2494 ASS EM BLY.]

initte who sat iii thle Ea'tern States deaitwith the matter, and .I hope thle Governmentwill take it upI ivith Ilhe ( niuoiru'eal th au-thorities anti introduce legislation. The -Min-ister tor' thle N.orth-West appointed aI corn-muittee to advise thle (ln'ernment regarldingthe developmenut of' that area. I hope tilei;ernment will not pigeon hole tlte report.I rn gi ad 11r. I Ta ci has askedl for it to

Ilv liltieh. llei'ently vhe Prte-'s announceed aIpro.jt for the tle\eltoplltet of -NorthernAusiralial, aId I wish to urge ipan the ov-ernmteint the netessity for ding something todi s'toip Ihe northern part of this State.01hlerwtAisP the t rade tof the N'orthern TPer-I-ittirv will he diverted to Eastern .Australia.It wv enul -,ei ~t a st berne' for tile tieveloip-

m ernt of 1 he l'iiwe kvz, ter' won Id be achanc1je of hiolding, (hat trade,

Si-hedol', put1 mtid pass;ed.

I'chedules- IK F, 10 and u, rabe rite--itee1to.

Bill rep~orted vi tinott amendmient a rit

the report adopted.

BILL-LAND AND INCOME TAXASSESSMENT ACT AMENDMENT

(No. 2.)

Second lReading.

HON. E. H. GRLAY (West) I11.52) in

mioving, the second reading said: 'rite oh.-ject ot' this short B-ill is to amend an oh-vious error ilt thep Act, rl \Ve-stern Ai--tridla. thtere are large rnmiber., of Sites,that have been dedicated to the nuildingm ofchurchcles. Whenever tI new townsnte isproclaimed, the ( overunient have muadeavailable, oil thle application of churchlauthorities, sites for churces'. it will bemiann rears before thle chutrchles are bulilt.Under the State Act the land is taxed :and4al1though the inidividutal amounts, are nmall,in the agg -regate they totalI a fairly large

su.Churches, itn ComnlU witit otherinstitiutionsg, jibid it dilficull to mecet theiro1ligations. during the present bard times.Tite Bill proil)05C5 to aimendl Subsection 1 ofSection 11) byv ins-erting ill line 13 of para-graph (e) after thle word 'occupied'' thlewords, ''or held." The Federal Act c-emnpts, 41tiph jlnd nru1lepr Section 13:, para-

gah(gi which reads-All land owned lix' or int trust for any Pier'

qonj or socity a Ijf tiseti by % tittit jierSon or'

socutv solely ar at site for (1) a place a;verSliii for- I religious societ-v or tI pi)tce oIT3ttI it~t fo'ir ni y rio rgv (1r ill mi Mtets or, otdeof a rliilis socetei.

The wvords - or held "' are ailso includedthe Road istricts Act and thle MunicilnCorporations Act. The Bill will. bring thSi ate Act into line wvith the three ActI have mentioned. Thle aulthorities; Of Lii

Anglican Clinrelt, thle Roman~h Cathohi'hurnl and Mrethodlist Church are t 11

chief suifferers fromt thle tax and it is deAirable that they., he freed front that hepost. I mtove-

That Hte il lit, h 1o0W letti a seOt1 ill]('r.

Qllt'I ilt piut and passed.

illIPt5tt through Comtmlittee withol

leiia tl', rpor0ted wit holt ATutenld incat ant~the Irepotrt adopted.

IlwN'e tttljii ited fit I?.1 2 a.m1. (fl/dav).

teqtifIatte Resenip,Thu rsd'tt;q. 1.71bI December, 1932.

Qtest ion: Irrigatiorn (oriison .. .. ..Assent to hBti .. .. .. ..Mari)nR : L'rnry-. Wheaituawpts n R~ Commn~on-

Wealtlh grant ...................flairying lnt.tstry. Ro~yal Cinind-osstt'sq repoirt..

Bill, : etropolitan Whole Mil1k, rento...... ...Lotteries (Control). 2tn., (ens............Mine Workern' RPean, renteneti.............Reservesl returned..................Mining Act Amendmettt (No, 2), 1R......lhul Hnnlint. ront....... ....1'nrnterg' l)ettq Adfltt Ott Art Amendmen.nt,

Cons., etc..................

PAGK241W.2410"

2405.2530A250525102547254725472517

254R

The SPEAKER took ithe Chauir :it 4.30Pr.,. and readr prae'fi.

2494

f15 Drcamtoca 1032]1

QUESTION-IRRIGATIONCOMMISSION.

Hr. Mcl AIITV nsked the M1inister forWorks-: Will lie considler thle adykableness;of appointing~ to thle rrmigationt Commissionmu representation From each of thme Harvey,Wam-ooln and collie irrigation areas?,

The MiNIS:TTER FOR1 WOR KS replied:The matter -will Ilie considered.

ASSENT TO BILLS.

%essage froaim the Licut-Governor re-ceived and read, notifying assent to thleundprienlioned Bills:-

1, Traffic A-ct Amendment,2, Swvan Land 13evesting.:1, Brands Act A mendinent4, Cattle Trespass. Fencing,

potIndsiing A mmeidmeiit.5, 3iustices Act Anmendmeitt.

mnd lIi-

MOTION-IRGENCY.

l~hot-ron-c-sald Common wealth grat.

Thle S PEAIER: I have uece-ived the fol-lowing letter front tile Leader of the Op-Position:-

.[ desire to inform you tbhar it is mym imtent-tion at ttie sitting of thle House this after-mc0011 to niove, "'Thlat the House do0 now ad-jaunt - ummler Staniding Order 47a, for thepimiposl of dist-issiiig the p~roposedl methmodsof the distributioni of thle Coummonwealthgrant for assistance to wheat-growers, acidalso the preseuit p~osition of tile farmlinlg ill-dnstry.

In tit mv opinion, thtis requiest is inl order, andif seven memibec's will s-tand in their place-s,the mnember for Boulder (ln P. Collier)nmayv debate the question.

Seven. amlembler's ha ving risen1,

HON. P. COLLIER (Boulder [4.3.1]: IMove-

Thuamt ti- I Iou~v do now adjourn.

1 suEbiiit the motion becausze the buisineisonl the Notice Paper does not appear tootfer mimi opporcunit 'y for a disctission of thisimportant matter. Thle House should notclose withont inmmbem- being given the op)-porttcnity to diclss, not only the Conunon-wealth granwt for assistance io wheat-g-rowersand the methods of dis-tributionl pi'olsose by

the State Government, hut also the vcryserious position of thre farmers of the State.Onl that point .1 need niot delay- thle House.It is admitted onl all sides thant the positionof our farmers is desperate inl tle extreine.Unless something mocre than it appears atpresent canl be done1 to assist these peole inltheir dillleulties. 1. am afraid the solvency oifthe State will be endangered. I desirefirst of all to consider the attitude orthe Commonwealth Parliament towardsti great and imuportant industry of Aus-tralia. Last year assistance was givenby thle Collmon01weal th (3overmnent tothe wlceatgrowers, alonle to tile extenit of.C3,000,00U. This ,year, the amount that h-asIICll made availablde is X2,,00, but thedifference is that 'whilst the 0%000,000 oflast Y'ear was5 for, assistance to wheatgrowers'alonte, becaluse it was it bouinty Onl the pro-dliction of wheat, this year the 2t million'~is not entirely for wheatgrowers, a portionof it being for assistance to p~rinmary pro-duncers other than whentgrowers inl theprovision of sviperphlosphate. The amuoutprovided this year, theref ore, is notonlY £750,000 less than that p~rovided1 lastyeair, hilt thie whole of thle grant does niot guto the wheatgrowers. There have been oc-casions when wembhers have availed themn-szelves of (lie 0oPportunlity to criticise Federal(Iove I'l mnls, and thir attitude towarisonlip of the principal inidustries of thle S8tate.I jnrcpose to have something to say onl thapar'~tia I aeCut oIf tilie qiLIPsti on. L'astyear-, whenl 1:S,000 wacs made available,represeim u a bounty of 44d. per butshel onlwheat, thle Cnnmnsnwealtli enided up it- ii-a n-i al yeaIIr inl. -it ice withI a defici of£ l0,751,0Uit-a eolossnmism Notwithstand-iug [fhat thle finiances of' thle Contnwnxelth1

showedl this great leeway of .0%A mibiunlpounds, the Government of the dany were

abeto nmake aVailable £i~ylf,0100 lc'i asist-antve to thle wheatgnuwers genierally.

The Premier: That was borrowed money.lout P'. COMIA. ll : It does nlut matter.

It was; a debt of the ('omnnimnwealth. and ithas, to he met. Ini these days, when deficitsarn' thre nit ing, it matters little whetherthle nlonlev% is Obtained fri-o revenuie or- fromboa n, hleca use deficits hecoine borrovedm mne v. Thle presenit financial year of theCounmonimvealthl enided Wvith au sitrplus of41.321,000. yes all thant thie Comnnonweal thGioverniment have beenm able to do, or havebeen willing- to do0, is to provide a suml thatl~s three-quarters of a million less tini that

2400 [ASS5EM BIN.

wvhich wvas given last year. We have to liecontent with the lesser amount beca use ofthe total that has been made aailable. 1wonder w hether- memb'ers of this Governmento~f all the talents iii the Commonwealth, thisGovernment which was elected to restoreconfidence, have anyi real understanding orOappreciat ion of thle pact that the farmersand wheatgrowers play in the national lifeof Australia. If they had, surely they wouldnoat lie content to hand( out bounties to see-oiidai v ititustiic to pass throughl tilie Coil-tooiwe.altlt Pairliallnent which ias just closedlain iniiquitoiis agr-eement eolieeiiig thle sugalr

tInlst try of Q ueenusland1, to which thle peopleof all thle States have to eoiitribii-aiidour- own share is a substajliaul tine-antI vetconsider that this wholly iniadequate sninl issufficient to enable the Caroims to tide overtheir difficulties. They cannot have an pro1)1-per appreciation of the relative importaileeof industries within thle Commulonwealth.If theY had, they' Would say, rega rdless i-lijlost of. thle fnancial position of thle Coml-mion weal tl TI'reasury, that the fa rmers ofA ustialha mu st he ke1 it onl their holdingrs."'le national .olvene , depends oni those pri-Inary producers IWill-r able to carry onl pro-duction wvithout civ.N coisidera l~e dinminutioniof their ouitlput. And whilst they say thatthecy IhaveC gi '-ci of their i utilnost, all the

mnoney' that is availahle to them, at tilesamne time we findI the Commonwealth Gov-eriimenit at this niomeiit mnakisig a reductionin) taxation ill direct inns which ire notne aiv so niecessi touas ats ai( f te farmers ofA usti-alia. I wvould nlot object to thle

eiv abiolit ion oif the Coimmoniwealth]t ill( tax so far- as, eonntrY lands and

rurl lands arc concerned :I believethat ait the present tinie it ought to be.susleitdetl, beca use whether it be tile lots-tora lists, the dai ivy producers or the wheat-growvers, the mnen onl the land iii every Stateof Australia are not in a position to payany* lndt tax. But the figtires showv thatthle iiajor portioi iof the mooney receivedfroii the Commonweal tlihi ad tax coinuffrom eit ' hilnd: because the tai hieiag ixedn laud values, not onl area, the %-alnes, arein thle cit.%. ]'the unimprovmed %'alue of asia Il Lid rte i-a crc blaork in 11el boun e orSydimey is worth mlore that] that of 1.000,00aces of pastoral country.

The Premier: And wvorI h a lot of agr-i-cultural l.aud.

Ilion. 11. COIJ: lRYes, wvoithi morethati liniireds, probably thoiisaind.,, of ageri-tiiltii ral fariis to-day.

Mr. Angelo: And it is also bringimg iiisomue rlevenue ait tile presenmt timne.

Hon. P. COLIII Eli: Yes. The owners oteity ,vproperties and lands, even though thevre going tliroz tm i dillicult times, call well

afford to ]pay\ the tax. They' are reap-in g filie unmean ed i ncremen t that hiasbeeii ceated, not by themselves bilt bY thecti vi ties, of the ounnuin i tY. ].aunil that was

lilonglit almoost within myV lifetime for ai merefew pounds ill sonic of the capital cities isbringing- up to .CI,200 or £1,500 per footPrOm tia-tf -dniv. It is the cdvY lanmdownemsthat fte Federal C overfiment are rel ieviingf'moi tixafioii, while at the samne ltiie saying-they have not the money that will enabletlieni to n.i ye any m.lore to thme farmers. ItwVon]1 dno ct mat ter very muehl to thle fu turesolvencyv of thle Commonwealthl if a gi-eataiier: ol' those ci ty interests wiere to 'close;it .. relier. tile eaumtry would carryN oil. Butit man~s all ;eid everything to this coiitr vif the primary producers are unable to coryon. Eveiyv tlinkiiig man mo ist hiave ito otherconcielusi on than] tflat there is nothl bu h tstairk iiisolencY facing the Coiiimonwealtltif' tile- pimnalv producers are divei oiltile; r holdimin-s I, being umiabile to calV oii.N o sacrifive is too zieat iii order that thatshionuld lie avoided. The distribution of the(Com monweailthi giYnnat. iade~ nate ais it is,is lpiop(ISd hr tie }Fedeiai G overnmient onlall a cicaw!e c p peel basis. So far- as I toom

ablle to 'judge, I have no fault to find withthat: T beli eve it is abottThe best methodtha t could be devised. I say again thiat,wb'ilst the Coin non wealth Governmient havyemmiide this ilnie\. av~ailable, thley tlaehedged it a liout witht limitations ats to thelmnethod or' its, distribution, limitations whichhamper the Stale floveninients that hav-c tillrespon sibhility- for its distribution. It is motfair, to saaille the State Governments, parl-tirularl ,vwith that por'tion of it which saYsthlev Iust select [ he naonut fromn thle granta i decide to whom of the distresqedfminers that anicunt shall lie distributed.It is a mnost u nfair resiaonilbili ti to ladceonl thle shoulders of. ali'v State Governinitand is in keeping with the niethods of mostof the C oni on weal t ( "oe InmDit nIsif thep~ast who, wyhile bjeiiig biounti ful oit thle onehanid with Iignit, 'of mloney for assistanme.

2406

[15 DcEMABtaa 1932.} 2-9

hre always hedged tho.,e grants. about withiP-4rfietiOth and linitations that prev-ent theState Government flGill exereismgii theirbetter knowledge or hlow thle nmoney oughtto be distributed].

Tile 'lMister tfon- Agricuitutre :It --Vcos tly (listrililtiu!I, too.

Honi. 1'. COLlIER: NV doublt. ThcetVstir*the money is to be distributed to dis-tres~ed famixers. How can the selection hemnade. sinlc there is not anly considerablein iner of fa rniers in 'Western A ustraliato-day that vannot properly be claissed astistre-sed fai-nei-s ? How.' then, are theState Gov-ernmnent to make a selection?7'Where is the line to be drawn between far-mers so that a selection might be muade offarmers that, ini thne interpretation of theGovernment grant, marv be considered dis-tressed? And( how long will it he beforetine relief is given? The situation will notpt-rmit of delay. I believe the basis pio-Iosed by, the Federal Government, namel~ylinylint oil acreage crnlpped, is the best thatc-an be devised if the money can be madeavailabhle at once, which is the urgent needof the farmers. But paymnent of the amnountto lbe made available to distressed farmierswill of necessity be delayed while inquiriesare bing made, and so will eventually be.-iven at a time when it will be of no valueto the people now in need of it. The con-dition of the farmers to-day is deplorable.Of all tile wheatg-rowers of the State, numn-boring about 10,000. probably 8,000 are un-relieved, with no security whatever, and nodefinite future before th~em- Tie thing isundermining the whole mnorale of the wheat-gmowen's The army leader in time of waris fully alive to the importance of the moraleof his troops. He will not attempt a diffi-cult undertaking if his troops are distressedand dissatisfied:. the morale mus~t be soundbefore anything canl be done. To-day inour wheat-growing areas that all-importantfactor in the make-tip of every main, whethera wheatgrower or in anl'y other occupation,is almost entirely destroyed, The result isthat men ane disheartened, broken inl spirit.Irf1hcv have no iiicemitire to. do the work thatis neecsary to enable then to carry oil. Menthat uised to g~et up1 at 5 o'clock inl tile morn1-1in and work until well a fter dai k are to-day indifferentm as no tile time they startWorlk, and careless as to thle qua1lity andvolume of work tho I perform.i 'rhiL is he-eanlse of thle itneerta int'v that confronG them

all the time. This, condition of thing,; isnot to be wondered at. The wheatgrowersof this State hare had three years of dis-treN Aful timie.,, three years in which they have1-iveii their labour and time and money, olyto that at the end of eachi of those years thattheir operatrions., have shown a consider-able los'. [h first Year they wereable to get over it becanse, no doubt,manyv of' thuiii, perhaps the majority, badsonie ainontiir of reserves built up overbetter vua rs inl tlt- pasr;tilher "-crc able totIll rv on, and the State tiii-ougb it- Uorarui-Ili('it, ill(ile roen'hanl, thie iaii1kers and thle (Oii-

Io g-ive ailea'silre or as--sistanlce that enabledthe proiturn to gct over thle fir',t year ofiiiii'olitoille work without intolerable di[ll-Ituiv. linlt tihat year- was toliliwed by3 :1seconid year of' prices which againl showed a

lu Thle fa liners were assisted to some extento%,er thalit lioSitill ill the secondl rear by the4- d, per bushel buinlitv granted byV thle Coin-

ionwea Ith iGCovernment, E ven ith thiat a.,-sistkiire time 'Year's operations showed at lossto jorarticmhly every farmer inl the State.

Now we Colic to this, the third, ycar- andlwe hare almost p)lmbed the depths of~ prieeskFCnwn iii the Imisror of this State: and withWhemat worithl ailimit 2s, 2d. Per hnsliel-it isadhmiitied that tlhe cost of growingr wheat is.not less thani 3s. per bul1C-heiC againl Iontie tii yer umon f aiiws a ie fared wvithiml alnsollne delad loss. No section of Theeiiiiiit ,v tai standi iii :igiii5 a siiece--siol Ii ii hail year s siwl Iis tlie fineiiiws havyene-xpei'ieiieed. So is it ;iiy ;x- onder that they:ire re~tless, diss-atisliel, losiiig hiope a iid li-

2Mr. AI.ii-siall :And loIni their homies andeoifori -

H1on. 1'. COLLIER: Yes, they aielosing hope because they are losing theirhomes and their future. Is it any wxonderthey hare recently decided to hold up thedelivery of wheat'~ I synipatllise wit]h thosemuen and amL mightily pxleased that the spirit

anid the lieart of the farnxen, still enabletiem to stand up and miake a. fight which, atany i-ate, will bring homre their dillhu-ulties toall the people, to the unthinking serti,-ii of

the people, to that section oh' 'the V0-oiniimiinitythat has iio knowledge of the impioritanit partwheatn p roducetioni play' s in the hifte of theeoumiti. 1 have had conszidem-able experieneof h141l1-11l-. That i- a new name for,trike.,, but I d-a1C nor what term is

2) 4 0 7

[ASSEMNBLY.]

used, AIthbough I liave been onl many oeca -sions opposed to strikes, [. have frequentlygl.oried in thre fact that the spirit of ourrace will not submuit to intolerable and de-grading conditions.

M. Marshall : That is the chief point.Hon. P. Oi1 I R : There comtes at timie

when our Lariners will ded-ine to lie slavecz,and serfs, unared ror by other sections ofthle community, i nclutding those sections whoare proting by.) their wvoik, middlemenalagents who are deriving, a comfortable ini-comc atid living inl good homnes inl the ctyv,whilst the farners live uirier entirelY (i -Ifei'eit conditions inl the comntry. Probiablythe farmlers who hield up their wheat knewthat thle hold-up wou)lId not he of very ' v uchwtintancial wssistaiwe to themn, but as~ a ckinoii-straliion awaiiist tdn intolerable conditions.the(.y were right ill doing wvhat they did. Wekno1w perfectly wvell that so long uis men nareconlten t to put ill) with intolerable eonlditionsso long wvill the wvorld pass them 1)iwN iii-heeding aind allow the"i to submlit to thoseconlditions. Only some unusual action, somneunconstitutional action, selie dcnuiolistratioiisuch as the wlneatgrowers have inde recentl ,y.wvill call the attention of thle ommilunity tothei r troubles, and pecrhaps "rive thornl 'Omnehope of relief. I have ini immued the clues-tion of' secuirity of tenuire. I will go so far--is to say that thle presentt positionl of thowhieatgrowers of the State malkes abtsoluitelyii dispenisable somlle security of tenicr.

Members: Hear, hear!lon. fP. COI 3FE1{ : At least three Year's

se(-ufltv VOf tenure should be givenl to Ve-rvwhleat~rolvei' Who is in a hopeless position

as Well a s to those who are caryingoil anld doing their best. I am11 aware of thi-1rguinenclt genterallyV advatneed that the i iilefi-enit wheartg-rower, the non-trier, the mian

who has got into very great diffiulties per-haps,- becaulse oft his own indifference or iii-efficiencyv, should not lie assisted; but 1 (10'nlot believe -there are a great numlber ofineietients minong the farmers, certainly nota greater lnulier than there is inl otherwalks; of life, Round pegs will always befound inl square holes. Sonic miti are un1-suited to their occupations. 'That will befound in every' walk of lifet tt is, how-ever, entirely unfair to say because thereis at percentaige (and T believe the percent-age would hie found to be not too higah) offarm-Ilers whlo are in trouble because of theirown' fault, that security of tenure should

be denlied to the great majority of the de-servinhg farriiers. As I, have said, the lackOf inlterest shownI by. themL ill their holdings,thbe don'1t-care attitude, is due en~tirely 'tothe tac.lt that they hav-e no hope inl the fuiture.I-low can onle expect mien to go on improv-ing their holdings by doing the work thatis nece'ssay131 Upon a farm, if they know thatherise of a lieu over their fari they niayhe dispossesed to-mnorrow or the day after.

N Er. Angelo: That applies to all farmier,4H~on. P. COLLiER :Of caurse it does.

Uman nature cannot stand it. Imagine aper'soni in the city with it mortgage over hishomne, receiving threatening letters each weekinforiing 1dmi that the nmortgage will beforeclosed unless certain things are donewhich it is not possible for him to do! Howmany men would start to paint. their houseand etfect improvements or renoivations. be-lieving it q.uite- possible that they might hedoiing it for somebody else who -will stepinto the house thle following week? Theumajority of the wheatgrowers hatve lost con-fidence because of circumstances quite out-s-irle their control. The first thing to inducethose in to get to work and carry oi theirfar'ns is to say to them, "So long as youp)la ,y your part amnd rio a fair thing, you willhatve secu Irityv Of tenlure for at least threeyears., Coodness knows thatt is not askingtoo mouch. I think it would be a wise ac-tioni to seut upi district boards such as ex4istin the Esperance district to-dayv. Each boardshould be r'oniprised of representatives ofthe farmners, the bankers and creditors, per'-sois who live onl the spot and know thefarmer who is worthy of assistance as dis-tinl siushed fr-om the famrines- whom it wouldhi' at was.te of nioney to carry on further.

The l'reimier: Those boards are purely'oluiita rv.

1 oim. P. CO LIA.E.11: I know that. I thinkthe Goverinneitt could set up district corn-inittees whicht would be of great assistanceto the Giuvrmment and also to the trusteesof the Agricultural Bank. Peihaps thle mein-her for hKanoivna ('Mr. Nusen) , will, beforethis dkseu'sion closes, give us the benefit of"his e\pei'ience. as chairmtian. of the2 voluntaryhoard ill the Esperanee district. That boardhas udonie very cood work.

Mr. Pantrick: There are two sets of cre-ditors to lie considered.

lieu. P'. COLLIER; Tihe creditors couldcomblhine and allow one person to relpresentthem. I g-ive it ats mny considered opinionthat the essential thing to be dlone at the

[15 lFhcFrnim, 19',2.] 29

inonient is to guiaranutee the wheatgrowersome security of tenure. The feeling thathie may he put off his holding to-mnorrow ornext week will inevitably result in deprecia-tion of improvements on the farmu. Souic,of thle farms are now going heck almost toa state of nature. SoincCouple of month.tago. in ieply to a question asked in thisHouse, mtenibers were informed that nofewer than 801) farnis hadI heen thrownback on the bands of the Agricultural Bank.I amn not exaggerating when I say-and tile2MKiistert knows it -tih a mu w nrs ara leavi, iltheir farmis everyv week. The number offarums which will be thrown back onl theAi-ricuItural Bank will increase each week.lIn the cour-se of a couple of years the pub~-lit itioierv that has been expenlded ill die-veloping those holdings, %iill have been lost,because thle improvements will bave disap-peared. Apart from that, the activities ofthe men still remaining onl their holdingswill lie lessened. There will be a consider-able decrease in the area placed under cropduring the coming year. ] am informed,and liy observations in the country leadme to believe, that the reduction in areatinder, crop iii the coming year willhe not less than 30 pcer cent. I amreminded that there is no prospectof thle fariier obtain fing at better lprice foirhis wheat next y-ear', and the 30 per cemit.that will not be put under crop during thlesucceeding year wvill, in the next year, beprobably doubled. W ithmin measura ble dis-tance, within two rears or a little over, thearea under svbeat will have decreased] hy notless than 50 per cent. I do not believe thatis n exaggerated statement. I ask thepeople of Western Australia to picture tileeconditionl of things iii this State, with allour~ respolns i 1diliesi a ndl fia21)lit ics. -whenwheat. growing" .911all have rieereamsei to theextent of 50 per cent. I do not think I aimiasking- too mutch when I Say that at- leas4tthree y-ear.,' sectirity of tenurte sh4ould he

gvenl to thle genuinle farmer. I do not thlinklnIna asking too muchi, havingr regard to

the fact that only last evening the Ministerfor' lands introduced] a Bill into this Hfousto provide security of tenure to the pa~r'r-alists for 50 years.

The -Minister for Lands;: That is a dif-ferent kind of secuirity.

Honi. P. COLLIER : I know, hut there isa gr~eat difference between no security ait alland security for 50 years. The piistoralistzar'e even nOWsell for 716 vent-. It hq eon-

s-ideted that that tenuire is insilicient,: they2l'1iid rble to obtainl tile financial assistancethey require with a security of tenure forIi Gr ears: and in order to place themi inwhat the Glovertnment believe to he a soiindpositioni

The Prceiier: Thley. have no security oftenure.

Hon. 1'. COMTER :No0 secujity oftenuire?

The 3Mlnm'-er io. ir I~ds 'Not a a2iisltheir creditors.

I-Ton. P. COL'JiER: But it is proposedliv the (lovernienit to give the pa-siotalisslecuirity of tenure for 50 years. The farmer,however, is not secure in-his holding for 24hours. He is being- cautioned every weekthat lie will be dispossessed. How- (anl amian face wvith any heart the work necessaryto be dlone onl a farm when he is in such astate of uncertainty? I know the two casesaire hardly comparable, but to an extent theyare. If we are justified in saying to thelpastoralists. "Your position entitles you tosecurity' of tenure for 50 years, unitil1980-

Mr. Marshiall :1M82,lion. P. COLLIER: Yea. T think, inl

face of that, we are not asking too muchwhen wve say thle farmner should lie givenlsecurity of tenure for at least three years.

Tue Premtie: The farmer is receivinigprotectioni und ter legislation like die Mort-gagees' H iglits R estriction Act.

Hoil. P. COLLI[ER : 'F remihise that. hutneairly all thle .failers are at presenton sustenance, aind the anun ot sius-tenanee being paid to minn of tlieniis below the scale allowed to theizneinloyed. I have been almost inundatedwvith letters onl the subjecot. I do not knowwhy the farners write to me; I am not adirect respresemtative of the farmers. a]-though [ hope I represent all sections of thinSt ateP. lint I receive letters every day oiit-lili lg farmlen;' t roubrhen anrd dli Iieutites. TIwould take hours to read the letters thatIhave inii ' v room oil the qluestion of susten-

ice. Is it unreasona"ble to sa that cIiewho laboPur all the year in producing aines5sent ml commilodity-a conmmod litY almostessential to life itself-should riot at leasthave first elni n upon their commtodity for afa in- su ,terw rice :11 o no nec? Surelyv that is,fair.

Mr. Oriffitlis: Thle taxpayers piovidle itfor [lie gLenieral workier.

2499

200[ASSE-1iRI1.'s.

Hon. 1'. COLLIER : Yes. Apart fromthle fadt that ev-ery-one inl need is' entitled tosustenance, it is admitted that the wheat-

groeris otonly doing useful work suchas the susteinance mni is douwsX but is alsodoing work essential to the future Securityand prosperity of the nation, He is doingwork that will enable the State to mneet thesustenance requirements of other people.Jt is a national work. Consequently I thinkthe farmier is not asking too much when herequests that the commodity lie produces as'A result of his year's work should entitle-bill, at least to at fair rate of sustenance.For thle sustenlance given to the fa riner,£4, £:5 or £6 at mtonth, he has to pagy .3/per cent. interest.

Mr. iI~rsliadl : It is wrong to mnake thatcharge.

Honi. P. CJOLLIER.: le is charged in-terest onl his own goods.

Thle Premtier: He does not pay intereston his own miotley.

Ron. P . COLLIER: H0 pays interest Onlthe money advanced to him.

The Premier: lie gets credit for anymoniley lie pay13s.

13ion. IN. 1). Johnson: The doverineurtake the whole of the money, and onl whatthe farmner gets for, the maintenance ofhimself and his fawily, the Governmentcharge interest.

Hon. P. COLIE: He gets sustenancefor himself and family, and is charged51/ per cent, interest 0i3 it.

The Premier: le gets credit of 51 percent. onl what he repays.

Honl. P. COLLIER: Sustenance shouldbe tile h1"t claimt on his production. Howcan we expect mien to continue in any oc-cupationj if they Erre not p)ermitted to takeout of their work enough to provide themi.selves andi their families withi a living,with bread and butter9 Tt is unreasonableto expect it. It is all very well to say wehave not tile mnoney. We ought to lind themnoney.

The Premier: By Jove. we a3t, tied upthere.

lHon. P. COLLIE El I have a stir-ggrstionto oiler that 1. think is of ai 4onstructivenature. T have stiated before that thereought to hep a tax oil flour, tha a priceshould be fixed for wheat tor hiomc eon-sumnption, I should say the price of wheatfor home consumption should lit- H perbushel. That would not provide verv iit,

money for our wheargrove-s, because ofthe comp'arativdy smnall quanitity of. wheatconsumed iii the State. Of our output, thlequantity used for ho011e C0SUntlption1 wouldbe :),000,000 or 4,000,000 bushels.

Hon. W.% 1). Johnson : 'Only 2,0001.000.

Hon. P. COLI1IER : It would nut ainmlutto vecry il i per~l iamp s it xxi 3 e a 331Cr eFraction. but it would have a considerableiloral effect oil the whIea tgrowverIs. It wouldgive them the satistaction of knowing~ thatthey were not giving their labour all tieyear round to produce one of thle s-taplefoods oif like ait a1 loss to thomselves;. I reit-erate what I have said previously, that thepeople have no tight to expect any manl togro wheat and pouebread at 'ahwa-tre less than the cost of production.Thle wleatg-rower is entitled to a living.By all the canons of fair play ;and justice,the mjan who provides our daily' breadought to receive at price sufficienit to coverhis cost of pirodciniig the article. Therecan be no reasonable or logical rejoinderto that contention. We ought to have ar-ranged that. Other States have duone it.

Thle Premier: [tnt thley) consumne onebus.hel out of evciv four hushieb the(' 1)0-

durce.H-on. P. (JOljlJ+ R : I know that tile

benefit to tile inrilers in New South Waleswould he very nuuel greater because oftheo larger quantity ot! wheat consumnedwithin that State, Still, I1 repeat that all-thtoughi the amoittilt of financial benefit thatwould accrue to our tavoiers would hievorY ..131ll , th li oral effect wvould liegreat.Tpie( g-rower would feel satislied tlit liewas, not: suiftering in tolerable difficultieswh ile producing bread for the rest of thecoinmutnity at less than cost.

Thie IPremtier : lie is Producing wheatas Nwell"a bread.

Hoti. P1. COLLIER : Well, whyv do notwe fix tile prices of both commnodities? TheComn 3 weai It it P arli amencat sh oul d hiavxefixed thle lprie of wheat inl Aistral ia.. Iappreciate the difficulties that confront theState. The CommnonwealIth Pailiamientoughit to stahil ise the price of wheat knAustralia over a period of years. I shouldsay that a price of 5s. per bushel wouldnot he too high. That would allow thegrower of wheat not only wages but areasonable imargin of profit On that pricethle growver would not be profiteering.

2500

[16 DECCM[DER, 1932< 5

Tlie P'reier: it cori 1( pp! v only to t heportion used for home consuilption1.

Hon. 1'. COLI A Ut: Yes, the Common-wealth could fix a price for home consumap-tion. I know we have no control over theprices obtained overseas, hut it is the duty'of the Common wveal t It Parliamien t to fix atprice for home cornsu mptiou onl a fairbasis.

IMr. Patrick: They have refused to do so.Hon. P. COLLIER: I know they have,

and] I am condeniing them for thteir re-fusol. It was only at fair and reasonablerequest.

The 'Miinister for Railways: Tbe twoe bigproducing States are also big consumingStates and they' are doing that for them-selves and their farmers get the advant-tage.

Ron. P. COLLTER: That is so. I amstressing the point that the Comnmonwvealthoudzit to do it.

The Minister for Railways: And thenwe would get the advantage.

The 'Minister for Lands: Western Aus-tralia is the largest of the wheat exportingStates.

Hon. P. COLLIER.: Yes. The percentageof wheat exported by Western Australiais far in excess of that exported by anyother State. Because the thickly populatedStates of Victoria and New South Wales,are big eonsu~luei-s. their proportion ofwheat for exlport is lower-.

The Minister for Railways: The advan-tagze of a flour tax would b1)grater to fli?

qrwr i the larger States.Hl.1.C) [LE R : Yes. Bianejall v it

Wonid amiounit to veryN little in Wester"Aust ral ia. Still, I repent that the ptsyc ho-logical effect onl the Farmer would be coit.sidera ble. ife would realise that we weretrin ug to do himi just ice. atilt were nt ask-ing [in to provide bread at a9 logs to hiim -self.

The Minister for Railw-avs: You wouldhav-e to tl it oin a Coalmnnweal thI hasi,.Y-ou could not iaipose a sumfciently highflour tax here to be of any benefit.

The Premier: A tax could he imposedonl wheat andl meat.

Hon. P. COLLIER: T realise that thediffictiltie; here are greater th an in Statessuchl as Victoria and New SouthI Wale;.

Mr. Patrick : The Vicetorian OriGvernmnenth ave just been defea ted on the quest ionior' a flour I as.

lion. - '. CO[LI Ell? I know many- peoplefear that a tax of the kind would have (iheeffect of increasing thme price of hi-cad.

The Miniister for Ha i I v:vs: it imujst havethat effect.

Hon. P. COLLIER: I do not know thatit ain't have that effect.

The Minister for Lands: [f yot put a9buigprice onl wheat-

Bon. P. COLLIER: T am not itu..geet-i aprice that would give thle farult-ls

substantial relief.The Minister for Lands: Could vou get

£25,000 from it?Honi. P. COLLIER : We could not impose

a tax to pr-oduce any considerable fiancialrelief, but the psycholog-ical effect would begreat. It would show the wvheatgrower thatjustice w as being done Iiim mlorallyv, al-though he was not getting any great benefitfinanciallyv. The 21h. loaf of bread to-day. v%%h]enl wlheat is N;. 4d. a bushel, is as dear aSit w-as when wheat was 5s. a9 bushel.

The Minister for Railway' s; Jndicatinigthat it is not the price of wvheat that gov:-c-ins the price of bread?

Hon. P. COLIERZ: Buot the price ofwheat should be a bigl factor-.

The Minister for R~ailwaYs: It should l)etlie facto?.

Hotn. P. COLLIERl: Yes; wages to-dayare lowier than they* were whien wheat was5s. a bushel and bread w-as the same price,namely, 5d. per~ 211). loaf; To-day* wheat ishalf the price, wages aire lower, and breadis the same price.

,\rt. Marshall: Rents also are much lower.Hon. P. COLIER.: Yes. Costs of pro-

duction are lower andt yet the price of hreadis the same.

The Minister for Riailw-ays: No.Hon. P. COLLIERi: WVell, nearly the

same.Hon. W. 1). Johnson: There has not been

much of a ,-eduction.Hon. P. COLLIER: I believe we could

fix the price of wheat for flour at 5s., butwe would probalyl' need legislation to coni-trol the price of bread. I bedlieve that breadcould be sold at the same price as that atwhich it is Ibein. sol 50(lo-day. though riotwithout legislat ive contr-ol, because when theprice of wheat wenit up, tip3 would go thept-ice of bread. even thoughl costs wecre notmunch mci-eas ed. We would tneed the samteSort of? conttrol as that prescrilbed nuder- the

2.501

2502 [ASSEMBL1Y.J

Metropiol itail Wihole Milk BillI. I shoul Y( ear's thle amiount li xed has bWeel exr-eede I.like the Minister for Agriculture to he madethe 'Minister for price-fixing. We h~avereached a stage when we shall need aI M.inis-ter for price-fixing. The Mtinister for Agri-C('111I'Ce has whlol ehe arted, ('(lprel I C 51 i'and drastic ideas about price-fixing.

The 2linistei' for Agriculture: But Ishould like to fix miy own board withoutinterference fromt you.

The Premier: It would be like the newprotection under which everybody was toget a benefit.

i-Ion. 1P. COLLIERi: I think the \I1 iisterand I could agree onl that question. I haveanother suggestion. Il New South Walesthe Governlment have supplemented theCommonwealth grant to the extent of£300,000.

The Mmiistel: for Lands: No. £:280,000,which wits taken, out of thle proceedIs of thleflour tax.

]-]on. 1'. COLLIER: Yes. The position of,our Wllcatgrowers a Id their l)iospects fornlext year] are such ais justifyv Parliament inta ki hg strong action. I ould supplementthle Conouion wealth grant In' making avail-able It for assis~tan~ce to our1 wheatgrowei's thlesumn of £1.00,000.

The IPremnier : You won 1(1 have to -gt itby taxation.

Ron. 1'. COLLkI ERi: No : I will tell tilePremI ir how I. wo a i get it. In Common110with, other State' Treasurers, hie is calledUPOn to frle his Budget Proposals on thebasis of the dflicit alowed Ilim for the year'.

']he 1'ui-ev c: I did I ot agree to that.PIo .It 01LIEli : I know; but tile Loan

Coouncil lixed the deficits for each State, andii'liI's Was fixed ait £768,000.

Tfie Premier: I dlid not agree to that:. Thad( to hike it.

I Ion. 1-'. COLLIER : T knowi that. At anvrate, that is the deficit allowed for' this fiin-vial , ear. T will tell the Premier what Twould do. t would] ma21ke £100,000 availableto tile wlleat-gvowers and bY so doing 1would increcase the deficit b)'y thIa t amont,Illking- it C863,000. I wold then -o to theI oall Coma-il and light then, on it.

The Preier: I anm sorr y, blut-]Ton. P. CO LLIER : Let the Loan Council

turnIl thle Pr'eier Id' wl. He has an un-flflswer',l e. anl it would not be thelfirst tinme the deficit agreed upon01 bad heelitexceeded. fIn fact, during the pa4t three

I41st year' thle Premier wvas allowed a1 deficitof .0',200,000. Bie found that lie could not,let through onl tliat amlou nt, and the deficitallowved hjimi was subsequentlyv iiineist'd to£1 557,000. 1, would aake thle £100l,000available, and [ mould go to the L~oaH ((1121-

eil and sayv, '' 1 :1111 v'CI' sor',' hutl I havenot beenl able to live withinl thle illiltlut VOnhave a'll~ Iowed tiie' .1 have expen~d ed al ,lai-ditionoil X100,000, which I aniade availablefor the assishtance of the whentg-rowers ofW~ester~n Australia."'

'file Pr'emier : You k-now that unde,' fleFinancial Agreement I hlave to get the111111e 'N first, non01th b13 Inolnthl.

11all. P. COILLIERi: I knowv that. It isall very, v-c X.I: they callnot SHY, "Ave will notallow You tied~ deiit1

The Premier: I have to get thle novieyever ,yweek to pay the workers anal so oin.

FlOn. P'. COatH El: I would incur thatex penditre-

Air. Almrshall: What has ['lance done ire-girld ing her debt to Ami~erica?

Hlot. P3. COlIAEli: :r would incur thatexioenditui e anad the,, throw tile responsi-bility onl to the( Loan Concil of dishionour-i,, ile (40 'O11I anc t 5cIIeq tis. 'fhey woulIdnot dare to dlo so.

The Al i aister for Rai lwayvs: That is whatLanjg said, and thecy dlid.

lion. 1'. COllIER: But Lang (lid it de-libl-atp fev.

Thie Millister for B iimsvas: Anad that iswhat .%"vo are asking us to do.

I-lOl. P-. COLLIER: But there wvas a casdjaunZimlst Lanlg that could not lie- ;igaitt tileMitelhell Co vernlent. Here is anotheCr de-.fencee. L et [ lie Premlier go to the LoanCouinvil. Inning, nade available tile £100,000 that I suggest, and] saY to the LoanCouncil, "Unless T get this, assistane-

Hon. W. D. .Johnson : No productiou!Bola. P. COLLIER: -thirty per cent, of

Our' vhentgrowers wvill go out of productionandi next , ear r shall have to comeC to yolland sa v thlat i stead of a further reduction,l1o' deficit wvill havye to lW inel'Cised toci .500.00.

T-on. .1.- C. Willeoic k: No doubt, t hat isMhll it would he.

l101n. P. COLLIER : Of course itMould ble, if 30 per cent. of ouralientgrowVers went out of product ion.TIstead of next vear', deficit being in thlevIcinitY of £700,000, we zhall have

[15 DlwsMBRirr 193-2.1

a deficit of 41,300,000 or 'C2,00u,000. Whatis an expenditure of £100ot,000 nlow, seeingthat it will save tihe inrancial pozsition1"ext year? H ow call we hrope to) live uptto a. delicit of CT5u,000i. if our' wheatgrlowilugareas are to dinminish ! What w4ould be sireresult'? A greater number of people wouldhav e to) draw susztenance; trade anl com-merce would be stagnant; no taxation wouldlie received; there would bie no0 revenule fromtour pirbliv utilities or frorm other sources.Our ijirairesz. in) such ci rcnrnsta rrrces, wouldgo to piece-s.

Tire Premier: But we ouight to pay- thewheatgrower a fair bonits, not X100,000only.

H'on, I'. CtlIER3 :4 suggies;t a fair ad-vanceP slhould be wade available, It rmay he,fun H that c-V.0.1) is; mmeflient.

The Premier: Ou the othrer haond, it marbe £C200,000.

Hon, P. COLLIER : I do not say that afair advance should be made, but, at the samnetime, £,1001.000 must be reg-arded as a fair-amount.

The Minister for Lands: It would require£300,000 to place the wheatgrowers in thesamne position as they' were last year.

Mr. Slecirran: How do you know-?}Ion. P. COLLIER: Does the Minister

suggest-11r. Marshall : Where are his figures?Several otiher rnenrhers interJced.Mr. SPEFAKEIR : Oirder! I1 must ask hon.

inerirhers to keep order: (otherwise 1 shallIrave to take' actionl.

-]-on. P. COLILIER : Does. the Mfinister forLands suce-tthat because it is impossibleto make availabrle £E300,000, an advance of£C100,000 will lie of iro uise at all? Is thathis argumreut ?

Mr. Marshall : That is lirot the point1

cithIrHon. P. COLLIER: Does the M1inister

say that because X310,'000 c:annot be found,wve will n1o1 provide anything at all? IClaim that Ui00.000 would represent somemeasure of assistance arid would aid many'of thro~e who are now- ini decided distressandi irrus-t be helped. It does not seem tomie a sound or logical argument to say thatas it would requiire £300,600 to place thefarmers in a po~ition simlilar to that in whichthey were lust year. thle graonting of £:100,000is nlot worth While, I urge thec Premier tomnake availably £ 100,000 which will. be addedto the deficit. and then let tile L~oan Counciltake the re-porizibility of forcinge him to

default. Unquestionably, if relief is notafforded thle farmners, andoc large ar~eas go outof cultivation, the deficit next year will lie

qire £1,30,000. Yet tile Conuniorwea ItliIioverrrnuent will expect deficits to be reducedHess year. They desire the reduction of thedleficits to be progrvessive.

Tire 1,.ki.V reer hey haethle lpower.Herra. P, COLLIER : 1 know. While they

dirt have public oipilnion behind themn w;henrthey took- action against Lang, they couldnot adopt the sarme attitude towards theGovernment of Western Australia. Our.;ia4 re: pectar Ire U overriment.

M1r. Parrron : They~ have that name. anly-l'ow.

'Hoir. P. COLLIER: The Federal Govern-tlrtWOUld riot daire to take such action

against our Govenmuent as they took againsttime Lang Oovermmnenrt. La ng Irad a power-ful Pection of his own people in New South%Vales opposed to him, and the subseoquentclectious showed that a great majority ofihe -people were opposed to him. On Lireother hand, thre Premnier would have thlewhole of Parliament; and the whole of trepeople of Western Australia behind Irim inany actioii lire saw lit to take to grant assist-an~CC to tire wheatg rowers A the present junc-tuitre.

Tire Premtier: W~hat yout do not realise isrhat 1 rimirurot Pa~y thle £100,000 before I

iirst get it.Honr. A. McCallum: You have to get it

nowti.'fie Premier: From clay to day.Hon. A. MeCalfluni : N'on have a big de-

ficit.Tire I 'rernier : But we cannot draw a

elmeuiie for £:100,000 to-day.Hon. P. COLLIER: There is a way by

Which it canl be donie, althrough I knowo itivolves defiance of the Loan Council.

The Prenmier: That is so.lfr. Angelo: If thle Government had a

urnited House of Parliament hiehind themn,it would help.

lon. P. COLLIER: Tire Premier wouldhrave a good defence.

Tire Premier: Tire first thing would be togVet the money.

Hon. P. CO01lIER: I believe that, on thelattest fig-ures! thle Premier will keep withinhis estimated deficit, or, at any rate, willha near that mark. On the othter hand, 1venturre to assert that if hie does stand upto his obligations inl thrat respect, hie willbre amoirt tire univ Treasrurer who -will do

[A 8SE21113 LVY.

zo. Nearly every other Treasurer wrill haveto go to the Loan Council and will haveto say that lie has fallen short of the de-sired deficit by £100,000 or more, And sonmcby £:1,000,000 or £2,000,000. I do not thinkthiat the New South Wales Government c-anpossibly keep) within their limit of a

£5,000,"000 defivit.Mr. Kenneallv . Yet that State continues.

to pay.Holl. 1'. CO ~lTlEtl: We will -find that

t he Premier of New South Wales will go tothe Loan Council and say, "We are sorrywe hare not been Able to live uip $o ourtestimtated deficit." I assure the Premnier.i lint hie will have plenty of company withthe other five Premiers inl the samne position.

Mr. AMarshall, He will have a majoritywith him;, that is a certainity.

Ion. P. COLLIER.: I know this is atdrastic action to suggwes4, but the position isdrastic in Western Australia.

Tion. 11. P. Tr~oy: It is desperate.Hon. P1. COLLIER: The position is ex-

treily difficult, anti it requires desperata!mneasures to mneet it. Let us contemplate theposition of Western Australia two 'yearshence. Unmder present conditions, it is a,certainty that-

The Minister for Works: I hope we willniot have present prices for two years.

Ilon. P. COLLIER: We cannot live onhopew. There are no indications at presentthat the position will he better next year.'We hope it will be, but we do not knowwhat will haippen. It is All so uncertain.The world position is worse than ever. TheEuLropean Anid international sitnation htasbecome decidedly more complicated7 and 'Ido not see Any possibility of an economicrecovery wrhile world conditions are as dis-turbed As they' are at present. With halfour whealgrowcrs off the land, with half ourcleared and] cultivated farming areas re-verting to a state of nature, many more menwill become dependent upon the State forsustenance, and in those circunistances whatwill be the financial position of the Statenext year? I tremble to contemplate thesituation with a continuance of present con-di tiouls.

The Minister for Rilwa-ys: Partienlarlyniest year!

Hlon. P. COLLIER: I mecan, viewing itfront the Opposition bench, itf thle MinisterSi kes. In ilovingl this9 moition, T wo~nt to'

emnphasise thle fact that T have n p~oliticalaxe to grind, none whatever. We, as P

Labour Party, will contest ver few Agri-eCilturtal constituencies At the next elections,fewer than we did last time. I hope boo.mnembers; will give ine credit for not endeav-miring to grind Any political Axe on thisopcasion. 1 Hill A citien of Western Aim-tralia and my future And the future of myraili ' is wrapped uip in the welfare of theState. That Appilies equally to All of uts.I sin fearful of what will happen to the9tash during nest year, 'When the crashconlies, we shiall suffer most. We are a~nisolated community, and actually WesternAustralia is the poorest State of the Comn-tuonwealth. There is less acquired or ac,-cumulated wealth here than in any otherState. There are very few rich people inour midst. We have expended large auntsof nioney during the last 20 yea-rs in build-ing- up our wheat industry, which has loadedus with an extremely heavy interest bill.When the industr- fails uts in every direc-tion, then Western Australia will be in adeplorable conidition, and, as I say, shouldt he crash comne, we will be in a much worseposition thanm any of the other- States. Weshiall all suiffer. This subject is more seriousandi mtore important than votes and partypolities. I do itot care a hang- who may beiil charge of the Treasury benceh after theniext election. but TI want to see the Statesu;irvive tile crisis with which it is confronted:it I le jpresent time. If the party' at presentin office can weather the stormn better thaniwe onl our side of the House can, I shall seethat every :tssistancve is rendered themn intheir task. We Are confronted with thepossibility of a real crash in Western Aus-tralia if cond itions do not improve, and Abig factor in tidling us aver our- difficultieawN.ill lie Goverittent assistance to this greatand imp~ortant priniiy indiistrv of wheat-g~ow ing. Suificient aid must be rendered itto enable the industr y to hie carried on. Wemust endeavour to keop the area tinder croptip to the standard of last year, and to thatexperienced ill precedaing Years. ThereforeI submit this proposal to Parliament,even though it may involve a fight with theLost Council. The Premier should see thatthis m~oney is Huade available, irrespectiveof what the dleit niay he, And then heshould fight it out with the Loan Councilltr on.

As ifo Procedure.

The, l'lM1ER : IT have ipokenn tof theLcadei' olf the Opposition on this tuatter andl

[15 DECEMBER, 1932.] 2505

101(1 hll, that I should like an' adwutiuentoc tile debate. I ia~ortunately that is lot pos-

,i)] . 'ile ilipitalile iof the subject dle-inands that the reply should be carefullyconsidered, aind it the Leader of the Oppo-sition has no objection, we calla, by arrange-mneat, conitiniute thle d isecissioni to-mlorrowa fternoon.

Hon. 11. Collier: [ am willing it, withdrawtil mc'otion )In that uindersmtanad'ing.

The PREM11IR: The matter i5 vecry ill-

lbe cont inuned just as well to-miorrow asto-clay.

ilon. P-. Collier: Thle moition is in thehand&- of the II ouse. l'ersonall Lv. have noob~jectioni to withld ra wing it oil tile under-taking given bY thle ieinier that we shalllie giveil anl ippoitniity to debate it to-fliotrow.

MrIt. J. 1. 3imaii: l\ilI aiiv mnember be ableto speatk to the mnotion?

Thie P EMI Eli: Yes.lion. 1'. Collier: Oil tie undcertakiing given

by tile Preumier , I have 'to objection to with-drawiiig tile miotioin.

imr. antriVFIfIls: I would (hlt\i, Your at-teition, ,11r. Speaker, to t(he fact t hat oil thle9th December L sought jpermiissioii to nuovethe( a' ho ni-n iien t of the Hotuse to di set'ss thiesame question. I amn delighted that tileLeader of the Opposition has been given theOJpportuiitY to bring the matter forward,though at the sai''e time I consider I wasun afairly t reatedU i'i being iriiused peCrm iiionto-

Mr. S PEAKERi: That is a reflection omathe Chair.

MNr. Grilliths: I intended it to he uehl.lion. 13. Collier: My motion is entirely

different; :t that ltme the Commonwealthbad not arrived at any decision.

Mr. SPEAKER : I demianad fromt the locan]ler for Avon a withdrawal of the statementlie maide that T acted anCa iiv ill refusiinghimii perm iss ion' to move thle a (1.10u a nen1 of:the House. I will give mnembiers Ill oppor-tiunitY of perusing thle motion that tile menl-her for Avon submitted to tie. The inotiouiwas totally different fromn that stubumittedi bythe Leader of the Op position this afternoonVoln which secured my approval. I take tit"stmoiig-est excep~tioin to the hon., member'sremark. anld I demand its wvithdrawal.

Kr. Griffiths: TIn view of youlr explana-tion. MrIt. Speaker, I withd raw, but at thesamec timne T believe it to be correct.

.Ill-r SPE~l.-AU ;Thie hon. tuetmluer mustwithdaw unioinditioinally.

M r. Grifliths I withdraw.Mr. Panton :May I ask in what way the

manttei' wvillI be re-iiitrodueed to-morrow,

.Mdr. SPEAKER3: Before thle stiljeet callbe discussed to-nttorrowv, it wilt 1)0 necessar 'for the Premier to move for the suspensionof another Standing Order, aparit front thosethat alreadyv have been 'luspeniaed. TheLead er of the Ci oposition has asked for leave.to withdraw the motion. Ts it thle wih oftile [louisc Omit tilte liot ion lie witlidrawn?

_\I otioln. by leave. wvithdrawn].

BILL-METROPOLITAN WHOLE MILK.

Jleewd,,,ilal

Onl motion liy the Viniisti'm for Agieul-tti e, Bill recomijitted for thle purpose 012,onsideiiiig two new chnises tol stnii( 'IiClanses 26 and 27.

In Comamittee.

M'r. Rlicharison inl the C'hair: the.AtItister for Agriculture tin charge o' ci Bill.

Newv clause:

Thle 3ITN[STE'R FOR01 ]C1TI[ move-That tile following newv biause, to stanud as

Clac 26. be added to the Bill:-Comnpenisatioin finds.

2m. (I.) Par thle purpose of this Act thiereshll IIe established two comipeinsationi fundsto be admn istered bv the Board and to be

110 'ii respectively as ''Thle ])airyinen 'sCompenisa~tion Food" aind 'The 'Milk Ven,-dors' Comupensation Fhund.'

(2.) For tIe purpose of nmainita inin g thlesaid funids-

(a) verry licensed diirynn shiall con't ribu teto tilie !)airyinuen 's Comns~la tion Funrdat ai rate to be prescribed by regula-t ionls, lint niot to exceed oue-sixteeiuthof a iieaiw per gallon for every gallonof millk produced by% him; and

(b) very- licensed milk vendor and everyierson holding a license for the treat-menit of miil k sim ]] contribu te to theMilk Vendors' Compensation Fund atI rale to be prescribed by regulations,but not to exceed aie-sixteenth of apeony per galloin for every gallon ofmuilk sold or treated by hint, as the

ease too be.(3.) Thne con tribu tions payable under this

sectiogi shall he assessed and he paid at suchtimes aid inl such manminer as mray be pre-s-i ibed by regulations.

2500 (ASSEMBLY.]

in deference, to the wvishes. of hon. mici-hers onl lotlh sides of the hou1.se, ] havegon1Q care~fully into the quiestionl of coma-penlsatioa and the amRount to be paid -isthe resuilt of the activities of thle boardby depriving holders. of licenses. -My ideawas to provide for two comipen-sation funds,one for Cte producers and the other for thievendors., The produers, are to pay inltothe 11111( one-sixteerith of a penny per gal-Ioll onl tdie milk they produice, atnd that wvillle placed at the disposal o' the board toCiiihi pl'Sa I d ir ,rvnienl who may he deprivedof their bu sinless. The moilk vendors whom011 welicense iunder the boa rd shall payv into ain-ther hinld wihel wvill also be placed at thedisposal of the board for dist ributionamongst those vendors who miglht ie de-p~rived of their licenses by the board. IPirfpose to restrict that payment also toone-sixteentl, of a pienny per gallon, andto provide that if anyone is deprived ofhis license lie shall have the right of ap-peal to thle board. TC the appeal shouldbe refutsed, time licensee will then havethe right of appeal to the couirt in a man-ner similar to that inserted in anotherclause of the 'Bill Last nighlt.

H~on. 9. XW. METNSTE: T am pleased theMfinister has given attention to the matter

of opesto.There is a bare possibilityof the producer being reu id licensebecause of the milk not being up to stand-ard or because of a refusal to comply withthe r-egulations.. I aim positive that if thlehoard is goingm to do anything for tile pro-duncer, whatever is done must Collie f-oinithe distributor. It is certain there -willhe a considerable i mimbl of' distlriutor-s11111 out. (r their oceupation, and withthe fuml(d, divided as it now is, equally,'it will 1101 lbe p~ossilble to 'o. any- Vtling- for the producer. The benefit thatthe board will ble able to give tothe produicer will be governed by thea~mount 1 hat is in the ftind. Until time dis-tribution oF. muillc inl thle metropolitan areais ,raie thmere is no hope of giving thedistribim tor better conlditions; than lie isgetting to-day.

The 21 IN ISTI',t lFJl .XGR ICLf.ruu1 (10 nol believe that any dairynman -willreqire to bew comipensated or will bie ptout of bisiess lby the board: rather willdairyimn "e enrouraged to comne into thehuimes :. 'rhe only lmen who can Ile de-

prived o1,their bulsimmez,$ will bie those whodo nult comlply with time standardl that isset lip. I put this iii because umenmberssaid there should be somle provision forcomapensation. I do not think any mevy%vili be collected from thme dairymen, bultthe position is different hii the ease of dinedistributors. It economies, are to lie ef-feetemi, some distribultors will go out ofbusiness. Those who are left inl shouldpiay a lexY~ fromo which to complensate thosewho will be deprived of their livelihood.I amn assutred by thle Crown Law Depart-inenit that tile rceremmelcc to "*per gallon forevery gallon of milk produeed ' means milkprndnced within the meaning- of this Bill1.If' a dairymnan produces milk and disposesof it to a factory or in any other warY thanias whole milk inl the mketropolitani area, itwill not ble deemied w ithin the meaning ofthe Act to have been produceed lby him.

Mr. 211 iIlN(;TON: The id 'ea that no(Ini r vuan is likely'x to be delicensed is uni-son rid. The producer-distribu tom' is a da irv-man, and he goes straight to his customerwithiout any~x Middleman. Under a systemof block delivery, such a mani must beatleeted. The '1oyval Comimission whichsat in 1925 went into the question of valuesbased onl production. They valued a milkround at C.5 per~ gallon per aiin.m It wouldhie less to-dayi.

The Minister for Agriculture: It wouldhle more to-day.

Mr. If TINCTON: There would haveto hie a re-valuation to-ay' . At that timeproduicers were getting Is. 7d. per gallon.and the induistry was iii a fairly stableposition. The Royal Coinisiom pnt. up1 ndefinite scheme involving the complete ire-organisation of distribution ili thlemtopolitaii area.

Hin. WV. T). Johnson: Was nlot onily onefmid provided for lby that Commission?)

Mr. IiiU INCTON: Yes. Provisionii was11mde for a levy. 'whereby comp11ensltion -wasto have been paid. The producer-distributoris anl important factor inl thle inldustry, . Ifthle hoard reorganmise the indutrytl. lie willcome inito the position as a vendor. le eami-not le ignored.

The Mlinister for Agriculture: Hfe is notliving ignored. Hit will bpeclass:ed as avemmdor.

Mri. AIl.LTNCITON: He wants to knowwhere tie emmes iii. Thme depm' keeper i- dl-o

2506

115 lDECEMBERH 1932.] 2.507

iii the Iitlili. 'There is a simspn-,oii thatfile boar mI aY dec-ide that all milk dstri-liated in) thle metiropolitan area, should bep aste vised - T heie is at least oiie depo~it iiiSouth Peith %%heie 11o pasteurisat ion is Car-ried out. That depot notmay be closed, anrdsome pr-ovision should lit made for come-pieulatioii in suc-h event. I quiestioni if thleboardl will lie coimpetemit to value such albusiiness as that.

The Minister tot- Agricimltnie : We willget the best qualified mien available.

Mr.- Ml LEINOTON : There will bec twomilk producers and two couiiuners- This isail iiipoitamii pait of the Bill. We lo notkiiow that thme board wvould lit sufficientlyex pert to hanidle business imatter's of th i.kind. PoI mj01 should be made for thea ppoinitmenit of assessors. Theie is at feel-ig of nervousness a msongIst those wvho elon-sider time- vina" be intterfered with.-

ell. A. MecCALI'M: A levy would berequii'ed onily up to such time as the iii-'lustr iv has. been placeed onl a solid footing!.A-fter that there would be no necessity foifinse. We hadl to relieve the Licensing- Board(,[ the necessity for iminposing a levy uponlicensed rb-tulalils.

Silting suspended front 6.1. iS Ic3-0p-n

lion- A. - MCAIJA'M : I should like tok;now fromt Ihe -Minlister whether he r-egar'dsthe levying of this percentage as neeessacyforl the (Imir rrzneii. )bi'iouslv it will not lereqluired for long, anid pecrsonulyl - do1( notthink it will lie req~uired at ll] foi the dairy-meni, lint only for the distributors. I shouldt()link that within two years, possibhiym"it kin12 mouths, this w-ork willI he coimpl eted andit will he no longei- neressar to lev'y tilspaym vient. So we had bietter- dec-ide w'hether-w'e should not leave it fom- the boarrl to sayif it w'ill be' required. or whether it w~ill benecessalry to liring- down a Bill to suspendit l ateir onl. The a mendimient is inteve 'vh :skeleton, leaviiig the details to reg-ulation. Ido not see how we c-mild set out thle fullschenie in a clanse. But there is the pointw~hetlier it will lie at all necessary for thedaii rylien. bc'ause the dai i-yilien if there beno diairy delicensed, will not benefit byx get-ting the trade that previously' belonged to-oineone else before the delicensing. Butthe (listrilintor certain lv w'ill benefit. So Ithink it canl only be deided by the board,

and shiould hle left to the dh-cretiox of theboard to impose it or not ats eirrutustanceswarranit.

Mr. THORN: I canl see a lot of sounjdrea son ing in thle honi. uina' c is a rgumin t.The State Dried Fruits Board has power atanyv time to strike at lexvy or to reduce thelet:V or to ciit it on t altogether, aco ringto circumstances. So I think it would bewise to consider the proposal put forwardIn the meimber for' South Freniantle.

Holl. AV. 1). JOHNSON: I believe wehave now at rairly- decent Bill, anad 1 do notwa~nt to interfere with its passage. Pin Tnot opposed to these two) funds. 1 believethere should be it loxv viL milk. We shallnever Oiriiilis froilt a distr'ibutiiig point ofview without ai comipensating- fund, but tilefund should be iaised by a levy' onin milk.Tlteic should be only one comnpensa tionfunid, andl that should Ile to coinpeinsatethose prevented from duii pctig the ser-vices that to-daY are panid for by the eon-siiieirs All the economics to Ile effectedwill be effected in the interests of theproducer. It is the pi-oducer thatwill get the ad viantage. The f-oi-511 ners, of course, will he b etter silerve.I do not expect a big reductionin milk, but the service will 1)e improvved,a nd I bl'ieve that if' we Mre a good bheardt(n- 'iunlit -v ',f the mnilk also will be imi-

proved. Still, all hel( advantages ini theway of' ecoliny w-ill I le enjoved by tine piro-diwecis. So it the produlcer- is to gpet theAdvanage of.' tile orgaunisation, the mailkshouild lie levied uponn in order to enalble theboarid to establi' Hile Ou-ianlisation. Tilelacpkv'stemi is essen tial for the boarid. The

duplication oif deliveries must Iie cut out,and tiudt -ini be dloine oniiv it: those vetaimedin tile busin'ess coiitriblute towairis thosethat go0 out of it. We cannot expect tlloseretaiiied in it to pa ' it all, but it (-an be soorwa ii ised thiat the' (-all contribute. It haslbeen emphasised that the oie fund will hieniore thuan sufficient, wileI the other pios-sibiY m ill Ihe insuichien t. We should makeat Icrv onl the commodity and give the board(1is eretioni arv powier to use it.

Mr'. lKeiiial Iv: Tlw- al-c to fix thedmniiium p1-ice to tie paid for- the coin-11nodit ,-.

Halon. W. 1). JOHNSON: That is so,.Ii~teild of havinir the two funds, we shouldhave thle one fun ni r-a ted by a levy on the

2508 fASSEMBLY.]

commnodity. Tie board wviil thus be enabledby thle fuinds at their disposal to get Nrceblock systemi goiag ait the earliest possibleinourent. Althtaugh we have amended theB il so a41s to give represetation to the Coll-sunrers, aill thle practical advantages of theinea~nm-e will go vo the producer-. Theref orethe only equitable basis upon which to raiserevenue is to put ai levy onl tile corrrmodit 'v.However, it hais lbeen left so late that I donot propose to go vrrx farther than to enterinyx protes4t. Wte mnight as well let the 3Mii-ister make a start with thle legislation, andthenr tie- session'l we vart lput it into shape.

Amendment puit and passed.

New ('luse:

The MIITRFOR Ali ITCUI'rVBE:I niQve-

That the following new clouse be inserted,to stand as Cltause 26--

Licenses in~- be comipensated in certaincases.

(1.) Whenever tiny person holding an;ylicense unrder this Act is, upon the ex-pirationl of sochl license, refused a -fresh.icense of thev saute Mild, and such refusal isc-onirined onl appeal when sim-li refusal is aji-lj'a ledl against, sun-h person unay, suhlt'tt tothe riegriltiorts. apply to the Board for pay-iniet to hint (if complensation in respect ofsrucli refusal, and the Board iny grant olrefuse suchI apl'ica~tijel.

(2.) Whnever coinpensation is grnited toanly m-vrsonl under this section, suc-h conipyensa-titahll h1'1 e paid oat of the ConipensationFund to which hie has contributed under sc-tion twc-ntv-five of this Act.

(3.) Whienever application is madl~e for- pay-ient of votiiistIion under this section,' sochl

applivation shall he hoard and deterinied bythe Board inl the mnanner prescribed by theregulationis; and if the appiicatioii is al)-proved the Board shall assess the amront ofc-oipcasation to be paid at sucl sumn as itthinks fair and equitable, having regard to

altihe cin-cuinstances of the case.(4.) Any applicant aggrieved by the re-

fusal of the, Board to granit comipenlsation, ordissatislied withl the amuount of conmpensation,'qas nvmesse b. 1we Board ioay, subject to theregulations, appe-al froim suchl refusal or suchtrssessoa-nlt to a residenit or poolice magistrate,or to a magistrate of a local court sittingwithin the ietropolitan area, who way eon-firin, revel-se or vary the decision of the Boardappealed front as ,ihall seen just.

Anietdil put and asl

lill reai nprte wiIxitbhi iut hr ani* rd-merit-, and1. thti repirri. adopted.

MOTION-DAIRYING INDUSTRY,ROYAL COMMISSION'S REPORT.

Standing Orders Sus~pension,

tOn 010 tioll by the t'ritnier 0ldeied--"Thfts0 muchel of th Standinig Orders be sus-pended as is necessary to enable a motiondealing wvith the report of the Royal Corn-mission onl the Dairying Industry in. theSouth-West to I'e taken into consideration

MR. J. H. SMITH (-Nels-on) [7.461:1move-

Thalit, in the opinioii of tbis H-ouse, the re-prt of tire Royal (olarnrissioit onl the dairyinigrnduttrx ill tile South-West should reeive theetirut-st tconsidleration of the Ciovernarent.

The Niova I Conrtiis~ion cotmpleted theirdeliberations tind furnished their report toRIL Excellency tire Governor irs February ofthis year. I believe the Iliouse, will rig-ree with.tire wheir I sax' tire cOinn~itssiot wrent to ag-reat deail of trouble and did excellent ser-vice. I an ertaili :i great amloirtt of goodhas reirlted even at this stage froni. theirde-liberations . I believe ii' we had searchedtire country far and wide we could not haecimproved on the pecrsonntel of the Commis-ston. I have to ioin issue writh my friend,the memiber for Bunhrurv, because, when htsp)oke oir tire Address9-in-reply, he said thatperhaps Mlessrs. Forrest and Brockrnan werElint exp~erts in the industry. Both thoscgenilenren were born oti the land. They an(the secotrd getieration of successful far-mer,and bhive lived in thre South-West all theirlives. Mr-. Forr-est is rettarded as the high('1-il tho- on astures. Ile it, in tlie %-inl"a nd w heir it ciilnes ito a qu esti on of pastines nil vnis~es. Mr. Broc-kinati was bontot) t ai 'ruv fariin, lie has been dariryinig niIli., life. rod to-da x-v is, milk ig at least 12(to 'r In w& ' Sri iix friend the arerub~er foiire 11-y wa rlg in his cointentio. I de

sieto draw the attentiotr of the House t4the lparlois conldition, of the dairying industry' , in fact, of all priniary industries to-daylrot only onl neonit of falling prices, bitaliso on account of over--eapitalisation ohroldings. T risk oreinibers to look at pageof the report whInh contain- the following-

Fwgvt int dairying under tire Agricolturrii-la irkare four ditererrt cln-te' aof settlersq:-

(ri) Soldier settit-i's n r,0ueu* "P 'Siunoder thei Agrietituiral H-ank rirLarnids lDeloirtmnrit.

2508

[15 DECEMBE1R, 1932.] 2509

(b) Soldier Settlets onl Crown and otherlands nuclei- tle Ag~riculturanl Bank.

(e) Agricultural Bank clients.(d) Group Settlers.Each of those c-lasses is working under

*li iferent conditions and paying different ratesof interest, whnile tile Soldier Settlers onl re-purchased estates are partly under a separateauthaoritv' , namte]r , tine Lands Department.

Nearly all the Settlers under (a), (b) and(d) are capitalised 100 per cent, onl presentvaluations.

Ninety-five per cent, of thle settlers refer-red to in paragraphIls (a), ( b) and (di) ininy opinion are over-enpitalised to the extentof .10 per cent. Valnations then were Is.6d. per Il. for butter fat, as against 10d.to-day' . and Ml. for baconers, as against 41/d.to-day. At the time when the commissionmtade their report, necarly .95 per cent, ofthe settlers mentioned inl parag-raphs (a),(b) and (dI) were over-en pitalised fully 50per cent. It will therefore be seen hlow inn-possible it is for those settlers to live andpay interest onl the present capital value oftheir holdings. I now comne to page .9 ofthe report. I shall not read the whole re-p~ort because T des ire to speak onl othermatters. I desire, however, to point out tothe Honie the official figures quoted by theexperts of the department, which show howvimpossible it is for these, settlers, with pre-sent prices and under present conditions,to pay their interest and have any securityof tenuare. The olliejal estimates of expendi-ture and income showing costs of produc-tion on a yield of 400 gallons of milk or160 Ilbs. of butter fat are, according- to thereport-

Mr. MeCay, Secretary for Group Settle-ment-

No. ofCowsin

Profit.

101.520

Net fIcomie after allowing forpayment of interest.

Milk Is. gall. Butter 1s. Il.C 5.

10011

d .O (loss).0 (profit).0 (profit).

£ s.so 033 1011 I0

d.O (loss).o (loss).0 (profit).

-Mr. Baron-Hay's figures are even worse thanMI % McCay's figures. The officers of theGroup Settlement Department state thatthe carrying capacity of these holdings is20 head of full-grown stock with their pro-geny. On a 20-cow basis they show a profitof £136 on milk and £11 10s. on butter afterpaying interest. How does the State expectthem to continue under those conditions? Icontend there must be a drastic writing-

[93]

(town of capital. I have sheaves of corre-spondence, but I do not propose to take upthe timle of tile I-ouse 1w read mu' it all.I shall read one or two letters9, beeause theya~re of vecry great importance. They showhow impossible it is for thle settlers to con-tinue, how heart-broken they are, as theLeader of the Opposition pointed out inconlnection with tile fairmers. They havenot the spirit to continue. There is onegood thin,,, however, that the commissionhas (lone.' It has stopped the Sending outby the Government, the Agr-ic-ultural De-lpartiwent, anud other de-partmnents, of thoseinternalI i nteie.'t notices. At il.is late stalgewe have tile ntoa-vngn of the AgriculturalBank int oringw these settlers that for thetext 12 noon ths at ]Last, so long as they

maintain the b)lnk's ecurityv, no notices willbe sent to themn. I received a letter onl 'Yesterday v rain thle secretairy of the dairyfatniers in that district, Stating-

Settlers incomes are still falling. Failingsome relief ineasurcs, Bank mrust nmaintainassets in futuire.

That means the settlers cannot maintain theassets mtortgaged to the bank. I have re-ceived similar letters from other organisa-tions, but these are tile important ones. Iwant to point out to the House the basisof this settlement scheme, why these settlersmigrated front the Old Country and estab-lished themselves on the group settlementsin the South-West. This is the basis of theschleme -

This scheme is primarily intended for mar-ried atol with fanmilies. Previous experiencein agriculture and the possession of capitalair not esseitial, but all the members of thefamuity must be in good health.

(a) The locality chosein has a good climateand aimple rainfall and is suitable for dairyfaruming, fruitgrcwing anad intensive culture.The (loverntent is principally concerned withmtixed farming, including dairy farming, andprovide financial assistance and expert adviceonl this subject. A good market for this pro-duce exists.

(b) Onl arrival, the family is allotted to aGroup, if this l,,s not been arraigcef-oresailing. A. Group consists of about 20 fault-ies. These families arc appointed to clear ablock of land sufficient to provide 20 farms,each from SO to 100 acres in extent. Ani ex-perienced Giovernient foreman is in chargeand generally supervises the Group until everyfamily is established oin a completed farm.All e;xpenflitur- is suet by GOn.erinent adl.vances.

(c) The land is granted free, except foroffice :itid Survey charges of about £E13. Tent.porary. housing accommodation is provided for

2510 [ASSEMBLY.]

fainilies oii arrival. Each miember of theGroup, i.e., the senior male of a family, candraw up) to 10s. a day for each day workeduntil lie is established onl a completed farnm;the total amno unt of wvages drawn to be repaidto tile Government.

(d) After clearing, fencing, etc., a house iserected, and the hldhing is halloted for by themembers of tile Group. Ton cows, one horseand plough and( pigs and poult ry arc advanced,and fornnal possession of the holding isgranted, subject to a mortgage to repay tothe Government the nioncy expended onl thepreparationi of the farm and advances madefor stock and equipment.

(e) The total amount of thle mortgage -williiot exceed £1,000, to be repaid within 30years. During the first live Years interestonly is paid, and( the printcipal, with interestadded, is repaid by .50 hallf-yearly instalments.

Hon. W. D). Johnson: Is that the groupsettlement scheme that you are reading?

Mr. J. H. SMITH: This is the schemeunder which the settlers migrated from theOld Country. It is embodied in the report.

(f) Free ed ucation is provided for thechildren, and a sick aiid accident fund is pro-vided to which miciii ers subscribe.

Hon. W. 1). Johnson: That is the originalmigration scheme.

Mr. 3. ff. SMITH: These are the condi-tions nuder- which the men came out fromthe Old Country. We claim that somethinghas to be done for them, and done veryquickly, if this industry is to be stab-ilised, and the settlers kept ontheir holdings. It is heart-breaking tothink that men, with their wives andfamilies, have been onl these groap settle-ments for at least ten years and are gettingfurther and further behind, without bootsto put on their feet, without bedding fortheir children, without blankets of ally de-scription, without food to put into theirmouths to keep body and soul together.That is the position to-clay', and it must bealtered. To my mind, these settlers are verymuch worse off than are the wheatgrowersof the State to-day.

Hon. P. Collier: If that is so, God helpthem!I

Mr. J1. H. SMNITH: The commission re-commends that boards should be constituted.1, do not know whether they wvill do muchgood at present. At one s tage, I thoughtthat the establishment of boards would be adesirable innovation, because they could dealwith the problems on the spot. The Comn-mission recommended that the board shouldeonsist of three persons, one repre-sentative of the settlers, a representative of

the Government, and an independent chair-manl elected for his knowledge of dairying.ind conditions in the South-West. ThleAgricultural Bank has anticipated thecommission's report in one direction, byappointing an officer in each of thevarious areas, with the exception of Den-mark. I do not think there is one there.The officers deal directly with the settlersand with the Agricultural Bank. Previously,that was not the case, and every little corn-platint had to go backwards and forwards be-twveen the baiik and the settlers. -The Gov-ernment have also appointed an officerknown as the district inspector or senior in-spector. His name is Mr. Pullen. Ihave nio knowledge of his qualifications, butfrom inquiries I have made I believe he isa man who thoroughly understands his work.He travels throughout the South-West anddeals with difficulties as they arise. Theyare many and varied. The hank informsme that Mr. Pullen is to a great extentbreaking down that feeling of hopelessnessabout which we have heard a great deal inthis House. Even to-day I should like to.see a board appointed because I believe itwould be better than having an inspector.There again the Royal Commission did goodwork. Until the Commission was appointedeviction notices were being sent out and(, asa result, indignation meetings were beingheld all ever the country. Especially was theindignation great in respect to the men andfamnilies who caine out under the agreement.Resolutions were passed at the meetings toresist the Agricultural Rank officials - evenby armed force if the eviction notices werepersisted in. Those notices were harsh, crueland wrong, and upset the morale of thesettlers. Since the appointmnent of the Com-mission. and probably through the good,offices of the Premier, who I believe madeovertures to the bank, the sending out oreviction notices has ceased. Thme feeling hasimproved] somewhat, but even to-day settlersare in the position of not knowing wherethey' stond. I claim that there is only onething to be done and that is for a definiteannouncement to be made. The settlers areentitled to live and they must have securityof tenure. The department have been bar-assinz the settlers continually for interest.On a holding eapitalised at £2,000, 51/ percent. interest means well over £100 a year.Some settlers have paid £10), £15 or £20 andhave starved their pastures to do so. Thebalance of the interest is an accumulation

[15 DECEMBER, 1932.)

to the capitalisation, and the increasing-burden becomes heart-breaking. If a settercannot pay his interest on the ordinaryeapitalisation, bow can he do so on a eapi-talisetion of £2,500?7 The Commnission re-commended that for men on a 10-cow basis-interest should he waived or funded for fiveyears; for men on a 1-9-cow basis, threeyears; and for men on a 20-cow basis, twoyears. When the present capitalisationis too high, it is useless to fund theinterest Arrears. Thle only way to re-vive the morale of the settlers and gi%;ethem ft feeling of security is by pro-riding that for five years, or untilprices improve, they will be exemptfrom all interest. That is the onlysolution of the problem, And if it isnot adopted, 95 per cent, of the settlerswill leave their holdings. At the termina-tion of the period there must he a revalua-tion ha'sed h what the industry canl payaccording to production. It is idle for alayman to say, "There is 100 acres which.should carry 'v30 cows and produce so muchbutter fat and so much income." The pro-dactivity of the soil is tile Only basis Onlwhich to fix the capitalisation. If we havemade mistakesi, and if group settlement hascost too much, it is of no uise blaming pre-vious Governments or previous Ministers.Blunders have been made. lIt is said that somuch money has been lost in group settle-ment, hut 1 claim it has not been lost. Wehave brought additional people into thecountry and values in the city have been

enhan01ced. While the Money wais being e.X-pended on group settlement, business wasbuoyant. Hay-street and other frontagesincreased considerably iii value, all due tothe land settlement policy. That money hasnot been lost and never will be lost. Wehave the asset for all time. 'What we wantis a happy, hard-working and contentedcommunity on the groups. The group set-tlers arc expleriencing great d ifficulies.They are working from 5 a.ni. to 10 p.n.,and there is nothing more arduous than thelife of a dairyman. The settlers need someencouragement. for the future, even if it isonly for their children. The money hasnot been lost; those settlers will he therefor all time and that will be a good thingfor the State. It is essential that the Go-,erment should make anl announcement onlthe question of waiving the interest for a-number of years. Mr. MeLarty, onl his last-visit to my district, announced that for 12

months thle bank would not expect any inter-est to be paid, so long as the settlers ma in-tained the security and worked well. Whythe 12 months? I think Mr. MeLarry spoiltthe Announcement by includling that period.The settlers are working anti are maintain-injg the security. When the Premier visitedtile district he was surprised at the addi-tional clearing that had been done. He saidhe could hardly credit it. That shows thatthe bank's security is being maintained. Iwant that period of 12 months eliminatedand forgotten, and I want the Governmentto announee that for the future the settlerscan i-est Assurer] that, provided they mnain-tamn the security- and work well, they willnot 1)0 interfered with, and] that they miayhave some hope of a rev-aluation later oii.The price of hotter fat has receded fromIs. 6r]. to 10d. There is no prospect of anyimprovement in prices for side-hunes suchas pigs. Potatoes are bringing 30s. or 40s.per ton. The settlers must have sonic seem]-ity of tenure, and the only way to ensureit is to value the holdings, at what they arereasonably worth. The mortgages averagefrom £1,800 to £2,000, hut some of them',even since the writing- down of valuations,stand at £29,600. Fancy a man onl a 10 or1-5-cow basis trying to carry A eapitalisa-tion of £2,600!I If a Omanl has 20 cows liecan keel) only 15 in constant milk. He wouldneed 25 or 26 cows to keep) 20 constantlymilking. Valuiations must be reduced to areasonable figure, and then every pouc$that a manl pays should lie a pound paid offthe debt on the property. To-day the set-tlers have no security of tenure, and that iswhere the shoe is pinchling. Let ine illus-trate the position of one settler. I havetaken one of the best settlers and, if inemm-hers desire it, I am prepared to give hisname. Last year his income was under£200, and his outgoings for super and formaintaining the faria, hut not including liv-ing- expenses, amounted to £065s. Thatsettler has a large family and a son of 23is helping him. That shows thle imposisi-bility of a settler continuing under existingconditions. The Government should makeon aniiouuceenent that they are going togive SuICh1 a omail a chance. I think Parlia-mneat would Approve of that. I do not be-lieve that any member is undesirous of thegroup settlers remaining onl their holdings.When I wtas down there recently, I told thmesettlers that the report of the Conmmissionwold be broug11ht LUp for discussion. I told

212[ASSE-MBlY.]

them 1. did not believe that there was asingle member who wvould not do all inhis lower to alleviate their distress.I told them that members realisedthat the country looked to the primary pro-ducers to Pull[ -the State out of its d ifficul-ties. That applies to producers of whNeat,wool, fruit, dairy produce and, in fact, allprimary producers. The difficulty must besurmounted in some way. Even if we haveto go to the Loan Council and borrow moneyin order to keep the settlers onl their hold-igs, it must he dlone. There are many set-tlers who hare not got 1.0 cows in milk. Thewhole scheme we have been endeavouring tobuild up for years has gone byv the board.Mafny settlers are maintaining decrepit stockbought 'at such fahulous prices as £-17 and£C18 per head. That stock has decreased invalue 70 per cent. It would he impossiblenow to get £E4 per head for many of thecows that cost £E18, but the settlers hold onto them for the reason that they must havebread and butter. Big prices were paidfor pedigreed bulls in the hope of buildinguip the herds, but much of that money hasbeen -wasted because the settlers are comi-pelled to sell the progeny. They have tosell it to get sufficient upon which to liye,and thie value of the pedigreed stock is beinglost. There is no system in operation; -weare just hanlginig onl by the skin of o~urteeth. Then there is the question of sterilityin cattle. When I spoke in the House pre-viously, the Premier said there was no ster-ility and( no wasting disease in that district.I have evidence to prove that sterility doesexist, that the people are hard uip againstdifficulties, that time after time they get noresults, and consequently they have no in-conic. [ do not wish to occupy the time ofthe Huse unnecessarily. I 'sh~ould like thleGoverinment to give us sonic guarantee thatthe settlers will be maintained on their hold-ings. We do not wvant to maintain any se-t-tler who is not a trier. I am satisfied thatthe nien who have been onl their holdingsfor 10 years are triers, but they are broken-hearted. The sons and daughters of groupSettlers deserve consideration. Because thefather happens to hold a piecee of landl, thesons and daughters cannot get work or ams-tenance outside the holding. That is adreadful thing. They are endeavouring to ekeout anl existence without sustenance. Whatis more degrading than the spectacle of a

faintly with young men of from 18 to 24yearts of age and girls of similar ages notbeing able to go out and enjoy company orattend functions, because they have noclothes to wear,

Mr. Withers: They can join the nudists.

Mr. J, H. SMITH: Quite so, but we didnot bring those people out from Britainfor that purpose. Not only people fromloverseas, but many Australians as well areendeavouring to carry on but without hope.They cannot see anything ahead of them.'Men well known to the Leader of the Oppo-sition and other members as hard workers,good honest men, are downhearted. Theycannot see any future for their sons anddaughters. That is why I am so gratefulto the Prenier for having appointed a Roy' alCommnission whose report has been placedbefore uis. I direct the attention of mem-bers to the statements made by AMr. Grogan,Mr. Johnson and Afr. MAeCorinack. Thosegentlemen based their valuations on butterfat at is. 6d. a lb., with pork and other sidelines in additioni. To-day the price of but-ter fat is 10'/._d. a, lb., and it may fail belowthat figure. In those circumstances, valua-tions should be reduced as well. To-day theexorbitanit valuation represents an averageof £1,800 and on that amount interest, hasbeen accruing at rates of 7 per centt. andlater .5/ per centt. That indebtedness wvillbe built uip until in a few year1s timeC, thecaipitalisaition will bie b)etwedei £C2,000 and£3,000. No wonder the settlers are dis-heartened and their mlorale gone. Every-thing is blaick for them. Onl 'y yesterday Ireceived a telegram from sonme of the set-tlers saying it was impossible for them tomaintain the banik's security. Of courset is imnpossible to dlo so. These men

are at their Just gasp. The soldiersettlers a re in as band a positionas the group settlers. They have notbeen able to pay interest and never -will.What I have said regarding group settlersaplIies to mnany on tie wheat, belt as weltand sonietliing should be iloue to) relievetheir position. I do iiot dec-ire to say auny-thiing- further. I ant thankful for the oppor-tunlity to place these niaten before the1-ouse and] I coimmendi the report. of theRoyal Coniission to the earmest considera-tioni Of the RouIe. We sh1ould See to it thatsomnethinig is (lone in the ijitere-;tts of people

2512

[15 DEFCEMBER, 1932.] 21

who have been struggi big for a long time,so that they may ble able to cariy on.

HON. P. COLLIER (Boulder) [8.20]The member for Ncklvo 01r. H1-. Smith)should hie most grateful to thle House.

Mr. J. 1-I. Smith: I am.Hon. P. COLLIER: He should be grate-

fill to mhem bers for haiving agreed to thesuspension of the Standing Orders to permithim to make an electioneering- addrtess toh)is cotnstitue~nts.

Mr. J. H. Smith: I hope I did not dothat; it was not umy intention.

Hon. P. COLLIER: Of course not! Wecal aqcuite iunderstandl the hon. member wouldnot have that in his mind ! The mnotion liemoved sugg-ess that thle report of the RoyalCommission he given consideration. That isa %,ery definite notion. 'T le report can beconsidered by the miere reading of it.

Mr. Withers: The Government have beenconsiderng it for months.

Hon. P. COLLIER: The report could bleconsidered by merely reading it, with nosubsequent action whatever. Where has thisRijp VTan Winkle been all this time? Thereport is dated the 1.0th June, 1132. j113tsix months ago.

Mr..j. Jr. Smith : It is not my fault thatthe matter has not been dealt with before.I have asked for the opJpoitunit v.

Hlon. P3. COLLIER: We shall see. Eversince the sesion commenced the hon,. mem-ber has had anl opportunity to discuss thisreport. Ile could have done so thoroughlyon the Address-i n-Reply, and duning theBudg-et debate when the Estimates of thleAgricultural Department or the Lands De-partmnent were before us. 'Not one word didthe hon. member utter with regrard to theRoyal Commission's report to indicate thleappalling conditionsq that he has now re-ferred to. He did not say one word regard-ing the position of people who are affectedby the Commission's report. Like old RiplVTan Winkle, hie has been sleeping and hehlas Come before as With all the whiskersof that notable character adorning him, torevive the matter practically at tile close ofthe last week of the session. He has made itthe occasion for delivering an address to hiselectors.

Mr. J. H. Smith: Wi~hat did you doearlier this evening'7 Did vou qit do thatyourself ?

Hon. P'. COLLIER: No. I was not speak-ing, to the electors; I "'as speaking forp eople ini constituencies w'here we shallhave no candidates at the next election.That is the difference between my speechthis afternoon and the hon. pieniher'sutterance to-night.

Mr. J. H. Smith: So you say.Air, SPEAKER. Order!

H-on. P. COLLIER: Yes. Be silent fora moment. I listened to the hon. member'storrent of electioneering stuff poured outfor the benefit of his electors. His speechwas nothing less. Where has he beensleeping during the last six months? Whathollow log dlid hie crawl into? How hashie looked after the interests of the peoplew*ho are suffering fronm the disabilitieslthat he hais stressed this evening? Theyhave been suffering' during the last sixmonths and their Parliamentary represen-tative has been silent! Since Junie, whenthe Commission's report was presented, thehon. member has slept, unconcerned aboutthese unfortunate people's troubles anddifficulties. After six months' silence, hewakes up and finds it necessary to sa ysomethingI to enable him to face his eon-stituents in a few months time with a re-quest for their votes. That was the wholeslim and substance of the hon. member'sintention. No doubt his r~marks wvill beprinted in the local Press. I know thatthle hon. member generally gets his re-mairks broadcast and they are, of course,his speeches.

Mr. IT. H. Smith: That is a deliberatemis-statement.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!'Mr. J1. H. Smith: A deliberate nic-4tate-

men t.Hon. P. COLLIER: Thle hon. member's

remarks will be printed and broadcast soas to indicate to the constituents what avaliant lit hie has put up for them-onthe last dlay of the session, so to speak.I admire the hardihood of a member of'this House. wvho. after remaining silentfor six months, ean come forward, as themember for Nelson has done this evening,with a speech calculated to impress hisconstituents with the valiant fight he has9put tip.

,%r. Kennmeallyv: Another case of Hra-tills on the bridge

Hon. P. COLLIER: Horatiqis was notin it with the member for Nelson. It is

2513

2314 [ASSEMBLY.)

timie this sort of thing was exposed. Whathas the member for Nelson been doingduring the past six mc'aths9

Mr. Panton: Getting his speech ready.Honi. P. COLLIER: There have been

miany bpportunities for a discussion of theComissuion 'a report, but the lion. memberhas not taken advantage of them. To-night hie has craved the indulgence of theHouse at the last moment.

The Minister for Works: Surely not onthe last day.* Hon. P. COLTIER: Perhaps not exactlyonl the last day, but thle member for Nel-son secured the suspension of the StandingOirlers in order to enable him to movethis motion. It is a matter of urgcncy now.

Mi. J. H. Smith : Do von not agree thatit k~ urgent?* Hon. P. COLLiER-:' as it not hi,enl ur-

geit right through the last six months?Th ig is democracy! I ami almost losingconfidence in political de:mcracy when Ifind that there can be hioodwinking andblaffing, in this mianner. That is whathas been taking place. Lacking entirelyany sincerity, the nmember for Nelson I .g-nores his neglect of a matter that affects,as hie says, a large section of those he re-presents, and brings his motion forwvarJTalmost on the last day of the session. Andin doing so, lie makes a purely electioneer-ing speech which wilt be broadcast in orderto delude those unfortunate, unsophisti-cated people who believe in him. Hesay' s the Government must make some an-nouncement regarding the Commission'sreport. Is hie going to do anything if theGovernment ;do not make an announce-nient? What kind of announcement doeshie want the Government to make? Thenlie said that he was grateful to the Pre-mier for appointing the Royal Commission.What has resulted from the labours of theRoyal Commission!I

Mr. -I. H. Smith: A great deal of good.Hon. P. COLLIER: Then why is the lbon.

in6m'her complaining now? He had a lotto ,say about the 20-cow basis of produc-tion onl thle groups, but it seems to me thatthroiurho,,t his speech he had one ideal only-a 20-vote basis.

,Mr. J. H. Smith: That is your opinion.Heni. P. COLLIER: It was transparent.Mr. J. Hf. Smith: You are entitled to your

Opinion.

Hon. P. COLLIER: And I do not speakfor anyone else. Having regard to tbe factthat the member for Nelson had not men-tioned the report or dealt with it in anyshape or form since it was presented sixmonths ago, I ani justified in sayig thatthe basis of his remarks was one of 20 votes.That is whbat influenced him. No doubt theGovernment will make some announcement.I (10 not know that it wvill be made by theGovernment, but certainly an announcementwill be made by the hon. member himselfonl behalf of the Government. He will makethat anlnouncement wvhen he starts his elec-tioneering in a month or two, and he willpretend to speak for the Government, andsay "This is going to be done; that is going

tbe done?' Of course he will he sure thatthe Government will do this and will dothat. Anyway I shall be interested to knowlust what announcement the Government willmake in response to the hon. mnember's aip-peal. After all, the motion merely asksthat the matter be given consideration. Itdoes not even suggest that effect be givento the recommendations of the Royal Coin-mission. If he had moved earlier in thesession, he could have followed it up by say-ing, that if the Government did not giveeffect to the recomimendations or part of therecommendations of the Commission, hewould take action. But he merely moves thisinsipid, watery motion, that the Governmentgive consideration to the commission's re-port.* Of course the Government will giveit consideration, and I suppose seine anl-nouncement will be made in due course, whenthe hon. member starts electioneering in amonth or two.

MR. MCLARTY (M1urray-Wellington)[8.34]: 1 am glad that the opportunitylhasat last been given us to discuss the reportof the Royal Commission. I am sorryindeed that it "'as not discussed earlier inthe session. If we had been able to dealwith it sooner Somec advantage would havebeen gained. I disagree entirely with,those who are of the opinion thatthe commission should never have beenappointed. I am not in the least sorrythat I supported the appointment: infact I am pleased, and I think thatthe commission justified itself. Surelysome benefit ,lust be derived from a rep~ortthat is so comprehensive. The memlbers ofthle commission did put in a considerableamount-of work, as is shown by the report.

[15 DECEMBER, 1032.]151

They took evidencee fronm :37 officials, 142group t~tlers, 62 soldier arid AgriculturalRank settlers. 20 representatives of' butterfactorie5, and) milk distributer.,, and 50others. Many u% ho eai'e evidence areamongst the most practical dair ''mnen in theSouth-West. The report is an excellent onewhich should prove serviceable, but at thesariep time I am disappointed that it doesviot contain more about the near g-roups; atthe Ieel, Rlatezuan, and Doolette Estates.Certainly there is one iimpoi-tant feature thatthe re~port recognises, and it is that a boardshould he appointed to deal with matters as.they affect the groups. Some time ago I in-troduced a deputation to the Premier. Itwvas arranged by the Fremnantle MurnicipalCouncil, and was accomipanied by all theroad boards that were interested in the PeelEstate. The deputation asked that effectshould be given to that part of the reportwhich advocated the appointmnt of -theboard. The Prenrier was asked that threepractical farmiers with a knowledge of loeatconditions, together with a hydraulic en-gieer and at field supervisor should consti-flute the hoard, to inquire into the workingof the Peel Estate with thle object of put-tinig settlers there on a sound basis. Thatwas thle effect of' the Commission 's recoin-mendation and] we merely asked the Premierto carry it out. 'Unfortunately we havenever received a reply to) the request wemade, although it is some considerable timiesince the deputatron waited upon the Pre-iinier. I would he glad if the Premnier wouldag-ree. to appoint this; board as early as pos-sible. The report said that the position ofthe Peel Estate settler~s was serious. Butthere has not been any improvement. Asa matter of fact the position has becomeworse, because prices have continued to fall.Take the price of butter fat. Choice creamis bringing 10'/2d., first grade I OVM., andsecond grade T1Ac-,i. This not only affectsgroup settlers, hut all engaged in the indus-t ry. Really the prices are absurd. 'Mr.M~cCormrrck, who was one of the members(of the hoard to make the revaltuations. sairi-this is reported in thre evidence given byMr, Grogan before the Royal Conrlliirs;Mon-that when butter fat fell below Is., groupsettlements could be wiped out as an intereAtpaying proposition. As I have just said,the prices to-day are niuch below Is. AnAgricultural Bank official who gave evidence

said he doubted very mnuch whsether the set-tiers could meet their obligations on a eaili-tal debt of 9L.500 with buitter fat at2We must face the positiou. The averagedebt of the groups is about £1,600 per hiol d-ig. [t is certainly not1 le's . I is agr~e

byv the bank ofli. -alsI have gon.a throughlrc ir evidence curefully-that the interestcannot be met whviile the present prices py-vail. The commuission rectognised that inl-terest inust be reduced to, I think, 5 percent. We know that the Glovernment aresympathetic in that respect, and wvill do allthey possibly cair to bring about the reduc-lion. T[he Plremier has repeatedly told uisthat eases will be treated on their inerits. But-is there arc thousands of eases to deal with,it will be a long time before finality isreac-hed. There is no question about it thatif the settlers are to have a chiance of site-eeding,' they must have security of tenure.

As the ncmher for Nelson said, there is afeeling of uncertainty anrongst group set-tlers to-day. When one settler retCives anotice of foreclosure, the other settlersaround him wonder what is going to hap-pen next. No settler cai] earry onl unlesshie has some hope for the future, and he cer-tainly cannot have any hope withoutsecurity of tenure. It is e-ssential that. everyfarmer should work to a plan, and there-foire an announcement from the Premier onthme subjeet of security of tenure would bewelcome. It means either carrying on -orthe collapse of the whole schemec. Ifsecurity of tenure is given, it will put freshheart into the settlers. A number of themare trying to make good. There are very fewwasters or undesirables left amongst thea'roup settlers to-day. The commission pointout that only 50 out of 1,700 group settlershave paid their interest in full. I do notthink anyone will argue that there are only50 good settlers in the whole of the groupsettements, and 1,650 had ones. These fig-ures; should indicate to the House how sei-ous the position is. The more considera-tion members give to the question of groupsettlement, the more must they become con-vinced that the position of the dairymen to-day is as serio'us as that of any other pri-mary producer in the State. It has beenasked in connection with group settlementwhy the settlers do imot go in for side-lines.f do not think any Govern ment official wouldcare to advise any settler to-day as to thesiide-lines he should 'try to produce. Take,

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2516 [ASSEMBLY.]

for instance, potatoes. Suppose settlershad gone in for potato-growing. Whatwould the position have been this year?When I was in thle Harvey district recentlyI was taken out to see some potato patches,and I saw one of the heaviest crops in thedistrict. It averaged 11 tonis of marketablepotatoes to the acre, butt the price (lid notaverage £3 per toll, and nmany ;%as soldat £2 0ls. per toll, so that the growershowed a loss oil his 10 acres. Toprove whether side-lines were profitable ortrot, members of the commission visited themiarket, and came to the conclusion that theywvere unprofitable. Settlers are afraid toemabark upon any side-lines that necessitatethe outlay of money. Exceptional circum-stances demand exceptional treatment. Itis no use allowing the situation to drift; itmust he faced immediately. Interest arrearsaire mounting up, and the wvhole thing isgoing from bad to worse. Settlers are hop-

ing to obitain some benefits ats the result ofthis, report, particularly in the matter ofsecutrity of tenure. Whlen the Royal Coml-mission was first mooted, it was thought thatthe settlers would be unisettled by the thoughtof time benefits they might get from it. Theydlo expect to derive some advantages, and Ihope they will (10 so. The report containsrecommendations which should I' most help-full if they are put into oper.ation. Thletorniiniss ion set out with the idea of makingu.,oful and practical suggestions, and in quiteat numnber of eases they have d]one so. Theauthorities agree that the failure to pay in-terest in the great majority of cases is duieto the fall in the price of butter fat, whichis too low to enable the settlers to payeither interest or interest on interest. Itmany bie said that this is an inopportune timeto maake r-evaluations, and that this shouldlie left until times improve. We do not knowwhen that implrovement will come about;there is not much indication of it now. It14 time we dlid somethiing to adjust valua-tions. The report also advocates that groupsettlers should go in for apple growing asa side-line. That does not appuir either tothe Peel or1 Batemnan Estates. The conmis-sioners do not say whiat side-Ihics should lieadopted there. They recoimiend that no fur-ther large sumns of nmoney should be spentott drainiing the Peel Estate. That is a seri-oils Problem. From the southern boundary(if the Peel Estate to the -Murray is a dis-tanee of 25 miles, and in that distancethere is a fall of only 10 feet. This

shiows the difficulty of draining the land.Thle chief hydraulic engineer (M.Nr.Crimip), estimated that the swamps wouldsink another three or four feet. The settlersoit the Richar-dson swamp originally hadabout 20 acres of swvamp land, whereas to-da~y they have only eight acres. The bankofficials agree as to the correctness of that.Tnt 1930 they came to the conclusion thatsome of these settlers should be moved, andthat those who were dispossessed shouldhave ant opportunity to take ip other hold-mngs. We have had deputations and in.spcetions and a. definite promise that some-thing should he diomne with RichardsonS wamip, but nothing has yet been done.The settlers are still struggling along, anddo not know what is going to happen. Theycan get nothing definite from the Governm-ment despite the fact that the bank officialshave agreed that there is no hope for themwhere they are, an& that some of themshould be moved. It is also agreed thatthose who are left should be allowed to linkuip with other holdings in order to increasethle area for cultivation. It is time some-thing definite was done, and I hope tilepromise will yet be fulfilled. MandogalupSwvamp is in much the same position asRichardson Swamp. The board wvhich it is

proposed shall deal with the Peel Estate, assuggested in the report, is also asked to g.-into the question of areas. In view of thefaulty drainage system, that is essential.At preseit, particularly in the low-W in'-country, less and still less land is being cut-tivated. It will be necessary to give addedareas in man;' instances. The report fav--ours the idea that settlers who are in a par-ticular zone, and go in for some breed ofcattle apart from that which is specifiedfor the zone, should receive some [jelp). Ifa inan fa vaiurs *Ierse~vs, S horithorins. Friesi -ans, or any other b~reedl, lie should be ent-couraged to stick to that breed. He shouldnot be penalised for doing- so. Oin one partof thle groups it is claimed by the dairyexperts that the creamn fromt the Guernseycattle is of a colour that is detrimientall tothle ce port trade. That is rather serious. Ihope the position r-egarding the -tone systemw-ill be revised.

The 'Minister for Agriculture: The Gov-erinnmant have to find the mnmey for dhibulls, and we wvant to make thle best use ofthem. Otherwise the inonev will hie wvasted.

,Mrt. McLARTY: The b~est use earl hemnlde of the mioney by allowing breeders

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[15 DECENMBER, 1932.] 21

to go in for tile breeds they most fancy.The report also refer; to the control Of thebutter side of the indus.-try. I am not goingto say anything about whole milk.

Hon. A. MeCallui: That problem isSol ved.

Mr, IfeljARTYf: I hope so. The buttersishould also he controlled. The price

of butter fat is fixed by the factory owners,and prolueirs lhave no representation onlthe butter board. 'It is said that if pro-dur-ers are given representation, thle priceof hotter tat will not be increased.

The 'Minister for Ag-ricullure : It is nota stathtory board.

Mr. MleLARTY: Thle report suggests thleformation of at statutory h oard. It wouldcreate at feeling of satisfaction amongst pro-ducers if they- were represented on the board.I au invertir ithant it woculd( tend m to help iOlieindustry, as well as the State if suich repre-senitatton was given. I notice that a meet-ing- of' the ]lutter Council will shortly heheld in Mlelbourne. That council consistsentirely of factory, managers or- factoryowners, and no producers will be repro-twetted. That. will not create much confideneamnongst the producing- section. The inem-her for Nelson (Mr. J. HT. Smith) referredto the suiggestion in paragraph 53 of thereport concerning the enapi talisation of in-terest.

MrIt. J,.11. Smith: I said it should bewaived.

-Ar. Mc-LAlTX: I know the Governnenitare synipathetic inl the matter. The reportStates-

Evidence was given by settlers, especiallyfarmners and business ina supported by mostof the bank officials, that interest could notbe paid at present without doing damnage tothe State's assets, and tile sudden demand forinterest oil the part of the bank had nnncrvedthe settler and destroyed his outlook andmorale.- After matking a thorough exanina-tion of the position. your commissioners mnustconfirmi this view.

Interest and compo~iund interest continue tomount uip. I hope the Premier will make anearly .statemient onl the matter. The memi-her for Neksou. referred to the valuie toWestern Australia of group settlement.Thk, has bteen responsible for the manybutter factories inl the various districtsand(. helped in the establishment ofcondensed milk factories. It was cer-lainly t-esponsible for the establishment,

of our ciii; chetese fac7tory. It ledto the inmportation of a1 great deal of goodstock into the State,. and gnrlyassisted

in thle establishmuent oft our dairying. inlditl-try. It cannot be allowed to drift away-, andjlu14 he kept g-oing. With Sympathetictreatment and eneouragetnt I believe itwill vet prove cit great advantage to thle.State. The Ag-ricultural Bank settlers gen-erally airc in thie saime position as the groupsettlers. T lexv ate payving a sriilar rateof intorest. 'rheY htave to [atmfalling pic-,a1111d t hie IiIi nulties of thle wvi ~P settler, art,also theirs . Agricultural B3ank settlers en-gaged inl dair-Ying inl tile South-West aireaniIous about their secur'ity Of tenure.Tht-v maiollt varry onl suc'-essfull v unless,.they are aszlured on this point. There aremianl abanidotied groutp holdings onl whichpeo])le are now settling, hut unfortuniately-going- onl the areas with veryv little mnoney.f hope the Lands Department will deal gen-crolyl with, those people, for it is farbetter to have soineone on those blocks pro-ducing somlething- and making, a living thanto have them abandoned and lying idle.

MR. BARNARD (Sussex) [9.03. SinceI was the inenibet- who ioved for. the apl-piiinttn'Put OFt tile ItoYa Commission, II shouldlike to have sOttiethlitig tci Say- onl its report.Tile reascon why , that report was not dis-cqsavil oil tile Aclmress-in-rc1)Iv wasq that wveWere PltOt iisd Hi a n ' I opwrtui iv wumn Id 10Pgivenl later: t-c it i- ltt ile rak of theoIucia bet- for Nelson [h, t la theop0itLtycomnes at this late hour in rite ssincannot a-gree with the rvmimt in, 1n-err' par-licular. Sonic of the melm-omtnet i hiti atevery good, limt others; do ]lot appeal to meI.WVhen moving for- the appoitment of the13) uy:tI C'onini:-i~On I thorit it wvould beoif considerable hetieit to the settlers; antiaissmstaime to the Ag-icultut-al Bankl. OnePthaiiw in the i-epor-t that I wish to protest

aainlst is the classing of settlers as aigitator-,T do not think that is fair-, for every* set-tier itho considers aim in~ius;tcc( ha-. beetndone to bite should have the nighit to put uplhis ease, and if he is not able, to (1o it himi-self, should1 have the tig1ht to gcet a friendto attend to it for him, Bitt tinder the Coiln-mission 's report, an) 'body asslvisting& a settlerin that way would probably be classed as*an agitator and put off the gproup; Afew weeks agop a settler told mie he wasanxious to put uip a matter to the bank in.-

251

2515 ASS]7MABLY.]

Spector, b1i Was afraid that if lie did so hemnight be classed as an agitator. 'We do notwant that feeling to exist between the in-Spector and the settlers, for it is essentialthat a. settlecr should he able to ask the ad-vice of an inspeetor. I agree. that interestshould lie uispcinded for a time, because Iam satis&'l- that no settler with fewer than20 cows L in a positioin to pay interest.Such a man should be assisted until hie isable to pa-y his interest,

T Nr. Panton drew attention to the state ofthe House.

Bells rung and a quorum formed.

Mr. BARNARD: Some security shouldbe given to the settler so that he will beencouraged to carry on his work, At pre-sent the settler is afraid to open his mailfor fear there might be an eviction noticeissued. The recomnmendation as to mnowershas been attended to. The member for Mt.Magnet the other evening remarked that Ihad said I dlid not agree with the reportof the previous Royal Commission, I cer-tainly 'did not agree with the whole of thatCommission!-- report, but I maintain thathad the Government carried out the recomn-mendations oif that Commission hundreds ofthousands of pounds would have been savedto the country.

The, Minister for Works: Probably mil-lions.

Mr. BARINARD: One of the recommienda-ions with which I did not agree was the

clearing contracts, resulting in the settlersbecoming contractors and neglecting theirfarming operations. In consequence of thatthe schemu as a whole sultered. However, weare now concerned with the present, not wvith.the past. Obviously, we should do all thatis possible to keep the men on the land.The member for Aft. Magnet the other even-ing conideinned the appointment of the chiefinspector of the Agricultural Bank in theSouth-West, Mr. Pullen, and stated that thatoffier did not know big job and had let theMinister down. I regard Mr. Pullen as oneof the li officers the group settlcinentsever had. lie was a hard-working man andnever spared himself, but unfortonately hisadvice wa, not taken. Had his advice beenaccepted, ninny thousands of pounds wouldhave been saved. However, instructions wereissued from Perth office, and accordingly theadvice oIf the field officers was not taken.Some of these officers had carried out what

they thought; to be correct work but in dis-obedience to orders fromn Perth, and theywere sacked for having done it. NMr. Pullenleft gr-oup settlement and applied for an-other position, and I believe it was onlybecause he was disheartened with the waygroup settlement affairs. were going. Withall due respect to the friend of the lion.member whom lie would have liked to seeappointed, 1 think the better man wvas sel-Lett]. The niwniber for Mlt. Magniet was incontrol of group settlement for about thrceyears, during which time lie was responsiblefor ai fair amount of~ waste and so should heprepared to accept a share of the blame.He appointed a highly paid board, and ifthe work was not done to his satisfaction heshould heve insisted on the board having, itcarried out, Then another hoard was ap-pointed to revalue the locations, and millionsof pounds were wiped off the capitalisation.'Mr. Grogan, hefore the Royal Conmmission,stated that tine values were based on whatthe locations would be -worth in three years'time when worked up to the capacity of20 cows. At that time butter fat was worthfrom is. 4d. to is. Gd. and pigs from Gd.to 8d, per lb). To-day butter fat is downto 101/d. When 'Mr. Grogan was asked byMr. Forrest had lie anticipated the fall inthe price of butter fat, he said lie reinem-bered having made a statemient to othermembers of the board that they might havdto face a reduction in the price to 10d.Another member of the valuation hoard saidthat when it fell below Is. they -.could haveto wipe off group settlement as an interest-paying proposition. I am sure if that, boardwere asked to value the properties to-day,the values would he considerably writtendown. The member for M'vt. Magnet said ziehad received many letters from group 6et-tiers but hbad not answered any of them.Perhaps that was because, since he could notbe of much assistance to them while he wasMinister in control, lie certainly could notbe of much assistance to them to-day.

Hon. P. Collier: That is a very unfairstatement to make.

Mr. BARNARD: I think tIe Leader ofthe Opposition also has received letters fromgroup settlers, and I know that the memberfor South Fremantle and other mnembersrhave received such letters. I myself havereceived them, and I presume we shall allcontinue to receive them until the settlersare more contented. The member for Nelson

2518

[15 DECF11ase, 1932.] 21

has been accused of putting uip an election-eering speech. I have never heard more eec-tioneering speeches since I have been inParliament than 1 have heard during- thissession. They have comec fromn at q'arter ofthe House quite Opposite to ours, so I dIOnot think we can be accused of bein thechief offenders. Before the Leader of theOpposition cattle into the Chamber jus~t now,I explained that we had not discussed thisiRoyal Commission's report onl the Address-in-reply because we had been promnised anopportunity to discuss it later.

Hon. P. Collier: You have wailed for sixmonths, been asleep for six mm)nibs.

Mr. BARNARD: Not alone.l. P. Collier: NO, you have a lot of'

your friend,; around you.Mr. BARNARD: I think the Agricultural

Bank is endeavouring to do its best in theinterests of the settlers. Since the report ofthe Royal Commission has been brought intbiners have been brighter, and I feel thatif the hank interest were suspendeld for sometimne conditions would improve won derfutll y.

On motion by 'Minister for Lands, debatea djou rued.

BILL.-LOTTERIES (CONTROL).

Seond Reading.

Debate resumed from the 153th November.

MR, MARSHALL (Ifurehison) [9.143:-Thtis is one of the most important Bills in-troduced this sessiou. I sympathise withthle Mfinister, "-ho finds iinmlf betweentwo fires- Insofar as he desires toset uip sonic control over lotteries, I agreewith him. The only objection I have to theBill is that I do not agree with the forniof control the Minister desires. I considerthere should lie State control, and not con-trot by anl independent board. It shouldbie a. State mionopoly. The Bill does notprovide as a pr~evious similar Bill did, forthe abolition of what I may termn petty orsmall sweeps or art unions or lotteries. Theeffect of the measure, if passed, will 1)e thecreation of a board to regulate and controllotteries or sweeps to the number of 15 perannum. Those are to be State-wide sweepsor lotteries. Under thle same law, it willthen he possible to hold smaller sweeps andsinIler lotteries within prescribed areas.Instead of these small, petty sweeps beingabolished, they will be permitted to continue,

and we shall have the saine objectionablefeatuires prevailing in the future as pirevailto-day. An institution desiring to conducta small sweep within the city or the mietro-politan area can do so, provided it is c~on-ducted within a prescribed area. Thle onlything- the board wilt do will he to contr-ol.the 15 swveeps mentioned in the Bill. I dif-fer from the views of mnany people whocontend that sweeps and lotteries are viciousin principle and injtu-ious to the mnoral and(spiritual welfare of the community. I canl-not see that the taking of a ticket in) a sweepor lottery or the putting in of crosswordpuzzle coupons is as inj urious to the moraland sp~iritual welfare of the community as.a number of l)eople Would make out. I haveasked many people, including members sit-ting- alongside me, what objection there canbe to these crossword puzzles. All those towhom I have spoken o~n the subject have.,imply- coinplnined about the niunber ofpeople walking along the footpath and wait-ing in queues at newspaper offices to putin their coupons. That is all they say.W~hat is there objectionable about that !What is wrong writh people walking alongthe footpath in great numbers? 9 hat isthe objection to people putting in coupons?I can go into the streets on certain days ofthe week and find queuies of 'peo-ple occupying thle whole of tile foot-path in front of the Economic Stores, Foyand Gibsons, Bonas, Ahierns and other emi-poriums. Those people push me off thefootpath in their eagerness to go intothose emporiums, where they are exploited.But no one objects to that. That is quiteall right.

The Minister for Lands: You are outtoo early in the morning.-

Mr. -MARSHALL: That is besidd thlequestion. I do not want the M1inister'kihumorous remnarks. I do not take veryseriously the people w-bo object tosweeps and lotter-ies. I hard' heard itstated that it is a bad thing, morallyand spiritually, for a young persomito take a, ticket in a sweep. Again Idisagree. I contend-that if a person, maleor female, is a victim of gambling, thenno law this Parliament or any other Par.lianient. may make trill. save that victim.If, on the contrary, a person has no desireto gamble, no law in the world will makeohim gamble. What is immnoral in'taking,a .ticket in a lottery? Will- the spiritua'

2519 -

2.520 tASSl~MF3i 4Y.

welfare of a person be ruined because helputs in a sixpenny coupon to "'in a cross-'jword puzzle? If that is inimical to thejppiritumal welfare of a person, then thegreat majority of the people in the mietro-politan ar*a are doomed to eternal suffer-ling.iMr. 91cenan: They are damined.

Mr. MNRSIIALL: While members arcprepared to come here and advocate theabolition of gambling, I venture to say notItoo many of them. will be game enoughpnext March or April to advocate its aboli-ition.

Mr. Panton: Why?IMr. MARSHALL: Because it is too

popular. The public haveo a right to say-what they like. ft is not for us to say whatthey will have or will not have.iMr. Panton: We do.Mr. MARSHALL: We do within limits.

:q Mr. Panton: I do not know what the.jlimits are..j Mr. MARSHALL: I suggest to the mew.-lber for Leederville that he is not gameponough to -advocate the abolition of gamb-Oing on the public platform next MNarch.

IMr. Punton: The Bill has already ad-1voeated. it for ine.

Mr. IfAILSHALL: That is all right, bu-tPI venture to suggest the member Ifimselfwill not a.T ,ocstcL it on the platform.iMr. Tlanton: Don't you bet too much

on] it.4Mr. XNAR'SNALjL: T will wager it. I

!havc hieard memibers in this Chamberspeaking in one direction and voting inanother.IHon. P'. Collier: Have you been among

the number?Mr. 3fARSHALL: No, but I do not know

.Whether the Leader of the Opposition hasnot been.*Hon. 1p. Collier:. You have not been far

away front me.I 'Ar. MARSHALL: I have been withthe lion, member oni many occasions, andhave voted against him on many occasions.

The Mlinister for Railways: Y on do fallfrom grace occasionally.

Mr. MA.R$HALL: I know the publichave a right to soy what is; wrong, justthe .sawi asc we, their representatives, have.Probahly tihey have as much right to saythey shall take a ticket in Tattersalls orin a charity art union or in some otherform of qweep or lottery, as we have 'to

say they shall not. What interests mcemore than anything else about this inat-ter is that if a person is wealthy lie canindulge in the most vicious form of gain-huing and the law shuts its eyes to it. Ifa person has the money to go on the race-course lie can g4o there and gamble withimpunity. He can gamible in the vicioussense.

The Minister for Railways: Not toomany bookmakers will allow persons togamble wvith impunity; they want themn togamble with notes.

Mr. MARSHALL: That is not the point.I am talking about the wealthy people whohave notes. They need not even go to theracecourse. They can bet in St. George'sTerrace or go to the Stock Exchange andgamble still more viciously there. Thelaw shunts its eyes to that. But as soonas there is a possibility of the workingclass getting an opportunity to gamble hutnot in a vicious wvay

Hon. P. Collier: What is vicious gain-bling9

Mr. MARSHALL: Gambling with diceor cards or on horse racing, or two-uip.

The Minister for Railways: I will giveyou a popular demonstration of what isvicious if you came to my house. I havea bull dogr there.

Mr. .SPEAK'ER.: Order!Mr. MARSHALL: I have stated what i

consider to lie vicious forms of gambling.'But because there is a possibility of someperson stricken with poverty obtaining re-lief fromt his duress, stress and trouble, byseine means within reach of his pocket thereis a hue and cry by a section of the peo-ple. As soon as there is an opportunity forpeople on the lowest rung of the social lad-der to get a fraction above it, those peoplesay "That is immoral; it is wrong spirituallyand mocrally," I go about the city as muchas anybody else and I ask members howoften have they seen a person of tenderyears taking tickets into an office. Theyhiave never seen it, hut that argument isused by the particular section of the earn-imunity who aie always talking about themoral and spiritual welfare of our youth.May I suggeast that what is killing the moraland spiritual welfare of our people is pov-erty! We do not hear those same peopletalking about relieving poverty. Anotherpoint: Although that particular fraternityoppose anything in the nature of gambling

Z520

[16 DECEMBER, 1932.] 52

(and they can have their way, if they like,and say that lotteries and sweeps are gamb-ling) they them~elves on occasions indulgein the most vicious form of gambling inorder to rai. e funds for their own insti-tution. I respectfully suggvest to them thatbefore they interfere with the moral andspiritual welfare of other people, they cleanup their own doorstep. I have seen bazaarsr-un by certain institutions where the sweatwheel has been used for the purpose of rais-in.g funds. That is one of the most viciousforms of gambling; yet we find the same in-stitutions opposing all forms of lotteries onthe ground that they are inimical to the moraland spiritual welfare of the people. It hasalway' s been the same: as soon as it is pos-sible for the working classes to get a littlerelaxation or make a little speculation, nomatter what form it may take, we find longletters in the Press with regard to it andpressure is brought to bear on the Govern-mient of the day, of whatever character theGovernment may be, to eradicate it, to stampit out. I have never yet seen a letter inthe newspapers against betting on the stockexchange or on racecourses, or against themore vicious Jonas of gambling indulged inby institutions. When an individual oflimited means desires to buy a 6d. coupon,there is an outcry; such gambling must bestopped. I should iilre to know what is in-jurious to the mon*: wji piritual welfare of-an individual who takes a ticket in a sweep.W~hen I1 buy a ticket in Tattersall's, I do not

wager Gs. 4d. to £5,000 that I will win. Whenit is convenient 1, with others, pool mymoney and the lucky one wins. I am notwagering any more than is a child who buysa ticket. If I put in a cross-word couponwuith my 6id., I do Dot bet 6d. to £1,000 that1. will wit- I simply do as a woman or achild would do; if the prize comes my way,good luck; if not, it does not matter. AmI immoral because I do that! Dues it ruinmy spiritual welfare?

The Minister for Railways: Why ask theSpeaker all those questions?9

Mfr. MLARSHALL: Because I am underan obligation to address the Speaker. 1 amnot asking the Minister. What is morallywrong with a juvenile buying a ticket inan ordinary lottery? It is idle for anvoiwto argue that because a juvenile buys a tic-ket inl a lottery, he is doomed for all timeto be a gambler. I have lived on the gold-lields practically' all my life, -and, as mii-hers know, the goldfields fraternity are a

g1amlbling- fraternity. I have watched themover tables playing hazards; I have watched[hema in the open spaces playing two-up; Ihave watched them playing M1urrumbidgeeand poker and 1 have not gambled 2s.

Mr. Sleetnan: Perhaps it was because youdid nrot have 2s,

Mr. MARSH ALL: 'No, it was because Ihad no desire to gamble. No law in theworld would nikc me gamible, and no law%iii the world would prevent me fromgamibling if I wished to do so. Even ifI did gamble, could it be said thatI was, morally or spiritually lost? 'Mywhole life is a gamible. When I walk downthe Street, I gamlble with lay litfc. Many amunfortunate individual has been knockedover by a tramn or motor car when crossingthe street. Life throughout is a gamble. Iappreciate the 'Minister's effort to controlgambling, but I think provision should havebeen made for a State lottery. I disagreewith the proposed board. T do not like theidea at all. I do not like the pro-

posal for the control to be given outsideParliament. There has been quite a lot oFdiscussion about the honesty of boards con-trolling such activities, and tba eforc I su--,vest it would have been better if the Min-ister had provided for State lotteries. Othercountries have led the way' and] have p~rofitedmaterially by State lotteries, and the M1in-ister might well have followed the exam ple.Really the Minister himself would havesupreme control under this measure, becausethe board could not control sweeps with-out his sanction. Under the Billanyone could go to the Minister and obtainpennission independently altog-ether of theboard. Consequently the Bill is topsy-turvy,aad for that reason I do not like it. I amsorry I shall have to oppose the Bill, becauseI appreciate the 'Minister's efforts to securecontrol. We should get a lottery controlledand supervised by the State, and- shouldabolish all the small lotteries and art unionsthat now make calls upon the public: TheM1inister rides in his motor car, parks it andsteps into his office. I have to walk downthe street, aind at every corner I am askedto buy a book or a lottery ticket, and I amicaught every time. A person who cannotafford to he caught is caught; the otherparty who can afford to he caught rides toand from his work in a motor ear and isnever caught. The 'Minister should haveintroduced a measure to provide that all

2321

[ASSEMBLY.]

institutions that find themselves under anobligation to conduct sweeps or lotteriesshould participate in the proceeds of aState-controlled lottery. Even under thismeasure, thle old trouble NviI1 continue.There will be only 15 lotteries, but s'weepsmay be Conducted in prescribed] areas. Con-sequently the existing condition of affairs,will continue. I cannot support the Bill,because it does not eliminate the objection-able feature of people being molested in thestreets to buly hooks or tickets. The measurewill simply control lotteries in a9 sense.

The Minister for Railways: It does thatspecifically.

Mlr. MARSHALL: It does not. The Billis designed to give control to a board whowill conducet 15 State-wide swee-ps: annually,but a hundred and one small sweeps may beConducted in certain areas during the sameyear. Thle measure does not attempt toeradicate those small sweeps.

The 'Minister for Railways: The point youwere making was that tickets could still besold in the streets.

Mr. MARSHALL: Probably the measurewould prevent the selling in the streets oftickets for the 15 State-wide sweeps, butthe tickets for the smaller sweeps wouldstill hle sold in the streets.

The Minister for Railways: N,~o.Mr. kIUARSRTALL: I say they would he.

The institution organiising such a sweepcould adopt whatever measures were deemednecessary to make the sweep successful.Who would there he to prevent the sale oftickets in the streets? The hoard wouldmerely give permission for the holding ofa sweep in a certain district, and therewvould then be local control. The MinisterCannot deny that. I do not know why we-should he always asked to take up arm.,against people in, lowly circumstances whowish to participate inl lotteries within thereach of their pockets. Why should they hlePrevented from indulging-? No such prohi-bition has been proposed until now. Itseems that as soon as any lottery is organ-ised to give People on the lower rungs op-portunlities for relief from the poverty inlwhich they live, steps are at once taken toprevent it. 'Many a home has been glad-denled by the prizes -wvon in the cross--wordcompetitions. Some People argue that toenter for those competitions is immoral, andYet anyvone can go to a racecourse or to the

stock exchange, if he tan afford it, andgamble as much as he likes, and nothing issaid about it. Because an individual findsan opportunity to speculate 6d. or 3d. inai competition, it is said to be immoral.The objection really arises from the presenceof queues of people waiting- their turn to gainadmittance to the buildings where the cou-pons have to he lodged. Yet no ohjctinis raised to other people who hold up thetraffic, although the exploitationi by themwould be greater. I consider the Bill cla.,slegislation, If it be passed, people -will,still be able to go to raccourses, to the stockexchange and to bridge drives, so long asthey are possessed of money, and gambleas much as they like. If a manl goes t0the wvhippet course at Oxford street andwagecrs onl a certain. animial, that is illegal.The explanation is that there are no -wealthypeople behind whippet racing, and conse-quently there is no influence behind it. Itis tile sport of poor, working men. If the 'ycan find 1s. to go to a. racecourse Ithey canbet as much as they like. I do not conaidurthere is ainy relationship between lotteriesand gambling. I consider that dice, cards,and horse-racing are vicious forms of gamb-ling, but that to take a ticket in a. lotteryor art union is not harmful. We ought to hlehonest about this matter. I would have likedto support the Bill, and if the Minister willp~rovide for a State lottery I shallhe only too pleased to support it,hut I cannot support control by a board.I cannot agree that people who take a ticketin at lottery are spiritually and morally~ruined. That is rot! That idea belongs tothle era of long skirts, of wooden ships andother antiques. We have progressed andwe must march with the times. Skirts aremuch shorter these days. 1. want someoneto point out to ine how a person becomes,spiritually and moralk-' ruined through thespending of 6id. onl a ticket in a lottery' . Toppose the Bill merely because of thle conl-trol proposed by the -Minister.

MR. SLEEMAN (Frem antlc) [9.46): I(10 not desire to cast a silent vote on theBill. Ever since I have been a member ofthle House, I have advoc-ated the holding ofState lotteries. At one time we passed aBill with that object in view, but it was re-jected in another place. I do not like theform in which the Minister has introducedthle Bill, not that I have anything against

115 DECEMBER, 1932.) 2523

the committee that wvill be in cantrial, butbecause I think we should have straight-out&ate lotteries. I have an open mind ointhie matter, and my attitude will dependlargely anl tire reply of the Minister whenhe closes the debate. Personally, I cannotsee any harmi in taking a ticket inl a sweepor a lottery, bus it should lie run by theState and the profits devoted to the Statefunds. One member said that hbeeaiis"Ollic j~cple conducted anl organisedattempt to hlp P men onl the lowerrungs of the ladder, a certain section ofthle community made at lot of noise. I donot ag-ree that the newspapers commencedtheir crossword puzzles for the purpose or'helping men onl the lower rungs. They werestarted far the purpose of increasing thlecirculation of the newspapers, and in orderto make them more popular, the newspaper-decided to contribute something towards thefunds of charitable institutions. It is verveasy to make a good fellow of oneself wvithithe other fellow's money.

Mr. Marshall: The public favour the lot-teries.

Mr. SLEEMAN: I am in favour of lot-teries, hut I do not wvant the newspapers toget away with the suggestion that the move-mneat was started by them to help the menonl the lower rungs. I ain not opposed toa nin havinrg a bet, p~rovided lie can affordto do so. Iii my opinion the gambling lawsof Wo ,terni Australia have been administeredless effectively than laws iii any other part orthe wvorld. Irrespective of what Governmentmay have been in power, our gambling lawshave been administered most rottenly. Ithas always been class administration. Aman can go to the racecourse and bet asmuch as he likes. If another man takes upla position on the other side of the river anddesires to have a shilling bet, the p~olice be-come active, and lie is put inside. Gamblingis either right or wrong. If it is right, aman should be allowed to gamble onl the race-course, of pedestrian, cycling or otherathletic meetings, or wherever he so dle-sires. Should a man desire to puta couple of shillings on himlself'at a pede~trian meeting, the armn orthe law is stretched out. During the courseof the debate, someone interjected aboutbetting at Ifullewa. I was at that town onlone occasion when a Sheflield handicap wasrun. A mail who was endeavouringl to makea book was immediately sp)oken to by apoliceman and told if the book was seen

again, lie would be arrested. Why shouldinen not be allowed to bet at Mullewa, justPu3 much as they arec permitted to bet atAscot, at Helena Vle, or at Goodwood? Ihope the -Minister will consider the admainis-tration of the trambling, laws with a view toamccrta ining whether they' cannot lie moreerjuitahlv carried out. I should have likedthe Bill to lie referred to a select committee,with a view to having the adinisitration ofthle glabling laws inqi ired into thoroughly.I hope that when lie replies, the -Ministerwill be able to tell as that he will agree tothe Bill ieing amtended, so that the lotteriesto be conducted wilt be directly controlledby the State, and that tine lotteries will bewvithin the reach ot everyone who desiresto have a flutter with his shilling or two. TheAusitralian loves a little gamble, and if theNate were to run a shilling lottery everyfortnight or even' month, there would notbe any necessity for the continuance ofnewspaper cross-word puzzles. I have beentold that some peop~le have gone withoutmeals in order that they mighlt try their luckwith a ticket in a cross-word puzzle. ifpeople arc content to do that, then I hopethe lottery in which they invest their moneywill be controlled by tile State.

HON. P. COLLIER (Boulder) [9.49]There has been, a wealth of controversy re-garding the Bill since it was first introduced.The nieasure has received fairly wide-spreadsupp~ort in the columns of the newspapers,not only editorially, but by contributors.Notwvithstanding all that has been said andwritten in support of the principle oflegalising lotteries, I remain unconvinced.I do not propose to deal with the moral orspiritual welfare of those who take a chancein a lottery, but to deal with it on othergrounds. I do not think there is any con-siderable section of responsible thought inthe community that will dispute the factthat gambling is inherently unsound. Itundermines the character of the people. Itraises false hopes; it creates an attitude ofmind that is altogether harmful to the in-dividual and, being harmful to the indi-vidual, it is necessarily harmnful to the State.I think that will not be disputed. If therebe no objection to gamblingI then we mightallow the nation to indulge to the utmostextent in the practice, and where would thenation end up? I do not intend to address

'2524 [ASSEMBLY.]

mnyself to this subject from any assumedhigh moral standard. I wrish to approach itwith somae regard for the Ipeople of the Stateand of future generation. Is there anyonewho will dispute the fact that openling- thedoor to gambling and extending every en-couragement to the 1)rinciple, will not haveits effect in weakening the moral fibre of therace? Will it he denied that such a colfls:'wviil tend inevitably to destroy those char-acteristics that go to make up a nation and]to Ibuild upl good men and women-? Thisidlea, of a "poor man's gamble" or of anlyother soit of gamible being permitted, sug-gests that if we carry that line of thoughtto a logic-al concisioii, we should open thedoor to all gamnbling and a mad rush andexcitemienit tn heroine richi without endeavouir,to make mneiy without effort. All seriousand important things of life will 1e for-gotten and set aside, and the though-lts of thepeople in suchi circuimstances will he con-centrated uipon becoming rch in a miazeof ga-nrbling. I kn]ow as well as anyoneelse the inherent weakness or desire of mienand women to gamble. Because that de-.sire is thieve and in fact, does exist, that is;not to say that it should be encouraged. Thefundamental fact that we have to keep inmind is that gambling in itself is wrong;, notmorally or spiritnally, not that it wvill af-fect our position in the hereafter, but inthe sense that it is dctrimental to the char-acter of the people, and harmful to thenas a race and as a nat-ion. There is no deny-ing that whatever, If wve were to 4_cconra!4i,people to inidulge ill w-hat is uindoubtedlYa weakness we should he doing a wrong notonly to the people of to-day but to those whoare going to coenn after. As an AustralianI have as much pride in our people as hasany other man, but I amn not blind to theweaknesses that esist in the Australian char-act-er and make-up. becauise no country wouldclaimi to be without weaknesses. and if thereis one. outstanding weakness more than an-other in the Australian character it is thisexcessive love of gambling. As far as myexperience goes, there is no other nation inthe world that gives up so much of its timeto sport which is associated with gambling.Some of the principal sports attract verylarge attendances because of the opportun-ities for gambling. Although I am awarethat gambling cannot be stamped out, andthat men will gamible, still it is xvronre forthe State as a State to give it the sancetion

of legality- It mnay he that to pass a Billof this kind will restrict or curb the amountof gambling that is going on at present, butgambling which is going on now can hestopped at any moment that the Governmentof the day cares to enforce the laws that arealready onl our statute-book. It does notrequire any additional law to curb gambling;the power is there to-day if the Governmentlike to exercise it. But once it is legalised,once it is sanctioned by Parliament, then thepower will not exist for any' future Govern-mnent that may so desire to suppress or con-trol the gambling proclivities of the people.We~T have had sufficient expuriele to enableus to judge that once a question receives theauthority of Parliamnent, there it will remain.It wiil not be repealed. I notice that in NewSouth Wales the lotteries which were legal-insed by the Government -which was in officetwo years ago, and the establishment ofwhicdh was strongly opposed by the Opposi-tion of the day, are still flourishing, in spiteof the facet that the Opposition of that timelias now been transferred to the Governmentbenches -with, I believe, the largest majoritythat any Government has enjoyedin the history of New SouthWales. Because gambling there is author-ised by law, the party that opposedit while they were in opposition, now thatthey are in power are permitting it to goon. Vested interests ha;ve cropped upl;all kinds of people become interested in.the question once it is the law of the land,and no matter how willing or anxious theGovernment may beC to carry out the atti-tude expressed while they were in oppo-sition, vested interests have become sostrong that they will not suppress it. Mr.Steven;, the Premier of New South Wales,we know is a very prominent churchman;hie takes his place in church as a layreader. He opposed the conduct of lot-teries to the utmost of his power when hewas in opposition, but now that lie is Pre.nujer,' because of the interests that havegrown up around gamibling, he is forcedto bow the knee to it. Even tin hares,about which there was so mnuch scandaland which was characterised as the -poormian's sport, is being permitted to con-tinue.

The Minister for Lands: I think he hasstopped night betting on tin bares.

Ron, P. GOLLTER: No. Gambling isstill going onl in connection with tin hare

2524

[15 DECEMBER, 1932.]

racing in Sydney. The Royal Comimiss3ionthat investigated that matter reported thatlicenses to conduct tin hare racing wereobtained by corruption, and yet 3Mr. Ste-venis is taking no action to suppress thatform of sport. There is no doubt that thequestion is all-important. I would preferto see gambling rampant as it is to-dayrather thau give it legal sanction, ratherthan I should see it reduced and controlledby the authority of Parliament. In the onecase it could be stopped at any timie if theGovernment so desired, while in the othercase it would continue. The Bill is beingsIuplported by many citizens for widely dif-ferent reasons. Some of our friends ofthe churches have expressed their Supportof the Bill because they say they wantto see the present orgy of gambling andlotteries curtailed. Consequently they aresupportingc the Bill because it purports tocontrol gamibling., There ist no need what-ever for thie Bill to control gamiblingy. Thepower exists to-day in the Criminal Codeand thle Police Offences Act to lpreventgamblinlg. It is misleading to sa ,xr An -thling, especially to that section of thlecommunity who are opposed to gambling.that will lend them to believe that gai-bling can be controlled only by thle passingof this Bill. It can be suppressed, I repeat,by tile laws that exist to-day. In that re-spect, therefore, the Bill is not necessary.I believe that those --God people, well-mneaning though they be, have been misledinto supporting the Bill believing that itwill have thle effect of controlling gambling,and that only by thle passing of the Billcan it be checked or controlled. One ofthe reasons given for supporting the Billis that it will bie tlhe mneans of raisingfunds for charitable institutions. IHere,agalin, chlarity has been made to cover. a.

ultitude of sins. Tile 'institutions thatare looking after thle blind, the sick, thelamec and the halt have benefited, 01" %%illbenefit, by the pasang of the Bill, andthose who are controlling the institutionshave been induced to give it their support.It is absolutely unfair to play upon01 thesympathies of those people for the sup-port of the Bill. Fortunately, there is inthe breast of nearly every human being asymlpathetic feeling for those who are indfistress, or for those institutions that eaterfor the people who need succour. To saythat the institutions will suffer if the Bill

does not go through is entirely wrong,Why should the Institute of the Blind orthe Children's Hospital, or any other char-itaflec establishment, be dependent tillimoney raised by lotteries? There is nomnore reason for saying that those institu-tionis should be supported in that way thanthere is to say that we should ran lotteriesfor the maintenance of the police force,the Education Department, the gaols andthe asylums. Those departments are allcharges upon the public revenue of theState. We levy taxes for the puirpose ofmaintaining those departments. Who willsav it is not less a charge upon thepublic to find money for the blind in-s-titute, for the sick and the distressed, thanit is for any of the departments I have in-dlicateri? If it is our responsibility as aState to find money there, so it is a respon-siIbility to find nionev for those institution;which have been broughlt into the arena ofthis discussion in order to get supporterzfor tile Bill, Is it contended that the blindwill be neglected and left without assistance,or that the hospitals and other deserving in-stitutions, which will get money from thelotteries, will be neglected if the Bill does3not become law? Of course not. It is theresponsibility of the State to find the money,just as it is to find money for the upkeepand the maintenance of our civil depart-ments. It has been said by the Ministerthat one of the g-rounrls for introducing thleBill is that the churches have neg"lectedl tofind the money' for the institutions I h1avo.mentioned. Since wheii has ilt become anlobligation of the churches to maintain in-stitutions which aire essentially an ohhigationof the State? Why should it be cast backat the members of the churches to say,"You are opposing- this, but you failed to-raise money to miainitain these institutions"?ft is no more an obligation of the churchesto find money, for the blind than it is to findmoney to pay the salairies or wages of thepolice force. It is -n i nfair chargpe to makeagaiiist the churches, and no chiarge at all.It is no ground for supporting this Bill tosax' that the chuarches have failed in theirobii ztions. They have not Failed inl tilelegitimate sphere of their functions andoperations,. for the imaintenne of chanit.able institutions isi not a legitimate flinctionof theirs. The Minister stays, "ITt h- irelessto comnplain against the conduct of lotteriesiwithin our own borders and for the benefitof our own people. especially when it will

[ASSEMBLY.]

be for the benefit of our sick and maimed.and our orphans.' That is playing upon01tile heart-strings of the people.

.Tile Minister for Railways: You aredrawing the long bow.

lion. P, COLLIER : These are tile wordsof the Minister. It would he to the eternaldisgrace of Parliament and the 1)eople if thesick, tile maimed and the o-rphans could onlyhe maintained 1)y lotteries,

The Minister for Railways: You were notso pronounced in your utterances a fewyears ago.

lion. P. COLLIER: I shall have some-think to say about that.

Thle Minister for Railways: I hope youwill.

li-on. P. COLLIER : I saw the Ministerreading "Hansard."

The Minister for Railways: It is wor6while.

Ron. 1'. COLLIER: I also intend to read"'Hansard." I do not think thle Ministerwill get muchi te better of me.

Thle Minister for Railways: Wait andsee.

Hon. P. COLLIER: We shall see. I amnot overlooking that. I knew the Minister-would resort to quotations from "Hansard"

Thle Minister for Railways: I would notdo so in ordinary circumstances hut I thinkyon arc drawing the long bow.

lion. P. COLLIER: I a'm not.Thle Minli-ter for Railways: I think you

are.Hon. P. COLLIER: I shall have some-

thing- to say fromI "Hansard."The Minister for Railways: So shall 1.Hon. P. COLLIER: Without anticipating-

what I propose to say, I would observe intile words of Mr. Hughes, the es-Prime Min-ister, "What does it matter what we saidYesterday 9" It woald he an unfortunatething if the minds of men were imperviousto new ideas and new thoughts- I have notchanged my individual opinions on the sub-ject. Thme Minister said, "If ever there wasa period in the history of the State whengambling had a free run, it was during thesix years when the Leader of the Oppositionwas in office."

The Minister for Railways: That was inanswer to an interjection.

Hon. P. COLLIER: It was the Minister'sstatement, and is definitely without founda-tion. I know what the Minister had in mind,namely, what was known as White City.Grambling was carried on there during say-

oral of thle years when we were in office.We inherited it from the Minister himself.White City had been established during thetime when the Minister was in oiice andwas in charge of the Police Department. Itwas established, not only as a going con-cern, where all forms of gambling -were iufull swing, but a lease of that Crown, landhad been granted to an individual for fiveyears. A big proportion of the receipts fromthe gambling that took place there wentinto the pockets of the lessee, the man whoheld the Lease anid secxured it from the Gov-erment of which tile Mtinister was a meiie-her. It wa~s not tasy to stop it, lbecause atthat time certain bodies were permitted touse the area. The Ugly Mlen's Assobiation,tlie Returned Soldiersi' organisations andother bodies were deriving something fortheir funds frm the proceedis of gamhlingat White City. It was not easy to s~uppressit all at once. Although this place was estab-lished during the MAinister's term of officeand the lease granted to the individnal con-cerned, and gambling stunts were permittedthere, when the lease ran out the lessee didnot get another lease. Before I left officeWhite City as a gambling place had beenentirely suppressed. The sale of tickets inthle streets, which had been going Onl duringthese years, was also entirely stopped. Whenwe left office no tickets for lotteries or gam-bling were being sold in tile streets. WhiteCity had been silenced. Now after two years,the sale of tickets in the street is flourish-ing again. One cannot walk down the mainstreets of the city without being interruptedin one's, progress by persons wanting to selltickets of all descriptions. That has all beenpermitted hy the Minister.

The Minister for -Railways: You do notsuggest that I granted the lease of WhiteCity?

Hon. P. COLLIER: No, but it wasgranted during tihe time the Minister's Gov-erment was in office.

The Minister for Railwayvs: Who estab-lished White City on the goldfields7 Did wvedo that toot

Hon. P. COLLIER: 'N0, it was the resultof thle had example set by the Governimentdown here. If White City was permissiblein Perth under a. five years' lease, therecould not he very much wrong in a minia-ture White City being established on thegoldfields.

[15 DECEMIBER, 1032.] Z~

The Minister for Railways: I have heardit said that two wvrongs (d0 not make a right.

Hon. P. COLLIER: It is not for the it>nister to complain about a smnall kind ofWhite City being estalblislhed on the gol(]-fields, whilst a mucht larg er White City wasflourishing during tile tioe he 'vas in el reeof the Police Department. He does not re-qui re this Bill to stop wvhat is How Iiill on.All that the BillI sets out to dlo call be donealready in the way 0r the upjpressioll ofgambli ng. Under the law., that exi-t, if theMinister cares to exercise themt, gamlblingcall be stopped. I do not know whether itis a matter for the police or the City Coun-cil to prevent the sale of tickets in the streetsand the blocking of footpaths, but some-where in) the law's of the State there is powerto stop it. What humibug it is to say thatall this going on, as somne of our good peoplebelieve, because there is no Ilaw to preventit! Their support; of the Bill is enlisted be-cause of that. Ample power is provided tosuppress it if the Government desire to (10

so. Whent I was in office a Bill As intro-duced to legalise a lottery. I am not givingaway any' secrets when I say that I person-ally did not believe in the principle, andnever have done so. I was, however, a mhem-her of the Cabinet which broughit it down.

The Minister for Railways: You wvere atthe head of that Cabinet.

Hon. P. COLLIER: The present Cabinetmay be a Cabinet of one man, but it was notso in our case. Each member of our Cabinethad an equal voice with the others, and Idid not claim to exercise any more poweras head of the Government than did a nyother member of Cabinet.

Hon. A. McCallum: There would havebeen a row if you had.

Hon. P. COLLIER: justifiably so. I (10not believe in a Mussolini rule. We have hadtoo mutch of it. I aim, however, iprepa red] totake my' share of the responsibilityv, what-ever it may be, with regard to thme introdme-tion of that Bill. But again I say T amopposed to the principle, and if I shouldap)peal- now in the mind of the -Ministerinconsistent in being on the opposite sideto that on which I appeared to he when theBill was introduced by' our Government, Iam in pretty good company in my i ncon-consistency. Because on that occasion thep~resent Premier, who is the bead of a Gov-ernment, too, and no doubt could veto thisBill if he so desired, strongly opposed that

Bill. I have it here it, -Ha nsrd, anid couldquote thle speech of the presenit Premier inOPPOaltion to the whole principle of legalis-ing- lotterie.. Yet the Government of whichh e is head bring down a Bill to legaliselotteries. I do not blame the Premierfor that, hut I say I aml in good company.H-owvever, I desire to quote some of the ie-

marks of the present Attorney General, whowas then iii opposition to the Bill introducedby a member of my Government. I quote theremarks of the Aittorney Generarl only, be-ca u~e they appear to ine more eloquent antimoure con~vincing thant any words I coulduitter. So I will quote the Attorney Generalas against this wvhole principle, and wvill restmy ease, as the lawyers say in court, uponthat lput up by the present Attorney Generail.Trhis was in October of 1924, when'my friendMr. Munsie introduced the Bill to legaliselotteries in support of the hospitals. I thinkI Ray say a word or two as to what thepresent Premier then said. It is not that Iwvant to take 11p tinme in quoting ''Ha,-sard,"' but I am sure from my knowledgeand experience of the 'Minister that be willquote "Hansard" against me.

The 'Minister for Railways: Noa, no!

Hon. P. COLLIER: I could quote thePremier, but I do not think the case liemaide ant against lotteries was quite so good]its the case made out by thme AttorneyvG'eneral.

The Minister for Railways: The casemade out by the Attorneyv General could nothave been as good as it ought to have been-judging by the division list, 34 to 6.

Honm. P. COLLIER: The Attorney Geni-eral, on that occasion, speaking of the Bill,said-

I aim elnphalticalzv opposed to it. I proposeto tell the House why I an' opposed to it.When a. eolony' of the British Emnpire wasformned, it carried with it so tuceh of the lawof thc Old Country as was applicable to localconditions. When, Western Australia wasfornied it brought the laws of England thatwere applicabtle to it. Part of that law was,a distinct forbiddance against gambling. Thatlaw has beci, passed down until we find inSection 212 of the Crimninal Code-

I will read this section of the Criminal Code,lbecause under it the Minister has all thepowers necessary to suppress lotteries andg~ambling. The section reads as follows--

Anyv person who opens, keeps, or uses anyplace for earr ' ing onl a, lottery of any kindwhatever is guilty of :a misdenieanotur, and is

628 [A SSEMB3LY.]

liable to imiprisonment with hard labour forthree years; or mnay be s9ummnarily, convictedbefore two justics, in which Case liec is liableto imlirisonnment with ha~rdl labour for sixmonths, or to a fine of £100.

The termn "lottery'" includes any schemeor device for the sale, gift, disposal or dlis-tribution of an"% property depending upon orto bie deterine d by lot or chance, whether bythe throwing or casting of dive,, or, the dralv'ing of tickets. en rl, lots, n umbers9, or figures.or bY mneans of a wheel or trained aninial orOtherwise howsoever.

That is the Code. It is very sweeping andaffords all the powers necessary to stop whatis going on at present if the Government

desire to put it ini motion. Then 31r. Davy'continued -

thehiryiiie racme, as far back as we knowthe istov ofthe world, has discouraged

gamrbling. (iir ponn I code at present providesa penial ty of six mionthis imnprisonmwent withhard labonr or a finec of £1J00 for anyone con-ducti ng, a lotter. Yet the G overameuit, whilst-leaving that seetioai in the Crimnlal Code, pro-pose to d~o something for which any o110 ofour citizens may be implrisonled for six mnthlsor fined fl01. SuCh at pice Of legislattion isnmonstrous, aud 1 ami opposed to it heart alndsoul. M'ost of the arguments adduced to-nighthave been in, the direction of suggesting thatthis is a mnatter of the end justifying themleans. I hanve never thought that the endcould juistify tile nilallis in any nmatter of thisicind. What is wrong in principle is wrongWhether it brings about indirectly a good ora bad result. Time argument is not worth ainonieit 'a eoiisideration.

And he goes on to say-

The mein her for Coolgardie has suggestedthat because one member on this side opposedthe Bill he is in favour of starving ourchildrenx ill the Children's Hospital.

The Minister for Railways: Who was themember for Coolgardiel

Hon, P. COLLIER: Mr. Lambert. Thepresent Attorney General said the memberfor Coolgardie had suggested that someoneopposing the Bill was necessarily in favourof starving our children in the Children'sHospital. 'That is the argument put for-ward to-day, that unless this Bill is carried,the children in the Children's Hospital willbe allowed to starve. Mr. Davy went onto say the Government had unlimited tax-ing powers.

The Minister for Railways: And what didMr. Clydesdale sayl

Hon. P. COLLIER: He said that Mr.Davy would be the first to squeal about in-

creased taxation. To that Mr. Davy re-plied-

Not at all. If there is money to be got outof the people-if there is not this Bill willbe valueless-let it be got out of them by theproper means.

The 'Minister for Railways: Now readwhat was said by the member who declaredhe was absent and took no part in the de-hate.

Hon. P. COLLIER: That hon. membercan defend himself. I am not here as coun-sel for him. However, 'Mr. Davy went onas follows-

Is it an;- reason why the present Govern-mient should bring in a Bill which proposesthat the- Government of the countr-y shall dosomnething for doing whieh the private citizennay be sent to gaol? That seemis to mce a

mholistr-ous proposition.

And again-

The argument used always was that the endjustified the mecans. in 'Western Australia theS§tate has assumed] somec of the functions oftile parent, and it is tending to assume mareand mnore of those functionis every dlay. TheState is thu educative body for children. Allchildren are bound to go to school, and thevast m~ajority of them go to schools providedby the State. In those schools they are taughtmiorals,' and, quite apart from religion, aretaught what line of conduct will nlust conduceto their happiness and Prosperity. One thingthey are taught is to avoid gambling.

Then Mr. Lambert asked what effectthe Golden Casket had had on the childrenof Queensland, and Mr. Davy replied-

I have no doubt it is breeding up a race ofhopeless gamiblers. there. How can tile Stateteach children that gambling is an evil andat the same time conduct lotteries?

I quote those remarks because, as I havesaid, they arec more logical and more convinc-ing then any words I could utter. Hlow canthe State teach children that gambling isan evil, and at the same time conduct lot-teries9 So right on throughout his speechthe present Attorney General said it wasmonstrous. It is a fact that we are teaehingthe children that gambling is an evil. Howcan we honestly tell them that, when theelected representatives of the people, theParliament of the country, say in effect itis not anl evil, that it is legal and may becarried on? So if there is an inconsistencyon my part I am in good company. ThePremier tio-day will support the Bill. TheAttorney General, whose remarks I havequoted, will support the Bill, and so al-

2528

[15 DECEMBhER, 1932.] 22

though it was a member of my Governmoentwho brought down that earlier lotteries Bill,I am opposed to this Bill because I believethe principle is entirely wrong.

The M1inister for Railways: I personallyknow that you have always expressed simi-lar views, long before that Bill was broughtdown by your Government,

Hlon. P. COLLIER: Yes; as an Austra-bian I have always felt that one of the greatweaknesses in our people is an excessivelove of and desire for gamubling, and thatit should not be encouraged. It is not suMR-cient to say that because lpeople debire itand will indulge in it it is right. I have nodoubt if we were to amend our CriminalCode to-morrow and say that fraud was nota crime, or that stealing was not an offence,large numbers of people would at once be-gin thieving and adopt fraudulent practices.It is not the province of Parliament.to eaterfor the weaknesses of the people, but tolegislate in such a way as to diminish theopportunities of the people to give way tothe weaknesses inherent in them.

The Minister for Railways: I did nothear a similar speech whomn on a division thevoting, was 34 to six, amid you were one ofthe 34,

Hfon. P. COLLIER: I think I would havedelivered a similar speech on that occa-sion, but I knewv members were against meand lierefore I refrained. Ta-day I be-lieve there is a possibility of memibe rs beingwith mec. Because people desire to do thisor to do that, should Parliament legislate toassist theni? Where would society driftto? What would become of the people ina few generations if the desire of the peopleto take the wrong road were approved andlegalised by Parliament? All the lawspassed by Parliament are passed with a-view to restraining people from doing thingswhich they desire to do, and compellingthey to do things whichi they do not desireto do. That is time effect of every Act ofParliament. It is the duty of members ofthe House not to provide opportunities forthe people to gamble, but to endeavouir torestrict gambling. I am not exaggerating-when I say that more lives are ruined bygambling than by drink. Men lose goodpositions in society through gambling(.Whenever one reads of men being convictedof stealing money that belongs to their em-ployers, in 99 causes out of a hundred their

downfall has been brought about by gamb-ling., How otherwise can their downfallbe explained? Often these men are in re-ceipt of a fair salary, £6, £E7, or £8 a week,but they become addicted to gambling andtake money for gambling- purposes. Thusthey wreck their own lives and the lives oftheir families. If Australia has reached thestage when she can only finance deservingand charitable institutions by means of lot-teries, then I fear for the future. It is theobligation of the Oovernment to carry onthe blind institute and hospitals, just asmuch as it is their obligation to carry onother public services. I oppose the Bill, be-cause if it is placed on the statute-hook, myexperience tells me it will remain there. itwill be almost impossible to remove it.Again I repeat that I would rather see un-restricted gambling- without legal sanction,because that could 1)0 stopped at anymoment, -rather than permit gambling to becarried on in a moderate and restrictedfashion with legal sanction. For these rea-sons I oppose the Bill and I hope it willnot become law,

[The Deputy Speaker took the Chair.)

MR. DOINEY (WilliaznsNarrogin~[10.48]: Like every other member of theHouse, I have beeni very much entertainedby this debate, but I feel a certain amountof doubt, in this me-staging- of old politicalcrimes, as to which of the two protagon-ists is the bigger villain, the Leader of theOpposition or the Minister for Police.

lion. P. Collier: Make it fifty-fifty.Mr. DONEY: I am certainly looking for-

ward to hearing the reply of the Minister. Iam in agreement with nearly all the senti-ments expressed by the Leader of the Op-position. There was one point, however,with -which I certainly do not agree, thatit'would be possible by strictly enforcingthe existing law to suppress guambling en-tirely. The hon. member surely knows thatcannot be done, and I am surprised that hemanaged to convince himself by such anargument. I do agree with the member forMurchison when he says that poverty leadsto gambling. I certainly think it does.

Hon. P. Collier: That is the unfortunatepart of it.

'Mr. DONTEY: I admit that. When peopleare stricken with poverty, it is but natural

2529

[ASSEMBLY.)

and inevitable that they should tun to any-thing, even gamlbling, in order to escapefrom their poverty. The member for Mur-elhison said he could see no moral aspect ofthis question whatever. I put it to the hon.miember--or I would if he were present-that the most regrettable period iii a youngman's life is when hie discovers for the firsttime that it is possible to make a shillingor two without working for it. That cer-tainly is a moral aspect of this question,and it should bc respected. Because ofthe many points the Bill does not clearlydeal with, I can not profess to he very en-thusiastic about it. However, as the inten-tion underlying the Bill is a good one, Ishall support the second reading, largely withthe object of giving the MNinister a chanceof explaining the obscure points to which rhave referred, and inl order that the Housemay have an opportunity of making suchamendments as will turn the Bill into agood and serviceable Act. The Bill doesplainly give uts at choice between a certainmeasure of control and the existing confu-sion. I amn all for control, if we can frameanl Act which will give the right kind ofcontrol. NYo doubt it will be argued that wehave a certain amount of control aow. Iadmit we have, but it is a very feeble controlindeedl; as a matter of practice, of late yearsit has added to the existing- confusion. ftris a control which flagrantly breaks the lawit is supposed to enforce, and impliedlycoaxes other people to break it. I wouldbe interested to flnfl out exactly what isthis power that so constantly and at willflouts the law. I would like to see it throwninto the open, so that it could be dealt with.There is such a power; I believe no memberdoubts that. Surely it is possible for Par-liament to frame an Act, and surely it isjust as possible to see that it is enforced.What is the purpose of the Bill? It isplainly set forth. Tt is to conduct lotteriesin order to raise therefri money to sup-port chiarities. The question naturally arises,is that a good principle? Just as plainlythe answer is, "'No, it is not a good prin-ciple at all." It may be argued that onecould give the lotteries no cleaner or betterwork to do than to support charities, butthat does not affect thle pr)inciple. If, in.order to restrict gambling, it becomes neces-s-ary tor inflict fines,-I do not care whatform the fines take-the fines in the lumipcould he handed to the charities-since theymuiist be put somewhere-but onily where

they are in augmentation of sumis raisedfrom other sources. fleliberately to run alottery for the expres~ purpose of makingmioney by a practice which the laxv con-damins is obviously quite a different thing.It miust assuredly follow that ats our popula-tion increases the need for charity must alsoiiievflably increase, and so it will he neces-sary later ou to encourage the extension oflotteries in order to secure therefrom theadditional money that will he necessary toniaiatain the charities. I say that is a com-plete negation of what the Maintister saidwhen moving the second reading of the Bill.The Nlinister rightly said then that gamb-ling was one of our n-ational weaknesses andlie very plainly intimated that he desired tolessen opportunities for people to indulgein it. Having made that admission, he canjustify his Bill now only by showing thatthe control he proposes will make gamblinguapopul[ar and gradually lessen it. I wouldLike the Minister to say just exactly howhe will manage at one and the same time tolessen gamibling and yet to incerease thlemnoney which will be necessary to main-tain charities. The Minister said thatif the Bill did not tend to reduceg&ambling, he would not be a party toits introduction. Knowing the M1inisteras I do, I readily accept his statement,but the point is that he will not be Minis-ter for Police for all tine. Whether headinits it or noet, hie mus9t know that thevirtual control will be in the hand5 of thefour comm nis sioners whom it is proposedto appoint, and of course whether lotteriesdecrease or increase will depend entirelyuipon thle interpretation placed uipon theAct by those four commissioners.

The Minister for Railways: You canmake the Bill what you like when we getinto Committee.

Mr. 'DOXNEY: Whatever the Ministermnay' think now I say the actual conductof the lotteries wilt he in the hands ofthose persons who wvill be appointed ascommissioners.

The M1inister for Railways: Only in eons-pliance with the terms of the Act.

Mr. DONjY: That is so. When all isknow about the Bill amid we discover justexactly how far we can pull it this way orthat, we shall find it will be interpretedso as to allow the commissioners to dopretty well what they wish 6 rio.

[15 DECEMBER, 1932.] 23

The Minister for Hailways: I do notthink that ii fair. The Bill ik specific arsto what they 41hall do.

Mr. DONEY: Acts that are -ipecific havebeen uilo f~ lagrantly broken. I do not de-sire to inmpugn the honesty off the fourni whlo will ul tita tely be appointed

conussoner;, but if they carry out the1inlister's ideals, thev isill only lbe whit-

thing away their own occupation. Theywill not do that. There is not a singlemnember of thle House who thinks theywvill. Certainly, there will he police in-quirkcs into the bona ides of applicantsto run lotteries, and of course the Minis-ter has the righbt to veto recommendationsmande by the commissioners; but in actualpractice who will determine tile issue? 'ritefour commissioners, this. body of four veryshrewd men, and I say they -will takesome ovcrriding I would hinledtoput four unpaid men alongside the fourpaid memibers. I think four such mncould easily be found, and if they wer'?found, they would at least have the effect.of better balancing thle board. Tite ex-tremnities of the one group might be re-garded as offsetting thle extremities of thleother group. We need control nob onlyfor the excusable impulses of the peoplehut also tot the board. There are rumours-whether well-founded or not, subsequenthappenings will show-that members ofParliament may sit upon the commission.That is one of the features that has drawnme to take part in this debate. Rightlyor wrungly, I understand that Clause 12is included in the Bill in order to exemptthose members, should they be appointedand when they are appointed, from thepenal sections of another Act, the Consti-tution Act Amendment Act.

Mr. Hegney: The intention of theclause is pretty clear.

Mr. DONEY: The clause does not ac-tually say so, but the hon. member hasevidently drawn the same conclusion asI have. I do not think that should be per-mnitted. Those limitations are very neces-sary, and I do not want to see them dis-turbed in so far as they affect members ofthis House. If my assumption is correct,it would be an entirely wrong procedure.This is an aspect that I want members tonote. Plainly it would give such reen, ifappointed, an immense eleetoras lever.Whether it happened or not, there would

always lie the tendency on the part ofthose four members to giv-e undue prefer-ence to applications for lotteries fromt theirown constituencies. That sort of thing, ifit happened, wrould be far too Americanfor me. -Not only this State but Ausstra-lia as a whole is altogether too prone toape the meanier points of the Yankee chiar-acter, and liking America as little as I do,1 very much regret that tendency. Forthat reason, and for several other reasons,I hope the rumour is ill-founded.

The -Minister for Railways interjected.

'Mr. DONEY: I hope the Minister willreply to that point. I could repeat it inanother form so that there would be noexcuse for the M1iniister overlooking thematter. When the Minister replies I shouldalso like information as to how much of theproceeds would go to charity. I should likethe Minister to be a little more explicit thanhe has been. We know what is going onlin other directions, and it should hle a matterof fairly simple arithmetic to say whatamount will go to charities. Another lpointI wish the Minister to deal with is themethod lie intends to adopt in order to findhis commissioners.

The Minister for Railways: The obviousview would be if a manl was a good citizen,and if lie becamie a meamber of Parliamenthie would be discounted.

Mr. DONEY: One other matter I shouldlike explained, particularly iii view of theexpressions from members opposite, is theeffect the measure would have upon news-pa per competitions.

The Minister for Railways: You see thlerepresentatives and you will know.

Mr. DONEY: Even that is niot sufficient.I hope the Minister will say what effect isintended.

Hon. S. W. Munsic: I think thle lion.member must be pretty dlull of comprehen-sion if he cannot tell what the Bill means.It is drafted fairly plainly.

Mr. DONEY: I may be a little more dullthan is the hon. member. Probably Ihave read itito it just what he has, but thatdoes not prevent my asking the Ministerto tell me what is in his mind, which maybe an entirely different thing. I donot know that I am against news-paper competitions. If they were strippedof thle noise and annoyances in thestreet, and if the prizes were moreor less commensurate with the mental out-

2531

2532 ASSEMBLY.]

put onl the parl of the competitors, theymight be a quite desirable form of mientalexercise. MJembers opposite, in speaking,particularly the member for Guildford-Midland and the member for Leederille--

Hon. S. WV. MIunsie: The memiber for-Guildford-Mfidland has not spoken on thieBill.

The Minister for Railways: Yes, hie has'spoken, but still you are right because hledid not speak on the Bill.

M-Nr. DONEY: He said that undoubtedlYlegislation was needed to control lotteries,and admitted that the measure would givequite a desirable form of control, hot lateron he opposed the Bill as not being in thepubllic interests. I mention this mnerely bie-cause the beginning and end of' his speechdid not seem entirely to coincide. I havethle Samle complaint to uirge againlst thle Ire-marks of the member for ILeederrille. I-I,too, at the commnencemenit of his SpecCh,said be desired very much to help shape the

Bl, bu li e concluded by saying that hedisagreed with the Bill and hoped it wouldnot pass the second reading. Clearly, liewas not inclined to give himlself iii olppor-tunity to help shape the Bill. Be that as itmay, I invite those two mnemlbers to Joinwith miemblers onl this side of thle lhousea-and I hope with others onl the opposite side-to carry out their first intention and en-deavour to shape the Bill to some good pur--pose. In conclnsion, I make no doubt thatthis has been a very difficult Bill to frame.The Minister cannot satisfy everybody andmust not hope to do so. There are so mianysections interested and every' section, it miaybe said with truth, is fairl 'y extreme andintolerant of the views of other sections.I think, therefore, that the Bill, no matterhow good it; may hie, or hlow good its inten-tions may be, has not thc slightest chianceof satisfying as many people as it deservesto. I hlope the House will Per mit tile Billto go into Connnitt ,e with time object ofimproving it.

MR. BROWN (Ping-elly) [11.101 : MYmiind goes back something like eight yearswhen we had a Bill of ai simjilar kind beforeus inl this l10rn"e.

HIen. S. AV. 1Munie: NYo, yout did not.31r. BROWN: W~ell,. it was a next-door

neiglhour to it.Hon. S. W. Munsie: I might have been

a next-door neigbour, but is was not simni-lar to this.

-Mr. BROWN\: If my memory serves meright about seven members voted against theBill.

The Minister for Railways: Six.MUr. BROWN: I Was one of them. Since

dien I have had much timie for reflection ,i041I have often wondered whether, by- votfi 2against that Bill, we did anythingf to preven-tgambling. Has thle number of sweeps inWestern Australia been reduiced ? I listenedcarefully to thle Leader of the Opposition,who mentioned that the Premier of anotherState, when Out of office, was a strong- op-p)onent of anything in the shape of gamib-ling, but immediately hie obtained offic, hefavoured it. 1 do not think~ the Leader ofthe Opposition was quite fair inl that state-mieat.

Hon. S. W. 3lmnsie: He did not savthat; you ought to be fair.

Mr. B3ROWN: Walit did lie say?7 rphe

mneasure was in operation before the LanngGovernment left ollice.

]-lon1. S. W. Mun11sie : (0f course it was.That is what the L-eader of thle Oppositionsaid.

-Mr. BROWNY_: We caninot shut Our eyesto the fact that siuce the Act has been inoperation in New South Wales, the Statehas cleared ov-er E1 .000,000 for charities.

Mr. Domicy: The amiount cleared therehas nothing to do with the principle.

MAilr BROWN: lIt appears only nees-sary to he in opposition to oppose anythingil.iroduced by the Government.

Miss HolnamII : Is that what you do?Mr. BROWN: Evidenitly, that is what

the hon. member is doinig.Mriss Hobnhail We hanve n better reasonm

than that.Mrt. BRMOWN: I fail to see it.Mtiss Holiman : Yout would.'Mr. I3ROWV-- When the pre. enr Leader

Of thle Q 1position was head of the Govern-wment, lie allowed one of his 'Ministers to in-troduce it Bill for s-traightout lotteries. Ido not k-now whether hie -was one of the -,ix,lint evidently hie is now strongly opposed toanything, in the shape of gam nbli ng,

Miss H-olian : Yon just said von had seenthe error oif yoor wa t-s after m'lection.

Air. BROWN,: Circumstances alter cases.I shiall explain that as I proceed. J amn not

anabler. [have ha olyv a half ticket inlTatrersalls Once in mn'y life, but I admftit thatI have had mnany riekets in raffles, and

2532

(15 DECEMBER, 1932.] 2

churchi railles at that, and the only' thing- Ihave wron "'as a fat turker. The questionremains, canl we do away with a certainamount of gambling,? It is human natureto gamllble. It is almost impossible for a bodyof men to comne together wvithout their hav-ing, a little flutter in the way of a gamble.Ev-en the aborigines will gamuble. On oneoccasion I gave a blaekfellow a coat of mineand a couple of days afterwards I saw it onanother hlackfellow. I asked him, "Wheredid you get that coat?" And bie replied,"The other fellow lost it at euchre last.vight."

Hon. P. Collier: That was not instinctive;they learnt it fromt the whites.

Mr. BROWN: I am not sure that theydid,.

Hon. P. Collier: They knew nothingabout euchre until the whites taught them.

M-Nr. BROWN: But they had forms ofgamnbling of their owin. I repeat the ques-tion, has gambling in Western Australi-ibeen reduced-? How mauv sweeps have beenpermittedi during- the last eight years?Dozens of sweeps hare been authorised forcharities or for organisations of variouskinds.; There is no escaping that fact. Iwill s:ay with regard to crossword. pus-zles-

Hon. P. Collier: You are a hit of a cross-word puzzle1 yourself.

Mrll. Angelo: Not too cross.MAr. BROWN: The craze has a hold on

the people throughout the State. In troy-back farming houses we find them havinga. flutter and sending eotipoits down to the"Sunday Times" or the "Daily News."They maintain there is no harm in takinga chance of gaining a substantial prize.With regard to the cost of administration ofthe competitions, I have been told on thebest of authority that the owners of thenewspapers take nothing for themselves.Their papers certainly enjoy a much largercirculation, hut, on the other hand, employ-meat has been found for a considerablenumber of persons. In the streets we findmen, black, white and brindle, selling Cou-ponls. Boys in knickerbockers. have themifor sale. I was surprised, when standingin Hay-street to-day, to see the number ofyoung women who went in to have a flutter.Those young women will he the mothers ofthe future race, and the idea occurred to me

asto whether we were not instilling the

gamibling instinct into the unborn genera-tion. It rather looks like it. I fail to seeany harm in it, but T do not think this sortof thing is a good advertisement for West-emn Australia when overseas visitors arrivein our midst.

Hon. P. Collier: You see no harm in it?Mr. BROWN: 'Not morally.Hon. P. Collier: Then why do you object

to the spectacle con fronting overseas visi-tcwrs?

Mr. BROWN: Perhaps that is one reas~onwhy the Bill has been introduced.

Hon. P. Coier: Well tell us why, as yousee no wrong in it, you object to overseasvisitors witnessing the spectacle.

Mr. BROWN: You are working a techini-cal point onl me! I want to know whetherthe Government are getting any revenue outof the crossword puzzles and how manystamips are being bought.

Hon. P. Collier: If we multiply the numi-ber sold, tenfold, we will get mlore revenue.

Mr. BROWN:- I remember when the Gov-erment. introduced a Bill to impose a hos-pital tax of 11/4d. in the pound. In oppo-ing the imposition of the tax, the Leader orthe Opposition referred to the gamblingspirit and said that hie dJid not favour ganib-hug- being resorted to for the purpose ofassisting the hospitals. Where was the 1 1/A.to conme fromn?

Hon. P. Collier: You are talking abonta tax on gambling. Are you dreaming?1

TMr. BROWN: No, but my memory goesback to that time.

Hon. P. Collier: Your memory is treach-erous.

Mr. BROWNX: I am speaking the trntWrRon. P. Collier: You said I opposed the

hospital tax becanse there was gambling.in it.

'Mr. BROWN: I did not say anything ofthe sort. I said that when the Governmentintroduced] the hospital tax you opposed it.Why?

Hon. P. Collier: T gave my reason.Mr. BROWN: How could we have got

revenue for the upkeep of our hospitalsotherwise? You (lid not tell us that.

Hon. P. Collier: Of course I did.'Mr. BROWN:'- It dlid not suit you to tell

us.Hon. P. Collier: You are not capahle of

understanding.Mr. BROWN: I am sorry I am so dense.

2533

25314 ( ASSEMBLY])

Miss Holman: Tf it had lbeen a tax toas~sist the hospitals, wve wvould have sup-ported it.

Mr. BROWN: Eight years ago I wasstrongly opposed to grambliing, and I amstill opposed to it. I do not like our hos-pitals having- to receive support as a re-sult of gambling efforts. If we haveto rely upon support from that source,God help us. On the other hand,the spirit of gambling is abroad. I admitthe truth of what the Leader ofthe Opposition said when he contendedthat we already possessed legislative powersenabling the Government to prevent gamb-ling, hut no Government has ever yet hadcourage enough to enforce the law. I con-sider the best wvay' is to allow the Bill to gointo Committee, and then we can determinehlow nmnny lotteries and crossword puzzlceswe shall allow each Year. If the MAinisterwill not accept amendments that membersdesire, we can even go to the extent of de-feating the Bill at that stage. At the pre-seat time, money is leaving Western Aus-tralia and going to Tasmania, 'New SouthWales; and Queensland. and the questiounarises as to whether we canl prevent it. Themember for Murchison (Mr. Marshall) wascquite correct when he said that no one canlprevent a person from gambling. Ta thecircumstances. we must face the positionand deal with it in a fitting manner.

Ron. P. Collier: It is the chance to do illdeeds that makes ill deeds done.

Mr. BROWN: I am against gambling.Hon. P. Collier: And you are supporting-

the Bill!Mr. BROWN: After observing conditions,

that have obtained (luring the past eight.years, I sometimes feel inclined to believethat it was a pity we did not pass the Billintroduced by thre member for Hannans(Bonl. S. WV. Munsie). We are passingthrough the greatest financial crisis in theexperience of the State and people havevery little money. If a woman has 5s. orOs. and nothing else in the world, she istempted to spend 31d. on a coupon in viewof the possibility of winning £100 or more.Are they impoverishing themselves by doingso? Does it mean that they arc going with-out mealsV

Hon. P. Collier: If a woman buys a cou-ponl when she has only 5s., she must impov-erish herself.

Mr. BROWN: I am told that that is beingTdone. It is marvellous to think that nearly£5,000 is found weekly for the crosswordpuzzles that are being conducted. If it istrue that some people wvould rather take aticket. than have a meal, the crosswordlpuzzles should lie stopped. While ticketsare sold in the street, the temptation isthere to buy. Oin the other hand, if the Billbe agreed to and lotteries are conducted, itis probable that purchasers of tickets willhave to go inside a building and in those cir-eumstances, in the absence of the temptationthat is apparent in the streets to-day, thatelement 'nay be removed.

HON. S. W. MUNSIE (Hannans)[11.25]: 1 congratulate the Leader of theOpposition on the able speech he deliveredonl gambling generally. So far as I amaware, he is no gambler and does not knowthe first rudiments of it-probably all to hisbenefit. Despite all his eloqiuence, I look atthe problem from another aspect. Gamblingis in our midst, irrespective of what we maythink of it. While I admnit what my Leaderasserted regarding legislation already in exis-tence, I amn firmily of the opinion that if theGovernment so desired, they could stop gamba-ling even onr racecourses, apart from thetotalisator. No Government to date hastaken that drastic step. One of the greatestobjections f have to the Bill is thatthe responsibility is removed from theGovernment and placed with an out-side board. To my mind, that isnot fair. The -Minister for Mines,' byway of interjection, had somethng to sayabout the White City. I remember the argu-ments. that took place in Cabinet as to whe-thier that institution should or should not bestopped. At that time, a system of gamblingbecame popular, almost to the extent of thecrosswvordl puzzles to-day. I refer to the tip-ping. competitions, which assumed immenseproportions and for which applications camefrom all parts of the State. We consideredit advisable that the competitions shouldcease and we had the courage to enforcethe law. We dlid that because we believedthat what was happening was not right. Itis extraordinary what a large amount ofmoney is subscribed week by week for thecrossword puzzles.

Mr. Wells: More than would be necessaryto keep our hospitals going.

[15 DEcEMBER, 1932.1]53

Hon. S. W. MIUNSIE: Considerably mole.1 am of opiinion that a good deal of moneycomes fromj iieople who can ill afford theexpenditure. Regarding comments made intile Prcs, about crossword puzzles, I havenot noted any such claim mnade by the "DailyNews," but thle "Sunday Time.," anid the"Mirror" claim virtue because the proprie-tors of the newspapers aire getting nothing_out of the competitions. They assert that thewhole of the proceeds, less, the expense in-v'olved in cashing thle stamps, goes; to thosewho subscribe. lBoth those newspapers havefound employment for a fair number ofextra hands because of the crossword puz-zr-S but I am not so simple as to believethat they are doing all this purely from acharitable point of view. Nor that they arerunning thle puzzles anid are not. themselvesderiving any benefit from them. For a periodof five or six years there was anl agitationin Australia for a bramnch of the Auto-bureau of Circulation, it took five years toget that bureau established, and] it lnS 1)enin existence for sonic 18 months. Its pur-pose is to distribute standard advertisementssuch as those for "'pink pills" and "MotherSiegel's Syrup," and the condition underwhich they pay newspapers certain rates isthe production of a certificate by theproprietors showing thle genuine cirull-latioll. For every 5,000 increase in thecirculation the newspapers receive anadditional price per inch for the inser-tion of these standard advertisements.One of the journals in this State has, outof thle standard advertisements, more thantwice over paid the expenses involved inrun iii ng the cross,-word competitions. Thatisi the reason why they give a certain per-centage of other people's money, to charityand charge nothing for their own services inconducting the puzzles. It is paying thenewspapets handsomely, anid we can rest as-sured that if it were not, paying them theywould not be carrying onl thle competitions.The Leader of the Opposition alamost eon-vinced me to vote against the second read-ing. but I am one of those who believe thatno matter what we may do in Australia wrewilt never stop gambling. Believing that, Iconsider it is preferable to control gamblingthan to allow it to continue uncontrolled.Therefore I intend to support the seondreading of the Bill. I am not supportin~zthe Bill because it will give the Governmentpower to stop gambling. That powver exists

to-day, but I know it is not possible to pre-vent tile averagre Australian from gamnbling.The Bill will control gambling, and thereforewvill do some2 good. The Government, how-ever', must be p~reparedl to take the respon-sibility that, by the Bill, they are trying topuit 021 the board.

MR. GRIFFITHS (Avon) [11134] 1intend to oppose the second reading of theBill. 1 consider that the best way to con-trol gAmbling is to have a State lottery.Many thousands of pounds are going toTasamania, N-ew South Wales and Queens-land at tile present time. Even the Ka-toomiba Hospital conducts its own consul-tation. A State lottery here would bie themnis of preventing a good deal of moneyfrom going out of the State. I like to haveat gomble at the trots or the raves, and Iam eonvimiced it is not possible to make thepeople religious or non-gamblers by legis-lation. We know what happened in Ame-rica by trying to make people sober by law.The White City to which reference has beenmnade to-night had its origin in a SilverChain entertainment that was conducted 021the Esplanade.

lIon, S. W. Munsie: Yes, that was prac-tically the forerunner of White City.

Mr. GRIFFITHS: All this talk of volun-tary giving to assist such a worthy obj ectis nonsense. A certain lady purchased alarge number of dolls and securing a quan-tity of cheap silk dressed them up to makethem appear attractive. They made a finedisplay, but no one wanted to buy then. To-wards the end of the Silver Chain enter-tainmnt, the dolls remained unsold, and theidea was conceived of gambling for them.A gairbling wheel was set up and for acharge of 3d. an opportunity was given to%'ii a (loll. It is almost incredible, but itis a fact, that all the dlolls wvere disposed of,mid no less a sumn than £74 was raised bythat mnethod of gambling. There we havean instance of where voluntary giving failsand gambling succeeds. All the same, gamb-ling- should be controlled. The whole lifeof the people is a gamible. The industry Irepresent is the biggest gamible of the lot.

MR. KENNEALLY (East Perth)[11.39]:, One should make his attitudeknown, before the measure gets through thesecond reading stage. In my opinion theBill reaches out to do too much, and so tospeak it over-reachies itself. We are passing

2535

2536 [ASSEMBLY.]

through abnormal times, and it is uselessto say that there is anl inexhaustible sourceof wealth that can be taxed. To talk ofbeing able to levy taxation sufficient to meetthe requirements of the poor and needy isabsurd. W~e are living in practical timesand we must conform to the position inwhich we finad ourselves. On r difIficulty Apresent is that money that is being eantedis leaving the State and enrich ing pl~elin other parts of the Commonwealth andof the world. The argument against a Statelottery in Western Australia iias been anlargument against gambling generally. Ifthe opportunity to gamble within theState p~er mediums of a lottery isdenied to the people, that opportunitywill be taken advantage of beyondthe borders of the State.1 Ipropose tovote for the second reading, and when theBill is in Committee I shall endeavour toprovide that the lottery shall be manag-edby the Government itself. I will refuse toband over the control of the lottery to aboard. If we arc to attend to the needs ofthe people whomn we propose to benefit, we,should do so by conducting the lottery as astraight-out Government department, hold-ing, Government officers responsible andclothing them with all the authority thantshould be theirs. I have been reading thereturn showing the operations of the NewSouth Wales State lottery for 16 months.The p)rofits of tile Government onl that en ter-prise exceeded £1,000,000 for the period.r]hle defeat or the Bill wvill not stop gambi-ling. The nioney speiit in galnlbliug-, however,wvill not remlain within the State. Are wegoing to ignore the needs of those this Billseeks to assist and allow the money to gobeyond WVestern Australia for the benefit. ofothlers? I am not prepared to do that. If aState lottery wer~e provided for, and theprofits applied to the p)oor- and needy, Iwould certainly support it. If the Bill is toremain in its present form, wvhen in Com-mittee I shall be one of its opponents. Ifbetter imes conmc and we can do withoutState lotteries for the relief of our chari-table institutions wre can go back to theold order of things. I do not want to seethe transference of monneyv from this Stateto another State. We cannot ignore theresponsibilities that are cast upon us to at-tend to our own people, and we should notallow mone 'y to go beyond our own bordersfor this purpose.

MR. WELLS (Canning) [11.48]: I havelistened to the speeches of hon. membersand have given a good deal of thought tothis question. I approach it with all openmind. No doubt it is a matter which hasfar-reaching effects. [ amn opposed torgambling as a fundamenltalI principle. Itis not the right method 'to ndopt for theraising of money for charitable inlstitutions;neither is it right that Parliament shouldlegalise gambling and sianifv its approvalonl the statute-book. I realise the dire neces-sity of the Government in being obliged toprov'ide money' s for the upkeep of our in-stitutions. A great deal of money is paidout every week in crossword puzzles andsweep tickets, sufficient to equip an linin -tamn our hospitals and charitable institutionsin every comfort. Where is that moneycoming from. Owing to the dire necessityof individuals, I think most of this moneyis coming from the poor and needy. In theirdistress they are hiving out their few penceand( shillings in thle purchase of tickets,hoping thereby to imuprove their financialposition. 1 know that taxationl is objection-able, but these people are voluntarily taxingthemselves Iry buying these tickets everyweek. If thie Bill reaches the Committeestage, the Minister ill charge of it cannotexpect any great support from mc unlessit is seriously altered. Gambling is not theright way ill which to raise money for thesepurposes, and we should not pass legislationto give effect to it. I am not in favourof the Bill; particularly am I opposed tothe system of control set out. in it. It willhave to be drastically altered in Committeeif it is to meet with my approval.

MR. WITHERS (Bunbury) [11.52]: 1support the second readinel. Gajubli ng isiii our lliidst. We can not iiiike people goodby kct of ParlianmentI, aid 110 doubt gaimb-hing will contine. We knowv what. is takingplace in the citY and we k-now that gamblingis not properly c 'ontrolled. Ever since theBill has been onl the Notice Paper, consid-erable advantag-e has been taken of the fact,and certain liberties have been taken indifferent forms of gambling. It is with mixedfeelings that I discuss the Bill. I realisewe ca nnot stop gamibling. bilt we must dosomething to control it. I do not like theidea of the Government legalising this formof gamibling. If this, is the only way wecan exercise any control over gainbling,, letis have State lotteries, and keel) the money

[15 D~cEMBER, 1932.] 2537

in the State. 1 wits in Sydney la't yearwhen the first New South WVales s weep wasdrawn. That was onl a Thursday. On theFriday and Saturday the second sweep wvas01)enecl. There "-as a (queue in the twvostreets adjoining the State Savings Bank,and the footpath was crowded from earlymOrning i ntil 4 o'clock in the afternoon,when the doo crs of the building were closed,so that the people who had got in could getout by six o'eloek. I watched the stream ofpeopie going in and out. One can see thenumbers of people in Perth eve-sing theBeautfort-street bridge one week, anad miov-ing allong Murray-street the next week.lodging their cross-word puzzles. It' the op-portuniity for gambling is placed before thepublic, they wvill take advantage of it.Those who are spending money inl cross-wvord puzzles are denying then,elvcs thatwhich they stand in need of. The chance ofwinning anything is a slight one consideringthe number of contributors. Very fewprizes are given. Not many people havebecome rich through the drawing of bigprizes. Most of those who contribute callill-afford to do so. I suppose, however, themoney circulates in the State, and goes intothe stores, kind some of it is returned to theTaxation Department. The Bill does not ap)-peal to me. I amn merely voting, for it sothat we can in Committee help the Ministerin his desire to improve it. Reference hasbeen made to the number of ticket sellersin the street. That has been anl eyesore formany years, and I wits leased to seeit cut out a few years ago No doubtthe number of sellers of cross-wordpuzzles is due to the bad timesthrough which we are p~assing.These men are usually decently dressed,and are of all ages. Noa doubt if they werenot selling tickets, they would[ be onl thedole. There may be some justification fortheir doing this work. It is, however, nota question of whether they should be onthe dole, and whether it would be betterthey should be kept by the State, but aquestion of their encouraging people whoare not iii a position to contribute tosweeps to buy their tickets. If we aregroing to have lotteries, let themi be con-ducted by the State and controlled by theState.

MR. COVEBLEY (Kiniberlp 'y) [11.55]11 wish to jLustify my vote in oppositionto the Bill. When the member for Hanl-

nans (leon. S. W. Munsie) brought downa Bill for the control of State lotteries, Ivoted for it. This, however, is a differentmeasure. If we are to have lotteries, theyshould be controlled by the State. ThisBill give., the Government the righlt tododge their obligations. It is their dutyto stop gambling. They can do so if theypilt the Criminal Code into operation.Fromt that point of view, there is no ne-cessity for the Bill. I would sulpport ameasure that provided for the establish-mnent of State lotteries.

THE MfINISTER FOR RAILWAYS(H-on. J1. Scaddan-M1aviands-in reply)[11.56): I expected this Bill would meetwvith a mixed reception, and have not beendisappointed. I did not bring it down be-lieving it was the last word that could hesaid on the question of controlling gamb-ling by mneanis of lotteries. It is unfortu-nate that in discussing the Bill, membersintroduced something entirely foreign to,its purpose. While this is a form of gamb-ling, it does not embrace all forms of'g amlbling. It was never intended that itshould, buat was intended only to deal withone phase of gambling. If members feelthat Parliament should take a hand incontrolling or restricting or abolishinggambling in) all its forms, some other ineas-tire wvill require to be introduced for thepurpose. This Bill could not possibly dealwith all phases of gambling, but it dealswith one phase of it, and that a very im-portant phase. To the credit of the Leaderof the Opposition I may say 1 was notsurprised at the attitude he adopted, be-cause I happened to know that when hesat with me in a previous Government heonl more than one occasion expressedviews, strongly against permitting what hetermied almost free and unrestricted gamb-ling. But I am surprised that, knowing theconditions that prevail, he should have sug-gested to-night that it would be an easymatter for this Government to do whathis o'vn Government failed to do. I haveit in "'Hansard'' that the Leader of theOpposition, when Premier, did not attemptat any stage of thle passage of the Billintroduced by the member for Hannans,the then Minister for Health, to supportit in any wray, except in repl 'y to the thenLeader of the Opposition, the present Pre-

2.335 ASSEMTBLY.]

iler, when the present Leader of the Op-position said as follows:-

Let 'us be honest with ourselves! If theLeader of the Opposition is so opposed to theBill, let himt bring down a Bill to repeal theAct by which we established gamblingmanchines on racecourses. Let us enforce ourexisting legislation and clean our streets ofthe large army at gamnblers and bettors whofrequent those streets! Let us go throughoutthe whole ramnifications of gambling in I~Vest-emn Aistralia, including sweeps, lotteries andso onl! R1on. members kniow perfectly wellthat that has never been attempted, nor wouldanlyone attemipt it nlow. Public opinion hasIbeen, and is, too strong for that. The l)eopleJike a little flutter.

Hon. P. Collier: I have not said any-thing, contrary to that to-night.

Thle MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ohyes. The hon. member declared that he-was opposing the measure introduced forthe puirpose of attempting to control thisform of gambling and restrict it, and besuggested that the proper thing for the(lovernment to do was to enforce the ex-lsting laws.

Hon. P. Collier: I did not: I said if theG-overnment wanted to suppress it theyhad the power.

The MtIiSTER FORl RAILWAYS:. Butthe hen. inember was very, definite aboutit. I listened carefully to him, and Ijuidged from his remarks that he was op-Posing the Bill onl the grounds that if thisform of gambling were once legalised itwould grow and there would be dirnelultyin repealing it or restricting it. There-fore he said the proper course to adoptwas to stop this formn of gambling.

Hon. P. Collier: No, the hion. membermisunderstood nie. I said that if the Gov-erment desired to stop it they had therower to do so.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Yes.but the lion. member followed that up andsaid this mnatter had to he approachedfrow the standpoint of thle effect it wouldhave upon Western Australia, and that theproper tiing to do, instead of legalisinggambling even in this forn, was not totake notice of any public clamour for it,bitt to stand even against the publicelamour and introduce a restriction forthe purpose of putting down this evil ino)ur midst.

1fr. Marshall: Yon are not gamne t6 doit.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:Please let me conduct this with theLeader of the Opposition. It wouldbe better if the hion. member -epressed himnself for the moment. Iam replying to the Leader of the Opposi-tion, wh~ose remlarks, were more importantthan those of the member for 'Murchisonand therefore deserve first consideration.From tiat statemnent I take it that theLeader of the Opposition suggested that,rather than introduce this measure, weshould mnove in the other direction and dosomnething that he himself excused his ownGovernment for not having done. He saidpublic opinion had been and was toostrong for them, that the people liked alittle flutter.

11on. 1P. Collier: The hon. member mis-understood what I said to-night.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Thehon. mnember in 1024 went on to say thatthe vo-e on the motion for the second read-in 0- had fairly wvell reflected ontside publicOpinion. Pie added that the Bill wouldhave the effect of wiping oat altogethermany of the objectionable forms of gamb-

ang, isuch as sweeps, lotteries, and so on.If ever there was a time when the Grov-ernment of the day should have beenseized of the necessity for taking the ac-tion the hon. member now suggests, thattfime was when they had a vote of 34 to 6,and the vote was regarded as reflectingpublic opinion.

Hon. S. W. M~nsie: If that Bill hadgone through there would have been nomoore outside lotteries.

The -MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Itis unfortunate that that Bill or somethinglike it has not been on the statute-book foryears, past, for it would have been all tothe good had we been in a position to leadpublic opinion to anl extent, without goingthe whole way that public opinion mightdesire. As the Leader of the Oppositionric~ihv said, no measure was ever intro-mIncIed into this House that did not restrictthe licen-se and very frequently the desiresof the conunnity. Bitt we may be able tointroduce such legislation as will giveeffect to the desire of the community torestrict gambling and direct it into certainChannels, so that instead of being such asevil as is sugZgested, it might be a ver i

Tqeat benftL h Leader of the Op.position has-4 suggested, that if the otl

2,338

115 DECEMBER, 1932. 253

argument in favour of the measure isthat it is going to help the sic-k and poorand maimed it can he of little or no value.Opponents of the measure have suggestedthat we should impose additional. taxationto mecet the financial obligations of thoseinstitutions. Arc not the people alreadygroaning under the lburden of heavy taxa-tion.

Hlon. P. Collier: Yet we are consider-ably the lightest taxed State in Australia,

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ifthat is so, Clod help the rest of Australia.The people of this State are groaning un-der heavy taxation, and the people who to-day are finding this money to the extentof over £30,000-since the hoard has beenconducting these sweeps directly prvdfor these charitable instituitions-havevoluintaril y taxed themselves to that ex-tent. Persons who do not, therefore, wishto be further burdened with taxation havevoluntarily taxed themselves because be-fore a commencement is made with thedistribution of the tickets in any sweepit is definitely stated what proportion willhe retained for expenses and prizes, andthe balance is available for charitable or-ganisations.

Hon. P. Collier: That is true, hut doesthe Minister believe that any person whotakes a ticket does so with a desire to con-tribute towards a elmaritable institution-?

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: I.did not say so, but they know the condi-tions and no one has expressed any ob-jection to the course being adopted.

Hon. P. Collier: Those who, take ticketshave no thought of the charitable side atall.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Idisagree with the Leader of the Oppositionentirely. I believe a large section of thecommunity are prepared to take part anddo participate in the conduct of lotteriesbecause of a distinct understanding thata p~ercenltage of the proceeds will be setaside for charitable institutions.

Hon. P. Collier: The first prize oaly isin their minds.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:- Ido not suggest that any person who takesa ticket in a sweep forgets the possibilityof winning a big prize.

Hon. P. Collier: It is the first thing intheir minds.

Mr. Withers: 1 have been disillusionedliany times. '

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: And-o have thousands of others.

Hon. P. Collier: That is the evil of it.The "MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: But

that does not affect my statement thatmany participate because they know por-tion of the proceeds will be set aside forcharitable institutions.

Hon. P. Collier: It never enters theirminds.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Itdoesi. A. person who participates in a sweephas before him the knowledge of what hap-pened in the preceding sweep and he knowsWhat are the arrangements for the latersweep. If he has any objection to raise, hecan do so. The purpose of the Bill, whichis to restrict the number of sweeps, is neces-sary. becnuse of the fact that they are be-coming so popular. There is the pos sibilityof preventing a large sum of money goingout of the State annually to Tasnmania, New'South W"ales and Queensland. In Tasmaniathe money, after providing for prizes andexpenses, goes to the benefit of the taxpayergenerally, but in New Soutli Wales andQueensland the proceeds are devoted to pur-poses similar to those we propose in West-ern Australia. I believe so much moneywould be easily av~aile from) sweeps, ifthey were allowed to continue, that if wyedidf not place some restriction upon them,they would become a scandal. I believethoroughly that We must place s;ome restric-tion upon this form of gambling so as tokeep it within bounds. I hope we can shapea measure that will enable us to do that. Ido not wish to traverse all the argumientsthat have been submitted by bon. membe-rsbut I want to point out to the member forWillianis-Narroain ("Mr. floney). that I can-not possibly tell him the exact amnount thatu-ill be provided for charities. We proposethat a certain percentage will be perniittpd.to be wvithdrawn fromn the fund for expenses,which are neceisary ait the present timealmost entirely because of the number oCrsweeps that are being conducted. The ex-penses now include 10 per cent, to vendorsof tickets, and advertising as well. Whileit is necessary to do so, additional expenseswill be tunavoidable, but I believe thatshortly we shall he able to reduce the cost oradministration from 10 per cent. to'less than10 per cent. In that event, the amoubi

2539

2540 [ASSEMBLY.]

available for prize money will be increasedand the balance, after deducting the 10 percent. for administration, w'ill be distributedamongst the institutions that will be assisted,in accordance with the determination of thecommittee with the approval of the 'Minister.

Hon. P. Collier: About 30 per cent. willgo to the charities.

The "MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: No,mnuch more.

Hon. P. Collier: The balance sheets show10 per cent.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: But1I have already explained to the hion. memberthat under existing conditions 10 per cent.'has to go to the vendors of the tickets. Letile tell the hon. member that sweeps of thisdescription have been conducted in Sweden

.sne1889.The Premier: The fire has never gone out.The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: I

have a paper here dated December, 1931, inwhich a statement appears that variousgrVoulps have received six million kronerfrom the Swedish lotteries that are coni-ducted by a single individual. Because ofthe fact that legislation in that country pre-vents any other form of sweep? being eon-ducted, the cost of administrati 'on has beencut down to just over one per~ cent. That,demonstrates that it is not fair to take thecost of conducting sweeps onl the basis ofconditions prevailing to-day. I am surethat we shall hie able to reduce costs tre-miendously. In answer to those who talkabout sweeps being immoral, sinful and sooil I believe that that may have been theimpression in the minds of mnany peoplesome time ago. Onl the other hand, some-times, as the Leader of the Oppositionpointed out, charity covers a multitude ofsins. I believe I could justify this sin, iJit he such, on the ground of the assistancerendered to our institutions.

Hon. P. Collier: Do not associate me withthe moral and sinful side of the argumient.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: No,although the hon. memtber joined himself up-with that argument.

Honi. P. Collier: Not on thle grounds youhave stated.

The MINISTE'R FOR RAILWAYS:- N0o.but there has been such a conglomeration ofideas

Hon. P. Collier: And onl your side, too-church people supporting gambling.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Iknow that is so. I suggest that it is only a

section of the people who are opposed tothe proposal. Let me read what Sir ArthurStanley had to say. Exactly the same sortof controversy has been raging in GreatBritain for some considerable time. Here iswhat lie said-

Suppose that a hiospit-dl in a poor districturgently nieeds a new maternity block cost-ing, sa, 2f%,Q0-

In that respect, as a result of the sweeps,the Government were able to build a matern-itv ward ait the K-ing Edward Hospital thatcould not have been constructed otherwise--

T]here is no local benevolent mnillioaaire,and tile money tan only be raised by verysmall subscriptions from people in the dis-trict, wlho are already with] difficulty findingthe wherewithal to miaintain the existing hos-pital. The British Hospitals Associationcoincs along with an offer of the £20,000 re-quired, which mneny has admiittedly beea re-ceived by it froin the proceeds of a sweep-stake. Does Sir Louis maintain that the gov-ernors of tile hospital would be acting in thebest interests of the commoitnity in refusingthat money, having regard to the fact thatthey are, so to speak, thc trustees of the hos-pital treatment and welfare of the districtwhich they' serve? Surely the need of thesufferers should be the deciding factor andnot the scruples of any individual governor?

Hon. P. Collier: That is only the opinionof one man.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: .Iknow it is.

Hon. P. Collier: He is not almighty.The 1FIN1STER FOR RAILWAYS:

After all, the opinion expressed by theLeader of the Opposition was only theopinion of one man.

Hon. P. Collier: His opinion hs not worthany more than mine.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: rknow that.

Hon. P. Collier: Not a bit more.The ]MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Not

any more.Hon. P. Collier: Not any mnore.The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: I

ain adm~itting that. Every person's opinionis entitled to respect.

Hon. P. Collier: I am just as good asStanley.

The 'MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ifyou wish for my personal opinion, I sayy-our opinion is worth much more, hut thatis only my personal opinion. It is only evi-dence of what I have been trying to claimall along. It is a question of trying by someimethod to get control of something which I

25W

[15 DEuannnF, 1932.] 2641

ay has definitelv growl] into an evil. Wewant to prevent it from growing into a big-ger evil.

H-on. P. Coil ier: It has grown into all evilhy permission of the Government.

The MINISTERI FOR RAILWAYS: Ithas gone on over the years. The hon. mem-ber says, 'What does it matter!" The factsare exactly the same as they have been foryears.

Hlon. P. Collier: You should cope with theevil.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ihave with Inc a history of this gambling forthe past 17 years, when the bon. memberraised his voice against permitting it to con-tinuc. That is w~hen Air. Drew framed hisIirst regulation which restricted gambling, toat certain extent. It grew a little and thenhall a set back and then it grew again.White City was stopped by the hon. mem-b~er and then re-opened by him.

Honl. P. Collier: No.The MiNISTER FOR RAILWAYS:

tHousey-housey was stopped by the hon.member's Goverinent and allowed again bythe hon. member's Government.

Hon. P. Collier: No.The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:

Yes. It was. I have the history in front ofme.

Hfon. P. Collier: White City was startedby the (iovernness of whbich you were amember.

The I)E'LUTY SPEAKERl: Order!The MUNISTER FOR RAILWAYS:

'rho whole trouble, as I say, and as the hon.member himself-

Hon. P. Collier: I know the history ofWhite City.

The M]INISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ialoi trying to forget it.

lion. P. Collier: I think you had better.Iknow it.The MIN[STER FOR RAILWAYS: I

am not trying to forget it from the pointof view that 1 an ashamed of anything inconnection with it.

Hon, P. Collier: You say I stopped itand then started it again. You started it.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!The 'MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:

Let me tell the hon. member that as a matterof fact White City was re-opened after itwas first stopped by him.

H-on. P. Collier: And it was finally stop-ped before we went out of office.

[94]

The MiNISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Iknow it was, and I said so; but even afterit was closed in Perth, a White City of asimilar kind was conducted on the goldfields.

Honm. 1'. Collier: It Awas a 'cry smallthling

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:Comparatively speaking, it was, but that islIt'v the wayv. I want the Bill to go into Coin-mnittee. I wanit the assistance of the good,

sound1( sen., of this H-ouse to shape the Billiii such a way ats will citable us to controlgambling in this State. Let us have sweepsthat will enable people to have their littleflutter, ats mentioned by the Leader of theOpposition; but in order to prevent gamb-ling from g-rowing until it becomes an evilin our- midst, let us restrict the sending ofmoney oat of the State that ought to be kepthere for ourx own charities. It should not begtoing to the other States to assisttheir charities when our own charities arein sore need. I think we can achieve whatI am aimaing at if we sit down and thinkhard about it. I have no hard and Lastideas about the matter. I do not thinkthat what is known as a State lottery isthe most desirable method. I think weought to appoint someone whom we canhold personally responsible for his con-duct. We can do so by this method. The'teasure provides for pun mishmnt for of-fences. Everyone on the board, includingI he auditors, follies undtfer the supervisiontof the police. E~ven if a public servant isappointed at at high salary, and is maderesponsible to a Minister, the Ministerhimself would carry the responsibility ofthe conduct of a sweep controlled by theboard. A penalty' is provided for misde-mcanotirs committed by members of the

hoard, but the Minister will-lie very 'ifre-Iluently does-protect at public servant unl-der hi m if that servant mtakes a mistake,while at the same time correcting him forsnaking the miistake. Differences of opinionmay fairly exist between its all, but whatLsay is that the Bill will afford us an op-

portunity of restricting gambling of thekind wh ich is now being carried on. Wemay have differences of opinion about athreepenny or a sitpenny bet, or a three-penny or sixpenny crossword puzzle, butif we remedy the conditions tinder whtichthey are operating, they will soon go outof e-i~tenee. ft is the free run they have,the methods by which they arc conducted,

2542 [ASSEMBLY.]

that enaable them to exit i,, row aisthey do. .1 have no objection to a mantaking a glass of liquor, although I do nottake one myself. 1 do not mind a mantaking tickets in a sweep. . do not takemany myself. I have not had a crosswordpu zzle ticket yet.

Mr. Panton: See what you have missed.The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: .1

(Io riot gamtble to any extent. I nlevel bletonl a horse race. Thiat is no reason, how-ever, why .1 should declare it to he an eviland seek to prevent anybody else fromdoing it. But I amu charged, ats at publicmnan and a 'Minister (ii the Crown, wviththe responsibility of checking what mightbecome a very serious evil in our midst.

LIon. P. Collier: And you have mlost ef-fectivelyv ehiecked it in the last 1.2 monthsor so!

The MINISTER }'OR RAILWAYS: I(1o not sug-gest we have, hut it is becauseof the lack of legislation. I. ask the hion.ininber if it wvould he desirable for meto say that I should permit a sweep thatI fa voured an d nsed the law' against some-body else who eonucted another sweep.

Ron. P. Collier: That is just what youdid do.

The 2oL1NISTER FOR RAIWAYS: No.W\e did Ilothilig of' the sort.

flon. P. Collier: Yes. You did.Thle MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ap-

plieations submitted to me for a number(it sweeps were refused, but applicationsfor a number of other sweeps were granted.They wvere small sweeps, hut in each casethey' were dealt with onr their merits; andthe mecrits have been the purpose for whichthre p)rofit% were to be used,. antd that lpurposehas1 alw I vOs been along the linie of U vqlueS-lionable chaity.

I-on). P. Collier: So you have controlledgambling.

'fhe IMNSTER FOR RAILW'AYS:Only to a slight extent. All the otherforms of gambling that exist at the tio-Pirenti and are carried on in our midst andcompelling the expenditure of large sumsof money that ought to be going to ourcharritable institutions ought not to be con-tinued.

Hon. P. Collier: What is that?The MfLNTSTER FOR RAILWAYS: The

lion, member knows what I am referrto. I say newspaper crossword puzzlesshould not be continued.

Hon. 1P. Collier: Whly not stop them?9The MlI NIST ER FOR RAILWAYS: Are

they. of any advantage to anybody exceptthe ne wspa pers 1

non. 1. Collier: You have the power tostop them.

Tlhe MI NISTER FOR RAILWAYS:That is questioncable.

lion. 1'. (oilier: There is no doubt albotit.

'flip MINIST R Foil. RAILWAYS: Thelion. member suggests we have the powerto stop them. Wb have dealt with thismnatter and I know hlow far we can go.

Hon. P. Collier: Y'ou have niot tested it.The MI1NISTER FOR RAILWAYS:

That is iny pesonali op~inion. I. illrelyanswer thle Lender of. the Op~positiontolthat point by saying this is not a one-niallGoverrnment. He will probably recollectthat lie matde the same excuse himself forniot having introduced a Bill proposed' bya member of his Cabinet.

Hon. 1'. Collier: I apologise.The MINISTER FOR RAltsWAYS:

That being thwecase, we wiill pass 1,11.Mr. ['anton: Will you give us any idea

whether this Bill, if carried, w'ill preventnewspaper puzzles?

the MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Isay most definitely and distinctly that unlesssome amendment is mnade in Committee,crossword puzzles cannot be conducted n-der the Bill. That is definite enoughI. AsI have said preyviou's] y I do not wvial thleBill to he treated as a party measure. fna ma tter of. this in d, we should( start onlat prolper foundation and build onl thatfoundation something that will be in thleinterests of the comamunity generally. Ihave not beens afraid to express my owvn opin-on inn the matter. WVill the l10on. minem-her suggest that it is a desirable thing tointroduce a. Btill of this nature when oneknows it will bring a lhornet 's nest about[lie head of the muan who introduces it?I ceartainly am not one to go out looking-for troule. T don't want it.

Hon. P. Collier: You have always beena courageous man.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Itis riot a niatter of courage. It is a ques-tion of the duty devolving upon me. I haveintroduced a measure that embodies MY6w,1 opinions. If the House does not agreewith themn, I shall not complain. Memberscan make what amendments they like, so

[15 DEsaMasa, 1.932.] 2543

lr'ag as we get a Bill that wvill gixv uts effec-tive control. and at [lie ,;lie little give iIS,:111 opport units- to keep ii, the Stt money,all1 too smich of which i, being' senlt outof tile Stlate, and to keep it t, purposesfor which it is needledl ninelY, to assistour charitable institution.

Que-stioni put, anti a division taken withflit following resuflt:-

Ayves .. .. . . 21Noes .. . .17

MdjoritY for

!r.

Mr.M1 r.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.

It:,raurd

churchCarbo yCunninghamDoneyFerguseonKeenanKeln neallyLatham,LindsayH. W. MannMeLarty

11r. AngeloMr. CollierAir. CoverleYMr. GriffitheAir. HegneyMiss HolnianMr. JohnsonMr. J. I. Monn.Nr. Marshall

AYIES.Mr. DavyMr. Parker

AtI

SirMr.M1 r.M r.Mr.Mr.Mr.M1r.rMr.MrI.Mr.Mr.

NOES.Mr.It r.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mri.Mr.Mr.

lames Mitchell

Pat riek[,leaseSampsonScaddasiSleeniaoX. H. SthThornWell,WithersNorth

(TeIJ

MlcCallumlNulsenPanionF. C. L. SmithJ, Mf. SmithWe istroughWilleoctWilson

PAIRS.

Noes.Mr. [amendMr. Raphael

Question thus passed.

Bill read a second time.

it Commnittee.

11r. Angelo in the Chair; M1inister forVailivays in charge of the Bill.

Clause 1-agreed to.

Clause 2-Definitions:

Mr. IIANTOX: I move anl amendment--

'rhat paragra ph (a) he struck ot.

That paragraph includes in the definition of"Chlaritable purposes" any public hospital illthe State as defined in Section 2 of the Hos-pitals Act, 1927, which covers practically allthe hospitals for which the hospital tax iimposed. If lotteries are conducted for th'-benefit of charitable institutions, why shouldany of the proceeds be allotted to hospitalsfor which the people are already paying aspecial tax! I am afraid that ii the para-

gin ph is retained, the hulk of thle moneywill be used for hospital purposes. Bothinside and outside Parliament, the gr'eatargument in favour of the Bill has beer,[lint it was necessary to assist charitable in-stitutions. Tlhe 2ii lster cannot complainthat the hospital tax is not achieving its ob-ject. I venture to say that it will producemore than enough to finance tile hospitalsteliciently. I am rather suspicious of Min-isters for Health. Representatives of charit-able organisations some years ago waited onthe then Prime Minister, Mr. Bruce, whoalie was returning from England, with. aview to getting thme Federal Government torelinquish the amiusements tax ina order thatit 'nighit he utilised for charitable purposes.The then Minister for Health, the memberfor Hannans, offered to assist uts. The Fed-

eal authori ties i-clinqui shed the amuse-mien ts tax onl tickets upl to 2s. 6d. in price.bnt the Minister for Health proimptly intro-duceed :I Bill and grabbed the lot for thehospitals. [ do not want a repetition ofthat. I am prepared to agree to free wardsand even tile Children's Hospital beneffiting,]lit not the public hosp)itals, for which 11ehave a sp~ecial tax.

Mr. H. AV. Ran ow about the KingEd waid Hosp)itl?

Mir. PAN'ON: T hat will be elig~ible for,op port under this Bill, if it dloes not comeurnder the Act of 1.927.

Air. KENNEAIJX: If tile paragraph isstruck out it will defeat the object of themNover- Thie only , other reference to hospi-ta4ls is to any free waurd at any' private hols-pital in the State. What the holf. memberdies~l is that ny publi)1c hospital whichdoes iiot collie within the provisions of the1927 Act shall be assisted out of moneysraised under this Bill.

Mr. pantori I will wi thdlraw liy amend-mnent.

Amnendmnent, iiy leave, withdrawn.

Mr. KENNEALLY: I ',ove anl amendl-inent-

Thai~t in laragrapli (:i) after the word'State'' the words "o thli(r than'' be in-

serted.

The M1INISTER FOR LANDS: Onl be-halt of the hospital comititees I hope theamendment will not bie ag-reed to. The as--nistaiee that bas been rendered by the artunion committee with respeet to X-ray plant,electric light plant, shaidowless, lig-hts, andadditions and improvements to buildings

2544 [ASSEMBLY.]

conidd have been givei froint the hospitalfild. If thle paiagliiiiphI is amenndecl inl th i,way country hospitals wvill not receive thttbenefits they are getting- to-day. [Rad it notbecen for the assistsnee that has been reln-tiered, tite work at the King Edward Mater-nil.% Hosjpital could not have been gone onlwith. It is proposed] also to spend £:3,000oin the F'remantle hospital. 'The assistancethat is given to hospitals out of the fundraised by this Bill will be limited to neces-sitous eases.

Mr. Panton: The hospitals wvill get thelot.

The MINISTER FORl LANDS: Nothingof the kind.

Hon. IV. 1). JOHINSOIN: The paragraphshouldt not he altered. It was in regard toaI matter or this kind (the State LotteriesBill) that the Minister for Railways used"I'lansard" of 1924 agaminst mie onl the secondreading. I was shown as havingl paired withthe lpresenlt Mlinister for Lands. Later oinit, the debate onl the Bill I spoke on thequestion, and prefaced mny remairks by say-ing that if we wecre g-oing to raise moneyliv this means we itijist le careful how wedistributed it. The Minister for Railwayssuccessfully conveyed thle idea that I hadsupported something, I have been ajipose~lto all my lire. He caught me on the spurof the moment, and unwittingly perhapsmisrepresented the position.

Thle Minister for Railways: I object tothat.

Hion. W1. 1). JOHNSON: I ask the I~fin-istet to furl) to page 1190 of "Hansard,"1924.

The Minister for Lands: But you didspeak.

Eon. W. 0). JOHNSON: Yes.The CHTAiRMAN: I cannot allow these

pers-onial explnations.Hon. W. 1). JOl-INSON: I want to put

the Minister right. It xvil Il e seen onl page1190 of "lansarid'' that on the question oftthle distrilbttion f said that if we were g-oito 1raiseo ne vl1)bN those means wec should saydefinitely that it should ble used for those2institutions, for the finances or! which theGovernment were responsible. I do notwaint to he nisrepreseinted again.

The Mtinister for lRailways : You were notiircjireseiited. Both of 3011 p~aired Onl the

Bill.Hon. AV. 0). JOHNS8ON: I did not. I was

not here anl, as the holl. metahier knoiN,,thle Government use anl absent member to

pair hiijt again~.t ainolher iiieiber %x ho ialso absent. Them tinibe ;or Umanis kiwwv,I was tf'lIwed to, his Bill and have alxva&oplposed~ anl.\ ',ar11 lotii)4l. When 1 I11in at the Commnit tee stage I used the wvord-that appvcai onl page, 11901 of "Hfansard.' Iwill support the Bill as p~rinted rather thanthe amndnment.

ion. S. W. MJN SIE: I believe what tl~imember for Leederville desires is that anyhospital etitlted to a share of the hiospitalIfund tax should not comle under thle benefitsof these lotteries. If we incelude the a niend-moeat of ( lie memiber for East Perth, w~hatwill happen is, tha t the only hospital whichcould get any benefit will gt the benefit justthe sam Incunder pairagraIIph (b). The memberfor Leedeivil Ic was a nxious abtout the Chi I-cdrienis Hosp)italI. There is no doubt that hos-pita I cotes uitder the ]-ospi talIs Acet, bitt thtlhon. member saidl it does not comle littd1the Hospitals Flund Act. Outside the privatehtospitals , the onlY 1hospital not included i,St. John) of God.

AIr. 11. IV. Mat:1,,,: Parag ,raph (b) isnivait to 111,1 43, to that.

Hlon S. W. 2[UNSI E: Yes, a,[ so, too,iii the li o51itals Act.

Mr. PJANT ( N: [it tilhe 11 os1 it,.i Is '1 aAct 'hospital aitliojity'' mneat's a b( aid qaieominmittee or in namelinut of a Puic iehos-pita I, and( includes the Minister while incontrol ofh a public hospital under the pro-visions of Section 7 of'I the ilospi takI Act.1927. 'ficit. Section 7 priovi(Ies 'that theMlinister shall control all' public hospitalfor w iicli ticre is not for tlte ti oe beingany diil1Y tonstituted boaid, and while hie isvoitteoll i g such hospital he shaqll ble deemnedto lie the boa mdl. Fromi thait it is obviousthait Seetion 7, to which time hospital fundapplies, is wyhere n ])oarid i (-onstituted under

thie Mfinister. The Children's Hospital Boardal-c not constituted under the Minister. Thevget at sutbsidy, but only. at thle willI of t itedepaisrtiment, and thle ' ire not entitled to thetax collected under the Act. The Bill1 pro-%ides for Section 2, no whyI ment Section 7

The MINISTER ["OR RAIILWAYSI ask the hon. menmet inot to p ross ItisaiiieIndinoit. This does tot comupel thmeboarid to pay any if if,( ieft i is to anthospital, hat it does pernmit them to doit if at all.\ timie in ;an emiergency ahosp ital requiires sonic of the funds. Thenun der this seetion a granat con Id be macdeto the hospital. In the conduct of the

J15 DECEMBER, 1932.]25;

lotteries there %-ill Ilie frI(-I mis to Ile dis,-trrhltedl. NNlhave )rotijdetl li-rltitier tlarl,N-tar plant aunit e.Xtelli,-ol Of luildinvfromt that soaire. I beclieve it was by thatmeans that the extensions at thle K<iul" Ed-war.ld Men juil fIospiitaI were evtrtiedl out.

I a !Icl o.m

Ir. PAN 'ri sN: I agree withI wiat theMinister state-, proivided the H-ill is angre1lo ili its irenetit forta. A big effort will hmade to substi tutL a 'State lottery, for the'proposed Cotnannksion. Should that liea''reell to, the Mtinister's argument will fallto the ground Io at great extent. It woldlie hotter ifI a proper schedule aippeaired inltle Bill inrstead of Subela use 2. There arenot so manyv charitable i nstitut ions, in West-lie1 Australiai that tithe scheduale couild not leframed and power vested in the Governor-in-Council to adid to their number at alrvltme. If a1 State lot terv shoul hile decidedupon, the Minister for Health will have it

Iipull tover the flunds available.The Minis~ter for Health: You know that

would not itillueatee hint.Mr. PANTON: It might, and I would

not blamne hinm.

A tetiditiett put arid ntegatived.

3lrIt. PANXTON : T moNe an inametjlnentt- -

nhat pariagraipht (d) lie, strut-h out.

I would] like to see. in lin-t )I' the paurag ,rapht.which refers generally tol institutions, dealingwvith the deaf, dum~b and bl1inad, speet tiereference to thne Wehstern Australian lnstitil-tion for the Blind, thle Braille Society arid1the Western And ra han Deaf and DumbInstitution. At presetit there are two in-stitutions that care for the bli n. The Ili-stitute for the Blind so far has received£:4,200 ajid the Braille Society £150 only.The society received the last £.50 on conl-dition that they raised another E100.

Mr. H. W. AMnn: Was, there not anit iitantttdi ing that the Braille Soiwtv wouldget 40 per cent. ?

Air. PANTON: There was nto such under-standing'. Sire I -sl)oIW onl the second reatd-inLx of the Bill, [ have bteen accused itf heintri air-. it hats beeni suggpested that the board

in control of the s-weeps did not know. Ihave here (t)Ire~l)0?dlele siied in my ll.%sel fanid by- the secretary of thle Braille Societyin wic h we pointed out time after timeto the Board oIf Control the unfairness of

the treatment metedi out to the Braille Soci-ety. If the paragraph ble left in the Billin its present formn, the Braille Society marNtont ii ue in that position.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: 1nope the Committee will niot accept theamiendinent. If the paragraph be left as ita ppear in tile Bill, it will cover all threeinstitutions and they canl be dealt with separ -,ntek-,. if litter on the member for Leeder-Vi lie nmoves ant amendment to secure a cer-fitn p~ercentage for the Braille Society, Ishall understand his attitude. If he agreesto leave the paragraph as it is, then eachinstitution will hle delest with separately.

Mr. Paniton: That is what appeared iiithe ad vertisemnit, and we did not get ahot).

'Ihe 'MINISTER FOR.-RAILWAYS: Itwould be infinitely ]letter to leave the para-

I a it i.s an nlaIter onl a request couldIle inode for tile Braille Society to be treatedah[iart fr-ont thel Is4tiute for tile Blind.

Mr. KENNEALLY: The definition is widecimougli1 to etlibhiace the Braille Societv. Ido0 not wvant to go inito the differences- thatexist hetwieent tile two organ izations 'whicltare caring for tlie blind. All we have todo is to ask ourselves it the Braille Societyis caring for tine blind. We undoubtedlyhavec to antswer '"yes" to that question.

Mr. CORI3OY: If the miember for Leeder-Ville insists Upon1 h]is atnettlnt, lie will de-f-at his ownt case. The clause as it standsis vu-ale of a inuch wider iriterpretation.If tile i list itul ioutS are ma tied, then ques-ti1 insWill arise later ais to whether some"ther il'iliin should hle assisted,

Mr. PANXTON : )Iemabers %%-ho have spokenOnt tile matter do not appear to understandtile position. They' do not realise that 190per cent, of the people of the State are ln-a 'i-are that two societies are wvorkinrig for thlehlind. In aitny case. whi- shtoumld not thcI eaf atnd Dutni) Soc-iet -. thle Blind utI-title amnd the Braille Sorietv hie epa~rated?

The Minister for Railwayvs : ArIe y-on sug-gestingl thalt becnause the% at-e coupled to-gether in the Bill for thel purpPose of inter-mretation, thely -ould lie couipled for tile litr.Iliose of ittvep

M~r. I'.\NTON : Ye. I t in ii::olt to gtthe three institutiotisepa~trated. 1Thec ar,el)arutted onl the Estimates.

Mr. COR BOV: Can auvhody gay that itlive years ther mnav '-iot 1b, atother insti-tutioni earing for the blindl t1 -Intch a case,

V545

2546 [ASSEMBLY.]

tite R i woul hav I we to be amended to bring[hatI institution under it.

lion,. W. 1). Johnson: There may be suchan institution on the goldfields.

Amendment Putt alid negatived.

M-\r. SAMfPSON\: I move an amendment-

'I'hat the folllwiing para graph be inserted:-t(g) An ' itienta a ftcr-ea t work, together

with I he care of the feeble-minded."

This wyork is being carricd on by a specialconmmittee, of which Mrs. Casson is the see-retary.

Mrf. Fr. W. Miani: That committee has£600 onl lived deposit.

Mr. SAMfPSO.N: The committee has hadin, loi,,d for some time the establishment ofat garden where chronic, but harmless,patients canl work. I hope members willconsider the amendment on its merits.

Tile MTINIS'rER FOR RAILWAYS: Tile,amendment is not necessary. Paragraph(1t) wakes provision, siibjet to the linlita-tions imposed by Clause 19, for any objectwhich in the opinion of the Miinister may befairly classed as chairitable. That wouldentitle the committee to receive giants lip to£100 from each sweep.

Mr. SAMPSON: if that is so there is nonleed for any of the paragraphs precedingrparagraph (8), because all the institutionsmentioned are charitable institutions.

The MINIST ER FOR RAILWAYS: Themember for Swiln does 'lot know whait 11liis talking about. The subject of his amend-wient is a committee, not an institution. Thlecommittee have £600 on fixed deposit, whiluother charitable institutions are almost oilthe point of closing down through lack offunds. Because we would not allow thosePeople to run a sweep, they have been ashostileas possible.

Amendment put and negatived.

Mr. PANTON: I know of no organisationiother than the Ugly Men's Association thatwvould come under paragraph (g), whichreads-

Any body incorporatedl under the laws ofth,,. State which distributes relief to sick, toinfirmu, and to indigent pecrsons; Provided that

the Minmister is satisfied that the activities ofvtunh body, extend substantially throughout the"l ate.

There is no reason to camouflage the Ugly'Men's Association in that way. It is a well-

knwn institiution ftiat is loiu g good work. Iinouce all amendment-

That parangraph (g) be struck out with a1view to inserting ''the Ugly 'Men's Assoeja-lion)'

f consider there should be a schedule of in-stitutions deserving of assistance. I give allcredlit to the Ugly Men's Association, butrelief committees have in the last twvo yearsundertaken much of the work formerly doneby the Ugy Mlen. 'there are .32 relief coni-

nittees in [lie metropolitan area, and theyarec now weik img un der a 'otnn i itte kn'ownas the Metropolitan Unemployed Relief'Committee. They, too, are deserving of'assistance. Why include one and not theother?

Thme 21IN ISTER FORII RAILWAYSThere is, 11o en oilage about it. The hon.mtember knew that [ihe paragraph appliedto the t'giy Men's Association. Paragraph(c) provide., for the relief of formersoldiers, sailors or nurses, but the hon. mem-her did not object to that as camouflagingthe R.S.L. The wording of paragraph (g)was inserted in order to give a broad in-terpretation. I suggest that the proviso,,ight be struck out.

Mr". Pa utonl : .1 ont lv wanted to have thelutne of the Ugly Meni's Association insertedhevamise the)' are entitled to it.

Thle MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:'Plic do not want it inserted, and I do norsee wh v it should he. '[le paragraph willrover the Ugly Men's Association and anyother organisatlion.

Mr. l(ENNEAI,Y): I hope the paragraphwvill be retained because it wilt embrace theLgldv Aten's Association ats well as anvother organiisatiomi that may come into ex-istence amid that ought to be provided for.

Mr. CORBOY: I can see no necessity forthis paragraph in view of the wording ofthe following paragraph.

The iMinister for Railways: That refersto the limitation of £100.

Mr. CORBOY: Why not say that themmoney may be given to any purpose theMinister may class as a charitable one?

Amendment put anid negatived.

Arr. SLEEMAN: I should like to addafter the word "persons" in paragraph (g)the words "including the Infant Health As-sociation."

The Minister for Railways: That wouldbea covered by the last paragraph.

115 D)ECEMBER, 1932.]154

The CHAIRMAN: A. the last amendmentwas negatived, it means that the jparagraphStands. I could not therefore accept suchan amendment.

Mr. Corhoy: Something should be doneto take the proviso out of that paragraph.

Mr. SLEEMNAN: I move an amendment-

That a new paragraph be inserted, to standais paraqgraph (h) as tollows:-''The ifantHealth Association of WA."'

The MNINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Wehave not so far mentioned any institutionparticularly, but have provided an interpre-tation that will cover them all. 1 would nothave minded so much if this organisationcould have been included in paragraph (g),but I cannot accept it now.

Mr. Corhoy: If this association is speci-ally mentioned, it wvili be an indication tothe controlling body that it has been pickedout for preferential treatment.

The CHAIRAN.: Perhaps the bion. mem,her could word the paragraph to read "Anyinstitution in Western Australia for the pre-Eervation of infant health."

M1r. Sleernan: That would not suit me.Mr. Ken neall'y:- The paragraph should not

be altered, hut later on we could increasethe grants off £100 to £250.

The -MINISTER FO. RAILWAYS: Iappeal to the hoii. meinber to frame theparagraph in such a way as to cover the in-stitution lie wishes to include, without spedi-fically mentioning, it.I.cantgreoteamnendment, .eintAret h

Mr. SLL'EMAN: [ said I wanted thethird line in paragraph (g), and the meam-bet for Leederville said he wanted to strikeit out altogether. If I were out of order,the Chairman should have put nie right.

The CHAiRM1AN: I did not know whatthe hon. member was asking.

Mr. SLEEMA-N: I want to see theamneinment go in here, instead of leavingit until we reach Clause 19. If the Alin-ister can wrap it up in any suitable wayI will accept his suggestion.

Aniendinent put and a division tbkenwith the following result:

AyesN-\oes -

Majority aeainst -

924

.. 15

M1r. HegneyMis iomanMr. MunsleMir' i-anionMr. SleeDa

M r. BarnardMr. BrownAtr. ChurchMr, CorbayM r. DoneyM r. FergusonMr. GriffithsM r. JohnsonMr, KennenilyMr. Lindsay

Mr. H-. Wi. MkannM r. J. 1. M1ann

AYES,M1r, F. C. L. SmithMr. WansbrcughM r. Withers

MWion(Teller.)

Mr, M'2eLattyMr. N111iungtonSir James MitchellMlr. NulseaMr. Patrick-Mr, PieaseN1r. ScaddanMr. J1. H. SmithM r. J. M4. SmithMr. WellsM r. WilicoekMr. North

(Teller.)

Amneinment thus negatived.

The MITNISTER FOR R.AILWVAYS: Ido not want the Committee to imagine bythat vote that we are not desirous of mak-ing- provision for money to be made avail-able to the infant health centre. I am

gigto move to report progress in orderthat I might have an amendment draftedto meet the wishes of the hon. member.

Progress reported.

BILLS (2-RBTURNED.

1,. Mine Workers' Relief.Withoult amendmnent.

2. Reserves.

Wihn11 angiemirinent.

BILL-MINING ACT AMENDMENT(No. 2.)

R~eceiv-ed from the Council and read afirst ti mime.

BILL-BULK HANDLING.

Inm wileRceumied fromn the 8th December: 11r,

Richard '-on in the Chair: the -Minister forWorks in charge of the Bill.

The CHAIRMIAN: Progress was reportedon Clause .3, to which the member for SouthFremantle had moved an amendment tostrike out "excluisive" in line 1 of paragraphN.Y

11r. ST.EEMAN: f move-

That progress be reported.

2547

2545 [COUNCIL.]

Motion put, and a division taken With thefollowing result:-

Ayes . .. . .. 19Notes . .. . .. 17

Majority against . .. 2

Aria.Mr. Brown Mr. PantonMr: Collier Mr. PatrickMr. Hegney Mr. PiesseMiss Hnlman Mr. sleemeeMr. Johnson M r. P, C. L. SmithMr. Kenneally Mr. WansbrougbMr. Marshall Mr. WilsonMr. McCallum IMr. WithersMr. Millington Mr. CorboyMr. Nuisen DIC%

ltegieaive cOUii,Friday 16th December, 1932.

Question: North-West dteveiopmentLeave of absence .. .. .. .. ..Motions: 'Golden Eagle' nugget

State Forests revocation ........... ...Bill0 Secession Referendun, isR.................Lend end Income Tax Assessment Act Amend-

meat (No. 13, 3iL., passed.............Land and Income Tax Assessment Act Amend

meet (No. 2), 2R., Corn..............Timber Workers 2a................ ...Electoral Act Amnendment, 2n., etc,....Farmers' Debts Adjustment, Act Amendment,

In., 2R,Metropolitan Whole Milk, In., 21..........

Mr. AngeloMr. BarnardMr. ChurchMr. DonerMr, FergusonN1r. GrIffitbsMr. LathamMr. LindsyMr. 4. 1. Mann

Nir. RspbselMr. CoverleyMr. 1,amond

NOES.

IMr. MeLartyISir James MitchellIMr. ScaddanIMr. J. H. Smith

Mr. J. M. SmithMr. WholsMr. ThonMr. Wot

(Taller.)

lP~ns.

Mr.Mr.Mr,

NOS,PasrkerSampsonDavy

Motion thus passed.

Progress reported.

BILL--FARMERS' DEBTS ADJUST-MENT ACT AMENDMENT.

Crder of the Day read for the resumptionof the debate from the previous day% on theSecond reading.

Question put and passed.

Bill read a second time.

In Committee,

B3ill passed through Committee withoutdebate, reported without amendment, and thereport adopted.

Third Reading.

Read a third time, and transmnitted to theCouncil.

Housye adjourned at 2.3 ami (Friday)0

The PRESIDENT took the Chair at 4.30p.m., and read prayers.

QUESTION-NORTH-WESTDEVELOPMENT.

Hon. J. It MACFARLANE (for Hons.E. H. Harris) asked the Chief Secretary:Will he lay on the Table the report of theconlilnuttee recently appoinited by the Gov-ernmsent relating to the development of theNorth-West?

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: Yes.

LEAVE Or ABSENCE.

On motion by Hon. J. Cornell leave ofabsence granted to Hon. C. 13. Williams(South) for six consecutive sittings onl theground of twgenDt private business.

MOTION-' GOLDEN EAGLE"NUGGET.

HON. G. W. MILES (North)l (43-4]: 1

That iii tile o1Ain10n Of this House, nlOtiihstaninrg anlythling contained ini Section 4 (3)of the Financial Agreement Act, 1929, theCovernm'lent should transfer the purchase priceOf the ''Golden Eagle'' nugget, £5,438 4s. 2d.,to the eretlit of loan11 fundcs. is suggestedl by theAuditor General onl page 37 of his anneal re-port for 1.932.

In Submitting this motion I wish to explainthere is in it nothino hostile to the Govern-ment, I merely want the House to expressSn op~fion as to the method of keepingGovernment accouniE5 and I have selctedthis itemn as a means oF indicating to theGovernment that the miethod should be

PAGE254825482548254912551

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M6382566

2548