development advisory committee minutes - Harford County ...

DEVELOPMENT ADVISORY COMMITTEE MINUTES

The Development Advisory Committee (DAC) met on April 15, 2015 at 9:00 a.m. in the County Council Chambers, 212 South Bond Street, Bel Air, Maryland. The meeting was chaired by Moe Davenport, Department of Planning and Zoning.

The following members were in attendance:

Moe Davenport Department of Planning & Zoning Robin Wales Department of Emergency Services Len Walinski Health Department Darryl Ivins DPW Water & Sewer Mike Rist DPW Engineering Bill Snyder Volunteer Fire & EMS Patrick Jones Soil Conservation District Rich Zeller State Highway Administration

Also in attendance were:

Allen Lloyd Arthur Benser Bev Jones Bev Webster

Brian Napfel C. Nicole Rosenzweig Camilla Rogers Cathy Grossarth Christine Carter Christy Lewis Clarence Harris Dan Lamchuck Dan O’Neill Debbi Yonce Debbie Button Dennis Yonce Diane Niemeyer Donald Harris Donald Raff Doug Webster Dr. Edna Hirsch Dr. Rosenback Drew McAuliffe Ed Steere Ed Webster Edward Buser Eugene Schmid

Fallston Group LLC Fred Ford

Gene Umbarger Greg Isbill Jack Call Jack Swinehart

James DeAngelis Jason Rosenzweig Jay Rail Jean Cullinan Jerry Hudgens Joan Lozinak

Joe Brotman Joel Eissinger John Gessner John Gonzalez John Scarborough

John Swinehart John Zimmer Joseph Carter Joseph Delaney Joyce Weddle Judy Blackburn Karen Hundermark Kathleen Delaney Kathy Carter Kevin Barnaba Kristin Carven Lawrence Mecael Lee Linda Peterson Lisa Limberger Lisa Miller Lorie Zimmer Lou Schaffer Louise Umbarger Margaret Scarborough Mark Calvin Martha Ford

Mary Buser Mary Call Mary Hatter

Michael Leaf Michele Lamka Mike Lozinak Mike Miller Mr. Blozinak Mr. Worsham NA Sayre Nancy Lamchuck Nick Honzouris Nina Mecael Pam Osteria Patricia Marks Patrick Wright Philip Crocker Phoebe Jones Durst Priscilla Eissinger Richard Jones Rob Manns Robert Holneck Robert Marks Robert Peterson Socorro Lindado Stan Bliden Steve Wampler Steven Christy

Susan Brand Susan Sapp Tasha Warsh Tom Carter Veronica Stillers

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38

Also in attendance: Vince Maranto Worley Umbarger

Moe Davenport, of the Department of Planning and Zoning, welcomed everyone to the

meeting. He explained there were two plans on the agenda. Mr. Davenport explained that a brief presentation will be given by the consultant for the project. The DAC members will give their comments on the project. The meeting will then be opened up for anyone in attendance that may have questions or comments. If anyone has questions that are not answered, there are information request forms that can be filled out and submitted to the Department of Planning and Zoning and they will be responded to in writing. There is an attendance sheet for everyone to sign. If a correct address is given, a copy of the minutes will be mailed or e-mailed. The minutes will also be published to the Department of Planning and Zoning’s website. The first project on the agenda is Ravens Woods the 2nd project will be The Regent at Stone House.

RAVENS WOODS Located on the northwest corner of Philadelphia Rd (Route 7) & Van Bibber Road; west of Veterans Memorial Highway (Route 24). Tax Map 61; Parcel 185. First Election District, Council District A; Planner Jennifer Plan No. P15-018 Create 27 residential townhouse lots; 6.468 acres; R2. Received 3/17/15 Glenn & Lynn Wittstadt/Bob Ward Companies/FWA.

Lou Schaffer, with Fred Ward & Associates presented the project for Ravens Woods: He is the project manager for the project. This is Mr. Schaffer’s presentation. The property is located at 1407 Van Bibber Road at the Rt 7 intersection on roughly six and a half acres, R2 conventional land adjustment criteria since there are so many environmental features on the project, wetlands, forests, open area of steep slope, so they have chosen to minimize the development, make it compact, they have no environmental impacts, no wetland impacts, they are retaining over half of the trees on the site, they have submitted a forest delineation which has been approved, they have submitted a forest conservation plan and a landscape plan which is under review at the current time. The plan access to the project off of Van Bibber Road which at one point was a State Highway. It is now a county road but he was not quite sure who has ownership over the right of way if it is the State or the county. The project is proposing 27 townhouses, they are allowed by a density perspective 29 units, they are providing 17 off street parking spaces, and two parking spaces per unit. They are trying to minimize the amount of concrete or asphalt in the front yard by providing a single wide driveway with access to a garage. The whole idea these days with the State Mandate on stormwater management is to limit the impervious area on these sites and provide more green area and that is their intent to sort of help that along. 20% of the entire site is impervious so that means that 80% is remaining in a wooded or natural state. There are 4.7 acres of forest and they are going to clear 2.1 acres. He recognizes that he will need to go through the full development

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 process of construction drawings, the concept storm water management plan has been submitted and he will now take comments from DAC members Volunteer Fire and EMS – Bill Snyder No comment. Emergency Operations – Robin Wales The proposed road has been approved and locked in. Ravens Woods has been addressed in the 2500 block Championship Way. These addresses will work if approved by planning and zoning and displayed properly. Soil Conservation District – Patrick Jones Concept SWM plans have been submitted and reviewed. An adequate sediment and erosion control plan needs to be approved before a grading permit can be issued. The sediment and erosion control plan must be integrated with the SWM strategy at the design phase. The new 2011 Maryland Standard and Specification for Soil Erosion and Sediment Control must be utilized. They recommend, as per the new 2011 Maryland Standards and Specifications for Soil Erosion and Sediment Control, that the Tier II watershed buffers are utilized for this site. If any proposed Storm Water Management Facility meets the Small Pond Standard (practice 378), the pond design will have to be approved by the Harford SCD. Also the pond design must be approved prior to the sediment control plan being signed. Outfall location will be reviewed during design reviews and must safely convey over steep slopes. A NOI permit is required from MDE when a project disturbs more than 1 acre. Please contact MDE about the NOI permit process. Mr. Jones handed Mr. Schafer information pertaining to the fee system for the review of sediment and erosion control plans. The fee will be collected prior to the review of the site development plan. Please contact Bill Tharpe, 410.838.6181 x3, with questions about this information. Harford County Health Department – Len Walinski The Harford County Health Department has extended its approval for the above-referenced site plan. The site is located on the northwest corner of Philadelphia Road (MD Route 7) and Van Bibber Road, west of Veterans Memorial Highway (MD Route 24). This plan proposed to create 27 residential townhouse lots from an existing parcel. The site is improved with a dwelling and is services by public water and sewer.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Prior to final plat approval, the following are required:

1. Any buildings listed to be razed will require a demolition permit that is secured through the Department of Planning and Zoning. All aspects of the demolition work must be reviewed, approved, and completed to the satisfaction of the Health Department. This includes but is not limited to the abandonment of any wells and septic systems, the management of asbestos, hazardous materials, and solid wastes, and the removal of underground storage tanks. All documentation concerning the demolition work must be forwarded to this office. If there are any questions concerning the demolition work, please contact Mr. Joe Delizia or Mr. Rich Gordon of the Health Department’s Air/Waste Division. They can be reached at 410.877.2335 or 410.877.2326.

2. The owner/developer is reminded that during the development of this project when soil moisture conditions are low, measures must be implemented to prevent the generation of dust until a permanent vegetative cover is established and all paving is completed.

3. The Health Department recommends that the owner/developer disclose to any prospective purchaser the close proximity of the property to the Edgewood Area of the Aberdeen Proving Ground (APG). Information on current and past activities can be obtained from the Public Information Office at APG by calling 1.800.APG.9998.

The final plat must bear the standard owner’s statement and the master plan conformance statement. DPW Water and Sewer – Darryl Ivins The following comments shall be included as conditions of preliminary plan approval for the above-described project: The sewer line located at the southernmost entrance to the site shall connect into the existing manhole on Van Bibber Road. This same sewer main shall be extended further east to provide better access to the sewer by Lots 9 and 10. If the existing house on the northwest corner of the property is to be abandoned, the water and sewer services must be abandoned at the mains in accordance with standard County procedures. Including these services, there is a total of three existing sewer services and one water service that must be abandoned. This work shall be completed as part of the utility work and shown on the construction drawings. The proposed water main shall be connected to the existing main in Van Bibber Road in two locations to form a looped system. The water meter vaults and the sewer cleanouts for the end units must be shifted so that they are not located in the driveways. Double water services will not be allowed for this development.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 A drainage and utility easement shall be placed across the front of each lot. It shall extend back to two feet behind the sidewalk. The meter vaults and cleanouts shall be placed behind the sidewalks as shown on the standard water and sewer service detail. It is the responsibility of the developer to coordinate with the home builder to insure that all sewer cleanouts that are located within driveways have a lamphole frame and cover installed over them as identified in the water and sewer construction drawings. The contract numbers for this project are 19806 for water and 19807 for sewer. The numbers shall be placed on the utility construction drawings before their initial submittal to the county for review. When the water and sewer construction drawings are approved for the townhomes in this subdivision, they will be approved for only the building footprint and driveway locations shown on this plan. The architectural drawings and driveway layout shall be provided to the Division of Water and Sewer if requested. Any revisions to the shape of the building footprint will require that the utility drawings be revised to show the new configuration of the unit. Additionally, if a group or block of buildings is shifted, revised construction drawings must be approved for the change. The Developer hereby agrees to relocate at his expense any services that are incorrectly placed within a driveway or sidewalks. DPW Highways and Stormwater Management – Mike Rist, P.E. The following comments are offered by the Division of Highways & Stormwater Management on the subdivision plan submitted: New Series Required – NO Project – Ravens Woods P15-018

1. A sediment control plan and a grading permit will be required for the development of this site. Sediment controls are to be designed to the specifications as set forth in the Maryland Standards for Erosion and Sediment Control, latest edition.

2. A stormwater management concept plan has been submitted for review and must be approved prior to preliminary play approval. Comments must be addressed on subsequent stormwater plan submittals.

3. The final stormwater management plan shall be approved prior to the issuance of a grading permit. A stormwater management permit is required prior to the issuance of a building permit.

4. Maintenance of the stormwater management facility (facilities) is (are) the responsibility of the lot owner(s) and shall be stipulated in the association documents.

5. Sidewalk handicap ramps shall be constructed at the entrance.


6. Sidewalks and/or a pedestrian path shall be constructed along the property frontage. 7. A utility permit will be required for the construction of the water and sewer lines within the

Van Bibber Road right-of-way. 8. Road plans will need to be approved and a Public Works Agreement will need to be

executed prior to the issuance of building permits for the site. 9. A 30’ right-of-way dedication is required along Van Bibber Road.

State Highway Administration – Rich Zeller Thank you for the opportunity to review the preliminary plan submittal for the Ravens Woods residential development proposing to create 27 residential townhouse lots on 6.468 acres; R2. The State Highway Administration (SHA) offers the following:

• The SHA has no comment regarding the proposed access to this site as it will be to a county road.

• An access permit will be required to construct widening along the entire property frontage to provide a 6’ bicycle compatible shoulder on MD 7. The design engineer should utilize the following links when preparing the permit plans.

1. The Access Management Division Plan Review Checklist needs to be utilized in drafting the SHA improvement plans. The checklist can be accessed at www.roads.maryland.gov by selecting the Business Center drop down menu and Permits and Miss Utility Information, Access Permits, Commercial/Industrial/Residential Subdivision Access Permit, Plan Submittal Checklist. Please include a copy of the completed checklist with each submittal. The checklist can also be accessed directly at http://www.roads.maryland.gov/ohd2/Plan-check-list.pdf

2. The SHA Access Manual can be accessed at www.roads.maryland.gov by selecting the Business Center drop down menu and Permits and Miss Utility Information, Access Permits, Commercial/Industrial/Residential Subdivision Access Permit, State Highway Access Manual. The policy can also be accessed directly at http://www.roads.maryland.gov/Index.aspx?PageID=393.

3. The SHA Business Standards and Specifications, which include many of the standards, specifications, and other information that projects should follow for the plans, related to a development and access permit project design and construction. This information can be accessed directly at http://www.roads.maryland.gov/Indes.aspx?PageID=689&d=5

4. The SHA Bicycle Policy and Design Guidelines can be accessed at www.roads.maryland.gov by selecting the Business Center drop down menu and Business Standards and Specification, Bicycle Policy and Design Guidelines. The policy can also be accessed directly at http://www.roads.maryland.gov/OHD2/Bike_Policy_Design_Guide.pdf


• This preliminary plan proposed dedication of the property frontage on MD 7 to the State

Highway Administration (SHA). The SHA required that any right-of-way or easement donation (dedication) be platted to SHA standards. These standards may be found at http://www.roads.maryland.gov; - Business Center; - Surveyors Center; then follow the link to Developer Donation Plat Standards. Please contact Ms. Jane Heming, Chief, Records & Research Section, Office of Real Estate at 410.545.8958 or [email protected] for existing right-of-way information. Note that any plats produced for the SHA shall be on NAD83//91 datum. Please contact Mr. Bill Carroll, Geodetic Engineer, Plats and Surveys Division (PSD) at 410.545.8958 or [email protected] for SHA-GPS control location and information. All plats must be submitted in hard copy format for review, checking and final issuance. All subdivision plate that will be showing donated area must be approved by PSD prior to recordation at the County level. All plat submissions shall come through the Access Management Division directly to Mr. Steven Foster, attention of Mr. Richard Zeller. Please contact Mr. Jeff Bonnerwith, Assistant Division Chief, Plats and Surveys Division at 410.545.8950 or [email protected] for additional information about the Donation Plat review process. Additionally, contact Mr. Lee Lambert, Chief, District 4 Right-of-Way at 410.229.2401 or [email protected] for information about the Donation Deed requirements and procedures.

The SHA formatted plat must be completed prior to the issuance of the residential access permit. The deed must be finalized prior to the release of that access permit/surety. The SHA requests that the county withhold approval of the building permit until the residential access permit has been obtained. The SHA has no objection to preliminary plan approval subject to the property owner meeting the above requirements for access permit, and SHA plat/deed preparation. When the design engineer is prepared to make the plat submittal for SHA review, two (2) copies of the plat must be submitted directly to Mr. Steven D. Foster, Chief/Development Manager of the Access Management Division, to the attention of Mr. Richard Zeller. Please utilize the above SHA tracking number when making this submission. Seven (7) sets of design plans reflecting the above frontage improvement in accordance with the design documents provided above, and a CD containing the plans and supporting documentation in PDF format must be submitted directly to Mr. Steven Foster to the attention of Mr. Richard Zeller. Please reference the SHA tracking number on future submissions. Please keep in mind that you can view the reviewer and project status via SHA Access Management Division web page at http://www.roads.maryland.gov/pages/amd.aspx

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 If there are any questions, please contact Mr. Richard Zeller at 410.545.5598 or toll free (in Maryland only) at 1.800.876.4742 x5598 or by email [email protected] Department of Parks & Recreation – Moe Davenport for Paul Magness This plan proposes a 27-unit townhouse development on a 6.468-acre parcel. The zoning for the property is R2 Conventional to R2 Conventional with Open Space, utilizing the development adjustment. The open space requirement for the project is .646 acres with.323 acres of active open space. The plan proposes .25 acres of the active open space requirement in a Natural Resource District buffer, as well as, a portion of a proposed trail. The active open space plan as submitted is not acceptable and will need to be revised. Harford County Public Schools – Moe Davenport for Mary Ann Howell The attendance areas for Ravens Woods would be: William Paca/Old Post Road Elementary School Edgewood Middle School Edgewood High School Department of Planning & Zoning – Moe Davenport for Jennifer Wilson, Planner

1. The property is zoned R2 and utilizes conventional with open space and the NRD adjustment for the development of 27 townhomes.

2. The active open space may not be located within the NRD and must be reconfigured. 3. The sidewalks must be extended along the entire property frontage on Philadelphia Road

and Van Bibber Road. 4. All existing structures shall be removed as part of this development. 5. The plan must provide at least 10’ of open space between the road right-of-way and the

rear lot line of Lots 19-23 6. This site is within a Tier II watershed. Impervious surfaces and forest clearing should be

limited to the maximum extent practicable, and stormwater management facilities should be designed to maximize infiltration rates.

7. The Forest Conservation Plan cannot be approved at this time. The plan shall be revised to be consistent with the approved Forest Stand Delineation. All areas of existing bamboo must be removed and the areas should be monitored until all areas are free of bamboo. A waiver request must be submitted for review regarding the proposed specimen tree removal. The request should include specimen trees 13, 14 & 15 which may be severely damaged during removal of the bamboo.


8. The Landscape Plan cannot be approved at this time. The proposed redbuds must be replaced with a large trees species, or the street tree calculation must be revised to credit them at 1 per 30’ of interior road. A buffer must be provided between Championship Way and the adjacent Parcel 481. Additional buffering must be provided between Lots 1-10 and Philadelphia Road, as well as Lots 19-27 and Championship Way.

9. Additional frontage improvements may be required by the Department of Public Works. Public Comments: Cathy Grossarth - who lives at the corner of Roth Road & Van Bibber stated this property proposal is directly across the street from her. The current drainage ditch runs right along her property line and the road crosses under Roth Road into her neighbors’ yard and winds its way through his yard. The neighbor actually has a bridge in his backyard over the ditch to get to his storage shed. As it is now, when they get even a minimal rainfall that ditch has a strong flow through it. Not only that, but not even a ¼ mile down Philadelphia Road at Edgewood every time you have a moderate rain it floods. And, the railroad overpass is flooded. Van Bibber Road is barely a 2 way street and the developer is proposing at least another 50 cars coming out into it. And the way they make it look on the plat it’s a good spance. You’re talking if you are lucky, less than ¼ mile. They are a community, of small to medium size ranch style homes and they are proposing townhomes and the developer is totally going to change the aesthetic of their community. The fiasco that was designed at that corner of 24/924 and Philadelphia Rd will only get worse because you are lucky in the morning if you can get out of your own street to get to work on time. So, she is strongly opposed to this, she wished she was more organized like the other group here this morning but she does plan to start walking the community and organizing. So, that is her comment and one other thing is they mentioned the schools. She does not have children in the schools but her understanding is these schools are already over populated and they want to introduce more. We have to stop this somewhere. Nina Mecael - her parents own the property and she is reading a statement for Lawrence and Joan Mecael that have lived in their home for over 30 years at 1507 Van Bibber Road. Their house will actually be right next to the 27 proposed townhouses. They wanted to thank Harford County for the meeting and for listening to the community’s concerns. This development has a negative and direct impact for this community and for the homes and family’s that live there. Her Dad recently saw a show called American Greed and he feels this speaks volumes about this proposal. On this proposed six acres only chickens can be kept. On Friday, April 3rd her Dad saw an article in The Aegis pertaining to a family who wished to raise chickens on their property. He discovered to his amazement that they have to have a minimum of two acres to keep two chickens. One needs two

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 acres to keep two chickens but this plan proposes that 108 people can reside on 6 acres. So by accepting this proposal we can accept that 36 people can reside on one acre of land or one chick. This begs to ask the question, what will the lot sizes be in cubic feet for each home? What exactly is the definition of a single family home? And, how many homes must be available to the unfortunate low income person? Please picture if you will a street that currently handles 10 families now overwhelmed with a 300% increase of people and traffic. Not to mention the burden of water, sewer and utilities. Can you picture approximately 108 residents at 8 in the morning exiting on a single street to go to work? Twenty seven townhouses occupied with an average family would equal 108 people on a six acre lot. Let’s try to be sensible about this. His suggestion would be. Why not build single family homes as you built on the other side of Route 7? You will not destroy a long standing neighborhood where residents have lived over 20 years of their lives. You would not put as many homes and people on 6 acres that currently equals an entire neighborhood. Keep the consistent. Keep Van Bibber the way it is. And, while he is talking about Van Bibber heritage she said a few more things. The Van Bibber family settled in the new world in the 1680’s. George L. Van Bibber was a noted ancestor in which this location was named. His life, residence of Bel Air, graduated from the University of Virginia and was an architect and draftsman for Edgewood Arsenal. He was active in the Harford County Historical Society, also serving with the Bicentennial Commission. He designed the seal of Harford County, the town seal for Bel Air, Aberdeen and Havre de Grace. So her last question to the developer would be; why change the name of the proposed area here to Ravens Woods? Ladies and Gentlemen of the Development Advisory Committee the name does no longer belong here than any of these townhouses. Both destroy the heritage of Van Bibber and the community. James DeAngeles – He lives at 2301 Shannon Road next to the BGE Substation. Thanks to everyone that has spoken so far. He’d like to expand upon the issue with stormwater drainage; his property is one of the last ones in the loop. His property is constantly wet which he understood when he bought the property. But he cannot see any additional stormwater flow onto his property as being even remotely acceptable. Additionally, Route 7 is already overloaded, Edgewood Road is already overloaded, and you have Lakeside Business Park directly across from Shannon Road. They have the Rt 24 intersection up at Rt 7. It is near impossible to get into or out of their neighborhood between the hours of 7:00 am to 10:00 am and from 3:00 pm to 6:00 pm because of traffic that already exists. He moved from White Marsh on the Rt 7 corridor out to this neighborhood because this neighborhood is a lot like the neighborhood he had to leave prior to the development at White Marsh Mall. He remembers White Marsh Mall being built; his back yard was a quarry and a field. It did not bother him until Campbell Blvd was established. That neighborhood became borderline unlivable because of the dramatic increase in traffic, dramatic increase of transients passing through and the resulting crime that actually came because of it. He chose to leave that area and come to Edgewood because this was a small, relatively secluded neighborhood. He accepted the issues of traffic at the time but he cannot see any further impact on

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Rt 7 and Edgewood Roads as far as development goes. Again, he said if there must be development in the area, single family homes only. Anything more than that would be extremely detrimental to the current traffic situation not to mention once the Wawa was built on Rt 152 and Rt 7 the number of accidents that have increased at the intersection because of the lack of a no U-Turn. He can see the exact same things happening at Rt 7 and Rt 24, Rt 7 and Edgewood Road, people trying to circumvent traffic signals, trying to go in and out of an already heavily traveled area. To him the plan is simply unacceptable. Doug Webster - his wife’s family has owned property on Philadelphia Road across the street from the proposed project for over 60 years. He just built a home on some of that property less than a year ago. He has a lot of concern about the water runoff. He had Bob Ward construct his home on the highest point on the property in that area. He still has an unresolved problem with basically a swamp around the exterior of his home because they could not figure out from the highest point on the property how to get the water to run off his property. He has a single family home, small project, he has no confidence and there are many others in the same ball-park, that believe Bob Ward can’t solve the water run off problem in that area. There is a lot of concern about traffic. When he built his home State Highway came out and they had a very long conversation with Mr. Webster about his driveway entrance onto Route 7. He is one house away from the corner on Van Bibber Road. Was he too close to the light at Rt 7 and Rt 24? One house, one entrance. He understands and rightfully so that they put the entrance and exit of this project onto a county road instead of a state road. Has there been any state highway traffic impact plans completed? Moe Davenport – State highway is part of the committee and they are reviewing that part of the plan. Rich Zeller – The property proposes 27 lots that access a county road. Doug Webster - But it impacts a state highway road Rich Zeller - It does. Doug Webster - You can’t get off that county road without getting on a state highway. Rich Zeller - There are two other outlets from Van Bibber that can be utilized. Mr. Zeller said his position for state highway, 27 houses does not reach the threshold of the state requiring a traffic study for this project so they reviewed from the county process and there was no traffic study required. They review the plan as it appears just like everyone else. They do what they can.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Doug Webster - The people are just trying to get out of their neighborhood and he is trying to get out of his driveway. Again, building his house going in he knew what the traffic density was and people are actually very polite and let him in and out of his driveway. But, the traffic is backed up way past his driveway during work hours. The other issue he has is that this area is R2 zoned. If you start going through the zoning code which is sort of looks like a federal tax code. In R2 zoning, you can have townhouses but he thought they limited them to four blocks of townhomes and they are proposing a block of eight. Eight, two blocks of five, two blocks of seven. This project does not fit the zoning code, it does not fit the community, and it does not fit anything in the general area. He lives in an established single family home community and has been there for sixty some years. There is no place for townhomes. Do they have a price point on what these townhomes are going to sell for? Lou Schaffer – No, Mr. Schaffer did not know. Doug Webster – So the developer went into a plan where they have no idea what they are going to sell them for? Someone knows. This is a well-established area and community. There is no need for this type of project. There are other things that can be done with the property that would be acceptable to the community. This project is not it. Single family homes could be put there. He does not see where anyone would have any objection to them. Single homes would not create excessive traffic or population and it would fit right into the existing community. For those reasons, he believes that this project should not be permitted. Steve Wampler – a 57 year resident of Roth Road, he is a recently retired Chesapeake Bay coordinator for Aberdeen Proving Ground. He has many questions and he will submit the questions because he would like a written response. The Taylor property currently has a stormwater swale running through this property that was addressed, that there is a bridge built across it. There is extreme scour occurring on this property right now, on the stream banks due to run off coming from a totally forested area. They are going to lose two to two and a half acres of woods on this site. If they go with a typical stormwater pond and drainage swale, they are going to increase one of the most critical things that affect the Chesapeake Bay which is increased concentrated flow. He asked a question that under the new requirements for MD stormwater and sediment control and the environmental site design. Are they going to be looking at different methods to infiltrate water here on this site such as rain gardens or other things to slow the flow? Lou Schaffer – It is part of the stormwater management requirements so, yes. Steve Wampler – So rain gardens will be included.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Lou Schaffer – He does not know if it will be rain gardens or they may propose micro bio retention, micro swales as well as tenure management. Steve Wampler – For the past 33 years as Mr. Wampler drove to work and approached the intersection at Rt 7 and Van Bibber Roads, he told us that three to four cars right now before the increase in traffic will take you at least 10 to 15 minutes to get out of that intersection in the morning. He has been there many a day waiting for traffic. Anytime there is an accident on I-95 which is occurring more and more frequently there is total gridlock as traffic is getting off of 95 onto MD Rt 755 and Van Bibber Road. And, it is an hour’s long wait on these roads and Route 40 as the traffic bypasses 95 blockages to go north or south. That is a very big concern of his. He’d like to defer to Harford County Fire. He understands that these townhomes are going to be two to three story housing. He said he has worked very closely his entire life with Abingdon Fire Company. It is going to be extremely difficult under emergency circumstances to get fire equipment into this area. Right now a ladder truck and a car could not pass on Van Bibber Road. Recently the county in a very good faith effort came in and tried to control stormwater. They came into the Roth and Green Road areas and attempted to rectify the problem. They did it by underground piping. The county attempted to do some milling on Roth Road and after they started to do some milling they found out the surface of the road was about an inch thick. That is the base of the road in these neighborhoods. If fire equipment or other emergency vehicles had to access these roads from Roth, Green or Sharon Roads it would be detrimental. There are numerous places where two vehicles cannot pass. It is virtually impossible. That would propose to him a risk for the new proposed community as well. He understands that the developer has submitted a forest conservation plan and it appears that the developer will be breaking or exceeding the 40,000 square foot threshold for forest loss. So that is turn is going to either require the developer to pay into the bank or to plant trees. He believes this development will proceed ahead. The people in the community would ask that any buffer that is planted on this site buffer Van Bibber Road and would assist the developers housing if buffer was planted on the backside to quiet the traffic noise which is coming off of Rt 24, which is excessive. He would ask as a community that the buffer mitigation be done on site and not paid into the bank. Lou Schaffer - That is proposed. Steve Wampler asked Mr. Schaffer, they know this is not a critical area but since Harford County is one of the seventeen counties that touch the bay, coastal zone management applies to the entire county. Where was the coastal zone measured from on this site? Lou Schaffer – It’s measured from the edge of the Bush River.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Steve Wampler - Bush River. He would contend that the Winters Run Stream is tidal up to Edgewood Road. So that measurement would probably be incorrect and that measurement would need to be looked at again. Do you know if there are any unique factors for species in the Winters Run Watershed? Lou Schaffer - Mr. Schaffer did not recall. Steve Wampler – Mr. Wampler said there is. During his career he built a fish ladder on the Van Bibber Water Treatment Plant, and they were managing for two species in need of concern, the blue back herring, elwys and blue back are species that are in need of conservation. The project will be increasing flow to this drainage to the watershed shed in the area and he said the water supply for APG has been greatly hampered by the sediment load that has come from the northern reaches of this county down Winters Run and areas behind the dam. Where Aberdeen Proving Ground gets it water from was once were 25 and 30 feet deep. Now it is 6 to 12 inches deep due to sediment load in Winters Run. Pretty soon our species that are in need of conversation that were passing over the dam with the fish ladder are not going to be able to even survive the environment. He will be talking to MDE. If the project goes with the standard stormwater management pond and increase flow, scour is going to occur here. Regarding wetlands on the property, he has grown up on this property and caught many frogs and fish there as a kid. How were the wetlands determined on this site? Lou Schaffer - They used an environmental scientist to go out and delineate as well as MDE and the Army Corps of Engineers have been out along with the county to confirm. Doug Webster – His last and final question, he would like to know how many proposed units will be Section 8 housing? Lou Schaffer - As far as he knows it is all fair market value. There is no set aside required here. Doug Webster – He believes that federal law requires that a certain number of houses be available to Section 8 housing. Lou Schaffer - It is a requirement for fair market value which is different than Section 8 housing. Doug Webster – He would like more information on that question as the project moves along. Lou Schaffer – Mr. Schaffer said Mr. Webster can research HUD and the HUD Requirements. There is no federal funding here so that would not apply.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Mr. Thompson – He lives right at the corner of Van Bibber and Rt 7. His house was originally the post-office for Van Bibber back in the 20’s. He has water that runs from his front yard into the two sump pumps in his basement and out his back yard. He does not truly have a basement he has a cellar area that he can go down to. He used to have his heating system down there. He can stand in his front yard four days after it rains, put a chair in his front yard, he is 315 pounds so he weighs more than a normal person and he can get that chair to touch the ground, getting the legs of that chair that deep in. And this is directly across from where the woods are and where the water runs. On the corner if you watch when it rains, even when it rains a little bit you can watch the water flow right over that storm drain and onto his property. Not to mention the traffic, he can sit in his bedroom and listen to every car stereo and every engine all day long. His front porch sits right on Rt 7. 27 more cars starting in the morning at a minimum is going to be something. He will probably need to sound proof the front of his house just to sleep. Judy Blackburn – Her concern for these townhomes moving into their development is increased crime, young juvenile delinquents and traffic. Her neighborhood has evolved over the last 60 years; her family was one of the first ones to move into the development. The community has been safe and uneventful all of these years. Her concern is increased traffic coming through her neighborhood. Their neighborhood sits in the middle of Harford County’s main arteries for example 24/7 and Edgewood Road plus 95. The noise from increased traffic in their development will infringe on the many families that have lived there peacefully for sixty years. The impact of the townhomes in their development would be like taking a Wal Mart and putting it in our neighborhood. It is a big impact. Don Harris – He would like to speak for his father Clarence Harrison who is right across the street at 1502. He said he guesses there were just a limited number of certified letters that were sent out to just the folks on Van Bibber Road, not the whole community. Moe Davenport – The letters were sent to property owners adjacent to the proposed property. Don Harris – He is opposed to the project and as the gentlemen said there are two other access routes other than Rt 7 to get out of there with Snow Road and Roth Road. He does not know if the county has been in the area lately but Snow Road is in really bad shape. Only one car can get through there at a time. With everyone trying to get out of there on those two little roads, you have children out there and the new homes will create a mess. He is opposed to the project.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Beverly Webster – Their home was built by Bob Ward, great house, love it. Bob Ward picked the flattest land exactly where the house was going to be and they have a mote around their house. In the winter time, the deer cannot even stand up outside her house. It looks like Bambi on the ice. It is ridiculous. Her dogs go out the back door; they go two feet and need to start treading water. They literally have to doggie paddle. She said she personally had Bob Ward come over to her house to see it. They walked around the back of her house and Bob Ward lost a shoe in her back yard which only had a small amount of water. There are people on Van Bibber Road where the run-off is so bad because the property is level and then it drops and it continues to drop off in the back the way Bob Ward designed it. She grew up in that area and played on the property when her grandmother first built her home at 2507. The runoff has actually uncovered where her grandparents had their stone and fence on Van Bibber Road. She does not agree with the fact that Mr. Schaffer does not know what the value of those townhomes are. She knows better. Mr. Schaffer – He said he is an engineer not a salesperson. Beverly Webster – It took her two and a half years to get her house built with Bob Ward. She had one problem, after another problem, after another problem. Then on top of that, they got mold from the water runoff. The whole basement filled up with mold and the whole house had to be completely professionally cleaned from the water. They finally called their own professional and he told them it would cost $25 to $35 thousand dollars to fix. She said she sent that information to Bob Ward and he said he had his own people that would take care of the problem. They said at the time that all of the drywall and the existing stud work would need to be taken out half way up the wall in the basement. When Bob Ward’s people came in they had to gut the basement, which at that time was a finished basement. This was a big ordeal and a three month process. What she fears most with those townhouses is how much worse can the water runoff get. Traffic will also be a problem and there may be other alternatives such as Roth and Snow Roads but then eventually all traffic will feed to Rt 7 or Emmorton Road. Every road will be impacted by the townhomes. The other thing that worries her is no one will say what the townhomes are going to cost. She knows they know what it will cost per square foot. She does not know if the homes will be Section 8 or not but the schools are title one schools. Perfect spot for Section 8. Arthur Benser – 1213 Van Bibber Road. He is pleased with everyone that has spoken out against this project and amazed because the signs were always coming down. He put them up numerous times. Traffic road frontage is only about 400 feet from the right of way from Rt 7 to the end. Adding traffic to that area of Van Bibber is not practical. Rush hour traffic in the morning and evening along Van Bibber is horrible. Add an accident on 95 and the traffic trying to get to Rt 7 is a parking lot. Traffic is an issue. Stormwater drainage is a concern. We all know what flows downhill and he is downhill from all of the proposed property. His property is always wet as it is. Anytime it rains the water pours down from his backyard and his driveway for a day. Water is still

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 flowing a day later. So, stormwater management really is a problem, not to mention the traffic. He believes there was not enough notification to the community. How long are the signs supposed to be up before a meeting? Moe Davenport – They have to be posted two weeks prior and if the signs should come down please give our office a call and we will make every attempt to put them back up. Arthur Benser - The signs were down more than they were up and it does not smell right to him. When the signs were posted they were initially posted looking into the woods. He does not believe that there are many people come out of the woods to read a sign. Maybe the muskrats and the deer read the signs. He has been in the community for 40 years and knows the neighbors well, Rt 7, and the history of Rt 7, it was a Colonial Road/Old Philadelphia used to be just a horse and carriage road. It is a very narrow road and to try and funnel in that much more traffic and the same with Van Bibber Road. They are both very narrow and overcrowded and it is just not safe to permit more traffic on those roads. Mr. Jones - Jones Family Farm – Rt 7. He believes that Harford County is pro-development so he knows this project will go through. There are 2 active places water accumulates. There is the tunnel on Edgewood Road, it’s the ditch going to Winters Run, and the county will not let the state highway touch the ditch by Winters Run due to environmental impact to Winters Run. There is a sewer line that goes next to Winters Run and the state can’t clear the ditch there because it goes across a county water line. The state highway guy knows, the ditch is a problem; they can’t clear the ditch so it floods Rt 7 and the ditch along Edgewood Road cannot handle any more water. He put a little berm to hold it in but it is not going to handle it anymore. He brought this up to Bob Ward when he built the 52 homes. Where do the the deer go, they go on my farm and eat and they go onto everyone’s yards. There is never a study at any of the DAC meetings on where do the deer go? He would also like a study on all of the water going through the tunnel and towards Winters Run, because his farm is there. In regards to HUD housing, if they do put in HUD housing, there are no sidewalks on Edgewood Road and Rt 7 for people to walk on. Right now they go through the tunnel and through his farm and scare him in the middle of the night. There is no room for his area to handle any more water. When it rains the ditches are full. He does believe for the record that the townhouses will go ahead. Steve Wampler – This neighborhood Van Bibber Manor as it is called is one of the best kept secrets in Harford County. In his past 57 years there he can number on one hand the numbers of crimes in his neighborhood. It is a great place where people want to move to, it is an older well established community and they want to keep it that way. There has been quite a bit of substance abuse on the property and deceased bodies have been found on the property. That concerns him very much as well. He would like to defer to state highways and ask them to go back to their local

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 district and look at the flooding at the B&O underpass. Any significant amount of rain county and state highways have to come out and put out signs because of the flooding problem and at times he has seen it totally impassable. And, that is without any additional flow coming from new development. So, if you can look at those numbers and talk to those people he would appreciate that information as well. Cathy Grossarth - She would like to make two more comments. When you are talking about coming in and out on Van Bibber. Very quickly people are going to learn the little streets thru our community. The DAC committee needs to get out of their offices and drive out and look at their neighborhood. Because they will soon learn all of our little streets and before you know it we will have people going 50 mph while our children are standing on the corner waiting for busses. Her second comment is she hopes the county does not just stamp this with an approval. She hopes the county is listening to the people and that we will act on their behalf and not just hands over permission. Nina Mecael – Is this meeting considered a community input meeting? Moe Davenport – No Mam Nina Mecael – So when there is a community input meeting is this like a Wednesday morning at 9:00 am when the average is working. Are the additional meetings going to be held at 6 or 8 pm or weekdays so that the rest of the neighborhood who is unaware will be able to input their feelings? Moe Davenport - There will not be a community input meeting because this development does not meet the threshold of generating 250 trips. That is the criteria in which developments are required. Nina Mecael – Wait a second, so all of the other people who lived in this community for 60 years who could not read the signs that kept coming down will never know. Lady in Audience – My next door neighbor did not get a notice because apparently they do not live adjacent to the proposal. Nina Mecael – Wait a minute the people on Snow and Roth Roads this impacts them tremendously. These are little tiny roads with little tiny houses where people have lived for over 50 years. That makes no sense. Moe Davenport – That is the threshold mam, he did not make the threshold it is 250 trips a day.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Nina Mecael – So how many trips will they have? Moe Davenport – He did not know he was guessing about 190 to 210. Lawrence Mecael – He saw a tractor trailer come into the area and try and turn around. The roads are so small it was nearly impossible. The roads were not made for it. Are you going to build new roads? Moe Davenport – The developer will have to improve their frontages. Arthur Benser – 27 homes, how many children does that equate to and how will that affect the school attendance in the area? Moe Davenport – He could not tell him exactly but there is a pupil yield factor for townhomes 1.275 children per elementary, middle & high schools. We do not know exactly but we have a general idea. Those schools are under the capacity for adequate public facility (APF) which would deny approval for any projects that are above the rating capacity for those schools. Those schools are below the capacity at this time. So there is no moratorium on development within those school districts. Arthur Benser – How much below the rate of capacity are they? Moe Davenport – He does not know that information but there are no schools in Harford County above 105% total rating capacity and their enrollment is dropping. Arthur Benser - Something to consider if the school is already near capacity what will 27 homes impact on the school. Moe Davenport – We do consider the impact on the schools. James DeAngeles – He said the county mentioned a community association being responsible for some of the property. How is that going to impact the established community? One of the reasons he purchased in this community is because there was not a HOA. He refuses to allow an HOA to come into his neighborhood. Moe Davenport – It would have no impact.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 THE REGENT AT STONE HOUSE Located on the EAST SIDE OF Glenville Road; north of Level Road (Route 155). Tax Map 42; Parcel 330, Third Election District, Council District E, Planner Jennifer. Plan No. S15-019 Commercial riding stable/Private parties & receptions; 51.453 acres; AG. Received 3/18/15 Timothy & Lisa Limberger/Landmark Science & Engineering John Gessner – He is the attorney representing the project and John Gonzalez will be presenting the project. Unlike the two community input meetings that have been held so far John Gonzalez will be the only person making the presentation. They are going to follow the by-laws and the letter of the law in regards to subdivision regulations. John will make the presentation; no one else will speak on behalf of the applicant. John will answer any questions from DAC members but unlike the community input meeting they are not going to engage in a lot of questions and answers between Mr. Gonzalez and those in attendance. Any comments from those in attendance have the right to speak and he would encourage it and are glad they are here. He just wanted to make sure everyone knew that Mr. Gonzalez will not be taking questions from the audience in this presentation, because that is not what DAC is about and it is not what the DAC statue requires. John Gonzalez – Landmark Science and Engineering and he is presenting the site plan for The Regent at Stone House. The site is located at 517 Glenville Road in Churchville. The area of the property is approximately 51.453 acres. The property is zoned AG. Agriculture District. The property is currently developed with an existing house and two garages and an out building near the two existing ponds. Proposed use is for commercial riding stables and receptions. The proposed building is going to be a 4,035 sq. ft. building with stalls on the lower floor and a reception facility on the upper floor. The proposed parking will consist of 56 spaces including 4 handicap parking spaces. The property will be served by a well and septic system. Access to the facility will be off Glenville Road and not off of Oak Farm Road. Site lighting for the property would be some lighting placed around the circular drive and a lighting plan has been submitted to the planning & zoning department for review. The site is also going to have a 20,000 gallon water underground storage tank as part of the fire suppression system. Stormwater management for the development will be addressed utilizing environmental site design practices. What they are considering are practices such as micro-bio retention facilities in and around the parking lot areas, sheet flow conservation areas below the proposed building and a stormwater management facility to manage ten year storm and they are also proposing some dry wells around the building. The stormwater management concept plan has been submitted to the Department of Public Works and is currently under review. The forest delineation for this project has been approved and a forest conservation plan along with the landscape plan is currently under review by the Harford County Planning & Zoning Department.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Volunteer Fire and EMS – Bill Snyder

1. They fully support the 20,000 gallon tank that is proposed for fire suppression. The tank’s valve equipment shall be accessible to fire department equipment 24 hour a day – citizen parking shall be prohibited from this immediate area.

2. For all new buildings or altered buildings with an automatic sprinkler system or a supervised, automatic fire detection system, a Knox Box must be installed per NFPA 1, part II, 3-6. They shall be keyed for the Level Volunteer Fire Company: 410.638.3826.

3. An access trail is recommended to be constructed for EMS units to access for both the fences field areas.

4. They recommend the usage of non-combustible landscaping directly next to the buildings. Traditional, wooden-mulch increases likelihood of nuisance fires from outdoor smoking.

Emergency Operations – Robin Wales The proposed building will be addressed as #505 Glenville Road. This address will work if available, displayed properly and approved by planning and zoning. On the site plan, “Public safety wireless radio communications inside a building is essential to the safety of those occupying the structure as well as fire, law enforcement and emergency medical providers responding to a call for help. Buildings that are greater than 5,000 square feet, higher than 50 feet, contain underground storage or parking and are constructed of materials that impede wireless radio signals that may adversely affect the response of public safety providers. Please consider including wiring, electrical connections and other infrastructure that may be needed for an in-building 800 MHz amplifier. Department of Emergency Services will test coverage in your facility once construction is finished. Call 410.638.4900 for this assistance. Department of Emergency Services is requesting the building to display “10-12” address numbers and letters, or at the end of the driveway property the address must be clearly visible from Glenville Road. Emergency Services must have a list of at least 3 (three) emergency contact for notification, response, and securing purposes if the facilities are not in operation 24 hours a day. Harford Soil Conservation District – Patrick Jones Concept SWM plans have been submitted and reviewed. An adequate sediment and erosion control plan needs to be approved before a grading permit can be issued. The sediment and erosion control plan must be integrated with the SWM strategy at the

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 design phase. The new 2011 Maryland Standard and Specifications for Soil Erosion and Sediment Control must be utilized. A NOI permit is required from MDE when a project disturbs more than 1 acre. Please contact MDE about the NOI permit process. A Nutrient Management plan is required for any farm with 8 or more horses or generates more than $2,500 dollars in revenue. Attached is information pertaining to the fee system for the review of sediment and erosion control plans. Please contact Bill Tharpe, 410.838.6181 x3, with questions about this information. This fee will be collected prior to the review of the site development plan. Harford County Health Department – Len Walinski The following comments are from Julie Mackert she reviewed the plan. The Harford County Health Department (HCHD) has reviewed the above referenced site plan. The site is located on the east side of Glenville Road; north of Level Road (Route 155). The plan proposes to construct a commercial riding stable and barn for private parties and receptions. The project will be serviced by an On-site Sewage Disposal System (OSDS) and a well. At this time the plan as submitted cannot be approved. In order for the HCHD to complete its review, the following items must be completed:

1. Provide a revised written business plan. The plan must include hours and days of operation, detail on the number and types of events, maximum number of guess or attendees that are proposed in one day on this site. Also, the plan must include the number of employees for each type of event. If the projected maximum daily flow for this project meets or exceeds 5,000 gallons/day the project will be required to satisfy large-on-sire disposal system requirements Code of Maryland Regulations (COMAR) 26.04.02.05.Q.

2. The proposed well site must be revised meeting all requirements of COMAR and Harford County Code, Chapter 216. The current proposed well site is within 100 feet of the proposed septic system. A minimum separation of 100 feet between the well and all septic system components including the future Septic Reserve Areas (SRA) is required. Keep in mind, if the proposed well site is down gradient from the proposed septic area and possibly neighboring septic systems, a minimum separation of 200 feet is required between the well and any up gradient SRA


3. Additional percolation tests must be performed during the wet season to better delineate the SRA, the system parameters (trench depth and effective side wall absorption area) and to ensure adequate repair area. Percolation test hole #102 documented a water table at twelve (12) feet in August of 2014. It is reasonable to assume with water table will be more restrictive during the wet season and therefore the SRA must be re-evaluated during the wet season. Based on the test results and the project flows, sufficient SRA must be established for an initial system and a minimum of two future replacement systems for the existing uses (dwellings) and the proposed use or a total of 30,000 square feet, whichever is greater. The additional test sites must be field located by the consultant and provided on all future site plans.

Upon satisfactory completion of the above items and approval of the site plan, the following items must be completed prior to building permit approval:

1. Detail engineered plans for the initial OSDS will need to be submitted to the HCHD for review and approval. The design should be based on the anticipated maximum daily flow. The system design is required to incorporate Best Available Technology (BAT).

2. The type (classification) of water supply servicing this facility must be determined. John Resline, 410.877.2325, of the HCHD Water Quality Division will evaluate the usage for this project to determine if the system will be classified as a private water supply or a Public Water System.

3. A well is to be drilled in the approved site and the completion report submitted to the HCHD for review and approval.

4. All property involved in the sale, production or distribution of food items must submit plans to the HCHD, Consumer Protection Division, Food Program, for review and approval. Questions concerning plan submittal should be directed to Lisa Kalama at 410.877.2332.

Upon approval of the building permit, and prior to the approval of Use and Occupancy (U&O) permit, the following is required.

1. An On-Site Disposal System Permit must be issued for the approved system by the HCHD to an installer whom is qualified to install the system. The System must be installed by the Licensed Installer and the system inspected and approved by the HCHD.

2. The HCHD Consumer Protection Division Food Program must inspect the facilities for compliance with the approved construction plans.

3. The water supply must be chlorinated, sampled and a Certificate of Potability (COP) issued for the drinking water supply.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 DPW Engineering – Mike Rist P. E. The following comments are offered by the Division of Highways & Stormwater Management on the subdivision plan submitted: NEW SERIED REQUIRED – NO

1. A sediment control plan and a grading permit will be required for the development of this site. Sediment controls are to be designed to the specifications as set forth in the Maryland Standards for Erosion and Sediment Control, latest edition.

2. Stormwater management must be provided in accordance with the 2000 Design Manual as amended by Supplement 1.

3. A stormwater concept plan has been submitted for review and must be approved prior to preliminary plan approval. Comments must be addressed on subsequent stormwater plan submittals.

4. Infiltration facilities such as drywells and bioretention facilities utilizing infiltration shall be located a minimum of 100’ from a well.

5. The final stormwater management plan shall be approved prior to the issuance of a grading permit. A stormwater management permit is required prior to the issuance of a building permit.

6. A commercial access permit is required for the site. 7. The entrance width shall be 25’ with 35’ minimum curb radii. 8. All pavement striping and traffic control signs shall conform to the Manual on Uniform

Traffic Control Devices and State Highway Administration Supplement. 9. A 30’ right-of-way dedication is required along Glenville Road if the property is to be

platted. 10. A traffic impact analysis was submitted for the following intersection:

Glenville Road and MD Rte. 155

Department of Public Works Water & Sewer – Darryl Ivins No comment. State Highway Administration – Rich Zeller The State Highway Administration (SHA) offers the following:

1. The SHA has no objection to site plan approval as access is to a county road and there are no right-of-way impacts to the SHA.

2. The SHA had previously reviewed a traffic impact study (TIS) prepared for a 300 seat Banquet Hall on this site. In a response letter dated August 20, 2014 the SHA approved that study. The TIS recently submitted for this site proposes 163 seat banquet hall and 12 horse stalls on the lower level of the hall. The total traffic generated by this current


development is below the traffic generated by the 300 seat banquet hall therefore the SHA reiterates our comments of August 20, 2014 regarding the current TIS submittal.

If there are any questions, please contact Richard Zeller at 410.545.5598 or toll free (in Maryland only) at 1.800.876.4742 x5598 or by email [email protected] Harford County Parks & Recreation – Moe Davenport for Paul Magness No comment Harford County Public Schools – Moe Davenport for Mary Ann Howell No comment Department of Planning & Zoning – Moe Davenport for Jennifer Wilson, Planner

1. This project is being developed under the special development regulations for Ag Commercial projects.

2. No monumental structures are permitted within the road right-of-way. 3. We need clarification on how the maximum capacity was determined and if the 163 person

capacity includes the proposed 20 workers. 4. A Traffic Impact Analysis has been submitted and is currently being reviewed. Comments

have not been finalized at this time. 5. All proposed signage shall conform to the Sign Code and permits shall be obtained from

the Department of Planning and Zoning. No signage shall be placed within the SHA right-of-way. One way drive aisles shall be clearly delineated with appropriate signage.

6. This project is subject to the Forest Conservation Regulations. A Forest Stand Delineation has been approved. The Forest Conservation Plan cannot be approved at this time. Comments addressing the plan have been forwarded to the consultant. Once approved, Forest Retention Areas must be recorded on a boundary plat.

7. The Landscape plan cannot be approved at this time. The plan must provide foundation plantings and screening for the proposed dumpster. Per Section 267-73.B(1) of the Code, the property on which the commercial stable is located shall be buffered with a type “C” Buffer. The buffer yard may be included in the setback area. The plan must include the required landscape notes and a protective measures statement signed by the owner/developer. A cost estimate must also be submitted. Any proposed lighting must be shown on a new series and a photometric plan submitted for review. Please keep in mind that certain landscape plants are poisonous to horse, including cherry trees. You have included black cherry trees in your landscape plan and they are potentially toxic to horses.

8. On behalf of the County Historic Preservation Program, even though this property is not a County Landmark and does not have a Maryland historical easement on it, it is a significant part of the “Finney Houses National Register District.” We would recommend that any improvements to the property blend into the historical character and timeframe of the


property by using similar type, color, and style of construction material from that historical timeframe and respect important view sheds as well.

Robert Marks –Before he started Mr. Isbill asked him to read his comments which are the following: Music from a party in November at the Stone House property on a Saturday night was heard in his bedroom on Cool Branch at 10:30 pm. He anticipates that this will occur at most events held at the Stone House. If allowed to build the event center should pay commercial property taxes and tax rates regardless of the current Agriculture zoning. Robert Marks – He and his wife live at 426 Glenville Road and have lived there for the last 28 years. This hearing is to discuss a commercial riding stable and a facility for private parties and receptions. His first question is; why were these lumped together? It seems to be apples and oranges here. They have a very quiet low impact riding stable perfect for agriculture use then we have a 165 person facility for serving alcohol beverages, foods and music. He does understand why these were bundled together. The riding stables, obviously a legal, low impact use for agricultural land. However, in this case and he is sure it’s the only association with a horse it’s being used as a Trojan horse to try and get an approval for the high impact commercial venture. They are attempting to dump what is essentially B2 high impact full time commercial use into our community which is not only an outrage, it is illegal and a total misinterpretation of the original law. The law was the result of perfectly good intentions to provide farmers with some alternative income streams and options for their farms. However, the law was not clearly written. It is open to interpretation. It should have been tightened up a long time ago by the Council. In fact, it was loosened up by the Council. This proposed project clearly violates the original spirit and intent of the original piece of legislation. Our neighborhood is now under siege, threatened with the possibility of a full time commercial operation being introduced into our stable, historic, quiet and desirable community. A full time facility catering to private parties and receptions has no place in our neighborhood. It would bring with it greatly increased truck and car traffic to a narrow county road with no shoulders and a 30 mph speed limit and bring hundreds of non-neighborhood residents into our community. The serving of food and alcohol, and loud music until late at night is not compatible with the quiet environment of a residential community. He asks the DAC committee, would you please raise your hand if you would like to live next door to one of these? He sees one hand. Patrick Jones – Mr. Jones lives next door to Geneva Farms Golf Course. Robert Marks – That’s good sir. I’m going to find a developer who can put one right next to your property. Patrick Jones – Mr. Jones again said I live next door to Geneva Farms Golf Course. Robert Marks – Well God Bless you. The rest of the people in here that are wearing yellow shirts don’t seem to agree with you. So you are a minority of one. Next, there are very serious negative results from having this type of commercial use in our community. The first is an obvious impact on quality of life and the change of a long standing character of the Glenville Road area. The

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 second has more serious consequences. The negative impact on both marketability and values of our homes. For 23 years he was a residential real estate appraiser in the Baltimore area before that he was a real estate broker and agent and he also worked for a relocation company which bought and sold houses for transferred corporate employees in five states. In all of those years no purchaser ever came up to him and said Bob, I want you to find me a house close to busy road. Bob, I have to live next to a restaurant. Bob, I’ve got to find a house under high tension power lines. No, people don’t do that. People want to live in quiet, safe, healthy, stable residential area with no commercial intrusions. This plan a catering facility for parties and receptions would be such a commercial intrusion. At the present time there is no commercial use on Glenville Road. In fact from his research there has not been commercial research on Glenville Road since the old Glenville Road General Store closed down sometime around WWII. Bringing commercial use into his community would set an unacceptable precedence. Harford County Government, the Council, the Executive, planning & zoning, your job should be protecting our neighborhoods. That should be your primary interests. Protecting our neighborhoods against this kind of development not supporting it. Virtually the entire community is against this proposal. Almost 300-400 people showed up at each of the community input meetings. Look at all of these yellow shirts and here we have a meeting at a very convenient time at 9:00 am on a Wednesday. Very convenient for most people but, look how many people took time from their schedules to show up here. Drive up and down the roads in our area and you will see tons and tons of signs that say NO, NO, NO. In conclusion, I just want to take a moment and read you something from your own paperwork chapter 267 zoning part 1 standards section 3. The purpose of preservation of productive agricultural land and to give reasonable consideration among other things to the character of each district and its suitability for particular uses. With a view to conserving the value of buildings and encouraging the orderly development and the most appropriate, most appropriate use of land throughout the county, to secure safety from fire, panic and other dangers and to conserve the value of property. That is in your zoning regulations. Any project that does not meet this criteria is illegal, unenforceable, and in violation of the county’s own policies and clearly stated goals. Michael Leaf – 139 North Main Street, Bel Air, MD He is an attorney and represents dozens of people that are here today and several who are adjoining property owners. They have reviewed the documents submitted by the Limbergers and the information provided. The Limbergers have described their business on the internet and in their fact sheet as a wedding venue and a place for all types of receptions, parties, corporate events, non-profit fundraisers, debutante balls, proms and community meetings, which sounds just like a description of the Richlin Ballroom or the Water’s Edge Event Center. The Limbergers have applied for approval for this wedding venue and a new building. They also requested approval for a commercial riding stable which they claim will be the primary use of the property. They have submitted this application and have requested approval under subsections 267, 73, B1 and B2 of the code. To allow the director of planning and zoning to approve private parties and receptions and a commercial riding stable on Ag land if all uses meet the requirements of the code. His message is simple; this project does not meet the requirements of the code and cannot be approved by the planning director. What you have here is commercial development consisting of a new banquet hall, catering facility, meeting room, with a commercial parking lot, stormwater management, and a septic system to serve the commercial use. The building would have to be

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 approved for public assembly per the building code. Even the TIA refers to the use for what it is a wedding venue and banquet hall. The director must follow the letter of the law and he disagrees with the gentlemen that just spoke. He believes that the level of the law is very clear. The code section only allows the use of Ag land for private parties and receptions. It does not allow wedding venues, banquet halls or catering facilities, or event centers. Although the code in other sections specifically uses the words banquet hall and catering. Those words are not used in section 267, 73, B2. And, the term wedding venue is not used either. Again, the code only allows private parties and receptions. Many of the events listed by the Limbergers do not fit within private parties and receptions especially when you are talking about the wedding venue with grooms quarters, bride’s quarters, corporate events, community meeting and things like that. The commercial riding stable, interestingly, according to the preventive use chart requires special exception approval as well as special development approval. So, he does not see how the planning director can approve this commercial riding stable until it has received Board of Appeals approval for this special exception. So therefore, this application as presently submitted must be denied. Secondly, 267b does not allow the construction of a new building or space within a building to be used for the uses proposed by the Limbergers, again it is banquet hall it is a catering facility, it is an event center, and it is not an agricultural building. And, just because they are trying to put it on top of what they claim is going to be a stable that doesn’t make that space or that space within the building legally approvable by the director of planning. What the Limbergers can do is they can request approval to use their land and the existing building for private parties and receptions. But, the code does not allow them to build this new space as they have proposed in the site plan. Apparently, after the first CIM, the Limbergers decided or discovered that their big 80,000 square foot banquet building would not be approved as a stand-alone facility. So, they came back with new plans which now show a 12 stall stable underneath with a catering hall/banquet hall as the same use sitting on top of it. This he clearly believes is a subterfuge. To call this a barn and plan that the stalls will be used for 12 horses in disingenuous. The purpose and intended use of the space is clearly for a banquet hall, meeting center plain and simple. And quite frankly, it is questionable whether the lower level will actually be used for horses. It is hard to believe to him that anyone with stable horses under a banquet hall will run the horses out and clean, power wash and disinfect the stall area before each wedding event as described in the TIA. He has heard that prospective customers have been told that the groom’s quarters will be in the stall area. In any event the banquet hall is not permitted and the building is not permitted with or without the stables. Next, the criteria of the code have not been satisfied. The entire parcel must be zoned agricultural. The entire parcel is not assessed for agricultural use because the Limbergers removed 3 to 4 acres for the site where they want to put this building. So that was removed from agriculture use so the entire parcel does not have agricultural use assessment. And quite frankly this goes to the point that the new building is not permitted by the code. The code requires that the parcel have an agricultural use assessment. If they have an agricultural use assessment his understanding is that when this building is built the department of assessments and taxation will then remove the area of the building from the agricultural use assessment. So, they would no longer have the agricultural use assessment. Again, he feels it goes to the point that the code does not allow this new building a new commercial building to be approved under this section of the code. The code requires safe and adequate access. The only access is by Glenville Road. The TIA considered the intersection of Glenville Road & Rt 155 and the TIA was predicated on only one event per day, does not address traffic generated by anything other than the weddings, does not disclose the uses that will

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 generate traffic on weekdays, other than possibly mentioning a reception after a funeral. However, if this is going to be used for corporate events many of those start on weekday mornings and sometimes last all day. So, you might have traffic being generated during the morning peak and evening peak. The parking lot must be screened from adjoining residential use it does screen from the south or Oak Farm Road side of the property. His next point is that the code requires an accurate and complete site plan showing all buildings and uses and the exact manor as to how the property will be used and approval must be limited to what is shown on the approved site plan. He is very happy that the Health Department has asked for a detailed business plan. He believes that planning and zoning needs to have a very detailed business plan in order to identify exactly what is being proposed on this property and what the hours of operation are and things like that. For example, in addition to the mention of groom’s quarters there has been something said about bride’s quarters in the main house. This site plan does not show any use other than the parking lot and area around the new building. So, in terms of this wedding venue that they want approval for they may be trying to use other parts of the property or other buildings but they have not identified that on the site plan. In his opinion, the site plan is incomplete and must be updated to show everything and to explain how it is going to be used. Again, he does not believe it should be acceptable or approved. He just wanted to say that the application should have to say all of those things. There is also on the Facebook page a statement that The Regent at Stone House offers outdoor settings covered and uncovered. He is assuming that that means some kind of event outside of the building and he is assuming that covered/uncovered means with or without a tent. But, none of that is shown on the site plan we don’t know where that will be held or what that does in terms of capacity of this property. So, since the submission does not fully and completely describe the operation the application should be denied for that reason. Another issue is that the code must be approved by the director. This does not mean that the director is required to approve the plan what is means is that the application must receive the directors approval which is a much different thing. This is obviously the wrong use, in the wrong location which is incompatible with the neighborhood and will adversely affect the use and enjoyment of values of nearby properties and the safety of the residents. Therefore, the director has the discretion and he believes the duty to deny the approval for this use on this property. However, if the approval is granted the director should impose strict limitations on the uses and hours of operation and spell out precisely what uses are approved and what uses are not allowed. The director has the authority under section 267, 73 to impose limitations on the hours of operation. He proposes 12:00 noon to 6:00 pm Thursday through Saturday with the condition that all clean-up and removal will be completed within 1 hour after the scheduled event. The number of guests and employees should be limited to the number of parking spaces provided. Parking should not be permitted in any area outside of the parking lot. Any additional uses of the structures, improvements or changes in operations must receive approval through the director of planning after further DAC review and community input meetings. Approval is personal to the Limbergers and should not be transferrable and should terminate after the sale of the property. We ask that their condition be opposed and that there be no outdoor events, no live music. The building should be constructed with sound proof materials, doors must be closed when the music is playing and no on site or off site signs. No tents or tented events. No event customer or guest may stay on the property overnight. No more than one event per month. No cooking facilities or kitchen on the premises. No additional outdoor lighting. And at least one owner must be on the premises during all events. He does believe that this project should be denied for the reasons stated.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Karen Hundermark – Her parents live in Glenville Manor. She has been sitting there all morning listening to everything and it is really kind of irritating because she feels like they do not have a chance. She said she has been sitting there and watching the faces and reactions. She gets Harford County has a job to do. She understands that, but what really is upsetting is she is asking the committee to listen to what everyone in this room is trying to say. They don’t want this is their neighborhood; it is just a bad idea. DAC was not at the community input meeting, she understands that, she understands that we are looking at paper that is black and white. What she is asking is that the county takes into consideration these other grey areas. The traffic study that was submitted. She said that was the most bogus thing she had ever heard in her entire life. That traffic study is totally preposterous, seriously in the middle of June on a Saturday at 11:00 am in the morning. She lives on 136, which she knows is a state road, she gets that. She gets Glenville is a county road but it will dump out into some state roads. If her kids tell her they need anything from the grocery store and it is after 3:30, you are walking to the Food Lion. She will not get into the car and try to drive to Food Lion because, it is impossible to get there from her house. It would take her 20 minutes to go one way. The development is talking about bringing in party animals that want to go, go, go. And what is even more ridiculous about this is the fact that now she is hearing 163 people, when all this started it was 300 people now we are down to 163. What is stopping him from having more people in there? The whole thing is ludicrous as far as she is concerned what really bothers her more than anything is the drunk driving. She lives on 136 between Craigall and Grafton. Three weeks ago a drunk driver took out the telephone pole, again. She realizes 136 is not Glenville Road but they are going to drive home someway. The speeding has already started. She had items stolen out of her front yard. She invited the state trooper to sit in her driveway and park and catch the speeders. She understands what the presenter is saying but she lives there 24/7. This is going to impact her 365 days a year. 365 days a year and we frankly just don’t want it. The gentleman earlier was talking about Van Bibber being the best kept secret. Well that is what that area of Glenville Road is. It is quiet and serene. It is beautiful and she does not want more nasty people coming into the area. Look at how many times the Royal Farms on the corner of 22, 136, and 155 has been robbed. The development will just bring more riff raff in. She understands the county has a job to do and we are looking at black and white and money for the county because it will bring in revenue for this and that. The most ridiculous think that she has to say is the man is so into horses yet he will plant black cherry trees on his property. She is begging the county to please consider the traffic, the crime and the people. You are talking about one person’s way to make money. Go get a second job, leave our neighborhood alone. Jay Rail – He lives in Churchville. He has a different perspective, he lives on a farm, and has lived in this county his entire life and he has 20 years of experience in the hospitality/entertainment industry, doing weddings, corporate events and everything else. He has been to Swan Harbor Farms; he has been to facilities in Baltimore and Harford Counties, Pond View Farm, all of them. None of them have live animals in the same vicinity. The owners will have people get drunk and they will try to get on a horse. It is going to happen. There is no way to stop it. They say they want to have stall horses there, well one personal friend of mine and his wife has an equestrian operation. The amount of liability insurance they must have just to have a business there is ridiculous. And now an insurance company is going to come in and insure this new project but we are also going to have entertainment there with 160 people show up along with alcohol. That is

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 not going to work. It does not fit the area. He understands helping the farmers. He appreciates them. But having a facility like this; it is not Pond View Farm, they have a separate area of live animals which is a separate area with limited operations. When you go to Rockfield Manor and you want to play music you can only play in a certain direction and the volume of the music, they are constantly doing sound measurements. The Liriodendrum, you are not playing music outside the facility and they have sound measurements. They all have restrictions including the county owned Swan Harbor Farm. You will only be in there for a certain amount of time and you have a certain amount of time to clean up. Steppingstone Museum just opened their facility for the season which will be a direct competition to this venue which is developer is trying to build. Something has to be addressed and as for Glenville Road he has taken farm equipment down that road and it is little disconcerting when people come around the road at 50 mph and they realize that you are taking up about 85% of the road. Now you will be adding vehicles coming down the road along with his tractor with people leaving an event drunk. That is great that they have insurance but he has a $300,000 piece of equipment that is now down and he cannot wait for an insurance company to come and replace it. So you are adding that into the mix in an agriculture area. And, yes that area has changed from the time he was a born in this county. A lot of the houses that are now there were not there 25 years ago. They were all fields. So part of the problem that they have with traffic those houses created but the county let them be created. The county now has the opportunity to say we need to stop and reassess that this is not a good idea. Put the restrictions on it. If they really want to do it; here are the restrictions. You will then know if they really want to do it. What will drive them will be the almighty dollar. No one buys a piece of property for over 1 million dollars and thinks 5 months later that they want to put up an equestrian facility and a banquet hall. That idea had to be somewhere in the mix when they bought the property. They are just trying to find an in, and run around it. Now it is time for the DAC Committee members and the county to say stop. The plan provides parking for cars and does not provide parking for horse trailers coming in. They did not allow for a catering truck parking. They all have cooling units on them or generators units running. That is extra noise that is going to carry. He lives on Rt 22 and knows all about traffic. He has been on Glenville at times and tries to come out of Glenville onto 155 at the wrong time when you can only do 15 mph is not a good option. You throw a venue in there with people that don’t know the area; it is not a good recipe. If they use google or MapQuest. Mapquest might send you in through Level. Google might send you up 155, but they are coming from Bel Air. This is not a well thought out plan. He wishes them luck with an equestrian facility but keep it that an equestrian facility. Go to the next Bridal Show at the Richlin Ballroom and interview 50 brides; would you like to have your event over top a horse stall in August? Believe me; they are not interested in that. You tell the bride she is going to have to walk 350’ in her wedding dress from a house to a barn, she is not going to like that either. And, yes you can put a tent up because it is not a permanent structure. That’s great. But the facility only will hold 163. You can go to Chesapeake Rentals and get a tent that will hold 300 people. Now you can have 300 people in a tent and an additional 163 in the barn. They will get around the parking fine because now they will shuttle the people in with busses. Now we will have tour busses trying to get onto Glenville Road to handle an event that size. He hopes additional restrictions will be required. Ed Steere – He is a consultant with the MS Planning LLC he is working there as a planner for Mike Leaf on behalf of some of the residents in the room. His address is PO Box 935 in Aberdeen, MD. Today he will be focusing on the general design and the traffic impact analysis.

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 He heard the health department had a lot of comments about the septic and well setbacks and he will need to point out that the plan does not show any of the adjacent properties septic or wells which is required by the subdivision regulations. The trash enclosure is shown on the site plan but not on the landscaping plan and does not appear to be assessable by a truck. A typical front loading dumpster truck would not be able to access that site. Grading and drainage; the proposed stormwater management pond that is now on the plan but may change based on comments; but it is located upstream and generally between two existing wells on site shown within 20 feet of one of the wells. He imagines that should be a concern that will need to be addressed and a stormwater management plan would need to redone. The proposed ground elevation of the paddock behind the event center is shown to be approximately six feet higher than the floor elevation at the back of the center or the lower level of the center. Suggesting, that this is not really a bank barn. The grading is not complete through the area; the grading area does not show the paddock to be graded to match the building at all. The stormwater management report stated that no field sheet flow will be directed to the ESD’s but drainage area I is directed directly to the stormwater management pond and drainage area E which is the septic field is directed directly to an ESD. The landscaping plan was already mentioned by Mr. Leaf and Mr. Davenport; yes there are 16 cherry trees proposed there are also 12 arborvitae trees proposed. That species is subject to heavy deer foraging and will not work as a screen to a parking lot. It will get wiped out up to about five feet high and would be completely visible. The trash enclosure is not shown on the landscaping plan. But, section 267, 30.I requires it to not be visible from adjacent properties and public streets. Likewise, for mechanical equipment none of which were shown on this plan. We do not know where the air conditioning systems are or where the loading dock will be located. The landscaping plan refers to buffer to adjacent residential lots however the code 263-73.a and b require the screening and buffering to be provided between any parking or storage area and any public road or offsite residence. There is no screening proposed on this plan to the south facing Oak Farm Road or the folks on Glenville Road to the south-west, which will be fully visible even after the grading. The traffic impact analysis; the study was based on a wedding venue, that was agreed upon at the scoping meeting with county officials and they searched for other wedding venue’s which was pretty scarce throughout the entire country. However, it is not just a wedding venue, it is a banquet hall, an event center, very similar to other facilities in Harford County where we can collect data, such as Waters Edge Event Center, Richlin Ballroom, several county parks, Liriodendrum, Rockfield Manor, Swan Harbor, Steppingstone, Geneva Farms Golf Course, event centers like these are all on the same scale and offer the same type of events as this facility is proposing. Therefore, the traffic study should be based on the numbers at an event center, corporate meetings and banquet hall. As Mr. Leaf pointed out, corporate events/business events typically occur during the day. That is when the business community finds the most advantages of not having to pay overtime for their staff to go to conferences or meetings. Therefore, they show up individually in their cars because they come from home, they are not coming in a car pool like a family would come to a wedding. But, they are coming individually, during morning peak hours and they may leave during the evening peak hours. Or it could be an afterhour’s event such as a Chamber of Commerce would hold that starts during the afternoon. So, the traffic study only studied the weekday evening peak and the weekend peak. Ironically, they use the same traffic generation numbers for 2:00 pm on a Saturday as they did for 5:00 or 6:00 pm on a weekday. That was a complete random guess on part of the Traffic numbers. So, he believes that the traffic impact analysis fails to address the real use on the site which is corporate. There are going to be business

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 meetings, there will be daytime events as well. The impact will be greater. Likewise, as he pointed out people will come from home individually to a corporate meeting. Which brings up the question; is the parking lot adequately designed to serve this building? The way the parking lot and grading is designed, there is no way to drive off of the hard surfaces they are proposing, they have put bio-swale ditches around everything and, there would not be a place for overflow parking. That alone, with the traffic analysis being about the wrong kind of event makes him believe that the traffic study needs to be revisited. What this points out through this whole thing is that this is not an agricultural facility in any way shape or form. The code section that brought this on was designed to help the agricultural community sustain their agricultural uses on their property. This use has nothing to do with agricultural. It’s been studied nationally, there are many programs and university’s and states all around this country that are looking into how to do agri-tourism. These are some of the uses they proposed. But, there is a difference between celebratory non-agricultural events and agricultural related activities such as having their barn open during pumpkin picking season. And, selling products out of their barn, Boordy Vineyards sells wine and have wine tasting events but, that is not what is happening here. This is completely independent of farming. This has nothing to do with agriculture. This is a commercial venture that garnered commercial comments from him about a commercial site design. Donald Raff – 603 North Shamrock Road in Majors Choice, Bel Air. His step-daughter and her husband and family live directly across the street from Stone House. He would like to take about noise pollution. He was a music education major in college. He remembers a bumper sticker from the 60’s and 70’s that said “if it is too loud, you’re too old”. As he looks around that is us. He has also played in groups with amplified instruments. And, he has said, please turn it down. No one wants to hear the bass all night long. Speaking of bass how many times have we felt the bass from somebody’s car before we could hear it? Cool Branch Road which is about a half mile from this location could hear the noise from this venue into the night. When he first moved to Harford County he lived in Greenridge II. The Greenridge Swim Club; they had a couple of parties outdoors during the summer and he knew it. Sometimes it was after 11:00 pm and he could hear it. His kids did not get to sleep to well those evenings because of the boom, boom, boom. He is sure his step-daughter and her family does not want to hear the noise either. Even if the party is indoors you will still hear the boom, boom, boom. Very interesting to hear about the black cherry trees. Mr. Raff does not know anything about horses except he knows they can be very skittish. They are all talking about the benefit of the people but they say there will be a stable underneath. His first impression was when did they start deodorizing manure and would anyone want to have a party above a stable. Heck no. How about those horses? I know they have trained horses to handle guns being fired above them, and he know that race horses need to get used to the crowd noise so they aren’t spooked. What would that booming do? What stress level would that cause the horses? He does not know, but if he were a horse owner he knows he would not want to stable his horse underneath where this venue is proposed. Maybe this should not be allowed for the benefit of the animals. Certainly the noise is going to be a major impact for anyone within ½ to 1 mile of the venue because the owners are not going to be there to tell the band to turn it down, because as soon as they would leave, they would turn it right back up. He knows he works with these guys. Nick Honzouris – 1105 Glenville Road, he does not know how many people know that road but

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 he would like to speak about traffic concerns. What happens to the traffic that does not come in from the 155 side of Churchville. What about the traffic from the Level Road or Cool Branch Road side. This is his corner. In the winter time the county has trouble keeping this road safe for residences. This is a proposed year round venue; he wonders who is going to be concerned about the safety of the people traveling the roads during inclement weather. There is a turn on that road where his neighbor across the street at least once a year has folks sliding through his fence and onto his property. Cool Branch Road which is a spur off of Glenville Road which is one of three ways to the venue is a single lane, still partially dirt road. And Glenville Road at the base of his property is a one lane bridge. The traffic study at 155 may have some meaning, he does not know, he is not an engineer. But he is a resident of this road and this access is totally implausible and he believes the residents as well as the potential clients should be thought about in terms of safety. He believes this is a major safety concern which needs to be addressed. Dr. Edna Hersch – 516 Glenville Road in Churchville, MD First of all, this area is right next to the rec center which has now expanded. And, she can tell us that at this present moment there should really be a traffic light where Glenville Road meets 155. And, that is now. Near that area there is a pole that has been taken out probably maybe 10 times a year. That is her first point. Her second point is that the county does have a responsibility to the people who own land there now. She has a couple of veteran and well esteemed realtors that live in her area. They can tell you, and one of them wrote her a letter that she took to her assessment hearing that read our property values will go down. What is for sale in our neighborhood right now has stopped being looked at all together. As one of the realtors told her and she quotes “it is a dead as a nail.” And basically as someone looks at a house on Zillow or looks on red fin they think it looks very nice and the minute they realize there will be a catering facility they stop looking immediately and will not even look at the property. And that is a fact. The last thing she wants to say is even the project is called a reception facility they call it that themselves and that is what it is. This is a reception facility and this is not a permitted use. She would like to read us something; this comes from the Water Edge Event Center and this is what it says; events and special occasion banquet center, if your special event is worth commemorating, sharing and celebrating it is definitely worth having it at the Water’s Edge Event Center. Banquets, bar mitzvahs, weddings, showers, reunions, and any other parties are served well with our panoramic water views, outdoor walking areas, distinguished architecture, flexible spaces, seasoned staff, and state of the art amenities. Government, wedding reception, gala, and alumnae. And this is The Regent’s; Anniversary’s, baby showers, bar mitzvahs, birthdays, bridal showers, christenings, corporate event, debutante balls, eco-friendly green weddings, engagement parties, graduations, holiday parties, lesbian and gay by TQ weddings, ceremonies, memorials, proms, sweet sixteens, cash, check, pay pal, discover, master card, and visa. Covered outdoor/indoor, under cover outdoor, bridal showers, ceremonies, engagement parties, receptions. This was taken off of their website last night at 11:45 pm. This is not a permitted use and she hopes the county denies it. Dr. Rosenback- lives at 504 Glenville Road directly across the street from the proposed event center. At both the first and second community impact meeting a plan was described for a commercial venue for an event location. At either meeting there was not a full description of what the barn capability was, how it was situated, or what the expectations were as to how they were going to use it, how they were going to develop it, how they were going to sustain it. This is a

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 commercial venue in an agricultural and residential location. The reason why zoning exemptions are not allowed is because it puts a strain on the resources that are originally placed in that location based on the zoning that is appropriate for agriculture and residence. The plan is illegal. The owners are hoping to use the language of the law in a way it can be manipulated. It is up to the county to uphold the restrictions of those laws. In order for this commercial venue to be financially successful the owners will need to accept as many events as possible. Adding 200 cars in an average weekend day will overwhelm the infrastructure. It will create further unsafe driving conditions. Add alcohol to the mix. And you create unsafe driving condition for all families on the road. She would also like to address the noise. The owners have submitted this application under the amusement provision which as she understand it allows hours of operation to extend to mid-night. There are families with children living within 2 footballs fields of this home on two side of the property and she feels that the exemption needs limitations at a bare minimum. She does hope the county sees this project for what it is which is an attempt to circumvent restrictions and zoning exemptions by using a loop hole which is truly an illegal use of this property. Fred Ford – 500 Glenville Road He is at ground zero. He passed out a picture to the committee. At the CIM meetings they heard over and over that this issue was the Limbergers passion. He moved to Glenvillle Road, his cousin and he built his house 32 years ago. Ladies and gentlemen you just looked at my passion. I was there first. This is coming to us and it endangers us. It endangers everyone. Prior to this his daughter would have learned to drive quietly on Glenville Road on a Saturday afternoon and evening. Now she will content with a wedding, 150 cars coming and going. He bought his property from a farmer who is in attendance. He had fairly good restrictions and covenants that he asked that we put into the development of any home that was built there. Long story short all of our farmers have done this. The residents and the farmers live happily together. It looks like Disneyland most of the time. This is what he wants and needs to describe to the county. It is not just a neighborhood, it is a neighborhood that is pristine and they are proud of it. The people that sold us the land the farmers worked the land to make their living. They work it hard. You can see an Umbarger at work at 5 am and you can see another one at 10:00 pm. And, they do it all the time. The principals of this issue are not farmers. Publically, Mr. Limberger told Mr. Ford and several people that he had a contingency clause on the purchase of this property that if he was not permitted to use the property for this profit venue that he could get out of the sale. He says it is his passion. It’s his passion, and if you would have seen him chasing a horse down Glenville Road that was passion all right. It was also instructed with a whole lot of fear. Tim has admitted to us that he has little or no knowledge about these businesses he is going to be so passionate about. He would like to close with one thought. He counted the number of homes within 1/8 of a mile of their property. It was 27. If you go out ½ mile and include all of the development that would be inside of that circle you are now coming up with over 200 homes. You are affecting Roland Green, Glenville Manor, Oak Farm Road and all of the homes between Level and Churchville Roads. That is a lot of homes. He believes there is a misconception by county officials and he quotes “the people along Glenville Road are just going to have to live with it”. Well let me tell you something. Sheriff Bane came to speak to us he said that when and if this happens they will be back to ensure that the neighborhood is compliant with the law. Oh yeah, he is not Sheriff anymore is he. So what he is here to say is this law, it is morally bankrupt. Statistically 8 out of 10 people in this room come from a Judio Christian background. There are only 10 perfect laws

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 and those of us who come from that background know what those laws are. If the county passes this project what you have done is broken at least one commandment. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.” Ok, our property values are going to dump. They know it. No one denies it. The county government from the top down including the new administration seems to show no sympathy for the residents. Vince Moranto - 331 Glenville Road The fire department was talking about the 20,000 gallon tank plus in case of a fire. The 20,000 would be for the sprinkler system and additional would be for the fire trucks. He understands that. His question is if we go with this venue and they start running it as a business 5 or 6 days a week. They are tapped into our wells up and down the street. He is pretty close to them about 2 blocks away. Most of the time, when you drill a well you hit a vein of water that more than likely the one they all share on Glenville Road. So if you hit that vein of water for this new project and use our water the project will put a burden on our well supply for our whole street. Gene Umbarger – It occurred to him last night that farms today are fewer and smaller. And the farmers need to share equipment and they move equipment up and down the road all the time. There was mention of a pole along the road. He is pretty close to that pole. He remembers his wife took a pole out when she was 16 on the other side of 136 in Churchville. She was reaching for a pie. But he does not know what happened, but she took out another one just the other day while reaching for something and he almost took out the pole before her pole going up the road pulling a disk about 30 years ago. His disk just took a chip out of the pole and since then that pole has been hit by many other people. The poles are so close to the road and the farmers have large equipment and the farmers share the equipment back and forth. Corn planters, combines, spray rigs and they take up a lot of road. This is his concern that it is just not the same anymore. He understands people coming out to the country and that they want to build their homes. He sold many lots to them but then there was no ag preservation bill that would have supported him. He knew development would happen. He loves living in the country with no lights prohibiting the view of the stars in the sky. It is important that we preserve our community. It is important that the farmers be permitted to move up and down the road in a safe manor. This proposed business would need to be open a lot to survive. He has nothing against the Limbergers; they have been good neighbors to us. But, you know what; he has been a good neighbor with all of the good people here today. They help you, when you need them. This is not the place for this type of project. Tasha Warsh – Glenville Manor The only way to her house is from Glenville Road. For the past year everyone that has visited her home has asked her, what are these NO Regent Signs? And, she explains the situation to them. And, they say wow, I feel sorry for you. And, they say you are going to have a hard time selling your house if you should decide to sell it once that project goes up. And the other comments are it is really going to decrease your property value and she would say do you really think so. She asks them, if you drive down this road and see that would you want to live here. It is food for thought. She purchased her property 13 year ago which at the time was just a lot. When she first purchased the property the weeds were high and had probably been that way for at least a year. About 2 weeks after settling on the property she got a zoning violation from the county because she had

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 Johnson Weed. She did not even know what Johnson Weed was because she was raised closer to the city. But, she immediately had to hire someone to bush whack the entire property which was about two acres. She drives 3 hours each day to get to her property and home which is her life’s dream. Every one of her neighbors has a dream to live and it is to live in that neighborhood. To have a peaceful environment. Not to have a wedding venue. The sad thing about it is now she will have to drive her 3 hours to see a wedding venue every day. She keeps thinking back how come she had to get rid of the Johnson Weed that she received a zoning violation about because it was going to affect the neighborhood so badly and this wedding venue isn’t. She got rid of the Johnson Weed and she hopes we can help them get rid of this wedding venue. Jack Swinehart – 411 Glenville Road He purchased his home 32 years ago on a nice piece of property. He was originally living in Edgewood, until they put in section 8 housing and he started looking for a different place to live. He would like to explain to us what the people of Glenville Road are like. When he first moved onto Glenville Road, he was there about 8 months, and, he had an 8 month old daughter who collapsed one day. His wife was beside herself and he had to run across the street to Doctor Summerville who just happened to live there. Dr. Summerville came running over and took care of her. Today she is 29. All the his neighbors know their family. They know what goes on at 411 Glenville Road. They always see my wife walking around the driveway with my daughter in a wheelchair. They have had 3 car accidents on his property and that is with hardly any traffic. He is not sure if that is the same telephone pole Gene spoke about but there is one telephone pole right up the road from him that is near a sharp turn. He believes that telephone pole is torn down about twice a year. The road is a very narrow road. All of the telephone poles are right on the edge of the road. If you have a tractor on that road the cars cannot get by. What he believes will happen is that people will start driving their cars on the grass and lawns to get around the tractors. When you get people that have some alcohol in them they will just try to get around those tractors. Alcohol and farm equipment is going to create a problem. The venue will also bring in some undesirables and let’s just leave it at that. The neighbors get along fine on Glenville Road and he would like to keep it that way. They help each other. He lost many pine limbs over the bad winter and many neighbors offered to help remove them from his property. Glenville Road is a family community period. If we wanted to live in Glen Burnie we would move there and the same for Baltimore City. He is opposed to the project. Jerry Hudgens – Rolling Green in Churchville He can go on about the drunk drivers that are likely to come through his neighborhood when their GPS does not guide them the right way as they leave The Regent. He can go on about the noise that is going to filter down to his home below the Umbarger’s Farm. But what he wants to do is to repeat what he spelled out in his letter to the editor at The Aegis. Prior to and leading up to the first community input meeting the Limbergers were trying to sell this property as a wedding venue/party venue. They have heard all of the possible uses. The outcry was so great at the first community input meeting about this being a commercial venture on property zoned agriculture that it appears that the Limbergers decided to hire a PR firm. The PR firm did a couple of things for them. They organized some private meetings with some of the neighbors in the vicinity of the project and talked to them about what they later put into their fact sheet about the venue at The Stone House. Let’s sell this and bring in an agricultural element. Well you have a couple of

Development Advisory Committee Minutes, April 15, 2015 of 38 horses, put some stables under the barn, let’s say 12 horses there and that will satisfy the Ag part of the project. He is not worried about the horses, because as he said in his letter to the editor the story has changed from the first CIM to the second where Mr. Limberger said nothing about horses. For 15 minutes, Mr. Limberger talked about their dream about this party venue. The fact sheet was handed out at they signed into the community input meeting. They had the opportunity to read this is going to be primarily a horse riding venue. That is what they said. He is not worried over the horses because things have changed over time and they are going to find out that they cannot rent this space with horses underneath. So, what are they going to do, they are going to remove the horses and use that space for storage. He does not believe they will have to worry about property values in the area. Sure they will go down. Then what will happen. We have opened the door to commercial development. Maybe Bob Ward will want to build some houses there. Mary Call – There are school buses that travel this tiny narrow road. There are two elementary school buses and a couple of middle school and high school buses. She lives on the corner of Cool Branch and Glenville Road. She does not know how the health department is going to ok food being served and ingested over the smell of horses. They have never had crime in their area and have never had reason to call the Sheriff in 45 years. Lately, they have had the Sheriff’s number on speed dial because many of their NO Regent House signs have been stolen over and over and over. Constituent in the Audience He is a history buff and he would like to remind Harford County that it was the cooling of the earth that caused the black plague because humans were required to bring their livestock into their homes and we almost lost the human race. He is not saying this is going to come to that; he is just making a point. Who wants to eat a $20 steak on top of a horse stall? It befuddles him. Moe Davenport – He would just like to let everyone know what is going on. He represents the Director of Planning & Zoning and the committee reports to him. We have reviewed the plans and we have asked for revisions and separate plans and will be asking for a revised traffic impact study. Most of the issues the audiences have brought to our attention today we have already identified. And, the county will follow up on them. The code is there for a commercial riding stable and private venue. Obviously, you have concerns about the nature of those commercial activities, we do also. Legislation is pretty basic and does not give a whole lot of conditions and requirements for these types of venues. We will analyze all of the circumstances revolving around this project. We have asked for more detailed plans so we know what the venues exactly are and we will evaluate them with our law department and the director of planning & zoning before we come to any conclusions. Anything that is submitted to us will be available on our webpage. We have a new TRACK IT icon on the front page of our web page and will make any subsequent submissions regarding the project available there. Otherwise you can contact Moe Davenport or Jen Wilson the Planner for the project. Thank you for your attendance. There were no additional comments. Meeting adjourned at 11:47 am

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