compelled to take np.

H133. Do yOll consider tue Education Dep::irtment 1ms heen as progressive ns our educational system ought to he ?-N el, I do not; notahly, we have only reoently had the Dcp'lrt'ment introducing those soienoe subjects for us, and neither the children nOI' the teachers have takeil the interest in thcse sllhjccts until reoent,]y that they do at home.. ..

1934. Do yon thiuk it'would be better if Ihe toachers were encouraged to put recommendai:iolls 8S

to changes Defore the Ministor?-Yes, I think if it could be dono it would be highly beneficial to n5. 1935. Do you think the teaeLers would be ahmys aJive to new methods in other parts of the

world ?-Yes, tlio teachers Hre very much so; in fnet most teachers that I lmow are meo, who are anxious to introduce subjects' of, interest that are now to the schools if they can possibly do so, and I tbink if they were enooUl'aged to' approaoh the Department-if' there W,IS it sympathetic touch between the Department and them-it would do good.

Frederick Hayden, llth August, 1890. 96

1936. You cannot say tlm.t there is a sympathcnc touch betweon them now?-N"o, I. cannot say that·.tbere is.

1937. By i111'. L011g.-What time is gi\'en to composition in t.l1C. 5tb and 6th classcs now ?·-:rhe .time varies ill" the different schools-some of them i!ivc half· an-hour I], week and SOUIC fln hOUl' .

. ]931). Would it be necessary to hlcreasc th~ til1lC for that to gpt tbc standard yOll rnentioned, if we took off the formal grammar ?-No, we took olI t,hose formal subjects with the view of making rOom for haud and'eye trainiug, , . . 1939 .. YOH believe you could get.that stnndanl of English composition with the preseut system ?-

I bclicye we conld. 1910. A previous wit.ness said thl],t halld lwd eyc t.rainillg should not he introducell into schools

with an attendance of less than 100-do yon agree with that ?-I undcrstood the witness· to say that 'Kindergarten shonlel llOt bc introduced into scllOois of less than 100-1 think Kimlergn1·ten conld go into all schools.

1941. Should hand ami eye training go· into all schools ?-To all schools that.. are within an easy ritdius of eelltrf'S where tile expert could deliver lecturettes, so as to give the teaeher;l ill t,hose schools n,n opportunitY,of IJeeoming acquaintcd both wit,h hallLl ancl eye work nnd special subjects.

. 1942. You are in fnvpur of dairying imd agricultural work being taken up-would yOll also have a cert(1in amoLlllt of time devoted to experimentn,] work in physics ?-No, I would let I.hat go, and let dairying fiupersede it. . .

1943. By frh . .Tenkins.-What is a.bout the age at which yon wonlll commence ,to tcach mOllel draw­ing ?-My experieuce i~ that a child can begin at ahont nine or t.CIl. The efforts are crude at first, but I look at it ill this way-if you give a child a pencil and a piece.of papcr or a slate, olle of the first thing~ he will do will be to try nud draw somet,hing that hc, knows, and if that induces that effort, we must tryaud help it on ; that is why I au vocate dmwillg from an object nt so early au age"-with eR,reful teaching, or COllrse. ,.

1944. You would reduce the amonnt of pure copying work ?-Yes, cOllsiderably. . 1945, What, in your opinion, is the proper time It lcsson should last in t,11C younger eJasses ?-I have

practically proved ill my school the great ad\'nntnge it is to get children to go ont and dmw on the board themselves, and !lot to draw nll the time in !t book. I think in the l!trge schools we should have !t board, or slate, right along the whole length of the wall, !LL an easy height for the chilliren; let 'tbe model be put on that, nlHl the children come out in groups of thrce or fOilf, amI draw it witll the whole sweep of the hand -we want t,hem to elmw from the shoulder, not from the wrist. The ehildrel\ get, good practice ill that way with the hand and eye training, but as we are situated in the schools it is Hot "'practieilbl(~, unless tbo slate extelld~ all along the' wall. ' .

, 1946. By the Chai1'man.-Have YOll a slate of that killd in yOlll' school ?-Yes. , 1947. Did the Department providc it ror yon ?-I founll it there when I went, and I immediately

adopted the plan-yoll cannot do that, wit,h easels very w€ill, yon mllst bave it all along. . 1948. By Mr. Jcnllins.-How would you t,ench tlmt hlaek-board drawing 1-:-111 small gr.oups, There

will be a group of desk children drawing from It flut copy, and there will be groups of three or fom children in different places drawing from the model in front of them; they are dmwiug on the board liS large as they can, and when thcy hltve donethey.go back to fheil' Se!Lts and draw it in their hooks, and the others at the desk corne out and take t,heir turn. I find that they take gl'm~t interest in H, audit gives them freedom and boldness of stroke.

1949. Whltt is about the age at which yOll commence that class of drawing ?-About eleven. In regard to the length of lesson, I tl~illk you eaimot get through very much work nnde'r three-quarters of fill bOlll' ; half-an-hour is not enongh, except for the very young children .. say. bctween nine and ten. ,

. H)50. How long should the lesson last for the elder children ?=-Three-ql1l1rters of an hour, exccpt for the allvance(l class, und thcn when they are drawing froll1 the nudel or shading they might· have an hour. .

19.')1. How mallY Jessons a week wOllld yon give them ?-Not less than two, more if I could. 1952. Is the present standard of the teachers' examination in drawing satisfactory?-It seems to

satisfy requiroments at present, but I think·t,hel'e shonld· be a lif.tle more drawing of things from objects t,ha.n there is now.

1953. Do your teaohers get any special instruction in hlack-board drawing ·?-No, I think they should have, lind I also tllink the ,children Ilbollid draw from natllral objeets-the ·things they see. These .are sOllIe things that were llrawn in mf school at Aseotvale--[producing tile same].

1954. Have you had allY practice with memory dmwing?-No. , 1955. Have you thought of its educational Y!l.lue ?-Yes, I think it would be a very good thmg to

iutroclllee; it is highly instructive. , 1956. How wonld you introdnee it ?-It is new to me-I think I would try it on paper first. I

tbink as highly of it as of tho accornp1is.LlIuent of being able (,0' play without having to curry mllsic abollt. 19.')7. ,You havc a very high opinion of the specially qualified infant mistress I-Yes, I think she 0

is indispensable to J~ large school-we should create them as fast as we can, and give them overy encourage­ment. The infant mistress mllst be lively, buqyant, ablc to sing, and have SOllle other qualifications ..

1958. Do yon think the infant mis~ress would !tlways get uilder a sympathetic h,oad ?-Yes, I think there should bc a sympathy.

1959. How far would yon give her a free hand ?-I would give her a free haud to a very great extent-I would make her pl'acticltlly imlependent of the head master within reason. Infant tCltching is practically a depa.rtment by itself, amI a ](tdy who has laid herself out, for special study in H should have a good denl of her own say in the mnttel'.

The witness withdreUJ. •

reter Drummond, s~vorn and examine·d. 1960.· By the Cltairman.- What are 'you ?-Head master of the North :lYIelbourne State School. 1961. Which points iu the synopsis do you wish to emphasize ?-I agree with the views expressed

as to Kindergt>rten; that it 'is practicable in our large·schools, bnt not Kindergarten as it is generally unller-8~tood~ It ,would have to be ·modified to suit our requircments. Onr furniture would have to be altered to suit the work.

97 Peter Druull11ond. 11th August. 1800.

1962. What is your opinion with regard to hand and eye training ?-I believe in hand and eyo training, and I believe it is practicable in onr schoois with an atteudance of over 100, and very desir!lble. The time to be devoted to it at present should be about one hom pel' week-not more, cOllsidering the other subjects we have OJ] the pl'ogrlllUme. After fI, time it might be fOllJld desirable to increase it, bnt at present that wonld be quite snfficient, because we would have to work our way into it. I cannot see how hand and eye tmillillg is to be carried out in small schools, because so mauy of them are nnde r only ouc teacher. Of courso, teachers must be trained for this work, but, at the same time, they can make a I.oginning, even in the absence of experts, and that, beginning will not bo thrown away, bocause if we make a begin­ning, and see what it means, when the expert comes we will he able t.o understand the difficulties, and will the more readily grasp the best way of teaching lhe subject. I have beeu looking into the work, measuring it, ami doing >ome of it personally, to see what itl'eally means. ,

1963. You do not agree with the delegates' from the association on the sabject; they said they thought it would be better for the work to be postponed until the expert came; YOll think a start might be mude atonee? -I do. As to the training of teachers, that is a ,mattei' on which I know no more pmctically than the man in the street. I ean see many ways, hnt I do not, think I CRll from personal knowledge- enlighten YOll on that head. As to mauual training, I uuderstand it to he (,(lol work. The training of the hand and eye with very simple tools, possibly a penknife or a gouge, and net,work, weaving, and like occllpations, that need very few tools, can bo carried Ollt in school. :rhe great idea is to improve the education of the cl:tild by means of hand ,training. ¥anua.l training i~ tool work. I do not think that such work can be tatight in State schools, but it should be taught ill properly fitted-np centres. Elementary wood work, such as chip carving, and that sort of thiug, can be taught in a school, bnt anything that requires tools to be uscd cannot.

1964. What are yolir sources of information on tltese matters ?-1 have read a great deal, and I know what is done in other places. I think a great deal of good might be dono if the colouy were dividc([ into districts ami sUQ-distriets, for the purpose of teaching agriculture, dairying, bee-farming, poultry rearing, viticulture, and similar ind nstrios sui table' to the parI icular districts, and tlle te{!chers in those districts were encouraged to gi ve instruction in tho15eindustries.

196.5. Have yon had any experiQnce olltside of Mclbourne? - Y e8, I have been in a position where 1 could have given good instruction in fmit-growing and vegetable aud flower gardening, but in those days snch a thing was not tbought of, and if I had thonght of it my motive wonld have been misunderstood, but it was quite practicable, and I would have been glad to do it. ,

1966. And you think that applies to a portion of the staff now?-It applies to other teachers now as much us it did to me. Where these special subjects are taken up I thillk t,bey should t.ake the place of what is called science teaching, and also of hand and eye training in the State schools.

1967. You would not have one cast. iron system of primary technical instruction all over the colony? -Certainly not.. There would he IlO difficlilty in the case of one teaeher being removed and anotilel' taking his place. I think it would ,be quite practicahle to· make a regulation that if a vacancy took place in a school \V here, say, dairying was taught, preference should he given to a teacher to fill the vacnncy who was qualifie~ to impart instrllction in that subject" so that olle man should not corne and teach one 8ur.ject and anot,her another. 1 t.hink too, very strongly, that short and popular tcxt-books should be pr'.3pared. I do not mean that the teacher should teach strictly according ·to them, but the general lines should be d9fined. Very ofteh a fnrmer wants information, and while there is a mass of information ill a luose form he does Lot know where to look for the partic~111ar piece of information that he wants.

1968. Do yon want text·books for the farmers ?--The boy of to·day is the farmer of to-morrow. The Department could issue leaflets to keep farmers up to date, and if Ihose were tnken bome it would bo the best moans of carrying information into the houses.

1969. What are yo II l' views on the subject of drawing ?-1 think that the teaching at the present. time is very discnrsiYe, and if It proper programme is issued, and I believe t.hat is going to be done, it will be of great assistance to the schools, and help to place that branch of school work on a satisfactory foot.ing. 1.am not in fn vonr of increasing the time given to drawing, because It great deal of the wood work, &c., 1 hat can be and should be taught iu the schools necessitates careful lind aecllrate drawing, and that is really a drawing lesson of the very best kind.

1970. Are you satisfied that the programme can be 80 altered as to permit the introduction of the llew work 1-Yes, by decl'easing the amouut required from the children all along the Une, except, perhapl?, in the upper 6th, tlHl ,~'ork could. be taught.

1971. By llfr. Jenkins.-Do you t.hink the 6th stage is the easiest one for the child at the present time 1-In the old days there used to be a lower 6th and an npper 6th, comprising those who stayed one year and those who stayed two years respectively. Those who stayed two years ollght to IJe able to do the whole programme, but for the first ye:!r there ought to be !til oasier examination.

1972. By the Chairman.-Are you in favonr of the system of payment by results ?-I do not agree with all the evidence that has been given Oll t.hat subjcct. It is all very well for teachers to say " abolish results," but if that system is abolished wlmt are we to have ill its place? .

1973. Then you do not object to the result system 7-I do object to it;, not personally, because I could not cxpect to be so well off uuder any othor ~ystem, but I object to it on behalf of the children. I want something practical. I Sl1Y keep results, but keep them in the same way as t,hey are kept in England. They may say they are aholished there, find 80 they are, but in a wily tlley arc not. Sir Evelyn Oak ley says that in about 90 per cent. of their schools the annual examination has been abolished, and the renmilling tenth have yet to prove their right to be inspected without indiyiduni examination. The way in which a school is now tested in England is that the inspector, or one of his assistauts, visits it withont lJolice two or three times throughout t,he year, and ~pends the whole .lay in observing the teaching of the work of every class in all the subjeets taken. He pays great uttentioll to the discipline, tone, and good manners of the children towards the teachers and low(l,rds one another. My idca of the way ont of the difficulty is for the schools' to be classified as good, wenk, and excellent; I would allow the schools classified as good or excellent to be examined in the proposed fashion and thoronghly, and schools tlmt fire weak would have to be examined individually until they proved their right to be examinod under the liew system, exactly as they do in England. It.is not really abolishing results; it is merely getting rid of the sting, and all the evils of results, without losing the control of the schools. I would also say that if a-5= H

Petel' DI'UllllllOnd, 11th August, 1899. 98

school ceases to be classified as good or excellent it shoulli be maae liable to he examined individually If, however, a school, thl'ough some reason or auother, should pass an indifferent test, and there was gooO reason shown, it s110111(1 not lose its class.

HJi4. What is your opinion as tolhe efficiency of the school staffs to carl'y out the new work?­,Ye are promised an illCrel1Se of the stdI', nn~l we need au increase. For my part, I weleollle the promised alterat.ioll in th3 staffing of schools gladly, amI if it is fouod insllHicient Oil trial we will then ask for more. As to the alterations ill examinalions for pupit teachers, I have something to sl"1 about that. i;Ve want highly qualified teachers. for Kindel'gnrten work; lately, we have had IJ'ltin, euclid, and algelmi put 0~1 for pupil teachers, and I eertainly think that in the case of those who have all nptitude for Kindcrgarten and for infant school teaching, a special qualification in infant work should be taken as an alternative to 3. qualifi~ cation in Latin, (meliel, a,nu algebra. In tim' way we would get a number of young teachers with it very good ide!t of infant l,eacbing.

uno. You would ellconr:tge special nptiLllde ?-Yes, In reference to the training of infant mistresses it would not answer all the purposes, bllt in 'the case of youllg teachers who have shown them­selves spe'eil).lly qnnlifiell for infant teachillg 1 wonld give them all assnred position so 1011g liS t,hey liked to discharge those duties. At present a lad v who is 1m 8th ebss assistant must leave town'and take a COlllltl~y school lit the end of two years, evell tho~gh her qualifications are exclnsively for infant teac,hillg, and she is, quite willing to stay in town am!- take up the work with which she i,s' best acquainted.

1976. Doe3 that I1treat t.he efficiency of tHe teachillg ?:--If 11 lady is, specially quulified for infant teaching she has not scope for her energies in a small cOllut,ry school, and large schools have to take an all-ronnd Indy as 8th assistl111t in her place, illstead of OIle with the special quulificutions. ' "

1977. H{!,ve you ~lly views a8 to t.he independence of the inft'bllt mistress of a Ja!:ge school-should she have a free hanll ?-I have alw'ays worked so smoothly alld well with the lady teacher in charge of the infan t school that I think there is no nocessity for that. Any sensible man would give them all the free ham] they clesired, . ,

1978. Wh::tt is yonr opinion of rhe aIllulgamation of schools ?-1 bave two schools that have been rimalgamated; they are about half-a-mile apart, Hod I am away from each s~hool for a certain length of ti~. "

1979. i;Vlm!, are the di~advantages ?--Pmctically I htbour noder no disHlhantage except that I am away from the main school for one 01' two hours at a time for three or four days a week, and the main school has not, my presence wben it ought to have it.

1980. Would YOll regard it as seric,lIs if instead of Imlf-a-mile you wore Ilo mile aJ1<l a hnlf away ?­Yes, vcry, hecallse I take It great deal of tho toa,ching ,york myself, and lhe school is deprived of my services when I ought to be there 'attending to my Ihrties. ,

1981. What is your opinion of oprionitl subjects ?-:-I klio\y very little about the English system of optional subject.s. : .

1982. Would you le;we Ollt history 01' geograplly altogether, or make the teaching of them optioual? -I would Jertyc nOlle of them ont, but I would modify the way of examination. At present they are taken as individnal subjeets, and my opinion is that history, geography, find generallessolls ought to be

, , takellllos eIns" lessons, Om eX.lmination now ill tltm:e subjects is mostly as to \Vhat the children know, instead of a~ to the method of instnictioll, and the examination in geogrAphy, history, l1nel general lessons onght to be on the mode of tuition-if the proper time is given, and if the inspector is sat.i"fied that t.hey Imve been properly tallghL fullmurks ought to he give!l' ,

1983. By J}f1-. Loug.-You' say that if the resn)t system in its present fOl'm were aholished you would clossify the sehools as weak, good" and excellent; in England, ill tile ease of it school, say, uuder the Leeds Boanl, as far us the Education Department is concerned, it. will pay a grant to that. school,' if the

. school is excellent, in proportion to the number of children in nttemlUllee, but in Ollr ease would you give the c1assifielltion to the school or to the teacher ?-I would give it to the school and to the teachers. I would pay the teach!"rs a lump sum by way'of results 011 the avernge of their las,t three years' percentage, Ie a teuche!' changed to a new school, he shoulcl keep his rate of pay while reportecl on as ex.cellent, le~ him take the percclltnge of the school. If he goes t'o a school that is liable for iLldividual examination

, he also keeps llisraie of ,pay \vhile reported on as excellent. Yon must preserve 'the percentage so loilg as the teacher is paidJby results, though 'n10dified, but let. the teacher be paid on the average of t.he last three years, so long as the school is reported on as gOOl] or excellent. TIlCre is no difficulty in' workipg it out. If a new teacher 12'0('8 into a country school, he is examined until he is classified as !. good OJ" excel­lent, aud then the school is free from individual examination, I think there should also be the power of giving in speeiid eases a special percentage to teachers, both higher and lower.

1984. By'Mr. Polts.-Whnt experience lmve you had in np-country schools ?-I was up country for ~yffi~. .

1985. You are in favour of speci[tlized subjects being taught in schools, will not the existing system of paymelit by reSlllts be a serious drawback to the sUCCtC~~f~l.I!,eacbillg of tbose subjects ?~They ougItt to 1)0 what are called C!ILSS subjects; if the inspector finds that the proper time is taken, that the children display all intelligent interest ill the m:itter, and the snbject ishandlctl intelligently, the sllbject 'should be given fllll mark", !llId the teacher shonld get t,he bonm;. ' , ,

1986. 'Would 1I0t the abolition of the system o~ payment by fesnlts rIo awaywith th~t incentive?­The modification suggested by me, because tho tencher would teaeh that suhject'well, in order to have his schooLclassed as good or excellent.

The witness lcithdrew.

George Robinson, sworn and examinell.

1987 . .By tlte Ghairrnan.-,Yhat are you ?-Master of the EasL' Melbourne Grammar School. I am 11 certificated teacher of New Sontll Wales and also of Victoria. I had a short experience of teaching in Engla.nd, too. I have had 30 years' experience in Victoria, 1lo1ld 'eight years in, New SOllth Waies before tha t. I CHme to Victoria in 1865 .

.1988. ~When did YOIl leave the Department ?-On the occasion of the reduction, when we were sqncezed Oilt. As regards the Kindergarten system, I have heard what the previous witnesses h:1.\'e saiti, antI 1 agree with their ~vidence.in a great measure, but I had a little experience of it ill Maryborongh when

9H George Robinsort, 11th August, 1899.

t had the Mary11orongh Slate school. III 18!H-2 I sent dowll to :Mr. Brorhibb and asked him wouhl he allow me to introduce the Kindergarten syslem: am1 wonld he send up a tmined teacher to gi ve instruction; he not only did that, but he got thc de,;l", n.nd uther appliancce llecessllry for tbe proper carrying ont of the Kindergarten ~ysteill. It was ri success, 80 far as eOlleemetl Mury borollgh during the time I wnB there; not only was it It success, bnt it was yery popular among the parents of the children. As 80011 as the system was established;r invited generally fiJi plHcnts who had any inlerest in (;ilncation to come and see the system at work, and the school 011 that occusiol1 was crowiled, and the parents went away simply delighted. What 1 found in addition to the training of t.l1O haml nnt! eye was that there wns !\ considerable amouut of moral influence gained by t.hose ehildren-they purchased those gifts, as they Wf're cnlletl, in order to practice at home what they had been taught. at, sehool, ami the home life, 80 far a5 I could under­stand, was very mllch improved. The drilclrcn, iustead of mnldng mild pit,S, wonltl make such things as we have seen to-day. The general effect on the whole of the infant school was bellefidal ; us to the teachers, we had a special teacher, and I enCOlll'ngrtl the juni(Jr tcncll('rs Hlul others ellgagecl ill the infllnt school to learn the s,YRtelll, nnd to malw thembeh-es acqnainted wilh it, so thut when tho. expcrt ,,'ns with­draWl! the husiness of the Kintlergarten I'ystem could be cnrrietl Oil; they readily learnt, the wo1'I<, entered iuto it thoroughly, nnd when I left the fehool it ,,;I1S a llart of the system of the school. There wns some doubt as to the result nt the examination time, but as ffll' ns I was concerned the results increased at the end of the period, th(;l'cfore I think it was silllply a fear which was not realized.

1999. Dr. 1l1acFadand.-HolY long "ms t,];e with yon ?-A bout seyen months, I think; I am not sure. to the hlind amI eye tmilling and the manual truining, every mnn at the present day mnst be in favour of those j I am, and so are most teacher", so far liS I know, but I see some tlifficulties in illtroililcing thcm in a very large extont ill the smaller ~chools where Olle he;,d toacher is pcrhaps by himself with 40 or 50 und there are three, rour, alH1 fiye classes to keep going. As a young mar: Ilmve had to <1:; t11:1t work lllYEelf. and I found that I was more exhausted nt the elld of tbe day's work with elasses of fonr standards than'I w~s when I \yas leaching the Yarra, Pl.!'k upper 6th clnss with 90 children ill it, bllt 0.11 the same stallrlflrd. I quite think thnt tile teaehers would lIllcler that wcrk, prc.vided the resnlt system were abolished.

1990. By the Chai?·ma1t.-Assnming that the master understood hanu and eye nnll manual work, nlthongh he was the sole master, woult! not the faet tbit it was different from the other work ],e rather a relief tv him-wouhl not it be a relief to him to go to it ?-If the re~ult system is abolisheu yon can put it in. .

1991. 'Would not it be a relicfto a man to go nIll1 snpcrinteIHl wood IYork in 1he class for n cbange? I agree that the teachers woultllike it, and it, wonld be n relief; but what, would the other classes he doing that were not doing that work. When a man is Ihe only teacher it i6 a difficult thing for him t,o tettle his work in a school of that ~ize ; hc is by hi.mself'-perhnps in the afternoon the workmistress may be there for an hour- I (lare say it could be mHnnged, bllt the tencher \-vonltl dread the eflect upon his results.

1992. A6s11111ing the resnlt system were aLolished r-Then, I think, it shonld be done. I do not know whether Mr. Brodribb told you that there is a school building in Latrobe-street unoccupied Ly the Department., It iii let to the Salvntion Army, but Mr. BrodribL instructed Mr. Dennant to visit tlwt building and take with him Mr. Campbell, or the Workingmen'" College, to see if the bnilding was suitable; it WfiS agreed that it ,,·as suitable, but :Mr .. CamplwJI was arraid lhat it wonld interfere with the Working­men's College.

1993. By 111.1'. JenkiI18.- You think this instruetion could be cnrried OUL in yery small schools Yes, and it would be a relief to a great extent; when the wOl'kmistl'ess Yisit~ those bush schools it might be done. .

1994. By the Ghai1vrnan.-Yon say if the resnlt system '\'I'ere abolished the mannal training c~uld be applied to all se,llOols ?.::.... Yes. As to my own school, 011 Wednesday af'ternoons some of my boys go to the Workingmen's College; it does 110t interfere with my work; they go and learn carpentering and other work. I 11l\\'e arranged with the parents thul IJICre shaH be no new work taken on that afternoon, so that, they shall not lose anything by going a\vny ; some snch plan as that might be adopted in an ordinary schooL

1995. 'Vhnt time would you give to mannal trnining?-I dOllot think you could do mannal training Yory well under one !Jon!' anll a half per week; two hams ill the week wonld be better; I would take some­thing off the drill for t.hat.

1996. Is there finy other part of the Clll'l'iClllum you wonlU alter ?~-As to elementary scienlle, 1 think"that is tanght, as far as it can be taught with the staff educated to the extent the st,aff is at the pre8ent time; if you increase the 'knowledge of the staff yon may inerease the standard of work dOlle.

1997. Do YOll think the instrnctiOI1 in ell'mentnry science should be vnrieu in the difi'el'Cnt districts? Teaehers might take alternate courses. A teacher may say_a I will go into a mining district, nnd my instruction sbull be snch as to prepm-e me for a mining district."

199E. Do YOII think th~ science teaching should have reference to the industry of the district?­Undoubtedly. I have lived in a mining dist.1'ict, ill au agricllltnral distriet, and in a viticultural district, und I have taught in nil those uistl'icts, and I I'Rye been dceply iuterested in them and in the people.

1999. Do you think sehool work would be benefit ell by the clmnge ?-I am eertaiu it ,yould. Teachcrs might be nllowed to take nlternative courses. It would not he necessary for a teacher to get a miuule knowledge of mining, llgrieulture, c1airying, and everything else; no one man would be competent to do tbat, but a man may lmve an interest in mining or farmers. I know many teachers are the SOilS of miners or fanners, nml those teachers want to be in a distl iet where they elm a larm ill 1l11dition to their school, so that when they retire they can go to their farm and be able to manage it, as there are no pensiolls 1lOW.

2000. Do yon think the teachers should hnve a free hand as to text-books ?-1 think it is necessary that there' ~hon!d be some text-book to ease the teacher's work.' Prac!ical teachers kllOw that they have to be continually making 11otes. You give the lessons; children are' only children, and many parts of the lesson must be commi tied to momory, aull unless yon get those notes properly prepured and digf'sted your work will be in a measure thrown aw:ty. That work can be looked up nt night. A text-book is almost a lIecessity.

2001. Would yon prescribe the text-book, or let the teacher choose it ?-1 would let him exercise his own descretioll.

HZ

George lloblnsoll} 11th August, 1899. 100

2002. What are your views on (!rawiug· ?-1 had to teach drawing, amI my greatost dlfficnlty was to prevent my ignorance being knowH to the chi/dl·Cll. I wOlild have to llraw my sketch before the <.:lass 'camc in, or 1 would haye made a mess of it, bnt the Daixll·tl1lent wished tllis ',vork done, amI I tried to llo my alit! to disguiso my ignorancc fl'orn the children. At (,he same time, I must say' the work ill the Ilands of cxperts was bound to he better if the visiting teacher3 were lliseiplinarians,whieh they were not, as a mlc. ,. 2003. fs not that a merc qnestion of the way the ol'llinary teacher is origitlally instructed ?-It is a

difficuH thing to get tea,·hcn to teach drawitlg; it is not every olle who CIIll draw. You cannot i1l0rettse the drawing standfll'd tothe same extent in all schools. You may increuse it in Melbonrne, wherc you CrLll get expert teachers, but yon canllot, inerease it in thc country schools.

200!. If, a pupil teacher is WelllrLught, originally, he can lcarn sufficient drawing for him to teach intelligently ?-Y c~, not so that they will become rLrtist~-t,hey might be able to sketch a groul!(l plan of a farm, or cven an elevation in a l"ongh way. As to alteration in the programme rendereti lle(~e~s:Jry by the in~rodllction of subjects untier X os. I to 5 in the synopsis, teachers have as mnch as they can tlo wi th t.he

sl!111tiard-Yl)u eannot iucrelLse that standard unlcss you increase t,be staff of the school. 2005. What would you le!t\"c ont ?-I would not leave out anythir,g; 1 wonld reduce the standard.

I do not think nllalysis should be left out. 2006. It is ';ssumed you are not goillg to increase the hours of school work, that beillg so you must the time for some othcl' subjects '/-YOll must haye optiollal subjects. . 2007. You arc satisfied that room CUI! be made ?-I think quitc sufiieient instruction ill Ellglish and

arithmetic can be gil·en by redlleillg the amount-l would alter thmw ariLhmetical questions that are not , rational quest.iolls at all.

2008. You condemn the ofpayrnent by results ?~Yes, I h~ve had a great deal to do with that. 1 was nn.cxhibitio!l grinder, and iieholarship grinder-I have got more scholarships thnll any othcr man in the service; that is, the old State school scholarships that Professor Pearson established. OUI'

result eXtlminat,ioll used to take at the end of Novemher 01' the first week in December; the scholar­ship examination would take place about t,hree weeks afterwards. I have had, time after time, a child fail in one to four subjects at, the resnlt exnminatiol1 and gnin a Beholarship three weeks afterwards, tIla.t was a eommon (}ccurrence-I never regarded whether they failcd nt the rcsult exnmination, I kllew the qnality of thc child. .

2009, Do yoa kllow that tlmt was the experiellce of other people as well 'I-I cannot say I (Io, that my experience was wider than Illost of'thcm ill t.hat way. . .

2010. Have you had half-a dozt'n such cases r~Thcre was neyer an examination in which 1 did not have somc cases ill which they baa failed in I he result examinatioll and gained scholnrships afterwards, the examination for which was fm more difficnlt. I have knowt! them iail ill It6 many as foul' subjects out of' about eight or nine literary subjects, and tlie very same child would go up tllree weeks afterwards and get a scholarship. ,

2011. The effect of that would be 'that, yon would he judged 10 havc failed to teach a child who gained onc of their. sellOlarships '?-·Yes. When I say" abolish results," I do not say abolil!h results, I mean'aboli3h payments by resldts. Result payillents do not exist in New South Wales, and .You will find them in Hll1.ny suhjects far in advance of Ollr schools; the schools wcre examined in this way-the iuspect<Jr would dictate three words to tlle class all round, alll! his record willllot be whet,her Dick, Tom, nnd Harry passed; he will take the average of the class_ Then, wit,h the examination iJyother .subjects, sometimes writtlln, most frequently oral, he will put 20 or 25 qnestions. I do not kllow whetiter tile inspecturs of this Department could do it withollt training; he will lmve 25 'questiolls where we h:we two. There is an 'idea that time would be saved ill writing np this work-that is not so; thilt. time 'is spent in the thorough examination of the school. Thc difficulty under the new system would be that all our inspeetol"s have bcen trained uuder this pernicious system of p:tymellt by results, and that method of estimaling a school, and to them it i,; perfectly ea~y, but if the inspel~t()rs had to do what they hayc to do in New South Wales, stand up ml(l give ten minutes or a qnarter of all hour, and give a yariety of questiolls, they would find they had quite enough to do, and it would be fa'r heavicr work than they havc to do now. As to tbe efficiency of the staff of a school to cany out the lIew work, the stnffs will have to be trained; the work they do not kllow they mnst learn. I pointed out to the Departmeut tllnt all those school bnildiugs are built upon a certain kind 01 staffing, oue assistant, nnd (;lle pupil T.Cacher, but they !tlter their st.affing, and the consequence

a room that is built for two classes has to be divided among three or four, and there is great confusion ami loss of power; it is trying to make a round Reg fit' a squlLre hole, All the buildings are built upon the old stalling plan, and now they hayc introduced a new staff, and it cannot be carried out. The teachers nave very difficult work to perform to make thc ,vork come fairly upon the staff.

2012. Did yon ever have nn nmalgamntecl schooI'?-No; I know one school where the (eacher visits thc othet, school once in ·tLre" weeks; w hat good is he to the other school? He says-" I eun rely upon my teacher there," and so he call; but amlLlgamated schools are a mistake. There are monitors in teaching 74 and 68 children for £10 a ycar; that is 3s. 8d. per child per annum, and the average is £2 4~. or £2 5s.; that is where the average eouics down, hy employing young people to teach those youlIg ehildren. '.

2013. I,suppose it is imposli'ible to introduce t.he new system" efficiently with staffs of the prcsent streugth ?-Yes. 1 think the proposal you have in view.is a step in the right directh.m ; there is too mueh mental work, ami the practical work will be very beneficial; it will I,tlrn the winds of boys and girls from mere pon work to somet.hing that will be better for them hereafter. L have had boys in my school who wanted to go to Dookie, and I have hnt! to wait eight, Hille; and ten months before they could get admission there.

2014. Do you find a fair Iiumber of yonI' pupils desire to avail themsehes of the Agricultural College ?-They do; the children would rather do it; the parents sometimes oppose it. I have sent t,wo doctor's sons to [)ookie, the son of a brewer, and the son of a merchant.

2015. Do you think if those eolleges were multiplied there would he a demand on their accommo- . dation ?-U!l(loubte(lly, if the people could get their coiJdren into them, but they cannot.

2016. ITa ve YOIl t.hought Ollt the sllbje~t· of contillllation schools as u connecting link between the prim:Lry s~hool and the technical schools ? ~ Yes, that'illvolves the scholarship business. : With regard to