Episode 1: White Women Killed Yoga

YogaisDeadPodcastEpisodeTranscript

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Episode1:WhiteWomenKilledYoga

(Jesal)Hi,Tejal.(Tejal)Hi,mynameispronouncedThay-jal.(Jesal)Tejal.(Tejal)It'sasoftT-Hsound.Soft,Thay-jal.(Jesal)Tajal?(Tejal)No,it'smoreThay-jal.(Jesal)Tejal.(Tejal)JustThay-jal.(Jesal)Thay-jal.(Tejal)Yeah!(Jesal)Thay-jal.


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(Tejal)Yeah!(Jesal)Howdoyouspellit?(Tejal)T-E-J-A-L(Jesal)Soit'sspelledwrong.(Tejal)No!(Jesal)It'slikereallyTejal.(Tejal)It'snotspelled--(Jesal)OrTee-jal.(Tejal)Mm,no,it'sThay-jal.[MUSIC]Helloeveryone,I'mTejal.


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(Jesal)AndI'mJesal.(Tejal)AndthisisYogaIsDead.(Jesal)We'retwoIndian-Americanyogateachers,navigatingtheweirdandtrickyworldofyoga.(Tejal)Getreadytohearourpersonalstories,thoughtsandresearchonwhokilledyoga.Grabsomechai,atallcomfortableseat,andlet'sgo.(Jesal)SoWhiteWomenKilledYogathat'sourepisodetoday.(Tejal)Yeap,that'sright.Yoga’ssixfeetunderbecausewhitewomenkilledyoga.(Jesal)Now,now,now,beforewegetintoitdisclaimer:wewannaacknowledgethatthistopicisgonnabedifficultforalotofyoulistening.Ifyou'rewhiteyoumighthearastereotypeandthink"well,that'snotallofus"andwhilethatmightbetrueit'sthesameassaying"notallmen."Inourexperiencewhitepeople,especiallywhitewomen,don'trespondwelltobeinggeneralizedorstereotyped,Soifthismakesyouupset,angryordefensivewesuggestyousitwiththosefeelingsandreflectonwhyyourfeelingsaremorevalidthanoursandwhyit'sokaytostereotypeothersbutnotwhitepeople.Solet'sgetintoit.Tejal,whyarewetalkingaboutwhitewomen?(Tejal)Wemetatastudiothatwasmanagedbybasicallytheprofilethatwe'regonnabetalkingabouttoday,awhitewomenwhocouldn'tletgoofpowerandwastryingtomanageeverythingandnotallowingustoreallyhaveanysayinwhatweweredoingatall.


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(Jesal)Rightsothiswhitewomanwasyourtypicalthin,abled-bodied,blondwhitewomenandsheownedandranastudio.(Tejal)Ithinkatthetimeofthisreleaseitnolongerexists.Butwhenwemetseveralyearsback,wewereboththereforatraining.(Jesal)Yeah,whichwekindofgotcat-fishedinto,ifyourecallcorrectly.WhatImeanbythatisthatactuallyTejalandIweretheretointerviewforjobsanditendedupbeingasituationwheretheytolduswemoreorlesshadtotaketheirtraininginordertogetthejobandneedlesstosaythatattheendofthattrainingthejobwasnotguaranteed.(Tejal)Soweendedupgoingtothateventwhichlikeyoujustsaid,waskindofaninterviewbutreallytryingtogetustofilterintotheiranatomytraining.Andweendedupdoingtheanatomytrainingandweactuallyconnectedoverourdisappointmentduringthattrainingrightatthestart.(Jesal)Rightatthestart.SoIthinkdayonetheyaskeduswhat'sthedifferencebetweenHathayogaandRajayoga?Andforsomecontextoutthere,IdidmytraininginIndiaonRajayogaandI'manIndian-Americanwoman-deeplyconnectedtoyogaandtomyheritage-andwhenaskedthisquestionIansweredrightaway:liketheHathaYogaPradipika,themostcommononethateverybodyhas,hasonlysixlimbs;Rajayogaiseightlimbs;Hathayogaisbodyfocused;Rajayogaismoreaboutmorals,discipline,lifestyle.AndwhenIsaid,thattheownerofthestudiototallyshutmedown,toldmeIwaswrongandthenwaslikeohwellI'mgonnalookitupandyouknow,inmymindI'mlike,"soamI."Thenextdayshecomesback,startsoffthedaywith:soIlookeditupandyou'rewrong.AndinmymindI'mlike,"Onwhatplanet?"becauseyouhavethesamecopyofthisbookthatIhave.Sothatwasadisappointment.(Tejal)Ithinkwhatwasreallychallengingaboutthatconversationwasfirstofall,hearingayogateacherorsomeonewhowaslookingtobeamentortostudentsgiveastudentabigfat“no.”SowhatIlearnedisthatthroughouttrainingsandthroughoutyoureducationinyogait'stypicallyyesANDhere'sanotherpointofvieworanotherwaytolookatthings.Anditwasthesameforthisconversation.You


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candoaquickGooglesearchonthisexactquestionandyoucanfinddifferentopinionsonwhetherHathayogaissixoreightlimbs.Andwho'stosaywhat'sexactlyrightwe'retalkingaboutapracticesoancientitpredateswrittenword.(Jesal)You'rerightHathayogaissooldthatthedefinitionofHathayogaissovariedamongstthedifferentschoolsofyogaandthelimbsarecompletelydifferentfromonepracticetoanother.Soattheendoftheday,toinsistthatyou'rerightaboutsomethingwhensomebodyfromthatethnicbackgroundistellingyouitmightbedifferent,iskindofjarring.(Tejal)Itwas!Itwastotallycrazy.HereIamwatchinganotherIndian-AmericanyogateacherdefendherpointofviewandhavingstudiedinIndiaandbeingtoldbytwowhitewomenwho,notthatdifferentinage,educationortrainingaretellingyou“no,you'rewronganddon'teventhinkaboutthataswegoforward.”(Jesal)“There'sonlyoneway.”Andsoyoumightthink"Oh,you'reblowingonethingoutofproportion,"butwe'regonnatellyouanotherstorybecauseafewdayslater...(Tejal)IhadasituationandJesal’ssittingtherewatchingmegothroughthissituation.Soweweretalking,justtalkingaboutasana–“asan”ifyoumightsayitthatwayandIthinkIsaidtheword“utkatasan”insteadof“utkatasana,”which-chairpose,awkwardfiercepose-andwhattheF?TheytoldmethatIwassayingthewordwrong.(Jesal)Okaysothey'retellinganIndian-AmericanwhostudiedheryogainIndiathatshe'ssayingitwrong.Nowforallofyououtthere,“utkatasan”isthenormalwayofsayingit.Sayinganyofthese"-asan"wordsbydroppingthelastAisacommonthing-it'slikeacontractionoftheword.AndthiswomanistellingTejalthatactuallyit'snotthecorrectpronunciationandwhatyou'resayingisadialectnottheproperwayofsayingit...whichiscompletelyridiculousbecause--


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(Tejal)Sowethinkit'ssimilartosaying“transverseabdominals”asopposedto“transversusabdominis.”Noone'sgonnatellyoutheLatinisincorrectwhenyou'reusingitandnoone'sgonnasaytheEnglishisincorrectifyou'renotusingtheLatin.(Jesal)Right,thecommonwayofsayingitformostpeopleistransverseabdominals'causethat'sEnglish.Soifyou'resaying"utkatasan"that'slikethenormallanguagethatpeoplespeakasopposedtoSanskritsoit'skindofcrazythatsomewhitewomanistellingtwoIndianpeople-'causeIrememberbackingyouuponthisTejal-shetoldtwoIndianpeoplethatthey'resayingthewordwrong.MeanwhilethispersonstudiedunderawhitepersonandiswhiteherselfandhasnoconnectiontoIndiawhatsoever.(Tejal)Thosetwoscenarioshappenedsoearlyon.IthinkyouhadsaiddayoneandthenIthinkminehadhappenedveryearlyon,maybeweekoneorweektwo.Andfromthatmomentwhenwewalkedoutofthestudiowewouldchat,havesomeconversation-lightconversation-butafterthatpointIthinkyouandIreallystartedtotalkabouthowwefelt-abouthowwefeltaboutthosethingsandnotjustthecontentoftheanatomytrainingbutallthesedifferentmicroaggressionsthatwefeltrightatthestartandhowwefeltpowerlessbecausewewereinvestedingettingthistraining,wethoughtitwastherightthingnextthingtobedoingtoworkatastudioorgainmoreknowledge.Andwehadtoweightheriskversusrewardhere.Doweriskbeinginthistrainingandtellingthesepeoplewho,reallyfragilelyholdallthispower,thatthey'rewrong;riskruiningtherelationshipwiththemintermsoftryingtolike,dotherightthing!Anditwasreallychallengingasateacherenteringatrainingandnotreallyknowinghowtonavigateaspacelikethat.Formeitwasmyfirstyeartryingtoteachfulltimeso,stillfeelingalittlebitgreeninthatregard,itwasjustreallychallenging.ButIwillsayitwassuperamazingtobeabletotalktoyouaboutthat.(Jesal)Yeahitwassuperchallengingandagain,inpartbecausethiswassupposedtobelikeaprolongedjobinterviewsoyoufeltlikeifIdon'tstayinmylane,I'mnotgonnagetthejob.Andwe'retoldoverandoveragainhowharditistogetpaidintheyogaindustry.(Tejal)Yeah,Iactuallywouldlovetohearfromyou.Ithinkwebothwouldlovetohearfromyouguysaboutexperiencesthatresonatesimilarlyinthiswaywhereyoujustfeltpowerlesseventhoughyouhadeducationandbackgroundandknowledge


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toofferinthesituation.Howmanytimesdidyoufeelstrippedoftherighttoexpressyouropinionbecauseyouwereworriedaboutrockingtheboat?(Jesal)Yeah,exactly.AndIthinkthatwassortofthebondingmomentthatwehadistalkingaboutthisoneparticularpersonandit'ssortoflikeIthinkthegenesisofthispodcast.Butsincethattime,Ithinkwebothfoundanincreasingnumberofchallengingpersonalitieswithwhitewomenespecially,whitewomeninsomesortofleadershipposition.Ithinkingeneral,andjustagaintogeneralize,wefoundthesewomentobeimpenetrabletofeedback,wefoundthemextremelydefensiveattheslightestsuggestionordifferenceinopinion,wefoundthemexhibitingextremefoodobsessionandunabletocontaintheirhangupsaboutbodyimage.Ifindmanyofthemtobehypercompetitivewithotherwomenandthey'reculturallyconditionedtoteareachotherdownratherthansupportthecommunityasawhole,whichifyoulookatothercommunitiesofyogateachersouttherethatarenotwhite,you'llseeit,we'relikereallysupportiveofeachother,we'renotheretoteareachotherandcompete-whichisnotsomethingyouusuallyfindwithwhitewomeningeneral.(Tejal)Let'stryandunderstandthiswhitewomenphenomenaoutsideoftheyogaworldinabroadersense.Rememberthe2016electionsandtheclusterfuckthatwas?Sosomepeopleweren'tsurprisedattheelectionresultsbutpeopleIknowandme,(Jesal)Iwas.(Tejal)Yeah,andyou,werejustdumbfoundedthatexitpollsshowed52%ofwhitewomenvotedforTrump.GrantedthemajorityofwhitewomendovoteRepublicanbutTrumpladies?LikeI'mstillreeling.(Jesal)Really?[sarcastic](Tejal)IresearchedmoreaboutwhywhitewomendidendupvotingforTrump,sadly,andluckyformeJackiePayneisalsotryingtounderstandthisquestion.And


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she'sawhitewomenwithanimpressiveresumeofadvocacyandactivismworksoI'mgonnaquoteherhere.Shecategorizeswhitewomenvotersintothreegroups.Beacons,groupone.Thosewhoareclearintheirbeliefs,talkaboutit,sharetheiropinionsfreelyandwhompeoplecometoforadvice.Peacemakers,secondgroup.Clearintheirbeliefsyetdon'ttalkaboutthemopenlyinanefforttokeepthepeace.Andthemorenebulous,Questioninggroup,groupthree.Alittlehardertopindowninyoursocialcircles,thosewhoseepoliticsasdivisiveandtraditionallyoutsourcetheiropinionstoothers,althoughtheymaybewakinguptothecurrentclimatethey'restillnotreadytojointhePeacemakers,grouponeorBeacons,grouptwo.AndIwasthinkingaboutthisandIseethisasadirectcomparisontowhywhitewomenkilledyogaandwhitewomenstudioownerswhoarereadytoseeyogaasmorethanjustawaytofeelgoodintheirindividualbody.TheBeaconstudioownersarethosewhitewomen,thosewhoofferopenlevelclassesthatembodyphilosophyandnotjustphysicality,thatdon'twhitewashthepractice,thatinvitediversityandactivismrelatedworktobehighlightedalongsideasanapractice,creatingmoreunionandmoreconnectiontowhat'srelevantandimportantwhetherit'sdeemedpoliticalornot.AndthenyouhavethePeacemakerstudioownerswhoareactivistsintheirownrightbutmightnotbringnon-asanafocusprogramingintotheirstudiospacesoasnottoupsetordisturbclients.Andthenyouhavewhatmightevenbethemostproblematicgroup:theQuestioningstudioowners.Morethanhappytofollowthestatus-quo,ignorediversity,equityandinclusivityandallowotherstodotheheavyliftingsotheycanfocusonsellingclothes,sellingaromatherapyandsellingteachertraining.Sothisallboilsdowntoonequestionforme:“Shouldn'tallstudiosrunbywhitepeoplewhowannapracticerealyogaberunbyBeacons?”AndwhenitcomestotalkingaboutorignoringpoliticsthesedaysIliketoquoteoneofmyfavoriteauthors,ArundhatiRoy."Themomentabreathentersthebody,itbecomespolitical."(Jesal)That'sareallygreatquoteTejalandIloveitmoresobecauseIthinkalotoftimeswhenyouinteractwith,especiallywhitepeople,there'sthisideathatyoucansomehowerasetheenvironmentinwhichweliveandencapsulateyoga-it'sthisthingonitsownanditlivesandbreathesonitsown.Butinfact,youcan'tactuallydoyogaorliveyogawithoutthecontextoftheworldaroundyouandtheworldaroundusismorepoliticalthanever.Butgoingbacktotheexamplesthatyougaveaboutthosethreegroups,Ithinkit'sinterestingbecausetheQuestioninggroupseemsliketheobviousbad,bigbadalmost.Buttheothergroup,thePeacemakergroupislikethisinsidiousproblemright?They'relikehiddeninplainsightandthat's--(Tejal)YeahIwouldgoassofartosaythisgrouparethegroupofpeoplethatarethemonsterslurkingundertheyogamat.


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(Jesal)Exactly!'Causeyoucan'tactuallypointthemouteasilyandsaylike"look:you'reourproblem."ButIreadthisarticlebyRachelElizabethCarglecalled"WhenFeminismisWhiteSupremacyinHeels"andIthinkeverybodyintheyogaworldneedstoreadthisarticle.Shewasprimarilywritingaboutwhitewomen'sreactiontoblackwomen'svoiceswhenitcomestofeminismbuthonestlyIresonatedwithitsomuchbecauseIthought,"OhmyGod.ThisisexactlywhatweasIndian-Americanwomenintheyogaindustryexperience."Andinit,shedescribesthesesuperliberalwomenwhoclaimtobeallaboutsocialjusticeandequalityandintersectionalfeminismandYET,whenyouandITejal,bringupthingsorwhenourfriends,(we'vealsoheardfrommanyofourfriendswhoareeitherblackorIndianorotherwomenofcolor)bringupissuesthatmakethemfeeluncomfortable,theydeflectbytellingusHOWweshouldbegivingthefeedbackordemanding“UNITY!”Soyouhearthisallthetime,like"Ohbutwe'rejustapositivespacewe'reallaboutloveandlight"ordemanding"weareallone,"-youhearthatallthetimeandit'sjustanotherwayofsaying"shutupandmaintainthestatusquo."Or,theymaketheconversationallabouttheirguilt:"OhmyGod,IknowI'mawhitewomenwithprivilege.Idon'tknowwhattodo,"andtheybreakdownandcryandthennowyoufindyourselfcomfortingthemratherthanaddressingtheissuethatmadewomenofcolororpeopleofcoloruncomfortabletobeginwith.(Tejal)Yeahtherearewordsforthosethings,WhiteFragility,WhiteGuilt,WhiteTears.(Jesal)Yeah,andyouseethisoverandoverandoveragainonsocialmedia.Soit'slikeimmediatelyjustcheckoutanypostofdissentagainstastatusquoonsocialmedia,youcancheckoutoursocialmediaandothers,andyou'llseelikewhitewomenwhoclaimtobeallsuperliberaleitherspeakingforagroupwithoutinvitingthemintotheconversation.Orapersoncanputapostoutsayingacriticismoftheyogaworldandthenawhitepersonwillcommentandsay“well,that'snotvalidbecause…notallofus,”or--(Tejal)Ohandthe"shoulds!"Don'tdropyour"shoulds"onme.Idon'tneedyoutellingmewhatIshouldorshouldnotbedoing.Soessentiallywe'retalkingaboutacoupledifferentbuckets,maybeevenmorethanacouple.We'retalkingaboutwhite


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women'syogastudiosowners,we'retalkingabouttheimpactonsocialmediaandsilencing.Whatwewannasayaboutthewhitewomenyogastudioownersisthat:“Quitworkingwiththatscarcitymentalityratherthanamindsetofabundance,okay?Andstoprefusingtochangeyourbusinesspracticesowecanmakeyogamoreaccessibleanddiverseandincludetoallcommunities.”(Jesal)Puttingyourmoneywhereyourmouthis.Andwehavesometipsonhowtobeabetterallyattheendofthisepisodesomakesureyoustaytunedtotheend.Butgoingbacktothatsocialmediathing,actuallywebothlistenedtothispodcastbyYogaGirlAKARachelBrathen.Isthathowyousayhername?RachelBrathen?(Tejal)Let'sjustsayB.RachelB.(Jesal)Rachelwe'resorryifwesaidyournamewrong.ButtheepisodeshedidwasonculturalappropriationandshehadinvitedguestspeakerSusannaBarkatakianditwasactuallyveryinterestingbecauseshehadoneofthosemomentswhereshepostedsomethingthatwas,youknow,insensitivetotheIndianyogacommunityandherreactionwasalsoinitiallydefense.Selfdefensewhich,Igetit:alotofpeoplefeeldefensivewhentheyareputonthespot.AndshehasthiswholeconversationwithSusannawhereintheend,basically,sherealizesthat:"IfIcanjustdoonesmallthingtonothurtawholegroupofpeoplelike,isn'tthatsmallsacrificeworthit?"It'snotabigdeal.It'snotabigdealtonotwearabindi.(Tejal)Yeahthearticleorthepodcastwassuperinterestingbecauseshedidgettotellherstoryanddefendherpositionwhich,youdoneedtohearthebackgroundinordertounderstandwhysomeonewoulddoathinganyway.ItboileddowntoemotionalattachmentandRachelwastalkingabouttheemotionalattachmentshehadtowearingabindiwhenshewasyoungerandwhyshefeltlikethatwasanodbacktoherfriendwhentheyusedtodoitwhentheywereyounger.Thatdoesn'tmakeitrightwhenyouwereyounger,doesn'tgiveyouanexcusetocontinuetobehavethatwayandsherecognizedthatintheconversationwithSusannaandrecognizingthatisgreat.ThenIheardalaterpodcastwithherandDeepakChopra.(Jesal)OhGodDeepakChopra.


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-TheDoctorOzofyoga.AndinthisconversationyoucanhearRacheltalkaboutculturalappropriationwithasenseofreliefandasenseoflettinggoofresponsibilitybecauseDeepakChopra,anIndianman,cameonthatpodcastandsaidtoher"Idon'tbelieveinculturalappropriation.IthinkthatyogateachersintheWestarebetterthanyogateachersintheEast."(Jesal)OhGodDeepakChopra.(Tejal)“Here'showyoucanliveasuccessfulhappyhealthylife,repeattheseaffirmationsandsleepalot.”(Jesal)Ithinkwe'regonnahavetohaveawholeanotherepisodeonhim.(Tejal)Butwhatstruckmeis,listeningtothosetwoconversationsbacktoback,oneyoucanhearYogaGirlactuallyfeelinguncomfortable-whichisagoodplacetoliveinforamomentasyou'reworkingthroughtheseissuesasyou'rearefeelingcalledout,asyou'refeelingdefensivebutstillhavingtheconversation-andthenrightafterIlistentotheDeepakChopraconversationandhewasabsolvingherofanyresponsibilityanditmadeherfeelrelieved.Butguesswhat?Thisworkisheavy,itcarriesaweightonyourshouldersandit'swhatmostpeopleofcolorfeeleverysingledaywalkingintoaroomwherethey'renotofthemajority;wherethey'rehavingtoshoulderoffthesecommentsthatmakethemfeeluncomfortable,thatareculturallyinsensitive.(Jesal)SowegotintothispodcasttotalkaboutoutourpersonalstoriesandTejalhasareallygreatpersonalstory.Well,greatorterrible,youdecide.(Tejal)InthefalllastyearIdecidedtotakeanadvancedmentorshiptrainingatastudiothatIenjoyedpracticingatandIrespectedandadmiredoneofthemainleadteachersofthismentorship.Italsofitmyschedule,whichisprettyimportantasayogateacher.Ididn'thavetomovethingsaroundanditfeltlikeIwashelpingtofill


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mycup,lookingforalittlebitmoreintermsofguidedpracticeandrefinementofmyskillset.SothecohortorthegroupofotherteachersthatIwerewithinvolvedoneotherAsianwomanandeightwhitewomen.Andsixweeksintothiseightweektraining,afterallthosehourshadbeenloggedbeingwiththesepeople,Irealizedsomeofmycolleaguesandoneoftheleadteachers-theonethatIadmiredandrespected-didn'tknowhowtosayorspellmyname.(Jesal)Nowthiswasparticularlyweirdbecauseyouwereonatextgroupwiththesepeople,no?(Tejal)Yeah,whichmeanstherewaswrittenproofandevidenceinemailsandintexts,Iactuallyrealizedthiswashappeningbecauseofamisspellingofmynameinthetextconversationandalackofhearingit.Iwasabletoreferbacktothattextconversation.IhadmentionedmynamefourtimesandtwoasintroductionstowhoIam.(Jesal)That'sgreatthatyouproactivelyintroducedyourselfonthosechainsbecausemostpeoplewouldn'tevendothat.(Tejal)YeahIjustknewbetteratthistimeandIkeptseeinglike,uh,thisflippantattitudetowardsactuallygettingtoknoweachotherratherthanaskingforhomeworkoraskingfortipsonhowtogetbetterontheirownskills.(Jesal)Soyourealizdethesepeopledidn'tknowyournamebutyoudidn'tconfrontthemrightawayright?Therewaslikeatippingpointmoment?(Tejal)Yeahthereareacoupleofthings.Onewasthegrouptextmessagewherethenamewasmisspelledacoupletimesandthesamequestionkeptcomingup,“Sorrywhoisthisagain?”Thatwaswithmycolleaguesinthetrainingwithme.Andthenwithoneoftheteachers,Iattendedherclassesasanassistanttopracticehandsonadjustmentsandtheteacherdidn'tintroducemebynametwice,sotwoweeksinarow.


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(Jesal)Butshehadbeenintroducingotherteacherssothisis,like,incontrasttowhatwasalreadyhappening.(Tejal)Yeah.Imeanusuallynotanissue.That'snotreallyabigdealbutIpracticedintwoofherotherclassesandinthosesametwoweekssheintroducesthatassistantbyname.(Jesal)Now,thisislikeoneofthosemicroaggressionsthatwetalkaboutbecause,youknow,she'snotintroducingyou.Itdoesn'tseemlikenecessarilyabigdealbutthatmeansthatallthestudentsinthoseclassesdon'tknowwhoyouare.Soiftheywannalookyouupontheschedulewhenyoustartteachingandcometoyourclasses,they'renotgonnarememberyou.(Tejal)Yeah,JesalyouactuallyhaveagreatemailthatyousentoutinyournewsletterafterItoldyouthisstorywhereyourecappedittosharethoseopinionsandIthinkweshouldlinkitinourshownotes.(Jesal)Yeah,we'lldefinitelydothat.(Tejal)SothisstartedbotheringmesixweeksinandIwasnearthefinishlineguys.Like,Iwasgonnagetthiscertification-youknow,thatpapercertificatethatsays:you'reanamazingyogateacherandwecare.SoIcould'vejustletthatslide.Obviously.Thatwouldbeaneasywaytogoaboutitbutreallyshutdownmyfeelingsaroundit.(Jesal)Andalsoitshutsdownyouropportunityinthefutureright?Againlikewesaid,peoplearenotgonnaknowyournameandpartofthereasonyoudoatrainingistonetworkandtomeetmorestudentsaswellascolleagues.


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(Tejal)Exactly.Butsometimestheemotionaltoilandlaborofaddressingpeopleandtellingthemwhat'saffectingyouandhowyoufeelaboutthingsisjustalotofwork.Andtherecarriesaphysicalstress,itcarriesemotionalstresstothat-andIknewallthatwascomingbecauseIwasstartingtofeelitinmybody.(Jesal)Sohowdidyougoaboutit?(Tejal)SoafriendintownwhoIreally,reallyvalueherfriendshipandfeedback,actuallyeditedthetextmessagethatIwantedtosendtomycolleaguesandIthoughtitwasabeautifultextmessage-itincludedthearticlethatyoujustmentionedthat’slinkedintheshownotes.AndthenafterIsentthattextIemailedtherecapandthenspoketotheleadteacheraboutthissoshehadanFYItokeepherintheloop,andwestartedtohaveaconversation.Sheresponded-immediatelyresponded,Ishouldsay,byexplainingandtellingmethatithappenstoherallthetime.Peoplemessuphername.Andlet'sjustsaythiswoman'sname--(Jesal)Soshespirituallybypassedthesituation.(Tejal)Yeahhowcanyouimmediatelydefuseanddeflecthowanotherpersonfeelsaboutitbytellingthemithappenstoyouallthetimeandnotreallycaringthatthey'reauniqueindividualandtheyhaveaverydifferentstory.Sothiswomanlet'sjustcallherChristina,wassaying,"Ohpeoplemakeupmynameinalldifferentvariationsallthetime.Theyspellitintotallydifferentways,theyevencallmeKareena."Whatever-I'mjustusinganexample.AndIsattherelistening,nolongerbeingabletoexplainhowIfelt,nolongerfeelingseenorheardbecausethiswomanwantedtotellmethatit'sokaybecauseit'snotaproblem.(Jesal)Okay,andjustlikeforcontext,IknowlotsofpeopleouttherehavewaymorecomplicatednamesthanTejalandIfeelwayworseforthem.ButTejal'snameisliketwosyllablesguys,andit'snotthathardtopronouncetobeginwith.Tejal,that'sit.(Tejal)Yeahit'sactuallymorecomplexthanweliketoconsider.Anameispartofyouridentity,it'spartofwhoyouareandsomeone’srespectofyournameactually


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showshowmuchtheycare.Andthat'sjusthowIfeelaboutit.Andmaybethisissomethingalotofpeopledon'tconsiderbecauseSarah'ssuchaneasynametoremember.WhileI'vebeentoldonmultipleoccasionsthatmynameismisspelledbecauseitdoesn'tsoundlikethewayitlooksandsomeone'shad--(Jesal)Sothey'retellingyouyourownnameismisspelledeventhoughitcomesfromadifferentlanguage?(Tejal)Yeahbasicallythey'resaying“I'mnotgonnalearnhowtosayconsonantsandsoundsinyourlanguagetogetyournameproperly,”andthatboilsdownto…“I'lljustcallyouwhateverIwant.”Andthat'sunacceptable.Inolongerallowthat.Thatsameconversationwiththeleadteacher-oneexamplesheusedtotryandmakemefeelbetteraboutitjustwasterribleandIreallywannasharethiswithyouguyssoyoudon'tevereffingdothistoanybody.Shesaidtome,“WellyournameiskindoflikeSanskritandthat'sareallyhardlanguageforalotofpeopleso…”Atthatmoment,Iwaslike“thisconversationneedstostop.We'renotgettinganywhere.You'renotlisteningtome.I'mcomingtoyouwithaconcern.I'mgonnagochangemyclothes.”AndIthoughtaboutthatcomment:mynameisnotlikeanoldancientlanguagethatisusedonlyinreligiouspracticesandnowoftentimesinyogaclasses.(Jesal)Wait,wait,wait,sothisishappeninginayogastudiowhichismoreF'edupbecause,aren'talltheseteachersusingSanskritwordsallthetimetodescribetheposes?(Tejal)Yes.AndthisparticularteachertookthetimetolearnSanskritnames.Ilikedthatabouther.Somyresponsetoeverysinglecommentshekepttellingmewasthat,“listenI'mbringingthisuptoyoubecauseI'msixweeksin,Ifeelfriendlywithwiththesepeople.IfeellikeIwannajointhiscommunityandthisisawayformetofeelmorecomfortable.Thisisayogaandmindfulnesscommunity.Where'sthemindfulness?”Irepeatedthatoverandover.ThemindfulcommunitiesIwannajoinwillcare,willrespectwhatIhavetosayandIwantustogettheretogether.Andeventuallyshesaid,“LookTejal,whatdoyouwantmetodo?”“Okay,”Isaid.“Iwantedtoinformyouthisisn'treallyanactionableitemforyouunlessyoufeelcalledtodosomething.”SothenextfewdaysincludedanotherteacherandteachertraineecallingmebyadifferentIndiangirlsname.


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(Jesal)SonotevenTejal.NotevensomethingremotelyclosetoTejalright?(Tejal)No,justadifferentIndiangirlsname.Andoneawkwardsuccessstoryhappened.(Jesal)Waitwhatwasthename,whatdidtheycallyou?(Tejal)Ican'tremember.(Jesal)LikeDivyaorsomething?(Tejal)UhIwishIknewbutIdon't.Ifeelbadforthatgirltoo,becauseshe'sclearlyapartofthatcommunitygivingthemalotofdollarstotrainwiththem.Attheendoftheday,I'mnotsurethatshematters.(Jesal)Rightbecauseyou'rejusttwoIndiangirlssodoesn'tmatterwhichnametheycallyouby.(Tejal)Therewassomelightattheendofthistunnelbecausetheotherteacher,rememberItoldyouaboutoneofthementorsIrespectedandadmiredwhodidn'tactuallyusemynamewhileIwasassisting?HerandIhadanawkwardsuccessstorywhereIrelayedthiswholeconversationwithherabouttheotherteacherandIsaid“Look.thisreallyaffectsme.”Andofcourse,shetriedtodiffuseanddeflectthesituation.Makeitnobigdeal.Shetoldmethatmy‘gift’mightbetoexplainmynametopeopleandsounditoutandhavethemreciteitbacktomeeverytimeImeetsomeone.AndIsaid,“Nomy‘gift’isnottodothatmuchworkeverytimeImeetsomeone.Ithinkmy‘gift’ishavingaconversationwithyoubecauseyou'reinapositionwhereyoucanhelpmakethiscommunitymoremindful.”Andeventuallyshestoppedtalking,shelookedmeintheeyesshemighthaveheldmyhandandsaid,“I'mreallysorrythishappenedtoyouandIthinkwecanalldobetter.”


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(Jesal)Yeah.Andsothatwasareallynicehappyending.But,unfortunatelythetriedandtruestrategyofmostpeople-andasyousawinthestorytheleadteacher-isofnotlistening,ofdefendingyourselfandtalkingaboutyourselfwhensomeonecomestoyouwithaconcern.Sothoseareexactlythethingsthattheleadteacherdidthatweseeoverandoveragain.(Tejal)Yeahandinthatscenario,eventhoughIcommunicatedtoeveryonemyconcernsandactuallyhadtheonesuccessfromit,itstilldoesn'tmakemefeelwelcomeinthatspaceorthatthecommunityisoneofmindfulnessandinclusivitywhichisthekickerayogaspacethatcannotwalkthetalk.(Jesal)Imeanunfortunatelythat'ssocommon.Andwehadmentionedthisterm“spiritualbypassing”beforeandforthoseofyoufollowingusonInstagram@yogaisdeadpodcastyou'llseewepostedsomethingabout“loveandlight,yeahright”becausewehearthisallthetimeandwementioneditearlierintheepisodethatpeopleusethesetermstojustshutusdownandtomaintainthestatusquo'causethestatusquobenefitsthem,frankly.Well,CamilleWilliamswritesthisgreatquotethatIwannareadtoyouthathastodowithspiritualbypassing.Shewrites,"Racismandspiritualbypassingareharmfulinandofthemselves,andtheircombinationcompoundstheharm.Addgaslightingandyou'vegotanexponentiallytoxicbrew."Ifyoudon'tknowwhatgasligthingis,it’sthepsychologicalmanipulationthatseekstosowseedsofdoubtinatargetedindividualorinmembersofatargetedgroupmakingthemquestiontheirownmemory,perceptionorsanity.It'sbasicallywhenyou'rebeingtoldyou'recrazyandthatyou'rewrongallthetimewhenyourfeelingarequitevalid,And,youknow,whenyoudosomemoreresearchoryoufindotherpeopleouttherethatyouconnectwith,yourealizeyouweren'tcrazy.Thosepeopleweregaslightingyou.(Tejal)Wedefinitelywannahearfromyouifyoufeellikethisresonates.Ifyou'vebeenaffectedlikethisandanyotherway.Andalotofpeoplesaytheirstudioortheirteamappreciatesandwelcomesdiversitybuthow'sthatpossiblewhenthemajorityofyourstaffandstudentsarewhite?Howareyoulivingadiverseexperience?Thefactis,inordertobeinclusiveyouhavetodotheworktoeducateyourselfandothers.Thatmeansmakingdoubletheeffort,sendingspecialinvites


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outtocommunitiesofcolorthatyouwishwerethere,thatyouwannarepresentinyourstudioandaskingfortheiropinionandhelp.(Jesal)Andwe'regonnahavemoretipsattheendofourepisodeonhowtobeagreatally,somakesureyoucheckthatoutandwe'llalsobepostingthatonoursocialmedia.(Tejal)Wecan'texpressthisenough,butittakesmorethantojustsayitorpostitonsocialoryourwebsite.YouhavetoLIVEit.Soundlikesomethingelsewecareaboutliving?(Jesal)Yoga.(Tejal)Ohyeah.Yoga!It'sthesamewithyoga.Youhavetoliveit.(Jesal)Youcan'tjustreadaboutitandtalkaboutit.Sohowdowethinkwegottothisplace?Thisplacewherewelackdiversity,alisteningearandanopenmind.WherethestereotypeofayogiisnolongeranIndianpersonofanykindorapersonsittingstillinmeditation,butofanextremelythinwhitewomenwearingLululemon,malabeadsaroundherwristandposinginsomeridiculous,almostdangerouslyflexible,pose.(Tejal)Instagram?Imeannotreally,butalsoreally?(Jesal)YeahImightagreewithyoutherealittlebit.Iknowthat'stheeasywayoutbutitkindofistrue.AndpreparingforthispodcastIdidalotofresearchforthisepisodeandpersonallyIthinkthatthestereotypegoesway,waybacktoIndraDevi.


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WellalotofpeoplethinkKrishnamacharyagaveherthisnamebutactuallyshecameupwiththisnameherself.(Tejal)Astagename?(Jesal)Yeah,'causeshewasanactressand,Ithink,aRussianballetdancer.(Tejal)Yeap.(Jesal)Wellfunnyenough,whenwewerepreparingforthispodcastSusannaBarkataki,whowelove,repostedapostfromYogaGlo.SoYogaGlopostedthispostaboutIndraDeviandhowamazingsheisandhowshe'satrailblazer.(Tejal)AndweunderstandthatthispostisnotastandalonepostjusthighlightingIndraDevi.ItwasapostforWoman's--(Jesal)InternationalWoman'sDay.(Tejal)InternationalWoman'sDay.AndMarchiswoman'shistorymonthandsotheymaybehaddoneaseriesofpoststoprofilefeministsandfemaleleadersintheyogaworld.(Jesal)Yes,andSusannaverysweetlyandeloquentlypointedoutthatIndraDevi-callingherthistrailblazerthatdidalltheseamazingthingsiskindofanoverexaggerationanddiminishesthecontributionofSouthAsianwomantoyoga.


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(Tejal)Sheusesthetermcenteringonwhiteness.Whichisactuallywhathappened.It'scenteringonwhitenesstoeliminateothervoicesandPOCvoicesandSouthAsianvoices,alsoknownasDesivoices(oftheSouthAsiandiaspora).Whatelsewasreallyinterestingaboutthispostarethecomments.OfcoursepeoplecometoInstagramsometimestohaveconversations,butit'showyoutalkthatactuallysparksmoreconversationormoreheat.Andifyougotothecommentsonthispost,itactuallywasacoupleweeksago,sosometimeinMarch,thewellmeaningwhitewomanthatcommentedonSusanna'spostchastisedherfornotgivingcontexttoYogaGlo'swholearticle,thenusedtheword“should”tellingSusannawhatsheshouldbedoingaboutherownpostandthenbackeditup-doubledownedwithasecondconversationusingtheword“should”again.AlsosayingthewordsI'mnotheretofight.Sowemadeareallygreatcomment-thanksJesalforwritingthat.Doyouwannatalkalittlebitaboutthatcomment?(Jesal)Yeah,wellshesaid,“I'mnotheretofightwithanybody.”And,it'slike,youseethisonInstagram,onsocialmediaallthetime.WherethiswomancametoSusanna'spost.Shewasn'tontheYogaGlo'ssite,shewasonSusanna'sreposting.“I'mnotheretofightbutI'mjustgonnatellyouwhyyou'rewrongaboutyourthoughtsonthistopic.”AndsoIwrotebackbasicallysaying“Well,youareheretofightbecauseyoucamehere.Likethisisyourchoice,youraction.Youcouldhaveverywellhavepostedthisonyourownpagebutyoudecidedtostayanonymousonyourownpageyoudon'thaveasinglepictureofyourself.Youdon'tidentifyyourownname.Soyou’drathertrollsomebodyelse'spagethantomakeastandforyourselfandmaybeevensay,likehowamazingyouthoughttheYogaGlopostwas.”AndnottomentionYogaGlo-giantcompany-theydon'tneedyoutodefendthem.Sowellmeaningwhitepersonwedon'tneedyourcomments,thankyouverymuch.(Tejal)Alsoawhitepersonwhosaidinhercomments,andthisissomethingpeopledoalot,theysay,“I'mnottalkingaboutdiversityrightnow.Iamtalkingaboutliftingupawoman'svoiceoverinapatriarchalsociety.”(Jesal)Whichgoesrightbacktothatthingthatwetalkedabout.Feminismhastobeintersectional.(Tejal)Youcannottalkaboutelevatingwomen'svoiceswithouttalkingaboutmarginalizedwomen'svoices,marginalizedpeople'svoicesandhowitrelates.There'snofeminismwithoutintersectionality.Wesawthiscomeupsomuchinthe


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lastfiveyearsespeciallyintheWomen'sMarch,sowe'regonnaneedtotalkaboutitintheyogaworldnow.(Jesal)Yeah,sowhilethatwaslikeyouknowniceandallshewantedtohighlightawomanorYogaGlowantedtohighlightawoman,attheendoftheday,itwasanoffensivepostthatbasicallycreditedIndraDeviforbringingyogatowoman.(Tejal)IndraDeviisnotthefirstwomantodoyoga.ImetthiswomanintheWestandherfamily,she'sIndian,herfamilyhaspracticedKashmirShaivism,andasfarbackassheknows,it'scomefromthefemalelineinherfamily.It'sjusttodisprovethatthisidea,thatthingswerebornintheWestandgiventousfromtheWest.(Jesal)SoIndraDeviendsuptransformingherownidentity,changinghernameandwearingsaristoseemmoreauthentic.AndoriginallyshecametoBombaytoact,Ibelieve,andthen--(Tejal)Bollywood.EverybodyknowagoodBollywoodmovie?(Jesal)AndthensheusedherprivilegedpositiontoforceKrishnamacharyatoteachherandtoletherteachintheUSaswell.Soshegotthekingoftheareatobasicallyusehispower-herconnectionwiththekingbasically-andshelike,askedthekingtoforceKrishnamacharyatoteachher.Sothatwasagreatexampleof--(Tejal)Yeahshegoesbacktoherelitelife.(Jesal)Whiteprivilege.(Tejal)Exactly,whiteprivilege.Shegoesbacktoherelitelifeandsellsyogaasselfhelpandfitness.


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(Jesal)WellfirstshedoesitinChinaandthenshemovestotheUSandthenstarts--(Tejal)Soshetestedthemarket.(Jesal)AndstartsteachingtheHollywoodcrowd.(Tejal)Sheplaysintothestereotypethatwomenneedfixingandmustpleasetheirhusbands.(Jesal)There'smanyquotesonthissoifyoudon'tbelieveus,goGoogleit.(Tejal)Andinsteadofgivingthemyogathatissupposedtobreakdownthatyougoshegivesthemyogafixatedontheego,ongrowingstatusandstatureofself.(Jesal)Andofcoursethebody.(Tejal)ShewasliterallytheOGGwynethPaltrow.(Jesal)YeahImeanifyouguysdon'tknowthis:thisiskindofhilariouslyentertainingandsadatthesametime.GwynethPaltrowrecentlycreditedherselfforbringingyogatotheWest.SowehavethisgreatpostofYogaGlosayingIndraDevibroughtyogatotheWestandGwynethPaltrowmadethiscomment–(Tejal)ItwasaquotefromDecember2018WallStreetJournalarticlewhereshesaysdirectly,"Forgivemeifthiscomesoutwrong,butwhenIwenttodoayogaclassinLArecentlyandthe22year-oldgirlbehindthecounterwaslike‘Haveyou


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everdoneyogabefore?’IliterallyturnedtomyfriendandIwaslike,‘YouhavethisjobbecauseI'vedoneyogabefore.’"(Jesal)Ugh.(Tejal)Micdrop.(Jesal)Eyeroll.Andforthoseofyouwhodon'tknow,therewasalotofpeopledoingyogabeforeGwynethPaltrow.Tonameafewyogis,SwamiVivekanandahadbroughtyogatotheWest.ParamahansahadbroughtyogatotheWest.EvenotherwhitepeoplelikePierreBernardhadbroughtyogatotheWest-andbeforeIndraDeviforthatmatter.(Tejal)It'sfrustratingtosaytheleast.Wetalkabouterasinglineageorwefeelthatlineageisbeingerased.AndthenevenwithintheDesicommunity,thewomanImentionedontheWestCoastfeelsthatherlineagesaregrowingextinctbecauseoftheonesthatwe'vedecidedtobuyinto.TheIyengarlineage.TheKrishnamacharyalineage.TheHathaYogaSivanandalineage.Partofwhywe'reherewherewearenowalsohastodowithbigbusinessandadvertising.ImeanwepokefunofwomenwearingLululemonandotherexpensiveathleteleisurebrands.Butthesebrandsandtheirstorieshaveaveryrealinfluenceintheindustryideal.(Jesal)Yeahso…mostofthesecompanieswhetheryouknowitnot,arerunbymenwhoareprofitingoffofthislike,whitewomenculture.Andwhetheryouknowitornot,mostwhitewomenareculturallytrainedtohavealotofinsecuritiesandifyoudon't,it'salmostlikeyou'refullofyourself.


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(Tejal)We'regonnalinkanarticlefromTheHuffingtonPostcalled"MurderatLululemon:Yoga'sHeartofDarkness."This.ArticleIs.Fire.OnethingIwantedtohighlightiswhatJesaljustpointedouttome,thenameLululemon.Canyoutalkaboutthatname?(Jesal)Ohyeahsoit'saracistname.ThepersonwhostartedLululemon,thefounder,hepickedanamethathadalotofL'sinitbecausehethoughtitwasfunnythatJapanesepeoplecouldn'treallypronouncetheconsonantL.(Tejal)That'sadickmove.Andhealsoisquotedassaying“Well,atleastpoorpeopleinChinacanhavesomethingtoworkonnow”-intermsofmakingtheirclothes.(Jesal)OhGod.(Tejal)SoLululemonambassadorsit'stimetolookunderthematandcheckoutthemonsterslivingthere.(Jesal)Yeah.Soit'snotaprobleminitofitsselfthatthesecompaniesarerunbymen.Butthey'rerunbyreally,reallyterriblemen.Andifyoudon'tknowanythingabouttheathleisure,ortheretailindustryforthatmatter,letmeclueyouinalittlebit.Youmightbewondering,like,whydon'tathleisurebrandsmakeclothesthatfittheaverageAmericanwoman?SotheaverageAmericanwomanrightnowinthiscountryisasize16andtherelotsofbrandslikeLululemon,likeSweatyBettyIbelieve,thatdon'tmakeaboveacertainsize.Theydefinitelydon'tmakeasize16andyoumightbethinking,“Well,isn'tthatbadforbusiness?”(Together)Yes!Itis!


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(Jesal)Thethingis,thesepeopledon'tcarebecausealltheycareaboutisexploitingwomen'sinsecuritiestokeepthepatriarchalsystemgoing.Andthepeopleontheboard-Youwouldthinklike,okay,theboardofdirectors-eveniftheCEOorthedesignerdoesn'tcare-maybethedesignercomesfromthislikefashionbackgroundandjustwantstomake“beautifulclothes”thatfitunderthiscouture-likeideal-youmightthinktheboardofdirectorscares.Wellactually,alotoftheseboardofdirectorsalsocomefromthatsamebackground.Theydon'thavealotofbusinesssensenecessarilyandso,again,theyjustwannaupholdthestatusquo,whichisoppressivetowomen.(Tejal)Andculturallybiasedtowardswhitewomen!Ifyou'remaintainingstatusquo,you'relookingatprecedenceandresearch.Ifyourresearchhasmajoritywhitewomenandtheirshoppingtrends,theirculturalhabits,theireatingandfitnessandactivehabits,thenyou'renotlookingatthegrowingmarketofpeopleofcolor,womenofcolorandwhatthey'reinterestedininthewellnessworld.Andyouknowwhat?Bigtipbusinesses:you'remissingoutonmarketshare!(Jesal)Imeanthesmartbusinessesareactuallyexpandingtheirsizeranges.You'llnoticelikeevenbigcompanieslikeJ.Crewrecentlyexpandedtheirsizingbecausetheyrealizedtheyweren'tdoingwellfinanciallyandthey’reamassmarketbrand,sotheybettermake--(Tejal)Yeah,NikejustlaunchedayogalineandtheygotXXXL.(Jesal)Yeahbecauseagain,they'reamassmarketbrand.Ifyou'reamassmarketbrandyoubettermakeclothesforthemasses.(Tejal)Alsoifyou'reabrandthatpromotespro-athletes,theyarenotyoursizefourindividuals.Soyoushouldactuallybehighlightingwho'smakingyoumoneyforyourbrand.(Jesal)Yeap.Anyway,sothesebrandsarealsocallingtheshotsbyprovidingopportunitieswheretherearefew.Sointheyogaspace,there'salwaysthisideaof


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scarcity.There'snotthatmanyopportunities.Andsowhenbrandsofferthingslikeambassadorshipsthey'resettingthestandardforwhatayogishouldlooklikeandmostofthesecompaniesagain,arehiringthin,able-bodied,hyperflexiblewomen.Andthenthisiswhothey'reshowcasingontheiradvertisingaswell.SoIthinkthisimageofwhowegetastheyogateacherthesedays,inthisdayandage,isacombinationofpeoplelikeIndraDevi,peoplelikeGwynethPaltrow,andbigbrandsbasicallydictatingwhothemarketthinksshouldbeayogateacher.(Tejal)Ontheadvertisingpiecewe'vegotonlinepublicationsandprintjournalsthatarealsogivingusidealsofwhatyogashouldlooklikeandnotincludingmuchdiversity.(Jesal)Soinallofthisit'sthebigonethatwehaven'ttalkedaboutYogaJournal.OhmyGod.(Tejal)Yeap,howmanypeoplelisteninghavecanceledtheirsubscription?(Jesal)OrhowmanypeoplelisteninghavenoideathatYogaJournal'sabigpartofwhitewashingyoga?(Tejal)TalkabouterasingSouthAsianroots.TalkaboutdiminishingdiversityandPOCwhilealsogivingthespeechthatyouwannahighlightdiversityandPOC.MaybeyouknowJessamynStanley?JessamynStanleytalksaboutbodypositivity,accessibilityinyogaanddoingwhatevertheFyouwantwhilepracticingyouryogaandYogaJournaldecidedtofeatureheronacover,which,sadly,wasabigaccomplishment.Shoulditbeabigdealthatablack,queer,fem,bodypositive,womanisonthecoverofayogajournalmagazine?No.Butisit?Yes!Becauseweareliterallyinthedeserttryingtofindanyoasisofmorepeopleofcolorandrepresentation.Butwhattheyendedupdoingwashavingamagazinewithheronthecoverandalsohavinganothercover.(Jesal)Theysplitthecoverbecausetheycouldn'tjustfeatureher.


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(Tejal)Sodidtheonecoverhavetwoimages?OrdidtheypublishaJessamynStanleycoverandthenthefounderofYogaWorksontheothercover?Yes.Andyes.Theydidallofthosethings.Soyoumight'vegottenexcitedlearningaboutJessamynStanleybeingonyourYogaJournalcover,butthenwhenyouwenttothemailyoulookedatheranditwasn'ther.Orshewassharingitwithanotherperson.BothwomenhavealotofaccomplishmentsintheyogaworldintheWestbutwasthereaneedtodothat?Absolutelynot.Absolutelynot.Ifyouwannatakeariskasamediacompany-whichisn'treallyarisk,it'stherightmove-andhighlightandupliftapersonofcoloronyourcoverthatdoesyogaanddoesitunabashedlyandunapologeticallythereisnoneedtobufferwithanothercover.Andtheyheardit.Theygotamouthfulfromsocialmediaandtheyresponded.Andyouknowwhat?Theystilllostalotofreadership.They'restillworkinghardtodobetter.Theymightsaytheyshowcaseddiversitybutwe'veyettoseeit.(Jesal)AndImean,thisisnotthefirsttimethey'rebeingcriticizedforwhitewashing.Backin2008theHinduAmericanFoundationlaunchedaTakeBackYogacampaign.Andinit,theywrotealettertoYogaJournalaskingthemwhytheydon'tusewordslike“hindu”or“upanishads”or“gita”or“ancientyoga”andrarelyeverreferbacktoanyofthosetypesoforiginaltexts.Andtheirresponsewas“Becauseitcarriestoomuchbaggage.”ImeanwhetherornotyouagreewiththeHinduAmericanFoundation,that'slikeashityreasontobasicallysaywellwe'rewhitewashingthisbecausewedon'twannadealwiththebaggagethatcomeswithreligion.Meanwhileignoringthefactthattonsofyogateacherarebringingtheirownreligiousbaggagetothepractice.Justbecauseyoudon'tbelieveinthejudeo-christianmythologyanymoredoesn'tmeanthatit'scompletelywipedfromwhoyouareasapersonandwhatyoubringtothispractice.Sothere'salotofbaggagetherewhetheryoulikeitornot.Andfunnyincidentthathappenedinthetaxirideovertothisrecordingstudio,Tejalwastellingmeaboutaphraseherboyfriendusesright?(Tejal)Mm-hmm.(Jesal)Whatwasthephrasethatheuses?


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(Tejal)Sometimes,whenhe'sreallyhotandsweaty,hesays,“I'msweatinglikeahookerinchurch.”(Jesal)RightandsoImadeacommentlike,“Ohcatholicbackground.”Andshewastellingme“Well,he'snotreligious.”AndI'mlike“Oh,buttheupbringingisstillthere.”SotakeitbacktoYogaJournal,Imeanforthoseofyouwhoaregonnadoyourownresearch,seriouslyscrolltheirInstagramIthinkI'vecalleditoutonmyInstagramafewtimeswhereifyouscrolldownthere'slikehardlyasinglepersonthatisn'twhiteandthin.AndIknowthey'vebeentryingtodobetterlatelybutreallygobackintheweedsbecauseforsolongit'sallbeenaboutwhiteyoga.(Tejal)Ithinkawaytodobetteristokeepthisconversationgoing.ThereisastatisticIheardthatsaidyouonly3%ofapopulationtostarttalkingaboutsomethingforittochangetheconversation.Sopleasedonotjustshutupandyoga,speakupandyoga.(Jesal)Andthatwasafunnylittlecallbackbecausethere'sanotheronlinemagazineouttherecalled"ShutUpAndYoga."Whichactually,IhavetosayIlovetheworkthatthey'redoingingeneral,speciallywhenitcomestoscience-backedmovement.I'mreallyintoit.(Tejal)Yeahandtheyhaveanice,sarcasticvoiceandapithybenttosomeoftheirposts.(Jesal)AndI'msuretheladiesaresuperlovely.Buttheyrecentlyputoutalistof19YogaTeacherstoWatchin2019andallbutonewerewhite,SotheyreceivedalotofcriticismintheircommentswhentheystartedpostingitonInstagram.Andhowdotheyreact,Tejal?(Tejal)Defensively.Theyactuallyrespondedandsaid,“Ohifthisisaproblemforyou,whydon'tyoudotheworkandcreatealist.Andsooneofourallies@feral_and_true-


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(Jesal)That'sherInstagramhandle.(Tejal)-decidedtodotheworkandrecruitedJesalinthisprocess.Soyoumighthavenoticedsomepeoplegettingnominatedforadifferenttypeoflist.(Jesal)Yeahsowe'reputtingtogetheralistof...specificallywomenforthislist,infuturemaybeonethatincludesmen,butspecificallywomenofcolor.Keepaneyeoutonthatandit'llbeonmyInstagramifyouguysfollowmeon@yogawalla,Sowe'vetalkedalotaboutthenegativestuffandtheproblems,butwewannaendthisepisodeonapositivenote,becauseweknowalotofyououttherewhoarelisteningreallywanttodobetter.Weknowthatyou'reinterestedinbeingabetterallytowomenofcolor,topeopleofcolorandespeciallyintheyogaworldwhereit'sallaboutmindfulness.(Tejal)Sowhataboutthewhitewomenwhoaretryinghardtobeonourside.Whatcantheydoandwhatmistakescantheyavoid?(Jesal)Welllet'sstartwithlikesomegeneralrulesthatanybodycando.Andthefirstoneisnottospeakonbehalfofpeople.Sothishappensalot.Weseealwayslike,“WellI'mjustcomingtothedefensiveof..”orsomebodytryingtodefendawholegroupthattheydon'tnecessarilybelongto.Andit'saniceintentionbut,attheendoftheday,you'restillmaintainingyourpowerbyspeakingforsomebody.Soifyou'regonnaspeakup,passthemicontosomebodyfromthegroupthatyou'retalkingabout.Soifyou'retalkingaboutblackyogisorIndianyogisorwhoeveritisyou'redefendinginvitethosepeopleintotheconversation.(Tejal)Yeah,yousaidit.It'saniceintention,butwhatistheimpactofwhatyou'redoing?Youaresilencingotherpeople.DonotcontinuetotakeawayPOCvoices.(Jesal)Yeahandattheendoftheday,like,youhavetorealizeasmuchasyoumighthavegoodintentionsyourimpactisthethingthatmatters.


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(Tejal)Whenyou'readdressinginclusivity,havepeopleofcolorintheorganization,havepeopleofcolorintheconversations.Thatsimple.(Jesal)Theotherreallybiggeneraltipforeverybody-Ithinkallofus-wecantakeawayisifwe'rebeingcriticizedinawaythatwedon'tlikeorthatwedisagreewithyouneedtotakeapauseintheconversation.Sitwithitforseveraldays,sitwiththediscomfort,sitwiththefeelingofdisagreement.Andifyou'recaughtinamomentwheresomebody'sconfrontingyouinthemoment,it'saperfectlyacceptableresponsetosay,“Ihearyou.Ineedamomenttocollectmythoughtsonthis.Letmegetbacktoyouinacoupleofdays.”That'sacompletelyacceptableresponse.InthesituationwhereTejalwastalkingabouthername,itwould'vebeencompletelyfineifthatleadteacher,insteadoftryingtodefendherpositionormakingitabouthername,hadjustsaid,“Youknow,Idon'tknowhowtoprocessthisright.now.Letmethinkaboutitandthenlet'sscheduleatimetotalklater.”(Tejal)“AndIvaluewhatyou'resayingsoIwantyoutofeelheard.”It'snotthathardguys.Don'timmediatelygetdefensiveandreact.Don'timmediatelytrytocalmthewaters.It'sokayifthingsgetalittlechoppy.Conflictisokayandwecanhavetheconversations.Agreeingtodisagreeisactuallydoingtheyoga.(Jesal)Rightandanothergreattipissomethingthatshouldbe-kindofgowithoutsayingintheyogaworld:justtogetinquisitive,askmorequestions.(Tejal)Askquestionsifyoudon'tunderstandorifyoudon'tagreeinsteadoftakingastand.Youcansay,“Well,whydoyoufeelthatway?”Speakwithhumility.Don'tworrysomuchaboutsoundingorlookinglikeanassorsomebodywhodoesn'tknowthingsbecauseweareallstudents.(Jesal)Anddon'tworryaboutbeingright.It'snotaboutbeingright.'Causeifyou'reright,thatmeanssomeoneelseiswrongandeverybodylosesinthatsituation.


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(Tejal)Goingbacktointentvs.impact,don'tsayyouhadgoodintentionsasawaytodefendyourself.That'sthedefenseofpsychopathsandnarcissists.Goodforyouthatyouhadgoodintentions,butitdoesn'treallymatterifyourgoodintentionscauserealharmandhadanegativeimpactonothers.Knowthatyouremotionalattachmentfuelsyourresponse.Themomentyourecognizeyouremotionalabouttheissueortheconversation,pause.(Jesal)Takeabreath.(Tejal)Andtheneitherstartuptheconversationagainorreschedule.Listen,appreciateandapologizefortheunintendedimpact.Andlikewementionedinthisepisode,whitewomentendtobedefensiveandtrytobackthemselvesfromhearinganyfeedbackorpersonalimpactfromapersonofcolor.Thisisbeentrueforusandwe'veheardfrommanyofyouthatit'sbeentrueforyou.(Jesal)Shareyourstorieswithusifyou'reapersonofcolor.We'dlovetohearfromyou.(Tejal)Sogoingfurtherintotheweedswhatdoesitmeantobeanallyifyou'reawhitestudioandyogabusinessowner?(Jesal)Hiremorepeopleofcolor,period.Makesurethey'reonyourschedule,inyourtrainings,inyourworkshops,atthefrontdeskandallfacetsofyourbusiness.(Tejal)Ifyoucan'tfindpeopleofcolor,ifyouthink“oh,it'sjustnotwholiveshere,”theyareoutthereandwearehappytogiveyousomeresources.Contactusatyogaisdeadpodcast@gmail.com.


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(Jesal)We'rehappytodothelegworkforyou.(Tejal)AndtheninvitethosePOCtodospecialworkshopsandgivetalksontheirexperienceintheindustryortheirpointofviewwhenteachingyoga.Especiallytopicslikephilosophy,mantra,Sanskrit,gods,goddesses,andotherHinduaspectsofyoga.(Jesal)Makesureyouhavedesireferralsforyourtrainings.AndwhatdoImeanby“desi,”Tejal?(Tejal)Likewementionedearlier,thoseofthesouthAsiandiaspora.PeopleofthecountriestraditionallyPakistan,IndiaandBangladeshbutitcanincludemorewithinthatsouthAsianregion.(Jesal)Nepal,Bhutan,allofthose.So,basically,ifhaveawhitepersonwhoistrainingstudents,makesureyoujusthave-atleastinyourresources-listedmaybeinthebackofyourpamphletorwhateveryou'regiving,theresourcesyou'regivingyourstudents,justmakesureyouhavesomedesireferralstheresothatpeoplecangolookforthemselvesandseewhatotherpeoplehavetosayaboutthetopic.(Tejal)Andgodeeperintobreakingthemold.Maybehaveitinthefrontpagejustsay-“Hey,werecognizethistrainingisgivenbyallwhitepeople.We'realliesbutifyouwannadomoreresearchandgetmorefeedbackhere'salistofPOCthatwerespectandadmireandthatyoucancontact.”(Jesal)Anotherthingyogacandoisgivediscountstopeopleofcolorforyourtrainingsandworkshops.(Tejal)Simple.


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(Jesal)Verysimple.Thisisanicewaytodrawsomepeoplein.(Tejal)Askyournon-whiteclientelespecificallywhatyoucandotomakethespacemoreinclusiveandmorecomfortableforthem.Itcouldbeaslittleaschangingupyourmusicstyle.Itcouldbeaslittleassayinghellowhenpeoplewalkin,ifthat'snotyourcustom.(Jesal)Itcanalsojustbeemailingthecustomer,client,whoever,afterclass,andjustaskingfortheirfeedback-generalfeedbackform.Whatdidyouthink?Wasthisclassconformable?Wasitculturallysensitive?(Tejal)Iwannaaddsomethingonthat-it'sreallygreattogivepeopleanout.Imentionedthingslikeemotionallaborandemotionaltoilandeffort.Ifyou'reconstantlyaskingyourpeopleofcolorcommunitytodoextraworkforyou,givethemanout.Say,“ifyoudon'twannarespond,ifyou'vegotalotinyourplate,I'dlovetohearfromyou,butit'salsomorethanokayforyounottorespondrightnow.”Becauserecognizethatyouareaskingpeopletododoubletheworkforyoujusttomakethemfeelokayinyourspace.(Jesal)Andthere'splentyofresourcesouttherealreadyaswellbutit'snicejusttoask.Youcanalsouseyoursocialmediatoreachouttomorepeopleofcolor.SoIknowsometimeswethink,“well,they'renotcomingtomyclasses,Idon'tknowwheretheyare.Idon'tknowwheretolook.”Butsocialmediaisagreatplacetostartlookingforpeopleofcolortodrawintoyourstudiooryourbusiness.(Tejal)Yeah,youknowhowitgoes.Youfollowonepersonofcolorthatyouadmireandrespect,you'regonnagetsuggestionsfortenmore.Usethatfeature.(Jesal)Providemorementorshipandmenteeshipoptionstoyourteachersofcolor.


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(Tejal)Plainandsimple.Trainthepeopleyouwannaseeinthepractices.(Jesal)Andallowthemtoalsotrainotherpeople.They'lldrawinthosepeopleofcolorforyou.(Tejal)Whenchantingorplayingchantsinyourstudio,atopicwedidn'treallytouchinthispodcast,surveythestudentsanonymously-similartoyes/noadjustmentcardsaboutgettingphysicalinyourpractice.(Jesal)Yeahthat'sagreatsuggestion.AndlikewesaidearlierinrelationtoTejal’sstory,maketheefforttointroduceyourteachersofcolorbysayingtheirnamecorrectly.That'sanice,easy,low-hangingfruitthingyoucando.(Tejal)Again,don'tleaveitallonthepersonofcoloreverysingletimetodothatwork.(Jesal)Youhavetopaypeoplefairly,Don'taskthatteachersorprospectivestudentsroutinelyworkfree.Imeananybodyinthisindustryisstruggling,letalonepeopleofcolor.Andsometimesit'sjustnotfinanciallyfeasible.Soifyou'relookingtodrawpeopleintoyourstudioofadiverserange,notjustpeopleofcolor,LGBTQ,whoeveraskingthemtoworkforfreeisagreatwaytodrivethemaway.Soifyouareageneralyogateacherandnotabusinessowner,notastudioownerwehavesomespecifictipsforyouaswell.(Tejal)Sohowtobeanallyasayogateacher.Justthetypicalyogateacherrunningaround,tryingtogetasmanyclassesandexposureasyoucanandexperienceasyoucan.


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(Jesal)Imeanthefirstonerightofthebatis,don'tavoidpeopleofcolor,eitherstudentsorotherteachers,justbecauseyoucan'tpronouncetheirnames.Keepasking,Makeanextraefforttogetitright.(Tejal)AskPOCforfeedbackattheendofyourclassesespeciallywhenitcomestosensitivetopics:philosophy,mantra,Sanskrit,god,goddessesandotherHinduaspects.Imightberepeatingmyself,butit'simportantbecausethisconversationisn'tbroughtupenoughandweneedtokeephearingthesesuggestions.(Jesal)Gooutofyourwaytofindaclassfilledwithallormostlynon-whitepeopleandgotakethatclass.Asateacher,beastudentinthatclass.Noticehowitfeels.Thissuggestion-I'mbasingitoffofactuallyapostfromthiswonderfullady,ImaniGandy,herInstagramhandleis@angryblackladyandoneofthethingsshesaysisputyourselfinanon-whitespaceandnoticeifitmakesyoufeeluncomfortable.Ifitmakesyouscared.Doesjustthethoughtofitmakeyouuncomfortableandifsowhy?Yougottadothatdeepdigging,thatdeepwork.Thisistheyoga.(Tejal)Askyourselfthosequestions.Whyyoudon'thavemorecolleaguesofcolor.Askyourbosses.Askwhyyoudon'thavemorestudentsofcolor?Whatcanyoudotochangethat?We'vealreadymentionedalltheresources.We'vegivenyouguysusasresources.(Jesal)Sohere'ssomemoreideas.Youcanco-leadworkshopsandtrainingswithpeopleofcolor.Taketrainingswithpeopleofcolorandaskthemwhattheydototailorthespacetomakeitmorecomfortabletotheiraudience.Asayogateacher,awhiteyogateacher,you'vegottobethestudentfirstinaspacewhereapersonofcolorisleadingthespace.(Tejal)Don'tbetemptedtospeakonbehalfofPOC.Insteadpassthespeakingpartontothesestudentsandteachersandthenbackthemup.(Jesal)Andthenanothergreatexerciseistoexplorewhereyouhaveprivilege.Ibringthisupbecausealotoftimes,wethinkaboutprivilegeasjustlikeonefaceted.


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Wethinkwell,youknow,ImightbewhitebutIgrewuppoororIdidn'thavetheeducationalbackgroundorwhateveritmightbe.(Tejal)Andwesticktothatidea.Evenaswegetmoreandmoreexperienceandexposure.(Jesal)Thereareresourcesouttheretohelpyouexplorewhereyouhavetheprivilegeifyou'renotsure,andwe'llprovidesomeintheshownotes.(Tejal)SoJesaldidwhitewomenkillyoga?(Jesal)Yes…andno.Imeanattheendoftheday,whitewomenwhoexcludewhodoallthesethingswhoaredefensive,whoactinthewaysthatwe'vementionedaredefinitelykillingyoga.Dideverywhitewomankillyoga?Ofcoursenot,that'sastereotype.(Tejal)Andcanyou,asawhitewoman,stopkillingyoga?Yesifyoucontinuetodotheoppositeofwhatwejusttalkedaboutandbeanally.(Jesal)Soletisknow,didwhitewomenkillyoga?HitusuponourInstagramhandle@[email protected](Tejal)Andasalwayspleasesupportthisworkbysubscribingandbybecomingapatron.Patronsgetexclusivememberonlycontentlikeextravideos,liveconversations,MissYogaisDeadstickersandthangs.Youcansignupforaslittleastwodollarspermonthandthebenefitsfilledfromthere.Checkoutwww.patron.com/yogaisdeadpodcast.


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(Jesal)Thanksforlistening,I'mJesal.(Tejal)AndI'mTejal.(Jesal)AndcatchusnexttimeonYogaisDead.

Episode 1: White Women Killed Yoga

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Transcript of Episode 1: White Women Killed Yoga