Yarra·Jn Y WTam [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Mechanics' Institute Bill. 481

cannot do otherwise than give it our hearty support.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time, and

passed through its remaining stages.

Y ARB-AM Y ARRAlVI l\1ECHANICS' INSTITUTE BILL.

The Order of the Day for the second reading of this Bill was read.

The Hon. J. P. JONES (Minister (If Public ,\Vorks).-I move-

That all the Standing Orders relating to private Bills be sU8pended in relation to this Bill, and that this Bill be treated as a public Bill.

The mOotion was agreed to. The Han. J. P. JONE~.-I move~ That this Bill be now read a. second time.

In the year 1860 a resident of YarraID, now deceased, named John Carpenter, gave a block of land for the purposes cf a mechanics' institute, school room, meet­ing room, .and lecture rooUl, and vested it in' trustees, who were to hold it for and on behalf Oof the inhabitants, land­holders, and ratepayers of Yarram Yarram for all time. On the pro:perty is erected the present mechanics' institute and fr.ee library. This has been managed by a committee annually elected by sub­scribers or members of the institute, and conducted in 3tCCordan.ce with the rules of the iru3titute. In time the trustees died, and it was found that to elect new ones would be difficult and costly, as the pr.o'­visions of the d.eed for such election were out .of date and unworkable. To enable smooth working a provision is made in the Bill for the election of new trustees pursuant to the Libraries Act. The situation of the land is said to be incon­venient, and pow·er is given under the Bill-should .a majority of the trustees (If the site and a majority of the committee of management agree-to enable the sale o.f the land in whole or in part in order that .other land at Yarram may be pur­chased with the proceeds of the sale, on which to erect a new building for a mechanics' institute and free library. There is full provision in the Bill to pro­tect the -public interest in every way. A public meeting callAO tD consid.er the matter has approved of the proposal, and there is no couflict on the subject. I un­dersta.nd that the late Mr. I .. ivingstone, who was a highly respected member of another place, had for a number of years been endeavouring to finalize this prO'-

posal, which is necessary to provide for the erection of a new institute in this thri\'ing township. I can assure the House that everything is quite 'right, and I ask honorable mem-bers tD pass the Bill so that the desires of the local people may be given effect to.

The Hon. H. F. RICHARDSON.-Mr. Davis is the representative of the Pro­vince in which the Yarram Yarram Mech­anics' Institute is situaled. I sho·illd likt' him to state whether any objection can be raised to the passage of this measure.

The Han. G. lVI. DA VIS.-The Leader of the House has given a very full ex­planation of the purposas 0.£ the Bill. There is nOo oppDsi tion to the Bill, and it is desired by a large number of persons. I am sure that our assent to the Bill will be welcomed..

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was -read a second time and

passed through its remaining stages.

BILLS READ A FIRST TIME. The following Bills W6'l'e introduced and

read a first time:-Parliamentary Elections (Railway Em­

ployees and Civil Servants) Bill (the Hon. R. Williams).

Capital Punishment Abolition Bill (the Hon. E. L. Kiernan).

Alderman Abolition Bill (the HOll. E. L. Kiernan).

The, House, a.djournea at 8.53 p.m. till Tuesday, September 30.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Tuesday, September 23, 19Z.~.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. John Bowser) took the chair at 4.36 p.m.

NEW l\IEM13ER. }\1:r. J. \V. Pennington was sworn as

member for 'Xara Kara.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. RE-ARBANGEMENT .oF SPENCER- STREET

STATION-REVENUE FROM WOODEND-

DAYLESFORD RAILWAY.

Mr. A. A. BILLSON (Ovens) asked the :\l}inister o·f Railways-

1. If the Railways Commissioners have adopted a complete plan for the I'e-arrange­ment of tbe traCKS and the provision of plat­forms for the country trains at Spencer-street.

482 Melbourne and l ASSEMBL Y. I Metropolitan

2. If a plan for the erection of a new station building at Spencer-street has been adopted.

3. If he will arrange that the plans of the whole scheme involved in the foregoing be exhibited at the State Parliament House.

4. If he can inform the House of the esti­mated cost of carrying out the whole scheme. He said: -I may say that these questions ha.ve not been submitted out of idle curio­sity. I think the public is entitled to know what is being done at Spencer­strEet.

lVlr. HOGAN (Minister of Railways). -I have been furnished with the follow­ing replies: -

1. A complete plan for the re-arrangement of the tracks, and the provision of platforms for country trains at Spencer-street has not been adopted. The Commissioners, however, have tentatively approved of a general lay-out for the Spencer-street station yard, which in­cludes the provision of the two submban plat­forms recently brought into use. This general lay-out is outlined in litho. plan No. 138/22, and was submitted to the Parliamentary Stand­ing Committee on Railways\vhich, a~~er in­vestigation, authorized the construction of the suburba.n platforms referred to. The Com­missioners will from time to time submit to the Committee further proposals for the pro­vision of essential facilitie::. to deal with the growing traffic.

2. No. 3. Litho. plan No. 138/22 is attached. 4. No estimate of cost has been prepared

for carrying out the complete scheme. Mr. 1\{cDONALD (Da.ylesfol'd) , asked

the :Minister of Railways--1. ·What revenue was deriyed from the

vVoodend-Daylesford railway for the financial year 1923-4.

2. 'Yhat were the working expenses in con­nexiol1 with the same during that year.

Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Railways). -Separate records are not kept of the working of the W oodend-Dayl€sford line, and in the circumstances the desired in­formation in connexion with the revenue and working expenses is not avaqable·.

BILLS READ A FIRST TI1\1E. The following. Bills, introduced by

Ministers, we·re read a first time:­Audit Bill (Mr. Prendergast). Opticians Registration Bill (1\11'. Tun­

llecliffe) .

l\iELBOURNE AND l\iETROPOLITAN TRAMWAYS (INSCRIBED

STOCK) BILL. 1\ir. PRENDERGAST (Premier) moved

for leave to' introduce a. Bill relating to' lVlelbourne and 1\1et.ropolitan Tramways inscribed stock, and for other purposes.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill was brought in, and read a first time.

l\1r. PRENDERGAST (P~emier).-I want the House to' treat this Bill as urgent. I move-

That the Bill be now read a second time.

In explalla tion O'f the Bill, I will read the follo·wing memorandum, which sets out the purposes of it;.-

To carry o·d essential works, the Tramways Board has recently arranged to raise a loan in London. The terms of the loan are advan­tageous to the Board, and the proceeds will be transferred to Melbourne as required. Doubt however, has been raised as to whether the wording of the fourth schedule to the Act of 1918 ~No. 2995) is wide enough to give authOrIty to the Bo~rd to open stock ledgers and transfer b?gks I~ London. No difficulty would be expenenced 1f the Board had decided to issue debentures in London, but the issue of stock is the favoured method of raising loans in Lond~m. l.n order,. therefore, to prevent ~ny possIble chfficulty, It has been decided to llltro~luce a short Bill giving authority for the openlllg of the necessary stock ledgers and transfer books in London. As the Board has completed this transaction, it is desirable' that tl~is auth<;>rity should be given by Parliament WIth as lIttle delay as possible, and I would, therefore ask that this Bill might be passed forthwith.

I have a. copy here of a, letter from the secretary of the Board. I shall take the somewha.t ext.raordinary course .of reading it, as I am desirous tha.t the House should be made fully conversant with all the cir­cumstances connected with the introduc­tion of the measure. The letter is as fol­lows :-

LOAN £700,000. 23rd September, 1924.

The Honorable the Treasurer, Treasury, Melbourne ..

Dear Sir, I am directed to refer to the Governor in

Council's consent, dated 28th ult., to the borrowing by the Board of a sum of £700,000, and to inform you that the Board's bankers, the Commonwealth Bank of Australia London recently arranged with Messrs. Ni~ison and Co., brokers, London, to underwrite an inscribed stock loan at 5 per cent., for a period ?f twenty years. The issue price of the loan ~s £98, and the total London expenses, includ­lll.g underwriting, commission, advertising, &c., WIll not exceed £2 per cent. Applications for the loan closed 011 20th inst. The loan will be probably received in instalments extending over several months, and the Commonwealth Bank has arranged to transfer the proceeds to Melbourne. The net cost to the Board allow­ing for all expenses, redemption at par, as well as a rate of exchange much above the pre­sent market rate, will not exceed £5 13s. 9d. per cent. per annum. The Commonwealth Bank Melbourne, has raised some doubt· as t~ whether the wording of the fourth schedule to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramway.s

Tramways (1 nscribecl [23 SEPTEMBERJ 1924.] 483

Act 1918 is wide enough to permit the Board to open the necess~ry "stock ledgers" and "transfer books" III London, and has ~ug­gested that, in order t~ prevent an~ P?sslble difficulty a short enabllllg Act of I arhament should be passed as early a~ . possible. In view of the urgency of obtallllllg these loan moneys, in order to meet the Boa~d's enga.ge­Illents, I am directed to ask you to be l~llld enough to give the matter ~our e~rly attentlOn. The chairman and the Writer wIll be pleased to call upon you personally, if d~sired,. in order to furnish any further informatlOn WhICh lIlay be required.

The lett.er is signed by the secretary of the Board.

Mr. VVARDE.-At what rate can the Commonwealth Bank borrow money ~

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-The rate of excha.nge is somewhat expensive a~ the present time. I ha,ve already pomted out that the whO'le cO'st of this IQlan will noot exceed £5 13s. 9d. per cent. per annum.

Mr. MORLEY.-Are we floating a loan r.mong our Q1wn people ~

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-Our market will be fully exploited with the Common­wealth loan that is being placed upon it. It. is desired, as far as pos~ible, to' give the Coommonwealth a free run in respect of the IQlan to be arranged fQlr the States.

1\1r. EGGLESTON.-W e have tOi borrow "in England, too.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-We are ob­taining an amQlunt of mo,ney that will suffice fair our market for a coonsiderable period. I may say that this Bill is really a legacy from the previoous Government, modified by a noote from the Treasurer of the Commoonwealth Bank. The Bill should be put through without del~y, in order that favorable circumstances fOir obtaining the mooney may be taken advan­tage of.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-T'he Premier very courteously showed me the correspondence relating to this matter. I have be,en through it all. The Under­Treasurer and other officials have inves­tigated the matter, and undou~te~ly the measure is an urgent one, as It IS very desirable that certain negotiations should be completed. Another House is sitting to­night, and the opPOIrtunity should be availed of to put the Bill through both Houses. Notification can then be sent to' the authorities concerned that the necessary legislation has been passed, to remove all doubt with regard to power to open the necessary stock ledgers and transfer books in London.

l\:Ir. LI~D.-'Vhat is the purpose of this legislat.ion ~

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-To carryon necessary t.ramway works.

IVIr. LiND.-Does it affect the motor 'bus service ~

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).--I may inform the honorable member for Gippsland East that the Board has already authority to borrow £500,000. They could not borrow more without ob­tajn'ing parliamentary authority. This will enable t.hem too spend money Q1n improvements that are badly needed.

Mr. ALLAN.-What will it cost to ge,t the money out of England ~

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-The rate of exchange for ordjnary money is some­where around £4 now.

l\fr. ALLAN.-It ,'wuld be better to borro'\v in Australia in t.hat case.

1\1r. PRENDERGAST.-If we have debts in London, and can cover our rnoney the,re, it becomes cheapeT to borrow in London.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time,

and committed. Olause l-(Short title, construction,

and citation). Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-In­

asmuch as copies of the Bill have not been circulated, I think it desirable too have the clauses read.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).-I want to be perfectly open and above board. I have explained tha,t the Bill is urgently requjred. The Bill has been recommended by the Treasury officers, who are the custodians of our interests, and it is required immediately for the purpose of enabling the Bo·ard to take advantage of the cheap money market offering at the present time. The Bin is a very short one, and I will therefore read the whole of it.. It is as follows:-

A BILL RELATING TO MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN

TRAMWAYS INSCRIBED STOCK AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES.

Be it enacted by the King's Most Excellent Majesty by an~l with th~ advice and ~ons~nt of the LegislatIve CounCll and the LegIslative Assembly of Victoria in this present Parlia­ment assembled and by the authority of the same as follows (that is to say) :-

1. This Act may be cited as the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways (Inscribed Stock)

484 Gas Reg~llation [ASSEMBLY. } Bill.

Act 1924 and shall be read and construed as one with the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Act 1918 (hereinafter called the Principal Act) and any Act amending the same all of which Acts and this Act may be cited together as the Melbourne and Metropolitan 'l'ramways Acts.

2. In any case where the Uoard has hereto­fore horrowed or hereafter borrows or re­borrows any sums of money by way of loan raised or to be raised in London the following proYisions shall have and be deemed to have had effect:-

(1) The Board may enter into arrange­ments for tile raising of any such loan in London or for any matter in cOIDlexion therewith. .

(2) V\Tithout afiecting the generality of the foregoing provisions of this section any such arrangement may provide for all or any of the following matters ;-

((,) The creation inscription and issue in London of Mel­bourne and Metropolitan Tramways Inscribed Stock;

(b) Regulating transfers and trans­lllissions of such inscribed stock;

(c) Paying interest on such in­scribed stock;

(d) Issuing stock certificates and as often as occasion requires re-inscribing stock and re­issuing such certificates;

(e) The opening and keeping in London of stock ledgers and transfer books for the pur­poses of this section; and

(I) Generally conducting all busi­ness connected with such in­scribed stock or the nising of the sums. of money afore­said.

(3) The Board may under its common seal appoint ttny officers of its bankers for the tillle being. in London to be registrar and deputy-registrar respec­tively for the issue and recording of the issue of such inscribed stock and transfers and transmissions thereof and f01" doing sllch other acts mat­ters or things as may be necessary to give effect to any anangemeut under this section.

3. In Part B of the Fourth Schedule to the Principl!lJ Act after- the words "Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Insc~ibed Stock" there shall be inserted the words "issued in Mel­bourne."

4. The provisions of this Act shall be read as in aid and not in derogation of the provi­sions of the Principal Act with respect to the borrowing powers of the Board.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.

The Bill was reported without amend­ment, and the report was adopted.

On the motio;I! of Mr. PRENDER­GAST (Premier), the Bill was read a third time.

GAS REGULATION BILL. lVIr. TUNNECLIFFE (Chief Secre­

tary).-I move--That this Bill be now read a second ·time.

This Bill is one of two measures origina.lly introduced in 1923 and subsequently re­mitted to a Committee of the House for report. The recommendations of that Committee. were again submitteCi later in a series of amendments which have since been embodied in this Bill, together with a number of technical amendments sug­gested by the Metropolitan Gas Company and 9O'me considered desirable by mem­b~rs of the present Government, then sit­ting in Opposition. Perhaps no legisla­tion of recent years has had so much at­tention give.n to' it by Parliament, it hav­ing been presented for consideration by honorable members on three separate occa­sions, as well as having been exhaustively examined by a Committee aided by ex­pert advisers. It is one of two measures that aim at the better regulation of the supply of gas to the public, and, as it stands at present, represents the con­sidered thought of thrE\e Governments backed by the ,expert opinion of a host of witnesses, and is submitted to the House for favorable consideration. It is based upon the Bill introduced into the Legislative Assembly in July, 1923, but it now -embodies recommendations cOon tailn-ed in the. il'Ielport of the )Se1lect Committee on Gas Supply dated the 4th Deooiffiber, 1923, and has been re,vised generally. In.a general way the Bin fol­lows the English Gas Regulation Bill 1920, a.nd ·reference has been made to the New South Wales and Queensland gas Aots. The object of the Bill is to assure to the consumers of gas in the metropolis an adequate and satisfactory supply of gas, particularly as regards price" pressurel ,

purity, and heating power. The under­takers to which this Bill now applies are set out in the schedule and arel: -The Brighton Gas C'ompany, tlte Colonial Gas Association Limiteld (in respect of its works at Box Hill, Footscray,. and Oak­leigh}, the Metropolitan Gas Company, and the WiIIiamstown Gas Company Limited. Any other undertaker that has soM more than 25,000,000 cubic feet of gas annually may, on tho recommendation of the. gas referees, b61 brought under the operation of the Bill. It has been deemed in­advisable to elxtend the a.pplication of the

Gas Regulation [2-3 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Bill. 485

Bill to. those small undertakers on which the requirements of it would operate ha,rshly or which would find it financially impossible to comply with the requirements as to standards involving the. insta.llation, probably, of costly, up­to-date maohinery and testing apparatus. Broa;dly speaking, the methoos by which the object of the Bill is to be attained are: -(1) By the appointment of an in­dependent boa.rd of three' competent gas referees who are to be responsible for the administration of the Bill. All three gas refe,re;es are to be appointed by the Governor in Council, and to enSUl'e tha,t a. competent board of refere·es is appointed t.he Bill provides t.hat one shall have practical expe,rience in gas manufacture', one shaH have a. knowledge of chemistry or physics, and one shan have account­ancy 'and .financial qualifications. Pro­vision is made for securing the im­partiality of the refe,rees. I The' gas referees will administer the Bill with the aid of such assistants 001' officers as are necessary, and o,f gas inspectors and gas examiners. (2) By prescribing the qualit,y of gas in respect of calorific value, purity, and pressure. Certain standards are laid down by the Bill which are to serve as a basis, but these standards are subject to variation by the gas referees in a manner which will be explained later. (a) As regards ·calorific value·: T'he significance of C C calo,rific value " will be discussed later. At present, it is suffi­cient to ~ay that the requirement of a. minimum of 500 British thermal units IS in line with the require­ments in New South Wales and Queensland. (b) As regards puri ty : The impurity most likely to be in­troduced into gas supplied for domestic purposes is sulphuretted hydrogen, and the Bill requires that there shaH be no trace of this. (c) As regards pressure: The minimum pressure required is such that it will balance a column of water at least l·~ in. in height. Under the 1\ietro,­politan Gas Company's present Act, the requirements are 6-10ths of an inch dur­ing the day and 1 in. during the night. This difference is a survival from the period when gas was almost sOolely used as an illuminant. Calorific value is inti­mately connected with price~ and to obta:n sufficient elasticity to permit the basic requirements of the Bill to be workable, the gas re,ferees have been given power to vary the standards of quality and to

control the price of gas supplie:d. (3) By empowering the gas referees-(a) to vary from time to time the prescribed calorific value, purity, and pressure, 0.1 gas;. (b) to determine the price of gas; (c) to make re.commendations and re­ports in the interests of consumers; (£I) to hold any necessary investigations. It is obvious that the' conditions nnde,r which the various companies are operating will vary greatly, and that too impose a standard to, say, 500 British thermal units in respect of ca.lorific value, may seriously affect the efficient prodllction of gas by some companies. The alterations to plant required to meet the new standard may be difficult and costly. Again, it may be possible that one company is supplying gas of a considerably greater calorific value than the' standard re'quirement, but will ha,ve great difficulty in maintaining the minimum standard pressure. Here, then, since the,. gas refe,rees ha,ve power to va.ry the standards, eithe,r generally or in par­ticular cases, and since they also have the control of the' price of ga.s,· it will be pos­sible so to vary the standards as to ob­tain thel most e,fficient combina,tion of calo'rifie value., pressure, and purity of which any particular unde,rtaking is cap­able. And the price fixed by the re­ferees will be commensurate with the value of the gas supplied. If, for .example, in orde.r to comply with the standard calorific value it would be necessary to install plant which would be quite, be,yond the financia.I resources of a particular company, then the gas re,ferees may 15.x a lower calorific value and a proportiona.te,ly 10we'r price. The point is that the consumer will pay for gas according to value received. The gas referees are also give'll a general powe·r to make, recommendations to the Minister on all matters relating to. the supply of gas, or the, interests of con­sumers, and are, also empowered to make investigations hoth generally and on mat­ters speeially re,fe.rred to t.hem by the Minister. It is important to note that the refel'ees are also given the power to compel the attendance of witnesses at these in­Yestigations, and to take evidence on oath. (4) By substituting the modern heat yalue test in lieu of the' present candle­power test. The reasons· for this sub­stitution were explained at some le'ngth by Mr. Lawson in moving the secoond reading of the, former Bill, and are set out in Hansaira of 15th August., 1923, at

486 Gas Regulation [ASSE~IRLY.] Bill.

pages 597-8. The substance of these reasons amounts to this :-The pre­sent standard 'of quality is deter­mined by 'an illuminating and not a heating standard. The Metropolitan Gas Oompany's Bill of 1878, in section 206, provides that the gas supplied by thel company shall produce a "light equal in intensity to the light produced by fifteen sperm candles. .", and this test still remains. But the old "Bats­wing" burner has be,en ousted by the in· candescent burne,r, the illumina,ting power of which depends on its be'ing heated to a sufficient temperature to cause it to be­come incandescent, 'i .. e., the modern burne'r illuminates, so to spe'ak, by heat and not by candle powe,r. In addition, gas is now used exte,nsive,ly for hea.ting in gas fires, gas stoves, bath-heate.r!:!, ~nd g~s coppers. The candle, power test In thls connexion has no meaning. I t is pro­posed then to re,quire tha,t gas should be of a, certain " calorific value," and more pa,r­ticula.rly that gas should be of such a calorific quality that 1 cubic foot of it would, on combustion, .produce 500 British the·rmal units. The British thermal unit is measnred by an instrument called a calorimeter, and represents the, amount of heat necessary to raise 1 lb. 0'£ water 1 deg. Fahrenheit.. In England, in the 1920 Act, it was provided tha,t a new basis of gas charges with the" therm " as the unit could be substitute,d. A " therm" repre'sents 100,000 British thermal units. But there are e,vidences of considerable dissatisfa,ction with this method of sale, and in the present Bill the method of seUing by volume, or cubic feet is re,tained, with this important con· dition, however, that the gas .must con­form in quality to recognized modern standards. (5) By providing for ade­quate, testing of gas and gas me'ters, and examination O'f gas-holders. The Bill provides that the Gove,rnor in Oouncil may appoint gas e,xaminers, who will test gas a.s to quality and pressure, and may pre­scribe places and times for testing gas. U ndertake,rs are required to main tain testing pl!tc€s a.nd te,sting a.pparatus, and to allow gas examiners a·ccess to them. Provision is made, for the' a.ppointment of inspectors of mete.rs. All meters will be tested and stamped before they are, issued, and thereafter it is the duty of the! under­taker to test them within every seven years. Any consume'r may, on payment of a, fee, ha.ve his me,ter lested, and, if it

Mr. Tunnecliffe.

is found to be inaccurate, the gas com· pany will bear all the costs in connexion with insta.lling. an accurate meter, or re­pairing thel existing meter, and any in· spection fees paid will be refunded to the consumer. In view of the comparatively recent Q1ccurrence of a fire at the gas-hOilder at North Melbourne, and of an e,x.plosion at the gas-holder at Port Me,lbourne, it has be,en de:emed advisable to insert a pro­vision for the a.ppointment of inspectors o·f gas-holde.rs. The gas referees ar€; em':' powered tOo enter and inspe'ct gas works, and the underta.ke,r is required to give them e,very fa.cility for this purpose" and to' supply them with any Information the,y desire, as to the position of pipes and majns, &c. The gas referees may a,lso make tests of gas and carry out in­spections of gas-holders. (6) By prnvid­ing for (a) adequa.te, penalties for de­ficiency in calol:ific vahle', ,purity, or pre's­sure j and (b) forfeiture of revenue im­properly increased by reason of such de­ficiency. Where the calorific value, of gas is below the prescribed standard, the undertaker is lia,ble, for a ma·ximum fine of £5 in respect of eve,ry 1 per cent. by which the' calorific va,lue of gas supplied is below the prescribed standard. For e,very occasion on which the gas supplied does not comply with requirements as to puri ty and pressure, the unde,rtaker may be fined £10. In addition to' penalizing the' undertaker by means of a fine', there is also a provision that the, sum by which the gas referees conside[" that the re,venue of the undedaker has been improperly in­creased as the result of supplying gas which is not up to the, standard, . shall be deducted from the price of gas in the ensuing qua,rter, or be deducted from the amount payable, in dividends by the underta.ker. The, costs and e,xpenses of the, administration of the Act will be borne jointly by the undertakers to whom the Bill applies, the several contributions varying in proportion to the respective n.mounts of gas sold annually. While· the· Bill introduced last session is the basis of the present Bill, attention is drawn to the following important amendments:­(1) The a p'pointment of the gas referees. (2) The' gas re,fe,re,es are nO'w re'quired, between them, to possess a knowledge of gas supply in its scientific, financial, and practical manufacturing aspects.

. Mr. EGGLESToN.-You say that theSE: are new provisions ~

Gas Regulation [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924. ] Bill. 487

lVlr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Ye:s, but most of the amendments to which I am now referring were circulated in connexion with the last Bill by the honorable member for St. Kilda, who was chairman of the Gas Inquiry Committee.

Dr. ARGYLE.-vVill the Chief Secretary intima.te to honorable members the cla.use~ in which the· am~'lldments to which he has referred occur ~

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-I will do that la ter . (3) The. porwer of the gas referees is extended to enable them to hold such inve.stigations as a·rel desirable, to take elvidenc81 on oath, and to compel the at.­tendance. of witnesses at such investiga­tions. ( 4) The standards as to calorific value, purity; and pressure (which were formerly set -out in the second schedule) a·re- now inserted in the Bill as a. basis, with a provision empowering the. gas' referees, on the-ir own responsibility, to vary these standards from time toO time:, according to particular circumstances, instead of merely recommending va.riations afte:!' a period of three yelars. Thel tech­nical methods of testing are removed from the se:co'lld schedule, and a.r€l to be. pre­scribed by regulation. (5) In this Bill the: gas relferees are em po we·red, notwith­standing any statutory Enactment pro­viding for a. sta,ndard or maximum price, to fix the pricel of gas. This is a very important provision not included in thel previous Bill. (6) A. provision for appeal to a, Supreme Court Judge from all d~ter­mina.tions of the gas relferee's is a new feature in this Bill. The appellant may be thel Minister, or the council of a muni­cipality, or the gas company conce:rned. (7) Anothe,r new felature is the provision for a speedy and simple method of settling disputes between gas companies and their employees, in respect of various industrial matters not covered by Wages Boards' determinations or Commonwealth Arbitration Court a,wards. I do not 'know whether it will be any help to honorable members if I go through the Bill clause by clause, but I am prepared to do that. Olause 2 con­tains a definition of the term "Oalorific value," which is very important indeed. The definition has been adopted practi­cally from previous legislation, and in the form recommended by the Select Oom­mittee.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-It was in the pre­vious Bill.

Mr. TUNNEOLIFFE.-The defini­tion is highly technical, ,and it is quite impossible for me, or any person merely as a politician, to determine whether it is sound or not. However, it is generally accepted by the scientific world and by people acquainted with methods of gas production. Olause 3 refers to the schedule, which includes only the gas companies within the metropol,itan area. This is a very distinct modification of the provision in the previous Bill, which included gas companies in provincial towns as well as gas undertakings con­trolled by municipalities, such as those at Heidelberg and Warrnambool. The clause excludes from the operation of the Bill the companies in Ballarat, Bendigo, and Geelong. They are definitely ex­duded from the schedule, but a reserve power exists to bring any of them wi thin the scope of the Bill if the gas referees think it desirable that that should be done. .

1rfr. EGGLESToN.-The Governor 111

Oouncil. Mr. TUNNEOLIFFE.-Yes, the Go­

vernor in Oouncil, on the recommenda­tion of the referees.

Dr. ARGYI ... E.-Irrespective of a com:­pany's output?

Mr. TUNNEOLIFFE.-N 0, the out­put must be over 25,000,000 cubic feet.

Mr. DEANY.-Will the referees have that power?

Mr. TUNNEOLIFFE.-They will re­commend to the Governor in Oouncil. For instance, if there was general com­plaint as to the quality or pressure of the gas supplied at Ballarat, and public opinion was aroused in the matter, t.he gas referees would investigate the position, mid probabl~ recommend that the com­pany be brought under the operation of the Act. Then they would have full power to act in regard to determining all the conditions.

Mr. DEANY.-YOU are referring to companies with an output of over 25,000,000 cubic feet?

Mr. TUNNEOLIEFE.-Yes. The d~:fferen~e ~etween this Bill and the pre­VlQUS BIll IS that we t·ake power in this measure ;to include the undertakings I have mentioned. .In the previous mea­sure they were expressly included.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-There is ll(l

right of appeal?

488 Gas Regulation [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

M~r. TUNNECLIFFE,-The Gover~ nor in CDuncil will determine whether they shall be bl'Dught under the Act Dr

. nDt. As a matter of fact, in the past there have been no complaints in regard to the general treatment that has been meted out to the publi{: by c0'mpanies in rural districts, 0'1' municipal undedakings at Heidelberg or elsewhere. The main bone of contention has been the treatment meted out to the public by the Metro­politan Gas Company and other Mel~ bourne companies. The, schedule to the Bill includes the gas companies within the metropolitan area. Of these the Metropolitan Gas Company ~s working under a private Act (The Metropolitan Gas Company's Act 1878), while the other cormpani~s are merely: registered under the Oompanies Act, and are not cDntrolled by special legislation. The following undertakers, which were included in the previous Bill, are now omitted: -The council of the shire of Heidelberg, the council of the city of Warrnambool, and the Bendigo, Ballarat, and Geelong Gas Companies. The three last-named are still wDrking under private Acts. It is intended that the provisions of the Bill shall apply only to the metropolitan area for the time being, but of course other undertakers may be brought under the operation of the measure later. Clause 5 has been amended to express the recom­mendation contained in the report of the Select Committee on Gas Supply. Under the previous Bill only 011e of the' referees was required to have practical knowledge of gas supply, and two of the referees were to represent the, municipalities and the undertakers respectively. N ow the three referees between them are required to ha.ve a knowledge of gas supply in its scientific, financial, and manufacturing aspects. The amendments made by this Bill in thei previous measure were, in the main, circulated by the honorable mem­ber for St. Kilda, as the result of the inquiries of t.he Select Committee, of which he was chairman. That Committee became familiar with the requirements of the situation. The amendments have been accepted as b~ing valuable, and haye been embodied in this Bill. The pro­vision disqualifying persons interested was not included in the previous Bill, but there is a similar disqualification in the Queensland Act. The last three sub· clauses of this clause are additional, and sub~clause (8) is important in that it in·

COl'porates portion of the Evidence Act 1915, thus giving the referees power to compel the attendance of witnesses, and. to administer oaths at investigations. The general power in sub.clause (8) is addi· tional to the powers conferred by clauses 8 to 12. A similar provision is contained in the Queensland Act, although there, no po,wer is given to ex­amine witnesses on oath. All the amend­men ts to this clause were included in the amendments circulated by the honorable member for St. Kilda in connexion with the previous Bill. Paragraph (c) of sub-clause (1) of clause 6 was not included in the previous Bill, nor is it contained in either the English or the Queensland Acts, but in inserting it regard was had to the acci­dents in the gas-holders at Port Melbourne and North Melbourne, and to considerations of public safety. While the Committee was sitting atten­tion was drawn to! the fact that there had been a disaster at Port Me1bourn€,1, a.nd I think that even during the currency of the Committee a. fire broke out in the gasometer a,t N odh Melbourne. Althoug1'I there was considerable difference of opinion as to the competency o,f any ex~ aminers to! test gasometers, 011' to deter­mine whether they were safe, the Chair­man of thEI Committee w,as of the opinion tha,t some provision should be made fo'r inspection. Even if this provision ca.nncl't be made operative,' which will be' unfortu­nate, . it iSi worth while, trying tOI control thEi construction of gasooneters and to have them inspected from time to timf;t wi th a view to' securing sa,fety. Clause 7 is identical with cla,use 7 of the previous Bill, sa,ve that provision is no,w made as to the incidence of the co,st of ,administer~ ing thEi Act as between the various un­dertakers, such co,st being allocated among the various undertake,rs in propor~ tio'll to the respective amounts of g.assold annually. Sub-clause (1) of clause 8 ia identical with clause 9 0'£ the previous Bill. A simila,r provision is contained in the English Act. Sub-clause (2) of this clausEI has been inserted to' extend the powers of inspectors O'f gas-holders. Olause 9 is identical with clause 10 of the previous Bill, and clause 10 is idE.mtical with clause 11 of that measure'. Clause 11 is a new clause. The portions of it dealing with calorific value and purity we're included, tog-ether with tests in respect of each, in the Second Schedule

Gas Regulation [23 SEPTEMB~R, 1924.] Bill. 489

to· the previous Bill, while pressure was dealt with in an independent clause. It has been thought desirable to sweep calo­rific value,. pressure, and purity together into the same clause, to provide for the technical tests by regulation, and to. lay down the standards as a basis, so that they may be varied, accoTding to varying circumstances, by the gas referees. The pr€.iVious Bill also provided that the stan­dards in respect of calorific value and purity could not be altered by the Governo,r in Council until three years after the commencement of the Act, but the gas referE,'es can nQiW vary any of the standards froon time to· time. The stan­dards required .are practically identical with those required by the Queensland Act, and the calorifio value standard, which, in the previous Bill, was fixed at 550, has now be.en brought into line with the Queensland standard Qif 500 thermal units. This was the figure recommended in the report of the Select Committee, and paragraphs 21, 22, 23 relate to it. Reference is suggested to the report of the Select Oommittee under the heading of " Standards of Oalorinc Value and Purity." Clause 12 is entirely new, and constitutes one of the substantial amendments to the former Bill. The Queensland Act of 1916 contains a similar provision. The reasons in favour of including a prOlvision em­powering the gas referees to contrQiI prices are set out in paragra.phs 23-25 of the re­pO'rt O'f the Select Committee. Clause 13 is als()i an entirely new clause. Paragraph 32 of thel report Qif the Select Committee recommends appeals to a. Supreme Court Judge. There is a similar provision in the Queensland Gas Act for appeals in re­spect ()if price to a J udg-e ()if t,he Court having jurisdiction in industrial matters. This clause provides far appeals in respect of .all determinations of the gas referees. Clause 14 is a new regulation clause deal­ing with testing. Paragraph 19 of tho I·eport -of ,the Select Oom­mi ttee suggested that these matters should be dealt with by regulatiO'1l. Clause 15 is practically identical with clause 14 of the previous Bill, save that matters in­cluded in sub-clause (2) of clause 14 of the previo.us Bill are now transferred to clause 11 (1 ) (c) of this Bill. Clauses 16, 17, and 18 are identical with clauses 15, 16, and 17 of the previQius Bill. Clause 19 is identical with clause 18 of

the previo.us Bill, sa,ve that under the previous Bill a 5 per cent. deficienoy in any standard was pe'rmitted befQlre the undertaker became liable to' .a fine. This indulgence has now been withdrawn. The pen al ty in su b-cIa USe ( 2 ) is reduced from £50 to £10. Tl1e wording of sub-clause (3) has been slightly alter(ld . tQi follow the form O'f expression in the English Act. The new sub-clause (5) has been inserted to' provide for forfeiture '..If revenu€J improperly increased by defici­ciency in standard. This provision is in­cluded in the English, but not in the Queensland, Act. Clause 20 is identical with clause 19 O'f the previous Bill, save that the words " set at zero" havebeeu inserted for greater caution. Clause 21 is identical with clause 20 of the previous Bill, except for a slight verbal amend­ment. Clause 22 covers clause 21 of the previous Bill, but now provides that the expenses co'nnected with testing, removal, and substitution of inaccurate meters will be bQirne by the undertaker. Clause 23 is identical with clause 22 of the previous Bill. Clause 24, except for a, slight verbal altell"ation, is identical with clause 23 of the former Bill. Clause 25 is identical with clause 24 of the previous Bill. Clause 26 is identical with clause 25 of the pre· vious Bill, save that in sub-clause (1) (c) the words "and places at which meters may be tested" have been added. This amendment was included in the proposed amendments of the honorable member for St. Kilda. Sub-clause (e) is additional, and is . the amendment of the honor­able member for St. Kilda as amended. Olause 27 is entirely new, but was referred to in paragraph 49 of the report of the Select CQimmittee. Clause 28, except fO'r verbal amendments in sub-clauses (6) and (8) is identical with clause 26 of the previous Bill. Clause 29 is identical with clause 27 of the preIVious Bill. The Schedule, as I have said, omits the gas undertakings of the council of the shire Df Heidelberg, the Ballarat Gas Oompany, the Bendigo. Gas Oompany, the Geelong Gas Oompany, and the counoil ()if the city of Warrnam· bool, which were included in the First Schedule to the previous Bill. In con­clusion, I wish tOisay that the measure is olf an extremely technical chara.cter, and I

- feel sure that had it not been for the amount of wo.rk that was devoted to the investigation of the question by th~ Select

490 Gas Regulation [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

Committee of this House, presided over by the honorable member for St. Kilda, which listened to' an enormous amount . of evidence from people interested in and associated with gas undertakings throughout Aust.ralia, and in a variety Qif ways acquired a know­ledge of the literature on the subject,

, we would not have "been able to grasp a Bill of this character. I want to nay a tribute to the honorable member for St. Kilda, fQir the way in which he con­trolled the investigations o-f the Select Committee, and the enormous amount of energy that he devoted tQi acquainting himseH with the whole business of gas undertakings in Australia. A tremendous amount o-f work was undertaken by the Committ·ee and the repo-rt is a very valu­able document. To the best o-f our powers we have endeavoured to. incnrporate in this Bill the results of the Com­mittee's investigation, which are based en the best evidence available. There may be minor matters in which honorable members may desire some alteration. In the main, however, it is a technical measure, and the various clauses in their present form are more likely to secure the results that we aimed at-more effective control of gas production and better protection . of the public-than any nther legislation that is likely to be introduced.

Mr. LAwsoN.-Tha,t Select Committee's investigation was not such a bad thing then ~ It has proved fairly serviceable ~

lVIr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Ye.s. It was really one of the most valuable investiga­tions undertaken by this Chamber, and such an amount of useful informatio-n could not ha,ve been obtained in any other way. I wish to pay a tribute to the work of the Committee and all tho-se associated with it.

Ml'. LAwsoN.-Will you not give a blessing to the Government that appointed the Committee ~

M". TUNNECI .. IFFE.-I am quite willing to dOl SOl, and in return I hope that those who were meinbers of that Go­ve,rnment will give their blessing to the work of the Select Oommittee, and pass the measure without serious opposition.

M!r. EGGL~STON.-The Chief Sec­retary has explained the Bill in a very clear way, but I should like him to COll­

sent to the adjournment of the debate, because the me·asure deals with Qinly a' small portion of tne gas problem. I desire- to thank the honorable gentleman

fQir the nice refe,rences he made to myseH, although they we're not alto­gether dese'rved, because every member of the Committee played a part in arriving at tna.t repQirt. As the affairs of the Metropolitan Gas Company are crucial in counexion with the solution of the gas problem of Victoria, and of }Y.[elbourne in pa,rticular, I do nQit think it is fair to ask the House-not that I understand the hono·rable gentleman is doing so-to proceed with this Bill wit,hout knowing something about the, measure dealing with that company. I should like, the Chief Secretary tQi promise that the other Bill will be before the House. before we are asked tQi dispose of this measure. At le·as·t the other Bill should be circulated, and I really think it ought to be ex­plained before t.he legislation now before us is put through. With the, exception of the clauses dealing with industrial dis­putes, and the limitation of the Schedules, the alte,rations that have been made in the Bill as finaJly agreed to by the last Government are only verbal. I move-

That the debate be now adjourned

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE (Chief SeCl'e'­tary).-I have no objection to- the ad­journment of the deba.te, but I should like to say that whatever may happen to the Metropolitan Gas Company-and that is in the lap of the gods-I think this Bill should be passed.,

The motion fOir the adjournment of the debate was agreed to', and the debate was adjourned until September 30.

CATTLE COMPENSATION BILL 1\11'. CAIN (Honorary Minister) .-1

move-That this Bill be now read a second time. '

This is a measure which has been sub­mitted on two· previous occasions. It was brought in in 1922, and again in 1923. It was introduced by the same Minister on both occasions, but the, hon­orable member for Ballarat. West was co~ sponsor in 1922, and the, honorable mem­ber for H(ampden in 1923. It is quite evident therefore that the principles em­bodied in the Bill had the blessing of at le'ast one previous Government.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Is this another Bill that you opposed when you were over he,re ~

Mr. CAIN.-It is the same .Bill sub­mitted in a better way. That being so, I feel that a majority of this House will

Gaill~ GompensaiiGn [:r3 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill. 491

give it favorable consideration. Apart from the views of those ""ho are liable tu lose stock from disease and are conse­quently directly interested in the Bill, I believe that there is a desire on the part of the people generally to have diseases era:dicated from the flocks and herds of Victoria. This Bill proposes to make pro­vision for the compensation of people meeting with serious losses through stock diseases. That compensation is to be pro­vided in a way that was not followed in the previous Bill, but that the Government think is the most effec­tive method of dealing with the problem. The n um ber of stock now con­demned by Government officers annually is-tuberculosis 300, actinomycosis 350, pleuro-pneumonia 700, pleuro-pneumonia contacts 1,000. In addition to these, ap­proximate,ly 1,000 head are condemned at the city abattoirs for tuberculosis. The approximate sum needed to meet require­ments would be £45,000.

Mr. BEARDMORE.--A great many of those cattle come from other States.

l\1r. CAIN .-1 am not disputing that. We ha.ve endeavoured to get. over that very great difficulty. Let me give some examples of the losses that have been incurred by individual owners as an in­dication of the desire that exists for the passing of such a measure as this. There was a firm at Ultimo that owned 1,272 head of cattle, and in 16 months lost 449. If the, owners had been poor farmers they would have been absolutely ruined.

::\1r. VVEAVER. - They were dealers' cattle.

l\tIr. CAIN.-I do not care whose cattle they were. They were lost in that dis­trict.

Mr. 1\1cDoNALD.~Last year it was said that there was no disease up there.

1\1r. CAIN . -'VeIl, the particulars I am now giving are taken from the records of the Department of Agricultur~. I asked for t~e information this morning, and the' ChIef Ve.terinary Officer, Mr. Robertson, arranged for me to get it. Here is another case, that of lVIr. W. G. Beard, a returned soldier of l\1ulgrave. He owned a herd of 28 cattle, and 23 were destroyed with disease, his total loss being £480, Which was his all, and it was necessary for him to take on work on the roads to make anothe,r start. Another outbreak occurred in the stock of M'r. W. Cole, Lang Lang, also a returned soldier.

The outbreak occurred on the 9th July, 1923. He owned 67 head and lost 13 from disease. He had toS'ell the balance of his stock at £2 a head. The animals were affected with pleuro-pneumonia, and when that disease has not passe.d a certain stage the experts say tha t the flesh can be used. Mr. John Waugh, of Appin South, who owned 27 head of catHe, lost 19 of them owing to pleuro-pneumonia. Realizing the danger of keeping the balance, which would act as carriers and affect any new stock that. he purchased, he decided to destroy them all. His loss was very heavy, and a large petition has been signed by residents in the district' asking that compensation should be paid. Another outbreak occurred in the Casterton and Coleraine districts, where sixteen farms were actually infected in 1921. The total number of stock des­troyed was 277. Those are cases that have occurred in different parts of the State. The,re are some members who may be opposed to. this legisla­tion, but' after I have gone through the various clauses I do not think so much objection will be raised. I may say that provisions which ap­peared in a previo.us measure, toO which exception was taken, are al tered in this Bill. One of t.he most im­portant problems in this matte,r is the, method of collecting the, fees. There' are three wa)Ts of dealing with this question. There is the o.ne that was provided in the previous Bill, to impose a, tax of RO

much per head on all stock in the State·. A similar provision is included in the Tas­manian law, and the Depa.rtmeut is well a.ware of the difficulties experienced in that State in collecting the fees. One of them is that raised by the, honorable member for Benambra, and that is_ in relation to cattle brought into this S'tate· from some other part of Australia, and sold almost immediately. One of the difficulties in connexiou with the tax under the pro'­vision in the previous Bill, to which I have referred, is the eno·rmous expense involved in trying to collect the tax. The estimated cost o.f collecting a direct tax at the, present time is betwe.en £3,000 a.nd £4,000. The se'cond me.thod is to pu t on municipal councils the responsibility of getting statistics as to thel number of ca,ttle wi thin thea.r bounda.ries and col­:ecting the money. It was thought, how­ever, tha,t it would be hardly a. fair thing

492 Cattle Compensation [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

to ask municipal councils to pedorm this (b) to the owner of any carcass or por-duty. So we considered a third method, tion of a carcass condemned under

Part XIII. of the Health Act 1919 which is the one adopted in this BilL at any abattoir' by a meat inspector ""Ve propose a, tax pe'r medium of a. sta,mp as unfit for human consumption be-duty of Id. in ther £1 on every head of cause of disease. cattle sold in the State. This method will (2) Subject to this Ad compensation as get ove,r the difficulty to' which I haver aforesaid-refe'rred. (a) in cases of pleuro-pneumonia con-

Mr. BEARDMORE.-The tax will be only tagiosa-shall be payable out of the on the cattler sold ~ Cattle Compensation Fund estab­

lished under this Act; and Mr. CAIN.-Yes. T"hat will meet the (b) in cases of tuberculosis or ofactino-

difficulty the honorable member who has mycosis-Twenty per centum of such just interjected raised. in regard to cattle compensation shall be payable by brought into this State and sold in the the Treasurer of Victoria out of Victorian market. moneys to be provided by Parlia-

M ment for the purposes and the re-r. LIND.-Tha,t will not afferet those! mainder of such compensation shall

whom the Bill is designed to protect. be payable out of the said Cattle There are. dairymen who never st"ll the,ir Compensation Fund. cattIer. (3) In section 10 of the Stock Diseases Act

l\ir. OMAN.-What nonsense! 1915, after the words " and the owner thereof Mr. LIND.-It is not nonsense. shall" there shall be inserted the words M C N "except as otherwise expressly provided in

r. AI .-Therel are, compa,ra,tively the Cattle Compensation Act 1924." few owners of cattle or dairymen in this State' who .do not engage, more or less, If aHe,r a beast has been slaughtered it in the, saJe of cattler during the year. To has been found to be diseased, the owner meet the objection raised by the hQlnorable will be compensated to the extent of member for Gippsland East we shall be three-fourths of the residual value. If prepared to acce'pt an amendment pro- cat,tle are destrQlyed because they are viding that where a dairyman has suffering from tuberculO'sis or actinomy­not sold any cattle during the year, cosis-these are the two diseases com­and has not paid any ta,x, he can municable to human beings-20 per cent. ma,kel special arrangements to pay sO' much ' of the compensation will be provided out per head equivalent to the average, of what of the Consolidated Revenue. he would pay if he had been in the Mr. ALLAN.-Is that only in the case market selling cattle. I ask hon- of those twO! diseases 7 orable members to help me, to see if we l\1r. GAIN.-That is so. That is the cannot evolve something that will be in public contribution in the interests of ther best interests of all concerned, and public health. protect those who need prote.ction. It Dr. ARGYLE.-Is that a new provision ~ must be recollected that disease amongst Mr. CAIN.-It is, and it is an original herds increases, and is due 'to the fact that proposition. We have nort copied it from notifica,tion is not given by owners of what the previous Government, and it is now is taking place, because of the fear that submitted for the first, time for the COll.­

ca,ttle, will be destroyed without the pa,y- sideration Q1f this House. ment of compensation. I will now go Mr. LIND.-It is a. very good proposal. through thel various cla,uses of the Bill. l\1r. CAIN.-I am pleased to know Clause 1 divides the Bill into threr€ parts. that I have satisfied the honorable mem­The next is the inte,r,pretation clausel, and ber in one direction, at. any rate'. clausel 3 directs the Minister Q1f Agricul- }Ir. ALT~AN.-You do not propose to fure to' administer the Act. Clause 4 pro- pay compensation in a similar wa,y in the vides that,- case of pleuro-pneum()lllia. ~

(1) Subject to this Act compensation shall Mr. C'AIN.-No. That payment is to be paya b1e under this Act in the 'cases ancl to be made only in the case of the two' the extent and subject to the conditions here-inafter provided- diseases I have mentioned.

(a) to the owner of any cattle destroyed Dr. ARGYLE.-Both of which are com-(by or by order of any inspector of municable to man, while the o,ther is not. stock pur'suant to any Act or any Mr. CAIN .-That is so. The flesh of regulation or order under any A0t) 'a. beast suffe.ring frOlIU pleuro-pneumonia because 'such cattle are suffering from or suspected of suffering· could be consumed without particular from disea,se; or danger to health. V come now to clause

Cattle Oompensation [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill. 493

5, which deals with cattle ordered to be lVIr. CAIN.-I t.hink it will be ad­destrOlJed that are subsequently found free mitted that owners of eattle are pre­from disease, though suspected of it. If an pared, in the main, to' accept the de-cision animal suspect-ed of being diseased is' of an expert in a matter of this sort in found to be healthy, the full market value preference to their own opinion as to' the is to be paid by way of compensation. health of a beast. If after destruction the beast is found to Mr. ALLAN.-Even experts do nOit be diseased, the compensation will be at know everything. the rate of three-fourths of the market :i.\1:r. CAIN.-I quite lealize that. At value of the animal. If a, beast is worth t he same time, a public Department is, £20 on a farm, and it is destroyed be- generally speaking, administe.red in the cause the inspector certifies that it is interests of the communit.y, and I think disease-infe-cted, the owner will get the we can rely upon that spirit ani­full value if, after the destruction of the mating the departmental officers iu animal, it is found .to be free from the cases 0'£ this sort. Clause 7 provides that diseases mentioned in this measure. ",,/-~ application for compensatiOlJl must b~

Mr. BEARDMORE.-"\Vho will deterIl1ine made within 21 days of the destruction tha t pOoint ~ of a beast. Inspectors will carry with

Mr. CAIN.-I will tell the hQinorable them all the necrosary fOTms for claiming member. There is nothing in this Bill compensation, and the details can be that I cannot explain to him, but I filled in as so'on as the animal is c.an~ot tell him everything pa~_~~e-1destroyed." The fOorm has to be signed lImIt the total amOfUnt of compensatIOn : by the owner or his agent. to £25, so that, suppose a dairy cow or' ::\1r. BEARDMORE.-That limitation may a bullock wO'l'lh £25 is destroyed, and act harshly in the case of a man living found to be free frOom disease, the. owner ,a few hundred miles away from 1\1el­will get that amQiunt. If, however, the .~ bourne. animal is diseased, the compensation will . l\lr. CAIN.-I do not think so. The be three-fourths, 01' £18 15s. :: inspector will be on the spot, and will

Mr. ALLAN.-Do you propose tOI make: have all the necessary forms with him. any difference ill the case of prize stook ~ : Twenty-one days is a reasonable time to

Mr. CAIN.-No. We have limited fix. Paragra,ph (b) of sub-clause (4) the total compensation 101 £25, because if \ provides that ~o compensation is to be we made no stipulatiO'll of that sort, and '~paid in the case of neglect to notify the a stud animal had to be destroyed, there 'pepartment of cattle visibly affected with would be a serious drain on the Jube-rculosis or -actinomycosis. It is very fund.;' Clause 6 provides the means important that we should get people who by which the value of cattle destroyed as have diseased stock to notify the De­diseased is to be determined. An arbi- partment with as little delay as possible. trat,o.r, whol will be a fully qualified per- There may be some difficulty wit.h regard son, will be appointed by the l\1inister to to the words "visibly affected," but settle any disputes that may arise as to suppposing an animal has a big lump 01})

the value of an animal destroyed. That the ja.w that could be seen by a child, a is a principle we have adOopted in many notification ought to be sent tQi the De­of our laws. If the State buys land partment at once. and there is a dispute about the Dr. ARGYLE.-Is it not possible that value, arbitrators are appointed to deter- that provision will be a loophole through mine the issue. In this case, we pro- which the Department can escape paying vide that the decision of the arbitrator compensation ~ What is visible tOI an in­shall be final. spector may not be visible to sOlmebody

Mr. TOUTCHER.-Suppose an inspectOor else. says tha,t a beast is diseased, and the Mr. CAIN.----The Department would owner says it is not, who will determine not want to do anything of that sort. the issue 1 What we want to avoid is diseased caUle

Mr. CAIN.-I think we will have to being allowed to roam about in a paddo-ck allow that matter to be determined by and no notification given to the Depart­the Department. Presumably, it will ment. If an QlWD.er of diseased cattle aot honestly jn the interests of the publio. llotifies the Department of the fact, and

Mr. TOUTCHER.-An inspector may. the inspector pays a visit before the . make a mistake. animals die, compensation will be

49-1 Oattle Oompensation [ASSEMBLY.] Rill.

payable under this provision, which has been specially inseded to encourage the owner of dise'ased stock to notify the De­partment without delay.

Mr. \VEsT.-He has no inducement under present conditions.

IVIr. CAIN. - Tha t is the point. \Ve want to encourage owners to notify the Department, so that responsible o.ffi.cers may get into touch with them. In such circumstances he will be entitled to cc..mpensation.

Mr. LIND.-This applies o'nly to cases of tuberculosis or of actinomycosis.

Mr. CAIN.-The expert opinion is that .a, farmer can detect a case of pleuro­pneumonia within a week of the ailing of the beast. The chances are that the beast will not die for three 01' four weeks.

IVIr. LIND.-The argument is all right as rega.rds a, dairy herd. But take a man with store cattle on a large run· he mav not see the beast for some time. ) 01

1\1r. CAIN.-Then if he has not noti­fied the disease, and the animal dies he will nOot be entitled to compensation. This provision particularly refers to cattle suf­fering from actinomycosis.

1\1r. ALLAN.-Suppcsing a stock-deale,r kills a beast that is suffering from some' other disease than the diseases named in the Bill; will he get compensation ~

M.r. CArN.-No.; we are dealing only w.ith cattle suffering from certain specific dIseases. The three prevalent disea.,ses t ha t. are deaH ~i th are pleuro-pneu­mama, tuberculosIs, and antinomycosis. \Ve are not proposing to insure the life of every beast.

An HONORABLE MEMBER.-Vlhat about anthrax ~

Mr. CAIN.-That is not dealt with by the Bill e,ither. If the point rais'ed by the honorable member for Rodney is that the owner of a beast suspected of suffer­ing from a certain notifiable disease that is destroyed by order of the inspector and is afterwards proved to have suffered from another disease is to be entitled to compensation, I say, "Yes." He would be so entitled because his property would have been destroyed.

An HONOH.ABLE MEMBER. - Supposing a stock-owner nOotifies the chief inspectOor of stock that some of his cattle are in­fected and the notification is not received within the time specified, will he be en­titled to compensation ~

Mr. CAIN.-Yes. The date of notifi­cation is accepted. Say a stock-o.wnel' living in a remote part of the State for­warded a notification of. an outbreak of disease to-day. Before the notification would be received and an inspector could pay him a visit a week might elapse. In the meantime, we will assume the beast has died. Co~npensation would be paid~ Paragraph (c) of sub-clau~e (4) of cla1l:so 7 provides that compeusatlO'n shall not tIe payable unless the chief inspector of stock is satisfied that all stamp duty payable under the Act by the owner of the cattle has been paid.

NIr. NIAcKRELL.-Supposing you breed an animal ~

Mr. CAIN.-That is a different thing. This relates to the owner of cattle who has been buying and selling and who has evaded payment of the stamp duty of Id. in the £1.

NIl'. IVIcDoNALD (Polwcu·th) .-Does this sub-clause apply only to cattle slaughtered at abattoirs ~

Mr. CAIN.-No, it applies to cattle slaughtered anywhere in the State,.

Mr. McDONALD (PoZ'warth).-Unde,r paragraph (a) of sub-clause (4) no com­pens:t1tion shall boel payable "if the head only of any carcass is condemned as unfit for human consumptio-n because of disease."

Mr. OAIN.-That is when the rest of the carcass is fit for use. The value of the beast without the he-ad is as good as with the helad.

Mr. McDONALD (Polwarth).-If the animal is slaughtered on the farm and the head only is diseased, will there be com­pensation 7

Mr. CAIN.-If the beast is slaughtered on the fa.rm at the demand of the in­spector, cQompensation will be paid. It does not matter in such a case whether only the head 001' the tail is diseased.

Mr. McDONALD (Pol~v'arth).-What would be the use of the carcass to the mall on the farm ~

1\1r. CAIN.-The clause applies to beasts slaughtered for human consump­tion ill abattoirs.

1\1:1'. McDONALD (Pol'Wa'rth).-Many cattle suspected of disease are slaughtered on farms.

Dr. ARGYLE.-If the Honorary Minis­ter will lQook at the definition clause he will see that " carcass" is not defined in exactly the way he has indicated.

Mr. PENNINGTON.-WOould not a great -injustice be done to the owner of stock that wer,e condemned in the sale yards ~

Oattle Oompensation. [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924. ] Bill. 495

. J\!It. CAIN .-It is pra.vided in para­graph (b) 0'£ sub-clause (1) of claus~ 4 that "subject to this Act compensatIOn shall be payable "-to the owner of any carcass or portion of a carcass condemned under Part XIII. of the Health Act 1919 at any abattoir by a meat in­spector as unfit for human consumption because of disease.

Mr. PENNINGTON_-A bea.st is cou­demned, we will say, at the N ewma:ket yards, and authority is given to' tal{e It to theJ aba.ttoirs. At the abattoirs the head only is condemned but the owner of the stock has to take ~.nly half the price the beast would have fetched had it not been marked down by the inspector. vVe have that SQlrt of thing at the' present moment.

Mr. CAIN.-Under this Bill the value o·f stock will be increased, because the purchaser knQi·ws that if the bea;st is dis­eased he will receive compe,nsabon.

The SPEAKER.-This is not a second­reading debate. It is simply a series d interjections fired at the l\1inister, and re­plies given by t.~e Minister to those who interject. I ask hOlnO'rable members to have some considera,tion fm' the l\1inister, accessible and ready though he is.

Mr. CAIN.-I v,ras anxious, not ~o much ta make a second-reading speech, as to convincel honorrable members, as I went along, tha.t the desire of the Government is to' do the right thing. I take no ex­ce'ption to' the' interjections. I realize that hono,ra.ble members are greatly inttrrested in the Bill. I wish they were as interested in every Bill that comes before us. I am sure it ·would add to the value a.f our debates. I have, I think, cleared up the po,int raised by the honorable member for POolwarth as tOo a carcass meaning a beast destroyed in an abattoir or elsewhere where the head is diseased and the rEI­mainder o,f the carcass fit for human con­sumption.

Mr. BEARDMORE.-How would it apply to a country butcher 1

l\1r. CAIN.-The cO'untry butchEIf's esta,blishment WOluld be considered· an abat­toir, even though it might be a small one and perhaps an undesirable onf~. Pa,ra.graph (rl) of sub-clause (4) OIf clause 7 deals with cattle suffering from pleuro­pneumonia that are introduced into Vic­toria within three months of their being destr0'Yed. COompensation in respect of such ca.ttle is not ta be paid unless thE' Chielf Inspector 0.£ Stock is satisfied that such cattle became so. diseased after tht·ir

arrival here. The purpose o,f this pro'vi­sion is to' protect the State and those COll­

tributing· to'wards the compensation fund against fraud. 'Vithout such prO'vision ~t would be possible for peO'plel to cross the border, buy cattle suffering from disease, bring them intO' this Stat.e, ha,ve them con­demned and destroyed, and then receive compeillsatioll fo.r them. One o·f the diffi­culties that had to be faced was the ac­cessibility of perSO'!1s tOo another Sta,to where there is nOI such law in operatioll. Sub-clause (5) of clause 7 provides power to withho,ld compensation in certain cases. Hono'ra.blel members may think the pro­vision r.ather indefinite. It does not ~ean that, a man who was convicted under the Stock Diseases Act or the Dairy Super­vision Act a year agOo would necessarily be barred compensation. What it really meaillS is that a man who attempts to evade the Act, and who has already been convicted Oof offences against the Acts I have named, shall not be eligible for COll­

pensation.

Dr. ARGYLE.-vVould such a man be barred against compensation for all time 1

Mr. CAIN.-No. Discretionary po,wer is given to the Minister. 'Ve dOl nOot want to condemn a man for ever because he has made one little mistake. Clause 8 has reference to cases where disease exists in a localized form. The meaning o,f it simply is tha,t instead· of an inspector o,f stock fo'ft,hwit.h destroying the cattle or ordering them to be dest.royed, he may, in his discretion, allow the OiWner to put them in quarantine fo'r a time, and after­wards to market them. The Chief Vete­rinary Officer regards this provision as de­sirable. Clause 9 dea.ls with trafficking in diseased cattle, and provides fO'l' a rather hea.vy penalty. This is a case, in which a heavy penalty is deemed to be neces­,ary, . because it is very difficult, to prove a charge of that kind against a man. '7\7 e wish) aIso, to discourage the practioe Oof trafficking in dise,ased cattle with a view tal the, claiming of compensa,tion, and the clause is Oone which I think will commend itself to hono-rable members. Clause 10, which comes unde,r the head­ing " Part 11.", prO'vides fOor the estab­lishment, of the "Cattle Compensation Fund." All sums of money received in respect of stamp duties are to be paid to the credit of the fund, and sub-clause (4) sets out that any sum which the Treasurer of V cto-ria, at any time certifies to be required for pa_yment. by 'vyay of

496 Gattle Oompensation . [ASSEMBLY. ] Bill.

compensation, so far only as the fund is insufficient, shall be paid out, of the Co~­solidated Revenue: The follQiwing sub­clause sets out that any sum so paid Qiut of the Consolidated Revenue shaH be deemed to be an advance t.o the fund, and shall remain a charge thereon to' be recouped when funds are avail~ble. I have already given the number of cattle: slaughtered, and pointed out what the State contribution is. As there are a numbe:r of people whO' have avoided the reporting of disease in stock, it is very difficult to estimate with any precision what amount will be obtained from the sale of stamps, and it may be; neoessary to supplement the fund in the.! way in which I have indicated. If there; is any difficulty it will probably occur in, the first year, but the departmental: officers are of thel opinion that after the; first year there will be more oat tIe re-: porteld, and the amount of money re-; quired as an advance will diminis"!!} Clause 11 is a machinery provision rE;!lating to' stamp duties on state­ments of sale, and it provides for an amendment of the Third Sche­dule to the Stamp Act 1915. Clause 12 provides that every ()(Wner of cattle or his agent shall, upon the sale thereof, whether the payment of the purchase money is Dr is not made in full at the time af the sale (J(l' is to be made by in­stalments, prepare a sta,tement as to the number of cattle SOlId and the price ob­tained, affix to the statement duty stamps for the amount of the duty pay­able, and forward the statement to the purchaser within seiven days. Clause 13 pravides fo,r the cattle duty stamps to be issued by the Comp­troller of Stamps, and .also for the re­oovery Qlf any unpaid duty in a Court of Petty Sessians. There is nDt.hing of any impolrtance in the remaining clauses. Clause 14 deals with regula.tions as to' statements and stamp duties thereon. Clause 15 sets Dut that in. any praceed­ings the burden af proof shall be on the defendant. C1ause 16 provides far a penalty for a-ny oontravention of or failure to comply with any of the pro­visions of the Act fQir which no penalty Dr punishment is expressly provided. Clause 17 gives the Governor in CDuncil power to make regulatiQlIls, which must be published in the Gove1rnment Ga.zette and laid before bQith Houses of Parlia­ment within foorteen days after the pub-

M1'. Cain.

licatiou thereof if Parliament is then sit· ting; and if Parliament is not then sit· ting, within fourteen· days of the next meet.ing of Parliament.

Mr. ALLAN.-C'an yau tell us the ap"­proximate cost of this scheme: 1

Mr. CAIN.-The estimated cost IS

£40,000 per annum, but it is expected that fram £35,000 to £36,000 will be collected. In reply to an interjectian, I may say that the administrative cost will be barne by the Department o.f Agricul­ture, The e:xpenses of collection will be negligible.

Mr. LIND.-Is it intended to appoint many additional inspectors ~

Mr. CAIN.-NO'. It is estimated tha.t, three additional inspectors will be re­quired, and they will wOTk in cO'njunc­tion with the dairy inspectars. In this Bill we think we are putting a fair pra­position before the Humse. It is in the interests of public health, and I appeal to' the House to give it most serious consideration. A similar measure has been before honQirable members on two previous occasions.

Mr. ALLAN.-Thelre is not much dif­ference between this Bill and the previaus Bill.

Mr. LIND.-This is an impravement an the previous Bill.

Mr. CAIN.~In my orpinion, it is an imprO'vement.· Just as men insure their haystacks and t.heir machinery, I t.hink it is in the interests of cattle-owners, whose very existence may be jeopardized by disease, that they should have t.he pro­tection of a measure of this kind. 1 think I am correct in saying that. same honorable members who apposed the Bill previously have since t,hen suffered severely from outbreaks of disease. This is. a sensible and sane method of meeting a difficulty.

Mr. OMAN.-Will the Honorary Min­ister give me the adjaurnment of the de­bate until Tuesday next ~ I am not an­taganishc to the Bill.

J\Ir. C'AIN.-Having that assurance from the honorable member, I am agree­able to the debate being adjourned until next Tuesday.

:1\lr. OMAN.-I mov&-That the debate be now adjourned.

The m Dti on· for the adjournment of the debatE; was agreea to, <; nd the deba,te was . adjourned un1il Tuesday, September 30.

Melbourne and Metropolitan [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Tramways Bill. 4!J7

JVIELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN TRAMWAYS BILL.

Mr. WEBBER (Honorary Minister). -I move--

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is a short Bill to amend certain provisions nf the Melbourne and Metro­politan Tramways Acts. Though it is small and contains only four clauses, neverthe­theless it is important, viewed from cer­tain aspeds. It is particularly important to municipalities, because it affects the powers they have to-day under the prin­cipal Act. It is alsO' important to the Tramways Board because, if carried, it will be the means of 6,ffecting a large saving to that body-a saving in the con­struction and maintenance of its tracks. When the principal Act was passed, I think in 1917-1 was, I believe overseas at the time-clauses were included that now have been found by experience and time to operate harshly on the Board. Other clauses during that period of experience have pro,ved to be unnecessary, and the Bill therefore sets out with a view to rectify those anomalies in the Act. The best method of explaining the provisinns of such a Bill to the House is not to make a Inng second re'ading speech,· but to take each clause seriatim and explain it as we arrive at it. That is the method I prn­pose tn-night. Honorable members will see that the first clause nf the Bill is the usual one setting out the preamble nf the· measure, and it need not be discussed. Clause 2 is the first important one .. It is important because it proposes to give the Bnard the pnwer to abandon certain lines of tramways that may be paying lines. Clause 2 proposes to repeal sub­sections (1) and (2) of seotion 59 of the principal Act. Sub-sections (1) and (2) of that section are as follow:-

(1) Save as provided in this section the Board shall not abandon any part of its tram­ways.

(~) The Board shall not abandon any part of Its tramways except a part thereof which can only be carried on at a loss.

It is proposed to repeal these sub-sec­tions. That means that, whereas the Board at the, present time can abandon a part only when it is carried on at a loss, if the Bill is carried the Board will be permitted to abandon a paying line as well as a non-paying line.

Mr. DEANY.-Is that to compete with the buses 1

[27J

l\1r. WEBBER.-Not a.ltoge,ther. Th{~ object may be three or four fold. It may be considered wise in future not to rUll any trams or buses for that matter ill some city streets, for instance, in Collins­street. ~he idea has been put forward that Collms-street shnuld be kept free of tramway traffic. If the Bill is carried, the Board will be able to abandon .the Collins-street line, which is a paying line. Another sub-clause sets out that if the Board proposes to' abandon any such part of its tramways it shall give the Minister notice in writing, together with a, state­ment specifying the part proposed to be abandoned, and the reasons for its pro­posa~. It is further provided that the M;mlster shall as snon ·as practicable la v a copy of such notice and statement befor~ both Houses of Parliament and unle::;s within 24 days either Hou~e of Parlia­ment resolves tha,t the prnposed abandon­ment be not Illade, the Board may abandon the. part of its tramways to' which the notice relates. Parliament thus has the final say in the matter. It may deter­mine that the abandonment shall nnt be allowed, and the Board will have to conform to that determination. Olause 3 ()tf thia Bill amends the Eleventh Schedule of the principal Act. Sub­section (3) of that schedule directs the Board to keep" its tra·cks in a proper state of repair and as the muni­cipality concerned directs. That is to say, that. ~nder the l.aw as it stands tn-day a mumclpal COUllCII can nntify the Board that its tracks are in a bad stat,e nf repair and compel it to put them in order. It can direct the kind of materials which are to be used, whether wood blocks or concrete or any other form of road surface. While a coun­cil may thus complain about the Board its own sides of the roads ma.y be full of potholes. The St. Kilda Cnuncil took advantage of this provision when it found that the Glenhuntly-road was being cut up by heavy mntor bus traffic. The whole of the thnroughfare was in a bad state of repair, and while the, St. Rilda Council ?id nnt e:cactly or~er the Board t.o put Its tracks 111 order, It. did something much to the same effect. At the same time it did .not take any .steps to put its own portion of the road 111 good repair. Even­tually an agreement was arrived at, and the whole matter was amicably carried out. But what may happen in the future? W fJ may find some council insisting upon

498 lJ1.elbourne and Metropolitan LASSEMBljY,' T.ramways Bill.

its powers in this connexion, It is proposed to alter the wording in this :paragTap~ and 'provide that the Minister of Pu~lic Works shall act as a 'I'elferee to deClode whether or n0lt tracks shall be repaired in the way R-sked by a couneiL The coun?il will make a request to the Ministe'r, who m'a.y direct the Board tOl carry out the repairs required and in the manner sug­~s'bed by ~he council. [t is proposed to eliminate the words (( with such ma­'terials and in such maE.neT as the muni­cipali~y concerrned directs and to the satis­faction of such municip.ality," appearing in SlRb-section (1) of section 3. At the encl. of tRi's sub-scct] on the following words are to be inserted:-

Provided further that the Governor in COU'll'cil on the request of the municipality con­cerned may by Order direc.t the Board to carTY O'llt such repair with such materials and in such manner as is specified in the Order.

l\!J}r. LIND.-Would this work be in­spected by officers of the Public W O'rks Department 1

Mr. WEBBER.-That is the idea. We have experts in that department quite competent tOo express an opinion as to the Inanner in which the alterations and re,­pairs to the tracks O'ught to' be carried out.

Mr. LIND.-Are the,re sufficient officers for this extra work 7

Mr. WEBBER.-This provision will not moon the employm€iD.t O'f a.n.y ad<ll­tional officers. Besides that, if this power is given to the Minister, it is prohable iliat very few cases will come before him, because councils~ nO' longer having the final say in the matter, will come to an amicable understanding with the Board. The Board has no desire to' ,shirk it~ responsibilities, but it does wish to' be pro­tected from the whims of any council that may seek to act under the law as it now stands. Suh-seetiofll (2) of section 3 also concerns the powers now held by munici­pa.lities regarding the levels O'f rQads. At the present time, if a council decides to alter thel levels o-f a road, the Tramway Board has also to' alter the levels of its tracks. A typical example is provided. in Lygon-street, North Carlton. The Mel­bourne City Council decided to' recon­struct that road with concre,te, and it completely altered the level. The Boa.rd was alsOl compelled to alter its level.

Mr. JEwELL.-The council gave noticE' af its lev'els in the first place.

Mr. WEBBER.-That is so. We pro­pose to' amend this provision ,sO'mewhat in the same way as the one -to which I have just referred. The final say in the matter is to rest with the Minister of Public Works. He will go into the whole question and -see if the mUl'licipality and the Board cannot come to sO'me agreement ·on any prO'posal'oT this ·solrt. If they caamot agree, he will ,act :as referee. It is alS1) pr.oposed to amend another portioll of the principal Act. Again, I may take a typical example to' illustrate our intem­tions. Honorahle members know that Batman-avetD.ue runs parallel with t1n.oe riveq- from Prince's-br]dge to' Swan-street,

. Richmond. At one time the surface was macadam. tOI}} dressed wi £h ta.r, and the Tramways Board m.ade its tracks of sUrri­lar material. Then the city council de­cided to wood-block the avenue, and the Boord was coonpelled to wood-.b~ock its track-quite an unneoessary proceeding, because the tramway track was suitable. As tne Act now stands, w.hene,ver a mu.ni­cipal oouneil decides to reoonst,ruct it-s roads, the Tramways Boa.rd must use the same materia.! for its tracks. In the past most mUiI1icipal 'COllIDciJ,S and the Tram­ways Board have worked wen together in matters Qf this sort. Councils ha.ve given ample notice of their intention to reCOIL­stl'UCt a. ro!ad, and have left it to the Board to carry Qut its work when the time 0'£ reconstruction, in ordinary circum­,stances, arrived. At stated pe,rioos it, is necessary for any tramwa.y authQrity to reconstruct its track owing to' its wearing out, and it is desirable that the Board shO'uld be protected so that it can recon.~ struct or repair its tracks in the ordinary course of things, and not be compelled to dOl so at any particular time by a munici­pal counciL The Board may ha,ve carried out the necessary repair work, and then, three or four months afte,rwards, a council may decide to alter the surface of its roadway, and it can call upon the Board immediately to take up its track, and replace it with material similar to that used by the council.

Mr. JACKSoN.-The "Board doesexactlv the same with councils. •

Mr. WEBBER.-The Boa.rd has no power to compel a council to' reconstruct its roads. .

Mr. JACKSON.-But the Board tears up the roads, and the cOouncils ha.ve to. repair any damage l which may be done.

Melbourne and Metropolitan [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Tramways Bill. 49~

:Mr. WEBBER.-The Tramways Board will only tear up from 17 to 18 inches from the side of the outer rail when it is canying out repairs. If it is necessarJ fOil' it to get any further from thel track, I think it invariably restores the road to a proper state of repair. It may be neces­sary, when relaying sleepers or carrying out Qither work, t.o go further than I have said, but the roadway is properly re­paired .. In cases where there is 12 feet or more between the two tracks, thel Board is compelled to ke'ep in order only a ce;r­tain portion of the intervening space. If there is a big curve in which the· rail& axe more than 12 feet apart, the Board has. to keep the whole space in repair, because' the extra distance is provided to meet the convenience of the tramways. The fourth section of the Twelfth Schedule provides that the Board, in reconstructing a tram track, can tear up only 100 yaTd's of the track at a time. When the Act was passed, .it was thought that 100 yards would be quite sufficient. That, . however, IS found not to be the case now, and it is proposed to extend the distance to. 200 yards. As a matter of fact, I have been advised by officials of the Tramways Board that for proper economical working it is· necessary to tear up 300 yards at a time. Rut they are a~king for only 200 yards, because they do not ",vant to put councils to more trouble and expense than is neces­sary, and also because they can work a single line only while a portion of the track is under repair. In sub-clause (2) of clause 4 it is proposed to extend the time during which tho road can remain open.

Mr. EOGLESTON.-N 0 limit is put at all.

:Mr. WEBBER.-If no limit is put, that must involve an extension of time.

Mr. EGGLEsToN.-That is my objec~ tion. The clause is quite indefinite.

Mr. WEBBER.~The principal Act fixes a limit of four weeks. The propooal h~re is simply to eliminate those words.

Mr. J ACR:soN.-And leave the time in­definite?

Mr. WEBBER.-It would be indefi­nite, but the quicker the work is done the better the Board will be pleased, S'Ce­ing that they have to work on a single track, whilst repairs are being carried out, and there is always more danger jn i~ .

ltfr. JACKSoN.-There ought to be a time limit.

:Mr. WEBBER.-That is a point thai can be thrashed out in Committee. Hon­orable members.. will understand that the time limit of four weeks was quite suffi­cient in. the days of macadamized ballast,. but is inau:ffi.cient in theae days of con­crete ballast. Traffic cannot be per­mitted to go over concrete whilst it is in a green state. At least four weeks mlLS; elapse after concrete is laid before it is in a proper 'condition for traffic to gc over it. It takes probably two or three weeks more when only 200 yards are dealt with at a time. 1£ we are going to extend the length of time before the road can be opened up for traffic, we must give a longer period for finishing the work.

Mr .. JAcKsoN.-.In the event of a dis· agreement between the Board and the men, work might be held up indefinitely.

Mr. WEBBER.-We might appoint a referee. The Minister might be given power to order the Board to complete the work. We are taking powers away from the municipal councils. I am just as jealous of those powers as ~re other honorable members. I had many years' experience of municipal work, and I have a -sympathetic feeling towards muni­cipal councils.

}.tIl'. JACKSON.-YOU do not believe In the Bill, do you?

Mr. WEBBER.-Certainly, I do. Mr. JAcKsoN.-I do not. Mr. WEBBER.-I was also for' foul"'

years a member of a Tramway Board. Mr. WALLACE.-YOU learned a lot

when you were a member of a council. Mr. WEBBER.-We ,are always

learning. Mr. EGGLESTON.-I expect you have

learned a lot since you have been in office. :Mr. WEBBER.-Probably I have

about the misdeeds of our predecessor::!. Whilst we are taking away certain powers of conncils, I do not think we are d oi1'lg anything that the councils can cavil at. I have already. explained that we do not propose to allow the Tramway Board to do exactly as they please. We do think there should be referees in the9U ('[\se~. Honorable members will reali7t~ thnt if a ~ouncil were permitted to say to the Tramway Board, " You must eon­stnlct vonr track of wood blocks "_.-

Yr. "JACKSON.-But they do not say it.

500 Melbourne and Metropolitan ~A8SEMBLY.J Tramways Bill.

M.r. WEBBER.-I have aln'ady in­'Stance,d the case o.f the St. Kilda Council.

:Mr. JACKSoN.-That is only O:;le hody. Mr. WEBBER.-But whilst the, power

is there, other councils may seek to! ex€,r­cise it. Motor buses are now running continually, and if they oan be diverted on to the tramway tracks it will mean a saving to. the municipa.l councils, ob­viously so if the tramwa,y track is in good order, and the road in bad order. In the instance I have mentioned, an amicable understanding was arrived at, [but the incident shows that serious trouble might arise in the future. There is trouble to-day with regard to the laying of the tra~way track in Flemington-road. There we have a work that is held up because the Board and the council can­not agree. In ,such cases it is desirable that there should be a referee empowered to settle the grievance. Such a power is giyen in clauses 2 and 3.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-It does not apply to clause 4.

Mr. WEBBER.-No; but that can be done in Committee.

Mr. BROWNBILL.-Weare, not taking away obligations from the Board and putting them on the municipalities to con­struct the tramway track, I suppose?

Mr. WEBBER.-No. Mr. JAcKsoN.-Would this permit the

Board to cOIlBtruct their part of the road only in metal?

Mr. WEBBER.-'N one of these clauses gives power to the Board to lay tracks in open ballast. Power is given to the Minister to say what they shall be con­structed of. Under an Act passed last session the Minister may, in certain cir­cumstances, permit open ballast tracks to be constructed.

Mr. JAcKsoN.-They would look very nice in Collins-street.

Mr. WEBBER.-The honorable mem­ber for Prahr'an is probably taking an extreme case to illustrate his argument.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I presume the Minister has no objection 'to an adjourn­ment of the debate.

Mr. WEBBER.-This is a very impor­tallt measure. Honorable members will not have to stew over it. There are really only three clauses, and I have explained them at length. I think we might very ~ell take the second reading of the Bill

to-night. Failing that, surely we might adjourn the debate until to-morrow. That will not necessarily mean that we shall l>roceed with the Bill earlier than Tp.es­day.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-This is a very innocent looking little Bill, but it takes away many existing rights. Peraonally. I rather favour the principle of the Bill, but it is only fair to honorable member3 that they should have a right to consult those bodies whose rights are affected. It is qnite possible that they may plac~ a different aspect on the Bill after con­sult~tjon with the councils interested. I m01le-

That the debate be now adjourned.

I ask that the adjournment shall be until Tuesday. The rights of councils ar~ very much affected. There is that portion re­ferring, for instance, to the levelling of the roads.

Mr. BAILEY.-.. A .. re you making a second-reading speech now?

Mr. EGGLESTON.-No. I am giv­ing reasons w.hy the debate should be ad­journed until Tuesday. We bnould not take away any rights without giving the parties concerned an opportlt1' .. ity of making representations. If the Honor­ary Minister will not agree to my request I shall move the adjournment of the de­bate until Tuesday.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until Tuesday, September 30th.

NORTH CARLTON LANDS BILL. Mr. BAILEY (Minister of Lands).­

I move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is a small Bill to revoke the tempo­rary reservation of ,certain lands, situate at North Carlton, for public educational purposes, to close a, certain right-Oof-way and portion of certain streets, and to provide faT the grant to the Common­'\vealth of Australia for defence purposes of cert.ain lands, in pu rsuance of an arrangement with the CommOonwealth, for the exchange of certain lands, to amend the North Carlton Lands Act 1920, and fOol' other purposes. In the year 1920 an Act (NOo. 3114) was passed revoking the permanent reservation and CrolWn grant of certain lands at North

North Carlton [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Lands Bill. 501

Carlton as a, site feT ma,rket and other municipa.I purpOlses, and closing portions of streets and certain rights-of-way, fO'r the purpose OIf re-vesting the land in the Crown, in order that certain portions of such land could be set apart in suitable positions as reserves for ma,rket purposes and public educational purposes. FOII­lowing the passing of the Act these reser­vations have been made, but it is fO'und that another area, reserved fO'r a drill hall, lying into the area set apart fOlr eduoationa,l purposes, would prove a drawback tOl the latter, and an arrange­ment was cOlme to' with the CO'mmon­wealth, subject to State legislative ap­provaI, to transfer certain land, cO'mpris­ing one acre and three perches, and de­scribed in the Fouth Schedule-this is land tha,t was reserved for public edu­cational,purpose&--tO' the Commonwealth, 'with a view to' the State receiving in exohange the ,area of one acre described in the Third Sohedule, owned by the CO'mmOlnwealth, subject to' the State OIf Victoria bearing all oosts in connexion with the remova,l Qlf the drill hall from its present position to an approved position O'n the new site, the State OIf Victoria also to' bear all the expense of any neces­sary fencing, &c. The Bill alsO' propO'ses to close an unnecessary road and a right­of-way on the present northern, western, and sOluthern boundaries of the drill hall site desoribed in the Third Schedule. The Melbourne City COIuncil is a cOlnsent­ing party to the closing of the road and the right-of-way. The Melbourne and MetrO'politan BOlard of Works is alsol a cO'nsenting party, provided t,he Boa,rd's sewers be nOlt built over. The exchange is strO'ngly fa voured by the EducatiO'n Department, as it will consolidate its areas and relieve it froon the noise arising from drilling, which would be a detri­ment and disadvantage where thel impart­ing of tuition to scholars is concerned. It is a, very small Bill. The preamble sets OIut more fully than I have at­tempted. to' do the -a,rrangement arrived at between the Commonwealth and the State Governments. Clause 1 states that the Act may be cited as the North .Carl­ton Lands Act 1924, and shall be con­strued and read as olIle with the North Carlton Lands Act 1920. Clause 2 prOlvides fOIl'. the revocation of the tempO'­rary reservation. It is as follows:-

(1) The said recited Order in Council dated the 31st day of October, 1922, temporarily re­serving as hereinbefore recited for public

educational purposes the lands described in the First Schedule to this Act is hereby re­voked.

(2) The lands described in the First Sche­dule to this Act are herebv freed and dis­charged from all trusts, limitations and restric­tions whatsoever, and shall be deemed to be and may, subject to this Act, be dealt with as unalienated lands of the Crown. Abutting on to the piece of land owned by the Commonwealth, which comes into the schoOll site, is a closed road. This road it is proposed shall continue to be closed, and it will become unalienated CrOlwn laud, and form part and pa,rcel of the land reserved to the Crown. Clause 3 provides that-

The land described in the Second Schedule to this Act shall cease to be a right-of-way and portion of the streets therein referred to; and all rights, easements, or privileges ex­isting or claimed as regards the said land

. either in the public or by any body or person whatsoever or whomsoever as incident to any dedication or supposed dedication thereof or by any past user thereof or by any fiction of law shall cease and determine, and the said land shall be deemed to be and may, subject to this Act, be dealt with as unalienated land of the Crown. Clause 4 gives power to. grant land to' the COimmonwealth in exchange for cer­tain land. It is as follows:-

When, pursuant to the hereinbefore recited arrangement, the Commonwealth of Australia has transferred to Hi.'! Majesty the King in right of the State of Victoria the land described in the Third Schedule to this Act, the Gover­nor in Council, in the name and on behalf of His Majesty the King in right of the State of Victoria, may upon such terms and under and subject to such covenants, conditions, reserva­tions, and exceptions (if any) as the Governor in Council thinks fit, grant the land described in the Fourth Schedule to this Act to the Com­monwealth of Australia for defence purposes. T'he Commonwealth will transfer a piece of land now used as a, drill hall to the State Government, and that alsol wilT become unalienated Crown land belong­ing to the State. The closed road win, as I ha,ve stated, become unaliena,ted Crown land bellonging to' the State, and together with the land it now possesses, the State Government will have the whole of this block with the excep­tion of o.ne small pOlrtiolll in the tOlP corner, on which is erected a post office. In pursuance of the agreement made for the transfer, the State Government will simultaneously transfer the 1l0Tthern por­tOill of this piece of land, containing one acre and three perches, to. the Gommon­wealth. Olause 5 sets out that-

When the Commonwealth of Australia has transferred the land described in the said Third Schedule as aforesaid the Governor in Council

502: Electoral [ASSElVIBLY. ] Bill.

may, pursuant to the Land Acts, perlU~nently reserve from sale the land descnbed III the Fifth Schedule to this Act for public educa­tiOllU,l purposes.

By clause 6, sub-seetio~ (2) of se~tio.n 4 and the Fourth Schedule to the prlllClpal Act are repealed. That has reference to the land reserved for educa,tional pur­poses, and t.hat reservation will be re­voked. I dOl not think t.here sholUld be any objection to the Bill, the sale object of which is to' give effect tOo the ag~ee­ment whioh has been entered ·mto between the State and the Commoll­wealth. The First Schedule describes the land temporariiy reserved for public edu­cational purposes; the Second Schedule gives a technica,l description of the por­tion of streets and rights-of-way that are to be closed; the Third Schedule gives a teethnioal description of the land to be transferred from the State to the CQlm­monwealth; the Fourth Schedule gives a technioal description of the land to be granted tOo the ~'ommonweaJ~h; and ~he Fifth Schedule gIves a techrucal deSCrIp­tion of the land to' be permanently re­served fo~ educa.tional purposes.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a. second time, and

passed through its rema.ining stages. Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).-I

tha.nk the House for having so speedily agreed tOt this measure. The land re­ferred to is situated ill my .electorate. The Minister OIf Lands took chargel of the BHl and he has been very suc!Cessful in oarr'ying it through. On this land is erected perhaps. the best kindergarten school in Australia, and I invite honor­able members to' pay a visit to the dis­trict. and inspect the school. Every effort has been made to ensure that it shaH be as perfect as possible in its equipment, and it ,might very well serve as a pattern to other honorabie members as to the lines on ,,~hich a sch.ool of the kind should be constructed and equipped.

ELECTORAL BILL. The debate (adj(,mrned ftom S€ptem?er

17) o'n the motion o·f Mr. '1'ullllecbffe (Chief Secreta.ry) for the second r€lading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-There are a Rumb&r of provisions in this measure- to which I tak.e eXG:eption, and some of them very vitally affect what we· on this ~ the Opp.osition) side Q.f the House c@nsldflI' to be the propea:- enrOllment of electors.

First of an, the principle of compulsory voting is, I think, not going to give us any better results at eledions than we have at the present time. I agree en­tirely with those whO' have expressed the opinion that to force people who have not an intelligent interest in the affairs of this country to give an O'pinion at general or other elections will not improve matters one iota.. It is a deplorable fact, un­doubtedly, that so few people take an interest in the affairs of their country as is indicated by the' low percentage of voters in comparison with e.lectors. How­ever, tha.t is not the case always, an.d when there is something vital at issue very much better results a.re obtained~ even in these days. That indicates that it is not altogether that the electors are not awake to their responsibilities, but that just at the time the affairs, .that are before them are not creating sufficient in-' terest to induce them to vote. To compel people to vote when they have n?t go~ any. interest, or dOl not take an mtelhgent interest, in the affairs to' be decided will bring about a wotSe result than the pre .. sent system. I think it is far better to o,btain thel opinions O'f those who ha.ve studied the questions at issue, and' who are interested in them, than to get results from a lot of people who vote blindly, or only in accordance with. wha.te>ver card may be pushed into' their hand.

M.T. BROWNBILL,-At the last Legisla­tive Council elections less tha,n 33 per cent. of the electors vOited.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-You cannot compare the Legislative Council elections with the e,lections for this House·. They do not come wi thin the same category. ~rhe adoption of c.ompulsory voting is nOit going to produce the resul1.s that those who advo~ate it imagine.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-At the last elec­tions in Qu.eenslarnd 82. per cent. of the electors voted.

Mr. WETTENHALL. - The're are quite, a num.ber 01 p(j)l()ptle wh0" have genuine relasons for not voting. They are going to be harassed into having' to go be­fore an electoral regiBtl.'al' and give their 1l'eaSO[l~. .A:n enormous amount of work is going to lbe entailed to discove,r that those people had just cal1se for not voting. That win meam increased coat, and no good p\l.lIPQse at all will be achieved. It means putting eA-1;ra. work on to the officers of the State, and it will ce'rtainly involve the employment of more officials

Electoral [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Bill. 003

and roe.re expense without ,any compensat. ing return. The.re may be thousandsot ~lectors on the roll who would have just eause for not presellting themselves at the pollillg booths. The whole of those eases will have to be looked into, a.nd the people oonceTned will be unmeoessarily harassed. TO' that I take. the gravest ex­<lepti'on. Another provision of the Bill does away with, the property qualific~tion for electors of this House. A man who has .property in the city,' and resides in a suburb, probably lives in a flat or same hotel, and may frequently challge his residence. His business interests in the ci ty are permanent, and are of much more importance to him than his residential a~tu~tion. I think the property qualifica. tI~n for electors should .oertainly be. re­tamed. ..Another provislOn in the Bill allows e,lectors to' enroll right u.p to the day of the issue of the writs. I r~gard this. as a most dangerous inno-va­tipn. The Idea of roll-stuffing is not new, and most people who take an interest in politics can. usually tell when an election is ,ab~)U~ to. ta~e place. :rhere are always certam mdlCatlOns of a dIssolution and in some cases rolls have been stuffed,' or men bave bee'll rushed into an electorate. That has not been done in this Sta.te; because it has not been possible under' the law. But it has been done elsewhe;re, and the w.hole turn of an election has been affected by those new voters. That' sort of t?ing is. extreme,ly dangerous, ahd is not III the mter~sts o.f the people who are permanently reSIdent in the districts con. eerned. The new provision contains a most dange'rous principle, and on that account I would reject the whole Bill. ~r. ~uNNEcLIFFE.-The same provision

eXIsts m eve,ry other State and in the Commonwealth.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-We are getting too much of that kind 0.£ thing in this House. Weare tOtld that something hap. pens here, or something happens there. I prefer to use my own judgment as to what has taken place or will take place. I think it is about time we did use our own jud~me~t, and not go altogether by what legIslatIOll has been passed in other States, unless we also take particular notice of what the 'result of that legisla­tion has been. In my opinion, the results have not been beneficial where the shorter pe,riod has been allowed. I am in favour of giving people the freest opportunity to get on the roll and to vote, but the

proposed innov.ation~ are not going to give the result deSIred-better representation -no:: do I think they will bring ,about any Improvement at all. As for doing what other peopJe have dQine, I think it is • time we did something Otn our own judg­ment. I oppose the Bill for the reason~ 1 have stated.

Mr. McLACHLAN.-There. has been a fair amount of discussion on this mea­s.ure, and it is important enough to war· rant a lengthy discussion, fO'r one of its provisions is, in my opinion, an 'interfer­ence with the civil and religious rights of the people. There are c.ertain ,people who cannot conscientiously reo cord their votes on an election day, and I do not think the State should com­pel them to do sa'. Outside of the Olrgani­zations to which those people belong, there are other people who are themselves entitled to vote or not to vote, . as they think fit. That. is a privilege that has been conferred upon them by our law, and if the GOlvernment carry a measure of this kind-they say they have brought it forward in keeping with a similar mea­sure that has been carried elsewhere--in my opinion they will be putting back the hands of the clock. To use compulsion so far as voting is concerned to my mind is like a relio of a bygone age. To drag men and women, reputable citizens of -the State, before a court and fine them for not vo:ting is certainly inferentially branding them unworthy citizens. They may be to' all intents and purposes good 'citizens. They reur their fami­lies, pay their taxation, and contri­bute their fair share to' the welfare vI the State, and they claim the same right, as far as' exercising a vote is con oorneJ, a.s in<;lividuals do with regard to o·ther in­stitutions that we regard as being for the benefit of the State. Our own parks and gardens within a stone's throw of this building are regarded as institutions I}al­culated to improve the health and physi­cal well-being o,f the people. Thousands of people visit those parks and gardens and enjoy them. There are thousands who do not. The Government may a.s well use the same argument with respect to those parks and gardens as they are using with regard to voting-that we snould compel the public to patronize them' because they are beneficial to the oommunity. The same argument might as well be applied to the churches. They

504 Electoral [ ASSElVIBL Y . ] Bill.

stand as the mO'ral and the spiritual ele­vators of the people, and it would be a bad day for civilization if they were eli­minated from our midst. No one dare

• suggest that attendance at these institu­tions, good as they are, should be made compulsory. Right through our his­tory , which is an account of a long and fierce struggle on the part of mankind against slavery, the fight fOor freedom has gone on until we have reached the present stage of our civilization. Al­though the last word has not been spoken wi th respect to freedom and Ii berty, I think that the State should jealously safeguard the privilegeS that we have in that particular direction. Those who fought for the extension of the franchise to the masses 0.£ the people fought long and valiantly and sacrificed themselves throughout the centuries. When they were fighting there was no suggestion Oon the part of any o.f them that when the people did get the right to vote its exer­<:ise should be made compulsory. When the franchise was extended to the masses of the people voting was left optiOonal. It was claimed, and rightly so too, as a triumph of the masses over the privileged classes. The last country that should introduce anything like cOompulsory voting is Australia, in view of its own history. The people who came out to settle Aus­tralia were " cabin'd, cribb'd, confined" in their Oown country-in the little isles in the northern seas. Englishmen, Scotchmen, Irishmen, and Welshmen left their own cOountries and migrated here under difficulties. The ships on which they crossed the seas we would nOot venture on to-day. They came here to found homes and families and to get a wider liberty and freedom, and in ttle face of oppositiOon and the endurance of .priva­tions they made good. They had nothing to assist them except their o,wn efforts­nothing except the liberty that had been conferred upon them in the past, and that liberty they exercised to t.he best ad­vantage. They had no race to help them. The race that was he,re was only a hindrance to their welfare, but they pro­gressed and made good. They inherited freedom from their ancestors, and strove for greater freedom here. Oompulsion such as is suggested III this Bill they abhorred. For the Australia we have to-day they are respOlYsible, and this is the last country, in my .opinion, that should pass a law 00£ this

Mr. McLachlan.

character. The measure has been con­demned generally, but mainly on account O'f the cQimpulsory vO'ting proposal. That is its leading feature, but although it has been urged that compulsoTY voting has. been adopted by the national' Parlia­ment, if one looks at the Commonwealth Ii ansm'd one will be struck by the ab­sence of interest shown in the measure there. In the Upper House theTe were five speakers, and the leaders made r.o observations on the subject at all. When the Bill was transferred to the Lower House, the leaders were silent. There were, I think, only two speakers. There may have been three, but there were not more, and the Bill was passed almost in silence as if that Parliament were ashamed Oof it. Now it is urged that we should pass this Bill in orde.r to get more people to the PQill. Well, in my opiniOon, there is Oonly one way of doing that, and that is the Qild way, which has succeeded in the building up of our in­stitutions. Tha.t way is through educa­tion. Of course, there are othe,r difficul­ties to overcome in ge,tting people to vote. We should all like to see a bigger per­centage of vOotes recorded at the pOoIL We know what the franchise me,ans. When persons did nOot have the franchise they complained tha,t they had to! Oobey the law in the making Oof which they had no vooice. At this stage I have nothing more to say with regard to the Bill,lmt that is the main provision as far as I am concerned~ In my opinion it is a back­ward step and an infringement of the civil and religious rights of the people. We ought to treasure and safeguard the rights that we haNe, and I intend to vote against the second reading.

Mr. JACKSON.-I agree with uher spe1akers tha,t this Bill is of great import. ance to the people of this country, :lnd: in my opinion it should be tackled from a non-party stand-point, because it affects everyone of us. The first question that we should ask ourselves is whether t.he present law conforms with all that is right and proper and just in getting the win of the people transferred through the bal­l,ot-box. If "ve view it from that angle we may brush from our minds any little pre­judices that. we may have and gOo into the matter quite impartially. I take it that the object of any electoTal law should be to obtain a reflection of the will of the people. I do not believe that the present

Electoral [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924. J Bill. 505

law contains all the machinery necessary fOlr securing a proper expression of the will of the electors. The next question that we should ask ourselves is whether the amendments pr<~posed in this Bill will improve the Act. If they do so only in a slight degree, I believe that we are on the right tracle I ha.ve not heard one honorable member say that the adoption of these proposEd amendments will inter­fere with any of the good points of the €xisting law. I take it that it is the acknowledged objeet O'f us all to imprO've the Act as mueh as possible. The best machinery should be prO'vided so that the people may have the fullest and freest opportunity of recO'rding their votes. It is useful that we should experiment sO' that progress may be made. I have beard references t.o.-day to what cur fore­fathers did in this matter, and that we should be content with the custom that exists. I am not a believer in that kind of thing. I think that experiments are goO'd. It is O'nly by €xperimenting that we are gO'ing to make progress. If the experiment now prO'posed is given a fair trial, I believe that it will result in pro­gress, and that is what we all want. It has been repeatEdly stated by prominellt statesmen and in the press that when questions are put befo~e the people, the shame of it is that the expression O'f their will cannot be obtained. Certain persons are so indifferent to their own welfare and to the welfare of others that they are actually too lazy to walk any distance to the polling booth in order to record their votes. It is not because they are not intelligent. in other direc­tions, and it is not because if they took the trO'uble to go to the ballot-box they -could not record ,an intelligent vote. I know plenty of pe,aple in this community who will not exert themselves to the least d~gree in order to vote. After the adop­tion 'ot compulsory enrolment for the Fede·ral Parliament it was marvellous how people began at once to wonder if their llames were on the rolls. Liability to a nne of £2 impelled numbers of people to see if they were enrolled. It was not that they had any particular inclination to inspect the rolls, but that fine of £2 was the great impelling force. I think there will be' a similar result in this other <li;ection.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-There were a good many eligibles who would not exert them-

selves to go to the war. Would you con­script them?

:Thtlr. JACKSON.-I am. not talking about men who would compel another to sacrifice his life when they were not pre­pared to risk their own lives. In the course of the discussion on this Bill a lot has been said as to how our forefathers fought for liberty. I think we may take it that they would not ha,ve been. content to stand by and see the thmg whICh they fought for so ill-used as it is to-day. If they had thought that the people would misuse such a privileO'c as is the case to-day, our forefath~r~ ~vould. not have ~ought, for it in the way m whICh they dId. Therefore, it is the duty of those who follow in their foot­steps to see that they did not fight in vain. Those who fail voluntarily to do their duty should be compelled to do it. He who does anything because it is a cus­tom makes no choice, and gains no prac­~ice either in discerning or devising what IS best. I believe in experiment if experi­ment makes for progress. A lot of people say, ":Leave it to the voluntary system and everything will be all right." In my opinion, the voluntary system has been tested. and found wanting, and it is up to us to Introduce some other method which will give better results. Human nature is not a machine to be built after a model and set to do the work in a. prescribed' manner, but a tree which requires to grow and deyelop itself on all sides, according to the Inward forces which make it a liv­ing t·hing. We want to make this Elec­toral Act a living thing and an honour to the. people who exercise their rights • under It. Much has been said about tak­ing away the liberty 'of the individual. I believe that individual liberty has its limits. Where individual liberty con­flicts with the w.ell-being of the com­~u~ity, then i~dividualliberty reaches its lImIt. In thIS case I think that is so. While what is proposed may curtail the liberty of the individual. it would be in the interests of the community. Some men;tbers have stated that because people are Ignorant they would not cast an intel­li~ent vote. Let me. give some figures '~Ith regar~ to the votmg for the Legisla­tIve OouncIl. In 1910, 35 per cent .. of the electors on the roll voted' in 1913 ~7 per cent.; in 1916, only 37 'per cent.; m 1919, as low as 30 per cent.; and: in

5.0.6 Electoral [ASSEMBLY.J Bill.

1922, only 29 per eent. Now I want to point out that those qualified to vote for' the Legislative Council are not all ignorant people, and they are not all un­educated people~ If the argument is good that it is only unintelligent people ,vho refrain from voting; then a lot of the erectors who have the qualification to vote for the Legislative Oouncil are in that category. Let us look at the voting percentage under the voluntary system in other States. In New South Wales. it was 68; in Western Australia, 74; and in Tasmania, . 73; while in Victoria the high-est record is 63.

Mr. MAcKRELL.-Not on very complete rolls ~

Mr. Jl\.CKSON.-That is so, but the rolls nevel' are complete. In Queensland, the voting under the voluntary system was, in 1912, 75 per cent; but, in 1915, nnder the comp:ulsory system, it was 88 per cent.

Mr; Tou'rcHER.-Did that improve the quality of membersh~p ~

Mr. JACKSON.-Judging by the work of the Queensland Government, I should say it did. With regard to the alteration of the time limit for enrolment, it has been said that it would be quite possible for a large section of the population to in:fil.uence an· election by moving from one electorate to another. With the property qualification, could not the same thing be dORe ~ With proper organization it would .bE! possible to manipulate pl'op~rty qu.alifiication votes in the metrop~litan urea.

Mr. SNowBAr~L.~It. ~s contended that the propel'ty 'Vote is merely to gi"ye those' entitlIed. to expl'ess an opinion ali oppor­i.unity of doing so. It is different from Rhifting a block vote.

Mr. JACKS0N.~"Vhy can they not do ·that ,\\Ih{i)re they live ~ . We had a recent ·illustrat1ion. The hon0rable member for TOOl~alt was a certainty for his electorate, ahd he transferred his vote to another district, so I read in the press. If thR.t can be done in one instance, can it not be done in m any instances ~

Mr. OLouGH.-They are not all as un­scrupulous as th~ ex-Chief Secretary.

Mr. JACKSON:-I do not know about -that. I believe the compulsory voting ~7stcm will be of immense value to thi.s ;c·&nntry. -' r am no't one ,af' tho'se people -uiM -thi~ that if you 'compel a manto

vote he will make: his- vote in:£oirmarl. He may go and do something the first tim:e that is not altogether right, but eYentUlaHy he will cultivate his. mind in. the diTectit(l):h in which he has to cast his. vote, be. a good citizen and: a wondedul help tID: the country gelilerally..

Mr. :McADAM.-I have much pleasure ~ supporting this Bill to amend the elec­toral law. The property qualification is- a blot on the progress of the community as it was included in the Bill that WaiS, passed last session. The. desire of our party is to- get the expressed will e£ the peo.pl{! at all elections. From the- figures qua.ted in this House by hOllll.:0rabte members. C1i)B.­

cerning enrolments in certa-in elect0rate.s on the property qualification, it is ap:­paJrent to all that the expressea will of the people is not. shown wheR a person wha is resid:ing in one elecll(i):rate votes in another for the Legislative· A&­sembly. It is remarkaMe also that mem­bers who advocate this property qualifi­cation will frustrate the will of the peop}c in connexion with the elections £or an­other Chamber. I cannot understand why members who advocate the principle will debar the extension of the franchise to' another place. I heartily support nlause 3, because I realize the reactionary methods incorpora,ted in the present law. We realize that iust prior to every gene­ral election there are a number of young people who becG)}ne adults. We experi­enced that at the 1ast election. Owing to the provision that they have to be enrolled 30 day.s prior to the dissolution, a num­her of people were debarred from voting f or the Assembly. This is a hardship on people who desire to make use of tho franchise and hav.e an interest in the wel­fare 0.£ the community. It practically means under the present system· that an elector who may remove from one con­stituency to another prior to an election is called upon to reside in that consti­tuency for the period of two months in order to be enrolled. I had evidence brought under my notice in Ballarat of p~ople who were not able to fulfil the re­sidential qualification for enrolment. Some of these people found themselves in the -unfortunate position of having their homes sold over their heads, and, on account of the two-months' qualifica­tion, they were debarred from enrolling in -the ne~ constituel!l.'cy. In connenon with

Electoral [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill. '507

that clause, I think it is the duty of the Parliament of Victoria, and of every other State, to step into line with the Commonwealth, and have simplicity and uniformity of enrolment. The people will then be able to understand properly the method of conducting elections. When they realize the lines on 'which enrolment is based, they will recognise their respon­sibility. I am sorry to think that there is no clause in the Bill to abolish the £()stal vote, which is open to corruption. We have had many experiences in Bal­larat where there has been corruption in connexion with the postal vote. When it comes to securing a vote, unless the people are able to sign their/own names, they are debarred. That is an injustice. It leads the way to corruption. Much has been said of the clause dealing with the ab­sentee vote. The absentee vote is very essential from more than one stand-point. Even in Ballarat I have known of numbers of people who have had to travel morre than 1 mile because they lived in another subdivision. There are divisions where the neare3t polling booth is just below the dis­tance of 5 miles. The electors cannot secure the postal vote, and <:>n election day they have to go that distance to vote, al­though they 'are right opposite a polling booth. There is a polling booth for those living on pne side of the street, and yet those living on the other side are in an­other subdivision, and have to go about 5 miles to cast their votes. That is one reason why we should include the ab­sentee vote as incorporated in this Bill. We have been told that the absentee vote leaves the way open for imposition. I do not know that any cases of imposition have occurred in connexion with the ab­sentee vote. We will take the argument that a man goes to Mildu,ra and wishes to vote under the name of John Brown of Ballarat. What is the result ~ The presid­ing officer takes his declaration .1t Mil­dura saying he is John Brown of Bal­larat. The infomation is given to the returning officer at Ballarat, and what does he do? I am speaking of the Fede­l'al elections now. That' officer imme­diately looks up the Federal roll. He sees if the name of John Brown men­tioned in the declaration is on the roll. If it is, the official immediately sets in­quiries moving to find the whereabouts of Brown on that day. Somebody must

c be there who knows where Brown is. If John Brown is not at Mildura 011

that day the vote will be cast 'aside. ,It is easy to understand why there are .names of dead people on our rolls. At the sarp.e time a record' is kept 0·£ those

"who have died since 'the printing of the rolls, and although the scrutineers and poll clerks may not be aware of the record, some official has it. In this way there is no chance of impersonation in absent voting. So far as compulsory voting is concerned, numerous complaints have been made that no,t sufficient interest js taken at election time by many people, and, in the circumstances, it is the duty of Parliament 'to take such action as will arouse the jnte-rest of electors in the political proceedings .of the day and to their duty to their country. I do HO,t know that it will have a very satisfactory resul~ in many ways, but, ,when people 'begin to realize that they are liable to a penalty for not c~sting a vote they will be inclined to ta.ke a little more interest in what is passing than they do now, and may be induced to do their duty to their country. We will compel them to take notice of the political situation, and, as we have com­pulsory enroolment, I think wei should also have compulsory vo.ting. I am sony pro­vision is not made in this Bill fOT the ,polling booths' used at Federal electio11l to, be also the polling booths for State ~lections. I know of some people who went to record their votes at the last elec­tion at the place where polling takes' place for Federal elections. They found, how­ever, that the State poning booth was three-quarters of a mile away, and, owing to the state of their health, the'y could not see their way to walk that d.istance. We ought, as soon as possible, to secure uniformity in this direction. I hope the House will see fit to pass this Bill.

Mr. OMAN.-There are some pro­visions in this Bill that I am prepared to support, but there are many othe-rs to which I am strongly opposed. The abo­lition of the property qualification is one of the provisions I object to. If the owner of a large property, desires to be enrotlled. ,in the district where his chief interests are centred he is entitled to do so. That will not provide fOT dual voting, because it could be provided that the elector' could vote in only orne constituency, and he would naturally desire to do so where his big int~rests lie.

508 Electoral [ ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

Mr. HUGHES. - That leaves the door open fa.r corruptia.n.

Mr. OMAN.-Not nearly so much as the provision which will allow hundreds of people to be enrolled right up to the dat~ of the poll. That is a far wider and more dangera.us provision, as it will en­able people to swen the rolls unfairly in certain constituencies.

Mr. HUGHES.-Would it not suit your own side II

Mr. OMAN.-All that we should aim at is to give every €lector a fair oppor­tunity of registering his v?te. . I happen to know that on one Q1ccasIOn In my own constituency a number of peop,Ie under the age of 21 registe,red va.tes. If there is a pretty keen organization abuses will creep in under this prQlvision.

Mr. BAILEY. - Is that why your majority was so large ~

Mr. OlVIAN. - The votes were oJ r~o value to me. Cases were invesHgated, and the allegations were sustained. My organizers were nOit responsible for t~ose enrolments. If a property-owner d€snes to vote in a certain constituency where he has large interests no injustice is in­flicted on anyone in allowing him to do so. He cannot vote in any other con­stituency.

Mr. TuNNECLIFFE. - Except at a by-' ele,ction.

Mr. OMAN.-In that respect the elec­tor could be compelled td declare where he intended to vote, but we should not wipe out the property qualification al­together.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Will you agree to an amendment in the direction you have indicated ~

Mr. OMAN.-I'intend to vote against the second reading of this Bill. I am against so many of its provisions, and t.he objections I have far outweigh any a~­vantages I see in othe,r clauses I am III

fa.vour of. I do not know any material obJection can be raised .t.o the proposal with regard to the reImbursement of members' expenses. , It is a fact that dur­ing an election campaign every member ha.s about four times as much wa.rk to do than at any other time. This proposed payment is a reasonable provi~i~n. I would be in fava.ur of pro~IdIllg for absent voting at any ba.oth within the electorate for which the voter is enra.lled, but I am nOit in favour a.f making absent voting State-wide. .

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-Do you not think it has been an advantage in the Ca.mmon­wealth to have that pro,vision ~

Mr. OMAN .-1 t.hink it is open to abuse, as we have no prope,r system of checking. \Ve should ha,ve greater pre­cautions to see that only those entitled to vote do so. We have talked a good deal in the past about the number of people who do not va.te, and it has been said that to get over this difficulty we should provide for cOimpulsOiry voting. I do not think there is much virtue in a provision of that sO'rt. If we compel pea.ple to register a vote we may induce a feeling of resentment which will lead to the elector Inaking his vo·te informal. During the last election there we,re hundreds of people in my constituency who could not pc;,ssibly have re-ached the nearest polling booth because the roads we,re practically impassable. In some instances vehicles were axle deep in the mud, and it was quite impossible, even with a complete organization, to get these people to a polling boO'th. It is not to'o much to my that 10 per cent. a.f the names 0'11 the rolls are not those a.f effective va.ters. I can give an instance a.f what occurred in my own district. A young woman's name was placed on the first Commonwe,alth roU that was ever prepared. She lived within 18 miles of my o,wn hOime. She left theprQl-gerty where she was resid~ng fifte'en or eighteen years agO. She marned and reared a family, and has been dead for several years, still her name appeared on the State ra.ll for the recent election.

Mr. BROWNBILL. - That was her daughter.

Mr. OMAN.-NQI; it was herself. There are many persons a.n the 1'0.11 not entitled to vote, but in whose na·mes effec­tive votes may be reca.rded a.n electioll day. Any person whO' impersonated the woman to whom I refer could have va.ted, It wa's only because this woman is well known to me that I was able tOi check her vote. I know of many cases in which the names of dead people are on the roll,' and .of many cases alsO' of the names of people who have remO'ved to other centres being on from six tOi eight roUs.

Mr. HOGAN.-You are drawing a long bow!

1\1:r. OMAN.-No; I stand tOi what I have said. If we adopted a system under which every voter had to present a card, and that card could be canceUed on elec­tion day SO' that no one else could vote a seca.nd time on it, the fraudulent prac­tices to 'which I have referred could nOot occur. In the days of the old electoral

Electoral, [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill. 509

right that was the system adopted, but we have simplified the procedure. Every person whose name is on' the roll has now a reasonable opportunity of recording his vote, and I would place no obstacle in his way j but I am not in favour of com­pelling a person to vote whQo has no in­terest either in the candidate. or in the result of the election. FQor that reason I am opposed to compulsory vQoting. Per­sons who are interested in an election frOom a party point Oof view do not require com pulsion to make them register their vOotes. We are sQometimes told that the party represented by the present Govern­ment are well organized, and that they do register their votes. I think I may say that the electors who support honor­able members on this side of the House do, when they are properly organized, register their votes; but there are many persons belonging to bOoth parties w hOo take no interest in an election, and will not talie the trouble of going to the polling booth. Seeing that they will not do that of their own accord, if we attempted to apply compulsion to them we would get a very doubtful result. If I may be per­mitted to do so, I would suggest that the Ministry should make provision for the compilation Qof two rolls-one Q1f effective voters and the other of non-effective voters. If a man on the non-!t,ffective rOill could nOit give a satisfactory reason for his neglect to vote, we should nQot permit of the transfer of his name to the effecti ve roll until he had paid the prescribed penalty of £2.

:Mr. BAILEY.-There is not much logic in that. .

Mr. OMAN.-If a man were sincere in his desire to vote, he would pay the £2, and get his name placed on the effective roll.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-You have the faith that moves mountains!

Mr. OMAN.-Possibly some of the electors would e'xpect the candidate to do the paying. In my opinion, the system 1 have suggested would be much more satis­factory in its results than that now proposed.

Mr. HUGHEs.-Did you advocate that principle in connexion with the Electoral Bill the Government of which you were a member introduced?

Mr. OMAN.-Noj I am advocating it to-night because I want to make this Bill as effective as I can. The party to which I belong have made very liberal provision

for the exercise of the franchise by the electors generally. . Mr. HUGHES.-By allowing dual vot­mg.

Mr. OMAN.-No. I was threatened with prosecution because I was not en­rolled for a city cQonstituency. I pQointed out that I was at home, on Saturday and Sunday and wanted to be enroUed in my Q1wn electorate. If I owned a big pro­perty in this city, I think I should be entitled to vote fOir the city if I desired to do so. ,

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-If you only rented an Q1ffice ~

Mr. OMAN.-Yes. It would be quite legitimate to give an elector a choice. 1 happen to represent a cQountry constitu­ency, and, although I spend five days a week in Melbourne, I prefer to exercise my franchise in my own electorate. . Mr. HUGHEs.-If you had property in five or six electorates would you claim the right to be enrolled in them all?

Mr. OMAN.-If it were prQovided that an electQor should be subject to a heavy penalty if he voted in more than Qone of several electQorates in which he was en-rolled I would nQot object. .

Mr. HUGHEs.-Would not that OpOll

the door to corruption 1 . J\fr. OMAN.-N ot to any greater ex­

tent than will the provisions of this Bill. Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Is it not a curiol1s

thing that the property vQote was exercised practically in only one constituency ~

Mr. Ol\IAN.-I suppose it is. That was a seat that was held by Labour.

lVlr. BRowNBILL.-This is not a party Bill.

Mr. Ol\fAN.-There are one or two provisions in the Bill that will be accept­able to bOoth sides of the House. I dOl not intend to s:upport the Bill as submitted. I do not think it will make our electoral law more effective, nor give the electors better opportunities to register their votes. There are apathetic electors, but. that difficulty can be Qovercome by proper organiza tiQon.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Give us the second reading, and any amendment you suggest will be considered in CQommittee.

lY.rr. ·OMAN.-It is my intention to vote against the se'cond reading. . I am not one Qof those who belie,ve that there are 40 per cent. of the electors who do not and will nQot vQote. If our system of enrolment were improved in the manner I have suggested, I think it would he

510 Electoral [ASSEMBL y,] Bill.

found that at least 80 per cent. of the electors would be 0 prepared to go to the poll and register their votes.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE,-Yoru have been speaking for half an hour, and in one statement vou have oontradioted all that JOU said before"

11:r. OMAN.-N o. There are people long since- dead whose names are still on the roll in my constituency. There are 1o\")rk.ing people who left the district eight (,1' mne years ago whose names are still 011 the roll. IT nder this Bill, at the next election, those people could vote to put me out, and vote in another consti-1 uency to put some one else in., I have 110 objection to the provision relating to the Returning Officer writing the names of candidates 0 on the ballot-papers of postal voters. In my constituency, one olector wrote down the names of the three Warrnambool callJiJates and. put "3" opposite the name of Mr. Deany al­t.hough he intended to vote for him. ' He t.hought that he was voting in the \V d!'l'nambool electorate. Had he known 11'8 was in my electorate he would have. put me in the wrong position.

llir. TUNNEcLIFFE.-The amendment in 1hat respect is vcry necessary.

Mr. OMAN.-I have no objection t,) that amendment. There are about three provisions in the Bill that I would be quite willing to support. If the Ohief Hecretary will indicate before the second reading that he will withdraw the three provisions to which I have objected--

Mr. BAILEY.-YOU have not indicated the provisions you prefer.

Mr. OMAN.-One is that the postal hallot-papers shall be made clear, so that electors shall know who are the candidates.

Mr. BAILEY.-What about the reim­bursement provision?

Mr. OMAN.-That appeals to honor­itble members generally, and I do not think there will be much opposition to it; but I do not consider that even that provision would induce honorable mem­bers on this (the Opposition) side of the House to accept the Bill in its present 'form.

Mr. KEANE.-I desire to say a few words in support of the Bill. I suppose there js no man in this House who has taken a more active part in elections than I have. I have fought elections on be­half of candidates on my side for the last

30 years, and when I have heard honor­~ble me~bers on the Opposition side talk­Ing to-mght of °the old pioneers and the great services they rendered to the demo­?ra~y of this co~ntry, I have thought that, If It were possIble for some of the old pioneers to ohear the utterances of some of the so-called ~iberal.s or Nationalists, they would turn In theIr graves. It is ab­,solute hypocrisy and humbug for those men to talk of the great work that was done for this country by the old pioneers when ~hey themselves are stumbling­blo~ks In the way. of all progressive legi:;­latIOn. Every tIme a move is made in the direction of bestowing greater free­dom ~n the people, you :find them stumblmg-blocks. When I was a lad I used to follow the old Liberal party in Ballarat, The s~alwarts in. those days were Oolonel SmIth, Mr. FIncham, and Mr. Bell. They were men who did some good on behalf of the people of this coun­try, and they had the respect, not only of the people of Victoria, but of the whole of Australia. When I look round the House and see the men who are supposed to have succeeded them, and who at one time have called themselves Liberals at another time Nationalists and at another time Progressive League' men, I wonder why. they travel under so many aliases. I thmk the reason is that they have not a policy of their own. Yet, when the Labour party get on to the Treasury bench an? try to do something for the people of thIS country, those men are stumbling­blocks. Before my party got on this (the Ministerial) side of the House I heard the statements made by honor~ble mem­b~rs now on ~he other side, and I listened WIt~ wonder t~ the way. i~ which they attrIbuted all SIllS of omISSIOn and .com­mission to previous Governments. To­day I listened with wonder to the way i~ which they talked about the old pIOneers. They say that it is an inter­ference with liberty to compel people to go and vote. Every law on the stat:ute'-?ook has; the foroo of compulsion behmd It, and on many oCCIasions we force people to do things they do not desire to dOl, an? sormetim~s not to dOl things they do deSIre to do. In the interests of the great mass ,of th,e people we compel them to' do certam thmgs. We have put com­pulsory enrolment on the statute-book, and when we say tha.t the natural corol­lary to that is Clompulsory voting, honor-

Electoral [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.1 Bill. 511:

able mem.bers opp.osite ra~se their hands in holy horror, and sa.y that it is an in­terference with the liberty of the subject. Liberty is an abstract, term. There is no such t.hing as absO'lute liberty. Liberty simply means allowing a,. man to have thet right to do· what the majority of the people say he shall have the right to do. r think a great, many honorable members opposite have sPOIken with their tongues in their cheeks. They dOl nOit knorw what they mean when they talk O'f liberty a.nd freedom. There is force behind every law on thel statute-book, and we say that the majority of the people shall deter­mine what is right and what is wrong. The honorable member for Toorak the other night said that a man should ha,ve the right to' vote where his property in­terests lie, and the, honorable member for Hampden repeated that statement to­night. r was in the position many yeaJ.'s ago o,f feeling tha,t I had a certain amount of interest in my employer's pro­perty. r worked at Port Melbourne a,nd lived at Coburg. r knew that the' can~­date I supported at Coburg was proba.bly a certainty without my vote, and r felt tha,t r had an int,erest in the place where r was, working. Why should r not have been a.llowed to vote at Port Melbourn.e ~

1}.IIr. HUGHES.-Because you would have voted for Labour.

Mr. KEANE.-I wil1 always vote for Labour . We have been told that there is a grea,t amount of apathy, and that people do not care to record their votes. In days gone by, when there was a real Liberal party, it did something for the benefit of the people, but for the last 30 years nothing of any benefit to. t.he great mass of the people has come from that party. As a result the people have become apathetic. When I was can­vassing, and asked people to vote, they Baid, "'Vha t is the use of voting ~ They are all alike." Could you blame them for that when for 30 yea,rs there, had been in porweT a stodgy mass of men calling them­selves Liberals and Nationalists, who did nothing for tha mass of the people, but who made promises year in and year out, and never attempted to keep their promises ~

Nfr, TOUTCHER.-Rot! , Mr. KEANE.-The honorable member

is a specimen. He has been in this' Ho~se fOIl" many years, and he oannot tell me of a,ny measure he ever 'attempted to place on the statute-book for the benefit of the mass of the people.

Maj:Gi' BAIRD.;-The W orker.s' Compen-sa.tion Act. '

lVIr. KEANE.-I am surprised at Ba.I­larat West returning a man of such stodgy Conservative views. I am 'SO!l'ry

to t.hink that I came frClm a district that has put into, the House a man vrho has no greater an. idea o:f liberty and freedom than the honorable member has. I have traced the careers' of all t.he honorable m-embers on the other (the Oppositiou) side of the H?'lise. Da,y in and day out, when canva-ssmg, I have gO[le to people and asked them to vote. They have said, "They arar all alike. When they get outo the Treasury bench they will not do anything for you. They are very glib in their promises; bt'lt oo.ce they get on the Treasury bench they are just the same as the others." I have said repeatedly, " You halve given the ot.her side a chance long enough: give the Labour party a trial. If they do nort dOl anything for you I will never canvass for them again or work for them. " N orw we· ha ve a Laho'Ur Government on the Treasury bench, and they are doing something for the people. I have ~ravelled throughout the length a.nd. breadth o,f Victm.'ia, and only la,tely I have been go,ing round the country and talking to many men and w'Omen on th2 land. As late as to-night three men from the country have said to me- of their pn~sent member, (' He will be ' down and out' at the. next election. We 'are sa,tisfied that the Nationalist party is 110 good to us, and that the Labour pa,rty is going to, do more for us than Ollr own people did for us before." I wish to issue a warning to the Opposi .. han. If they desire to make their posi­tions secure, and to come back to their nice little jobs after the next election, they must show tkat, they have something in common with the great masses of the people by voting for this Bill. I suppose I am pleading in vain. r warn t.hem that their fate will be a sad onel if they reject this measure. They must lea,m to mend their ways. r won my election be­cause the Nationalist party brought for­ward in the Redistribution of Seats Bill a measure the passage of which would ha.ve been a disgrace to! Victoria. The whole object of that Bill was to insure a long run for the so-caned Liberal party. Tha.t they would thereby perpetrate: a wrong to the Sta,te aid not conce,rn. them. !heir a~gument was, tc Th~ Labour party IS groWlng stronger and stronger, and! it.

512 Electoral LAS8EMBL Y.] Bill.

will sOlon be strong enough to turn us , out. vVe must do something. n I foughl my election on that Bill, and succeeded in turning out a Nationalist. He was a man after the type of the ho.no.rable mem­ber for Warrnambo.ol. He had been on every side atone time or another. I heard tne honorable member for Hamp­den say that he believed in'liberty-,-that every man should be, allowed to· go. to the polling booth and exercise his vote with­out being interfered with. It brings to my mind an incident that occurred years ago when Dr. Maloney was contesting a seat. The othe,r side had a man with a camera who was phDtographing men who were voting. The Rerturning Officer en­couraged him to stay at the booth. But Dr. l\1aloney told the man to get Q1utside. The man got. He was evidently afraid that the little doctor would put him out if he did nOit goo voluntarily. That. is the kind of freeldom the Nationalist party would give. I say candidly that I do not believe they have any desire to give free­dom to the masses of the people. Rather they would restrict their liberty in every way possible. If the Nationalists return to power with a decent ,majOirity, I am satisfied they will pass one of thel most conservative Electoral Bills we have ever had in this State. I remember quite re­cently an honorable, member getting up 011 this side of the House and pointing out that there ha~ been a large decrease of stock all Dver Australia. Incidentally, he blamed previo.us Gove'rnments, of 'which he had been a member, for not giv­ing. sufficient encouragement to primary producers to bre'ed stock. When in Oppo­aition, this membe,r said he hDped the Labour Government would do something in the interests of the country prDducers. \Vhen the Premier's policy speech was read, many Opposition membe'rs said some of the items were good, but where was the money tD come from to give effect to them ~ Had the war continued a few more years, ways and means would have been found to carry it on. Now that we have in powe,r a party that is anxious to. carry out progressive measures, the argu­ment is iterated and reiterated, "All very well, but where is the money to come from~" The point is that we must ensure the progress 0'£ the State. It has been said that postal voting is a good thing. I used to think so, but I have since had practical experience of it. I fDund that people were preventing their domestics

Mr. Keane.

from going to the, polling booth. The,y provided authorized witne,sses to witness their domestics' votes. They considered that they had a perfect right to' also wit­ness those votes, and so. they stood along­side the domestics when the posta.! papers were filled in. Of course, if a servant voted for the wrong candidate, he would have a short tenure of his job. I have had personal proof of this. As a munici­pal councillor, I have been called in on several occasions to witness postal votes. I have had to teU the lady of the house to stand away from the domestic, as she had no right, and I had no right, to see who was being voted for. It is because of things of this sort tha t the Labour party are opposed to the postal voting system. vVe kno.w that it is open to abuso and corruption. I llO'pe that this Bill will go through without a postal vo,ting provision. Like the honorable member fDr Ballarat East, I think some simpler method can be adopted. We require a more uniform system of voting. ElectDrs are confused by the multiplicity o.f the metho.ds in .vogue. At sOime municipal elections you strike out the names of the candidates you do not want to vote for. At Dthers you exelrcise the preferential principle ..... , A person who has been in the habit of voting at Cohurg and who shifts to Brunswick will find, if he attempts to vote at Brunswick in the way he had always voted at Coburg, that he will cast an inva1id vote. We have, a different system for the Legislative Assembly and for the Legislative Council. Then there is an­other faT the Federal Parliament. To my mind this confusion is not the result of chance. It has been brought about deliberately to confuse electors. Our op­ponents aTe well trained. They talk abDut the admirable organization of the Labour party. I wish I could believe them. There was a time when we were well organized. Tha t has not be~n the case lately.

Mr. HUGHEs.-Would you like to have the A Irgus be,hind you ~

Mr. KEANE.-Yes, a long way be­hind me. If the Labour Government re­mains in office long enough, I think we shall find that the electo.rs will be better organized, and the result of that will be that many Q1f my friends opposite will lose their seats. I hope they will lose their deposits alsO'. N Q1W, I wish to touch lightly on compul~o.ry vo.ting. In some European co.untries voting is made com-

Adjournment. [23 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Hospitals and Oharities. Act. 513

pulsory. That is the case in Belgium and in Austria. If tWQl-thirds Q1f the people there' do nQlt record their vQltes ~t an election those who fail to do so have to pay the expeuses of a new elect~on. We shQluld introduce some such prinCIple here. I am a firm advocate Q1f compul­sory vQlting. We have be,en told that women are influenced, when casting their votes, by the colour of a man's hair or the cut of his clothes. Well, if the ladies had judged mel' by' my hair I should cer­tainly nQlt have wQln my seat. I think that what has affected women's votes is that faT' so many years they were refused the franchise. They had no interest in politics. Their p01itical education was neglected. There were men who looked forward to the day when the women would be enfranchised, and' they edu­cated their wives in poIitics. My wife was as well informed on pOolitics as I was. FrQlm the ~oment she had the right to vote she was quite capable of e,xercising the franchise inteUigently. It is becaus9 the so-called Liberal party kept women off the rQllls in. days gone by that the women are learning that they have most to gain by casting their votes democratic­ally. I hOope that the day is not far dis­tant when the~l will be sufficiently edu­cated in politics and weU enough organ­ized· to make it impossible fOIl' the Nationalist pa.rty ever again to cQlme into power.

On the mOotion of lVIr. TOUTCHER, the debate was adjourned until the follow­ing day.

ADJOURNMENT.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT: SALE TO MELBOURNE TRAIN.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Pr~mier).-I move-

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr. McLACHLAN.-I desire tQl draw the attention o,f the Minister of Railways to the arrangements that are sometimes made with regard to the running of the train frQlm Sale to Melbourne. Only tQl­day, that train was about an hour and twenty minutes late. About 20 miles out' from Sale sQlmething went wrong with the staff, which necessitated some oue being sent from Traralgou au a trolley, nQlt on an engine. At that porint we lost an hour Q1r an hQlur and a quarte.r. Dur­ing the jOourney to Dandeuong we gained about half an hour. From DandenOong

into lVIelbourne we, howe,ver, lost. half an hour. I want to point out that long distance travellers, who are obliged to' get up at 5 o'clock or half-past 5 o'clock in the morning are entitled to receive from the railway authorities a little considera­tion and a slight pre,ference over city travellers.' On such occasions the least that can be doue for country passengers is to see lhat the line is clear and head­way made from Dandenong to the city, which is practicall y a suburban area. There is no reason why the train should lose half an hour between Dandencmg and. Me,lbourne as it did to-day. I may

. say that the passengers from the Sale end were very muclf displeased at being kerpt so long on the journey. I hope that the lVIiniste-r will see that in future long­distance travellers get a little more con­sideration from the railway authorit.ies.

Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Railways). -I will see that the matter is brought unde,r the nO'tioe of the Railways Com­missioners, and endea,vour to prevent a recurrence of what the honorable mem­ber complains about.

The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 9.54 p.m.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

'Wednesday, September 24, 1924..

The, SPEAKER (the Ron .• Tohn Bowser) took the' chair at 4.8 p.m.

HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES ACT.

MEDICINE FOR GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS. Mr. GROVES asked the Premie~-

If the Government is having the dispensing in Government institutions done by qualified chemists, as required by the Hospitals and Charities Act, and if the law in this respect is being enforced by the Charities Board.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premierr) .-The law on the matter is not as indioated by the honorable member for Dandenong. Section 55 of the Hospitals and Charities Act is as follows:-

No person other than a registered pharma­ceutical chemist, or where the services of Fiuch a chemist are not available, a duly quali­fied medical practit~oner sh all compound any medicine 'or drug for use in any hospital. Any

514: Au.dit r ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

person who a.cts in. contraventi<)U ef this sec­tion shall be punishable as for an offence under section 103 of the Medical Act 1915'.

That is. quite positive, but I wo.uld po.int o.ut. that in sec.tion 5 va.riQus institutiQn'S are: exe'mpted frQm the' o.p.eratio.n o.f the Act. The list 0..£ eiXemptiQns includes:-

Ca) Any hospita.l, asylum, or· institution wholly m.aintained by the State.

It is to. Government institutions that too honora-bIe membea.- refers, and they ~re specially exempted frQm the- opef"atiQn of the Act, which applies o.nly to. institutiQns o.ther than thoS€t run by thB State.

TMPORTATIONS OF WHISKY. Mr. A .. A. BILLSON (O",ens) asltecl

Mr. CAIN (Ho.no.rary Minister), fo.r the Minister Q,f Public Health-

1. If he is aware that, in reply to. certain questions submitted by Mr. Foster, l\1.H.R., on. 16th September insta.nt, the Honorable the Commissioner o.f Customs admitted that a. brand of whisky, being a. blend of 30 peJ: aen,t. of Scotch malt whisky and 70 per cent. of " neutral spirit," was landed in Australia?

2. If be will exercise all the powers vested in him to prevent such liqlilor going into con~ sumptio.n in Victoria.?

Mr. CAIN (H-onorary Minister).-I may point OIUt to. the honorra,ble member that there is no. powe'r to' prevent such whisky going into. cQnsumptio.n, provided the descri ptio.n Qn the ] a bel is nQt mis­le'a.ding.

BILLS READ A FIRST TIME.

The following Bills, introduced by pri­vate members, were read a first time:-

Anzac Day Bill (MajoT Baird). Divorrce Bill (Mr. Snowball).

AUDIT BILL.

Mr. PRENDERGAST' (Premier).-I move----

That this BiU be now read a second time.

CQnsiderable incQnvenience is caused in co.untry districts by the present methQd of payment of aCCQunts by the Treasury. There is a, lirili ted n Ulnber of pa,y offices to which CQuntry accou.nts are scheduled, a.IlJd it is necessary for residents in towns in which there are, nOI T'reasuxy pa,y Qffices to make special arrangements to obtain. payment Qif the mQneys due too them, either by making a persQnaJ visit to the pay o,ffice o.r by giving an Qirderr to a bank Qir Qther agent to collect. This involves trouble and expense, which it is the pur-

pose Qif this Bill Un! 0. bviate. I t is pro­posed" instead Qf sending aecQunts ro CQuutry pa.y OffiCBS, to fQ~aJ:d. cheques direct to the pa.ye,es, so. that there will be no difficulty whatEw.eI to countly. reside.m~· U1 obtaIning· payment o£ Go­vernment a,coorunts. To a.ffelCt this pur~ pose, aill amendment o.f the Audit Act is neCtessa.ry, which is embodied in. the lliIl now submitted. It is desired to' bring thp, n-elw syst,em into operation o.n the 1st October next, and I shall'be glad, there­fore, if the House will eocpedite the passage o.f the. Bill Advantage is bemg taken of this Bill to authorize' payments (D,f sa.laries, wages, and allowances withoi1ll.t. the necessity in all cases of a. receipt being: taken. This is necessa,ry, particularly in eases where manual laboulfers are em­ployed, and' there WQuld be cQn..siderable loss of time in their signing pa.y-sh~ets. As a ma.tter Qf fact, this pra:ctice is alread:y in opera.tiQn to a limited extent, aJil.,d clause 4 of the, Bill valida.tes what is being done in this way. I m:a,y meiJ1tion that t,he Bill has· the concurrence of the A uditorr-GeneraJ. as weU as of the Trea­smy Department. It has been fQ>und necessary in a; number o.f cases to seud cheques to offices in the c0IIintry for certa.in people·. Frequently a cheque is not. coHected for a co.nsiderable period, and th.ere is nOI means of taking it out. o.f an office withQut the person to whQm the money is due cQUecting it fQr himself. By this Bill we propose to follow the Qrdjnary business practice. Cheques will be posted to. t.he persons too whom mQney is due, and the letter cQntaining the cheque will be deliv.e'red in the ordinary wa,y, inste,ad Qf peO'ple ha.ving to. travel, perhaps 50 miles, too a pay office.

Dr. ARGYLE.-Is nQt that the practice in connexiQn with payments by the CQmmonwealth 1

l\1r. PRENDERGAST.-I .cQuld not say, hut I belie,ve it is. We proPQse, however, to adQpt it hBre, with the general CQncurrence Qf thB Qfficers CQn­cerned, and to simplify the· making or payments.

Mr. EGGLESTON .-Can thB hQnorable gentleman say if a person who receives mQney o.n public account has to. stamp the receipt 1

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-We will be dpaJing with that matter SQme time in the future.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-But the questiQn is relevant to this particular matter;

Audit [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Bill. ·515

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-! think it is necessa.ry to give a. receipt, because the Audito·r-Gene,ral demands seme kind ef recogni tion of the transaction tha,t has taken plaice. ! think lVIr. Norris, the AuditeT-General, may be depended upon t'J leek after the public interest in that regard.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I wanted to find out whether this Bill involved any loss of public revenue. A practice has grown up whereby cheques that are payable to order do not carry a receipt. The cheque itself is regarded as sufficient.

Mr. SNOWBALL.-The, Act says that there shall be a receipt.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The Act says the buyer may compel a receipt to be given. This practice of not giving a receipt in­volves a big loss of revenue. I am not sure whether money. received from the Treasury requires a receipt.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-I think they do not require a receipt for money received from the Treasury.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I am not sure about that. I have been required by a public officer to give a receipt. However, I have mentiened this matter 8'0 that the Treasurer can look into it.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).­Cheques that are payable by order in­velve a different transactien. The pub­lic are affected. These cheques do not necessitate a receipt as long as they are endorsed by the receiver of the money. We lose a lot of money through this trans­action. I find, in addition, that people drawing money from the Treasury need not stamp a receipt. I am looking into this matter, because I do not see why the payment of duty should be avoided in these transactions.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and

committed. Olauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. Clause 3-(Receipt forr' payment to per­

son authorized to receive). Mr. SNOWBALL:-With reference to

the point raised by the honorable member for Rt. Rilda, and the statement made by the Premier that it was his intention to have the Stamps Act complied with in respect of these payments, I would suggest that we can do all that is necessary by slightly. amending this Bill. The amen?-.ment could, if necessary, be made In another place. The Treasury could de-

duct the amount required for duty pur­poses out of the cheques. That would pr0tect the revenue. I sec no reasO'n why receipts that are given to the Trea­sury for payment should not be stamped in the ordinary way. A stamp has to be put on a receipt by the perS0n re­ceiving money in all ordinary circum­stances, and there is no reason why the practice should not be general.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-We lose about £3,000 a year now.

Mr. SNOWBALL.-It would be a simple matter to authorize the Treasury to' deduct frem the ameunt ef the cheque a sum sufficient to cover the stamp duty. Could we nOit meet the Premier's wish in the matter by making a slight alteration in this Bill ~

'Sir ALEXANDER PEACOOK.-The Pre­mier is turning over in his mind other ways of taxing the people.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).­This question will come up fo·r < considera­tion later. I therefer·a ask the honorable member for Brighton not to delay the passage of the· Bill. Money has been held baok lately. We have had to establish pay offices in certain places in anticipatiO'n of the passage of this measure.

The clause was agreed to', as were the. remaining clauses.

The Bill was reported without amend­ment, and the report was adopted.

On the motion of Mr. PRENDER­GAST (Premier) the Bill was read a third time.

WORKERS' COMPENSATION BILL.

The debate (adjourned from Septem­ber 17) on the motion of Mr. TUNNE­CLIFFE (Chief Secretary) for the second reading of this Bill, was resumed.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I dO' not at this stage ,propose to' discuss the Bill, but I desire to enter a protest against, the manner in which the business of the House is being -conducted. As this is show week honora ble members are having a busy time with their con­stitu.ents. They see their business sheet and anticipate that Bills will be taken in the order in which they appear upon it. We know that it is necessary. that a Supply Bill should go through to­night--

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-The ·delay in sub­mitting the Supply Bill:is due to the

516 Workers' [ASSEMBLY.1 Ccmpensation Bill.

Governor being iii in bed. We a.re wait­ing now for the return of the papers.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAOOOK.-We might have been told that before. Hon­orable members anticipated that the Sup­ply Bill would be brought on, and they desire to call attention to various mat­ters in which they are interested. I was engaged elsewhere last night, but I un­derstood that the Wheat :Marketing Bill was to be introduced, and the motion for the first reading moved.'

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-It will be intro­duced to-day.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The Premier should keep faith with the House. Nobody protested when certain orders of the day were postponed to per­mit of the Audit Bill being taken, but now we have another 'chop and change, and the Workers' Compensation BiU is called on. The Electoral Bill has been before the House on several occasions, and then the debate has been ·adjourned. If the business sheet were f'Ollowedhon­orable members would know where they were. When they were on this side of the House honorable members opposite protested most vigorously if there was any departure from the previously an­nounced 'Order of business. Almost every night we were asked what business was to be taken on the following day.

Mr. BAILEY.-And you used to jum,p about with the business.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK. -That is not so. It was only when some­thing exceptional occurred that there was any change made in the order of business. I know that several honorable members are interested in this Bill. Some of the country members have been debating it, and they iare not here at present.

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-You asked for the adjournment o£ the debate.

.Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.­That is so, but when we have a business sheet placed before us we do not expect to have these sudden changes made in it.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-We have been in­finitely courteous in our efforts to meet the convenience of the honorable mem­ber.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAOOCK. -I do not think so. The Government have been ,successful in getting several small Bills such as the J epari t Land Bill, the

Richmond Land Bill, ,and the North Carlton Land Bill put through, and their object no doubt was to' give another place some work to go on with, but these are what. are called" pot-boilers." The other measures the Government have introduced are Bills that they found in the pigeon­holes of their departments, and that we had not an opportunity of finalizing. Last night the Chief Secretary read us a splendid speech on the Gas Regulation Bill, and thanked the Gas Inquiry Com­mittee for the fine work it had done. But he and the party to which .he belonged opposed the appointment of that Com­mittee. Then we had the Cattle C'Om­pensation Bill. I repeat that the Go­vernment should keep faith with honor­able members in regard to the Bills that are to be proceeded with on particular days. I hope that'some other honorable member will be prepared to speak on this Bill, and having filled the gap by lodging a protest against the departures that are being made from the business sheet I will leave tl;le matter for the present.

Mr .. EGGLESTON.-I support the protest made by the Leader of the Op­sition on one particular ground especi­ally, and that is that the House Ibas not yet had any information supplied to it as to the result of the new scales and 'the new provisions of this Bill. The Chief Sec­retary when introducing the Bin gave in­formation to the House which is not quite accurate. He said that there would be no increase of premium rates, but rather a reduction.

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-I did not antici­pate any increase.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-If the honorable gentleman will consult his officers I think he will find that the Bill does involve an increase in the actuarial calculations upon which the premiums 'are based, and I do not think the House should consider the Bill in detail un till the information on that subject has been supplied. What I understand the Chief Secretary to be going on i,s this: That the State Insur­ance Office is making a profit, and that that profit can be drawn upon to' meet any additional cost of insurance at these extra rates. That in my opinion is un­sound in principle. The profit which has been accumulated by the State In­surance Office is in the nature of a re­serve to meet' contingencies.

Workers' [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Gompensa:i)n Bill. 517

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-N ot so far as the State Insurance Office is concerned.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I do not know whether the honorable gentleman would have us believe that the other insurance offices 'make big profits.

l\fr. TUNNECLIFFE.-V\T e know that the Employers' Association is making enor­mous profits.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-That may be so, but the question depends upon ,,,hat par­ticular rate you are dealing with. There are all sorts of rates. There are rates for men in clerical employment, for men and women in domestic employment, for persons in hazardous employments, and so on. Some of these are profitable, and some are unprofitable. I do not see how the Ohief Secretary can say that there will be no increase in the premiums in regard to ,some of these occupations. I suggest th'at there will be a fairly lar~e increase in premiums. I do not say thIS in opposition to the Bill. I am strongly in favour of its main principles, but the House should have submitted to it some sort of evidence, either from the Govern­ment Statist or the manager of the State Insurance Office, as to what premiums will be charged in future on the new rates provided for by the ~ill. Until that .in­formation has been gIven I do not thmk the House should proceed further with the Bill, and I would ask that in the meanwhile it be postponed.

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-I am not pre­pared to agree to the postponement of the Bill, but I will give to honorable mem­bers any information that is available.

Mr. ALLAN.-I have to confess that I do not like this Bin at all. In regard to the remarks of the Leadm: of the Oppo­sition it is true that we do not now know what business is coming on in the House, and it is not fair that Bills of which many of us do not approve. shoul~ be called on without proper notice. The Government has jumped about from mea­sure to measure. They did so the other day, and the result of such a procedure may be that divisions will be taken at a time when honorable members who are interested in Bills are absent. That is unfair to them. To-day the Government go right down to nearly the end of the notice-paper, a1!-d. then ~hey. c~me back again. The obJect of thIS BIll IS clearly

enough defined in clause 2. In the inter­pretation of "worker," for £350 a year there is to be substituted £10 per week. Tha t is the effect of the Bill so far 'as insurance is concerned, and the increased cost wiI.l be taken from practically a sec­tion of the people. I do not object to anyone being insured, but I do say it is hardly fair that an employer should have to bear the whole of the respon­sibility. He is required to insure his employees, and if he fails to do so he in­curs the whole of the lia bili ty under the Bill up to £750.

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-This question was threshed out twenty years ago.

Mr. ALLAN.-I was not here twenty years 'ago. The Bill has to be dealt v;rith by honorable members who are here to-day. Some time ago I mentioned a glaring case that occurred at Rochester, and I propose to give the particulars of it again to show how unfairly this system may work. A contractor had :a contract on the east side .of Rochester. When it was finished, at about mid-day, the teams were told to shift to

, another contract on the west side. They started to move over. The driver of the teams, I suppos·e, pulled up. Pro­bably it was a hot day. At all events, he stopped quite, a long time in the t.own of Rochester, and I presume that when going out in the evening he fell asleep on t.he, waggon, with the result that he fell out and one of the' whee,ls went ove:r him. Hel was killed. It was said that tha,t oc­curred in the employe,r's time and the employe,r had tOt pay £600.

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-He should have been insured.

lVIr. A.LLAN.-I unde,rstand that it was a long time, after the liour of 5 o'clock when the man was killed.

Mr. COTTER.-A.pparently he was still in charge of the horses.

}Ir. ALLAN.-The case went to Court, and the, deicision of the Court was tha.t the employe~ was liable for compen­sation. The insurance company said, " We, have not to> pay be1causel we have only to pa.y when a, man is injured within the prescribed hours." As t.he accident occurred after 5 00' clock the employer had to meet the liability.

Mr. SLATER.-Will you give the name of tha,t case 1 I do not think your law is right.

518 Workers' [ASSEMBL Y . ] Compensation Bill.

Mr. ALLAN.-I can give the honor­able, gentleman the name, of the contrac­to'r.

Mr. SLATER.-How long ago was that case 1

Mr. ALLAN.-Aboru:t a, year ago .. . Mr. SNOWBA.LL.-A policy covers aU

risks incurred by the employer. Mr. ALLAN.-No; it covers all risks

within the prescribed hours of work, but it does not cover risks outside, of the pre­scribed hours. In the case, I have, men­tioned, thel Court said that the, man who was killed was in cha,rge' of the, teams beJonging to thel contractor, and made the contractor pay.

An HONORABLE MEMBER.-He was not insured.

Mr. ALLAN.-He was insured. He was killed at 8 or 9 0' clock at night, but he was still in charge of the teams.

Mr. SLATER.-He was killed in the. course of his employment, and that is the, test of the wholel position.

lY.I:r. ALLAN .-1 do not stand he,re as one who can explain legal points, but I have told the House what the Court de­cided. To look at the Bill from another point of vie,w, the Government says that a· man who gets £10 a week must be in­sured by his employer. The employer has to take the whole ~f the responsibility. It. <ioes not ma,tte,!' if he, employs a man for only one, day in the, year, if that man iB killed during the' day the employer is liahle tOo pa.y £75'0 in compensation. I said be,foTe that the Bill was for the bene­fit of a class and I will give my reasons. Various Gov€,rnme,nts ha,ve put on closer se,ttlement blocks about 12,000 Victorian and overseas settle,rs. Those men are not e'arning anything like £10 a week, but the're is no way of insuring them. Have not they just as much right to be insured as a man who happens to' .come, along and do a day's work for onel of them ~ The Government say, "Wei are going to pick out a section of men who work for wage,s up to £10 a week, and provide that they must be insured up to £750, but we shall leave, everyone, else, out." Tha,t is not a, fair deal tOo people who are in a very much worse positiOon than the men drawing £10 pe,r week. In my opinion a man w hQo is drawing a salary of that amount ca.n e,asily afford to insure himself. I am not gOoing to support clause 2. It is all very well to say that it will not affect the, emplOoyer, but it. meB;ns bring­ing in a great many more people if the

definition o.f (( worker" is amended' to include persons who earn £10 a week or leas. It will undoubtedly mean that insurance rates will go up. That will be another tax on the employer. In the country districts determinatiOons Oof city Wages Boards and a, number of other t?ings are beling introduced, and everythmg somehow seems to be, knock­ing thel employe[". Thel whole of the lia­bility is put on him, and he is given no redress. I shall rela,te, another case that came unde,r my notice. A farmer en­gaged a man to put up some fences. It was pie-eel-wOork, and he, did not know tha.t it was necessary to insure the man. The latter had a sore hand when hel started work. It was not very se,rious, but it got worse. He went to a doctor, and had to have it lanced. He also went to a solicitor tOo find ,out if hel could go fOor his employer a,nd get £600. However, the solicitor told him tha,t as he had received the, wound tha,t caused the swelling while hel was at work at another yla,ce, he had not a go'od easel, and he did not go any further. In that case the emplOoyer was a small farmer who employs velry little labour. He did not reany know tha,t he should ha.ve insured the man whom he employed, and he! might havel been landed with the, lia-bility too pay that man £600, which would ha,ve ruined him. .

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-It ce,rtainly would have ruined the widow if the, man had been killed, and had no,t been insured.

1\1r. ALLAN.-Whose widow ~ Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-The wife of the

man who was killed or liable to be killed. Mr. ALLAN.-That is all very weU,

bu t if the owner of a small block gets killed his widow has to dO' the, belst sh.e can. She gets nothing.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-He can insure him­sel£.

Mr. ALLAN.-Any one can insure himself, but a man who insures him­seH has to' pay the premiums himself . The Bill not only casts the obligation on the employer to pa,y for the insura.nce, but ma,kes him liable, for the payment of £750 if hel dO'es not pay it. I ~m sur­prised that the' Gove,rnment should bring in measures of thiJ3 kind, and when we are dealing with Supply I shall mention the question of the, extension of Wages Boa,rd awa.rds to the, country. It is all very well for Ministelfs to think tha,t they can eade,nd all thesel things to country dis-

Workers' [24 SEPTEM.BER, 1924.] Oompensa.tion Bill. 519

tricts, and hurt the employer as much as they like, but the time may come when we will say, "You: Ganno.t do it."

:Mr. POLURD.-Would you begrudge the small amount it would cost you to insure a £.M'n:L hand ~

Mr. ALL.AN.~If thet honora,ble, mem­be~ had li~teolled to met he would know tha,t I was not complaining a.bout the amount of the insurancel premiums. I wa,s complaining that men, poorer' than men getting £10 a week, will have to takei all the liability if they do not have their employees insured. I do not be­lieve it is a sound principle to put a liability of that kind on the emp10yer.

Mr. JACKSON .-On whom would you put it-the employee~

Mr. ALLAN.-I would put it on the honorablet member, and then he might be satisfied·. It does not matter so much to a big maoll who employs 50 or 100 men. He knows he has to insure his men, and he takes out a, policy with an insurance company. He pays a premium based on his wages-shee,t. The big employe.r is always insured. It is the man. who em­ploys a la,bourer, perhaps fOT only a, day or two a week, or a day or two· in the year, who may suffer. It is not fair to such a, man. I t means that he has to pay an insurance premiu:m., and, if he happens to havel a man working for him who is not insured, he' is liable fo'r the payment of compensation amounting to £750. It is all one-sided. If the em­ployee had to pay a small proportion nf his wages towards his insurance, I would not object, but the employe,r has not only to pay the wholel of the premium--

Mr: SLATER.-Do you recollect the time when the employe,r had no liability at all, and when thel employee was killed tha,t was the end of it ~ His dependants re-ceived no compensation. .

Mr. ALLAN.-A settler on a, 20-acre block re~ce.jve,s no compensation in thel event of his being injured if' he has not insured himself. The government are picking out a class and giving to that class something that cannot be given to' the rest of the, people. I am not in favour o.f making a concession to a class in that way. Anyhow, I do not think it is a sound principle to give any employee the whole of these benefits when he does not contributE, a penny himself.

Mr. Co.TTER.-How do you give him the whole of the benefits ~ If he dies, the money goes to the widow.

Mr. ALLAN .-A worker may lose an arm.

Mr. COTTER.-You have not read the Bill.

]\IIr. ALLAN.-I have read enough o£ the Bill to know that it' doos not suit me. An honorable ID€tU1ber Sllggests that itafIects my pocket, but as I have to em- . ploy a certain aJJ10unt of labour, I n.a.tu'­rally know that I have to, insure. It is those who. employ labour very occasion­ally who are placed at such a disadvantage. A man may be sent o:ut into the country with a harv-ester, and: as a. result of pur:e carelessness on his part a.n accident may occur. Suppose the har­vestoer is worth £200, and through the driver losing control of his horses there U! a smash. Who would have the liability ~ In addition to £200 for his machine the whole of the liability under the Act would have to' be m'et by the employer, although the accident may have been entirely due to laxit.y on the part of the driver. If the employee dBes not happen to he insured, the employer is liable to pay compensation up t() £150. I have no. hesitation in say­ing that the proposal d:oos not meet with my approval.

l\1r. TUNNECLIFFE.-The hono'rable member has quite misapprehendoed the object of the Bill

Mr. ALLAN.-It is set out in clause 3. Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-In case of the total

incapacity of the worker through the loss of both hands, or something {If thlt,t kin.a., the payment is £600, the same as at pre­sent. If, however, there are children he will receive an additional sum Of 5s. for each child up to the number of ~;ix chil­dren, but the total amouut that he can receive under the clause is £750.

Mr. ALLAN.-That is just what I was saying.

.Mr. WETTENHALL.-With r-egard tQ the general principle of workers' CDm­pensation, I may say that I am quite in accord with it, but I think that common sense, as well as experience must convince honorable members that the amendments proposed in this Bill ;must involve, among other things, an increase in the rates of premiums. In New South Wales, when. the weekly payment during incapacity was raised from £2 to £3, an~ the compensa,tion for death from £500 to £750, the rates were increased bY' 33 per cent. We aTe'told, however, that similar increases in compensation could. be made here without raising' the ra-tes.

520 lVorkers' [ ASSEMBLY. ] Compensation Bill.

In his second-reading speech the Chief Secretary stated that the profits on workers' co-mpensation insurance were so large that the, pro-posed increases could be borne without any trouble ~ I have made inquiries into the matter, and I find, on the contrary, that if there is increased

. liability "there must undoubtedly be hlgh€r rates. That should be clearly understood. I could not accept the Minister's state­ment, because it seemed impossible that such should be the position. Therefore, I made exhaustive inquiries. I discovered that when weekly compensation was in­creased from 30s. to 40s., and the amount at death from £400 to £600, no increase in the rates was made. That was accepted and given a trial. Experience based on actuarial examination has definitely shown that the rattls should be increased to meet the business. In Queensland, while a very large volume of this insurance is done by the Government and the expenses are very low, as the sup€,rvision is light and no canvassing is required, I understand that there was a small profit up to' 1922-3, but in that year a loss was shown. In Queens­land the Government balances things with its general insurance. Taking the wD'rke,rs' compensation side of the insurance we can expect and must have an increase in rates, whether the insurance is done with the Government or anybody else.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-I would remind the honorable member that the rates which we a.re~ prD'posing are now being paid in Queensland, and have been paid for many years past.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-And in 1922-3 there was a loss in that State as far as workers' compensation insurance is con­cerned. Can the honorable gentleman refute that'

·Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-You are quoting from a sD'mewhat unreliable authority.

Mr. WETTENRALL.-I am not in the habit of dD'ing that. I have taken great care to be sure on the point. At any rate, the Chief Secretary is not game to refute what I said. I have pointed out that New South Wales did increase the rates by 33 per cent. Common sense tells us that unless the profits were ex­traD'rdinary, no business could stand an increase of the weekly payment fro_ill £2 to £3 lOs., without raising the rates. There is another aspect of this matter. I refer to the removal from the Act of the agreement in regard to aged and infirm workers. We we-re tD'ld that this WD'uid

not involve any increased rates. But let us analyse the position. It is undeni­able, and experience has shown in the case of aged and infirm workers that they are more liable to accidents, that the accidents are more serious, and that the time of recovery is longer-all vital considera­tions in connexion with the matter. Under the Act an agreement can be made with regard to aged or infirm workers and their insurance. If this Bill is carried the aged or infirm worker will be placed on the same footing as a young and virile man. It is preposterous to say that that can be done without in­creasing the rates.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-It puts them in exactly the same position as we put the returned soldiers, and that did not in­crease the rates.

lVIr. WETTENHALL.-That is a dif­ferent matter. We do not want to bring the returned soldiers into the picture. The inRurance in regard to them no man would complain of.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-We only refer to them as infirm workers. Thousands of re­turned soldiers are infirm wD'rkers, because they have been injured in various ways.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-They are given certain jobs. They do not take D'n aU sorts of work as thel a-verage infinn worker would have to do. It is useless for the honorable gentleman to say that the risk with the aged and infirm worker is not greate-r than with the man of aver­age health.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-All I say is that no company or private concern has in­creased the premiums fnr infirm soldiers who are now engaged in industries.

Mr. WETT'ENHALL.-I do nD't deny ili~. •

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-If the risk is greater,· the premium demanded is not higher.

Mr. WETTENHALL. - There are special circumstances in cnnnexion with returned soldiers. I am dealing with the community as a whole, and it is no use the hD'norable gentleman trying to draw a red herring acrcss the trail. There is no dou bt that this proposal will increase the liabilitv. and the premiums must be pro­portionately incre-ased. PeD'ple are not in the insurance business as philanthropists, nor is the State. The State office could not afford to do business unless the pre­miums were adequate. There is another aspect of this matter I desire to re,fer to.

Workers' [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] CO'lnpensation Bill. 521

The compensation seems to be rather on a liberal scale. If a man becomes disabled he is entitled to adequate compensation during his illness, but th~re is this possi­bility to be consde,red: ]f we make the compensation to.o high there will not be .the tendency for the man to reCGver as rapidly as he might do in other circum­stances. I am nGt putting that forward merely as my own vie,w, but as the opinion O'f a reliable authority. If a man is draw­ing, by way of compensation ~n.d sick benefit funds, within a few shIllmgs of what he would earn at his trade, the ten­dency is to remain sick. This, Gf course, means adding to the amount of compen­sation which would be paid, and it follows that the premiums must be increased. I speak subject to correction on this point, but does nGt this Bill me,an that the rate Gf compensaion would be equal to £3 lOs. pe,r week 1

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-That is hardly a fair statement of the position. If a man is permanently injured and has children, he will receive, in addition to £2 per week, a sum of 5s. per week for each child until the total payment Gf £750 has been reached. It does not necessarily follow that every claimant will get £3 lOs. per week That total will be reached in only a small number of case,s.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-That has no­thing to do with the compensation payable at death as the result of accident.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-The amount pay­able at death is not alte,red, but remams at £600.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-But the weekly payment may be £3 lOs.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-The payment will be £2, and then 5s. fGr every child up to six in the family. That will bring the amount up to £3 lOs., but it is only in rare cases that that total will be reached.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-I am in accGrd with the proposal that a man with children dependent upon him should get additional compensation, and the Minis­ter's statement has largely removed my objection in regard to the payment of £3 lOs. per week. It must be obvious that if we are going to make the compen­sation paymeut re,ach within a few shil­lings of a man's Q1rdinary earnings, the amount payable fo·r compensation will be greatly increased. I do not see any neces­si ty for removing the power to make agreements with aged and infirm workers. If the House accepts the proposals in this

Bill, it will be responsible for what is sure to fcHow-an incre,ase in the pre­miums.

:MajGr BAIRD.-So far a~ I can gather from my perusal of the Blll, there are two features in it which deserve close at­tention from hGno'rable members. There is no dGubt the WGrkers' Compensation Act put on industry the bur~en of sup­porting a worker who meets WIth an acCl­dent in the course of his employment. The industry pays him only a part.ial wage, but to that extent the 'pa:yment of compensation is a burden en Industry. This Bill will greatly increase the number of workers who can come under the WGrkers' Compensation Act. Before 1922 only manual workers receiving less than £250 a year could come under the Act. In 1922 we increased the a.mount to £350, and it is now proposed to advance it to £520 which is £10 a week. No manual worker receiving over £10 a wee:k wil~ be able to enjoy the benefits of thIS legIsla­tion. It will be seeu from the figures. I have quoted that the amount proposed In the Bill is practically double the rate of a manual worke,r's pay fixed in 1922.

l\1r. TUNNECLIFFE.-Wages ha:ve con­siderably mo;re than doubled dunng that interval, but only the same class ~f worke,rs are expected to CGme under thls new proposal.

Major BAIRD.-Sure'ly the honorable gentleman will not say th~t a man who was getting £250 a year m 1922 would now be getting £520 1

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-WhE-n the original Act was passed 30s. a week was considered half the wages. The rate Gf £250 was considered to be high, but since then wages have more than doubled.

MajGr BAIRD.-I am n~t d.eaIing with the proportion of wages paId Just now. .

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-We do not expect to widen the field by this increase. The same peGple will be concerned, but they are getting higher wages.

Major BAIRD.-I think the House had better understand that we will be greatly widening the area of wor~ers who will be able to come under thIS Act. There cannot be any doubt about that.

}\IIr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Farm labourers were then getting £1; now they are get­ting £3 and £3 lOs. a week. Other wo~kers who were receiving £3 and £3 lOs. are now receiving £5, £6, and £7 a week.

522 lVoJlkers' [ASSEMBLY.] 001nplm8o,tion Bill.

Major B,AIRD .-We can take it -for g'l'fuUte-d that with the limit at £3.50 ;all farm workers were brought under the Aot. N ow we will be br.i.ngiD.g in also a num­·ber of ·tradesmen who could not come in with the .limit .of .£.350 ..

Mr. TUN'NlE:C'LIFF£.-The oniginal aim of this legisla.tion was ,to Ibring eViety worker under t.he Act, but to.,:alay ouly a re1a­tiv:ely smaJl1?Torportrcl]1 :oam naVie the bene­lit of -this legislation.

Major BAIRD.-We .~'ha.n bring practi­oally all manual 'Workf)rs under this Bill, I Sh0iU1el say. It will considerably in­crease the burden on industry, looking at this one aspect a:lone. The employers will have 'to' pay a 'great deal to the insur­ance office for the insuranee of thcir work­men.

Mr. WARDE.-But is it not a just thing that tha,t sho,tild be doue ~

Major BAIRD;-I was nO't arguiug from the .abstract point of view of justice just then. I was pOQnting to what would be the actual effect. Mr~ WARDE.-YoU 'are probably right

in your deduction. But if it is a, right thing to do we should go ahead and do it.

Major BAIRD.~I do feel that a. ;man who receives £500 ,a year should be: able .to provide fo,r all contingencies. I admit that a man receiving a wage tha.t is close to the bread .alld butter linel should have the benefit of workers' compensation. When a. man is getting a, sala.ry 0.£ £500 a year and over, :Qe .is surely able to pro­-vide for all the ordinary cQlnt,ingencies 0f life out of his own ea,rnings.

Mr. T'uNNEcLIFFE.-----Governments have not followed that rule in cOlllneocion with the Railway Department.

Major BAIRD.-WhatGoverument do you refer to 1

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-The Government of which yOU were a member.

Majo,r BAIRD .-1 dOl not see the appli­catio'll.

Mr. W ARDE.-Why, your Government increased the pensions of men who were earning £1,250 a year.

Majo,r BAIRD.-Of course, the pedect way would be too pay Elvery man sufficiently well to enable. him too provide for an the ordinary contingencies of .life out of his savings.

Mr. WARDE.-Why, when you were, a Minister, sitting at the table, you d'c:'.­fended an increase 0.£ pension rate! to men gt.tting £1,250 a year.

Major BAIRD .-At any . rate the. iHOOlse should ccmsidel' ,the question whether a. ma.n earning £500 a year js -not ,in a .posi tion to -provide for all these contingencies himself. Tlbere .are ·a uum­'ber 'OJ ,incrtlases that :rn:ust involve Ii. greater Ibmrden. 'ChddTen a,re brought ·ill, and that will probahly mea"Il a, big in­crease. :H will be very difficult .to esti­mate the number of childl'en a.n employee ma;y have by the timEt he meets with an accident.

Mr. JACKsoN.~This may bring in the question of :bir.th control.

Major BAIR-D.-Any way, it will have tG> he a generous insurance if .it is to' coverall possihilities. An ,irns,uIlance oom­pat1ly must knaowexact,ly wh~t :the extent of its responsibi1ity will be when it in­~mr~s. There are .at leraBtp.ossibihties in the Bill Oof increasing the insuranoe rate considerably. I am not 'at all sure that. the p.roposed amendment of the Act is a safe ,Oille. .Of course, some considera.tion should be" given where d0a,th occurs. I notice that the, amount is limit.ed to £600, excepting where there are children. The amount then becomes £750. Tha,t, of course, meallS that considerably higher premiums will have to be .paid. The difficulty is in estimating just what the ,liability 0'£ a company will be when the accident that is insured aga,inst happens. Then there i3 the case of the infirm WOiT kffi" . It has often 'been debated in this House, and pro.bably in anOother placer, too, whether this infirm wo.rker's clause should not be deleted altogethe,r. The GOovernment aTe not doing that. But it may weH happen that the infirm worl~er will have' tOI take lower compensation than he would other­wise be entitled tOo. The wa:rker himself may be done a great inj~y. He may be pre,vented from getting woik at all. Of course, if tbere is a. Bholl'tage of tradesmen in his particular class, nc' may not be affected at all.

• Mr. TUNNECLIFFE. - The honorable

member knows quite well that it is not the individual worker who is insured. It is the wa.ge-sheet 0.£ the industry that is in­sured. The company is not a.wa,re whE.Jtber the workers a,re old -qr young.

Major HAIRD.-But there ,are men whO', thTOUgh infirmity, or wea,kness, or old age, are mo['e liable to a.ccidents in the modern factory tban arel 'workers who are young 'and vig(}rou8.

Workers' [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Compensation Bill. 523

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-The same premium rat.e js charged for them ,as for other workers.

Mr. OAIN.-And employers would not pa y these men wages if they welfe nQit do­ing the work.

Major BAIRD.-They will have to pay a higher rate. We cannot deny that the. infiITn worker is more liable to accident than the strong, ke,en-sighted, keen­sensed yOoung fellOow, when working the oHen difficult and dangerous muchin,~s used in up-to-date factories.

1\1r. TUNNECLIFFE.-Ho'W do, you get away from the fact that the premiums a.n~ not increased ~ The, insurance companies accepted the whOole 0.£ the returned sol­diers with whatever disabilities they might be labouring under.

MajOor BAIRD.-Those companies, I un derst-and, make a, great deal of money. They probably acted very generously to­wards so'ldiers.

lVIr. BROWNBILL.-According tOo the honorable member for LQiwan they do 'nOot makCl much money.

Major BAIRD.-I am not a shareholder in any such company. so I cannOot speak from personal knowledge. But I do think they would be more' generous to' soldiers than to civilians,

Mr. BROWNBILL.-Does not the young man take more risks than the E'lderly worker takes ~

l\lajo,r BAIRD.-He ma}T. If he loses his life in, his eady days he misses mo're. However, I feel sure that the premiums against those men will be increased, and it may be made more difficult for them 1.0 get work at all.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.---.,.-It will not increase the premium against the individual; jt m<;l.y increase the general premium.

Major BAIRD.-The effect would be the same against the employer. But what a.bout the qUEstion of an infirm worker being prevented from obtaining employ­ment ~ The employe'r may prefer the strong vigorous worker. I feel sympathy with what the l\1inister isattEllllpting to do, but I do frel that we must be careful not to' do an injury to the workman who is least able to heal" it.

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-At present, if an aged man is injured, he g-ets about £1 a week, and that, is not sufficient tQi main­tain him. He now gets the C'C kicking."

Major BAIRD.-The danger I see is that these men may be prevented from getting' work. '

~[r. GROvEs.-Oan the Minister give us an assurance that there will 'be no increaseu cost to the employer ~

}Ir. TUNNECLIFFE.-N o. All I can say is that there will be no increase as far as the afflicted men ar.e concerned.

Mr. GRovEs.-They are not all aged men. Many young men returned from the war incapacitated.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-About 60,000 men returned from the war physically unnt. Of couree a great many of them have been absorbed in industries.

Major BAIRD.-The Chief Secretary is giving the figures for Australia, not fQir Victoria. So far as I can gather the two most important pomts in the Bill have reference to the a.rea covered SOl far as employees are concerned and the innrm workers, and I think that the' House should conside,r the Bill ve,ry carefully before passing it. I am. nnt inclined to SUpport the second readmg.

Mr. SNOWBALL.-With other speakers I may 'say that I have ,always been an enthusiastic supporter of this beneficent legislation - the Workers' Oompensation Acts which we have put on our statute-book-and I am in favour of increa:sing the field covered by the system. I would, however, respectfully submit to the House, that when we are going to extend to the £10 a week wage­earner ,the benefits ',0£ this compulsory insuranc.e, j t would not be wise to ask the employer to pay the premiums. To relieve the worker earning up to £350 a year we have allowed the burden to' rest on the employer, but if we extend the protection to the £ lOa week wage-e,arning class, I cannot but feel tha.t these m~n should be asked to make provision for this insurance for themselves and theilT dependants. No one can say that it would be unreasonable to require a person earn­ing such a wage to make the small con .. tribution required to 'secure for him this protection.

Mr. ALLAN.-The employer mjght be required to pay one-half the premium and the per'S0h insured the balance. '

Mr. SNOWBliLL.-Persons earning over £350 a year are in ,u position to con­tribute to the fund. r would not thilik of asking the bread and butter wage-earner to provide at all for this protection. I have always been in favour of the in­dustry itself carrying the burden. I am

524 Workers' [ASSEMBLY.] Compensation Bill.

in favour ,of extending the area covered Mr. SNOWBALL.----ManYltradesmen by the Act, 'but I 'ask the Government are receiving mqre than is paid to a mem­to consider whether it would not be fair ber of this Parliament, but the payment to ask those who are to receive under this we get is to recoup expenses. The Go­Bill a benefit to which they 'are not at vernment should seriously reconsider this present entitled, to bear the burden 'of matter. Both sides of the House are the protection being afforded to them. anxious to extend this wonderfully bene-

Mr. TouTcHER.-Do you mean that . D.cent kind of legislation, but do not let they should pay the premiums? us carry it beyond a reasonable limit.

Mr. SNOWBALL.-Yes. The pre- With regard to the rates payable in future miums are not high. in respect of this more generous system

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-The difficulty of insurance, the Chief Secretary must would be in the collection, ,and it would have been startled when he was told by mean a radie-al alteration of the whole someone that the rates would not be in­scheme. creased. I have made inquiries on the

Mr. SNOWBALL.-I have no doubt subject, and every insurance man has that in many cases an employer would said, "Certainly the rates will be in­say of a man, "He is a gO,od worker, and creased." The rates are presumably fixed I am going to pay." on an actuarial basis. We know from

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Wben the original the reports of various companies tha;t in Bill was before the House it was the connexion with industrial insurance the aspect of the case to which I have referred, profits made are not large. Many of the that led the House to reject the contri- companies are not earning sufficient out butory system. of industrial insurance policies to covel'

Mr. SNOWBALL.-It was not that the cost. alone; it was also the feeling that the in- Mr. W ARDE.-That is because of the dustry should provide for the protection State entering into the business. of the worker earning the bread and Mr. SNOWBALL.-That may be so. butter wage provided for by a Wages The profits now being made are small. Board determination. I do not think there is any unreasonable

Mr. OArN.-The honorable member will imposition on the part of the companies. recognize that the number of men injured Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-Give the State who are receiving wages on this higher control and there will be an immediate basis would be comparatively small. reduction of 20 per cent. in the rates.

Mr. SNOWBALL.-There may be em- Mr. SNOWBALL.-That has not been ployers who have in their service a con- the experience in Queensland, nor in New siderable number of men receiving the Zealand. The practice in those countries higher rate 'Of pay, and it would be mani- is for representatives of the State in sur­festly unreasonable for them to be called ance offices to meet representatives of upon to insure all of these employees out the companies, and they agree upon a of their own pockets in respect of the tariff. risks of the industries in which they are ]vII'. Ar,LAN.-They all get in the bag. engaged. Mr. -SNOWBALL.-They are all

~fr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-The honorable affected by the same desire to make money member is well enough informed to know out of the business. that the aim of all legislation of this Mr. WARDE.-How is it that wherever class is to place the burden Oil the in- Governments have opened insurance dustry. offices the premiums in respect of fire

Mr. SNOWBALL.-Yes, but when 'we insurance and workers' compensation come to £10 a week weare travelling into have been reduced all round? That a field of protection which we are hardly does not show that there is a conspiracy. called upon to enter. Anyone who is Mr. SNOWBALL.-I did not say there earning that fairly generous salary should was any conspiracy. be expected to contribute the small sum Mr. WARDE.-What else did you mean required to protect himself against the by a meeting and an agreement? risks of the industry. Mr. SNOWBALL.-If the honorable

Mr. MORLEY.-He would be receiving member thinks every agreement denotes more than a member of Parliament. a conspiracy, I am sorry for him.

·orkers· [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Oompensation Bill. 525

We know that in New Zealand and in Queensland it is the practice for repre­sentatives of thE' State insurance offices and representatives of the companies to meet together and fix a common tariff. There is not that keen competition be­tween them that honorable members on the Ministerial side suggest .will always exist.

Mr. WARDE.-There has been, though. Mr. SNOWBALL.-I believe in re­

taining our State .A.ccident Insurance Office" because it has a saluta,ry effect. It steadies rates. At the same time, we are anxious to protect those who are carrying on this busi­ness at reasonable rates and. not ex­ploiting the public. I know honorable members on the Ministerial side of the House will say that companies doing this business are entitled to consideration, and

. t.hat the rates should not be cut by a State office that has to pay no overhead ex­penses. In my opinion it is preposterous to say that the rates are not going to be increased.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-If the State office were allowed to do general insurance as well as workers' compensation insurance, the rates would ,be still further reduced. All the profitable business is done by the companies in connexion with a class of insurance tha t the State office is not allowed to deal with.

Mr. SNOWRALL.-The State Insur­ance Office is doing pretty well. I am sure it has served a good purpose. I am not complaining of its existence, nor of its having a fair share of the insurance business. It would be interesting to have a definite report from the State Insurance Office as to what effect this pro­posed legislation would have on existing rates. I think' the House should have had such a report presented to it. It is not fair to ask honorable mem­bers to approve of or dissent from this proposition without their know­ing ,vhat effect it is going to have on insurance rates, and I think the Chief Secretary will appreciate the fact that he should have supplied honor­able members with that information. They will not be inclined to allow the Bill to pass without having it. It would be manifestly wrong of them to do so, and I would ask the Ohief Secretary' to defer the consideration of the measure in

Oommittee-in fact, possibly to withhold further progress with it-until honorable members receive the information neces­sary to enable them to criticize it. U n­doubtedly increased rates will have to be paid on ~ account of the more generous provision that is made by the Bill. I now wish to refer to the provision in re­spect to aged and infirm workers. I fear that the effect of striking out agree­ments between employers and aged and infirm workers will very probably prevent the latter 'from getting employment at all. I feel that that will be the in­evitable result of the provision in the Bill, and I ask honorable members to hesitate about ,accepting it for that reason. Oan anyone conceive the pathetic posi­tion of a man who has to earn his living by his daily efforts, and who has come to that age and that condition of in­firmity when he has to be turned aside because of the extra risk the employer would run in giving him the means of earning his livelihood and of supporting his children ? We should hesitate about rmnoving the wise PI;Ovision ,that was made in our previous legislation for deal­ing with the difficult position in which such men are placed. Do not say to them, "Go and get an old-age pension." At present they can get employment. We know that the rates :fixed by the insur­ance companies are :fixed in the contem-

. plation of the regular use by employers of agreements with aged and infirm workers. Such agreements are insisted on by companies. Employers have to disclose them in connexion with their applications for insurance. Do not let us wipe out the provision that has been made deliberately and wisely for the pur­pose of helping these people who find it difficult to get employrrnent. I think it would be a callous thing to do. When we made provision for such workers in the past it was not done without due C01.l­

sideration and without all honorable members on both sides of the House feel­ing that provision should be made for this class of men. There is not a member who has not come in contact with men whr) win 1a turned aside because they are agp.d or infirm.

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-There is no such provision in ,the Queensland Act as there is in ours, and there the difficulty the honorable member is contemplating hn~ not ansen.

526 orkers' [ASSEMBLY.] Oompensaiion Bill.

'Mr. SNOWR .. ti.L.-I have IWT. been in Queensland. Probably in that State a worker realizes than when he gets to a certain age there will be nothing before him' but the old-age pension-nothing but the poor-house. But we want our workers in this State to feel that there is provision whereby they will be enabled to earn something more than may be pro­'7id~d for them in the way of an old-age pension. The fact that the Chief Secre­tary has stated that there is no prO'­vision for such men in the Queensland .Act does not help the position at all. Let him go about and come in contact with men of this kind, who are at present able to get employment here, while aged and in:firm workers in Queensland per­haps do not hope to receive anything ex­cept the provision to which I have re­ferred. We hear a great deal about Queensland, but I do not think it helps us in any way.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-I think the hon­orable member will admit that there has been a tendency in Queensland to intro­duce legislation in the interests of the poorer classes, and that if there had been any agitation for legislation on the lines he suggests it would probably have been introduced. ,

Mr. HOGAN.-Also in Queensland out of every £1 paid in premi ums 17 s. is re­turned to the workers.

Mr. SNOWBALL.-I think some of the figures that have been given in regard to the amounts returned to the workers have been shown not to be quite reliable.

Mr. HUGHEs.-Especially from your (the Opposition) side of th<; House.

Mr. SNOWBALL.-That is a cheap sort of interjection that does not help at all. This side of the House is quite as able to present honest and reliable facts jn argument as the other side. I t is time we dropped this kind of thing. It does not help a bit. It is beneath the dignity of honorable members to resort to this kind of stuff. It usually comes from n~w members who are not familiar with the traditions we have tried to live up to. Generally speaking, I will always support legislation of this kind and help to ex­tend it, but I ask the House to hesitate about going to the extent this Bill does without in fairness asking those who will benefit by the more generous pro-

vision that is being made to contribut.e towards the extra cost that will inevitably fall upon those who have to pay for the cover that must be provided.

1\1r. GROVES.-In my opinion, the House is entitled to a little mQiI'e infor­mation than has been given up to the present.

:Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-I shall be only too pleased to give any information I can.

}\tlr. GROVES.-The question of the cost to the employer is one which vitally concerns the passage of the Bill. From time to time calls are made on employers in this connexion, and I hope that the Minister will be able to tell the House the amount of money invO'lved through the extra liabHity which will be placed 0'1 them under this Bill. It would be interesting also if the Minister could /Supply information as to the number of 'additional workers who will be brought . \Under its opera,ticm. That would give some idea of its scope. Personally, I think tha.t the Bill is a fair and just one. Some honorable members on this (the Opposition) side of the House have com­plained about the position in regard to infirm workers., However, I have had a. long expe.rience in the employment of labour, and I a.m not worrying much a bon t men of that class.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-T'hey are usually very careful.

Mr. GROVES.-They are. Generally speaking, a,n employer does not give an aged or infirm worker the responsibility of handling machinery of any description. Proba,bly such a worker has been in his service foir a number o.f years, and the employe[" feels a certain sense of duty tClwa,rds him, and gives him work which he can dO' in a reasonable way. In this Bill wei should not do anything whioh will take from an aged Q1r infirm worker his OpPo1'tunity of getting employment. If a young man loses his employment he can find work elsewhere, but an aged man 'who has lived in a certain district for a number of years, and formed many ties, is prevented from going a;way to other parts in se,arch of empl01ment.. I do not. think the 1\1inister would do anything that would deprive an aged or infirm wO'rker of the oppo,rtunity 0'£ getting employ­ment. Personally, I regard the proposed increase in clausel 2 from £350 t.o £520 as too, great. I agree with ot.her members

Tforkers' [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Gomp(/))'/]sabion Bill. 527

that, if workeTs are getting £350 or £400, they should be in a position to' pro,vide their olwn insurance. . However, that is a ma..tter which wei can deal with 1n Committee. It seems to me that the proposal goes a little too far. The bulk or the workers outside may begetting paid at, the rate 00 £10 a week, but it haE. also, tOo be remembered that, owing to' intermittent employment and time lOEt through the weather and other condi­tions, they a,re not continuoil.'lsly at work.

Mr. 'VARDE.-How many are averag­ing £10 a week? Out of every 1,000 you could COfUll t them ou the fingerrs ·of· your hand.

M~r. GROVE8.-1 would llo,t go us far H8 that.

Mr. T'UNNECLIFFE.-As a matter olf fa.ct, we axe proposing an amendment in tha,t provisiOon, because they have dis­oovered in Que.ensland that so few ·are oa.rning £10 a week.

Mr. GROVES.-That. is wha.t I was pointing out. There area number .o.f men who axe earning £1 lOs., £1 1551., and up to £2 a. day, but at the end .00f the year ilieir aggregate eanlings dOt not reach £520. All the same, I think £520 is too high, and .au amendment in COIJll­mittee to reduce that .amount will meet with general a,pproval. In my opinion, the main principles of the' Bill are right. With regard to the limitation o·f the number of children in resped of whorrll allowance is made, I realize that a point which I raised by interjection is really ocvered when the age set out in the Bill is taken into comnde,ra.tion. The Leader 0.1 t.he Opposition has just suggested tha.t we might pass the second reading of the Bnl now, a,nd, after dealing with clause 1, repott progress, so that members can be supplied with the information which they want, and a.lso be able tOo oirculate amendments.

Mr. POLLARD.-I desire to support this Bill very strongly. I fee i} tha.t it is 'a measure that is urgently required. It is a. principle which is generally accepted .by members in all parts 0.£ thel House that an industry should bea,r the burden 01 wastage and accidents. The chieJ objection of members on the Opposition side is to the proposal to' increase .the rcmunelratio'll of a ct worker" as defined in the Act from £350 tOo £520. They e<'ntend that a man who is earning £500 or more a, ye'alI" is well able too afford his

own insurance. That may be so. If, however, they admit tha.t the industry should bear the burden of compensation in the case of the death or disablement of a worker ill receipt, of £350, surely to goodness they must admit that the prin­ciple sho.uld ap-ply when the viTorker is getting £520. A man is only paid that amount ·because· the wmk which he is putting into a. business is worth it. That is a logical argument that no honorable member can contest.

Mr. T'ouTCHER.-Suppose he was get­ting £1,500 ~

1\11'. POLLARD.-The principle wOllld still hold good. Members of the Opposi­tion have agreed that an industry should bear the cost of compensa,tiOon for acci­dents. and, 'il that is good enough ill the case of a man '\vith a 'smail income, it should surely also .apply where a man is receiving high wages because of the la,rger return which he is making. The honorable member fOor Rodney seems to be chiefly concerned with the small settler, the man who is battling along on a .block .of his own, and who, he says, is not prolvided for while the farm labourer is. The honorable member overlooks the fact that a man battling along on a block of his own always has an opportunity 0f making a rise in life by speculation or as a. res1.11t of good seasons.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-.Are you on the land ~ :Mr. POLLARD.-Yee. More so than

the hO!llorable member. Probably I ca.n ,show mo,re corns on my hands tha,n he can. The honorable member for Rodney put U'p that argument, but a man work­ing for wages on a farm has no outlook on lifE' apart from what he receives week by week. He has no opportunity of making a rise in a good season nor from an increase in land values, nor, indeed, in any other way that a Dian who owns land can look forward to. I am not going to say that the small settler is always hetter off than the wage earner, but still the man who owns land has opportunities which the wage earner cannot possibly expect to have. Stu~ely it is contemptible for any man owning a farm to object to pay a miserable £2 per year as an in­surance for the widow of an employee who meet·s his death as the result of accident. I can insure a casual labour-er for £2 per year, and I do not begrudge

528 Workers' [ASSEMBLY.] Compensation B'ill.

that amount. The honorable member for Rodney pointed out that in other indus­tries the amount of the insurance is based upon the wage sheet. I think the same principle prevails in regard to men em~ ployed on farms. The honorable mem­ber for Brighton objects to the proposal in the Bill regarding aged and infirm workers. We all know that no one em­ploys a man in an industry unless he can m~e a profit out of him, but he is not going to refuse to employ an aged and infirm worker because he has to pay an insurance premium of £2 or £3 per year. That amount would not wipe out the advantage to an employer of the present arrangement regarding aged and infirm workers. Therefore that argument falls to the ground. There has been some de­bate on the question whether the present rate of premium will be sufficient to pay 11he compensation that may be necessary under the incre~sed amounts stated in this Bill. But even if employers were called upon to pay 25 per cent. more in rates than they do now, that would not warrant us in rejecting this Bill. I re­gard the provrsions 3JS reasonable, and I hope the Bill will pas's into law.

Mr. BROWNBILL. - When Major Baird was speaking, I could not help re­calling the ti.me when he introduced a previous amendment to the Workers' Compensation Act. He was then instru­mental in rajsing the compensation from £500 to ,£600, and the limitation in re­gard to the workers' earnings from £250 to £350. His attitude then was very different from what it wa~ this afternoon. The majority of members of this House are quite prepared to admit that the Workers' Oompensation A.~t is a piece of legislation to be commended. It has been of great benefit to the workers, though I thin k Victoria was the last in the Commonwealth to adopt this kind of legislation. I know of many instances in my own electorate where the payment of compensation on the accidental death of a worker has been of great benefit to the widow, and has enabled her to bring np her children more or less comfortably. The increase in the amount from £500 to £600 was a still further benefit to those who had been deprived of the wage­earner. A man receiving £350 at the present time would be jm;t as likely to

•

get injured if his earnings were consider­ably more than that, and I think it is reasonable to increase the amount to £520. Clause 3 provides that where a man has been totally incapacitated and has a number of children, he may re­ceive 5s. per week for each of his child­ren up to 'six in number. That is an exceptionally wise provision to make, and it ought to be unanimously agreed to. It would mean that a man in such circum­stances would receive £3 lOs. per week, and that would be a very great benefit to him and to his family. A lot has been said in regard to aged and infirm workers. I quite agree with what the Chief Secretary has said, and I do not think that there will be any increase in the premium rate. Aged and infirm workers are not prepared even to take the same amount of risk as men who are not so disabled. Men who have been working in indl1stries for a number of years generally become pretty cautious, and are not willing to incur any risk at all. The State Insurance Office has been carrying on business for a number of years, and the annual reports we receive from it 'show that it is making a profit. Mr. Holmes and his staff are very efHcient, and do their work well. At any 6me that we want information we are l'eadily ,supplied with it. It is also well known that the office is prompt in meet­ing claims for compensation, and it always gives to claimants a square deal. r hope the time is not far distant when we will increase the operations of this office so that it will be able to take on other branches of insurance. If that were allowed it would be the means of reducing premiums· in other respects. We find, taking the past eight or nine years into consideration, that 40 per cent. of the premiums met all com­pensation claims i.n connexion with risks ether than life. The cost of manage­ment was met by 33 per cent., and 27 per cent. went to profits. We know that the profits made by insurance companies are enormous. Taking the last 30 years, it is safe to say that 30 per cent. of the income has sufficed to pay all claims. Therefore, I hope that our State Insurance Office will be allo,wed to extend its operations. This is a matter that the Goyernment should give earnest con·

II'vrkers' [2-:1: SEl'TE:\1BER, 192-:1:.J Oompensation Bill. 529

sideration to. The municipal council of which I am a member has established a fire insurance fund to cover its own property risks. . The amount that was paid in when the fund was started was £200. Many people in the city were strongly opposed to the innovation .. There were many strong commen ts; especially by persons interested in fire insurance companies. In 1922 tlw amount ,vas increased from £200 to £250. To-day the fund is in credit to the extent of £2,052 3s. 10d. As the amount increases the fund will be ex­tended to cover other risks. In the long run the council will undertake the w holt of its insurance. Last year we received £100 interest on the amount outstanding in the fund. In five years' time we may not have to pay anything at all.

~{r. J.~LLAK.-YOU have not had a fire yet.

1fr. BROWNBILL.-There has been ])0 fire, but we have shown very clearly that municipal insurance is a good thing. If we were to extend the operations or our State Insurance Office we could re­duce fire jnsurance premiums, and gene­rally bring about most satisfactory re­sults.

lVIr. PRI£NDI£lWAST. - If they were allowed to carryon industrial insurance and providential insurance they would make tons of money. The premiums would drop to half the amount. .

Mr. BROWNBILL.-I hope the G.)­·vernment will endeavour to have the operations of .the State insurance offiee extended. I support this proposed amendment of the Workers' Compensa­tion Act. There are a number of mat.­ters that could be included in it that are llOt; but it was felt desirable not to overload the Bill. We believe that this ·measure ,,,ill be of gi'eat benefit to th'J workers. The House 'will do well to let it go through. In Committee the 'measure may be amended if it is thought llecessary or advisable. As regards tho general principle of workers' compensa­tion, I and my colleagues will support .i, to the uttermost.

1'.fr. ANGUS.-I thought that this was a Workers' Compensation Bill. To my mind it is a capitalists' compensation measure.

)fr. POLLARD.-Do you mean that the man in receipt of a salary .of .;£500 is not n worker?

[28]

Mr. ANGUS.-N ot 7 per cent. of our farmers are making £7 a week clear. Certainly the da.iry farmer cannot make that much. If we were providing a general insurance scheme for the whole of the people by which provision would be made against old age, and which would take the place of old-age pensions, it would be all right. Bnt it is not all right to pass class legislation in the in­terests of men who are earning £10 a ,ycek. I do not regard that as legisla­tion for the worker at all. The worker, to my m,ind, is the man who is earning £7 a week or less. W e~lthier people should not be provided for at all. The man who is earning £10 a week can make ample provision for himself. Why is it not proposed to compensate for accident the worker who is earning £2,000 a yea!.'? It is all a matter of degree. The workers' compensation fund was introduced, and very properly so, for the protection of ill-paid workers. It is going altogether too far to. extend the privileges to mell in I'eceipt of £500 a year. I shall cast my vote against the Bill.

lVIr. lVlcADA}'.J.-I support the Bill. . I do not agree with the honorable mem­

ber for Gunbovver and those of his way ')I thinking regarding the restrictions of workers' compensation benefits simply to ill-paid workers. Men who are earning £10 a week, or in the vicinity of thn t amount, have to take serious risks in their avocations. They are just as liable t,)

serious accident as are workers who al'e paid only £4 or £5 a week. In COl1lm01I justice they should receive compensation when they meet with an accident in just the same way as the lower-paid worker does. A lot has been said about the in­creased burden on industry which will be the effect of the passing of this Bill. I know of one industrial concern employ­ing 100 workers, only five or six of whom at the outside are in receipt of a wage anywhere near £10 a week. The em­ployer last year paid £125 for the in­surance of his employees. He received a bonus of £43 13s. from our State In­surance OfHce. By inC!reasing the busi­lless of our State Insurance Office W'-;

shall increase the amount allowed in bonus. We shall thereby reduce the cost of workers' compensati~n on industry. There is one matter that. I regard as unfair' and unreasOl~able. I refer t.o

530 Workers' [ASSEMBLY·l OompenS~tli(/n Bill.

the drop that was made in the amount that the aged and infirm worker ,vas en­titled to. Whereas in the case of a man of 60 years of age the total amount pay­able as compensation was £600, as soon a;~ the worker passed that age the amount dropped to £100. That is too great a drop altogether. A case has been brought under my notice where two Ballar::tt workmen of high cfficiellcy '''lere com­pelled to sign an agreement to acccpt £100 as the full benefit they ·would bo entitled to under the 'W orkel's' Compensation .Ll.ct simply becuusd they were over 60 years of agi;o In the class of ·work that these men are doing the older and more skilled men really incur less risk of accident than the younger and unskilled men. If an up-skilled man under 60 years of age met with an accident resulting in his death, his widow would be en­t.itled to compensation up to £600, but if a man over 60 years of age met with a similar accident the amount which his widow could clain; would· be only £100. I trust that the l\1inister will consider that aspect of the matter with a view to reducing the difference in the compensation paid to workers in these two cases. There is another matter that ealls for attmltioll. Workcrs' insurance, we are told, is compulsory, but in many instances the employers evade their re­sponsibility. I have had cases of the kind brought unde,r my noticE'! in Ballarat. The employers had nOit insured, and t,he empl'oyees' organization had to take action to compel them to come under the Act. In my opinion, the State Insurance Office should be run in conjunction wi_th the Shops and Factories Act, and the register o,f people who have workshops and fac­tories should show also whether or not the,y have paid for the insurance Oof their eni­p]eyees.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAcocK.-l'hat is a very good suggestion.

Mr. McADAM.-An e111ployer might not be in a fip.ancial position, and could nOot be compelled to pay compensation ill 1he eV80nt of it fatal accident happening t.o en8 ef hjs employees. The' widow would then be left penniless owing .to the neglect of the employer to do his duty. I trust that the House will recognize the desirability of increasing the amo·unt as provided for in the Bill, and that the G<J1-vernment will give their ,serious eonsjdt'ra-

tion to the points to which I have drawn attention.

Mr. SLATER (Attorlley-G-encl'al).-I would no,t have risen to -speak but for t.he observations of the Leader of the Farmers Union party (1\11'. Allan). I think the

-honorable member has failed altogether to pay regard to the histol'ical, the legal, or the social aspect of this great problem. In regard to the case he quoted, I would say, at first. blush,· that he has entirely misunderstood the position, because ill what he said he did not give a true ex­pression of the law as it exists to-day. The law places on the employer the cnus of rebutting the presumption that the accident occurred in the course of the employment.

::\lr. ALLAN.-The man to whom 1 re­ferred ,,;as in the. employment of the con­tractor, but the accident happened out cf WOl'kjllg hours. .

:1\11'. SLAl'ER.-Nejther an emplcyer 1101' an em ployee can contract himself out of this liability, and the conditions of the policy in the case referred to must have covered all risks incidental to the em­ployment.

1\1:r. ALLAN.-Do you say that an em­ployer lS liable when' the ac~ident happells outside the usual working hours ~

,:\11'. SLATER.-The test is whether the accident arose out of the employment, and the onus of rebutting that rests with the employer. The hornorable member misunderstands the principle of workers' compensation. Originally this matter was govel'uedby the law of contract-the hon­orable member for Ballarat West will appreciate this position-under which a definite· sta tus between master and servant exists. ~ith the growing comple1xity of modern mdustry, the who.Je status of the "\vorkel' was changed, and there had to be b.rought into the discussion of this ques­tlOn and the determination of the prin­ciples governing the matter considera.tions of l)l~hl~c right and of-State policy. When [I sllIlllar measure was introduced in England in the 90's, it was well said th~t the prinicplc underlyil1g this legis­latIon was that a person who on his own responsibility, and for his own profit, S(;ts in motion agencies tlul.t create Tisk~ for others-and nearly all forms of em­ployment .create risks-ought to be simi­]ar]y l'CSPOllsible for the consequences of what he does. For a considerable time the working classes of inost (;ountries of

Workers' [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J 531

ihe world-certainly those countries that had not adopted this principle-were de­prived of any right to compensation. That was because of three defences that might then be raised. First there was the question of whether the employer was assumed to accept the risk of employ­ment; then there was that atrocious law kno,,'n as "common employment" where the accident was said to occur through the negligence of a fellow employee j pud, thirdly, there was the defence 01 ('ontributory negligence. :Nfost countries have broken these defences down and have ndopted the principles that are embodied ill our legislatioll, to which, to my sur­llrise, the honorable meD;l.ber for Rodney has taken exception to-day. I think there are some 50 countries in the world that have adopted the principle of compulsory ·workers' compensation, and with very few exceptiol1s-I think less than five-the whole burden has been rightly thrown on t.he employer class. When a W orkel's' Oompensation Bill was first introduced. in England, following the legislation in Uermany, it was very properly recognizerl t.hat this was a burden t.hat the industries should bear.

:M:r . .A.LLAN.~If this Bill were defeated the principle of workers' compensation would still remain.

Mr. SLATEH..-All this measure is de .. signed to do is to widen the applicat.ion of' the principle. The honorable member has failed to pay sufficient regard to the fact that there has been a remarkable (·hange in the purchasing power of money, the result being that the compensation flaid to a man lmder the Acts that exi~t to-day may be less in value than that paid uuder the previous Acts years ago.

Mr. MORLEY.-When the principal Act hecame law, a bricklayer was not getting £2 a clay.

::\Ir. \VARDE.-He does not get that to­day; he gets. 24s. 6d. per da.y.

l\lr. SLAT'ER.-If a bricklayer's wage is higher to-day than it was years agO', and he is nOf\V wQlrth 248. 6d. or 30s. per day, his compensation when he is in­jured should certainly be higher than it would have been when his wage "vas lower.

:lVlr. lYIoRLEY.-\Ve contend that if he is getting such a, big wage he ought to be a hIe to! put sometbing hy.

1\11'. SLATER.-The vital principle of thi9 legislatiOin is that the risks are created by the man who employs the labour. The industry is responsible. All countries throughout the world have ac­cepted that as fundamental. It will be an extraordinary position if honorable members are go,ing to . lose sight of the historical aspect of the question and of the fact that in every country throughout the world where similar legislation to this is . operating, it is operating along the same lilles as in Victoria. That is to say, the burdell of insurance falls on those who actually employ labour. In support of the idea, that State insurance activilies might be widened ill regard to! this class of work, I shall quo te' a passage from The TVorl.:el' in Jfodern Economic Soc1'et/l, which was published this year. It makes a complete survey of the whole of the accident insurance system in America. It is stated in this work that-

The cost of compensation inSlll'alll'C to elll'

ployers, under dHfe'rent insurance systems, may be indicated by their expense ratios. The average expense ratio of stock companies is approximately 38 per cent., of mutual com­panies about 20 per cent., of competitive State funds about 10.6 pCI' cent., and of exclusive State funds about 4 per cent. Under an exclusive State fund, therefore, the cost to em­ployers would be 30 per cent. less than under stock insnrance, and 16 per cent. less than under mutual insurance. The total saving to insured employers of the United States, if all were insured in exclusive Statc funds, would be over ~30,OOO,OOO mlHually.

If there is some complaint to-day about the high rates that are being charged, honorable mem bel'S on the Opp.osi tio'll side of the Housel are responsible fOil' them, because t.hely did not make' pro­visiolll fo'1.' the St.ate office having a mono­poly of this business.

1\11'. T'uNNEcLIFFE.~They deliberately oppose.d that. .

l\1r. SLAT'ER.--The Chief Secretary will produce da,ta shorwing that had the State been given a, monopoly of t.his business, it is safe to aSSUllle that the rates the employers would be paying to­day would be thel same as the rat.es the employers in the United Stat.es of America, are paying, where there' is State insurance. I dOl Hot consider that the oppcsi tion that has been voiced against the Bill is sound. I think it is recog­nized that the Bill dOles not even go as far as it might go, and tha,t we might with safety still furthe'l' liberalize the present legis;lation on this subject. How-

532 Worke'J's' [ASSEMBLY.] Gcrnpensation Bill.

,ever, I me,rely rose with the idea, of re­butting some of the arguments that. were addressed tOt the House this afte,rnoon by the honorable member for Rodney. I feel that. we shall be ret.rO'gressing indeed 1£ we 10'se, sight of the very fundamental facts that have esta,blished workers' com­pensation, not merely in this country, but. practically throughout the world, and if we dO' not insist on the burden of the insurance falling upon the employing dass.

:11r. TUNNEOLIFFE (Ohief Sec·· retal'y).-By leave, I wish to say a fevv words. I think honorable mem­bbr~ Oll the other (the Opposition) side of the House are fully justified in rcqncstiug that the fullest information should bo made a,vailable to them before they are asked to cast their, vO'tes UpOll the principles embodied in this Bill; and if the Leader of t.he Opposition will undertake to give us the second reading I will see tha,t the fulles,t info'fmation is made available to honorable members, so that they ma,y be able, in the light of that information, to discuss the measure in greater detaiC'and cO'me to reasonable conclusions in regard to the provisions that have been under discussion, There are a, few figures, I should like to make available now, and I hope to make mO're extensive da.ta, available subseauentlv, In Queensland the maximum, amount of compensa.tion payable is £750, as against £600 in Victoria ,; a,ud the Queensland Act includes as industrial diseases a large number O'f diseases that a,re nO't. in­cluded in our Act, such as septic poison­ing, Asiatic chQilera, bubonio pla,gue, diphtheria, measles, mumps, sca,rlet fever, small-pox, tetallus; and t.yphoid fever O'r othe1' zymQitic diseases, N otwi thsl-anding the inclusion O'f those diseases in the VV OI·kers' Compensation Act Qif Queens­land, the insurance ra.tes are not appre­ciably higher in that, Sta,te than in Victoria, where considerably smaller bene­fits are provided. The report of the Queensland State Insurance Office shows that. in regard to workers' compensation, taking into consideration that the bene­fits in Queensland are much greater, the insurance rates are 33-1 per cent. lower than the rates obtaining in Victoria. In Victoria the rate for 'butchers is 20s. to 25s., and in Queensland it is 26s.; the rate for farmers in Victoria is 15s., and' in Queensland it is 16s.; for road-makers the rat£' in Virtoria is from 22s. 6d. to 30s.,

and in Queensland it is 29s. In Victoria the rate for workers in sand and gravel pits is 35s., and in Queensland it is the same. In Victoria the rate for quarry­men is from 40s. to 80s., and in Queens-

-land it is from 50s. to' 80s. The rate for refreshment-room employees in Victoria is 8s., and in Queensland 9s., and the rate for slaughtermen in Victoria is 25s., and in Queensland 26s. Honorable members 'will see that notwithstanding the vastly wider scope of the Queensland legislation the rates are not appreciably higher than the Victorian rates.

Mr. MORLEY.-YOU read out a list of diseases, including small-pox. There might not be a case of small-pox III a hundred years.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-But the Queensland A.ct includes diphtheria, ,,,hich is an endemic, and mumps, and measles, which are very common com­plaints. Notwithstanding that compensa­tion is made payable in respect to those diseases the Queensland premium rates are not significantly higher than the Vic­torian. I will see that the fullest infor-

,matioll is madG available to honorable members.

~A:r. A. A. HILLSON (Ovens) .-The Bill we have before us in one that does not, commepd itself to me, but I am not' going to enter into any lengthy criti­cism of the measure at this stage. In view of the understanding arrived at between the Leader of the Oppe'sition and the Go­Yernment, that if the Bill is committed, prcgress will be reported on the first clause, I prO'pose to support. the s6col1d reading.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read r second time, and

('ommitted pro forma.

vVHBAT :MARKETING !BIl~L.

}.tIr. HOGA_N (Minister of Agricul­tllre).-I move-

That this Bill be IIO\\' read a second time,

I desire to point out that notwithstanding the efforts which were made to provide for a compulsory wheat Pool for the whole of \the wheat-growing States in Australia, we 'were unable to secure that desirable end. We are, therefore, intro· ducing a Bill to pl~ovide for a compulsor) Pool for Victorj~ \a!101lE'." The Prime

VVheal 1.:24 SEl'TEMBER, 1924.J 111 arkeling Bill. 533

:Minister of the Commollwealth submitted a proposal for a voluntary Pool for four States, but we were unable to accept that method of dealing with this question. Nearly en~r.Ything else in his scheme was acceptable to us. The first clause ill his proposal 'was for voluntary wheat Pools to be constituted in the four wheat-producing States. The sec-ond ,\vas that such Pools were to operate f or a period of three years, and the seventh that any grower desiring to put his wheat into any Pool in allY year subsequent to the first year, should pay a levy on all "wheat sold by him outside the Pool at tho same rate as the wheat placed in the Pool. Those three pro­posals wore in harmony with a voluntary .Pool, but "wore in confiict with the prin­ciple of a compulsory Pool, and, conse­quen tly, ,\ve could not accept them. The other details of his scheme were accept­ilble to the Victorian Government, and I Illay say that the only real conflict was be­tweon a yo]untary and a compulsory Pool. ,Ve wanted a compulsory Pool, but the Prime :Minister would not agree. lIe in­sisted upon a voluntary Pool, and Victoria is, regrettably enough, deciding to act on its own and constitute a compulsory Pool. We believ:e that it is necessary to have one selling agency for the wuole of the wheat­growing States, and also to have one chartering agency to secure the best re­sults. Even if we have a compulsory Pool in Victoria and there be yoluntarJ~ Pools in the other States-except Queens­lund, where there is a C'ompulsory Pool­we illtenc1, as far as possible, to work in harmony ,viththe other States on the ,~Teat question of marketing the wheat. If we can possibly do so, we will also have ,011e ehartering agency.

)Ir ... A.LLA.K.-Does .tho honora'ble gen­tleman say that the other States are going in for voluntary Pools?

~rr. IIOGAN.-There will be different ttl'rttllgemellts. QucelJslalld has a com­pulsory 1)001; X ev; South Wales and South Australia are to ha"e yoluntary Pool~, and ,Vestern Australia has some arl'Hngemellt of its own whereby the :FarIllors and Settlers ..:1ssoriation is deal­ing '\yith the marketing of wheat in that State. So far as the three States v;;rhich are adjacent to each other-South 11US­tralia, Victoria, and New South Wales-

arc concerned, Victoria is the only one that is to have a compulsory Pool. The difficulty in arranging such a Pool was to make the necessary financial provision for such a great undertaking. The Vic­torian wheat yield at the coming harvest will be between 36,000,000 and 40,000,000 bushels. The difficulty in arranging this matter has been overeome. It has been agreed that the Oommonvvealth Bank and the Associated Banks will advance 3s. Sd. pel' bushel on wheat" delivered into the Pool.

~Ir. \V"'ETTENIIALL.-Is that regardless of the market price at the time of de­livery?

Mr. HOGAN.-We have no doubt what the' market price will be at the time of delivery. It will probably be about {is. per bushel, but it lUay be a bit less.

.Jir. P:~KNINGToN.-Is that 3s. Sd. for delivery in ~l\1olbourne or in <the country ~

)11'. nOGAN.-It is for delivery in the COUll try, but charges for freight and 'haudlillg "will absorb about Sd. of the ad­nmee. ,Ye are endeavouring to have 1he adyauce increased to 4s. 4d. per Imshe], and if we can make the necessary fillllllC'ial arrangements, that rate will be paid. The State Government is to guaralltee the repayment of the advance to the banks.

::\11'. \VARDE.-IIave the banks agreed to advance 4s. 4,d, a bushel?

)'h. HOGAN.-The banks have agreed to ~cl vance to the Vllheat Board sufficient money to enable the Board to pay 3s. Sd. a bushel to the wheat-gro:wers as they deliver their wheat. Representations have been made to us that that amount will not he sufficient for the requirements cf some of the growers, men who are ill need of additional money. In order to get over that difficulty we are -endeavour­ing to induce the banks ·to make the ad­vance somewhat greater. But. whether the advance the banks make is 3s. Sd. or -I:s. 4<1. a bushel, the position 'will be this: the farmn will put in his wheat, which will be worth from 5s. Gd. tOo 68. a bu~hel delivered tOo the Board. Tho Board will issue to him a certificate on the delivery of that wheat and ,vill pay hiJll an ad­vance of 3s. Sd. or 4s. LId. a bushel as the case may be. That money the Board will obtain from the banks as an advance, and the State, Government is guaranteeing that the mon~y will be repaid to the bank~.

63~ Wheal [ASSE1'IBLY.] Ma·rlceti-ng Bill.

vVe are perfectly satisfied that it is safe to advance 48. 4d. a bushel, and if we can get the necessary financial support we are prepared to do that.

Mr. WARDE.-What pricel will the Go­vernment or the wheat-growers pay for that accommodation ~

lVl'r. nOGAN.-That will be a matter for arrangement between the banks and the Wheat Board. They will have to pay the market value far the money.

lVrr. WARDE.-'V.iil there be a. gradu­ated scale ~

Mr. HOGAN .-The banks will let the wheat-growers have the maney at the cur­rent market rates

lVIr. EGGLES'l'ON.-As raised by the in­terest for £7,000,000.

1\1r. nOGAN.-That will not make any difference. 'Vhether the wheat harvest IS financed by the 'Vheat Board thraugh a: compulscry Paol or a volunt.ary Pool, 01"

through private' enterprise, the sallle amount of money wjll be required to pur­chase the wheat. It will nat mean that.. any additianal money will be required as the result of this principle. Wheat rOl)lillg started in Australia ill 1.91.0. At a referendum of wheat-grmv8rs in .L921, 13,800 growers asked far con·· til1.l1anCe of the campulsary wheat Paiol. ~ otwithstaudillg tho wishos of tho wheat­grl)"wel'S, the compulsory Pool was discon­tinued in 1921 and a valuntary Pool estab­lished. The valuntary Pool has beon con­tinued since then under the name of the Victoriall \Vheat-growers COII-Joration: hut the prospects of thjs arganizatian for next seasan are unfavorable. Under the voluntary Pool the struggring farmers put tbeir wheat into the Pool, but others stood out and reaped the advantages created by the Pool in the same manner as in the dried fruits industry and the Australian Dried Fruits Association. The com­pulsory Pool ensures the inclusion of all ~\'heat~growers, and om bodies the adop­tion by tho wheat-gro\vers of the biblical principle of "Bear ye one anothcr's 1111rdens."

Mr. BEARDMORE.-It is nice to hear you r[uote Scripture. .

111'. nOGAN.-I prapose to quote It again before I finish. Instead of tl~c . ve'alt.hy growers, who· can ],lOld theIl' '(heat, reaping the cream of the market, Poolin'g ensures that every wheat-grower will receiYe the same price. This is a depal·ture. from modern capitalistic

methods which may be thus summarized: "Everybody for himself and the devil take the hindmost."

Mr. EGGLESToN.-Is that Scripture ~

lVIr. HOGAN.-No. That fine aId his­torical personage, Rob Roy !1:acGregor, held that view. No doubt honorable members are familial' with the lines:-

. . . . the good old rule Suftlceth them; the simple plan, 'l'ltn.t they should take who have the power, And they should keep who can.

vV 0 are tryillg to frustrate that unjust indiyidualistic code and to establjsh on(: where" He should earn who has the po.weI" and he should keep who earns." The issue involved in this Bill is, "Are ,ve in favour of securing far wheat-growers the full reward ·of their industry 1" The Government's answer to this question is " Yes," and this Bill is to give effect to our a11s".'er. The alternatives before us arc to pass this Bill and give wheat-grawers the full value of their product or to defeat this Bill and give speculators an opportunity to' gamble in wheat and levy toll on the farmer and the consumer. This Government believes that haphazard marketing of primary products is inferior to organized marketing. The haphazard method has had a long trial, but has not s~tisfied the growers. Wheat agents un­dertook the marketing" of wheat, but the work was badly done, and the wheat­growers were not satisfied wit.h the way .their crops were marketed. In response to universal requests to provide efficient markets for the sale of agricultural pro­ducts, we undertook to establish a com­pulsory wheat Pool, and this Bill is the redemption of that promise. The com­pu]sory Pool during the period of the war and the years immediately following it, and the voluntary Pools conducted for the last three harvests, have demon­strated that the whale wheat-growing in­dustry can be materially benefited by the marketing of. wheat through the medium of a Pool. It is also demonstrate(l that a compulsory Pool is a more efficient means of marketing than the merely voluntary Pool, which secures only a percentage of the wheat grown in the State. It is intended, therefore, to in­augurate a compulsory Pool, to be COll­

ducted generally upon the lines of tll0 previous Pools, and to be controlled by a Board. This Board will consist of five Ill.embers, three of whom will he electf'd

Wheat [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J M arlceting BilL 535

by the wheat-growers of the State as their representatives, and two will be appointed by the Government. to safeguard the in­terests of the Government and the general public. This Board will have' power to co-operate with the Pool authorities in the other wheat-growing States, especi­ally in regard to the chartering ot freight and any Australian selling organi­zation overseas. This will enable the growers to receive the maximum beneil:L from the elimination of numerous char­terers of freight and of numerous sellers of Austrnliall wheat in the overseas market. The importance of the elimina­tion of these factors cannot be over­estimated. It is the intention of the Go­vernment 10 encourage the shipment of wheat frOlll Portland. The Government is also c011sideriug the advisability of aHowing a. freight robate upon all wheat shipped at this port f1'0111. the country nort.h and \,\Tost or l\Iul'toa. It has beel) the policy of the voluntary Pool for the lUHt three years to use this port, but diflicultv was encountered on account of not ha~illg ~u:fficient wheat available t.here. The compulsory Pool would enable a large quantity of wheat to be diverted to Portland, and so increase the total quantity as to overcome this diffi­culty. In all other respects the voluntary 1>001 has demonstrated that Portland is a satisfactory po~·t from every other point of view, and that it is safe even for large vessels. Moreover, the voluntary Pool .found that it vvas good busines'3 to ship frm:n this port.. While this Bin provides for the inauguration of a compulsory Pool for OIle year, it is the intention of the Government to re-enact the measure, a.nd so give continuity to this efficient method of marketing the wheat produced :in this State. The Government has no, doubt that the results of a compulsory Pool at a time ""hen there is no acute shortage of shipping as was the case when the last compulsory Pool was conducted, will be most sar,isfactory from the point of view, not only of the wheat-growers themselves, but a1800f the general public, who will be assured of the retention of sufficient wheat in the State for the entire year, and that the price of th8 wheat required for consumptioJl within the Sta.te will be one which will be reasonable in any circumstances that may arise. The main prQlvisions of the Bill are to pro­vide for the constitution of a Board to be, oo.lled the, Victorian VVheat Board, and to

endow it with power to buy and market wheat of the, season 1924-25 in accordance with pooling principles. The sale of wheat except to or by t.he Board is also

. prohibite~. Clause 2 gives the interpre:­tation of various words and phrases used in the Bill. Clause, 3 makes the Bill ap­plicablel only to wheat ha.rvested during the season 1924-25. It is the Govern­ment's intention to re-enact this Bill ne,xt year, and so givel continuity to this efficient method Q1f marke.ting wheat.

l\1:r. O:M:AN.~That is if you remain in office.

:Mr. IIOGAN.-\Ve have that expec­ta tion. CIa use 4 provides for the appointment and election of the Board, and for the appointment of the fivp.' members thereof. Clause 5 empo'wers the Boa,rd to make con­tracts, and generally to dO' those things which are necessary. Clause 6 specifi­cally enumerates that the Board may buy and sell wheat, and do everything inci· dental therEto. The, Board may avail it.· self of the use of Public Officers with the approval of the Minister of the Depart. ment concerned, and the rights of such officers are protected. It is intended that the services of the co-operative companies as handling contractors will bel utilized as hitherto. This will apply to the Vic-10rian Producers Co-operative Company and th8 Gippsland and Northern Co-oper-

, ativC' Company, 'which are organizations of farmers. \Ve think that they should be allowed to handle their members' w hea t . Clause 7 enrpowers the Mini>3ter to' make fina,ncial arrangements. It is the intention of the Government to co·, operate with PooIs in other States with a view of having onel joint selling agency in London, and one joint cha,rtering com­mi ttee. Clause 8 restricts the sale of wheat e,xcept to· or by t.he Board, but salfls of seed whe,a,t, infe'rior wheat, and whe·a.t grown in a.reas where only a limi­ted quantity is produced are allowed. It also empowers the Governor in Council to provide for further sales of whe1at. C1ause 9 prev8nts any miller from gristing wheat. for any other person without thel consent of the Board, and vitiates any contract by a miller by which he undertakes to grist. wheat for anothe,r person. It also vitiates any contract relating t.o the sa.1e of whea,t or flour to' be delivered after thel 1st day of Decembe-r, 1924, and before the 1st day of December, 1925. It pro­yides that where any such contract is

536 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] MaTke~ing Bill.

partli performed so much of the contract as is performed shall be valid. By clause 10 contracts entered into afte,r the, 26th of August, 1924, aJ.'e, declared void, but this clause is not to apply to Inter-State contracts. The, clause will also vitiate :lny contract relating to the sale of whe:tt or :£lour for delivery in Victoria on 01'

after the 1st day of December, 1924, and up to the 1st December, 1925.

lVlr. EGGLESToN.-That would vitiate a contra~t already made.

Mr. nOGAN.-Yes; it will vitiate every contract made on and afte'r the 26th day of August, 1924, which was the, date of -the formal notice, of the introduction of the Bill. For the information of hon­OI"able members I will read sub-clause, (1) of cl ause 10-

(1) Eyery contract llIade in Victoria on or uft8r the t.wenty-sixt.h da)' of August One thou­sand nine hundred and twenty-four so far as it relates to t.he sale of Victorian wheat or flour for delivery in Victoria on or after the first (lay of December One thous::md nine hundred and t.wenty-four up to but not later than the first day of December OIle thousand nino hun­<Ired and twenty-five shall, when specified by the Board in a notification published in the Govel'nment (J flzette, be and is hereby de­chred to be and to have been void, and of no dfect so far ns such contract has not been completed by delivery at the date of such notification: Provided that for the purposes elf this section any such contract shall be df'C'med to be serviceable.

:IYIr. EGGLESTON.-\Vhat will be the position of the wheat-grower ~

l\fr. nOGAN.-When a wheat-O'rower de1ivers wheat to the Board he will ~eceive the advance. The wheat will then be m~,rketable" and the average price ob­tamed for the sale of all the wheat in the Pool will be paid to ea,ch wheat-grower. Olause 11 provides that at the request of the Board the Railways Oommissioners may refuse to carry wheat or flour. Olause 12 pro'vides that no action shall be brought against the Board for conversion of wheat hy it, but that the rightful owner of the wheat may adopt the delivery of wheat to the Board by an unautho­rii~d person as delivery by him. ThIS clause also provides that the Board shall bel responsible nnly for such sum as is unpaid at the time of thel rece,ipt of not,ice 0.£ a claim by thel rightful o"\\-"']]er. Clause 13 provides that every vendor of whe'v . .t which is subject to any encum­branc'3 l:'.haJl give notice, of such encum­brance upon the delivery of such wheat. Clause 14 provides that whNe the Board in good faith and without negligence pays

the vendor deEve,nng the wheat, it shall nnt be responsible to any other person claiming to be the owner of such whea,t. CIa,use 15 provides that the Board shall not bel liable for loss caused by permitting a transfer of a. cedificate, wherel it acts in good faith and ,;vithout negligence. It also exempts the Board from liability where it pays the person 'named in the certificate· in good faith, but thel clause does not prejudice the rIghts inter se of the payee, and the claimant. The clause' defines "ce-rtifica te" and "transfer. " Clause 16 provides the conditions under which old or blended wheat may be de­livered. C1ause 17 provides that wheat not branded jn compliance with the pre­ceding clause shall be deemed to be tendered as wheat of the season 1924-25. Clause 18 provides that the tendering of wheat shall be evidence of intention to sell it to the Board. Clause 19 provides the various penalties for offences com­mitted under the Act. Clause 20 pro­vides the mode of recovery of penalties and the conditions under which proceed­ings may be brought for the enforcement of the Act or the recovery of penalties. Clause 21 provides that the Board shall cause books of account to be kept of all moneys received and paid. Paragraph (a) of sub-clause 2 provides that the accounts shall be audited by the Auditor-General or some pel"Snn authorized in writing by him. Sub­clause 3 provides that, the Board shall furnish the Governor in Councif with a true copy of the audited accounts. Sub-clause 4 provides that copies of these accounts, together with a statement of the moneys received by the Board and it~ expenditure, shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament. Clause 22 pro­vides that all moneys required in the execution of the Act and not provided for under it. shall be appropriated by Parliament for the purpose. Clause 2~~ provides for certain regulations to be made concerning the administration of the Act. Clause 24 gives the Governor in Council power to inquire into any alleged unreasonable price charged for wheat for local consumption, and to fh the fair market value. This provision was included in the Victorian Wheat Growers' Corporation Act 1921. Clause 25 indem­nifies the Crown and any Minister and the Board and its officers. Clause 26 in­corporates the schedule to the Act. Thii

lfheat L 24 SEI'TEMBER, 1924.J 111arkeling Bill. 531

is a very brief explanation of the Bill. Probably the most important provision in the Bill is clause 4,' which provides for the constitution of the Board. There 18

a vital difference between this compulsory wheat Pool and the compulsory wheat Pool in operation during tIle ·war. At that time the Minister in charge of the Department was practically the Board. He had certain persons to assist him as an advisory board. In this Bill we de­finitely provide for the creation 'of a Board to administer the affairs of this compulsory wheat Pool.

l{r. DEANY. - 1'1. .. Board nominateJ solely by the Governmelit.

Mr. lIOGAN.-That is not correct. :Mr. DEANY.-The Bill says so. 1fr. BAILEY.-It does not. lfr. IIOGAN.-The honorable mem­

ber for Warrnambool is most unfortunate in his guesses regarding agricultm'()1 matters. Last week we heard him mah:e the extraordinary ·guess that if we were to reduce freights the middleman would get the sole advantage. That was no more absurd than the statement he has jU'3t made. Sub-clauses (1) and (2) of clause 4 provide-

(1) For the purposes of this Act there shall be a Board (to bc called the Victorian 'Vheat Board) appointed by the Governol' in Council IlIHl constitnte.d and incorporated as herein­after provided.

(2) The Board shall consist of-(a) two members nominated by the Min­

ister; and (b) three members elected by the wheat­

growers as herp.inafter provided:

l\fr. DEANY.-What about the chair-man ~ The Government are to appoint him.

Mr. HOGAN.-The honorable mem­ber's statemrnt was that the Government would appoint the five members of the Board.

Mr. DEANY.-1 said it would be a. Go­vernment Board, because the Government would have a majority on the Board.

~Ir. HOG ... \.N .--N ot at all. The chair­man is to be one of tht' five members (.f the Board.

l\fr. DEANY.-He is to be nominated by the Government.. That means that there will be three Government nominees.

1\11'. nOGAN.-No. The honorablt' lllem bel' is not criticizing the Bill j he is merely making an error. The Board is to co·nsist of five members, three of whom will be elected by the w heat-growell's and

two of whom will be nominated by the Government..

1\1r. ALLAN.-\Vill you tell us how the three representatives of thel wheat-growers will be elected?

1\11'. HOGAN.-That is provided for in sub-clause (10) of clause 4. It reads-­

The following provisions shall apply with re .. ~pect to dection of members of the Board (in .. eluding elections to fill vacancies) :-

(a) For the purposes of any such elec­tion every wheat-grower wbose namp is enrolled on the roll of wheat­growers hereinafter provided for for the time being in force shull if he is a wlle,-;,t-grower at the time of the election be entitled to one vote; (h) All such elections s11all-

(i) be conductcd in all rcspecls whatsoever in such manner as is prescribed and upon rolls. of wheat-growers com­piled in accordance with this Act; and

(ii) be held at such times as are prescribed and under Lilo diree:tion of such returning o1't1CCl'S as are appointed h~' the GO\'cl'l1or in Council;

:\11'. ALLA:\'.-It m~y be some time be­fore you can get a roll of the wheat­growers.

:Mr. HOGA..N.-,Ve realize that diffi­culty, but it cannot be got over. We con­sidered this matter, and the only "my we know of by which it is possible to give the 'wheat-growers an opportunity of hav­ing their representatives on the Board is to permit them to elect them. We recog-11ize it will take a little time to do it, but we propose that it should be done as qujckly as possible. We are making pro­vision for the appojntment of a pro­yisiollal Board to do the work ulltil the other Bo~n'd is elected.

nlr. A..LI.AN.-How is the provisional 130ard to be appointed?

lIr. HOGAN.-It is to be nominated by the Government. . }Ir. OMAN.-What objection would

there be to the Board now carrying on the voluntary Pool?

lIr. HOGAN.-It was not elected by all the wheat-growers.

:Jfr. O::\fAN.-But what objection would there be to makillg that Board the pro­yisiollal Board?

Mr. HOG.A .. N.-That may be clone. The objection to making that Board the Board to conduct the business of the Pool is that at present all the wheat-growers in Vic­toria have not delivered their wheat k \ h"

538 Wheat (ASSKMBL Y.1 ]1 arkeling Bill.

Victorian vVheat-growers Oorporation, of which that Board is the managing autho­rity, and they have not all participated in the election of that Board, but under this Bill every wheat-grower in Victoria will be bound fo put his wheat into the Pool, and consequently we consider that he is entitled to vote for the election of the Board that will govern the Pool.

:Mr. ANcms.-Are you going to make the voting compulsory?

1.fr. HOGAN.-The Bill does not pro­pose to make it compulsory for the wheat­gro·wers to vote, but if the honorable mem bel' desires to make i t compulsory for them to do so, we shall not regard an amendment to that effect as a hostile one.

Mr. PENNIKGToN.-Who is to appoint tho chairman?

:Mr. HOG-AN.-The Government. ~fr. DEANY.-There you are; there are

the three" in the bag." 1.fr. HOG .. A .. N.-I do not know how the

honorable meI2.1l.ber for Warrnambool ar­rives at such extraordinary arithmetical results. The ,vheat-growers, who will be given the right to elect three members to a board of five, Viri.ll know all about the matter, and the three men whom they elect win, I am quite satisfied, merit their confidence. If· that be the case, what is there for the honorable member for Warr­l1ambool to complain about? He seems t.o think that one of the three men whom the ,,,heat-growers will elect will be "in our bag," hut hOI" he manages to transfer him from the wheat-growers' "bag" to the GOyerllmcnt "hag" is a process I do lIot unclerstalld.

~Ir. DEANY.-Bccause you have the powcr of appointing him chairman.

JIr. HOGAN.-What difference will that make?

1.fr. BROWXBILL--He wjll still be a wheat-grower.

111'. HOGAN.-I am afraid the honor­ahle member for Warrnambool must be measuring this man by his own bushel, but I believe the wheat-growers' represen­tatives 011 the Board will be f.a.q.

:Mr. "\VAIIDE.-Thcy will want to be a lot morc than f.a.q. to resist the tempta­tion of the chairmanship.

Mr. HOGA.N.-I thought when I made the explanation about the wheat-growers' representatives heing f.a.q. that it was only llE'CeSsary to apply it. to one lrembel'

of the House, but it appears that it i3 necessal~y to apply it to two.

Mr. GREENwooD.-What is the idea of su'b-clause (4) of clause 4? It states the· procedure if a representative of the wheat­growers is not elected. How can tha.t occur?

Mr. HOGAN.-That sub-clause pro­vides-

If any elective member is Hot elected u.s aforesaid the Governor in Council may ap .. point any person to be n, member of the Board as representing wheat-growers, and the person so appointed shall for all purposes he deemed to have been duly elected and to he rm elected member of the Boarli.

I would clirect the attention of honorable members to the preeeding sub-clause-

Members of t.he Board shall hold office, in the case of the first appointment thereof, until ihe appointment 01' election of their suc­cessors, and, in the case of any subsequent appoiutment of :\ member thereof or in the case of tin eleeled member, for a term of twelve months, but (subject to this Act) any person appointed or elected as a member of the Board shall upon tho expira.tion of the term for which such person is so appointed or elected be eligible for re .. appointment elec .. tion if then qualified.

Supposing one of the wheat-growers' 1'e-,

prescntatives fans out; provision is made tha t the w hea t-growers shall elect some one to take his place, but in case they fail to do so, sub-clause (4) pro~ides that the vacancy can be filled by the Government.

:Mr. O.;\fAN.-What term will the wheat­growers' representatives be elected for ~

lvIr. HOGAN.-The Bill is for one year, and the Board is to be elected for one year, but, as I have intimated, it is the intenticn of the Government, when the Bill expires next year, to re-enact it, and to continue this method of marketing wheat.

1\fr. BE.ARO::UORE.-YOU nre very. opti­mistic.

Mr. HOGAN.-Not a bit. I think that after having tried all the different. methods of marketing primary products -the usual trade channels, compulsory pooling. and voluntary pooling--the wheat-growers, and the farmers genel'all,v, have arrived at the conclusion that the most effective method of marketing their produce is the compulsory Pool. Instead of haphazard methods of marketing they prefer organized methods. As the wheat is the property of the wheat-growers, and they appear to be almost unanimous in favour of a compulsory Pool, I have no

Wheat L 24 SEPTEMBEH, 1!)24.] 111.arkeli'YIg Bm. 539

doubt whatever that the rest of the people of Victoria will be fail' and just, and will suy to these m.en who have ploughed the ficlds, sown the crops, and garnered the harvest, "It is your wheat, and if you think you will get a better result by mar­keting through a compulsory Pool than by auy other means, \yell, we see no rea-8011 why you should be denied that pri vilege." .

Mr. PKNNINGTON.--The wheat-growers are far from unanimous to-day.

.Mr. HOGAN.--I do not know about that. Yestcrday a deputation was intro­dueed to me by the honorable member for Hodncy on behalf of the Victorian \Vheat-growers Corporation. They said that they represented 60 per cent. of the whcat-grO"\vcrs of Victoria, and they prc­sPllh,d me with three resolutions that they had carried at their meeting that morn­ing. Those resol:utions ·were supported by statements by Mr. Anderson, of Dim­boola, and ].11'. IJe Licvre, from Swan Hill. They said that they unanimously desired UlHl required a compulsory Pool, and that a voluntary Pool was no good for thcm. As for private enterprise and the usual tl'ade channels, they said that they had suffered under that system and did not wish or intend to revert to that if it could be avoided.

"Thlr. SLATER.-Was it not an ironical l'irmullstance that the honorable member 1'01.' Hodlley introduced that deputation?

3fr. HOGAN.-I do not know any­i1iillg about that.

~\lr. DEANY.-Did not :NIr. Sutcliffe l't'('.oHllnmld a compulsory Pool?

\fr. HOGAN.-I believe he did. "\-fr. DEANy.-...:\.ud you are carryillg

ont his rcconuncndation? lfr. HOGA.N.-N ot necessarily. If

·[110 honorable member would only go back a EttIe he -would remember that the lJabour party has always stood for a com­pulsory 'iyheat Pool. We fought for it, and we promised the people of Vic­toria that we would bring it into op,ora­t.ioll jf we over had the po\ver to do so.

lIr. DEANY.-In the interests of the (',OIl.sUlllcrs.

1Ir. IIOG.A .. N.-In the interests of the growers -ancI the consumers. In addition

. to that, it \vas included in the policy state­lUent which the Premier submitted to Parliament two months ago. That was

before :nfr. Sutcliffe made his report. The Government had determined to in­troduce a compulsory Pool, and we 80 in­formed Parliament. Subsequently Mr. SutclifFe submitted his report, in which he recommended a compulsory Pool. That was entirely a secondary matter, and as for it affecting our intention of introducing a compulsory Pool"-':-'well, it had 110 effect on the Government's mind.

)fr. DEANY.-1Ir. Sutcliffe recom­mended it in favour of the consumers.

:J.fr. I-IOG.AN.-And we are carrying jt out in favour of the wheat-growers and the eOllsumers.

jIr. GREENwooD.-llow will ~ou get Oll later \\'hen you have to deal with the ... \.ustl'ulian price?

:;\11'. HOG1U'J".-It will be dealt with in the same way as during the last thref' years. The identical provisioll that we are cmborlyillg ill this Bill was passed in the measure which provided for the estab­listment of the Victorian vVheat-growers <:orporation. I think the clause was in­:::r.rtcd at the illstigation of the honorable ll1r.mhcr for St. Kilda.

}Ir. EGGLESTO"N;.-:My amendment was (liff(1),E'nt.

}fr. nOGAN.-Anyhow, it was put ill b~' the honorable member's Goverll­ment:

).{1'. EU(lLEWI'ox.-I \vas llot in the :Ministry then.

}Ir. IIOGAN.-Thcn it was a Govern-1)1f'nt of which the honorable member was a supporter. I-Iaving explained the Bill) I think the best thing that I can now do is to give it my blessing and benc­dir.fion. For that purpose I am again going to refer to that wonderful book, the Bible, which shows us how the first wheat P~ol in history was formed at God's express command, and he who reads can sec how that Pool prevented sperulation in wheat and saved a nation from starvation. In Genesis, chapter xli.} and succeeding chapters, we read how Pharaoh dreamed a dream about the ,:leVell ""en-favoured kine and the seven lean kine, and how Joseph interpreted the dream to mean seven years of plenty, follo'wed by seven years of famine. And .Joseph saying, "The thing is established by o-od," told Pharaoh that he must ap­point certain officers, "and let them gather all the food of those good years

540 Wheat (ASSE1iBLY.1 Marketing Bill.

that came, and lay up corn under the hand of Pharaoh, and let them keep food in cities. And that food shall be for store to the land against the seyen years of famine which shall be in the land of Egypt; that the land perish not through the famine." .A.nd Pharouh said unto his servants, 'Can ·we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the spirit of God is~' And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, 'Foras­lllueh as God had showed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art.' A.nd he (Joseph) gathered up all the food of the seven years "vhich were in the land of Egypt and laid up the food in the cities, the food of the field which \\Tas round about every city laid he up in the same. And when all the land" of Egypt was famished the people eried to Pharaoh for bread, and Pharaoh said unto all the Egyptians, 'Go unto \Joseph; what he saith to you, do.' A.nel .J osep-h opened ,all the store houses and sold 111lto the Egyptians. And all coun­tries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy corn; because that the famiue was so sore in all lands." That finishes the biblical quotation. N o\Y

I want to make a comment upon it.

:vfr. B:F]ARDlfORE.-That was your text.

itfr. HOGAX,-I should like the hon­O1'able me1n bor for Benambra to control himself. That was the first wheat Pool, and it ,vas established by Divine com­mand. That \\'heat Pool saved the people of Egypt and the people of Israel, and the people of the surrounding countries. Sup­posing the wheat-growers of Egypt had been compelled to gamble with the wheat speculators of the time-and there were wheat speculators then as now, as history records-what would have happened ? We know the low prices they would have got for their wheat in years of plenty. The Egyptian equivalent of the press would have "beared" down prices by harping on the surplus production. Then when the lean years came along and all the wheat was in the speculators' hands, we know what the people would have had to pay. There was State interference, ill­Rpired by God, in Egypt in the time of Pharaoh, and it saved God's chosen people, the precursors of Ohristianity. God ordained the wheat Pool in days of old, common sense and humanity demand it to-day, and denounce the iniquitous sys-

tern of gambling in foodstuffs, which is the only alternative to the compulsory Pool.

J\1:r. BEARDl\fORE.-We ought to have }Ir. Hogan's sermon printed and circu­lated amongst farmers.

lvir. HOGAN.-Perhaps the honorable member would then give the quotation from the Holy Book a little more rever­P,l1ce than he has up to the present. What I hm;e said establishes the fact that there was a Divine command for the establish­ment of such an institution to save the people from food speculators and food gamblers of the time.

:1fr. EVERARD.-The " cockies " in those days would haye held their wheat.

:Mr. HOGAN.-I do not think they l'onld have done so. The proposal no~' before honorable members is quite simple. There is nothing new about a wheat Pool. It is well known to the people of Vie­t·oria and to the people of Australia. 1,Ve have tried compulsory and yohmtul'Y wheat Pools, and priYate marketing has been tried. I have no doubt whatever· that the most effective method for the marketing of this product is a compulsory Poo1. Wheat-growers are asking for it. [Iud dried fruit growers are 'also. asking for a compulsory Pool.

~1:r. MORLEY.-What about an onion and a green pea Pool?

~fl'. HOGAN.--J?eoplc interested in growing onions have asked for a Pool. The Allstralinl1 Dried Fruit GrQwers As­sociation is really a voluntary Pool, but it has failed to efficientlv achieve its purpose; and from ail over the State we are receiving requests from dried fruit growers for the establish­ment of a compulsory Pool. It will be seen that this kind of a Pool is rapidly winrling' the respect and approval of the producers of this State. They de­sil'e to be freed fl'om the haphazard method of marketing their products, and they al'e asking that there shan be a pro­perly organized system for the disposal of their goods. We think it is a very rea­sonable request, and consequently we have introduced this Bill to provide for a compulsory whea~ Pool.

:;Hr. OMAN.-I should like the Min­ister to agree to an adjournment of t11e debate until Tuesday week.

Mr. HOGAN.-N 0; one week only.

Wheat L24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Marketing Bill. 541

.Mr. 01IAN.-This is an important Bill, and I do not think I should ask for a long adjournment, for if we delay in coming to an agreement on this point, great injury will be done to the "'heat­growers of this State.

l\Ir. HOGAN.-'Ve want to go on ·with this Bill llext Tuesday. It is quite time this q'Je8tion was settled, so that ships may be chartered, and other necessaty ar­rangements made.

.111'. OJ\iIAN.-I secured the adjourn­ment Of another Bill until next Tues­day, and I do not want to prepare ·two Bpeeches for the same day.

l\:Ir. IIoGAN.-Prepare your speech for "[-.his Bill, because we will go 011 with it llcxt Tuesday.

111'. O~lAK.-I will be agreeable if the ndjoul'nment is made until next Wednes­day. This is a very big subject. I re­cognize that there is great virtue ill a voluntary Pool. It has been a great suc­(!CSS in Victoria, and., during the war period the compulsory Pool was also very .successful. I should be giyen reasonable time to obtain the information I ·want.

1Ir. IIoGAN.-I started to prepare my speech only last night.

~Il'. O]'IAN.-I thillk it" is a fair re­quest to ask for an adjoU1'l1l~1ellt until llext \Vednesday.

)Ir. BAILEY.-You have all day to-morrow nnd the ,veek-end. ~

i\Ir. Ol\£AN.--I have to go to the t;how to-morrow and on Friday, and then I go home. I have to return to Mel­hourne on ~[onday night.

~fr. IIoGAx.-Others may be prepared to dehntc the Bill.

1fr; 01LAN.-I am only asking for a reasonable adjournment.

111'. IIoGAN.-We want to put this Bill ~}J1'ough the House next week.

:LVII'. OMAN.-I do not want to hold it up unnecessarily. V\T e want to get this matter settled one way or the other, so that wheat-growers will know where they stand.

. }Ir. PRENDERGAsT.-I ~hought you. knew all about it by this tIme.

}rh. OMAN.-'ViII . the honorable gentleman agree to the adjournment of the debate until next Wednesday ~ I want to facilitate in every way I can a decision on this matter. I moye--

That the debate be now pdjourned.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to.

:Mr. Ol\fA.N.-I move-That the debate ue adjourned until \\"ednes­

day, October 1st"

Sir .ALEXANDEH PEAOOOK.-I appeal to the Premier to consent to the adjournment of this debate until next vVednesday. The Bill is a very im­pOl'tant one, not only to members of Par­liament but to wheat-growers and others , .... ho are interested in this question . People residing in remote parts of the State will not be able to get reports of ·what has taken place until the week-end, or early next week. I should like to con­gratulate the Minister on his biblical knowledge. People will want to look up their Bibles on Sunday to sec if the auotations are correct. I am not making ;ny eOlllplaint about the delay ill intro­ducing this Bill. 1. kno,v from past ex­perience what trouble the draftsmen have when a change of Government takes place. They lU1:ve to work continuously, and it takes time to prepare some Bills. vVe laymen think that the work is compara­tively easy, but a good deal of re~earch work has to be done by the draftsmen in the preparation of some Bills. The hon­orable member for Hampden had the ad­ministration of our wheat Pool, and its great success is a source of satisfaction to eyerybody in Victoria, particularly ·when "'e know that it C08t the State r..othing, while other States had bitter ex­perience in meeting the obligations they incurred. The l\finister might well graciously . accede to this request, Hnd jf the resumption of the debate is fixed for next Wednesday, mem­bers will in the meantime have had an opportunity· of studying the Bill.

Mr. BRowNBTLL.-The honorable memo ber for Hampden could gOr on with his ~peech to-morrow.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-·We on this side cc;u]d go on at any time. .

1\lr. ALLAN.-I hope the PremIer will grant an adjournment of tl~e debate until 'Vednesday. I take it that we shall not meet to-morrow, as that is the Show holiday. There will, there~ore, be only one more sitting day before 'Vednesday.

l\'fr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).­This Bill is important and urgent. 'Ve aTe· . appe",ling to the Farm~rs Unio~ party· to help us to get ~hlS measure

542 Voles 0'/1, [ASSEMBLY.1 Account.

through a,t the earlie-st possible moment. 'rhere aJ:e important matters that must. be setHed, and tha.t cannot be settled until the Bill is passed. The Gove,rnment have been in 'Office now some eight or nine weeks, and have had the prospect of pushing on with this Bill before it the whole time. Some of my friends sat up late last night compiling rna,tter in COll­

nexion with the Bill. It would expedite matters if the debate were, adjourned until Tuesday.

Mr. ALLAN.-That will be the next si tting da,y.

lVIr. PRENDERGAST.-Tha,t does not mat.ter. Honorable members will have Thursday, Friday,., Saturday, Sunday­they can look up the biblical references on that day-and l\1onda,y in which to study the Bill. We have adjourned the de bate on the se·cond reading of nearly every Bill that has come up. These .con­tinual adjou:rnments hamper us in regard too a number of Bills W€l a,re anxious to bring on. The adjournment till Tuesday ia reasonable. .

.sir ALEXANDER PEACOClL-N'Ot for a Bill of this character.

The motion was agreed to, alld the de­bato was adjourned until Wednesday, Oetouer 1.

ESTIMAT'ES. M.r. PRENDERGAST (Premier) pre­

se.nted a message from His Excellency the Governor, transmitting an estimate of expenditure f'Or the month o,f October, 1924, a.nd recommending an appropria­tion of the Consolidated Revenue accord­ingly.

VOTES ON ACCOUNT. . The House resolved itself into Commit­t3e of Supply.

Mr. PRENDERGAST' (Premier).-I 111 Qove-

That tt Sllm not exceeding £] 395448 be granted to His Majesty on a~count fo~ or to­wards defraying the following services for the yefH' 1924-25 :-Legislative Conncil-salaries anci ordinn,ry expenditure, £133; LeO'islative Asse~J:bly-sa~aries and ",ordin.ary . expe~diture, £1,369; Parhameutary ::;tandmg Committee­salaries and ordinary expendittll'e, £117; Re­I'l'eshment Hoollls-salaries and ol'flina,rv ex­penditure, £3G9; Engineers-salaries and or­dinary expenditure, £65; The Library-salaries and ol'din~l'Y expenditure, £7~; The Library, State ~arlta.ment House.-sa~arles anrl ordinary expendIture, #239; V lCtor.lan Parliamentary Debates-salanes and ol'dmary expendi~nre,

£657; Chief Secretary's Office-salaries and or­dinary expenditure, £2,414; Chief Secretary's Office--pensions, &c, £8,100; Chief Secretary's Office-grants, £1,100; Board for the PrQtection of the Aborigines-salaries and ordinary ex­penditure, £321; Explosives-salaries and or­dinary expenditure, £725; State Accident In­sumnce Office-salaries and ordillary expendi­ture, £365; Fisheries and GCLme-salarie8 and

. ordinary expenditure, £516; Government Short­hand \Vriter-salaries and ordinary expendi­ture, £104; The Governor's Office-ordinary expenditure. £39; Herbarium-salaries and (H~­dinary expenditure, £60; Inebriu.tes Institution -sa~aries ::md ordinary expenditure, £396; lUanne Boctl'cl-sahwies and ordinary expelldi­turE', £119; Observatory-salaries and ol'dinaT\: expcmliture, £475; Premier's Offtee-sularie's and ol'c1inary expenditure, £550; Agent-Gene­ral-staff and office, £824; Audit Offic{'-· salaries and ordi!illry expenditure, £2,327; G 0-

\'ernment Statist-salaries and ordinary ex­penditure, £:3,064; Hospitals for the Insane­salaries and ordinary expenditure, £42,500; Xeglected Children, &c.-salaries and ordinary expenditure, £26,782; Pena.l and Gaols-salarie~<; and . ordinary expenditure, £9,650; Poliee·­salarlf'S and ordinary expenditure, £65,500; Pnhli(' ·Lihrary, &e., salaries and ordi-11 a 1',)' expenditure, £3,6n5; Publie 8e1'­"iee COlllmissioner - salarie:-; and or­dinary espenditure, £428; De>partment of Labour-salaries ancl~ ordinary expenditure, £;~, 110; Educ:ation-salaries, £173,350;. Ecluca­tinll-ol'(linal'Y oxpenditure, £14,500; Educa­tion-pensions, &l!., £21; 'Education--works alld bu i III i ngs, £ 1 ,;500; Edm'u tion-elldowments and grants, £29,000; Attorney-Gelleral­sa,laries, £9,893; Attol''l1ey-Genel'al-ordinar:-' pxpenditllre, £2,708; Solieitor-General-­salarief:., £5.639; Solieitor-General-ordinarv t'xp~nclitnl'e, . fl!800; Treasury-salaries and ordlnary expeJlchture, £3,580; Treasury-trans­port, &c., £500; Treasury-unforeseen expendi­ture, £500; Treasury-payments to Railway Department, £600; Treasury--charitable grant, &e., £12,600; Treasury-pensions, &c., £20; 'rrea8ury--exceptional expenditure, £3,350; Taxation Office-administration-sala,l'if's, £272; Taxation Office-income tax-salaI'ies and 01'­

dimLry expeu(litnre, £7,661; Taxation Office-­land tax-·salaries and ordinary expenditure, £~~,321; 'Taxation Office-death duties-salaries a.nd ordinary expenditure, £243; CUl'iLt.Ol'­sa.larie::: find ordiuary expenditure, £486; Go­v~rnment Printer-saln,ries a.nd ordinary expen­c~ltLlre, £9,099; Govel'nment Prinler- excep­tlOnal expenditllre, £208; GOV(~rnlllent Printer -advel'tising, f24!l; Survey, &e., Crown IJands -sal~rit's and ordinary expenditure, £9,296; PublIc Parks, &e.-sa1a1'ies and ordinary ex­penditure, £97; Botanic, &c., Garclens-salaries and onlinary ex}wnditure, £1,417; Extirpation of Rabbit.:::. &c.-sn.laries and ordinary expendi­tlll'e, £7,183; Works and Buildings,. £500; Crown Lands-·exceptional expenditure, £1,750; Immigration Bm;eau, £1,:365; Public \Yorks­salaries and ordinary expenditure, £6,500; l~orts anel Harbours-salaries and ordinary €x~ penditure, £3,240; Ports and Harbours-,,:orks, &c., £3,000; Public \Vorks-works n.ncl build­ings, £28,000; Puolic \Y orks-roads, works, and bridges, £500; Public \\T orks-endo\''''mcnts and grants" lHunicipalities, &c., £2,000; .I\fiJlf's

Voles on 1)4 SEPTEMBER, 19'2'.1.J Account. . 543

--~alarics and ordinary expenditure, £2,555 ; n;rmes~furtherallce of mining industry, £2,300; Sta,te Ii orests-salul'ic:3 and ordinary expendi­ture, £8,133; State Rivers and Water Supply Commission-salaries, &c., £17,070; Agriculture --:-admin~str~l!iyc-:s~laries and ordinary expen­<.l1ture, £l,la/; AgrJe'ulturc-salaries anel orcli­nary expelldit urc. £5,UJ::I; Hortieultlll'C-sala­ries amI ordinary expenditure, £2,034; Stock lllld Dairy-:-::mlaries and ordinary expenditure f4,07ti; Export Develop.ment-salaries and or~ dinary expenditure, £3,226; Public Health­I>ulu,ries and ordinary expenditure £15020· Public .Health-miscellaneous, £385; Ran'way~ :-work.mg expenses, &c., £763,754; Railways­R:.tiI\vay Contitruction Branch, £1,145; State Coal ::\line-\\'orking expenses, £46,7flO. Total, fl,:ml),44H. •

\Vhen submitting the Supply Bill for the present month, I informed this House tlu~t before further Supply would be re­<lUI red I hoped to be in a position to bring down the Budget. The policy of the Go­YCrllment is not sufficiently advanced to illtroduce the Budget ilext week, but I have definitelv decided that it will be delivered on ;1' before the 14th October. The Supply already granted by Parlia­ment expires at the end of the month, tllld the first payment of salaries will be made on 3rd October. Therefore, I am submitting unother Supply Bill this evening to enable those payments to be made. As I have informed honorable mem bers on previous occasions when sub­~itting ~ills of this nature, pending the llltroductIOn of the Budget no provision is made in the Supply for any conten­tious item of expenditure. The estimated requirement for the month is based upon the actual expenditure of last year. The Supply now asked for and already ob­tained on account of the present year amounts to £5,309,000, and, as compared

, with the actual e:xpend~ture last year, is more than the proportIOnate amount by £~98,000, . one-third of last year's expen­dIture bemg £5,111,000. The principal votes for which Supply is in excess of last year's expellditure are as follow:­Division 10-0hief Secretary's Office Pensions. This vote exceeds the prop 01'­~ion for the four months by £12,000, and 18 due to the amount voted to meet the (le:6.ciency in the Police Superannuation Fund being required in the first half of the :financial year. The contribution from the Licensing Fund will not be available until December. Division 33

.-Education salaries-is in excess by £22,000. This is principally on account

of statutory increments to lC'achers and expansion of educational actIvItIeS. Division 37-Education J~l1dovvments and Grants is in excess by £19,000. Grants to tcchnical schools account for this l1lcrease. They are paid quarterly in advance, thereforc provision must be made in October for the payments due for the. quarter ending 31st Dccember next. Division 52-Income Tax-ex­ceeds the proportion by £10,000. This is due to the amalgamation of the taxation offic~s, but the. extra expenditure is only reqUIred pendmg recoup by the Oom­ll1.011wealth of its proportion of the cost of the amalgamated officc. Division 82 --Agriculture. Provision for the l\f~:ffra. ~e~t Sugar Factory is made under thIS DIVISIOn, and the proportion is ex­ceeded by £7,000. The late season held ?ack ~elivery of beet to the factory, thus Jllvolvmg heavy expenditure in the first months of this financial year. Division ~7--:-Publi~ . ~ealth-is in excess by £9,000. 'IhIs IS due to tho payments in advance to the Infectious Diseases Hos­pital, Fairfield, and to the Heathertoll Sanatorium. . The item Working Ex­penses of the Railways (Division 89) is III exce~s of one-third of last year's actual ~xpendIture by £152,000. This increase IS ~ostly on account of wages and salarIeS, due to the general expansion of the Department in handling the in­creased traffic, resulting of 'course in ad­ditional revenue. The ;mount n01~ asked fO.r will be included in the Appropriation BIll to be submitted later, and I would, therefore, ask honorable members to ex­pedi te the passage of this measure and defer ~iscl!-ssion until the Ap~ propriation BIll IS under consideration.

Sir .A.LEXANDER PEA COCK. --You ha ve been referring to the Appropriation Bill. Do you not mean the Budget?

~fr. PRENDERGAST.-Yes. We ~ope too introduce the Budget on 14th October. Honorable members will have an ?ppo.rtunit;r tht;ln O'f discussing any question III whICh they may be in­te.rested, and .for ~hat reason I hope they wlll allow thIS BIll to pass without any unnecessary de'lay. .

:Mr. ALLAN.-What is the total in­crease, as compared with the same month of la.st year ~

544 Votes on (ASSE~lBL Y .. 1 Account.

1\11'. PRENDERGAST.-As compared with the actual expenditure of last year, £198,000.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I do not intend to delay the passage of the Bill, because I kno,w the Government are anxious that it should go to .anothe.r place, so that necessary payments may be made at the proper time,. I do, however, de­sire to bring under notice one matter of importance. I have re.ceived my Gov'ern­rnent Gazette fO'r Tuesday, 16th Septem­ber.· The GoveJ'nment (}azette is a most interesting document, and I have no doubt you, Mr. Speaker, peruse it, as I do. But I did not know that after the hon­orable member for North 1\1elbourne had received a commission to form a Govern­ment, and had appointed his colleagues, there had been a change in the personne,l of the ~J.Iinistry, of which the House had not been notified. There appears to have been a development I have known nothing about, and that has net been reported to the House. The Gove1'nment Gazette records a meeting of the Execu­tive Council that took IJlace on the 8th September, and the purpose of which was an alteration to regulations under the Land Act 1915. I am sure the honorable member for Rodney is not aware that some of the members of his party have left him, and I was not aware until I saw this record that one' of the most loyal supporters I have has left me and joined tho Government. It would appear also that the Premier has been temporarily displaced, and that owing to some of ~is colleagues not attending Executive Coun­ci] meetings they have had to get the assistance of other members. There is said to have been present at this meeting His Excellency the Administrator of the Government of Victoria, Mr. Hogan, 1\11'. Bailey, Mr. Goudie, Mr, Crockett, and my good and loyal friend Mr. Gordon. This is a new and composite Government, that appears to have been formed with­out any notification of the change having been given to the House. I should have thought that the Premier would advise the House if any necessity had arisen to call for the ach;ice of former Executive Councillors.

Mr. 1\1cADAM.-Somebody should be called to the bar of the House.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Or cai}ed to some other. bar. I' have' been puzzling my mind to ·findont for 'whom :Nfl'. Goudip. might have been· taken, but

I fail to discover any particular resem­blance he bears to any honorable member on the other side of the House. I might say the same of Mr. Crockett. There is a possible explanation for the use of the name " Gordon." It may refer to lVlr. Gordon vVebber-the Webber having been dropped. I do not think that this curious record will affect the validity of the alteration to regulations, because two members of the present Government are shown to have been present, and the record concludes with the statement-

And the Hon. H. S. Bailey (His Majesty's Commissioner 01 Crown Lands and Survey for the State of Victoria) shall give the neces­sary directions herein accordingly

As he is a member of the legal profession, I have no doubt that the Minister of Lallds will discover a way of giving effect to the minute of the Executive CounciL

l\1r. A1JLAN.-I suppose it is neces­sary to pass the Supply Bill, because the salaries of officials have to be paid. I am surprised, however, to find that there is an increase in the amount asked for as compared with the corresponding month of last year of £198,000. This I regard as somewhat serious. If we go on at the same rate I shall expect to find in the Budget some surprises in the way of taxa­tion. I do notpropO'se to offer any objec­tion to the Bill; but I think the P_remier should have made some more definite announcement as to when the Budget wjll be introduced.

1\11'. PRENDERGAsT.-I said on the 14th October.

~Mr. ALL.A .. N.-The honorable gent1e­man told us on a former occasion that he would be ready to deliver the Budget 8pecch before the month was out.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-I did; and it. was. not the first time that a mistake of the kind had been made by a Treasurer.

Mr. ALLllli .-Other Treasurers may have made mistakes. bu.t I did not ex­pect that he would follo'w their ex­ample. I rose, however, to call atten­tion to one particular matter. S'ome time ago I read a letter from a blacksmith in my own electorate, and I intend to' read

'now another letter. I \vant some expla­. nation from the Minister of Labour as to why the F'arriers Board has. been ex­tended to the country districts. I find

. that- . The hours are, 44 per week; wages 110s.

The time of, beginning work, 6.30; a.m., end­ing on Saturday' at 8.30 a.m:·; Monday, Tues-

Voles on [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Account. 545

day, Wednesday, and Thursday, at 5 p.m.; Friday, 4 p.m. If a farrier works between 8.30 and 9.30 a.m. he must be paid double time; later than 9.30 a.m. and earlier than 0.30 a.m., treble time.

I do not object to these boards being appointed in the city of Melbourne, but: we do not want to have them extended to the country districts. As honorable members know, Saturday is a busy day. Even where the Saturday holiday exists it j;3 a busy morning, and whell the half­holiday is on vVednesday, or any other day than Saturday, the E'aturday after­noon is very fully occupied. If a farrier works between 8.30 and 9.30 a.m. he must be paid double time, and ~.tter than 9.30 a.m. and earlier than 6.30 a.m., treble time. That is quite ~nfair. I have a letter from the ~1:ooroopna Hos­pital saying that the determination of the Hospital Attendants Board has been ex­tended to country hospitals as from the 18th August last, and that the wages of the wardsmen ill the Mooroopna Hospital will go up from 45s. to 84s. per week. Thnt is a very considerable rise. It is a difficult matter to keep up the country hospitals at the present time, and it is going to be still more difficult if wages are increased to that extent. I have also a letter from the Echuca Borough Oouncil saying that the council has been infor~ed that the Government proposes to grant a State-wide wages award in respect of gas workers. The Government are ex­tending the Wages Board determination in the case of farriers to the country dis­tricts, they are extending the Hospital Board's determination to the country districts, aud they arc extending the Gas Workers' Board's determination to the country districts. I wish to pro~ test against the extension of these determinations. Why do the Go­vernment not appoint Country \Vages Boards to look after country in­tcrests? The conditions in the country arc very different from the conditions in the city. Wages Boards fix the hoUl's during which work shall be carried out. In the case of a butter factory in sum­mer the heat makes it necessary that the m'eam should be brought in in the even­lng, and the Wages Board determination compels the payment of double time to the employers after 5 p.m. There has been no difficulty in the past in respect of the 'wheelwrights and farriers, nor has

r29]

there been any difficulty in regard to the butter factories. The employers have always been able to come to an under­standing with their employees as to the hours of work. It is not desired that the hours should be longer than are prescribed by the Wages Boards, but the employers cedainly desire to have such hours fixed as will enable their customers to have their work carried out when they come into town without double time having to be paid to the employees. In one case, after a certain hour, treble time has ;;0 be paid.· The extension of determinations to the country simply means that the cost of horse-shoeing and other things will go up very considerably. lH present I under­stand it costs 9s. to have a light horse shod, and 12s. to have a heavy horse shod. Under the new conditions the cost will certainly rise considerably. I am sorry the Minister of Labour is not present.

~{r. PREXDERGAsT.-He is very ill.

1\11'. ALLAN.-I complained to the De­partment about what had been done in respect to. the farriers about a week ago, and I have had no reply of any kind. They do not seem to treat a request from a country district with any marked degree of respect.

lib. LIND.-They are going to kill the trade they are attempting to help, because it means that people will be forced to shoe their own horses.

111'. ALLAN.-I suppose people will shoe their own horses, and very likely country blacksmiths and others will be forced to come to Melbourne. There is no doubt that the action of the Go·vernment will make for centralization. I under­stand that the countrv farriers have had a meeting in the city 'this week regarding this matter. I hope the ~1:inister will agree to Ivithhold the extension of the Wages Board's determination. There is no dispute of any kind in the country shops. The employees are quite satisfied, and so are the employers. Previous Go­vernments have allo'wed them to carryon, and have not extended Wages Boards' de­terminations to the country districts. So far as the blacksmjths are concerned, there is no doubt that the wages in the country are practically the same as in the city, be­cause you cannot get a blacksmith unless you pay him the fixed wages. The hours

546 Voles on [ASSEMBLY.1 Account.

should certainly be regulated so as to suit the customers in the ·country. Before the debate closes I hope 'Some statement will be' made by the Premier with reO'arcl to th~ ex~ension to the country of th~ deter­~matlOns of the Boards relating to hos­pItal attendants, farriers, and gas workers.

Mr. COTTER.-There 'is one little ma~ter I desire to ,bring under th(~ notlCe of the Premier. At present State pensioners are paid monthly, whereas Commonwealth pensioners are paid fortnightly. I think if the Government were to giye a little consideration to the matter they would be able to. provide f~r the fortnightly pay­mentof State pensIOns. The Premier will re~lize the ~ifficulty that public service, ~aIlway servICe, and police pensioners are Jll through having to wait until the end of a month for the payment of their pensions. When requests have been made for fort­nightly payments there has been the usual st~reotyped .r~~ly of red-tapeism. It is saId that addItIOnal work and additional expense would be involved. When we were on the other (Opposition) side of the House we had t~ put up a fight for many years for fortlllghtly payments to I' ail­'Vmy men and public servants. We were told it could not be done without increas­jng the staff and involving additional ex­pense,but the time came when the Go­vernment did it. I think the Government could just as easily pay its pensioners fortnightly. The Commonwealth Govern­:n:ent finds no. difficulty in paying its pen­SIOners fortlllghtly. Some of the State pensioners, who went out of the Service before salaries were increased are re­ceiving shockingly :small pensio~s. There does not seem to be any good reason why t~e ,Govornm~nt should not pay the pen­SlOnm's fortlllghtly. It would be a great boon to them. I asked the ex-Premier to do this, and he said he was looking into the matter and getting some reports. We know that his Government were con­stantly looking into mattem, and get­ting reports, 'but nothing was done. I trust that the present Government will not only look into the matter but concede the request I have made.

Mr. McDONALD (Polwarth).-I also desire to enter my emphatic protest against the extension of the determina-

tions of city Wages Boards to the country districts, and I do so particularly on b~­half of the farriers. I have had several letters from farriers in various parts of my electorate pointing out that the hours fixed are altogether unsuitable. The hour's fixed for Saturday morning are from 6.30 to 8.30, and as most of the work comes in from the farmers in the surroundinO' dis­tricts the farriers find that it is i~pos­sible to carry out the work hetween those hours. One farrier who employs two men and is paying more than the wages fixed in the determination told me that he would have to get rid of one of his men, and do whatever work he could himself, becaus~, although he would have to pay the men for the Saturday morning, there ,vould be no work for them to do. We saw in the press that the Minister of Labour by one stroke of the pen, had extended th~ determination of the Board to the whole of the country districts, 'and that has caused chaos in the tr'ade. These men would not protest unless there were some reason for their doing so. Even on week days the hour of closing varies. Some­times it is 4.30 p.m., and .sometimes 5 p.m. The hours fixed in the determina­tion are altogether unsuitable for the ~ountry districts. I waited on the Secretary for Labour, and he toJd me that a conference was being con­vened for the purpose of dealing with the matter. I understand that there has been :t conference, but there has beon' no ro­(11'es8. These people are still suffering from the Minister's stroke of the pen, which brought about a revolution in the hours of working in country farriers' shops. I t.rust that before the Supply Bill goes through we shall be informed by the Government that the determina­tion of the Farriers Board will not be applied to country districts.

Mr. BROWNBILL.~First of all I desire to draw attention to the fact that in item No. 27 of the Votes on Account mention is still made of the" Neglected Oh.ildren's Department." As honorable members know, the House decided to alteJ,' the name of the Department to the" Chil­dren's Welfare Department." I hope that this will be the last time we shall see the old name given in connexion with a vote. My object in rising was really to refer to the question of the electrification

Voles on [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Account. 547

of railways. We know perfectly well that the electrification of the metropolitan lines is just about finished, and that Melbourne is practically a smokeless city as far as the railways are concerned. It cost millions of pounds to electrify the suburban lines, but it has resulted in a faster and better service. J\lIembers from the country do not raise any objection to the electrificatiqp. of ·the railways in the metropolitan area. Some time ago, however, the promise was made that the work of electrification would be extended to country lines. Now, I know of no better line on which to make a start than that J:unning from Melbourne to Geelong, and thence to the wealthy Western District. Already that railway is electrified as far as Newport. No engineering difficulties would be encountered, because the way 13 almost as level as a bowling green. If the line were duplicated and electrified a grea t service could be provided. There are probably honorable members who do not realize the large amount of traffic there already is on the line. On any Saturday in the football season there may be nine or tell big passenger trains running between :Melbourne and Geelong, and they are ofteu hung up because of the goods traffic. When the honorable member for Swim Hill 'v;ras Minister of Raihvays he was waited upon by an important deputation, at which members from all sides. of the ]~se wer0 present as well as many lead­ing citizens. The question of electrifying country lines was placed before him, and he promised to refer the matter to the Hailways Oommissioners and see what could be done in the' way of making a start with electrification outside the city. 'Vhen the honorable member for St. Rilda l,ecame Minister of 'Railways the matter 'was also brought under his notice, and he said that the Oommissioners were con­sidering it. I also waited on the present Minister when he was appointed. I be­lieve the Oommissioners are still con­sidering the question, but up to the pres­(lnt we have not been able to get any. report from them. I do not know whethel' it would be necessary to have a supply of current at the other end, but, if so, I would point out that there is plenty of power available at Geelong. At present current is sent to Portarlington, Barwoll Heads, and Winchelsea, and right down

to Warrnambool. All those places are illu­minated from the works at Geelong. The current is sent 125 miles, the longest stretch in Victoria or in l~ustralia at the present time. I should like to know whether the Government have yet l'e­ceived a report from the Railways Oom­missioners, and, if so, whether they will take any action in connexion with it. Nothing more in the way of electrification can be done to the metropolitan railways, and the present Governinent have said that they would consider the extension of this splendid system to the country. 1. should like to plead with the Minister of Railways to get a reply from the Rail-· ways Oommissioners, and also see whether it is not possible to refer the questiOIl of electrifying the railway to Geelong and the vVestern Dibtrict, and probably some others, to the Railways Standing Committee. Whatever the Railways Standing Oommittee recommended we would be prepared to accept. We know perfectly well that the line to Geelong righ t on to the Western District is one of the best and most profitable in this State, so that I hope the Minister will give immediate attention to the matter.

:Mr. A. lL BILLSON (Ovens).-I have been asked by residents of the N orth­Eastern District to bring a matter under the notice of the Minister of RailwaYfl. It relates to what are known as school excursions that are carried out annuallv. Committees are formed in various centr~s of population and by dint of much labour and advertising children from various schools are at much expense taken fr01l1 one district to another. In connexion with these excursion trains the Railwavs Oommissioners, as honorable member.s a~'e uware, ask for a guarantee. Oertain persons have to guarantee the esti­mated cost of a train. If there is any loss on an excursion the guarantors have to pay it. If there is any profit the Oom­missioners retain all except 10 per cent., which they hand back to the committee. It is pointed out that higher fares havo been charged of recent years, and that the guarantee has been increased by nearly .20 per cent., but the Oommissioners still return only 10 per cent. of any profits. When I was resident in Beechworth I t~ok an active part in promoting these excursions, and 1 know that they are of

548 Votes on [ASSEMBLY. ] Account.

great educational value, because they a.lfoJ.'tl an. 0ppormnity to the childI;en of poor parents to see other parts of the State which tbey would otherwise have no chance of visiting. Oonsidering the expense the committees have to go to they think that they are entitled, when there are any profits on these excursions, to 25 per cent. instead of 10 per cent. That is the request which I desire to prefer now. They give three illustrations. In 1923 there was a trip to Wahgunyah. The guarantee asked for was £46 16s.; the revenue £130 18s. 10d.; the return to the committee £12 15s. 2d., and the expendi­ture by the committee £14 6s. 11d. In 1922 they entered on a large undertaking to bring the children from a11 the schoQls surrounding Bright to Melbourne. The guarantee then asked for was £115 19s. 4d. The revenue derived from the excursion was £359 3s. 10d. The return to the committee was only £35 18's. 5d. The ex­penditure was £30 4s. 10d. In 1921, the excursion was from Bright to Rutherglen. The guarantee asked for by the Hailways Oommissioners was £43 16s. 10d.; the re­venue was £89 19s. 7 d., and the return to the committee £9 Os. 2d., the expendi­ture being £15 lOs. 6d. A similar posi­tion has occurred on a number of occa­sions. In vim'v of the fact that these ex­cursions are educational in value, and many of the children have poor parents, and would be unable to see any other part of V ictoria except in this way, more consideration should be extended by the Oommissioners to the committees undertaking these excursions. They ought to recognize the splendid work done by the committees, and the fact that indi­vidual members haye to give a personal guarantee against loss. In the circum­stances, the Oommissioners should be willing to allow a larger proportion than 10 per cent. out of the profits.. I was asked to bring this ma tter before the House, and I have taken the earliest op­portunuity of doing so. I have noticed tha t the Premier has been taking notes of this complaint, and I hope he will hand them to the Minister of Railways, so that some relief will be obtained.

Mr. JEWELL.-I want to bring under the notice of the Premier the attitude of the Masseurs Board, appointed by Act of Parliament, towards a resident in my

electorate who applied for registration as a masseur. When this man first intimat~d that he intended to apply for registration, he was told that he had no chance. How­ever, he filled in an application form, and ,\-vas called before the Board. I have no

. hesitation in saying that his qualifica­tions are equal to those of 80 per cent. of the masseurs who have been registered by this Board. It is provided in paragraph (b) of section' 7 of the Masseurs' Hegis­tra tion Act that the Board shall register ail applicant if it is satisfied that, at the commencement of the Act, he had for at least three years been engaged in tb,e bona fide practice of massage in Victoria, or any other part of the Oommonwealth. As a matter of fact, this man has been engaged in this calling for fifteen years. The Act also provides that applicants must submit two certificates of character, and at least one certificate from a doctor to show that they have been practising for three veal'S before the commencement of the A;t. The man I am referring to not only supplied the certificates of character, but certificates from three different doc­tors, who certified to the fact that he bad been practising massage for three years before the commencement of the Act. This man was called to appear before the Board, and after waiting for some time, he was called upon to again present him­self. Acting upon advice, he did not then attend, but when he was called the third time, he presented himself for' ex­amination. He was asked if he were doing any other work besides that· of mas­saging. He replied that he was engaged at a theatre at night-time, and did a little bit of painting in the country to supplement his income. BecaUSe this man engaged in work as I have indicated the Board refused him a certificate. This Board has registered men who have only sent in two certificates from doctors and two testimonials as to character, but haye never been called upon to appear before the Board. Yet here is a man who has more than the qualifications required by the Act and who is refused registration. I do not understand how it is that this man was told at quite an early stage in the proceedings that he would not be regis­tered. The Board apparently had some bias against this man, whose name is Saunders. He is one of the finest men I

Votes on [24 SEPTE~IBER, 1924.] Account. 549

know. A very respectable citizen, and yet because he does other work he is tm'ned down by the :Soard. If that is the way this Board is going to carryon its 'work, the sooner it is abolished the better. I do not know that the Premier can do anything with a Board appointed under an Act of Parliament, but I hope that something will be done to 'see that the Act is carried out without fear or favour. I cio not kno,w if this man in tends to make another application or not, but if he does, and is still refused, I hope this Board will soon be done away with.

Mr. WEST.-There are one or two matters to which I should like to refer. One is in relation to the destruction of noxious weeds. I want to emphasize the necessity for greater efforts being made; for the eradication of rag-wort. In certain portions of Gippsland this weed is spread­ing rapidly, and is becoming a serious menace to the land-holders in the district. Two years ago we passed an Act trans­ferring the responsibility of dealing with noxious weeds from municipalities to the Crown. The municipalities agreed readily to that transference, because they were not carrying out that wqrk $atisfactorily, and it was felt that, under Government administration, the work could be done more effectively. :For twelve months this work has been carried out by the Lands Department, and there certainly has been an improvement over conditions which existed previously, but, while that is so, the improvement does not go far enough, and very much more needs to be done be­fore the provision is satisfactory. I am not making any complaint in regard to the administration of this Act as far as it has gone, but we want a great deal more done, and that means that more money must be provided for the eradication of weeds. The object of my. speaking to­night is to induce the. Treasurer to make more money available on the Estimates for this particular work. Last year £70,000 was provided for the administra­tion of this Act, which covers the destruc­tion of vermin and noxious weeds. J n the votes now befo1'.e us, £7,000 is pro­vided for the next month. Out of the total appropriation, the salaries of about 100 inspectors have to be paid. I suppose they get about £300 a year each, ~Nd that takes £30,000. Then there are

other officers whose salaries and expenses would come to about the same amount, so that very little is left out of the annual appropriation for the eradication of weeds. A good deal of the money avail­able has been spent in dealing with St. John's wort in the Bright district. That is very necessary work; but while atten­tion is being paid to that particular pest, those in other parts of the State are being neglected. As the result of the spread of rag-wort in the Gippsland district, land has greatly depreciated in value. The settlers there have enough trouble now in dealing with bracken and rabbits, and they do not want rag-wort to be added to their difficulties if they can help it. I ask the Minister of Lands to see that vigorous efforts are made to eradicate this weed before it gets out of control, as St. John's wort has. We know the lo-sses that have been occasioned by St. John's wad being allowed to get out of cont.rol, and vve do not want the experience in that connexion to be repeated in Gippsland. Therefore,_ I hope the Minister will make special efforts to deal 'with this pest, 'which is growing, not onlv on private lands, but on Orown land;. .A. number of blocks belonging to the Closer Settlement Board arc badly infected, and the weeds are spreading from them all over the place. If the Department does star,t to eradicate the weeds, it will be up against the difficulty that some of the settlers are not in a position to bear the whole of the expel1se that will be entailed. Still, the "\\'ork 'will haye to be done. I think the Department will have to step in, do the work, make it a charge on the land, and collect its dues 'as soon after as possible. I hope the ll!Iinister will see that every effort is made to keep the weed in check. If it gets out of control, immense damage will result. I now wish to refer to a HI.atter in connexion with the Dairy Supervision Act. I ask that this Act shall be applied without delay to the whole Stat(~. At present it is only ap­plied ,to certain sections of the State. \Vhen the Act. was introduced its ap­plicatieJlL was limited, because there were not sufficient supervisors to go all round. That objection no longer applies. There are many qualified men now available, 9!.d the Act can be operated all over the

550 Votes on [ASSEMBLY. 1 Account.

country. Seeeing that the dairying in­dustry is one of the most important of our primary industries, it is important that the Government should do every­thing it can to bring i.t to the highest level and to give the best return to those engaged in it. When good practical men are appointed, as is already the case in a number of instances, they are of great service to dairymen, and their services are much appreciated. Before passing away from this subject, I may state that the dairy supervisors complain of the paucity of their salaries. The present Flalaries range from a minimum of £211 to a maximum of £265. The ·supervisors ask that the salary be increased to a minimum of £250. When we consider the responsible nature of the duties that these men ·carry out, their request is a very reasona ble one. I hope that whoever has charge of the classifica­tion of these men will see to it that their request is granted. They do a great deal in the interests of the maintenance of the dairying industry, and they are well worth the money they are asking. I now wish to touch upon a matter already re­ferred t(J by previous speakers-the ex­tension of the Farriers Bo·ard to country districts. I have had complaints from one end of my electorate to the other. r ndeed, there have been complaints from one end of the State to the other. The conditions of the award are inapplicable to country areas. It was drawn up by a eity Board to suit city conditions, and while it may be appropriate for the city it is unworkable in country areas. I should like to know how it came about that this award was applied to the coun­try. No application for such extension wa.s made either by employers or em­ployees. No notice was given. These men suddenly woke up 'and found this impossible award applied to them. I had a number of interviews with the Minister of Labour, who, I am sorry is absent through illness. }\.. conference was held this morning, and arising out of that I introduced a deputation to the Secretary of Labour. A formal request was made for the establishment of a country Wages Board as quickly as pos­sible, in order that the present impossihle award might be done away with and an award suitable to country conditions be

Mr. West.

framed. I hope that this llltatter will be· expedited. I ·also ask the Goverument to see that awards of. this character are not applied to. country districts without some notice being given. In this particular­case nobody in the country knew any­thing about it until the thing was done. I should like to know on what representa­tions the award was extended to the country.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-The extension to count.ry districts was asked for on several OCCaSlOl1S.

!1r. WEST.-By whom? There is an association of employers in the country, and they heard nothing about it.

Mr. PRENDERGAs'l'.-I know that some employers in the country have appealed f or the extension.

Mr. WEST.-I should like to know who they are. The employers as an as­sociation knew nothing about it. How­ever, we are asking that this country .Board be established as quickly as pos­sible.

:M1'. BOND.-I should like to take this opportunity of bringing under the notice .of the Minister of Hailways the inadequate service on the Hamilton­Coleraine railway line. Ooleraine isa centre of rich pastoral and agricultural country. It has a population in the vicinity of 1,500, including about 200 closer settlers. N ow, on that line there is at present a four days' service-Mon­day, Wednesday, Thursday, and Satur­day. On Tuesday and Frid.ay there are no trains. This causes a great deal of inconvenience to the people of the dis­trict, and I think the Government will agree with me that they deserve some consideration. In times gone by, when the area around Ooleraine comprised large estates, there was a much better railway service. They had a six-days" service, and on some days two trains. I cannot ·conceive why to-day the service should be cut down to four trains a ·week. Goods are brought from Melbourne t() Hamilton, but when there is no train they have to remain at Hamilton until the following day. Similarly, passengers have to wait in Hamilton, and this causes m:uch inconvenience. I feel sure that in the near future, as a result of the nresent inconvenience, a motor service 'between Ooleraine and Hamilton will be

Yote~ on L24 SEPTEMBER, lU24.J Account. 551

established. This will have a serious effect on the amount of goods passing over that line. I am sure none of U3

wish to see that state of things COllie about. The Hamilton stock sale is held on Friday. Many of the Ooleraine peo­ple who wish to visit Hamilton have to do so by car, as there is no train on that clay. Any purchases they may make at the stock sales at Hamilton have to be conveyed to Ooleraine by road. If there were a daily train the service would be greatly increased all over that line. The question of working expenses may crop up, but I would point ,out that the cost of running two extra trains weekly need not 1>0 very great. At the present time the staff is not fully occupied. The men en­gaged in runnillg the train could work their ,six days, and, I understand, put in their time without overtime being in­volved. Practically, the Department would incur 110 further expense. The matter, therefore, boils itself down to a <Iuestion of coal, oil, and depreciation of stock. That would not amount to very much. The people of that dis­trict should receive some consideration. ]f this matter il3 given attention and .relief is afforded, I feel sure that the people of the district vvill be greatly bene­fited, and that, in the spring and summer months, there will be a greatly increased passenger service, and also an increase in the quantity of goods -carried over the

,line. I appeal to the liinister to do what he can to improve the position.

l1:r. WETTENHALL.-I desire to call attention to what I regard as a serious matter, for which the Minister of Public J nstruction must be to some extent respon­sible. If the case is not one of extremity, that is what it, is rapidly becoming. I refer to the elementary school at Hor­sham. It is now practically full. This was unexpected, as it is not quite twelve months since an extension was provided for affording extra accommodation for infants. I am proud to say that the town is developing very rapidly, and the ameni­ties of the town are such that a number of people are taking up their residence there, the result being a considerable in­crease in population. The elementary school is nearly full, and very soon extra accommodation will have to be provided for. The high school is the principal

source of trouble, and this is the matter to which I desire the lVIinister of Public Instruction to give immediate atten­tion, Every condition that was im­posed by the then Minister of P'ublic Instruction, in February last. has been fulfilled b'y the residents. They are finding £5,000 in cash, and they have purcha'sed 10 acres of ground, which they have planted with trees. The Minister of the da'y promised that a new school would be erected. I know that he gave instruc­tions that plans should be prepared and tenders called for alternative constructiolt. That occurred some six months ago, and we have heard from time to time that the plans were being drawn up. This high school project has commended itself very highly to the people of the district. The present building, which is overcrow'ded, is in a very dilapidated 'condition, plaster falling off the walls, and it is certainly not a credit to the State. The residents of the town and district have not made very many complaints, because they are in hopes that the new high ,school will be erected. The conditions under which secondary or higher education is at pre­sent being conducted are not only unsatis­factory, but disgraceful. We desire to be reasonable-and I think the residents of IIorsham are distinctly so-but their patience will be worn out if much further delay is allowed to occur. I venture to say that when the hot weather comes the conditions. which at present exist will be found to be altogether intolerable. I want, in the most courteous manner pos­sible, to ask that the matter be expedited, so that before the hot weather does come some relief may 'be afforded to the chil­dren in the elementary and higher elemen­tary schools. There is another matter to "ivhich I desire to can attention, and that I also regard as serious. It has reference to the married men in the Public Service. The school teachers, particularly, are un­able to get residences in the town. The head teacher in the elementary school, who has won the' commendation of scholars and parents alike, has had to move three times in twelve months. He finds a house, hut 110 sooner is he settled in it than ·it is sold over his head, and he has to go out. The last time I "i~'as at Horsham he had no home at all. That is not a condition of -affairs that should be allowed to exist.

552 VI),'C~ O'J/, L ASSE~IBl.l. J Account.

Where there is an insufficiency of houses I think it is the duty of the State to see that proper quarters are provided for its servants.

Mr. HUGHES.-I-Iow long have these cOllditions existed?

}III'. vVETTENHALL.-They have he en getting worse all the time. I hope that the }.1:iniRter of Public In­struction will give the matter his serious attention, because the trouble is acute. There is only one other matter, and it is of a similar nature, that I desire to bring under notice. It has reference to the Dimboola police station. Promises have been made and plans drawn for improved police quarters. The present police station has been a scandal, and a disgrace for years, and al­ready one sergeant has declined to live there. We should not subject members of OUr Police Force to conditions that are Ull­just and unfair. I trust the Minister will set' that the preparation of the plans ancl the crec60n of the high school at Hor­sham and the Hew police station at Dim­hoola will be expedited as much as pos­sible.

:Mr. JA.OKSON.-Some time ago the people of Prahran were under the im­pression that a high school was to be built at }""Iorest Hill, South Yarra, and that within a very short time the work would be proceeded with. :N othing, how­ever, has been done, but the ground has been transferred to the Education Depart­ment, and I believe that the plans have been irawn up.

Sir Jl.r .. EXANDER PEAcocK.-I saw the plans in the office of the chief inspector of secondary schools last week.

~1r. J AOKSON.-I understand that the plans have been prepared. The ques­tion now is probably one of money, and I do not know whether that is going to be a stumbling block. I hope not. There can be no question as to the necessity of the hiQ'h school, and the site that has been s~lected is an ideal one. The Oity Oouncil of Prahran are spending a large sum of money in endeavouring to im­prove the ground which they have given for this purpose. I do not think the co~n­cil should be expected to go on spendlllg money unless they are definitely informed that the work is to be proceeded with, an~ I would like to get from the Minister a satisfactory statement on the subject.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-There are one or two matters that I desire to bring under the notice of the Attorney-General and the Minister of Railways. Before doing so I wish to supplement what has been said by one honorable member as to the payment of pensions. He advocated a fortnightly payment, but that might in­volve a considerable amount of expense. One pensioner has suggested to me that, instead of the pensioners having to attend at the O'ffice for payment, the money should be deposited to their credit in any bank in which they have an account.

Mr. Pu,ENDERGAsT.-The Bill we passed to-night will afford relief in that matter.

"Mr. EGGLESTON.-I am glad to hear it. There are several things the lH­torney-General might do that the legal profession are interested in, and by helping them he will also help the public to a considerable extent. I mention one of them because reference is made to it in the Premier's policy speech. That is the extension of the Titles Office, which is absolutely necessary. Before I left office orders were given that the plans should be gone on wit1. It will mean the expenditure of a certain amount of money, but that money will be well spent, and by its 8xpenditure a great deal of accommodation can be provided. A small expenditure will provide for the exten­sions in the Titles Office that are neces­sary ~or its proper working, and in the same block, which is a magnificent block, accommodation can be provided for other officers, especially those connected with legal matters. It is proposed to erect c1

new building for the Income Tax Office. r suggest that it could be better accom­modated in the new Titles Office building. I hope this matter will be borne in mind ·"i.-hen the Government are considering what public works they will indulge in during the coming year. There is on8 act of the late Attorney-General that I think has operated very harshly on mem­hers of the legal profession. That was his decision that there should be only one Oourt day per week in each suburb, and that as O'ften as possible a police magis­trate should a,ttend the Court. As I have said, that has operated very harshly on the­legal profession. It means that a week's cases have to be tried in one Oourt on one day. The result is that practitioners

v'oles on [24 SEPTEl\IBER, 1924.J Account. 55:>

who have cases that involve about a guinea costs have frequently to wait from 10 o'clock in the morning until 6 or half­past 6 at night. It also operates very harshly on the members of the Court, and I would suggest that there should he more police magistrates appointed-I think there is a strong case for that-or that the former practice of having two Court days a week in populous suburbs should be reverted to. There is another very important reform that the Attorney­General could get a good deal of credit by bringing in, and that is relieving the police frpm the service of summonses and tho execution of warrants. I do not think it would cost very much if all that work were dono by bailiffs in the same way as the work is done by the Oounty Oourt bailiff. There is only one Oounty Oourt bailiff and a small staff. They serve tht\ ",,,hole of the summonses for tho Oount\' Court and execute the whole of the wal:" rants. Oertainly the time of the Oounty Oourt bailiff is Y~ry much occupied, but I think a· similar practice might be adopted in respect. of the sum­monses and warrant.s I have referred to. rt might involve the employment of '30 men for the metropolitan area, but I am quite certain that very great relief would be gi yell to the police, and local ' constables ,,".ould be enabled to do much more of their proper work-the prevention of crime and tho patrolling of tho streets-than they are able to do at the present time. Tht.':l other work is not work for which thev are so well fitted. It involves the writing of many reports, and means that C01l­stables, instead of being able to do their proper work, have much of their time occupied in clerical ,vorle

Mr. WARDE.-They have managed to get through the work fairly satisfactorily through all these years.

l'IIr. EGGLESTON.-They have donn this work satisfactorily, and have left their other work nndolLe.

Mr. WARDE.-There 'are a lot of good penmen in the Force.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I do not suggest that they are not capable of doing the clerical work. They are capable of doing it, but I certainly think a clerical staff would be able to do the work more efficiently and more quickly, and would relieve the police of a great deal of work

[30]

with which their time should not be taken up. There is one matter I should like to bring under the notice of the Minister of Agriculture. I would sound a note of warning in connexion with the Maffra beet sugar proposition. I do not suggest that I am going to deal with the growing of beet or the making of sugar from a technical point of view, but I would point out that, as with other primary pro­ducts, there is a danger of our not being able to find markets for sugar made from beet. I quite admit that the late Govern­ment had ideas with respect to extending the ~affra, beet sugar factory, but I think the question of marketing the sugar pro­duced there should be carefully con­sidered. Otherwise a glut of sugar might be created in the Oommonwealth, and the men induced to settle on the land nt }.{affra might find themselves not in as good a position as they hoped to be. As n matter of fact, the production of sugar in Queensland is frequently above the

. local consumption of sugar. It has been published in the newspapers that this season there is an over-production of sugar in Queensland amounting til n bout 30,000 tons. The extension (If sugar-gl'ov .. 'illg' land in Queensland is going on at u very rapid rate, and a good deal of immigration is coming in for the purpose of opening up new lands in that State. The Queensland Government i8 building new factories, and has attempted to extend the industry as much as pos­sible. .....\.bout ten or fifteen years ago, when a Royal Oommission dealt with this particular subject, it foresu'w the diffi­culty and tried to get Victoria not to enter into the sugar industry at all. We would not agree to that. It must he realized that the cost of producing sugar is such that we cannot sell at a profit i,n any foreign market the sugar we produce in Australia. Java sugar can compete with our sugar every time. I do not say the Minister should hold his hand, but he should consider the matter very care­fully before going to further expense.

An HONORABLE MEMBER.-Surely Vic­toria can supply herself with sugar.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-Under the 00n1-monwealth law we cannot prevent Queen~­land sugar coming into Victoria. The Aust.ralian market will be dealt with as a whole. It may be that the Minister of

Votes on ~ ASSE1\fHL Y .1 Account.

Agriculture will be able to say that sugar can be produced at Maffra more cheaply than in Queensland, and that we .can Ull­

dersell the Queensland sugar. If that is the case, well and good.

Mr. WARDE.-Is there any reason "\vhy Leet sugar should not be produced as cheaply in Victoria as cane sugar in Queensland?

:111'. EGGLESTON.-I do not know. If that is the case we are on good ground, but if not we may be up against similar problems in respect to the beet, sugar in­dustry as in respect to other primary industries.

Mr. HOGAN.-The beet sugar industry is very successfully established in America.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-As a matter (If fact, all over the world beet sugar is com­peting with cane sugar.

Mr. ·WEsT.-The growers say they arc not afraid of the cane production.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The only other' question to which I wish to refer is the question of merit increases in the Rail­way Department and benefits given fO men who have nroved themselves capable of 'increased production. When I was in office I received a deput·ation from the railway employees' unions asking me to forbid the Oommissioners establish­ing the' merit system. There are various phases of it which I shall describe in a minute or two. The deputation asked me to stop the system. I refused to do that, but I promised that the Railways Commissioners would carry out the undee­taking they had already given that tht! merit system would be entirely voluntary, [lnd that no case of victimization would happen with regard to any man who was flsked to undertake the system and re­fused to do so. I made exhaustive in-0"ulries and was informed-I think, cor­rectly-that no victimization had taken place, except possibly in one instance, in which a local manager penalized a man, but not deliberately. The Commissioners thought that the man had been penalize:d indirectly, and they rectifie,d that, case. I pointed out to the members of the depu­tation that, in my opinion, they them­selves were guilty of a certain amount of yictimization if they carried out the policy that they said was in contempla­tion of exercising a good deal of moral

,suasion-that is a euphemism-oll the men. I was informed tha.t this sort of argument was being used against the bonus system-

HER];~ IS YOUR, EXECUTIVE'S ADVICE.

Don't allow this iniquitous system to get a foot-holc1 in Victoria !by your acceptance of the bonus.

Don't be bribed, for a.ttempts are and will be made to do so.

Don't allow the ofrer of a few pounds to rob you of your manhood.,

Don't believe that the management is giving you mOlley because of their philanthropic spirit.

Don't believe that they won't get it out of you again, although you sweat blood.. . Don't you know tha,t, as your production in­creases-if it can, wl1ich we do not believe­your bonus decreases until it disappears en-tirely? '

Don't you know that then the whip will be applied?

Don't you realize that you die a prematu.rc ueath if you accept the bonus .system? Statls­tics prove it.

Don't you understand that, if the Commis­sioners were desirous of granting you a boon, they would approach your executives?

Don't you realize that this is not the spirit of " Help us to help you," lout the "Help us to whip you."

That is the sort of argument being used, and I would nOtt, ha.ve mentioned it if I had not noticed that, at a mass mee,ting of the men, Mr. Keane, the 'president of the union saicl- .

There is a deliberate attempt on the part of the Chairman to compromise the Labour ,party. But we will not be n. party to it. We 'will not make this a party issue, but will kill tlJe system on the job.

",That I want the Minister to say is 'whe­ther he is permitting the system to be killed on the job by a system of persecu­tion of the men who are helping the De- , partment by working on the bonus system. There are two or three forms of that system. One of them is the butty-gang system, where men undertake to work for certain rates voluntarily agreed upon hy them and the Oommissioner.s, and where they have entire control of their work.

Mr. W ARDK-And the rates 'are cut down· if they earn good wages.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-That has not been so in the railways.

]\11'. WARDE.-Yes, in the railways, too. Mr. EGGLESTON.-I say that has

not been the case. I und~rstand that there are no instances in whic)~ the rates have been eut down. Another system is

Votes on [24 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Account: 555

that of extra payments in accordance with extra output. Bonuses are given for that. Then, on the reports of fore­men where specially good work which can~ot be measured in output has been ,done, the men are given bonuses at the end of a quarter or half year. Another ,system i's the giving of prizes for the best. kept lengths of permanent­way. Those systems are o.iJjected. to by the union, but they are bemg earned out by the men. A strong atmosphere of persecution is created ~n .regard to them. The Railways OomnusslOners told me that they were highly ,satisfied 'with the bonus system, that it was producing a great deal of good, and that, although extra pay­ments were made, it was advantageous to the Department, and was really cheaper because of the extra work done for the extra money. 'Vith regard to the butty­gang system, I could never understand what the real objection from the Labour point of view is. The butty-gang system is a system where the status of the wage­earner is really higher than in any other employment. He is doin~ the w?rk in his own way. He orders hIS own tll:r~e as he likes and the jobs are allotted In a species ~f co-operation one wit~ another. Surely the sta tus of a man workmg under a system of that kind is better than that ()f a man simply carrying out the orders of a boss, and doing it in the boss's way every time. I do not like. t~,at phras~, "kill the Isystem on the Job. Does It mean that the union are victimizing the men who petitioned me not to stop the system, and that they are expelling th~m, and talking about blood money, and USIng persecution of that kind against them ~ Is the Minister going to protect the men who are helping the Commissioners by doing more for the Depa~·tment, .and bringing down the cost of raIlway work ~ Those men are serving the State in the way in which the State wishes them to serve it, and I want to know whether the Minister will allow that system to be killed on the job, and permit the men to be victimized in the way in which this phrase of Mr. Keane's suggests that they are being victimized. At a time when we know that there is a severe strain on the railway finances because of increased cost of wages, and because of higher interest, not' to mention the proposed reduc-

tion of freights, I think it is an impor­tant matter and we ought to know , . whether the men who are trymg to serve the Department are being protected, and given a fair deal in the matter.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).­During the discussion, a number of 9-ues~ tions have been referred to. Oertam of them come under the Department of Labour. I should like to ,say that the Minister has been seriously ill, but he has so far improved that I hope that he will be able to take his place in the House llext ·week. I trust that honorable mem­bers who brought up those matters will be patient and wait until the Minister re­turns. The honorable member for Rich­mond, and subsequently th~ honorable member for St. Kilda, referred to the fact that pensioners have r~ot been paid fo:t­nightly. One of the Ireasury officers In­formed me that he thought that fort­nightly payments could be made with­out much expense. If that is the case, I clln promise that it will be done. The honorable member for Geelong referred to the fact that in these votes the Neglected Ohildren's Department has not yet been given its new name of Children's WeHare Department. I would point out to h~m that the Bill only went through the LegIS­lative Council last night. As soon as the Bill is assented to, the new name will be applied. On the question of the electrifi­cation of railways, I can promise the hon­orable member for GeeloIlg that the Min­ister 'willlook into the matter, and let him have a reply. Reference ,vas made by the honorable member for Ovens to the charges of the Railway DepartD.?-ent in connexion with Ichildren's excursion trains. That is also a matter I shall leave to the Minister of Railways. The honorable member for Brunswick referred to an application for registration by. a masseur. That is another matter WhICh will be looked into. The questions raised in connexion with noxious weeds and the extension of the Dairy Supervision Act will be brought under the notice of the Departments concerned. The honorable member for Glenelg referred to the inade­quate service on Ithe Hamilton and Oole­raine railway. The Minister of Rail­ways will deal with that matter. Then the honorable member for Lowan talked about schools in the 'Horsham district,

556 Votes on [ASSEMBLY.] Account.

and the accommodation for married school ,teachers. We have not had an op­portunity of dealing with that matter yet, but we will do so a little more effectively than was the case when the honorable member wa's a member of the Ministry which did not succeed in finalizing it. The honorable member for Prahran re­ferred to the Forest Hill High School, South Yarra. I will bring that matter under the notice of the Minister of Pub­lic Instruction. The honorable member for St. Rilda made reference to the ex­tension of the Titles Office, and to de1ays caused by magistrates sitting in Courts only once a week. He ,complained that poor members of the legal profession were not a ble to earn more than one guinea a day. I will follow the practice that is usually adopted in these matters. lVIembers' complaints will be taken from Hansard and sent to the various Departments, which will forward replies in cases where they have not been already given. I will get replies sent to me and will send the,m on. If there is any delay and honorable members communicate with me, I will, to use the words of a member of another Parliament, send out "~hasers."

Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Railways). --The honorable member for Glenelg re­ferred to the train service between Hamilton and Ooleraine. I happen to be personally conversant with that par­ticular matter, because during the recent election OoJ.eraine was one of the places I visited.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-I suppose you made promises about thn service.

Mr. HOGAN.-I did not. I was at Hamilton and wanted to get to Coler­aine, but could not travel by train be­ca use there was none on the particular day. I had to go to Ooleraine by ulotor and to return to Hamilton by the same means, because of the absence of any train facilities. The honorable member for St. Kilda knows a good deal about this matter, because amongst the records in the Railway Department I saw some notes of repre:;entations that were made to him. He seems to have taken some steps to remedy the matter, but it was Hot finalized.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-Why cannot they run a motor train ~

Mr. HOGAN'.-That is a reasonable suggestion. There are only three trains a week from Hamilton to Coleraine, and the people want extra service, and they particuJ.arly desire 'a train on Fridays from Ooleraine to Hamilton and back, because Friday is the sale day at Hamil­ton. I wiI] bring the matter under the notice of the Railways Commissioners and endeavour to get better arrange­ments made. The honorable member for St. Kilda also referred to the :Maffra Beet Sugar :Factory. I realize the im­portance of that industry. We need not worry about the growers of beet. There is no danger of their being overwhelmed by the cane sugar growers. I am quite satisfied that sugar made from beet can be sold in open competition with sugar obtained in any other way. At' the pre­sent time all the sugar manufactured at MlafIra is sold in the Gippsland district~ and still there is not enough to meet re­quirements. We need have no fear of over-production for some considerable time, at any rate. I think it is a splen­did industry, 'and it is a reasonable thing for the State to enlarge the factory.

:M:r. WEST.-Put up another one.

Mr. HOGA.N. ·--1 would rather see more factories established than interfere in any way with the present output. I regard the beet sugar industry as the most prufitable at the present time for agriculturists in Victoria. Of course, it may not continue always to be so, but I am perfectly satisfied with the position as it is at present. Reference was also made by the honorable member for St. Kilda to the bonus I:lystem in the Rail­way Department. I think he said that when he was Minister of Railways he kept off that question. SO' far as I can see he did not_ take any action. It was not a political matter when the honorable member ,vas in charge of that Depart­ment, and so far as I am concerned it will not be a pollitical matter either. I refuse to 1:>e inv,olved in it, 'and intend to keep as far as I possibly can away from it. I hope that an amicable arrange­ment will be made between the Railways Commissioners and the union. , The motion was agreed to.

The resolution was reported to the House. and adopted.

Ways and 1I1eans. [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Railway Department. 5a7

WAYS AND MEANS. The House resolved itself into a Com­

mitte~ of Ways and Means. Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).­

I move-That towards making good the Supply

granted to His Majesty for the service of the year 1924-5, tht: sum of £1,395,448 be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue of Victoria.

The motion was agreed to, and the resolution was reported to the House.

CONSOLIDATED REVENUE BILL (No.5).

The resolution passed in Committee ot Ways and Means was adopted.

Authority was given to Mr. Prender­gast and Mr. Hogan to introduce a Bill to carry out the resolution.

lVIr. PRENDERGAST (Premier) brought up a Bill "to supply out of the Consolidated Revenue the sum of '£1,395,448, for the service of the year 1924-25," and moved that it be read a first time.

The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a first time and passed through its remaining stages.

ADJOURNMENT.

ORDER OF BUSINESS. Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).-I

move-That the House at its rising adjourn unW

Tuesday next.

The motion was agreed to. Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier) .-1

move-That the House do now adjourn.

The business on Tuesday will be the Cattle Compensation Bill, followed by the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Bill, the Game Bill, the Industrial and Provident Eocieties Bill, the Workers' Compensation Bill, the Gas Regulation Bill, the Electoral Bill, the Opticians Registration Bill, and others. I may state that the Government are anxi10us to get on with the Bills next week. We hope. that the Leader of the Opposition will be prepared to assist us in this mat­ter, and that there will be no further delays.

The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 10.24 p.m.,

until Tuesday, September 30. [31]

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

T'uesday, September 30, 1924.

The PRESIDENT (the Bon., Frank Clarke) took the chair at 4.48 p.m., and read the prayer.

BILLS READ A FIRST TIME.

The following Bills, received from the­Legislative Assembly, were read a first time on the motion of the Hon. J. P. JONES (Minister of Public Works) :-

North Carlton Land Bill. Consolidated Revenue Bin (No.5). Audit Bill.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT.

COST OF NEW STATIONS. The Hon. A. E. CHANDLER asked

the M~nister of Public Works-What is the estimated cost of the proposed

new railway stations, viz., Poath-road, on the Oakleigh line; Dublin-road, at East Ringwood, on the Lilydale line; and Heathmont, on the Fern Tree Gully line; also the amount required by the Railways Commissioners from the resi­dents in each case before the work will be sanctioned.

The Hon. J. P. JONES (Minister of Public vVorks).-I have been supplied by Mr. Clapp, Chairman of the Railways Commissioners, with the following det.ail~ in reply to the honorable member's ques­tion :-

The estimated cost of constructing a station at Poath-road, on the Oakleigh line, is £9,365, towards which the residents were asked to con­tribute £1.000.

The estimated cost of constructing b, 'dtation at Dublin-road. East Ringwood, is £2,239, to­wards which the residents were asked to COJl­

tribute £2,000, which is, however, to be re duced to £1.355. if the residents themselves carry out the earth works. The extra £23!:/ re­presents the cost of extending the platform for longer trains, and is being borne by the De­partment

The estimated cost of constructing a station at Heathmont, on the Fern Tree Gully line, H!

approximately £2,300, the whole of which tile residents ha,ve been asked to contribute. This cost will, however, be reduced if the resident~ themselves carry out the earth works.

A contribution of £1,000 towards the cost of the Poath-road station was considered reason­able, having regard to the extensive develop­ment of the district. In the other two cases, however, the· prospective traffic does not war­rant the erection of a station unless the whole cost is contributed.

~5.B Edenhope-Kanag,ulk [COUNCIL] Ba'll1way'.,

Thee principa1 reasons for the estimated: cost of the Poath-road station being so much 1Il

excess of that of the other two are the neces· sity for providing double plaMorm~ at. the for· mer, while Dublin-road and Re1tthmont require only single platforms, and for making provision at Poath-road for the possible future linking up of the Outer Circle line.

EDENHOFE:...KANAGULK RAILWAY.

The Ron. E. J~ WHITE.-I desire to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing the question of the Edenhope-Kanagulk railway' line.

Six honorable. mem'bers' rose ill' their places (as req:uircd by the Standing Orders) to SUPP€H·t the motion,

The HOll. E. J'. WHITE.-Perhaps it may be advisable for me to go a little into past history in cOllnexion with the pro­posed Edellhope-Kanagulk. railway line. The Edenhope district was settled up­wards of 80 years ago, when Melbourne was a mere village. The residents have been agitating for 40 years' to secure the eonstruction of a railway line, and fifteen years ago the Railways Standing.' c'om­mittee took evidence, and,~ .afteI:' repeated v,isit.'3 to the district, brought in a recom­mendation in 1921. The effect of this recommendation was that a line should be constructed from Kanagulk to Edenhope at' a cost of £163,000, I think. The Go­v:~rnment was to provide out of the Con­solida ted Revenue, or from some. other fund', £70;000~ to be g~veIt as a free gift to the Railway Department. This condition was carrying out a provision of the De­vciopmental Raihv.ays Act. The fund established. under that A.ct. had. been de­pleted during .the wai·, and at that time. fhere was not· sufficient to' provide the £70,000 required.. :Mr. Lawson., who. wa~ then· Premier, refused to· go on with the: construction· of the line: unTess· the land:" holders along the route agreed' tocontri:, bl.lte a. certain. amount. towards the, cost of: COllstruction. I am not going to dwell 01.1:

the question whether that was'. a fair con­dition or not to impose upon people who had been waiting for 40 years fur r·aihva.y communication. It was. not ·a usual con­ditioll up tilL then £Ql' any r:esidents to be a·sked to contribute towards the cost o:fi building a railway line. Just about that time three railway lines ·wer.e being pushed into New South Wales, fr.om Victoria,.. and the residents adjacent to' the· routes

were not. asked. t.O eontribu'te one shilling towards th.e cost" alth.ough they were not even taxpayers. in .this. Sta.te. A meeting of land-holElers. in the. district was held, and' they agreed to allow their land' to be loaded up to the extent of £35,000, but they never se.emed· to have a clear idea hoiW the; mon~y' was to' be r:a:is.ed., The geneI'a} idea was: that a: rate; something on the' lines of. the deficiency rate that used, to' obt.ain,. would be sbruc'k. The Government was to raise about £3,500 a year for tell: years; free of in.terest ta, the land-holders. However,. the Government looked at this matter from an entirely different standi-point, and took the view that the moneY' ought to' be a free gif.t to the Railway Department. That meant that the land-holders would have- to form a trust and go' into' the open market to borrow .the money. I may say, in passing, that in order to comply with this' conditron the matter was aKain referred' to the Rail­ways Stand'lng eb~mittee, w hi-ell. amended the original' recommendation in the direc.,. tion I have just indicated. It. was ascer­tained that the best rate. at which money, could be obtained was 6 per. cent.,. and 36s. per cent. was to be set aside as a sinking fund, for a period. of 25 years. That would mean that land-holderS' would be liable for fr.om £711000. to, £74,000 in­stead. of £35,000. IlL fact" owing to the increased rate of interest, I venture to say the amount would not be, much under £85,000', Land-holdeifs contend that that would.. be an unfair burden to place u'p0n them. They say theY';v~ll not contnbute that amount. The Rml­\,;-ay Department will not go on with the construction of the line unless that amount is founa. We' have therefore' arr.iv:ed at 3; dead: end. We cannot get' the money. Certain land\.. holders ha.ve refused~ to' contr.ibute anything, and we have- lTO means of compell~ng them to dcr so; It was to be' a voluntary gift, andl

it wonI'd be a negation of terms: to say that we will compel men to voluntarily give~ I think the present Ministry are· prepared toO mee,t the landtholders in some \vay provided that a- difficulty with the' Railways Standing' Committee can be got' over. The obstacle would be a small' one if the Railways Standing Committee' were comprised of the -same members as the CJommittee that p'a'8sed the recommen­dation. But siiJlce' tllelll there· hav.:e been

Edenhope-iKanagulk [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Railway. 559

changes. There are now thr.ee new mem­bers 011 that Oommittee. The present Committee would pr..obably require to have the whole 'question reopened. In other words, if the matter were simply referred to the Railways Standing Com­mittee it would have to 'go to the bottom of the Est. When it did come up for consideration the Committee would have to cover the ground already gmm over in the last fifteen years. Fresh evidence would be ca1leq, and altogether there would be veI:Y considerable delay. The line is urgently required. The people of the district are justly entitled to it. Unfortunately they do not know 'what they can do in order to get the 1and with­out paying the exorbitant amount of £85,000. These people, as general tax­payers, have had to contribute to every other line that has been constructed in the State. But now when' it comes to the construction of the line for which they have been agitating for 40 years, they are askeu to contribute an altogether ridicu­lous amount. I have indicated that the tine is urgently required. Several large esta tes were purchased for closer settle­ment, and SO soldier settlers have been p1aced on blocks. These men were pro-'. mised a railway. If they do not get the line they will certainly go to the Govern­ment and demand that the cost of -their holdings Should be .reduced. They can­not carryon without a line. They took up comparatively small holdings~ intend­ing to carryon mixed farming. Some of them are 40 mi1es awa'y from a rail­w.ay station. There is ,another phase of the question .1 desire t.o refer to. This line would tap the .:finest redgum forest areas 'in the State. 'The RailwB:Ys Stand­i~g Committee, when takiIlg evidence, re­ceived .the sworn testimony of one man that, in his opinion, tlie amount of red­gum timber was .8"0 huge that it would be possible to load a spf>cial tr'ain with it

. every day for twenty years. That will give an idea of the vastness of the forests. If for no 'Other reason than to make avail­able the 'enormous supplies of redgum timber the Government would be justified in ~ushiI\g on with the construction of I!he 'line. They 'would besendiIlg a line to .an ol8.-esta'blished district w'here the people have been 'awaiting the conveni­ence !for yery many years. It is 'Up to the Government 'to do 'all in their power

in this way to help the settlers, who are the descendants of the pioneers who took up land there 80 years ago. If it is pos­sible to overcome the little difficulty with the Railways Standing Committee, tho land-holders will agree to a contri­bution. I take it that the MinIStry wili do w ha t they can to have this line constructed in the interests of people who have .been waiting near~y ·a lifetIme for it.

The .Hon. W. H. EDG.AR.-What is the length of the line ~

The Hon. E. J. WHITE. - Thirty­seven miles.

The Hon. T. H. P.AYNE.-What is the population of_the district?

The Hon. E. J. 1VHITE.-I cannot give the population figures. There is quite a good population. This is one of the lines the Government had in 'view when the Developmental Railways Act was passed. It is a line that, perhaps, would not 'pay at the $tart. But, with the in­crease 'of population that would result from the construction -of the railway, it would pay handsomely in the near future.

The Hon. M. SALTAU.-I support the remarks made by my :colleague (Mr ... White). Durirrg ·my tour ·of the prO­vince at the recent election, I had the pleasure of coming in contact with very many Bettlers-old and new -pioneers. I was immensely struck with the grit that they displayed in "sticking it" in out­back places. If something can be ac­compliShed by referring this matter bap,k to the Railwa;ysStanding Committee Jor eonsideration, it snould be done. This House is doing a reasona ble and proper tning in 'bringing the matter under the notice of the Ministr'y.

Th8 Ron. D. L. McNAMARA (Min­ister of Mines).-I .promise Mr. White and Mr. Saltau that the representations made by them shall be brought under .the notice .of the Minis.ter of Railways. Their remarKs, as published in Hansa,rd, will .be submitted to the Minister, who will, 1 am sure, give .them his earnest considera­tion.

The .motion Jor ·the adjournment of the Youse was negatived.

BILL READ A .FIRST TIME. The following Bill was introduced by

the Hon.J. P. JONES (Minister'of Plil>­lic Works), and read a first time':­

:Censorship of 'WIms "Bill.

560 Consolidated Revenue [COUNCIL.] Bill (No.5).

CONSOLIDATED REVENUE BILL (No.5).

The Hon. J. P. JONES (Minister of Publio Works).-I move-

That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is a Supply Bill for the month of October. There are O'ne or two items that .I desire to direct the attention of the House to. The Supply now asked for and already obtained on account of the present year amounts to £5,309,000, and, as com­pared with the actual expenditure last year, is mOore than the proPO'rtiO'na te amount by £198,000, one-third of last year's e,xpenditure being £5,111,000. The principal votes for which Supply is in ex­cess Q1f last year's e,xpenditure are as fol­low: -Division 10-Chief Secretary's Office-Pensions. This vote e,xceeds the proportion for the four months by £12,000, and is due to the fact that the amount voted to meet the de,ficiency in the POilice Superannua­tion Fund is required in the first half of the financial ye,ar. The con­tribution from the Licensing Fund will not be available until December. Divi­sion 33-Education salaries-is in excess by £22,000. This is principally on ac­count of statutory increments to teachers and expansion of educational activities. Division 37-Education Endowments and Grants-is in excess by £19,000. Grants to te,chnical schools account for this increase. They are paid quarterly in advance, there,fo're provision must be made in October for the payments due for the quarter ending 31st December next. DivisiO'n 52-Income Tax-ex­ceeds the prO'Poiftion by £10,000. This is due to the amalgamation of the taxation offices, but the extra expenditure is only required pending recO'up by the Com­monwealth of its proportion of the cost o,f the amalgamated offices. Division 82 -Agriculture. Provision fO'r the Maffra Beet Sugar FactO'ry is made under this division, and the proportion is exceeded by £7,000. The late season held back delivery of beet to the factory, thus involving he,avy expenditure in t.he first months of this financial vear. Division 87-Public Health-is 'in excess by £9,000. This is due to the payments in advance to the Infectious Diseases Hos­-pital, Fairfield, and to the He,atherton 'SanatO'rium. The item Working Ex­penses of the Railways (Division 89) is i11 excess of one-third O'f last year's actual

expenditure by £152,000. This increase is mostly on account of wages and sala­ries, due to the general expansion of the Department in handling the in­creased traffic, resulting, of course, in ad­ditional revenue.

The Hon. H. F. RICHARDSON.-In accordance with custom, I take it tha.t we shall discuss the Bill in Committee. It is only when the're are matters of very great importance to deal with that we depart from that practice. That does not appear to be the case on this occasion. I can see no objection, thereforel, to as­senting to the motion.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and

committed. Clause l--(Issue and application of

£1,395,448). ' The Han. W. TYNER.-The matter

that I specially wish to refer to relates to weights and measures. I would urge on the Minister fOir Publio Works the desirability of bringing down a comprehensive Bill dealing with the Weights and Measures Act. There are many defects in the present system, and amending legislation is required t~ remedy them. Honorable members who have been connected with the Weights and Measures Unions in the different suburbs have recognized, and have from time to time so stated, the absolute neces­si ty of a measure of this kind with the view of ensuring a better method of ad­ministration of the various provisions o£ the Act. The Railway Department has done good work in perfecting their ar­rangements for the weighing of all kinds of produce, such as wheat, oats, and potatoes, but a great deal more re~ains to be done, and the public demanel a com­prehensive measure in reference to the subject as it affects both town and coun­try. A Bill was prepared last session, but there was not sufficient time avail­able to enable it to be considered. I hope that when the opportunity o.Qcurs, and that it will occur early, the pI.'esent Go­vernment will give this question their serious attention.

The Ron. Dr. HARRIS.-I wish to draw attention to the explanation that was given by the Minister of Public Works in regard to the Taxation Office. We in the State of Victoria understood that when the Taxation Offices of the

Oonsolidated Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill (No.5). 561

State and the Commonwealth were amal­gamated a great saving would be effected. In place of that, the Minister of Public Works has informed us that this State is very much out of pocket as the result of the amalgamation, but he added that it wonld not be out of pocket when the Commonwealth paid to the State its pro­portion of the coot. That does not relieve the taxpayer o·f any part of his burden. It haB not been shown to u~ that there has been any reduction in the cost of collection of the income tax. I would likC1 to get from the Minister a .further :-Itatemcnt as to what saving has been ('ifected by the ::rmalgamat,ion of the Taxation Offices, and ""hat savings are likely in the future. .

The HOll. J. P. JONES (Minister of Pu blic Works) .;-1 will make inquiries regarding the matters that have been rajded by Dr. B:arris, and supply him 'with the information. The statement that has been furnished by the Treasury officials is that the income tax payments exceed the proportion by £10,000, that this is due to the amalgamation of the Taxation Offices, and that the extra· (~xpenditul'e is only required pending the recoup by the Commonwealth of its proportion of the cost of . the amalga­mated offices. I do not know what nmount we are paying, but T will obtain the information for tbp, honorable mem-ber. .

The Hon. II. F. RICHARDSON.-­J n reference to the item of land tax, I (le6ire to bring under the notice of the House certain matters to which I have called attention on several pre­viou.s occasions, and to ascertain whether the Go.vernment are prepared to take action regarding them. I refer to the dividing of the State into dis­tricts, and the appointment o·f per­manent valuers to deal with the land tax valuations,. municipal valuations, and the valuations for probate and other pur­poses. The q u€t3tion was under discus­Bion some years ago, and the late Sir Thomas Bent suggested a scheme of the kind I have indicated. By these means a great deal of heart-burning and trouble would, I think, be saved, and the Depart­ment would be able to carry out its work practically free from any additional cost. The valuations would be made use of in connexion wit.h the land tax, by

tJI{~ municipalit{es, and for probate pur-" poses, and they would also be of value to persons lending money. It is fre­qnently .stated th".t the municipalities have, in some cases, undervalued their properties; that they value too low, and ra.te too low. It is true that they }:lave SWCTIl value.rs, and tha.t valuations have to be made every five years. But five years is a long period of time. When in the country districts recently, I was told by a shire councillor that not only were the rates in his shire low, but that the valuations also were exceedingly low. That has often been found to be the case in connexion with the purchase of pro­perty for soldier settlemAnt, and for other purposes. .i few years ago J moved in this matter at an annual conferer ce of the municipalities, and it waB then agreed that the Government should be asked to subdivide the State into districtB of a 1'8asonable size, and to appoint permanent valuers who ,vould devote the whole of their time .to their work, 'watching the sales of pl'oper!..)', and seeing that the values placed on property were fair. I ask the :rvGnister of Public Works to bring the matter under the notice of the Government. I know that the Land Tax Department has been inquiring into it., and I know that objections have been raised. I do not think the objections are insurmountable. In many countries permanent valuers are employed, and if that system were adopted here, I think the result would be found to be 'satisfac­tory. It is well known that, in con­nexion with the valuing of properties for land tax purposes, there has been a good deal of bungling, and in Gome distriets .rears elapsed before the land tax offices had complete valuations. In many cases men were appointed who really were not competent. If the Government would take this work in hand, appoint compe­tent men, and pay them reasonable sala­ries, they would find that these duties wou.ld be better performed than they are under the present "higgerldy-piggeldy" system, and done practically at no coot to the Depa.rtment.

The Hon. G. L. GOUDIE.-The case made out by Mr. Richardson may, to: some extent, commend itself to honorable membem, but, in my opinion, the ap­pointment of permanent valuers would,

562 Oonsolidated Revenue 1\ 'H L; NC 11.. I . Bill (No. b).

not be attended by ·such satisfact01'Y r.e­sults as he anticipates. A man might be a good va1.uer in one district, but huye no knowledge whatever of ;the properties in another district. .

The Hon. H. F. RICHARDSON.-[ sug­gested a divi-slon of the State into dis­tricts.

The Hon. G. 1-1. GOUDIE.-With the formati011 of another Government De­partment, it is probable that . the valuers employed would be moved from district to district, and the object the honorable member has in view might be defeated 111

that way. I think that, on the whole, the municipal valuations are fair. The municipalities are compelled by the Act to make valuations ever'y five years, and they employ sworn valuers for the pur­pOGe. '1'hese men are thoroughly con­versant ·with the value of the propertles in their districts, and I do not think that if permanent valuers were appointed by the Government, any better results would be secured. In my opinion, it would be umvise for the Government to undertake this work. It would mean the building up of another Department, and we know that the cost of our public Departments is very b; gh '~'be valuers employed wou lcl probably not prove themselves to be any more eific:(,:,t than the men who are now employed by the municipalities. Before the Govel'll' "nt take any action in the matter, I trust that they win give it their very serious (onsideration. I am agn.im!t men who have not previously been in a district be:ng .appointed to value pro­perty in thlt district, and I am against the crent' 0'1 of another permanent Departmrnt.

The Hon: H. F. RIOHARDSON.­I WDl1t to r :11:e it quite clear that, under the ~v~t~' 11 lUlve suggested, the State would be divided into districts, and permanent v'lluers would be appointed for each district. If the valuers were to be' moved ! l'ITt from distrirt to cl~strict, I agree -···f :Ml'. Goudie .that ~l'1tisfae­torv rcc;uh'l 'vould not .be secured. As to the fOl'T' l at i on of another Government Department,. T would point out that our Lanrl "r'lx """T)artment already hac; its staff of valuers. Under' the system pronoO:;Nl .. (' c:uldonly be extending a DE partment that is in existence, and ih( .addition·!l work would be car-

ried ,out without any increase In cost. I should like the lVlinister tOo ascertain what the land-tax valuations are cOosting at the present timel? and what was the cost of the original valuations. I should like the,same valuations to be­used both fo·r Federal and State purposes. It would be necessa.ry for an agreement tOo be arrived at between the Federal and the State authorities. .

The HOll. E. L. KIERNAN.-I sup­port the coutention Mr. Richa.rdson has put forward. We hoped tOo save sOome money through having only one authOrIty to cOollect both State and FedeTal i.ncome taxes, and we should be able tOo dOl some­thing in the way Oof having one authOrIty to cOollect both State and Federal land taxes. At the preselnt time, the Commonwealth, the State, and the municipalities make sep~ate valuations Oof the same land, The valuatIOns vary, and the increased cost entailed is nOlt the­best thing fo[' the taxpayers, I had an example of how municipalities arrive, at valuations at a tOown in the north-west, 0(11 the Adelaide line. I attended I!I

council meeting there', and the question of valuations was discussed. A local agent whOo was conversant with the, dis­tricrt was preseut at the me'eting to hear whol was to get the job of valuer. He told me his price for effecting the valua­tions was something over £300, and he said that he could not do the work con­scientiorusly for anything less. A wire was received from a man who had valued a shire over 100 miles away -to the effect that he was pl'epared to do. the wo['k for £101 Oil' £103. He :knew nOothin,g at all about the district, but offered to do the work for one-third '0;£ the amount the­local man was wining tOi dOl it {QII". ,-,The cOouncillors in their wisdom decided to a..ocept the tender of the Q1utsider.

TheRon. A. E. CHANDLER.-,Some­times the laical man knows' tpo' much.

The HOon. E. L. KIERNAN.-That may be eo, but. in my opinion the tender of the Ooutside man was aooepted, not only b-ecause it was one-third of t.he price, of the lo~al man, but beCiause he knew so little about t.he district that he would be compelled to accept almost automutica.lly the previous valuations. 'That wa~ what he intended to do. He was not. going to fa.iss trouble by varying the previous v<tlu<ttions a great deal. I think that he ann the councillors saw eye tOo eye in the matter. If we had uniform valuataoll'S.

ConsoZidated, Revenue [30 SEPTEMBiElR, 1924. ] Bill (No.5).

for Commonwealth, State, and municipal purposes, it would be a great advantage tQi the ci tizeus ge'uerall y.

The Ho'll,. J'. P. JONES (lVlinister of Public: "Torks).-I think there is a great deal in what 1\1r. Richa.rdson has said. I win look into the matte-r and see what o(}ojections the Ta."'(ation Department' ha~ to the proposal he has. made. It cer­tainly commends itself to me, At, t,he present home Cormmonwealth, State, and munidpal valuers- go over the, same g,round. To my mind,. that indicates a g;reat waste of money,. Three Qir four men are engaged to do the one job, and it is certainly worth making an inv.estiga­tiQin tOo see if it is not possible to achieve more accurate valua.tions, and a.t the same time save the Statle' money, My OWB

view is that t.he valuations placed on land .by the T'axation Department are too; low :r think that if' lands werre valued at a.ny. thing near their real value the State's incOome would be cQinsiderably higher. ,

The Ron. R. H. S. ABBOT'Tr.~l\1.en­tion has been made of the saving that it was hoped would be effected by amal­gamating the income tax collecti'on opera,.tiolls of the State and the Common­wealth Governments. I should like, to bow from the M.inister whether the Govern.ment propose to reopen with the Commonwealth Government t~e question of its withdrawal- from the field of direct t.axation, SOl that the States alo'ne might tax the incomes of their' own people That was proposed at one time, and it, was th.en. hoped that something of real value "Would be dOone with the result that taxation would be reduced., However" aH tIra,t has happened is tha.t there has, been a very large in­cre313e' in the taxation coHected from public.: companie~ hy the C'ommoowealth Gove-rnment, but no alleviation to the ordinary taxpa yar a ppe,a.rs tor have eve:ntuated up to the present time. Ther(\ is no douht. that all these im.post.s, increas­ing as they are, are very de,trimental to the, prosperity 0'£ the State and its people, and I hope that when the Go­vernment gets. properly into its stride, it will be' able to arrive at an agreement with • the Commonwealth Government by which the latter will withdraw from the direet taxation of the inC'omes of the poopole of tn~' Sta,tes.

The Ron .. H, II .. 8MIT~L-I wish to dri:rect. t.he attention o·f .the Minister to the condition of the Botanic Gardens. In

the past they have heIdi a. world-wide reputation, qEd ha.ve beeu regarded as among,&t t.he, finest 0'£ t.he world's ga.rdens. Of course, people in all part.s of th§- State are proud of their IOlc'aT gardens, but we in Melbourne have bee'll very proud in­deed of the Botanio Gardens. U nfo·r­tunately, they have been getting rathe.r dilapidated J and at tne present time, pre­sent a- very shabhy appearance. Their co'ndition was brought under my notice, and no later than this morning I walked through them. I lea.rned that in the last twelve mouths 28 men have belen put o.ff. Ther faotpa,ths are in a. very bad state, there are leaves all over the place, and the grass is not cut properly. In the lake, there is a mass of weeds that should be kept down. The path over the l'utStic bridge haS' been closed because the bridge is m.1safe for traffic. On Saturdays and Sundays particularly, but also on we'ek days, the garderns are. visited by large numbers of people. Visitors from the- country are very' fond of going there, and the gardens ar.e a favorite re­sort for children. I am sure it is not the' wish of the' Government that the Botanic- Hardens sho11ld deteriorate. It is our duty to Bee that they are properly looked after. I belieye it is only neces .. sary fpr me to mention this mntt~r to the l\Iinister to ensure that some improve-ment w.il1 be brought about. .

The Hon. Fr. F. RICHARDSON.­Mr. Smith has just referred to the Mel­bourne Botanic Gardens, and I' wish to refer to the paltry amount that is voted for reserves and gardens in t.he country districts.

The Hon. H. H. SJ\UTH.-Y ou have very fine gardens, indeed, in Geelong.

The Hon. H. F. RIOH1\.RDSON.­That is' so; but we have- to maintain them at. our own expense.. We get nothing from the Government for those gardenls. There are one or two reserves outside of Geelopg in l'€spect of which very small Government grants are made. I think that for Queen's Park we get £10 a year from the Government, and for the reservo at BarwOll Reads about £5 a year. The people- in the country are supposed to maintain their parks and gardons them­Rclves. The nmount voted by the Go­,-el'nment for the purpose is paltry. In the countr.y districts these reserves are mor,e jmpoTtant tha.n the reserves in the

564 , Oonsolidated Revenue [COUNCIL.] Bill (No.5).

great metropolitan area with its immense wealth. I understand that the Govern­ment have agreed to make an extra con­tribution in respect of the Melbourne Botanj c Garden~. 1 think I read in the newspaper the other day that thp, Min­ister had either increased the wages of the men or had agreed to provide an extra man. I rose principally to appeal to the Government to provide a la,rge.r amount for the maintenance of reserves and gardens throughout the country dis­tricts. Speaking from memory, I think £1,000 a year is all that js voted by Par­liament for all the reserves outside the metropolitan area.

The Hon. J. K. MERRITT.-I wish to refer. to the condition of the piece of land at the side of the Federal Parlia­ment Honse, which is really our own Parliament House. That land is being wasted. J believe that the matter is en­tirely one for this Parliament to deal with. For two or three years, I was on the Oommittee that had control of the land, and I remember how it used to go against my grain to vote against my con­science. The land in quelStion is a beauti­ful piece of land abutting on Albert­street. Enclosing it is a very beautiful iron railing selt in a very fine bluestone foundation. When I was on the Committee to which I ha.ve referred, I respected very greatly the opinions of the then Speaker of another place, and of a gentle­man who was then President of this House, and I did not like to vote against them. The late Sir Frank Madden had 'a very strong liking for the beautiful wrought-iron fence that encloses this pip-co of land, and also for the beautiful bluestone foundation in which it is set. lIe really seemed to thiuk that the re­tention of that particular work of art in that position was of greater importance than opeuing up the land, and turning it into a proper garden. He wae sup­ported by our late respected President.. I do not know how other members felt, but I always vOlted with the then Speaker, and the then President, because I did not like to vote against them, but I felt sorry that the land was nQot put to proper use. AG I have said, the land is surrounded by a beautiful fence, and we know from experience how parks and gardens have been improved by the re­moval of railings. I am a member of

the Oha.pter of St. Paul's Oathedral, and for a long time there was a railing round the land adjoining the cathedral. I used to say, "vVhy not take this railing down." Eventually it was taken down. That was an enormous improvement, a.nd I am sure that thel result would be the same in this case, because an attractive garden would be available for children to' play in and people to rest in during the hot weather. At present the place is a perfect. nightmare. You will see twa or three horses straying about, and perhaps. a. few boys kicking a fOQotban, while paper is strewn all around. I believe that the Universit.y authorit.ies would be very glad to! have that fence.

The Hon. W. J. BEcKETT.-What do they want. a fence for "

Thel Han. J. K. MERRITT.-Well, I am told that they do want a fence·. As a fence it may be a very good Qone, and it would certainly cost an enormous sum to,-day, but aU the same it is a deltriment there, so I hope that it will be removed, and that the land will be made better use- of.

The Han. J. P. JONES (Minister of Public W,Qorks).-I have made a" note of Mr. Merritt's rema.rks. No doubt every honorahle member here agrees with him tha.t be,tter use could be made of that land. vVhile the existing fence remains', however, t.hat iR impossible. I will look into the matte,r, and see what can be done in the direction suggested by Mr. IVlerritt. I used to be Qon that Committee, myself,. and I was instrumental in preventing the erection Qof a wooden building for re­patriation offices theire. Three or four yea.rs ago the GOovernment were keenly anxiQous that repatriation o.fficeG should be cQonstructed on that spot, but I thought it would not 'be a very nice arrangement, particula,rly right opposite an hotel, and tha.t a much more suitable place could be. found for the purpose. When the next session came round I found I was off the Committ~e-I had opposed the powers that be. I ceortainly feel very glad that I took up the position I did. Those who voted against the Government Qof the day on tha.t o.ccasion did the right thing, and the repatriation offices were erected in a much mOore suita,ble locality.

The Han. W. L. R. CLARKE.-I shOould like to. support what has been said in regard to reserve,s and gardens in the country. Tremendous numbers of people vi~it gardens like those at Kyneton and

Consolidated Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill (No.5). 565

Daylesfolrd. They are very belautiful gardens, and, nOo doubt, a great deal Oof expense is entailed in their maintenance. Therefore, I hope that the Government will se,e tha,t they are, given every possible encouragement and assistance.

The Hon. J. STERNBERG.-I hOope that the Minister will realize that we are sincere in our desire that gardens outside the city should receive every encOourage­ment, and I wish to emphasize the fact that the sum prOo~Tided on the Estimates it) not· commensura.te with wha,t is required. Mr. Richardson has referred tOo the gardens at GeelOong. I would remind the l\linister tha,t there are gardens at Bendigo which deserve consideration. It is very necessary tha,t the GOlvernment should relcognize the importance of a sum being placed on the Estimates sufficient to enable the pick 0'£ the country gardens to be attended to'. ThOose gardens should be placed in a better position financially than they are at present. It is well knOown that people take part in big excur­sions into the country, and they derive a large amount of pleasure from visiting the gardens.

The Hon. J. K. ~IERRITT.-In con­nexiOon with the vOote for pOorts ana ha,rbours, I wish tOI refer to a. paragraph which appeared in the .A'I"gus a few days ago with regard to the filling of a vacancy ()In the Melbounle Harbour Trust. When­ever a va,cancy has o'ccurred on that Trust, and alsO' on the 'Marine Board, it has always been the 'custom tOo cOonsult the Chamber Oof Commerce 'before filling it. FOor some years I was a member of the council Oof the Chamber Oof Commerce, and I know how ca,reful1y they considered the representation of va,rious interests on such public bodies. I have not been asked by them to bring up the matter, but I am still a member of the Chambelr of Com­merce, and I ha,ve a strong feeling of regret that the Government has not seen fit to follOow the custom Oof consulting those who are more inte,rested than anybody else, and who are best fitted tOI give advice and help in a matter of this SOort. The vacancy on the MelbOourne Harbour Trust was caused by the death 0'£ Mr William Andrews. He was a good representative, and the Chamber of Commerce and the Importers' Association, of which Mr. Andrews was also a member, only desired that the best man available should be secured as his successor. I am not going to say tha,t the man appo[nted by the

Government is not a gooq. man. I do not know him at all. I do know, however, that the man recommended by the Chamber of Commerce, in consulta,tion with the Importers' Association, is a very fine man indeed, and would have been an acquisition tOo the Trust. The Govern­ment did nOot act on that recOommendation but appointed somel one of whOom the Chamber Oof Comme,rce does not approve. I find tha,t in the paragraph tOo which I have re.ferred it is stated that~

As a result the Chamber has now adopted a resolution expressing regret that someone. more representative of the importers was not chosen for the position.

That pa,ragraph appeared in the .A rgus a day or two ago. Apparently, then, the work of the Harbour Trust is nOot going tOo be carried out as well as in the past. If the gentleman who has been appointed has not the necessary elxperience and quaJifica.t.ioofls, the work of the Trust can­not be soo well done as would otherwise have been the case. I do nOot know whether the Minister has any infOormation on the matter. Of cOourse, I am aware that the Government are not 'bound to act on the' recOlIDmendations of the bodies I ha,ve mentioned, but it will be a grea.t pity if we are to, ha,ve a change from a custom of that kind. Perhaps the Minister can explain why such a departure has been made. He himself has commercial in­terests, and would na,turally wish to see t.he best man· appointed. In the para­graph in the .A 1·,qUS it is also stated that-

A vacancy exists on the Marine Board. In the past the Chamber of Commerce has been consulted as to the most eligible citizen avail­able, and its recommendations have resulted in the appointment of representative men. If that procedure is not to be followed, the Cabinet, as in the case of the Harbour Trust appointment, will have disregarded the orgalll­zation in the community best qualified to make a. nomination.

Can the l\1inister say why the good policy 0

which· has been followed in the past, of consulting those best fitted to help the GOovernment in such a,ppointments, has not been caried out in conne'xiolll. with the vacancy on the Melbourne Harbour' Trust ~

The Hon. J. P. JONES (Minister of Public Works) .-Mr. Merritt has said tha,t the wOork of the Harbour Trust will not be SO' well done because of the ap­pointment which has been made. The inference is that the man who has been appointed is not fit fo'r the position. Yet

Oonsolidated Revenue [COUNCIL.] Bill {N~. 5).

pr,evio'Usly J\ir. Merritt !Saicl that .he did llQ.t know him.

The HOll . .3. K. MERlRlTT.-I am .going on "'What memb.ers -of the Chamber of Corronerce sa.y, .aJldnoton what I know.

The HQn. J. P. JONES.-Then the position is that the Chamber of Commerce say that the work win not. be· so. well d-oue. The vacancy on the 'Trust had to be nUed by a. 'm'an engaged in .the im­porting line. My rercoUectioo Q.f the ap­pointment is that Cabinet made very care­ful inquiry into the matlter. A numbe,r of names were submitted, and, to comply with the Act, it was necessary to appoint all importer. The gentleman appointed is Mr. Duncan, of Duncan, Furness, and Co. , a. firm ·()If im pm·ters in business in Melbourne. After making inquiries as to the various men" nO'Ininated, Cabinet caJne to the -conclusiGn tha,t Mr. Duncan, \V ho is an eocperienced importer, would be a very suitu,ble man for the PQsi tio,n. As I have said, Cabinet went ca,refully into the mat.ter, and I remember that the appointment was considered from all points of vietW, includjng t.h.at Df his age. Ministern were anxious tl;!.at, whoever was ·selected should "be a. man of business ca,pa.city, who would be able to assist the Trust in its delibeifations and in its arrangements. Mr. Merritt has admitted tha,t the Government would nDt be bound to aocept the nominee of any particular bDdy, whether it was the Chamber Q.f Commercel 001' any other organiza.tion. I am sure that Cabinet selected the man whom it believed tOo be best qualified fDr the position. The members of the Gove'rnment had no fish to fry at all in the matter, and I believe the gentle­man who has been appointed is a man of special l)usiness capacity, and if he were not fitted ·for the position the Govern­ment would not have appointed him.

The lIon. l\L SALTAU. - Warrnam­boolis a port, but only.a partial harboUl'. The question. of improving it is now being inquired into by a Royal Commission, and I ha,ve no doubt we shall have recom­mendations in due course. I rose to draw attention to the fact that a great amount of siltation is going on at Warrnambool, and it is exceedingly difficult to get suffi­cient berthing accommodation for the r.egular coastal traders. Only last week a. vessel a.rrived, and because of that the small coastal steame'rs ha.d ·to pass the port." as there was no IDp.ans of aocommodating

them. Some time ago the dredge wbich was at work there was taken a way for repairs, which I believe have since been effected. I h~pe the Minister will see that this dre~ge is returned to Warrnam­bool with as tittle delay as possible) .so­that" the deepening of the water may be cal'l'ied out. If this work is not taken in hand SDon the difficulties will be more pronounced than they are now.

The Hon .. J. K. MERRITT.-Ihav,e no doubt that ,the :tvfinister of Public· Works is tired of hearing people" talking about bridges. When he sat ou the hack bench .he himself used to express a fear­of falling through Victoria-street bridge on his way ho.me, and I .am now men· tioning the 'matte}' in the interests of his own welfare. I do not kn@w whether .he now travels ove·r the­bridge at Hawthorn 'or thel Victoria-street br.i-dge, but I l~now that those. wh{) have to. use these bridges are very anxious about their condition. A.. former Minister

. of Public Works, after making inquiries,. had plans prepared to meet ,the situation,. and if he had remained in office no doubt something would have been done long be­fo.re this. Members of the present GC)vern­meut used to twit the :Ministersof the time with nQt ,doing something ,to put these bridges in a safe condition. This Government has heen three months in. office and nothing has been done yet. W·e­all remember how seriously the last -Go­vernment was criticized for its neglec~ and we know, too, how earnest Mr. Cohen was in tackling this grave question. We spend a lot of time in .talking about these rna tters, but nothing seems to result. In view of Mr. Jones's c.riticism of the pre­vious Government) I thought he would have adopted the plans which bad been. prepared by Mr. Co~en and had so.me­thing done to put these bridges in a safe condition. It is not fair that people who have to use these bridges should do. so in fear and trembling.' While lam speak­ing about bridges I should like the Minis­ter to tell 11S what prospect there is of constructing the Spencer-street bridge in th.e near future.

The Hon. E. L. KIERNAN.-That is not in your pr,ovinoo.

The H~n. J. K. YERRITT.-PeThaps I am just as interested in the Speneer­street bridge as Mr. Disney i's. It ie 'R

bridge that needs making veTY badly i'll

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the interests of the commercial co~ munity. No work is more necessary than the consllrnction of this bridge. Many honorable members are aware of the con­gestion of traffic that there is in Flinders­street, particularly in the afternoon. This congestion result8 from the fact that there is no bridge at Spencer-street. In this instance, too, Mr. Oohen had plans pre­pared when he' was in office, and if he had remained there no doubt a contract would now have been let and the work com­menced. Members of the present Govern­ment have repeatedly said that if they got the chance they would do something in regard to many of these matters. They have the chance now, and I hope the Min­ister will be able to tell us that he will do something before very long in regard to the bridges to which I have referred.

The' Hon. H. I. OOHEN.-I also in­tended to refer to the bridges which Mr. Merritt has spe>ken about. When Mr. Dian.ey was sitting on the back bench on this side of the House, he was tl;t.e prota.­gonist for the erection of the Spencer­stireet bridga in season and' out of season.

Tlie Hon. J. H. DrsNEy.-And so he is still.

The Hon. H. I. COREN.-Quite right, too. One would ha ve thought that-to adapt a simile used by Mr. Abbott-Mr. Disney would not have waited for the Ministry to get into its stride, but would have endeavoured to beat trre starter jn the effort to get the Spenoer-street bridge constructed.

The Hon. J. H. DrsNEY.-I am' only one of a number.

The Hon. H. I. OOHEN.-As· Mr. Merritt has indicated, we have been talk­ing about this bridge for very many years: I think 40 years have elapsed since the subject was first mentioned. If it had been constructed ·years ago it would' un­questionably have constituted a great betterment to a large part of Mr. Disney's consti tuency, which has been retarded throughou t all these years by the neglect to have this bridge constlmcted. Honor­able members will recollect that a few months ago we had a regular orgy of agi­tation with regard' to traffic cong8~t1on and the best methods to remedy it. Many means were suggested, and while there was some difference of opinion as to the causes of a.nd- remedy for such congestion, everyone was agreed that it was a'bso ..

lutely necessary to build the bridge at S pen cer -street.

The Hon. E. L: KIE·RNAN.-It was largely a question of cost.

The Hon. H. I. OOHEN.-That is a mere' drop in the ocean compared with the beneficial results which would accrue. not only to :M:elbourne but to the whole of Victoria, by the building of this bride:a.

The Hon. Dr. lIARRIs.-Prove that. The Hon. H. 1. COHEN.-That ,. ..

quite easy. The country is dependent ,­the city and the facilities which axe offered for the carrying of goods of all kinds. The w.ork at Spencer-street Rail­way Station would be facilitated by tho construction of the Spencer-street bridge. The absence of that bridge means that goods have frequently to be car­ried a couple of miles further' than is necessary, and that means additional expense, which must be added tOo the cost of the goods. I have not the slightest doubt that the country would be benefited by the building of the bridge.

The Hon. E. ,L. KIERNAN.,-The con­struction of that bridge would' mean that goods would have to be carried further than they are now.

The Hon. H. 1. COHEN.-lt would short.en the carriag~ considerably. I do not think there have ever been two opinions as to· the necessity for this bridge. At one time there was a difficulty as to whether it should be movable or fixed, but a determination was finally arrived at, and no,w there' is nD obstacle. to going on with the work. With regard to the ether bridges referred to by Mr. MeFritt, he is correct when he says that at the instiga­tion of t.he municipalities he. represents appeals. were made fo the prevIOUS Go­vernment for something to be Glone. Last Sunday week I went to the bridge at Hawthorn, and cbserved that apparently ncthinghad' been done to improve its condition. One side of it still remains closed to foot traffic, and vehicles are allowed' across it only at a very limited speed.

The Han. J. p~ JONES.-I suppose you expected to see a new bridge.

The Han. H. I. COHEN.-I expected tOo see the beginning of something. but so far nothing has been done to effect the llecessarv repairs. I should like honor-' able meTYlb?rs to bec0me aware of the fa('t. that although Mr. Disney is not now sittin<r in ODPosition. there are stj]l many champions for the Spencer-street bridge,

568 ' Co'nsolidated Revenue [COUNCIL] Bill (No.5).

and we are going to' insist that -something shall be done to give the relief de­sired.

The H,on. W. L. R. CLARKE.-A number of people who had come from the cO'untry to' attend the Show took advan­tage of the oppOortunity to impress' upOon the Minister of Public W Oorks the absalute necessity fOor prOoviding money for bridges ill the country districts. I think we all agree that the present Minister will prave a fair-minded man in the discharge af the duties c·f his office, and so I hope that he will nO't devote the whole of the money at his command to building bridges in Melbaurne, and neglecting 'the interests Oof . the people in the country, who require them just as much. The l\1:inister must remember that bridges are absO'lutely necessary to enable the country districts to be developed. I am satisfied that the Minister was impressed with the requests made to' him, and although the farmers have gone back to their homes, and can­nat always be interviewing 1Iinisters, hE? will realize the fact that there are repre­sentatives here who will keep him up to ,the mark, and see that country interests are nat neglected. Country residents generally were highly indignant at the ,appaintment by the previous GO'vern­ment O'f a city member to' the posi­tion of Minister O'f Public WOorks. A man with Oonly city experience cannat, even with the best intentions, knOow the vital needs o.f the co.untry. The present Government has also selected a metrO'poli­tan member to fill the office of Minister o.f Public W O'rks. The cauntry residents are unanimous in the O'piniO'n that the man holding that portfoliO' shauld be well acquainted with the needs O'f the countrv in the way Oof rO'ads and bridges. It wauld be disastrO'us if the inter'ests of the metropolis prO'ved so strong in a mat­ter of this sort that cauntry interests were neglected, and it is of the utmost impQ!rt­ance that the Minister Oof Publio W Oorks should be a co.untry repr·esentaiive.

The Han. H. 1. COI-IEN.-The last Minister O'f Public Works prepared a scheme to finance the erection of metro­pO'litan bridges out Q!f metropolitan funds entirely.

The Han. W. L. R. CLARKE.-The needs of the country in this respect are more impO'rtant than those of Melbourne. I do nQ!t knO'w that it would very much matte,r if the metrapolis disappeared alt.Q!­gether. The country could still carry

on. I do' hope that all the money that is necessary fOol' the constructian af bridges in the cOountry will be made avail­able by the present Govenlment, and that Melbourne projects will ·not be advanced at the expeuse of those in the country.

The Han. Dr. HARRIS.-While we are talking a baut bridges, I shauld like to bring under the notice of the Minister 0'£ Public Works the position which has been braught abaut by flaods in the shires o-f Bright and Be·echwo-rth. These two shires have lots of hilly country, and w hen there are heavy falls of rain fioQds accur, and do a tremendous amount of damage to roads and bridges. I hald in my hand a letter from the shire o{ BeechwO'rth, asking me to support an application for a grant of £150 to repair rOoads and bridges damaged during the recent :floods. I hope to be a member o,f a deputation of councillors of Bright to wait upon the Minister to-morrow ill favaur of a similar grant. I think th& Bright shire is in the wo-rst pasitian of any shire in Victoria. It has many bridges over. rapid str,elame, all of which are subject to :floods. This shire is very heavily in debt owing to the necessity of constantly renewing bridges that haNe been washed away ..

The Hon. J. P. JONES (Minister of Public Works).-I wish first to deal with the Hawthorn bridge, regarding which Mr. Merritt is so w.orried. I was not aware that Mr. Cohen had had plans pre­pared. I wish he would te.ll me where they are. I have not seen them.

The Hon. R. H. S. ABBoTT.-His plans are in his mind.

The Ho.n. J. P. JONES.-Very likely. Mr. M:erritt will recallect that he intra­duced a deputatian to. me almost before I had entered upon my duties as Minister.

The Han. J. K. MERRITT.-It was about two months ago.

The Hon. J. P. JONES.-It was very shartly after Mr. Cohen had introduced me to the Department. Mr. Me'fl'itt in­troduced a deputation from Hawthorn, Richmond, and Kew. It was not lang, therefare, befare I was made acquainted with the position. I was told that there was a good deal of fear and trembling with regard to this bridge.

The Hon. H. 1. COHEN.-I heard you make a similar statement in thi,s House.

The Han. J. P. JONES.-Yes, I was ca,rried a,way, just as Mr. Merritt has been

Oonsolidated Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill (No.5). 569

carried away, by statements that have been made in respect to' the condition O'f the bridge. But when I became a re­spO'nsible Minister it was my duty too in­vestigate the matter and to' find out what the actual position was.

The Hon. J. K. lVl'ERRITT.-1 investi­gated that matter long ago.

The Hon. J. P. JONES.-The honO'r­able member did not get at all the fads as a result O'f his investigatiDn. A depu­tation waited upon me, and I recognized the importance of action. I asked my technical advisers what ste2s could be taken to test the, matter. The deputation had stated, and it had been stated in the press, that the bridge had actually sunk. One statement was that it had sunk eight inches. Obviously, if that were a fact, the bridae was in a dangerous condition. I told the, deputation that if the, bridge were in the dangerous condition alleged, I wDuld cut out red-tape and have what works were required proceeded with at once. Clearly, it would be a matter of saving lives that might O'therwise be lost. I was told that appeal after appeal had been made, to the previOous GDvernment to dO' something, and that no inquiry intOo the condition of the bridge had been held. I do not know what my honO'rable friend, Mr. Cohen, will say to that.. Does he agree ~

The HOon. H. I. COHEN.-I certainly do not.

The Hon. J. P. JONES.-Anyhow, that was the statement made to me. The l\1ayor of Richmond said they were, gO'ing to actually close the bridge' against traffic.

The Hon. H. 1. COHEN.-It is closed on one side.

The Hon. J. P. JONES.-The, Mayor of Richmond said they were going to close the bridge fDr f.ear that it would fall into the river. It seemed to' me that the ques­tion was one easy tOo test. I asked the engineers in my Department to ascertain whether the statements that had been made were true. or nOot. 'The engineers said that they could make the required test if they were instructed to do SOo. I said, "GO' ahead, do it now," and they did. We have an excellent Chief En­gineer in Mr. Kermode, and anothe'r in Mr. Merrin, the Secretary of the De­partment. We had, therefore, twO' en­gineers of undoubted ability, qualified to make a detailed examination of the bridge. The first thIng they had to do was to have the shafts pumped out in order that they

might get below. That work occupied sO'me days. In company with local en­gineers they then measured the bridge, and they came tOo the conclusion that it had not sunk at all. Further investiga­tions were made by the local engineers, and only yesterday I re.ceived a lette'r from Mr. Noble Anderson, the engineer of Richmond, giving detailed results of the investigations. lV[r. Ande'rsO'n states that since me,asureoments were taken nearly t':Velve months agO', the bridge has· sunk so little, as to. be pra,ctically incap­able of mea,surement. It had sunk the merest fraction of an inch, just a very low decimal point. Now, statements had been made tha,t cre,ated a psychological at­mosphere which inquiry shows to' have been unwarranted. It was urged that the new bridge shO'uld be ~rected at a cost of £135,000, or' thereabouts. We were told that this was necessary j there was nO' getting out of it. When I found that the bridge had not shifted, I began to look at the matter from this point of view: if it has not shifted--

The Hon. R. H. S. ABBOTT.-Why shift it 1

The Hon. J. P. JONES.-Exactly. Ap­parently, it did not want to' shift. The fact remains that there was an undoubted agitation to build a ne'w bridge. Now I am in this position: that as Minister of Public WO'rks it is my duty to prevent public money from being wasted. There will not be a single £1 wasted in my De­partment if I can help it. When I rea­lized that the statements regarding the dangerous cO'ndition of the bridge wefe inaccurate, as proved by scientific investi­gation, I said, "What is the ne,xt thing to' do 1 " I was told that there were de­fects that should be remedied. I asked my officers what could be done to repair the bridge. I said, " We have to C011-

sider two propositions. First, whether it is necessary to build a new bridge, and,. secondly, whether it is possible to strengthen the present bridge in such a way as to' make it quite serviceable." I was told it was very important that certain bO'res should be made. I asked the local councils it they were prepared to pay the cost of putting down the bores. The amount involved was £100 or £150. They refused to pay that amount. As I was anxious' that there ,should be no delay, I said, " Very well, we will pay tJie cost of the bores. We will find out wnether there is a bOottom that will support cO'ncretepiers. "

570 Consolidated Revenue [COUNCIL.]: Bill ( No.5;),..

I added that the cost of putting dewn be :fit only to be' taken to Mont the bores would be put on tOo' the COost of Park.. Uertainly he could not be the. construction· of a bridge o,r the repair- trusted with Ministerial responsibility. iug of the bridge. eventually. Whatever T·here is an urgent. need, in my authority had to., pay for that would under- opinion, for the exercise of a keen business stand. that the amount would be added to supervision over these ma.tters. Th0ugh the cost they would be, asked to contri- it is perhaps not quite relevant, I may hute. The· bOores have <1isclosed on one refer to the police barracks on St. Kilda­side a very excellent rock bottOom ·some dis- rOoad that were tOo hav.e been erected. tance down. The inquiry is proceeding, Everything had been arranged for some­as we wish to ascertain the positiOon with thing like eighteen mOonths .. The matter, regard to the other parts. The matter of course, was dealt with by the last Go­was repOorted in the press. If Mr. Mei'- vernment. . I do not wish to criticize my ritt had read the rep<>rt he would have honorable .friends, but I wish to indicate realized that there, has been no delay on the need for care in all matters of this my part. I have acted promptly. I did kind. It was proposed to erect the bar­not delay one minute after receiving the racks- Qll a: beautiful piec.e of land on 8.t. deputation. Boring is still going on. Kilda-road. I stopped it. The boring operations will be completed The Hon. H'. I. 80'HEN.-One of yemr shortly. We shall then have definite in- colleagues was agitating for it. formation before us as tOo whether a new. bridge is wanted or not. I am inclined to The Hon. J. P. JONES.-That may 1J,hink-I say this without prejud,l.ce to be. Private members agitate for many

. f things. However, I applied the same anything that may happen III uture- reasoning to that proposed building that there may be no need to undertake as :r have, applied. to the bridge. the expense of a ~ew bri.dg~.. The rep.fe·_· I visited the site. I said it would be a sentative of a bndge-bmldmg firm came 1 to me and endeavoured to persuade, me shame to spoil that beautiful piece of and on no consideration whatever to have the fo:r ever by erecting -such a building in

the centre of it, as was intended to he bridge repaired.. I ~aid, "Y?U ';,an.~ to done,. I found that there was any amount build a new bndge·. He saId, "Well, of room for the police· barracks where we are bridge-builders, and we want to other buildings would be alongside of it give you the benefit of our knowledge and and in keeping with it. MOoreover,. I experience." I replied, "Thank you very found that there would be a saving of much. When I want to ge,t knowledge nearly £11,000 owing to variations of titles" and experience I have officers in my De- It is absolutely necessary to investigate partment who are quite competen~ to ad- all the complaints and find out e,xactIy, vise me in the matter, and I WIll take what is required. That is what r am en­their advice." The officers of the Depart- deavouring to do with regard' to these ment have one interest only, and that the bridges. I want to make sure that there interest of the State. I am advised by will be no unnecessary expenditure of' my Oofficers that it may be possible, at a public mo.ney. When this matter was (~ost' of abOout £25,OOO~certainly not more being discussed a little while ago, I was than that--to so strengthen the bridge as inflllenced, as no doubt others were, by to make it serviceable for traffic for' the- statements that were made in the another 40 years. This is a. phas~, of . the press. When I became Minister of PubliC' question that is .worthy of mvestlgatlOn. Works I found that no inquiries had been That is all I am doing. I dOo not wish to made, but still there was the impression rush in and build a new bridge if there that the bridge was in a falling condition, is no necessity for it. I certainly desire and it was urgently necessary to provide to make the bridge perfectly safe for a new one. I have had inquiries made. traffic. The fact that it had not sunk at by the engine€rs Oof my Department, so an in twelve montlis showed cle1arly that. that I may know what is the exact position. statements made in re~ard. to the bridge They were interfered with a IiUle while­had been ve·py wild indeed. Had I COID- ago owing to floods. Inquiries, however, mitted the State to the expenditure of are still going on. Reference has been £135,000 without making due inquiries, made to the Spencer-street bridge.. That I sbould have ·been at fault. 'In fact, I is a matter I have nOot yet looked into, ghould say that any man who would because I have no,t had the time. I know be guilty of such an action would there are. many reports. in the Depart-

Consolidated Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1'924.] Bill (No. "5). 571

ment but I have not been .able to give , . I them the necessary cC!l'llsideratwll. should like to remind honorable members that the Spencer-street bridge is a b~g proposition, and so far as I can a~certaHl Rosurn of m0ney has been provlded on the Loan Estimates, prepared by the last Government, for its construction. Apparently no determination re­garding its construction had been ar­rived at by OUT predecessors. I say that subject to correct-ion, but I have examined the schedule which deals with the alloca­cation of loan money which is now being raised, and there is no mention of any sum for the Spencer-street bridge. So I presume that the previous Government had not· actually determined whether the bridge should be built or not. There are many other items in the schedule, some of which are for buHdings. There is a sum of £25,000 set down for extending the accommodation at the Titles Office. Honorable members will agree with me that in all matters relating to e~penditure on neW buildings and bridges there will have to be most careful investigation. If I may be permitted to do so, I should like to refer to the question of new build­ings generally. There is a consensus of opini.on that we want a lot more accom­modation than we have at the present time. I was inclined to agree tha.t that was so, but when I became J\lIinister I began to make investigations as to the possibility of certain buildings being vacated and using them for the additional accommodation which may be required. For instance, this building we llOW occupy as a Parliament House win probably be­come vacant at the end of next year. As a matter of fact, the Federal Govern­ment has intimated to my Department that it will be vacating the Parliament House in- Spring-street at the end of next year. This building will then be avail­able, and in view of this fact I hesitate about incurring a huge expenditure in erecting other buildings. For instance, the proposed expenditure in connexion with the Titles Office is £50,000. Of course, this building we are now occupy­ing here would not be suitable for the purpose of the Titles Office, but it is a question for consideration whether we could not use this building for the ac­commodation of officers who now occupy a building adjacent to the Titles Office. That building was erected as a record office, and is peculiarly adapted for Titles Office purposes. If the officers there were

transferred to this building, some of the additional 'accommodation for the Titles Office would be atonee available!.

The HQln. W. L. R. CLARKE.-Will we not have to give this building back to the Exhibition Trustees ~

The Han. J~ P. JONES.-I do not know. What would they do with it if we did ~ It would probably be empty for the greater part of the year, as other portions o·f the building are. We must carefully conserve the finances of this State, and care must be taken to see that there is no waste expenditure of any kind. That is what I am aiming at. I have discQlvered that the,re are opportunities fOT saving mon~y in my Department. It is only a "Small matter certainly, but I ascertained tha.t the Government was pay­ing more for pe,trol than I was as a p~i­vate citizen. I stopped that. These are

. ma,tters in which a man with business e,~perience is able to help the Govern­ment.. It is obvious that the proposal to 'erect new buildings and bridges, which are tremendously costly, will have to be carefully considered by the engineers 0'£ the GOlvernment befo're any commitments are made in regard to them. Mr. Russell Olarke referred to the need for the ex·· penditure of money on country ro,ads a~d bridges. If we have money to spend In this direction there is certainly plenty of opportunity . .of doing so in the country.dis­tric.ts. I know that from the observatIOns I have ma,de, and from deputations which have waited upon me. Expenditure in this way in the cou11try districts ~in un­doubt€dly help the settlers. It wIll pro­vide a means for them to get to the rail­way stations with their produce, an.d.If there is money to bur11, let us burn It In the country. Mr. Russell Clarke also re­ferred to the fact that I am a city mem­ber. I am, but I do nOit think there i~ any member of this House who is more anxious or more determined to see that country interests .are assisted in regard to roads and bridges than I am. I am endeavouring to do .all I can to aid in that direction. If we are going to ·ha va progress in this country, that progress is more likely to be achieved by helping the man on the land than in most other ways. There are men on the land who are suf­fering from a, number of difficulties and inconveniences, and I have every reason to believe that some of the roads they have to tra.vel over are in an absolutely deplorable condition. I had a deputation

572 Oonsolidated Revenue [COUNCIL.] Bill (No.5).

to·-day from the Otway Forest. The :stories they told might almost make one's heart bleed, and we should do all we ca.n to help those in the outlying parts of the 'State to make homes for themse1lves, and, Ulcidentally, increase the wealth of Victoria,. I hope Parliament will see tu it that these men are assisted in their very laudable object of building hom8s for themselves, and developing the State and bringing about. decentralization 'There are far too many peoplel in the city 'of Melbourne. Within the next year 01·

two the position will be acute. We should conserve our energies a13 far as we nossibly can. Whatever energy we have to spare we should utilize in .assisting the people in country districts. If there are other ma,tters I should ha,ve referred to I ahall be ple~sed to deal with them at a later stage.

The Hon. J. K. MERRITT.-I want to thank the Minister of Public Works for having given such a thoroughly sound reply to the questiOlls I have raised. I am. particularly pleased that he has taken in hand an investigation of the Hawtho,rn bridge,. As I was reslJonsible for certain J3tatements in this House, I wish to ex­plain the authority that I based them upon. I have in my hand a report, pre'­pared by Mr. A. Romilly Bruford, city ellO"ineer of Hawthorn. He says-

A co'nference of the Hawthorn and Richmond councils and t.he Tramway Board was held in ,Tuly. These three bodies agreed to pay the cost of investigation. 'fhe city engineers of Rich­mond a.nd Hawthorn were instructed to pre­pa.re a joint report on the bridge, and take any necessary precaution to safeguard the travel­ing public.

Further on, he states--The joint engineers reported that the fourth

or southern girder of the bridge had its top boom destroyed. That the whole bridge was in compression owing to the action of the Hawthorn abutment, which had moved towards Richmond. The whole bridge had shortened by this compression to the eX.tent of at least 1 foot, that rivets were sheermg, and, gener­ally speaking, that the bridge, although not in danger of any immediate collapse, was be com­ina progressively more dangerous, and that he~vy, fllist-moving traffic over it would have to be stopped.

Tha.t is a very serious statement, and It was my duty to bring it under the notice of Parliament. I am very glad to hear that there is no immediate danger of the bridge collapsing. I am glad, also, th~t the J.Vlinister haa taken steps to ascertaIn the true po-sition, and that he has under­ta.ken to S@~ that whatever work is abso·-

lutely necessary shall be done. The Min­ister has not referred to the Victoria-street bridge. He stated some m:onths ago that that bridge wal3 dange'ro'us, and, no doubt, he will have it attended to.

The Hon. H. 1. COHEN.-This di.~­cussion started with 'references to the Hawthorn bridge and the Spencer-street bridge,. It has now resolved itself into '\, dis~ertation on the virtues of the present Mini,3try. I do not object. too 1\1r. Jones taking whatever credit he can to himself for what has been done since he has been in office, but I do object to his doing that at the expense of the late Ministry. .1 hold in my hand a· number O'f Hansard, in which Mr. JOones, himself, fathers the following statement:-

At the last meeting of the House. I raised the question of the state of these bridges, be­cause for some time I have obs'erved that. al­though the structures were in a dangerous con­dition, the tendency was to muddle along with regard to these matters instead of tackling them in a proper business-like manner.

Now, Mr. 'Merritt has given the, sOource of his informatiOon, which was founded on the report of an engineer. When we get a man like Mr. Jones, fOol' whom we. ha ve the highest regard, a ma.n whom we know dOoes not ordinarily make reckles~ statements, stating in the House that hI), himself, has observed that the structures are in a, dangerous condition, one may be pardoned f9'r accepting his statement, and feeling some trepidation with rega.rd to the condition of the bridges. It is idle to say that no investiga­tions were made by the late Government. Investigations were made under my direc­tion. The reGult of those investigatiolLs were stated in the debate on the Haw­thorn and. Kew bridges in May last. .I. said-

As we are advised that there is no immediate 'danger, it is thought that it would be better to put through a Bill which will deal with this, in common with other bridges ..

Mr. Jones advO'cated what was the polic.v of the late Government-the creation of a body too deal with these bridges. I told the, House-

l have an appointment for to-morrow morn­ing for the purpose of finalizing the Bill deal-ing with it. .

That is to sa y , a Bill to deal with these and other bridges. Fo,r anyone t.o get up and tell the House that the la,be Gove,rnment did nothing, knowing perfectly well that it was part of their policy to appOoint such

Consolidated Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill (No.5). 573

an authoritv who, alone could deal with . these mattel:s, is not, I think, putting the

matter quite fairly to the late Uovern­ment. If that authority had been ap­pointed~and it would have been ap­pointed had the late Government had an .opportunity of bringing in a Bill-the duty would have been caGt upon it vf determining whether that bridge should be repaired or renewed. All that the Governmen t of the day we,re thetn con­eerned with was that there was no im­mediate, dang-e,r from the bridge being left as it stood. I have inspected the Hawthorn bridge, and for some reason or other that is not apparent to the lay­man's eye, one pa,rt of it has been closed to traffic. As regards the. remainder, the public. are warned that they can gOo over it at their own risk. People. are not allowed to drive oveor it except at a low speed-5 to 8 miles an hour spe,ak­jng from memory. Certainly the speed must not exceed 8 miles an hour. You, Mr. Chairman, in the course Oof the debate I have already quoted from, observed-

The Minister, with his legal mind, knows that the municipality of Hawthorn may pos­sibly be landed in tremendous damages.

Therefore you were yourself led to believ.e that there was imminent dangelr from this bridge. Mr. Merritt drew a harrowing picture. He' said-

Only to-day a I5-ton steam roller travel­ling to Preston lost control and smashed the paling fence down and stopped within a few feet of a 50-ft. fall into the river.

This drew from l\ir. Jones, in a voice of horror, the interjection, "Did tha.t hap­pen to-day~" It makes all the difference whethe'f one occupies the Ministetrial bench or whether one do!es not. I am prepared to give Mr. Jones every credit for what he ha.s done. He has done pre.­cisely the right thing. I hope never to be wanting in the fair criticism that such a course of conduct demands, but he ought to be at least fair to, the late Govern­ment and tOo remembe,r that the course we adopted on that occasiOon was the, pro­per one. We ascertained that there was no immediate da.nge~ and we took steps to as speedily as possible consummate what he himself .has been agitating for for years, viz., the creation of a body that would have the power and authority and the necessary skill to deal with all these bridges. One word more in connexion with this matte,r. Mr. Jones and Oother members who have interestR..d themselves

in the policy of thel late, Gove,rnment will know that their intention was to have these bridges financed eutirelly out Df metropolitan moneys.

The Hon. Dr. HARRIs.-The Mel­bourne and lVletropolitan Board of Works would control only bridges within the met.ropolitan area.

The Hon. H. 1. COHEN.-That ma·v be so. At any rat.e, the building of the~' bridges would have been' a matter of metropolitan finance. N Ott one penny would have come out of the general taxpayer's pocket. The statement that the cost of the Spencer­street bridge would have been a charge on the State as a· whole is not a fair one. That was not the, idea of t.hel late Govern­ment at all. But whethe,r that bridge were: dealt with out q-f city finance or not, I do say that it would bet of great beneSt to· ·the whole community.

The Hon. W. L. R. CLARKE.-How would it be financed 1

The Hon. ·H. 1. COHEN.-All auth­ority would be constituted and a levy made on city prope1rty. Not O'n-e' penny would have come out of the coffers of the, ge,neral community.

The Hon. E. L. KIERNAN.-That has not been the procedure with other bridges.

The Ho'll. H. 1. COHEN.-NOo, the late GDvernment in a statesmanlike, man­ner desired to bring about· a new method of financing the construction .Df these bridges. I am glad that Mr. Jones and I think on parallel lines in this regard, and I wish him God-speed in carrying out the policy of the late. Govelrnment. Mr. Jones's mind must be at fault when he says we did nO'thing in this matte,r. Now, in re­spect of the police barracks Oon St. Kilda­road-he is in the happy position ap­parently of being able to interfere with another Department. He can .tell the Chief Secre1tary what he can do and what he can not do. Wei we're· urged in this House by members of his pa.rty not only to spend money on that particular site, but to spend more mone,y than wet had cOIntemplat-ed spending sO' as to make the building congenial to its surroundings on St. Kilda-road. If those were not the exact words that was the effect of arguments advanced by those membe'rs, especially by Mr. Disne'Y. Questions we,re put on the notice-paper, and all sorts of expedients were adopted tOo' keep the Government up to the work of building a

574 Oonsolidated iRevenue [COUNCIL.] Bill (No.5).

magnificent structure "Wort11;y of its sur­roundings. Other matters were m~n­tioned by Mr. J'ones \'that were qUIte foreign to the questions raised,but we need not discuss them. So long as he carries ou -in. the way hel ha.s clone and conserves the public mone,y, he will ha;ve the support of everry member of this House.

The Hon. J. P .• TONES (Minister of Pumlic vVorks) .. -Mr. Cohen has referred to my stat·e,ment in a relcentdeba.te on the Hawthorn and Kew bridges in sup­port of Mr. l\lenitt, but hel has not read the whole of the report .of what I ·said. I do not blame him for that. I am sorry if in my statement ofthel facts I ha,ve, ill any way reflected on the late Gover~ment. Mr. Merritt had indicated tha,t I was ne!gleding the. subject, '0·r 'at aU .events tbat the're was a delay and tha.t thel rna t­te,r was not reooaving thel attention hel hoped it would receive. This, of course, made it compulsory 'On me to state the a.ctual -facts. If in dGing so· I cast any rellootion on my honorablel fri-end (Mr. Cob en) , I am so,rry fGr it. I am sure he will acquit me! of -any desire to r~fle.ct on him in any way. 'The, diff·erence be­tween the Ja.te Government's treatm8nt olf the case and my tr-e.atment is this: Mr. Cohen said his Gov€,rnment W€'l'e waiting for the purpose. of cr~at.ing a,n authorit.y ,to bmld bl'ldge~. If tne bridge were ·asdangerous ,as It appeared from the trappings around it,· and from tbe statement made that people crossed it at their own risk, I told the deputation that we .cert~inly were. not going to wait for the creatIOn of a bridge­building authority. If we waited. f~r a bridge-building authority and the brIdge fell down, that would not be very mucb. satisfaction to the people drowned.

The Hon. H. I. COHEN. - I said we were advised that there w.as no immediate danger.

The HOll. J. P. JONES.-I .am deal­ing ,vjth what the deputation put to me. Yr. Merritt said it wa'Spositi:vely dan­gerous. He made his statement, and had engineers at the de-putation, who said that the bridge was in 'a positive state of dan­ger, and that there was no .other way out except to build 'a bridg-e immediately. They 'Stated that a new bridge was abso­lutely necessary. I. told them that we knew what waiting for a bridge-building al1thol'ity would mean. There would be

conflict of opinlOn as to the type of authority to 'be created, and it would be impossible tOI get a bill of that nature passed through Parliament in one session. We know the difficulty there was in con­nexion with the Church-street bridge. That proposal was debated for a consider­able time, and it was on the tapis for years before the culminating point was reached when the construction of the bridge was started. I felt that there was no need to wait for the creation of .a bridge-building authority. The thing ;to

:find out straight away was the engineer's view concerning the extent to which the bridge was dangerous, and to find out ,a way to avoid the necessity cjf building a new bridge. A new bridge would cost £135,000. I set my mind to investigate the question whether it would be .ad­visable to repair the existing structure. That is what we are investigating now. It is far better to take a little time in in­vestigating that ·question, and if we CaJJ: save the State -about £110,000 it is worth while saving it.

The Hon. H. I. COHEN.-Is the bridge dangerous, in your opinion?

T.he Hon. J. P. JONES. - I cannot say; I am not an expert. Statements made to the House by Mr. Merritt and statements that appeared in the press indi­cated that the bridge was positively dan­gerous.

The Hon. H. I. COHl~ ... ~.-The engi­neers said it was.

The Hon. J'. P. JONES.-I am not going to accept the whole of the honor­able member's reading of my speech.

The Hon. H. L COHEN.-I read its: very words.

The Hon. J.P. JONE8.-If the hon­orable member goes on stating it much more, I -shan think that he is putting up a joke .. We are making investigations. I think those are the right lines to go ·on. If the bridge is as dangerous as they said, the matter should be rectified at once. It is no use waiting for the crea­tion of an authority. That would take to(} long. The pioper steps are being taken to make investigations, and they are going on as quickly as possible. I will ask thn engineer to determine whether the bridge can be repaired to make it perfectly safe for the public.

The Ron. R. R. S. ABBOTT.-I have listened with great interest to the infor­mative speech of the Minister. I must say

Oonsalidated Revenue [30 SE£TEMBER~ 1924.] Bill (No .. 5). 575

that it is extremely refreshing to mem­bers of the Country party and to country members generally to find ~h~t ,,:e are getting back to the era of l\llmste~Ial re­sponsibility and that lVIr. Jones IS pre­pared to a~cept resl?onsibility in. the,se matters. Even as a Clty member he I~ pIe­pare'd to see th~t ino!dinate expendltur.e, that is not reqUIred" IS not undertaken In the city and that the country shall get a fair de~l in its requirements. We know that the Labour party has been branded as a party that will borrow recklessly and gpend recklessly. We know that they can get strong support, not only from honor­able members;, but from the press when ~x­penditure is carried out in the great CIty of J\{elbourne. The gentleman whom the Minister has followed has certainly en­deavoured to m.ake an ex parte appeal. One would almost imagine that he was addressing a jury in the way he was appealing to prejudices in this matter. We know that the Government he repre­sented 'created board after' board to deal with matters, and practically to disp.ens.e with the responsibility either of mdl­vidual Ministers or tne Government. Mr. Cohen has said he was. prepared to create a Board to construct bridges, possibly at greater ~o~ than has been outlined by the lVfmIster; and t~at t1:te question of the cost of constructIOn and other interests would go absolutely by the board. If the money wer~ wanted for the authority to be created, It wo~ld have to be borrowed, and country requIre­ments, such as development and transport, could go hang. The same' GovernTI?-ent were going to hand over the MetropolItan Gas Oompany's works to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works. They wanted to do, anything rather th~n accept Ministerial responsibility, even WIth such a necessary utility in M.elbourne. What ,:e country people have had,. to com~la:n of in reference to the natIOnal admIllls­tration for the past seven or eight years has been that the requirements of J\£el­bourne were paramount to everything that took place. Mention has been made of the Spencer~street bridge and the enormous ,expenditure that will be necessary to c?n­struct it. .A.i3 a country member, I WIsh to say that the country people a~e abs?­Intel:v 0ppoRed to enormous expendIture In, thnt . part of the city for several reasons. One is that the construction of that bridge is going· to interfere with the £500,000

spent by the Melbourne HarboUl' Trust. That money was borrowed for necessaxy works on the credit of the whole State, and not particularly on the credit of the City of Melbourne, in order to provide the facilities afforded by the swinging basin and for bringing ships right up to the heart of the city. The chairman of the Melbourne Harbour Trust him­self in his evidence, said distinctly that the' creation of a bridge was going to block the river and destroy all the important work that had been done by the Trust, [md it was going to fl:y in the face of all experience gained by other places. Every other place has endeavoured to bring ships ll1to the heart of the city. Blocking Spencer-street and that important part of the river is going practically to destroy what has been the work of years. The Melbourne Harbour' Trust had endea,­voured to make provision to enable over­seas ships to. be bro.ught right up into the centre of the city. That is a matter that requires to be considered, and I nope it will be. Jfrom the independent and thoroughly comprehensive VIew that. the Minist.er has taken, he has shown that he has a broad grip, and that his mind will take him away from the immediate city that he represents~ I think the Min­ister and' the Government are to be con­gratula.ted on the very solid, substantial, and reasonable- view that he has' put for­ward w.ith "eference t.o t.he p,xpenditure of such a very large amount.

The Hon. H. 1. COHEN.-The Minister has not told us that he is going to. build the bridge.

The Hon. R. H. S. ABBOTT.-I hope he will give it the consideration it d~ serves. The building of that bridge is going to still further congest traffic in Flinders-street. Mr. Cohen got into the limelight, and no further. in reference to a scheme that was to deal with the con­gestion of traffic in Spencer-street and Swanston-street. but tlere are other methods of dealing with the traffic from the southern side of the Yarra. I ~han o'ppose in every way possible the outlay of £800,000 on a bridge at 8pencer-;-street, whether it is' municipal, Harbour Trust, or Government money.

The Hon. E. L. KIERN AN.-I rlo not wish to carryon the deb~t.P.I nor continue the dispute between the ]'I1njstt'T and hi~ prf'n eceSf:!or. .

The Hon .. H.,!.. COHEN.-There is no dispute.

576 Consolidated Revenue [COUNCIL.] Bill (No.5).

The Hon. E. L. KIERNAN.-Mr Oohen quoted remarks that tne Minister had made, but I do not think ·he put a fair interpretation on them. The Min­ister stated.-

I have observed that, although the structures were in a dangerous condition, .the tendency was to muddle along with rega,rd to these matters, instead of tackling them in a proper business-like manner.

I only wanted to make that clear to the House.

The Hon. W. L. R. CLARKE.-On the item nO'w befO're the Committee I desire to call attent.ion to the matter of our public libraries. Last year we passed a large vote fO'r' the Public Library in Melbourne, and it was understood then that some att.entiO'n would be given to the requirements of the public libraries throughout the country. There is no better way in which we can decentralize frO'm l\1-elbourne t.o t.he country than by giving the people in the country reason­able opportunities of making themselves acquainted with lite,rature and art. By a large expenditure in Melbourne we con­duce to a form of centralization which is unfair to the cO'untry. I think I shall have £lie sympathy of 1V1r. Abbott and Mr. Bell when I say that we thought that we were justified in anticipating that some substantial provision would' be made for the count.ry libraries this year, and my object in rising is to ascertain whet.her the present GO'vernment aTe disposed to view the question in a favorable light. I am sure that they will be anxious, as were the previous Government, that all our efforts to make the people familiar with literature and art should not be con­fine,d t.o Melbc.urne, but that the country libraries also should be generously dealt with. One thing in particular might be dO'ne. In the Melbourne Art Gallery there are a great many pictures, which, when they were bought, we thought to be very fine. The trustees of the M.el bourne Art Gallery are now in a position to ac­quire pictures of greater merit, but some of t.heir earlier purchases have been put away in the store room. I think that much good would be done if some oJ these latter pictures were, if not given to the galleries in the different count.ry cities, at all events lent to them, and I make that suggestion in the hope that it will receive favorable consideration.

The Hon. H. KECK.-I desire to call attention to item 76, "Furtherance of mining industry, £2,300." About a

month ago, when we were dealing with the last Supply Bill, an honorable member for the Northern Province brought up the question of the granting of assistance to the mining industry of Bendigo and dis­trict. I suppoTted him in the request that he made. The £2,300 seems to me to be a small amount for this purpose. We made a strong appe,al on behalf of the grea~ ~old-mining city o;f Bendigo,.­great In its day-a.nd we stressed the point that there were side lines-shallow workings-which un-doubtedly contained gold, and most likely payable gold. I would have been much better pleased if this proposed vote had been something like £10,000. I ask the Minister of Mines if it is intended that any of the small amount set down is to be expended in the Bendigo district as a special gra.nt for the assistance of mining in shallow levels'.

The Hon. R. H. S. ABBOTT.-I would like to repeat what I said on a former occasion as to the desirability O'f the Min­ister of Mines considering what material assistance he can give to the gold-mining industry, not only to t.he district repre­sented by the honO'rable member whO' haE!: just resumed his seat, but to my own pro­vince. Something might be done at Heath­cote and Rushworth, and throughout that district if a properly conceded system were adopted. I made reference to the taxation under which t.he mining indus­try ~as suffering when it was successfuL I referred to the, levying of taxes on the dividends and profits of gold mines that have happened to be profitable during the ye-~r. The r~alization of tho-se profits might have meant ten or more years of COI11-

tinuous WGTk. The Federal Government have agreed to exempt the profits of min-. jng from income tax. I shouEd like the .l\1inister of Mines to take seriously into consideration the possibilit.y of following -suit in that respect in connexion with the taxation of di vidends which in­volves at times a very severe' impost on the mining industry. In SOl].1e mining areas it is quite a recog­nized thing for investors and specu­lators who have drawn dividends from one mine to put the money into prospect­ing work in connexion with other mines. I showed that in connexion with one par­ticular mine in the Bendigo district thou­sands o.f pounds had to be paid in taxa­tion,. although the mine had just begun to YIeld a profit. The taxation was·

Oonsolidated Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill (No.5). 577

on dividends that had been paid in respect of the previous twelve months, and at the time when it fell due the mine was not doing so well. It IS quite evident that this taxation co:uld , with great advantage to the industry, and without any serious injury to the re­venue, be remitted, and that certainly would be a step in the right direction. If the Government are prepared to find a sum of mone'Y to assist in prospecting and developing, in the sinking of shafts Q1r the driving of leve>ls, honorable members re­presenting the mining districts will, I am sure, be Q1nly too pleased to supp<Jrt them in any proposals they make. Under pre­sent conditions, when gold is absolutely sta tionary as to value, and the cost oJ matetrial and labour has so largely in­creased, it is easy to see that we must soon come to a dead end so far as this most important industry is conce,rned. If in any portion of the State of Victoria a rich and payable reef is found it not only employs a large amo·unt of labour, but gives assistance to many cognate indus­tries. I would again urge the Ministel' of 1\1ines to give bis serious attention to this matter. I would point out that the Stafe gets revenue from the mining in­dustry in many ways, and the Federal Government collects taxation from almost everything that the miner uses in con­nexion with his work-his steel, his ex­plosives, his fuses, his candles, and parti­cularly his carbide. Everything the miner uses is heavily taxed, and any relief that could be afforded, if only in a small way, such as the remission of taxation on profits or diVIdends, would be appreciated, and would show that the Government have sympathy with the mining industry, and are prepared to do what they can to make it a success.

The Hon. J. STERNBERG.-I have frequently advocated that greater con­sideratiQ1n should be extended to t.he min­ing industry. It is about time that the Government recognized the importance of the industry. and endeavoured to improve its position by the development of mines on lines of reef that have not been ex­plored, particularly in the Bendigo dis­trict. We have a number of side lines of reef which could be developed by the ex­penditure of a reasonable sum of money, and it is t.he duty of the Government to' do eve-rything they can to render ass~st­ance to an industry which has been so Im­portant a factor in bringing about· the

development and prosperity of the State. Unfortunately, mining is now under a cloud. That is 1,1Ot the fault of those whO' are connected with the mines, but is due to' the force of circumstances. I would again urge the Minister of Mines to pay a visit to one of the mining centres, and make himself acquainted with the. opportunities that are offered, and the developments that have been taking place in COnneXlO'll with the shallow levels. Mining in its crude form was payable in the past, and it may be made payable again. It behoves the Government to gO' about this matter in a business-like, way, with a VIew to bringing about the result for which we are all so a'nxious-the building up of the mining industry of this Stat.e. There is another matter to which I wish to refer­There are a number of shafts still un­covered iri the BendigO' district and other centres, and I would urge the Minister of :Mines to take action with a view to' protecting life and limb. The Gove,rn­ment deserves every commendation for what it has already done in the way of covering up unused shafts. We are grate­ful to the :Minister for what he has done in that regard in the Bendigo district, but we should like him to' go further. At Eaglehawk and in other mining centres monety could be judiciously expended in the covering of unused shafts.

The Han. G. L: GOUDIE.-During the short time I was administering the Mines Depar~ment it appeared to me that a good deal of the effort that was put forward by prospectoTs meant practically a waste of money. They were putting down shafts in old worked-out ground. If the Minist.ry are going to' make a fairly large sum a,vailable for prospecting, I would suggest that a good deal of it might be spent in prospecting :j,reas t.hat have not yet been touched. I was very much surprised when I went through the' applications to see that the activities we,re all connected with the old mining centres. I think myseH that if ever mining is going to' have a new life in this Statet, it is not going to be in the old worked-out mining centres. It will be brought about by new discoveries.

The· Hon. H. KECK.-By side-lines.

The Han. G. L. GOUDIE.-Yes. 'Ve know that the ;main reefs in BendigO' and in Ballarat, and the alluvial workings in

Consol!idated Revenue [COUNCIL.] Bil~ (No.5)..

other pa.rts of the State, so far as pi'o,fit­able wonting is concerned, are within measu.rable distance· of. being finished. It is only by the·.opening up oJ new country that the mining industry can: get a new leuGe (Jf Lie .. 11 money were spent. in that direction there is. a. possibility-it may not be a very brilliant possibility-of new fields being discovered. Those fields might not be very fall from the old mining dis­tricts. There may be continua.tions of the reefs or leads that only require to' be opclled up. If money were t3pent in testing new ground,. I think it would be one of the best investments the Government could undertake.

The Hon. Dr.. HARRIS.-I, too, rep­resent a province in which there has been a great deal of mining, but I consider tliat mining is under a; cloud at the pre­sent time. l:t requires' a very rich mining proposition to- pay anything- above ex­penses, and I think the Mines· Department is pretty wise, in not spending a ver:y large sum of money at the present time. I am a grtat advocate of c~.rrying out investi­gations, not only for gold, but for coal a.nd' other minerals. I believe that in this baIting pe.riod o·f' the mining industry the Minister of Mines should set the experts C!)f his Department to the work of in­vestigating tue mineral resources of this State in order that. the necessary information may De availahle at any time that is favorable for the development of those resources. I believe though, wit.h Mr. Goudie', that the grants that aFe at present a;llocated· by the ~1ines Depart­ment are almost entirely without results, and I believe that the statistics will prove that to be the case. They are being frit­tered away in old mining ventures by €>Jd min-ers who g.et a little grant he~e and a litt143- grant· there, but nothing is d-one towards locating the mineral wealth of this State. I believe· that Victoria con­tains as many rich propositions as have· already been wOllked, but it will requi.re a very efficient Department and' the judi­cious expendit':ITe of money in order to· locate tUb fields. Disco·veries may be­J'Ylufh p]thrr where' gold or other minerals have already been found near the surface, or' as a result of boring. I helieve there are great possibilities of finding coal in the uc,rth 0'E Victoria. An immense field of coal has been found at OaklandR, in ]\T f'W Routh W Ille~, 30 miles from· Wah­?~nyah, and· the lie· of the country an<~ the cnaracter of the l'ocks indicate that

Bi field of coal. which may be: a little bit deeper than. that at Oaklands exists in the' north of Victoria. I believ.e the lVlin­istetr of lVlines: could, with gre,at satisfac-tion to. this State,. ,spend a oertain sum of money in boring the jurassic formations which. are known by the Bepa:dment to exist in that part O'f the: State. If he will inquire' from the Geologi'Cal Survey Braneh he will find that his officers kna.w that those jurassic> rocks exist i:n the north of Victoria. They have nev.er been deve­loped, and have never heen bored. We are not without hope that we may have black coal measures' in Victoria e·qual to a;ny in Auetralia.. Money could be judi­ciously spent in finding whether they exist in the reeks in which coal is known. to occur.

The· Hon. D. L. McN.A~1:ARA (Minis;.. tel' of. lVlines) .. -The amount· of £2,300 which appears- in- the li~t of Supply, oppo­site· the item "Furtherance of the mining industry," is £01' one month only. It is rather more- than one-twelfth of. the, ex:p>enditure for the year.

T'he Hon. G. L. GOUDJE.-The annual expenditure is· £20,000.

The· HOTI. D. L. M0NAMARA.-It has been less than that for some years past, and! this year' will be' no, e~ception. If horr:wrable members are an·xions to. see furtner developments in this particular direction, it will mea:n additional ex­pense,. and: tha~ win have to be provided for' in the Budget statement. On a pre­vi-oills, Supply Bill, I m.ell-tioned that over a period of twenty years something like £300.,000 had been spent on the develop­ment of the mining indust~y, and that, as a balance against that-cash returned and machine,ry held by the Depa..rtment­there was something less than· £100 000

. showing a. loss of £200,000. It is n~t s~ much to be regretted that there was a loss to ther revenue of the State as that the' money expended did not produce the results t'o the people concerned: that were hoped fo·r. If those results' had been obtained, the value' of the gold- won would have been in circulation, and the countJJy would have received a benefit in­directl~, if not directly.

The Ho'll. J. STERNBERG.-Conditions at present. are· very different from what they ha:ve· he'en: in the- past.

The; Hon. D. L. ~1cNAMARA.-Most peo'P1e who speak of mining' say, " There is a lot, of gold- in the ground: but there is"

Oonsolidated Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Bill (No.5). 579

a lot of earth :over it. 'That. is the trouble." The 00& of ohtaining gold lin' the present circumstances, and the value o·f the gold when obtained, render the conditions unfavorable. I have not. lost sight I()f thesuggestioln made by Mr. Abbott on .a previous iQlCCaSioll that the Comm<Jnw€alth Government might be in­duoed to subsidize this indmtry in some w.ay, so that go,ld would be wo~:th .a. littJe Illore than it is now. If that were d.one, it might be prodita.ble tOo work some mines tha,t it is nOow unprofitable tOI work. It is no use suggesting that the Sta~ shOtuld spend considerable. sums of mone,y if no prorfitable result win be obtained. We are just continuing om the lines that have .been followed for thel last fOtur or five years.

The Hon. Dr. HARRIS.-But haNe yOtU varied the, expenditure 7

The Hon. D. L. McNAMARA.-vVe try to meete.ach case as it comes along. Mr. Goudie, who was Minister of Mines for a time, knows tha,t when applications come in they are jnvestigated by officers of the Department, and when the grant is allocat.ed their recommenda,tions arre taken intOi consideration. I believe that we should go in for a little more research work than we are doing, and shou1d en­deavour to find .(leposits that have an inaustrial value, such as coal and oil. We have t.wo drills at the presernttime boring for oil in the vVestern district. The last report I saw was to the effect that they had pierced through two seams of co a! , but that, though the coal was of good quality, the seamS! were not sufficiently thick tOI make them a, pay­able proposition. To-day I ha.ve given instructions in comnexion with sending another boring machine to Gippsland. The prospects seem to be sufficiently good to warrant one or tWOI bores being pu.t down :in the district cQIllcerned, and they will test. the contention OIf the local people that therel is eoal in the district. If there is anything like substantial evidence that there is a, prospect -of discovering payable seams of coal in the North-Eastern district or the Murray V.aTIey, as suggested by Dr. Harris, I will take the firstoppor­f;unity of ha.ving tests made.

The Hon. G. L. GmmIE.-There ar.e indications of coal.

'The Ron. D. L. McNAMARA.-The fact that there is a coal-bearing area within a reasonab1e distance of the border should be an indication to the geological

officernof the possibilities in that direc­tioll of adjoining areas in Victoria. Mr. Sternberg referred to the covering of abandoned mining shafts in the Bendigo­district. That is being pushed {)n as speedily as possible. I am 'Satisfied that splendid work is being done there. Within the n-ext few days a staff of men under au able superviso,r, MI'. Wagstafi'e, will be going to Eagleha.wk, where about twooty of the more dangerous shafts will be dealt with. It is not possible t(} attend to. them an this year. I hav-e now allocated the £15,000 available to. districts where ,on the reports the abandoned 'shafts seem to. be most dangerous. I hope to be able to ask Parliament £01' a further grant in order to place a1l these old shafts in such a condition that there will be no. risk 'Of human life being sacrificed. Since the last Supply Bill went through I have visited the Stawell district. 'They in­formed me that there are some very dan­gerous shafts there, and that over a num­ber of years five or 'six lives have beeu lost. I feel that very much, and am an..'{iou.s to see that it will not recur. Everything that can possibly be done wi_th the amo~nt o.f money available will be done to. prevent any further loss of life. ~f.r. Abbott mentioned that the Federal Parliament had decided to make remissions 0.£ taxation in regard to. mining dividends. Of course, as far as the State is concerned, that win be a matter of Gcivernment policy, and' an anllouncement may possibly be made in the Budget statement. In the meantime I shall bring the matter under the notice of the Treasurer, who will be able to. conf-er with the taxatio.n officers to see if it is a workable proposition.

The Hon. H. KEOK.-In connexion with the vote for the Forests Depart­ment, I am certainly in favour of any­thing which the Commissio~ can do to. increasE' QUI' 'Supplies of timber. I lUlder­stand that they contemplate extensive, planting on the sandy eoastline in the near future. I hope that the efforts will be succe.ssful, fo.r timber is a veryvalu­able commodity which we cannot do with­out. UJlfortuna.tely we have not a suf­ficient supply of our own timber, but I must not refer here to the restriction of impo'rtations owing to the dut.y. I wish to refer particularly to the position in th~ Shire of Stratbfieldsaye, where I have

580 Oonsolidated Revenue [COUNCIL.] Bill (No.5).

some property, and so has Mr. Abbott. That shire contains some 60,000 or 70,000 acres of State forests. As a result, there is heavy traffic over 10 or 12 or 16 miles of certain main r.oads in the shire. This winter the roads were cut up dreadfully by that traffic. They were reduced to a most deplorable condition. When, how­ever, we made an appeal to the Forests Oommission for assistance to repair the roads we were met with the statement that the Department does nOot pay mOore than working expenses. When a muni­cipality contains so many th.ousands of acres of State forests it should surely re­ceive some little help from the Depart­ment in the matter of road repairs. The shire council has made repeated appli­cations to the Commission, but has not succeeded in getting any portion of the revenue which the Department obtains from royalties. I ,,,ish to voice my opinion here that the shire has not been treated properly. While I wish to help the Forests Commission as much as I can, I maintain that when the shire is put to so much expense in keeping the roads in order simply because of the heavy traffic from the forests, the council should get some share of the r.oyalties which the De­partment derives from the timber.

The Han. A. M. ZW AR.-I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to the efforts which are being made by the Com­missioners in the development of forest areas in the district which I represent by the growing of pinu,s insignis. Up in our valley there are magni:ficent plantations of those pines, but, fr.om what I can gather, it is quite possible that they are of practically, no commercial value. Last year they planted some 500,000 trees of that variety, and they are growing beautifully. The ques­tion arises, however, whether they are of sufficient commercial value to justify t'he expense of putting them in. Within a mile of Ararat there were about 2,000 trees of the pinus insignis variety. They were 2 or 3 feet through. Saw­millers in Melbourne were asked for a quotation on the condition that they grubbed the trees out and took the timber 'away. No quotations from the city w€,rere­ceived. Finally permission was given to cut the trees down, and 9·~d. e,ach was received for them. In the grounds of the Kew Asylum recently there were some magni­ficent specimens up to 3 feet through, and

the same thing occurred in regard to them. Saw-millers were asked what they w.ould give if they grubbed them out and took them away, and the reply was" Nothing." So they were permitted to grub them out a.nd take them away without paying any­thing. Surely there must be something wrong. There are ten or fifteen varieties of magni:ficent commercial pines that will grow quite as luxuriantly and success­fully here as the pinus insignis. Why do not the Forests Commission concentrate their efforts .on the growth of pines of commercial value ? Upon waste lands around Yallourn pines . have been planted, which, it is claimed. will be of commercial value in nine years. Apparently the tiinber is odourless, and, therefore, very suitable for the making of butter boxes. There seems to be some lack of knowledge in the Forests Depart­men t, which leads to the growing of pinus insignis, when there are other varieties of great commercial value that could be grown.

The Hon. J. K. 1fERRITT.-In con­nexion with the votes for the Health De­partment, I wish to refer to alarming statements which are sometimes made with regard to the existence of venereal disease. A few ye.ars ago legislation was passed, and the question of venereal disease was discussed at great length. The Department., it was then supposed, would establish .clinics wh€,re sufferers could be attended to. It was hoped that, as a result of the administration of the Act, venereal disease would be to some extent suppressed or reduced. I recently saw in the daily press a statement by a man who is supposed to know what is going on that the state of affairs in regard to that disease is still alarming. I know that the Minister of Publio Health is taking a great jnterest in the matter, and I think it would be very interesting to the Hous'e and the public if he would say .something with regard to the administration of the Act, and inform us whether the disease has been reduced to any extent. In my opjnion, some amendment of the Act is necessary, and more drastic steps should be taken to. reduce the disease, which is so prevalent in the community.

The HOll •• T. P. JONES (Minister of Publio Health);-I am sorry that I have nOot the facts relating to venereal disease with me. I have

Consolidated Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Bill (No.5). 581

·a large amount of information, but The Hon. J. P. JONES.-Will the it i3 nc't in :'l1y bag tQ..-pight. The ques- hono.ra.ble member tell me how we can tioIl id a v('r~' difficult one to handle. 1 deal with t~is problem ~ I am prepared have seen it stated in the press that sana- to do anythmg which he can prove tOi me toriums shonlo be provided for people will be Q1f pra.ctical value. It is all very sufferi ng from venereal 'disease. If we well to. talk about solving these problems, set out to do that we should have to pro- but qUIte another matter to find a solu­vide accommodati.on for perhaps 20,000· tion. It seems to. me we will have to go people. T,hat is what my officers tell me. back to' the individual and, by education, Honorable members can see that that is endeavour to~ inculcate in the minds of entirely bey~nd the capacity of parents the gre,at responsibility they have this country. . Since the Act o.f 1917 in bringing up their children. If parents was passed, I think we have dealt will only inculcate in the minds of their with something like 40,000 cases at children the need for cleanliness the need clinics. That gives an idea Q1f the for right and 'decent living-the' only way numbc.:r of pe.ople suffering from 'the by which people can live happy lives-­disease. As I say, it is a very difficult then they will do something tQlwards solv­problem to deal with, because the bulk of ing this problem. We must get the yDung the people affected with the disease are people to recognize the hideousness of able to carry on their occupations. They venereal disease. go. to the clinics fOir the purpose of getting The HDn. Dr. HARRIs.-DDn~t YDU treatme~lt, and the difficult prDblem is think the Jews were a pretty wise people ~ how to prevent them becDming re-infected. The boys reached the age of manhood at It is all very well to cure men of the fifteen. disease, but it is . another matter to The HDn. J. P. JONES.-N 0 doubt prevent them from becDming re-infected. th.er w:ere a. wise people., and considerably 'fhat is what we are up against, and I do ~mlmlzed the pDssibIlity Df venereal Dot kno'w just how to. deal with it.. dIsease. But there is in the CDmmunity

The Hon. J. K. MERRITT.-Amend the a sectiDn of men who are quite Act,. opposed to' the adoption of ce.rtain

The Hon. J. P. JONES.-If we could methods. They say that if we do adDpt do< it by ameuding the Act, I would ask them, they will make it pDssible fOir a hDnorable, members to sit up all night, general kind of cohabitation to take place. but we could not deal with this matter in So far as I can discover, most medica.! that way. We are up against human men are in favDur 0'f using prophylactics. nature, and we cannot do much with I discussed this matter with several ex­human nature 'by an Act of Parliament. perts when I was last in LDndo·n, nDtably We have the prDblem Df women o.f the Dr. Noel BardsweU, who. is head of the unfortunate class. We had a case the LoudDn CDunty Council Health Depa.rt­other day of a woonan somewhat nDte'riDus ment. He told me that certain methods in this city, because of an Dccurrence a were strongly recommended, but a certain year or tWQl ba.ck. She has been cured six se.ction o·f the community was strongly times by the Health Department. What opposed to them, a:r;;td in the circumstanca can we do with a womau of that type 1 it was almost impossible' to. do anything She is a perpetual source Df expenditure ill that directiDn. We will get rid Df to this State. The proper way to. deal venereal disease when we cau c0'mpletely with a. person of that type wo.uld be to. control the individual. At the present treat her as an outlaw to society and fo'r time a, persou receives lreatment, and is thE:: pr0'tection of herself, as well as the cured. Some time late'r he is reinfeded,

. 11 and so the thing gOies ou. The AssDcia-cDmmumty genera. y, put her away. But hon for the Prevention Df Venereal the moment one sta.rts to talk like that, . Disease is dDing a wonderful work. It people at once say, "You are hard and unkind." But there is n0' doubt that a provides fDr illust.rated ledures which

f h show the tremendDus dangers to health person 0' t at sort is a, dreadful pr0'blem, resulting from this dreadful disease. At and we are up against individuals who ca.rc little about themse,lves and less fo'r the present time we are spending on our Dthe,r peDple. lunatic asylums £350,000 per annum, and

J I think Dr. Harris will agree with me The HDn. J. K. MERRITT.-If that when I say that 40 per cent. of the

da.nger exists, we ought to deal with it. patients in these asylums are there as the

582 Consoltidated Revenue [COUNCIL.l Bill (No.5).

msult of- venereal disease. I am endea,- committees~· It is suggested that the VOiu.ring at the: preselllt time to :fi:nd a place rate should be 10 per cent. up to a certai1il 10'. the re,ception O'f women who are amount .and 20 per cent. above a certain aJfeetedwith this disease. 1 understand proportion. The, committee state that un­fForo ~he Chief Medical Office'r that, if less they get a little mOore consideratioo Wfj. had such a. b.u:hlding, a.bout 60 women they will not he ahle to take these child­emlid be put intol it~ It WEluld not co~t ren ·the distant journeys that they want ve:ry much, because. the women would do . to. Consequently, both pa:reuts and thffir own work. It would be a. place children will be deprived of the oppm­where somel uruo'rtunate women might be tunity of visiting different portions off c.Qn:fin~d and .have ~he requisite medi~al the State,. and the· Raihyay Department attenbon, whICh nught save the chIld will lose a large amount. of revenue. I from be,ing affected with some of the have rio doubt that these excursinns for~s Qtf disease resulting from this cnm- wnuld be more frequent, and the revenue plamt, .such as gonmr~.ce·al ophthalmia. to the Railway Department materially in­There IS a place whlCh WIll shortly creased if the Commissioners showed a he vacated in which. we may put little: dore generooity to these committees. these women. There is also the questIOn ().f finding a place: foI' putting certain men who are affected. There are a num­ber who are affected withgonoTrhreal rheumatism, and we could put about twenty in a home if we had nn8. I have a.sked the Chiet l\/[edical Officer to see if there is any existing institution in which we could accommodate these meu. I do not want to go to' the expense o.f pro­viding a separate home, because it would eoet abo.ut. £2,500 a year. I understand these men are not a menace to the com­munity,. and it would simply mean find­ing a home for them. I am going care­funy into the whole question befo.re I incur any expenditure for these' particu­far individuals.

The Hon. Dr. HARHIS.-The School Excursion Committee at Bright has in­vited me to bring under the nntice of the representative nf the Minister of Rail­ways in this House the conditions under which the Railway Department runs ex­cursion trains for school children in the country. A committee running an ex­cursion .of this. sort· has to guarantee. the to,tal expenses of the train. If the ex­cursion is successful they get 10 per cent. above the amount glilaranteed. These school excursions are a. means of educat­ing country children. I have known o.f an excursiGm from the nOFth-east to' the seaside. It appears from a letter which has been seut t.o me that as much as £360 has been obtained from excursionists, and yet, nnthwithstanding t·hat the Department received. so much, it allows the. committee', the members of whjch have to look after. the· children, only TO per cent. up to a certain amoUlilt. I hav.e been asked to, see if a Iarget percentage. cannot he g1Jven to· these

The Han. H. F. RICHARDSON.-I want again to re.fe'r to the use of Tait cars nn country lines. This matter has been mentioned in the House nn many occasions, and, according too a st.atement in the press, the present Minister of Rail­ways has announced his intention to. take these ca.rs off country lines. So far as Geelong is concerned, they are still being used. Last night when I started fa.r Mel­bourne I found that all the corridO'r cars were fun. Everybody rushes them, and comparatively few penpIe were in the Tait car. I want to lmow whether the pr~mise made by thE' Minister 0'£ Rail­ways is to be carried ou:t, and these cars taken off country lines.

The HOIJl. J'. STERNBERG.-I desire to support Mr. Richardson in reg,ard to the use of Tait cars on country lines. We have had assurances that the Com­missioners were introducing othe'r cars to take the place: O'f the Tait cars, but even on express trains T'ait cars are being used. The Government ougl1t t() insist upon these cars being taken off country lines. They are very unsatisfactory, and I have hea,rd of peO'ple. having to be sent to a hospital as the result of travelling in these cars. I- hope the Minister will be a bl~ to give us an assurance that the promise made. by his colleague will be given effect t:o. I cannot help: re-ferring to the Government again, because I :find they have brought about 3J reduction of 10 peF cent. in railway freights. and fares. I think I shall astonish the House by saying that in New South Wales trem.endous reduc­tions of freights aud fares have been

Consolidated Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Bill (No.5). 583

made. The following report appeared in the Sydney ~Morning Herald:-

THE RAILWAYS. F_<\'RES AND FREIGH'fS.

Government's Savingi. During the term of the present State Govern­

ment, railwa'y fares ,and freights have been reduced to the extent of £1,400,00U, and at the close of the present financial year this amount will be increased by another £700,000, making a grand total of £2,100,000. )1:r. Ball (Min­ister for Works and R.ailways), in makin~ a statement .to thiseifeet yesteTday, said .tnat dIn-ing the past two and a half years there had been a reductJion in railway fares and freights to the extent of £700,000 per annum. There would be ,a similar saving to the public during the coming year, and the years to fol­low, providing that fares and fr-eights were not interfered with. He thought that this achievement alone was an exceptJionally good onc on the ·part of the Government.

That is a good indication to the Govern­ment of Victoria of what can be done. I hope they will follow the good example set by Mr. Ball, the New South Wales Minister of Works .and Railways, fwd bring about a further reduction, which is really required under present condi tions. 1 hope that the Minister will gl';e me a satisfactory assurance with regard to the u~p, of the Tait cars ·on county\' 11.11'38.

The Hon. W. L. R. CLARKE.-This is a record year as far as our railways are ooncerned, the revenue for the first time beil1g over £12,000,000. It is a remark­able fact that, whilst in Melbourne there has been an inerease ·of 2,600,000 train miles, the service to the country has been cut down by 2'50,000 train miles. The Railways Commissioners refer in their re­pm-rt to the decreased number Df passen­gers in the ·co.u:ntry, and attribute it to a

. greater pero.entage of the public travelling QY motor cal'. However, we knDw that motor ;cars have increased enormously in Melbourne, yet the fact remains that mOTe pe(}ple are carried over the metrDpolitan mcilways. It is obvions., since the coun­try service has been reduced by 250,000 train miles, that there must be fewer pas-

. StIDg'eTS to handle. Every facility is gI~a.'D.ted to the people of 1Ylelbourne and suburbs. Electric trains are run everv two Dr three minutes. That is aU ver~ well in its way, but an effort shou1d b~ made to improve the .country servi~es. On certain railways petrol rail motors have been ill troduced. This is admittedly a valuable innovation, as long as the

type of petrol rail motor is an right. UnfDrtunately an inferior type has been introduced into this State. I travelled by one the other day from Deniliquin to.Meama and Echuca, .and had a conver­s.ation with a Victorian 'WhD had done a good .deal of trayelling -in New South Wales. He told me that several types of petrol rail motors had been introduced into that State, and that there was nC) eomparison as Tegarded comfort .betweE'Jl them and the Victorian variety. The type we have in Victoria sets up a motion that makes people sick. There is a single second-class carriage .and a single first-class carriage. The second-class carriage is a regular box, and nobody would travel in it who could possibly hel,p it. I do hope the Minister of Rail­ways will carry out a promise made in the railway report that a new type of petrol rail motor of a vastlysnperior kind will be introduced. The country peDple .are crying aloud for an improve­ment ,of country services. There is nl) t"easolt why in these matters we should not be as progressive as other States.

The Hon. W. TYNER.-I wish to re­fm' to the policy ·of the Railways Com­missioners in practically discontinuing the building of IO-ton trucks for rail­w.ay transport. This particular class 'Df truck is a great convenience to our pro­ducers, and to small farmers in particu­lar. For some time the Department has evinced a tendency not to construct any more of these trucks. I think it would be a 'very great mistake indeed if they carried out that intention. The small farmer who has only 10 tons of produce should not be compelled to order a 15-ton truck and to pay the fTeight thereon. The .actual capacity of a 10-ton truck is 10 tons, less 5 per cent., which Tuns 01llt'

at9i tons. The .capacity of a 15-ton truck, less .5 per ceut., is about 141 tons. It means that if a 10-ton truck is ordered and a 15-ton truck is supplied, the far­mer has to pay freight on ,the larger­sized truck, or what they calla special A..P. rate, which is a good deal more than on the 10-ton minimum, which is known as the agricultural produce rate. I shou~d like ·the 1YIinister 'of Public Works to make representations to the Minister of, Railways in the matter with a -view to the attention of the Commissioners being

584 OonsoZ'idated Revenue [COUNCIL.) Bill (No.5).

drawn to it. I make particular mention of this matter to-night on behalf of pro­ducers in the Gippsland district who cul­tivate potatoes and onions. The honor­able member for Gippsland will suppo.rt my statement that the 10-ton trucks are very suitable for the trade between Gipps­land and Melbourne, and between Gipps­land and South Australia. The policy of discontinuing the construction of 10-ton trucks is not a wise one.

The Hon. A. E. CHANDLER.-I want to refer to what I consider the unwise policy of the Hailways Commissioners in regard to the building of new stations. The answer given to my question in the Iiouse this evening has convinced me that the policy is not a good one. A railway station that is to be constructed at Poath­road, on the Oakleigh line, is to cost £9,365. The residents of that particular place are asked to contribute only £1,000. For another railway station between Hingwood and Oroydon, on the Lilydale line, the estimate is £2,239. The resi­dents are asked to contribute £2,000. The balance, £239, represents the cost of extending the platform fo,r longer trains, and would be a charge on the Department. There is another station at Heathmont, on the Ferntree Gully line, that is between BayS'water and Ringwood. These lines are to be electrified and the work is pro­ceeding. The Heathmont station is to cost £2,300, and the Commissioners de­mand £2,300 from the residents befo,re. they will sanction the erection of the station. Included in the amount is pro,­vision for the siationmasteT's residence. I contend that the policy is neIther wise nor fair.

The Hon. J. H. DISNEy.-How will it increase the value of land ~

The Han. A. E. CHANDLER.-It will increase the value of land, but why should the people of Dublin-road and Heathmont be compelled to pay 100 per cent. when the people of Poath-ro.ad are to get off so ljghtly ~

The Hon. J. H. DIsNEY.-The popula­tion is gre-ater.

The Han. A. E. CHANDLER.-We admit that.

The Hon. J. H. DISNEY.-The Oom­missioners will get a bigger revenue.

The Hon. A. E. CHANDLER.-But it, is a shortsighted policy for the Oommis­sioners to say that they will not build a

station unless the residents pay the whole cost of it. All these stations are within the suburban area. They are within 16 miles of Melbourne. We hear it said that the people should go out and live in the country, but the Oommissioners will not assist. There is cheap land ,available and services that would be payable almost from the start. The Commissioners say, "It is not our deal, it is your deal. Put np the money and we will build a station for you." That, policy is the very oppo­site to that advocated by Mr. Norman some years ago. T recollect the advocacy of a station at a. place called Boronia. Mr. Norman said, " We will not build a station because we do not think it is re­quired." We said, "Let us pay for a stat.ion and we will soon make it a pay­able proposition." His reply was that if we could 13how it was a proper place for a station and worthy of a station, the Railways Commissioners would build it. He said, "It is not our policy to ask the residents to contribute a shilling of the money required to build a station." The same position arose in connexion with Seaford, on the Frankston line. Mr. Tait would not accept 'any money towards the erection of a station there. He said, " If you can show that a station is neces­sary you will have it." But now we find the Railways Oommissioners demanding 100 per cent. of the cost of a station from the residents. The Heathmont 'station would be half way between Ringwood and Bayswater. There are orchards around, and the local people have been asking for a station for very many years. Now that the line is to be electrified the whole place will go ahead. These people who have held their land. for many years will have to pay the whole cost of the station.

. The Hon. J. II. DIsNEY.-fo..nd they WIll make a fortune out of it.

The Hon. A. E. CHANDLER.-I con­tend that it would be quite a fair thing to ask them to pay a portion of the cost, but tha tit is certainly unfair to ask them to pay 100 per cent. of it. Is Mr. Disney going to make a fortune ~ Has 'he land there ~

The, Hon. J. H. DISNEY.-I wish I had.

The Hon. A. E. C·KANDLER.­In reference to the Boronia station we had a deputation to ~1:r. Norman. He said, "As you have been here

Co~t.'iolidaled Revenue [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Bill (No.5). 585

so many times and this is the largest deputation I have ever had in my office, I will grant your request, but you must find a stationmaster and pay hill?­wItil the station is a payable proposi­tion." In twelve months' time the revenue from this small station had so much in­creased that the Railway Department put in their own staff. For thel first twelve months we found and paid the sta.tion­master. As I told Mr. N o·rman, that man was the only stationmaster in the State with the degree of M.A. I want. to protest that it is a, wrong policy for the Commissioners to expect the whole 100 per cent. from the residents in those place.s to build those, stations, becaus-e in t.he near future the whole of that area will be built 011. In the cal3e of Dublin':' road it will be a payablel proposition right from the very sta.rt. It seems to me, it is altogether wrong to' e'xpect thel people at those places to build the stations, to build the earthworks and supply a station­master's resid'ence when other districts can get stations at a much less S'Um.

The Hon. W. TYNER.-I wish briefly to support thel remarks of my colleague regarding Hea.thmont and Dublin-rO'ad. I accompanied Mr. Chandler on the depu­tation that waited on the Chief Railways Commissioner, and we were astonished on being asked such a large amount of money for the construction of the two proposed stations. Dublin-road is between Ring­wood and Croydon. The electrification will be completed before the end of the year to Croydon, and the Railways Standing Committee have recommended an extension to Lilydale. The same a pplies to the line from Ringwood to Fern Tree Gully. The electrifi­cation of that line has been recom­mended, and we are most anxious with regard to the cost of the two proposed stations. We think the Department is adopting a very short-sighted policy. As one of the representatives of the district, I do hope that the Government will look into this matter, because we think the Railways Commissioners are asking altogether too much from the residents. A ·station is needed at Heat.hmont. I think the dis­tance between Ringwood and Bayswater is about 3~· miles. The population is going out that way very rapidly . We be;­lieve that ftingwood will shortly be consti­tute-a a borough, and will take in that part. The municipal revenue is rapidly in­creasing. The railway revenue will also in-

crease as the population increases in those localities. I hope ~he Ministelr of Public Works will look into the policy under which such a la.rge amount is beling de­manded from the residents of those two. localities. I trust tha.t hel will not lose sight of the question of the amount that was asked for in each case, which is very high fo-r the construction of the stations that I have already named in that locality.

The Hon. M. SALTAU.-I want to join Mr. Tynelr in tne protest in regard to thel 10-ton trucks. My firm handles large quantities of produce, and these trucks :lTe always a. source of friction. People are constantly orde.ring 10-tOll trucks, and are supplied with something else. You, Mr. Edgar, can imagine as a business mau, the trouble, that is caused. I know the re·ason is economy in railway management, but I do not think that economy should be the ruling factor whe,re the conveniene-e of traders is con­cerned. I do not want to associate my­self with the remarKs of Mr. Russel Cla.r ke,. I consideT thel Commissioners havel given the country an infinitely better service tha .. n it has had before. They have brought the centres of population close'r by providing faster trains. My dis­trict would welcome moto,r trains. We have in some- parts a wretched service, and we feel that it would be imp.roved by the introduction of motor trains. The cost of a. motor train is Is. 9d. a, mile as against 8s. or 9s. by steam. There is 60 miles betwe,en Warrnambool and Hamilton, and it often takes five or six hours by steam train, but if a motor train were put on we could get there in two or two and a half hours. W €I are agitating for motor trains, and o·ther cen­tres will also welcome them.

The clause was agreed to, as was also clause 2.

The Bill was reported without amend­ment, and the report was adopted.

On ·the motion ci:f the Hon. J. P. JONES (1\1inister of Public Works), the Bill was read a third time,.

AUDlT BILL. The Hon. J. P. JONES (1\1inister of

Public Works).-I move-That this Bill ibe now read a second time.

This is a. very short measure, and I would like, the House to pass it to-night because it is a matter of some urgency. Thel ob­ject is to amend the Audit Act in order

586 Audti.t [COUNCIL.)

to provide that in future it will 'be pos­siMe· for .the Treasury .to pay 'accounts by cheque. Under .existing conditions it is necessary to pay 'at pay offices, and there aTe some .pl~ces in the 'country wherel suc:h affices ·do not -exist. The :result is that cl~ents of the Treasury are put to consider­able difficulty in collecting their money. Proba:bly they have to make, a personal visit to the pay office, which .may be a conside.rable distance from their homes, or they may have, to give an orde,r to a bank or agent. That, of course, means a stamp fOT the person e,ntitled to receive the money. The proposal is made to obviate the considerable difficulties that occur, and to pay. accounts by cheque dire,ct from the Treasury. There is also anOother pro­vision that will ena ble salaries and wages to. be paid without the necessity of a re­ceIpt. I und€,rstand that this has been done, in the past, and this measure is merely to validate wha,t has been the pra~tice,. There is a difficulty in getting receIpts under ce,rtain conditions, and thb Auditor-General accepts t.he proposal. The Treasury approves of it also, and it will sa-ve a considerable amount '01 trouble to men in the- country, and will secure> the eltlsie'rworking of the Treasury's activities.

The Hon. H. F. RICHARDSON.­This is a· Bill that will be of great cun­venience, to those who are reee,iving pay­ments in the country districts'; and, there­fore, .. I give, it my most heatty support. I understand that this syste'lTI of paying thel creditors of the State by crossed non­negotiable- cheques is in force- in conne,xion with 'tne Federal Departme-nts, and that it has worked satisfacto-rily. We know tbat so far as the, ordinary business trans­actions of private individuals and firms are concerned a, majority of the aCGounts are now paid by non-negotiablel cheques. Companies, in payi.ng dividends, send out cheques that are SImply endorsed on the back, t.he, endorsement being the receipt. Thel cheq~es are held by .the banks, and the banks hand themove:r to' the, company where they are accepted by the auditor as a. sufficient discharge for the debts. In regard to clause 4, which deals with the paymen.t of wages, .salaries, and allow­ances, It seems to mel a little surprising th~t wa.ges .~hould, be, pa.~d without receipts bemg requIred. That "IS not al1o-wedby any ~rruni?ipa~ity. All municipalities comvel ·thffir labouTeTs and 'otners to sign rece'lp'ts, and I 0.0 'not know that much in­convenience "Would he caused to men work-

ingon railway lines and oth€r public works if receipts had to be .given. I understand, however, that the Auditor­General approves of the Bill, and if he. lS satisfied wesho'llld be satisfied also that caFe will be taken to see that. these ac­counts are properly paid.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second timel .and

committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2-(payments out of the Pub1ic

Account by means'oJ non.:negotiable cheques).

Tht:, HOl!. W. TYNER.~I do not desi re to in any way obstruct the passa.ge of this Bill but it seems to me that the revenue suff~rs to some e,xtent because of the growing -practice of making cheques non-ne~Ootiable OT account payee or to o:rder. The revenue suffers owing to starn ped recei pts not being Te­quired, I have, heard, t.o thee,xtent Oof from £~,OOO to £4,:000 a year .. I do not kIiow whether tbat is a, fact, bu t most people have to give stamped receipts, and I do not think we should ·do anything to facilitate tne payment of money witboul S'tamped receipts:. This .matter was debated at length in another phce, but I do not tbink that any 'amendment was made, wit.h the 'obj'ed 'O'f 'Prot.ecting tne, re'­venue. I would, therefore, suggest that we, -should cOonside,r the Bill from that aspect.. It ,does not 'seem {a,:ir that, whilst the majority of thel people WhOo l'elceiv6-payments have to, give stamped receipts, ot.he·rs should go free.

The lIon. R. H. -So ABBOTT.-The honorable memher is under a misappre­hension. The' object of this p:r@vision 'is to enable, payments to ~e made by cheque, and the, db-eque becomes thel Teceipt. 'The question of 'stamps does no't arise, (becarnse there are no stamps on Government re­C€lipts or cheques. 'TheBill win do aWB;Y with a lot of red tapel, and make,ma-tters much easier fOor the people in the country, who at present have oft-en to -travel long distances to, obtain pa:yments to which they are entitled. I have, had a number of complaints about the difficulty thu'B caused, and I have, heen asked 'whether the policeman in a neighbourbood could not 'be made a paymaster in order to avoid 'a journey 'Oof 20 or 30 'miles to sO'me centre where Government mone,y is pay~ ablel. I cOTIlmend the Government for having introdu'ced the' measure" which iB ve.ry much in the interests of the people

Audit Bill.. [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] A..ddo'LVrnment. 587

in the country, and will a;ffo~d them relie·f that will be much appreciated.

TheRon. M. McGREGOR.-In draw­ing money from a Government pay office, a person has not to give a stamped re­(eeipt, and I do not see why any objection should be· o'ffeFed to cheques being sent Qut in the way provided for in the Bill. I thinl{ that this change is. very necessary, and that it will be of great ~onvenience 110' people in the. country districts.

The' clause was agreed to, as was also .clause 3.

Clause 4--(Reeeipts fo:r payment of salaries and wages).

The Hon. H. F. RIOHARDSON.­This claUBe provides that it shall not be necessary to obtain receipts for the pay­ment. of salaries, wages, or allowancel::! paid 'Out of the Public Account, "but a. certificate in the form prescribed by :regula tiol1s . . . shall he given by the .oilicer making. the payment." This seems w, be a somewhat car.eless method to adop.t, and no reason suggests. itself to me why in the case of at least a large pro­~~tion of these a..ecounts receipts should not be required.. No municipal officer would be a1lowed to m~ke payments in this· way. I do not l.ike the clause. It ahould be possible for !in officer making payments to obtain an acknowledgement ill them. on the pay-sheet.

: The Hon. J. P. JONES (Minister of Public Works).-This provision is in­tended to be used onty in connexion with the paymen t of wages to' manual ra banrers, an d it wiII be' the. means of .avoiding a: cunsidera ble loss of time. Any honorable member who has had ex­perience must know that the making of p'ayments to' a large' number of workers is' a verY' slow process'. I have had to do it in connexron with my own business when upwards of 100 persons were em­ployed, and I know the time it takes to get .each person to attach his signature to .3. pay-sheet. The class' who, will be bene­fitted by this new method are· n.ot like clerical workers. They want to m.ake sure that the right amount is being' paid to them,. and they are not quick at writ­img their- names to any document. The difficulty is aceen;tuated in' the- case' of men doing-. rough pi~k and shovel work, and the saving of time and of expeEJSe

that will 'be effe:cted by this Bill should commend it to' the' favorable eonsioora:­tion of honorable' members. An officer will be able to hand' out this money, and give a· certificate or make a statutory declaration regarding the pay­ment. Regulations will be: provided, and honorable members ca.n be sati-sfied that the Auditor-General will. see- that e-very safeguard is applied so that everything will be satis.faetory. Payments in this way will app1y to only a limited number of cases, and the officer who mnkes them will be a mall' who can be relied upon, If it happens that any wages are· omitted', the, Department will very soon hear about it. Honorrable members cau rest satisfied that· all the necesslary sa.feguards will be provided. This Bin will enable money to. be paid quicker than it is at the present time, and will prevent consider­able expenditure which is incurred no·w. Vll8 cau trust the Under-Treasurer, who is a ca.pable officecr.-, to see that nothing is done which will mean a loss to' the State . The Bill will save money, and be' a con­venience t.o a numbe,r of people. I rega,rd it as a, handy little measure. . The clause was agreed to, as were, the

remaining clauses. Thel Bill was reported' without ame.nd­

ment, and the' report was adopted. On the motion of the Hon. J. P.

JONE'S (l\1inister O'f Public Works) the Bill was read a third time.

ADJOURNMENT.

The Hon. J. P. JONES' (Minister of Public· '\Vorks).-I move.--·

Tli.at the House at its· rising adjourn until October 14.

I have suggest'ed tJiis adjournment because I do not want to bring members he're un,­lo8ss there is a ceirtainty tha.t there. will be work for them to do.. I have been ob­serving the progress of business in a'l'lothe.l' place, and I am inclined to' think, tha:t it is doubtful whetherr there would be much work, if any t for this House to' deal with if we met next Tuesday. It is true that we still have thfr Milk Supply Bill fo1' considetration. Its provisions ar·eJ conten­tiO'us, but I do not think it would be. pro­per to bring members. from the COThIlt~y unless we ha:d' sO'me- @>ther me,3SlITe a.vail~­able for conside.ra,tion. TIm.n Bin might not be' quite enough to' occupy 1lI, full sitting ..

588 State Savings [ASSEMBLY. J Bank Loans.

The Hon. H. F. RICHARDSON.-I hea.rtily approve of the, reasons the Minis­ter has given for not calling members to­gelther for a fortnight. I trust that in the interests of country members, who reach Melbourne after travelling long distances, business will be allowed to accumulate so that we can sit two nights a week instead of only one. Some members have to tra.vel hundreds of miles to attend the sittings of this House. One day is occupied in travelling to Melbourne, one day with the sitting, and the third. day in -re,turning home. That m€,ans three days for one- sitting day. If the Minister will agree to the suggestion I have made, it will be in the interests of country members.

The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 1.0.1.7 p.m.,

until Tuesday, Octooo,r 14.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

.Tuesday} Septemoe1' 30, 1924.

The SPEAKER (the Hon . John Bowser) took the chair at 4.36 p.m.

STATE SAVINGS BANK LOANS.

Mr. ANGUS.-I move-That there be laid before the House a ·return

showing-1. The .number and aver.age amount of the

Credit Foncier loans made by the State Sav­ings Bank in the metropolitan ar'ea during the year ended 30th June, 1924, and also the nature of the securities taken for such loans.

2. Similar information in connexion with loans made under the Housing' and Reclama­tion Acts, and also the State Savings Bank Department loans.

3. The number and averfuge amount of the loans made on farms during the year ended 30th June, 1924; also the number of a;pplica­tions for farm loans not granted, and the aggregate amount of the loans appLied for by such 3:pplicants.

4. The number ·and average amount of the loans made on country houses during the year ended 30th June, 1924; also the number of applications not granted, and the aggregate amount applied for by such applicants.

5. What percentage of the amounts of the loans for country houses for the year ended 30th June, 1924, was made for- (a) Geelong; (b) Ballarat; and (c) Belld.igo.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I would ask the honorable member to agree to an addition.

to pa,ragraph No.1, thel effect of which would be to request the,' same information as is sough t for in the la tter part of paragraphs 3 and 4.

Mr .. A .. NGUS.-I agree to the suggested amendment of the motion, if there is no objection on the part of the Government.

:Mr. EGGLESTON.-Then 1. move-That the following words be added to para­

graph 1-"Also the number of applications for such

loans not granted and the aggregate amount of loans applied for by such applicants."

The amendment was agreed to, and the motion, as amended, was adopt,ed.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION.

Mr. E.GGLESTON.-I desire to make­a personal explanation. During the dis­CUFolSiOll 011 the motion for the expenses of the Police Oommission, I made cer­tain remarks about the counsel for the public in that inquiry, Mr. Foster, and I cri ticized h is methods of cross-examina­tion. The information on which I made that criticism was obtained from the re­ports t.hat appeared in thel newspapers of that morning. I have since found out that certain things were omitted. It was not clear from the report that that was so. Only part of the cross-examina­tion was recorded, and questions were asked that were not reported at all. I do not say that the report was wrong; the newspaper put into its columns what it considered to be interesting. I under­stand now that Sir John Monash had told Mr. Foster that, as he appeared for the public, his questions should not be put in the form of a cross-examination. If I had had this information, I would not have ventured on such a severe criticism of the methods adopted. If the remarks that I made are considered un­just by Mr. Foster, I trust that he win

. accept the explanation I have now offered.

CATTLE OOl1PENSATION BILL. The debate (adjourned from Septem­

ber 23) on the motion of Mr. C'ain (Hon­orary Ministe,r) for the second reading of this Bill vms resumed.

M.r. OMAN.-l'his Bill is similar to one that was introduced last year by the then Minister of Agriculture, and its pro­visions are fairly familiar to ,-the House. There is really only one> altera,tion, and

Cottle l30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Compensation Bal. 589

that is 1 hat in re!5pect of certain diseases a proportion of the cost of compensation shall be borne by the State·. Half of the cost of the compensa,ton would be; divided between these diseases and tuberculosis, and the result would be that the State would. provide, unde.r this proposal, prao tically 10 13 e,l' cent. of the compensa­tion. I doubt very much whether the compensation fund fOol' which provision is madel will bel sufficient to meet the claims that will be made upon it. 'Ve were told by the Honprary l\iinister (Mr. Cain) who introduced the Bill that the number of cattle condemned for tuberculosis is 300 pel' annum. I doubt whether that fully represents the number of cattle so condemned. I repre­sent Hampden,' a dairying district in the southern end, and in one shirel in that con­stituency there are 23,955 cows. The municipality felt that, so fnr as that shire was concerned, the Dairy Supervision Act should be under the control of qualified aud trained men, and they put in a re­quest that the Government should take over that responsibility. It will be in­teresting to know what was the result. On illspection by the Government supervisors, 605 cows were prohibited. The owners were not permitted to supply milk from those cows to fa.ctories, nor to make any use of it. Subsequently, the veterinary officers were sent to the shire, and of the 605 ani­mals, 257 were condemned on a fi rSL iJl.­spection, and on a second inspection 11 others were also cOondemned, making the total number condemned 268. If, in one shire, where there are only 24,000 cows, 268 had to be condemued, and in the State there are 750,00'0 111ilk1nO' cows I think it is fair to say that unde~ the pro­visions 0.£ this Bill the amollnt of com­pensation required lS not likely to be raised.

Mr. lIoGAN.-'Vere those 268 cows killed ~

1\1r. Ol\1AN.-Those 268 cows have practically all been killed, and there has been no compensation paid to any owner. I know returned soldiers who have had three or four animals destroyed, and in some cases a bull that probably cost a little more than the average of the herd has had to be destroyed. That meant a very heavy loss to the individuals con­cerned. I think it is a fair thing to pass a provision under which those owners whosE' cattle are destroyed will be fairly com­pensated. The provisions of the Bill are

r32-,

very similar to those of the prevIous mea­sure, and only do justice to the owners. In cases in which cattle are destroyed through an error, the full value of the beasts, less, of course, a, deduction for the residual value, will be paid, but in cases where the cattle destroyed were suffering from the disease that caused the order for their destruction tp be issued, the owner will receive three-fourths of the value. We know that quite a number of people have .suffered severely through their cattle contracting diseases, chiefly pleuro­pneumonia.. Very heavy losses have been sustained, and settler:s in a small way have lost up to £500. While I was administer­ing the Department, one owner sold on his own property a herd tha t had been affected and was, I believe, at the time suffering from pleura-pneumonia. The cattle were dispersed far and wide through the State. I gave an order that the law should be administered with the utmost rigour, but, after consultation with the Crown Law authorities, we found that we were unable to do anything, because the owner had sold the herd on his own pro­perty, and in consequence was not liable tOo a penalty. We know that there is a disposition on the part of owners not to report suspicious cases, because compensa. t~on is not provided, but if it were pro­VIded owners would have no hesitation in advising ther Department and having an examination made. As a result, diseases such as pleura-pneumonia would be stamped out in their initial stages, and that would be of great advantage to the State. I have hear€! the argument put forward that this is a dairyman'.s mea­sure. Even if it wore, it would be worth while passing it .. Just about half the cattle ju the State are dairy cattle, and in 1922-23 the value of butter, cheese, and milk products amounted to £10,381,310. That is approximately £14 per cow. If an industry that returns to the State that amount of money is not worth careful con­sideration, I do nO.t know any that is. I think it would be a good thing fOol' the whole of the cattle-ownNs in this State if this measure were, to be placed on the statute-book, and if we could provide that compensation will be found and paid fairly tOo the owners. The only difference between this Bill and the previous mea­sure is that the latter provided for a stamp duty and a fee, whereas this mea· sure provides for a stamp duty and a con- . tribution by the Government. I have always been in favour of the Government

590 Cattle [A SS_KM.BL Y. J Compensat·ion Bill_

making a contribution, for the reason that cattle suffering from tubercular diseases are condemned in the interests of the, pub­lic.

Mr. lIoGAN.-You did not provide for a government contribution in your Bill.

1\11'. 01\1AN.-We did not, but I have always believed that sucn /·a provision should be in a cattle compensa,tion mea­sure. I am n.ot objecting to that provision at all, but I do not-think that the sum pro­vided by the Bill will be as much as a fee of 3d. per head would provide. The hon­orable member for Kara Kara, who was in charge of the previous Bill, indicated that he was agreeable to the imposition of a fee of 3d. per head, and such a· fee on the whole of the dairy cows of this Sta~e would yieJd almost £10,000. There would be very little difficulty in collect­ing the fee. It could be collected by the supervisors in all areas where the Dairy Supervision Act is in operation. A charge of 3d. per head would amount, in the ag­gregate, to £9,375, and a charge of 6et. per head would amount to £18,750. See­ing that in one shire 268 cows were con­demned, chiefly on· account of tubercular disease, I think it is hardly likely that the amount of compensation provided for in the Bill will be sufficient.. If the work of inspection is done thoroughly, and the Dairy Supervision Act is e,xtended to the whole State, as it should be, I consider that it will take very much more than the amount indicated by thel Minister to pro­vide the compensation necessary. There is no doubt that, from the point of view of the public, and of the dairying industry, it would be a great advantage to have the- Dairy Supervision Act extended to the ·whole State. It would cost £16,000 to do that, but there would· be an additional £6,000 collected in fees, GO that the not additional cost would be only £10,000. There is no doubt that, as a result of the extension· of the Act to the whole State, the herds would be improved and product.ion would be increased. As a practical dairymm; who lives in a dairying district, and is chairman of directors of one of the but­ter factories in the Western Ditstrict, I am satisfied that if the 750,000 cows in lite State were rednced by 150,000, the rOlmlt would be advantageous. If the gl'ass that those 150,000 cows consume, were given to the remaining 600,000 cows, more butter would bn produced

from the latter. I am not saying that. every dairyman over-stocks, but many of them do, and if,. by some system we could eliminate the culls, it would be a. good thing for the dairymen. For over twenty years the practice has been for a dairy­man to. cull a beast and put it through the saleyard6. Very often that beast is pur­rhasecl by another dairyman, who goes tD.:!'ough the same process with it. That is the beast in respect of which, under this Bill, fees will be collected. The fees are to be paid in respect of the cattle that are sold, but no fee will be paid on a good beast that is retained on the farm prac­tically until she dies. Fees will be paid in respect of the duffers and the young stock which change hands, but the cattle permanently retained on farms will not be taxed by this measure. If we had some syst~m under which the indifferent cows-those that ·will not test up to a certain standard-could be spayed, the· result wou~d -be that they could not be passed on to other dairymen. If all the cows culled were spayed, turned into the fattening paddock, and disposed of for meat it ,,;rould be in the interests of the industry. The dairying industry is worthy of consideration, and I do not think that £10,000 spent in extending the Dairy Supervision Act to the whole State would be misspent. If the State is to find any compensation, I have indicated a way in which some of the compensation might be provided. Tlhe average yield per annum of each cow in the State is about· 320 gallons of milk, or 160 lb. of butter fat. Those who have had the oppor­tunity of hearing the lectures of Mr. Tate, who has been through Denmark and other Eur.opeall countries, will know what is done in those countries, and I believe that until we take steps to improve the dairy herds of the State many of the­difficulties that are confronting the soldier settlers will not be oyer come. Theil' difficulties are caused rather by indifferent rattle than by indifferent laud. - The Bil1 meets with my cordial support, and I am not going to complain because the Go_­vernment are going to provide part of the compensation. I think that is quite a

_ fair thing. If, in the interests of the whole of the people, the Government does something that injures an individual, the State, as a whole: should llleet the obliga-

GauZe l30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] CO'n?'pensation Bill. 591

tioll. It is unreasonable to expect owners who are engaged in dairying to submit to the heavy losses that they have been obliged to submit to in years past through the condemnation of their cattle. In the shire in my district to which I previously referred, cows were condemned, and the ownors had to suffer the loss.

Mr. HOGAN.-vVhat were they COll­

demned for?

Mr. O~IAN.-Ohiefly 011 account of tuberculosis. The 106S had to be borne by the owners. Honorable members may say that that is an argument in favour of continuing the present system, but I do not think it is. I think we should pass this meal3Ul'C so that owners will be in a position to free their herds of diseased stock without having to bear all the loss. A diseased beast cannot give good results, and a tubercular cow cannot be a profit­able cow to the farmer. You may have three or four tubercular cows amongst 25 cm,vs 011 a farm, but you would be better off 'without them. At the same time, owners have bought such cows in good faith, and at present when they are condemned the owners have to pay the penalty. They are obliged to provide pure milk for the consumers, but the latter pay no compensatioll when cattle are condemned. I know that, again and again, pleuro-pneumonia has been brought from the northern States into Victoria. Oattle brought from New South Wales iuto the Western District have frequently developed pleuro-pneumonia. In the shire to which I have referred it has been necessary to close roads against the public, because of the fact that the cattle on certain farms were suffering from pleuro-pneumonia. If honorable mem­bers are fail' they will admit that a great many stock-owners have incurred se~ious losses be'cause of that diseasC'. Then there is a provision, which was in the previous Bill, to ensure reporting promptly .. When an owner does not re­port, and a beast dies, he will have to bear the, loss. That is a wise provision. If out­breaks are promptly reported, officers of the Department will be able tOo deal with them first~hand, and stamp out disease in the early stages. As I have said, the whOole of the money to be raised under the Bill is to COome from a stamp duty. Now, the stamp duty proposed may be

sufficient to provide the necessai:·y funds, but I do not think it will.

Mr. HOGAN.-It is based on the advice· of the Ohief Veterillary Officer.

Mr. OMAN.-In one shire alone 268 dairy cows were rejected and turned dOown wit.hin a year.

:Mr. HOGAN.-But you know that the number will not be nearly as great next year in that particular shire.

Mr. Ol\1AN.-That is so. However, in every part of the State there are a great number 0'f cattle that should be dealt with, That is why we should have the Dairy Supervision Act extended to the whole State. If that were done, it would help to eliminate tuberculosis. That difi­ease is very destructive to pigs. The Minister knows the figures. Probably four times as many pigs are condemned in areas that. are not under Government supervision, Tuberculosis is yery danger­ous t0' human beings, and it is in the in­terests of the people of the whole State that. there should be no suspicion that milk and butter have, been obtained from cattle suffering from that disease. Some of the shires where they have private supervision are doing good work. In the particular shire t0' which I have referred it will be realized that the inspectors wen" fairly exacting, because they set aside 605 animals, and the veterinary officers con­demned only 268. That shows that the inspectors were turning them down pretty freely, and were not taking any risks. The departmental officers have done their work well. They have not created any friction in the shires to which they have gone. Although losses have been suffered, the people are not complaining, because they recognize that what has been done is in the interests of the, whole State. It is unfortunate, however, that owners who have already suffered will be precluded from obtaining any compensation, while others whose cattle are destroyed subse­quently will have an opportunity of col­lecting compensation under this measure. It is all very well for members represent­ing wheat districts to declare that they are not interested in this matter,because their constituents do, not engage in the dairying industry to the same extent as those in other parts. The honorable mem­ber for Gippsland vVest well knows' that the dairymen in his district are more in­terested in this Bill than in the measure for establishing a compulsory wheat Pool.

592 Cattle [ASSEl\{BLY.J Compel/sat~'on Bill.

~ ho.pe that those who represent wheat­growing areas in the north, will be COll­siderate in this matter in the interests of the dairymen in other parts of the State.

lYlr. CAIN.-Will you reciprocate when the wheat Pool proposal comes up ~

lVIr. OMAN.--I will. However, I am not going to deal "vith the wheat Pool llOW, but I would point out that the measure before us has been asked for by the dairymen' of Victoria. The Farmers Union again and again made it one' o.f its chief planks.

l\1t. LIND.-Last year your own l\1inis­tel' made a statement which clearly showed t hat was not so.. .

:Mr. OMA~.-I know that I was pre­sent at the conference at which the re­quest was put most stro.ngly, and there was no doubt about the view of the organization on the matter. At any rate, I am in favour of the Bill, and I will sup­port a proposal ,to place a fail' proportion of the burden on the industry.

. 1VIr. "VEAvER.-\Vhat about the position of the grazing industry ~

1'11'. OlVIAN.--Those engaged in the grazing industry can afford to bear their share, because they will reap the same advantages, although it is true they may not do so to the same extent.

Colonel BOURCHIER.-In districts which 0.1'0 immune from th_ese diseases they will not reap the same advantages.

:\11'. Ol\fAN.-There is no country dis­trict in Victoria immune from pleuro­pne1jlllOnia. It is not necessary for m8 to repeat the figures which the l\Iinister and his predecessor have given. In the Shire of Colac the position became so. acnte, that they inHiated . a scheme. of their own in order to provide compensation. 'Vhen the people in a particular shiro feel compelled to take action themselvos, it shows that the GOYE'l'llmellt is on sound lines in pro­posing G\" State-wide scheme.

1\1:1'. ALLIsoN.-Cannot dairymen 111

other shires do the same ~ l\fr. OMAN.-Noj it would be too

costly. There should be, a general schenl<' carried out by competent men who know their jobs. "Ve have veterinary officerf:l available for the work. Certainly it would not be a good thing for each shire to havo a scheme of its own. Fancy 220 shires running cattle compensation schemes, w~th all the overhead charges! That won1d be_ worse thall--

:Mr. l\10TILEY.-A wheat Pool ~

:Mr. Ol\IAN.-A compulsory wheat Pool in Victoria t and voluntary Pools ill the other States.

lVlr. WEAVER.-It is not a good thing that. thel graziers should bel calle·d upon in this way.'

Mr. Ol\1AN .-Graziers retain their dairy heiIeirs ill the vVestern District, and sell to the dairymen at high rates. There are a great number of cattle re­turned from the north, and disposed of to dairymen in the southenl districts. The fact that this Bill does not suit wheat­grmvers in one particular corner of Vic­toria is no reason why it should be re­jected. In Gippsland East the same thing prevails as in the north. The honorable member for Gippsland East is not sO' keenly interested in snch a proposition as this.

lYlr. LIND.-Do not make any mistake about that.

l\h. OMAN.-I thought that the hon­orable member was opposed to the pro­posal, and was in favo.ur of no compen­sation .

1\I[r. LIND.-Yon should not think at all.

Mr. Ol\iAN.-In any case, I am con­vinced that this measure is sought by the dairymen of the State. The last Govern­ment were not able to. put their proposals through chiefly bectj,use we could not be sure of the support of those whol have introduced the present measure. There is no doubt that when members change their position in this House they some­times change their policy. I think tha t what the, Government nQiW propose is a. policy which for the time beiIlg I can support.. \Vhen a measure that could not bel carried owing to opposition from certain parties can now be put· through be­cause of a reversal in the attitude of members of those parties, '(jhen I think we had better accept it.

l\1r. BAILlw.-'Ve objected tQi your Bill because you were charging the dairymen toOl much money.

1\11'. OlVIAN .-The Government will have tOi find a bigger sum than they are providing fol'. As a, matter of fact, they are lightening the. burdens of the primary pro­ducers at eV'8,ry turn. For instance, they are reducing railway freights and fares. They are making a reduction in favour of a certain section, and they are going to ask another section to find the mOlley. On every hand they are making promises in favour of the primary producers, but

Oattle [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Oompensation Bill. 593

they will expect the primary producers to find more than the concessiO'ns amount to, and the Government knO'w it.

1\1r. PRENDERGAST.-Holw do you know thaU

11r. OMAN.-vVe, will not have to wait long to see.

1\11'. HOGi\.N.-In the Cattle· Compen­sation Bill introduced by your GQlVern­ment you provided for a charge of Is. a head.

1\ir. OlVlAN.-That was the maximum, but the Minister in cha.rge of the measure said he thought that 3d. would bel suffi­cient. In any casel, that Bill provided that none of the money which was raised under it should be diveded from this fund. The fees were to be fixed accord­ing tQl the requireme,nts at the time. n nder this measure, if there is a shortage the Treasury will have to find the money.

1\f.r. CAIN.-But it has to be paid back. .:\11'. O~rA:N.-That is where the differ­

ence. lies. The Government in power last year felt that it could not put up a scheme under which its successors would have to find the money to finance it.

1\lr. BAILEY.-There was a similar clause in your Bill about recouping the Treasury.

1\1r. Ol\IAN.-But we made provision for getting the money. I doubt whether there is the llC'cessary provision in this measure.

:1\11'. CAIN .-A few mi~utes ago you spoke of 3d. a. Ilea.d. That would havel ]~ais(ld only £O,000. You also said that the number of dairy cows was only half the number of cattle in the Stat€l.

l\Ir. Ol\fAN.-I said slightly less than half. A charge of 3d. per head would have brought in £20,000 if it were properly paid.

IvIr. CAIN.-YoU said that 25 per cent. could not be collected.

1\ir. OlVIAN.-There would probably be difficulty in collecting it. In regard to dairy cattle there would be no diffi­culty, but in regard to others there would be difficulty. In my opinion, the I-IQluse should accept this measure. It is one tha.t will do justice' to dairymen and cattle-owners, and the figures show that the losses are fairly evenly distributed. If the Dairy Supervision Act were ex­tended to the whole of the State, there ('ould be 110 question that a good deal of the compensation w.ould go to the men in the dairying industry, but ultimately it would be prettly evenly distributed Olver Victoria.

lVIl'. LIND.-First of all, I should like to congratulate the Honorary Minister on the able manner in which he introduced this Bill. At the same time I could not heIp feeling, while, he was explaining its provisions, that he did not know quite sufficient about the conditions which ob­tain throughout the country districts. I say that with all respect to t.he, honor­able. gentlemau,beca.use I agree. that not only did he show a good deal of ability in handling the matter, but it appeared to me' that he also displayed a commendable amount of since1rity, which is customary with him. He gave us a. great deal of information, but it appeared to me that there. are many matters which have elvi­dently not yet comel under his notice, and I would like to refer to them. Honorable members win. recollect that the Govern­ment of which Mr. Pennington was an Honorary Minister introduced a, Bill last year to provide for compensation for tho destruction of diseased cattle. Provision was made in that Bill for a certain stamp duty similar to what we have in this Bill. If that Bill had been adopted as it was submitted to this House, a sum of £122,000 annually would have, been r.aised from cattlemen in this Sfa,te'.

:Mr. HOGAN .-That was based on the payment of Is. per h€ud.

~Ir. LIN"D.-Yes, together with one penny in the pO].lnd on the sales of cattle. I wondered what thel Government was going to do with the amOUll t over and above that which might be required to meet all claims for compensation. The Honorary Minister, in submitting ~his Bill, gave a number of figures showmg the number of cattle likely to be destroyed annually on accou.nt of being infected by disease.. lIe said that 300 head were condemned in the country bccau80 they .. vere suffering from t.uberculosis, a?d 1,000 carcasses were destroyed at abattOIrs hpcause they were '3imilarly affected. Tho d'cstructiol1 from actinomycosis amounted to 330 head, from pleuro-pucumonia 700, allel 1.000 pleuro-pneumonia contacts WHe also destroyed. This brought the total destruction up to 3,350 annually. I think it is reasonable to put the average value per head at £6, and thel compensa­tion necessary on the figures I have just quoted would be about £20,100. This Bill provides for compensation to the amount of £45,000 annually.

lVIr. HOGAN.-We expect that a much larger number of diseased cattle will he

594 Cattle [ASSEM.BLY. ] Compensation Bill.

reported when compensat.ion is provided. Owners do not report them now.

Mr. CAIN.-We put the avetrage a bit higher than you. £10 was suggested as the price of a carcass at the abattoirs.

Mr. LIND.-I think tha,t is dist.inctly high. Take prices of stock a,t the present time. It is possible to buy a, good store bullock at £6 or £7, and - an ordinary storel cow at £4.

Mr. HOGAN.-The honorable membelr for Hampden did not think we werel pro· viding enough compensatiOin.

Mr. OMAN.-I did not take the figures supplied by the HOinorary Minister as' being of much value.

Mr. LIND.-I listened to the, honOor· able membe,r for Hampden with some sur­prisel, and I ma,y refer to his remarks a little later. I do not see why cattlemen should be asked tOo. cont,ributel £45,000, as prQlvided by this Bill.

Mr. HOGAN.-If the' amO'unt realized is more than is required, wei can reduce the tax next yea.r.

Mr. LIND.-I am not very much con':' cerned about that., becausel I belielve tha,t' before we are done with this Bill the Go­vernment will give us more definite in­formation than Woel have, had up to the presernt timel, and that thel amount which will be asked for will not be' ne'arly so gre'at as I ha,ve suggested. If there is an exce,ss ove,r the amQlunt Oof compensa,tion which is required, I do not see why it should not bel refunded to' thosel who con­tributed to'wards "the fund.

Mr. CAIN .-It will be easier to reduce t.he rate next year.

Mr. LIND.-Thel ho-norable, gentleman must recolleet that many people who. co.ntribu.te this yelar ma.y not do SOl ne,xt.

Mr. MORLEY.-All the bette,r for them. Mr. LIND.-I cannOot see. that at all.

But, however, I need not dweU longelr on that aspe,ct of the case. The hono-ra.ble member for Hampden congratula,ted the Governmen t Q1n what he called its gene.­rosity in proposing to provide 20 per cent. towards the compensation fund from the, Consolidated Revenue. I think that per­centage is unreasonably low. It must be remembered that this 20 pe,r cent. is to be paid only in rega,rd tOi beasts found to be suffering from tuberculosis or actino­mycosis. Those are the only diseases re­ferred to in this Bill t.hat are communi­cable t~ human beings. Thel delaths from those diseases total 1,650, according to the figures supplioed by the Minister. If the

beasts were wo'rth £6, the Governmen t contribution would be £2,000. If they we,re, worth £7, it would be £2,310, and if they were worth £8, the total would be only £2,640. Tha,t is all tha,t would come out of the Consolidated Re,voellue. It is quite, evident t.hat this Bill has been introduced-and properly so, too-in the interests of thel consumers of milk, meat, and butter, a.n_d the- public health gene· ra.lly. That, of course, should be our first cOonsideration. I hope that the Minister will acknowledge that the people who are going to benefit to. the greatest extent, if this Bill is carried into law, should con­tribute more than the paltry sum I have referred to. I should like to remind hOll­

orable members that about 53 per cent. of the tOotal population of tliis State is in the metropolitan area. We have also provincial towns 0.£ considerable size, and, according to the proposal no.w before us, the residents in the metropolis and in the large provincial centres will contribute only 20 per cent. to this fund. I should like to ask if that i6 a fair proportion, more especially when we take into con­sideration the fact that those who bear the greater portion of this tax live out­back in wild country, and in many instances from 80 to 100 miles from the nearest railway station. Thel honorable member for Hampden suggested that no district was immune from these diseases. I may tell the honorable member that they are absolutely unknown in the exten­sive district of Gippsland East tllat I represent.

Mr. DEANY. - They were not known in the vVarrnambool district until a few years ago.

Mr. LIND.-Wen, I can assure the honorable member that they are unknown in mv electorate. I should like the hono-r­able vmember for Warrnam15oo1 -to sav how it is that these diseases were kno~n to exist only -a few years ago in his elec­torate,.

lVIr. DEANY.-The existence of the dis­eases was disclosed on account of dairy supervision.

Mr. LIND.-The diseases manifest themselves because of ca,ttle coming into close conta,ct with one ano.ther.

:Th1r. WALTER.-N ot at all. Mr. LIND.-I am satisfied that is the

case. As districts become settled, herds of cattle get closer to' one another. In the district I represent there is so much open space that disease is not nearly so

Cattle [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Compensation Bill. 595

likely to be spread by contact as it is in other localities where they have to graze in fairly congested areas. I do. no.t blame the Minister for desiring to protect the community, but I do not think that that should be brought about at the expense of a few struggling cattle-men in the out­back parts of this State. I am not <l:P­pro.aching this matter from a par~chial pOoint o.f view at all. I want to gIve a fair deal to everybody, but the Govern· ment will not have my vote if it is pro­posed to secure this protection at the ex­pense of a· few people who are breeding store cattle in the outlying portions Oof this State, and who are trying to develop this fair State of ours. These, men are carrying on a national wo.rk, and there is not a member of this House-not even the hono.rable member for Gippsland West­who will not support me in my conten­tion that these, men must receive every consideration.

Mr. HOGAN.-In addition to providing this 20 pe,r cent. out 0.£ the Consolidated Revenue, the Government .is bea,ring the whole of the cost of administration, which is estimated to·be £2,800.

Mr. LIND.-That is all' right, but still the amount which will be contri­buted out of the Consolidated Revenue is not sufficient, in my opinion. I agree with those who will support' this Bill on the ground that its provisions are in. the inte,rests of consumers of meat and mIlk.

:i.VIr. DEANY.-They will have to pay for it.

Mr. LIND.-I am not so sure 'about that.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-It will be passed on. Make no mistake about that.

:i.VIr. LIND.-I do not know how the tax is going to be passed on, and if I can be shown in what way it can I will be delighted to sup'port a provision to that end.

Mr. CAIN.-I do not intend to try to show you that.

:Mr. LIND.-And 110 one else in the Housel can sho.w me'. Many men ha,ve suffered tremendous losses in the past, and I do not want to see a repetition {)f that sort of thing.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-How do you suggest to finance the scheme, '?

Mr. LIND.~I want to show how the Government are going to financel the,ir schemel. The, proposed tax is inequitable,. The consumer is to pay aboout 20 per cent,. into this fund for compensation in

regard to cattle that a,re destroyed or die from actinomycosis or tube,rcul08is.

Mr. DEANY.-That is only the direct tax. They pay the othe,r 80 per cent. in directl y .

Mr. LIND.-There, is nothing in the Bill about that. The contribution from the dairyman will not amount too ve,ry much. He has his heifers. They come in after the first calvin~. They are re­tained until the,ir day of use,fulness is past, when they are put intol t!!.e yards, and prolbably sOlId for about 308.

l\1r. HOGAN.-Dairymen have, to pay 6d. a head unde,r the Dairy Supervision Act.

Mr. LIND.-We are not now dealing with that Act., and I want to show how th£· people will be affected by the present measure if passed into law. The dairyman's contribution tOo the fund, when he sells his Oold cows afte,r a, te,rm .of usefulness, is about l~d. The,n there is the position of thel store cattleman, the breeder out in the back country whose cattle do not come into contact with other cat.tle that are dise,ased. The storel cattleman's cattle are practically immune from these diseases. He has to contribute annually 1d. in the £1 fOor every beast that he owns. He sells a 'draft of cattle practically every year. The dairyman'S herd will consist, probably, of 10, 15, 20, or maybe up to 40 cows. If he contributed annually his contribu­tion 'would not' amount to very much. But the man outback who is producing cattle sells, probably, 200, 300, and up to 500 head annua.lly. We can see ho'w much his contribution to the fund would be. Many of these cattle are bought by the land­owners on the flatlands on the rivers, where they are' fattened. Now le,t us come down tOo the river fiats, the' rich country where' cattle are fattened. The fattener pays another contribution to the fund. The cattleman in one district may pay two contributions to this fund within twe,lve months.

An HONORABLE MBMBER.-Do you say that cattle ill East Gippsland are immune from tu berculosis ~

M.r. ,LIND.-I have not stated that there is no tuberculosis amongst cattle' 111 East Gippsla,nd.

Dr. ARGYLE.-The cattle have nOot been tested th€'re.

1\lr. LIND.-There are many people who could bear out my statement that the dise'ase is more gene,ra.lly known in the lower country and on the river fiats.

596 Cattle [ASSEMBLY.) Compensation Bill.

Mr. VVEAVER.-How about Dandenong ~ lVIr. LIND.-That is the hot-bed of this

dise.ase. The hono,rable' membe'l' for Dandenong was so anxious to get the Bill that he did not €,ven wait fOor the second reading of it, but congratula,ted th€, Pre­mie·r immedia.tely aftecr." the re,ading of his policy programme on the reference that it contained to the Bill.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-You con­demn the, form of raising the money. What is your substitutel for it 1

Mr. LIND.-I think the most e,quit­able plan would be to supply thel compen­sation from gene,ral re.ven ue.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Poor old gen€,ral revenue!

M'r. LIND.-If that were done, the consumer, the dairyman, file, ca ttle-raiser, and everybody would contribute his rea­sonable share of the compensation to be paid. However, I do not wish the 1\1inis­tel' to fO'rm the conclusion tha,t I sha.ll necessa.rily vote against the Bill with­out offering some amendments for Ill:!

improvement. The J\:Iinister whol intro­duced it show-ed a pleasing desire to com­promise, and he invited honorable mem­bers to' make sugge,stions. I am making suggesti011s. If _the dairymen were asked to' make a definite. annual contribution to this fund at sO' much per head per cow, I do not think any of them would refuse. We might also ask the cattlemen, whose districts are practically immune from the disease, to contribute.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-You want a general registration fee or a poll tax?

Mr. LIND.-Something like· that. The consumers in the rnetrop~lis and the pro­yincial towns should contribute out of general re,venue.

Mr. W AImE.-They will contribute all right j they will find the whole of the money-they always do.

Mr. LIND.-I know one, of them who does pretty well, any way. I am sure he would not like to share the lot of tho man out in the back country who raises the beef, of which he gets his fair share.

Mr. WARDE.-The, producer gets ,a good profit.

1\1[1'. LIND.-If he does, he needs it. However, I want to ask the 1\1inister to give members who are interested an oppor­tunity of discussing the, Bill a little fur­ther wit.h him. It "vould be a good idea if representatives of all parties in this House met the Minister in conference, and placed before him their suggestions for

improving the Bill. I am sure that the upshot would be a Bill most acceptable to all the members of this House. We could then go to. the people whom we represent with a clear conscience, knowing that we had done what we felt tOo be right in the interests of eve,ry section of the com­munity.

Mr. EVERARD.-At. that rate we· should llever get the Bill through.

1\11'. CAIN.-We will give eve·ry oppor­tunity' for discussion.

Mr. LIND.-But ~Ne should have a meeting of the different parties to discuss the Bill. If that is not done, I shall be inclined to oppose the Bill.

1\11'. HOGAN.-VVe take it that. honor­able members desire some form of cattle com pensation. Weare prepared to con­sider amendments in Committee.

Mr. LIND.-I am prepared tOo draft an amendment in re,lation to ways and means.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK,-The whole point turns on how the money is to be raised. Everybody is in favour of cattle compensation.

Mr. LINp.-That is the point to be thrashed out. Personally, I think the compensation should come from general re­venue, but I do not ask that we should go as far as that. I think there should be a greater contribution from the general re­venue than from the dairymen and men engaged in rearing store: cattle, and I shall take the opp'ortunity, if the Bill reaches the third reading, to move certain amendmen ts.

1\11'. BEARDMORE.-I rise to oppose this Bill.

1\11'. GRovEs.-Thank goodness we know where you are.

M'r. HOGAN.-The Oppos1ition appears to be a bit mixed.

lVIr. BEARDMORE.-There is another sjde to the picture than that referred to by one or two of my colleagues and by the Gove,rnn1.ent. I have had requests fro111 all my shire councils in the Upper 1\furray to strenuously oppose the Bill.

Mr. FRosT.-And you are obeying orders, are you?

Mr. BEARDMORE.-I should not obey the orders if I did not feel that I could do so conscientiously. 1\![y sym­pathies are not with t.he Bill. The Bill really makes it compulsory lor graziers to pay the dairyman for the dairyman's dis­eased cattle. There is not the slightest doubt that this is a health measure. It

Cattle [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Compensation Bill. 597

has been brought forvvard in th\) jnterests or the health of t.he people.

Dr. ARGYLE.-Not altogether. :Mr. CAIN.-Plus the interests of the

people whn lose their stock. :i.Vlr BEARDMORE.-I am afraid

there' is little practical sympathy with the people who lose their stnck. I am not however, opposing the. Bill from that point of view. I think that some prn­vision should be made whereby the health of the community may be pro­tected. If it was proposed in this Bill to deal with a, trnuble which we know is ill evidence in a way that would be fair to the whole of the people of the State, I 'would support it. As the Leade.f of the Opposition said, a Bill is necessary, but I do not think that we should agree to a measure which will unduly tax the graziers who live in the far back moun­tainous country, and who raise perhaps 100 head of cattle for everyone that a dairyman raises. The matter of diseases ill cattle is being dealt with efficiently at the present time. We have a Public Health Department which emplnys quali­fioel lllen to protect us in the abattoirs where stock are killed, and that gives us some. security in regard to the wholesome­ness of the meat we eat. There is the other question of the dissemination of disease by means of the milk and butter supplies. I recognize that milk may be a great distributer of disease, but I fail to see why, by a clumsy method, revenue should be raised to compensate people whose dairy cattle have to be destroyed owing to disease, and that revenue found by people who graze cattle in the northern, the nnrth-eastern, and the Gippsland cnuntry. As previous speakers have pointed out, in' the highlands referred to we are not subject to cattle diseases. The land is pnnr, and the only way in which 'n livelihood can be obtained from it is by the raising of cattle. They are raised perhaps to. yearlings. Some of the graziers cannot keep their stock longer than that. They are then brought to the market and snld. They are sold and re­sold until pe'rhaps they are three years old, by which time they may have had a dozen o-wners. The men whO' are rear­ing cattle on these po-or lands find it hard to live, but they have no 0'ther means of Jiyclihood. They have to turn the cattle over when the youngsters want new ll()ot~, or the auctioneers' bill falls due.

I shculd not abject to a Bill which would compel all dairymen to contribute to a fund for the compensation of a man whose dairy cattle were condemned and destro,yed .. That would be right, but the way-back graziers should not be penalized in the way that it is proposed in this Bill. Under the Bill as it stands the same· cattle might be taxed se,veral times in the one year.

1\11'. OMAN.-Could we not provide in the Bill that the stamp duty should not be paid in respect of the same cattle more, than once in the one year ~

Mr. BEARDMORE.-If it were pro­vided that in respect of the one beast only the. one penalty should be paid, that would not be so bad.

Mr. FROsT.-The dealer would escape then.

1\1r. BEARD1\10RE.-The dealer is very necessary to us in finding markets for stock. The grazier seems to have very few friends indeed. There is any amount nf barracking in this House f0'r the wheat­grower. When we were raising the rail­way freights SOlne time ago, every possible consideration was shown to the producer, and he was not called upon to pay the 15 per cent. increase. A reduction in freights is to come into force to-morrow, but n0'thing is said a.bout the unfortunate grazier. The wheat-grower, however, is among the "toffs," anq we kno'w that he has had a gnod time during the last seven or eight years. I have often wished that I and my son were wheat-growing instead of cattle-raising.

}\tIr. LIND.-The ca,ttle men have been harder hit than any other section of the producers during the last few years.

Mr. BEARDMORE.-Tha,t is so. During the last few ye,ars thousands of cattle in my district. have been killed to make room for pigs, and in cases where cattle have been sent up to the Murray, they have cost £11 a head, and it costs three or f'our of the fat heifers to pay the freight to bring the balance to Melbourne.

J\1r. FROST .-And yet we ha,ve to pay Is. 6d. a lb. for rump steak.

Mr. BEARDMORE.-Yes. That. does not alter the fact that during the, last few years young cattle have' nO't been worth rearing. The average dairyman does not raise the, young cattle. The,y kill the calves and buy pigs, . and they sell " Biddy" and" Janey" and" Granny," a few head of olel cows, every year just to keep things going.

598 Cattle [ASSEMBLY. ] C01npensation Bill.

Mr . .DEA~Y.-They supply thel people with cheap butter and milk.

1\11'. BEARDlVIORE.-I admit that. I do not say that the dairymen havel not a hard row to hoe, nor that they dOl nat earn eve,ry penny they get. I cannot, however, support this Bill, and I would suggest to the Government that they should cut it out. . I hopei there are enough men in the Housel who are in­terested in cattle-raising and will stand up and say on this motion for the, second rea.ding, " Out with it." If the Govern­ment would bring forward a Bill which wauld embrace dairy cattle anly, requiring the dairyman to pay a reasonable tax, and finding the' balancel required fot the Com­pensatiO'n Fund from the general revenue, I should be prepared to consider it. By the time the, people who. have been rearing ca,ttlel a,way back have paid freights t.o Melbourne, there is not much left fO'r them. The consumers ge,t the cream, and the producers get the skim milk.

Mr. GROVES.-You would appelar to be the "mugs."

Mr. BEARDMORE.-There are tens o.f thousands of acres o.f land in the mountainous districts only suitable for the raising 'of cattle, . but under this Bill, whenever these gra,ziers send their cattlel to market, they are going to be penalized because of outbreaks of disease in 6the,r districts. We protelct the, public health through the Public Health Depart­moot, and if we are, now going to protect the dairymen, let the dairymen and those who use the producel o.f the dairy pay for it. We should nO't penalize the men who are rearing cattle on the poor lands away back, and who have enough to' put up with a,t present.' The Bill if passed win not accomplish all that is anticipa.ted from it. The,re is go.ing to be a, good delal o.f trafficking as the result of the measure, especially in the border districts. Cattle will be sent to the other side of the Murray, and in that way these! penalties will be e.vaded.

Mr. CAIN.-N a. compensation will be paid in respect of cattle until they have been in this Statel for three months.

Mr. BEARDMORE.-Of cO'urse, the cattle will be he,ld fo.r a sufficient length of time to. Enable thel compensation to be cla.imed.

Mr. BAILEY.-You are talking about a,reas where stock are immunel from disease'; prO'bably the reason why they are supposed to be immune is that there is

no supe,rvision, and diseasEI is only de­tected when the stock are sent to. market.

Mr. BEARDMORE.-There IS little or no: disease in the country to which I am referring, and the graziers there can· manage their awn business. It would be very harsh to penalize them because 01 dise!ase in othell' districts.

Mr. CAIN.-A man may lose the whole of his herd by disease. Is he not to be compensated ~

Mr. BEARDMORE. - Wha.t is re· quired can be achieved by the supervision of dairies. . DOl not let us penalize the man who is raising cattle for a living.

l\1r. CAIN.-You believe in penalizing everybody but the people who live ir. Benambra.

Mr. BEARDl\10RE.-1 do not believe in penalizing the people who. live in moun­tainous places, wherel cattle are not sub­ject to disease. Fro.m my point of view, there is only one legitimate provision in the Bill, and that is the clause that taxes the cattle-owners from other States who use our markets.

Mr. BRO'WNBILL.-Isn't it wo.rth while supporting the Bill for the purpose.of get­ting that through ~

Mr. BEAJ3.DMORE.-NO'; that will not find the pounds, shillings, and pence for the poo.r fellows in my district who have to battle hard to. make a living. I do not want to take up any further time. All I say to the, Government is, "With­draw your. Bill ~ kill it stone dead; it is of no. use to. us." _

Mr. BUOWNBILL.-Where would you hit it ~ .

Mr. BEARDlVI0RE. - Straight be­tween the eyes. It proposes to tax un­fairly men rearing cattle, that are not affected by disease.

Mr. GRavEs.-Would you support the Bill if dairymen alone had to pay the tax ~ M~. BEARDMORE .-1 would support

the Bill if the dairynlen had to. pay a reasonable tax. If the object is to' get clean herds, I take it that every dairyman would be pr!=lpared to. pay his fair share.

Mr. GROVES.-YO'U would have sup­ported the. Bill the previous Government bro.ught in last session ~

Mr. BEARDMORE. -Not to the fullest extent.

M,r. GROVES.-YO'U would not have supported it at all. .

Mr. BEARDMOR.E.-Xlthough I was associated with it, I think the previo.us Government was digging pretty deeply

Cattle [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Compensation Bill. 599

and quoting figures that could not be justified. 1 was not prepared to support a tax of Is. per cow.

lVIr. OMAN.-The proposal was a tax of 3d. per cow.

lVlr. BEARDl\10RE.-The first pro· posal was for a tax of Is. per cow.

Mr. BROWNBILL.-What happened to that Bill? {'

M'r. BEARD¥ORE.-Thel Government was put out, and I suppose the Bill went out with it. As 1 saId befOore, ,. Let us alone. The man living away back has trouble enough already."

o Mr. BROWNBILL.-What about bearing one another's burdens ~

Mr. BEARDM.ORE.~I 0.00 not think we need to carry that scriptural injunc­tion to t.he extent of asking the men in the north to bear a share of the burdens of the men in Lower Gippsland. The cattleman has got his back to the wall. The men with cattle in my district and men further back are just on their beam-ends. They do not know how they are going to carryon. They have reared 30, 40, 50, and up to 100 head of young cattle, and they have nOot averaged .for therri lOs. a head a year. They are Just able to make a. living, and the introduc­tion of this Bill is inopPOortune inasmuch as they have just gone through the ~ardest time of their existence. To-day they are practically inclined to throw up the land because they are carrying the land instead of the land carrying them.

Mr. LIND.-They cannot put sheep on because of the dogs and Oother pests.

lVir. BEARDl\1:0RE.-That is so. Mr. HOGAN.-The dairyman is in ex­

actly the same position as the men of w bom you are speaking. He cannot ~ell the cattle he rears at any better prIces than they.

l\1r. BEARDMORE.-We have just been told that the dairyman makes £14 a year from each cOoW.

An HONORABLE MEMBER.-LoOok how hard he works for it. o M'r. BEARDMORE.-The dairymen do not rear calves.

)lr. HOGAN.-They do rear calves. Mr. BEARDl\1:0RE.-In many places

I know they rear only sufficient calves to ~estock as the cows become old. ~t the present time it does nOot pay a daIryman or anyone else. to re~r a young beast unless it is a chOIce heIfer. A man who refiTS anvthing else loses money. I ~ope hOllorabie members are sufficiently faIr to

throw the Bill out, or to omit from it those provisions that will hit hard thE graziers and the cattlemen who are mak­ing a very poor living at the present time.

lVIr. lVIACKRELL.-I take somewhat the same line of argument as the two pre­vious speakers, because I see in the pic­ture the dairyman, and the cOonsumer, and also the outback grazier who will have to pay, or largely pay, the cost Oof carry­ing out the measure. I quite agree that we want a Cattle Compens1ation Bill of some description for the sake· of the health of the people. It is a terrible thing to think that milk from tuberculous Co\VS reaches the cities, and is given to children. If this Bill will prevent tha~and I be­lieve .it will, because I understand that in New Zealand tuberculosis has been practically wiped out through a Cattle Compensation Act-it will be a good thing. But with previous speakers, I do not think that the grazier away outback should be compelled to pay the whole of the cost, and that is just about what the Bill provides. It must be remembered that the reason for the Bill is the health of the people. The value of the sheep that die every year from disease is far greatel' than the value of the cattle that dip from diRease, yet there is no taJKj of: !a. she~p compensat.iorn Bill. If a sheep is killed at the abat­toirs jn tho city and found to be diseased, it is thrown aside. Every ani­mal that is killed at the abattoirs is branded in four places-inside and out­side on each side. The people of the cities are protected, but in the country the people are not protected in the same way. As I have said, there is no talk of a Bill to provide compensation in re­spect of diseased sheep, because sheep's milk is not used. It is because of the necessity of securing a pure milk supply that the Bill has been introduced. There­fore, seeing that the d~irymen and the consumers of milk in the cities are the people who are going to benefit from the measure, with previous speakers I con­sider that the dairymen should contribute more than is proposed. If that cannot be brought about I would say that the contribution from the general revenue should be at least 50 per cent. instead of 20 per cent. I believe that the Mans­field line in my constituency sends more fat cattle to :~Melbourne than nny line in

GOO Cattle [ASSElVIBL Y . J Compen8at~:on Bill.

Victorino People buy calves from the uuiryrnen mostly when@they are yearling~.

.1\11'. lIooAN.-Y ou admit that they buy them from the dairymen?

Mr. MAOKRELL.-Yes. But the dairymen will have precious little to pay in stanlp duty. The calves are taken away back and fattened. After they havo been kept four or five years they are sold. It is unfair to ask graziers away back to coniributu whelt they get no benefit.

~1:r. GAIN.-They will get a benefit if beasts belonging to them are condemned in the yards.

Mr. MAOKHELL.-The grazier will get a benefit in that case, but very few beasts \vill be condemned in the yards. In his own district the producer has no protection, because a butcher can kill whatever animal he likes. The people in :Melbourne get all the protection, and the people in the country who do not get any protection have to pay for it.

Mr.· GROVES. - Municipalities have power to extend the Meat Supervision Act, but they will not do it.

Mr. MAGKRELL.-It is all very well to say that, but it would be impossible to have an inspector at . every small slaughterhouse. As a matter of fact; I do not think there is very muoh disease in cattle north of the Dividing Range. I [1m satisfied that there is yery little in my electorate'. I have heard of pleuro-pneumonia in that part of the country only once. It occurred on the border of my electorate, and it was known where the disease came from. I think there is precious little tuberculosis in cattle north ·of the Dividing Range. I believe that my electorate and that of the honorable membor for Benambra meets somewhere in "No Man's Land," and if you go through that country you will find tens of thousands of cattle that have been reared there. Subsequently they find their way down to l\1elbourne as fats. It 'LS the men who :raise those cattle who are being asked to pay for all the benefits that are to be conferred on the people of this city. The principal object of the Bill is to provide purer milk for the children, and but for that I would not look at the measure at all.

~fr. OAIN.-It provides compensation for the small farmer or the big farmer \,-ho loses his stock.

Mr. MAOKRELL.-The Bill asks the men in two-thirds of the State who are raising cattle to provide compensation for the dairymen in about one-third of the State.

:NIr. OAIN.-Half the cattle ill the State are owned b;r .. dai17men.

JYIr. :MA.OKRELL.-rhat may be, but not the cattle that are slaughtered.

lY1r. OAIN.-Half the cattle condemned by Government officers are cattle slaughtered in the abattoirs.

Mr. M,AOKRELL.-A.t any rate, I am satisfied th_at two sets of people come into the picture-the dairymen and the con­sumers-and I say that those people should contribute more than is proposed, whereas the Governmen t asks the man who is raising stock, growing them into store stock, and pro ba bly ·selling them to some one else to fatten, to pay. As the honorable member for Gippsland East has said, probably fees will have to be paid 0.11

the same animals two or three times. A calf may be bought from a dairyman for 15s. or £1; it may then be take~ away back as a store for. three or four years, and may then be sold for £6 or £8 to a fattener, who may subsequently sell it for £10 or £12. Stamp duty will have to be paid in respect of each of those transactions. It is asked that the man outback should pay practically the whole of the cost that the Bill will entail. It is a dairymen's and consumers' measure, and I think the general revenue should contribute at least 50 per cent. of the cost. Then there is the question 0.£ freight O~l caHle. To-morrow a 10 per cent. reduction ill the railway freight on various classes of agricultural produce will commence to operate. I am very pleased with' the concession. To-day, however, cattlemen are ha.ving t.he WOTst time they ha ve, ever had, and I think that the 10 per cent. reduction in the railway charges should have been e,xtended to them. N ow this Bill comes along and imposes Oon them a tax. It is only a small tax, but it is another pin prick to those. engaged in an industry which is in a mest precarious position. I have on my own property heifers of good types that I would be lucky to get £4 apiece for. A lamb would fetch very nearly as much as some of them. I cannot sell those heifers, and I am letting the calves run with them. Probably it would be bei-ter for me tOo take £3 a bead

Cattle L 30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Compensation Bill. (101

for the heifers, because next year they may not be worth so much. Everybody who knows anything about cattle to--day ig nw:.U'c that yon can hardly give heifers away. This Bill will not make things very much better as far as the owners of stock are concerned. It will make things beUer for the r.onSUm8! iu thr. r.ity. and also for the dairyman. Should not the House take that into consideration and ask the consumer and the dairyman to foot the bill, and not the Q1ther poor fellow whO' is struggling along ~

1\lr. CAIN .-DQI you contend that the gl'azicr is struggling?

lVIr. 1\lACKRELL.-I certainly do. V cry often the grazicr has to struggle more than the honorable gentleman thinks. . Therc are any number of graziel's who are small men. They are raising cattle where it would be im­possible to raise sheep.

lVIr. BROWNBILL.-Some are big men.

Mr. :MA.OKRELL.-No doubt; but there are any number of men who can­not put sheep on their land. I know large areas of co-untry. where you ~ould not ke~p sheep for six months.

lVlr. LIND.-You could not put sheep on the mountain country. .

Mr. MACKRELL.-That is so, but I am talking about fattening country. Everyone knO\vs tha t if you put sheep on land of a certain class they will ha,ve foot-rot and fluke in no time. There­fore, the holders of those areas are com­pelled to deal ill cattle', Under this Bill t.hey are being asked to pay a IOit. 1 believe in legislation SO' as to ensure to the· city a supply Q1f pure food. It is wrong to risk a child being given milk full of tuberculous germs that would ·weakcn and perhaps kill it. In my opinion, that is a terrible fhing, and no man would permit it if he could possibly stnp it.

il1r. BRow:\,BILL.-This is o-no way of stopping it. __

:Mr. l\1:ACKRELL.-No doubt; but the peo.ple who are receiving the real henefit o.f this measure-the consumers on the one hand and the dairymen on the other-are not being asked to con­tribute as much as the man \"ho raises cattle and fattens them.

lVIr. BROWNBILL.-Do vO'u not think tlu~t the consumer is payi;lg a good deal noVi for his meat ~

l\1r. l\lACKRELL.-He should not be paying very much for beef. l\1:utton, I admit, is dear. I know that beef was sold at g·d. a. lb. to a man who boiled it down and fed· pigs with it. Y OoU could have bought a, whole forequarter of a bullock at -Jd. a lb.

Mr. BEARDMORE.-You should get 1\11'. Clapp on the job-Eat mOore meat.

l\Ir. ·l\IACKRELL.-That is practi­cally what I said myself in this House.

Mr. CAIN.-Do you know that 200,000 head of cattle go through the Newmarket yards annually, and that 60,000 head of dairy cattle are sold annually in the Oity Market, Sydney-road?

l\1:1'. :!VIACKRELL.-I have seen 500 head brought down in one mob and sold in the l\1ansfield market. They had not seen civilization since thoy ,vere calves.

l\1:r. CAIN.-Ultimately, store stock come to the lVlelbourne yards.

l\lr. 1\IACKRELL.-Put down that lot O'f 500 at .£10 a. head, and it will be seen that the seller would have to con­tribute a good deal under this Bill. The stock would be all right. There would be no disease, especially in those from the higl). country. As far as this Bill is con­cerned the seller would get nothing out of it. In view of the cirClIDlstances existing in the country, I do not se'e why graziers alo~g the Goulburn River or in other fatt'ening country should con­tribute more than their share to-wards meeting the expense under this measure. In 111y opinion, at least 50 per cent. should be con­tributed out 0.£ the general revenue. Bear in mind that the graziers themselves COll­tribute to the general revenue,. I feel sure that those representing the, dairymen would be agreeable to contribute a. little more, relieving to a corresponding ext'ent the men who are having a pretty bad time with their cattle, which to-day are not worth much.

Dr. ARGYLE.-This Bill is one that should have been taken in conjunction with any legislation designed to improve the milk supply of the people. I have always 'said, in speaking to n milk Bill, tllat nothing that was done in the form of drafting regulations and taking; steps to safeguard the purity of the milk, both for children and adults, was of very much value unless it was followed by legjsla­tion designed to eliminate (lis'eased cattle

602 CaUle [ASSEMBL Y . J Compensation Bill.

from the 'State. This Bill, however, can~ not be regarded solely as a health mea~

.-sure, although one of its principal func-tions is to g~t rid of diseased stock. Still, the stock In themselves are a very

'great asset to the St.ate,. The herds 'of the State are of tremendous moment to the primary producer, from Eastern tlippslalld to the Vl estern District and from the sea to the :M urray. Oonse­quently, any genuine effort to improve the health of those herds must re-act on the general welfare of the State. It seems to me that it is in the interests of those who are concerned with the welfare of the primary producer, particularly the one who deals in stock, to try to arrive at some common line of actiOli by which the conflicting interests can be woven together into one. In that way something may be done, in which all shades of political opinion may combine, to produce a mea­sure that will bring about this desirable result and yet not solve th{s financial diffi­culty at the expense of anyone section of the community. Before going on to· that aspect of the case I would like to deal with the health point of view. Naturally that is the point of view I know mo~1 about, but I do not propose to teach the honorable member for Gippsland East how to handle cattle, nOor the hon­OI'able member for Gippsland West how dairy herds should be managed. We should all endeavour to look at this matte,r from a broad and COompreheusive point of view. If wei can weld this mea­sure into some,thing with which we, can all agre,e we shall accomplish a work of great moment, and tha,t will be, of incalculable value to future generations, and to the producers themselves. The problem is how to arrive at an equitablel distribution of the cost. The whole trouble is one of finance. We ha vel tOo provide a fund out of whicn the owners of diseased cattle that are destroyed by order of Govern­ment . officials can be compensated, a.nd t.hat is very difficult. 1'0 start with, the herds of the State are not all dairy herds. There are in the mountainous districts certain people, who, live by breeding cattle, fattening them later Oll, and selling them for meat and other purposes to dealers, from whom they go straight to the city to the, persons who buy and sen as a means of livelihood. This Bill means that eve,ry transaction that tal,es place shall bear a tax. It is conc.eivable that some cattle

Ill". A l'U!J1e.

of the same, he,rd could be. taxed ove.r and over again during the course OJ twelve­mont.hS 7 and pass, not only from hand to hand, but from district to district and from one portion Oof the 8tate, to an~iher. It has also to be borne in mind that a fairly large number of stock come across the border t.hrough other States, and these have to be taken into 'Consideration. Coming. back to the question of the pro­bl?ll1 of heal~h there seems to' be a slight nllsapprehensl~n as to the way in which one of these ~Iseases, at any rate, is con­veyed fl'.om dIseased stock to human beings, -that IS tuberculos~s. The question of whether the, fmm of tuberculosis whicIl a1fe'cts cattle, is the same diseasel as that ~vhich affects h1:1man beings was the- sub­Ject of great controversy in the sCIentific world some years ago. Koch, the Ger­lna~ bacteriologist, startle,d the world by sa,ymg that therel was nO' connexioll be­tween'" the, two diseases. Tha t pronounce­ment set back in this State-I remember it very weU, indeed-the, efforts of the health reformers in endeavouring to eradi­cate this particular disease from cattle. It so shocked the British Government that they appoint.ed a Royal Commission to in­vestigat€, the subject. AJt€,r many years de~Toted to patient conectioll of eviclenre by men who were masters of their work, the Commission brought in a report which e,xploded Koch's idea. that this disease in cattle could not bel conveyed to human beings.

Mr. LIND.-Can it bel conveyed by means of milk and me,at both ~

Dr. ARGYLE.-Yes; I am coming to the, methods. There is a misapprehension amongst people, as to how this disease, is convetyed. I will leave out meat for· the present and de,al only with milk. The disease in the form in which it attacks peOople who drink milk is not the, disease commonly knOown as consumption, al­though that may occur. It is more generally in the form of diseases of the bones and .lOomts, and they are }lot necessarily fatal, but often are. They are horribly crippling to the young, and inflict a tremendous amount of suffering. HonOorable members have only tOo walk across to, the Childrens' Hos­pital, and the,y will see' a. whole ward of children suffering from' this particular form of tuberculosis. These children may get better, but: t.h.e,y will be, crippled for the rest of theIr bves, and some of them will die. Thel whole, of that disease, is not

Cattle ~30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Compensation Bill. 603

attributable to cattle, but only ~, propor­tion of it, and the difficulty is to find out how much. That question has been in­vestiga ted on the other side. of the world and also here, and it has been discovered that about 25 per cent. of these cases are definitely duel to the eating or drinking of foodstuffs contaminated \yith the germs of the disease. The honorable member for Gippsland East is under a misappreheu. sion. He said that the people in the city ,vere more conceorned with this disease than the people in the country. That i& not so: The greatest danger occurs to any person, whether he lives in the country or the CIty, who drinks the mIlk of one cow which is tubercular. Dilution is a gre,at factor in preserving us from the. disease. W'e geL a mixed supply of milk, with one 01' two tubercular cows in 40 or 50. By mere dilution the extent of the infection is not sufiicient to create the disease. The honoraole member for Gipps­land East was right when he said that when djseased ca,ttle get intO' the, thick dairy herds, whe,re large, quantities of milk are produced, the very propinquity of the cattle! helps to spread the disease,. That is true. But that is not the point I want to make. I say that there is m~,re danger from the milk of 'one cow than from thel milk of a helrd. The children in thel country are just as liable to' get tuberculosis in this fo:rm as the children in the city. I think I may say they are more, liable, consequently it is a matter of importance to country m'embers that they should keep their h~rds free' from this particular disease. Quite apart from the financial and economic aspects of the question, it' is an important mat­ter that we, should com bine somehow to eradicate this disease from our herds ~ltogether. Deumark has done that. I know that Denma,rk is not the same! as Australia. Australia ought to be better. In Denmark they house, all their cattle, and they are more liahle. to ge,t the disease. Relfe we have sunshine,. Denmark has cleaned the> dise!ase out. How ~ By getting every beast that reacts, and segregating and destroying it where it is dangerous. The milk is pasteurized and rendered safe, and in this way a great economic loss is avoided. In Denmark they have in this way preserved herds from the' ravages of this disease, and incidentally they have protected the population.

Mr. LIND.-Are you going to refer to the source from which Denmark gets the money with which to pay compensation ~

Dr. A.RGYLE.-I will deal with the financial aspect of the question presently. The honorable member says that tubercu­lORis in cattle is unknown in portiolls of Gippsland East. I do not know that that is so. The thing has never been tried out. A. corollary of the Bill would be to ex-

. tend the operation of the Dairy Super·· yision Act if possible over the whole of the State, wherever dairying is being car­rird on. It has been proved in connexi.()n with the Department of l\.griculture that where the Dairy Supervision Act has operated, particularly in 1.·egard. to cattle, ·and they have managed to eliminate djseaseof the udder,which is the most deadly form so far as distribution is COD­cel'ned, they have definitely eliminated a very l,arge factor in the distribution of disease. I propose to read now a short extract from an article by Mr. W. A. N. Robertson, the Ohief Veterinary Officer, which appeared in the Journal of the Department of Agricult'1.£re of the 12th .J anuary, 1921. It is as follows:-

In the first year of supervision (1906·7), a large amount of udder tubercle was' detected; the :percentage of such cases to the total affected "vas 71.8 per cent. Last year only 25 cows were found so affected, and the per­centa.ge was 11.5. This shows a. decrea.se in the amount of detecta.ble udder tuberculosis in thirteen yea.I's of approxima.tely 80 per cent. The effect of this upon the hea.lth of the com­munity cannot be estima.ted; but -that many of the rising genera.tion will live to lead useful lives :in the community, !who would otherwise have been sacrificed to this drea.d disea.se, is undoubted, a.nd some measure of the success in the sa.ving of infant life from dia.rrhrea. and wasting -disease, which has occurred dur­ing recent yea.rs, must stand as a. firm founda· bionfor ·a monument to theeffica'cy of our Dairy Supervision Act. During the years 1910 to 1913, a. means ,was at hand of ascerta,ining indirectly wha,t the elimina.tion of so much udder tuberculosis had achieved. For this period, meat ins'pectors under the Board of Public Health were present at each bacon fac­tory thr~ughout the State, and every pig killed was subjected to careful exa.minatioB. Statistics were kept as to the districts from \yhich the pigs came, and the percentage affected with tuberculosis: from each district was determined. It must be remembered that not every district was subject to dairv super­vision, so a contra.st could 'be obtail!ed ~between tubercle in !pigs fed on milk in druiry super­vision districts, and that in pigs fed with milk

601 CaUle ·l .. tSt;.EMBLY. j Compellsation R1·ll.

in non-supervision district::;. The result was caniec1 011. The difficulty is that it 'win striking- not be possible for me to move an umend-

100,13(\ pigs from supervision districts . "'1 showed 4.06 pel' cent. ail'ected. ment 111 Comnlittce that would iucrcase 15n,730 pigs from lion-supervision dis- the spread and the SCOp8 of the taxation.

tricts showed 13.76 pel' cent. aft'ected. I should like to do that. The lesson is olJvious. Since the primary :Mr. BEARD~roRE.~The Government C:ln channel for the spread of tuberculosis in pigs . 1 lS skim milk, it is evident that milk from m~ct you In t lat rcspect. dairy fmpervision areas is pracbically free Dr. ARGYLE.-If tho Government from tubercle bacilli, for it must be l'emem- will meet. me, that will be satisfactory. bered that inspection in milk areas is more But, as thll1gs stand at present, I can only constant thfm in municoipaldistricts; therefore, t f h B'll Lhe supply to such areas should be even more VO c or tel or against it, except ill free tItan is 'indicated by the figures quoted.' regard to some minor details. I admit tho above. It may, therefore, he reasonably claimecl injustice of the proposed taxation. .1 that good work is being done; but this must admit that it ought to be made mo1'<: not be an excuse for resting-further improve- equitable, and I will do my utlnost at JI1E'nts are necessary: some future stage to remedy the inequit,v. It will be seen that after some years' ex- B f 11 h I . .. ut, or a t at, the Bill is so vital to ppr10nce of the operatlOn of the l\.ct three evervbodv I'n th St t t} t I . . '. f d h J.J e I a e la propose to tImes as many plgS ",vere oun to ave. support t}lO second reading. If it 'shoulll tuberculosis in the non-supervised dis- be shown that there are sufficient meIll-tricts as in the supervised districts. Now, b 1 if the Dairy Su].)ervision Act were ex- ers opposec . to t.he proposal to utterly

wreck the BIll, I hope the Honoran' tended to the 'whole'State, we might find :Minister (MI'. Cain) "rill try to amen':'] dlat even in those salubrious districts on jt in the direction I have indicated. the mountain tops or the plateaus where MI'. CAlN.-What is your sugg'estioll? people go in for breeding cattle, therel is D more tuberculosis than might be antici- r. AHGYLE.-My suggestion is that pated. all the il:terested parties-graziel's,

M n ']'1] . b dealers, c1 all'ym en, and consumers-

r. AlLEY.-. ICY lave got It, ut shouli'1 COl1tl'l·.bllte 1'11 bl tl 1 t 1

't ~ l'easona e prO])Ol'-ley (0 no cnow I . tions. Dr. ARGYLE.-Yes; but they have

not got it to the same extent as else- ]VIr. CAlN.-:-They are all to contl'ibutp under the Bill.

where. Still, they have it, and it is cxistent from one end of the State to the Dr. ARGYLE.-N 01'. 011 equal lines. It other. It has been stated that this Bill seems wrong that a man who sells verv is in the interests only of people' in the few cattle, with the exception of his culi~ c:ities who consume meat and mille I and a few young stock he does not want, have tried to explain that that is not so. should pay but a very small tax, whereas The Bill is of very great importance to a man who is constantly turning over all classes of the community, and the cattle, so to speak, should have to pay a method of providing the necessary fund very large tax. On the other hand ono for compensation is the rock upon which must in honesty admit that those ddalers opinion is going to split in this lIouse. who distribute cattle all over the State arc The present proposal, in my opinion, is in some instances responsible for the not scientific nor equitable, and in a sense spread of the diseases that come within it is not quite just. I I quite agree with the·scope of this measure. some of the remarks of the honorable Mr. LlND.-I was' not fighting for the memher for Gippsland East. I think dealer, but for the man who produces. t.hat, under the Bill as drafted, people Dr. ARGYLE.-But that man has to ",'1,'110 live in such district8 as his would he sell fairly large quantities of stock in ("l11e(l upon to pay more than their fair order to make a livelihood at all. The 811nre. Bill that was introduced bv the

:Ml'. B"~Am)l\roRE.-Of course they honorable member for Kara Ka{:a aml y:ould. not gone on with, containe~l a

nr. ARGYLE.-The honorable mem- similar nroposal to that in the l')'~l"s district is ill the same boat. They present Bill, plus a provision for the re­

,,"ould br.- called upon to pay more than gistration' of all cattle. It seems to me tL'l'il' fair share in comparison with c1is- that it might be possible to arrive at a i:l'ids like Dandcnong, where dairying is scheme by which both principles could be

Caitle [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Compensation Bill. 605

118t'd, uut particularly the principle of the that the measure does not provide for a l'Pgistratioll of cattle. You would have sufficient contribution from the Con­to get at the average number possessed by soli dated Revenue in respect of those a man during a tinancial year, so that two diseases which are communicable a man would not be penalized because he to human beings. . It seems to me had a herd of 100 cattle that he was going that the contribution from the Con­to sell on the day after the dose of the solidated Revenue should be raised to 50 financial year. It ~would bo necessary to per cent., because, when all is said and average the number of stock he possessed. done, this is a health measure, and, thore-

ltIr. CAIN.-In Tasmania, the tax is fore, is of extreme national importance. eollected only' in respect to 53 per cent. of To my mind, the community, as a whole, the cattle. should pay more of the taxation neces-

Dr. ARGYLE.-That simply indicates sary to provide compensation in respect of a fault in the method of collection. Does those diseases that are communicable to the :Minister mean that the cost of col- human beings. It has been said that lection would be almost prohibitive? under the Bill dairymen ~will not contri-

:Mr. CArN.-Where the Department is bute a sufficient amount towards the com­not in touch with cattle-owners it would pensatioll fund. Personally, I think that be rlifiicult to collect. In Tasmania, every they will just about do so. To my mind, policeman is a collector, but fees are col- the suggestion of the honorable member lected in respect of only 53 per cent. of for 'l'oorak that the Government should the cattle. go the whole hog, if I may put it that

Dr. ARGYLE.-If fees were collected in way, and make dairy supervision through­l'espect of 53 per cent. of the whole of the out the ,state compulsory, is a good one. cattle in Victoria, a pretty big fund would Under the Dairy Supervision Act dairy­be provided. I think honorable members men contribute 6d. a year for every cow in all parts of the House who have op- they milk. posed the Bill will agree that there is ]\-11'. OARLIsLE.-That would not go to something in the arguments of their the compensation fund. opponents. Mr. "\V"ALTEH.-No; but they would

:Mr. LIND.-W 0 want a· Oattle Com- be paying something towards the preven-pensation Bill. tiOll of disease, because, as has heen shown

Dr. ARGYLE.-We want a Cattle by the passage quoted by the honorable Compensation Bill, and it. will be a re- member for 'l'oorak from the, J oU/J'-nal of flection on the intelligence of the House the Department of A'gric'lbltU)'e, those herds if we cannot get· a Bill that will very that come under the Dairy Supervision Nearly satisfy all parties. Act are freer from communicable diseases

Mr. WALTER.-I rise to support the than those that do not. second reading of the Bill. To my mind, Mr. B]~ARDMoRE.-They would have to the measure is reasonably fair. There is pay two taxes instead of one. ]]0 doubt that there are certain aspects of 1.1:1'. ~T ALTEH.-They would be pay­it which ,are open to criticism, but I sup- ing a tax, and that tax would lessen the pose that any taxation that might be pro- compensation after a period of years at posed would appeal to some honorable any rate. It can be proved, I think, that members as being unfair in its incidence. pleuro-pneumonia particularly has been First of all, from a health point of view taken into the district I represent during the Bill is essential. I think it has been drought periods in the north, when a very proved that in countries that have Acts vast number of cattle have' come down similar to this measure in active opera- from the northern areas to graze in that tion diseases amongst cattle have de- district. In all probability they have left creased, and lam informed that, in New the germs of disease there, which have in­Zealand, pleuro-pneumonia is practically fected the cattle in Gippsland. Some of non-existent, owing to the operation of the people connected with the buying and an Act similar to this. There is no doubt, selling of cattle are, to a large extent, the too, that tuberculosis and actinomycosis means of disease being carried through­will be large.ly decreased if the Bill be- out the length and breadth of the State. comes law. It has been suggested by the .It is said that a dairyman will not con­honorable member fOl: Gippsland East. tribute anything in stamp duty, because

606 Cattle r ASSEMBLY.] Oompensation Bill.

he does not buy and sell cattle. If hon­orable me.mbers go to Oolac, Oamperdown, or Leongatha, they 'will find a consider­able number of dairy cattle sold on each sale day. The dairymen will pay their proportion of the stamp duty just as well as those who rear cattle and those who sell, fat cattle. I intend to support the measure. If some more equitable form of taxation can be thought out and put into the Bill, I will support it. Generally speaking, the measure suits me.

Mr. WEST.-The Bill that we have before us now is Qone about which there is a very grelat diversity Qof opinion, not only in this Housel, but outside, and amongst the caUle-Qowners themsehes. They are very much divided over it. In my own electQorate I havel rece,ived requests from a numbe'r of owners to' support the measurei, and again I have received re­quests from other owners to oppose it. In elach case they look at it from their own particular point Qof vie,w. Somel see the benefit the Bill confers and are anxious to ge,t it, while others see the obli­gation it imposes and 'are against it. There is general agreement that if cattle are destroyed by the State on a.ccount of infectioous disease, the owners should receive adequate compensation. If that is not done, very great hardship will be inflicted on a numbe,r of people, and sman ownerrs may be absolutely ruined. As a, matte'r of fairness and justice, in the circum­stances, owners whose ca.ttle are, destroyed on account of disease should receive com­pensation. But whern we conside'r how the compensation is to be provided, dif­ferences Qof opinion aTise. Some, honor­able members have suggested that the whoole, of the amount should bel taken from the Consolidated Revenue on the' grQound tha.t the measure has been introduced in the' inte're'sts of public health. While the public health would ce:rtainly benefit from the ope,ratio:p. Qof this mea­sure, it is also intrOoduced for the benefit of the dairyman and for ~he protection of the cattle industry, fOor its object is to prevent the spread of disease iiI stock. Therefore, cattle-owners, although they may not have stock destroyed, will benefit by the disease being kept down. Accordingly, I think it is right that they should contr] ... bute a substantial pOortion Oof the amount

required for compensation. Under the Bill a contribution of 20 per cent. is made by t~e G?vernmen.t. That is a very fair ?ontnbutIOn, but If the House decides to lllc~ea.se it, I certainly have nOi objection. It IS III regard to the raising of the bal­ance ?f. the money that a great difference of opInIOn comes in.

1\1r. LIN~.-Do you think £2,000 out of £45,000 IS a fair contribution from the general revenue. ~

Mr. \VEST.-The Gove,rnl11ent contri­bution would be very much more than that. Two methods have been sugaested for raising the balance of the money.o One of theJ?- is a direct fe;e per head, as pro­posed III the former Bill, and the other a stamp duty, as provided for by this mea­sure. By adopting a direct fee per head, the whole cOost can be equitably spread over all the cattle in the State. That seems an equitable arrangement. In the case Oof a stamp duty, the money will be colle~ted only in respect of those cattle sOold m the, yards. As .some cattle, are sold half a dozen times over a contribution in regard to them will bE/made that num­ber of times. It seems to me that a fee per head is a much fairer and more equit­able way. It certainly has a disadvan­tage in that it is difficult and expensive to cOollect. The experience, in Qother States is no'? very satisfactQory. Howe,ver, I do not thmk that we would have the same experi­ence here. Tasmania, as the Minister has said, cOollected only 53 per cent. If the whQole of Victoria was under the Dairy S~pervision Act, we should. have super­YIS?rS all over the State, and they would be m c10se tOouch with dairymen and cattle­Qowners, SQo I think there should be no. diffi­culty in getting a very much better result than that which the Minister cited. Collection Qof stamp duty would be a ve'r), e,asy matter. It would cost the Govern­ment nothing, but it would impOose a great obligation on auctioneers and agents. They would be made honorary tax collectoJ's for the. Go:rernment, and I know that they arc. Qo~Jectm~ velry much to the proposal. If It IS pOSSIble to. alter the incidence of the taxat~ou, and ma,ke it a fee per head, I w~uld hke to se'e that done. 1 am sup­pOortmg the seeOond reading because I know that the Bill is wanted very much in all dairying districts. From the remarks of soome honOora~le members, it would appear that these dIseases are confined to dairy cattle. In my Qown district the worst fI ttack of pleuro-pneumonia was dis­covered in a consignment of fat bullocks

Cattle [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Compensation Bill. (07

which were brought from one of the northern districts. Therefore, I think that there is very often disease in districts, ,although the fact is not known. If in Committee the method of payment can be altered from the proposed stamp duty to a, fee per head, I shall be pleased to sup­port it.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-Representing, as I do, an electorate which is not ma­terially concerned with cattle or cattle­dealing, I feel that it is perhaps neces­sary to explain some of the re,asons why I am in favour of the Bill. I do not sup­port the whole Bill as it stands, because ;r think that in some particulars it re­quires amendment. Honorable members who regard such a measure as vital should be given time to confer with the authori­ties with a, view to effecting some altera­tion in the provisions of the Bill that would make it acceptable to the House. Tn my opinion, this measure is long over­due. I have consulted my constituents, and they agree that such a measure is for the general welfare of the community. The figures supplied by the Minister show that the numbers of stock now condemned by Gover,nment officers annually are­tuberculosis 300, actinomycosis 350. pleuro-pneumonia 700, and pleuro­pneumonia contacts 1,000. The loss of so many cattle every year in Victoria is avoidable. I would view this measure in, a different light if I were not certain that in a few years such a loss could be eliminated. Countries which have taken the matter in hand have succeeded in absolutely elimin­ating pleuro-pneumonia. Here, we are losing 1,700 head a year from that disease. OUf veterinary officers are of the opinion that in three or four years, or five years at the outside, that disease could be wiped out. It may be necessary to spend a considerable sum the first year, and also the second year, because we shall not be able to discover all the sources of the disease, nor all the contacts, in twelve months. After the second year, however, there should be a considerable decrease in the amount required, and in four or five years it should be possible to practically wipe out the disease. That is a thing which is in the interests of the whole State. The slight inconvenience, to those who have cattle for their own home use will be willingly borne by them in the in­terests of their fC'llow-produC'ers 'who are more yital1y concerned. It is quite true,

as the honorable member for Toorak has said, that no part of the State is free from tuberculosis. That disease and actinomy­cosis are communicable to human beings. Therefore, we must use our best efforts to get rid of those diseases. While" 'in the first place, the cost may appear formid­able, I feel that in a few years' time the diseases can be eliminated. I am not concerned so much about the cost, because in four or five years it will practically disappear.

Mr. LIND.-Provided everybody pays his share.

M'r .. WETTENHALL.-Yes. In none of these matters should the burden be placed on one section. Some districts which are fre,e from disease to-day do not know when their turn is coming. K'erang, in the north, did not know what cattle dise,ase was. Gippsland has been given the blame for spreading a great deal of pleuro-pneumonia, for which it is not alto· gether to blame.

1\'lr. LIND.-That applies only to Dandc­nong.

lVIr. ,\VETTENHALL.-It applles to Dandenong in particular. Numbers of cattle are sent to the celebrated sale at Dandenong. It is a bigger sale that any that t.he honorable member can boast of in his electorate. I am 'assured by officers who know that in many cases outbreaks of disease in that area can be traced to cattle from other parts, and that if there were a staI?-p duty on sales they would .be able to absolutely prove it. A large amount of pleuro-pneumonia comes into Victoria from New South Wales. While the Government propose to pay 20 per cent. towards the compensation for tu berculosis and actinomycosis, they are not going to do anything in connexion with pleuro-pneumonia. I think that an extension should be made in that direc­tion. Everybody should bear his share in regard to all the diseases.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I am afraid that in Committee you cannot get an in­crease.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-We can try to get all that is possible. I hope that the measure will be placed on the statute­book, so that a definite move will have been made at last to eliminate diseases which are costing the whole community so much.

G08 Cattle

)Ir. GHOVES.-As Daudellong has been brought well into the picture to­night, and has been given a fine· advertise­ment as far as this Bill is concerned, I desire to say that I intend to support the second reading of the measure. In the Bill introduced by the previous Govern­ment provision ,vas made for two methods of taxation. One was a stamp duty and the other a direct charge per head. I am quite satisfied that even if those two systems were embodied in this Bill it would not have had the blessing of mem­hers who have spoken in opposition to it. The same opposition as was shown to the Bill introduced by the previous Govern­ment has been shown in regard to this measure.

Mr. WARDE.-The honorable member for Benambra was not half as hot in his opposition to this Bill.

Mr., GROVES.-That is so. I have the chart for 1921, showing the dis·tribu­tion of cattle tnroughout Victoria. Look­ing at the district of Gi ppsl,and East I find that ,there are very few cattle there'. The honorable member for that district saYb that Dandeno~g is a centre of disease. That is only the case because it is a distributing centre, especially for dairy cattle. When cattle in other parts of Victoria become diseased they are sent 1;0 Dandenong to be sold. Dandenong has to bear the odium of that.

Colonel BouRcHIER.-They thrive there. ~1:r. GROVES.-Yes, but the disease

comes from other parts of the State. ~{r. LIND.-l1-nd the principal sales are

of dairy cattle. Mr. GROVES.-The cattle sold there

are not all dairy cattle, although a fair number are. It is contended that dairy­men will not pay an equitable percentage of the proposed tax. If honorable mem­bers went to those centres where a large quantity of dairy cattle are sold at weekly markets, they would see that dairymen would contribute to a large ~x­tent. The man who is a dealer is a non­producer. He is a middleman in the strict sense o,f the word. He simply deals in cattle, and ought to meet his obligations so far as this system of taxa­tion is concerned. The honorable mem­ber for TO'orak has told us 0'£ the effect on the young life of this community of the supply of impure milk, ana

Compensation Bill.

we must do something to prevent that defective supply continuing. This Bill is long ov€'rdue. vVe have passed a lVIilk Supply Bill this session, and this measure should have been linked up with it. I am satisfied that our legislation to.wards se­curing a supply o·f pure milk for the people of this State Vlrill be ineffective unless this Bill is passed. Statements have been made about the losses of men on the high plains. I would like to re­mind honorable members that there are dairymen in various parts of Victoria who have lost all their cattle in consequence of infection with . pleura-pneumonia. The owners did not receive a penny by way of compensation, although the cattle were killed in the in lerests of the commllnity generally.

1\1:1'. LIND.-Men who will not COll­

tribute under this Bill will still get com­pensation for every beast that is destroyed 0.1' dies as the result of the diseases men-tioned in the Bill. '

1\1:r. GROVES.-Dairymell are pro­tected.

Mr. LI1'TD.-Only slighty. Mr. HOGAN .-Sixty tho.usand dairy

cows are So.ld every year in the lVIelbourne market.

Mr. GROVES.-And that does not take into consideration the number of dairy cows sold in other marke,ts. I do nQit hlame the honorable member for Gippsland East putting up a fight for the people he represents. He has to. satisfy dealers in stQick on the Omeo plains, and it is quite right for him to stand up fo'r their int.e-rests, but I would like him to recollect that there are other places be­sides Gippsland East which should ha.ve some consideration. Anyone would think from wha.t the honorablel member said that if there we,re no Gippsland East there would be no VictQiria,. I hope this Bill will pass its second reading. I do not think we will be able to' alter the provisions so far as taxation is cQincerned. Numbers o.f returned soldiers have been absolutely ruined because of the destruc­tion of their herds on account of them being infected with disease. They go.t no compensation, and I hope this House will give this Bill a speedy passage.

Mr. \VEAVER~-I am a representa­tive of farmers as well as stock-raisers, and prQibably many of my constituents, like those of the honorable member fQir Gippsland East, breed cattle for othe,r

Cattle [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Compensation Bill. 609

districts. ,Vhile this Bill may be con­sidered necessary, it has not been asked for by my people. I am quite sure, how­ever, that they are broadminded enough tOo realize the importance of this Bill so far as it affects the health of the COIJll­

munity. In the circumstances it would be only fair for the general revenue to provide at least 50 pel' cent. of the com­pensation that will be paid to the owners of diseased stock. It appears to' me, with all due respect to' the honorable member for Dandcnong, that dairymen will not contribute anything like the amount towards this fund that the stock­raisers and dealers will. I ha,ve nO' sympathy with the dealers. They turn aver their stock, and spread disease to a large extent. It is desirable, therefare, to' have some check upan them. They should, however, provide mO're O'f the mOoney that will be required under this Bill. I intend to' support the mO'tion for the second reading, but I hape the Bill will be considerably altered in Cammittee. Only three diseases are mentianed in the Bill, and the majarity of my peaple 10'se stack from other diseases. Cattle are subject to anthrax, 'which, as honorable members know, is mO'st deadly both to' catt.le and to human beings. I can quite understand that ~he Government may have overlooked this particular disease, and I hope it will be included in the Bill " when we are cansidering it in Committee.

1\111'. GRovEs.-There IS very little anthrax in Victoria.

:Mr. 'VEA'VER.--It is a yery dan­gerous disease, and just as dangerous to human beings as to stock. I think that dairymen will realize that they are in duty bound to pay a small tax tawards the fund that is to be constituted to' pro.vide compensation. Dairymen dO' not aHen sell their cattle. They anly dO' so when they became warn out.

IVIr. EVERARD.-They get a good price for them when they do.

1\:11'. \VEAVER.-They get just abaut as much as their skillS are worth. There is another serious disease which has not been included in this Bill. That is mam­mitis. I know of a returned soldier \\'ho lost the whO']e nf his herd because, O'f that disease. \Ve should include in this Bill more of the diseases that cattle are likely to be subjected to·. I a.m looking forward tOo considerable amendment when the Bill i~ in Committee.

Colonel BOUROHIER.-I do not desire to take up much time dis­('ussing this Bill. In the past I haye opposed a measure of thi.s sort on principle. I consider it a sectional Bill. It makes provision fO'r the payment af compensation to dairy­men at the expense of raisers of stock. I dD Do.t think the Bill shauld have been introduced at all, and although I am not :in favour of it I intend to vote for the second. reading, in the hope that the lVlinister will permit amendments to be' made which will materially alter its provisions. Practically all the stock­hO'lders in the northern portion of Victoria -at any rate, in the electorate I have the honour to represent--ar0 entirely opposed to the provisions of this Bill. I am pre­pared to admit that it may have some beneficial value in connexion with the health of the community generally, and fo·r that reason I will nO't appose the second reading.

J.\;Ir. CARLISLE.-I am in a position of doubt whether my people waut this Bill or not. Not many cattle a.re raised in the district I represent, but I expect that my cO'nstituents will have to pay more than they will get in return if this Bill is passed into law. I should have liked the tax to' have been fairer in its incidence than it is. It will hit rather severely those who deal in cattle, altha ugh I have, not much sympathy with such dealers. They are men whO' buy cattle in districts where there are too many, and take them to other places where there are not enough. If there were no dealers, people who wanted cattle would have to search them out for themselves. This Bill is intended to eliminate the diseases which are mentioned in it, and that should be a recommenda· tion if success is likely to' fallow i.ts ad­ministration. The elimination of disease is not only for the benefit of the producer, but fo.r the benefit o.f the consumer. In this case the consumer is nO't going to pay. It is the same old sto.ry: everything goes on to the back O'f the producer j he has to pay everything. He gets no advanta?:c from the policy of Protection which this country has adopted. V,Te have to pay about £100,OOO,ooq a year to keep certain industries in a favorable position, but everything the producer has to sell has to be disposed of a t bedrock prices. In my elec­torate, one council has requested me to'

610 CaUZe [ASSEMBLY.] CompensatiDIi Bill ..

support this Bill, and the adjoining council has asked me to oppose it. On the whole, I intend to support the second reading, and I hope something will be done in Committee to impro:ve the inci· dence of taxation.

Mr. HOGAN (lVIinister of Agriculture) -I should like to reply to some of th(' arguments that have been advanced by honorable members. On the question of whether there will be sufficient money as the result of a stamp duty of Id. in the £1, I may remind honorable members that the honorable member for 'Hampden did not think enough would be raised, while, on the other hand, the honorable member for Gippsland East said that more money than was necessary would be COll­

tributed. The position of the Gover~ment is that we are not imposing this stamp duty for any other purpose than to collect sufficient money to pay compensation. If more money is received than is required, our intention is to reduce the tax next year . We are not putting forward this Bill as a revenue proposition at all. We want to raise just enough to meet the claims for compensation, and nothing more. The Consolidated Revenue will pay 20 per cent. of the compensa­tion for the destruction of cattle suffering from tuberculosis and actinomy­cosis. It will also provide for all the ad­ministration expenses, and they will b~ considerable.

Sir ALEXANDEI~ PEAcocK.-The ad­ministration expenses will not come, out of the fund.

:M:r. HOGAN.-N 0; they will come out of the Consolidated Revenue, and we expect the amount from that source to total £4,568 per annum. It is worth while to have a look at the source of this revenue. The money will come from the tax of 6d.

. per head per annum on dairy cows im­posed under the Dairy Supervision Act. Dairymen have to pay that rate per head for every cow they milk during the year.

Mr. MACKRELL.-Only where the Act is operating.

Mr. HOGAN.-I know. It is gr·adu­ally being extended. Our intention is to further extend. the operation of the D.airy Supervision Act. Then everybody who has a dairy cow will pay 6d. per annum on it.

Mr. LIND.-But is not the revenue from that source mopped up by adminis­trative expenses ~

Mr. HOGAN.-That revenue pays the C?s~ of the operatio~ of the Dairy Super­VISIOn Act, the Inspectors, veterinary officers, and all the rest of it. These men, whose salaries are provided for out of the amount made up by the tax .of 6d. per head on dairy cows, will do the adminis­t~>ative work under this cattle compensa­tloOn scheme. Therefore, the £4,568 which the State contributes for this purpose, hy means of its administration, is really con­tributed by the owners of dairy cattle.

Mr. O.M:AN.-But the present fees are insufficient· to carryon with.

·Mr. HOGAN.-Nevertheless, that 6d. per head is being paid and people who have not got dairy cows are not paying. I am not taking sides in this matter as be­tween the respective owners of dairy cattle and store cattle. The Government are en­deavouring to do the fair and just thing. But one would think, from some of the arguments that have been submitted, that the only cattle sold are store cattle. I have a sta temeu t here showing the pro~ portion of dairy cattle sold at the present time in Mel bourne. This shows that the average number of cattle which pass through the corporation yards at N ew­market is 200,000, and of dairy cows at the Cattle Market, Sydney-road, 60,000 annually. Some honorable members argue

. that under the Government's proposal the owners of dairy cattle would pay nothinO'. That is disproved by the figures I ha~e quoted.

Mr. OMAN.-More than half the dairy cows in the State change hands every veal'.

:.M:r. HOGAN.-I anticipate that hon­orable members will appreciate the fact that the dairy farmers will pay to this in­surance. Our purpose was· to devise some equitable plan. We had to consider a stamp duty, or a direct tax of 3d. or 6d. a head ou all cattle, or, as an alternative that of asking the municipalities to col~ lect,. say, 6d. a head on cattle within their boundarie.s. This ·alternative was quite impracticable., and was, therefore, quickly dismissed.

Colonel BOURCHIER.-Will you wipe .out this measure when we have wiped out the disease ~

Mr. nOGAN.-If, as the result of the passage of this Bill into law, disease in cattle is eliminated, there ·will be no

Cattle [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Compensat-ion Bill. 611

necessity for its continuance, but I do not of 3 head, or less, is exempt from tax. Forty­think there is any prospect of the entire seven per cent. of cattle are, thercfore, not.

paid for. The population of Tasmania is elimination of the disease, though it may 216,751. If the 3,623 owners are deducted, be considerably reduced. there are 98,012 ·head of cattle held by the

J\fr. BEARDl\IORE.-Like the poor, it will balance of the population, 213,128, an average of 2-} per head, 'which is absurd, and clearly

be .always with us. proves that all cattle are not paid for. The :M:r. HOGAN.-I do not think so. A.s penalty, not exceeding £5, for not making the

far as tuberculosis and actinomycosis are· return is therefore not sufficient compul,sion. concerned they will be practically There is no reason to believe that any greater abolished in cattle after two or 'three percentage of owners in Victoria would for-

ward their returns; therefore, the revenue to years of strict administration under this he expected would ·be only £19,875, unless a Bill, should it become an Act. Pleu1'o- he.avy minimum penalty were provided for pneumonia will be more difficult to wipe' failure to make re~urn, or a staff of inspectors

t St 'll I h' d bt 'ts ravages . \\'er~ employed, WlllCh would be a heavy charge ou .1, a, e n? . O~l 1 L . agamst the fund. could be greatly chmllllshed. Conse-quently the amount of revenue required for cOIP.pensation will gradually decrease and the ld. on stamp duty now asked for may be cut down to -ld.

Mr. LIND.-YOU admit that pleuro­pneumonia will be the most difficult dis­ease to tackle, but that is the very disease not covered by the Bill.

Mr. HOGAN.-The honorable member will realize that there are difficulties in the way over which we have no control. The way to control pleuro-pneumonia is to destroy the carriers. Just as there are typhoid carriers, so there are pleuro­pneumonia carriers. If we could destroy the carriers we could almost entirely elimi­nate the danger of the infection of clean herds of cattle with the disease.

lvIr. WEST.-YOU could not wipe the dis­ease out here, because there would always be the liability of its being reintroduced from other States.

lvIr. HOGAN.-There is that aspect of the matter. Some honorable members are evidently of opinion that a direct tax of 6d. per head would be more equitable than the tax of ld. in the £1 stamp duty on sales. These are the facts with regard to the direct tax proposal and tb<;l objections to it-

Theoretically, this is the hest method, as every owner should contribute according to the number of cattle helc1. There being 1,500,000 head, this would mean a revenue of £37,500.

Practically the objections would :be-( 1) It would· ,be another return for the

stock-owner to make. (2) A large number would fail to make

returns. In Tasmania, where this systcm is. in opera­

.tion, ·and where every policeman is an inspec­tor of stock, and where there are only 214,412 head of cattle, tax is paid on only 53 per cent.

. of the cattle held by 3,623 owners. Any owner

We want about £40,000. If we decided instead of the stamp duty to impose a tax of 6 d·. per head on cattle, we should get £37,500 per annum. But if we only got payment {)n 53 per cent. of our cattle, as in Tasmania, the revenue would be only £19,875, which would be insufficient.

Mr. OMAN.-But you would have this advantage: you could collect from the 750,OqO dairy cows with the Dairy Super­vision Act in force.

Mr. CAIN.-That is happening in Tasmania. They are getting all the 1'e­ven uei from t.he dairy people, j the others are being missed.

Mr. HOGAN.-In addition there is the cost of the collecting of the direct tax.

. There would be the printing and distribu­tion of forms; postage on receipts and corre­spondence 'With defaulters. A staff of at least four clerks would ,be necessary to check re­turns, . and search through other records of the Department of Agrliculture for defaulters.

As against that the stamp tax is quite clear.

l\,fr. WEsT.-It is leaving the 'work to some one else.

. Mr. HOGAN.'-N 0; the advantage of the stamp tax is that every person who sells cattle will have to pay it. Arguments in its favour were submitted by the hon­ora ble member himself in his second­reading speech. The consensus of opinion is tha t of the two systems-the direct tax or the stamp tax-the stamp tax presents the fewest objections. Per­sonally, I am quite impartial in the mat­ter. The Government -want to advise as to the best method of collecting the money required.

Mr. WEsT.-Have you any reliable. estimate of stamp duties?

612 Cattle [ASSEMBLY. ] Compensation Bill.

1\11'. IIOGAN-.-Yes, I have a state­llleut here under the heading " Stamp Tax," which says-

The revenue under this system can only be rouO'111y estimated, and no record of sales can be ~btained. Probably 750,000 change hands annually. As 300,000 are slaughtered annu­ally, and the majority of these have passed throuO'h ,a sale yard, there remain 450,000 head to be. sold as stores or dairy cows. The average number of cattle which pass through the Corporation Yards at Newmarket is 200,000, and of dairy cows at the cattle mar­ket, Sydney-road, 60,000. The number dealt with in country yards and clearing sales by . private sales must exceed this. The estimate is, therefore, not high. If a low average value of £10 per head in normal years is given, then the revenue would be £37,500.

Mr. BEARDl\wRE.-If you sold an ani­mal privately you would be compelled to put a stamp on the receipt.

}tIl'. HOGAN.-Yes. Otherwise if the beast were destroyed the owner woula be unable to claim compensation.' A clause has been placed in the Bin making it mandatory for the seller to put a stamp on the receipt.

There is a possibility that stamps would not be used in private sales. An eHort to over­come this difficulty is made in the Bill by providing that the vendor must attach and cancel the stamps on the receipt or ,invoice, and unless the purchaser can produce his receipt or invoice duly stamped and cancelled he for­feits all right to compensation. It is, there­for.o, to his advantage to see that his receipt is in order, and there being two parties to the transaction the chance of evasion is lessened.

Mr. I-IOGAN.-I am. I trust that hon­orable members will unanimously pass the second reading of this Bill now. I think this is a Bill that all parties should ap-prove of, and if, in Committee, honorable members are able to submit proposals ~hat ,"viII be 111 ore effective than those in the Bill, we will give them careful considera­tion.

A~l HONORABLE l'IEMBER.-They can­not alter the system of collecting the taxes.

Sir l\LEXANDER PEACOCK.-You are tied down by the Governor's message.

Mr. HOGAN.-By the resolution passed in OOIDnlittee, which is different from the Governor's message. We are not hide­bound, and will give reasonable considera­tion to any proposals made by honorable members in Committee. Let us proceed to make this Bill the law of the country, and .enable a rampant difficulty to be over­come.

Mr. POLLARD.-This is a measure that I consider is long sinc~ overdue. I cannot understand why it was not placed on the statute-'book iong ago. It is a matter of vital interest ~~ my' consti­tuents. Shire councillors and several cattle breeders and dairymen have in­quired why the proposals of the late Go­vernment were not put into effect ,and have asked '\"hen the present Government would

We have endeavoured to gather together take action. I was pleased to tell those all . these objections and difficulties, and " people that the present Government in­the Bill is an attempt to provide a remedy: tended to introduce a Bill to provide for for these troublers. It is, as honorable' compensation. It is pleasant to know members are aware, a great loss to a poor that the Government, which 'has been man to have his herd of cows afflicted by accused of ay-ailing itself of every oppor­disease, for a Government inspector to; tunity to drive people off the land, is do­come along and slaughter those animals illg something .iQr._,the _p~oducer a~~d t~~ on the farm, and to pay him no compensa-, consumer.' This Bill will achieve three tion. That has occurred, and I think we' things. First 0'f an,. it will insure the all agree that it is something very hard dairy farmer and the cattle breeders on the individual owner; that it is very against loss through disease. Seco~~lY).it. __ reasonable that the whole of the com- will mean that there w'ilr"be less munity should say that this great loss is' 10513 of human IHe III the 11ietto­more than one man should carry, and that, politan area and alsO' in the it would be far better to spread it over', country from diseases which are com­the whole of the people. Consequently,. ~municable from dairy herds to human be­t.he necessity f0'r. such a .Bill is pressed. ings .. That in itself is a very important upon all members of Parhame~t and the' thing, and alone would justify the intro­people throughout the commulllty. 'duction of such a measure. Thirdly, the

Sir AI"EXANDER PEACOCK.-You are 111 provisions of the Bill will ma,ke it nece:=;-£ayonr of the Bill, are you not?· sary to put on more dairy snperyisors,

Cattle [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.J Compensation Bill. 613

and that will ell sure a more rigid super- cases they are not able to stand that loss, vision of the dairy farms. In turn that flud something should be done in the way will enable the present supervisors to carry of insurance against such contingencies. out their work more thoroughly. There The chief objectioll raised to the Bill is will be a greater incentive for people the fact that the dairy farmer is not pay­knowing that their cattle are diseased to ing his quota. I do not kllow that that report it, because they will have no fear is right. As we go from stock sale to that they ,1,7ill not be compensated for stock sale in the country, we find large their loss. J1L.one. cla.usa ilia. p.roposed l1;umbers of dairy cattle being sold. The that me --srate sha.!} p.u~.2~ C.e.W4 _of old stock is sold when it is of little use the compensation in the ~(),ye~lt of 10,s8 from fpr dairying purposes. Culling is going t}lherculosis' or actinoml'}~.Qsis.. . I would O~l throughout the year, and I think the like to see that improved. on. ):n the case d'airy farmer for the greater part of the of dairy cattle suffering from tuberculosis y~ar is chopping and changing his herd. the destruc60n is not only for the pro- ~te is paying his quota of the amount tection of other animals but also for the needed for the compensation. :E'urther-

-..J?~?t~ctiol~ __ 2.L ,the.~·aTi?iilil1C~~a n~ore, his loss is not so great. The matter of this sort, where cattle have to be arC1' age dairy farmer will have something

. a~tX9i~Yi!l2~~~~r.-0:,£~ecr~_~Ii?TI( ilf the vicinity of 50 head, and his risk Jlg~1thJ- I think t11e -- contrIbution or the' -is not so great as the stock-owner who has State 'fl:om the -COns6licrarecr::J~bfhli.le l~tllldreds. Therefore, I contend that he

-- ~ST1ould' be 'g' reate'r' than 'ih"'a,·_'t_·--_·,;-!".9yid~,,,d,. ,in sljlould pay a great deal of the compell--- .t:.-- -- ,s' tion. Much has been said about tra-

the Bill. ,~at a Tater stage, that the y.lling stock being 801(1 oyer and over _-..-9-overn,wenL}~riJ.l be.-ena~C!}(_i:fi.aKej)ro: _ "a ain. The tax will be paid several

vision .tor a grea~e_r contribution. -,<- _." ti mes, but it is not the same man who Sir ALEXAND~R PEAco<;m:.-The'Qove'rn.:" ,\ ill pay, as it will be spread over a nU1l1-

ment will have to bring'in another Bill. b r. Travelling stock are very much COll­

e ,rned in the carrying of disease. They ~1r. POLLAHD.-It has been saiel by 81 read disease, and it is just that class of

one honorable member that the dairy sock that should pay. I am fully in owners will get clown too lightly. I do not a ~cord with the Bill, and I believe that think that that is the case. The dairy t] Ie stock-owners will benefit greatly hy farmer, in the ordinary course of events, . sells annually the number of the herd It. Mr. MoLAOHLAN.-The previous that he possesses. The ,annual natural in- Government on this side of the House crease in the dairy herd is ,the total of tI ied to solve this prob18m, but did not that herd, and the dairy farmer sells his 81 cceed. The present Government is fol­older cows or younger stock as he pleases. I wing in their predecessors' footsteps In most cases he fattens up the old cows, IV ith a m01:e liberal measure, but not suffi­and they bring in fair prices. For that ci ently broad to warrant my giving it reason he will be paying a fair contl'ibu- pport. If we were dealing with the tion into this fund. He is already paying ads of the State-and they must be 6d. per head as registration for his dairy alt with very soon-I hope we would stock. That is a tax that the cattle-owners n t regard them as a local matter, but a;:-e not paying. It is a good thing if the rc ther as a State matter, and T take the dairy farmer is let down a little more s .me view in regard to compensation for lightly than the cattle-owner. I hope the eli seased cattle. The step is taken in the measure will be passed. i terests of the heaIth of the whole of the

S tate, and consequently any loss incurred ~1r. BOND.-I am the representative b, T those holding stock should be borne by

of a constituency where dairy farming is t ,e State. In the same way I would cx­carried on to some extent. I would feel p( ,ct the State to pay for the consh'uc~ion that I was neglecting my duty if I did not 0 our roads and for our educatlOn. offer some words on this Bill. It is high H 'eaIth, in my view, is more important time that such a Bill was brought forward. tl lan either of those subjects. If we are In the past, owing to the absence of CODl- aJ ming at getting better health through pensation, the stock-owners have been H e elimination of diseased animals, W'3-

called upon to bear all the loss. In most sl ould certainly be prepared to- pay for it.

I

614 Cattle [ASSEMBLY.] CO'mpelisatioil Bill.

A very small amount, something like £45,000, is involved. What is £45,000 per annum if ,ve can improve the health of. the whole community? That fine ad.., dress by the honorable member for Toorak this evening indicates very clearly the im ~ portance of pure milk and good meat. Both are worth paying allY price for. No one has paid closer attention to the pure milk question than the honorable membeli

for TOOl'ak. Notwithstanding the emin­ence he has attained in his own profession as a physician, or the prominent positioll he occupied as a Minister, long after he is; forgotten as a politician or a. Miniliter an4 a physician he will be remembered in th1 State for the splendid work he has don], in endeavouring to' get pure milk for th , whole of the people. Pure milk is no, a, matter for children only, but it is fo~' people of all ages. What applies to millt applies also to meat. But to deal witl the question in a sectional way, an( to attempt. to cure the disease by [ class tax, IS wrong. A dass tax o. this character is bound to irritate cattle owneil'S and dealers, and ca.use much dis con~ent .amongst them. The staml dutIes wlll pro~e vexatious to' many. In the district of Gippsland there ar J

numerous' markets, and a great deal 0

trade is done in cattle. As the honorabl J

member for TOOl'ak said, the same lot 0

cattle will, under this Bill, be liable t be taxed many times. If not all of them a section of them may be turned over 01 ~ ten sepa.rate occasiO'ns within the year, and no cO'nl3ideration has b~en given t that aspect. of the question. If we. cal secure a supply O'f first class mea and milk free from disease, it will b ' worth any price we pay for either, and we should be insistent in our e,ffort s to achieve that result. We might mak ~ more use of our Agricultllral Departmen t than we do at present in the eliminatiOl of disease. Officers of the Departmen t do not visit all parts of the State to fin out if any of the cattle are diseased. have no douht they do a great deal 0

good work, but I do not know whethe the staff is sufficiently la.rge for all th e important duties it has to perform. f more investigations by the Departmel t were made in that direction-and th e l\1:inister might give his attentio to that aspect of the question it would be to the, advant,age of 0

dairy herds. Denmark has been referre M'r. McLachlan.

I

to to-night. The people of Denmark made up their minds that they would succeed In the dairying industry. They had been subjected to many disabilities, and they had grievances, but they were determined to rise as a people, and they shaped their coume accO'rdingly, trust­ing in the main to' education. In dairying they had the same difficulties as we had here in Australia, so far as the comparative meagre production of milk was concerned. They made an effort to overcO'me that by importing the very best strains from Britain. They did not succeed in getting from Britain what they wanted, and they began to establish herd-testing institutions. It was then that their success began. The rO'bber cow was weeded out. Danish butter brings from lOs. to 15s. a cwt. more than we get fOil' our butter, and a little more than New Zealand gets, and it is now foremost in the world in the pro­duction of butter. Denmark made up her mind to attain that position, and she has done it largely through education. In this State. we have for years been only playing with the subject of agricultural education, and our inefficiency, and ignor­ance in that regard have t·ended to assist in the multiplication OIf diseases amongst stock. The time has arrived-I think I may say it is a, long time pasir-when the St.ate should begin in earnest to tackle this question of agricultural education. That, however, 'h3:s very little to do with this Bill. This Bill sets out to do certain things in a more liberal way than was proposed in the measure that ,"vas introduced by the pre­vious Government, but, in my opinion, it is not liberal enough. I think, as I said at the outset, that the expenses associated with this system should be borne by the State and it would be money well spent if we' could accomplish the object that we, as a Parliament, ought to have in view­that is, a pure supply of milk for the people and the elimination of disease among cattle, which would ensure to the c.ommunit.y at an times a sound and healthy supply of meat.

The House divided on the motion-

Ayes 43 Noes 6

JYlajority for the second reuding 37

CaUZe [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Compensation Bill. 615

Mr. Allan Dr. Argyle Mr. Bailey Major BaIrd . Mr. A. A. Billson

~ " Bond Colonel Bourchier 1\1r. BrownbilL " Cain " Carlisle " Clough " Cook " Deany ., Eggleston

Everard " Farthing " Frost " Groves " Hjorth " Hogan " Hughes " Jackson " Keane

:\1r. Angus " Beardmore " Gordon " McLachlan.

AYES.

Mr. Lawson " McAdam " McDonald (D(lylcs­

f01"d) ,,~lcDona.ld (Pol-

warth) " Oman

Sir Alexander Peacock ~1r. Pollard " Prendergast " Slater " Snowball " Solly " Tunneclifi'e " ,,7 allace

Walter " "Yarde " "leaver " 'Vest

Wettenhall. Tellers:

}fl". Jewell " \Yebber.

NOES.

I Telle1·s:

ilfr. Greenwood " Lind.

The Bill was read a second time, and committed.

CIa use 1 was agreed to. Clause 2-(Interpretation). Mr. LIND.-In view of the fact that

several honorable members have expressed a desire that certain amendments should be made in the Bill, I would ask the Minister in charge of it to report pro~ gress, so that we may have an opportunity of considering and preparing our amend­ments. The Minister said that he would be prepared to meet honorable members as far as possible. I think the request I am making is a reasonable one.

:1\1:r. HOGAN.-There is no desire to make amendments in this clause.

:1\1(1'. ANGUS.-I came into the cham­ber from the meeting of the Elections and Qualifications Committee, and I was not aware that the Minister in charge of the Bill had made the promise referred to'. For that reason I voted against the Bill, not because I am opposed to it, but because of the way in which it is proposed to collect the stamp duties. I would urge the Min­ister to give us an opportunity of framing such amendments as we think are neces­sary to make the Bill acceptable to us.

MI'. CAIN (Honorary Minister).-I have no objection to progress being re­ported if honorable members desire to circulate amendments. As I said in my

se~ond-reading speech, the whole House, WIth the exception of 011e or two members desires this measure to be given effect to~

Mr. LIND.-Several honorable members who voted for the second reading indi­cated that they would not support the Enl right through.

Mr. CAl-N.-We have no objection to progress being reported, provided honor­able members can get their amendments circulated so that we can go on with the Bill later this week. We shan have an­other measure before, the House to­morrow, but we may want to go on· with this Bill Gn Thursday. We can defer the consideration O'f the Bill until to­morrow, and it may then come up again this week.

Mr. WEST.-Certain honorable mem­bers wish to move amendments in clause 2, which is the definition clause. They wish to add to the diseases named certaiu other diseases.

Progress was reported.

MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN TRA!1:WAYS

BILL. The debate (adjourned from Septem­

ber 23) on the motion of Mr. Webber (Honorary Minister) for the second read­ing of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I have not much to offer in opposition to the Bill. As a mattf3l' of fact, I think its main provisions are fair. Under the old arrangement, the municipalities had the right to dictate to a considerable extent' to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board as to the construction of roads, and that gave the municipalities an O'ppo'l'tunity of being rather unfair in some cases. I think the provisions of the Bill remove some of the C)pportunities for unfairness, and we must always take into account the fact: that the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board is a public authority. It is using public funds, and, on the whole, I think it ought to be treated with a certain amount of leniency so far as the making of roads is concerned.

Mr. J ACKSON.-Is not a council a public body ~

Mr. EGGLESTON.-Yes, and this Bill, so far as I can see, seeks to hold the balance evenly between one public body

616 .Llielbounle mId Metropolitan [ASSEMBLY.] T'ra1nways Bill.

and allother. There are only two queG­ti onable provisions in the Bill. One is the repeal of sub-cla,use (2) of clause 3 of the 11th scheel ule to the principal Act. Under that sub-clcmse, if a muni­cipality decides to improve itG part of the road, it can compel the Board to make its section of the road up to the same standard. That provision seems to me to be not unfair, and the lHinister did not seek to' jUGtify its repeal. There is no provision to give the Governor In Council, any power in the matter. I would sugge3t to the Minister that he consider whether he cannot give the Go-­vernor in Council the same power in this respect as is given in regard to repairs by sub-clause (2) of clause 3, which 1UyS-

., Pro\·jrl('ll furtlwr that the Governor in Couucil, Oil thc request of the municipality concernerl, may IJ)' Order, direct the Board to carry out sueh repair with such materials and in suell lllallner as is speeiJ1ed in the Order."

If there is very heavy traffic OIl a road, and the 111unici pal council considers that a COllcrC(C or ·wood-blocked road is neces­sary, it can, under sub-clause (2) of clausr. 3 of the 11th schedule, compel the Board to complete its section of the road. If that is knocked out, a council might decide to concrete or wood block the outer sections of a, road, but it 'would have 110 powrl' to compel the 130[11'(1 to do similar work ·with rC'g[1l'd to the centre of the road. The solution I suggest is that the GOYC'l'llOr in COlmcD should have the power, if the Board's section of the road is not satisfactory, to order it to com­plete the road. That might be dOlle by an amendment of the provisQ' I have read.

1\11'. \VARDE.-That, might mean putting t.he Board to enormous expense in con­structing a concrete road, when probably a light.er type of road would be sufficient fer its work. That would not be fair.

I\fr. EGGLESTON.-Under the prin­cipal Act a municipal council has the right to compel the Board to do that.

Mr. \VARDE.-That is not right. !ir. EGGLESTON.-I am agreeable

to tho provision in the Bill, provided that tho Governor in Council has the right, in a suitable case, to direct the Board to comp1ete its portion of the road in a proper way. The only other provision I have to complain about is sub-clause (2)

of clauGe, 4, which is an amendment of the 12th schedule to the principal Act. It is provided in paragraph (a) of sub-clause. (1) of clause 2 of the 12th scheduh~

that when the Board has opened or broken up any portion of any road, it 6hall, ·within four weeks at the most, complete its ·work and make good the road. By sub-clause (2) of clause 4 of this Bill, the limit of time is eliminated altogether. I object to that very strongly, because I think there ought to be some time limit.. Four weeks may be too short, but eight weeks or twelve weeks should be the utmost time allowed. L nless a time limit is provided, the Board need never make the road good. I do 110t think that is the intention of the, Dill, and it \vould not be a fair thing to the users of the road. It may be fitting ill certaiu cases that tram tracks should Hot be made to the same extent as other portions of a road, but I certainly think there shouJd be some control, and 80me time hmit. I had intended to' see if I could get an instruc­tion for an amendment ,vith regard to another portion of the Act-that which deals with notice of action. The notice of action section Frovides that notice of artion has to be given, and action mU3t be brought within six months of any oc­currence complained of. That is a limit on the power of the subject to bring an action against the Board for any wrong done to him.

Mr. WARDE.-Is there not some quali£'­('ation that notice of action need not be given \vithin that time if there is reason­able eXCU!3e for delay?

1\fr. EGGLESTON.-This section is different from any other notice of action section I have ever seen. It is provided that if notice of action is not given or action is not brought within six months, there is no excuse at all. The Judge must O'lVC a verdict for the Board. It may be that informal notice was given by the soli­citor for ,the plaintiff, but the Judge has no discretion. He cannot order the in­formal notice to be amended, and he can­not give costs against the Board. The section provides that the -verdict must be 0'1ven for the Board, and that costs must be given against the plaintiff.. I think that is an' unnecessary hardshIp. How­(,"('1', I llllc1crstand that an amendment on

Jlelboume and ivletl'olJolitan [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Tramlv(t!)s Bill. 6l'7

the subject would he foreign to the pur­poses of the Bill, and, therefore, I cannot move one. I take this opportunity of bringing tho mattm' under tho notice of the Governmellt, so that if they are deal­ing ,,·ith the subject again they can miti­gn te the Rcvority of the notice of action section. I understand that some honor­able memhcrs 011 this (the Opposition) siele of the House aro much more against some of the provisions of the Bill than I Hm, and they will halTe an opportunity of giving theie opinions on the subject.

l.Ir. GREEN""\YOOD.-I would suggest that' the debate he adjourned. There are a good many matters in cOlluexioll with the trumlvays that might be discussed, and I am quite sure that the two provisions to \\'hich the honorable memb~r for St. Kilda has drawn attention should have some fur­thcr consideration giycn to thefn.

:.\11'. ""\V EBBl~n.-..lny amendmeut yon have to propose must he moved ill Oom­mittee.

)11'. Gln~E:i\·W"OOD.-I "{QuId still urge the adjournment of the debate.

)Ir. WJmmm.-It is too early to adjourn )'L't. 1,et us get the Bill into Oommittee, a~Jd we will report progress Oll the first danse. That will give ;ron a chanco to ('irt:ulate allY amendment.

=\11'. GHEEN"rOOD.-That is so. The honorable member for St. Kilda has drawn attclltioll to clause 3. The present Act gin'~ municipal councils power to insist Oll the construetioll of a tram track in any ,ray they like. I quito agroe that a eouncil should Hot have power to insist that a tram track should be constructed in a bettc1' way than th3 council's own portion of the road is made. If that ,vere dOlle, the wholo of the traffic would go oyer the tram track. On the other hanel, if a municipality COll­

structs the road on each side well, there :;;hould be definite po"\ver to forco the Doard to do the same with the tramway 1 rack. If a municipality spends a large amoutlt of money in making a concrete road, as the City Council has done at North Carlton, surely the POl"­

tion under the control of the Board should be in keeping with it. Clause 4 certainly needs amending. It would be an absurdity to leave the Board t.hr right to make alterations to their

track without any time limit at all. Thc Board might leave its track ill open ballast, and there ",voultl be no power to make it complete the work, so that the road could be blocked in­definitely. Some reasonable time should be provided to enable tho work to 10 finished. Involved in this issue is the question of the future of tho tramways. ro-day, I took part in a deputation which put up a case so far as motor buses aro concerned. That was in connexion with a Bill that will come before this 110use later on. There is no questioll that the tramways are going to be up against it. In the past, this House, in its unwisdom, put a permanent blister on the trannvay system by providing that £100,000 of the annual profits Ghould be devoted tOo the In"fectious Diseases Hospital, tho Fire Brigade, and the 1,i censing Fund. Tho y,"holo basis of that arrangement is wrong. It is sectional ta:xation, and that is some­thino' which the Government have set. th61r faco

0

again3t. It means that tho citizen of lIfelbourne ·who happens to be u tram­,yay passenger is asked to pay extra taxa­tion which the users of other forms of transport, such as railways and motor rars, do not pay. Why that should have been done I do not know, and cannot llndei·stanc1.

:JIr. \V.\'"RDE.-Thousands of the pas­sengers are from tho couEtry.

:JIr. GHEENWOOD.-Therc is no 1'ca­COil why they should have to join in pay­ing extra taxation. It is self-evident that the result of that taxation is that they are }lOt getting the facilities in trallsport that they should get, or that they arc paying more for the use of the tramways than they should be called upon to pay. Now, whell it comes to a question of competition ,,·ith motor buses particularly, the tram­ways arc up against a l)l'oblclll. Before long the effect will be, juclging from the way matters ar8 tending, that tho Tram­"'ay Board will be compelled to insist on special taxation through tho municipali­ties. If, as the honorable membor for Flemington says, a great many country people patronize the tramways, it will mean that, thoro again) thoro will be an unfair result, because the tax will bo placed on metropolitan municipalities only. I think that the whole position of the t l'umways should be discussed fully

618 Melbourne and jtletropolitan [ASSEMBLY.] Tm'mways Bill.

in this House. This Bill does not give us an opportunity. One reason why I sug­gested an adjournment of the debate was that I hoped that it might be possible for the Government to go into the question of our metropolitan tramways, and bring in a Bill wider in scope than this. Oertainly the two amendments which this measure contains should be put on a different foot­ing. I think that the Bill has been hastily prepared, and that the mind of the Minister has been on other big matters. The Government must realize, however, that this is a measure of great importance, for it will affect the future profits of the tramways. Therefore, it should not be hurried through the Oom­mittee stage.

Mr. ::McL.fiCHLAN.-The question ~yf the future of the metTopolitan tramwaFs has been raised by the honorable member for Boroondara, and I think that a favor­able opportunity presents itself now of doing what this House almost did when the tramways were handed over to the municipalities. Before that decision was co~e to there was a strong feeling in the mmds of many members of this House that the street railways and our ordinary railways should be under one control an~l management, as they are in Sydney. So strong was the feeling in this House "when the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tram­ways Bill was before us, that the la,te Hon. Donald McLeod, who was the member for Daylesford, submitted a clause which this House accepted. That provided that the future ownership of the "tramways or street railways was to be considered seven years fro.m the date when the Bill was before the House. The hon01rable member fo'r Castlemaine was in charge of the mea~ sure at that time, and the Government sustained a subr3tantial defeat, but did not resign. Subsequently that' defeat was re­peated. One side was fighting for the tramways to be handed Olver to. the State, as they should be if we want decent freights and fares as far as the country is con­cerned. So serious did the position be­come that a conference between represen­tatives of the two Houses was held. What happened at that conference I can­not say. How they got the· honorable member for Daylesford to withdraw his clause I do not know, because that was not one of his characteristics. However, they did get him to withdraw it, and the

tramways are in possession of the muni­cipalities to-day, as we know. That was a fatal blunder, and incalculable harm has been done to this State. In the develop­ment of Our country we need railway communication, and railway communica­tion is not as general as it should be con­sidering the compactness of the State and the progress it has made. There is very 'little prospect of geUing railway communication in some of the districts. If, however, the street railways in the metropolitan area had not been cut out they would have given, very substantial assistance as far as the revenue is con­cerned. As it is, it is a very difficult matter for our ordinary railways to pay their way.

~r.r. \\T ARDE.-No profits are being :::hown on the tramways.

Mr. McLACHLAN.-As far as the metropolitan people are concerned they are not overcharged for riding on the Gireet railways. Tho.se lines could and did show a profit in the past. There is a concentrated population here of nearly 800,000 people, and there is a prooability of that population increasing.

Mr. W ARDE.-And every new line shows a substantial loss.

Mr. McLACHLAN.-It should not do so if the people paid a fair thing. OU}' railways depend on two sources for their revenue. One of them is the goods placed in the trucks. Those goods come from the country. The country does its share in that particular direction. It naturally looks to the passenger traffic to largely supplement the income. In­stead of getting the assistance of the metropolitan area, however, the revenue from the passenger traffic on the street railways is cut out. With reference to the amounts that have to' be paid O'ut O'f the profits the houorable mem­ber for Boroondara referred to, I consider that the. tramways got off very lightly in view of the att,itude O'f the HO'use at that particular time. I should like to' sec the Government, in the interests of this State:.' and its develo'pment, try to. devise !'lome mean'S of taking O'ver the whole of our street railwa,ys.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-YOU would not stand for directly taxing the citizens of l\1elbourne in order to pay that mDney ~

Adjournment. [30 SEPTEMBER, 1924.] Wheat l.llarketing Bill. 619

~Ir. ~lcLACHLAN.-As far as rail­way travelling is concerned the metro­politan people get off very lightly. Only last Tuesday I drew attention to the treatment meted out to long-distance travellers. The train from the other end of Gippsland was hung up through some­thing going wrong with the staff. It was expected that it would have got a clear run in from. Dandenong, but instead of that it was held up for another half-hour. If that sort of thing happened to metro­politan people there would be a howl im­mediately. In connexion with the trans· port service of Victoria, I think it would be in the best interests of this State to have our street railways and our ordi­nary railways under one control and management, the same as they are in Sydney, and I should like to see the Go­vernment make an effort in that direction.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill "vas read a second time, and committed.

.olause 1 was agreed to.

Progress was reported.

.ADJOURN~{ENT.

ORDER OF BUSINESS.

Mr. PRENDERGJ.\.ST (Premier).-I lnove-

That the House do now adjourn.

I desire to inform the Leader of the Op­position that the Wheat Marketing Bill will be gone 011 with to-lllorrow t'o a COlL­

elusion. Dr. ARGYLE.-" Hope springs eternai

in the human breast."

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-With regard to the other business, I may say--

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The Wheat Marketing Bill will be enough for to· morrow.

Mr. PRENDERG.AST.~The second measure will be the Industrial and Provi­dent Societies Bill. Then we will gOo on with the Game Bill, the W Oorkers' Com­pensation Bill, and the Melbourne and Me,trOopolitan Tramways Bill. I think that will be enough for to-morrow.

The motion was agreed to.

The House adjourned at 10.3 p.lll.

LEGISLATI\:E A.SSEMBLY.

TVednesday, October 1, 19i2.~.

. The SPEAKER (the Hon. John Bowser) took the chair at 4.3 p.m.

STATE ACCIDENT INSURANCE OFFICE. .

'VORKERS' COMPENSATION PREMIUMS.

1\1r. WETTENHALL asked the Chief Eecretary-

If the State Accident Insurance Office has increased Ole rates of premiums payable under the \Y orkers' Compensation Acts by depart­ments which are compelled to insure their employees with that office; if so, when, and by how much?

Mr. TUNNEGLIF'FE (Chief Secre­tary).-The reply to the honorable mem­ber's question is-

Yes. rfhe Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board premium was increased from 1st July, 1924, by 33k per cent. A comparison of the rates shows that the premiums charged bv the Victorian State Office are considerably less than those payable in the other States. For instance, the premiums for the tramways constructional staff are-N ew Zealand, 45s.; Queensland, 45s.; New South 'Wales, 48s.; Tasmania, 20s. to 50s.; Victoria, 20s. An even more favorable comparison can be made in the other rates. The premiums received and the claims paid by the State Accident Insurance Office to the Tramways Boara during the years 1918-24 inclusive are, up to the present­Premiums, £12,450; claims £10,570, plus com-

. mission £640, making a total of £11,210, leav­ing only £1,240 to cover about twenty out­standing claims, in addition to administrative expenses.

BILL READ A F'IRST TIME.

The following Bill \Vas brought in by lVlr. TUNNEGLIF'F'E (Chief Secretary), and read a first time:-

Children's Maintenance Bill.

'¥HEAT 1\1ARKE,T'IN G BILL. The debate (adjourned from September

24) on che motion of Mr. Hogan (Minister of Agriculture) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

1\11'. OMAN.-As honorable mem1:>ers are aware, for over six years I handled wheat under a compulsory Pool. I was deeply interested in the question in 1921, when the feeling was that the Victorian POlOl should be continued, and that we should. attempt to make it a compulsory

620 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.) }.larketillg Bill.

one. In reply to a deputation, I then expressed the view that it was not a function of the Government to control the commerce of the country. In reply to a deputation, as reported by the A1'gUS on 29th June, 1921, I said-

lIe did uot see why they should force even a. . minority to pool their grain against their will .. If the princIple were conceded in one case, it couId not be refused ill others, and the Minis­try would have to take charge of mills, bt1kcries, &c. Peobably there would not be lIluch more than 2,000,000 tons of wheat for expoi·t, and it seemed absurd to say that that could not be handled through ordinary trade channels. The point had been raised that the farmers should have been consulted, but the Ministry must take tile responsibility of lead­ing. It could not follow.

I have not changed my view since then. I still hold that the people are entitled to contra.! the produo8J they grow. I cannot see that the Government have the right of interference-the right to control a­man's produce-any more than they have to control wage-earning in the community.

Mr. DOWNWARD.-Was the deputation you referred to comprised of wheat­growers or !of speculators and buyers ~

Mr. 01\1AN .-The statement I have quto1ted was made in reply to a meeting of buyers. As a matter of fact I then said that I was opposed to pooling. I know that because of the administra.tion in this State being fairly satisfactory the pool­ing system was favoured, and when a poll was taken it showed that a very heavy majority approved of the com­pulsory pooling system. I challenge the Government to' test the feelings of the producers on the question to-day. 1 make bold to say that 80 per cent of the farmers of the State are not in favour of the compulsory pooling of wheat. Only three years ago .we had Mr. Jowett strO'ngly supporting a wool Pno!. We know that the commercial houses have been able to handle the business, and that the wool trade to-day is on a sound basis. This nation has been built up on commerce, and I am opposed. to any undue· inter­ference ill a time of peace with that policy. State pooling of wheat by com­pulsion means that every man will have to put his wheat into the Pool. I make no complaint in regard to the Board of COll­

t,roI. We have been singularly fortunate in Victoria in the n1.anagemeut of our whea.t business, both compulsorily and voluntarily. A voluntary Pool has much to commend it. It gives an opportunity to the man who is unable to disp~se of

his grain at a profit to withhold t~0 grain from the speculator and to put It into the Pool. The millers in this State purchased upwards of 1"4,000,000 bushels. of wheat through the POIOI last ye1ar. It i& said that the Pool charges more than pari ty for the w hea tit sells to the miller. I t seIls to the miller at a price based all parity plus the cost of holding the .wheat and the interest charge, and it is a fair proposition. We' are tal-day O'pening a year when there are free buyers ill the market, and they are offering anything up to 6s. 3d. or 6s. 6d. per bushel f.o.b. for wheat for overseas requirements. r speak with a good deal of experience, and I say that every time the market risrs strongly against the consumer there is an agitation for the fixation of lower prices. I am convinced that if we wait and hold 7,000,000 bushels of this season's grain until the new crop is on the market in the .mid-year, we shall not be likely to see the prices I have indicated paid for the wheat that is held, unless it is purchased by the Government and the Government bear the full responsibility of any 10s3. Surely, if I produce gra.in, I am entitled to sell it in the open market. I am not going back to the days of the Pharaohs. It is the duty of the Government if they want mY' grain to buy it and hold it. The old practice was for the millers to buy the grain from the harvester and to store it and to' charge for the product of the wheat a sum tha.t would cover the cost 1-.0 them plus the manufa.cturing co,st. T t

. is said that. whelat is a commodity that lends itself eminently to pooling. I have seen wheat pooling in every stage, and T know that, notwithstanding the great 100sses we sustained, it was a marvellous re­cord for a period when there were neither ships nor markets available to be able to hold the grain and to dispose of it and show, in the aggregate, a .surplus of 9,415 bushels. One' of the reasons why many farmers are to-day in .fa.vour. of compulsion is the capable admllllstrahon and the satisfactory results achieved dur­ing that period of stress and strain.

:1\1r. POLLARD.-Private enterpri~G was incapable of dealing with the matter.

M.'i. 01\1~N.-Private enterprise has always been able to handle the comll1er~e of the country under normal con­ditions. I know that honorable mem­bers on the Ministerial side of the House would wipe out the commercial men in the community and substitute State trading. I am not in favour of

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] 1J1 arketing Bill. 621

that policy. State pooling of i)l'~duce will lead us much farther than my fnends in the Opposition corner anticipate. It might give the farmer Id. ,Per bushel immediate advance on the pnce that he could obtain in the open market, but the introduction of such methods of trading deprives the people of their freedo:r;u ~nd destroys individual effort and initIative. One of the arguments put forward by the Minister of Agriculture was that we should "bear oue another's burdens." The hOonorable gentleman said that cer­tain men could not market their grain prOofitably, and could not hold it with ad­vantage to themselves. That is utter nonsense. The great bulk of the farmers can market their grain profitably, and they know the business quite as well as the Oofficers of any Govel'nment Depart­ment. A Government Department should not contrOoI the commerce of the country. Are we going in fOol' State insurance and State banking by compulsion ~ These are schemes I know the Government favOour. If we to-day accept this instalment (Jf

compulsion we shall nOot be able to object if to-morrow compulsion is introduced in some other form. vVe have nOo right to withdraw from the people their freedom. Compulsory State' trading has been tr~ed in Queensland, under Labour rule, wIth little success and great disaster to the communit.y. Surely we should steer clear of these pitfalls when they lie soo openly befOore us.

Col one.} BOURCHIEH.-YOU favour the open market 1

Mr. OMAN.-Yes:. The Empire has been built up on the open market. If we destroy freedom in commerce what are we going to substitute fOol' it 1

lVIr. HjUGHES.-You tried to destroy the freedom of the country during the war.

1\h. OMAN.-COonscription of men is wrOong according to honorable members opposite, but I suppose that conscription of other peDDle's property and their money is not wrong. It ill becomes the Govern­ment to intJ.'oduce a principle which they

: so strongly opposed during the, war. Dur­ing the war period it was the duty of the Government to come to the rescue of the people and to market their pro­ducts, or to hold them' and finance them pending 3rt opportunity of market­ing them. Although many mem­bell'S, through that very e.fio.rt, lost their seats in this House and their reputa­tion, I believe the farmers of this country

[33J

apprecia.te- thelir action in meeting their re­quirements and in ena.bling thell11 not only to finance their own business proposi­tions, but the loans necessary for the prosecution of the war. This Bill is Socialism pure and unadulterated. If it becomes the choice of the Farmers' Union party. i-o-day, what will happen t.o'-1110'rrow ~

Oolonel BOURCHIER.-We have Social­ism down at Morwell, and the works there \\'ere started by your Government.

Mr. OMA_N.-Thut is no argumentl at all. I thank the honorable member for his interjection, and I shall reply to it. If you want State control, grow the wheat under State control, pool it under St'ate control, and sell it under State control; but leave the private operators free, and I 'guarantee that they will beat the State enterprise. It is a different thing when the State finds the money to start an in­dust-ry in order to meet a public require­ment. The honorable member has sup­plied no argument for the Government seizing the produce of the wheat-growers, which they themselves are capable of marketing. The Minister admits that there are some wheat-growers who can hold their wheat, and dispose of it during the year with advantage to themselves.

Mr. VVETTENHAI.L.-And disadvantage to others.

lir. OMAN.-The whole of the tradi­tions, of the British race have been built on its commerce. If we are going to build up a race here that will be nursed at every turn, we shall not get cheap commodities for the consumers, nor shall we get the best results for the people of the State as a whole: Do the Country party stand for Socialism pure and un­adulterated?

Colonel BOlJRCHIER.-What do you mean by "unadulterated"?

"Nfl'. O:MAN.-I should have said un­diluted. We know the Leader of the Country party declares that he is not a Socialist.

Oolonel BOlIRCHIER.-He is on this Qc·c·nsion.

!{!'. OMAN.-Are the Oountry party supporting the Bill because they believe that they will reoe1ive some petty advan­tage for the moment from. it ~

:1fr. CARLISU-:.-Not for the moment, but all along.

622 Wheat r ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill. J

Mr. OMAN.-I have pointed out that it is quite possible that the wheat that is stored, if it is held under the principles that have been pursued during the last few years, may be sOlId in the closing months of this year at 4s. a bushel. It is just as well that the farmers should know that.

Mr. CARLISLE.-What about last year? Mr. OMAN.-I am speaking of this

year, but in reply to the honorable mem­ber I may say that 40 per cent. of the wheat was sold in the open market. We have heard no complaints.

Mr. CARLIsLE.-There have been a lot· \..)f cOID.:iJ!liints.

Mr. OM.AN.-With respect to that 40 per cent. ~

J\f.r. CARLIsLE.-Yes. Mr. OMAN.-I challenge honorable

membrrs to teEit the matter by submitting the question of a compulsory Pool to a referendum of the wheat-growers.

Mr. HOGAN.-It was submitted to a referendum of the wheat-growers in 1921.

Mr. OMAN.-Yes, after they had been used to a pooling system under which they received very special consideration.

Mr. HOGAN.-Under adverse circum­stances.

Mr. OJ\iAN.-A Labour Government was in power in New South Wales, and when we guaranteed 5s. a bushel to the growers, it guaranteed 7s. 6d. That cost the New South Wales taxpayers £1,000,000.

Mr. HOGAN.-The referendum was not taken ill New South Wales, but in Vio­toria.

Mr. OMAN.-The reason the Pool was popular here was that we were able t'o show better prices up to ls. per bushel than the sister State of New South Wales. That State had to pay £1,750,000 of the taxpayers' money in order to make up shortages.

Mr. FROST.-YOU chargecl the local people 9s. per bushel.

J\fr. OMAl~.-We charged the local people less than the wheat was sold at overseas during the whole six years of the war.

J\fr. WETTENHALT~.-Are you proud of that~

Mr. O~IAN.-When the money of the people is behind a venture they are en­titled to fair consideration, and they got

fail' consideration; I was .never prepared to hand over to the people for less than its value the wheat of the farmers that had come under my charge because of the special conditions that existed.

Mr. OARLISLE.-But you just said yo~ did.

Mr. OMAN.-We did not obtain more than wQlrld's parity from local purchasers. I shall quote the actual prices received for the six years of the war.

Mr. OARLIsLE.-The honorable member for Warrnambool says you sold wheat locally for 5d. per bushel less than its value abroad ..

Mr. DEANY.-YOU know very well what I said, and you have just supported it by interjection.

Mr. OJ\fAN.-In the six years, we sold for local consumption 60,000,000 bushels, and for eXpOl;t 159,000,000 bushels. The average price paid for the wheat for local consumption was 58. 7.56d. per bushel, and the average price paid for the over­seas wheat was 5s. 11.75d. pel' bushel. I could amplify those figures, but time will not permit me to do so. The posi­tion is that the Government deny the right of the people to hold property. Is that to be suppo'rted by the members 011

this (the Opposit.ion) side of the Hous~,· who have denounced Socialism in and out of season? Where w~11 this proposal lead us, and where will it end? Will any temporary gain, if there be temporary gain, compensate for the position that we shall be in ~

Mr .. WEAvER.-Did not a Nationalist Government fix the price of wheat in 1914 ~

Mr. OMAN.-I will take the full re­sponsibility, and offer no apology to any Olne for what was done during my term of administration. I venture to say that there is hardly a "pooler" in my constituency. To-day I have had numerous telegrams asking me to oppose the Bill, and on Saturday I was rung up on the telephone. upon many occasions by people who made a similar request. On the train I met people who said, "Whatever you do, don't permit this com­pulsory pooling proposal to pass."

An HONORABLE MEl\fBER.-They were not ~ll wheat-growers.

Mr. OMAN.-A.ll I spoke to were. Mr. HUGHEs.-You have not many

wheat-growers in your electorate.

Wheat [1 OC'l'OBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill.

lIr. OMAN.-I grow more wheat than the average wheat-grower. The honorable member is serving my purpose if he wants to delay the consideration of· this Bill. This year I am growing more wheat than the average wheat-grower, and I have a good-looking crop. I am looking forward to selling my wheat in the open market at, possibly, 7s. a bushel f.o.b. i. am not looking forward to part o.f it being sold ill a compulsory .Pool at the close of the year at 48. per bushel after another crop has been garnered else\yhere.

Mr. JACKSON.-Why 4s.~ Mr. Ol\£'A .. N.-W e shall have new wheat

competing with the present harvest next mid-year . . Mr. HOGAN.-'\That is to prevent the

Pool selling the whole of it at 7s. a bushel?

Mr. OMli.N.-The Government would not allow the '7,000,000 bushels required for local consumption to go out of the State?

Mr. WE'l"l'ENHALL.-YV'ould you? Mr. OMAN.-If I were a member of

the Government that did not allow it to go out of the State, I would see that the Government purchased the wheat at its value and held it for local requirements. We did that before.

Mr. SLATER.-That was exactly what you opposed.

Mr. Ol\£AN.~As a matter of fact, that argument carries no 1veight, because it was done.

Mr. HOGAN.-YOU would llOt do what you are advocating now. .

Mr. Ol\£liN.-I gave the honorable gentleman every opportuuity when he was making his second-reading speech. I, myself, am strongly in favour of a volun­tary Pool, and a voluntary Pool would have been initiated in Victoria if it haa. not been that a change of Government t.ook place. I attended a conference in the Prime Minister's office. Wediscussed the wheat-pooling question,. and con­sidered the proposals of the Common­wealth in helping the States to finance the scheme. I placed a recommendation on the file that the present system should be continued. Now I am going to ask the Leader of the Labour GOlvernment how it is that the Premier of South Australia, with the numbers behind him, accepted a voluntary Pool. It was because he knew that that was the prolpelf' thing to' dO', and, as I !hink, the popular thing to do.

Mr. ROGAN.-Popular with the wheat agents.

Mr. OMAN-.-Popular with the wheat­growers. Make no mistake about it, the Minister is misjudging public opinion to­day. Of that I am sure. I am prepared to go further, and say that, in order to plac'8 a volunta.ry Pool on all fours with private operators so as to give it a fair chance, I would support a. proposal to pay 5s. a bushel straight out, if that could be financed by the banking institutions. .

Mr. CARLISLE.-A voluntary Pool is no good.

Mr. OMAN.-N 0 doubt the honorable member will say that wheat will not go into a voluntary Pool if it is established, If he does so, he will confirm my state­ment.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-Why did you sup­port a voluntary Pool? You were against all Pools previously.

Mr. OMAN.-I have always been in favour of the co-operative method of disposing of produce. I am chairman of a co-operative butter factory, and I should like to see everyone there come in voluntarily, but 50 of the suppliers in the district send to Gee1rmg and to private concerns elsewhere.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-The reason why you agreed to a voluntary Pool was that ten of your number were knocked off at ~:he elections on the compulsory Pool Issue.

Mr. OMAN.-If we had a co-operative Pool, the man who does not desire to sell in the open market could put his wheat into it. Of what value is a compulsory Pool in one State when voluntary Pools are in operation in adjo'ining States 1 The proposal for a compulsory Pool submitted by the Government means that freight cannot 'be chartered and wheat cannot be sold here now. In South Australia, where they have established a voluntary Pool: freight has been chartered at an advan­tage of 2d. a bushel as compared with the freight to-day, and wheat has been sold ·on a high-market value and in fair quantity.

Mr. DowNwARD.-Did you approve of the action of the Commonwealth in say­ing that no wool should be exported from this country under Sd. a lb. when they were only getting 3d. or 4d. for it ~

Mr. OMAN.-Well, I am not here to answer for the Federal Government. I .find that I have quite enough to answer

624 Wheal [ASSEMBLY.] Marketin,q Bill.

for myself. When we were considering the Milk Supply Bill, the honorable mem­ber for Lowan moved that the following words be added to clause 2:-

Provided that, before undertaking the sale and delivery of milk by retail, such council shall, on demand, adequately compensate any person or persons then engaged in the sale and delivery of milk by retail within the area proposed to be 'seryed by Ruch council.

I am going to ask. the Minister of Agri­culture if he is in favour of compensa­tion to the wheat speculator and the men engaged in that industry? With regard to that amendment, the :M:inister of Agri­cult.ure said-'

Nobody else will be prevented from also dis­trihl~ting mille Not only does the Bill not p~ovlde for a monopoly, it does not even pro­VIde for the block distribution of milk, a reform th.at I should like to establish.. No person WIll have any claim to compensation.

The assumption is' that if it had been a close mOllopolJl there would have been a claim for compensation.

Mr. HOGAN.-What are you doing now ~ Putting up a case fO'r wheat-buyers 0'1' growers?

Mr. OMAN.-I am putting up a case for the primary producers of this State. I am op'p?se~ to the Government seizing commoOdItIes In the way proposed in this Bill. If the Minister of Agriculture were chairma1;l of this Board and had the fL~il1g of the pri?e for local consumption, I should have lIttle hope of having the world's parity under present conditions. ~~. ~L.ATER.-He has no such power,

Hnd It IS absurd to talk like that. Mr. OMAN.-When we had a cO'mpul­

sory Pool suggest.ed, and were dealing with £12,000,000 worth of wheat I said that it was :1 proper thing to pro~ide adequate payment to obtain the services of the best men in the community to handle this business. What is offered in this Bill? The elected members of the Board are to receive an. attendance fee of £1 11s. 6d. for each meeting of the Board at which a quorum is present. This rate of pay­ment, with ~wo effective sittings per 'week, would mean £162 a year fOil' men who are to have the control and management' of this great business. I speak with a good deal o~ experience in the handling of wheat, and I have come in contact with Jrlen who know all a bout this busiuess. There is one man I could name to whom I would not be afraid to pay £10,000 for his services in disposing of the wheat

grown in this State.' During the war period the success of the compulsory Pool was .entirely dependent upon men who had had the handling of wheat prior to the war. Every credit is due to them for the great services they rendered to this State. We are told that if a' man puts his .wheat into the Pool he is certain to obtain t~e average price secured by the PoOol. As a matter of fact, that will not be the case. The grower who is financially weak has to sell his scrip at the market value when he wants money.' In view of the fact that three members of the Board to control this Pool wiil be representatives of the growers, we may be sure that they will favour a negotiable security. I know how the scrip changed hands when I was controlling the Wheat PoOol in this State. I took a certain amount of risk, but I again ,and again

. urged the holders to retain possession of their serip against the market. My ad­vice proved to be advantageous to those who accepted it, but if it had turned out to be wrong I would have been rent in twain. A great deal has been said about the .advantage to millers if they could obtain their wheat direct froOm the seller, and we are told that the Pool will elimi­nate the middleman. With the possible exception of Mr. Harold Darling, every man in the milling trade obtains his wheat from the voluntary Pool, so there is not much force in that argument.

Mr. .POLLARD.-We eliminated the wheat speculatO'r.

Mr. OMAN.-We did much more than that.

Mr. POLLARD.-We eliminated men who made large sums 0.£ money and died millionaires at the expense of the COWl­

try. Mr. OMAN .-That statement is not

founded on fact. Mr. SLATER.-N one of them died very

poo~. . Mr. EVERARD.-It is a. pity they died

at aU. . 1\11'. OMAN.-The fact to-day is that,

O'wing to' interference by the GO'vern­ment, people cannot contract to sell their ~vheat nor to obtain freight.

Mr. HOGAN.-Yes, they can. Mr. OMAN.-In wha.t way ~ Where

is the Board to dO' that'~ Mr. HoGAN.-The Wheat-growers' Cor­

poration is carrying on its ordinary func­tions.

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 625

}tIr. OMAN.-If this Bill fails to be­-come law, what, can they dOl ~

Mr. HOGAN.-They can continue as at present.

Mr.' OMAN.-The fact tha,t' neither cOontr.acts to. sell wheat nOor for securing freight can be entered into just now places producer:s at a great disadvantage.

Mr'. HOGAN.-I have tOold you that freight can be ohtained.

Mr.,OMAN.-We axe entering upOon a big wool season, ,and a good deal of tonnage will be required tOo take the wool Ooverseas. There will alsO' be a good ,deal of wheat, and it is to' the interest of the man on the laud that he should take the market while the gOling is good. The wool season looks very sound, but {)ur wheat yield is entirely dependent on the area put under crop and the climatic conditions which prevail during the grOow­ing season in other countries. If 7s. a bushel is going to be paid for wheat fOil' January and February de­li very f. o. b. , a good deal of grOlund will be put under wheat in othe,r countries, and the grain will be har­vested in the middle of next year. That is a f.actor which will have considera,ble influence on the price of wheat later.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-Cheer up! It's all right.

Mr. OMAN.-It may be all right for the Government. If a compulsOory POGI is going to be established, I dOo not see why the Board now controlling the voluntary Pool should nOot be appointed. These men have had three years' expe~ience, and have dOone their work very well. Is there any reason why, with £12,000,000 at stake, we should hesitate tOo pay £2,500 to the men who will control this business ~ What right has the Government to a re­presentative beyond the Unde,r-Treasurer of the State ~ Mr. Pitt knows as much about the sale of wheat as any man in the Government Oor sitting on the Govern­ment side of the' House. He might prOo­perly be a member of the Board ex officio, and he would pro,tect the financial interests of the State. I am in favour of the taxpayers being represented in t,his way. Assuming that a com­pulsory POOlI is gOling to be estab­lished, one d the first things the Government, if it has any nerve, should say to the producers ~s that they want the wheat required fOor lo'cal consump­tion and are prepared to pay the market rate for it. I do not think

the GOovernment should have any power to withhold whea.t frOom sale, and possibly at a later date force the owner to accept a lower price than can be ob-tained at the present tIme. ,

Mr. DOWNWARD.-All the people who put wheat into the Pool will get the one price.

Mr. Ol\1:AN.-Wheat may realize 7s. a bushel f .00. b. at the beginning of the season, but come dOown to 4s. at the close. lt will be seen that the wheat sOold at the close OIf the season 'will realize very much less than that which could be obtained at the present time, fo'r instance.

Mr. HOGAN,.-What makes you suggest that the price will be' so low at the close of the seasOln ~

Mr. Ol\1:AN.-The increase in produc­tion in other parts of the world. The ~finister of Agriculture,' in introducing tliis Bill, said that it ensured the inclu­sion of all wheat-growers and embodied the adoption by them of the biblical prin­ciple .of "Bear ye one another's burdens." I do not think that can be done under this Bill. They must relegate their business to ~thers and share and share alike, just a~ the honorable member for MorningtGn said.

Mr. DOWNWARD. - Yes; but you wanted to. make out th.at if your wheat were SOlId later in the yea.r and prices fell yO'll would get less.

Mr. OMAN.-If wheat is sold at a later period of the yela1' a,t, a, lowelr pricel, that will reduce the average price to be paid to growers ..

Mr. HOGAN.-There is no reason for that.

Mr. OMAN.-The GOIvernment boast.s that it is in favOour of the principle that the wheat-growers shall rece,ive the full reward Oof their labour. To go back to the period :when we had a compulsory Pool: There was a very strGng agitation from this side of the House in favOour of different conditions to ' those then prevailing, and a, determined. effort was made tOI obtain the wheat at less than pa.rity. That effort was mad~ by the very men whOi are to-day in fa,vour Oof giving the wheat-growers the full .re­ward of their labour. I am in favOour of giving every man the full reward Oof his labour. I am in fa,vour of an equal op .. portunity to all. But I am not in favour of the policy enunciated by the hOonorable member for Mornin~ton-that is, the policy of share and share alike and an

626 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

equal division. I do not mean by equal division an equal divisiOon Oof the wealth of the community, but an equal division in regard to prices.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-You believe in a Saturday night divide, evidently.

Mr. OMAN.-No; but the Premier be­lieves in that. Queensland, with Labour in office, had a compulsory Pool. We know wha,t was done in the way of open­ing mea,t shops and in the sales of eggs and other commodities ..

Mr. DEANY.-Not forgetting butter. Mr. OMAN.-Yes, butter was also

handled. There can be no half-way house. We are either in or we are out. We are either in favour of Socialism or we are against it. In Queensland the commerce of the country was controlled by a LabOour Government· to a great ex­tent. The people gained very little ad­vantage, if any, from that control.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOcK.-They gained a lot of experience.

Mr. OMAN.-Yes, they gained a great deal of experience; and they encountered great financial losses.

Mr. BROWNBILL.-And the people re­turned the Labour party again to power at the following election. .

Mr. OMAN.-The Bill, as introduced, consists in great part of existing legis­latiQln, but there are severral new pro­posals. Sub-clause (5) of clause 4 pro­vides that-

The Chairman shall be such member of the Board as the Governor in Qouncil appoints to be Cliairman.

That is a ridiculous proposal. It shows what was in the mind of the Government. They wanted to have controL I am totally O'pposed to that provision. I am opposed, as I have sta.ted, to th€,re being any Government repre­sentative. The C~airman should be ap­pointed by the Board, and not by the Government. T'he wheat that is to be handled is nOit the property of the Govern­ment, but of the producers. .

Mr. BROWNBILL.-But there is a Go­vernment guarantee.

Mr. OMAN.-The Government's gua1'­autee is nil.

Mr. HOGAN.-Is it? Mr. OMAN.-Yes, it is nil. What call

we say of a guarantee of 3s. Sd. a bushel when .wheat is worth 6s. a bushel?

Mr. HOGAN.-You fo,re.cast six weeks ago that there would be no compulsory POool.

Mr. OMAN.-I did not think the men who arel controlling the; wheat Pool would go back on the voluntary system. I was surprised to find the Leader of th~ Country party joining with a deputa­tion to ask fo;r a compulsory POool. It brings to my memory an incident that uccurred a few years ago in my. own home. My wife was troubled by a mouse. She, therefore, put a small piece of card· board on the fioor, and made a trap with a basin and peg. In the slit of the peg she placed a. piece of' cheese. The mouse, just like the men representing. the Farmers Union in this House, was after the cheese. He grabbed the cheese, shifted the peg, and the basin dropped over him. My wife shortly afterwards. took the mouse and drowned it in a bucket of water. That was the end of Mr. Mouse. He was gone. The Min­ister of Agriculture has placed a bit of cheese in the slit of a peg. If country representatives attempt to grab the, cheese they will find that they have sacri­ficed the party they represent, once for all.

Mr. POLLARD.-But they will not· be drowned in a bucket of water afterwards.

Mr. OMAN.-I gave that simple illus­tration to show the danger of tampering· with apparent benefits. .

Mr. BROWNBILL.-It was a simpJe enough illustration.

:M:r. OMAN.-Yes, it was simple. I do not say that the members who repre­sent the Farmers Union party are quite as simple as all that. I have my doubts &bout their accepting the Bill. Then there is clause 23. This clause really" deprives the Board of control. The Mill~

. ister may prescribe the manner in which any particular thing is to be done, and in this way fetter the free hand intended to be given to the Board. The position obtaining in 1920 with regard to the Pool was essentially different from that which will arise under the present Bill.

Mr. DOWNWARD.-What is the dif­ference betwee~ this and a voluntary p~, -

Mr. OMAN.-I am opposed to any provision that will give the Governor hi' Council power to fix the price without the consent of the Board. The Boaru should represent the producers of this State: I am opposed to this Bill lock;

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1.924.J 627

stock, and barrel, and I shall vote against the second reading.' I am convinced that if the question were referred to th~ pro­ducers an overwhelming majority would declare for de-control. Forty per cent. of them in a very different market than obtains to-day declared for de-control last year. That, in itself, was a vindication of the action of the Government in 1921. That fact is indisputable. ,The reason why the Government are fighting for a compulsory Pool is that theY' know that without compulsion the wheat can be marketed, and the great bulk of it will be if this Bill fails to p,:\ss. The Government will have to hustle to buy the wheat required for local consumption'. It is the duty of the Go­vernment to consider that proposition. But to attempt to' seize and deal in the manner proposed with the produce of one set of the people is most unfair. It is against the best interests of the people in this State and Oommonwealth. .

Mr. ALLAN.-I followed with some inte,rest the speech made by the hOOlor­a.ble member for Hampden. He has a good deal of knowledge of the wheat business. But while I agree with him on many points, I cannot wholly agree with him. One of the main principles which we have stood up for in this House is that each producing section should manage its own business. I do not say that the Bill goes the whole distance in that respect, and I propose to point out II few alterations that could be made in the interests of the wheat-growers. As it matter of fact, I should like to ask the Minister, when the debate js nearing its conclusion, to give some indication of what amendments he would be prepared to accept in Oommittee. If that were done it would facilitate the passage of the Bill. It is abundantly evident to every one that we must reach finality in regard to the question of what we are going to do by next wheat harvest. Some of the States are already charter­ing, and although I understand that the Minister has given permission to the pre­sent tentative B9ard to charter, we do not know what kind of Pool will be ap­proved by the House, and consequently they are not OIl very safe ground. Whether ihis Bill will bring finality to the wheat business or not, it is certain that a mea-

sure will have to be put through to giv~ finality in the form either of a voluntary or a compulsory Pool. Objection has been taken by the previous speaker . tt;) a compulsory POOlI. That js the vital principle of the Bill. I desire to say on behalf of my pa,rty 'that, after oonsidering the Bill, it is our intention to support the compulsory pr.inciple provided We 'can get a board established that will be satisfac­tory from ,a wheat-grower's stand-point. I have no doubt that the Minister of

, Agriculture w'ill be prepared to meet us on that matter. The price it is proposed to pay for wheat, I say distinctly, is altogether too low. Three shillings and eigfutpence a bushel is a ridiculous price as a first payment, seeing that wheat is selling' to-day at 6s. 4d. per bushel, or probably a little higher.

Mr. HOGAN.-Do not call it a pay­ment; it is an advance.

Mr. A.LLAN.-I know it is an adVlance, and it is a ridiculously low advance with wheat at the price it is to-day. The Oommonwealth proposal was to advance 80 per cent. of the value of the wheat at the opening of the' season, and if the Oommonwealth and State banks could ad­vance 80 per cent. for a Oommonwealth Pool why cannot they advance it for a State Pool? It would be absolutely safe to do so, and the only question is whe,ther they can find the cash. I doubt whether the buyers in Australia could buy the Australian crop. at 6s. 4d. a bushel. I do not believe that they could finance even Victoria's quota, which would require about £10,000,000. The banks could not find that money. I am quite willing to admit that the buyers would not have to find the w holel of the money at onel time; neither would the Board. They would not buy the whole of the wheat in January. The purchase would be spread over two or three months, and by the time the last of the wheat was bought a large amount of the money would be returned in cash or credit. If the buyers could find the money to finance the wheat the Board should be able to find it just as easily, because it would come from the Oommon-, wealth Bank and the Associated Bank~. It has been repeatedly said here-I have said it myself-that we are distinctly dis­satisfied with the great disparity that exists between what the grower gets for

628 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] 1~la1'keting 13ill.

any particular commodity and what the consumer has to pay. That applies more strongly, perhaps; to fruit than wheat, but th,ere is a good deal of money made by wheat speculators. It was stated by interjection that one gentleman who was a wheat speculator had died wortfu more than £1,000,000. I do not object to anyone making money by speculation, but the wheat-growers are very foolish in allowing speculators to come in when they can manage their own business, and have managed it for a number of years, quite satisfactorily. The Wheat Board has done its work exceedingly well. There has been no Government interference. U nfortu­nately this Bill will open the door_ to Government interference, and we want to put that right. If the Board can run, as it has done for several years, a volun­tary Pool without any risk to the Go­~ernment or any inside interference by the Government, surely that can be done also in the case of a compulsory Pool.

Mr. HOGAN.-The clause that is in this Bill is the same as the section in the L'lct of 1921, under which the voluntay;y Pool was carried on. .

Mr. ALLAN.-Yes, but the Board pro­posed is not the same. It does seem as if a voluntary Pool must in the end be doomed to failure. I have not the exact

. figures, but, quoting from memory, ap­proximately 80 per cent. of our wheat went into the first voluntary Pool. Last year th6 quantity put into the Pool had dropped to about 60 per cent., and in a year like this, with wheat selling at a high figure, the whole of the 'wheat­growers would probably desire to sell, and get their price, at the railway platform. The honorable member for Hampden said that wheat had been sell­ing at 6s. 4d. or 6s. 6d. per bushel. It may be that the cargoes sold at the end of the year will bring less than that amount. That I admit, but the thing J!lay work out the other way. Supposing the price of wheat at the end of this season was 4s. a bushel, that would mean tha,t the a ve-rage price spread Q1ver the whole Pool period would be less than the price at present being charged. But sup­posing the se~son opens with wheat at 4s. a bushel, and ends with wheat at 7s. a bushel, the average price will be be­tween those t\\"O figures. Under a compul-

sory Pool, if there was a loss in one year there. might be a gaip. in the next year. If the price of whea~ .. rises it is bound to f.all, and if it falls it is bound to rise agaw.

·Dr. ARGYLE.-What goes up must come dowll. .

Mr. ALLAN.-Yes, a~d what comes down must, go up. N a,tur ally , I would pre­fer that the Bill should provide for the continuance of the Pool for a . longer period than one year. I do not say that the growers should not have a say in the matter, but I would like a clause to be inserted to enable the Pool to be extended for two or three years without an appeal to Parliament, provided that. on a vote being taken the wheat-growers were agree­able to its continuance. If we provide for only one ye'ar we shall leave the mat­ter in a state of uncertainty. We shall not know whether the Bill will be re-en­acted or not. If it is not re-enacted the Board will not be able to go on charter­ing, to proceed with their office work, and to get ready for their. buying arrange­ments throughout the country. I said a few momeI],ts ago that I would indicate what are the alterations my party desire to have l~ade in the Bill, and I was hope­ful that the Minister would be in a posi­tion to say before the second reading was passed whether he ·would give favorable consideration to the requests we intend to submit in Oommittee. It may be said that we would desire to put the price of wheat up to import parity. That is quite impossible seeing that there is a volun­tary Pool in New South Wales, and one also in South Australia. The Board could not fix the price for the wheat of Victoria at the- level at which it could be brought in from New South Wales and South Australia. Seeing that most of our wheat comes from near the Murray 'the difference should be very s,mall, and the Board might fix a price above what the parity should be.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-This Bill prohibits importations from other States, does it not~

Mr. ALLAN.-No; we have no power to do that.

Mr. EOGLESToN.-Does it not prohibit the Rai,lways Oommissioners carrying wheat from other States ~

:Mr ..... \'LLAN.-I do not think it does.

Wheat '[1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Mm'keting Bill. "629

Mr. OMAN.-There is wheat from a :small part of New South Wales that is looked upon as Victorian wheat, and .al ways has been.

~Ir. ALLAN.-This Parliament can­not stop· ships coming to Victoria, and wheat can be shipped from Adelaide round to Melbourne. The wheat "wuld not come by rail. This Parliament has no power to stop shipping, and, therefore, the Board would not be able to fix the price of wheat above its actual va~u.e.

Mr. CARLlsLE.-This Bill contains no provision to stop our Railways Commis­sioners carrying wheat from other States.

lir. ALLAN.-So far as I know, it .does not. We have no power to inter­fere with Inter-State trade. As I said before, I do not intend to speak at length, but I wish to indicate as clearly and con­-cisely as I can what objections we have to the Bill. In the first place it is pro­vided that a Board is to be constituted ~onsisting of five members, three of whom are to be elected by the '\Y'heat-growers .and two of whom are to be nominated by thel Minister. That viola,tes the very principle I laid down at the start. I want u' wheat-growers' Pool, not a Go­vernment Pool. I do not object to the word "compulsion," and, provided we can get a wheat-growers' Pool, I shall have no objection to compulsion. I du not want to say that we desire to remodel the Bill absolutely, and, after considera­tion, I have to state that we would not .object to a Board consisting of three members elected by the wheat-growers .and one Government nominee. Messrs. Baker and Judd have been mentioned as yery suitable men to be on the Board. Either of those gentlemen would be emi­nently satisfactory so far as the wheat­growers are concerned. We do not want to hedge the Board round so that no one ·can look into its operations. We have no desire to do that. The working of the Board that has been dealing with the business for the past few years has be(3n satisfactory, and everything has been .above board. We have no objection to their being on the Board for which the Bill provides a Government nominee. He would, I presume, be a ·financial expert, who would see from the stand-point of

~ the people of 'Victori~ that the fair thing was done.

Mr. LIND.-Did you mean that there should be a Board consisting of five mem bel'S or four?

Mr. ALLAl"V.-A Board of five 'mem­bel'S, consisting of four representatives of the :wheat-growers and the, Governm.ent nomInee.

Mr. LIND.-YOU said three representa­tives of the wheat-growers and the Go­vernment nominee.

Mr. ALLAN.-We do not object to the Board consisting of five members, but we want only one member to be nominated by the Government. That would mean four representatives of the wheat-growers . We also object to the provision under which the chairman is to be appointed by the Governor in Council. I have rarely seen a Board appointed that has not had power to appoint its own chair­man. In this case the Board, and not the Government, should appoint the chair­man. The members of the Board should know better than the Government who would be capable of carrying out the duties of chairman, and, probably, they would desire to change the chairman occasionally. The task of chairman is rather an arduous one, and the present Board has found it desirable to changp, the chairman each year. The remunera­tion of the members of the Board is fixed Rt 31s. 6d. per sitting, with a maximum payment of £500 per annum. I would sug­gest that the 31s. 6d. be struck out. We do not object to the payment of £500 per annum. The provision for the payment

. of 31s. 6d. pel' sitting would mean that country representatives, say from the Mallee, would have to live in Melbourne or they could not draw £500 in a year. If the Board met once a week at 31s. 6d. a sitting they would draw l~ss than £100 a year. If we ap­point men to a Board and eXpect them to give their full time to the work of t.hat Boa,rd, they shOluld be paid fixed salaries. The wheat-growers' representa­ti ves will ha,v€' to stand fOIl' re-election a,t the end of twelve months, and the wheat;.. growers will turn anyone down who has not give satisfaction. There~ore, we re­commend that the provision for the pay­ment of 31s. 6d: p.er sitting be struck out and that a fixed salary of £500 per anllun be paid.

630 Whea.t [ASSEMBLY·1 Marketing Bil •.

Mr. HOGAN.-Irrespective of whether the representatives attend the meetings of the Board or not?

Mr: ALLAN.-If they do not attend the meetings of the Board. the wheat­growers will attend to them.

Mr. I-IOGAN .-Once they had been elected they could not be shifted for a year.

Mr.ALLAN.-That is quite correct, but if they had not given satisfaction there is no doubt that they would. be shifted then. Olause . 23 provides that the Governor in Oouncil may make regu­lations with respect to-

(b) the ·pnrchase o.r sale or arrangements for the :purchase Or ·sale of wheat harvested during

. the season 1924-1925.

We have a decided objection to that para­graph. It is pre~ty nearly Government control, and we want Board control. Therefore, I hope the Minister will agree to the paragraph being struck out.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOcK.-What about clause 24 ?

Mr. ALLAN.-Olause 24 deals with the powers of the Governor in Oouncil in a certain contingency. Under clause 23 the' Governor in Oouncil has power to make regulations. That would mean giv­ing the Minister control of the whole affair, and taking it out of the hands of the Board. Olause 24 provides that when­ever the Governor in Oouncil is satisfied that the Board refuses to sell at a i·easonable price, or unreasonably refuses to sell, wheat for consumption in Victoria, lle-

(a) may cause inquiry tq be made into the' matter and,·.in parti.cular, ,as ,to what in the circumstances is the fair market value of wheat on the basis of ·which the Board should be required to sell the same for the pUJrPose aforesaid, and the classes of persons to whom, the minimum and maximum quantities in which, the times and places at ·which, and the terms and conditions under which it is rea­sonable in the circumstances to require' the Board to sell wheat for the purpose aforesaid.

I am quite willing to admit that that pro­vision was in the previous Act.

Mr. HoGAN.-That was section 18 of the Victorian· WTheat-grow,ers' Corpora.­tion Act of 1921.'

Mr. ALLAN.-That is so; but we do not like that provision at all. We do ndt think it is necessary. If we allow a Government nominee to be on the Bonrd, the Government and this Hou~e

will know just how the finances of the Board stand. If~ at any time, the Board is selling wheat at a price that is too high, and the matJ.er is brought up in this House, the House will decide the issue, arid that should be sufficient. J will abide by the decision of the House, what­ever it may be.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-That would make the matter purely a political one.

Mr.ALLAN.-It would hot make it a political matter at all. It is provided in the schedule that-

For the proper conduct of hispubJic business the Minister shall be en titled ,at aU times to put hHnself in direct communication with any of the officers and employees of the Board, and also to see all documents, papers, and minutes' which .he requires elither for Parliament 011' him­self, and to be supplied with co.pies thereof, and rulso to avail himself of the services and assist­ance of any officer or employee.

We think that is quite unnecessary. We. have no objection to the Minister having the power to examine the books of the Board; but we say that he should con­sult with the Board or its executive officers. I think I mentioned that we should like the wheat-growers to have the right, at the end of twelve months, to say by a vote. whether they would like the Pool to be continued or not. We want some definite provision, so that if the wheat-growers want the Pool continued for two Or three years they themselves may decide the matter by a vote. I under­stand that the intention 'of the Minister is to have a roll of wheat-growers pre­pared as soon as the wheat comes into the Pool. Naturally, he cannot get the roll ·before.

Mr. HOGAN.-We can get it before. Mr. ALLAN.-Not a correct roll. Mr. HOGAN.-We could get it reason­

ably correct. We want it for the election of the Board.

Mr. ALLAN.-I understo!od the Min­ister to say that ·the present Board would carryon tentatively. until. the whea_t­growers of Victoria can elect another Board .. Is that correct ~

l\![r~ HOGAN.-It is not exactly correct; it is partly co·rrect. . .

Mr.ALLAN.-I am'perfectly satisfied with the present Board, and we would be agreeable to the present Board carrying on the wheat business until a roll of wheat-growers can be obtained; that is, as soon as the growers put their wheat· into the Pool.

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 63l

Mr. HOGAN.-We can get it before I may say that I have been a supporter that. The Government Statistician has a of a cOmJpulsory POio,1 ever since 1914, record of the wheat-growers. when I brought the matter up here and

Mr. ALLAN.-I doubt whether there asked the Rouse to' take into considera­is anything like a correct record in the tion the position of the wheat-growers, office. I want to leave everything, and see what could .be d!one. After con­whether it is to the ,advantage or the sideration the Government established' a disadvantage of the wheat-growers, to be Pool. That was a compulsory Pool. It decided by the wheat-growers themselves. was not managed by the growers t.he~­I d~o not want a roll from which 5 or 10 selves. It was more or less satisfactory. per cent. of the wheat-growers are omitted It certainly. enabled the wheat-grower8 when a vital decision has to be arrived at. quring war time to' go. on producing As soon as a complete roll can be ob;~i:p,~d wheat. During the period of the war I do not 'object to the new Board being they' produced and· sold overseas about elected. I dOoubt whether a Board can £180,000,000 worth of wheat. They be elected by the whole of the wheat- could not possibly have done so unless growe~s until they have put their wheat there had been some organization in the into the Poot ~ ow, I ha,ve madel only a. shape of a Pool to allow them to carry short statement. Doubtless other mem- on. The Pool enabled Victoria to do her bel'S of the Country party will speak on share in financing the war. That would the measure. I just w,ant to say to' the have been very difficult if there had not Government that we are not opposed to been a Pool or some such organization. the Bill, but we do not want a Govern- To my mind there is very little doubt ment measure. We do not want the that the selling of the whole of the har­Government to control the produce of the vest of Australia, for preference, or fail­grain-growers. Neither do we want the ing that the harvest of Victoria, by one Government to control the produce' of the authority must result in a better averaglj butter producers. We want the butter price than would be obtained in the open producers tOo have the right to control market. If there was no Pool, w'hat their own industry. We want the fruit- would happen as far as the open market growers to have the same right, and also was concerned-and this yea,r, above aU the wheat-growers. yel3.rs~would bel that €,ve,ry wheat'-grower

Mr. HOGAN.-The honorable member would try to rush his wheat into the will remember that the original compul- market at the earliest possible moment, sory Pool did not provide flor any repre- and that would give an opportunity to sentation of the growers, and our party overseas buyers and merchants to knock at that time fought to give them repre- down the price. This year the price sentation. would probably be knocked down by from

Mr. ALLtAN.-I do not want to go Is. to 2s. a bushel when the big rush was over the past at all. I have quite enough on. A Pool could get over that period to do wit.h the present and the immediate without rushing the wheat into, the future. There are many dark patches in market, and could keep the price up. the past, and also some bright ones. T'hat being so, growers would have an However, we will not benefit by gGing opportunity Oof securing a better price Gn back and considering the past. We want the average than they would have ,in the to consider the present, and the best. way open market., F'or two or three years .. of marketing the wheat-growers' produce voluntary Pool has been in operation. from now on. No doubt a good deal 01 The result is that the price has been kept light will be thrown on the Bill by other a little higher than it would have been speakers. If the members of the Oountry if the open market had been relied party get an assurance that reasonable upon. Advantage· is taken by those consideration will be given to our requests who stand out of a voluntary Pool in C'ominittee, then we are· prepared to to market their produce and get the support the second reading. full price. They leave those who keep

1\1r. C'ARLISLE.-I do not propose to up the price for them to take the ~verage make a very long speech. A committee price obtained by the Pool. Probably the of the Country party has gone through honorable member fOol' Hampden would be the Bill, and the honorable member for one of those who would send his' wheat Rodney has pointed out pretty ~en Wh:lt. into the, open market, and rejoice in the alterations 'we should like in the measure .. fact that the" mugs" who weut into the

632 'Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

opposing this measure, and so we get, tele­grams from all over the place. I got a telegram to-day from somebody wp.o is. not a resident in my €llect,c,Tateat alL He did not even know the honQlrable mem­ber to send his message to. I handed it on to the member fOIl' the dist.rict, and 'he

voluntary Pool were keeping up the price to the extent :o·f Is. a bushel. There are a lot of people like that. They will start somet.hing in the nature of a voluntary Pool, and then they will not put their own stuff into it.' They take advantage of the fact that the price is kept up by the Po~o'l, 'and scoop' the benefits them­selves. "Ve know what happens in con-

, told me he did nQlt know the sender, al­though he knew most of 'the residents in that particular locality. There can be no doubt of the determined fight against this attempt on the part of the Gov€lrnment

, nexion with the Australian Dried F'ruits Association. Those who do not belong to that asS'olcia tion can sell all their dried fruits in Australia at a price that' 'has been kept up by the' association .. They like the association to continue, but· they stay out . of it themselves. The Australian Dried Fruits Association finds tha.t it cannot possibly go on any longer as it is at present constituted, and it is looking for a compulsory Pool. There must be organization, otherwise we will be at the mercy of every one who is deal­ing in, the same kind of product. Manu­facturers and business men are all asso­ciated, and the producers a.re the only men who are not organized. It is to the advantage o·f middlemen and brokers to keep us as we· are, because they can then manage to get a bigger share of the pro­ceeds of our proq ucts than in any other way. If we can be organized their chance of appropriating a big share of our returns is very limited. A nnmbelr of people who are interested in the sale of wheat are moving Heaven and earth to stoOP this compulsory Pool. I ha,ve been re1ceiving telegrams signed by employees of wheat merchants1 and people of that class, asking pIe to oppose the passage of this Bill., I notice that other honorable membe·rs are also receiving telegrams on the. subjed.. The;re is a very definite campaign against the organization of wheat-growers by means of a compulsory Pool. One has' only to read the news­papers to find the writers fulminating against this pro.posal. Le1tters appear over the signatures of "Grain-grower" and" Wheat-grower," arid no doubt the letters are written in the office of the newspaper publishing them.' ,

Mr. OMAN.-The great bulk of the let­ters are signed by the' ~rit,ers with the1ir own names. You niust admit that.

Mr. CARLISLE.-M·en who claim to have had 40 years' experience as grain­grQtwers have p~Qtbably been in a news­paper offiC?e for 40 months, and they write these let.ters. Mercha'nts wjth a litt Ie money are not afraid te>' 'spend it in

to organize the wheat-gro.wers so that they will get the benefit of the full'value of their grain. The honorable memher for Rodney has intima.ted preUy well what alterations we have decided should be made ip. the Bill. If the Minister agrees to them, I do not think he will find anythmg objectionable. There 1:S

ce.rtainly nothing unreasonable, and if the Minister can seel his wa,y to agree to the amendments we propose, the passage of ,this Bill in this House 1::, assured. I have no doubt the establishment of a com­pulsory Pool will result in a very much larger amount of money finding its way into the pockets of the grain-grQtwers. than is likely to be the case if we ,have to rely upon an open market. The expen­enoe we have had since 1914 has shown that we are very much better Q1ff under the pooling system, even under a volun­tary Pool, than we were when we had t.') rely upon the open marke.t. To my mind, the compulsory Pool is the last thing in organiza,tion, and no growe.r should be willing to continue any longer without a compulsory Pool. No business man jn Victoria., or in Auskalia for that matt€lr, can hope to carryon successfully if he is not organized and working with those who are in the same calling as himself.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-I should lIke to say at the outset that I have no doubt in my own mind whatever that the com­pulsory pooling' of wheat will not canse injury to anybody. I am just as satis­fied that the benefits that will result from thp. ef'tablishment of this Pool will be shared by a larger number of p~ople than will be the case if we have to return to the. open-market system. . The elXperience we have ,had of the voluntary pool­ing of wheat shows that 80 per cent, of the growers sent their wheat to the' Pool during' the first year, 15 per cent. during the second, and GO pCI' cent. during the thl:i·d. This rllust

Wheat [1 OCTO'BER, 1924.] Nlarketing Bill .. 633

not be taken to' indicate that growers are gradually becoming opposed to the pool­ing sy.stem. UnfO'rtunately, we have O'nly heard of men who stood outside the Pool who have been successful. That is a demonstration of the principle which we ha,ve heard all our lives-that our tri um phs are' proclaimed to the ,world, while our sorrows arel kept to ourselves. The man . who sold his wheat in the open market at 3s. lld. when the Pool was returning 4s. 4d. does not say anything about his experience. A number of growers sold their wheat last year at 3s. lId., but they said nothing about it. Un the other hand, the man who sold at 5s. gets on a housetop and announces th~ fact to the crowd. It is these instances of succeS8 which have influenced people in refrain­ing from sending their wheat to the volun­tary Pool. I know from actual results that the average return to growers who pooled their wheat has been much higher than that O'btained by those who sold ih 'the open market during the same period. That is a definite and clear statement, and I challenge anybody to deny it. It is because I believe that the compulsory poO'ling of wheat will injure no one that I am supporting this measure. If I am wrong, then it is an error of judgment, but it is a conclusion I have arrived at after the deepest investigation that I am rapable of. However, "ve want to make amendments in this Bill which we think will be in the interest of growers. Ire.,. gret that the Government did not adopt the schtlme put forward by the Federal Prime Minister, and. 1 am afraid that to some extent this matter has been made a political issue. That scheme' would have meant uniformity, which I think is absolutely necessary if the pooling of wheat is to be a complete success. However, unless somel amendments are granted wei are not going to assist the Go'vernmoot to lila.ke this Bill law. There are fundamental principles that must first be conceded. I now wish to refer to- some points in connexion with the marketing. of whela,t in the open market. Before the, wa,r -beforel we knew anything .O'f collective marke,ting-we were, giv€n to undeT'stand tha,t a, fair amount for the s€lrvices ren­dered by the wheat dea.leil' was Is. a, bushel. It was commonly stated that that was the; cost Q1f handling. 'Ve did not know

better in thosel.days. If :we saw that the price of wheat,' in London was equal to 6s .. £.o.b., we forsooth· ,had to take 5s. Nmv, when the pool­ing proposal, :first came along, the farmers of t.his State were, told by a· 1\!Iinister of the Crown that. they had not a man amongst them whOo was capablel of filling a positiOin on thel: Whea,t Board .. Further than tha,t, we we're' to,ld that ir the fa.rmers succeeded in getting a i'epresentative on the BOoard he would learn a lot of things he had no right ~Oo learn and it would not. bel good for him. We had toO fight 'almost to the dea,th to get a, man on thel Board. Yet, e,ven tuall y, we got a, Board com pos~ absolutely of whea,t-grow€il's: There had. come a change o'er the spirit of the scene sinoel we we~e told that farmers we~e not brainy enough to be' diredly re,pr€sente~ on thel Board. N oow, in proport,~on as wheat-growers weil'e cw'pointed to the Board, the management improved in effi­ciency. There was a reduction in hand­ling charges from Is. a bushel tOo Sd. This was effected despite increased wageo, in­creased interest on borrowed money, and incr€ases on every mortal thing apper~ taining to a business concern. So the job that we were, formerly told was worth ls. a bushel was done for 8cl. When the Government took Oove,r this business the fair handling charge was madel .4d. a bushel. Thel dealeifs th€n said tha,t was a fair ratel for the handling of the wheat. By the assistance of cO-Oope,ra,tive companies and by putting up a strenuous fight, the farmers succeeded in getting the hand­ling charge down tOi 3id. per bushel. 'Vhen that amount was allowed the Go­vernment found an t,hel dunna.ge, all thel cove'rings for the whea,t, and a lot of other things. As time progressed tha,t amount was reduced. To-day,' thanks to the hand­ling by the Board composed of men who are esseutia.lly wheat'-growe'rs-there are ,no captains Oof industry on the BO'ard-the pricel has been brought down to' a, little oveT 2d. per busheL The handling charge in. 1921-22 was 2.53d., in 1922-23 2.38d., and in 1923-24 (estimated), 2.3d. We have, therefore" gathered quite a lot of information as to how we were e,xploited under the open market conditions. I omitted to mention that when the handling charge was 3ld., the millers handled a lot of wheat. The highest charge they were allowed was l!d., and the lowest id. The 2.3d., the estimated handling charge foT' 1924, is for

Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] JIll a'rket'ing Bill.

thandling by the agent.s themselves. . No ,millers are concerned in it,. We have, therefore, an infinitely lower rate, and the work is done morel efficiently. I now pro­pose to show that under the open market conditions not 50 per cent. of the care of our' wheat was taken that is now taken. The wheat was barely covered at all. It was exposed to wind and bad weather, and was knocked about in the most disgraceful fashion. No ca,re was taken of it at all, or so it would seem.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-But it had been pur­chased.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-Of course, and those who bought it made ample provision against losses. Those men were not

. philanthropists. They made allowance, for all handling charges. What did it matter to' them if they lost a, bushel or two 1

Mr. OMAN.-The water tha,t, feU on the stacks increa,sed thel weight, and, there­fore, the profit made on the product.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-I am showing that under open market conditio:p.s the buyer allOows for all charges-freight, com­mission, insurance, losses in weight--'

Mr. EGGLEsToN.-And gains in weight. Mr. WETTENHALL.-Yes, and gains

in weight. Evelrything 'is taken into con­sideratiOon. ,The buyer knOows that owing to his careless system of management he will lose so much over a period of years. Or-we will put it the other way-we will say he does not gain so much. He makes allowance for losses, all of which come out of the pocket of the wheat-growelr every time. Everybody who ha,g knowledge of the business is aware that that is the case,. There are matters I could mention in con­nexion with the chartering Oof ships, and in other ways, but I am not at liberty to do so. Since the Wheat Board's ,handling of the business there have been 'great savings in commissions of various kinds savings' on items which were to the wheat-buyers a mere nothing. What ~as it to him if' he, paid a ship's captain £20 for signing a bill of lading? It was oJ?-ly . another bi t to come out of the pocket af the wheat-grower. What was it to him if he "chucke:d" the tally der1{ on the wharf a £5 note ~ It. was all part of the ex­penses. The Whe'at Board se,t to work and knocked off these, excrescences, and have saved annually in round figures £20,000 to the wheat-growers. Those are some of the reasons why I object to return to the system of the open market. The system of paying COlll-

missions to which I have referred might not be restOoreq immediately, but in the end would CQme back if the matter were left to spe,culators. I say deliberately tha t every member of the Wheat Board is a man who has grown wheat by the swe,at of his brow, and he is filled witlilI chagrin, as I have been, when, after sweltering in the heat of the sun and getting his wheat to the railway· station, he sees it treated almost with con­tempt. Every. member of the Wheat Board has a real interest in the, wheat­grower, and will endea,vour to save for him every grain he' can. That is why 'we want to keep them where they a,re} with necessa,ry sa,feguards so fa,r as the Governm~nt and the financing of the wheat POool are concerned. It has been stated by the honorable member for Hampden-and a great deal is beling made of the point to-day-that the wheat-growelrs are being offered 6s. 3d. a bushel for their whe'a,t. I know a grower who sold his. wheat fOor 5s. ld. per bushel during Show Week. He is hoping that this Bill will go through, when he says "That jOolly contract wi11 be' torn up! Wheat is 6s. 4d. now, and I am losing Is. 3d. a bushel." Suppos­ing a man sells a,t 6s. 3d. a bushe,l to-day, and the price goes up to 7s. a bushel, how will he feel abOout it 1 He will be kicking. himself, toOl. I was informed by some 0'£ my constituent-s tha,t they were being offered 5s. 6d. a bushel. If this Bill were passed any such cOon tract would be void, and I said my surprise was that the speculators were not offelring lOs. a bushel, as they anticipated that nothing would come of the contract. That is only by th~ way. The seorious pOoint to my mind is this: These buyers may offer 6s. 3d. or 6s. 6d. for a small portion of the wheat, but what would happen if the,y had to buy the whole of the forty Qr fifty millio'll bushe,ls which we, expect will be thel yield this season ~ I under~ stand from inquiries I have made, also from the Treasurer, that there is only approxima,tely £6,000,000 ava.ilable fOol' the financing Oof this crop. It does not matter very much who does the buyinK' If it is dOone by the speculato-r he geb the mQney from the banks. He may have a. paltry 10 per cent. or 20 per cent. of the cash, and the balance of the mOoney comes from the Associated Banks covered by the Government guarantee.

Wheat ' [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] 1J!1arketing Bill. 636,

~fr. OMAN .-Does not that argument. destroy your previous argument about the speculators' profits ~

Mr. WETTENHALL.-No. I am going to' show that the high prices that a.re being offered WQiuld be utterly im­possible in the case Df an open maxket. As the honDrable member for Hampden knolws, if we ha.d an open market the price of wheat would tumble. I do not think the wheat-growers would get within ls. 6d. of the price that is being Qiffered. Under open mar­ket. conditions, before thel ,Vhe'at Board was established, the information that was given to' the whea,t-growers by the press was designed to' serve a purpose. \Vhen the speculators wanted to sell they were given information about falling markets.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-There is more knQiwn about wheat than any other product.

Mr. WETTEN:HALL.~What I say is that infQirmation is supplied to the daily newspapers by speculators to' suit their own purposes. It always was so a,t that time, and it is so very largely to­day. We have definite knowledge that in certain instances the newspapers did not print the" dinkum" stuff. I do not say that the news supplied was deliber­ately falsified, but it was designed to serve a certain purpose, and it may be tha.t the newspapers were drawn into the publication of it. I was dealing with the question of finance, and pointing out that there is only a. limited amount of money available to' cOlver the very big crDp of the 'coming se'aSQin. If the wheat-growers are thrown into the hands of the speculators, what they will receive will be not an advance, but a first and final payment. There is one point in regard to the pooling of wheat that people are apt to forget. They speak of the first advance as if it were a final payment. But that is not so. The ex­perience of the last few years has shown tha.t on the average the Pool prices have been better than the open market prices. In my QipiniQin, by agreeing to a com-

, pulsory Pool we shall be doing no injury to anybody. The honorable member for Hampden spoke of the injustices done to' minorities by compulsion. I would point Qiut that every me1asure that is passed by this Parliament compels some minority to abide by the decision of the majO'rity. What is the use of indulging in' " high­falutin" language about freedom 1 What. freedom have we 1 If we are in a min-

orit,y, a,nd thel majority decide, against us, we ha.ve nQine. Suppose that from 30 to 45 per cent. of the wheat-growers elected to stand out of the compulsory wheat Pool and to market their wheat when they liked and where they liked. If that minority by their action depreciate the value of the property of a rn.ajority of their neighbQiurs, there is every justifica­tion fOir bringing them into line. It is upon that principle that Parliament made provision fQir the a.ppointment Df Wages Boards to :fix wages. When a minori ty in any line of busi­ness starts out to do anything that would injure a majority Q1f their fellows, it is within the right of the State to step in and control them. It is done every day in regard to wages and business. We have Customs duties to protect the manufac­turers, and Wages Boards to protect the workers. Many of our Acts are for the purpose of protecting the majority against the minority. I can quote a de:finite in­stance to show that the minority, by standing out, have de:finitely injured those who have gone in for collective market­ing in Qirder to assist themse,lves. Last January, freights oversea~ were steady at 37s. 6d. a ton. There was a rise of 3d. a bushel, or 2s. a quarter, in the price of wheat: Had there been one authority for chartering ships, aU the frelight available could have been obtained for 37s. 6d. a ton, but because there were speculators out after profits, they bumped freights up in a few days to 50s. a ton. The whole of that rise of 3d.' per bushel in wheat was lost by the bumping up of freights, and, further than that, the speculators got the ships and actually dropped the price to the grower. That shows', in the :first place, how the wheat of those who stand out injures the men who are col­lectively endeavouring to assist them­selves, and, in the second place, the care­less disregard of the speculator for the men who produce the wheat. In this case, the speculators got the ships, and, as I have said, dropped the price to the grower. The rise of 3d. per bushel was lost to the grmvers because Q1f the bump­ing up OIf freights. There are hundreds of other ways in which the whea,t of th,e minority standing out of the Pool does in­jury to the men who have put their wheat into the Pool. The honorable member for Hampden referred to the proposal of the Government· as State trading. I beg

-S36 Wheat [ASSE:MBLY. ]

to differ with him. I am opposed to State trading, but this is not State trad­

:ing. By the very greatest stretch of the imagination you cannot place on the com-munity the possibility of having to find a penny.

Mr. OMAN.-Then why do you want to amend the Bill in a certain direction?

Mr. WETTENHALL.-I do not see any trading business in it that I will have to amend. It does not provide for State trading, and I wish that to be made clear throughout the country. Because I am supporting the measure I have been ac­cused of turning turtle on my own con­victions, and charged with supporting the State in a trading venture. There is no venture about it. The very most .that can be said is that the State is lending its patronage to the wheat-growers for a few months. It is giving them its moral sup­port, and doing something that the banks ought to be ashamed to demand. In view of what the growing of wheat and of o~hel' primary products means to this State, there should not be any need for a Go­vernment guarantee. The honorable member for Hampden has stated that, though t.he Gorvernment Wheat POIOI handled 60,000,000 bushels of w heat or more in six years, the 8tate of Victoria was never caned Oll for al penny. It neve'r will be called Oll foi'" a penny so far as the ~hea,t-grOlwers are concerned.

l'Ir. Ol\f.AN.-We handled 220,000,000 bushels of wheat.

:M:r. WETTENHALL.-In the six years, 220,000,000 bushels of wheat were handled, and it did not cost the State. a penny. I have not the slightest fear that this Pool will cost the State anything either. Therefore, I 'would ask honor­able members where State trading comes in. In my opinion, the Government are simply giving the wheat-growers of ·the State moral support, so that they may help themselves in getting the best that there is in their business. The financing of the first payment is a very vital matter, and before the debate concludes I should like to ha,ve some assurancel from the Minister or from the Treasurer, who is vitally concerned, as to the practicability of increasing the advance from 39. 8d. a bushel to as high an amount as possible. I may assure, them that the promise of an 80 per cent. advance in· rega,rd to- the voluntary Pool, as outlined by the Com­monwealth Government, was a very great

. fea,ture, in making that sch€me interesting to the growe,r. I beHeve, that a consider­able increa.se on 3s. 8d. a bushel is pos­sible', and the very fullest informat.ion should be given to us, and to the people generally, as to what the position is, . be­cause that is a matt€,r tha,t will vitally afield the passage of the; measure, and also the inte;rest or othe,rwise that will be taken in it in the country. I support my Leader in sa,ying that the Board wilt re'quire to be made essentially a wheat-growers' Board. I have shown' that the whe,at-grorwers have loya.lly carried out their duties, and are competent to' manage the business. It would be quite sufficient to ha,ve on the Boa,rd one repTesellltative of the Government to safeguard the little bit of interest the State, is putting into the business. I am in agreem€nt with my Lela,der on the, questioll of the payment of the. members of the Board. The wheat­growe,rs' representatives will have, to givo their experience and time,. to the work, and it is not fair that the~ .should be paid on an attendancel basis. It .is preposte,rous to ask men living in t.he, Mall€,e to come down to Melbournel to attend a, Board meeting for 31s. 6d. I do. not seel how the Government can cavil at adopting the provision tha,t thel whe,at-growers them­selves adopted voluntarily. When we asked men to become members of a, Board to manage, the voluntary Pool we agreed to pay ea,ch 0.£ them £500 peT annum, and trusted them to give good and hon€st ser­vice for it. We are satisfied that they did, and thereforre we a,re quite sure that to

. make a. success of the Board provided for in the Bill the same princi plel will haNe to be adopted .. Payment on an attendance basis is not a fair proposition, nor is it . at all applicable to a Board of this nature. It is prorvided in clause 7 that-

The Minister may arrange with any bank or banks or with the Government of the Com­monwealth for financial accommodation.

If it is possible to provide. in this measure that the first payment' will 00 in the re,gion of 75 per cent. or 80 per cent. of the ma.rke,t price of thel wheat, it will fa,cilita,te; the passagel of the measure a go-od deal. The position is difficult, but I think th€, Government should bend their' energies towards securing some,thing of that nature. That would make all the difference as fa the, way in which the Bill will be received g'enerally. I wish to say a, word or two 0~1 clause 24, which pro­vides that if the Board refuses to sell at

Wheat (1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 637

a reasonahle price, or unreasonably refuses to sell wheat for manufacture O'r con­sumption in Victoria, the Governor in Council may caUSI3 inquiries tOo bel madel into the matter, and in particular as to what, in the circumstances, is a fair mar­ket value Q1f wheat Q1n the basis olf which the Board should be required to sell the same. In every other industry the rate of payment for work done is based on the price of the article produced, plus duty and plus the cost of bringing it to this country. The returns which they get from their wheat repre­sent the wages of the farmers fOil' twelve months. The local manufacturer of ploughs, harvesters, and agricultural im· plements gener~lly, is paid Q1n an import parity basis. The farmers have to' pay for their implements on that basis. Surely, then, when it comes to supplying the men who are protected in that way with food, the farmers are entitled to similar protection. When it comes to a question of what is, or what is no't, the right price, I think the only fair basis is that of the import parity. In 1914 we had to import wheat into, Victoria. We were then foroed to, pay 8s. a bushel for Argentine wheat. What argument 'on earth can there be for denying to our own men in our own country the price that we are agreeable to pay to foreigners ~ The wheat which I grew in that year cost me £3 a bushel. If such an occasion recurred we should give to' our own growers 'What we would have to give others for supplying us with whe,at.

lVlr. WARDE.-vVas it really wheat that we got ~

Mr. WETTENHALL.-Some of it was utter rubbish. All I ask is that the same basis of remuneration should be taken, as far as the wheat-growers are concerned, as applies -to all other sections of the com· munity.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK. - I must expr~s my astonishment that no member of the Government has answered the statements of the honorable member for Hampden, who has had more experi­ence of the working of wheat Pools than any ,one else in Victoria'. I also think that the request of the Leader of the Country party called for some statement on behalf of the Government with regard to ,the amendments which he suggested. Remembering what an outcry there was from members of the Labour party a few years ago in connexion with the price of bread and wheat, I have been waiting to

hear from Ministers o'r supporters of the ,Government some explanation as to how this Bill will benefit the consumers. Possibly we shall find that the position is similar to that. which we discovered a day or two ago, when the Chief Selcretary re­moved the scales from the people's eyes in connexion with the price of gas. When he and the O'ther members of his party were sitting 011 this (the Opposition) side of the House, they called attention to' th~ enormities and iniquities of thel M:etropoli. tan Gas Company, and maintained that the price of gas must be brought down.

Mr. C.UN.-It has come down. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Not

as the result of legislation such as mem­hers of the LabO'ur party were screaming out fOT when they were in Opposition. The Chief Secretary has just announced that" whether the Government measures go through or not, there is no prospect of gas becoming cheaper for some cQinsider­able time. It is on be-half of the con­sumers that members of the Labour party have in the past spoken so loudly and so glibly, and I am wondering when the Government will be in a position to dis­close how this Bill will bel of benefit to the consumer~.

Mr. TouTcHER.-They are afte'r the votes of the Country party.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Surely no Government would do that sort of thing! I am ,vaiting to hear how lVlinisters will explain their present pro­position, and show the consumers, par­ticulady tho~e in the great metropolitan area, how, as the result of a Labour Go­vernment getting into power and introduc­ing a compulsory wheat POQiI, bread will be cheaper.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-YOU have very little faith in our ability.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-No Opposition ever has any faith in the ability of the GQivernment. As I pointed out on a previous occasion, the Govern­ment are, withholding some of the legisla­tion which they promi8E'd their supporters outside. '

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-I am glad you are concerned about that. '

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The Government are playin!5 a clever game. They have not brought forward any of the things which the industrialist section were

'promised. Their supporters outside will be wondering when a proposal which will be of interest and yahle to them will be

638 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] J'la1'keting Bill.

introduced. It is evident that the Go­vernment are walking warily-ve,ry warilJ indeed.

Mr. BROWNBILL.-One step at a time. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-In

the wQirds of the weH-knQiwn hymn, " One step enough for me.'.' The,y want to show other sections of the community that Codlin is their friend, not Short. At present they are very sympathetic and desirous of he'lping the, great interests of the farmers, and sO' they say, "We will give yQU a compulsory Poo1." When the war brQike out, we experienced a big drought. To meet the position we bor­rowed £1,500,000 from the State Savings Bank, and we told the farmers to trust in Providence, and that rains WQuld surelv corne'. The Government promised to help, and all sections of the House cQimbined to encourage settlers to remain on the land, not only in their own interests, but in the interests of the community gene­rally. They were urged to plant exten­sively, and SOl they did. The result Wal that we had a record harvest.

Mr. POLLARD.-The wheat speculators did not assist them.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The honorable member seems to have an idea that everybody is always trying to get at sQmebody else. I would advise him not to be S'o ready to impute motives, irrespec. tive of what other peQple's politics may he. When anyone gets up to speak Ot! this (the o pposi £i on) side of the House, it is ma.rvellous the amDuntof political sniping which is indulged in by members Dn the Ministerial side.

Mr. CAIN.-There was political sniping from your side when I was talking.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-vVell. that should not be, because the honorabl~ gentleman is a decent chap. I was refer­rin~ to the record harvest after a drought such. as has never been e,xperienced in the knowledge of white men. Here, then, was a grelat harvest, but there was no means of securing freight. TD deal with the situation the adoption of the pooling system was suggested. That was done to help the man on the land as well as every other· section of the community depen­dent upon industry. It was necessary that some such scheme should have been evolved. After the war was over it was announced by Governments, not only in Australia, lmt all over the wor1d where f'xceptional me.asures had been adopted to meet war difficulties, that it was desir-

able to return to normal conditions of trading. After three years we had a voluntary Pool in this State. Honorable members will recollect that, as a result of political troubles, we had an election in 1921, on the question of a compulsory Pool.. Will honorable members now sup­porting the Government say that the re­sult of that election was a declared ex­pression of opinion on the part of the people of this State in favour of a CDm­pulsory Pool? They know fun well it was not. The proposal for a compulsory Pool was not gone on with. This Par­liament is supreme in matters of this sort, and it· legislates to give effect to the desires and needs of the people. I twas held that there was no definite determina­tion in favour of a compulsory Pool. Parliament is supposed to express the will of the people.

Mr. HOGAN.-It does not always do so.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK. - I am now dealing with the historical side of this question. As the result of tho election in 1921 there was no expression of opinion on the part of a majority of the people for a compulsory Pool. Then for three years we have had a voluntary Pool carrying on its opelra,tions side by side with open trading. VVe, have, been shown by the honorable mem1er for Hampden the splendid results of the Pool he controlled in the interests of the farm­ing com.munity generally. It is now being argued that there is need for a com­pulsory Pool because the voluntary Pool has to some extent failed. Where has it failed ~ The accounts issued by those controlling the voluntary Pool" show that it managed this business at 2d. per bushel cheaper than the compulsory Pool did. We ha,ve been told that, in 1921-22, 80 per cent. of the wheat-growers sent their wheat to the Pool. In tJ:re following year the percentage fell to 70, and last year it feU to 60, with a prospect of being still less for the coming season. Surely it is a proof of the successful working of the voluntary Pool that its business has been conducted at 2d. per bushel cheaper than that of the compulsory Pool. But notwithstanding that, fp.wer growers are sending their wheat to the P~ol. They have had experience, and they have the choice hetween the voluntary Pool, man­aged very well, and .private enterprise.

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 639

I know that honorable members sup­porting the Government do not be­lieve in private enterprise at all, but we must take this fact into .consideration; although only 60 per cent. of the growers are now willing to put their wheat into a voluntary Pool after the experience they have had, the Government wants to compel all growers, whether they like it or not, to put their wheat into a compulsory Pool. What

'justification is there for a compulsory Pool in these circumstances? To say that people who do not even want to be asso­ciated with a voluntary Pool should be eompelled to join one is a, new demo­eratic doctrine altogether. Yet that is what is being put forward by the present Government, and supported to some ex­tent by members of the Farmers Union in this House. I do not think it can be successfully claimed that the result of the last general election indicated a great demand for a compulsory Pool.

Mr. PRENDERGAST. - The honorable member must recollect that the Labour party is the only one which came back with an increase in its numbers, and we put the compulsory Pool' in the fore­front of our programme.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAOOOK. - I am aware of the fact that it was a pro­minent plank i.n the bonorable gentle­man's platform, but I do not think it can be said that the elegtiohs turned in any way upon it. There was certainly no public demand for a compulsory Pool. It is interesting at this stage to consider the proposals of the Prime Minister. Honorable members know that his scheme involved the four great wheat-producing Sta.t~ in a, voluntary, Pool. I at­tended many of the conferenoes which dealt with this matter. It is true that the Federal scheme contained conditions that. were not acceptable 'to the present Government, but here is the remarkable feature about this matter, and I expect it to be explained by some one sitting on the Ministerial side of the House. In this Parliament we have a Labour Go­vernment in power without having a majority of members, and the circum­stances are familiar to everybody. It has brought forward a scheme for a compul­sory Pool; yet in South Australia. and Western Australia, where Labour has a majority in Parliament and can bring

forward its proposals without being de­pendent upon any other section of the House, no suggestion for a compulsory Pool has been made. The proposal for a compulsory Pool has been brought for­ward in this Parliament with the object of securing political support from a sec­tion of the mem~ers sitting in opposi­tion. The proposal is for a compulsory Pool to be controlled by the Government. Government supporters tell us that they are in favour of a co.mpulsory Pool tha.t will benefit the farmer and the consume'r alikel• Now, this House, and certainly the people outside, are entitled to. know how this Bill, if it becomes law', will operate in favour of the consumer. Thel Government consists o.f twelve membelrs, nine' of whom are representa,tives of metropolitan elec­torates. There are in their constituencies the bulk of the consume·rs of bread, and the people are entitled to know just in w hat way this Bill will benefit them.

Mr. SLATER.-Clause 24 shows that. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-We

have heard from the Leader of the Country party that his party proposel to suppo.rt the' seco.nd reading of thel Bill, But the criticism by thel honorable mem­ber for Rodney of clause 24 sho,ws what his feelings and the fe!elings of those as­sociated with him are. Hel asked fOor a definite sta,tement from the Minister in cha,rgel of the Bill, or from some other member of the Go.vernment, regarding what amendments, if any, the: Government would be prepared tOo accept.

Mr. HOGAN.-Thei Bill will help the con­sumers by substituting organized marklat­ing for hapha,zard marketing.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.--Bllt ' it is no,t marketing.

Mr. HOGAN.-It is. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The

honOorable, membe,r for Lowan says it is not ma.rketing at all. Anywa:y, boiled down, we arrive at this unique spectacle: A Bill is brought in, the purposel of which is to give a better return to thel farmer for his whe.at, and at the same timel to give the, consumer a che,aper loaf. We are entitlp.d to aD. elxplana,tion as to how t.hat can be brought about. Tn the jnte,rests of their own party the Government should give that explanation. We want to know how such an ideal can possibly be realized. We ha.ve had the spectacle of the Prime Minister, acting on behalf of thel Common­wealth, opening up negotiations with the fonr wheat States, and putting forward

640 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] MarketitJ~g Bill.

oorta,in proposals which were not accept­able to thel State Governments. vVe all represeillt the same peopler, whether we are in the Federal sphe're of politics or the State sphere. Weare aU returned on the samel franchise. Ther Victorian Govern­metI1.t., tha,t has not an absolut,e majority over all parti·es combined in this House', has undertaken the, passage, Oofa compul­sOory whela,t, pool Bill, whilst in Western Australia. and in South Australia" where, the Labour party a,re in ample control with independent majorities, such a pro­posal has berem turned down. Why 7 Be,­ca.use in those States the Governments a,re satisfi·ed. with ther voluntary Pool system. The whole effort since the war has been to ge,t awa,y from interfea:-erncer with trade in any.direction. If by any chance this Bill finds Its wa,y om to the statute-book, a unique specta.cle will be presentred to the people of the civilized worrld. Only one country-RuSISia-has so far gone in for a cOIlThpulso,ry wheat, POOIL The State of Vic­toria. will be the only other count.ry to fol­low tha,t example. That is the position. Russia. and Victoria. will be the only twO' parts OIf the world where such a la,w opea:-­ates. We know wha,t the experiernoel of Russia under her Soviet Government' has been. The Russian pe,asants stated, (( We are not going to grow wheat to' ber se,ized compulsorily and utilized by the peopler in ther towns in order that they may have cherape'r food. It will not bel remunerative." In the year after the compulsory 'Pool there was a famine, and the farmers diJ not go in for growing wheat at all. The unique spectacle that we are now pre­sented with is that of copying R:ussia.

I We are proposing to have a compulsor.Y wheat Pool, but it is to be restricted in jts operations to one year. As was said by the Leader of the Country party, if we are to have a compulsory Pool at all there should be p.rovision in the Bill for its continuance- beyond the year should that be thought desirable. .

Mr. HOGAN.-YOU said that we are ~opying Russia. Russia is copying .us. We had a compulsory wheat Pool durmg the war.

Rir ALEXANDER PEACOOK.-I have explained the circumstances under which that compulsory wheat Pool was established. We had abnormal crops in 1915 and the whole world was paralyzed by the·war. We had immense quanti~ie~ of wheat in the four great wheat-groWIng

States, but We had no means of getting it away. In the interests of the com­munity generally, and of the whea t farmers in particular, some scheme had to be devised to meet that situation, and that schemel had to! bel financed. There is another aspect of this question that calls for conside;ratiorn. In t,he ma,tter of the esta,blishment of this co:mpulsory wheat Pool this Sta.te is to! gO! " on its own." If anything is to be done, it should. he A ustralian in character. This is e,vidently an attempt to inveigle honorable memb~r~ on this side of the House into a com­pulsory Pool. How can we tell the farmers, who are looking forward to their next. crop, that this Bill will benefit them when the price that is offered for wheat t.o-day in the open market is 6s. 2d. per bushel or mme, and the. Government pro- . pose to ,offer as a first payment 3s. Sd. a bushel 1

Mr. HOGAN. - Farmers have been selling wheat at 5s. ld. and 5s. 2d. J.

bushel. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-One

honorable member told me that in tho north-eastern part of the State he had seen a contract that had been signed for the sale of wheat at 6s. 2d. a bushel. That man, assuming that there is no scheme of this kind, but only a voluntary Pool and a free ma,rket, will be looking forward to the time when he will get his cheque and be able to meet his financial engagements. But' under clause 10 of this Bill every contract made in Victoria on or after the 26th day of August, 1924, so far as it relates to the sale of Victorian wheat or flour for delivery in Victoria on or after the 1st December; 1924, will be declared to be void, and have no effect. Parliament is 'being asked to step in between citizens who have entered into certain contracts, and to declare those contracts null and void. Quite a large number of persons will be placed in a false position, and, it may be, seriously injured in their business if· this clause becomes law. I draw special attention to this provision, and I trust that it will be very carefully scrutinized by honor­able members when the Bill· gets into Committee. After the speech we have had from the honorable member for Rodney, I assume it will be allowed to go into Committee in the hope that amendments will be made in it. I djd

Wheat [1 OC'fOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 641

not expect to :find in the Bill a provision like clause 11, which will practically enable the Wheat Board to call on the Railways Commissioners to refuse to carry any wheat or :Hour or other pro­duct of gristed wheat owned by any specified person in Victoria. That, again, means interference with the contracts that have been entered into, and that provision also will require critical. ex­amination. I do not see. why we should. start a Pool in connexion' with wheat if we are not to have Pools also in other products of the soil. After the Pool which we established to meet an abnormal condition of affairs, there was an agita­tion amongst all sections of the people for the creation of other Pools, supported by the credit of the Oommonwealth or t4e St.ate. These included Pools in pea­nuts and radishes. I do not. know whether hon0'rable members can recall a leUe,r that appeared at that time under the headings, "Get-Rich-Quick Device," "The Pool Vogue," 'and was signed, "Hardhit." This gentleman suggested a radish Pool. I will read a part of what he said-

On behalf of the very large body' of growers of radishes, I write in the hope of some movement being started with the object of Government assistance to us to relieve the present glut. . . . With a little Govern­ment help one of the large canneries could handle our snrplus stocks, and so ensure a regular supply when out of season. Radishes are good food, should make a nice pie, might be used instead of cherries and olives in cock­tails, would protect tile dairy farmer in years of drought, a:s radishes are fattfming for cattle, and should be a good milk producer. Further, the skins could be dehydrated, and when powdered should make an ideal colouring for ladies' cheeks. If preserved and kept soft in nice, syrup they would be better than eggs at election time, not having any yoke to spoil the candidate's white vest.

This demand for additional Pools has disappeared' o,f recent years, and trade is getting back to normal conditions. I remember reading a sh0'rt time agO' an extract from the German Socialist news­paper VonlJQ,1·ts, which showed that the people of Germany, as the result of the experiences they have gone thrQlugh, are in favour of removing from Go­vernment and municipal contro,l many 0'f the utilities that have been carried on by the:111 under conditiOins somewhat simi­larto those we aTe p~oposing to estab­lish under this Bill. vVhy shQluld the farmer be coerced with' regard tOo one of his products ~ As the honO>I'able member

fOil' Hampden said in his excellent speech, is not this nOothing, more nor less than a first step towards nationalization 1 If, the Bill becomes la,w, w here is the line to be ,drawn 1 Are we to have a cQommon Pool for all' our products 1 There has been no demand Qln the part Q1f t.he public O'f Victoria for legislation of this kind. ' 'l\ir. BAILE-Y.-Yes;' it was the only

issue in the e,lections Qlf 1921, and the GQovernment were defeated on it.

'Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The G0'vernment were not put out of office. They said they were in favour Oof' a voluntary Pool. We cannot get over the far.t that in the first year O'f the Pool-1921-22-80 per cent. of the wheat was dealt with by it, whe:reas for 1923-24 the quantity handled is estimated at 0'nly 60 per cent. This shows that the farmers do not want even a voluntary Pool. They want to be allowed tOo conduct their Qlwn business in the same way as other citi­zens, but the Government are' proposing to compel them, willy-nilly, to s~bmit to com pulsion, and to' take away from them their right tOi contrQoI their own property. ",There is this sOirt of thing going to end ~

-Mr. EGGLESTON rose to speak. Several HONORABLE l'IEMBERS.-Oh,

0'h! The St. Kilda wheat-grower!

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I thought ~ would get a cat-call of that kind, and that sort of objection" reveals a rather curious temper on the part of the House. It seems to be suggested that because a man does not grow wheat he should not have anything to say about anything that arises out of the marketing of that com­modity. There is another side of that argument, too. It involves also the pro­position that the only persons who should pronounce any opinions in the House on a question of this kind are those who are financially interested in it. I say that, iF: absolutely absurd. The growing of 'whe.at has nothing to do with this ques­tion at all. It is an economic and busi­ness question, and should be decided on those lines. One honorable member said that, because certain farmers had per­spired a great deal in connexion with growing wheat, they were the best per­sons to market it. The very case that members who have supported the Bill have put forward to-night is based on the fact that the farmers cannot market wheat. Why should they have a Pool if they can

64:2 Wheat ' [A.SSEMBLY. ] Marketing Bill.

market the wheat themselves? They say they have not been able to market wheat effectively, but that wheat-growers are the only persons who should be on the Board that is to market wheat. The two things are absolutely inconsistent. The fact is, of course, that there are two entirely dif­ferent processes involved. One is the growing of wheat, and the other is the transporting of it to the markets of the world where it can be sold. The two things are. quite different, and have to be judged by entirely different considera­tions. The resentment felt at anyone not a farmer expressing an opinion as to the economic and business effects of an arrangement of this kind is absolutely absurd. I feel that there is no reflection on me, but on the persons who feel that resentment. It can never be said that city members of this House have taken any stand against the interests of the country or the inhabitants of the country districts. The Liberal policy that has been carried out. during the last ten years has been absolutely in favour of country interests, and if there has been any neglect it.has been neglect of town interests. The policy of the Liberal party in the last ten years has been, in the first place, a policy of country development, and 80 per cent. of the money borrowed in that period 'has been spent QJn country inter­ests. Whe,reas we have developed coun­try utilities at the expense of the general taxpayer, we have made the inhabitants of the cities provide their own utilities ,out of rates on their own properties. That is to say, the city dweller pays .not only his own taxes, but bears a share of the taxes of the country dweller. More­over, the money which is raised on the credit of the city dweller is mainly spent in the country districts. In addition to the capital money spent in the country, which, of course, has to be returned, at least £1,000,000 per annum has been spent by Liberal Governments ol1t of the general revenue in the last ten years in assisting country industries and interests. Another phase of Liberal policy has been the development of coun­try utilities, including water supply, roads, and various other things. That has been done with very great success, and has resulted in the settlement of people 'and an enormous amount of wealth for the country districts. In the third place, ·our policy has assisted country interests

Mr, Eggleston.

because of the fact that when country in­dustries have been in d.istress, a,rrange­ments have been made to finance them. In certain cases, especially during the war in connexion with the wheat industry and other indus­tries, Pools were formed to enable them to tide over their periods of distress .. It cannot be said that the wheat industry is distressed at the present time. In my opinion, there is no industry that is· more financial at present, and no industry that has less to fear from the depredations or eirploitations, whichever you choose to call them, of other sections of the com­munity. If any industry should be able to stand on its own, it is the wheat in­dustry at the present moment, and it is rather a curious fact that at a time when the wheat industry is so prosperous-its prospects were never more bright than at present-the Government should put aside all the other industries whose case is just as urgent, and help th.e industry that is strong. A.ll the other industries are left out in the cold.

Mr. 8LATER.-We are acting at the particular request of those engaged in the wheat industry.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The honorable member may regard that as an argument, but I do not consider it to be one.. The honorable member says that, because people who are financially interested want a thing done, that is an argument why it should be done. Of course, it is an arg~ment, according to the political tactICS of the honorable gentleman's party.' The Minister of A.griculture set an example by quoting Scripture, and I shall quote another text, "To him that hath shall be given." To him that hath votes will be given all the advan­tage. There are other industr~ that need assistance to a far greater extent than the wheat industry, but to which there is no proposal wha,te,ver to give assistance. There are the butter industry and the dried fruits industry. The posi­tion of t.he dried fruits industry is far more difficult than that of the wheat in­dustry, but there is no suggestion that it is going to be given any 'assistance.

Mr. HOGAN.-We are gQJing up to Mildura next week toO meet the' growers to see wha,t can be done. .

Mr. EGGLEST'ON.-'Vhe,!'!e are the Government going to stOoP l and why should they stop anywhere if the arguments fOor

Wheat ~1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 643

other Pools aJ.·el far stronge1r t.han the arguments for a wheat Pool ~ When we arrive at the condition that all these

. things are controiled by Pools-by Go­vernmen t ma,r ketinlg organiza;t.ions--thel whole of the business capacity of die community will be dest.royed, and nobody in the Sta,te will know anything about marketing at all.

Mr. VVE,l'TENHALL.-That is not, borne out by experience. The whe,at-growers know more about the marketing of their wheat now tha,n thev would have learnt in a thousand years oJ without the Pool.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I should be glad to think that, but I differ entirely from the honorable member in that regard. As a matter of fact, I think it will be found that the margin between the amount the wheat-gro1wer receives fOt" hll:! crop and the amount at which the wheat is so,ld in London is wider now, and has been wider through the period of the Pools, than it was before the war. It is very diffic:ult to get the figures in that regard, but I worked them out and I found that fOlr a period of years the difference between the London price and the Australian price was only Is. per bushel, and of that 9d. went in freight. Since the pooling system was established the ma,rgin has been far greater than that. Last year it was Is. 2d.

1\1:r. WEAVER.-Because the freights were higher.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-That was not the reason. The margin last yea,r was ] s. 2d. per bushel, but the freight ,vas less than Is. In tho year before the margin was fOItill greater. Of course, honorable mem­bers on the other (the Ministerial) side of the House have their de,finitio'll of liberty. We heard the honorable mem­ber for Esseudon the other day define liberty as the right of a man to do what the majority of the people would let him do. I am very glad to get that classical defini tion of the term "liberty," beca USI?

it is different from the definition of the term which the Liberal party stands for. \Vhen the Labour party weTe in a min­ority that was a definition o,f liberty that they abhon-ed, but when they think that in combination with other parties they ha~ a majority they adopt a definition of liberty that would have pre­vented their part.y from ever rising in the political a,rena. I say that minorities ha,ve rights, and the Liberal pa,rty throughout its history has adopted the

theoTY of the rights of minorities, which this Parliament can only upset at its peril.

Mr. SLATER.-Are you serious about tha.t ~

lVlr. EGGLESTON. - I am quite serious.

Mr. SLATER.-What about the Legis­lative C'ouncil1

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I say that this Pool is not only a conscrip­tion of the property o.f indi­viduals' fo.r no public purpose, but that it is in the interests of only a very small section of the community. It is ((uite against Liberal policy. 1\10re than that, it is quite against efficiency and jus­tice as regards all sections of the com­munity. It means that the destination of a large section of the ,vealth of the com­munity is to be determined, not by econo­mic considerations, not by considerations of even justice, but by considerations of political expediency. With the clauses eo~tained in this Bill, all the dealings in co.nnexion with this Pool will be deter­mined by the party in power. The intro­duction of the Pool is not determined by the needs of any class, nor by the desire to do justice, but by the political exigen­cies of the party in power. The Bill leaves, as it must leave, to the Govern­ment the power to control an organization which is created by the compulsion of the State, and it will use that power ac­cording 'to po.litical exigencies. That is a thing abhorrent to Liberal principles, be­e'ause it makes those vast interests a play­thing of politics. No section of the com­munity ,,,hose interests are at stake can afford that. When you, get a Government v.·ith power to take action which vitally affects large sections of the community, then you have a position in which, by a ukase, by an or.der of the Governor in Council, all sections of the people de­pendent on that Order have their interests in jeopardy, because snch action is deter­mined, not by the justice of the case, not by the economic interests of the whole State, but by_the political exigencies of the party in power. There is another side. of the matter altogether, and that is that the party that has to exercise these powers has put itself in a very difficult and dan­gerous position. I do not envy the Minis­ter who has to exercise fhe powers under this measure,because it will set him

Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

against all sections of the ·people which arp. interested in it. He must look after the interests either of the consumers or of the State generally, or of the wheat­grower~. . To satisfy all i~ an impossi­Lility. Any Minister who attempts to administer the powers under this measure will be taking on a dangerous and a pre­carious task. I do not care whether the Bill passes or not, serious though I think the objections to it are, 18cause I ·believe that it will set by the ears all the parties interested in the marketing and. distribu­t.ion of wheat. It will destroy the entente cordiale which has existed between the Farmers Union and the Labour party. It will destroy any pretentions that the IJabour party have had to secure the far­me.rs' votes. They will be placing themselves III an impossible posi-tion i11 trying to exercise im-partially, and for the benefit of the community, the powers that they will have to take on themselves under this Bill. I do not fear the effect of this measure in the future. Looking ahead, I say that if the measure passes into an Act it. will be the best thing for the Liberal party, because it will reveal to the farmers what is really involved in a compulsory Pool. It will restrict their libedy of action to such an extent that they will fret under it. It will put the whole of their interests in the charge of five mell, whose only qualification, according to the hOlllOrable member for Lowan, is that they have sweated very much in the produc­tion of wheat. It will also destroy the marketing organization which has existed in this State for many years.

~ir. HOGAN.-They will nc,t manage It. There will be a manager.

l\ir. EGGLESTON.-They will get a man who has graduated in the Public Service, as manager.

lVIr. HOGAN.-It- is hard to tell whom they will get. .

Mr. EGGLESTON .-They will not get a man such as those whose skill has helped to build up the wheat market of Austr~lia, during the last 40 or 50 years. I do not think men who a,re, paid 30s. a sitting are likely to give the manager who is wanted for a busi­ness like, this a salary commensurate with the work. The control of £9,000,000 or £10,000,000 is a matter of exceedingly great difficulty. With the ordinary mar-

keting transactions where you ha,ve the buyer and the seller in opposite camps, where, you have, thousands of minds con­centrated on the subject, and where you' ha.ve informa,tion from aU the, rest of the world playing on those minds, ! say that you aJ.'el like'ly to a,ve,rage a,', better result than when you commit the whoIe of your capital and goods to the control of a, small committee, however efficient irom an ac­countancy point of vielw the manager of the Pool may be. I say, also, tha,t the greater portion of the' push behind this Bill is not thel push of the farme,r but of interested offioials. Those officials ha,ve, a great say in the organization of political paJ:'t.ies. There is also thel push of the co-operative organizations that have be,el! saved financially, to a. large, extent, by the commissions given them out of the hand­ling of wheat. Those co-ope,rative- organi­zations ha,ve, go,t, for handling whea,t, over Id. a bushel. I venture to say that you could ge,t private organizations to do an amount of handling equivalent to that done by the co-operative companies for a far less remuneration. Behind this Bill there are' certain types of middlemen or the, equivalent of middlemen. They are men who are not interelsted and not skilled in the marke,ting of wheat. The push comes from them as much as from the far­mers. I doubt whether thelfe is any strong demand from the fa,rme,rs in favour of this compulsory Pool.

l\1:r. HUGHEs.-The're is a strong de·­mand from the Chamber of Commerce be. hind you.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-There is no such de'mand tha,t I Know of. One of the biggest private' interests behind the, me'a­sure is that of the millers, who can obtain whea,t from the' Pool withorut having to take any financial risk at all.

Mr. HUGHEs.-The- big wheat specu­lators are pushing you.

Mr. EGGLESTON. - The' honorable member is ma,king a stat-ement of whioh he has no prQlof, and if his word and mine are taken in comparison, I think the House will accept mine.

lVlr. HUGHES~-Because you are, an authority on e,verything.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-And the honor­able membe'r is an authority on nothing.

Mr. SLATER.-How ahout the members of the Country party being belhind this Bill1

Mr. EGGLESTON.-It is becausel they are tangled up in their past history.

Wheat [1 Om.'QBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 64i

lVIr. SLATER.-That is an entirely dis­ingenuQus excuse.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The honorable gentleman has no. reason for saying that.

Mr. SLATER.-You know that every member representing a wheat'-grQwing electora,te is in favour of it.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-If they had not given pledges fOol' a compulsory Pool in the, past they would not supPQrt it at this par­ticular juncture, because the interests. of the farmetrs now arc absolutely against the compulsory POQl. Netither the Labour party nor the other party is game to. take a, refetrendum of the farmers of Victoria a.bout a, compulsory Pool at prese1nt. Let us examine the argum,ents adduced in favour of the Bill by the, Minister who in­trOoduced it. I say that the HQuse had a, right to eocpect better arguments in favour of a me,'asure of this drastic cha,racter than were add uoetd by the Minister in his ~peech. The presentation of the case fOol' the Bill, whatever authority it might have from Holy Writ, has no foundation in logic. Why are these parties not in favour of taking a referendum ~

Mr. I-IuGHEs.-YOou know it is im­possible.

:Mr. EQGLESTON.-It could have been taken immediately the present Go­vernment got into po·wer.

Mr. HQGAN.-You would not have acted on their decision if it had been in favour of a compulsory Pool.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I would not; but in my opinion tllere is not a majority of farmers in favour of a Pool of this sort.

Mr. HUGHES.-YOU said just now you knew there was not a majority.

The SPEllliER.-Order! Allow the honorable member to proceed with his speech without interjection.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I said that I he­lieved a large proportion of the wheat­growers were against this compulsory Pool, and I would not be. surprised if a majority was found to· be opposed to it. Interest in the voluntary Pool has diminished so much because wheat­growers think they get a better deal fr0111 those who are trading in the open mar­ket. The idea that the farmers ·will support a compulsory Pool and have con­tracts torn up is aQsolutely ridiculous. We have heard· staternenfs made that the ~;heat-growers are in favour of this Pool, but what evidence has been submitted to support that assertion?

J'Jlr. BAnEy.-Their -representatives In

t.his House are in favour of it. Mr. EGGLESTON.-The members of

the Country party do not represent all the wheat-growing constituencies; but even if they did, the community has the right to say whether it will use its power in favour of a compulsory Pool.

Mr. HQGAN.--I think the platf.orm ot the Farmers Union has a plank in favour of the organized marketing Qf primary products.

"\1.r. EGGLESTON.-It has not beeu proved to this House, at any rate, that t.his Bill is desired by a majority of the wheat-growers. It has been said that this Bill is necessary so that the wheat­grower will get an adequate return fQr his labour. But this Bill is not intended to provide that. The idea is to get for the wheat-grower the top market price. Mr. Holloway, the secretary of the Trades Hall Council, has suggested that the wheat-gro,wer sho.uld get the Wages Board rate for the work he does 0'n his farm. As I understand the evidence given by the honorable :.m.ember for Benalla beior~ the High Cost of Living Commission, wheat during the present season is con-· ~iderably above the cost of production. It is from 25 to 50 per cent. more. On the basis prop:osed by Mr_ H0'llowa.y the far­mer wourd receive less than the market value of his wheat, but if the price went down to 4s. a bushel, he would get more than the actual cost. But this is not a Bill to give to. the wheat-grower full recompense for his labour but to give him the top mar­ket price. So tha,t argument of the Min­ister has no foundation.

Mr. HQGAN.-What I said was that the wheat-grower would receive the full value of his product.

~Ir. EGGLESTON.-That is a differ- . . ent thing. The only member so far who has dealt with this aspect of the matter is the honorable member for Lowan, but although' he gave figures ,as to certain resuffs; ': in m'any _respects he altogether failed to give any ,definite Or tangible evi­dence that the farmer would get less than the value of his product from ordi­nary"'sales. Before this House passes this Bill we shouJd get some evidence Qf that. The statements that have been submitted to this HQuse so far shQuld be tested by evidence before a Select Committee or .a

646 Wheat [A8SE}IBLY.] Mfkrketing Bill.

;Royal Commission. The present Go­v~~ent seems fond of appointing Com­mISSIons.

:Mr. BAILEY.-That would take us well over the whe,at-marketing season.

l\!h. EGGLESTON.-I know that this ~atter could not be the subject of inquiry III that way, but arguments have been submitted, and nOl e,vidence has been a,d­vanced in support of them. If the Minis­ter cannot supply more satisfactory- in­formatiOln, based upon facts, than we -have had so far, the Bill shOluld be' thrown out. It is an insult to the intelligence of the' Rouse to say that the wheat-arower has not been receiving the marRet price when we have no evidence tOl show whether' he has or not. When the forma.tion of the last wheat POiol was under consideration and again on the present occasion, i endeavoured to find evidence with regard to the variation in prices, and I have found that the difference between the Aus­tralian and English prices has been 2d. or .3d. per bushel throughout a long period of years.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-I may tell the, hon­orable member that this Bill has 41 sup­porters.

Mr. EGGLESTON .-The honorable gentleman may regard tha.t as an argu­ment in favour of the Bill, but I do nOlt.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-What about the rights of the majority ~

Mr. EGGLESTON .-1 am asking for the rights of the minOlrity. Nothing is more easily ascertainable for those whOl like to take the trouble to make an in­vestigation than the price of wheat all over the world during a lona

period of time'. There is no economi~ subject with regard to' which more statis­tics are supplied, and any person who has the necessary intelligence to study these statistics can get all the information he desires. It is idle for people in these cir­cumstances to say that wheat-growers have been deceived by speculators and mer­chants in regard to the price of wheat. There is more than one interna.tional bureau which publishes statistics regard­ing the price of wheat from time to time. TIle National Bureau, as constituted in America, is under Government auspices, and the one in Rome is under inter­national auspices. These publica,tions give impartial and reliable evidence regarding prices in the wheat market.

Mr. HOGAN.-Farmer.a have been de­~eived, nevertheless.

1\11'. EGGLESTON.-So it is said but no evidence has ever been advanc~d in this House to prove that statement, and I do not think honorable mem-bers should accept it without full proof being given. The real secret of this phase of the questiOln is that the grower considers himself to have been cheated if he sells wheat at 6s. per bushel, and three' or six months later the market goes up to 6s. 6d. He says the melrchant gets the advantage of that ad.vance. He may in some, instances, or he may not, but on the whole he does not. In the' monthly IStatement published by the National City Bank of New York, this argument is dealt with. Those who have studied this question know that the market starts at a fairly low price· when the American wheat crop! gets on the market, about September. It I'lses gradually until May, when there js a peak price. When the farmer does not get the May price for his sales in J alluary, he thinks that the speculator has all the advantage. This aspect of the matter has been tested over a period of 30 years, and it has been found that the difference between the Sep­tember and the, M]'ay quotations is acc0";lnted for entire,ly by interest and holdmg charges during that period. So th?,t the speCUlator makes practically no­thmg out of the increased price be,tween S~ptemberand M:ay. When a man sells hIs -:vhea.t at ~n early stage in the season, he lS freed trom interest and holding cha,rges.

1\'11'. SLATER.-The honorable member knows that the price of wheat in America is subjected to infiuence by men who " bear" the ma,rke,t.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-That is not so. The honorable, gentleI11an, as an economic studen~, must. know that the price of wheat III AmerIca fiuctuates from different causes from that. As a matter of fact, farmers are themselves just a,s' much

. speculators as othe'r people. lVlr. SLATER.-Farmers in the Middle

West are constantly complaining about the price they receive.

lVIr. EGGLESTON.-They are.on the same inteHectual level as some of the farmers in Victoria.

Mr. BAILEY.-Are you standing up for the open market or for the voluntary Pool?

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 647

• Mr. EGGLESTON.-If there is any

danger, then I stand for the voluntary Pool. It is quite a normal thing for the farmers to co-operate in the handling, of their produce. The ideal condition is a voluntary Pool which prevents specu­lators from getting an advantage and leaves the open market as a corrective to inefficiency in the co-operative Pool. In other words, the open market with a large co-operative Pool is an ideal condition of things. The argument is that the volun­tary Pool cannot carryon. But if it cannot carryon it is not because of the operations of speculators, but because of the disloyalty of some farmers to the prin­ciple of co-operation. It is because the farmers as a body are not loyal to the principle of co-operation that some of the farmers want compulsion, and if they want compulsion they must pay the price for it. There must be control by a dis­intere~ted authority. We cannot have the sole management in the hands of the farmers. If they want the sole manage­ment, then it must be exercised through a voluntary Pool. If they want a com­pulsory Pool, they must submit to Go­vernment control. The consuming inte­rests of the State and other producing interests of the State should not be asked to introduce the principle of compulsion and to allow the farmers to manage and control prices in their own way. The only other argument adduced by t,hel MiD­isterr in charge of the Bill was tha,t the compulsory Pool was intended to prevent speculation. He did suggest that these speculations resulted in the formation of combines, and that those combines de­pressed prices. I admit that that does take place in a great number of cases. But it is very difficult for it to take place in regard to a staple commodity like wheat. The facts about wheat are known to all. The whole world is one vast market. It is practically impossible for anyone to corner the wheat market. There have been some sensational at­tempts to do that, but never, I believe, a successful attempt. If the Minister of Agriculture could prove that speculators did combine to depress the market, then he would have a ve'l'Y good case indeed.

Mr. HOGAN.-They are doing it now.

Mr .. EGGLESTON.-l venture to ~ay ~here has never been a combine of buyers m the Australian wheat market. Now,

if there is no combine-and I assert that there is not-we have the ideal condition for the sellers, that is to say, competition between buyers.

Mr. WARDE.-What do you call an hon­orable understanding between buyers ~

}.III'. EGGLES'TON.-N either this House nor the public of Victoria will as­sume that there has been an honorable understanding between buyers unless some proof of it is put forward.

Mr. WARDE.-Why, Darling himself admi tted, in Adelaide, some years ago that there was such an honorable under­standing.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I understand that that is not the case" or not in any general sense of the term. There was an understanding between buyers that lasted for a 'period of eight months only and then broke down. Operators lnterested in this market are few. They buy for the inter­national market. It is almost impossible in such circumstances for. them to com­bine.

Mr. W:A.RDE.-... If the honorable member for St. Kilda will take the trouble to look up the report presented by a Royal Com­mission on Wheat that was appointed by the South Australian Government a num­ber of years ago, he will find that Mr. Darling himself a:dmitted, on' oath, that there was an honorable understanding be­tween buyers in regard to the wheat market.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I have already admitted that there was an honorabl~ understanding that lasted for eight months. That took place some ten or' twelve years ago, and it was broken up, by Mr. Darling. It would be interesting: if the honorable member for Flemington would himself take the trouble of looking up that report. He might base a speech upon it, and give the· IIouse, the benefit of his information.

Mr. WARDE.-I am tired of reading these reports. We have had the subject: over and over ad nauseu.m. '

Mr. EGGLESTON.-We have asser­tion~, but no evidence. With the excep-' tion of the evidence adduced by the hon­orable member for Lowan, the House has had none.

Mr. BAILEy.-Surely you do uot claim to be giving evidence ~ You 'are only giv­ing assumptions.

648 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] lJ!larketing Bill.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The onus is not on the Opposition to prove the case for the Bill. The Government have to prove the case. So far, the Government have made asser~ions with no evidence, and have imputed motives to people. Now, if there wer,e a combine, and the wheat price were 'depressed to the Australian seller, that would be evidence-evidence that could be proved up to the hilt. As

. a matter of fact, all the evidence I have been able to obtain tends to show that the difference between the Australian price and the English price of wheat is the barest fraction over the freight. If any honorable member has evidence to give on that point, nothing is easier. The evidence can be readily obtained. But no member of the Government, and no member of the Farmers Union party either, has made any attempt to furnish us with that evidence. The honorable member for Lowan did produce some statistics, but he did not complete them, to_ show what the results of the calcula­tions really are.

Mr. HUGHEs.-If the Minister' of Agri­culture can bring forward ·.convincing evidence, will you vote for the Bill ~

. Mr. EGGLESTON.-Yes, I will, if he can prove that there is a combine that is depressing the price to the Australian seller.

Mr. BAILEY.-YOU mean if he will pro­duce evidence that will be convincing to you~

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I am a reason­able man. The honorable gentleman thinks he is going to get rid of specula­tion. But he is not. The farmer is as likely to be victiinized over his wheat scrip as over his wheat. As a matter of fact, the negotiability of the wheat scrip led to a considerable amount of trouble. It was a most extraordinary fact that in 'Some States-I do not think it happened in Victoria-the Stock Exchange knew far more about the contents of the Pools, and the prospects of the Pools, than were ~nown to the wheat-grower himself. The wh~at-grower was more yictimized through his wheat certificates than he was on the ordinary market.

lir. BAILEY.-All primary producers are victimized by agents.

lir. EGGLESTON.-I admit that that is the case in regard to some primary products .. But in the wheat industry it

~ IS not so. The wh~3:t is bought, and every fact concerning it is known. The statistics are absolutely complete. An­other point is that speculators on the Australian wheat market are mostly inter-, national in their dealings. Victorian wheat is merely a fraction of their in­terests. One could not go toone of these international firm8 and find that they had paid a lower parity in Victoria than else­where in the course of their operations.

Mr. HOGAN.-I· know that they have been paying down to 5s. ld. and 58. 2d. for wheat worth 6s. 4-!d. per bushel, '\vithin the last month.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-An article in a circular issued by the National City Bank of New York contains the following note:- .

'fwo-thirds of the wheat crop is marketed by the producer during the first third I)f the crop year-in other words, the wheat is mar­keted in September, October, November, and December of each crop year at a rate four times as fast as the last eight months of the crop year. This chart shows tha.t, notwith­"tanding the heavy marketing in September, October, November, and December of each year, taking 29 years together, the price level for 1 Northern wheat was maintained within about 6 cents of the highest price reached on the average during the month of May in each crop year. The maximum average in­crease ill price for the 29 consecutive crop years mentioned was slightly over 6 cents per bushel, as compared with the heavy crop­moving period. Six cents per bushel would scarcely cover the cost of carrying this wheat even on the farm, interest on the investment, insurance on the gram and granary, and de­preciation in quality' being taken into account. This high level of value of wheat during the heavy crop-moving period, as compared with the remainder of the crop year, is entirely due to the system of future trading in the leading grain exchanges', and this system' pro­duces a price level during the heavy moving periods which could not possibly be secure.d by any system of "orderly marketing" as compared with the last two-thirds of the crop year.

In other words, speculation in that way attracts capital to the industry, and it enables the farmer to get a better early price for his wheat than he could obtain under ordinary circumstances. That that is so has been proved by the experience of the present Pool. If the price of wheat is going to rise the farmer holds, but one does not know what the faU in price may be or what may happen when the next crop is harvested. It has not yet been proved that the wheat-growers are getITng

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] J}la'/"kcti'Jlg Bill. 649

less than the market price for their wheat a t the present time.

;Mr. HOGAN.-They are getting less. Mr. SLATER.-The article from which

you have quoted was not written in the interests of the farmers. Mr~ EGGLESTON.-There is DO

higher authority on the subject than the :~ratiorial Oity Bank of New York. The farmers organizations in America have considered this question of wheat pooling, and have turned down compulsory pool­ing altogether. In his platform, La Follette, who is a candidate for the Pre­sidency, has turned down the State mar­keting of wheat and other produce. The argument has been used by many econo­mic writers that when speculators are operating the farmer gets a better price for his produce. The farmer may hold his wheat, and get a better price by doing so. Another farmer may be compelled to sell his wheat, and may have to take a lower ·price. But these things average themselves out in the long run. If speculators do have a bad influence Oll the market the farmers have their own means of defence. They need not sell to speculators. They can consign their wheat for sale in England. Farmers have frequently tried that, but they have come out on the wrong side. Then they have their co-operative marketing schemes, and the test of these is the willingness of the farmers to support them. If they are not loyal enough to support them they have no right whatever to ask for a com­pulsory Pool. The Prime Minister of the Oommonwealth, Mr; Bruce, in an­nouncing his economic policy recently, said that assistance would be given to co­operative organizations if it wns proved that they were established on an efficient and effective basis. If, on the other hand, 'the farmers do not stand by these organizations, they have no right to come to the State and ask that compulsion should be used to help them. This is not a marketing Bill at all. It is a Bill to destroy the market, and set up in the place of it a distribution scheme. A market is a place where buyers and sellers congregate together, and in the competi­tive biddings there you get the real essen­tials of a market.

Mr. BAILEY.-YOU know that that system was not in vogue in regard to

wheat before the compulsory Pool. Buyers and sellers did not congregate together.

MI'. ·EGGLESTON.-The Oorn Ex,· change in Chicago is a. place of tha.t kind. A very large part of the operating done in the Exchange is canied on by the farmers themselves. This Bill will destroy. any marketing organization that exists in the community, and if the farmers are dissatisfied with it at the end of the year that market will have been scrapped, and the international firms who come here to buy wheat will have gone from the mar­ket. The local firms operating will have had their marketing organizations scrapped also, and their staffs distributed, and everything will have to be started again on a combine basis.

Mr. BAILEY.-You know that the, mar­ket will not collapse.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I think it will collapse. By this Bill we shall be driving out the men who created for us the, most profitable markets. The curious thing is tha,t this is e:xacUy what happened in Russia. When the marketing organiza­tions in Russia were destroyed by a scheme similar in type to this, there was very soon no wheat for ex­port. I have been fearing, as every­body must have feared during the last five or six years, that a Waterloo would come for the Australian wheat farmer when the Russian wheat came again on to the markets of the world. It has not come, and for tha,t we ha,ve to thank the Soviet system. Orga.nization and business control are the salvation of the wheat industry.

l\1r. BAILEY.-The people. of Russia are pro'bably better fed to-day than they were formerly.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The famine in Russia was not caused by climatic con­ditions, 'but by the destruction of the marketing organizations by the Soviets. I do riot accuse any of the farmer members of the Labour party of being Bolsheviks, but I do say tha,t in this Bill we have an e,lement of the So'viet system, which is likely also to have a. destructive effect.

Mr. HOGAN.-Has the honorable mem­ber any knowledge of the" bulling" and " bearing" which were characteristic of the Chicago Oorn Exchange?

650 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill ..

Mr. EGGLESTON.-As a matter of fact, "bulling" is often organized by the farmers themselves, and it averages out very evenly all over the world.

Mr. POLLARD.-Is it on that account that some wheat speculators die million­aires ~

Mr. EGG LESTON .-If they die millionaires it is because of the eno,rmOU5 quantities of wheat they handle, which enables them to overbid the co-opera.tive organiza tions.

lVlr. OMAN.-More men have been ruined by buying and selling whea,t than ha ve made fort.unes. .

Mr. EGGLESTON.-Yes. 'Many men have be,en ruined. Mr. Bell, for in­stance, has gone out of the wheat busi­ness. If it was such a. good thing, why did he not stay in it, 1

Mr. POU~ARD:-He had made enough. Mr. EGGLESTON.-Ilad he? I

understand he made his biggest profits in the time of the compulsory Pool during the war. I now come to another phase of the Bill which I think is very important indeed. The Government comes in as a dis­tributer of wheat. It buys all the wheat or uses its power to make all the wheat go to the Board. It nullifies contracts 'and .pre­vents the railways being used to cart Vic­torian wiheat into oth,er States, or for other parties than the Board. It does that for the purpose of helping, as it thinks, the farmers. Is it going to allow the Board to be managed by the farmers themselves? Is it not going to secure control of this vast amQunt of property which, as it has been bought 'by the Wlheat Board, is as much the property of the com­munity as of the wheat-growers. The Ohief Secretary sat with me all, the Gafl Committee, and he said that public utili­ties should be controlled by public autho­rities. We recommended very drastic legislation for the control of the gas utility. In the present case all the wheat in the State will practically ·be purchased by the State. iH allY rate, a very large advance will be made by the iState on it. How is that wheat going to be controlled? Is there going to be a vast corner engi­neered by the State? What devices are contained in the Bill to ensure that that wealth, a very large proportion of which will be 'advanced in cash, will be con­trolled in such a way that the people of the State will not be held up by 20,000

or 30,000 wheat farmers? I say 'that the­devices contained in the Bill for that pur­pose are very inadequate.' We are told that there will be two Government nomi-· nees on the Board. In the first place, the appointment of those persons will be de­termined to a very large extent by political considerations. That will ·almost neces­sarily be the case. In the second place, the representatives of the Government will be in a minority, and there is no pro­vision for an independent chairman. My objections to this part of the Bill might becanc~lled to some extent if there were· to be an independent chairman, but what i's the use of a minority when it is arrayed. against a compact m'ajority ~ If I wanted to put an enemy of mine in an awkward position I would put him on a oommit­tee. where he would be in a minority. There is no more uncomfortable 'position than being in a minority on a committee when there is a com,pact majority. There is no way by wthich you can harmonize the interests of buyer and seller in a case like this. The wheat-growers who are in favour of the Bill are on the horIl,s of a dilemma. They must either give up· compulsion, or, if they have compulsion, they must accept control by an indepen­dent authority. Otherwise the Pool will be a mere corner, and this House, at any rate accorrding to Liberal principles, can­not use the compulsory powers of the State to give the control of a vast com-

. modity produced out of the lands of the State entirely into the hands of persons who are interested on one side. That is can trary to Liberal principles, and it is contrary to good 'government, because it places in the hands of a section of the community the power to hold up the rest of the community. I thought that the Labour party were 'against combines, but, in this case, they are creating the biggest combine that has ever been created in the history of Victoria. It is very s,ignifi­cant that, although the Labour pla~form in the past contained planks against combines, at the last election the­only platform that contained any plank against them was that of the Liberal party. A Pool that was no,t managed by the farmers, and that had no power to dis-. criminatel against the> community, would be of no use to the fa.rmers. They would only ge,t the market price fo.r the,ir wheat, a.nd they could get tha.t under ordinary

Wheat (1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 651

conditions. A Pool that is managed by an independent authority will be no good to them. On the other hand, the State has no right to use; its compulsory powers to crela.te a corner in whea,t. It has no right, by the, exercise of its compulsory powers, to concentrate aU the whea,t into the hands of one body, and to jeopardize the rights of thel consumers, the rights of the dissentient whe,at-growelrs, and the rights of the growers Q>f other primary products. There is nothing in the, Bill that gives the State the power of proper control.

Mr. POLLARD.-Is theTe anything under the present system to give the State the power of proper control ~

Mr. EGGLESTON .-N 0; but there js no cQ>mpulsory power under present COll­

ditions. What price arel the farmeTs pay­ing for the use of the compulsQ>ry powers of the Sta,te 1 Nothing. They are given a majority on the Board, and in the Bill there is no propeil' device to protect thel interests of the consumers, and nQ>ne to protect the interests O'f the community as a. whole,.

Mr. SLATER.-There is a provision in . the Bill taken from your own measure.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-l'he lack of infor­ma,tion on the part of the Attorney-Gene­ral is absolutelly astounaing. If the hon­f>rablel gentleman had any recollection whatever he would know that that pro­vision was not the clause I proposed when the. Victorian Wheat-growers' Corporation Act was under consideration. I intend to' move some,thing on the lines I then moved. What I proposed was t.hat any peirson could go to the Pool and, by tendering the. market price, get delivelry of his reasonable requirements, and that if the Pool would not sell to him he could go to a Court, and the Court could de1te,rmine the marke,t price according tOo overse'as parity. Be­f!a use I could not get support from the &ther side of the House I had to drop m)' clause, and the honorable membe'r for Castlemain€J, who was then Premier, put in the preGent provision.

Mr. SLATER.-Which you sup~orted. Mr. EGGLESTON.-I· had to support

it because it was better than nothing. When what I had suggest.ed would occur did occur, and a higher price than ove,r­seas parity was beling charged fQ>r whe·at for local consumptian, I asked the Go­vernmen t of the, day to put t.ha,t provision into operation, and they would not because of political considerations. The price then

being charged locally was 5d. Oor 6d. a bushel above London parity, but if the existence, of a, Government depends on the support of certain sections of the House, it is no,t going to commit political suicide by putting a vague and indefinite section like that into opera,tion. At any rate t.here is the fundamental objec­tion that this means allowing the interests of vast sections of the community to be determined by political considerations and not by economic and fair considerations. The· lot of t,he Minister who has to administer the pro'vision in question is very unenviable. No man, I think, who has any considera­tion for his peace of mind would attempt t.o administer such a provision. The clause in the Bill is not sa,tisfactory. It can only be, eX€lrcised according to the whim or the political interests of the Go­vernment of the, day. My suggestion was tha.t a person could go to the Pool and say, "The fair price of whea,t to-day is 68. a bushel.' Here is 6s. a bushel in cash; give me the wheat I want." I sug­gested tha,t if the P-ool would not give it to him he should have the right to go to the, Court and sue thel Pool fOIl' non-deli· very Oof the wheat. That is my sugges­tiO'll, and I t.hink it is a pro·per suggestion.

The SPEAKER.-The honorable mem­ber has e·xceeded his time.

Mr. EGGLESTON .-All I wish to say is that I am going to move that that clause be strengthened so. that the fair market price tha.t the Pool can charge should be more cl€'arly defined.

1\1r. BAILEY.-As long as you can cripple the Bill, it will be all right.

Mr. EGGL.ESTON. - My original amendment was very e.}aborate, and I may ,try to simplify it, but those will be the lines on which I shall move,.

Dr. ARGYLE.-My attitude towards this Bill is gOoverned, nOot by the financial aspect of the case, but by the fact that it is against the principles for wh~ch I stand to compel a man to hand over his property to somebody else. In other words, thia is an instalment of Socialism, and I oppo~e the measure for exactly the same reasons as I opposed the proposal to· allow municipal t.rading in milk. In this case it is prOoposed to do. something worse than that. The· proposal is to make a man, against his will, sell certain pro­perty in a direction or at a price which he may not apprQlVe. It goes even further than that, because it absolutely prQ>hibits

652 Wheat .. [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

any other citizen in the community from buying what is one of the main foodstuffs of the people. As the hDnorable member for Hampden said, it is plain and un­diluted· Socialism. I . stand, and always will stand, against modern SO'cialism ill any shape Dr fDrm-the sort of Socialism that this Bill stands for.

MOr. POLLARD.-Did you oppose the Morwell scheme 1

Dr. ARGYLE.-That is a totally dif­ferent proposition.

Mr. POLLARD.-It is State enterprise. Dr. ARGYLE.-I did not say that I

was against State enterprise. What I said was tha.t I was against modern Socialism of this sort,. Now, mO'dern Socialism is defined by different people in various ways. It is a difficult thing '.:0 know what a man means when he talks about Socialism. As I say, there are vari­ous definition'3 of what SO'cialism is-more or less satisfactory. I will tell honorable member::! one of the best I have heard. Many ye,ars a,go I heard a speaker say that, in his opinion, Socialism was an attempt to create a,n unselfish community aut of a number of selfish units. That is the snag that we are all up against in dealing with this great problem.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-A witty French­man defined it as that condition of things which t,ried to prevent one portion O'f the people dying from starvation while an­other was dying from indigestion.

Dr. ARGYLE.-I can give the honor­able gentleman another definition which is even better than that. It is a definition given by a man who is unknown, but whose knowledge of parli~mentary life and politicians in t.he Old World is vast indeed. I allude to the man who writes under the title of "The Gentleman with a Duster." No· doubt many honorable members have· read some of his works. He says-

Modern' socialism is a mushroom forced by Russian atheism on the dunghill of German economics . . . the poisonous vodka with which international enthusiasts .stimulate their blissful vision of a world proletariat in chains to a world bureaucracy.

lVlr. PRENDERGAST.-If that is. the ·best he can do, he should remain unknown.

Dr. ARGYLE.-WeU, the genf,leman's writings speak for themselves. I object to any interference with the .freedom of the individual so long as that freedom does not inflict any ha,rm upon his feUow­citizens. That is where I stand. When a man's freedom begin! to endanger the life,

property, and welfare of his fellow-citizens I object to it.

Mr. TUNNEoLIFlm.-That is exactly w here we stand.

Dr. ARGYLE . .:....-Not at all. The honorable gentleman may say his party stand there, but their acts do not support their theories.

:Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-That is a matter of opinion.

Dr. ARGYLE.-Obviously the honor­able gentleman and myself differ in our opinions, or we would not be on different sides of the House. A great politician, Sir Douglas Hogg, sa,;ys-

Personal liberty is clearly incompatible with Socialism; the one condition which renders· the socialistic theory workable is the condition of mass slavery; every man must be the un­questioning and soulless servant of a tyrannical government. Economically absurd, Socialism is· morally destructive.

Coming to the questions that are raised by this particular measure, I do not pro­pose to discuss in detail thE: origin and being of compulsory wheat Pools in Vio­toria. It is frequently pointed out that the party now sitting on this (the Opposi-' tion) side of the House was in favour of a whe.at Pool under war conditions. I admit that. However, the conditions '\Thich actuated our party in establishing a compulsory Pool during the war were very different from those which exist now. Then the welfare of the whole State was in danger; the food supply of the Em­pire was in danger, and the whole in­clustry of wheat-growing in Victoria was seriously in danger, for the reason that it was not possible to get wheat to the markets overseas. Oonsequently, some­thing had to be done to save the wheat­grower from the ruin that faced him.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-SO you tried a bit , of Socia~ism.

Dr. ARGYLE.-In 'war time much was done~ that. savours of Socialism, beoau.se the safety of the Stat'e was at stake. The honorable gentleman surely will. not try to make me . beEelve tha.t the State:, thel whelat-grower, or the industry, is in

. (langer to-day. Mr. HOGAN.-Why did you adopt

Socialism in time of war ~ Dr. ARGYLE.-For the safety of the

State. 'fro HOGAN.-It was because you knew

that it was the best method.

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 653

Dr. ARGYLE.-N othing of the sort. The reason was that we had the .wheat, but there was no means of getting a mone­tary return to enable the owners to live.

:Mr. MORLEy.-There were no boats available.

Dr. ARGYLE.-That is so. All over the State wheat was accumulating in large piles at railway sidings. Afterwards it was brought down to the sea-board. There was no possibility of getting shipping to take the wheat away, and there was no money for the farmer to live on. Surely it can­not. bei called Socialism when the Govern­ment stepped in and said to the wheat­growers: "Against the security of this wheat, which is not likely to deteriorate to any extent, we will advance enough money to meet your obligations, so that the State may carryon." To say that is anything like the Socialism provided for in this Bill is an utter absurdity. It was the manifest duty of the State tQl protect itself at that time by financing people who were in this awkward predica­ment through no fault of the,ir Q1wn.

Mr. HOGAN.-The PQlol did nQlt build any boats.

Dr. ARGYLE.-I know it did not, but the POQlI advanced money against the security of the wheat until such time as it could be, shipped abroad. In this way it saved the situation until boats were available. I am giving facts to the House that cannot be disputed.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-They are mere sta.tements.

Dr. ARGYLE.-They are absQllute facts, and every man in this House knows that that is so. This particular Bill has not been asked for. There has been no clamour for it on the part o,f the grQlwer. There is, hQlwever, one interest that js specially concerned with the intrQlduction Q1f this Bill. The cOl-operative companies want to ha,ve a share in the handling of the wheat.

Mr. POLLARD.-It has been proved tha.t their management is less costly than that of the ordina,ry brokers.

Dr. ARGYLE.-That is not a· fact. It is just like many Q1f the honorable mem­ber's statements. I should be glad if he will make a speech on t.he subject. He contents himseH with interrupting other speakers, and he might give us some fa,cts by way of a speech.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-If you are giving us all the facts there will be none left for him to supply.

[341

Dr. ARGYLE.-All he does is to in­terjeot. I want him to make a speech. The statement that pooling is an economic method is very much open to dispute. There are too many people interested in a system of that smt. The.re a·re the overhead charges, which increase COOl­

siderably by this method. The're are buyers' expenses. Co-operative. com­panies have to be appointed as receiving agents, and chartering broke'rs ha,ve to be engaged; selling brokers ha,ve also to be employed, and then there is· the arrangement with the banks for financing the POOlI. By t.he way, I admit that the expenses of the Board will not' be very heavy, judging by the pro'posaJs in tho: Bill.

1\fr. HOGAN.-I e,xpect that the Board: will appoint a capable manager, and we~ may ha.ve to pay him a high salary.

Dr. ARGYLE.-The overhead chargeS' will increase in the way I have indicated, but they are not so great without a. Pool.

]\Ilr. T'UNNECLIFFE. - Which of the charges will not be made without a Pool 1 In the open market there are brokers' charges, bankers' charges, and managerial expenses.

Dr. ARGYLE.-There are many cha.rges which have not to be taken into account underr the opetll ma;rketing sys­tem. Co-operative companies will come in under the pooling system.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Only as brokers or buyers. .

Dr. ARGYLE.-Co-operative com-panies a;re managers a.t the present time, and the Government now prop'Ose to have other managers over them. Considerable opposition was shown to tne statement made by the honorable member for St. Kilda, that the Russian method of hand­ling foodstuffs resulted in famine. It i:i very well known that the 1922 famin~ was the result of So,viet methods. There is no doubt at all about that. Those methods ultimately drove Russian fa.r­mers out of wheat-grolWing. They said they did not propose to grorw wheat simply with the objeot of ·supplying cheap bread to city consumers.

Mr. HOGAN.-That is only a statement. Dr. ARGYLE.-I admit that it would

be difficult for me to prove it unless I went to Russia" but it would be equaIl) diffioult for the honorahle gentleman to prove that I am wrong.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-It is no URe

making statements unless you a.re pre­pared to prove them

654 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

Dr. ARGYLE.-Does the honorable gentleman ne,ver make statements unless he is prepared to pro,ve them 1

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Never. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Satan re­

prOlving sin. Mr. HOGAN.-There is one item that

will not come into operation under a compu.lsory wheat POOlI, and that is the profit made. in the open marke,t.

Dr. ARGYLE.-Are those profits so enormous ~ The honorable member fOir Hampden showed that one penny per bushel, extending Olver a long pe;riod, reo suIted in £1,000,000 be!ing distributed as profit amongst a number of people.

Mr. HOGAN.-The voluntary Pool paid 4d. per bushel.

Dr. ARGYLE.-That also is a ma,tter in dispute.

Mr. BAILEY.-When wheat-growers put their grain into the Pool they will hav! the benelfit of the increase in weight'.

Dr. ARGYLE,-I hOild no brief for any particular portion of this trade, but I do hold a brie.f for the consume,r. 1 am here as a, representahve of the con· sumer, and I see no proposals which are put forward in his intere&ts.

Mr. O'AIN.-YOU want mor:e: Russian methods ~

Dr. AR.GYLE.-No; but the honor­able gentleman is asking this House to believe that the Government is going to increase the return to the grower and reduce the cost to the consumer in the price of bread.

Mr. HOGAN.-That is it exactly. Dr. ARGYLE.-How are you going to

do that ~ Mr. HOGAN.-By !organization, instead

of chaos. Dr. ARGYLE,.-We know that organi­

zation undertaken in other e,tates by those who hold the same political views as the honorable gentleman has resulted in the losS) of several million pounds to the tax­payers.

Mr. BAILEY.-YOU cannot prove that. Dr. ARGYLE.-It does not want any

proof. It is a simple fact, shown in official docum,ents.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-T'he reduction in t.he price of meat in Queensland has saved the CO!l1sumer ,£3,000,000.

Dr. ARGYLE.-Quite so; but what has been the loss on the stations ~

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-If the loss has a,mounted to £200,000 or £300,000 there has been a saving of £3,000,000 in the price of meat to the consumer.

Dr. ARGlYLE.-Nothing of the sort. They made a small profit in the retail shops. T'he Government is proposing to -use force to get results.

Mr. HOGAN.-Oh, no! Dr. ARGYLE.-A compulsory wheat

Pool means force. Mr. PRENDERGAST. - So does the

B.M.A. A man cann~ot get a living un­less he belongs to it.

Dr. ARGYLE.-That is the same old argument. Members sitting on the Ministerial side of the House are about the worst losers I ever came across.

Mr. PRENDE,RGAST.-We are winning all the time.

Dr. ARGYLE.-I have in my hand a copy of a let.ter which contains, in m)T opini~on, some of the best arguments against this particular Pool th~t I have read. It may help some members sitting on the back benches on the Ministerial side of the I-louse in that it is not anony­mous. It is signed "T. 0'. Brennan," and gives some interesting arguments.

Mr. H.oGAN.-He lost his deposit when he iopposed us.

Dr. ARGYLE .-T'hat may account for his opposition. However, some of the arguments he advances are of the utmost importance.

Mr. HOGAN.-He knows more about liost deposits than the marketing of wheat.

Dr. ARGYLE.-If the honorable gentleman could write as good a letter as this I would ha v:e more confidence in him. He says-

This Bill is not only directed against the wheat-growers, but is directed against every­body, for everybody is forbidden to buy wheat except from the Pool. . . . The Bill is the assertion of a principle which, carried to its logical conclusion~and if it is assented to, it will be carried to its logical conclusion-means the end of the rights of property and of personal liberty.

Mr. POLLARD.-Was he not in favour of conscripting life ~

Dr. ARGYLE.-If the honio,rable mem­ber who has just interjected had as much brains as the writer of this letter he would be able to do something.

Mr. POLLARD.-I have just as much brains as you.

Dr. ARGYLE.-The honorable mem­ber might have more. I would not set myself up against him. The let.ter goes on to say-

Let there be no doubt about it; the proposals in this Bill, since they involve the dispos-

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 655

session of the rightful owner by force of law, are, in principle, legalised robbery.

Again he says-The danger of an overpowering State riding

roughshod over its citizens is concealed in fine-sounding phrases and pseudo-economics, but the effect is the same. Mr. Hogan is entitled to bear the burden of as many other people as he chooses, but he entirely mis­conceives the purposes of government when, wrapping his roughshod proposals in language of maudlin sentimentality, he assumes to take from one set of people what is theirs, in order, in his cheap benevolence, to give it to others.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-There are m~ny words, but little argument in the letter from which you are reading.

Dr. ARGYLE. - The argument is there. I will quote one further passage from the letter-

It will be an astonishing thing if any mem­ber outside the' ranks of Labour allows himself to be tricked by this crude mixture of political impudence and political bribery. The patent appeal to the cupidity of the country elector Rhould be resented for the insult that it is.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-Fancy quoting that stuff !

Dr. ARGYLE.-I am well aware that the. Premier dnes not like it.

. Mr. HOGAN.-It will not add to the gaiety af na.tions.

Dr. ARGYLE,.-It was not read with' that intention. The statement was made by some country members, and also by a. l\IIiniste,rial member, that, the Morwell brown coal scheme was a socialistio enter­prise, similar to the present proposal. I deny that statement absolutely.

Mr. TUNNEcLIFFE.-Naturally! Mr. POLLARD.-I said that the Morwell

scheme was socialistic, but I did not say that it was similar to this proposal.

Dr. ARGYLE .-The Morwell brown coal deposit is an asset of the State, and it is only reasonable that a public utility such as that should be controlled by the State Government in order that the best use may be made of an asset on its own property.

l\1r. CAIN.-Do you think electricity is more necessary to the p~ople than bread 7

Dr. ARGYLE..-I do not see the point of the argument.

Mr. CAIN.-Electricity is a public utility. Bread is at least a public necessity.

Dr. ARGYLE.-Large numbers af people are engaged in the manufacture of bread. If the Government followed their argument to its logical conclusion they would tell us that everything in the

8tate belongs to the State, including ourselves. I have the strongest admira­tion for the Morwell brown coal scheme. At Morwell we have one 10'£ the greatest efforts ever made by any Government to improve the welfare of the people.

Mr. POLLARD.-It -\vill stop private enterprise in the generation of electricity; it will have a monopoly 10'£ the electricity supply in Victoria.

Dr. ARGYLE.-With the result that thousands of people will be employed fram c,ne end 0'£ the State to the other­people who are not employed to-day. The­energy will not be supplied as cheaply as we had hoped, but at all events it will be supplied at a reasonable ra,te:. We shaH ha ve unlimited electrical power. It is going to mean unlimited activity in every branch ~of industry throughout Victoria. It is obviously a national undertaking. 'Vh y do not l\1inisterial mem bers go further, and grow the wheat as well as market it 7 Why dOo the Government not comlJ].1~andeer the whole of the wheat­growing lands and grow the wheat them­selves ~ I suppose they will do so eventu­any if they get the chance .

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-The people who read your speech to-morrow will not be abl~ tOo gather from it whether you are a Socialist or anti-Socialist.

Dr. ARGYLE.-It may be thought I am all things to all men. I disappr:ove of the Bill, and shall vote against the second reading. From what has been stated by the Leader of the Farmers Union party I assume that the second reading will be agreed tOo. In that event the Leader of the Farm.ers Union party intends tOo move certain amendmjents with which I wholly disagree. With his proposed amendment that the Board of Manage­ment be practically in the hands of the growers I disagree absolutely. I prefer the Government's proposal to that.

Mr. CAIN.-There is more Socialism in it.

Dr. ARGYLE.-At .all events it is not g:oling to hand over to a big combine the food af the people. That is what the proposal emanating from the F'armers Union party would mean. The Govern­ment proposal is wrong, but their's is a stage worse.

Mr. BAILEY.-You will Vlo·te against both praposals-that submitted by the Government and that which will be sub­mitted by the Farmers Union party.

656 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

Dr. ARG.YLE.-It is not possible to do that.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.~' T'he honorable member for Toorak must fall Ion one side or the other.

Dr. ARGfYL,E.-All I have to say in conclusion is that I disapprove of the pro­pooal to' hand over to the prO'posed BO'ard complete power as suggested by the honor­able membHr fall' Rodney's proposed amendment.. Is seems t()l me tha,t if this Bill is to pass at ,all, then the control of t,his vast amount of propHrty, involving +:he people's food, should remain in the bands of the Government.

Major BAIRD.--I do not intend to cast a silent vote on this measure. I feel that the Bill is one that should be sub­jected ·to a thlorough examination before it is allowed to go on to the statute-book. The matter is a very serious one, deserv­ing of very weighty consideration. I do not say that I am prepared tOI·give it that. weighty consideration: I come from a farming stock, at any rat~, although I am not engaged in that pursuit myself. The proposed change is a weighty one from the wheat-growers' point of view. I loppose it principally because I think it will not be in the interests of the farmers themselves that this Bill should pass. Compulsory pooling to-day is yery different to what it was during war time. During the war-in the absence of a com­pulsory wheat Pool-huge quantities of wheat would have rotted. Home of the wheat did rot even as things were. F'or­tunately the wheat was taken over and controlled by a Government Board.

Mr. BAILEY.-The agents could not carryon.

Major BAIRD.-That is so. The wheat had to be kept from one year to another, and it accumulated in vast quantities.

"Mi .. PRENDERGAsT.-And the ships to carry It had to be taken from the ship­owners.

. Major BAIRD.-In the year to which I refer Victoria had, I think, a 6?,OOO,OOO-bushel crop, and it was impos­SIble to market the wheat under ordinary conditions. 'That was not because of the failure of the marketing facility, but be-

. cause we had no means of transport. Ships were not a,vailable and they had to be commandeered by the British Govern­ment. Individuals could not, of course, appr()lach the Government and ask it to send ships to take away wheat.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-Mr. Bonar Law said that the huge pronts made by ship­ping companies during the war were a scandal.

Major BAIRD.-That is not the point with which I am dealing. What an in­dividual could not do, the Government could do, and the duty devolved on the Commonwealth Government. They had been sending men to the other side of the world to nght the battles of the Empire, and when the Commonwealth asked that ships should be sent here to take away our wheat the request was one that the British Government could not well have refused. In the circumstances then exist­ing it became ·necessary for the Common­wealth Government to take entire control of the export of wheat, and, as they had made big advances on the wheat they had accumulated, they were entitled to go to the British Government and ask for their assistance in the matter.

Mr. WARDE.-The British Government bought the wheat, and sent ships here to take it away.

Major B.AIRD.-Yes, they were prac-­tically the only buyer.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-Everything else was ill the same position at that time, and the British Government had to con­trol all the industries of the country. Private enterprise was unequal to the task.

Major BAIRD.-I do not dispute that. What I say is that the circumstances are very different now from what they were then.

:!!th. PRENDERGAST.-YOU want to go back to the old methods which failed in a time of crisis.

Major BAIRD.-It is only once in a century that we get a crisis of the kind.

Mr. W ARDE.-Private enterprise had to be organized in the Old Country, and all work done under' Government control.

Major BAIRD.;-It must be remem­bered that a great many of the captains of industry went to the Front. Weare not confronted now with a crisis like that of 1915.

Mr. BAILEY.~The point is that the wheat-growers having tasted the benefits of a wheat Pool ask for more.

Major BAIRD.-Will you take a plebiscite of the wheat-growers on the subject? I would be prepared to abide by the result.

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 657

MI'. HOGAN.-A plebiscite was taken in 1921, and you refused 'then to abide by the result.

Major BAIRD.-I have said I would be prepared to abide by the result of a plebi6cite taken on this Bill.. If the Government are sure tha.t t;p.e wheat­growers are in fa.vour of a compul­sory wheat Pool they should h~ve no hesitation in seeking an expresSIOn of opinion from them. I am sure the Go­vernment does not want to foist on the farmers something they do not desire.

Mr. BAILEY.-Honorable members of this House are supposed to be able to yoice the opinions of their constituents.

:Major BAIRD. - The Government should accept the ~hallenge that has been thrown out to them, and take a plebiscite of the wheat,.growers.~f the~ did so~ I think they would be dIsappOlnted wIth the result. I say again that the circum­stances of to-day are entirely different from the circumstances existing at the time of the establishment of the compul­sory wheat' Pool. If they had not had that Pool the farmers might not have got ls. a bushel for their wheat. If the Pool now proposed is established, I venture to say they will lose ls. a bushel.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-The 'agents will lose.

J\1a,jor BAIRD .-N 0, the wheat-growers. I am not m Oil' 80 concerned ahout the uO'ents than is the honorable member. In ]~y opi,nion the wheat-growers will be the losers by this Bill. I should say that ""heat will be dear in the early part of next year. If the wheat-growe~s had a free market they could sell theIr wheat at any time, and at the highest prices offering. If there is a compulsory Pool they will not be able to do so. .

Mr. BAILEY.-The longer wheat IS kept the heavier it becomes, and that increase in weight will, under the Pool, belong to the farmers, and not to the agents.

Majorr BAIRD.-I do nOit dispute that, but still the increase on the 40,000,000 bushels that will probably go through the Pool, if it is brought into operation, would be very small, and a loss of a few pence per bushel would wipe the gain out al­together. It has been said that it would be impossible for the merchants to nnance the coming wheat harvest if there were an open market. We have been told that there is £6,000,000 available for the

financing of the wheat crop, and I think that £6,000,000 would go just ,as far in financing the merchants who would pur­chase in an open market as in financing 1f.he Pool. Probably it would go a good deal further. Many of the merchants are big operators, and they would bring all their own resonrces to bear, as well as the £6,000,000 the banks have for the pur­pose. Many of them are weal thy men, and all their resources and experience would be available in connexion with the disposal of the wheat if there were an open market. With a Pool we shall not get that.

Mr. BAILEY.-YOU know {something ,a·bout their trading arrangements; and what they will offer for the wheat.

Major BAIRD.-I am not a seller of wheat, but probably their trading ar­rangements are different from what the honorable gentleman would like to make out. The next reason for which I oppose the Bill is that it is a serious interference with a man's freedom to enter into a con­tract in connexion with his own property. It may be said that a man has no right to make a contract that is injurious to the State, or possibly to any portion of the State, but when a man is dealing with his ow~ property, produced by his own, hard work, and in connexion with which he has had a good deal of anxiety and worry, he should have complete freedom of contract.

Mr. BAILEY.-Some people want to be protected agai~st themselves.

Major BAIRD.-I think we may just as reasonably say that some do not. . Mr. PRENDERGAST.-YOU belong to a

profession that has not complete freedom of contract. You would not engage in an argument before a Court although the law says you may.

Major BAIRD.-That is a privilege of a different branch of the profession from that to whi'ch I belong. Our freedom of contract is restricted to some extent.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-And restricted against the direct intention of the law.

Major B.tlIRD.-I do not mind the re­strictions that are placed on our freedom of contract, but the case of a man who has produced property by his orwn energy is very different indeed. The Bill inter­feres with freedom of contract in a way tha.t I consider is very dangerous indeed, and I think it will eventually react against the farmers whom the Government are

658 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

professing to help. I hope the Attorney­General will be able to tell us b€fo're the debate doses whether or not the compul­sory clause is quite satisfa'ctory or not. It provides that-

No person in Victoria shall, except as pre­IScribed, sell wheat to or buy wheat from any other person in Victoria for delivery in Vic­toria before the first day of December. One thousand nine hundred and twenty-five, ex­cept to or from the Board or persons author­ized by it.

Evidently that does not cover an Inter­State contract.

Mr. BAILEY.-Do you melan that it docs not go far enough ~

Major BAIRD.-I am not sure whether it dOles what the! Government want it to do. Even in the railway clause. inter­State contracts arel e,xempted. If a, farmer sells wheat. tOI a, South Australian, is that an inter-Sta.te contract.

Mr. BAILEY.-Will you help us stiffen up the Bill so as to make, it include inter­State! contracts ~

Major BAIRD.-Tliis Parliament has not the power to do tha,t. I think it is a serious thing to interfere with ,contracts in the way proposed in clause 8.

Mr. BAILEY.~Arel you, referring to the rescinding of contra,cts ~ .

Major BAIRD.-Of coursel it is a seri­ous thing to rescind any contract entered into before the 26th August. Clause 13 makes a serious alteration in respect to' liens on crops, and it may eventually rea.ct against the fa,rmer. Frequerntly farmers ha.ve mon€IY advanced to them before the harvest, possibly to enable them to do their harvesting, and give liens over their crops. In the past the man who has ad­vanced the money has belen adequa.t,ely protected by a registered lien. Clause 13 provides tha,t, only the vendor of the wheat is to give notice to thel Board if there is a, lien on his crop. If the vendor omits to dOl that, and the Boa,rd pays him for his whea.t, the lender may lose his money. There is a helavy penalty on ,the fa,rme,r if he dOles not give notice to the Board of a lien, but tha,t would not be muoh satis­faction to the holder of the lien. I think the latter is not sufficiently protected, .and the clause may make it difficult or impossible for' a, far­mer to get an advance, because, of oourse, a money lernder would want to, be sure tha,t he was properly prOotectoed before he would make any advance.

Mr. BArLEY.-You ha,ve not any doubts about the money lender not sending in a notice ~

Major BAIRD.-Under the clause, only the vendor has power to give notice.

Mr. BAILEY.-There is nothing to pre,­vent the lender giving notice.

Major BAIRD.-TheBoard ma~ not pay any a.ttention to his noticel. If it were made quite clear that the holder of the lien had. the power to give notice to the Bo'ard he would, of course, be ade­quately protected, though there are clauses in the Bill that make it very clear tha.t, the BoaTd win not be liable if It pays the morney tOo the, wrong man.

lVlr. BAILEY.-Tha,t can easily be recti­fied.

Major BAIRD.-It can easily be recti­fied" but as clause 13 stands I should say the holder 9f a lien would be in a very difficult poaitiorn. If it is not strengtherned, it may possibly prevent farmers getting this advance, which I should say is very often helpful. It is said that this Pool IS

wanted to do a,way with speculation. As has been pointed out, it is quite, clear that the speculator will still be- able to operate with the scrip. I would rather trust myself to a mercliant than to a Stock Exchange, speculator. If you fol­lowed the prices paid for scrip during the time, thel compulsory Pool was in exist­ence, you wOould find tha~ the scrip was always a few pence a bushel below what was the market value of the wheat at the time. So. I think that the poor, farmer who is compelled to, sell his .scrip will pro­bably lose a good dea.l more a bushe,l at the hands of the Stock Exchange specu­latoll" than at the hands Oof the wheat me·r· chant.

Mr. BROWNBILL.-He is quite- prepared to take that risk.

Major BAIRD.-Then I think he -is making a mistake. Pe,rsonally, I would rather trust the merchant, because the Stock Exchange speculator is out tOo make mOoney, and he is going to· give a good deal less than the scrip is worth. Another thing which I do not like about the Bill is the way in which the railways are to be used. I do not think tha,t our railway system should be used in the way that is possible under clause 11. The railways are owned by aU, and everyone should be equally treated in connexion with them. It is provided that if certain cOon­tra,cts have been entered into' Wlth regard to wheat, the Railway Department can

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 659

refuse to' carry it at the dict,ation of the Board. That is not a prDper use to put a State-owned system of railways to. In my opinion, it is a tyrannical power, and I think it wO'uld be a dangerous precedent. Once use the railways in such a way and you will be able to use them for any other purpose to crush anybody. . Therefore, I hope that the provision will be modified.

l\!(r. BAILEY.-Then you say that the railways should be used to assist the law­breaker ~

1\!tajor BAIRD .-N othing of the, sort. H the other provisions of the measur~ were all right, clause 11 would nDt be n~cessary. It seems to me, therefore, that there must be some :weakness in those other provisions.

1\1r. BAILEY.-Clause 11 is to make the measure effective.

Major BAIRD.-That means that there. is something wrong with the, otber clauses.

Mr. OMAN.-In other words, they are trying to get round the Constitution in this way.

l\1ajor BAIRD,-Yes, and I think the clause is a blot on the Bill.

Mr. BROWNBILL.-Vote for the second reading, and try to remove that blot in Committee.

Major BAIRD.-TD my mind, clause 8 is the most serious part of the measure. Take out clause 8, and I would not mind the Bill.

Mr. HOGAN.-What would happen then ~

Major BAIRD.-Well, it would not be much of a Bill, and it wDuld not do what the Minister wants. In connexiDn with the election of the Board, the <2.om­pilatiDn of a ron of wheat-grDwers is necessary. I think that the, Mlinister ad­mitted that it will take a considerable time for him to get an adequate roll.

Mr. HOGAN.-I do not think it will take a considerable time, but it will ta.ke a Ii trle time.

Major BAIRD.-Three months ~ Mr. HOGAN.-Nothing like that. MajDr BAIRD .-1 shO'uld say that the

,1\~Linister will be lucky if he gets the rDll compiled much before then. It will be practically the end of October before the Bill is through.

Mr. HOGAN.-You are not going to talk about it for a mDnth ~

Major BAIRD.-I would poOint out that the Legislati ve Coun~il. does not meet

. again until the 14th October, and they will take a little time to debate the mea-

sure. If it is assented to by the end of October, the Minister will be lucky.

Mr. HOGAN.-We hope fDr speedier progress than that.

Major BAIRD.-I dO' nOit see hDW you are to get it. In my opinion, it will take the Minister a good deal longer tha.n he thinks toO have t,he roll compiled, and get the Board elected and in oper&tion. It is a roll which win have to be compiled very carefully.

Mr. HOGAN.-We would have to have another roll-one that the honorable member for Hampden spoke of.

The SPEAKER.-Order!' I shall be glad if the hOliorable member will con­tinue his speech.

Major BAIRD.-A provisional Board is to be appointed by the Minister pend­ing the composition of a permanent Board, which will include three repre­sentatives elected by the wheat-growers, and two appointed by the Minister .. The provisional Board, however, will do the great bulk of the work under this Bin. Whatever the Minister may do, he will not be able to get the permanent Board operating until the end of the year, and by that time a great deal of the work in managing this year's Pool will have to be carried out.

Mr. HOGAN.-Suppose we start to pre­pare the wheat-growers' roll now ~

Major BAIRD.-If the honorable gen­tleman does that, some of the work may go for nothing, but that will not matter.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-What about the Bill ?

Major BAIRD.-I want to know what the Government is going to do with this Bill. I do not know whether the Govern­ment intends to appoint the existing Board or its own nominees. We cannot tell what is in the mInd of the Minister. N ow, with regard to' finance. I shall be glad when the Bill is in Committee if the Minister will give ·us more information on this aspect of the matter than he has up to' the present time. He has given us an assurance that the banks will advance the first payment of 3s. 8d. per bushel. I suppose he has had personal assurance from the managers of these banks that they will do what he says, but I should like to know exactly what arrangements have been made. In Qne place the Bill says that the Minister may.make arrange­ments with a bank, or banks, or with the

660 Wheat [ASSEMB.L Y . J . Marketing Bill.

Commonwe.alth Government, for financial accommodation. I should like to know what negotiations have already taken place in this matter.

Mr. HOGAN.-I intimated what had been done in my second-reading speech.

Major BAIRD.-The Bill refers to arrangements which may be made with the Commonwealth Government. I want to know what arrangements are contem­plated with that- Government.' It is pro­vided in sub-clause (2) of clause 7 that the Treasurer of Victoria may arrange with the Government of the Common­wealth for the repayme:nt of any money provided by the Government of the Com­monwealth. What moneys have been pro· vided by the Commonwealth?

Mr. PRENDERGAST . .,-N 0 provision will be necessary if no money is provided.

Major BAIRD.-I want to know the reason for the inclusion of those words in the Bill?

Mr. HOGAN.-That gives the Treasurer authority to make the necessary financial arrangements.

Mr. MORLEY.-Have any arra:q.gements been made?

Mr. HOGAN.-I told the House in my second-reading speech what arrangements had been made, and we are now trying to make other arrangeme.nts.

Major BAIRD.-With the Common­wealth Government?

Mr. HOGAN.-With the Commonwealth Bank and the associated banks.

Major BAIRD.-But this refers to the C,ommonwealth Government. The Trea­surer is given power to make certain re­payments to the Commonwealth Go­vernment.

Mr. HOGAN.-If we get TI?-oney from the Oommonwealth Government we would like to repay it.

Major BAIRD.-The Minister has told us that arrangements have been made with the Commonwealth Bank, but why does he want to give the Treasurer power to repay money to the Commonwealth Government?

Mr. HOGAN.-We may get a greater advance than I have indicated. Honor­able members have stated that 3s. Sd. per bushel is not sufficient, and we are en­deavouring to make arrangements so that a greater advance may be made.

M.ajor HAIRD.-.-:.Will the money come from the Com·monwealth Go,vernment ~

Mr. HOGAN.-It will come from where­ever we can get it.

Major BtAIRn.-It may come from the Commonwealth Government ~

Mr. ROGAN.-I do not know if that is likelly; but if it does, we want power to repay it.

Major BAIRD.-I am merely desiring information as to the object of certain provisions in the Bill; and when we are in Committee on this particular clause I hope the Minister will go more into detail than he did in his second-reading speech. I only need add that clause 8 is the one which provides for the compulsory Pool, and that makes it practicaly impossible for me to support the second reading of this Bill. I realize that it is impossible

. 1100 alter that clause and still make the Bill acceptable to the GoveJ;:nment or t.o the Farmers Union. There is, therefore. nothing left for me too do but to vote against the second reading.

JM.r. GREENWOOD. - I hope the Minister is prepared to agree tOI an ad­journment of the debate.

Mr. HOGAN.-Not yet awhile. Mr. GREENWOOD.-There is plenty

of time between now and 14th October. Mr. HOGAN.-We do not know that. Mr. GREENWOOD.-T'he House is to

meet at 11 o'clock to-mlon·ow. Mr. H.oGAN.-I would like to hear the

honorable member to-night. Mr. GREENWOOD. - I should be

more effective to-morrow. Mr. WEBBER.-T'hat is all the more

reason for hearing you to-night. l\![r. HOGAN.-I want to g-et the second

reading through to-night. . Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK..-There are a

number of members on this (the Opposi­tion) side of the House who wish to speak, and we want to ha,ve replies to statements which have been made. It is a fair request.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-As a matter of fact I am not ready to speak to-night. The Government will not lose any time· by agreeing to the adjournment now, more particularly if we agree that the Bill shall be put through this House by 14th October in time for the meeting of the Legislative Council.

Mr. HOGAN.-Some other m,embers may be ready to go on to-night.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-If other m.em­bers do I am prepared to give way; but.

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 661

it is now 10 o'clock, and we m.eet !i-gain to-morrow at 11. Does the Minister abso­lutely refuse to agree to the adJo~rn­ment~

Mr. HOGAN.-I should like to hear the honorable member now.

,Mr. GRE~NWOOD.-If I have to speak to-night, I may remind the hon~r­able gentleman that there will _be plenty of other opportunities when the Bill is in Commit.tee;.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-Why not proceed now~

Mr. GREE,NWOOD.-I think it is a fair thing to ask for the-adjournment of the debate, and I do urge it.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-We will adjourn , the debate at half-past ten o'clock.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Weare awaiting a reply from the Minister" to the statements that have been made from this side of the House.

Mr. HOGAN.-There will be a reply in due course.

Si~ AJ_EXANDER PEAcocK.-But why uot have it now ~

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-We want to save time, if you don't. '

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I am personally interested in the reply that the Minister will make to the suggestion of the Farmers Union party. At present we do not know what the Government intend to do in regard to the proposed amendments.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-When the Bill has been read a second time, a statement will be made by the Government as to what we intend to do in Committee. That is the only time honorable members can ex­pect a statement' to be made.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAcocK.-That is not in accordance with parliamentary tradi­tion.

Yr. PRENDERGAsT.-The Leader of. the Opposition cannot run the show.

Sir ALEXANDEn. PEACOCK.-I do not want to run the show; I want t'O help.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I feel that this is one of the most serious measures that have come before the House since I en­tered Parliament. We are laying down in tlhis Bill fresh principles foor fixing prices. The change may become an accepted policy in this State. It is of the utmost importance that we do not simply look at this matter as an expedient mea­sure to put some added profits into the pockets of the farmer. Rather we should look at it from the point of view of what

it means as a State policy. If the Vic­torian farmers were in this position, that the price of wheat was so low as to be unlikely to give them an adequate returlJ. for their ljlbours, there might be some justification for the proposal. But that is not the case. Wheat' is opening out at a price which is unmistakably a prodit­able one to the farming community, and it does seem to me that at such a time we should hesitate, go stea.dily intQl the whole matter, and see the direction in which the 'Bill is taking us. ·Probably every honorable member has received cir­culars from the Mildura district council, and the Dried Fruits Association, asking that the various State Governments should immediately legislate for a, com­pulsory dried fruits Pool. If the com­pulsoory wheat Pool is established, there will be no justification for not granting that request. If the wool-growers of the State care to follow that up with a simi­lar request, then, logically, the House cannot refuse to grant it. When we start a'll such a course we have to rec01gnize that finally we may get dQlwn to a Pool for onions, or even for the fireworks made by the Chinese in Little Bourke-st,reet.

1\1:1'. MORLEy.-Or for peas. Mr. GREENWOOD.-The honorable

member for Barwon generally gets his own way, so we may have a green pea PQiQll. That is the trend OIf present-day politics. If the memhers olf the Farmers Union party were actuated by the sound political conviction that they were ad­vancing a State policy, to be carried out for the benefit of all forms of rural pro­duction, and even of manufactured articles, if they said they we,re supporting this measure because it was in the direc­tion of :fixing that principle, we could not object to the present position. But we know that this Pool is put up purely from a selfish aspect, and that in a year when prices are excessive. They are doing that to gain more financial returns for the wheat-growers of the State, utterly regardless of what the political policy may mean to the future of Victoria. I do urge upon them to very carefully con­sider where they are going. They are defining their position very clearly by an amendment forecasted by their leader, the honorable member for Rodney. They are out, first of all, to get a greater advance than 3s. Sd. a bushel. Then they are out

662 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

to secure an increase of the fees of the directors that sit upon the Board.

Mr. ALLAN.-N o. Mr. GREENWOOD.-The Farmers

Union party want to :fix the salaries straight out at the present maximum amount of £500. In addition, they are out to get four farmers' representatives on a Board of five. They have graciously conceded one representative other than farmers on the Pool. They are out to entirely omit clause 24, ,vhich does afford some protection to the consumers of the State, . and does give to the Government some power to see that in the working of this huge combine consideration is given to consumers in the great cities. Just as those selfish' instincts are very clearly de­fined in the Farmers Union party's atti­tude in relation to the creation of this Pool, regardless of where it may lead us politically, so in the proposed amend­ment!' the same selfish instincts are shown.

Mr. ALLAN.-I rise to a point of order. I object to the honorable mem­ber for Boroondara calling me selfish.

The SPEAKER.-If the honorable member for Rodney objects to being

. called selfish, then I ask the honorable member who made that charge to with­draw it.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I do not know exactly what I have to withdraw, but I do so with great pleasure. But this is the position: lIonorable members can interpret it themselves. There is no serious consideration being given to where we are moving so far as the principles of the Bill are concerned. In a year when prices are very big indeed, and at a time when prices to the consumer of bread and so forth must necessarily be ex­cessive, we have the proposal to confer on the farmers of the ('ommunity added

. profits. They are prepared to state, of course, that there is the machinery in this Bill that is going to save the organization something, and they are out to get the benefit of it. Past experience of Pools does not show that there is any tangible difference between the working of com­pulsory or voluntary Pools and that of private enterprise. The Government have made the Bill vital. They are going to "stiffen" on the Bill because its pro­posals touch their own political ideals. For a similar reason I presume that the Leader of the Farmers Union party will ma~e the amendment, which he proposes

to move, also vital. His amendment is that the fa~mers must have complete cou­t.rol of theIr wheat. I want to' say that soo far as the principle of he'lping the far­mer is concerned nOi party has belen willing to dOl more for them than the Liberal party. I am thoroughly convinced as a man who is connected with commercial life" and has some knowledge of market processes, tha,t this year in pa,rticular the whole procedure, under this Bill will result tlnally in a definite l0'ss to, the farmers of the Sta,wl. Taking the figures that ha,ve been recently quoted, and they are', as far as I can ga,the,r, correct, in the highest ye,ar 1922-23, the Pool average was about 4s. 9~d. a, busheL In the same yea,r pri­vate, ente,rprise paid 5s. 3~d. for the whole of the purchases of wheat made,. A.pproxi­mately t~e YIeld of whea.t in that year in the Sta.te of Victoria. was about 40,000,000 bushe,ls, and the difference, as honorable members will notice', is 5~td. in fa,vour of priva,te, ent,erprise 'as against the Pool average. Had the, whole of thel wheat bee,n sold at the price paid by private ente,rprise" £1,000,000 more would ha.ve been put into' the pocket of the producers of thel Sta.te .

Mr. WETTENHALL.-That is dire>etly contrary t0' the informa,tion given to'me.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I suggest that the honorable member should get, mo["e correct information. I am dealing with three years. In the year 1921-22 the ad­vantage was with the Pool t()l the extent of !d. only, and in the year 1923-24 lid.

Mr. HOGAN.-That is not correct. Mr. A.LLAN.-What arel you quoting

from 1 Mr. GREENWOOD.-From the' best

informa,tion I have been able to obtain. 1\1:1'. HOGAN.-Wha,t, is the source of it? Mr. GREENWOO-D.-I have, obtained

my informatiO'n from the best sO'urce. FOT tli~ ye'a,r 1921-22 the Pool ave,ra.ge, was 5s. l~d. Ha.ve you those figures?

Mr. HOGAN.-N0'. Mr. GREENWOOD.-For the year

1923-24 the Pool ave,rage is given as 4s. 8-}d., but that is an estimate. Have you those figures?

Mr. HOGAN.-No; I ha,ve different figures. The figures I have for 1923-24 a,re 4s. 4d. per bushel at country stations, and outside the Pool at country stations 4s., the difference being 4d. a 'bushel in favour of the PooL

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Ma1'keting Bill. 663

Mr. GREENWOOD.-Is the honorable gentleman prepared to. give me' the source of his information ~

Mr. HOGAN.-No, not a.iter your re­fusal to give me the source of the informa­tion yQiU have obtained.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-Then we will have to leave the matter there.

Mr. SOLLY.-You get your inforrmation fram a two-up schaal in Flinders-lane.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-Now I under­st.and the hO'norable member's connexialll with two-up schools in Flinders-lane. In regard tOo the figures I have given I am nat· cOoncerned with the, campa,rison be­tween private enterprise and the POOIL I am. cQon?erned with the comparison of pnces m the three years to which I ha,ve. referred: In 1~22-23 private enterpnse Qibta,llled a hIgher average

• than the. Poal. ~hat was a year af high wheat pnces. ThIS year is a re,fiection af thel year 1922-23, and I sa,y that, taking the law af a,v·erages and prices now being high, as a Poal ta,kes longerr tOo mar­ket its wheat than private ente,rprise, the result of it must be a loss to the wheat­growers, as against privatel ent.erprise work­ing in co-operation wi,th a voluntary p.ool. Prices to-day are tremendously hIgh. Those who. have their fingers on the pulse of the world's market recagnize that there may, at any time, be a. set back in the prices of A.ustralian products, and at this stage any man who has a knowledge of business ,would say that having prices offered to us that are exceptionally good we should get the money and 'secure our profit. To put the whole of the '\vheat and other products of the State through the slow-moving process of a Pool, would be to take a risk that would not be in the interest of the State, or of the wheat­growers. Then we have to take into con~ sid~ration the movements of exchanges which make it absolutely necessary that all the machinery possible should be put into operation to bring money from the other side of the world to Victoria. Pri­vate enterprjse firms, with their facilities of bargaining in regard to exports and import&, are better able to do this than a POQol would .be. If by a paHcy Qof re.ci­procity with Britain we cauld stop the buying af frOom £10,000,000 to £15,000,000 wQorth of goads from CQoun­tries in which the exchanges are adverse, we would nat have to' submit to the penalty we pay to-day, of from 50s. to 60s. on every £100 that is brQought out

here. This would represent a, saving to the rural prQiducers of from £700,000 to £1,000,000. That is a pasition that can be mu~h better dealt, with by private enterpnse firms than by a Pool. The private enterprise firms will map up the exchanges, and there will be no set-off or. :gaods against ,goods so fa,r as the handling Qif commodities by a, Pool is can­cenled. The lass thus incurred will have tQi be barne entirely by the PaOlI, and, therefore, by the whe1at-growers. This year has opened with prices that are higher than are ordinary, and if we put the whole of our wheat through the one source, and then have to grapple with the problem of exchange in one amount I am satisfied that the result will not only be loss to the State, but also to the producer. Oompetition is the only sound basis of buying. If there is over competitIon in selling prices must be reduced. If you have big competition in buying the proba­bility is that you will get a bet­ter result for what you are sell­mg. By this system of compulsion you will be destroying all competition in ~he purchase of the wheat output. The position eventually will be that though you may destroy competition in Victoria, when the wheat reaches the other side of the world it will have to be sold to the very men who are barred from buying it here. You will have to bring in private enterprise on the other side, and despite an the talk abaut the saving of speculators' profits and so forth, the position will be as bad as ever, because there win be gam.bling in wheat scrip here, and eventually private enterprise will make profits on it. To completely aba,ush the competition af private firms with the wheat Poal ~s wrang, and dangerous in the in­terest of the farmers themselves. If the agents were allowed to compete here the immediate e,ffect would be that the Board would De upon its best behaviour. The first volu ntary Pool handled 80 per cent. of the wheat of the State; the second, 70 pel' cent.; and the third,. I understand, 60 per cent. It does not seem as if the farmers are endorsing the wheat Pool principle when they have reduced the wheat sent voluntarily to the Pool from 80 to 60 per cent. in the course of three years. However, on a non-compulsory basis, 60 pe r cent. of the wheat would be pooled, Ani ill handling that the Board

664 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

would feel itself bound to return to the growers of the State a price that would .lustify its continued existence. It would know that private enterprise was bidding against it, and it would determine that the last penny of expense would be cut c1own. It would determine also that in every po'ssible way it would get the highest price on the· other side of the world. Its very reputation and existence would be at stake in connexion with the price obtained on the whf'at sold abroad, because private enterprise would be there to show up its every failure. Cut that out and you will probably have ·a slow moving machine that will not bring the same keenness into its work, because com­petition will be smothered entirely, ana there will be no way of measuring the effectiveness of the work. You will have the same position in this regard a,s you have in connexion with the tenders for railway engines. The Minister of Rail­ways finds that he is up against private enterprise, and that, in spite of the often made statement that the Newport work­shops can produce engines in competition with private enterprise, they were not .able to submit a satisfactory tender for the en­gines required by another State. If you establish what is practically a Govern­ment Department by such a measure as this Bill, and destroy any means of checking its effectiveness, you will 100ad on to the State a costly working machine fOIl' which the producer will have to pay. In connexion with the measure there are cer­tain matters Ithat seem to have escaped attention. It does not seem to be pro­vided. for instance, that the present trai~ed staff will necesarily be available for the next Pool. Under the system of an elective Board it may possibly be that the services of the men who have man­aged the POOlls for a number of years will not be available. There is just the pos­sibility that the new Board will not have sufficient experience for Ithe control of such a big organization as this. There is no question. that provision should be made for the present corpora,tion to carry on at least until the new Board is elected. I do not see that anything has been done to protect the shareholders in the present Pool. Something like £50,000 was spent in connexion with sheds, equipment, and plant generally for the handling of this year's wheat. When the new Board

Mr. Greenwood.

comes into existence it need not take over those assets. Possihly the· old sheds and equipment will have to be sold at the very best possible price, and the shareholders will get a very poor return for the money they put in for the carrying on of the Pool. If there should be any dispute over the transfer of the plant a chaotic condition may arise, and the new Board may find difficulty in functioning. Then, again, when this Pool is finished, there is no provision at all made whereby the necessary capital will be provided to carry it on to the follOlwing year. I. am presuming that there is going to be 'a compulsory Pool, or, if not, a voluntary POOiI. There should be !)ome means pro­vided-perhaps a tax OIf Id. per bushel­whereby the necessary capital will be found for carrying on the Pool from one year to the next. The Board, it seems to· me, should have the full powe,r to appoint its own agents to collect wheat in every part of the State. For some re,asons that can be quite easily understood, the two co-operative companies have been chosen to do the coUectmg, and the one private enterprise firm-Jas. Bell and Company -has been cut out. Last year, I under­stand, £50,000 or £60,000 was paid to the cO-OoPElrative companies for this work.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-Out of which they paid a; lot of expenses.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-Of course they did, but as a result they were able to make· a balance-sheet which they would certainly not have been able tOo do other­wise. I suggest that if the Board is going to do its work it should have complete control of the handling of the wheat.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-There is nothing in the Bill about the co-operative companies.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-We had the statement O'f the Minist,er on the subject. If the Government follows the custom it has established so far as the Police Com­mission is concerned, we may expect that the Government nominees on the Board, and probably the chairman, will be public servants. That, to my mind, will put the Board in a most invidious position indeed. There is no doubt that the Go­vernment will have very big control in­deed, and undue influence over any public servant who may be placed on the BOIard.

Mr. HUGHES.-Do you suggest that in connexion with the Police Commission 1

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I did not in­tend to maKe that suggestion.

Wheat [1 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 665

Mr. HUGHES.-Why did you refer to the Police Commission 1

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I did not mean to suggest anything by innuendo at all. I am simply affirming that three civIl servants constitute the Police Commis­sion, and that if the same po'licy is followed under this Bill, the farmers may expect to have a civil servant as chairman of the Board, and possibly two civil servants as members of the Board.

Mr. HUGHES,-You suggested that the Government had· a certain influence over the Police Commission.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-'Ve will say that there will be such a thing as an un­conscious influence on the minds of those men who are emplo~ed by the Government and directly controlled by the Govern­ment. So far as tlie question of com­pulsion is concerned, I am quite sure, as othe,r hOinorable member.s have stated, that when the farmers wake up to the position they will recognize that it will be the sorriest day in their history when the Bill is placed on the statute,-book. Th~y will have lost all freedom to control theIr own commodities. Many of them are plac­ing the whole of their incomes in the hands of other persons, and trusting to their ingenuity and ability to bring them a. satisfactory return. The wheat-grower will feel himself in the end but half a man when he realizes that instead of con­trolling his own destiny he is sitting back, and biking his income from a machine over which he has no contI' Oil and no po,wer of -criticism. The' very nature o,f this Bill is indica ted by the penalties in it. FOT the first offence there is a fine of up to £200. .

Mr. SLATER.-The penalties are not as heavy as they were in your own party's Bill.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-Well, there is no justification for them here. Wherever they came from the Government we:-e mighty glad to use them, and when it comes to fixing a policy of general nationalization the nature of those pen­alties is emphasized in a way that I intend to bring out. I move-

That the debate be now adjourned.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to, ·and the debate was adjourned until next day. Leave was given the honorable member for Boroon­darra to continue his speech on the re­sumption of the debate.

ASSENT TO BILLS REPORTED.

Australian Wine Licence (Bailliestoll) Bill.

Olub Hotel (Hopetoun) Licence Bill. Ohildren's Welfare Bill. . Melbourne and Metropolitan TramwaY:3

(Inscribed Stock) Bill. J eparit Land Bill. Richmond Land Bill. Yarram Yarram Mechanics' Institute

Bill. Oonsolidated Revenue Bill No.5.

ADJOURNMENT.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).-T move-

That the House do now adjourn.

I wish to intimate that the Wheat Marketing Bill will be brought on agai It to-morrow, and we hope to get a decision then, at all events, in connexion with the­second reading.

The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 10.35 p.m.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

Thu/rsday, Octobe1' 2, 1924-.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. John Bowser) took the chair at 11.12 a.m.

WHEAT MARKETING BILL.

The debate, (adjourned from the pre­vious da.y) on the motion of Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Agriculture) for the second reading of this Bill J"'as resumed.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-The Minister, in moving the, second reading of the Bill, to the astonishment OIf the whole House, probably i;ncluding himself, quoted cer­tain passages .from Soripture, He used the illustration of the seven fat years and the seven lean ye,ars of ancient history to show that the principle of wheat Pools is not ll€IW, but is as old almost as tjme itself. However, I think the Min­ister read one chapter only. Evi­dently he had no time lto read more, or he would not have used the illustration. Honorable members will remember the episode related by him,

. as stated in Genesis. A dream came to

666 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Mafketing Bill.

Pharaoh that was interpreted for him by .J oseph. Thelre were, to be, seven fat years and seven lean years. During the seven fat years Joseph collected all the grain of the land and put it into a big wheat Pool. I suggested that it was not a wheat Pool, but a corner in wheat, and it is very evid~nt, from the way the story, as related Biblically, opens out, that that is exactly what it was. After that pelriod the brothelrs of Joseph came to him, and he was very lavish with his -gifts to them. He was very free with the products that had been entrusted to him, so far as his own brothers welre concerned, but his treatment of the producers, when later they came to liim, is certainly worth looking into. In Genesis, chapter 47, beginning at the 13th verse, the story is unfolded as follows:-

13. And there was no bread in all the land; for the famine was very sore, so that the land of Egypt, and all the land of Canaan fainted by reason of the famine.

14. And Joseph gathered up all the money that was found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn· which they bought; and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh's house.

15. And when money failed in the. land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread; for why should we die in thy pre­sence? for the money faileth.

16. And Joseph said, Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail.

17. And they brought their cattle unto Joseph; and Joseph gave them bread in ex­change for horses, and for the flocks, and for the cattle of the herds, and for the asses; and he fed them with bread for all their cattle for that year.

18. When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide it from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not aught left in the sight. of my lord, but our bodies, and our lands:

19. Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be ser­vants unto Pharaoh; and give us seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate.

20. And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them; so the land became Pharaoh's.

21. And as for the people, he removed them to cities from one end of the borders of Egypt even to the other end thereof.

22. Only the land of the priests bought he not; for the priests had a portion assigned them of Pharaoh, and did eat their portion which Pharaoh gave them; wherefore they sold not their lands.

23. Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold I have bought you this day and your land for

Mr. G1·eenwood.

Pharaoh; 10, here is seed for you, and ye shall sow the land .

24. And it shall come to pas~ in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.

Mr. HOGAN.-That was a bit of share­farming.

Ml-. GREENWOOD.-The final posi­tion, as the result of the fir.st wheat Pool, was that the rural producers were stripped of their cattle, stripped of their horses, and stripped of their asses.

Mr. HOGAN. - After seven years' drought.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-In addition to tha,t a tax was put on them 'of 20 per cent. of all. the corn they grew from that day forward for ever. '

Mr. HOGAN.-Do you know the terms the modern share-farmer makes ~

Mr. GREENWOOD.-Th'ey are cer­tainly nothing approaching the terms I have quoted.

Mr. HOGAN.-Do you know what they are ~

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I know quit.e well what the usual sha,res are, but what. has that to do with the issue ~ The Min­ister used the illustration of the first wheat Pool, but he did not finish the story. The result of the first wheat Pool was the complete desolation of the land and a permanent tax of 20 per cent. on the whole of the production of the farmers.

Mr. HOGAN.-It was the famine that caused that.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE (To Mr. Green­wood).-You are misquoting Scripture.

Mr. GREENvVOOD.-I shall be verv glad if the honorable gentleman tries to. show, by reading himself, how I have mis­interpreted Scripture.

M.l-. HOGAN.-How do you think the producers would have fared if the Pool had not beeu fo.rmed ~

Mr. GREENWOOD. - The result is self-evident. It could not have been worse.

lfr. HOGAN.-They would have all been dead.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-They might just as well have been dead. However, I wish to make a comparison be­tween the possibilities of the present position and the old wheat Pool. There is no doubt that as far as the present Pool is concerned, there is a

Wheat f2 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 667

smile on the face of the tiger. The Go- There is no doubt the Labour party stands vernment come along and appear to be for nationalization, and once this machine doing a wonderful lot for the rural pro- is created it will be possible by passing the ducers. In actual fact they are by a simplest of Bills-in fact, almost by a re­steady process deliberately working to gulation-to effect a change in the repre­bring about their own political objective. sentation on the Board which will actually By holding out a bunch of carrots they are bring about the nationalization of the endeavouring to get the support of the rural production of this State. Farmers Union for this Bill, which will Mr. OAIN.-In Queensland our party eventually enable the whole of the pro- have had an absolute majolrity fO'r eight duction of rural producers to be brought years, but their Board is constituted in completely under Government control. Not the same way as we now propose. only will that principle eventually apply Mr. GREENWOOD.-That may be so, to wheat, but it will be extended. The and all I can say is that it must be be­:~M:inistry are positively tied to the policy cause of the political co~siderations of the of nationalization, and to them this Bill moment. N ow, what is this bunch of is a step towards nationalization. With carrots that is held out to the farmers ~ their eyes shut tight our farming friends in What dOles it amount to' ~ It is. every part of the State are assisting in the creation of a machine which, when com- really the fixed principle of com-

pulsion. The reason advanced by pleted, will mean the whole production of our farmer friends for agreeing to wheat passing into Government control. h d' f h' " 1 f Our friends on the Ministerial side know tea optIO'n 0 t IS prmClp e 0 com-

pulsion is that otherwise it will not be that they cannot get through this House known what wheat will go into the Pool. a Bill that provides that the majority of .... '\.fter an experience of three years with ::t

members of the Board shall be Govern- voluntary Pool it should be possible to ment nominees. Oonsequently they have ' fairly accurately gauge what the amount to leave for a moment the principle for of wheat pooled will be'. Thereforre there which they stand. As soon as they have do.es not appear to be such a difficulty as the numbers, however, as soon as they have it might seem at first glance. the power, the position will change. Mr. SNowRAr~L.-You could not aver-

Mr. BRowNBILL.-It won't be long be- age it on past experience. fme we have the numbers.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-Then it will be Mr. GREENWOOD.-You could. I all the worse for the farmers, for the do not care what your business is, you position will be reached when the Board govern your actions for the current year will wholly consist of Government nomi- on the experience of the past. At the pre-

sent moment private enterprise is offering nees. Then with price fixation in opera- 5's. 5d. a bushel cash to the farmers at tion as far as local commodities are concerned, the producers will be in the country railway stations. The proposal position of having handed over to the Go- of the Government is that under the com­vernment for all time powers which will pulsory Pool an advance of 3s. net to the mean for them the loss'of control of their farmers should be made. own products. Mr. BRowNBILL.-As an instalment.

Mr. HOGAN.-That is not correct. Mr. GREENWOOD. - Yes. The Mr. GREENWOOD.-Unquestionably, farmers will receive the balance in dribs

it is correct. There is no doubt about it. and drabs, and if the market breaks they It is in the Labour party's platform. will get considerably less than private

Mr. HOGAN.-That is not in our plat- enterprise is offering: In this particular form. year, when the markethasopened so high,

Mr. GREENWOOD.-The platform of that may possi,bly occur. If they review the Labour party stands for nationaliza- the position so far as this bunch of carrots tion, and the Minister knows it. is concerned, the farmers will realize that

Mr. HOG,AN.-It stands for the organiza- it is not worth taking. The question is tion of markets. whether they would rather receive cash for

Mr. GREENWOOD. - Of course, it their produce from private enterprise or does. But where did they get that policy ~ an advance of 3s. a bushel, with the There is not an original thought in it. balance coming to them in dribs and drabs,

~68 Wheat I.ASSKMBLY.J 1.11arketing Bill.

with the possible risk of the market drop­ping. If the fixed principle .of compul­sion is to apply in regard to wheat, there is no doubt that an extension of that prin­ciple will take place. Under the policy of nationalization it would be all compul­sion. It would mean .the conscription of labour and the conscription of everyt.hing that we have got. Eventually the Bill will probably'mean the enforcement OIf t.he poli­tical principles of the Labour party, and bring under control, not only the farmers, but the farms themselves. Last night I was dealing with the question of penal­ties. Personally, I am not worried whe­ther they were in a previous measure or not, or who was responsible for them .. All I know is that here we have a Bill which brings every farmer in the community under the thumb of compulsion, and under the threat of penalties. Those penalties are so severe that their very nature shows the determination of the Government to rigidly enforce this principle. For a first .offence the penalty may be as high as £200, or three months' imprisonment,; for .a second .offence, from £10 to £350, or up to six months' imprisonment, or both; and for a third or any subsequent offence, from £50 to £500, and imprisonment up to twelve months. In the case of a cor­poration the liability is for a first 9ffence .n.ot less than £25 or more than £1,000; for :a second offence, not less than £50 or more than £2,000; and for a third or any subsequent offence, not less than £100 or m~re than £3,000. Then every chair­man, every managing director; and every officer concerned in the management of that corporation can be proceeded against just as though he had committed a sepa­rate .offence. I will not go into the penal­ties in further detail, but boiled down they amount to this: That not only is this principJe Of compulsion going to be en­forced, but it is to be done with such rigidity that eventually the farmers will ;ealize that they have written their signa­ture to an agreement which binds them permanently in the bonds of slavery. The question is: 'Vhat are they going to ge,t out of j t ~ If t,here were a guarantee that they would get a great financial benefit, vou could understand that it would be a temptation. Here is a Bill under which the principle of compulsion will be rigidly fixed by heavy penalties, so that they will feel it in every movement they make every

Mr. Greenwood.

day of the year. Boiled down, I believe it will mean, although no one can say with any certainty, that they will get less for their produce than if the Pool were not made oompulsory.

:Mr. HOGAN.-The open market people are philanthropists, and will give 3d. or 4:d. a bushel more for their wheat?

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I do not under­stand how that argument applies.

Mr. HOGAN.-Under 'the Poo.} t.he farmers will get the full value of their produce. Tlhey cannot get more than that from the open market.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-Is it nOit true that the Pool is only a collecting machine fO'r wheaU It sells it practically to private enterprise on the other side of the world.

Mr. HOGAN.-N at at all. .Mr. GREENWOOD.-That is the posi­

tion. lVIr. IIoGAN.-That is not the pO'sition.

The Board will a,ppoint agents to sell the wheat in England, and, if they take my advice, they will emplO'y co-operat~ve organiza tions therel, and in this way it will bel a complete cO-Q1perative scheme. It will e,liminate your friends for whom you a,re making this speech.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-If thel honorable gentleman does what he says, he will be making the whiole scheme an absolute faroo and failurel. There ~s no doubt a.bout that. I am nO't anta.gO'nistic to' co­opera,tive companies.

Mr. HOGAN.-If yQlur friends want to ma,ke mone'Y out O'f wheat., lelt them grow il. .

lVIr. GREENWOOD.-I stand entire,ly behind the co-operative principle, and I am quite willing tha,t peO'ple; should co'­opelrate to do anything they like with thelir products, but when we ha,ve Go­vernment intell'ference in the, way pro­posed in this Bill we are, going a 100ng way too fa,r. When the first compulsory Pool was established the la,tel Sir Deuison Miller, the chairman of the CO'mmon­wealth Bank, said it was absolutely neces­sary to make use of the selling organiza­tions in England. Now the Government a·re p'roposing some; othelf system, and if its action results in the smashing of sell­ing agencies in othelr parts O'f the world, it is going to destroy an essential element of success.

Mr. JACKSON.-You love the middle· man.

Wheat [2 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 669

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I am spelaking with some knowledge of business, and I know that people engaged in the selling of w he'a,t, as in the disposal of other com­modities, ha,ve to be acquainted with the condit JOIns that prevail all over the world, and if the GQlvernment aoes whd.t it pro­poses it will smash the Pool and make its success impossible.

Mr. HOGAN.-You are trying to prove that the middleman is indispensable.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-The honorable gentleman has said tha,t before. The proposa,ls of the Government will bring the market back, and wheat will have t,1) be sold at a hea,vy loss to the producers of this State.

Thel SPEAKER.-Thel hQlnorable mem­ber's timel has elxpired.

Mr. ANGUS.-I havel not had time to study this Bill as closely as I should like owing to my duties as a" member of tbe Elections and Qualifications Committee. I want, however, to speak on the gene1ral principle of this proposal. It is wen known tha,t a schemel for a compulsory Pool was turned down at the general election in 1921. As the result of that election the representa,tives of the Farmers Union in this House had their numbe,rs reduced by one. Mr. Gibson was rejected, and that brought the number of members of the party to twelve,. My constituency endorsed the action I took in opposing a compulsory Pool. The e,lectors of Gun­bowe,r strongly resisted thel attempt to bring t~e farmers back to the serfdom of olden times, when peltty kings acted just as they pleased. The only difference in the present' proposal is that it will make thel farmers serfs without putting a collar round their necks.

Mr. HOGAN.-Is there, any difIe,rence between thel attitude of the man who re­placed Mr. Gibson on the whelat Pool and Mr. Gibson's own attitude ~ Both were in favour of this form of Pool ~

Mr. ANGUS.-They werel bQlth in favour of a wheat PQlol, but not under thel proposal nQlw before us, in which two members of the Board will represent the consumelI"S or the Government. This will mean putting it into the hands of the Government to oontrol the price of wheat. That was never contemplate.d in any pre­vious Pool. I have always been an advo·­ca,te of a voluntary Pool. I think I can truthfully claim that I was the first to mention a· voluntary PooL I did so when it was first proposed to construct silos.

A scheme was brought before the House by Mr. McKenzie, and I then suggested that these silos should become the' pro­perty of the produoers. They would form the base of security to enable the growers to finance a voluntary wheat Poo1. My attitude has been endorsed by the wheat­growers of this State. I have no hesita­tion in saying tha.t it is not right to take a,way from the wheat producers, who have been so oft€,n described as the backbone of this State, the right to deal with their produce in their own way. .

Mr. BROWNBILL.-The, producers want the Pool.

Mr. ANGUS.-Th6'Y do not. A very large area of ground is under wheat in my ellectorate, and I have no hesitat.ion in asking my constituents to refuse to agre1e to this scheme, which means ruin a:nd degradation to the producers. It. will p~t them in the position of ha,ving to be dIctated to by anOother party. That js the -position of thel members of the Labour party, who have tOo do what their mast€lrs t~ll. them. If this proposal is accepted, It IS only a matter of timel whe,n thelre will be confiscation of the property of thel producers as well a,s the articles the'Y produce. There is no doubt that the poore:: class of whe1at-grower, financially speaking, has to sell his scrip because he wants money. This scrip gelts into the hands of speculato~s, and the growe,rs are red uced almost to the verge of ruin be­cause they cannot get the full val~e of their. product at the 'time when the,y most reqUIre the money. It is weJl known that speculators made huge sums of money out of the purchase of scrip, and this proposal will be playing right into the hands of the men who have threle bans in front of their shops. rhe: Gove,rnment is attempting to put the farmer into the hands. of the money lender. At the pre­sent tIme many fa,rmers have to be carried by lo.cal stor€lke1epers, and why should they be embarrassed further in the way proposed by this Bill ~ The establish­ment of a. compulsory Pool will simply mean another obstacle in the way of the

, success of many wheat-growers. The Min­ister has told us that wheat-growers will get the full value of their grain, but that will not be prQlved tOo be thel case,. U uder the pooling system whe'at is sold to millers from month tOo p1.onth on the world's parity. Take a season like this when wheat will probably be worth 6s. ~ bushel in Melbourne at thel beginning of the year.

670 Wheat rASSEMBLY.1 M axketing Bill.

We keep a portion of our wheat till the the requests and demands made by the end of the ye,ar, when it may be worth whea,t-growers. These men own the Qinly 4s. a bushel. 'Ve compel the far- wheat, and sure,ly to goodness they shQiuld mer to keep the wheat till the end of the be allowed to market their prQiduce as season instead o.f causing the miller to they like. buy his wheat at the beginning of the Mr. OMAN.-Tha.t is exactly what we season. But why should the wheat- want. growers be singled Qiut as a, special class· CQilonel BOURCHIER.-T'he honQirable tQi bear all the burden Qif a, depressed member for Hampden spoke strongly market,~ lVlembers O'f this House, as against this measure yesterday. He said watch-dogs of the people's interests, would he was in favour of a volunta,ry Pool. act wrongly if they . allQiwed such an N ow I should like to ask him hQiw much abuse to be pe1rpetrated. I feel very wheat he ever put into a voluntary indignant at the idea of bringing before Pool. Did he ever put into such a Pool this House, constituted as it is mainly one single bag of wheat ~ He did not. of country representa.tives, a proposal to TherefOore I assume that the hOonorable take the contrQiI Oof the product of the. member for Hampden is really in favour wheat-growers out O'f the,ir hands and to of the Qipeu market. give it to a section Qif the people who Mr. OMAN.-I got 5s. 7~d. fOir my have not had a hand in the production. crOoP when the PQiols sold wheat at 48. This Bill has undoubtedly been brought in 9d. per bushel. in the interests of the consumer. Whilst CQilQinel BOURCHIER.-The Leader of I recognize that the consumer's interests the OppositiO'n, when criticizing the Bill should be prO'tected to a certain extent, last night, made a lot of the fact that I do say that we ha,ve. no right to dictate there were not so many wheat-growers to the producer. If the Government had in the voluntary Pool as there were brought in a Bill to determine that the in the first year of the Pool. T'ha,t is price of wheat could not be lower that 5s. no argument at all. All wheat-growers a bushel, they would probably £nd that will agree with me when I state that the farmers would support it, because about 80 per cent. of their numbe'r who the farmers are as much entit.1ed tOo a put wheat into the, voluntary Pool dur­living wage as is thel wOorker. The far- ing the first year Oof its establishment mers have to take the risk of a falling were in favour Oof cOompulsion. What market, a.nd nQiW the Government want ~hey wanted was a compulso,ry wheat to deprive them of the Oopportunit.y Oof Pool. It was beicause of the pinpricks availing themselves Oof a rising market. by wheat.-gro,wers who were not loyal to Every man should be free to sell his the Pool, by the running up 0.£ freight product in the mOost advantageous mar- and that so'rt 0.£ thing, that the, downfall ket at the best price available. Oof the vOoluntary system was brought

ColO'nel BOURGHIER.-I agree with about. I am quite sa.tisfied about that. One of the great arguments in favour of

the proPOosa1 put forwa,rd by the Leader a compulsory wheat Pool is the matter of of the Country party that the Bill should freight. We all recognize tha,t the ideal be 'accepted subject tOo cert.ain amend- system of marketing wheat in Australia ments and modifications. I cannot under- would be through a, compulsOory whea,t stand why my honQirable friends on this P.ool operating in every State, with one ( the Opposi tion) side of the House chart€,ring, one sailing agency, and -a large nu:nber of them In no general cO-Qiperation between the States. way representmg !he wheat-growers- Next to that, in my opinion, the best sho~ld be so hostIle to. ~ measure. method· Qif ha.ndl;pg the whea,t is by a deSIred by the grea~ maJorIty of the compulsory Pool lis is now proposed. I wheat-growers of thIS State. I can- would ask honQirable members whO' not understand why the ~Qinorable mem- do not represent the wheat-growers tQi be ber fOor BOoroondara" for mstancel, shOould a lit.tle mOire re,asooable in their attitude be so int.erested in the que~tion, ~r why towards the. Bill. Probably they repr~­he shoul~ fig~t so hard aga.mst thIS prQi- sent the mIddlema.n or the speculator, posed legIslatIOn. The honorable member but the,y have nOot told us so. They fOor BOoroondara has n(j) producers in his keep that fact in the background. electora,te; he dOles nQit represent any Mr. EVERARD.-Does nOot the honOorable farmers. I think it only reasonable tha,t member for Gunbower represent wheat­t.his HQiuse shQiuld give consideration to growe,rs 1

Wheat [2 OCTOBER, 1924.J M arlceting Bill. 671

Colonel BOURCHIER.-The honorable member for Gunbower is one of the few wheat-gro.wers who are in favour of. a. voluntary Pool. I look at the questIOn this way: The voluntary Pool will gradually go out alto~ether owing to the disloyalty of ce·rtam wheat-growers, therefore the decision really Hes between a compulsory wheat Pool and the open ma.rk€t. I am surprised at the honorable member for Hampden saying that he was in favour of an open marke,t. When I interjected last night he replied that he was in favour of an Olpen market. HOlw a man reprcsentin~ wheat-gro~ers can say, tha,t passes my comprehensIOn. In that case he is not in favour of the organization o.f the producers.

Mr. OMAN.-As a matter Olf fact, I stated quite clearly that I was in favour of a voluntary POlo1. The Victo.rian producers last year sold the whole of the crop that I offelred to the buyers in the cOluntry. It was sold at a high rate to go to New Zealand. They bo.ught every b~. .

ColO'nel BOURCHIER.-I asked the honorable member last night whether he was in favour Olf an o.pen market, and he distinctly said, "Yes."

Mr. OMAN .-So I am. Colonel BOUHCHIER.-That was the

point I was making. It is now certain that the honorable member for Hampden is in favour of an Olpen market.

Mr. OMAN .-But side by side with co­operation.

Colonel BOURC'HIER.-The honorable membelr fOlr St. Kilda stated yesterday that no evidence had been brOlught to bear on the point that the producers Olf the State really desire a compulsory wheat Pool. I should imagine., if he went through the records of the past few years, that he would find sufficient evidence in that ma.tter. It should not be necessary for me to go' over the ground again to show that the producers and farmers are strongly in ~our of pooling the.ir w heat. f"T'~oIiQiFilliIIa admitting that on a "previOous Olccasion I voted for the voluntary POIOL -I did so because I thought that that Pool was in the best interests of the grower a.t the time. But subsequent events have made it clear to me that, the voJuntary POOoI system has failed. To-da.y we are in this positiOon: We must either have a compulsory Pool Oor no POOoI at all. Now it is a recognized fact throughOout Austra-

lia that if the prQiducers do not Oorganize fOor the marketing Oof their products they will be made ducks and drakes Olf by the outside markets of the wOorld. Some. honOlrable members haNe stated that the wheat POool has not paid as much fo:r wheat as the open market. If the hOonOorable member for St. Kilda wants figures he has only to taJre those of last yea,r, when he will find tha.t the wheat POIOI paid 4d. a bushel Olr Is. a bag mOore than the open market. That a.lone is sufficient evidence tha,t the pOOoI­ing of the wheat dnes ensure a higher price to the primary producers. I have stated that I am in favo'r Olf a compul­sory wheat Pool, but I make that statement subject tOl certain amendments to. be made in the Bill which have been agreed to by the COountry party. I hope that t~e Minister in cha,rge Oof the· Bill will intima,te, befOore I sit do'wn, whether or not the Government is prepaJ."ed tOo give favOlrable cO'nsideration tOl the amendments which were read tOo the House last night by the Leader of the Country·party. So far as we aTe con­cerned, those amendments are vital, and I would resp.ectfully ask the Minister to give me an answer too my questiQon.

Mr. A. A. BILLSON (Ovens).-In Qother words you are asking the Government to run away from their own Bill.

ColOonel BOURCHIER.-N Oothing Oof the kind: Very few Bills are brQought dQown which are passed withOout amendment. All that we ask fO'r is certain amendments which will, in our opiniOon, make the Bill mOore acceptable to the wheat-growers Qif the Stat,e. I again ask the Minlster to give us some indication Qof what the atti­tude of the GO'vernment is in regard to the amendments.

The SPEAKER.-I wOould remind the honO'rable member that the ,Minister Qof ., Agriculture has already spoken.

Mr. HOGAN.-I am willing to' ma,ke a statement, but I can only dOl so by leave.

.. Coloue.} BOURCHIER.-Then I wQould ask the Premier, Qir sQome other member of the GO'vernment, if he would be good enough tOl give us an assurance that the amendments we have suggested will receive favQorable consideration if we agree to the second reading Oof the Bill.

Mr. HOGAN.-I will make a statement as soon as I am. permit,ted to do SQ.

COolo'nel BOURCHIER-I thank the honQorable gentleman.

672 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

Mr. HOGAN.-(Min'ister of Agricul­ture).-By lea,ve, I will take advantage of the oppOortunity afforded me by the tolerance of yourself, Mr. Spe,aker, and the House tOo comply with the repeated requests that have been made by the Leader o,f the Oppasi tian. This is my secOond speech on the' mOotian that is now befOore the House, but I understand that it is the desire of honorable members tha,t same ,answer should be given tOi the' criticisms tha,t have been offered. I prOo­pOose to traverse same af the statements that have been made, and to' explain aur attitude regarding the points raised, fa1-lowing the order Q1f the nOotes which 1 ha,ve taken. I want first tOi refer tOo a statement tha,t was made by the hanor­able member fOir St. Kilda. He said that there ~as nO"evidence tOi prQlve that the farmers did not obtain full value for their wheat in the a.pen ma,rket. The evidence at present is, that the market value 0'0£ the new seasan's wheat fOol' January delivery is 68. 4,~d. a bushel, and the infa,rmatiOon we have been a,ble to acquire fram impartial saurces convinces us that the prices right through 1925 will ca.ntinue firm, and if anything, will rise. The price in England for Feb­ruary and ¥arch is higher than the January price.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The GQlVern­ment are prapa.sing to make an ,advance payment of O'nly 3s. 8d. a bushel.

lVIr. HOGAN.-That is another matter with which I will deal later. I repeat tha,t the market value of the new seasa.n's wheat fOor January delivery is 68. 4~d., for February higher, and March still higher, as indicated by sales of "futures" in England and other marke,ts. In face Q1f the knowledge we possess, that the Whe1at­gra,wers Corporatia.n pO'ssess, and that the apen market possess, but that the far­mers do not passess, althaugh the honor­able member fa,r St. Kilda ta.ld us' last night tha,t they kna.w all abaut this mat­ter-in face, I say, a.f the' fact that the January value is 6s. 4~d., many farmers have, sold their wheat at as low 'as 5s. and 5s. 1d. ner bushel.

Mr. GREE~WOoD.-That is for delivery in January.

Mr. HOGAN.-Yes. Regarding that matter here is the pasition: If it we,re not fO'r the work the Victorian Whe,at­growers Corpora,tion has done in ob­taining this know ledge as to the value of next season's wheat, and making it avail-.

able, so as tQ educate the wheat-grower as tQ what his wheat is worth, I venture tOo say that farmers would have continued to 8ell their next season's wheat at 58., 58. 1d., and 58. 2d. per bushel, at which prices many of them have ,SOlId. What honOorable members are complaining about is that one of the prOovisions of the Bill praposes to cancel thooe CQntracts-con­tracts undelr which the open-market 'man, who knew the full value of the whe,at, did business with the wheat-grower, who did not know the full value of the wheat. The latter knows how to grow wheat, but he is not an authority on marketing it, and he was induced to sell it fOir Is. 4d. per bushel less than it was worth. We have in the Bill a prOovisiOon to protect him, and we say to him, C C Yoru have grown the wheat, you own it, and you are en­titled tOo its full value'. The Ga.vernment will help you to get it." And as fOor the friends of the honO'rable member for BQroondara.-middlemen in Flinders-lane and elsewhere-we say to them that if they want to make mOoney out of wheat they should grow it. The honorable mem­ber last night qua.ted a statement pre­pared by the Oopen-market peOople, in which it wa,s stated that the difference between the open-market price and the Poal price fQor 1923-24 was very little.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I did not do that. I quot.ed returns sho'wing what oue firm had paid. '

Mr. HOGAN.-The honorable member stated that the average price paid by the Pool fQor 1923-24 was 4s. 8~d. per bushel, and that the average price for the open­market wheat was 4s. 6!d. per bushel.

1\1:r. GREENWOOD.-I was dealing with the sales of individual firms.

Mr. HOGAN.-That was the statement the honarable member made last night, and he did nOot make any cOonditiQon about it then. ~e is making a canditian now. I am informed by the Victa["ian Wheat· growers CQorporation that fOor the whole of the w:£eat marketed t.hrough the POOJ fQor the ·seasa.n! 191\3-24 the price that will be paid to the grlhvers will be 48. 9d. pet bushel, nOot 4s. 8~d., as stated by the hOon,. orable member for Boroondara.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-I said 4s. 8ld. Mr. HOGAN.-The honarable member

said 4s. 8~d. 1 have the statement from which he quoted, and that he was rather shy about last night. He wauld not tell us from what he was quoting. The hon­orable member stated that the average

Wheat [2 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 673

price paid by the private buyers was 45. 6id. per bushel for the 1923-24 wheat. My infOormatiOon is that it was 45. 4d.

Mr. GREENWOooD.-Where do they get those figures from ~ .

Mr. HOGAN.-From a knowledge 01 the price that was offered by the Oopen· market people right throughout the sea· son. The great bulk of the wheat was bOought by the Oopen-market people ·at the beginning of the season in 1923, and they started out with the price of 3s. lId. per bushel.

Mr. WETTENHAL~~-It is ouly an odd farmer whO' gets a big price.

lVh. HOGAN.-Yes. The private buyers paid as low as 3s. 10d., 3s. lId., and 4s. per bushel fOor last season's wheat, and the great bulk of the farmers sold at that price. It was only a few fortunate and wise farme,rs who knew that the wheat was worth more who held on tOo it, and by ho.lding on to' it, were enabled to get the higher price that ruled at the end of the season. But, on the average, the farmers who sOlId to the private buyers got only 4s. 4d. per bushel fOor the 1923-24 season, while every grower who put his wheat into the voluntary Pool will receive 4s. 9d. per bushel. That is not merely an estimate, because there is nOo doubt as to what the growers w hOo put their wheat into the voluntary Poo.I will receive.

1\1r. DEANY.-There is doubt as to the figures of the private firms; they can only be an estimate.

Mr. HOGAN.-That is sO', but it is public property that the me'll who put their wheat into. the voluntary Pool will get 4s. 9d. per bushel.

Mr. GREENwooD.-What abOout the previous year 1

Mr. HOGAN.-The private buyers dio give a higher average price than the Pool that year.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-They dropped a lot Oof money.

Mr. HOGAN.-They did two things, They made a mIstake, inasmuch as they paid a certain price at the Oopening Oof the season in 1922, but, instead of wheat keeping at that price 01

rising, as they might have anticipated, the market drOopped.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-But the farmer gOot the, money.

Mr. HOGAN.-Of course, he did. There is no dispute about that. The wheat-buyers, as the honOorable member for Lowan said, lost on the transaction.

Mr. DEANy.-They dOo lose sometimes 7

Mr. HOGAN.-They did lose money in 1922-23. The honorable Inember has not madel that disco,ve'ry.

Mr. DEANY.-YoU halve d~uied t.ha,t up to nOow.

.Mr. HOGAN.-No[lsense! Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-1'1rhey win more

often than they lose. Mr. HOGAN.-FOor 1923-24 t.he volun­

tary Pool is paying 48. 9d. per bushel to t.he farmers whOo marketed their wheat through it. The farmers whol sOold to the wheat merchants Oobtained. an average of 4s. 4d. per bushe1. That is a difference of 5d. per bushel in favorur of those who marketed their wheat thrOough the POOlI. In 1922-23 the average price paid by the PoO'I was 48. 9.78d. and the average price paid by priva,te buyers 5s. 2d., an advan­tage of 4.22d. tOo the fa.rmers who sold their whelat in the open marke,t. In 1921-22 the average price paid by the Pool was 5s. 1.847d. and the average price paid by privatel buyers was 4s. 10d., an advantage OIf 3.847d. in favour of the g~Oowers who sold through the PooL It ~Ill be seen that Qon the three years' opera­twns the,re was a great advantage to the farmers whO! utilized the Po'o!.

1\1r. DEANy.-NOo; it. was the other way ro,und.

1\1r. HOGAN.-In 1921-22 the farmers who used the POOol got 3.847d. per bushel mOlTe than the farmers who SOold their wheat jn the open ma.rket. In 1922-23 the !armers whOo utilized the open market re~e.lVed 4.22d. rno["e than those whOo utIlIzed the Pool, and for 1923-24 the fa,r­mers who utilized the Pool will receive 5d. more than those whQo utilized the open market. But there is another cOonsidera­tion. . As a result of the organized marketmg through the Pool a substantia,l benefit was conferred on the whO'le market ~)Ut the men whO! did nQot put their wheat mto the PooI and who made no sacrifice at all for it received as much advantagel ,.

as those whOo did. Mr .. EGGLEsToN.-Then the PQooil. mea,llS

a sa.cnfice ~ Mr. HOGAN.--Not at all; but the

honorrable member for Hampden who. did not use the Pool, received as mu.~h benefit, !r0n:;t ~t as those who did use it, and he IS . r.I~mg on the backs of those who are u tlhzmg this ma.chin€ry. . Mr. DEANy.-Now we knOow all about It.

Mr. nOGAN.-The hOonOorable member now knows al little. Thel honolTable mem­ber for St. Kilda asked for evidence that

674 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] , Marketing Bill.

the POQlI system was better than the, open marke,t system, and he asked for it in such a way as to show he was quit.e cer­tain it could nOit be given. I will now give him some of the evidence. I believe that even a voluntary Pool confers some advantage upon the wheat-growers, but it does not confer nearly as much advan­tacre 0111 them and the St,a,te, generally as a co~pulsorry Poo~ will aoufe1r. In com­menting on the first compulsory Pool, the A ge, on the 28th F€rbruary, 1916, said-

Before the wheat scheme was established the farmers had berrun to sell their wheat at 2s. 6d. and 2s. 9d. pe~ bushel. A!a.rmi.st s.tateme~ts were being publis.hed, possIbly mspIred wIth the object of bearmg the market, to the effect that the price this year would be as low as 2s.

The Pool was formed, and this is what occurred: The price the farmers obtained under the wheat scheme that year was between 5s. and 5s. 6d. a bushel, arid the difference between 5s. and 5s. Bd. as realized by the Pool and 2s. and 2s. 6d. at which the farmers were selling before the Pool was formed represents the djf­ference between the Pool and the open market that year.

'Mr. EGGLESToN.-There was no open market. There had to be a Pool that vear. • J Mr. HOGA.N.-It is a contrast be-tween thel open market and the first year O'f the Pool. The farmers were being offered 2s. and 2s. 6d. a bushel in' the open market, and if the open market had been continued they would have had to sell at that. However, the first Pool in Australia was formed, and the farmers got 59. O'r 5s. 6d.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The Minis­ter has quoted what the Age said in 191~. Will he now quote what the Age saId last week ~

Mr. HOGAN.-I will leave that to the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. GREENWooD.-Let me ask you what is the position.

Mr. HOGAN.-The honorable mem­ber occupied a full hour, and should have been able to put the position from every angle. .

Sir AqlxANDER PEAcocK.-He blew you out on the Scripture.

Mr. HOGAN.-I will come to that. N ow I want to re-ply to the pleas which have been made by members of the Oppo­sition that this question should be sub­mitted to a -referendum. What incon-

sistency is there? There is a legal adage that only people with clean hands should be allowed to a pproach the court. Let me explain the application of that adage in this matter. Honorable members opposite aTe asking for a refer­endum. In 1921 there was a re­ferendum of the whe,at-growers of Victoria, and those very honorable mem­bers and their Government refused to abide by the decision. The Royal Agri­cultural Society, through its secretary, Mr. Schweiger, took a referendum of wheat-growers in 1921 as to whether they would have a Pool or the open market. Here is a quotation on the subject from the Argus of the 13th July, 1921-

Referring to the figures of the wheat Pool ballot published yesterday, the secretary of thf'l Chamber of Agriculture (Mr. H. Schweiger) said that a further analy;s.is showed that the second preference votes of those who favoured a growers' Pool were strongly in favour of Go­vernment control, rather than an open marke-t,. The actual figures were :-For Government wheat Pool, 12,140; for open market, 1,002.

That shows that the wheat-growers told the party then in power that they wanted a Government Pool, but the Government said, "N 0; nothing of the kind. Out with it." N ow the members of the same party say that they want a referendum . On this question their hands are not clean. They refused to abide by the decision which was arrived at in 1921, and they have no right whatever to be pleading for another referendum now.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-But you are so satisfied that the majority of the wheat­gro;ers are in favour of this compulsory Pool ~

Mr. HOGAN.-Yes, I am satisfied. Several honorable members on the Oppo-sition side want to know what advantage this Pool will give to the wheat-grower. The honorable member for St. Kilda ap­pears to be certain that it will not give the wheat-grower any advantage at all. Let me mention one great advantage which it will give him. If the open market obtains, and agents buy wheat at country railway stations in December, \ January, and February, it will be found that when it is brought down to the sea­board and stacked, it will gain consider­ably in weight. If there is no Pool, that great gain will go to those who handle the wheat in the open market.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-Is it not represented in the price?

Wheat [2 OCTOBER, 1924.J Marketing Bill. 675

Mr. HOGAN.-The honorable member for St. Kilda asked for evidence, and he might be quiet while I give it. .

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-That . IS

ve'ry good. You were interjecting all the time.

Mr. HOGAN.-Before I rose the Leader of the Opposition complained again and again that I was saying no­thing. Whether I keep silent or whether I speak he is not satisfied.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-But yon are resenting interjections.

1\1'.1'. HOGAN.-The honorable mem­ber for St. Kilda asked me a specific ques­tion, and . before I can complete my answer he wants to interrupt me. I am objecting to that. Of course. it is not accidental. He is doing it deliberately. So enormous is the increase in the weight of wheat purchased in the dry areas of the north and the MalIee and the Wim­mera, and brought to the seaboard and stacked, that during the years of the Pool, notwithstanding the ravages of the mice, the actual number of bushels marketed exceeded the number of bushels pur­chased.

Mr. OMAN.-I do ~ot dispute that; but it is a fact that wheat coming from the stacks in parts of this State was lighter in February in Melbourne than on weighbridges in the country. You know that?

Mr. HOGAN.-I do not know th;t. On the average, there is a great increase. in weight. The advantage that the Poo,I confers is that ,the enhancement will go to the grow~r, but if there is only the open market, it will go to the private buyers.

Mr. TouTcIIER.-Oould not that take place under a voluntary Pool?

}tIro HOGAN.-Yes. The honorable member for St. Kilda wanted 'some evi­dence as to any harm that the private buyer did to farmers in the open market. He wanted to be shown some detriment infl.icted upon them. He .appears to be quite satisfied that the desire of the Go­vernment and the wheat-growers to pro­vide an organized marketing system to avoid the losses occasioned by the market being controlled by outside agencies is quite unjustified. He says that there is no need for anything of this sort," and that the wheat-buyers do everything in the interest of the farmers, and never do

anything in their own interest, which would be against the farmers.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I never said any­thing like that.

Mr. HOGAN.-That is the natural in­ference to be drawn from what the hon­orable member did say. The honorable member for Lowan pointed out that dur­ing the existence of the voluntary and compulsory Pools farmers have :tcquirecl a great deal of knowledge about the mar­keting of their products. Actions which were taken a few years ago against their interests have been disclosed; but they cannot take place now because of the ad­ditional knowledge which farmers have acquired. If it were not for this further information which has been obtained, the wrongs done by buyers a few years ago would c.ontinue to be imposed upon them to-day. I want to read, for the benefit of honorable member~, a petition submitted by middlemen to the Oommissioner of Railways in Queensland in 1903. It is a remarkable document, and I want the contents placed on record in Hansard. The petition is signed by Denham Bros., J. Jackson & Co., Howes Bros. & Co., R. Raine, Robert :Millar, and Chas. Taylor & 00. Mr. Denham subsequently became Premier of Queensland, and Mr. Taylor is a prominent figure in the political life of Queensland to-day.

}tIro WEST.-1903 is a good while back. Mr. HOGAN.-It is; but still, the

petition supplies evidence which the hon­orable member for St. Kilda wants me to give him-PETITION FROM PRODUCE AGENTS, ETC.,

IN BRISBANE TO THE COMMISSIONER FOR RAILWAYS.

6th February, 1903. We, the undersigned, would be thankful if

you would kindly take some action with regard to newspapers getting the fullest informa,t>ioll with reference to consignments which are sent to ourselves from time to time. What we allude to is the practice that ,the Courier has made lately of publishing lists giving the truck numbers, from whence the trucks come, and the prices that the goods are sold at. Of course, we are aware that you cannot do any­thing to prevent them going to the shed and taking down the prices that produce brings, but, on the other hand, you could assist us greatly in giving such instructions as would ensure -a litt.le privacy in our business trans­actions.

We understand the ,manner in which the re: presentatives of the paper get t.heir informa­tion is that they go and look at the little ticket which is attached to every truck, giving the truck number, and from where the truck

676 Wheat i ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

comes. Might we suggest that these tickets should not be on the trucks at all. Also, that books of the railway giving information about the place of loading of trucks be kept private, and only furnished to such individuals as belong to our offices. You can readily understand it is \'ery annoying, after sending buyers to the country and paying the farmers spot cash at the places where the stuff is grown, for the in­formation to be flashed all over the place that their special lines of stuff made such-and· such a price. We don't object to farmer,s having a general idea that produce brought fr:om such a price to such a price, according to quality, but we do strongly object to such information lJeing published as would en3Jble the farmer to identify his particular lines.

We would esteem it a great favour if you would kindly instruct all officers of yours who have to do with advice notes, also those who are in possession of the books with the informa­tion regarding where the truck is from, to kindly keep this information strictly private, and not to give it ,to any representative of .the newspapers.

Mr. EGGLEsToN.-They would not be in favour of a voluntary Pool.

Mr. HOGAN.-Wluittheyarein favour of is not allowing the farmers to know what price their produce realized.

Mr. DowNw.A.RD.-These' conspiracies against the public are quite common.

Mr. HOGAN.-Possibly the 'honorable member. for St. Kilda does not realize the significance of what I have just read. The point is that information was not to be supplied to the newspapers by the Railway Department in Brisbane which would permit of the farmers knowing what their produce realized.

Mr. GREENWOoD.-They had no objec­tion to a general knowledge of the trade being disclosed.

Mr. HOGAN.-There was a strong ob­jection to the disclosure of anything which would enable a farmer to identify his particular produce.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-Was this produce purcha;sed by the merchants, or being sold on consignment ~ That makes a vital difference.

Mr. HOGAN.-The point I waut to make is that those who signed this peti­tion did not want the newspaper to pub­lish any particulars showing what the goods in a particular truck realized. That information was to be denied to the far­mers, whether they sold the goods at a tlountry railway station or consigned them to Brisbane to be sold on com.mission.

Mr. TouTcHER.-It is a question as to who owned the goods.

. Mr. HOGAN.-If the goods were sen1 to Brisbane to be sold on commission, they belonged to the farmers. I have just answered that question put to me by the honorable member for St. Kilda. If the m~rchant bo?ght the goods at a country raIlway statIOn, of course they were his property. But all goods we're not so pur­chased. I think the great bulk of them were sent to Brisbane to be sold -on com­mISSIOn.

Mr. DEANY.-YOU have no evidence of that.

Mr. HOGAN.-What these people asked for in the petition was that no in­formation should be published so that the farmer could nQlt identify goods in a par­ticular truck, nQl ma,tter whethe,r they were sold Q1n cQlIIl1llission or purchased at ~ co,uutry railway station. We expect apologies from the honorable member for Warrnambool, the honorable member for Sta,well, and the honorahle, member for St. Kilda for tactics of this sort. That is commerce-the wonderful institution the honorable member for Hampden ap­plauded so highly last night. If the far­mers had not acquired knowledge of the marketing of their products through the Pools which have been established, the conditions disclosed in that petition in 1903 would apply to-day as they did then. It is the knowledge which the farmers have now which prevents these things being continued.

. Mr. TouTcHER.-Did the Railway De­partment comply with the request in the petition you read ~

Mr. HOGAN.-No. Mr. TouTcHER.-Then that is all right. Mr. HOGAN.-Tli,e honorable mem-

ber's point is this: If a man went to rob a house, and the owner prevented him from effecting his purpose, it would be all right. I disagree. I do not think it would be all right. To my mind, the motive is of more importance than the actual deed. The honOirable member for St. Kilda also said that the Pool leaves the interests of a large section of the people the plaything of po,litics. The alternative is to leave their interests tOo be the plaything of com­merce. It was also said by the honorable member that the Board was incompetent to manage the Pool.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-I did not. I said it was not so competent as the skilled market.

Wheat [2 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 677

Mr. HOGAN.-I hope the Board will appoint the most capable man as manager tha:t th~y can obtain. That is a duty whICh wIll devolve upon the Board itself. The Bill provides for the way the Board is to be appointed.

Mr. DEANY.-We want to knOlW how the Board will be appointed.

Mr. HOGAN.-I wish the honorable member for Warrnambool would go into the corridor along with the honorable member for St. Kilda, and that they would there thrash out that point fQ1r themselves. On their return ·to the chamber they could tell me what the re­sult of the confere~ce was. I hope, after the Boa,rd is appointed, that it will select for ma?ager a t.hor?ughly competent man, and wIll put hIm III charge of this busi­ness. That is a matter to be left to' the Board itself. It will be for the Board tQ1 a}?point its officer.s. Really the manager WIll b~ responsIble, for the business a.rrangements.

. Mr. OMAN.-The Pool has had good ad­VIsers.

Ml·. HOGAN.-I believe that the hon­orable, member made, considerable use of those con~rolling the open market. I am not surpnsed at that, because he himself is strQingly in favour of the open market. Only to-day he told the honorable mem· ber for Goulburn Valley that he prefer; the open market. .

Mr. OMAN.-But has there been a c~ange in that. policy ~ Are not the ser­VIces of ~hose me~' who were previously ~ngage~ III ~0.nectI~g wheat. and dispos­mg of It, utIlIzed III conneXlOn with the voluntary PoO'l1

Mr. HOGAN.-I suppose that that is so. Complaints have, been made by some honorable members, including, I think, tte honorable member for Boroondara t~at the wheat Pool was using the sel'~ VlC~s of the co-operative companies to takE:' delIvery of the whea,..t, to stack it at the ?ountry railway stations, have it lo,aded III the trucks, sent to the terminus and put on the ships, or stacked at th~, sea­side. I ~ope that~ instead of that being a. defect lll. the BIll, a subject for critj­Clsm and dIsapproval by members, it will prove ~:me of the best features of this piecfl of legIslation.

Mr. OllAN.-It was a system that I in­troduced.

Mr. HOGAN.-Then what is the hon­OI'able member complaining about ~ ~r. OMAN.-I gave, them an oppor­

tumty to coUect from the producers.

lVIr. TUNNE'CLIFFE (to Mr. Oman).­You had to fight a long time to get that. ~r. HOGAN.-A fight was put up ill

thlS House to secure for the cOl-operative companies the right to handle wheat. That fight was put up by the Labour party, and covered a period of some weeks.

Mr. OMAN.-That is not a correct state­ment of the position.

lVh. HOGAN.-It is absolutely true. r hope that the Board will utilize the services o~ the cot-operative companies. There are III those co-operative companies competent men, who, can do this work well. By tha.t means the farmers, who ar.e the shareholders in those CQ1m panies, WIll reap whatever advantage there is to be reaped in connexicm with the handling of the wheat. I now wish tQi refer to the statements made by the Leader of the Opposition. He wanted to know how the consume~ would be he'lped: My answer tQi that. IS, that by substituting brganized marketlllg for haphazard marketing, both producers and consumers will be bene­fited by a reduction in handling charges. The honorable member for Lowan told us. last. night that he, had looked into this phase of the matter, and he pointed ouf that the pre-Pool marketing costs amounted tQi Is. per bushel. The Pool costs for marketing were 8d. per bushel. Tha.t was not the cost in Victoria mere,ly, but the cost here and overseas. There­fore, by substituting the Pool, that is to say, organized marketing, the handling costs were reduced 4d. a bushel, notwith­sta,n.d~ng increases in shipping freights. In addItIOn t·o that, the handling costs here ~n Victoria itself have been decre'ased. The open marke,t hand­ling costs in V icto·ria were 4d. a bushel. In 1922, under the volun­tary Pool, the handling costs in Victoria were reduced to 2.53d. per bushel, in 1923 the amount was the same-2.53d. per bushel~but in 1924 there has been a re­duction to 2.3d. We, have there a savinO' which will benefit the farmer on the on~ hand and the consumer on the other.

Mr. OMAN.-The conditions are not the same.

Mr. HOGA~.-This is the position: Instead of havmg a haphazard, chaotic method of handling' wheat, involving a very considerable expenditure of money, we propose to substitute organized mar­ke~ing . By organizatiOon we do things better and mOore efficiently. At the, same

678 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

time we do the business more economi­cally. That is why the wheat-grOowers, who believe in t.he, Pool, are hopeful. The hOonorable member for Hampden is quite an authority Oon wheat. He made some forecasts last night as to the prices that will be r'ealized through the next Pool. He said that when the wheat came in it might be possible to sell it at 7s. a busheL I do nOot think that that will be the case. In my opinion, the best price obtainable when the wheat cOomes' in will be 6s. 7~d. He went on tOo say, that before, the end Oof the season the wheat may fall to 4s. a bushel. That was a dismal forecast. The only Biblical chara,cter with whom I can cOompare the honOorable membe-r is Jeremiah. In ad­ditiOon to being a Jeremiah in this mat­ter, he is a very bad prophet. He gave a fOorecast in this House Oonly a mOonth ago, on 3rd Septemberr. He then said-

Then there is the question of the wheat Pool. Th~ Government said, "We cannot go wrong on a compulsory wheat Pool." Now, I happened to be sent to represent the Vic­torian Government at a conference with Labour Premiers of other States, and we put up recommendations in favour of a voluntary Pool. In any case, that is a matter which is quite definitely settled to-day. The funds to finance a Pool must be guaranteed by the Commonwealth before the Commonwealth Bank would find the money.

That forecast has already been falsified. The honOorable member went on to say-

I do not think the Government will find the necessary cash available to finance a com­pulsory wheat Pool. In such a matter the growers should be the best judges.

The hOonorable mem ber made two fore­casts, and he said, " The Pool is dead."

Mr. OMAN.-I knew a,t tha,t time that the fa,rmers had practically accepted a vOoluntary Pool.

Mr. HOGAN.-The honorable member did not know anything Oof the kind. He said that the POlOl was dead for the twOo reasons I have indicated. Firstly, he said that the Commonwealth' Bank WOould nOot find the money required, but the COommonwealth Bank is ad­vancing the mOiney. Secondly, he said tha,t the POool cQluld not be financed, whe-reas it is being financed; and thirdly, he said that the, POOlI was dead. We knOow it is not dead, but ve,ry much alive. This modern prophet also said tha,t if the fa,rmers put their wheat into a Pool, wheat would be selling a,t 4s. a bushel befOore the end of the year. There again he is absolutely wrong, and

it is evident that as a prophet he is no gOood a,t all. The hOinorable member for Hampden Oopposes a· compulsory POOlI on the ground tha,t commerce is the bulwa,rk of the country. With that statement I disagree. The bulwark O'f the country is labour. The men who plOough the field, who soow the wheat and tend it while it grows, WhOo garner the harvest when it matures, are, so far as this matter IS

cOlnce,rned, the bulwark ()If the country. It is because the farmers dOl not believe that commerce is a bulwa,rk that they are dissa,tisfied. They want tOi substitut.e fO'r commerce a Pool and Oorganized marketing. By having organized marketing they expelCt, and we expect, that nOot only the fa,rmelrs but the whole community will greatly benefit. The hOln­Oorable member fOor BOorOiondara gave us fl.

Biblical quota,tiOin. He carries Olll a business in Flinders-lane, and we can­not expect him toO ha.ve any knowledge of share farming. He condemned the share farming conditions under the cOon­tract made by Joseph with the farmers in days ()If Oold. He told us that Joseph said to the farmers, " Here is land, here is seed. Plant this seed in the land and of the crop you will take four-fifths, and the Government will take one-fifth." If ,J oseph were to COome back to-day, and were to make a similar offer, I think that every produce1r would becOime a· share fa,rmer. In attempting to contrast the conditions in Biblica.l times with the conditions that elxist to-day, the honOor­able IDBmber came a cropper. I now prOopose, in answer to' the request made by the honolrable member fOir Goulburn VaHey and alsOo by the Lea,der of the Opposition, to deal with the question of the attitude of the Government regard­ing certain amendments that have been suggested tOo the Bill. One of the suggestions made is that we should pro­vide for a larger advance than 3s. 8d, a bushel. That advance is not pro­vided for in the Bill a,t all. We believe that the new season's' whea.t will be wo,rth in the open market 6s. 4~d. a bushel, and that it would be pedectly safe tOo advance more than 3s. 8d. a bushel. We have asked the banks to make the ad­vance more than 3s. 8d., and they are cOlllsideTing our representations. If we can induce the banks to' increase the advance we shall have grea,t ple'asure in making the necessary a,rrangements. 1 think I may say that there is a reasonable

Wheat r2 OCTOBER, 1924.J Marketing Bill. 679

prospect that a higher advance will be obtained.

Sir. ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The ne­gotia tions are still gQiing on ~

Mr. HOGAN.-Yes. With regard to the request fQr the extensiOin of the Pa~'l fOir a longe1r peri ad than Q:n.e year, I announced in my secand-reading spee1ch that we were in favOlur of the Paol as a pe,rmanent institutian, and tha.t we would be prepared to re-enact thel Bill. W €I do not intend that the PaQl shall expire a.t the end Qf ane year . We aTe .firmly of the opinian that it will prove t.Qi be a gO'od thing fOir the Sta,te and fQr the whQle df the people of the State.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Why make provisian fQr OInly the ane year ~

Mr. HOGAN.-If the HOIuse is agree­able to amend the, Bill in tha,t respeot we shaH have the greatest pleasure in ex­tending the period bey and the Qne year ~

Sir ALEXANDER PEACoCK.-Are yau flying a ki te ~

Mr. HOGAN.-NO'. The request for higher remuneratian fQr thel mem­bers Qf the Baard IS a l~latter that affects the wheat-growers alane. The salaries will not be paid by the Gavernment. The maney will nQit CQime out af the ConsQilidated Revenue, but Qiut Qf the praceeds of the sales af wheat. Our Qinly abje<et in restrioting the salaries to be paid was to ensure, firstly, . that the highest amount passible should be available for distribution to the whe,at­grQiwers, aI!,d, secOindly, that the men ap­pointed to the Board should be required to attend to their work, and if they did not that they should nOit be paid. As I have stated, the remuneration of the members Qif the BOlard will be prQivided by the growers and not by the Gorvern­ment, and if the growers say that they are prepared to pay higher sala,ries than we ha,ve suggested we shall have nQi st.rong objection to that alteratiQn being made.

Colonel BOURCHIER.-Could yQiU not provide for salaries of £500 ~

Mr. F,I:OGAN.-We have provided in the Bill that each member of the Board may dr.a,w up to £500, but that would be conditional on his a.ttendanoe. What we wanted tOi ensure was that the members of the BQard would attend to their business, and tha,t if they did not they wauld nor be paid. That was the only considera­tion. If they a.ttend the meetings of the Board they will receive sa.Iaries of £500 per annum. H()Iwever, the Go'Vernment

does not see that any vital principle is in­vohed in the ma.tter. It is not the Go­vernment that is tor prQivide the money but the wheat-grQwers, and if they say, I' We are prepared tQ pay the members of the Board whethe,r they attend the meetings 0[" not," and the House endOirses that, we shaH be prep.ared tOi accept· the decision of the House. I shall now refer to' the cQnstitutiQn of the Board. The Bill prQvides tha,t it shaH consist of three representatives of the wheat-growers and two nominees of tlie Government, and the request has been made that there shall be four wheat-grQwers' representatives. We are prepared to confer with hanorable members abQiut that matter, and to give .cansideration tQ the, request when we reach, in Committee, the clause dealing with it.

Mr. MORLEY.-You arel giving the w hea t-growers everything.

Mr. CARLISLE.-Quite right, tOIO. Mr. HOGAN.-We ha,ve brought for­

ward the Bill fQr the purpose Qf securing the Qrganized ma,rketing of wheat.

Mr. MORLEy.-Not to get the VQtes of the w hea,t-growers 7

Mr. HOGAN.-No, not to get their votes. I shall have a worrd to' sa~ abaut that in a moment. We believe that, as our purpose is to substitute organized marketing fQr haphazard, chaotic market­ing, and as it is the product. of the wheat­grawers with ·which we a.re dealing, it :s reasona,ble that they should have a con­siderable say as to how the business should be managed. Therefore we will give the request tha,t has been made con­sideration. The hanorable member for Harwon sa,ys tha.t t.he Bill is an attem pt on the part of the Government to', get the vat.es of the w heat-grQiwers. He was here in 1921, and he remembelrs well what oc­curred in that. year.

IVIr. l\ioRLEy.-We went to the country on the wheat Pool question.

Mr. HOGAN.-That is SO'. The Labour party was then cansidera bly sma.11er than it is to-day. Prior tOI going to the CQun­try it stood for t.he compulsary Pool, and it w.as not after anybody's vate. The Lawson Government was aefeated in the House on the compulsorv wheat Paol issue, and the Premier asked for a disso­lutiQn. He obtained a dissolutian, and we went before the electors and fought for the- compulsory wheat Pool. Every Qne 0'.£ our members, with the exception of one in the metroPQlis, was returned,

680 Wheat [AOOEMBLY.j Marketing Bill.

and we won two new seats. The honor­able member fa'!' Gunbower, I think, said tha,t at that election the FaiI'mers Union lost a seat-that of Mr. Gibson, whQi had represented Grenville-on the wheat POQiI issue. It is true tha,t they lost his seat. but it was nQlt because, of the wheat Poo,i issue, and tha,t is shown by the fact that the man whQl defea,ted lV1r. GibsQin was also in favour of the Pool. The present member fOIl' Grenville will vo,te fQir the POiol now, and he voted for the PQlol in the divisiO'n that took place in thel House after the ~lection o~f 1921. Mr. Gibson did not lose his seat because of the wheat Pool issue at all, but because Grenville was a Labour constituency. The electors of Grenville sent into Parliament a m.an to succeed Mr. Gibson, whQi voted On the' wheat Pool question in the same way as Mr. Gibson would ha,ve voted.

Colonel BOURCHIER.-Are you in favour o,f the growers electing a chairman of the Bo'ard?

Mr. HOGAN.-We have not considered that question yet.

Colonel BouRcHIER.-That is one of the principal questiQlns.

Mr. HOGAN.-I made a nQlte of four of the points raised, but I missed that one. . Mr. TO?TcHER.-What was your idea m proposmg that tWQl members of the Board should represent the Government? Vvas that for the cQinsumers' sake.?

Mr. HOGAN.-It wa,s to protect the Govern.ment. ":e have. to guarantee the ba:uks m connexlOn with the financing Q1f thIS great undertaking, which will involve au expenditure of £6,000,000, £7 000 000 or £8,000,000. To, ens ure that' the' vast sum. involved would be safeguarded we prOVIded fOil' Government representa,tion on the Board.

Mr. TouTcHER.-A very.prQlper thing, to'O.

Mr. HOGAN.-We also wanted to en­sure that the whQlle of the people of this State whO' are behind the guarantee of the GQivernment would be protected. The Leader of the Opposition said that, as 3-

result of the 1921 elections, a ma.jority of members opposed tal a compulsQiry Pool were returned. That is not correct. The A.rgus, in a, leading a,rticle on the 26th September last, made the same statement. It said-

No matter what may take place in. the As­sembly, the Legislative Council has a clear duty should this Bill ever reach that Chamber Three years ago there was an appeal to th~

country on this question. The dissolution was granted to decide that, and nothing else. The electors pronounced against a compulsory Pool and the project was abandoned. '

~h.e statement of the Leader of the Oppo­SItIon .and the statement of the A'l'gus ,are both mCQlrrect. The voice of the people in 1921 was in. fa:vour of a compulsory Pool, and a maJonty of members of this House were returned pledged to enact a compulsory Pool. But for reasons which they themselves are best able to e,xplain some of them did not adhe,re to the com~ pulsory Pool. Some of them agreed to a voluntary. Pool in its place, but that was the VOIce ofPa,diament not thE: voice Q1f the electors.. The v~ice of the ejectors was clear and unmistakable. A majo'rity of the members of this House were returned at the elections in 1921 pledged to a compulsory Government Pool, and that was the- last occasion )n which the people expressed t,heir opiniOll1 on the subject.

Colo.nel BOU~CHIER.-Do yoru think you WIll get it thrQiugh anQlther place ~

Mr. HO(}AN.-I think we will. I will point. out, in conclusion, that thQlugh certam members of thel Opposition say they are in favour of the voluntary Pooll now,' and were in favour of it after the' election of 1921 during tha.t elecltion campaign, not only were they opposed to a compulso'ry ·Pool, but were opposed to' a voluntary Pool as well. They opposed both compul­sory and voluntary Pools, and if the voice· of the people had been as the Leader of the Opposition said last night, and they ha.d said that they were against the Pool and returned a majQlrity of NatiQlnalists, there would not have been a voluntary Pool nor a compulsory Pool.' But the voice of the people' said "We want a Pool." Certain honQlrabl~' members cOom­promised with their consciences, and al­though they had opposed bOoth compulsory and vOlluntary PQlols at the elections after the elections they agreed to a vol~ntary Pool. I think I have covered ,all the points raised, and I trust honorable. mem­bers will be satisfied that they h~ve all the information it is possible for me to give them ..

Mr. OMAN.-You have not touched clause 24 yet.

~1:r. HOGAN.-There is no difficulty about ~hat. Clause 24 is an exact copy of sectlOln 18 of the Viotorian Wheat­grorwe-rs Corpora,t.iOlIl Act tha,t was passed by t,he honolrable member's Go'V'ernment

Wheat [2 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 681

ill 1921. It was passed by. the Govern­ment Oof which the honora,bIe member fox Castiemaine was Premier, and in which the Lea,der of the Opposition and the honorable member for Hampden were Ministers.

Mr. OMAN.-And that Act is still in force.

1fr. HOGAN.-It is still in force. We have taken seetion 18 from the Victorian "'\Vheat-growers COorporation Act and in­cluded it in the Bill now before the House, in which it appears as clause 24. Not one word has been altered, but I do not suppose that will make it any mo're accepta,ble to' the honoi'able member for Hampden. He was iij. favour of it in 1921, and put it into the Bill which his Government passed, but now he wants to say tha.t it is bad. N ow that I ha,ve told him it is his own child he ought to regard it with very friendly feelings.

Mr. WEAVER.-I am sorry that my voice is not very good to-day, but I tlllSt that honOorable members will bear with me for a few minutes. I am now, as I have been for the last six OT seven years, decidedly in favO'ur Oof a compulsory Pool, provided it is managed by a growers' Board. We hea.;r a, lot frO'm the press and from members of the Liberal party about the proposed PooL It is said that it. is going to be a sOocialistic PaOlI. I do nO't take that view at all. I say that if the growers are intelligent enough to hew their way into the back country and pro­duce wheat, they will, with very little' trainin~, be quite equal, in my Oopinion, to marketing that wheat. The voluntary Pool has done fairly well. I was one of those who felt practically compelled to accept the volunta;ry Pool after my re­turn by the' electors in favour of a com­pulsory Pool. While we knew that a proposal for a compulsory Pool could be put thrOough this House all right, WE;

realized that there was no chance of get­ting it through anO'ther place, and as t.b.e harvest was right on us, and we were facing a falling market from 7s. 8d. a bushel, it was absolutely essentjal to have some sort of poorl in ocder to steady the wheat on the market. That was the sole reason why I accepted a voluntary POool at that juncture. In connexion with the voluntary POool the grelat difficulty is in regard to chartering. When the Oopera­tion Oof a Pool is limited to one year the Board is hampered. It dOoes not know whether it will be there for another year

or not, and, therefore, it cannot arrange charters at a suitable time oon the marke'G. Every yerar the consideration of such a measure as this runs into October, and it is too late to get 'che ships to take the wheat away. If a Pool coontinued fOor three years the Boa;rd would be in a better position to make a.rrangements. There is another difficulty, and that is in regard to competition. I do nOot Oobject to com­petition, but in this case it is respOonsible for the buying of inferior wheat for local consumption and eJfPOort. I have seen wheat on waggons, and there has been a. buyer, and perhaps a Pool agent, and the owner has said to the Poorl agent, "wen, if you take this wheat I will let you have the rest." There may be a very inferiOor lOoad of wheat, some oof it noot fit foor human coonsumption, and that is taken at t,he same price, and goes into the wheat stacks, and is probably exported. The market as a whOole has suffered, and nO't the man who grew that particular wheat. There should be only oone receiv­ing agent at each station, and all inferior wheat shoould be sent tor the central depot and doocked according to its value. This inferior wheat undoubtedly depreci­ates the value Oof the grain, and if we had a compulsory PO'ol we would be able to fix a reject price, which would be fair to the man who grew it. A good deal

,has bee'll said about the price fOor local consumption; perhaps not so much as will be said later. It seems tOo me a fair thing to include holding and handling charges on wheat for local consumption. \Ve have done that in the past and we have not exploited the con'sumers. Can the consumers expect the same considera­tion from speculators ~ It is not a good thing too have speculators in foodstuffs at all. If growers were to get the export parity, plus holding charges, it would be a fair thing. Supposel we fix the export parity at Is. 6d. a bushel, it would mean Id. a loaf.' I understand that the ave'f­age consumption of bread by a family is four or five loaves a week. SOo that it would mean only an increase Oof 4d. Oor 5d. a week.

Mr. WARDE.-Are yOoU speaking of 4-lb. loaves 1

Mr. WEAVER.-Yes. From 18 to 20 4-lb. loaves of bre'ad are obtained from a bushel of wheat. The honoi'able mem­ber fo~ Toorak said the Bill did not guarantee adequate protection for cO'n­sumers. We, hOowever, are only asking

682 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.J Marketing Bill.

for the import· parity, which means the cost of getting wheat from other States j it would be only 2d. Oil' 3d. a bushel. It is ridiculous toO say that we desire to' ex­ploit the local consumer. We have no such intention, and I have too high a regard for the wheat-growers to' believe tha.t the1y would do such a thing even if the,y had the opPOIrtunity. The in­crease which I mentioned would be scarcely noticeable, in the expenditure of the ave,rage family on bread. The hon­Q1rable member for Toorak also, said that he disagreed entirely with the proposed amendment of the Leader of the Coun­try party regarding the constitution at the Board. We want a growers' Board. The honorable member fOir Hampden has told us that the growers have' not suffi.­cient inteUigence to' manage a. business of this sort.

lVIr. OMAN.-I said nothing of the sort. I am in favour of the present Board be­ing a,ppointed if this Bill is passed.

l\1r. WEAVER.-I think that if men have sufficient inteUigence with the ad­vice and e,xperience they get to grow wheat, they have sufficient inteUigence to market it. It is rather remarkable that these" farmers" from St. Kilda, Toorak, and Boroondara have taken all at once such an interest in the consumer. Vil e ha ve been led tOo believe that they 'were friends of the real farmers, but now they have come out in their true colours. The fact is that thely are speaking for the merchants. ) I dOo not know why mer­chants shorll1.d come intO' this business at all. Weare prepared to deal with the Commonwealth or any other bank in pro­viding an overdraft, and we want to' do justice to everyone, who has the handling of whea.t. I know of a. man who sold whelat at 5s. Id. pe,r bushel last week at the, Royal Agricultural Socie,ty's Show, and he was ready to swallow me because I advQlcated a. compulsory Pool. He would be pleased to get out of his COIl­

tract, because he could. now get 6s. Mr. WA'RDE.-Ihe ou. 1 Ian

CQimmission found tha,t they did not pay London parity for the season they in­vestigated.

. Mr. WEAVER.-We do not want to give these ~en an Oopportunity to make undue profits, neither do we want them to incur losses. Vi.,,T e dOl not want then' in the business at all. I have already said that I dO' not think we snaIl get much considera,tion from the speculato'r. I speak from experience. I believe that

persons of th.e name I have the honour to bear are growing more wheat at pre­sent than that of any honOorable member of this House, SOl I can speak with experi­ence. In 1914 I had wheat which I car­ried over from the 1913 harvest. I had 2,000 bags stored after selling s~:fficien t of my harvest to meet urgent bIlls. I had an offer of 4s. 9d. per bushel for that wheat, and I was bluffed into selling it by the N atio'llal Government of the day. I talked the matter over with my wife before I did so. A fortnight afterwards the wheat was s01d at 5s .. 3d. per bushel. Some time, later, when I w.anted wheat very badly, I went to Mr. Harold Darl­ing, who, I must say, on the whole, treated me very w·eH, and I was able to obtain 150 bags out of the POool, on pay­ing holding and handling charges. Subse­quently, I found I was 60 or 70 bags short. At that time the wheat was be­ing cleared off pretty quickly, and we did nOot know where it had got to. In the end, I had to pay -9s. _ a bushel for some of mv own wheat which I had sold at 4s. 9d. If that is fair trading I do not want any more O'f it. It was the dis­closure of facts of this sort which se­cured my electiQin as a member of this House. I lost £1,000 on that transaction. Perhaps I should not put)t that way. -I did not get £1,000 to which I was en­titled. We are quite capable of handl­ing our own wheat and doing it in a way which will compare very favorably with the handling of it by merchants. I met an agent only last Saturday who ~ave me a dressing do.wn for my attitude towards the compulsory wheat Po'O~. He said, " What is the good of your talking about getting 3s. lld. per bushel for your wheat iast year. I gO't 5s. 2d. fOor my wheat." I replied, " I can quite understand that, You are a m.an who can ,afford to' hold your wheat for the peak of .the ma.rket. There a.re others whO' cannot afford tQi do so." Of course, if ouecan hold one's wheat inde1finitely, waiting for the peak of the market, one can O'btain the best price o,ffering fO'r the year. Many w hea t­growers canno-t do that. They have to put the wheat on to the market and take their chance·. The price of wheat is, of course, gOoverned by wo.rJd pa,rity. In re­gard to the first advance to' be made for wheat, I do think that the Go,vernment should st,rain a point. The Common­wealth Bank must recognize the splendid security tha.t they have in the wheat

Wheat [2 OC'I'OBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 683

itself. There is nOi possibility, as fa.r as any human beinK can see, of whea,t drQP­ping 20 per cent. in value. Therefore, it does appear to me that it would be only reasOinable to say, "We will give yQU 8U per cent. of the value of the wheat on the first advance." This is a vital matter. If the farmers can get a 75 per cent. Qr an 80 pep cent. advance on their wheat. there will be no squealing among them about ha,ving to go into the Pool. I am SQrry to think that our Nationalist friends are not sympathetic with the PooL SOime of them state that they will vote against the Country party's amendments provided the second reading of the Bill is carried. They evidently _want to make the Bill unsuitable to us and to the coun­try. This is an extraordinary positiQon for them tOo take up. They will make no genuine effort to improve the Bill. I cannOit understand the attitude Qf N a­tiQnalist members in this ma.ttell'. They do appear to me to be out to damage the CQuntry party. We want a good Bill, one that will be in the interests of the country as a whole, and nOot merely suit­able to the requirements Oof the wheat­grQwer. I tell hQnorable members quite fninklv that if the wheat-grolwer dOles nOit get a fair deal he will most certainly pro­duce less wheat. Tha,t would be disadvan­tageous to the country. A very importa.nt feature in legislation of this kind is that the management shall be in the hands Qof the Board. It is also very importa.nt that we should insist on the chairman being appointed by the BOiard. It is ridiculous to say that the appointment shQould be in the hands of the Govern­ment. We do nQt know what Government will be in porwer, whether it will be a Labour Gov€rnment 001' a Liberal GQvern­ment.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACocK.-Anyway, there will be some Government.

Mr. WEA VER.-N 01 doubt, unless the millenium arrives, and III that ca::;e we may not need Qne. Every Board of the kind shQuld apPQint its Qwn chairman. It is clear to my mind that it would be wrong to have the chairman appointed by the GQovernor in Council. HQowever, I feel convinced that the Government will cOonoede the point we are asking. An' amendment can be mQved in COommittee to get Qover the trouble. It is a very re­markable thing that the arguments ad­duced by' Nationalist members fro111 this side Qof the House against the

Bill a're practically the same as those put forward by traders and the commer­cial travellers who represent bU3iness firms. ThQose persons are out. to kill Qour party. They want to destroy Oour orga­nization. We hear exactly the same argu­men ts frOom agents in the country. We know that petitiorns against the Bill are being circulated. I ha,ve here a circular distributed by H. R. Carter and Com­pany. There are many such petitions. They have been distributed at shows, and come from business Qorganizations. I ha ve one here which reads-

We, the undersigned wheat-growers of Vic­toria, desire to express our determined opposi­tion to the Compulsory Wheat Pool Bill now before the State Parliament, and to enter our emphatic protest against the same.

That is what the wheat agents are dOing at the present time. I have brought the rna tter under the notice Qof the House in order to Qopen the eyes of the farmers, a number of whom do not understand the source from which these peti ti 011 S

emanate. Many Q1f the farmers are sign­ing these petitiQlns. They are dOling so because they do not understand that the're is an Qorganized opposition against the Pool. It is really a sca11dalous state Q1f affairs. SOomething has been said about the increase of weight. It is interesting to note that in the 1915-16 Pool the,re was an increase of 117,000 bushels. In 1916 -17 -the mice plague year-there was a loss of 1,250,000 bushds. In 1917-18 there was a gain of 118,000 bushels; in 1918-19 a gain of 317,000 bushels; in 1919-20 a gain Qof 16,000 bushels; and in 1920-21 a gain of 146,000 bushels. On the whQole, under the CQompulsory Pool, there was a net gain of 8,000 bushels, not­withstanding the terrifio losses caused by mice. There is anQother phase of the question that appeals to me. I fully ex­pect that sOome of my kind friends will accuse me Qof leaning towards Socialism. I refer to the question of bags. At pre­sent we have to pay 5d. a bushel' Qon Qour wheat for bags. That is a pretty serious tax. It represents, perhaps, the, prOifit a farmer is making. I think the BOiard should be empowered to buy the bags. It WQuld be a simple matter, but a very im­portant Qone from the point of view Qof the wheat-grower. We knQow what the crop

"is likely to be, and the number of bags that will be required. FOT a 40,000,000-bushel crop we should require 13,000,000 bags. It is c'nly a fair thing that the Board should handle the bags required.

684 Wheat l A~SEMBLY. J Marketing Bill.

They would not be wasted. After the wheat harvest they would be suitable for pO'tatO'es and oniO'ns. There are plenty of people who would want them.

Mr. TouTcHER.-Why stop at that 1 Why should they not supply our clothes, and food, and other things"

Mr. WEA VER.-T'he hO'norable mem­ber's suggestion might be worth consider­ing. I know that I have to pay £12 for a suit of clothes not a bit better than I was able a few years ago to purchase for £4. We do not ask the business people to carrv on at a loss. At the same time, we are emphatically of opinion that the wheat-grower should not be asked t.o caITY on at a loss.

Mr. ANGus.-The proposed remedy is a risky thing.

fMr. WEAVER.-It is also a very risky thmg, when one is a wheat-grower, to place himself at the mercy of speculators. I happen to live in the electorate repre­sen ted in this House by the honorable member for Gunbower. I know the wheat-growers there.

Mr. HUGHEs.-Have you ever voted for that honorable member ~

Mr. WEAVER.-Never, and I do not think I ever shall vote for him while he is opposed to t.he compulsory wheat Pool.

Mr. ANGus.-Other farmers in my electorate have shown better judgment.

Mr. WEAVER.-There are only a, few wheat-growers in the honorable member'S electorate.

Mr. ANGus.--There are n1O<r~ than ill your electorate, anyway.

Mr. WEA VER.-I can assure the hon­orable member that he has not voiced the 'view of the majority of wheat-growers in his electorate.

Mr. ANGus.-I claim that I do voice t,heir views.

Mr. WEA VER.-And I say the hon­orable member does nOit. Ho,weve,r, that is his responsibility., and not mme.

Mr. ANGUs.-The point was prvved at the last election-.

Mr. WEAVER.-It is impossible to prove it because the honorable member cannot lmo'w whether the whe,at-growers voted fo·r him. I am a wheat-grOlwer. I did not vote fOir him, ,and I exercised my judgment in the matter. However, we do not want to be personal in these matters. No good can come OIut of that kind of thing. I do assure the honorable mem­ber fOir Gunbower that he is misrepre­senting a lot of whe,a.t-groiWers in his

electorate. There is one other point to which I desire to call attention. I think it is a relasonable request to' make that next year we should take a referendum of the wheat-growers who nave put their wheat into the Pool. We should then be able to ascertain what they want, and if it was found that they were not satisfied with the Pool, there would be some" justifica­tion for asking the Government to repeal the Act. We have considered this ma,tter carefully, and we think that would be the fairest thing to do. It is our desire to me-et the wishes of the, whe,at-growe~s.

Some honorable members have been put­ting up arguments for the speculators, and not for the whea,t-growe1rs. It would be dangerous to interfere with an industry ill such a way that the men engaged ill it would not get full value for their

'labour, but to cut out the speculators would probably do more good than harm. I have no doubt that the second reading of this Bill will be agreed to, but we trust that the Government will be prepared to accept the amendments which we have submitted. I appeal to the Nationalist members of the House to regard the :rp.at­ter from a. wheat-grower's, and not from a. speculator's, point of vie,w. By unduly favouring the speculators, we sb,euld drive many wheat-growers out of the Lusiness altogether. Whatever is done will, I hope, be in the interests, not only of the whe'at-growers, but of thel State as a. whole.

Mr. BOND.-I support this measure. I do not do so as the representative of a wheat-growing constituency. I am not engaged in agricultural pursuits, but at all times I have been deeply interested in the farming community, and I woulcl h~ the last person in the world to attempt to force an injustice on them. I do not think that this compulsory Pool win force an injustice on the farming com­munity. I do not intend to put up a de,fence of the general principles of the Bill. That has been done by the Mill­ister of Agriculture. There is, however, one phase of the question to which I desire to refer, and which has not been 'touched upon by previous speakers. Th(: establishment of a. compulsory wheat Pool will be a means of helping along the decentralization movement. Most honor­able members of this House' have pro­daimed themselves to be disciples of de-

Wheat [2 OCTOBER, 1924.J Marketing Bill. 68&

centraliza.tion, and the passing of this Bill will, in my opinion, bring us to the first milestone along that road. I was pleased. to hear the Minister of Agriculture say, when introducing the Bill, tliat it was the intention of the Government that wheat should be shipped at Portland. In the early days of th~ State, Portla~d was an important shippmg port, at whlCh vessels called to unload and to load produce. Of late years, the centralizing pOolicies _ Oof previous Governments have always tended in the direction of the development of the port of MelbOourne. The result was that, as a port, Portland be?ame practi.cally ex­tinct. It was not untIl we establIshed the cDmpulsory wheat Pool a. few years a~o that the prospects of the port began ag~ln to brighten. The port then got for shIp­ment the wheat to which, from its geographical position, it was entitled. On the expiration of the compulsory Pool, no more wheat was sent to Portland. Dur­ing the time that the compulsory Pool was in existence it was demonstrated that wheat could be efficiently handled at Port­land, but as I have said, with the expira­tion of the compulsory wheat POoOoI, no more wheat was sent to that port. If this Bill is passed, I think that Portland will again be used as an outlet for wheat, and it should get about one-third of the wheat produced in the State. At present, it is not receiving any consideration at all, although it is one of the best outer ports we have in the State. The development of Portland will, I repe,a.t, be a, means of helping along thel decentraliza.tion move­ment, and for that reason alonel the. Bill should receive thel suppo.rt of honorable members.

Mr. }tlcLACRLAN .-As a country member who does not represent a wheat­growing district, I am not in a position to determine whether this Bill is neces­sary or not. I am supporting the mea­sure, but I do so with some hesitancy, be­cause certain information which should have· been furnished either by the Min­ister of Agriculture or the Leader of the COountry party has nOot yet been given to' the House. That information has a very important bearing on what is the main subject of contention in connexion with the Bill, that is compulsion. Compul­sion should only be used in e,xtraordinary circumstances. We all know that a:. Go­vernment Pool is a substantial grant-in-

[35]

aid tOo a selCtiDn of the people. Tha,t is wha,t it stands for, but that is not the point we have tOo determine he.re. The pDint is whether the p:e,ople who grDw wheat are. in s:uch circumstances at present that Immecilate relief IS urp'ent. If we cannOot answer t'hat qU€lsti~n in the affirmative, ,we have nO' mDral right to foroe all and sundry into a Pool. To do that would be to act contrary to the principles we often express, and to the spirit of the age-that is liberty. The other point to be deter­mined is whether commercial morality, so far as the purchasing of wheat is con­cerned, has sunk so low that the wheat­growers cannot get an honest deaI from the buyers, and they are forced in con­sequence of that to ask the Government to protect them frOom pO'verty. If tha,t is the position, it de1J!ands consideration. 1 do not believe that that is the position. I think that in all walks of life there are honest men, and in connexion with the wheat industry, whether people stand Oll

the side of the buyers or of the wheat­growers, there are amongst them honest men who are prepared to transaet bU1:li­ness in an honorable way. Those are the two questions that present themselves to my mind. If it is said that, owing to dishonesty on the part of those with whom they are dealing the wheat-growers are forced to come here and ask the Go­vernment to' protect them, that should be proved, and the proof should com€1 from the honorable members who repre­sent wheat-growing constituencies. I am in strong sympathy with the men who work on the land, no matter who they may be, but they have their own repre­sentatives he,re. The Country party was established by the wheat-growers. On the one side they stand here as a body of earnest, intelligent men, whOi are sup­pDrting the wheat-growers whom thely re­present. I do not blame them fQir that at all. On the other side stands the Govern­ment, putting forward OIne of its own princi pIes and at the same time ading in sympa,thy with the men on the land. Apart from t.his particular Bill, the GOo­vernment has already shorwn sympat.hy in that. direction, but up tal the present ueither the Government nor the farmers have shOlWn that the peOople who are grow­ing wheat are in necessitous circum­stances. I dOl nQit knOlw whether they are Qr not, and I am waiting f()r that infOor­mat..iotIl.

686 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

Mr. WETTENHAi.L.-The chIef demand for the Bill comes from the pQio,rest farmers.

Mr. McLACHLAN.-That has not been said in the House.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-Then there has been an oversight, because t.hat is the case.

Mr. l\1cLACHLAN.-T'he most im­portant polint tha,t could be stressed in favour of the Bill is that 'it has been brought forward to assist men on the land who are in necessitous circumstances, and who" unless assisted, will probably reach bankruptcy. Nothing to that effect has been said. T'he 1\1inister made a long second-reading spe'ech, and assisted him­self by a Scriptural quotation with refer­ence to bea,ring one another's burdens; but he did not state, to the House that wheat-growers in the 1\!I:allee are in the circumstances to which I have referre,d. If he had done tha,t, or the Leader of the Farmers Union pa,rty had done that, he would have made, out a very strong case for assisting these men with a Pool. I do not regard a, Pool in the same way as some honorable members dOl. I do no,t think that it means the beginning of the nationalization of all production,. We knolW very well tha,t if the community will ever reach that stage it has not. reached it yet, and that no Government could a,t­tempt tOi bring the shopkoeepers OIf Bourke­street, Swanston-street, Elizabeth-street, or Collins-street under its power in that connexion. There is not one shOopkeeper in any of those streets who would subscribe to the principle of handing over his busi­ness to the State. It, has been suggested that if the Bill is adopted it will mean general nationalization. It will not mean any such thing. That is not likely to hap­pen. There is a. strong spirit of indepen­dence in the race, and that sp,irit is not likely tOo· find expression, at any rate im­media£ely, in the direction some have urged as a rea~on for nort supporting the Bill. 'l'he principle of compulsion should only be used ill e1xceptional circum­stances. I am not going tOo refer to the war, but the nation may be in danger, or a section of the people ma y be in danger, and if it can be proved in Com­mittee that the 1\1a11ee farmers, or t.he Wimm.era farmers, can only be saved through a Pool, then let us unhesitatingly give them a Pool. It WQluld be the duty of eve,ry honOorable member to support such a mOove. IIi the past, when the 1\1: all ee farmers have been in tr'ouble through droughts, tOo the best of my reco!-

laotion, t.he State has fOirthwith assist ed them, and it would do so again. A good deal has been done by State Govern­ments tQlwaTds developing Victoria,. I do not know if the Wimmera O'r the l\Iall ee, w here the wheat-growers are, has been as well developed as Gippsland. Gippsland for years was known as the neglected portion of Victoria. GOIvernments did not come to its assistance, but in recent years it has received more attention from the State Parliament. There has been a la,rger E>prinkling of country representa­tives in the Sta,te Parlia,ment, and those representatives, toget.he,r with t.he local bodies, have obtained something at least for Gippsland, and it is in a very much better position t.han it was a few years ago. I ha.ve ne,ver heard it said in the House tha,t the Mallee or the Wimmera was in as bad a way, from the stand-

. point OIf railways or roads, as Gippsland. They may have been as badly off in those respeot.s, or worse o"ff; but if a, strOing case had been made' out, I am quite sure that Governments, especially of late years, would no,t have been wanting in according to the people some SUppoTt, li,t least, if aU that was required was not done. Gene­rally speaking, in this State there has been a deoided improvement in govern­ment, so far as assisting in the general welfare of the people is concerned. Rail­ways have be,en made into many pa.rts of Victoria, and in recent years roads have be'en constructed through the agency d the Country Roads Board. The cOonstruc­tion of toads is still being procee,ded with. Irrigation has been est.ablished in the drier areas, and it has now reac·hed Gipps­land. Schools have been built in variOous parts-not only elementary schOools, but higher element.ary schools, a.nd in some cases agricultural high schools. All these institutions have been helping in t.he de­velopment Oof the State, and, through education, farmers, as well as people in other walks of life, are to­day able to make their claims known. The farmers, who apparently are clamour­ing fOor this Bill to-day-I do not know what percentage of them is clamour­fo.r it-aJ"e not illiterate men. I a,m sure they have all passed through our schools, and tOo-day every man, whether he is doing hard work on a railway or in a, paddook, Q1r carrying on farming work, through having education, is in a, POosition to defend himself. I feel that more might have been heard from th~ Mallee and the Witnmera farmers regard-

IVlvat [2 OCTOBER, 1924.J M arlceting Bill. 687

mg their financial position and the diffi­culties tbey have as wheat-growers, if there had been the combined effort which some of their supporters tell us they have made for the purpose of getting a com­pulsory Poo1. As I have said, neither the l\finister nor the Leader of the Farmers Union party has stated to the House that these' pe0'ple are in such a position as to need the assistance pro­posed. As' I have said, compulsion should only be used in exceptional cir­cumstances. The tendency of the people right down through history has been to­wards independence and liberty. A little while ago when Kipling, the author of the sublime Recessional, was appointed Lord Rector cf St. Andrew's Univer­sity in Scotland, he delivered an address. I t is usual for LOI"d Rectors to deliver addresses and touch on the virtues of the country. The pre­vjous Lord Rector, Sjr James Barrie, delivered an a.ddress to the students and chose as his subject, Courage, making reference to the way in which th81 Empire has been built. up by men pos­sessing courage. Kipling chose as his sub­ject, Independence. He said it might be like bringing coals to Newcastle to speak to Y0'ung Scotchmen in that way. He meant by independence, that every herring should hang by its own head. Amplifying the aphorism, he went on to sa.y that Scotchmen had made themselves to some extent independent by the train­ing that they had received in their youth. They had been subject to discipline, thrift, and hardship, the result being that when later on they entered the battle of life Scotchmen succeeded wherever they went. If they were successful on the field of war, as they were-their enemies knew that-they were also suc­cessful in various departments of peace­ful life. While he pointed that out he also said that we could not always ex­ercise independence. Tha,t is true. There are times when we have to drop it. The wheat-growers wh0' are asking, as is alleged by their supporters, for this Pool, although we have not sufficient evidence on the point, are dropping their indepen­dence and relying entir,ely on the Govern­ment. Of course', I d0' not know what attitude Kipling would ta;ke up if he were a member of this Parliament and their grievances were submitted to him.

Mr. WARDE.-He would be in favour of the Pool.

l\1r. McLACHLAN. - Perhaps he would. No doubt H. G. Wells would be in favour of it, and he is a man who has had fairly good experience in many countries. He satirically referred la,tely to patriotic ~tatesmen and private enterprise as bring­mg about decay in the civilization of Europe. There is no doubt that he would be prepared t0' substitute nationalization for private enterprise. . Various views are held qn the subject by both the educated and the uneducated, and in Parliament, as well as outside. Generally speaking, the trend of opinion is that men should be allowed to exercise their liberty, 'and that when they are in serious trouble through n0' fa,ult of their own, then it is the duty of Parliament to come to their assistance. There is nothing wrong in that. If the Leader of the Farmer's p~rty and the Minister can satisfy me that the wheat-growers need such assistance, well, then, I shall sup­port the Bill at a later stage. However, there is one point that we cannot lose sight of, and that is that the Govern­ment js standing behind the wheat­growers and permitting all its resources to be used for carrying out the Pool suc­cessfully. It is my opinion, therefore, that ou any Board, which is established to look after this Pool, the public should have adequate representation. As I said at the outset, it was with some hesi­tancy that I decided to give my approval to the second reading of the measure. But I hope that before the Bill reaches an­'other stage, the crucial stage really, some furthe!r infOormation will be given to the House by the Minister of Agriculture or by the Leader of the Country party. We are entitled to know the financial condi­tion of the men who are growing wheat in the Wimmera and the Mallee. That is a point Oon which the Minister should have satisfied himself before he came forward with a Bill of this char­acter. Can the hOonorable member for Rodney prove to' me that those people are in such financial stress, in the ab­senc& of a Pool, as to make this Bill necess:J.ry 1 The farmers in the Mallee and the Wimmera may he poor or they may be in a fairly good financial position. Some of them may be wealthy-I do not know whether that is so or not-but I do not stand for a Pool for the wealthy. I stand for a Pool for the pODr. In my electorate 'there are men in the back­block~ who have been struggling tOo carve out a living without the assistance of

688 Wheat r ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

roads and railways. Those men are en­titled tOo full sympathy and support which they did not ge,t in the past from Governments. I have ple'aded from time to time on th'eir behalf. Any com,­bined effort that could be made to place those men in a bette,r position, would have received my support, and it would have been enti.tled to t.he suppo["t of all members in this House. If the position is the same in the Mallee and the Wim­mera in regard to the men carrying on wheat-growing operations, then it is our duty to do what is a fair thing towards those people. On the other hand, if they are in comfortable circumstances and they are getting fair treatment from the people with whom they are dealing, no Pool is necessary. I hope that we· shall hear from the M'inister and from members of the Country party what is the true position.

1\11'. TOUTCHER.-Unlike, most mem­be,rs on this (the Opposition) side of the House, I commend the Labour party for the introduction of this question. I do so bec'luse it is in accordance with their platform and the promises which they have given to the public, A compulsory wheat Pool was one of the impOortant planks of their policy. I remembelr that at the election Oof 1921 there was a good deal o~f' controversy between the Country party and the Labour paTty as to w helther the mandate th.en obtained we,re canied out, especially as some 0'£ the farmers' representatives believed after meeting their electors face to. face that the volun­tary Pool, which the then Premier, Mr. Lawson, had offered, was not better than a compu]sory Pool.

Mr. WARDE.-Still, they went before the electors as supporters of a cOompulsory Pool.

Mr. TOUTCH,ER.-I believe they did. Mr, W ARDE.-When they got in they

ran away frOom it. They got the,ir seats under false pretences, and yoou know it.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-I do not know it. I am not going to say they did.

Mr. W ARDE.-Some of them did. Mr. TOUTCHER.-There may be an

issue before Parliament, and when it (omes before the electors candidates take up v'arious attitudes in regard to it. For instance, we had a Bill providing fOor the redistribution of seats, which caused the dissolution, and probably some members changed their minds when they came be­f ore their electors and ascertained their feelings on the matter. It may be that

~hey had no very strong views themselves. I take it that was the case with some of the farmers' representatives.

Mr. W ARDE.-You are no better than they are if that is, your excuse.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-So far as the Labour party is concerned, it is perfectly justified in introducing this measure, be­cause its policy includes the socialization of industry, and the means 9f production, d,istribution, and exchange. - Mr. CLOUGII.-Tell us what is the

policy of your party. ~{r. TOUTCHER.-I am telling the

honorable member what is the policy of the Labour party, and I notice that when any statements are made in regard to it more objections come from Labour mem­bers than from any other section of the House.

Mr. CLOuGH.-ITell us what is the policy of your party.

An HONORABLE MEMBER. - Tell us what is the name of your party.

Mr. TOUTOHER.-I will be pleased to answer the questions of honorable mem­bers.

The SPEAKER.-The honorable mem­ber must not do anything of the sort. We must not have these continued interjec­tions. I ask honorable members to allow the honmable member for Stawell to con­tinue his speech and accord him the cour­tesy extended to other honorable members during the debate.

Mr. CLOUGH.-Now tell us why you chang~d your opinion on the Bill for the redistribution of seats.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-I desire to discuss this matter in a temperate way, because it affects the interests of the people as a whole. This is not a matter which con­cerns merely the Farmers Union or the wheat-growers. A big nat,ional question is involved in it. I say it is proper for the Labour party to give effect as speedily as possible to its pOolicy, I am rather surprised, however, that one party in this House is prepared to support this Bill merely because they are going to benefit pecuniarily by it. They, perhaps, may get Is. per bushel. more or less by approv­ing of this measure. We have had many references from Scripture in the course of this debate, and honorable members llave heard of the man who was prepared to sell his birthright for a mess of pottage. The farmers of this country who are en­dorsing this principle of socialization are

Wheat 12 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 689

prepared to sell their birthright for a mess of pottage. They are actuated en­t~rely by seliish motives. Socializaticm is alleged to be based 11 pon unselfishness, but I venture to say that once we lay the foundation of that principle, the Labour pa:z:ty, if it remains in power, will, story by story, build an edifice which will in the end represent pure selfishness. There­fore those who are putting forward this proposal to-day are laying the foundation of a building which will be much better, so far as the Labour party is concerned, than the farmers' representatives realize. I cannot understand the farmers in this country who have been associated with two types of politics-Liberal, and in the old days, Conservative-approving of this Bill.

Mr. CLOUGH.-'l'he Leader of the Farmers Union stated at a banquet the other night that he was sitting on a rai].

Mr. TOUTCHER.-We will find out on which side he will come down when the division is taken. I should like to know if the Farmers Union is prepared to su£Port the principle of the socializa­tion 01 industry and the means of produc­tion, distribution, and exchange. If we come to deal with the means of produc­tion, js that party prepared to support the socialization of land? That is an essential part of this plank in regard to socialization. The means of production undoubtedly refer to land. There are some people who believe that it would be t.o the best interests of the community to have the socialization of land in this State. If the Labour party, which is at present nominally' in power in this House, at future elections succeeds in getting a majority of members and secures a ma­jority in another place, it will be per­fectly justified in endeavouring to put

. into force as speedily as possible its pro­gramma of socialization. Noone could take any objection to it doing that. This is practically the first time that the Labour party has been in charge of the Treasury bench. It has not yet complete power, because a majority of members is -sitting on the Opposition side of the House. If, however, it does get a ma­jority, there is no doubt that it will en­deavour to put into force the whole socialistic programme. If there is a ma­jority of this House in favour of the second reading of the Bill, it will be a

step to'~vards the introduction of its socialistic programme.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-The Government you supported continued in office several times after it had been defeated. We have not yet had one defeat.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-Not yet. We have to wait to see how the Government will get on with this Bill. There is no doubt that this measure is being held out as a bait. References have been made to the taking of a referendum. Although no demand has been made for such an ap­"(Jeal from the Opposition side of the House, I think if a referendum were taken there would be a majority of the farmers of this State against it.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-Are you quite sure uf that ~

Mr. TOUTCHER.-We cannot be sure of anything in this world, but sometimes we can form a pretty good idea of what is likely to ha pp~m.

Mr. BROWNBILL.-If there were a ma­jority in favour of this Bill, would you support it?

Mr. TOUTCHER. - I would not. Sometimes the,re is such a thing as an intelligent minority, and I like to belong to it at times, especially when a great principle is concerned. I have always been opposed to Socialism, because of its ultimate effects upon society. However, I do not want to go into that matter just now.

Mr. POLLARD.-Why did you vote for the Morwell scheme and for the Sugar Beet Factory and other State enterprises ~

Mr. TOUTOHER.-There is no com­parison whatever between those ent~r­prises and the proposal we are now dIS­cussing. The differences have already been pointed out to the honorable mem­ber, and I need not repeat them. I may merely say that in those cases the State has valuable assets of its own, and is developing them in the public interest with public money. There is no question of private ownership in those matters.

Mr. POLLARD.-There is an electric supply company in Melbourne, and there are similar companies in Ballarat and Bendigo.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-I waited for the honorable member to make a speech be­fore the debate was closed, but he did not indicate any desire to do so. I have wheat-growers in my constituency and have received letters from them in which they asked me to. oppose this Bill.

6~O Wheat [ASSEMBLY. ] Marketing Bill.

Mr. WEAvER.-Is that why you will not support the Pool ~

Mr. TOUTCHER.-No; I would not suppmt it on any account whatever.

Mr. WEAVER.-Ninety per cent. of the wheat-growers are in favour of the Pool.

l\1r. TOUTCHER.-I do not care even if 90 per cent. of the wheat-growers are in favour of the PooL vVe are asked to e~dO'rse a dangerous and vicious priu­Clple. Every man should be entitled tOI

the full benefit of his labour. If I go an the land and produce, the fruits of my labour should be mine. No GO'vern­ment, no political party should be able to seize what h€longs to me. , ~1r. PRENDERGAS'f.-Why, you voted for ,conscription!

Mr. TOUTCHER.-Are we to put a stranglehO'ld on the free men who get up at 5 o'clock in the mOTning and do an arduous day's toil1 I have knO'wn men in the Mallee busily engaged in loading wheat at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning. During harvest time these men work prac­tically day and night. They content themselves with O'nly four or five hours' sleep. The fullest consideration should be given to these men. We have a volun­tary wheat Pool. N oborly objects to or­ganization. The voluntary system has been tried and has succeeded to a large .extent. It has given to thO'se people who desire co-opera.tion the right .. tO' freely co­operate. It takes no liberty away. The man whO' does not want to gOi intOo the 'voluntary Pool stays out and sells his wheat in the open market. There are men who have been toiling for many months .and they now have a chance of getting a fine advance ,for their whea.t. The Government, with the assistance of th~ Farmers Union party, a,re apparently gomg to' stand in the wa;y of those men getting the just reward O'f their labours. I could understand the position if the' farmers were in a parlous condition. If they were' in necessitous circumstances if the wheat market had fallen tOo pie~es, then it would be a natural thing for the Go'vernmellt to render them some help. But this is a time of prosperity. We have the promise of a splendid harvest. For the GQovernment now to step in and to take awa;y from producers the fruits of their labQour is a seriQous interference with all the traditional rights O'f the people of our race. British people love freedom. It is one of their traditional privileges. The Government has no: right to threaten to

refuse to carry the wheat Qof a free man over t.he railways .. But that will .be .the position. If a man refuses to join the Pool he will be refused the right of car­riage of his wheat over the railways, which are- the people's property. The Go­vernment favours a capitalistic combina­tion. They say to, the peo-ple who love freedom, " You are not going to have the rights O'f freedom. You have go't to. be curbed and leg-ironed."

Mr. WEBBER.-YoU should be the last to talk about freedom after giving your vote for the Public Safety Preservation Bill.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-That Bill was brought in at a critical period oJ our his­tory.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAcocK.-The Govern­ment are not game enough to bring in a. Bill to repeal it.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-That is a, distinct challenge.

1\11". PRENDERGAST.-Is it ~ Yoru voted for conscription, Dick.

The SPEAKER.-I would point out to the Premier that he has on severa,} oc­casions refened to tlie honorable member for StaweU as "Dick." That is not a pa,rliamentary expression. I ask honor­able members to 'try to. cOon form with the rules 00£ this House, and I will try my best to ad~inister them. . '

1\1r. TOUTCHER.-The Premier and myself a,re very o,ld friends, and I suppose " Dick" slips out now and again in a. good-natured way.

Mr. PRENDERGAS'l'.-No; I agree with the 'Speaker. I withdraw the "Dick."

Mr. TOUTCHER.-That is all right. I cannot understand for onel moment why the members of thel Farmers Union party, who have been SOl strongly opposed to socialistic measures, as the Ministe,rial members well know, should now nibble at the bait that is held out to them, quite irrespective of all other con­sidera,tions. The honorable member for Koroug referred to Socialism to-day. In reply to an interjection by myself that j f SQocialism weTe such a good thing in re­spect to. wheat the Government might well be asked to buy our clothes and our food, he said that that might be well w0'rth trying. In fact, I gathered th~t he was strQongly in favour of !;Iuch a. pro­cedure. Therefore he is a whole-hogger.

Mr. PRENPERGAST.-.-Who is a whole­hogger'

Wheat· 12 OCTOBER, 1924.J Marlceting, Bill. (91

Mr. TOUTCHER.-The honorable mmnber for Korong is a whole-hogger.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-If I am not allowed to call you "Dick," you should nOot be allowed t.o call the hOonorable mem­ber: fool' Korong a; whole-hOogger.

~v1r. TOUTCHER.-\\Those Bill is this 1 Is it the Labour party's Bill or is it the Farmers Union party's Bill ~ I am told that by pre-arra.ngement the Government, when the second reading of the Bill has been agreed tOo, will drop a number of principles that should be regarded as es­sential to the Bill in order to retain the support of their friends. There will be au agree~l1ent in regard to the chairmanship questIOli. The Government will drOop their prop0'sal that there should be two Government representatives, though the l\1inister of Agriculture t-old me only to­day that the purpose of appointing two representatives was to see that the finances were watched and tOo safeguard the consumers. It is clea.r, to my mind. that. we have two socialistic pa,rties in thi? State. The only difference between th-em is that one of them wishes tOo support Socialism only to benefit their own pockets. If we once start creating compulsory P0'O'ls where shall we stop? If such a Pool is good for the wheat-grower it should be equally good for every other section of the community. TO' my mind it means the subversion 0'f all liberty. There is t0'O much talk .about compulsi0'n. ~hy there is a, c0'mpulsOory voting clause In the Electoral Bill brought in by the Go'vernment.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAcocK.-That clause will not pass.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-I .am satisfied that it will not. Members of the Farmers Union party are opposed to' compulsion there. Yet, if the principle of compul­sion be a g0'od one in respect O'f a Pool for wheat-gro;-vers it 0'ught t0' be good enough to drIve electors to' the polling booth. 'Altogether we a.re up against a dangerous and a viciOous principle, an abuse 0'f freedom.

Mr. WARDE.-NO't at all. Civilization means compulsion. It means nothing else. We shall g0' back to barbarism if compulsion is to be eliminated.

Mr. TOUTCHER.~It is ,all very well for the honorable member for Fleming­ton to talk like that. He only wants compulsi0'n when it suits his partv. When the question of c0'mpulsion w~s raised, at a time when t.he destfnies of the

nation were trembling in the balance, and men were' wanted to defend it honorable members opposite were loud in' expressing their opP0'sition to the principle.

Mr. BRowNllILL.-You did not go to the war.

Mr. TO UTCHER.-I was prepared to goo. If I did no,t go myself I bad repre­sentatives at the !front who were near and dear to me. I do not kn0'w whether the honorable member had any member of his family there.

Mr. B1WWNBILL.-I lost a boy in the war.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-Then I am sorry I made the remark. The hon0'rable mem­ber knows that men at our time of life were not required to gOi. What I say is that if the principl~ 0'f compulsion is good f0'r one thing it 0'ught to' be g0'od f0'r all th~ngs.. ~ do .nQlt like conscription. I thlll~ It IS hellIsh, but desperate diseases reqUIre desperate remedies. During the war necessity demanded cQonscription.

Mr. WEBBER.-It was not demanded. Mr. TOUTCHER. - The honorable

member knows that reinf0'rcements were badly required, and we heard from the boys a brOiad tha t they were being neglected and deserted in the field. ~r. WEBBER.-A majority of the

sOildIers at the FrOint voted. against con-scription. ,

l\1~. TOUT~~ER.-There is a grea.t conflIct 0'f o'plIllOn as to the wisdom of passing this measure. I think I may say that the vast majOirity 0'£ the consumers are opposed to it, because they cannot see 11O'W we can have at the same time high­priced wheat and cheap flour, or h0'w we can have cheap bread unless we have a fre'e market. The v0'luntary Pool has been a' success. It has given the farmers the benefit of a, voluntary organization. t believe in Qorganization when it is voluntary, because it permits people to ?o many things which they could not do If they were controlled by any exercise 0'f compulsion on the part of the Govern­ment. The,re is restriction and restraint in c0'nnexi0'n with a GQovernment scheme whic~ do~s n0't appertain to' a v0'luntary combmahoIi. A voluptary combination can do many things, which, if done politi­cally O'r by compulsiOon, might be hurtful. We have been tOold about wheat gaining weight under a compulsory Pool. Would not wheat gain weight iu the same way under a voluntary Pool?

Mr. JACKSoN.-They would llQ.t alJ play the game under a vo,luntary Poo]. .

692 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOcK.-The honor­able member for Prahran will be asking for a compulsory Pool in connexion with the firewood trade!

Mr. TOUTCHER.-Yes, that is the poin t. Where is this sort of thing going to stop ~ This is the first time, and the farmers' representatives ought to bear that in mind, that the principle of com­pulsion has been tried by a Labour Go­vernment, and a Labour Government that is ornly nominally in power. A majority of the honorable members of this House was re,turned in opposition to the Labour party, but now a section of that majority is supporting them, and laying down the foundations of a principle of which we may see the beginning, but God knows where the end will be! If the farmers' representatives support this Bill, I think the time will come when they will regret the votes they have given. The Premier and his party are to be commended for endea vouring to give effect to a plank in their policy, and if they can get it carried now, when they are in a minority in the House, they will be able to go to their constituents and say, " We were in a minority, but were successful in laying down an important and very wise prin­oi pIe, namely that of compulsion."

Mr. HOGAN.-If we carry the second reading of the Bill by a two to one ma­jority, that will be fairly substantial.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-Yes, but compul­sion would be a bad principle to establish in a liberty-loving commu­ni ty like this, which has been built up on British traditions. I may have made a contract to sell wheat at 5s. or 6s. a bushel, but, under this Bill, any such contract will be declared to be null and void. Should not faith be observed in all our trading transactions? A man may go in a bona fide way to a wheat-buyer, and agree to sell his wheat to him, but he will not be permitted to stand honorably to his bargain. All wheat must go into the Pool, and this is a substitution of compulsion for liberty. All the fine principles and the magnificent traditions on which our Constitution and our country have been built up are to, be swept a,way. Compulsion means Socialism, and Socialism means the taking over by the Government of the means of produc­tion, exchange" and distribution. If we agree to this Bill we shall, in my opinion, and in the opinion of other membe.rs of the Liberal party, be laying down a most,

dangerous and vicious principle. I leave the farmers and their representatives to ., stew in their own juice." The time will come when they will recognize that they have been misled, and that, in the words of Scripture, they have " sold their birth­right for a mess of pottage,?' and a dirty mess of pottage at that.

Mr. LA WSON.-I ask the Premier to consent to the adjournment of the debate. 1 understand that several honorable mem­bers desire to speak, and do not want the debate to be further· prolonged at thiR stage. I shall have a few observations to make before the second reading is carried. Anoth€T place has adjourned until the 14th Octoher, and no material advantage will be gained by the Government by fnrcing a decision to-day.

Mr. HOGAN.-We do not know how long it will take us to deal with the Bill in Committee.

Mr. LAWSON.-No. I move­That the debate be now adjourned.

Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Agriculture). - I would pnint out that it is only half­past 3 o'clock, and that it ~s the custom nf the House to sit until 4 o'clock on Thursdays. That custom the honorable member fnr Castlemaine, whtn Premier, alwayn carried out.

Mr. LAwsoN.-I frequently granted adjournments on big issues before this time, and then introduced small nou­contentious Bills until 4 o'clock.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-But time is the essence of the contract with this Bill.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-llliother place cann.ot touch it until the 14th October.

Mr. nOGAN.-It has been said that some honorable members want to get away. They can go. The honorable member for Castlemaine can take three- . quarters of an hour to. make, his speech.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAcocK.-]Vlembers want to take part in the division.

Mr. nOGAN.-We will give an under­taking to defer having a division on the Bill until Tuesday. There is nothing to prevent the honorable member for Castle­maine making his speech now.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I think the granting of an adjournment is a courtesy due to an e4-Premier. I never heard of such a thing as the Government propose.

Mr. HOGAN.-There is nothing to prevent the honorable member for Castle-

Wheat [2 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 693

maine making his speech now. We are not preventing him from speaking. If he likes to discontinue his speech at 4 o'clock we will agree to that, or if he, would like to go on till a quarter past 4 0' clock, and finish his speech this after­noon, we ar.e quite willing to meet him in that respect. We will agree tOo adjOourn as soon as the honorable member has finished, and take the' divisioI). on Tues­day, or to adjourn at 4 o'clock.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-As far as I know, the honorable member for Oastlemaine is the only member on this (the Opposition) side of the House who desires to speak. I quite realize that the shortness of time has actuated the Premier in his attitude, and I will under­take to expedite the taking of the division on the second reading. I will have 'a chat wi th the Leader of the Oountry P3:rty on the subject. The hqnorable member for Castlemaine wants to read what has been said by the Minister of Agriculture. Certain statements have been made by the :Minister, and the honorable member for Castlemaine was the Premier responsible for the change from compulsory pooling to voluntary pooling.

Mr. HOGAN.-The honorable member for Castlemaine could have been, here this morning.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.­vVhat has occurred IS the Minis­ter's own fault. 'Va pressed last night for a definite statement from the Government, but no word was forthcom-. ing. The honorable member for Castle­maine was not present to hear the Minis­ter's statement this morning.

Mr. IIoGAN.-I told you last night I would make a statement to-day.

Sir ALEXANDER PEltCOOK.-The honorable member cannot pull my leg. The Premier told us last night that when the Bill reached Committee a state­ment would be made on behalf of the Government. We succeeded at last in getting a statement from the Minister before tlie Bill went into Committee. The honorable member for Goulburn Valley pressed for such a statement this morning, and, as a result, the Minister spoke. '( think we can compromise very easily over this matter.

Mr. HOGAN.-There are other honor­able members who wish to speak.

[36]

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Not on this (the Opposition) side of the House.

Mr. HOGAN.-Yes, there are. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-If

the Government are going to take up that attitude, let members vote on the motion for the adjournment of the debate. 'Mr. ALLAN.-I think the Premier

might grant an adjournment. Quite a number of us have to catch trains at 4 o'clock if we are to get home to-night, and, consequently, we shall have to leave' the House in a few minutes. As far as I know there is only one honorable mem­ber on this (the Opposition) side of the House who wishes to speak.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier) .-I may point out that time is the essence of the contract.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAcocK.-Then why did you adjourn the other House for a fortnight ~

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-That is all right. We have been a full week on this Bill up to the present, and fro~ .the way in which things are going now, it can easily last another, week.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-We will be ready to go on in Committee on Tuesday night. .

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-The honor­able member for Castlemaine has been in this Chamber for the last two or three days. He has been going to spe~k, but has not done so.

Sir Ar,ExANDER PEAcocK.-I will agree to the Bill going into Oommittee on Tues­day night before tea.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-So long as the Bill goes into Committee, and its cOon­sideration is proceeded with without an adjournment being asked for, I will be satisfied. No amendments of any con­sequence are threatened, but we have prof­fered certain amendments. The under­taking given by the Leader of the Oppo­sition offers an advantage that would not be obtained by an unconditional adjourn­ment of the debate until Tuesday.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-We will not ask for any adjournment on Tuesday night, but will go on with the Bill.

The motion foOl' the adjournment of the dehate was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until Tuesd~y, October 7.

694 A.djournment. [ASSEMBLY.] AdJournment.

ADJOURNMENT.

RAIL WAY DEPARTMENT: TENDERS FOR LOCOMOTIVES: BALLARAT-GEELONG

PASSENGER SERVICE-INCOME TAX OFFICE-DAMAGE THROUGH FLOODS.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).-I move-

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr. LAWSON. - Some time ago on grievance day, when we were discussing the question of the Newport workshops tendering for the construction of lo?o­motives for other States, I asked the MIn­ister tOf Railways if he would submit to the Crown Law authorities the question of the constitutionality of the Newport workshops doing such a thing, and ob­tain their ~dvice generally in regard to the matter. The Minister was good enough to say that he would consult the Crown Law' authorities.

alterations made. Women and men stand in a queue for a time, and most of them go away and then come back again. I had three trips there, and found the

, place was shamefully run. I should like the Premier to look into. the matter.

Mr. EVERARD. - There have been several deputations to. the Minister of P~l?lic Works in regard to flood damages throughout Victoria. During the last six months floods have caused consider­able damage. In my own district the rtOads were in a shocking condition after the flood waters had .gone over them. We had a deputation to the Minister of Public Works, and he informed us that the £8,000 available had already been parceled out among shires ,suffering in the same way. There is no doubt that the Minister met us in a very sympathetic manner. He said he would bring the matter before Cabinet and see if a fur­ther sum could not~ be given out of the

Mr. HOGAN.-I dtO not think so. general revenue in order to help the shires that are suffering. On one road alone

Mr. LA WSON.-I read the honorable the Eltham Shire, Council spent o.ver gentlem,an's statement in Hansard. I £3,000, but after it had been cut up wish to ask him or the Premier whether by people from the forests and damaged such information is yet available. for hon- by floods, they would have to spend an­orable members. other £3,000 to bring it to its former

state. That is only one road out of Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Railways). many. I hope that the Premier will not

-I am not sure that I said what the hon- merely say that he will look into the or able member for Castlemaine has attri- matter, but that he will regard it as. a buted to me. If I did I have forgotten question of great importance.. I nobce it. I will look up what I said, and if that deputations from other districts I gB;ve an undertaking to obtai~. the have waited on the Minister, and if their opimon of the Crown Law authOrItIes I roads and bridges are in as bad a state will get it. . as those in my constituency, they must

Mr. LAwsoN.-You give that undertak- indeed be in a parlous way. If the lng now? '"1 Premier consults the Minister o·f Public

Works I know that hel will hear a Mr. HOGAN. - No; I will look up harro~ing tale that will soften his heart.

Hansard and see what I said. These unfo.rtunate settlers are suffering Mr. MORLEY. - I wish to draw the through no fault of their o'wn, but from

Premier's attention to a .matter connected an act of God, and I hope that relief will with the Income Tax Office. Taxpayers be given 'at the earliest possible moment. receive notices to attend an office in Eliza- Mr. BROWNBILL.-I wish to refer beth-street. The place is in a. most to the passenger se,rvice between. Ballarat shocking condition. The income tax and Geelong. At present a tram leaves people have, two rooms, which are relally Ballarat at 3 p.m. every day with one room, and a large number of people the exception of Friday, when one carri­have to wait in a queue in the corridor. age is attached to the goods train? l.eav­There is no privacy,' and one taxpayer ing at 7.10 p.m. I want. t~e MmIs~er can hear the. questions that are' asked of to see the Railways CommISSIoners WIth another taxpayer. I aScertained that the' a view of getting a carriage attached to Income Tax Office has three floors-No. that goods train every evening, in order 2 floor, No. 5 floor, and No. 8 floor. I that people from Hopetoun, Horsham, think it is time the Government had some Warracknabeal, Murfoa, Dimboola,

A.dJournment. [2 OCTOBER, 1924.] Adjournment. 695

Nhill, Serviceton, and Minyip may get to Geelong. It is particularly necessary in view of the wool sales which take place every Wednesday and Thursday. People have bee'll allowed to' travel in the goods van on that train on other evenings than Friday. Sometimes there have been ten O'r twe1ve travelling in that van.

Mr. HOGAN.-You say that a carriage is put on the goods train some days ~

Mr. BRO~NBILL.-Yes, on Friday evenings. All we ask is that it should be done every evening. It may be ar­gued that it wO'uld entail some incon­venience" but that is a small matter com­pared with the cQlnvenience of the travelling public, which should be the paramount consideration. .

Mr. LA WSON.-BY way of personal explanatiQln I wish to say in reference

. to my previO'us remarks that I was spe1ak­ing from a hurried recollection of the speech which the Minister of Railways made. I have since had an DppO'rtunity O'f reading it. This is what the honor­able gentleman said-

I desire to reply to his statement-

That was my statement.

but I am not prepared at present to deal with the matter in its constitutional aspect.

The impression made on my mind was that the honorable gentleman would later O'n be prepared to deal with it, although there was nD direct promise. That was O'nly an inference O'n my part, and, speak­ing frO'm recollection, I put the position more strongly than I was justified in doing. I wish to tell the Minister that I would be sorry to misrepresent him in any way.

Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Railways).­As desired by the honorable member for Geelong, I will interview the Railways Commissioners, and see whether it is not possible fO'r a passenger carriage to be at­tached _ to' that goO'ds train every evening. I will do' what I can in the ;matter.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).-The honO'rable member fO'r Barwon brought up the question of office accommodation for those engaged in collecting and mak­ing inquiries with regard to income tax. I would be sorry to' interfere with the hon­orable member's endeavour to' pay his in­cO'me tax, because I feel sure the revenue would fall off very much if we did not get it, However, the question Q1f such

accomm,odation for public servants is a serious one, affecting, as it does, the offices in MelbDurne generally. As members of the last Government know, Dur public offices are overcrowded in every directioll. There is nD part Df the offices that is nO't overcrowded. Some of them are in such an unhealthy conditiO'n that there is mOIre sickness among public ser­vants than we have any right to allow. However, the pO'int is that we can­llpt do everything .at, once. The honO'rable member for Evelyn has brO'ught up an urgent matter 1;lecause people are being deprived of the oppor­tunity of getting funds to provide them­selves almost with fO'Qld. Therefore, it is a. matter which requires immediate attention. I will ask the Minister of Public Works to make funds available in such a way that relief can be affO'rded to the best ad­vantage. The l\1inister has already told me that that is his object. I have tol<;l him that no reasonable expenditure' should be withheld to give these people' an immediate O'pportunity of making a living off their land. Just when a, boun­teous season is expected, flO'ods came alO'ng, and a number O'f people are de­prived of their means of livelihO'od. We shall do the best we can in cO'nnexion with the question of roads._ The ,provi~ion of all the office accommodation reqUIred by the various Government departments would cost a large amount of money. We shall have to provide be,tter accommo­dation, but we do not know exactly what to do now . We have a number of rented premises, and it will be very much cheaper to' erect 'buildings on borrowed money than to continue to 'Pay the rents which are being demanded in a good many instances.

Mr. MORLEy.-The Government has forced up the rents in some instances.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-No case of that sort has come under my notice. If . it does, it ~ill be sto'pped a't once'. The Government is not going to' p.rovide land­lords with the means of putting up rents. The Commonwealth Government prO'­p.oses to vacate Pa,rli~,ment House" in Sprin.e:-street, at the end of next vear. We will then have these premises in ~hich we are now meeting available, and we will nO' doubt be able to provide accommoda­tion for some of the Departments where men are working, under conditions which should not be permitted to exist. Thi~

696 The Unemployed. [ ASSEMBLY.] Wheat Marketing Bill.

matte,r of providing extra accomll!odation has been forced upon us sooner than we expected, because .of the conditions under which some of our officers have to work to-day. The honorable member for Bar­won referred to the conditions under which people have to pay income tax.

Mr. MORLEY.-! was re.ferring particu­larly to Elizabeth House.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-People who go there to pay their income tax are en­titled to such accommodation as will en­able them to discharge their business with an ordinary amount of comfort, and I will have, inquiries made on the subject.

The motion was agreed to'. The House adjourned at 3.52 p.m. until

Tuesday, Octobe·r 7.

. -~-.-- --- -_. --­------

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

T'uesday, October 7, .1924.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. John Bowser) took the chair at 4.34 p.m.

THE UNEMPLOYED.

Mr. EGGLESTON asked the Pre­mier-

1. What was the number of men registered for employment at the Government employ­ment hun~au, King-street, Melbourne, On the following dates :-30th June, 1924; 31st July, 1924; 31,st August, 1924; 30th September, 1924?

2. 'When did the Government cease the prac­tice 01' making available sleeping accommoda­tion in drill-haUs; and why?

3. How many men were accommodated in drill-halls when use of the same was discon­tinued?

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).­The answer to question No. 1 is as fo1-lows:-

30th June, 1924, 961; 31st July, 1924, 1,503; 31st August, 192-4, 2,202; 30th September, 1924, 1,594.

The figures show a reduction of about 600.

Mr. EGGLEsToN.-An Increase of about 600.

Mr. PHENDERGA8T.-The honor­able member has caught the wrong nsh.

Mr. EGGI,EsToN.-I have caught ex­actly what I wanted.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-The answer to question No. 2 is-

(a) On the 1st September, 1924. (b) The Powlett-str~et Drill Hall was closed as an un­employed shelter because the Defence· authori­ties required the building for their own pur­poses. No other suitable accommodation was available. Other arrangements were then made to provide for necessitous cases.

Again the honorable member has caught the wrong fish.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-You have not answered the third que~tion.

Mr. PRENDERGAe,T .-The answer to question No.3 is 124.

VERMIN. DESTRUCTION ACT.

Mr. HUGHES.-I move-That there be laid before this House a re­

turn showing-1. 'the total cost to land-holders in fines and

costs through prosecutions under the Vermin Destruct.ion Act from 1910 to 1922.

2. The cost incurred in enforcing section 17 of the Act ,against land-holders for the same pedod. .

·3. The expenses claimed 'by and paid to rabbit inspectors f'or the same period, giving th~ names of and amounts paid to the in­dividual claimants.

The motion was agreed to.

WHEAT MARKETING BILL.

The debate (adjourned from October 2) on the motion of Mr. Hogan (Minister of Agriculture) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. LAvVSON.-From a· st.atement which he made to the press, it seems that the Premier has de,rived consider­able consolation from the fact that at a meeting held at Will aura a resolution was carried in favour of a compulsory wheat Pool. Within the last haH hour some very reliahle informa,tion has been communicated to me with regard to the meeting. I am informed that the-re were seven farmers present, and that the resolution was carried unanimously.

Mr. TOUTGHER.-It was supported by five out of .the seven.

Mr. LAvVSON.-Then I should like to amend my statement, 1\11'. Speaker­there were five in favour of the resolu­tion and two against it. On the other hand, the honorable member who re1pre­sents vVillaura has received from his constituency alone no less than 30 tele­grams from individual farmers advising him that the opinion in Hie district is

JVheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 697

very definitely against this proposition. During the course of this debate the Ministry has been invited to take a referendum of the farmers in regard to the measure, and by that means en­deavour to ascertain exactly what the wheat-growing community thinks o,f the proposal-whether or not it is in favour of compulsion in regard to the miO\-rket­ing of wheat. I confess that I 'have no pe1rsonal knowledge with reference to the matter, and I do not feel that I am in a position to speak authoritatively as to what the views of the farme,rs are. There is, of course, a constitutional way by w~ich the opinion of the wheat­growelrs can be obtained, that is by the expression of their opinion at a general election. Because members on the .Ministerial side of the House fa,vour a compulsory whe1at Pool as part of their programme, and members :representing the Farmers Union party in this House are alsol in :favour of it, i~ may be assumed. that there is a preponder­ance of opinion in favour of compulsion in regard to the marketing of wheat. FrOiJll evidence which has been submitted to me, it seems very doubtful whether honorable members are correctly voicing the opinions of the wheat-growers iu regard to this particular matter. A ret.urn has just been handed to me indi­cating that petitions have been signed in various electorates by a number of wheat-growers. Those petitions have been hurriedly got up.

)\111'. HOGAN.~Hurriedly organized. lVIr. LAWSON.-It shows that in the

electorate of Swan Hill there are 214 farmers who ha,ve signed a petition in opposition to the Bill; in Gunb ower , 318; Korong, 324; Lowan 339; Benalla, 203; Goulburn V alle,y , 182; Borung, 267; Kara Kara, 159; Rodney, 147; Hampden, 113; Waranga, 76; Eagle­ha,wk, 39; Stawell and Ararat, 34; Maryborough, 22; Dundas, 5. These 2,442 farmers represent an area under wheat of 684,605 acres. Of course, it may be said that those figures repre­sent a small percentage ot the wheat­growers and a small percentage of the acreage sown with wheat. That may be so or not, but it must be remembered on the contrary that the petitions have been, as the Minister interjected, hurriedly organized, so it seems to be a very satisfactory result for the brief period of time a.vailable

for the purpose of ascertaining what the mind of the wheat-growers is. To the request that there should be a relferen­dum of the growers, th.e ~![inister has replied that in 1921 such a referendum or poll was taken, and that 80 or 90 pelr cent. of the growers then indicated that they were favorable to the continuance of the. compulsory whea,t Pool that had been in operation for many years.,

Mr. WARDE.-How many refused to sign those petitions ~ Did they tell you that 7

Mr. LAWSON .-1 have ,not been ad­vised on that point.

Mr. WARDE.-Of course not. Mr. LAWSON.-I am not urging

t,~at it is an authoritative expression of the mind of the w heat-gro.wers, but. I do know that there is a very considerable body of. opposition to this proposa.l, and that opposition come~ from the wheat­growers themselves. During the debate honorable members on tlhe· Ministerial side of the House have said that that opposition is inspired, that it is inspired by men who have a pecuniary iute,rest in the trade, and that it is not a genuine expression 0'£ opinion. Honorable mem­bers cannot fail toO realize that there is a very strong and insistent body of opinion against this particular proposal, and I think that a request t.ha.t a referendum should be taken is a perfectly reasonable one in the circumstances. Not that I would consider myself bound by such an expression of opinion-I want t.o be per­fectly candid. Because after an eoc­pression of opinion by the wheat-growers we refused to introduce in 1921 a measure for continuing the compulsory wheat Pool, the Minister said that there­fore our hands are no,t clean in regard to this matter. I t will be remembered that the war was Olver then, and we felt that the time had arrived for de-control· -for the removal of the interfering hand of the State from the contrOlI and marketing of OIur produce so that trade might revert to' normal channels. An election was fought on that issue, but when the House met an a.rrangement was arrived at by which the Gove1rnmeut backed by a guarantee a voluntary PQol, and I submitted to Parliament at that time a measure' fOir the creation of the Victorian Wheat-growers Corporation. Under the law a voluntary Pool has been in opera.tion eve'r since. There is, of course, a majority of houorable membe,rs

698 Wheat [ASSEMBLY. ] Marketing Bill.

in favour of the second-reading of this Bill-in fa,vour of the principle tha,t there should be w ha,t the Minister calls organized marketing, or what is popu­la,rly known as pooling, and it shOlUld ·be enforced by the compulsory powers of the State. I take the strongest possible exception to that. I regard it as an instalment of the socialistic idea. I regard it as toying with very dangerous principles. I think that inevitably it is a step towards the objeo­tive which hanora.ble· members apposite, in perfect candor, put before their caill­stituents--the satCia.liza,tion of the means of production, distribution, and ex­ohange. If they had full power, suoh a scheme in their hands would be a very definite step towards the realization of the,ir objective.

Mr. fIOGAN.-Does the honorable mem­ber know that it does not apply to primary industries ~

Mr. LA vVSON.-I should say that primary industries were included in the means a.f production.

Mr. HOGAN.-Do you know that the particular canference which carried that excluded primary industries ~

Mr. LAWSON.-I can only put my intrepretatian an the English language that I have ?een taught. The objective of the platform is socializatian of the means of productia.n, distribution, and ex­change. If, as the honorable gentleman says, the conference exempted prih1ary pra.ductia.n, that is news to me.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The, Govern­m:ent has told us that they are bringing forward only what the conference told them they ought to bring forward.

Mr. HOGAN.-I am telling the honalf­a.ble member that the ca.nference which carried the resa.lutia.n regarding the ob­jective excluded primary industries from its operatia.n.

Mr. LAWSON .-If that conference did exclude primary industries from the intention of the objective, all I can say in reply is that the Minister, in intro­ducing this Bill, is departing from the principle, of his party, because he has in­troduced something which is· a definite i.nstalment of State contra.l, or State ownership, a,f this particular primary pro­duct. We have to: face that position. Compulsion has found its place, in the law a.f the country. We say, "Thou shalt do this," and "Thou shalt not do .that," and the predominant considera,tion in

affirming whether compulsion is a prin­ciple which ought to be applied or not must be the public good. The Minister, in his seca.nd-reading speech, referred as a precedent to Pharaoh',s Pool, which was managed centuries ago. by a man named Joseph. RIB put that fOorward as a pre­cedent fOor the compulsOory Pool which he is na."o/ submitting for the consideration of this H(')use. Pharaoh's Pool may be a valuable precedent for· action by a Ga.ve:rnment in time Oof national emer­gency. On that occasion the cOountry was threatened with famine, the coming of which had been revealed to. Pharaoh in a dream, and interpreted by Joseph as indi­cating that there were tOo be seven years O'f plenty and ,seven years of famine. To prepare for that particula.r national emergency, J O'seph devised a scheme for .. pooling the wheat, which was can'ied a.ut. Joseph proved himself a .keen .business man, and the honorable member for Boroondara, whose knQowledgeof Scrip­,ture is probably more profound than that Qof the Minister of Agriculture, was able to show that the conclusion Oof that Pool was that the whole population was brought tOo a state of slavery.

lVIr. TUNNECLIFFE.-Is this a Bible-class prQoposition 1

1\11'. LA V\7S0N.-NO'. But it seems to be the fashion of the Minister to quote Scripture. He referred to. this particular Bible sta.ry as a justification fa.r the Rill, and I found, when I carefully read through his ,speech in H~ ansard, that it was the only argumel1t I. could discover in favour of this particular proposal. I could find no Qother argumernt which would support the intrQoduction of the, Bill now before the House, and I alsO' found that the precedent does not apply. We are now in normal times. These are times of peace.. There does na.t appear to' be any reason to fear a shortage or a famine; therefO're, that precedent entirely goes by the board. .As I read the speech, I could na.t help thinking-~nd I am speaking now purely in a political sense-of these lines in the Jl{ erchant of Venice-

Mark you this, Ba'ssanio, The devil can cite scripture for his pur.pose. An evil soul, producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek, A goodly apple rotten at the heart. 0, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!

If the Minister requires a biblical pre­cedent in the future, I hope that he will find something that is more appropriate to' the occasion.

Wheat [7 OCTOB~R, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 699

Mr. HOGAN.-It is quite appropriate. lVIr. LAWSON.-It is not. Mr. HOGAN.-Did you read the quota­

tion from Rob Roy MacGregor ~ M.'r. LA WSON.-I paid' the Minister

the compliment of reading' the whole of his speech. I want to' make another ob­servation in regard to this ~ebate. Read­ing llansard, one discovers that there has been no attempt on the part of honorable memoers opposite, otherwise than by in­terjection, to justify this proposaL. The honorable member fOor Glenelg, in his modest effort, put in a few words in favOour of Portland. He attempted to' show that by the establishment o.f a com­pulsory Pool the port of Portland might coone into its own. But he in no way discussed the principle involved in this Bill. He had nothing to say as to how this proposal would be advantageous~o wheat-growers, nor can we regard hIS speech as one in support of the Bill. I congratulate him on his maiden effort, thaugh it plainly dealt with a matter absolutely subsidiary to the main ques­tion. All he was concerned about was the development of Portland. The lVIinister of Agriculture made a second speech on this Bill with your consent, Mr. Speaker, and with the cOonsent of honorable mem­bers on the Opposition side of the House.

Mr. HOGAN.-I did it at their request. Mr. LAWSON.-I would not have

raised any obje~tion to this second speech if the Minister had dealt with the ques­tions which were submitted to' him. It was to allow him to reply to observations from the Opposition side of the House that we depa.rted from the practice in conducting our debates. The Leader of the Farmers Union party, ill his speech­which, after all, merely gave a kind of blessing to the principle of a compulsory P.ool-asked certain questions. He wanted to' know whether the guarantee could be increased. During the course of the de­bate, Ministers, by interjection, have in­dicated the,ir attitude in regard to that matter perfectly plainly. They have said that in view of the prOospects for this sea­son it would be perfectly safe to pay more than the amount which has been men­tioned as a first advance, and the Minis­ter quite frankly told the House that he or the Treasurer was in communication with the Gommonwealth Bank and the associated banks for the purpose of get­ting an increase in the amount of the ad­vanoe.. But that does not deal with the

principle of the Bill. That is a. matter O'f machine,ry and administration. The other point the honorable gentleman spoke about was in regard to the pay­ment of fees to the membe,rs of the Board. That is a matter of expediency after all. The labourer is worthy of his hire, whe­ther he is gathering in the harvest or con­trolling the m~rketing O'f the product. He is entitled to a reasonable remunera­tion. That is a m~tter which can easily be adjusted, and no vital principle is in­volved in it. I have always favoured the idea that we should not pay so' much for attendance at mee,tings. The mere regis­tration of a man's name in an attendance book does not count fO'r anything. His value to the Pool, or the body he is asso­ciated with, depends upon his knowledge, his efficiency, and his interest in the work. In view of the fact that members of this Board are to be elected by the wheat-grower,s, we ought to trust the wheat-growers in regard to the payment for the services of the men they elect, and they would' e,xpress their judgment of the way the men discharged their duties when they came up for re-election. It­does not matter whether the payment is £1 lIs. 6d. per sitting or £500 per annum. Personally, I believe in the payment. of a lump sum, but that is largely a matter for the wheat-growers themselves. T'here need be no qua,rrel in regard to a. matter of that kind. Then the. other, and the vital point, that the Leader of the F'armers Union party sought infor­mation about was the constitution of the Board itself. In other words, was it to be a Board that would be la,rgely inter­fered with 0'1' controlled by the Minister or the Government, or was it to be a Board representative of the wheat-growers themselves ~ The proposal in the Bill .is that the Board shall consist of five mem­bers, three to represent the growers, and two to be nominated by the Governor in Council. That is the crucial pa,rt of the Bill. It involves principles of the first magnitude. Does the Government pro­pose to allow the whea.t-growers to manage the marketing of the wheat themselves, or does it propose to interfere ~ It was upon those points that informat.ion was desired, but the Mini~~er, in his reply, made no pronouncement on that big ques­tion. I.am going to ask the Premier, before the second-reading deba,te closes, to give the House a very aefinite sta,te­ment with regard to the attitude of the Ministry on that vital point.

700 Wheat [ASSEMBLY. ] Marketing Bil~.

Mr. TOUTCHER.-The Ministelr, in reply tOo a question of mine, stated the other day that the purpOose of appo[nting two representatives of the Government on the Board was that they might keep a watch­ful eye Oon the finances as millions of· pounds wOould be involved.

Mr. LAWSON.-Is it to be a wheat­growers Board, as desired by the Farmers Union party, or is it to be a Board on which the "Government will be definitely represented in the interests of the taxpayer and the people who a.rtl gua.ranteeing certain advances ~ The' Go­vernment, by virtue of this Bill as submitted, is giving certain very definite privileges and immuni~ies to a, particular co'rporation or body. The Ministelr made no reply tOi suggestions offered in regard to that matter. He said that he would be happy, when the measure was in Commit­tee, to confer with the honorable member for Rodney, and to give consideration to the requests that had been made.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-As the late Sir Thomas Bent said Oonce, (( The Minis- . ter was oyster."

Mr. LAWSON.-Or, as the Honorable Duncan Gillies would have said, "That is too thin."

Mr. HOGAN .-Had the hono,rable mem­ber read Hansard he would have found that I did state wha,t the purpose of hav­ing Government representa.tives on the. Board was.

Mr. LAWSON.-It may be that I am dense and unable to understand the King's English as printed in liarnsard, but I frankly confess that I do not now knorw-and I do not think there has been any clear declaration from the Govern­ment in the matter-whethe,r the Go'­vernment proposes tOi adhere to the proposed constitution of the BOoard as submitted in the Bill, or whether it pro­poses ~o adopt the suggestion Q1f honorable members in the Opposition cOirner. What I ,ask is that some responsible Minister, the Premier for preference, shall enlighten the House by giving a very clear declaration of wha,t the Gove,rnment's POilicy is in rega,rd to that particular matter. Then the're was the other point arising out of the criticism of clause 24. That clause provides some prOitection for the consumer in the, event of a,n unreasonable price being fixed by the Boa,rd, or of wheat being unreason­ably withheld . from local consumptiolJl. A similar clause was in the Bill by which

the voluntary POiol was crea,ted and by which the wheat-growers' corporation was brought into being.

.1\1r. HOGAN.-It was clause 18 in that Bill.

Mr. LAWSON.-That is so. After reading the Minister's speech, I came to the conclusion that all he had said. was that that clause had been included in the Bill that was intrOiduced by the honorable merrnber for Castlemaine, when Premier, and that the hOinorable member fOT Allandale (Sir Alexander Peacock) and the honorable membelr fOir Hampden (Mr. Oman) were in the Ministry that intro­duced that measure'. I do not know whether the Minister is going to stand to tha,t proposition or not. Yet that was one reason why the House said, (( We . will not object to a second speech being made by thel Minister of Agriculture."

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOcK.-Moreover, the honorable member for' Goulburn Valley, following upon the speech Q1f his leader-the honorable member for Rod­ney-pressed for a declaration from the Minister on that and other points.

Mr. LAWSON.-I dOl not think it is a good parliamenta,ry practice to have two speeches from a Minister on one subject.

Mr. SLATER.-The attitude you COiIll­

plain of in the Minister of Agriculture was consistently your own attitude,. You ha,ve always said, (( Get the Bill into Committee, and we will mould it there.· J

Mr. HOGAN.-There is only one prin­ciple at stake. Tp.at is-Are you in fa,vo'llr of a cO'mpulsory wheat POiQI or are you against it 1

~Ir. LAWSON.-There is a very de­finite difference between a wheat-growers Board run in the, interests of the wheat­grOowers, contrOilled absolutely by t.hem, with public finance to support it, with special immunities with regard to the carriage of whe,at, and with the po,wer of prohibition in the matter of transport, and a BOiard that is created by the Go­vernment tQl, in the interests of the wheat-growers and of the peQlple:, control the marketing Q1f this commodity. Here we ha,ve a very definite principle. It is not a matter of expediency, not a matter of administra,tion, not a matter of machinery, and I think the House is entitled to a definite expression of o'pinion from the front bench in regard to it. There is a reason fO'r our standing order tha.t a member shall not he' permitted to .

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 701

speak twice. Surely .the Minist~,r 0'£ Agriculture does not thmk that he IS the only occupant of the front bench whO' is capable of defen~in~ the Bill, or .of ex­pounding the prmClples of the BIll. I should be sorry to think tha,t he' thought such a thing, and I have nut .s~ch a poor opinion of the c~pacity of MInIsters as to suppose that they could not get up and defend their own Bill. What has been the practice from time im:nemorial ~ 'Vhen a big measure has been mtroduced by a Government, and it has been fought strenuously by the Opposition, a Minister gets up and answers the arguments that have been used. He puts up a fight for the Bill. But there has been no fighting by honorable members opposite .for this Bill. There has been a conspiracy of silence. Except for interjections by Ministerial members, and for two speeches that have been made by the Minister of Agriculture, there has been no attempt to debate, to expound, or to elucidate this proposition.

Mr. HUGHEs.-You established' that precedent. ,

Mr. LA WSON.-If I established that precedent in the parliamentary gov~rn­ment of this country I did 'a wrong thIng. But I did not do so. There were times when a "stone wall" was being put up by members on this ,side of the House,

, that Ministers submitted to-­Mr. CArN.-Self-denial. Mr. LAWSON.-Yes, to a self-denying

ordinance. But whatever self-denial was then shown, it was as nothing to the s~lf­denial of honorable members OppOSIte, who for example, refused to say" boo" to the Redistribution of Seats Bill.

Mr. HOGAN.-We could not get a word in sideways. , Mr. LA WSON.-I have never known

the honorable member for Warrenheip unable to get a word in whenever he has wanted to.

Mr. HOGAN.-Your Ministry "stone~ walled" the Redistribution of Seats Bill. We are not "stone-walling" this Bill because we want to get to a vote.

Mr.'LAWSON.-When the Redistribu­tion of Seats Bill was before the House, Ministers fought for their measure. They explained it in the House and put up a fight. I do suggest to the Premier that we do not want to establish the bad parliamentary precedent of the Minister

in charge of a Bill making his second­reading speech, and then, before the de­bate is concluded, of asking the indulgence of Mr. Speaker and honorable members whilst he makes a second speech, especi­ally when leave having been given to' the Minister to make a second speech for a specifi,c purpose, that purpose is not ful­filled. But that is the position.

Mr. HOGAN.-My second speech was made at the request of the Leader of the Opposition.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOcK.-For in­formation in reply to the Lea.der of the F'armers Union party.

Mr. HOGAN.-I did not want to make a second speech. I only did so to satisfy the Opposition, and 'apparently I did not· satisfy them.

.Mr. LA WSON.-The second speech might have been justified if the Minister ., had explained the attitude of the Govern­ment in regard to two vital matters. He did refer to two matters. There was the advance that was to be made, as provided for in the Bill, and the Minister had said, "This is the first advance. We hope to do better than that." The second point was in regard to the fees, which was inconsequential. The two vital things the honorable member for Rodney wanted information about, were the constitution of the Board-the proportion of representation 'and the ele,c­tlon or nomination of the chairman­and the fixing of a reasonable price for wheat as set out in clause 24. The Min­ister glided over those points very' skil­fully. I give the honorable members composing the Government credit for a great amount of political ingenuity, not to say political cunning. I know that they ·are playing their cards with con­siderable skill, from their point of view; I give them credit for that. But in this Bill they are up against a proposition in which they will find it exceedingly diffi­cult to reconcile conflicting interests. Honorable members representing the wheat-growers want a compulsory Pool in order that the growers may get the highest market prices obtainable. Hon­OI'able members opposite, as soon as they went on to the Treasury bench, said, "We are going to have an inqlliry into the price of commodities; we say that bread is too dear." You cannot have a

702 Wheat [ASSEMBLY. ] Marketing Bill.

high price for wheat and have also a ism to the marketing of this particular cheap loaf. product, they propose to do it, and they

Mr. HOGAN.-Yes. In Queensland, provide, not only for the representation where there is a compulsory wheat Pool of the wheat-growers on the proposed they get the high~st 'price for wheat, and Board, but also for the representation of pay' the lowest price for bread. the Government and the public. The

Mr. LAWSON.-The honorable mem- Government are to be represented, pre­ber knows that Queensland is not a wheat- sumably first to watch public finance and growing State. to see that the interest of the taxpayer

Mr. RoGAN.-I say that it is. is guarded-that there is some voice or :Mr. LA WSON.-It is not a wheat- say given to the Government in exchange

growing State'to any considerable extent. for its financial guarantee-and in the The wheat-growing States are New South next place to see that the Pool, being a Wales, Victoria, South Australia, and great monopoly, does, not exercise its Western Australia. monopolistic powers against the welfare

Mr. WARDE.-They have to pay for of the comm~nity Or to impose high their wheat in Queenslandl prices on the consumer.

Mr. TouTcHER.-If there is a loss the Mr. CAIN.-Do you object to that part Government take it out of the Consoli- of it? dated Revenue. Mr. LA WSON.-I object to the whole

Mr. HOGAN.-Does the honorable mem- scheme-lock, stock, and barrel. . ber for Castlemaine want to prevent the Mr. CAIN.-YOU are putting up an ad-consumers from getting cheap bread? mirable case for the Board.

Mr. LAWSON.-We do not want any- Mr. LAWSON.-I was saying that thing of the kind. We want fair prices, there are two proposals, and that the first and it is in the interests of the whole of these is Socialism. The other is a commun:ity and the financial stability of kind of syndicalism. Honorable mem­the State that the primary producer bers perhaps do not realize it, but there should be properly rewarded, and ade- is a kind of syndicalism which would quately remunerated for the work he give full monopolistic power over not does. No one desires to see either the only the growing of wheat, but also the farmer' or the consumer exploited, but marketing of wheat, so that a producer we want to see that prices bear a fair would, be helpless unless he was a mem-, ratio to the amount of work and her of the syndicate. money involved in the production of Mr. HOGAN.-YOU used that argument the article. What I was saying was that in 1921, and you applied it to the Far­the Government have a most difficult mers Union. :problem to solve. .W~at they: w~uld do Mr. LAWSON.-I do not depart from If they had a maJo:nty, or If, In con- t.he pronouncement I made in my policy ~exion with this Bill they were. entire~y speech of 1921. If the Leader of the Independe:r:.t. of my honorable frIends In . Farmers Union party-and I am sure he the Oppos.ltlOn corner I do not know. is acting innocently and without realiz­But Jud~mg by the speeches made ?y ing the political principle involved-gets the P:er~ller .when he :V~S kept so long In his way in regard to this measure, there the dIstm~~Ished :POSItIon of ~eader of will be no representation of the Govern-, the OppOSItIon, wJllch were all In favour ment on the Board. We will hand over of ~he c~eap loa~ and of the consumer to this particular body the managing gettmg hIS full rIghts, we may guess the committee of this compulsory Pool, the line of action he would adopt. How absolute power to deal with our wheat. would he ensure the cheap loaf? There There is always a danger in creating a ar~ t~o principl~s ~nvolved. One is the monopoly unless you can bring .in the prInCIple of SOCIahsm-- restraining 'hand of the Government to

Mr. CAIN.--'There is only one prin- prevent its greed and rapacity. I am not ciple involved in this Bill, and that is making any charge against the men who the cutting out of the middleman. handled the compulsory Pool during the

Mr. LAWSON.-I will deal with that war and the subsequent voluntary Pool. aspect of the question in a rp.oment. So They were very estimable gentlemen, and far as the Government can apply Social- efficient in their work. They rendered

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bi.ll. 703

important service to the wheat-growers and to the community, but there isa clear distinction between the proposal that the Government shall grant distinct privi­leges and immunities for the purpose of aiding this industry and the general wel­f are, and the proposal to hand over to the wheat-growers by legislation a com­pulsory power to make all wheat that is grown go into that monopoly,' and then not to restrict the use of the power, but to give full parliamentary authority to ~x prices. No doubt a proposal of that kind would work innocently enough, but there is always a danger in giving too much executive authority to a body of that kind when there comes into the operation, .in the exercise of their duty, the motive of self-interest. I am not making any personal reflection on the wheat-growers nor on the people who managed the Pools, but I say tha,t' the principle is one that it is dangerous to toy with.

Mr. WEAvER.-Are you not 'making a l'eflection on the representatives of the wheat-growers?

Mr. LAWSON.-No. They do not rea­lize what the position is. Here is the position: Supposing the Leader of the Farmers Union party were introducing this Bill himself, and his amendments were incorporated in it, you would then get a proposal that all the wheat which you grew should go into the Pool, a proposal that you would not sell wheat except through the agency of the Pool, and a proposal that would en­able the Board to prohibit the railways from carrying wheat without authority.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-people can sell wheat with the permission of the Board.

Mr. LAWSON.-There are oertain -definite' exemptions with regard to wheat. for fowl's food, and so on.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-They can sell wheat for seed, fowl's food, and other things.

Mr. LA'VSON.-That does not affect the main flow of this great product, and those a,re minor matters which, for the purpose of discussing the principle in­volved, we need not· take into account. We do not know how the monopoly would be exercised, nOor how the power would be used, but very definitely a monopoly would be cre'ated in the interests of the wheat growers. Knowing human nature as I do, and with the experience of the

exercise of autocratic powers throughout the ages to guide me, I think that we ought not to create in the marketing olf wheat an autOocracy. We ought not to give absolute authority to anyone, and, therefore, if there is to be a compulso~y Pool, and the Government are going to say to the wheat-growers by legislation, "YO'll cann~t sell your whea,t except through this agency," there ought to be reasonable rep~esentation of the Govern­ment on the Board, and reasonable safe­guards to protect the public interest.

Colonel BOURCHIER.-Yau are not in favour of a growers' Pool 7

Mr. LAWSON .-Of a voluntary Pool, yes. Justification for interference, so far as I h~ve been able to foHow the debate, has not been proved ill the course olf the various speeches that have beeu made. I do not propose to discuss figures and prices. There have been statements made as to the prospective course of the market, and the p~ice like1ly to be realized. All those statements are in the nature of prophecy. Noone can ,dogmatize as to the course of the market. We all know that the failure of the crop in Canada would have a rettlex act.ion here, and up would go the price of wheat. The price of wheat dep-ends upon a variety OIf econ­omic considerations, and Victoria, or even Australia, canno't control the position. That is well known to honorable mem­bers. If you were to give the authority that the honorable member for Rodney would seek if he were the Premier, and were, introducing a Bill along the lines of his amendments, you would give to t.he wheat-growers' representatives on the Board absolute control and dictation as to the marketing of wheat and the price at which it should be SOlId. I do not say that with any feeling of antagonism or unkindness for memb€JI's in the Opposi­tion corne,r. It is because of the political principle, and the principle of liberty in­volved in this matter, that I oppose the prOlposal for compulsion and the second reading OIf the Bill. I am not going to deal with the question of prices, handling chargp.s, and so 0111·. There have been statements made in that regard, but they have nOit been proved. What justifica­tion could be urged for the introduction of a proposal OIf this kind-for using the p()IWe,r of the State to market this par­ticular product ~ Very heavy penalties are prOlvided. The attitude of Ministers in thIS connexion is very diffe,rent from

704 Wheat [ASSEMBLY.1 Marketing Bill.

the attitude they adopted when they sat in OppositIOn, and opposed practIcally every penalty we submitted in legislation. Almost invariably they fought strenu­ously for a. reductIon.

Mr. HOGAN.-Never, when it was a question of preventing profiteelring.

Mr. LAWSON.-l am not going to fight the hOonOorable gentleman on the question of penalties. If the Bill be­come8 thb law of the Stat,e, it ought to be honored. '

Mr, HOGAN.-We took the penalties from your Act, but we reduced them con­siderably.

Mr. LA WSON.-In so far as the hon­orable gentleman has followed pr~cedents I established, I commend him. 1 was trying to say, when I was put off the track, that there would be justification for the Bill if hOonOorable members Oon the Ministerial side of the HOous,e, or hOonor­able membel1) ~_n ~he Opposition corner, could prove that there was a ring, a com­bine, Q1r a mOonQlPoly in re1gard to the marketing of whelat, and that a powerfUl private enterprise combination was beat­ing down the wheat-grower and prevent­ing him from getting fair value fOor his produce. If there were such a mOonopoly, and if there were nQlt in the marketing of our wheat a healthy element Q1f competi­tiQln there might be justification fOT using the complilsory pOowers of the State tOo break dQlwn that mOonopoly, and to secure for the wheat-growers a fair return for their labour. In those circumstances I cQluld understand hQlnorable members saying' that the compulsory principle is essential fOol' honest trading, and for the well-being Q1f the community, but t.he case has not been pro:ved so far as I have fOollowed the debate.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-There has been no attempt to prove it.

Mr. LAWSON.-The-re has belen no attempt to sholw that there is a monopoly or a ring in connexion with the marketing of wheat. In reoent years the1re has been healthy competition betwe1en the volun­tary POIOI and the agents Q1utside.

Mr. HOGAN.-The purpose of the Bill is to prOovide for Q1rganized marketing Instead Q1f haphazard me,thods.

Mr. LA WSON.-The whea,t-grorwers can prQlvide organized marketing by the creation of a vQlluntary POIOI, if 'they themselves will give it the support such a Pool should command.

Mr. JAcKsoN.-They would not s,up­port it if they thQiught they could beat their ne1ighbours fOil' 3d. without it.

Mr. TouTcHER.--.Are those the people you want to he'lp 7

The SPEAKER.-The time allowed the honorable member fQlr Castlemaine has expired.

l\ir. LAWSON.-I had quite a lot more to say, but I do not want to ask for an extensioln of time.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-How much more time do you want 1

Mr. LAWSON.-I do nQlt want any mOore time.

Mr. PRENDERGAST.-Yoru can have. an hQlur or two mOore if you like . You have not developed any points yet.,

Mr. LA \VSON.-I appreciate the courtesy o.f the honQlrable gentleman, but I do not desire to take advantage Q1f it. The Bill is a very serious interference with the liberty of the wheat-grower to delal with his produce in his Q1wn way, and he should be allowed that liberty, provided he dOoes nQlt exercise it in a way that is inimical to the rest Qif the com­munity. It is an interference with the rights of private property, which is the, foundation of society, an interfer­ence with security, stability, and law, and order, and an abuse of the power of Parliament and of government to com­pel men to market their produce in a way that is not in accordance with their own wishes, provided they are law-abiding citizens, and not infringing the rights of other people. I therefore hope the mea­sure will be defea,ted. I know the num­bers are up so far as, this House is con­cerned, and that it is futile to oppose the Bill, but, in conclusiQln, I urge the Premier to give the House a ve1ry clear and de,finite indication as to the attitude of the Government in regard to, the twO' vital principles to which I have alluded.

1\11'. POLLARD.-I desire to say a few words in support of the Bill. To my mind, the measure is simply a proposal to make sure that those of the farm­ing community who are engaged in wheat-growing will receive the full market value for their whe'at. It is not a proposal to- e,na ble them to fleece the community, nor to take more from the consumers than they are justly entitled to, nor more than what is the world's parity at the pa.rticular time. Ample provision is made in the Bill to ensure that the Whe'at I{oard will not

Wheat [7 OCTDBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 705

have the pQower to. take more out of the labour which he has put into pro.ducing consumers than wha,t is a reasonable the wheat. Having financial backing he, price. Honorable members on the Opposi- therefore, holds his wheat. His less tion side have expressed a fear that the fortunate ne~ghbour is, ho.wever, forced, Bill is an attempt to. fleelce the cQonsumers not because he is lazy, but by the in this Sta,te, and e,xtort from them more circumstances, to' take what is Dffered jn than a, fair price f.or bread or whelat. In Dr del' to pay the interest Dn his mDrtgage, clause, 24 we find that it is prQovided and his living and labDur expenses. With that- thel open ma,rket, if theife is a rise in

Whenever the Governor in Council is satis- price, it is the man who. is wealthy and fled that the Board refuses to sell at a reason- least neleds i t whO' rece,i ves the' full benefit able price wheat for the purpose of converting because he has been' able to. hDld his the same in Victoria by any process of .man~-facture into commodities for consumptIOn III wheat. Victoria, or unreasonably refuses to sell wheat Mr. EGGLESTDN.-If there is a rise. for the purpose aforesaid, the Governor in Mr. POLLARD.-In the majQority of Council from time to time- . t h' Wh I d

(It) may cause inquiry to be made into the ms ance's t ere IS. eat specu ators 0' matter, and in particular as to what not buy unless they are on a good wicket. in the circumstances is the fair Under the PDol bO'th parties are on abso­market value of wheat on the basis lutelly the same level, and receive exactly of which the Board should be re-quired to sell the same-- the same relturn for thelir labO'ur_ In my

o.pinion that is Dnly a just thing. Much and so on. That gives the consumers has be€Jll made of the fa,ct that with the a,mple protection. So. much for the fear vo.luntary system which has been in opera­of honQorable membe,rs opposite as to' what tion, it rests with the farmell"s to put will be the effect Qof creatmg a compulsory their wheat into such a Pool. Last year

Po~;. TDUTCHER.-Will the Government somelthing likel 80 pe,r cent. of the grQowers put thear whea,t intO' the vO'lunta,ry Pool,

stand by tha,t 1 b t . +~, ltd d I . h Mr. POLLARD.-I should think so. u pnvalft:l spelcu a, ,ors an ea elrs, WlS -ing to' smash the Pool once and for all,

:Ml'. TDUTCHER.-They will not say. went about offering Qd. or l~d. a bushel Mr. POLLARD.-The GQovernment more than the Pool was offering, the ult,i­

have been dected, in my opinion, if nO't mate idea being to wean the farmers from in the honorable member's, by a majority that Pool. of the people in Victoria, and they will Mr. PENNINGToN.-The volunta,ry Pool stand to it. did not o.ffer anything. It only made ad-

Mr. TOUTCHER.-I think that that is vances. a very goo.d principle. Mr. POLLARD.-We,u, those agents

:Mr. POLLARD.-And it is the inten- offe,red mo,re than thel voluntary POIOI was tion of thel Bill. advancing. This yea,r we find that the

Mr. TDUTCHER.-I was asking if the supporters of the vQoluntary Pool we,re Government arel going to stand by it. whittled down to 60 per cent. The idea

Mr. POLLARD.-Undoubtedly. of the private buyers has been to' attract Mr. TDUTCHER.-Well, rumorur says the farmers away from the voluntary Pool,

that they are not. . and, a,fter getting the buying into the,ir Mr. POLLARD.-Rumo.ur is a liar own hands, offelr what prices they wish for

in this instance. In c:onuexion with this the whe1a,t. This year priva,te buyers, pooling scheme', the point tha,t appe'als to beolielving that thel pooling system was me is that it gives absolutely fair play to doomed to failure" were offe,ring 5s. ld. the man of small means. Take two and 5s. 3d. a bushel, but when they found farmers, one of them wealthy and the tha,t there was a prospect of a, Labour other struggling. Both put the, samel Government establishing a Pool, a,nd en­labour into. tilling thel soil, and both in- suring to the farmers the full market value vest the, same amount of ca,pital. Under of their wheat, they immediately offered thel open marketing system, when the 6s. and 6s. 4d. a, bushel. It has been whea,t has been harvested, a privatel urged that priva,te buyers do treat the buyer cO'mes along and says to the, man consume,rs fairly, but the1y will treat them with capital, /( r will give you 4s. a no more fairly than the Wheat Board bushe,l for yo.ur wheat." The we,althy will. The Whela,t Board is not going to grower considers that it is not a fair qffer, fleece the consume'rs. It will :not extract and will not recompense him for the any more from them than private buyers,

706 Wheat [ASSEMBLY. J Ma'rketing Bill.

but it will see tha,t thel whelat-grQiwe,rs get the belnefit of any ,rise in the market. Under thel open marketing system that benefit goes to the wh€lat sp€lcula,tors. We want it to go to the growers who work by the swea,t of their brow for the whelat that they produce. I have already.shQlWn that the,re is adequate prot€ction in the Bill for the consumers. As regards co-opera,­t.ion, I unde~stand tha,t provision is made for the handling of wheat by co-operative. societies. I shQiuld like to see the co­ope~ative societies in whIch the farmers of the State a.I'e1 shareholdeirs given aoll abso­lut.e monoPQily of the handling of whelat in Victoria,. In reply to an interjection of mine the olther day to the el1felot that the Victorian Producers' Co-operative Company had handled the wheat more cheaply than any priva,te firm of buyers in Victoria, the honora,ble, member for Toorak denied the truth of that state'­ment. TQi a celrtain extent the honorable membe'r was right, but I oaoll etXplain the position by pointing out that if it had not been for the Victorian Producers' Co-operative Company, the price of handling wheat in this State would have been a 1d. or 2d. a bushel more than it is to-day. During the 1917-18 Poo.1 priva,te firms made an o,ffer to Mr. Hagerlthorn, the then Minis­ter of Agriculture, tna,t they would handle whea,t for thel Pool at 2!d. a, bushel, but they did that without the con­sent of the representative of the Vic­torian Producers' Co-operative Company. At a meeting of shareholders of this com­pany they decided to reduce the handling· charges to 2id. per bushel. Immediately the private handlers of wheat .became aware of this fact, they also reduced the handling charges to the same rate. If honorable members will look up Hansard of October, 1917, they will find a refer­ence by the honorable member for Hamp­den to this proceeding, and drawing par­ticular attention to the fact that the Victorian Producers' Co-operative' Company had saved the Pool £83,000 by the reduction in the handling charges.

Mr. EGGLEsToN.-That was the result of competition.

Mr. POLLARD.-That was the result of the Victorian Producers' Co-operative Company showing their capacity in hand­ling the wheat against that of private speculators. Even the Victorian Pro-

ducers' Co-operative Oompany made a profit in handling the wheat at 2id. per bushel; but they were making it for the farmers and not for a few speculators.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-How did they dis­tribute it to the farmers?

Mr. POLLARD.-They did so both directly and indirectly, and returned mil­lions of pounds' to the farmers.

Mr. PENNINGTON.-The Victorian Wheat Corporation, which has been operating during the last three years, has not yet declared a dividend.

Mr. POLLARD.-I have received money from the corpora,tion. The honor­able member for Hampden and others have extolled the virtues of co-operation. I wish the honorable member for B:amp­den were in the House just now, because r should like to ask him why he does not put his wheat through the Wheat Corporation.

Mr. EGGLESToN.-:-I suppose you got that from the Wheat CorporatIOn.

Mr. POLLARD.-It does not matter where I got it from. That is my busi­ness. No attempt has been made to refute the argument that the establish­ment of the wheat Pool confers certain benefits which those. who do not join in the Pool take advantage of, just in the same way that non-unionists benefit by the formation of unions. A few years ago· I was engaged in buying stock, and I said to the man that I supposed he was a shareholder in a co:operative society. He replied, "No; why should I pay into a concern, when I can reap all the benefits without investing ,any capital? It is from poor fools like you that I reap benefits." That is what happens with a voluntary Pool and the open market scheme. A good deal of inspired propaganda has been indulged in against a compulsory wheat Pool. The Argus, in a leading article to-day, slates the Premier for something he said to members of the Locomotive Engine­drivers' A.ssociation. The Argus is un­able to distinguish between a handling medium and middlemen. It 'classes loco­motive engine-drivers as middlemen. J liSt imagine a great paper like the Argus bei:p.g unable to distinguish between a speculator and a handling medium. We admit the necessity of having carriers such as locomotive engine-drIvers,' t~.

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 707

transport wheat, but we do deny the necessity for speculators in products of, this sort. So much for the criticism of the Argus. I thought it had more brains and common-sense. In the past it has beeu able to pull wool over the eyes of the p.eople of Victoria, but the day is coming when the· producers of this State will handle their own products and get the full value of them. Many letters have appeared in the press on the estab­lishment of a compulsory Pool, but a number have been written which have not been published. I hold in my hand an extract from a letter received by Mr. H. A. Lutze, of J ung,written under date the 19th August, 1924, by his brother, Mr. A. A. Lutze, a well-known wheat-grower of Coromby, who grows 4,000 bags of wheat annually, and who is at present on a tour of America and Europe. The extract I am about to read was sent by a Wimmera farmer yesterday to the Age and the Argus in good time for publication in to­day's issue, but neither of the papers has seen fit to reproduce it. They only pub­lish letters backing up their own side of the case. ,

Mr. PENNINGTON.-How, then, did Mr. Glowery's letter get into the press ~

Mr. POLLARD.-They slip in one or two to further deceive the producers of the State. The extract is a,s follows:-

Canada has impressed me very much, and they show great interest for Australia. You have to travel through Canada to realize its greatness. LUist year their wheat yield was 496,000,000 bushels; it was a record for Canada. This year the prospects are not so good, and their latest estimate of this year's harvest is about 250,000,000 bushels.

In some of the districts where we travelled it is very dry; farming is carried Qn dif­ferently here to Australia; it is all cut with binder and then threshed. We were ruble to get right out on the farms. The farmers here and in the 8tates have had a bad time during the last two years, owing to low prices. Financial depression everywhere, and land values down nearly 50 percent. Farmers do not know what their land: is worth, no one will buy, things are so uncertain. More than half of the farmers are in difficulties owing to low prices for their .produce and high prices for what they buy. ,

From all I have heard and seen here, in the States and in Canada, pooling the wheat has been the salvation of the Australian farmer. Personally, ~ am a stronger pooler than ever, and I say it will be one of our greatest calamities that ever befel the Aus­tralian farmer, if they have to sell in the open market again only. Here in the State,s, specu-

lators have made millions trading in wheat and corn, inflating prices, when it is out of the farmers' hands.

The honorable membOlI' , fotr St. Kilda said that the growers of wheat operated on the Chicago Wheat Exchange. .According to this gentleman, who writes from the spot, speculators have made million~ of pounds on wheat which has passed out of the growers' hands. The honorable member for Castlemaine re­ferred to petitions that had been received from wheat-growers throughout Victoria, but he did not tell us what steps had been taken to prove that the signatures on those petitions were genuine. We know that since this proposal came before Par­liament open-market buyers and specu­lators have done everything in their power to get up an agitation against the Bill. They have toured the country, and we have been told that they have got dead-beats, employees of storekeepers, and an:>: b?dy else they ,could to sign these petItIons. Wheat-growers are going to benefit by this Bill, introdu.ced by a Labour Government.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The honor­able member for Kara Kara saw people at the Show voluntarily signing' these petitions. Why are you insulting them?

Mr. POLLARD.-Those who remain outside are "scabs," whether the hon­orable member likes it or not. Why did not the honorable' mem­ber listen to my speech, instead of making an interjection just after he has come in?

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-YOU are in­sulting decent citizens by calling them " scabs" anel "elead-beats." ,

Mr. POLLARD.-I desire to correct a false impression. I diel not say the non-pooling wheat-growers were "dead­beats." I said they might be "scabs." I intend to vote for the second reading of the Bill.

Mr. DOWNWARD.-On the 18th August, 1921, during the election of that year, I spoke at Koo-wee-rup, and referred to a deputation that the honorable mam­be,r for Hampden in his speech last week . mentioned that 'he ha,d received. A good de,al has been said about the bribe offered through this Bill to rarmers. The honor­able member for Boroondara talked about a, bunch of carrots. Such talk will not apply to me, as I am not a wheat-grower,

708 Wheat [ASShilVIH L Y .] Marketing Bill.

nO'r 'am I inttlrested in whe,at-growing ill competition. Therel were plenty of ship$ any sha,pe or form. I have, no relatives and plenty of credit to finance the Com­who grow wheat, neither do my consti-' 'monwealth Gove,rnment's proposition, and tuents grow it. But in the election speech the price of wool rose rapidly. It is no, of 1921, to which I ha,ve referred, I said- use salying that people, shall bel a.llowed

In regard to the wheat Pool, the Ministers to destroy a. market just be'ca.use that of Agriculture of other States 3.sked the Minis- market happens to be manceuvred by a ter of Agriculture for Victoria to meet them few spelculative buyers. I have. h~d ex­in conference to consider the question of con- pelrienoo in the sales of me,at. I have tinuing the wheat Pool for another year, but he did not await the arrival of the Ministers of seen the time when my fat sheep did not the other States, but received a deputation sell for much more than the value of their from wheat speculators and shippers, who skins, whilst mea,t was beling exported. urged that the Pool should, cease, and he What was the reason for tha,t ~ Thel rela-

. yielded to this demand. son, as we soon discovered, was. that

I find, also, that I used thesel words- specula,tolrs and buyelrs had secured the I shall vote against any Government that whole of the relfrigerating space in the

brings about the de-control of wheat, because ships. Thelre, is not thel slightest doubt I do not want to see the wheat-grower get into the position of the wool-grower. There are tha,t wei shall find. tha,t speculators have thousands of sellers, and only a few buyers, secured the available shipping space by who will bear the market. charte[' , leaving nO' one else the oppor-I referred to wool beoause of my own ex- tunity to export whe'at. It is the, object pe,rience when the wool Pool was te,rmi- of the rings of buyers that are formed to nated. The Pool was no soouer termi- eliminate competition. It was because of na,ted than the wool buyeTs organized, and my knowledge, of what happened in regard informed all and sUIldry that there were to mea,t that I decided tha,t I would not no ships. They said the ships had all support a Govell'nment that went in for beeln sunk, and that there was no money de-control of whea,t,. I saw that the to give credit for the wool. The.y offe.red whea,t speculators and roonopolist,~ made 3d. and 4d. a lb. The wOOolbroker I sell more out of the whe,a,t than did the man through advised me not to send in any WhD grew it. While they made large skins unless thel staple was very long, as fortunes the· wheat-grow€,rs had tOo take it would not pay tOo sell them. N ow this wha.tever priool thelJ chos'e to give.. Th€'re matter was quickly remedied, nDt by is nO' such thing as competition amongst means of a Pool, but by a very much more these people. Therefore., no one need be arbitrary act. on the part Df the Federal surprise,d a,t the effOorts tha,t aJ:'e. being Govocnment and of the Governm€lnt Df made in aU directions to make it appear New Zealand. Australia could not that· the wheat-growers . themselves are afford toO have its wool thrown away. nDt ill fa.vour of this Pool. Thel houor­Quite apart from any consideration for able melmbe,r for Hampden gave the the wool-grower the' country could nOot speculators a,TId shippe,rs a favorable aff,o,rd that. In New Ze,aland the posi- answer, although he knew perfectly well tion was still worse. The Dominion de- that a poll of wheat-grow€,rs had been pends morel la.rgely upon its pastoral pro- taken, with the re,sult tha,t 12,100 of them ducts than Australia does. We have' voted for a compulsory Pool, and only la,rge secondary industries, whilst New 1,002 voted, against it. Those were the Z,ealand has few, if any, se,eOondary indus- figures. I am not one who would tolerate tries. The Commonwealth Gove,rnment a corner in any produce., thereby making simply issued a ukase tha,t no' wool should it dear to the consumer. But I do sa.y be exported from Australia, tha,t did nnt tha,t thel whe,a,t-gro,welf has a· right to suoh bring an a,verage pricel of Sd. a lb. They a price for his whela,t as will give him a did not ten-d,er thel wool-grower any pro- reasonable; rate of interest, sa,y, 5 per gress payment. They did nothing at all cent. on the capital he has invested, and fOor him eocoelpt tOo take the control of his for his own labour a return Df lOs. or product out of his hands. 12s. a, day. I belielVe that when the com-

Mr. OMAN.-Was any wool held up in pulsory Pool is brought about, wei shall consequence Oof tha,t prOoclamation 1 be able to eliminate. altogether the prD-

Mr. DOWNWARD;-It was not held' fits of the shippers and spe.culators, with up for very long.'rha,t only shows that the. result .that the wheat-grOower will get the ring of buyers had COome to an under- more for hjs whea,t, and thel consumer will standing in \ regard to the elimination of 'Pay less fOor his bread. Vi"l e know how the

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketi11{/ Bill. . 709

market is rigged . We know tha:t the millers refused to supply flour to bakers who would not charge a certain price for the 41b. loaf. Then we helar a lot of talk about free and open competition. There: is no such thing as competition. The elimination O'f competition is no new thing. My first experience of it goes back to the time when I was a boy, and when Cobb and Company were running their coaches to MO'rnington, and to all other parts of the State. They not only charged a very high fare, but they also tendered at a very high rate for the car­riage of the mails, and anyone who dared to' oompete with them was made to' suffer. There was a Mr. HO'yt, at Morn­ington, who tendered fOol' th~, mails, and got the contract. Cobb and Companv had been charging lIs. to carry passen­gers from Melbourne tOi Mornington, but they reduced that fare to' Is. either way, and within a. very short time Mr. Hoyt became insolvent. We were told that the, s~me thing was often done by Cobb and

. CO'mpany. As soon as they h~d run Hoyt out of the business they not only restOored their former fare, but incre,ase'i it by Is., taking advantage of the mOonOo­poly they enjoyed. The same sort of thing is occurring wherever mOonopolie3 exist. When the war brOike out, and the Federal GOovernment decided tOo take Oover and cOontrol all our wheat wool meat and butter, they fixed pri~es th~.t wer~ very little higher than the, pre-war rates Wheat, for .instance, was sold at the pre~ war rate of 3s. 9d. a bUr3hel on the rail­way statiOon. The Federal Government gave the wheat-growers 4s. 9d., and they paid to the wool-grower ls. 3d. per lb. They fixed prices in such a way that it was quite impossible for a man to make high prOofits. I worked my land during the whole o.f the war period,,,,nd I know that the producers cOould not expect to make even 5 per cent. on their capital at the prices fixed. Take the case Oof the wheat-grower. Freights were increased the price of bags rose" and there was als~ a considerable a.dvance in the cost of labour. The 4s. 9d., which was paid to him by the Federal Government, was no better than the 3s. 9d. that he received in the pre-wa.r yea.r. But the 4s. 9d. was made the fixed price, nOit only fOor the period Oof the wa,r, but for one year therea.fte-r. It will be seen that very complete pre­cautions were taken to prevent any-

thing in the nature Oof prOofiteering, soo far as the primary producers were concerned. Will anyone say that the same statement can be made in reference to the manu­facturer, the importers, or the shippinrr combine 1 Certainly nOot. We know tba~ the profits made, both here and in Eng­land, during the war period were scan­da.lous. Mr. BOonar Law admitted his participation in the pLrO'fiteering in Eng­land. He introduced a war prOofits tax ?f 40 per cent., which was subsequently mcreased to 60 per cent, and later to' 80 per cent. He was met with a storm ()f abuse from those who were interested ~n shipping" and he then gave his own ex­perience. He said that he had put £8,100 into fifteen different steamship companies. At 5 per cent. he woruld have got £405. In 1915, he got over £3,000; in 1916, £3,350; and in the fOillowing year, £3,500, and, he added, significan.tly, tha,t that was after the war profits tax had been paid. When Mr. Austen Chamberlain became Chancellol" of the Exchequer, he desired to. ascertain what amO'unt of money could be raised by a levy Q1n war prOifits. An investiga­tion took place, and it showed that the war profits of 75,000 people in the periOod of five years had amounted to £2,800,000,000. No att-empt was made in England nor here to interfere with the profiteering that took pla,ce.

Mr. PRENDERGAsT.-An a,ttempt was ma.de hele~ and the profiteers have not yet paid the whole of their taxes.

Mr. DOWNW ARD.-I admit that cer­'tain precautiOons were taken. If r live to' see another war I shall not be oppo'3ed to the elimination of all unreasonable profits during the war period. I should not Oobject if the producers were allowed to earn about 5 per cent. ou their capital, and lOs. a day for their labour. But th~ principle, if .int~oduced, should be given general applIcatIon. The difficulty that confronts us on the present occasiOon is that just now ~heat is selling very well, and the necesslty fQir a POiol is not as urgent as it haa been in the past and as it will be in the futurel. There has been some talk about taking a referendum. but when the previo~s Government gOot a re­ferendu~ they dId not act upon it. We are hav.mg . the same experience and trouble m Glppsland, in connexion with our butter, as we have had in dealing with OIther p.roducts. There are co-operativ~ companles whoae object it is to give the

710 Wheat [ASSEMBLY. ] Marketing Bill.

butter producers the full value of their butter, less only the expense incurred. The proprietary cDmpanies, however, come ;n and give to' some peDple a higher price with a view to'disrupting the whole move· ment and creating dissatisfa.ction. I have here a circular which has, I think, been sent to all honorable members. It is from the Mildura District Council O'f the Aus­tralia.n Dried Fruits Association. The'y do . not seem to' think that there is any­thing wrong in cO'mpelling a. minority tOo hand Dver the product of their fa.rms t() pre,vent it fr-om being sold under condi­tions that will be disadvantageous to' the majority. In t,his circular it it stated that" ll.t a meeting of growers held a,t Mildura, on Saturday, the 13th Septem­ber, the following resolution was passed-

That, in view of the contemplated action of the Federal Government by submitting the Dried Fruits Export Control Bill, this repre­sentative meeting of growers requests the vari­ous State. Governments immediately to pass a Compulsory Dried Fruits Pool Bill.

They give reasons for the necessity for a compulsory Pool fo~ dried fruits, and 1 was struck wi,th their similarity to the reaSO'D6 that have been urged for the establishment of this compulsory wheat p.ool. They say-

The Australian Dried Fruits Association is a Voluntary Dried Fruits Pool, to which 85 per cent. of the growers are loyal; the re­maining 15 per cent. are "outsider~."

The " outsiders' " methods are to offer fruit at below A.D.F.A. prices-to sell their fruit in Australia-to thus get the benefit of the main­tained home market without bearing any of their share of export. N ow that is exactly what the proprietary companies are doing in Gippsland in their efforts to handicap and injure the co­operative butter companies that are operating there. Therefore, th~re is no­thing new or strange about this method. It is quite plain that a few people can demoralize' a market, and we know that it is absolutely imperative that we should get away the surplus produce. If the surplus cannot be got away, prices go down as they have gone down in the case of potatoes this year. There was no means of getting away the surplus pota­toes. An over-supply had been grown. Some of my constituent8 had to take 30s. a ton for their potatoes, while others who were a little distance away from the railway station had to let them rot.

Mr. WARDE.-And the grocer charges 1d. and ltd. per lb. to the people who buy potatoes.

Mr. DOWNWARD.-We have to do something in the way of organizing mar­kets for the producers, because they can­not possibly carryon unless they get fair market prices for their produce. We want organized marketing. We know that if there are 1,000 sellers and only a dozen or a score or so of buyers, and the la tter are organized, they fix the price. That is what the buyers have done all through in connexion with wheat. The buyers would have done that in connexion with wool but for the action that was taken by the Commonwealth Govern­ment, and they would have ruined no end of people. I hope the House will not be influenced by the propaganda that is appearing in the city press. We do not expect anything from the city press, and we have g9t nothing from it. It cannot be said my electors did not know that I was in favour of a compulsory wheat Pool. I had no press backing at the last election, but a good deal of press mis­representation. I arranged for a meet­ing at Koo-wee-rup, and got the proprie­tor of the local paper to bring a short­hand writer along. The latter took down my speech, and several thousand copies of it were circulated amongst my elec­tors. I was quite independent of press backing. Everyone of the copies of my speech that went out showed that I would not support a Government that was prepared to de-control wheat, and the honorable member for Hampden well knows that I did not support liis Govern­ment after that period.

Mr. BROWNBILL.-It was that speech that made the electors vote for you.

Mr. DOWNW ARD.-As a matter of fact, the people in Gippsland were not personally interested in the wheat Po01 question. They were only interested in the general principle. We know that even at the low price wool was bring-ing-- '

Mr. OMAN.-Did the proclamation send up the price ~ The 8d. per lb. ad­vance did not bring wool up to 40d. a lb.

Mr. DOWNWARD.-No, but it soon rose to a normal figure. Weare all in­terested to this extent: . Wherever there are large investments and large numbers of people employed, our endeavour must be to make those investments prove good,.

Wh£at [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 711

and the people employed successful in rush in and make such advances as getting good returns. If that result is might cause the State to lose a good deal. not obtained a terrible depression imme- I know from my own experience of 50 diately overtakes 'the country. It was years on the land, and from the experi­the £50,000,000 a year that wool brought ence of my neighbours, that if the pro­during the war period that helped to ducers cannot get anything on account finance' Australia. It did not matter that they must throw,their stuff on the mar­thousands and tens of thousands of the keto In the case of fruit, the price was people had no personal interest in the about 7s. 6d. per case, and if the growers wool, indirectly they were just as deeply got 3s. 6d. per ca,se they felt that they interested as the wool-growers, and though could carryon. That is the great advan-I say that neither I nor my constituents tage of the pooling system. There is no ' have any per,sonal interest in wheat, we glutting of the market, and a progress are interested in seeing that the payment is made to the growers, which 50,000,000 bushels that can be raised in is very advantageous to them. Another Victoria annually return a fair price to great advantage of having a wheat ,Pool the growers. I shall be as zealous as any will be that the wheat-growers will bene­one else in trying to protect'the consumer fit from the great increase in weight that from any corner. In the first place, comes to the wheat by the time it reaches under the Federal Constitution, freedom England. I was told year,s ago that the of commerce prevails a~l over Australia. speculators and buyers who came here The State Government could not prevent practically landed their wheat on the wheat coming into Victoria from across London market without paying f~~ight the Murray or the South Australian at all. That is to say, there was an in­border. When the Queensland Govern- crease in the weight of the wheat that ment endeavoured to secure good condi- was equivalent to the freight. The in­tions for the dairying people in that crease in weight is very much more con­State, it decided that the 750,000 peo- siderable than people. generally know, pIe in' Queensland should, pay a fair and if there is a Pool that increase in price for butter. The res~lt was weight will benefit the grower. In this that the Queensland dairymen got a .case we know the Minister will be very very much better price for their glad to make a larger advance-he can butter than the Victorian dairymen do' it, with safety-than in other cases. were getting. But what was the em- We know that not one shilling has been barrassment 1 It was that the Queens- lost in connexion with a wheat Pool, nor land Government could not prevent the is there likely to be any loss. The assis­Victorian and New South Wales butter tance that will be given to the growers going into Queensland. The people of from a first payment of 3s. or 3s. 6d. per !his State .ha!e no g:ound at all for fear- bushel will be sufficiently substantial, in mg that. It IS pO,ssible ~hat, the Wheat my opinion, to enable 99 out of every 100 Board WIll charge the mIllers 8s. or lOs. , wheat-growers to carryon while waiting a bushel for wheat. The Board could for the next instalment to be paid. In not do anything o~ the kind .. 1 have been regard to the consumers, I say that we to~d by the f:uIt-growers In my con- should supply them with wheat at such stIt.uency that If they had a Pool from a price that it will just leave the producer whICh they could get an, advance of 3.s. 5' or 6 per cent. on his capital and a pro­a case, they would be able to p~y all theIr per daily wage. The producer will be out-of-pocket expenses, and theIr accounts quite satisfied with that. Then the Board at ~he shops. Wheat-grow~rs as well ~s can fix the price of wheat to the millers frUIt-growers mu~t sell t.helr product III at just the figure that will pay them. order to keep theIr finanCIal engagements. Eliminate the profits of the organized

lfr. WETTENHALL.-And they break speculators, and the Board, which will the market. . do all the chartering, will be able to pay

Mr. DOWNW ARD.-The result 18 a higher price to the grower and sell the that they break the market. We shall wheat at a lower price to the miller. Then have before us a proposal to help the we shall have to take care that the miller growers of dried fruits, and I am going does not charge a price that is not a fair to help them. I do not say that we should one to the baker. In the circumstances, I

712 Wheat (A8SEMBLY.] Mar keting B~ll.

care nothing for t~e opposition that has been raised to this Bill. I go by my own experience. I have always depended on that, and, having formed my judgment, I back it up with my vote. Still I always recognize that my constituents have a right to know where I stand when im­portant questions have to be decided. De-control of wheat was one of the ques­tions submitted to the electors, and, as I have shown, I made my position clear at the time. I circulated 2,000 or 3,000 copies of the speech from which I have given quotations to-night, showing that I intended to vote for a compulsory wheat Pool.

:Mi:'. WEST.-I de'sire to say just a few wQlrds befOire the debate closes. This Bill has been very fully and very thOiroughly deba,ted in' this House, es­pecially on this (the Opposition) side of the House, and there is very little more that can be said regarding it. It has been. suggested by some of the speakers that this is a measure that affects whe:a.t­growers only; that if the growers desire a compulsOiry P 0011 , Q1r if a majority de­sire it tha,t they are entitled to have it" and members representing other elec­to,ra.tes have no business to interfere. That is a position to which I cannot subscribe, as I think I have just as much right as anyone else tOi cOinside,r the pro­visions of this Bill and oppose it or ap­prove Of it if I think fit. The electorate I represent is not a wheat-growing one, alth~)Ugh some whe'at is grown in it; but the electors have an interest in the POQlI as consumers. They aTe interested as consumers, for every person is a con­sumer Q1f the whea,t product, and when this Bill is passed and the Pool is con­stitute,d, they will have to purchase at the price fixed. However, as consume:r:s, the whOile of the people of the State have an interest in this measure, but they are intelrested more especially be­cause of the fact that the people of the State, as a whole, have to give the financial guarantee necessary to enable the Pool to be constituted, and to take whatever risks are involved. It may be said that there is no risk, but I think, if the growers went to the banks with­out having a State guarantee behind them, the banks might look at the matter in a different· light, and the growers might not gelt the money. We know that in a sister State, where a guarantee

was necessary, the Government had to find £1,000,000 to dear themselves. There­fore, when we are asked to pledge the credit of ' the Sta,te and to place the whole of our financial resources at the disposal of the Pool for the benefit of one section of the producelrs only, we are certainly entitled to say whether the proposal should be agreed to', and on what terms. There are two parties concerned in this matter,. the 8ta.te and the whea.t-growers. This i~ a. p['o'posal to grant a substantial measure O'f assist.anc'e to the wheat-growing industry, and, therefore, we should end€a­vour to impose wha.tever conditions we consider to be fair and equitable. In common with otheT members w hOi sit on the Opposition side of the HQluse, I am opposed to a.. compulsory POOIL I am 0'Pposed to the State entering into trad­ing operations, because experience has shown tha,t business can be oarried on more effectively by private enterprise than by the GQovernment. We know that when the State has entered into trading' operations, they have in nearly every case resulted in substant~al finan­cial losses beLing pLiled up against the community. But while that is so, we knOlw tha,t circumstances aJ"ise when the State is oompeIled to' exercise powers such as those provided in this Bill. Such circumstances a,rose during the wa,l", and a compulsory POQoI was established. Tha.t was a proper and necessary step to take. SimilaJ" cjrcumstances might arise in the future, but no one has attempted to show that they exist to-day, or that a ~easure such as this is necessary for the preserva­tion or maintenance of the wheat-growing industry of this State. Wheat-growers, generally speaking, are almongst thel most prosperous of primary producers. As a body, they have been doing exceedingly well fo[" a number Q1f years'. They are not only able to' grow wheat, but they are quite capable of marketing it. If they desire to dispose of the,ir wheat. there is always the ope'll market available, which will acoept their w heat at a remunera­tive price. If they like to. form a voluntary Pool, the matte,r is in the,ir own hands. The~ have plenty of opportunity without calling on the State fa.r assistance. If we compare the wheat-gra.wers with other sections of producers, such as \;he potato-growers, for instance, we find the forme,r occupy a. very safe position indeed. If one travels along the main Gippsland railway line to-day he will see thousands

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Mar~eting Bill. 713

oof tons of potato-es at railway sidings and other places waiting for transfer to an available market. Thousands of tons are rotting in paddocks because no market can be obtained for them. When they can be sold it is ali about half the cost of production. There are very many potato­growers who, are in straightened circum­stances, and they are very much more in need of assistanoe than wheat-growers, who are able to hold their grain, and have at all times a ready market avail­able If they wish to dispose of it. There is no economic justification for providing assistance to wheat-growers and negl€ct­ing other branches of primary producers, who decidedly do need assistance.

lVlr. HOGAN.-A Pool would not assist potato-growers, because we oannot ex­

.port potatoes outside of Australia, and cannot keep them from one season to another.

Mr. WEST.-That is a branch .of pri­mary production where assistance is greatly wanted, but' none is being given. Here we have the wheat-growers in a good financial position, as a body, and further assistance is be,ing giv€n to them without any economio. justification, though there may be political reasons for the action which is being taken.

Mr. HOGAN.-If the honorable member can show me any way in which we can help other industries, I can assure him I will do all I can to provide assistance.

Mr. WEST.-If this Bill is going to pass its second reading-and there is no doubt that it will-the State sho-uld have a reasonable amount of representation on any Board that is appointed to administer it. That is only fair in the interests of the peOlple who give the guarantee, and the consumers. The proposal in the Bill that the Board should consist of three wheat-gro1wers, and two representing the State, is fair and reasonable, and one which I would be prepared to support in prefe,rence to a ce'l'tain amendment which has been suggested. If the wheat-growers desire to obtain a.dvantages by the estab­lishment of such a Poo,l as this, they must be prepared to accept any disadvantages there may be 'assOlciated with it.. T'hey cannot expect to have one without the other. If they are going to have the assistance of the State, there must be a certain measure of St.ate controL If they want to manage their OIwn busin€ss, they must keep away from the State alto­gether. For these reasons I am gOling to oppose the second reading of the Bill.

Mr. McDONALD (Daylesford).-I desire to support this Bill. It was not my intention to take part in this debate, but seeing that members of the Opposition have twitted Minis­terial supporters with not speaking on this motion, I propose to say a .few. wO'rds. One objection rais·ed to thIS BIll by members of the Opposition is that the grOlwers have not been con­sulted in the matter. I claim t.hat they ~vere consulted in 1921, and they spoke III favOlur of a compulsory PooL I cannot see any justification for the statement which has been made in this House that if we were to take a poH of the wheat­grOlw€rs a majority would be against a compulsory Pool. We knQiw that the're is a voluntary Poo,l in existence at the present time, and, although the whole of the wheat was nQit promised fQir that Pool for this season, more than half of it would have gone through the Poo1. That shows tha.t the majority of the grqwers are in favour OIf a Pool. The growers, ho,w­eyer, know very well that, unless the Pool has the handling of the whole of the wheat, it will not be successful. :Mem­beTS ?f the Opposition know very well that If a Pool IS to be successful it must handle all the wheat grolwn in the State. The hono'rable member for Hampden seems to adopt a cc Jump Jim CrOlw" attitude. He told us that the compulsory Pool was successful, and in the next breath condemned it. Then he said he was in favour o-f a voluntary Pool kno,w-

. illg full well that such a Pool co~ld not be satisfactory, so far as the producers are cOlncerned,' fOlr the reason I have just stated. The honorable member for Hampden also referred to the fact that 80 per cent. of the .wheat went thrQiugh the voluntary Pool III the first se,ason, but only abQiut 60 per cent. in the last season. The reason for that is simply that the farmers realize that the whole of the wh€,at must go thrOlugh the Pool if· that system o,f marketing is to be successful. It was because the whQile of the whe,at was nQit sent to' the Pool that there was a fall­ing off .Qif 40. per c.ent. Anoth€'r thing in conneXlOn WIth thIS matter is that before the,re was any talk of a compulsory Pool speculators toured wheat-growing areas and offered 5s. to 5s. 3d. per bushel fo; wh€'at. As soon as there was a possibility of a compulsory Pool being fo'rmed the same agents went thrQiugh the same dis­tricts, and offered 6s. 3d. a bushel. I

714 Whe~t [ASSEMBL Y.] Marketing Bill

know of no reason why there should have beeu an increase in the price offered ex­cept the fact that it was proposed to es­tablish a compulsory Pool. Member~ of the Opposition suggested that the,re mIght be a drop in the price in mid-winter, and that that would affect the producer. Very good. They, however, favour a vO'luntary Pool, and would not this sug­gested drop in the price affect the pro­ducer under a voluntary system just as lUuch as with a compulsory Pool 1

Mr. OMAN. - No one would be com­pelled to' join unde'r the vOilunt.ary system,

Mr. MeDON ALD (Da,ylesford). -The honorable member knows, as I ha.v(~ already said, th<.Lt an the wheat ~ust be Dut into a Pool if it is to be successfull~T ~anaged.

Mr. OMAN.-Could nart that be' said in favour of compulsorry unionism ~

Mr. McDONALD (Daylesford).-I cannot see what compulsory unionism has to do with a, compulsory wheat POOIL

Mr. OMAN.-YoU want to get the same result. ,

Mr. MeDON ALD (Da1ylesford).-Tbe honorable' membe'r for Hampden told this House that the last compulSary. Pool was successful. Why would nat a c()Iillpulsory Pool now be successful ~ If it were suc­cessful under the Gove,rnment af which he was a member, it is just as likely to be successful unde'r the present Gavernment. I at any rate claim that it will be.

Mr. EGGEsToN.-That does nO't follaw. Mr. MeDON ALD (Da,ylesford).-The

honO'·rable member for Castlemaine told us this afternO'on that thi& was the first in­stalment. af SO,cia.1ism. If t.hat is So', and wheat-O'rO'wers have twelve months' ex-o . perience of the compulsOiry PO~llllg system, they will all be ardent SOCl~hsts. . There is one other matter I deSIre brIefly to

-refer to. The proposed payment to !ll~m­bel'S of the Board of £1 lls. 6d. per SIttIng is, in my opinion, wholly inadequate. I am in favour of the payment to each member of the Board of £500 a year, the payment to be continger:t ?-pon attendance at a given number of SIttIngs. I support this measure to the hilt, and I shall be surprised if honorable members opposite do not come round to our way of thinking.

Mr. PENNINGTON.-I had the pleasure of visiting my electorate last week for the first time in seven months.

I knew nothing about the proposed com­pulsory whe.at Poo,l until my return to VictO'ria a fortnight ago. -On visiting my electorate I was somewhat surprised at the nature of the opposition to this mea­sure. I found that members of the Farmers Union, who strongly opposed me when the compulsory wheat issue was fought 'a few years ago, were now amongst the most ardent opponents of the measure to be found anywhere. The reason, I think, is that when the proposal was pre­viously before the country the price of wheat was low. To-day, the price is over 5s. a bushel. Farmers who have been growing wheat for the last 20, 30, or 40 years realize that the price now offering is above the average of normal years, and they do not care to lose the opportunity. of gaining the immediate benefit. I think the price is somewhere in the vicinity of 6s. at the present time. I maintain that if a vote were taken, among the farming community on this issue, a great majority of farmers would be against the Pool.

Mr. POLLARD.-Your party lost six seats at the last election on that issue.

Mr. PENNINGTON.-That·issue was not raised. I am certainly in favour of a voluntary wheat Pool, because it gives the farmer an opportunity to sell so much of his wheat as he desires to meet his obli­gations.

Mr. McDONALD (Daylesford).-And it gives the speculator a chance to swell his banking account.

Mr. PENNINGTON.-The farmer owns his wheat, and he is entitled to do what he likes with it. What would the honorable member for Daylesford say to me if he had a credit balance at the bank and I were to tell him that he must put it intO'· a jim-cra,ck affair ~ I am against the compulsory Pool on principle. A voluntary Pool is a good institution, in­asmuch as it afford's an O'pportunity to the farmer to sell what wheat he likes, and if he desires to speculate with a ·cer­tain proportion of it, he can do so. He may put 1,000 or 2,000' bags into the voluntary Pool and take the market rea­lization on his wheat. As far as my own constituency is cancerned, I certainly gathered the impression-and there was a good gathering at the St. Arnaud Show -that the farmers were decidedly against the compulsory Pool. I shall vo~e a~ainst the Bill, not only to meet theIr WIshes,

, Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 715

b1Lt because I am against the principle of compulsion.

Mr. CAIN.-YOU have always been against it.

Mr. PENNINGTON.-I admit that. Petitions have been presented to me within the last few days from 159 wheat­growers who farm 51,000 acres. Those, petitions were signed within a .day or two. If a referendum of farmers could be, taken, it would be found that a large majority of them are against the Bill. I do not want to delay the measure, be­cause I know that the numbers are up. But I do say that the compulsory wheat Pool will be detrimental to the interests' of the producers of this State. That is my own honest opinion, and it is the opinion of the great majority of farmers. We do not know whether the market will rise or fall. The price the farmer will get will represent the average value of the wheat during twelve JP.onths. The farmer. is not prepared to accept that responsibility. The honorable member for Dalhousie re­feN'ed to those farmers who could not see eye to eye with the Ministry in this matter as a lot of " scabs." The farmers of Kara Kara are intelligent men, and they can manage their own affairs with­out State or other outside interference. In my opposition to the Bill I voice their opinion as well as that of farmers throughout the State.

The House divided on the motion. Ayes 37 No~ 20

Majority fOol' the second readingl 17

Mr, Allan " Allison " Bailey " Bond

Colonel Bourchier Mr. Brownbill

Cain Carlisle

" Clough Cook

" Cotter " Downward " Frost " Hayes " Hjorth " Hogan " Hughes " Jackson'

Keane " Lemmon

AYES.

Mr. Lind " Mackrell

McAdam " McDonald

(Daylesford) " McLachlan " Pollard " Prendergast

Slater " Solly " Tunnecliffe " Wallace " Walter " Warde " Weaver " 'Vettenhall.

Tellers: Mr. Jewell

" Webber.

Mr. Angus Dr. Argyle Major Baird Mr. Beardmore " Deany " Eggleston' " Everard " Farthing

Gordon " Greenwood " Lawson

Mr. Dunstan

NOES.

Mr. McDonald (Polwarth)

" Morley " Oman

Sir Alexahder Peacock Mr. Snowball " Toutcher " 'Vest.

Tellers: Mr. Groves '" Pennington.

PAIR.

I Mr. A. A. Billson (Ovens) .

The Bill was read a second time, and committed.

Olause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2-(Interpretation). Mr. OMAN.-The clause contains the

following de:6.nition-"Authorized contractor" means any person

(including firm or corporation) authorized hv the Board to take delivery of any wheat on a purchase thereof by the Board in exer­cise of its powers under this Act and also any agent employee or servant of an author­ized contractor empowered by such contractor to act as his agent in taking such delivery and any agent. employee or servant of SUell agent. . f

The other night I showed that the hon­orable member for Lowan was in favour of compensation to those people who were likely to be displaced from their businesses through municipal trading in milk, and I then asked the Minister what he proposed to do in regard to the men who have, perhaps forr the last quarter of a century, been earning their living by handling wheat. There may be a disposition to say that there is no necessity to consider the men who have handled the wheat, and only to look at the big buyers of wheat-men 1ike Mr. Harold Darling, Mr. Bell, and others. I had in my mind men in the wheat­growing centres who, some of them for more thana quarter of a century, have gathered wheat at the railways from the farmers in their districts. These men have established homes in the wheat­growing centres, and their occupation means their livelihood. If this Bill passes the two Houses, by a decision of the Board these men may be eliminated, and they will have no -opportunity of earning a living in the way they have dOone so 10rr the past 25 years. That is why I spoke sO' strongly on the measure. I said that it would destroy

716 Wheat lASSEMBLY.] M a'J'keting Bill.

commerce in this State, and it is ce1'­tahlly going to destroy the opportunity of perhaps 1,000 men in the great wheat­growing centres to earn a living in the way they have earned ,a living in the past. I want to ascertain if the Govern­ment have any consideration for these men. They are not millionaires. They have probably established homes, and have families dependent on them. They are going to be turned out at a moment's notice.

}.III'. BAILEY.-Who? :Mr. O:MAN.-The agents who gather

the wp.eat. Mr. BAILEY.-The middlemen who

have been living on the primary pro­ducer.

:.Mr. OMAN.-In members of this ~ouse we have middlemen who are living on the people of this State. There are at least 1,000 men in the State who have been getting their living in the way I have stated. Two of them live in my own township.

}.Ill'. BAILEY.-Let them go and grow . wheat.

Mr. OM1\..N.-The Minister indicated that if the Board acted on his ad­vice it would place the whole control of gathering wheat in the hands of the co·· operative companies. The men who have been operating on country stations on be­half of private enterprise firms have been

. keen competitors against the co-operative companies, and I venture to say that in many cases the' co-operative companies would have no time for them, and would not give them employment. They would have to. take up some other calling at once. They are to be displaced, but not because they have done anything against the laws of the country, at a time when wheat is rising in price from day to day. Some honorable members smiled when I said, a week ago, that possibly we should see 7s. a bushel for wheat. Now we are within measurable distance of that figure. We have the admission of the Ministel' to-day that f.o.b. 6s. 7!d. per bushel is available.

Mr. BAILEY.-How pleased the farmers 'will be who sold at 5s. ld. per bushel.

Mr. OMAN.-If I sold at 5s. ld. per bushel I would sell on the market of that day~

:Mr. BAILEY.-You know perfectly well that the man who has to sell is the man who canno1t ho'ld his wheair-the weak man.

}lr. OMAN.-The Bill will not get over that difficulty. It provides for the control of all wheat, but the Board win not eliminate the provisions that have previously existed in regard to dealing in certificates. To-day certificates in the voluntary Pool are bought by speculators, and the man who must obtain cash for his wheat gets 3s. Sd. per bushel-3s. net. Under the Bill the big speculators who are prevented from dealing in wheat can step in and buy scrip.

Mr. POLLARD.-Why not do something to prevent thaH

Mr. OMAN. - To-day that scrip would be readily bought by the man who wants to buy whe1at on the basis of 6s. 7 td. per bushel. He would be in the same position as if he had the wheat~ except that instead of having the wheat in his own possession to handle in a busi­ness way, he would be dependent on .the Board to handle it. I am not complain­ing about the Board. As I said previously, we have had good Boards in this State. I am not complaining of any of our public officers, but I do say that we should not, by any acts of ours, destroy the oppor­tunity of people who have been honestly earning their living to continue doing so

. in order to protect men w40 are well able to protect themselves. I have been in the magnificent rural town of Horsham. There are three or four magnificent gar­ages there, and more motor cars owned by farmers than can be seen in any other town of similar size in the State.

Mr. HUGHEs.-The Bill will not take the motor cars from the farmers.

Mr. OMAN.-The Bill proposes that a Board should take their wheat and handle it, because they are incompetent.

Mr. HUGHES.-Do you say they are in- . competent? .

Mr. OMAN.-No, the Government say that. I say they are more competent than the Government or any Board to deal with their wheat, and they have proved their competence by the results they have achieved. I am strongly opposed to the proposal to wipe out in one act the whole of the men who have been handling wheat for buyers in this State.

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 717

Mr. BRowNBILL.-Surely you are not asking for compensation for them.

Mr. OMAN. -I am asking for fair consideration for men whose opportunity to earn a living is being destroyed.

-Mr. CAIN.-YOU are putting more en­thusiasm into your case for those men than you have ever dop.e for any section of the growers.

Mr. OMAN.-The other night, when! made certain statem~nts, the Minister of Agriculture challenged them and said that 1 had not been too reliable in the past.

Mr. lIoGAN.-! said that, as a prophet, your role was Jeremiah.

Mr. OMAN. - Jeremiah was pretty accurate. The position is that I have neve,r ventured to' prophesy on more than fpur, O'r perhaps five, things, but they we,re all very big things. I will just say what they were, and then perhaps honor­able members may weigh mOire carefully my words. When our wheat-stacks were 18 miles 10'ng ·and were covered with flour-dust thrOillgh weevils, that seemed likely to destrO'y it, I said that it would be found that the damage was skin-deep, and that proved to' be the case,. I said that we would deliver a bushel O'f wheat for every bushel weighed intO' the Poo1. I was fully alive to the situatiO'n then, and kne,w w~ had already lost a, large quantity of wheat. The manager, of the Pool, one of the most relia,ble officers in the employ of the 90vernment then, a man who has rendered grea t service to the State-I refer to l\Ir. Baker-said, " I think you are in the soup. Yeu cannot do that." Anyhow, the thing has been tested by the results, which show that we sold 8,415 bushels more than were put into the Pool.

1\1r. BAILEy.-Was that brought about by your good management, Q1r by the increased weight of the wheat?

Mr. OMAN.-It was due more to gOiod management on the part of the men administering the Pool.

Mr. HOGAN.--The wheat would have increased in weight no matter how you managed it.

Mr. OlVIAN .-1 knQlW that whea,t has been weighed in country tQlwns since the voluntary Pool, and the district agents have been asked bv the voluntary Pool to' pay for shQlrtages in out­turn. . Why ~ Because the summer was dry. There was no rain to put the extra weight into the sacks. It did nQlt

trouble the wheat-grower to have his wheat out in an inch of rain, because that prQlvided mQlisture to create the increased weight. Then when butter was selling at 168s. a cwt. I predicted that under the new contract it would fetch 280s. a cwt., and four months afterwa.rds 280s. a cwt. was obtained fo·r that butter, Another occasion on which I ventured a prediction was at a small function at Skipton, at which, I think, the Minister of Public Instruction was present. To the smaJI group present I outlined some of the difficulties that I saw ahead. As the outcome of the war, I said that we would have to consider our financial posi­tion very carefully. That ""vas in March, 1914, and I then predicted that in the foHowing October bee·f and mutton WQluld be unsaleable in the London market. As far as beef is concerned, it has been prac­tica.lly unsaleable ever since.

Mr. CAIN.-Do you know anything for the Cup this year ~

Mr. OMAN.-I do nOit venture to express an opinion on any matter in which I am not interested. On that occasion I predicted that both mutton and beef would be almost unsaleable in the 1920 expQlI't season. I alsO' said, and it was not meant fQlr public announcement, that even lamb might not bring much mOire than 3d. a lb. Honorable member:.; have only to turn up the records, and they will see wh:;tt happened. The Minis­ter wanted to create the impression that 1 have misled the people o:f thIS State. If there is one thing I like, it is to· be honest and straightforward. I say fear­lessly that if this Bill inflicted an injury only on myself and the wheat-growers of this State, it would serious enough j but when a prQlPosal is put for­ward w:Q..ich will destroy the opportunity of a thousand people to make their living in Victoria without any provision for their employment in connexion with thE' gathering-in of wheat, I think I am justified in holding the Bill up until the' Minister says what he· proposes to do with regard to the men.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I should like to. support the position taken up by the honorable member for HampdE::n, and point Q1ut that the destruction Qlf the orga­nization engaged in the marketing of the wheat of this State is a dangerQlus thing forr the farmers. It is all very weH to t.alk about middlemen, but this Bill

718 Wheat [ASSEM,BL Y.] Marketing Bill.

will no,t reduce to any extent the num­ber O'f middlemen in this trade.

Mr. CAIN.-The'last speake,r said that there will be 1,000 men out of work.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-This Bill will l1O'i

reduce the number 0.£ middlemen, that is to say the number of factors which take toll O'ut of the wheat of the farmers. All it will do is to creat.'e twa mO'nO'polies. According to the statement O'f the lVIinis­tel', no.t only will a monoPO'ly be estab­lished with the creation O'f the Board, as the sO'le channel through which the wheat of the State can be distribut'ed, but tbere will be another monopoly-that O'f the co­operative companies. I think that there are only two co-o.pe.rative companies in Victoria that handle wheat, and they are to be the sole sellers of wheat for the Board. As a matter of fact, the Board has paid mO're commissions and mO're in­dependent charges than the wheat buyers. Under the open market system the num­ber of factors existing between the grO'wer in Australia and the consumers, both here and in England, is less' than under the system established by the Board. I do not suggest that jn many o.ther industries there are nO't to'o many different jnter­mediaries bet-ween the grower and t.he consumer. In the wheat t.rade at the present time, with the organization that exists, the number is less.

Mr. TUNNECLIFFE.-!\.nd the aggregate amount is considerably greater.

l\!Ir. EGGLESTON,-The honorable gentleman dO'es nO't knO'w that, and he has not attempted to prO've it. If it could be proved it would alter my position towards this Bill altogether. In the debate on the second reading we have had a lot of un­supported statements that have not been prO'ved, and for which no evidence has been adduced jn this House. The only one whO' has attempted to produce evi­dence is the hono.rable member for L'orwan. If hO'norable members read his speech

'they will find that the evidence is inoO'm­plete.. When I asked fO'r proolf, all that the Minister did adduce was that twenty years agO' the men in a diffe.rent business altO'gether, in a State 1,500 miles awa:;, sent a letter to the Railways" CommIs­siQlners there about something which had nO'thing to do with this Bill. That is the only evidence that the Minister at­tempted to give as to whether there are, too many middlemen in this trade.

Mr. HOGAN. - I can produce any amount of evidence, because we are not depending ou persQlnalities to carry this Bill through. The people o.f Victoria want O'rganized marketing fqr the sale of their products. I can criticize the peO'ple the honorable member is defend­ing, if I want to.

,lVir. EGGLESTON.-As I said befo~e, the Government are nCit creating the market. The honorable gentleman may describe this operation, tha.t the Whelat Board takes, as buying the wheat, but it is not buying it 'Solely. This Bill will destroy the markelt, and it will destroy the assO'ciatiQln of buyers and sellers for the sale· of this wheat. The honQlrable member for Hampden has PO'inted out tha.t there is a big organization which has grown up fo~ a number O'f ye·ars for the collectiQln of the wheat for the buyers. The Bill proposes, not only to scrap the marke.t fo.r whea,t in this' State, but that the men who are actually en­gaged in collecting the wheat shall lose their jobs, e.xcept those employed bv the cOl-operative companies. I suggest it is nQlt O'nly unfair to the men displaced, but it is a very unwise thing unless the hon­orable gentleman is going to assume tha,t the wheat POiol will last for a number of years. He has no right to assume t~is, and I consider it is a wrong and ui.­judicious thing to enforce the contin1!-a­tion of this POlOl, whe,ther the peQlple hke it or not, ar whether the results. a,re gO'od Q1r bad. I suppose tha.t if' this Pool mis­handled the crop the honQlrable gentle­man would be the first to say that it should gO'. The Pool will force a grea,t number of men out of business-the, men engaged in the collection af. whe~.t in the country towns-and It wIll thus destrQlY the machinery t.hat no~ exists for callecting,. the crop. It wIll put in its place on1y a tentative thing, experimental in chara.cter, and one that may not last. If this Pool came to an end at the end of the first year the men now engaged in buying the whea,t woul.d have left VictO'ria and disbanded the:Ir organization, and th~ oQluld only start again at gre·a,t expense. The tendency to combine to start a new Pool would then be very gre,a,t. Some unde.rtakiJ?-g. should be given tha.t the machine~ eXIstmg fO'r the collection of whelat should be re­tained. It was done during ·the war Pools and was I believe, successful. It would not inc;ease the cost of collection,

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 719

because the co-operative companie~have received their ra,te in the past, and I do not see that it will be decreased. In­stead of these companies being the only organizations, the wheat organizatiorns tha.t exist at present should, in my opinion, be ret,ained for two purposes. The first is,. because it would mean dis­bandment and the loss of the livelihood of a large number of men. The second is, because the organizatiorns should be in existence to continue the wheat mar­keting if the PoOtl is not a success and. the farmers rise in revQilt, which is quite possible. I suggest that the Minister should carefully consider this, because by giving the' whole of the work to the co-operative companies efficiency is not likely to be secured. There will be no organization with which tQi compare their w~rk, and they will get their flat rate, which is e,xceedingly high, and in future they will ha,ve' far less elxpense and far less work to do, because they will nOit be buying as against other individuals. I am not saying a word against the co'­operative companies, because I am a great believer in co-operation; but I do not think cOl-operation will be a· success if it is wet-nursed by the Government and bonuses given to cOl-operative com­panies because they are co'-opera,tive. If the co-operative companies are nQit able to compete a.gainst private enterprise, a.ll the Government are dOling is bolster­ing up an inefficient organiza,tion and making the farmers pay for it. I do not see why the farmers should pay. The Bill i~ crea,ting ~ monOlpoly for the cOl-opera­tIve compa.mes. I dOl not know very inti­mately the history of the co-operative co:q:t.panies, but I am tQild that neither the Victorian Producers' Co-operative Com­pany nor the Gippsla.nd and Northern Co­operative CQimpany has ever paid a divi­dend.

Mr. POLLARD.-That is untrue. Mr. HOGAN.-They are doing very well.

They have grQiwn from nothing, and in fifteen years have become very well estab­lished.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The Minister should find out whether the co-operative companies are living at the expense of the farmers, also what profits they made out of the w he,a,t handling.

An HONORABLE 1\1EMBER.-They made £20,000 for the year.

Mr.- EGGLEST'ON.-I will guarantee that if the honorahle gentleman will look

into their accounts he will find that while wheat handling brought in be,tween £60,000 and £100,000, the prQifits were £20,000. It must not be forgotten, too, that these people handled enormous quan­tities. Where a company is taking no risk, £60,000 to £100,000 is not great, but where a company is taking a risk and buying here and selling in other parts of the world the risk~ are grea.t.

Mr. HPGAN.-But your present argu­ment is two-edged. You said they were inefficient, and did not pay any dividends. Wben you are told that they made a profit Qif £20,000, you criticize them for making a profit.

Mr. EGGLESTON .-The profit they made out of the wheat was far greatet; than the net profit made by one of the cQimpanies.

Mr. POLLARD.":"-T'ha.t is not true. Mr. EGGLESTON.-The inference is

that the whole Qif the pro,fit, came from wheat, and that without it they would have made a heavy loss.

1\11'. SLATER.-Every· tendency of the farmer is now towards cQi-OIperation.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I hope it will be successful, but the party the honorable gentleman represents are bolstering up co-operative companies. There is another questiQin that is introduced' by some of the amendments proposed by the Go­vernment. Tb,at is the definition of wheat. I say that that definition is. unconsti­tutional. The Minister should give an undertaking tha,t the pre,sent organiza­tions, with their staffs, engaged in the collection of wheat, should be retained in some way or other. That can be done, as it was done during the war. Wheat handling firms were, allowed to handle the wheat as agents for th;el Board. If tha,t is not provided fo'r the position will be unfair. If what I suggest is done it will not add in any wa,y to the cost. of collecting the wheat.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-We ought to have a, statement from the Minis­ter to clear the air. vVha,t is disturbing the members of the Opposition is a state':· meillt he· made in his speech ,on thel motion for the second relading of the Bill when dealing with clause 6. He said that--

Clause 6 specifically enumerates that the Board may buy and sell wheat, and do every­thing incidental thereto. The Board may avail itself of the use of Public Offices with the

720 Wheat (ASSEMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

approval of the Minister of the Department concerned, .and the rights of such officers are protected. It is intended that the services of the co-operative companies as handling contractors. will be utilized as hitherto. 'rhis will apply to the Victorian Producers' Co-operative Company and the Gippsland and Northern Co-operative Company, which are organizations of farmers. We think that they should be allowed to handle their members' wheat.

I do not think that it is intended to ta.ke up the position that nlen who ha.ve bee'll engaged in this occupation are to, be abso­lute,ly cut oft from their business. That could only bel brought about by the action of the BoaJ:"d. If the, Ministe.r takes the view tha,t only cQ<-Gpe,ra.tiv€l societies are going to handl·e the wheat under this Pool, a gross injustice will bel done: to. a numbe·r of peoplel. If the' Board will, in addition to utilizing the services of cQ<-opera,tive societies, emplQ<y Qithe,r agencies which have booill doing this wQirk, the,re will be no detrimeillt to the faJ:"mer a,nd no. detri­ment to the Pool. Suppose, for the sake of argument, tha.t there a.re a thousand persons engaged in this pa,rticular work at the, p~€lsent ~ime, does the Minister sa,y that the1lr serVIces are not to' be utilized ~n. th~ fut~re. If that is thel case, gross InjUstIce WIll be done to a number OIf citi­zens. The Minister will ha.ve considerable powers in the administrat.iGn of this Board. I presume that he will be almQ<st continuously in consultation wjth it. If he will give us an assurance that the Board is gQ<ing to utilize the services Qif these people, that will sa fisfy me. I would never allGw a Bill to go through this HGuse the ·e,fTed of which would be to greatly benefit certain persons' and do great injury to others in the making of their livelihood. It is not possible fQir us to think of passing an Act which will have the effed of delstroying the occupa­tion which people have been engaged in for a n-q,mber of years, and I want an assurance that this injustice is not going to be ca.rried out. Otherwise we will have to debate this matter pretty fully in order' to infQirm the community hQiw unjust this proposal will be if carried into effect.

Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Agriculture). -In reply to t.he points raised by the honQirable member fQir Hampden, the honorable member for St. Kilda, and the Leader of the OppositiQin, I should like to point out that the Bill does not st.ate that nQine of these people, living in coun­try districts and Qirdinarily doing certain work in the handling of whe·a.t, shall be emplQ<yed undelr the Board constituted

bv tlls Bill. The clause dealing with this particular matter is clause 6, which the Leader Qif the Opposition referred to, and which I will nQiW quote fQ<r his infQir­mation. It deals with the powe'rs of the Board, and I may remind hQinorable mem­bers that the matter 'we are now consider­ing will be dealt with by the Board and not by the Government or by the Min­ister.

1\1r. OMAN.-Parliameut can deal with it, and make it cIear at this stage.

Mr .. HOGAN.-It is pedectly clear now in the clause in the Bill, which reads as fQillows:-

(1) For the purposes of the satisfactory mar­keting of the Victorian wheat harvest of the season 1924-1925 and for the purposes of this Act, the Board may buy or sell, or arrange for the purchase or sale of wheat, and do all acts, matters, and things necessary or expedient in that behalf accordingly; and in particular but without limiting the generality of the foregoing powers-

(a) may appoint, employ, or authorize such agents, officers, servants, and other persons as are necessary, and by agreement with the Minister of the Department concerned make use, of the services of any of the officers or employees of the Publi.:l Service.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-It was yQiur statement in explaining the Bill which has raised the diffioulty.

:M:r. HOGAN.-The statement I made is quite in conformity with the clause in the' Bill.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-N'O; yQ<u ma,de quite another impression.

l\ir. HOGAN.-The honQirable member follQiws. the clause as far as I have gone ~

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I do. Mr. HOGAN.-What I have read gives

the Board power, by agreement with the Minister, to make use of the services of any of the officers or employees of the Public Service. The men engaged by the BQiard will do all the necessary work, and the Board will have power to appoint and emplGY whomever they think necessary. I did express the opiniQ<n, and I do so again, that in employing agents the Board will nGt ovedook co-operative com­panies, as was the case SOIDe years ago under the then compulsory Pool. . As these co-operative companies consist mainly of farmers who grow wheat, it is desirable that they shall do some of this work; in fact, a great deal of the wQ<rk. There is no justification whatever for the honorable member for Hampden assum­ing tha.t nQine of these p-eople whd have been working in country centres in the

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 19241 Marketing Bill. 721

handling and stacking of wheat will any longer be employed in that wa.y. So far as the necessary work is concerned, I prel

-

sume that just as much wheat will require to be stacked and loaded as ever there was. The Board will require men to do that work, and it will engage whomever it thinks best able to do what is required. That is provided in clause 6.

Mr. BROWNBILL.-It is entirely a mat­ter for the Board.

Mr. HOGAN.-Yes. I trust that ex­planation has satisfied members opposite.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-The matter will be left entirely to the BOiard ~

Mr. HOGAN.-Clause 6 provides t,hat. Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-Your state­

ment left that in .doubt. Mr. OMAN.-I quite realize that the

Minister said tha,t the Board has pOlwe,r to make wha.t appointments it pleases, and that it can employ men who have been engaged' in the past in gathering in wheat. I may point out that when I was administe,ring the Wheat Pool there was a disposition on the part u,f some people to suggest tnat the Board ehould collect the wheat itself with ordinary labourers and Iwt employ' agents, paying them 1d. a bushel, ,01' whatever might be agreed upon, for the work they did.

Mr. HOGAN.-What do you mean by "to collect it" ~

Mr. OMAN.-To collect it with work­men, and not by agents. We have handled the wheat for a long period, and I fought for a footing to be given to the co-operative companies.

Mr. HOGAN.-The Board will not need to employ anybody to go round to farmers to induce them to sell their whe!;l.t.

Mr. OMAN.-That is one reason why I oppose the Bill. In my paddock I have seen three different buyers during one forenoon, and I have sold wheat· at an advance of 3d. per bushel to one agent over the price another agent had offered. One agent may offer 3s. 6d., and another will say, "I will give you 3s. 6!d. or 3s 7d." I have never found unanimity among them as to price. It was stated by

. the honorable member for Dalhousie that I had sold the whole of my wheat through J ames Bell and Company, and had put none into the co-operative companies' hands, the inference being that I was so averse to co-operative handling that I would go out of my way to injure a co­operative company. That statement is

not correct. .Tames Bell and Company have not purchased any wheat from me since the compulsory Pool ended. I challenge the .... honorable member fo'r Dal­housie to produce a prOtof of his state­ment. I further state that the only crop that has been sOold' Oon the propetl'ties I control was SOlId to the Victorian Pro­ducers' Co-operative Company, and was sent to New Zealand. Therefore, I give the lie ,direct to. state­ments made to. the cQontrary in my a bsenoe. I know that the Board can employ the agents w40 have been already employed. But, as I have pointe,d out, the'y have been keen competitof03 with the co-ope,rative companies, and there is just a little friction between the two bodies. I am not satisfied with the ex­pl.anation given by the Minister, but I WIll take another oPPQortunity, probably a.fter the third reading, if I do not get tIme before then, to endeavour to insert an amendment to make it mandatory 011

the Board to give employ"ment to· men who have been earning their living ill this way.

Mr. HOGAN.-SO that thev can have three agents go,ing out to your farm. Why, one 0.£ the great benefits of this Bill is that we are stopping all wasteful energy.

Mr. OJY.IAN.-While I was handling whefi,t the local agent got his lid. a' bag, or some such amount. That was his share.

Mr. HOGAN.-All that will be required unde,r this Bill will be a man at the rail­way station to take de1iv,e,ry of the wheat, and see that it is weighed and checked.

Mr. OMAN.-MO're than that will be required. I have seen 100 waggons pull up at a statiQon in one day.

Mr. HOGAN.-No man will be employed to run about from farm to farm. '

Mr. OMAN.-The Minister is trailing a red herring. He knows very well that I do not mean that. If] d. a bag is to be paid for whe,at at country stations, I see no reason why the men who have' been collecting it in the past should not have a share. However, I rose to point out that this Bill goes further than to de1al with next season's crop. It deals with the wheat that is Oon hand at the present time. It gives an inte,rpretation of blended wheat. Blended whelat means wheat of last season and wheat of the next season. Under this Bill I shall not be permitted to sell any f.a.q. wheat even to my nearest neighbour for fowl feed.

JYlr. HOGAN.-Yes, you will.

722 Wheat [ASSEMBLY. i Marketing Bill.

Mr. OMAN.-What, without penalties and payments into the PaOlI ~

Mr. ROGAN. - Yes, you can seH wheat for fowl feed. You can do mOore. You can sell seed wheat to your neighbour. .

Mr. QMAN.-CQould I sell f.a.q. wheat for fowl feed ~

Mr. HOGAN.-F.a.q. wheaP Mr. OMAN.-Yels. Assuming that my

neighbour wants to buy it for fQiwl feed, can I sell it fQor that purpose?

Mr. HOGAN.-I should say yes, provid­ing that you are not playing some little game with the POQiI

Mr. SLATER.-Let him take counsel's opinion.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOcK.-That would cost mOore than the fowl feed.

Mr. OMAN.-Well, the Crown SQolici­tor is sitting all the front bench.

Mr. HOGAN.-If your neighbour wanted wheat for fowl feed, you could sell him f.a.q. wheat. But if you. wanted to sell him wheat for quite another purpose, and said it was for fowl feed, you wQould be breaking the law.

Mr. OMAN.-I take it that that can be dOone then, or that if it cannQit be done under this Bill the Minister will accept an amendment.

Mr. HOGAN.-Whatever can be done under the Bill will be dOone. The honor­able member is at present disoussing an­other clause, and we will deal with the matter when we reach it..

Mr. OMAN.-There is a prQiPosal to seize wheat that is held at present, as well as to seize the next orOop.

Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Agriculture). -I move--

That the following definition of wheat be in­serted in the clause:-

" , Wheat' means wheat harvested dur­ing the season. 1924-1925, and include,> wheat harvested in New South Wales and South Australia in areas (to be defined by the Board with the approval of the Go­vernor in Council) from which by reason of transport facilities it has been customary to deliver wheat for marketing in or from Victoria; and 'Victorian wheat harvest' has a cOl'l'esponding interpretation."

As honQorable members will seel) this pro­vision deals with wheat grown outside Victoria, and that in the Qlrdina.ry course of events travels Qlyer our railways and is marketed in this Stat.e. FQor instance, the line running from Ouyen to Murray­ville and Pinnaroo taps wheat cQountry on the South Australian side. Likewise, much of the wheat grown in the Riverina comes to Victoria. Wheat is grown on

each side oJ M9'ama, and up to Bal­ranald and Deniliquin, and a good deal of it comes to this State. When the border railways are cO'nstructed, and the Moama-Deniliquin railway has been taken over by the Government, a grelat deal Qof wheat will. come to! Victoria. This pro­vision makes it possible for that wheat to' come intO' our Pool. Of cO'urse, we could not make it compulsO'ry that that should be done.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACO'CK.-It is a new way of annexing the Riverina. Is that it ~

lVIr. HOGAN.-It ,allows wheat frQom the Riverina to' be ma.rketed in Victoria. No cO'll6titutional question is invQolved. Weare dealing here with a matter that 18

purely voluntary. Mr. OMAN.-Why not accept the vQolun­

tary principle right through the Bi1l1 Mr. HOGAN.-Because we have just

carried a martian by 37 votes to 20 in: favour of a cQompulsory Pool.

Mr. "\VETTENHALL.-I see no ob­jection to the amendment, in view of the fact that the, party Qlf which I am a mem­ber intend to' p~opose an amendment that will extend the operations O'f the Act to the seasQons 1924-25, 1925-26, and 1926-27. If the amendment in clause '3 is accepted, the matter will be left in an anomalous position.

Mr. HOGAN.-If we alter the other part of the Bill we will make a conse.­quential amendment.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I am not satisfied that the constitutional questiom is being dealt with prQopedy in the Bill as it originally st-ood and in the amendment.

1\11-. HOGAN.-This amendment has been drawn up on the best legal authority.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The best legal authority may nQit always be right; ex­perts differ. I think ·the Board should have power to' accept wheat from the par­ticular areas that have been referred to. This clause extends the definitiom of wheat, and it means that wheat from these areas will be brought into the Pool if it i·s sent over voluntarily. When it comes here it· is subject tOo the Bill and tOo many compulsory prQovisions of t,he pooling arrangement. There are a number of com­pulsory prQvisions relating to' the pooling of wheat that comes in from other States, and I do not think that in that respect the Bill is const.itutional. The Qlriginal Bill was nOot to apply to whe1at, which was the subject of an Inter-State contract.

Wheal, [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 723

That provision has been taken out, and, in my opinion, it is not constitutional to take it out.

lY.[T. HOGAN.-We are to have an amendment on clause 3.

Mr. EGGLESTON .-Clause 3 throws a grave doubt on the Minister's stat.ement that he has high constitutional authority for this amendment.

·Mr. HOGAN.-The amendment we pro­pose to make in clause 3 is in accordance with the Federal Constitution.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The honorable geutleman is putting in a number of pro­vi.sions which ma y or ma y not conflict with the Federal Constitution, and then he proposes to insert a saving clause to say that nothing shall be validated by the Act which is unconstitutional. Nobody will knQiw what his rights are under the Bill unless he goe,s to a lawyer, and 1 am sure it is not our desire that every wheat-grower should be in the position of having to do that. Of course it will mean a harvest for the lawyers.

Mr. SLATER.-Without this provision it probably would.

Mr. "EGGLESTON.-It is .vicious in principle to bring down legislation and shirk the, constitutional position all the way through.

Mr. BAILEY.-If wheat is sent herE from other States, why should it not be subject tQi the Pool ~

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I say' that that is unconstitutional. When wheat is im­ported under an Inter-State contract it retains the character of imported wheat, and t.hb compulsory provisions of the wheat PQiol cannot be applied to it.

Mlr. SLATER.-That is to be specially provided for.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-The sub-clause it is proposed tv ada to clause 3 reads­" N owithstanding any provision Qf this Act which maybe construed to the, con­trary.·' That is to say it is not to bear the usual acceptation if it conflicts with the coustitutional ruling. What is the constitutional ruling ~ The position is an unfair one in which to place a man .. Why not go through the Bill carefully and say what is and what is not constitutional, and insert a definite clause accepting anything which is not unconstitu­tional. The question of the im­portation of wheat under Inter-State con­tract is crucial. Supposing that all the wheat in the POQiI has been sold and the flour millers want to buy wheat from other

States ()Il" other parts of the world. That is a possibility, though it may not be a probability. They have to ge,t the wheat, I will say, from the othe,r States. Im­mediately it comes in they will be affected by the compulsQiry provisions of this Bill and will have tQi deal with the Pool Board alone. That is constitutional, and the Bill should show that very clearly. There are ceTtain clauses. which say that the Pool shaH not apply to wheat which is the subject of an luter-State contract, That is a matter that should be made m.ore clear.

Mr. BAILEY.-There is a proviso which applies only to wheat, which usually come·s here, taking advantage of our means of transport.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-This Bill cannot prevent the importatiOl~ of wheat. into Victoria from the other States and not. only from these particular areas. It can only be brought in by people who are not on the, Board. The Board has not power to buy wheat from any other person. I intend to deal with the question of the powers of the Board at a later stage, as I think the provision in the Bill is delfec­tive. The peQiple of Victoria can buy wheat from a person in another State, and no provision that Parliament can pass can O'bviate that, because the Federal Constitution provides for fre~­dom of financial rela.tions between mem­bers of the different, Stat.es. The Bill by extending the definiti6n of whe,at and by other provisions forces all wheat, even if imported, under its compulsO'ry provisions.

Mr. HOGAN.-No, it does not do that. ' Mr. EGGLE·STON.-In my opinion it

does, because you are proposing to omit all the little provisos that appeared in the original Bill and to insert this .drag­net clause. That is a vicious me,thod of doing the thing. Legislation should always be made clear enough for lay-men toO understand it. T' defy anyone who is not a constitutional lawyer to unde,rstand this Bill. I dO' not think the Minister has thought out the pos~tion in regard to im­ported wheat. Wliat is the position of wheat imported from another State ~ Can any person deal with it as if it were entirely free from the, Pool ~ If so, that is not stated in the Bill. The freedom to import is gone, and I think the Bill is unconstitutional. One can only detelfmine whether it is unconstitutional or not bv construing the whole of the Federal Constitution. I think this is a

724 Wheat [ASSEMBL Y.] . Marketing Bill.

VICI0U!:! form of legislation, and I do not think the way the Minister proposes is the best way of de1aling with the position.

Mr. HOGAN.-We have to put this defi­nition in to make it possible for the Riverina wheat, which ordinarily comes to Victoria, to comei here at all. The same thing applies to the wheat that comes from South Australia. But it is only voluntary in those cases, not compul-sory at aU. .

Mr. EGGLEST'ON.-The only way in which the constitutional provision provid­inK for freedom, of trade between the States was avoided was by the Crown taking all the product. That is not done by the Bill, and it is not intended to be done by the Bill. I think the thing may break down entirely on constitutional grounds. The Government proposes a drag-net provision--

Mr. SLATER.-Which we say will pro­tect the position.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-It will protect the Government, and enable the Board to get its lawyers to work a,fterwards, and drag in a lot o-f people who did not think they were going to be dragged in, or, at any rate, subject them' to very expensive litigation. The la,w officers of the Go­vernment are shirking the position alto­getp.er. They should go through the Bill--

Mr. BAILEY.-How do you know they ha,ve not done so ~ ,

Mr. EGGLESTON.-In several pro­visions it was said, "This section shall not apply to an Inter-State contract." In some there was no provision as to that. That is the sort of thing I think should be done in this' Bill, but instead of doing that the Government intend to take' out those .exemptions and propose a general provision to the effect that nothing that is in the Bill shall be deemed to interfere with the freedom of Inter­State trade.

1\11'. HOGAN.-That is not what we are dealing with a.t present. That is an amendment to clause 3.

Mr. EGGLEST'ON.-It is very doubt­ful to my mind, even if a grower in another State sends his wheat to the Pool, whether the freedom of that wheat to be dealt with by him can be im'peded by legislation of the State of Victoria. The virtue of a clause as to Inter~State con­tracts was that when wheat was once the subject of an Interr-State con-

tract it did not lose its Inter-State character, but according to the Gorvern­ment's proposal, as soon as wheat from another Sta.te comes into the Pool it will lese its character of imported wheat. I think the position the Go,vernment are developing is a very dangerous one from a constitutional point of view.

Mr. OMAN.-The proposal before the Chair is to deal with wheat grown in New South Wales and South Australia. In view of the fact that each of those Sta.tes has determined upon a voluntary Pool", I do not think that the Parliament of this State should interfere with the wheat grown in them. The people who own the whea,t grown in those States should be given the utmost freedom in marketing.

Mr. HOGAN.-They will be able to market it in any way the1y like. My amendment only cmakes it possible for them to send it to the Victorian Pool. They could not put their wheat into the Pool without the amendment.

Mr. OMAN.-I think the wheat in those two States should be dealt with in the way ~he Goverrnments of those States have determined.

Mr. HOGAN .-So far as the Riverina and South Australian growers are con· cerned, our Pool will be a voluntary PooL

Mr. OMAN.-Possibly the lVIiniste,r is horping that he will get some wherat into the compulsory Pool from the sister States of New South Wales and South Austra.lia.

Mr. HOGAN.-I knOow that we shall. Mr. BAILE,Y.-If the grolWers in those

States want to take advantage of the great bell.efit of the compulsory Pool they can send their w hea t in to the V ictOorian Pool.

Mr. OMAN.-I do nOot see any ad­vantage in the compulsOory Pool.

Mr. H,OGAN . ....:...YOoU are against compul­,sorry pooling for Victoria and against voluntary pooling fo[' New South Wales and South Australia.

Mr. 01\1IAN.-I am not in fa,vour of a proposal that gives differential treatment to the people 'Oof three States. The Minis­ter proposes tOo make the Pool compulsory in Victorria and voluntary in the two other States.

MT. HOGAN.-We could not make it, compulso,ry in those States.

Mr. OMAN.-The Governments of those States have determined upon volun­tary pooling and the open market. If the growers in those States do not put

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 725

their wheat into a voluntary Pool they can make use of the open lllark~t, and I do not think that we, as a State, JlPed make any provision to compel either New South V.,T ales or South Australian ~TOWl:rS to send their wheat into the Vi~torian Pool. The wheat from portions oJ New South "Vales and South Australia will come to Victoria in spite of !inything Lhe Government may do. It will be sold in Victoria by the growers, and it will be interesting to compare the results of the sale of that wheat by private enterprise with the results of the sale of the wheat in the compulsory Pool.

Mr. BAILEY.-This amendment dop.s not compel the growers from other States to come into the Pool at all.

Mr. OMA.N.-I am going to vote against the amendment. I do not think we should handle the wheat grown in the two States concerned. That is a matter for the Governments of those two States.

Mr. SLATER (Attorney-General).-· The necessity for this amendment is very apparent for the reasons that have been well expressed by the Minister. He has pointed out that without the amendment it would be quite impossible for wheat grown in parts of the neighbouring Stat.es of South Australia and New South Wales that are tributary to Victoria to come within . the ambit of the Victorian Pool. Let me say without any hesitation that there is not imposed on the growers. of that wheat, nor can there be imposed on them, any element of compulsion to bring their wheat into the Pool. The honorable member for St. Kilda knows perhaps better than I do that any such expression in any Bill of ours would be clear ly 'ultra vires. An amendment to be moved at a later stage in express terms makes it apparent that there will be no impairment of the freedom ·of Inter-State trade.

Sir ALEXANDER PEAcocK.-But is there any necessity for the amendment now before the Chair 1

Mr. SLATER.-There is the necessity that without this express de:finition of the term tc wheat" it would be incom­petent for the Pool to handle the wheat that will come from those parts of South Australia and New South Wales that are tributary to Victoria. As I said before, there is no element of compulsion, and there can be no element of compul­sion introduced to compel the growers

[371

of that wheat to bring it into the Pool. They can enter into any contract they desire, and their contractual rights are protected not only by the Bill, but by section 92 of the Oommonwealth Oon­stitution.

Mr. OMAN.-Could you not under this Bill stop wheat coming from the Riverina to Melbourne agents for shipment ~

Mr. SLA'fElt.-The Bill will not stop that at all. Growers of wheat in other States can make any contracts they like with agents or other persons in Victoria. Whatever rights they have are protected by . section 92 of the Oommonwealth Oon­stitution.

Sir ALEXANDE-R PEACOCK.-Y au mean that it is purely voluntary fo·r a' grower in another State to· send wheat into Vic­toria, but that after it comes here it will be subject to the Board?

Mr. SLATER.-Not necessarily. The amendment was agreed to'. Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Agricul­

ture).-I move-That these words be omitted-

" i\-Vheat-grower" includes any ~rson or body of persons corporate or U),incor­porate who or which has any property in or is entitlcd to wheat immediately upon such wheat Ibeing 'harv~sted, but does not include any person or body of persons corporate or unincorporate who or which customarily acquires wheat for purposes of the re-sale thereof or of the sale of the products thereof unless such wheat was bona fide grown by such per­son or body of persons.

and that the following words be inserted;-H Wheat-grower" means any person or

body of persons corporate or unincorporate who or which is a bona fide grower of wheat ..

Mr. EGGLESTON.-Oan the Minis­ter say why the original int~rpretation is unnecessary? It has been included in these measures for some time.

Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Agricul­ture).-This amendment is proposed on the advice of our law advisers. They say that the new de:finition will be better than that submitted in the Bill. Their advice is that it will not only be clearer, but it will provide for smoother running in the working of the measure.

Mr. EGGLESTON. - It certainly seems simpler, but the original de:finition is wide enough to include a case in which a man bought wheat while it was on the land.

726 Wheat [ASSE}IBLY. ] Marketing Bill.

Mr. HOGAN.-This definition is really only required for the election of the mem­bers of the Board.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, ,as amended, was adopted.

Clause 3-Save as otherwtise expressly ,provided, this

Act shall apply to wheat harvested during the season 1924·1925, and 'not otherwise.

Mr. WETTENH1ALL.-In the absence of the Leader of the Oountry party, who is attending a meeting of the Elections and Qualifications Committee, I have been asked to submit the amendment of which he has given notice. I move-

That the words "and not otherwise" ue omitted, and that the words "and shall also apply to' wheat harvested during the seasons 1925-26 and 1926-27, unless otherwise de­cided by a poll of wheat-growers having wheat in the 1924-25 Pool" be inserted.

One of the main necessities in connexion with the successful marketing of wheat is to have some ,stability. The Victorian Wheat-growers Corporation this year will be greatly handicapped in the event of nothing coming of this Bill. If this measure applies to one season only, the same disability as exists will operate next yea,r with regard to collective market­ing. Therefore, "\ve say that this system should be adopted for more than one year. The object of the amendment must be quite clear. It will do avmy with all the llncertainty as to whether the measure is required after this year or not. After our experience of compulsory marketing this year, I have every confidence that there will be a substantial majority of those who have put their wheat into thp Pool in favour of its continuance. This would be an opportune stage to answer some of the questions which have been asked during the debate. The honorable member for Gippsland North said-

The other point to be determined is whether commercial morality, so far as the purchasing of wheat is concerned, has sunk so low tha't the wheat-growers cannot get an . honest deal from the buyers, and they are forced, in consequence of that, to ask the Government to protect them from poverty.

That honorable member wished to be en­lightened on that point. Now the ques­tion of commercial morality has not been raised by allY honorable member in sup­port of this Bill. At the same time, if anybody can define where excessive profit making ceases and commercial morality

starts, I may be able to answer the hon­orable member for Gippsland North. In connexion with the marketing of wheat, what we all do feel, whether it is com­mercial morality or not, is that in the past excessive profits have been taken before there was any opportunity of marketing wheat collectively.

'Mr. TOUTCHER.-Have there been any losses?

]\i{r. WETTENHALL.-Well, .we do not hear of them, and the wonderful suc­cess of every man '\Yho entered the busi­ness is decidedly against any suggestion of that. kind. .

:Mr. EGGLESTON.-YOU do not hear of the losses, and you imagine the profits.

~Ir. WETTENHALL.-We do no such thing. We know where our losses come in. Supporter,s of the Bill were asked to substantiate their statements, and show where, the gains would come in. I main­tain that this business is worth continuing, because it has effected enormous savings. An attempt has been made to belittle those savings, and the matter of 2d. a bushel has been referred to as a mere trifle. I would point out that 2d. a bushel on 40,000,000 bushels represents an enormous sum-in fact, nearly £400,000. I think it was the honorable member for St. Kilda who referred to the saving de­monstrated by members in this (the Oppo­si tion) corner, as being only 2d.

Mr. EGGLESTON.-I did not say that. Mr. WETTENH,A.,LL.-I took it so.

I distinctly showed that, in the charges for handling, the mechanical shifting of the wheat from one place to another) there had been a saving of 2d. a bushel, and also a saving of 2d. in overhead charges, commissions, chartering, and so forth, making a total saving of 4d. a bushel, amounting to nearly £800,000. That means an enormous saving, which every grower in this State can appreciate.

Mr. EGGu~sToN.-'Vhere do you prove that?

}Ir. WETTENHALL. - The wheat­growers' co-operation shows it. It has been shown ad nauseam in this House, and there are none so blind as those who wilJ not see.

Mr. EGGLESTON. - It shows they are now charging 4!d.

:Mr. WETTENHALL.-Tangible evi­dence of this is being sought. I cannot giye any better evidence in support of this

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.J llia1'keling Bill 727

measure than a letter I received to-day from an old friend whose actual experi­ence and definite knowl~dge coincide with my own; and I propose to give it to the House. There could have been no collu­sion, because, as my friend says, it is six or seven years s,ince he saw me or heard from me last. He says-

If you are satisfied that a compulsory wheat Pool is in the 'best interests of the growers, why don't you acquaint those who are opposed to it with all the facts? I have been interested in two days' debate on the subject, but if the proceedings have been fully reported in the Argus, it seems to me that several very important matters have not been placed before Parliament at all.· A lot has been said about the present satisfactory market­ing conditions; quite so, but what has been said as to the reason?

These are not my words, but t.hey coin­cide with and confirm what I said previously.

Undoubtedly the satisfactory conditions have been brought about by the existence· of the voluntary Pool. Were not the conditions satisfactory before the war? They were-to the buyers. What could be more satisfactory to foul' or five private buyers than the know­ledge that by coming to mutual agreement they could buy amongst themselves the Vic­torian wheat crop at their own price? There was practically no competition before the war; at any rate not during the flush of the season.

This letter practically confirms the opinion of every wheat-grower. Oompeti­tion was pl'actically eliminated at the flush of the season until those unfortu­nate men were compelled to dispose of their wheat. Then when the man who could hold his wheat sold it, he got the cream. I can demonstrate this, and .r want to drive it home in this lIouse. The question o~ Pool or no Pool is not the reason why those who grow the wheat support the Bill. We w;ho grow wheat have had it burned into our souls. Years ago, if a man delivered wheat at a rail­way station and he had nowhere to stack it, it had to be put into the buyer's stacks. That meant that we had to build stores of our own. The actual experience was­and the honorable member for St. Kilda may question it if he likes-that the man who took his wheat to a railway station and had the opportunity to get space in a grain shed, invariably got a higher price for it than the man who had no such con­venience. The man who was forced to sell got well and truly caned. vVe were forced to build grain sheds and to endeavour,

as far as possible, to meet this organized buying. When you have organized buy­ing a.nd competit.ive selling on the part of thosuands there can be only one result­a drop in the market. That was our ex­perience before the war, and it is sup­ported by actual figures quoted in my friend's leltt-e'r. The letter says-

There was pra"ctically no competition before the war.

Mr. McI..JAcHLAN. - What does that prove~

}'fr. WETTENHALL.-I have given the honorable member for Gippsland North proof that 'there was no competi­tion. I told the honorable member that I had space in a grain shed, and I got a higher price in consequence. Is that not evidence of organized buying?

Mr. McLAcHLAN.-But you have not proved that the farmers in the Wimmera are· in needy circumstances.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-That was not the point I was dealing with. I have said that there was practically no competition before the war, at any Tate during the flush of the season. That is the important part, because it unfortunately affects a large number. I am not dealing with the rich farmers of the Wimmera, but with the battlers in the Mallee, the men who are now in the position in which the wheat farmers of the Wimmera were twenty years ago-struggling for existence. Those are the men who have to sell. He further states-

In 1913 I offered 5,000 bags of wheat jn one line to four buyers.

}.fr. EGG1~ESToN.-He was not very poor.

}'fr. WETTENIIALL.-He was very hard pressed. T am here to show that there was organized buying. It is defi­nitely stated in this letter, and it is true, because we know it has happened in thou­sands of instances. This man had 5,000 bags in one line to offer to four buyers at his railway station, and not one of them would spring a farthing. He had ]]0 shed to put it into, and they sat tight, and he had to take 3s. 3d. a bushel. The London price of wheat quoted in the A1'gUS of that time ""vas 42s. to 43s. per quarter, up­'yards of 5s. 3d. a bushel. They took the difference between 3s. 3d. and 5s. 3d. When the yoiuntary Pool was operating:; the wheat. market was at the same figure.

728 Wheat [ASSEMBLY. J AI ar lceting Bui.

Let us examine the difference in the light of that knowledge which, it has been said. was not good for us. In 1923, when the voluntary Pool was operating, the London market was at 5s. 3d., but the buyers were offering 4s. 2d.-3s. 3d. before, 4s. 2d. in competitive circumstances.

Mr. CArN.-And freights twice as high. Mr. WETTENHALL.-Freights were

higher and general costs higher. The letter goes on-

'l'his was, of course, above parity, but they were at that time making a determined effort to smash the Pool, and this above-parity price was an cndeayonr to lure buyers away from the Pool.

I contend that practically all that appears in this letter was dealt with by myself or by other members of our pa:r;ty. That was refused to the country people by the press. I am not responsible for that. However, he goes on-

A further matter which has not been stressed in Parliament is the question of increase in weight gained by wheat placed in the Pool.

That was expressed forcibly in this House, and the advantages were set out by more than one ,speaker.

A gain in wheat of 5 lh. a baO" over the VIctorian wheat crop is something °prodiO'iollS, which you will realize if you work it out. It means a gain of 1,000 bushels to every 12,000 bags of wheat. A thousand ,bushels at 5s. very soon mount up. Yet another matter whieh has not been mentionea in Parliament is the extra price which Australian wheat com­mands in the Old Country and world's market.

Australian wheat is always worth about 2s. per quarter more than w hea t grown in any other part of the world.

In times gone by, the cable quotations re-presented the average price of wheat on the

.London market, not the Australian price. This makes it well worth while continuing this Pool for three years.

Now, do not say that I have not given you, 01' some of your colleagues, something to talk about on Tuesday. I am not in favour of it Government-controlled Pool. Particularly am r opposed to one controlled by the present Government; but I maintain that the grower of wheat is entitled to all he can get from the sale of his produce, and I reckon one sellinO' and -chartering agency is desirable. If th~ growers would support their own corporation up to the hilt, all would be well; but there are so many -- fools in the world who cannot see it, ,besides a fair percentage who are ever ready to take advantage of what others are doing for them, without giving any help themselves. Those who support the Pool are undoubtedly carrying those who don't on their backs, and hUman nature will Hot stand that for ever,

notwithstanding that they are making a market for themselves at the same time.

The ACTING CHAIRM.A.N elYlr. COTTER).-I have allowed the honorable member a good deal of latitude, as I understand he was reading a letter; but he is not going to make a second-readihg speech now~ The question before the Committ.ee is whether the Pool will be continued for a certain time beyond what is set out in clause 3.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-I am dealing with the advisability of continuing the Pool for three years. .

The ACTING CHAIRMAN. - The honorable member is introducing matter not relevant to this particular question. If he continues in that way, I shall have to caU upon him too stop.

lVIr. WETTENHALL.-I desire to em­phasize the advisability of continuing the Pool for three years. I apologize if I have diverged from that point. I should like to quote from the opinion of one of those 'wealthy Wimmera farmers who have been referred to, and who is now travelling in America. This is ,,,hat he says, as the result of his investigations in America and Oanada:-

"Pools are the salvation of Australian farmers," writes Mr. Lutze, of Coromby, in a letter to Mr. H. Lutze, of Jung, relating his impressions on a visit to America.

"Canada," he says, "has impressed me very much, and only by travelling through it does one realize its greatness. Last year the wheat yield was 496,000,000 bushels; it was a record for Canada. This year, the .prospects are not so good, and the latest estimate of the harvest is 250,000,000 bushels. In some districts we travelled through it was very dry. Farming is carried on much different here than in Aus­tralia. It i~ all cut with binder and then threshed. We were able to get· right out on the farms. The farmers in the States have had bad times the last two years owing to low prices." I am showing why this Pool should be continued.

"Financial depression everywhere, and land values down nearly 50 per cent. Farmers do not know what their land is really worth. No on", will buy as things are so uncertain, and more than half the farmers are in difficulties owing to low prices for their produce and high prices for what they buy. From all I have seen and heard here in the States and Canada, the pooling of wheat has been the salvation of the Australian farmer, and, personally, I am Istronger than ever in favour of it, and I say it will be one of the greatest calamities that ever befell the Australian farmers if they have ever to sell wholly in the open market again. Only while here in the States the speculators,

Wheal [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 729

who are millionaires, and many others, have made millions trading in wheat and inflating prices when it is out of the farmers' hands."

That is part of a letter from a man with practical experience, and I have quoted it as showing the necessity for the con­tinuation of the pooling system. The honorable member for Boroondara quoted extensively from .a circular which came from the Melbourne Chamber of Com­merce j but I have a little portion which he omitted to ·read. It is as follows:-

The merchant buys wheat as cheaply as he can, and sells it as profitably as he can. He is the connecting link between the ,producer and the .consumer, ~tudying the resources of the one and the wants of the other.

To complete this sentence, the words" and the necessities of both" should be added. There is no question that he does take the fullest advantage of the necessities of those men who are not in the position and have not the facilities for withholding their wheat from the market; and that is another reason for the continuance of this pooling system. You have been very good, Mr. Ootter, in allowing me such latitude; but I hoped to' be able to convince the honorable member for Gipps­land North. I have shown that there is a necessity for organized marketing, and that this Pool is needed in the interests of the poor farmers-those irnen who, in ordinary circumstances, have not the facilities for holding their wheat fOT any length of time.

Mr. McLACHI,AN.-YOU say that there are men in the Wimmer a and in the Mallee who are in needy circumstances and require assistance.

!1r. WETTENHALL. - There are such men in the MalIee. "'The honorable member for Swan Hill is absent through illness. He can speak from his personal knowledge of this matter better than I ·can. We regret his illness, and the cause we are advocating is so much the worse off because of his absence. People refer frequently to the wealthy farmer·s of the Wimmera. During the recent show at Horsham, I met a man who knew the conditions of farming in that part of the State 40 years ago. He said the Wim­mera was no good to him 'at that time. M'any good men were then broken on the wheel of fortune there. I admit that those farmers who were fortunate enough to carryon until better times came have made money. But who begrudges it to

them? Some of the older farmers will tell you how they have carted wheat a distance of 40 miles, using a two-horse waggon loaded with 20 bags of wheat. The farmers have worked hard, and put brains, energy, and enthusiasm into their business, and they are entitled to what­ever profit they have been able to make. The honorable member for Oastlemaine referred to telegrams that hav-a been di~­patched from different parts of the State with reference to this Bill. I have a whole bundle of telegrams here, every one of which is in support of the Bjll. They indicate that 90 per cent. of the wheat-grower,g want a compulsory Pool.

Mr. OMAN.-Are those all the telegrams you are getting?

l\{r. WETT.E.NHALL.-No; they are coming in. There are lots more to come.

Mr. GREENWOOD.-How do you know they are com·ing?

Mr. WE-TTENHALL.-Because the flow of them stop3 only with the closing of the telegraph office. Whenever we have an important measure before the House, honorable members are flooded with telegrams for and against the pro­posal. As a rule, if one starts taking notice of them he soon finds himself in " Queer-street." We must not allow the lllTOneOUS criticism of others to make us suspicious of our own judgment. I have weighed this matter carefully, and I am acting. on actual experience of farming. When practical men who understand wheat-growing are giving their views, it is up to those honorable members, who speak only from -second-hand knowledge and information prepared for them, to sit up and take notice. The Oountry party is supporting the Bill because the members of it have actual knowledge and experience of what takes place. I con­tend that there is every necessity for a continuation of this collective marketing of wheat. It will not be in the interests of the wheat-grower if we have a similar period of uncertainty next year. I, there­fore, hope the Minister will accept the amendment.

Mr. OMAN.-I am opposed to the hon­C)rable member's proposal. It may be in­teresting to honorable members to know that this compulsory Pool that is going to do so much 'to increase the value of wheat will control only 1 per cent. of th~ world's wheat.

730 Wheat [ASSEMBLY. ] Marketing Bill.

Mr. POLLARD.-What are you opposing it for, then?

Mr. OMAN.-I am going to show that the honorable member for Lowan, as recently as the 18th September last, held the same views as I hold to-day.

Mr. WETTENHALL.~That is not correct. Mr. OMAN.-I am going to read from

the Wimmera Star~ of the 18th Septem­ber last, a letter sent to Councillor Ander­son, of Dimboola, by Mr. Wettenhall.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-A letter which wa::! published some weeks after it was de­livered to a private individual in COll­

fidence. N ow make what use you 1ike of it!

Mr. OMAN.-The hOllorable member for Lowan has read letters showing what people thought of pooling, and what they thought of the Labour party. He was quite prepared to breach their confidence. I think it is well within my right tOi read a statement that appeared in a newspaper. The honorable member represents an im­pOl'tant wheat-grQlwing province, where there are few fa,rmers whOi are nOit able tOi ca,ter for their own requirements. They are not needy farmers by any means, and I think it disgraceful that they should be SOl described in rllis Chamber.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-Who did describe them as "needy."

Mr. OMAN.-The honorable member for Lowan said there were needy farmers in his constituency. '.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-I stand by that statement.

Mr. OMAN.-The honorable member created the impression that the great body of farmers are needy, and that they re­quire special treatment. I hold another opinion. However, to get back to the article containing the letter of the hon­orable member that appeared in the W immera 8tar. It is headed-

MR. \VETTENHALL OPPOSES COMPULSORY POOL.

II is A ttit1tde Explained.

Mr. WETTENHALL.-That is not mme. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr.

COTTER).-I ask the honorable member member for Lowan to restrain himself, and to respect the Chair.

Mr. OMAN.-The article states that­In a letter sent to Cr. D. S. Anderson, of

Dimb00lu, Mr. M. K Wettenhall, M.L.A., de-

tails his reasons for opposing a compulsory Wheat Pool. The member writes as fo11ows:-

"In order that you, and wheat-growers gene­rally, may understand my reasons for opposing. the compulsory Pool suggested by the Govern­ment, as I expect to have to do, I am setting out the information which came to hand recently.

First: There can ,be no guarantee of the con­tinuance of a compulsory Pool given for, more· than one year. Its inception would mean the winding up of the present W;heat-growers' Corporation, with all its equipment and organization.

In my opinion, there is no possibility of having the Board controlling the compulsory Pool as wheat-growers desire it, that is, the· Government would insist on strong Govern­ment representation, and a ,consumers' repre­sentative. We would have tosubmi~ to price­fixing for home consumption. It is very doubt­ful if the farmers' representative could secure a satisfactory basis. The Labour party stan­dard-cost of production ,plus a fair l)rofit-­'is, in my opinion; impossible of a satisfactory solution, ,in that it varies with the season 'Which. varies in the same State. The only fair price, import parity, on which all labour is fixed, is not attainable in the 'present Parliament.

vVb.lile these reasons would be sufficient, there are more urgent ones. It would take from Two and .a half to Three million ,pounds to finance an advance of 4s. on a 32,000,000 'bushel crop. The State Government, having agreed to the control of the J.Joan Council (which consists of the Federal Treasurer and T.reasurers from all of the other IStates), as the Federal Trea· surer has definitely stated they will not asso­ciate themselves with Icompulsion unless an States agree, there is grave danger of the State Government not being lin a position to finance thiS' amount.

Three wheat-growing States-,South Austra­lia, New South Wales, and Western Australia -mave agreed to ,a voluntary Pool,and ac­cepted the Federal Government's proposals for' finance, as per the Argus of 3rd l:;eptember, 1924. The Federal Government are now await­ing Victoria',s decision to join to put through the necessary Bill. The Federal Parliament \\~ill only be sitting for a further two or three weeks, therefore the earliest 'possible decision is necessary for Victoria to get advantage of the terms offered.

I am satisfied, in view of all the circum· stances, that the best course is to blow the compulsory idea out as qUlickly as possible, as the terms offered by the FedeTal Government are acceptable to our vV:heat-growers' Corpora­tion, and are the best possible other than a uniform com.pulsory Pool over all the States. This being impossible, delay is dangerous.

I Already favorable charters for next season's shipping have been missed by reason of the Wheat Corporation not knowing where they are.

It is urgent' that the Federal scheme be de­cided, and allowed to operate at the earliest" possible moment for this reason."

I agree with the views expressed in that letter.. It is very interesting to find that such arguments were advanced by the

fVher-tt . [7 OCTOBER, 1924.J J.liarkeling Bill. 731

honQrable member. If I challenge his con­sistency in face of that declaration to Qne of his constituents it is a fair and reason­able thing to do. I cannot understand some Qf the quotatians tha.t ha,ve been given. vVe have been tQld that befOire the compulsary Paol, 3s. 3d. a bushel was o.ffered for 5s. 3d. wheat, and that after the te'rminatian of t.he Paal 4s. 3d. wa,s offered fo.r 5s.3d. wheat. If that is true it daes nat mean that the buyer wauld get any more than the actual freight an the wheat to the markets of the world. A merchant may pay a purely specula­tive value and be prepared to hold the wheat against the market. It is can­tended that a compulsory poal will be useless unless it is extended for at least three years. If you have a Poal on the basis 'of a 40 millian bushels yield of wh~at, that will represent only 1 per cent. of the world's productiO'n, and it is ridi·· culQUS to argue that, being in such a· posi­tion, we cau change the market by hold­ina wheat. We supply the great bulk of th~ world's requirements in wool, and we could hold our wool and practically "t:!all our own tune." Here with only 1 per cent. of the world's output in wheat we are being asked to destroy the whole of our marketing Qrganization.

Mr. SLATER.-A areadful crime! Mr. OMIAN.-It. is a crime. We have

many people in this State engaged in businesses who are not interested in this question, because it does not immediately tQuch them. The policy Qf the Govern­ment is to intrO'duce Socialism by illBtal­ments. The honorable member for Lowan says that this form of Socialism would be n9 good for one year, and he w.,?uld extend the operations of the Pool for three years. The Government nOi daubt will accept that view. They would be' quite agreeable to make the POQI permanent, and they might go. fa,rther and introduce legislation for State bakeries as a means of giving the consumers a cheap loaf. I am absolutely opposed to' a compulsory Pool for one year, and I am mOire strQngly opposed to it fQr any IQnger period. I do nOit attach weight to the arguments that have been advanced about prices. We know that buyers sQmetimes operate Qn speculative values, and it may be that 3s. 3d. a ·bushel was paid for wheat that was worth 58. 3d. a bushel. The merchant might have, knQwn that when the wheat reached -the market it would not be worth 5s. 3d. Who will say that the wheat that is

being bought to-day will, when it reaches the market, be on the basis of 6s. 3id. a bushel. I said last week that the,re was a prospect of w hea t rising in price and that I was holding for 78. a, bushel. I said also that in the late,r half Qf the year, when the new crQP comes Qn to the mar­ket, there is no reaSQn tOi suppose that, with a fair area ,of winter .sown grain, we shall nQt get bacf to some,thing like normal market values, unless the seasons are adverse. If we have adverse seasons' values may rise~ I agree with the, views that have been expressed by the honQr­able member for LQwan, which I think were sound. 1-181 vQliced the feeling of his party when he wrote the letter which I have read, and it was because of that that I expressed the opinion that the compul­sory P~)QI was dead. I am not optimistic enQugh to declare that a. Bill of this magnitude is always going to run the gauntlet of two lIQuses and tOo'be pas,sed.

Mr. HOGAN.-The Legislative Council will respect the VQte of thel majority in this House.

Mr. OMAN.-I said nothing about the Legislative Council. I say that we may in the late'r months of the year frQm July on, sell wheat that we have held a.gainst the market. I know that wheat can be so.ld in millions Qf bushels at the present market values, and I am nQt going to say to the growers' that they should hold their wheat. What I dO' say is that there is no. reason why we should be expected to hold some 7,000,000 bushels until July, August or September next, and take the then market value fQr it. I say further t.hat if that market value should be equal to the market value of to­day the growers who Pool their wheat will be singularly fQrtunate. I speak as a, pro­ducer and as a man who. has had some business training., I am astounded to hear a representative of a, " blue ribbon" constituency from a whea.t-grO'lwing point of view like the Wimmera saying that the peQple in his constituency are needy and require this Pool.

Mr. WETT'ENHALL.-I rise to. a po,int of Qrder. I object to that misrep­resenta,tion. I ask t.he honorable member fQr Hampden to. withdraw his statement.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. OOTTER).-Whut was the statement?

Mr. vVETTENHALL.-The hQnQrable member fOir Hampden stated that the honorable member fQr LQwan had said that the members O'f his district were poo.r and needy.

732 Wheat [ASSRMBLY.] Marketing Bill.

The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. COTTER).-I do not know that I can make ~he honorable member for' Hampden withdraw that statement, but if the hon­orable member for Lo.wan objects to it 1 am prepared to allO'w him. to make a personal explanatian afterwards.

Mr. OMAN .-There was na.thing fur­ther from my mind than to be affensive to the honorable ~mber for Lowan, be­cause he and I are good friends. I have very great respect fOol' him. HO'we,ver, 1 know a great many men in the Wimmera, and 1 knaw Ha'rsham fairly weU, and while I am not gaing to dispute that there may be an isolated case af hardship and an odd needy man in the Lowan cO'nsti­tuency, to put forward as an argument in favour O'f a compulsory Pool the needs of th<1t " blue-ribban " cO'll6tituencj is too thin.

1\1:r. SLATER.-Your candidate gat a "raugh spin" at the last election up there, when you went up with him.

1\11'. Ol\iAN.-I am no·t dealing wIth my candidate to-night, but I would na.t be afraid to stand before a Horsham audi­ence at any time' and express the views I am nO'w expressing.

Mr. HOGAN.-You would not get many votes from them.

Mr. OMAN.-I think I would get more votes fram a Horsham town than the honorable gentleman would.

Mr. CARLISLE.-N at from the HO'rsham wheat-growers.

Mr. OMAN.-They are sensible men, and they know full well that onoe they surrender their freedam to contrO'I their own praduct and place its control in the hands of. a Bo'ard for three ye,ars, they will not be able to regain their freedom. If Sacialism is to' be accepted as the choice of this House to-night by' a combination af honarable members on both sides of the House, there must be an e·xtensiQin a.f that principle. Those who vote for this pr~pasal must be prepared to accept that view. It is folly, with a production of less than 1 per cent. of the wheat of the world in the VictOirian POIQ>I, to hope to contrQiI the value of the WQirld's wheat. The value of Victorian wheat will be determined of necessity by t,he value of wheat in othe,r parts O'f the world. You may argue until you are black in the face, but you cannot change that posi­tion. We could cantrol the WQlol position, because we held the great bulk of the production. We only hold a fraction of

the wheat.. The arguments advanced in favour of the amendment are too thin. They will na.t hold. wat.er. I am not pre­pared to a.ccept the amendment Qif the-honorable member for Lowan, though I believe he was right when he wrate a few weeks ago in the. way to which I ha ve­referred.

Mr. HOGAN (Minister of Agriculture,). -lam prepared toO accept the amend­ment with the omission af the words,. "having wheat in the 1924-1925 Paol." The effect of the amendment as submit­ted by the honorable member far Lowan WO'uid be that if a refe,rendum were taken, say in 1925, only wheat-grawers who had whe'at in the Pool this year wauld be a~lowe~ to' va~. We want to pro­VIde III the amendment, as we have' provided in the Bill in the case O'f a vote being taken at any time to elect members of the Board or for any Qither purpase, tha,t if there is a referen­dum any wheat-grolWer will be eligible to vote. The de,finition. of the people eligible to vote is covered by the definition of " wheat-grower" that we have inserted to-night. It reads-

" , ~Theat-grower' means any person or body of persons corporate or unincorporate who or which is a bona-fide grower of wheat."

All that will be accomplished if my amendment on the amendment of the honorable member for Lowan is accepted will be that any wheat-grower will be entitled to vote at any referendum or at any electian of members of the Baard.

Mr. WEST.-I desire to oppase the amendment now before, the Committee, the effect of which is to' extend the term of the compulsory POOil to three years, as I th,ink it is ve,ry unwise to pledge the credIt of the Sta.te for that periad, and so remove the whole matter from the con­trO'I of Parliament until after that period has expired. The experience of the first year of the compulsory PoO'I might be such as to justify the House in refusing to. continue it. Therefore Parliament should have the riglit to give expression to. its views after the Pool has been in opera,tioll a year. The amendment js very ane-sided, as it binds the State, but daes not bind the, whea.t-growers. The State js absolutely bound to a period of three years, whereas the wheat-grawers at the end of each year will take a poll as to whether the Pool shall be continued.

Mr. HOGAN.-Parliament would always have the right to. amend the Act if it desired to do so.

Wheat [7 OCTOBER, 1924.] Marketing Bill. 733

Mr WEST.-If Parliament makes a contr~ct that it will carryon the Pool for three years it cannot very we~l ~et ()ut of that. That would be repudIatIOn of an agreement it had entered into. .

Mr. HOGAN.-It is nO't an agreement, but an Act of Parliament which can be amended by Parliament at. an~ ·time.

Mr. \NEST.-Parliament wIll never repeal an Act under which people have entered into contracts.

Mr. HOGAN.-Pa.rliament has done it. Mr. WEST.-The Pool should be for

one year only so. t~at the :a;ou~e could have an opportunity of revlewmg the position. The· wheat-growers can discon­tinue the Pool at any time by a poll, and the House shO'uld be in the same position. The State is asked to' pledge its credit for three years, and I think that is un­desirable. .

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOGK.-] am totally opposed to the amendment. I am opposed to the principle O'f the com­pulsory marke,ting of wheat, and I think it is about time we drew the attention of the public to the position. A general election toO'k place on O'ther issues. To be perfectly candid, the people we repre­sent never anticipated that we would be discussing seriO'usly a question for cO'm­pulsorily dealing with the wheat of this State. Even after the elections, and after· the Government over which I presided was defeated, there was no thought within the minds of our friends on the other (the Ministe.rial) side of the Housel, that it was within the realms of practical politics that a Bill of this kind would be brought down. Now arrangements have been made and amendments have been accepted which make the prospect of this House authorizing a wheat Pool seem pretty clear. On behalf of those with whom I am associated I protest, because it can honestly be said that the people outside whom we represent never anticipated that we would be dealing with a Bill of this nature. Although it was in their programme, even members of the Labour party never anti­cipated it. A Bill was brO'ught in to establish a compulsory wheat Pool' fo·r twelve months. Now, in Committee, we are faced with a proposal for its con­tinuance fOT three years. As the honor­able men1be-r for (}ippslanrl South pointed out, it is proposed to' a.pply the principle for two years longer without Parliament having any say in the matter. The people of Victoria did not anticiuate any prac-

tical legislatiO'n 0.£ this BOTt. Under the a·mendment the continuance of the legislatiO'n will nO't be left to them and their representatives here. That will be decided by a vote of the wheat­growe,rs of Victoria. FO'r the 'Govern­ment to accept an amendm~nt of this ~ind in such circumstances will com,e ~s a shock to the public mind. It is a departure to alloW' a section of our citizens to determine by a referendum that legislation shall be continued. I have never seen such a thing proposed or accept.ed by a Govern­ment before. It means that this Legisla­tive Assembly will be delegating its powers in regard to this legislation to the wheat­growers. On a point of order I in­tend to submit that the amendment can­not be acoepted, because a Governor's message was brought down for a specific purpose, and that was the constitution oJ a compulsory wheat Pool for one year. The amendment means tha.t the Pool may continue in operation. for another two years.

Mr. HOGAN.--There was no message for this Bill.

Sir ALEXANDER PEACOCK.-I un­derstand there was. Anyhow, as a mem­ber of this Assembly, I object to legisla­tion on -these lines. Good gracious, where will the thing end if such, ap amendment is accepted 1 I have just been assured that I was right in saying that there was a Governor's message in connexion with this Bill, and tha,t· the object waQ

the creation of a. whea,t Pool fO'r this financial year. To extend it in the way prO'Posed is, I contend, contrary to the Standing Orders. Apart altO'gethet· from that objection, I say that euch an amendment means an abrogati.on of the rights of this House, and that ive should not allow a small sec': tiO'n of the citizens of this State to de­termine whether legislation shall continue or not. The Minister .3aid that if the amendment is carried the Government, if necessary, could bring in a Bill to repeal this law next year. My. answer to that is that if it is thought deSIrable a Bill should be bro,ught forwa.rd next year extending the legislation for anot.her twelve months. If the point I have raised is not sustained, I 'r3hall call for a, division on the amendment.

Mr. PRENDERGAST (Premier).-All the Leader of the Opposition will com­pass by raising this point is a little delay. It merely means hanging up the measure